F---, Marry, Kill at the Movies: ‘The Housemaid,’ ‘Song Sung Blue,’ and ‘Anaconda’

27:08I guess this is like something that could happen. You know, I'm just kind of like, no, it's not well developed. It's just not, it just doesn't hit, you know? Like sometimes you make a choice in a story and the storyline just does not hit. And it just feels silly. And I was watching it and I was just like, this just feels atonal from the rest of the movie and it isn't like exciting or interesting. It doesn't really tell us anything. It's just a plot device. Right. I mean, it also just, it doesn't make a ton of sense. Like the punishment is first you're locked in an attic until you have to pull out a hundred hairs, which does seem painful, but like...

27:41You could do it? You know, if I had to, to then get out of the closet and get out of that house. Right. You know, but instead she doesn't. And which, you know, again, like I think, I don't want to make light of like domestic abuse and the situations and it like can be hard to leave. But the plot line of then suddenly she's just like in an asylum him because he's called the cops on her for something. It happens very fast. I thought confusingly told. Yes. The ways in which she endangered her child. None of it really. It's all very messy. And I haven't read the book. And I think that, you know, the book's bestseller.

28:19People really like that book. It just feels, I found the plotting to be really junky in the last 30 minutes of just like trying to move very quickly through like, here's why this happened. Right. And they're like, well, why did we spend 75 minutes building to this? Like, could this film have been 30 minutes shorter, perhaps? Certainly felt like it. Yes. There's a lot of like stewing in what is really going on here in the first half of this movie that I think actually wounds the big reveal because it feels like we've been waiting too long for it to be explained to us. Right. And then the other half of the reveal is so that to escape with her daughter, Amanda Seifert's character has hired Sidney Sweeney on purpose to replace her so that then she can get out of the house and be free.

29:05And so she is sacrificing Sidney Sweeney. But then her daughter, who is a character that is not at all developed, shows a moment of conscience. And it's like, don't we need to help her? The Sidney Sweeney houseman character. So they go back. And around the same time, we get the dual explication of Sidney Sweeney's character who went to prison for 10 years for murder because she discovered her college roommate being raped. Right. And she bashed the rapist over the head with some sort of blunt object. And killed him. And then for some reason, maybe out of shame, her roommate denied what had transpired, which then led to the imprisonment of her roommate, Sidney Sweeney.

29:53mm-hmm not saying it can't happen yeah but it was like so it's one of those things where it was just like these two women have done nothing wrong mm-hmm they have been completely victimized mm-hmm and this guy is an insane maniac right but only in these very small moments in which we see it again it happens but the way that the information is delivered and the characterization of these two people these two women is not very strong through the first hour of the movie we spend a lot of time being like why are they like that and not a lot of clarity. And then this rush to give it all away in the final stages of the movie, I think makes the movie feel pretty incoherent.

30:32Yes. And then the movie tries to like add on, you know, an avenging plot line for the Sidney Sweeney character where ultimately they do get rid of Brandon Sklenor. And I think again, it is technically Sidney Sweeney who delivers the fatal push. but Amanda Seifert is willing to take the fall. And then a woman cop is like, oh, it just so happens that my sister was the fiance that you mentioned once in narration like an hour ago and she never came back the same. So I'm not going to investigate this. And then the last scene is Sydney Sweeney going to interview for another housemaid job and it suggested that she was recommended to another woman who is like in a dangerous household and experiencing abuse.

31:25Yeah. And so it's like now she's the Avenger, which. The housemaid will kill again. Just big post-credits Marvel sequence energy to that scene. Where it was like, so this is her job now? To like become the housemaid for people so she can kill husbands? I don't know. Is that like empowering? What does that even mean? I don't know. And there is like a real strain in like women's entertainment and women's fiction right now, which this is adapted from. And Colleen Hoover is a part of this of like very dark situations that are sort of resolved. And like the woman in question is in danger and then find some sort of like peace or resolution or freedom or like there is some improvement.

32:07Yes. But it's it's not not what anyone would like write out for themselves. You know, like it's not really like a happy ending and it always feels like the the the work of fiction is like marinating and enjoying the abuse or the dark aspects of it a little bit more than you would want. I, I, I, I was tough on is this thing on, which is kind of like the flip side of the coin of this movie. Yeah, that's a movie about the challenge of modern relationships and how difficult it can be to kind of communicate and be in a partnership and still be your own person. I like that idea for that movie. I don't really think the way it explores it is very interesting to me.

32:46But I don't think that this trend is good either. Not that I have to be the arbiter of how we should portray relationships in movies, but this like, you know, you must meet the black magic with dark vengeance is like, I don't, I'm not, what does that say about where we are in terms of what stories are exciting to us? And kind of like, what is that manifesting about what's going on socially? I don't know. I'm not like catastrophizing it, but it's weird. It's discomforting. And it's like, I don't think that you or I want to see movies that are about that are just aspirational or like, here is how you should behave.

33:20And I think I at least get a little frustrated with this strain of criticism that it's like, well, that was a bad person or they made a bad decision. And thus, like, I can't like this movie because I'm not looking for, you know, like a morality play every time I go to the films. But it is weird that this is what is so appealing is just that is something. I mean, like in the end, the bad guy dies violently and the women have like been tortured, but I guess are setting out on new lives. So I guess that's good. But I would have preferred to just not have anyone be tortured. I mean, everyone's life has been destroyed.

33:59Yeah. The idea that this is like inspiring in some way is absurd. I don't know. I think if we accept it on its terms of it's camp fun, I can get on board with that. And I don't want to ruin people's enjoyment of the movie. And definitely, I was waiting and waiting and waiting to find out what was going to happen. So I was engaged in the movie. I can't pretend like I wasn't engaged. I kept trying to guess. I was like, is this schizophrenia? Is there something else going on? I thought there were two Amanda Seyfrieds. I did also wonder if there was something. There's a room in the attic that's played very dramatically.

34:33and so I was like is this gonna be a Jane Eyre thing where there's like another crazy one in the attic but she gets out sometime oh both of those would have been interesting you know or two Amanda Seiferts like same woman split personality like a Raising Cain situation no or just like twins I thought that they twins yeah all three would have been interesting yeah we didn't get that okay Long Island man I just have to say that this soundtrack just absolutely made me die laughing multiple times I did catch this since you've been gone drop yeah I'm not sure I definitely caught Blue Bayou. Absolutely.

35:06Barry Lyndon plays a small but important role in this film. Thank you. I forgot. I mean, I guess that this movie is like also like weird cineboys should be taken down a peg. I guess. I don't know. I'm not sure what that take was. In what world is Brandon Sklenar really into Barry Lyndon? The two pop cultural artifacts that Brandon Sklenar's character are passionate about according to the Housemaid. It's Barry Lyndon and classic episodes of Family Feud. and no no I'm sorry there's another one and then there's like a musical that's a hit that is like maybe like Hamilton but it's not it's just sort of implied that it's like Hamilton and it's hard to get tickets to this is a fake movie there's a Renee Rap drop in this that I laughed really hard at I think it's like during their sex scene and then and then there was the like one of the bad Taylor Swift songs over the credits oh an actual Taylor Swift song yeah didn't clock that not aware of that I did ask you what are movies for female audiences right now it's not ideal what are they tell us what you wrote down so I wrote down the theatrical releases that have worked that reflect what people are going to the film to the cinema to see and these are on varying scales of success right but Wicked for Good Materialists Regretting You and Freakier Friday yes So that's your IP.

36:34That's your like indie fake out rom-com. That's your Colleen Hoover adaptation. And that's your nostalgia sequel play. So in some ways, they're the same things that are working for men, but, you know, just with girls in them instead. But then I, the thing that's really working and then I just wrote down like 4 ,000 streaming movies. Okay? Because back in action, you're cordially invited, kind of pregnant, another simple favor. The Woman in Cabin 10, which I did watch half of. I have no self-respect. That's the Ruth Ware adaptation starring Keira Knightley. Yes. I watched the first hour as well and then Eileen continued watching it.

37:13Yeah. And she was not a fan but was so glad that she watched it. Okay. Which is the inverse of how I felt. No. I didn't feel anything good about it. did not even need to stick around for the twist. I was like Keira Knightley and Guy Pearce like on a cruise ship. Like surely I can find something. On paper, sure. No. And then I wrote down like all the holiday bullshit, which is just, it's like not my bag, you know? Including Oh What Fun and their wallpaper. That stars Michelle Pfeiffer and is directed by Michael Showalter. And I didn't think it was very good. But you know, they've put all of our movies about people navigating relationships, aging and home design onto streaming and then they spend less money on all of it and most people just watch them there and they'll go to the theaters and it's depressing when Amanda Seyfried was on the pod she zoomed in during COVID from a barn I hope this movie buys her another barn yeah she did a great architectural digest tour of her New York apartment a lot of ingenious storage solutions there exciting yeah I also really liked her her Vogue Get Ready With Me so she's good at internet content and I hope that she gets to keep doing as much as she wants.

38:24She gave an interview recently where she said she wasn't allowed to do Botox for Ann Lee, and that was a major sacrifice, but now she's back. So I hope she's doing whatever she wants. She looks great. Let's talk about Anaconda. Okay. Housemaid's getting the fuck delineation for me, just so you know, for obvious reasons, for reasons that are not hard to understand. Anaconda, directed by Tom Gormekin, written by Gormickin and Kevin Edden. It stars Paul Rudd, Jack Black, Steve Zahn, Tendiwe Newton, Daniela Melchior, and Sultan Mello. Yes. Here's the plot of this movie. Best friends Griff and Doug have always dreamed of remaking their all-time favorite movie, Anaconda.

39:03When a midlife crisis pushes them to finally go for it, they assemble a crew and head deep into the jungles of the Amazon to start filming. However, life soon imitates art when a gigantic anaconda with a thirst for blood starts hunting them down. Mm-hmm. what'd you think of Anaconda? We saw it together. We did. You insisted. I did. Yeah, because there's just, there's nothing more depressing than going to the mall on December 17th by yourself to see Anaconda. It's just really not, it's not how this movie was intended to be seen. It's not. I did chuckle a couple times. I certainly did as well. And I, we have to say that up front before saying that this is just a cynical, depressing exercise in IP reinvention, sort of.

39:58I'd like to try to get to the bottom of it. Okay. Because I also laughed pretty hard about three or four times. Yeah. Which is a pretty good hit ratio for comedies for me in the 2020s. Well, I mean, that's also just indicative of where we're going. I laughed less than you because Jack Black is black licorice to me. Right. Okay. So if you don't like Jack Black, you're not going to like this movie. So that goes well, but when Paul Rudd was doing stuff. Well, I have a couple of problems with it. It is it is a metatextual joke, right? The metatextual joke is that Hollywood is only interested in IP.

40:30You can't get anything made these days unless you have access to that IP. If you look at the year end box office, everything is based on something unless you're weapons or sinners. That's just a fact. Yeah. The film we just talked about is based on a novel that people know. The movie knows this. It's making fun of that idea, but also participating in that idea and trying to have its cake and eat it too. Sometimes it works. Sometimes there's a cleverness, or at least like the presumption of cleverness, in the way that the movie is constructed that is fun. However, like it's the same joke 40 times.

41:09And you can only make it so many times before you lose interest in it. And I lost interest in the movie pretty quickly. Yes. There's a couple of things about it that I found really hard to stomach that are not really a big deal, but in my head I just couldn't get over. Specifically, the movie Anaconda, which is not good, but it's fun. Yeah. And it's like a relic of our youth and was a big hit at the time, or a modest hit at the time, and has a very memorable John Voight performance that is discussed frequently in the movie. Ice Cube, Jennifer Lopez, Eric Stoltz, all these people are cited in the film.

41:41Just your classic, like, mid-tier creature feature from Hollywood. has a long tradition in movies like that. And the characters in this movie apparently loved this movie when they were kids. Anaconda was released in 1997, two years after Clueless, which Paul Rudd starred in. Yeah. Paul Rudd is 56 years old. Jack Black is 56 years old. They're not at midlife crisis age. They're in their mid-50s. I know this. I've been spent the last 30 years with Jack Black and Paul Rudd in movies. I like them both a lot. I think they're both super talented. why does this movie not star two people in their early 40s this is your problem I mean it's just one very obvious thing that's just like I just can't get my head around this movie I'm like Jack Black has like a 10 year old child I mean this I mean maybe he does but like the whole because the movie orients itself around this quartet of friends who made movies when they were teenagers and they were inspired by the Hollywood blockbusters of their time and they really wanted to make something life got in the way Jack Black stayed in Buffalo and he makes wedding videos and he's stuck Paul Rudd moved out to California to try to make it as an actor and it didn't really shake out the way that he wanted to despite that great four episode run on SWAT like you know life happens and it's tough and the movie wants to be this kind of big chill-esque sentimental like what happened to us man and it also wants to be this rollicking funny metatextual like the player but for IP comedy film and it's neither because it's both are incoherent together they don't mix it's kind of stupid everyone's trying and it's not awful or anything like it's not a fiasco I mean it's fake but you know it's this is part of your winking action genre that doesn't always work but there's also like a winking comedy I mean there is a winking comedy to it and there is just something unfelt and a little you know when you're watching behind the scenes footage or like anything that is about how comedy gets made and they keep like just going and going and going and going and going and they and you know they'll find the joke and eventually like find the end point but the making of the comedy involves just please stop often and this is a real like no one told anyone to stop and they had one joke and it just kept going and going and going and going and going.

44:08And it was kind of clever for two seconds. And then it's supposed to be a feature length film with one joke. Action comedy is also really hard. Yeah. Because there has to be a lot of action. And if the action is just okay, and the action in this movie is just okay, then, and the laughs are not there in the action sequences, which they are a little bit, but not enough. Then you're just kind of watching another noisy, explosion filled gun violence movie. that has a joke that is like, doesn't, you don't really buy. And I thought the unbearable weight of massive talent was better than this movie. That was Gormekin's last film as a film about Nicolas Cage as Nicolas Cage.

44:48Yeah. And him being kind of like utilized, his fame and success being utilized as a prop and a kind of metatextual joke in that movie. I think part of the reason that movie works is that him and Pedro Pascal have really good chemistry together and they're pretty funny. I thought that script was smarter than this one. This one, I can't help but think about the executives being like, yeah, we could make this. We could get this one over the line. I mean, they say Sony so many times. Like there is an actual Sony like boat joke that comes in. It's really, really, it's very inside baseball. Isn't this a really weird movie to release at Christmas?

45:27Isn't this a summer movie? I guess so. I mean, people like Jack Black, I guess. I don't know. the holiday right into Anaconda. I mean, God bless you if that's how you're spending your holidays. Maybe it was to get distance between Minecraft rather than release this in August. This just feels like August 2nd is when this movie should come out, not on Christmas. I guess there's a little bit of counter-programming up against whatever else is out there in the world, but I'm a little bit mystified. Do not understand Steve Zahn and Tindyway Newton in this movie. No, they don't get to do anything. They are really, like, really, really, really supporting players.

46:01I thought Selton Mello was pretty funny as the snake wrangler? Yes. Daniela Melchior. I don't know. Is she supposed to be... I thought she was French. Is she Spanish? Is she South American? They're in Brazil, right? Yeah. And I thought that they were infiltrating, or not infiltrating, but they find themselves in the... Portuguese. That explains it. Ah, okay. In the middle of a gold mining... Apologize to Daniela Melchior. you know I felt this plot line was insulting and in its lack of depth thin very thin yeah I agree movie is not a success no this would be my kill yeah absolutely not a complete waste of time but yeah if we had gone alone to your point it would have been disappointing we would have been angry exiting the grove and seeing all those happy families the wondrous winter wonderland that takes place at the grove every year yeah So I would exit the theater if I was by myself, and I would think for like seven minutes, should I try to go get a seat at the bar at the Cheesecake Factory?

47:09Because I need to eat something, and it probably would have been nine straight hours since I'd eaten something. Yeah. And then I would decide, oh, the line is too long, or I'm not going to wait for a space to open up. What would you order if you sat at the bar at the Cheesecake Factory by yourself? Louisiana chicken pasta. Okay, great. Just going to the absolute classics. Which is like 38 ,000 calories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's honestly so good. Went to Cheesecake Factory after Santa. I got the Thai lettuce wraps. Oh, yeah. Those are good. Yeah. And then we also got like mozzarella sticks and pot stickers.

47:39Really just, yeah. It's a classic experience. We're not even up to the last movie yet. We got to get to it quickly. But I just want to let you know I'm going to drink so much alcohol over the break. Me too. I have cut out alcohol so much from my life because we record all the time. And I just don't ever want to be hungover when we're recording. I find it very hard to do the show effectively when I'm like either extremely tired or my head hurts. Makes sense. Yeah. So I don't, I just don't, I just don't drink any, like I, I was very comfortably a three cocktail person. And now that never happens.

48:12This, I'm going fucking hard this week. Listen, I've got a date tonight at the Houston's bar with my husband. Great. I like, well, there are cocktail themes for both Christmas Eve and Christmas at my house. Just so you know. Very exciting. Very exciting. Yeah, I've planned out the drinking menu. I've planned out the dessert menu, the regular menu too. No, I'm excited about that. I do think we would have had more fun had we been drinking for either of these movies. I know, that was the original idea. And then it was like, we got a pod tomorrow. We got a pod on Friday. You know, it's the world's smallest violin playing for podcasters.

48:43I did propose like our version. Sorry, Jack, you were already traveling when I came up with the concept for the big picture holiday party, which was seeing the housemate of the iPic at 3 p.m. and getting hammered. but we couldn't make that work let's do it in january there will be something bad that we can go see okay that's great so you're taking jimate what right i think i'm going to a screening i do want to what what's what what they moved the date on the new colleen hoover movie with michael monroe it's in march now yeah i just saw that yeah okay um we'll figure it out so you're taking all the drinking into january probably not okay once we start recording again i'll stop i I know it's hard because then you don't want to have the face bloat.

49:26Yeah. I don't care about that. I don't care about how I look. I literally care about how I feel. And hangovers are getting harder as I get older. I mean, you don't have to tell me about that. The post-holiday party one was absolutely brutal. Mercy. That's the one. Mercy. Mercy. That's it. That's it. Oh, I was pretty drunk when we saw that trailer at CinemaCon. Chris Pratt in a gamer chair being on trial with AI Rebecca Ferguson. Only on FaceTime. Yeah, let's do it. Dude, that's perfect. Okay, great. I'm fired up for that. Refresh your good vibes with TikTok. With the right vibes, it's...

50:06Oh, man!

50:10...to...

50:28Last movie, Song Sung Blue. Okay. So by default, this is what we're marrying. Yes. Which I understand, but also, I'll just say, this film took a turn that I didn't really expect. It wouldn't be the happiest marriage. In the end, there is something beautiful in it. It's an honest portrait of marriage and also, spoiler alert, amputation, which I just did not see coming. I didn't know the million-dollar baby was going to be a part of this. It's a good point. It is a similar move. I didn't know really anything about this movie sitting down, and I'll be honest, I was dreading it. Yeah. I didn't want to watch it.

51:05I don't have a huge relationship to Neil Diamond. I do quite like Hugh Jackman. As I was watching it, he's pretty consistently winning in everything he does. You have a real soft spot for Hugh Jackman. I do. I don't dislike him, but you come out of every Hugh Jackman movie and you're kind of like, hey, Hugh Jackman. I think I forget. And then I sit down and I'm like, God, he's really giving it his all. Like, I just love how much he cares and is trying. He really, you know, in the opening segments of this movie where he is just immediately singing with an acoustic guitar and Neil Diamond song. Great opening.

51:39Yeah. he's in an AA meeting and he is but you don't know immediately you don't realize it yeah and then it cuts to it yes I thought I loved it yeah the first hour of this movie has real charm as it's about these two people who are they're kind of like celebrity impersonators who sing at state fairs and carnivals and Kate Hudson is a Patsy Cline impersonator Hugh Jackman sometimes works as Elvis sometimes works as someone named Lightning who is like his own kind of concoction. And he has this abiding affection for Neil Diamond. Hudson's character and Jackman's character meet at one of these fairs.

52:16They fall in love very quickly and they form a band. And their band, which is a Neil Diamond tribute band, Neil Diamond experience, becomes like relatively successful in their home state of, remind me, is it? Wisconsin. Wisconsin, thank you. And they're kind of the toast of Milwaukee and they're having some success and we see a lot of great performances of the two of them singing. You know, Kate Hudson can sing. She just released her first album in the last year. Sure. Even though we've known that she can sing for some time. Talk about having a fabletics, singing career, acting career. She is a one of one.

52:54We can talk about her briefly as well. But they're really performing in this movie together and singing these songs. And I have a relationship with some of these songs, but not all of them. So I didn't feel like, I didn't have that experience that you have when you're watching a musician's biopic where you're like, okay, and now it's time for the song Rocket Man in the film Rocket Man. Like, I just don't, you know. They even make a running joke about how they don't want to do Sweet Caroline. Which is clever. Yeah, the Hugh Jackman character is like, no, there's so much more, you know? So there is still that music biopic feeling I like of when they sing, when they perform a song that you recognize.

53:30You're like, oh, they're doing it, but they've constructed it in a way that it doesn't feel quite as rote. I agree. I mean, a song like Suleiman, that's not a song I know at all, really. And to see Jackman's character have such a commitment and dedication to defending sincerely something that he loves, I just like, it's something that I try to do. I just like that in a character. I think he's a very cool representation of a very specific kind of person. The movie, though, as you said, takes a very severe turn where the Kate Hudson character, who is a single mom with two kids, she falls in love with this guy, Mike, and they move in together and they start this band.

54:08And then a car drives up on their lawn and hits her when she's in a severe accident and has her leg amputated. And she very understandably slips into a depression and becomes addicted to medication that she's been prescribed to cope with the pain and anxiety of this loss. And the movie becomes more like a redemption drama about recovery and about sticking together and what really matters. And then it takes another hard turn in terms of what happens to the Mike character. his struggles with heart condition and his ability to balance his performance life, which means everything to him, with his physical struggles.

54:44And the movie becomes very severe and very melodramatic. I think pretty knowingly. I don't think it's doing anything that it doesn't understand what it's doing. But it is a real record scratch moment that never relents, right? And it is going from these exuberant and well-performed, but pretty sunny performances of these songs. and they spend a lot of time on them to oh and now something absolutely terrible has happened. Yeah. I liked it in the way that like The Housemaid is a movie that is only about opulence and whenever it's trying to show us like what Sidney Sweeney's hardscrabble life is where she sleeps in her car you're like this is complete nonsense.

55:24This is really a movie about being lower middle class in the middle of the country. Like then and like if something like this happens to you what are you going to do? How are you going to get out of it? How are you going to survive? If you lose your primary income what happens? What do you do? Right. I think it's like pretty sincere about looking at that. That's pretty consistent through a lot of Brewers movies. Hustle and Flow is also a movie about like basically economics, being in economic straits and then having to find a way to create your way out of it. So it's something that obviously interests him.

55:50It does. It's totally about that because it stars Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson and they are also given like all of these moments which are true to the character which we should say is based on a true story. A documentary, yes. You know, adapted from a documentary. That they, so they get all these you know glowing performance moments and then the rest of the time it's like a little bit Kate Hudson in Midwestern drag you know and she is doing the accent and it's not that she's doing a bad job I actually think she's doing a good accent but it's kind of a campy performance right exactly you just you are aware that it is Kate Hudson wearing like these unflattering sweaters and haircut and what have you but the movie and she's like letting her belly roll over a little bit she's like doing some things that you wouldn't see a star like this do I don't think that's a real belly but yes a false belly what if she just gains 10 pounds that week yeah that's that's totally how it works so it's I was thinking a lot about the eyes of Tammy Faye when watching this interesting and I like this a lot better than the eyes of Tammy Faye I do too and because you know because it is an inventive it's not a bio it is a biopic but not of the the musicians yeah of other people so it is taking that genre and doing something more interesting with it.

57:03I think it's a bummer that that's what Jessica Chastain won for and that this probably won't. I don't know if I think Kate Hudson should win an Oscar for this, but she's nominated for a Globe, right? Yeah, but you know, this also felt to me very vintage, like 20 years ago, Oscars bait. It does. And you know, 20 years ago, Hustle and Flow came out and Craig Brewer won an Academy Award in part for working on that movie. So I, there is a conventionality to it, though. I didn't say that in a bad way. Yeah, no, I know what you mean. Because there are versions of this that don't really work. I did find this comforting as a bit of a throwback.

57:42I think in part, I'm just so worn down, as listeners of the show know, by the traditional music biopic. Totally. But I love music, and I love hearing music performed loud. And those are the best parts of those movies in the first place. So getting even a little interested in Neil Diamond's music, for me, was cool. That was a good takeaway. And then, you know, Jackman, as you said, is just a star I like being around. and I think is a really fine actor. Kate Hudson I don't usually think of as a very good actress. I think she's a good star. Yeah. I think she's very good on screen and carries weight.

58:10I never thought she had the same... depth as her mom. You know, I always thought her mom had like a screen persona that she was always really good at undercutting very cleverly Kate Hudson and I never really felt like there was the second tier this is her trying to go to a second level yeah sometimes she gets there I agree with you sometimes she doesn't always get there she's burdened with that character's arc is true but surprising and sort of like wait what there is the million dollar baby twist I'm just like excuse me what's happening yeah what's happening now yeah it's a lot it's a lot of movie it's a lot of it's asking a lot it's a bit it's both grounded and absurd at the same time.

58:49Yeah. And you kind of got to get your head around that. But I was charmed. I wasn't uncharmed. I really did like the performances. And I do. And I like that it is a new way of getting these types of musical performances on screen. Because watching the biopic version of stuff is just unrewarding at this point. Yeah. I don't think I would be excited about the pure Neil Diamond biopic. Quick final question for you about this. Eddie Vedder? Yeah. Just, I mean, he's there. Yeah. Yeah. That's all based on a true story. That's nice. Yeah. Eddie Vedder, you're a fan? Yeah. Listen, I was there. Favorite Pearl Jam album?

59:28Phytology. Yeah. Not for me. Okay. No code? Wow. Okay. That's fine. I mean, 10. Well, sure. Yeah. What is it that... Is it a live that hits in this movie? I can't remember what the Pearl Jam needle drop is. It's a first album needle drop. Remember the Pearl Jam cover of Last Kiss that came out when we were in high school? I've listened to that upwards of 200 times. What was that about? It was, I believe, a charity recording. No, no, I know. But why did I become so obsessed with that? I can tell you from New York, they played it on Z100 nonstop. I mean, I think they did in Atlanta too. I think it was because it was a crossover song for grunge rock where it was not like a pure rock station song because it had that like kind of 50s doo-wop-y quality to the song construction.

1:00:24So it was like Eddie Vedder doing a pure heartthrob song. Right. Right. And those stations were kind of confused about what to do with popular music when CNC Music Factory and Michael Jackson went out and Kurt Cobain and Smashing Pumpkins came in. So this was a way to kind of get a little bit of that before like the Dave Matthews bands of the worlds came along and kind of like gave them new ballast to make rock pop. Thank you for that extended answer. Not bad, right? I think that was pretty legitimate. I used to be a music writer. I've given this period a lot of fun. yeah um okay well fuck marry kill you know it's a dangerous game you gotta be careful out there you never know what you can contract from a schizophrenic wife in a beautiful townhouse in Great Neck that's true I do think that the Song Song Blue people had a lovely marriage it had its ups and its downs yeah I hope none of that happens to me but except for the love and happiness do you think that you and I could do well in a musical duo who would we be Who would we perform as?

1:01:28Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Captain and Tennille is right there. Okay.

1:01:34Sure, I'm on keyboard. Yeah. Yeah, you're on keyboard. Okay. I don't know. Let's give it some thought. Wings? Yeah. Oh, that's rude to me. What do you mean? Linda is an icon. Sure, but I can sing better than that. That's not very nice. I love wings. I do too, but let's be real. It's not like people were supportive of her. All right, well, you think about it. Okay. Whoever you want to be. Okay. I'm going to go talk to Craig Brewer, okay? Let's go to my conversation with him right now.

1:02:06Well, for the first time on this show, Craig Brewer, welcome. Thank you for being here. Noted filmmaker, Mets fan, among other things. We have a lot to discuss. Since you haven't been on the show and you've been making movies for this entire century, I was hoping you could tell me just a little bit about yourself and getting into the game for anybody who doesn't really know? Because you've had a very successful career, but I don't know if as many people know your background in filmmaking. Yeah. Well, I guess my filmmaking career started here in Memphis, Tennessee. I was kind of a guy. I didn't go to film school or anything.

1:02:47I just learned filmmaking really from books that I bought at Barnes & Noble. When I was working there, I had a 35 % discount. And it was the 90s. And there was like a lot of books on filmmaking during the 90s. Seems like all the filmmakers started writing their books, like Robert Rodriguez. And there was even a great book, Sidney Lumet, making movies. And so that's kind of how I did it. And I came from the theater a lot. I wrote a lot and directed theater a lot of my life. But really, it was kind of like a big transformation really here in Memphis. My father passed away kind of unexpectedly, and I got about$20 ,000 of inheritance.

1:03:33And he had read the script that I wrote. It was called The Poor and Tongri, and it was about car thieves here in Memphis. We have a car theft problem here in Memphis. And it was about like a car thief who falls in love with one of his victims who was a cello player. So music was like a big part of it. And I went out and got a digital camera from a pawn shop and I bought a Sennheiser mic, had a crew of two. I was one of them and made this movie and it played in my local theater for a good six weeks, six week run. And it was like the big movie to see. And I made back my money and that was the movie that Stephanie Elaine and John Singleton saw.

1:04:16and I had a sequel ready to go. It was, so I was in an ampersand time in my life where I was like, so there was poor and hungry and this one was called Hustle and Flow. And it was kind of in the same world, same like strip club, pawn shop, chop shop type of Memphis underworld. And then John decided after we went everywhere with Hustle and Flow, that he was gonna have to finance it himself. And so he put his house up for collateral. Stephanie put her house up for collateral. I was sleeping on couches for like four years in Hollywood, flying back and forth from Memphis to Los Angeles. And finally, we got going here in Memphis with Hustle & Flow.

1:05:03And then Hustle & Flow happened and my life kind of changed. But up until then, I was writing in bars and trying my best to kind of figure out a way to get into it all. But it really took me living in Memphis to kind of figure myself out a little bit. I had to kind of struggle to figure it out. And that's kind of how I got in. And then Hustle & Flow led to Black Snake Moan and other movies. I lived in that paramount world for a while after Hustle & Flow. and, you know, eventually moved on to other films. I appreciate you sharing the story in that way because it's really inspiring and it is increasingly unusual, I think, to come up in that very specific way of basically making regional cinema and being able to transfer something about where you're from to national audiences and getting like buy-in from the business, the system, and having people who believe in you.

1:06:04And the strain of music obviously runs through all your films Can you speak about it coherently at this point? Like why music plays such a profound role in the films that you decide to do? Well, I think that what it was is that there was this, I mean, there really was kind of like an education that I had here in Memphis. There was a time where all I did was just buy books on Memphis music. You know, I'd learned everything I could about B.B. King. I learned everything I could about Sam Phillips, who kind of discovered Elvis and Howlin' Wolf and Johnny Cash and also Big Star, which is kind of a very, you know, a famous band, but not incredibly famous.

1:06:52But all of these people were around me, and I could have, like, really good connections with them. and I found that it was just something that I had already like really responded to because, and I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately, but I really do think it was kind of special to grow up being a young teen in the 80s because I'm really now looking back on that time where MTV had just started and movies had a music component to it that seemed very unique now looking back on it. I mean, I know I could look at like Footloose and Purple Rain and all of those movies, but I mean, even just, you know, movie Working Girl, you know, had a very specific theme, you know, that Carly Simon did.

1:07:41And even Breakfast Club, all of John Hughes movies kind of had this music part of it, but it didn't stop there because you really, you couldn't watch the movie over and over again like you could today. So you went out and you bought the soundtrack and you kind of experienced that movie again, just through the, through the music. And I, I just think in my adult life, when I started like really studying blues and studying rock and roll, but also studying how the producers worked, it really kind of informed a lot of, of how I, how I direct, you know, and, and I'm not talking about like camera movements necessarily.

1:08:20I'm talking more about like editorial rhythms, but I'm also talking about like how to deal with actors. You know, I would see producers work with musicians and they were trying to kind of like capture something in the room. They were trying to capture something kind of honest and real, but somewhat goosed. And that always kind of like appealed to me because I felt like a lot of the plays that I was really into, Tennessee Williams and August Wilson, you know, all of these playwrights always had kind of like a little bit of a, almost like an audacity to it. You know, they just kind of pushed it a little bit.

1:08:59And I just found a kind of a rhythm with it. And I'm, especially on this last movie, it's been fun to kind of, as, you know, now being in my 50s, kind of looking back a little bit more and kind of going like, what's all this about? It's interesting. Yeah, it strikes me just going back and looking at some of the films. So, you know, a lot of your films seem to be about this really interesting exploration of the roots of Black music and Black culture and the origins of American identity. And then kind of how it spiders out over time, right? And the way that it affects people and, you know, reflects communities and relationships.

1:09:36Neil Diamond is not an artist that you would think is in the same tradition as some of the other artists and worlds that you've explored. And I will tell you, like, I was a little bit dreading seeing this movie because I have no relationship to Neil Diamond's music. I made the movie for you. That's great. That's what I wanted to hear. I mean, it really worked on me in that way. Like, it got me actually interested in an artist that I don't have a relationship to. So I'm curious to hear you talk about your relationship to him and maybe even how you see him reflected in the lineage of films that you've made.

1:10:08Well, I think that what I get out of Neil Diamond is something that I kind of came to later because I always knew his music growing up because my dad and my mom listened to his music. It was always that. And I would say people of my generation can kind of like that to some extent they make fun of Neil Diamond because they that is who he was. He was that person that your parents listened to. But you also, you kind of begrudgingly like, yeah, I like that Forever in Blue Jeans song. I, you know, it's like, you know, it's a Sweet Caroline is obviously the big favorite right now. But, you know, you know, back in the day, it was it was really kind of like, you know, I'm a believer was like you'd see it on the monkeys all the time.

1:10:49And, you know, so I had an idea of his music, but it wasn't really until I got a little bit older that I started really listening to his music, but also just hearing interesting stories about him. And also I started like really kind of like actually reading the lyrics and listening to his music differently. And what I realized is that he is kind of that New York intellectual, but also a feeling artist that was really dealing with a lot of isolation and really dealing with loneliness and longing and wanting to have love in his life. and even songs that I thought I knew what they were about. Like there's a song, Cracklin' Rosie.

1:11:35And I thought, okay, well, this girl Rosie sounds amazing. I don't quite know what she means by a store-bought woman, but you got me like a guitar humming. And then I found out, oh no, Neil would get together with all his buddies when they didn't have any dates and they'd get a bottle of Rosie and drink and get drunk. And that was the love. And so even the song that I thought was about some girl was actually about, no, not getting one. And so it wasn't until like this one day that I read this article and I had seen the documentary that I was inspired by for a while, but it was always that thing that I just showed my friends.

1:12:15It wasn't something that I really thought I'd have an actual possibility of making a movie like this. But I had read this article about Neil Diamond coming out to Los Angeles to audition for the movie Lenny. the Bob Fosse movie with Dustin Hoffman. And he bombed the audition and then he went back to his apartment and he began writing, I am, I said. And I was listening to the lyrics now with this idea of trying to do something in Hollywood, failing at it and wondering if you should even be out there in the first place. And I'd been really experiencing that by having to go back and forth between Memphis and Los Angeles.

1:12:58And there was a lot of times that I just kind of felt a little bit lost. And it's one of those moments where, you know, I've had this twice now. One was, you know, the karaoke moment and Lost in Translation when Bill Murray is singing the song. And I remember just crying in the theater and just going like, Craig, what is up with you right now? And then this moment, I just put on I Am I Said and just had a good cry. And I was like, well, Neil, you found me. Like, it took me a while. I guess I needed to feel some loneliness and feel some doubt. And here you are knocking on my door with a song that I never really thought of much of before.

1:13:40And I think that's kind of where he, you know, when I was younger, I mean, it's great to listen to 3-6 Mafia and 8 Ball and MJG, but I was a younger man. I was in a much more hungrier place. And sure enough, I guess you can get to a point in your life where, you know, and no one heard it all. Not even the chair is something that resonates with you. So it's just where I guess I am right now. I think that there's connectivity to that, though, too. Like there is, as a kid who was raised on hip hop and loves Ape Ball and MJG, like I also am finding myself maybe a little bit more emotionally connected to, a contemplative kind of singer-songwriter music at this stage of my life.

1:14:27But like, those are artists that are weirdly talking to each other, right? Like that idea of isolation that you're talking about, that's not uncommon in a lot of the music that you've portrayed in the films or in the blues music you've portrayed in the films. And I think it's cool the way that you're able to kind of move between these eras, but you did it in a way that is like, frankly, for me, as a person who sees everything, it's so exciting for this to not be a Neil Diamond biopic. there is something so fantastic about seeing the way that his music is affecting other people and that they're using it to kind of transform their lives um and i was wondering if you could just talk about that a little bit of like maybe using some of the power some of the tools of a music biopic but not the conventions yeah i think that what it was for me is and look i i love biopics and music biopics and it's funny i think i saw an article recently where it's now kind of like a genre, like that, that it's like almost like a, like a genre that, that is, you know, when you're comparing like money returns, like they're going, well, there's horror, there's music, there's music biopics.

1:15:32And I never really thought that it was that big of a thing, but now I'm, I'm seeing that. I mean, even this last year, it, it, it's, it's still a thing that's, that's very popular, but I think what it was for me was how can I, um, get an audience to, to love and fall in love with somebody that they don't know who, who they are, you know, and, and there's been many people that have come up to me and said, I thought you were doing a Neil Diamond biopic. I even went into the movie thinking that's what I was seeing. And I was like, well, you're half right. I mean, it's a biopic. It's just, the point is, is that I'm hoping you don't know anything about them, like, because that's kind of the point that I'm trying to make about kind of what you pointed to earlier, regionalism, you know, is, can you be artistically fulfilled and can you be fulfilled as a, as a person just by like staying in your community and almost like singing and performing for your community?

1:16:28And can that ultimately be a better way to get a global lens, to look at you and to find yourself and to find your happiness and find your, your worth more through thinking that, you know, playing in bars or like even having your movie playing a bar like I used to do back in the day is perhaps more meaningful than what usually biopics go to, which is like, well, when do they break big and when do they get to that place that they're now supernova? And then it starts getting into the usual things of like, okay, but when do they ruin that? When do they start succumbing to their nightmares or succumbing to their personal problems.

1:17:17And I guess what I always loved about this story is that he was a recovering alcoholic and he died sober. He went 25 years of being sober. And I thought, well, that's kind of interesting. Maybe there is something to do here that doesn't necessarily need to go in those usual directions with biopics where they make it and then let's have them destroy themselves. And have the other elements of life be the things that are trying to destroy them, you know, random tragedies, you know, if someone's sick in your family, like the things that are very relatable, I think, to a lot of people that aren't necessarily, you know, a Bob Dylan or, you know, another, any, any, you know, biopic where there's always that moment where, okay, now, now they've all got to like have it destroy them.

1:18:09And I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm dealing with it now, even working on the Snoop Dogg movie, like, okay, well, how can we think of it a little bit differently and not try to get into that usual thing? So I, I felt it was just an opportunity to get into something that it's just been very close to me, which is just, you know, can, can we elevate people that aren't necessarily famous and say that it's okay and that, you know, your worth is grand and grand enough to have like a big Hollywood movie made of it. Yeah, I liked what you said about the Mike character being in recovery. The whole movie is sort of about recovery of a kind for all the characters and in different, you know, the different ways that certain things have affected each person.

1:18:58but the movie does as people who are starting to see it now realizing it really is like a tale of two halves there is a first half that is this exuberant rise and then the second half that is quite tragic and shocking in ways I hadn't seen the documentary before this I didn't know anything about their story and that's a hard tonal balance you know to keep an audience on the rails for the two halves of this movie maybe can you talk about how you thought about doing that and making us feel safe throughout the story Well, it's definitely something that was on my mind throughout the whole thing because I, you know, there's so many different ways you can go into that, you know.

1:19:35You know, and I don't mind, you know, talking about it. You know, it's, you know, the movie's coming out in two days and I'm sure people are going to know that, you know, Claire Sardina was, who plays Thunder. You know, there's Lightning and Thunder. So Mike is Lightning and Claire was Thunder. right at the moment when they were, everything was kind of going great in their life, a car lost control and hit her while she was just gardening in her front yard. And she lost her leg. And I knew that I really, I mean, I wanted to tell the movie because of this, because it wasn't like I wanted it to just be, you know, this one element of their story, because I personally feel that that's really where true love is tested.

1:20:25You know, you get into a relationship and everything's fantastic, you know, for those first three months. You know, there's emojis and, you know, you're still sleeping in bed and holding on to each other and you're not getting hot and, you know, saying, hey, that's your side of it. You know, there's all that, it just couldn't go any better, right? And then something happens that really kind of tests, you know, the love and tests the commitment. And I just, I knew that the only way that I was really going to do it was to just get people to fall in love. Like, it's not something that I wanted to do the usual.

1:21:03I mean, they do it a lot in television and some movies do it where it's like you kind of start and tease the tragedy and you go back. And how did we get to this point? Because I don't really think that the movie completely is about this one tragic moment because there's a few things that come at this couple in this family that's just trying to, you know, they're just trying to live. They're trying to pay their bills. But they're also trying to make music and play in bars and entertain you. But at the same time, it's like, you know, how many bad things can happen to this couple? But I still found their story rather inspiring.

1:21:32And so, you know, for me, I guess I just, I knew that I was, if I could just get to the halfway point and then punch everybody in the gut, that hopefully they would have invested enough time in falling in love that they couldn't just immediately go like, okay, I didn't really sign up for this. But at the same time, like I didn't want to get too gratuitous in the area of it because I do think that, you know, the whole purpose of this was to see that you can actually pull yourself out of this. And that usually the thing that pulls people out of trauma is a community, is a family, is realizing that you can't really do it on your own and you need to hold on to your passion.

1:22:20And for some people, it's holding on to your faith. And for me, in the story I saw with this documentary that I saw about this couple, their faith was singing. Their faith was, you know, singing Neil Diamond. And, you know, everybody's got their own thing. I know every year here in Memphis, everybody comes here to mourn Elvis Presley. And we could laugh at it, seeing everybody with their candles. But until you see somebody from another country who's weeping and telling you, you don't know what Elvis's music did for me, it's hard to be cynical about that kind of love and passion for something. And for this couple, it happened to be the two of them singing together and singing these songs.

1:23:09There's a song with Holly Holly that I just knew like, okay, I knew at the beginning of this whole process, like if I can get to this moment where they return to singing the song, if I can do what I can to earn this moment, then we will have succeeded. And I think we did. I think you did too. I just recorded a conversation with my co-host, Amanda, about the movie and I started talking about it and I said something to the effect of, gosh, you know, Hugh Jackman is so winning in this movie. He's so great. And she turned to me and she was like, you always say that? Like you're surprised about a Hugh Jackman performance?

1:23:45But it is pretty amazing that he, through a lot of different kinds of parts in a lot of different kinds of movies, it really feels like he's working hard and selling the movie in a way, but you don't feel the artifice of performance either. It's this very interesting thing where he does have this entertainer's quality. And he, you know, he's really got the movie on his shoulders, especially for the first act. Oh, yeah. And I was hoping you could just talk about casting him and, you know, why he was right for this and what he brings. It's interesting what you bring up. I'd love to hear what Amanda says about this, because I think that there is something about Hugh as an entertainer.

1:24:25You know, he loves to be on stage. He loves to sing songs and get everybody going. But I find that there's also an unshakable certainty in his earnestness, in his life. I mean, as much as everybody says, oh, he's such a dream, he is. I mean, because he really doesn't have any of that. He really is a kind man and he cares. And I think on this movie, I just knew I had to have him. I mean, I always tell people it's like he was at the top of my list. There wasn't a list. It was Hugh. And, you know, I needed two things. I needed Neil Diamond to sign off on the music. And I needed Hugh Jackman because he's, I think he was going to be the only one that could understand that kind of, I mean, yes, he could sing, but that kind of showmanship, you know, make jokes that he's the greatest showman, but he does have that.

1:25:20And I think he understands it. And also, and as someone who just went to Milwaukee with him, and so he's hanging out with, you know, like we serve like frozen custard to 500 people that waited two to three hours in the snow to see Hugh Jackman. And he was only supposed to serve about 100. And there's this moment where they said, okay, Hugh, we're supposed to go. And he's like, well, what about all these people? Like they've all been out there. And they're like, yeah, but we only said 100, you know. And he's like, and he turned to me and I was helping, I was serving with him. and he's like, Craig, I can't, I can't, I can't leave him out here like this.

1:25:52I just can't do it. I'll pay for it all. And, and, and I, I just looked at him and I was just like, you're having such a Hugh Jackman moment. Like if only people knew this was you because he does care. And I think he's very subtle in the movie and he's subtle really in a lot of his movies. I mean, I look at prisoners and, but it's just when that rage comes forward or when that performance comes forward, it's really, it's hard to take your eyes off of them. It's powerful. And, and, and I think it's that Ozzy in him that felt very comfortable in Milwaukee talking with people. He's kind of a guy's guy, you know, he can talk to you about sports.

1:26:26He can also talk to you about singing Godspell when he was a teenager. And so he's a very interesting person that traverses this world of kind of like a very interesting position of masculinity. Yeah. So I knew I had to have him. I want to hear you talk about Kate a little bit too, because she is an unusual star to me, where she has been truly iconic in a few movies. Feels like she has not made as many movies in the last decade as you would have thought based on the way that her career launched and what a star she was in the aughts in 2010s. And I'm sure there are a variety of reasons for why she chose to step back or didn't do certain things.

1:27:06But you've kind of tapped into a very different approaching middle age version of Kate Hudson in the film. And you've kind of asked her to do some very unglamorous things. She's doing an accent, which is very risky. And I think she pulls it off very well. So why did you want her to be in that part? well i didn't until i did um and i think it's important for people to hear this and i'm sure kate's fine with me saying this but you know when you when you decide you're gonna cast somebody suddenly there's these lists that start going around uh and and usually like it's it's 30 you know deep but there's really just there's the 10 and then there's the five you know it's like these are the actresses that mean something right now and kate wasn't on that, you know?

1:27:52And I'd known Kate for like 20 years. I, you know, I think I met her for Black Snake Moan, went over to her house and we started playing like, you know, blues music that she was really, you know, fluent with. She just really knows music, knows, knows, not, I mean, she was at the time, you know, with a musician and, and, and then I met with her a couple of other times over at her house. And I was always trying to find something for us to do, but over the years she had, you know, moved on and I had, I had moved on as well. But then Hugh saw her on a TV show on, uh, uh, on, I believe CBS Sunday morning and said, you know, you, you gotta check her out.

1:28:30And, and I, I went on and I watched the episode and there was something about just seeing Kate now, like close to like 10 to 15 years later, after I was hanging out with her and she was talking about her son going off to college. And I was like, wait a minute, that can't be the boy that was like the toddler that was in the room like when I was there. And then it kind of hit me. It's like, yeah, Craig, we're older. Like you have teenagers. And yet then Kate would like tear up about it. And then she would say like, I'm kind of getting tired of Hollywood trying to make up their mind about me. And I'm gonna write music and I'm gonna go in the recording studio and I'm gonna go and I'm gonna just play venues and I'm gonna, you know, be in a band.

1:29:14And I just thought, oh my God, this is like perfect for her. Just absolutely perfect. And so I got, I, we got on the phone with her. I had a zoom with Kate where it was like no time had passed. And she said something to me. She goes, look, Craig, I know that there's going to be plenty of people that are going to give you the notes that I've got to have agency. And I've got to have like, you know, that I've got to be about like my dream and all this kind of stuff. But I'm just telling you, I think she just loves him. I think she just loves him and loves him and wants to be married to him. And is totally happy doing that.

1:29:45And I was like, I'm so happy that I have like this really confident woman telling me this very important thing that I think is going to be crucial because, you know, she has to do that because in the end she ultimately rescues him as well. And, and so I don't even think we went to the studio. I mean, what you're supposed to, it's kind of like once I had Hugh, he was, he was like, well, we're doing it with Kate and we were just off and running. And so I agree with you that she, you know, I tell people Kate's kind of been in her own prison, you know, because she's really good at comedy. She's really good at that, you know, when that smile hits, you know, it's huge.

1:30:29It's bigger than life. but I have always felt that she was not being considered for dramatic roles when every time she's done something interesting, like people are always like, oh God, she's so good. And I was like, yeah, but, but, you know, give her a role. You know, there's, there's so many other, there's so many roles over the last 10 years. I was like, you know, she'd be really good in that. I just don't think that people are thinking about her for that, for the same reason. She's kind of good in that romantic comedy. She's your best friend. For women, they see something in her that doesn't necessarily separate her from them.

1:31:07They feel closer to her in some way. But I think that that was, in this role, crucial because they feel that, and then she has this moment that changes everything. And now you have, you have an entire audience that is now going through it with her because of that kind of accessibility that she opens up in people. It's, it's, it's been interesting to watch women and men, but I mean, particularly women talk to me after seeing the movie saying how much they felt like her, even though the exact thing did not happen, that they couldn't help but feel this connection to specifically Kate Hudson going through it.

1:31:49And I found that very interesting. It's fascinating too, because she's so soulful and almost famous. A music movie, a movie about like what music does to you. And that's a very dramatic part. And you'd think that that would have set her up for a lot of parts like this, but she has not done a lot of work like this. And I thought she was quite good. One thing that really struck me about the movie that I quite liked that I'll use as kind of a segue to asking you a broader question about your career is it's a good really good movie about class there's not a lot of um studio hollywood films that are about being at that station in america in the middle of the country or in a place like where you live that you know it's there's just not a lot of time for being lower middle class and what how what that looks like on screen because it's not glamorous not fun it's hard it makes people think about what's hard about their lives sometimes too and that's one of the reasons why we don't see it as often but that did have me thinking about a slightly different version of class where you are in like a class of filmmaker that is pretty tricky that like has gets defined as like the middle class of filmmaking right where you make totally you know dramas and and films with a lot of music and they have stars and they get released in theaters and they have you know they have heft but they're not 350 million dollar movies right and that's the expectation is not for them to be that and we're in a time where like that's really being encroached upon as I'm sure you know better than anybody so like oh yeah I was hoping you could talk maybe about like living in that space and wanting to make those kinds of movies in this time in movie making well I find it even it's such a interesting topic that I wish more people would talk about because I think we're heading there in a in a real substantial way like I I can't help but think look focus has been absolutely amazing they really empower their filmmakers.

1:33:34They stay out of their way to some extent. And when I say stay out of their way, they're there to help me. There have been times where it's like, I need just a little bit more. And they were like, of course you need a little bit more. It makes sense for what you're talking about. They're incredibly reasonable. But we started at Universal. It was Donna Langley and Peter Kramer who kind of like said, we think we see what you're doing here when everybody was saying no, but, but then it moves to focus. And in doing so, I think what it was is that universal makes huge, you know, plus$100 million movies really, and focuses in a different bracket.

1:34:16And, and I, where some people would have said like, oh, that's too bad that you have to, to do that. And I was like, no, actually I, I really want to make this work because I think this is kind of where Hollywood is going. We've got to make movies for less. I mean, it's just, it's just, we can complain about it, but it's just true, you know? So I, I'm not saying that I probably one day couldn't do a hundred million dollar movie. I don't know, but I prefer to stay in this space because usually the kind of content that I'm attracted to exists better in this space. you talk about working class, I think there's even something else going on, which is like, there really is this, as someone who's lived in, I have to live in LA a lot because of work sometimes, but there is kind of this Hollywood bubble, and it is existing within itself until something tells you that it's different.

1:35:15So just today I was watching the latest episode of Landman. I don't know if you all are watching that. I don't watch it, but I'm aware of it based on many people here at The Ringer. Okay. So I'm sure everybody at the ringer talked about, but, but I'm watching like a whole sequence that takes place like at, like this, this expo of like, you know, people that are working in the oil industry and also like, you know, just, you know, trucks and expos that I've kind of been to here in Tennessee. And I remember turning to someone and saying like, you know, no one's showing this part of the country in anything.

1:35:47Like, I mean, when was the last time you saw anything remotely like this in a movie or television. And it's really because Taylor Sheridan is doing it. But I remember being at Paramount at a time when they were saying like, you can't do anything with cowboy hats. You can't do anything that's remotely Southern. And I was like, why? And they're like, it's the same reason that every other studio doesn't want to do it. It's specifically middle America and that's harder to sell internationally. And I was like, okay, but people like in New York and Jersey can have New York Jersey accents and that can sell internationally, they're like, it's easier because it's less American and more accessible to global audiences.

1:36:28And the same reasoning goes into movies with predominantly black cast. So I'm doing movies with like Southern black people in it and like, it's just a boom, boom, you know? But I find it interesting that like now huge deals are being made with Taylor Sheridan and everything because he just, he took the space. And then you look at, I mean, I've made two pictures at Tyler Perry's studios. So there's people that kind of like go to that place and class and country and they decide just to start making stuff. And then the money starts rolling in and everybody starts kind of scratching their head going like, well, wait a minute, how did this happen?

1:37:10And I think that there's something to that. And I'm hoping that again, kind of like what, like you said earlier about regionalism, like I do think that there's a conversation to have about like, are we kind of killing ourselves a little bit in the industry because we're making these assumptions of what the globe wants and no one is necessarily coming from a place of real authenticity. Couldn't agree more. I'm gonna use that as an opportunity to pivot to my regionalism, which is New York and the New York Mets. um i i read tell me if this is true but i read that your grandfather was marvelous marv thrown berry is that true it is true it is true okay it's true so i what what was that like and what did that do to you i'm so glad we're talking about this you're the only person i really wanted to talk to about this um i grew up knowing my great here's the first memory i have of my grandfather My mother crying on the phone.

1:38:12I think I'm like six. And she's saying, don't do it, daddy. They're going to make fun of you. She's crying. Don't do it. Don't do it. And then she starts talking to my dad. It's like, they're flying him to New York. They said that they're going to buy him a suit. Now, looking back, my granddad is not in baseball anymore. He is an overweight, bald guy that goes fishing in his cabin. But Lightbeer from Miller wanted him to be in a commercial where he kind of talked about how, you know, at times bad of a baseball player he was, you know, and he kind of had these spectacular bungles. But as you, if you know anything about the Mets history, like he was beloved.

1:38:56He was, he, they, there were shirts, you know, I mean, he was an icon to the franchise. Yes, absolutely. Some, I mean, I think it was Jimmy Breslin said, he's the, he's the first Met. He's really what the Met experience is about. So then later on, I think I was like watching the Olympics like a year later. And there's Marv, there's my granddaddy looking right at the camera going, you should take four Marv Throneberries just to get one Carl Farrella baseball card. You know, the light beer from Miller called me. And I couldn't believe it. But then it spawned this whole light beer gang where Billy Martin and Madden and then Mickey Spillane.

1:39:36I don't know if you remember these commercials where they would argue, it tastes great, less filling, tastes great, less filling. And at the end of every commercial, there'd be Marv turning right to the camera going, I still don't know why they asked me to do this commercial. And so, granted, Marv was like flying everywhere being a celebrity. So I did not grow up with him being a baseball person. I grew up where I knew that he was going out and basically making his money opening up car shows. So all my life growing up in theater, I was always kind of like encouraged that, oh, you're going to be big in sports.

1:40:12And like everybody in my family went to UT Knoxville. So every picture I'm bathed in orange. and I just wasn't good at sports, but I was good at dancing. Hence the footloose, right? But I got into children's theater and I felt really awkward about sports. And I remember even growing up with kind of this chip on my shoulder that I'm not into sports. I'm into theater. I'm into movies. And movies even became that thing that I think that people do with sports where it's like, you're going to really sit here and tell me that ET is the best Steven Spielberg movie over Raiders of Lost Ark? You're really going to tell that?

1:40:53So, so it kind of occupies that same thing that I think people have with like baseball players or pitchers or basketball players. And, and it really wasn't until I started filming Song Sung Blue that I was going through, like, cause the movies about this, I was like, Craig, you got to have a real, like honest talk with yourself about you and your relationship to sports and why you feel this way. And maybe you got to like get over this and you need to take a big bite into something. So for a good two months, I was on a research level exploration as to should I be a Yankee or should I be a Met? And I was like, yeah, but my granddaddy played for both teams.

1:41:38And everybody in New York was like, because I edited the movie, they're like, no, no, no, no, that's not how this works. You got to declare. And I had like people going like, yeah, but look at the, look at the Yankees history. And I, I, I read everything about baseball. I really dove in, you know, watch the Ken Burns documentary over and over again. And there was this moment and it's interesting because you kind of brought it up a little bit earlier where I think that I was listening to some podcast and somebody was talking about me and they go, you know what, let me tell you something about Greg Brewer.

1:42:06You know, he's not like a, an Academy award winning guy. He hasn't had like that big hit, but he's a good solid, you know, hits the ball, you know, right over second. He's, he's a good, you know, get on base type of player. And, and I was like, yeah, I'm a Met. It hit me so clear where I was like, wait a minute, Craig, you live in Memphis. You, you constantly are dealing with almost getting there with things. You're not Nashville. You It's like not Jay-Z. You know what I mean? They're incredibly important. I think that they have. So I spent the season diving into the Mets. I went to 12 games and it was fascinating.

1:42:51Like I would read every day. I was like, wow, people really are booing Soto. I mean, at the top of the season, then August hit. And it's like, what happened? It's like, I even was thinking like, oh, they just needed me. Like everything's going great. and then like August hit and like Soto was the only one really that people were like cheering him but then like everything started to kind of like fall apart and so and then I got to the end of this and people that were like you know fans that had worked on my crew they were like this is what we told you this is that heartbreak that we were talking about and I have to say though I still prefer the heartbreak and uncertainty than if I went with a different team.

1:43:39And I'm beginning to understand my granddaddy more. Like my granddaddy actually is known for kind of being a loser, even though he wasn't. He actually has a really good record. I urge you to look it up. But he himself kind of embraced those elements in himself. And when people made fun of him, especially people from New York would make fun of him, he was really good at one upping them on making fun of himself and kind of that Dolly Parton self-deprecating Southern way that suddenly everybody just fell in love with. And so for the first time in my life, like I was thinking, am I closer to Marv than I ever thought I was when I thought I was like distant from him?

1:44:21And especially being in New York and thinking like, man, he was 18 playing the polo grounds. Can you imagine stepping up to the plate 18, especially, especially from where I knew he was from, which is like the country. I mean, he was from Fisherville, Tennessee, you know, he didn't like have, and I started to go like, yeah, it's kind of like what happened to you. You know, it's like, I started to feel this connection to him and just feeling this connection to baseball and especially the Mets and going to the games. And like, there's nothing better than taking that seven line in and seeing everybody like getting on and you're going like, oh man, this is like a different energy than anything else.

1:44:58It's, and, and it's just, I've been to both stadiums. I've been in both games. There is a working class feel. No doubt. At Citi Field. And Citi Field, that's just different. Yeah. And, and so that's my, that the Mets kind of oddly rescued me this last year, even though there's plenty to, uh, there's plenty to complain about. I mean, you're incredibly brave for signing up for this. I would love to know, let's like cut to five years from now, if you have had to endure five seasons like the one we just had, how you're feeling about the choice you've made, I'd be curious to know because it is a hard fandom.

1:45:35Like it actually is quite, and I know that you are like drawn to this and the characters that you portray are people who have to earn it, you know, and there's no handouts, right? Like it's like, you got to go through some shit to get to the other side, but boy, it feels like we've been going through some shit for 40 years, Craig. Like it's been a hard time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, just take comfort that it's been that since the beginning. I know. I know. With your grandfather. It really has. Like with Marvelous Marv. And he wasn't called Marvelous Marv until he was a Met. Like it was a funny thing that he wrote on his locker because he did not feel particularly marvelous.

1:46:11And yet it rescued him. I mean, even when he was kind of, you know, didn't have money in Fisherville, Tennessee, after his baseball career ended, suddenly the Mets came to his rescue by way of being kind of a known loser to some extent. You know, it's wild. He's got the famous story with Casey Stengel, you know, when, which is also another, I mean, this is really the movie that should be made. I love that Casey Stengel is like fired from the Yankees for basically being old, you know? I mean, he was winning, you know? You're telling the story of the Breslin book of can anybody here play this game?

1:46:51Can play this game. Yeah. Yeah. And then he puts together this team that's just resoundingly bad. And yet they're selling out their stadiums. And the Yankees are struggling to do that at theirs. And people are scratching their head just going like, what's going on? Why is it that this team that is really in the record book is fighting for the record where it's to be like the worst team ever is connecting with this crowd, you know? And there's the famous story that I think is Marv tripled, brought in two runs that won the game. And then he was called out for not touching second. And then Casey Stengel goes out to the ump and says like, what are you doing?

1:47:34And the ump's like, Casey, he didn't touch first either. And so it's like, it's just like, it couldn't write itself better. My favorite story about Marv is that they had like, I can't remember. I think it was like a couch store that put like a bullseye on the left side of, I think in left field. And then if you hit that, then they were going to get a free boat. Right. But then Jimmy, but then Casey didn't like that because he was like, no, all my, all my hitters are going to start trying to hit left field. Like, and so they're like, we're going to put one in right field too. So they now have two bullseyes.

1:48:06Marv hits it the most. And he didn't even try to. And then like, congratulations, Marv, you won this boat. And then he's like, okay, well, you know, I live in Fisherville. How am I going to get it out there? They're like, so you're going to need to rent a place in New York to store the boat. And he's like, and I have to do this. So now he's in for renting this storage facility to house the boat. And then they come up to him and say, and you need to pay taxes on it. And he's like, what do you mean? It's a gift. And they go, no, you earned it. You earned it. Because he's like, let me get this straight.

1:48:33I just want a boat that I can't take home. I'm paying for it. And I got to pay taxes on it. So even when he won as a Met, he lost. So you'll have to give me some advice as to like how to handle it. Because how long, I mean, how long have you been? My entire life. My father grew up a Giants fan. And when the Giants left, he jumped right on board in that year, in that first year of the Mets. Very willingly, very happily. I think he was nine years old. And so he was a Marv fan and told me all about those teams. and obviously got to live through as a teenager, 69. 69. And, you know, was a diehard fan for my entire life.

1:49:16And he is, like, really starting to give up on the team in his, you know, approaching his late 70s. I'm still in. I'm still in. It is my favorite sport. It is my favorite team. But I feel a little beat up, Craig. I do feel a little beat up. This has been a tough couple of months with the way that things have unfurled. And we're talking on the day when Jeff McNeil has been salary dumped. So, you know, it's, we're going through like a real exorcism right now. And we're learning all kinds of like juicy stuff. Like I'm learning about like Lindor and Soto having a beef. And am I hearing this right?

1:49:52That Trump was actually like a thing with McNeil? So say Mike Francesa. Yeah. The famed radio host says that he was told that what came between Brandon Nimmo and Francisco Lindor was Donald Trump. So, you know, again, these are all ripe fodder for your films. Like, just think about how you could really extrapolate the lives of ballplayers and the things that come between them when they're in search of greatness. Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying. Like, if there's definitely going to be a sports movie I should do, I mean, this is definitely it. Because it's so wild how much misery is around this team.

1:50:30And everybody that's a fan seems to embrace it in this kind of like interesting badge. But I kind of love it. I feel it feels I mean, the look, I do follow the Memphis Grizzlies and they're kind of a little bit like that. They're always like that team in the playoffs. That's kind of like that fly that's just bothering the team that, you know, is going to be moving on. They're like, would Memphis just please just fucking die? Would you leave us alone? Stop like we'd like to just win this and move on. But until you're in the FedEx forum at a Memphis Grizzlies game and you hear 20 ,000 people, including like blue-haired old ladies, chanting whoop that trick from my movie Hustle and Flow, you don't know what fury is.

1:51:08That's magic. Yeah, I wish we had our version of that at Citi Field. Craig, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. Have you seen, have you been watching movies? You're, you know, you're an Academy voter, I assume. I am an Academy voter. um, let's see the, the last great thing that I've seen. Um, I, uh, really love sentimental value. What did you like about it? Well, maybe it's hitting. Um, I think there was something about the fact that I have a 17 year old daughter that is, uh, I just, it's so funny. She came to me at the top of the year and she said, you're not going to make it to my graduate, my high school graduation, aren't you?

1:51:51And I was like, why would you say that? She goes, because you're doing Snoop Dogg. Like you're going to be doing this movie next year and you're probably going to be shooting while I'm graduating. And I was like, that may be possible, honey. And like, I didn't, she suddenly has this like agency and knowledge about things that it just kind of rattles. I don't know if you have a daughter or not, but like they do, but she's four. So she doesn't know when I'm not going to be around. Just wait. Cause they just can look right into your soul. they like their it's like their every wife mother and girlfriend you've ever had but there's just nothing that that's going to stop them from being honest and and it's just it's it's amazing but startling and she said i want you to direct the play that i just got cast in in the high school it's 12 angry men which is called 12 angry jurors and i was like honey i i owe two scripts i got like a movie that's coming out in december and she just kind of like said yeah but you know i need you to do this.

1:52:43And so I, I, you know, I directed the play and to be a director where your daughter is the lead and knowing that, that you're seeing things in them where it's like, yeah, I'm so sorry that like, this is kind of what we do. We kind of take our pain and misery and we do things with it. You know, we, we act with it, we write with it, we direct with it. And it, and it creates kind I mean, I have a much better relationship, obviously, than the one in that movie. But I couldn't help but feel, oh, that's the horrible thing about the multi-generational connections and trauma that family kind of was going through.

1:53:25And yet at the same time, everybody's using it, you know? I mean, even the opening scene where she's just like, it's taking everything for her to get up out on that stage. Like, that's what I love about actors is that, you know, I know that we treat them as if they've got this privileged life, but we want them to stand on this mark and we want them to cry sometimes all day. And then everything that they're committing to us is forever. And I see the toll that's taken on them. And so there was something about that movie that I think just kind of spoke to that relationship. relationship and and it's almost like a you mourn the fact that your child is doing something that's kind of similar to what you're doing or they have the same kind of passion and you almost want to miss you almost want to direct them in another way but uh so i i found that movie and then i'm i'm stumping for i keep on saying i'll say it till i'm blue in the face but i just thought that weapons was one of the the great movies of this year and i think we all need to start having a conversation about horror that, um, it's still being kind of segregated a little bit in awards talk.

1:54:38And, and, uh, so, uh, yeah, yeah, I would say that's a sentimental, uh, was the last thing I saw that I, that I, I really liked. And, uh, but, uh, I've, I've got to, I've got to see some more, uh, now that the holidays are here. Two great picks, two of my favorites of the year. What a, what a pleasure talking to you, Craig. Thank you for doing this. Oh, thank you. Thank you.

1:55:01Okay, thank you to Craig Brewer. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. We will be back later this week with the final film in our 25 for 25 series, which I'm excited about. This is our last recording. This is it. Of 2025. Yeah. And? Barring, like, I don't know what. Chris Ryan over the weekend was trying to imagine situations in which we'd have to do an emergency podcast. Oh, Eileen asked me about this. Yeah. So what would have to happen? I feel like, you know, if Trump seizes Warner Brothers, then I guess, I really hope that doesn't happen for a multitude of reasons.

1:55:41Oh my God. But that would be pretty bad. That would be bad. Gosh. And then, you know. You know what my go-to is. Go ahead. My go-to is always when Jack Nicholson dies. Yeah. When Jack Nicholson dies and I have to just record for 12 straight hours. And I'll tell you something. I've been thinking about this. I have been like reluctant in the last few years to not even like think about doing episodes about Jack like not locate movies of his that are important like when we get onto a movie of his like we didn't talk really about as good as it gets when we talked about James L. Brooks we didn't really talk about him we talked about anger management with Adam Sandler I'm kind of like storing it up you know like he was my first favorite actor okay and I'm not trying to will anything negative into his existence you don't need to like do it now I know And it's like, have I even talked about him on the rewatchables?

1:56:28I guess on A Few Good Men we talk about him. We talked about him on Something's Gotta Give. Something's Gotta Give. I mean, and he's magnificent. Something's Gotta Give. But I feel like there's a lot inside me about him. But are you going to want to do an emergency podcast? No. Yeah. But we would build out a suite of coverage. Right, exactly. Well, that's an uplifting note to go on. Fuck. Thank you so much for bringing that to us. You did a great job this year. Thanks, you too. Thank you so much. Yeah. We'll see you in two days.