Garbage Crime Returns! The Post-‘Heat’ Movie Awards and ‘Crime 101’ With Bart Layton!

11:48Chris Ryan:I did wonder whether or not he was aware of his importance to us before his past. I don't get that impression based on his general manner.

11:55Sean Fennessey:You never know. To me, also The Ripper from Last Action Hero. I'll never forget him. Kane from Robocop 2. In our youth, I think he was a very present figure in movies. And then even more recently, Anomalisa. He famously was everyone else, except for the two lead characters that all those voices in that film. You probably never saw Anomalisa, did you? I did see Anomalisa. You did?

12:13Chris Ryan:Yeah. Wow. Animation. I remember I saw it. yeah I saw it in the theater for a screening I think

12:18Sean Fennessey:you know what he's really fucking scary in House of the Devil

12:21Chris Ryan:oh fuck I forgot about that

12:23Sean Fennessey:the Tai West movie where yes a babysitter comes over and it's his home where he's babysitting where she's babysitting that's right and yeah he's effective in that I remember he's in Damages for like three seasons quality FX show that's sort of forgotten but now with Rose Byrne's Oscar nomination maybe more people rediscovering it he was Frankenstein in The Monster Squad big career oh yeah big career

12:43Chris Ryan:and he directed What Happened Was, which is a film he made with Karen Silas and is one of the great, is that late 90s? I think it's like 94. 94, mid-90s indie films. And if you have a chance to check that out, he's phenomenal. Great movie. And in a lot of ways is like a very emblematic or signature work of his.

13:02Sean Fennessey:Yeah, you can find it on Radiance. They put out a great edition of that movie.

13:06Chris Ryan:I'm going to miss both of these actors as faces. I think I've been noticing as I've been watching TV and movies this year, just how rare it is to come across people who actually look like real people anymore. Because I think people start acting very young, we're able to take care of ourselves. If you're going into something where you're on camera, you're probably worried about your skin and your hair and your teeth and all this stuff. And I kind of miss guys who look like Duvall and Tom Noonan. They're just made... Bald guys? Well, I mean, there's part of it is that, but it's part of it is just like their eyes or like the way that they're wrinkled or the way that they walk.

13:44Chris Ryan:And it's not overly trained. It's not overly sanded down. And any movie that they're in becomes, it feels a little bit more real because they're in it. Like watching Duvall slick back the side parts of his balding hair. That's very good, Frank. It's a big, didn't hit.

14:03Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I know what you mean. I was reading a bit about Noonan and that he was a basketball player and he said that playing basketball made him more comfortable performing because he had been in environments where big crowds were looking at him. And that he was not trained to be, you know, he didn't become a professional actor until he was a little bit older in his 20s. And I think that also allowed him to develop a little bit more of that ordinary oddness that you're describing. You know, he seemed like kind of a strange cat in an interesting way. And yeah, we don't make them quite that way.

14:33Chris Ryan:And then Manhunter, a guy who has a cat. So that's cool. Among other proclivities, yes.

14:38Sean Fennessey:Um, so yeah, we'll miss both of those actors a lot. Uh, let's talk about Paramount. Okay.

14:46Sean Fennessey:So, Paramount's takeover bid was rejected in favor of Netflix's some months ago. You and I both talked about this many times on our podcasts. I would say, and I insinuated this a couple of times when we talked about it, amongst the people that I know who know shit, they were always like, don't give up on Paramount. This is very much still a possibility that Paramount is going to strong arm their way into acquiring Warner Brothers. And Netflix has gone through all the paces. Ted Sarandos testified before Congress. Paramount's still keeping up the fight. So they're in the middle of this seven-day window right now where they can essentially raise their bid and show why this is a better deal overall for their WB shareholders.

15:30Chris Ryan:and they have identified a cohort of activist investor or shareholders within the Warner Brothers umbrella that are open to this. Yes.

15:41Sean Fennessey:Yes. And I think with the idea that they're dissatisfied by the potentiality of the Netflix sale and also the idea that, you know, the Netflix sale is for$83 billion. The Paramount bid is for$108 billion. Where that money is coming from and how it's collected has been a subject of much debate. I'm not an expert on that, so I won't try to get into it. But as I have started rereading more stories about this, I just want to say that this doesn't have to happen. And it's going to happen almost certainly, but I think it's important for people to understand that the kind of like cynicism of finality that is going on around this conversation, I find very depressing.

16:19Sean Fennessey:And for whatever reason, over its 100-year history, Warner Brothers has been the centerpiece in the hot potato of media asset. So every time there's a changing of the guard technologically, economically in America, this is a company that gets passed off. The Warner family obviously started Warner Brothers. They held the company for 30-plus years. And then they sold it to a company called Seven Arts in the 1960s, which was run in part by famous movie producer Ray Stark. And Seven Arts was like, we're going to make more movies. They were sort of like how we would think of like Legendary or New Regency or Skydance.

17:00Sean Fennessey:That's the kind of business that they were.

17:02Chris Ryan:Being movies with the potential for like box office success?

17:04Sean Fennessey:Yes, but also that they were a production company that also did film financing. Okay. And that they were like, what we do is we backstop Lolita, West Side Story, whatever happened to Baby Jane. They made a ton of hammer horror films. They were just getting money into movies all the time and they tried to buy the company and it didn't work. and they couldn't run it and they couldn't successfully manage it. And so they sold it to this holding company, Kinney National Company, which then eventually became Warner Communications. And they held it all the way until Time Inc. bought it in 1990. And that obviously was a fiasco.

17:39Sean Fennessey:In 2018, AT &T buys it. That's a fiasco. In 2022, Discovery buys it and they buy it to sell it.

17:45Chris Ryan:There was an AOL merger somewhere in there, right? That was the Time Inc. Time Inc., AOL,

17:49Sean Fennessey:trying to like make all that stuff fit together. Um, and all of those instances, none of them were for the good of movies except for the seven arts one. That was the one where they were like, what we want to do is make more and better movies. Everything else was like, this is asset management and it's okay to understand that that's how the business works. But when you look at the history of Warner brothers, which is such an important movie studio to the thing that we love. And you think about all the filmmakers who did some of their best work there that this is the movie studio of Humphrey Bogart's great works.

18:22Sean Fennessey:It's Clint Eastwood. It's Stanley Kubrick. It's Christopher Nolan for the first two thirds of his career. Um, I find the, like the, the only way we're talking about this, the only reason we're talking about the studio and its legacy as this, you know, hot potato to be the most depressing thing in the world. And I, there being no good outcome and everyone accepting that there's no good outcome. I'm, I, I don't know what to do with the feeling that I have about it. And we can pretend like this is fantasy football or, you know, we're like report, you called Bond on the Rewatchables like a trade deadline scenario where we're waiting to find out who the next Bond is.

19:01Sean Fennessey:I think for individual movies and franchises, that's fun. But for something this big, I don't know. I just, something feels really lost here culturally. And like, I'm hosting a movie pod, you know? But I just kind of got to get it out of my system.

19:16Chris Ryan:We were coming off of a year or two where Warner Brothers kind of showed the way forward for the kinds of movies that we want to talk about, which are director-focused, director-driven, but with mass-wide appeal and could say something about the world we live in. Yep. And they're on a heater, and we don't want to see that end, regardless of what company winds up owning it. I think there's a lot of political ramifications that come out of whichever way this goes. I too feel like the things that I have read suggest that Paramount thinks they're getting it. Like they're behaving as if once this part happens, it's just going to get waved through by the federal government.

20:03Sean Fennessey:Yeah, and that may well be true. And I think from a media perspective, it's kind of a nightmare. it's a disastrous possibility that four of the most significant news powers in broadcasting would all be aligned under one company and then also be potentially at the heels of the president I don't think that's a good outcome at all the Netflix issue Amanda and I talked about at length in terms of what that acquisition means Ted Sarandos has been working very hard including on the town this week talking about PVOD yes communicating all of the ways in which he will maintain the structures that have obviously been so successful for Warner Brothers film in the last 18 months.

20:41Sean Fennessey:I reserve the right to be skeptical about all of those things, especially over time. But you never know.

20:46Chris Ryan:Also, I reserve the right for there to be a different federal government at some point. And the one thing that's interesting about this that I don't understand is there's this week of essentially new negotiations between Paramount and Warner. And I don't really understand the timeline after that. I know that there's a huge fee that Warner would have to pay Netflix if the deal falls apart at this point. Paramount has said it would pay that for Warner Brothers. I'm sure there's going to be a ton of other lawsuits.

21:13Sean Fennessey:I think it's$2.5 billion. Yeah.

21:15Chris Ryan:There would be a ton of other lawsuits going around anyway about this. But I don't know whether or not midterms affects this or whether or not a lame-duck Trump administration, if that does come to pass, affects this. Whether or not the idea that a different administration being in power would maybe affect the likelihood of this happening or affect the tenor of the way Paramount is talking about things behind the scenes? I have no idea.

21:42Sean Fennessey:I don't know either. I pitched this around to a couple of people this week, the exact framework that you suggested, which is like Trump will be out of office in whatever, two and a half years in theory. And particularly if there's a shift in terms of the House, the Senate, the mood of the country over the course of that next two and a half years politically, would that change the posture of the Ellison family entirely in terms of what their media strategy in terms of owning these properties is. We don't know. We don't know. Some people don't trust that it would. Some people do. Some people think it won't matter.

22:14Sean Fennessey:Like our political atmosphere will not infect our media in quite the same way. You know, easy for me to say, I guess.

22:22Chris Ryan:If you look at the sort of tenor of a lot of major, say social media corporations, corporations in general in 2020, 2021, versus the way that they behave now,

22:33Sean Fennessey:they go where the wind blows. I tend to feel that way, but I'm not sure if that's enough to feel. My point is, is that I keep saying this. I wish this wasn't happening. I just wish this wasn't happening. And Warner Brothers is very obviously, before it was debt loaded for all of these mergers and acquisitions over the years, is a solvent business. It's very clear that what they're doing makes a lot of sense. We're kind of in a bit of an HBO re-Apex right now. You know, they're on their fifth consecutive show. Like, they've turned industry season four into a hit. That's an amazing thing that kind of only that network can still do when you load that on top of, you know, all the Abdi and DeLuca era WB movies have been doing.

23:12Sean Fennessey:And they did it all over again with Wuthering Heights, you know, a movie I didn't really care for, but like no doubt worked and made$100 million in five days. That's pretty amazing for, you know, a 250-year-old novel adaptation. so I'm just disappointed and this will be my last sour note before we talk about crime in the movies because that's a joyful thing for us but I've just been watching this news happen and listening to podcasts and reading news articles and thinking like the collective acceptance of this story is deeply frustrating

23:45Chris Ryan:Do you chalk that up to there being just way more stakeholders who have something invested in the idea of transactional business like this happening, then there are people who are like, I really just want the best possible movies and TV shows to get made by these companies. Or, I don't know, is it like endemic of like the fact that like these studios are part of portfolios for highly diversified corporations now and this kind of stuff is where modern corporations eventually wind up is like to be, they either get eaten or eat.

24:18Sean Fennessey:It's a very big question and probably worthy of like a years-long seminar study. But in general, I think it speaks to the fact that those who seek to acquire industries that are built on the backs of artists and artwork very rarely are in the best service of those people and that they are like commodifiers. And that makes a lot of sense. You know, we work at Spotify. This show is licensed by Netflix. I'm aware of all of the inherent hypocrisy of this conversation. but I hold a lot of what movies can do to the culture very dear. And it's like last year was an interesting version of like, it's actually still strong.

24:58Sean Fennessey:It actually still matters and it's still powerful. And so anything that feels like potentially stripping that away, I find dispiriting. But if this were, you know, if this were the press box, we would talk about it in a different way. And I think Brian and David and Joel will talk about it differently when this comes to pass. But many people said to me when Discovery came in on Warner Brothers that it was like bought to sell. Yes. And bought to sell sucks.

25:24Chris Ryan:Well, I think probably that once the dreams of John Malone, that they would have essentially a fully integrated telecom business, broadband business with things being pumped through the broadband into people's telephones. Yes. Once that kind of fell apart and the idea that we would all just like have an AT &T phone and just be sitting there watching Game of Thrones, which was like three years solid of like, isn't this amazing? Yeah. Isn't this what we've always dreamed of? And then like, I think a bunch of different industries kind of blew that out of the water. Now it's like that this is the only endpoint for these guys.

25:59Chris Ryan:It's like they don't do it because they love movies and they just want to have. I mean, I think that was the dream of Zazzle. It was like maybe this guy just wants to sit at Robert Evans's house and rub shoulders with people.

26:08Sean Fennessey:But the ironic thing is as much shit as he took for the first two and a half years of his administration, the people that he hired did what they were supposed to do. Like it worked. So why sell? That's the thing. You know, I know why. I know why. There's a huge payout coming for everyone who is materially involved at the highest level for that. I get it. I'm not I'm not overlooking that. but you can just kind of continue to be an icon of Hollywood if you continue to empower executives and filmmakers and TV showrunners who do this stuff well. Anyway.

26:41Chris Ryan:As the majority shareholder of the big picture, I'll keep your thoughts in mind. And I know you're a creator. I'm not trying to make money off your back, but...

26:47Sean Fennessey:Who's the worst person you could sell this show to? Chase Utley.

26:53Chris Ryan:For$1.

26:56Sean Fennessey:Do you think that Chase would cancel it immediately or keep it going in perpetuity but just force me to watch Philly's World Series DVDs.

27:03Chris Ryan:I think what he would do is make you watch Philadelphia Philly's World Series parade videos while sliding into you high.

27:14Sean Fennessey:Man, I saw Ruben Tejada just got hired somewhere and I fell for him. You know who that is, right? I do know who he is. He's a man who Chase attempted to murder. It was a baseball play. Okay. Yeah.

27:23Chris Ryan:This episode is brought to you by Tax Act. From opening credits to the final scene, TaxAct guides you through your taxes step-by-step with your maximum refund guaranteed. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts, or let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit TaxAct.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See TaxAct.com for details.

27:51Sean Fennessey:This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day-to-day, but our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think that weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW, and the other drivers out there, grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn more at VW.com. Let's talk about crime. Yeah. I don't remember the last time we talked about garbage crime. It's been a long time. We have done many iterations on our garbage episodes for those of you who have not heard them before.

28:25Chris Ryan:Did we do something after Rebel Ridge? Was there, that was Garbage Revenge?

28:30Sean Fennessey:Perhaps we did. So that's last year, right? That's early last year. And the crime was the OG. Crime was the first time that we talked about this. And maybe we've done one other crime episode as well. But we actually have a movie called Crime 101. This movie is the essence of what we were describing in so many ways. So this new film, as I mentioned, written and directed by Bart Layton, based on a novella by Don Winslow. you know, an extremely successful crime writer in his own right. It stars Chris Hemsworth, Mark Ruffalo, Barry Keoghan, Monica Barbaro, Corey Hawkins, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Nick Nolte, and Halle Berry.

29:07Sean Fennessey:That is quite a cast.

29:09Chris Ryan:It's quite mind-blowing when, you know, Jennifer Jason Leigh is showing up for one scene, essentially.

29:14Sean Fennessey:Yes, I spoke with Bart about that, and he explained how that happened. The premise is thus, a master thief and an insurance broker join forces for a big heist while a determined detective pursues them to prevent the multi-million dollar crime. So, what did you think of Crime 101?

29:32Chris Ryan:I really enjoyed myself and enjoyed watching it. It was instructive, because this is a Los Angeles crime saga in the same way that he is very self-styled as one, to think about the conclusions of both films. And without drawing too giant of like a, without painting too wide of a brush, how films have changed and how Los Angeles has changed in the ensuing decades. This is a movie that's very much about wellness and healing and is about a bunch of characters going through very Los Angeles versions of trying to get better in their lives. They're doing yoga. They're drinking smoothies. They're listening to meditation apps.

30:14Chris Ryan:They're trying to unpack their childhood trauma and find love. And so even though there is elements of like broken people trying to put themselves back together in Heat. I think it ultimately ends with staring into the abyss while Moby plays and realizing that you're just going to die alone.

30:31Sean Fennessey:Yes. Yeah, Heat is a samurai movie, right? And Crime 101 is... It's goopier. It's goopier.

30:40Chris Ryan:There's something more therapized. It's also playing by certain rules that I don't think really reveal themselves until the end because when you're watching it, you're like, oh, this is a gritty, this is shot in LA. there's some really cool shit happening. There's some great chases. There's some great set pieces. But then about midway, three quarters full through, you're like, oh, this guy's Batman. He doesn't hurt any. Like he only puts guys in headlocks. He doesn't really hurt them. You know what I mean?

31:05Sean Fennessey:Yeah, and there are villains who do the hurting. Yeah. And we can see the good versus evil. The movie is also, I think that's right on and the idea that like two key characters meeting at a yoga class is fascinating and very wise. and it's very smart about the city right now. The other way in which it's pretty smart about the city right now, I think, is that it's definitely a class-conscious movie that's like, here's what downtown looks like. Here's where unhoused people are. Here's what it's like doing business under a bridge. And also, here's what it's like on the beach. Here's what it's like in Beverly Hills.

31:35Chris Ryan:I think Halle Berry's character says, why would you live anywhere but the beach if you were going to live here?

31:39Sean Fennessey:Yeah, so there's a lot of attention paid to that. And look, there's just not a lot of movies that are shot here anymore. Forget about the state, the city of Los Angeles. are there 10 movies a year that are shot here where you're seeing this much of the city on film?

31:51Chris Ryan:I couldn't believe I didn't see this movie get filmed there's the fender bender in this movie takes place in Atwater Village Monica Barbaro and Chris Hemsworth's first date is right on the corner of Sunset and Echo Park it's in the hood it's in the hood it really is yeah

32:10Sean Fennessey:it's exciting to see that Hemsworth is an interesting cat yeah he gets a lot of flack for not being able to carry movies in which he's not Thor. He's done some really cool stuff over the years. He's also done some stuff that hasn't worked. I think stuff like Rush, Extraction, those are cool movies. And they're movies that sit on his shoulders. In the Heart of the Sea. I knew you were going to say In the Heart of the Sea. Wasn't that part of The Sea is Dope originally? Yes. It was the Black Sea and In the Heart of the Sea?

32:37Chris Ryan:Jude Law movie on a submarine was Black Sea. Yeah. And then In the Heart of the Sea is the Herman Melville hanging out on a boat thing.

32:45Sean Fennessey:Okay, so a little bit of like a... a red flag on that for why you like that movie. But you know, he's also been a part of some movies that have not worked in this way. This is a tricky part for him. It's very Neil Macaulay in a lot of ways, except it gives you backstory. It gives you a little bit of history. The other thing is that Hemsworth is doing something in his performance where it's like, is it that he's just affected by his upbringing and the challenges that he has as a kid? Is he like neurodivergent in some way? like he has a lot of tics kind of physical actions he struggles with eye contact he kind of like turns away he's very finicky in some ways it's like a it's not quite a showy performance but he's trying to tell the audience like this is not Yojimbo you know what I mean this is not the most trained calm easy living master thief he's not the man with no name no

33:38Chris Ryan:he's the foster child with scars so what do you think about him? I didn't mind it I don't know how I feel about him in, I'm going to turn down some of my inherent charm. Obviously, if you see Thor, you just can see that this guy has a kind of classic movie star charm that I don't think, I think he probably seems unsettled about because he often chooses to do much more, Black Hat's a really good example of like monosyllabic, it's just me, lone gunman out on my own. Yeah, McQueen. I took it more to be a guy who is never quite playing himself. He's always living in pre-furnished apartments that he moves quite frequently to.

34:26Chris Ryan:He, in the opening shot of him, is him trying to rid himself of all evidence of DNA, which is, you know, quite on the nose, but also very effective. So he's like getting all his hair follicles and dead skin cells off. That's like a guy who's never really one thing. and I thought as I was watching this movie in the same way maybe when some people watch Heat where they're like God if you just cut this plot line this movie would be two hours and I'd watch it once a week I felt the same way about Crime 101 where I was like you could do that too but I don't know what you'd cut I don't know what you'd cut that would take away from some of the honestly like really evident charms even if it plays certain notes that are very familiar

35:08Sean Fennessey:well it's kind of an ornate structure of characters interweaving and the whole movie needs to kind of have a convergence where all of them are kind of, you know, they find each other at the end and their plot lines cohere. So it would be very hard to remove one because you do need a detective in search of the criminal. You do need essentially this elevated accomplice in the Halle Berry character. You do need this antagonist figure in Barry Keoghan. The movie does kind of like dispense with Nick Nolte who just kind of like disappears from the movie one third of the way through. I think at a certain point, it becomes clear that there's like too much load to bear on the story in general um ruffalo fascinating that he's still doing parts like this well he's just doing it simultaneously like with task right but and he's been doing this for 20 years i mean collateral in the cut like he's always playing cops he's always playing these characters and maybe he just feels super comfortable in this in this world um he's fine in this he like adds a layer of credibility to any story like this.

36:06Sean Fennessey:Likewise for Halle Berry, who's just like, stands in for every woman who, hot woman who got hired for their looks and then was forced to use their looks in the workplace all the way up until that no longer became convenient for their bosses. Yeah. And then so she is like kind of discarded for a younger model and then that leads to her seeking a kind of revenge.

36:25Chris Ryan:She plays a character who does private insurance for incredibly rich clients who need their artwork or their events or their belongings. to have like a certain layer of insurance.

36:38Sean Fennessey:Would you say that Tate Donovan's character is the one that you related to the most in the film?

36:42Chris Ryan:I'm trying to think of like who I related to most in the movie. It's probably Barry Keoghan.

36:48Sean Fennessey:Yeah, Barry Keoghan plays another thief in more of a live wire, a loose cannon, also in contact with the fence played by Nick Nolte, who is this sort of, and it was interesting to hear Bart talk about fences that he has met and the relationships that they build with their young thieves and they kind of seek out these foster kids who don't have father figures. And then they bring them into their world and then they encourage them to potentially do jobs to create this kind of Fagin-Oliver relationship, which I thought was really interesting. The movie doesn't psychologize that stuff that much, but if you take a minute to think about it, I think it's really effective.

37:26Sean Fennessey:But Kyogen is just like, he's just playing Wayne Grow.

37:29Chris Ryan:He's playing Wayne Grow and he's playing Wayne Grow if he was in Good Time. Right, right. Like he's got the blonde hair, He's got the affectation a little bit of like, I get to be on a motocross bike the entire movie. So I wear windbreakers and a black helmet everywhere. And he is a very necessary bit of energy in this movie. Agree. Where he is the one who feels like, I don't know where this scene is going when he's on screen. Where everybody else are like, let me guess, Mark Ruffalo has got a problem with his ex-wife, but he's going to eventually through meditation and yoga and finding Halle Berry, like lose his beard and become much more self-satisfied.

38:09Chris Ryan:Barry Keoghan is in like, uh, laws of gravity in the nineties. Like he's running around. You can tell there's a scene in a grocery store where Chris Hemsworth has chased Barry Keoghan across downtown Los Angeles. Barry Keoghan gets into a car accident with his motorcycle and he winds up in the back of a convenience store, rather on the floor of a liquor store where he's just like concussed and rolling around. And it's just like, it feels more like surveillance footage than it does like a movie with Chris Hemsworth in it. He's like doing things to Hemsworth where I feel like it's even throwing Hemsworth off because he's just like, I'm not gay.

38:47Chris Ryan:I'm not gay. I'm not gay. Yeah, I do. I do. And Hemsworth is just like, Oh, all right, mate. You need to go over here.

38:52Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I think it's a testimony to him as an actor. And you know, he was in Leighton's previous film, American animals. That might've been one of the first times I ever saw him. And I was thinking about this recently with the Beatles movies where he's playing Ringo and he's not Ringo. He looks like Ringo in that photo. Sure. But his energy is, is Keith Moon. He's a maniac. He's always a maniac. Even when he's sweet in Vanshee's Amanda Sharon. He's, or John. Yes. He's, there's some definitely something kind of punk chaotic about him. I agree that he helps the movie's energy stay high because at times it can flag because you have so many kind of taciturn and wounded characters.

39:30Sean Fennessey:And a lot of times I can like bring things down. But I enjoyed him. I did feel a little bit like somebody should just shoot this guy in the face in the 43rd minute of the movie.

39:39Chris Ryan:Yes, there's a couple of moments where you're just like, why does he keep giving, why does Chris Hemsworth's character, Mike Davis, which I don't know if it was purposely named after one of the great chroniclers of Los Angeles. Yes, recently passed away,

39:51Sean Fennessey:author of City of Quartz.

39:52Chris Ryan:He just keeps being like, I've got my eye on you.

39:55Sean Fennessey:You know, doing an Aussie accent from Los Angeles.

40:00Chris Ryan:It was really funny when that character is like born and bred here, mate. Yeah.

40:05Sean Fennessey:Boy Heights. Yeah. Yeah. The tamales in there, mate. We did get Halle Berry and Mark Ruffalo. We got some Americans in there. I think. So I think the movie is pretty cool. I think especially the opening heist with the jewel thievery is so specific and unusual and so tense and well-made. And then the car chases are so good. And seeing it in the city, we did used to literally get three of these a year. We really do not anymore. So I really feel like we have to celebrate stuff like this. That being said, this almost feels like a movie that they had to beg to get it into theaters. And they did. and it got like kind of a medium response in theaters and it's going to be like one of the biggest streaming movies of the year.

40:52Sean Fennessey:I think when it goes to Amazon, it's going to be fucking enormous.

40:55Chris Ryan:Yeah, because as a two and a half hour and change movie, it is, I hate saying that people can do this, but it is the kind of like, you can watch it over two nights if you wanted to. It's not the end of the world. It's funny, like the entire premise of us being here today is to talk about garbage heat and movies influenced by heat. But the more that I was thinking about Crime 101, it was almost like garbage shortcuts. The Don Winslow text is slightly more like these disparate lives in Los Angeles that intersect in places, but the LA underworld, you know, it's sucking normal type people into it and everything like that.

41:30And there is like an element in the beginning of the movie where it's a different kind of filmmaking experience where you're like, here's Halle Berry on the freeway, but then it goes across the lanes to see Mark Ruffalo going that way.

41:42Chris Ryan:and it's like this idea that perhaps it's a little bit more curious about everyday LA life before it gets entirely diamond heisty. It was an interesting alternative reality for this movie, but ultimately down to Nick Nolte is essentially the John Voight character. As you said, the Barry Keoghan character is essentially Wayne Grow. Neil McCauley is the Chris Hemsworth character.

42:04Sean Fennessey:I haven't mentioned Monica Barbaro, who is very much playing Edie. Monica Barbaro coming off an Oscar nomination, I think her first part, I just want to say she has the juice. She's excellent in this movie. That's like easily the most thinly written part in the movie. She's like four scenes and she's incredible in all of them.

42:21Chris Ryan:Yes.

42:22Sean Fennessey:She's just so watchable. You're so invested in her as a person, which is actually quite different from the archetypal characters that are in the movie throughout, even though she's less well-written. It's interesting. I'm really excited to see what she does in the future.

42:35Chris Ryan:I don't even know. I don't know what technique she studies, but if you want an example of kind of what we were talking about, Duvall. Watch her in the fender bender scene where she's like just doing this kind of a weirdly written scene because it's like Chris Hemsworth gets out of a car. He's like, you want to get a dinner?

42:52Sean Fennessey:Paul Hogan gets out of a car. Yeah. That's not a knife, Monica.

42:58Chris Ryan:She just does like five things. You're like, oh, like while they're having the most banal conversation.

43:04Sean Fennessey:Yeah.

43:04Chris Ryan:And she's interesting. She's engaged. Yeah, I agree.

43:07Sean Fennessey:I really like her. Okay. Before we get into our proper state of garbage crime and post heat awards, let's power rank the freeways in Los Angeles. Okay. You said one-on-one is your least favorite. Least favorite?

43:21Chris Ryan:The one-on-one-one-ten interchange in downtown Los Angeles, where you're coming down off of the one-on-one downtown Los Angeles is on your left. You're doing 60 in Sean's case, probably faster and nine lanes are merging and people are trying to get far right and far left to get to the 110 at the same time is always just to like say a big prayer close your eyes blind blast shield down and just let the force take you so you're saying you you don't look when you're changing i just fucking hate that merch okay you know what i mean it's just like i just i just think that we could have done better as a community i agree uh when you

43:56Sean Fennessey:look back at a film like la confidential you see that the designs of these roadways we did not imagine that the population of this city would triple or quadruple when you're reading like

44:05Chris Ryan:Joan Didion essays from the 70s. And she's like, I was on the Hollywood Hills and I just puttered on all over to Santa Monica in 20 minutes. I was like, what the fuck?

44:13Sean Fennessey:When's the last time you just plopped down on your chaise lounge and read some Joan Didion? Just curious. It's probably been a couple of years,

44:19Chris Ryan:but she's a big author for me. You'll just tuck in every once in a while, you know, slouching towards Bethlehem. Just slouch. I am curious. I'm a big fan of her novels. Thanks for asking. Play it as it lays, et cetera. As am I. Democracy, the last thing told me. She's one of the greats.

44:35Sean Fennessey:I heard some slander on Jam Session about her. Please settle down. Unsubscribed. Unbelievable. So the best highway by far, by far, in Los Angeles is the two. Of course it is. The two is elite.

44:48Chris Ryan:That's only built for Cuban links. That's right. That's where the heads, you and me, we go out. You can get close to 90 up there.

44:57Sean Fennessey:I wouldn't do that, but yeah.

44:59Chris Ryan:I mean, you could.

44:59Sean Fennessey:You could. You could.

45:01Chris Ryan:Barry Kjogan could. Put rap music on and drive into a mountain. It is the best road.

45:04Sean Fennessey:That's the best road. We're never on the 405. Everyone who has to be on the 405 wants to drive into the ocean at the end of the day. And I understand that. We're fortunate that we've been Eastsiders the entirety of our time here.

45:17Chris Ryan:Is there a tunnel coming? I heard there's like, they're thinking about building a tunnel that would like - That's extremely ominous. To what? I heard there was some like big project where they were going to alleviate some of the traffic on the 405.

45:28Sean Fennessey:Did you hear that from the judge from Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Who told you this?

45:31Chris Ryan:The judge from Blood Marie and Dolby.

45:35Sean Fennessey:some evil judges in the history of film and books.

45:38Chris Ryan:I'm not a big fan of the grapevine. I'm not a big fan of the five. Okay.

45:41Sean Fennessey:Yeah. The five, five scary, uh, one 34. I have some time for, yeah, you know, wrong time of day. You get trapped up there.

45:49Chris Ryan:You know, one of the things I, I really have a problem with on the one 34 and even on the one on one, if you're going really far North outside of the LA is God, that son will fuck you up. This gets in your eyes and you're just like, I have no idea what's going to happen next. I'm listening to Chris Long. My eyes closed.

46:11Sean Fennessey:What's going on with you and Chris Long?

46:12Chris Ryan:I just think he makes the best podcast in America. It's like four hours long. They go through every game. It's a football podcast called Greenlight.

46:21Sean Fennessey:Our listeners know. Don't talk down to the listeners. Do you think all the people were like,

46:25Chris Ryan:I was promised Tom, Mom. What's going on?

46:28Sean Fennessey:Well, they turned it off as soon as they saw your face. The dot mob is dead today. PCH.

46:38Chris Ryan:I think overrated. Overrated? Yeah. As a driving experience, I think it's overrated. I think what they promised us, that feeling you're supposed to get of letting the engine rip on the open road and having the Pacific right there, I've very rarely experienced that.

46:54Sean Fennessey:Can I tell you what's underrated? 105. It's pretty good. 105 on the way out to LAX. Sure.

47:01Chris Ryan:Going by USC. Get a little fast track going. You have a fast track? I don't even have fast track. I'm just like, charge me later. You just pop in that lane. You're one of those guys. It's not even one of those guys. They take your picture. They send you a bill. As we know, they're always taking your picture.

47:16Sean Fennessey:You really are a Keoghan in that way. You'll just get in any lane. You get an HOV all by yourself?

47:21Chris Ryan:No, I only do HOV if I have a passenger. I don't fuck with that.

47:26Sean Fennessey:Are you worried that Gavin Newsom is listening to this podcast? What are you so worried about? Any other thoughts on highways and roadways? Do you have a favorite non-Los Angeles highway?

47:38Chris Ryan:The one that you've always treasured?

47:40Sean Fennessey:Well, certainly no highways on Long Island. All of which should be destroyed immediately. You guys should just take boats. The Northern State and Southern State Parkways, delete them. The Long Island Expressway, delete it.

47:51Chris Ryan:Hey, does the party in Eyes Wide Shut happen in Long Island?

47:55Sean Fennessey:I believe so. Yeah, I think that's the insinuation. It's like the Hamptons. It's got a long, long ride out to that house. You've been reshutting recently. I did.

48:04Chris Ryan:I reshut. Yeah. For personal purposes, not for work at all.

48:07Sean Fennessey:Just to prep for, wait a second. Yeah. Just to see how to live your material. Prep for the end of this podcast.

48:11Chris Ryan:Were you in Eyes Wide Shut? Were you, did you appear in a mask? No, I would have been too young. Would you? I think, was it at 99? You were originally cast. Oh, 99. I would have been 22. I would have been fine.

48:23Sean Fennessey:You were originally cast in the Lili Sobieski part, as I recall. and they and kubrick last minute swapped you out you would have been really good in that oh man that movie's fucking incredible were you like a

48:36Chris Ryan:really sweet-faced kid i could try and find a picture if you want uh as like a little kid

48:41Sean Fennessey:you can post that to see our heads you don't need to show me that all right well then you're

48:44Chris Ryan:fucking asking i don't know were you always like a grouch umpire yeah i was i was

48:52Sean Fennessey:No, I was always, I was the same bratty know-it-all that you know today. No one loves. Thank you. I appreciate that. Garbage crime. Yep. So it's funny that we're talking, I just mentioned Long Island. There's another movie that is out this weekend that Amanda and I will talk in more depth about on Monday, which is called How to Make a Killing, which is a soft remake of Kind Hearts and Coronets, the Alec Guinness movie starring Glenn Powell. And that is also kind of a garbage crime movie.

49:16Chris Ryan:Was it formerly known as Huntington?

49:18Sean Fennessey:So, I'll tell you. Do you know why it is? Did I tell you this? I mean, because of Long Island? So, the film is about a man who should be the heir to a very wealthy family fortune, but his mother has been excommunicated from a family, and so he has to go live in New Jersey. His family and these billionaires live in Huntington, Huntington, Long Island, my hometown. so much of the movie is oriented around the idea of getting to Huntington I do want to just state for the record I don't think there are any billionaires living in Huntington and there certainly were not when I was growing up it is the middle class town Hamlet is John Patton

49:58Chris Ryan:coming on your show to talk about this he's not

49:59Sean Fennessey:I would I read he's from South Carolina I would love to hear a bit about how he landed on it now just north to the Gold Coast Cold Spring Harbor sure yeah maybe some where's Steve Cohen live well he lives in space I think he's got he's got a colony on Mars that he's been building out full of Juan Sotos that will be sent back down to Earth to dominate the National League East this year but yeah Huntington the movie was originally called that because in my hometown I kind of enjoyed How to Make a Killing I think because my expectations were low but we'll get more into that but so that movie came out we've already talked about The Rip which is pure garbage crime I mean straight up a perfect example it's garbage crime

50:40Chris Ryan:I don't know if I would call it garbage heat specifically.

50:42Sean Fennessey:You know what it is? It's garbage cops. And that's a different kind of thing. And, you know, I was just having a conversation with a prominent filmmaker who really enjoyed the rip. And he was like, name me three better cop movies in the last 10 years. And I was like, you know, they don't really make those anymore. I was like, end of watch wind river. Like it's a pretty short list. Do you call dead of thieves a cop movie? I don't really. I mean, I guess it is, but it's more big Knicks movie.

51:04Chris Ryan:So Dead of Thieves is obviously, before Crime 101, the chief exemplar of Garbage Heat. This is a movie that, in almost every aspect of it, from the cop and robber who have begrudging respect for each other or not, but especially they still have a relationship, to using the urban landscape as its battlefield, to having high and very technically precise, well-researched crimes committed by the robbers themselves. So I came up with a list of about 40 movies that have happened since Heat. I think you could argue that there are different eras for these. Personally, I would say Garbage Heat starts in 2008 with The Dark Knight.

51:51Chris Ryan:So this is the first time that I remember filmmakers really, really, really referencing Heat as soon as the press started for the movies. And obviously Dark Knight features that incredible opening heist, which is very much like One Out of Heat. I think a lot of the way that Nolan shoots architecture and characters against cityscapes is very much influenced by Michael Mann. But that was when I first remembered like, oh, Heat's become a huge text for a new generation of filmmakers. Do you have another example of that? That came earlier? Mm-hmm. That's like, what, 13, 12 years 12-13 years after the heat came out.

52:29Sean Fennessey:That movie is so influential in so many different directions, The Dark Knight, that I think that that makes a lot of sense. There's no doubt that Man is a huge influence, I think, to this day on Nolan. Tenet, yeah. Even just in the general tone of seriousness that both men take to their films, where you're sort of like, you were watching ancient and essential rituals between professionals. That's a big part of both of their ethics, I think. So yeah, I don't know if I can think of another movie that comes before that that really changes anything. Now, there are plenty of imitators that come in the wake of Heat, including Michael Mann imitating himself at times.

53:04Sean Fennessey:But I think you're right that that kicks off a new era. So what does that era portend?

53:09Chris Ryan:I think Mann's place, because when Heat came out, it was right after Last of the Mohicans. And for my generation of viewers, I think Mann was kind of a lone swordsman. Like he didn't feel part of a generation of filmmakers. He had emerged out of television. He emerged also out of like fine arts school. And like, you know, like he had almost like a more of a Ridley Scott-esque trajectory than he did maybe Scorsese, Spielberg, et cetera. And then after he becomes kind of a juggernaut in terms of like being a huge crime film, He goes on and he makes a bunch of things that are ostensibly Oscar bait with the exception of Collateral, but like Ali, like The Insider, things like that.

53:57Chris Ryan:And the crime aspect of he is sort of left to imitators to kind of build up over the years. I think that there are some movies here that I listed that could very well, you know, say We Own the Night, James Gray. James Gray has a lot of different influences but this is a film where it's very much like you've got these two guys on opposite sides of the law with an emotional connection with each other is Duvall in We Own Tonight? Is he the dad? There you go, bringing it all together but that's a good example of a film where I would not necessarily call it garbage and I'd be very curious to know whether James Gray was like I had heat in mind that was a big thing for me or if he's like

54:33Sean Fennessey:I've never talked to him about Michael Mann I mean I know for those films that film in the yards there was certainly a lot of Coppola as a big influence and then I think I think it's fair to assume that there's like some Jerry Schatzberg in there you know like Scarecrow movie like that stuff like that also feels very resonant but like he's he's into the character of New York I don't know if he's like a cop movie head as much you know French Connection obviously hugely influential on all these movies too

55:03Chris Ryan:Is this an upcoming film also like a crime film?

55:06Sean Fennessey:It is I don't think it's a cop movie but I think it's a crime movie yeah but it's about two brothers but yeah that's a really good one We Own the Night and I guess that does precede The Dark Knight you know you've got the town here in 2010 and I think that there's kind of a pop sensibility that that movie has that also has been pretty resonant and I think where you see Garbage Crime resonating the most is not really in movies like Crime 101 or even in movies like The Rip which went straight to streaming but in a lot of like straight to VOD movies and there are a lot of movies that's like Gerard Butler Samuel L.

55:39Sean Fennessey:Jackson and Mila Jovovich holding a gun on the poster and it's like, you know, state of calm. Yes. And you're like, what is this? Where did this come from? Was this movie made in 14 days?

55:49Chris Ryan:These are like Redbox movies where like they get Aaron Eckhart to play a Serbian terrorist.

55:57Sean Fennessey:Yes, and it's like he kidnaps a tow truck driver who has the keys to an armored car and it's one crazy day with the Serbs. Yeah. So I find that the town is very influential on those movies. And the town, obviously, a big heat is the central text.

56:13Chris Ryan:Affleck's very honest about that. I think a couple of others that I wanted to shout out were more recent ones. A trio of movies, Dragged Across Concrete, which is a Craig Zoller movie from a few years ago with Mel Gibson and Vince Vaughn, which is really one of the more unique crime movies maybe I've ever seen. Zoller is, he also directed Riot and Soul Black 99. Isn't that great? And has a new film that he's apparently finally starting production on The Bookie and the Bruiser with D.O. James and Vince Vaughn soon. Very, very, very unique writer and director. Oh, Bone Tomahawk is obviously the one he's maybe best known for.

56:52Chris Ryan:Yep. And this one is kind of half Don Siegel, John Frankenheimer, 70s hard... spoiled crime fiction and then almost like an odd... I don't even know how to describe the comic sensibility of this movie, but there is like a very visual sense of humor that usually involves incredibly gory violence and dark irony. And it's pretty unique to it, but the use of this incredibly epic tapestry to tell a story about the underworld, I thought was very influenced by Heat, even if not necessarily explicitly visually. is this a good time for crime movies well I think that a lot of our favorite performers are very interested in being in crime movies I think it's always going to be a really attractive genre because I think everybody grows up watching these kinds of movies and you know Austin Butler and when he gets to this level of his career what does he want to do he wants to fucking do close gun training and kiss Joey Kravitz and run across the street.

58:08Chris Ryan:You know what I mean? That's what we want to do. Yeah. So I think that you're always going to see an interest when it comes from actors. I don't know whether or not something like Crime 101 is like a viable studio proposition. I mean, I assume the$90 million price tag for this movie is one of those like inflated because everybody got paid their entire fee for the entirety of the lifetime of the movie the way Netflix kind of works?

58:35Sean Fennessey:I think that's, my gut tells me that that's a factor. I don't know if they got paid their entire back end, but there was this expectation that the back end would not be as strong on the box office. And so the fact that it is going to be a big streaming movie probably very soon was built into the framework. But the other thing to consider is that they shot in Los Angeles. Yeah. And shooting in California is so expensive. And when you read stories about a movie like this or about one battle after another's budget, those movies shot in California. Yes. Most movies don't. Most movies shoot in fucking Bulgaria.

59:03Sean Fennessey:And they do that so they can have the budget.

59:05Chris Ryan:One battle is shooting up in Northern California in towns where they basically had the run of it. This is fucking shutting down Sunset Boulevard like multiple times.

59:12Sean Fennessey:Yes, which is in 2026 incredibly difficult. You mentioned Caught Stealing and Austin Butler. And last year had this wave of movies that I thought were really interesting where a lot of garbage crime stuff, maybe not all heat-led stuff, but in that realm, like no other choice, Caught Stealing, Shane Black's Play Dirty, Roofman, Den of Thieves, Pantera, Havoc. highest to lowest, all pretty garbage crimey and like all kind of nodding to their 70s and 80s influences in a big way, all driven by auteurs. And weirdly, we are missing a class of filmmaker that is like Don Siegel. I like almost all the directors who made the movies that I just mentioned, even if I didn't love all of those movies.

59:57Sean Fennessey:But it's almost like those filmmakers need to take a step down class-wise to get a movie made and they're then leaning into the past to get this stuff made. So it's kind of it feels like a very transitional moment in how and when we get these movies. To your point about Crime 101's budget and thinking about how it even got off the ground.

1:00:18Chris Ryan:I mean this half as a joke but more filmmakers should be more like Guy Ritchie and direct more movies and take more bites at the apple. I don't really quite understand how Guy Ritchie gets two movies a year financed at this point because I don't really think he's had a very significant box office hit in a while. He has successes. He did The Gentleman and The Gentleman became a Netflix series. He did I think, what was the Jake Gyllenhaal war movie? The Vow?

1:00:51Sean Fennessey:That was The Covenant. The Covenant.

1:00:56Chris Ryan:He obviously did Ambulance, which we thought I have here as Garb. No, Michael Bay did Ambulance. Oh, sorry. He obviously did Wrath of Man, which I have here as Garbage Heat. But what he does is he's just like, I like making these movies and I'm going to make one every nine months. So he has two movies this year.

1:01:12Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And he has a third coming maybe at the end of this year or 2027. And I think you're right. And he really that's really more of a Don Siegel kind of air. Yeah. Where it's just like you're just kind of always working. And some movies are classics and other movies you just forget about. He did make a movie last year. Do you remember what it was called?

1:01:29Chris Ryan:is this the one with Alan Richson the mystery of extraordinary

1:01:32Sean Fennessey:no no that was the ministry of ungentlemanly warfare that was in 2024 last year he made a movie called Fountain of Youth oh right with Natalie Portman and John Krasinski written by James Vanderbilt the man who wrote Zodiac did you see this I did it's abhorrent it's like it's fake national treasure it's terrible and you know sometimes you miss yeah sometimes you miss not a garbage crime movie. Nevertheless, there is something going on like Gus Van Zandt made Dead Man's Wire which is like a clear Dog Day Afternoon homage that just came out earlier this year. There's a movie coming out this year called How to Rob a Bank.

1:02:07Sean Fennessey:What do we think that's going to be? The Adventures of Cliff Booth is going to be a crime movie. It's very clear from the trailer that that's got more of like a nitty gritty guys swinging hammers and firing guns at people kind of energy to it.

1:02:21Chris Ryan:So something's happening. It's for sure. I think that this genre is probably and not a dissimilar place from horror, where there is a market for quote-unquote elevated crime and elevated horror, a lot of that going through A24, a lot of it about trauma, a lot of it about, like, you know, often set in pretty remote places. I would say that crime, when it's on, like, the Jeremy Saulnier end of things, is borderline awards-worthy, you know? But then there is, like, kind of this huge gap between Rebel Ridge and, to your point, the movies that seem to populate airline movie galleries. We were just like, wait, what?

1:03:05Chris Ryan:Anthony Hopkins did six of these? Yeah.

1:03:07Sean Fennessey:I watched a really interesting one last night that I had checked in with you about. Just sort of a garbage crime, sort of a political thriller called Sovereign.

1:03:18Chris Ryan:Yeah, the Nick Offerman movie.

1:03:19Sean Fennessey:Which stars Nick Offerman as a kind of a resettler. of the American idea and someone who wants to really operate outside of systems and, you know, very kind of like Jan Six coded, I would say, and his kind of collision course with a cop played by Dennis Quaid who is in pursuit of him and he's starting to build up this sort of like cult-like faction. It reminded me a little bit of The Order from 2024, the Jude Law and Nicholas Holt movie about a white power faction and the FBI and there are also, I think it's an opportunity to, on a very small budget, create like interesting character parts. Like Nick Offerman is excellent in that movie and Nick Holt is excellent in that movie.

1:03:56Sean Fennessey:Now those are showy parts about crazy zealots but there's like you can get away with something on a smaller scale too with these kinds of movies that you can't franchise movies can't support this kind of work.

1:04:08Chris Ryan:So another film about zealots that made me I'm thinking of because you're talking about Sovereign is Stand Off at Sparrow Creek which is this Henry Dunham film starring James Badgedale that was made in like 2018 that I'm a huge huge fan of. about, um, there's a, a shooting happens at a policeman, like a cop gets killed in a, I think it's Michigan. And then a militia gathers six members of a militia gather in a warehouse to figure out which one of them did it or is, is, is the mole. It's like basically a mole hunt. And, uh, he is now Henry Dunham is finally directing a new film that's coming out, I believe this year called Enemies with Austin Butler and Jeremy Allen White.

1:04:56Chris Ryan:And Anastasia Wai. That sounds very garbage crime, garbage heat-y. Sounds very heat-ish. Yeah.

1:05:03Sean Fennessey:He is so tough, man, because it's a very, it's a perfect object, right? And we don't have a lot of movies like that. And I, I'll never forget asking Joanna Hogg what's the last great thing you've seen and she said heat. And I was like, really? That was your answer? That's awesome. That was your answer. But like, I think that it, it moves beyond the realm of like guy TNT cinema, you know? Like it is a very, it is like kind of a spiritual movie. It is. It is. And kind of like intellectually rigorous in its way. Yeah. But it is kind of getting into that like Casablanca singing in the rain zone of like the Godfather.

1:05:46Sean Fennessey:Like we all agree. Yeah. This is an American classic. And that's, It's unusual for something like that to happen so late.

1:05:52Chris Ryan:It's survived its own... Its critiques have now become parts of its charm. So like the Natalie Portman subplot has now almost become like camp. And people are like, no, no, no, you don't get it. Without Lauren, this doesn't happen. Yeah.

1:06:08Sean Fennessey:That's an interesting aspect of it. Okay, so you have compiled some awards.

1:06:11Chris Ryan:Oh, yeah, because we just did a bill pod the other week where we gave heat awards to the NBA season. So I thought what I would do is give...

1:06:20Sean Fennessey:get any awards in that episode? The Knicks have not been talked about.

1:06:23Chris Ryan:What's going on with that? I don't know. I think they're just kind of like boringly okay, but I know that there's been some controversies with Carl, with Kat, and like Mike Brown not getting Kat's back, and dudes don't like Mike Brown. What's up with that? Are you guys okay?

1:06:36Sean Fennessey:No, they're really not at their best when he's on the floor. With Kat. Yeah. We all know it. You know, we're all Team Landry Schammett. We want him to get more time. It looks great out there. It just seems like... We got Alvarado now.

1:06:48Chris Ryan:Weirdly, it's not your year.

1:06:50Sean Fennessey:You know, many people are saying this, but, you know, they said it last year and we were one fucked up Tyrese Halliburton shot from going to the NBA finals. So, you know, that's OK.

1:06:59Chris Ryan:I came up with some Heat Awards for garbage Heat movies. You did. So first, this is just because we were rolling with Heat Awards. So I thought this would be fun. The Venice Boulevard Award for best opening heist set piece. Now, this goes to all the movies that are not Heat that I feel like Heat influenced.

1:07:13Sean Fennessey:OK, I haven't looked at any of these.

1:07:15Chris Ryan:OK, the obvious one here is the bank robbery that opens the town. very, very self-consciously, I think pulling tonally from the Venice Boulevard heist that starts heat with the truck and the armored car. The couple of regular fellows award for best duo from opposite sides of the law. I go Clive Owen and Denzel Washington from Inside Man. Whether you consider that heat, garbage heat, I don't know. But like that interaction of like cop who does what he does best, robber who does what he does best, but then there are also forces outside of them that are a common enemy, in this case, Nazis. And like these guys, their interactions are very memorable in the film.

1:07:56Chris Ryan:One of the great, you know, kind of cop and robber.

1:08:01Sean Fennessey:Can I complicate this award a little bit? I think there's a new nominee in this award. Hit me. Which is more, a little different from what you're describing, but related, which is Profidia Beverly Hills and Colonel Stephen J. Lockjaw.

1:08:13Bart Layton:Yeah.

1:08:14Sean Fennessey:Profidia Beverly Hills, of course, who is pursued in the aftermath of a bank heist. Of course. And someone who needs something from her and she needs something from him. And that is like the animating incident of that entire movie. It's a great wrinkle. We don't think of One Battle as a Heat-esque film, but...

1:08:31Chris Ryan:It's an LA heist movie. It is. The Randy Newman I Love LA Award for Best Use of Los Angeles in a Crime Saga Since Heat I Am Going Ambulance, Michael Bay.

1:08:41Sean Fennessey:Yes, that's the only other movie besides Crime 101 where I'm like, how the fuck do they do this?

1:08:46Chris Ryan:Well, if somebody's about to write in and be like, they actually shot that in downtown Santa Fe, I don't want to know. It doesn't look like it. I don't think so. It never looks like it, honestly. This is Jake Gyllenhaal and Yaya Abdul-Mateen driving across LA in an ambulance stolen after a bank heist goes wrong. And cops are chasing them. The media is following them. Drones are flying around them. It's just incredible car chase work. and I don't know necessarily that it had some of the same geographical accuracy as Crime 101 say, but it feels very exciting to travel across Los Angeles at that velocity.

1:09:23Chris Ryan:It's a modern masterpiece. The Bon Voyage Motherfucker Award for Heat in a Different City. What do you think is the best example of like a garbage heat movie taking place in another city? Is it just, I don't want to give town too many awards here. Logan Lucky? Yeah, brother.

1:09:39Sean Fennessey:You know? Yeah, that's a good one. On the racetrack? Is that in North Carolina? Yeah.

1:09:43Chris Ryan:That's a good one. Let's go with that. Okay. The seven years in Folsom in the hole for three award for painstakingly researched heat ripoff. This is easily goes to the high school football ball knowledge and Den of Thieves.

1:09:58Sean Fennessey:Do you think Den of Thieves aired by pivoting to pure crime and no longer being a cops and robbers movie?

1:10:04Chris Ryan:I personally feel like it aired by going too fast and furious. I understood the desire to go international. and I think that there was some interesting aspects to that movie but it became too much like about honestly Den of Thieves Pantera feels a lot like the ending of Crime 101 where it's just like you and I we're not so different

1:10:25Sean Fennessey:yeah

1:10:25Chris Ryan:we're like let's get make sure everybody's happy at the end of this I need you holding hands at LAX staring into oblivion have you ever robbed a bank? no okay the you do not get to watch my fucking television set award for Heat on the small screen. I know it's the big picture. I thought I would just shout out a couple TV shows that drew heavily from Heat. Interesting. Task, obviously. Yeah, I haven't seen it. This past year, Zero Zero Zero. Yeah, great show. Stefano Salima's incredible globetrotting cocaine epic. Task Zero Zero Zero, True Detective Season 2 set in Los Angeles about the criminal Vince Vaughn, Colin Farrell, their relationship in Rundown Bars.

1:11:05Chris Ryan:I re-watched this show this season recently. I heard you were doing that, yeah. Yeah.

1:11:08Sean Fennessey:And did you feel as moved by the spirit as you were many years ago?

1:11:12Chris Ryan:I thought it was miles better than I remember it and it would be like a pretty excellent show in this year. Season two, you mean? Yeah, if it came out in 2026, I'd be like, that's fucking great television. Okay. Too Old to Die Young. Elite. Nicholas Wending reference. This is more Lynch than it is Man, but there's a lot of Man in it and there's a lot of LA in it and there's a lot of Miles Teller spitting in it.

1:11:35Sean Fennessey:Forgot about the spitting. slightly deranged

1:11:38Chris Ryan:it's just important to know that Miles Teller did a 10 hour Nicholas winning Refn sci-fi cop epic that Amazon was like for sure put it out you know

1:11:49Sean Fennessey:you know Refn's back you know he's gonna be at Cannes for her private hell what do you think

1:11:55Chris Ryan:Amanda would be mad if I was just like at Cannes front row standing ovation

1:12:00Sean Fennessey:no I don't you should be thrilled

1:12:02Chris Ryan:and the last one is Tokyo Vice which Michael Mann also directed the pilot of two seasons on HBO about the contemporary Japanese or relatively contemporary Japanese underworld.

1:12:13Sean Fennessey:Did that come back for a second season? It did. How was that? It was good.

1:12:17Chris Ryan:It was quite good.

1:12:17Sean Fennessey:Third season?

1:12:19Chris Ryan:It didn't come back for a third season. Was Elgort in the second season? Yes. Okay. Yeah. He plays Adelstein. Jake Adelstein. Who's that? The journalist. He wrote the book that Tokyo Vice is based on. Sorry. And that's it. That's all I got.

1:12:33Sean Fennessey:I thought you had a final award here. number seven.

1:12:36Chris Ryan:Oh, the Anyone Want Some Pie Wayne Grow Award for character from a heat ripoff that could hang in heat.

1:12:42Sean Fennessey:Oh. What do you got here?

1:12:46Chris Ryan:This is tough because it's like Wayne Grow is such an indelible character but I was going to throw this is actually like contemporary with heat so it doesn't really work but Mads Mikkelsen from Pusher. Speaking of Nicholas winning reference.

1:12:58Sean Fennessey:Yes. He could fit. Love to see him just join up with the crew. We need Mads in another crime movie. What's he up to? I think he's about to embark on it. He was just in Brian Fuller's directorial debut, Dust Bunny. Did you check that one out? No.

1:13:14Chris Ryan:You know what I did check out recently? Friday the 13th, the final chapter. I was watching that again. Is that six? What number is that? Four. Four. What happens in four? Corey Feldman? It starts at the hospital. Jason's dead starts at that. It's Corey Feldman. Corey Feldman. Yeah. Okay. And Crispin Glover.

1:13:31Sean Fennessey:That one's good. That one's great. I like that one. That might be my favorite one, I think. I have a real negative feeling towards like 6, 7, 8 though. So I always get a little bit tripped up after 4. Like which ones I actually like and don't like.

1:13:44Chris Ryan:Because like New Blood is new...

1:13:47Sean Fennessey:Well, Takes Manhattan I hate. Yeah. Goes to Hell I hate. Those are two I just can't... What about Fate vs. Jason? It's fine. To me it's not either of those movies because it's so camp. But there's things about it that are okay. Jason in Space, terrible. Jason X.

1:14:03Chris Ryan:I was basically going through these... long-running horror franchises to get into fighting shape for Scream 7.

1:14:09Sean Fennessey:So that's the next time you're going to be back on the show.

1:14:15Sean Fennessey:Our friend Tim Simons is in it. You think he's Ghostface?

1:14:20Chris Ryan:I don't know anything about what Tim does in this film, but I think if he's not, it's a waste of Tim Simons.

1:14:26Sean Fennessey:It's so tricky with the height because if Tim walked in here right now as Ghostface, I would know it's him. but like you say that about Mikey Madison yeah there's a lot of short people in the world there's a lot of short people in that movie Tim is a tall man alright don't give him a complex no he's a beautiful man he's actually he's in his speaking of he's re-impexing I mean he's whatever he's doing is amazing VW also you know those VW ads he's crushing on that you guys are VW buddies Eskimo buddies for VW um yeah okay I'm really excited about Scream 7. I really needed to be good.

1:15:03Chris Ryan:Oh, there's a couple other things I wanted to bounce off you.

1:15:05Sean Fennessey:Scream is just like all these movies too, by the way, where I'm just like, Scream 5 and 6 are now masterpieces in my head even though when I saw them I was like, pretty cool. And now I'm like, I love those movies. Yes. So that's just boring. And I like Scream 4,

1:15:17Chris Ryan:which you don't.

1:15:17Sean Fennessey:You're the only guy who does.

1:15:19Chris Ryan:A couple other things I wanted to bounce off you. Yeah. The dude who directed Surat. Oliver Laschet. Was he beautiful? Was he like a beautiful man?

1:15:27Sean Fennessey:Are you asking because of the reaction that I had to him? Yeah. Well, it was twofold, and thank you for asking. We did discuss it a little bit in the episode. You know, he's 6 '7". No. He is. He's 6 '7". He has hair down past his shoulders. He looks like... He's sort of like when you see Trey McBride out there catching passes for the Cardinals, where you're just like, who's going to stop this guy? Like, he's just a force. Kyler Murray. Truly. But as soon as they put Jacoby Brissett in there, they were fine. so he's got a physical bearing that is undeniable right where you're just like this man could pick me up and carry me home but also he's so fucking sincere about his work so sincere in a way that is like I found overwhelming because I'm such a irony poisoned cynical motherfucker and the reason I asked Oliver to come on the show is a friend of a friend emailed me and was like I just took a meeting with Oliver Lachey and he was just fascinating.

1:16:30Sean Fennessey:And you just, I just wanted to see what it would be like to see you guys talk to each other. And I'm really glad that we did. I still don't even know if I like Surat.

1:16:39Chris Ryan:That's okay. Have you seen it? I don't think you have to only interview directors where you're like, that's a five-star banger.

1:16:44Sean Fennessey:That's true. But I only want to talk to people whose movies I like. I don't want to talk to a person and pretend I liked their movie or something. I never do that.

1:16:50Chris Ryan:No, I have that problem too, where sometimes I'm a little overly effusive if I'm talking to somebody where I'm like, I don't know.

1:16:55Sean Fennessey:But I don't want to invite somebody on who I'm like, but his movie had some things in it and he was kind of excited to engage about like he was like well what didn't work and why did you feel that way this is a different kind of this is very European do you think you're bringing that same adversarial tone

1:17:10Chris Ryan:to your conversation with Spielberg

1:17:15Sean Fennessey:it's going to be an interesting challenge to not full blown genuflect for an hour to not Chris Farley so I got to get my thoughts in order beforehand but I'm looking forward to it I've spent my life preparing to speak with Steven Spielberg so I'm looking forward to that.

1:17:28Chris Ryan:I hope that all of our conversations have trained you for it.

1:17:31Sean Fennessey:You've taught me more than you'll ever know. Is there anything else you wanted to hit on? You said you had a few things.

1:17:36Chris Ryan:No, I think I'm good. I was trying to think because you're not really watching any shows. I was going to just take it up. No, Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Yeah, but you're not up on industry which is kind of tragic.

1:17:46Sean Fennessey:I'm two and a half episodes behind unfortunately for me. Night of the Seven Kingdoms, as I said on the rewatchables, I'm really enjoying it. You weren't as into five. I thought five was phenomenal. I was super into five. Andy wasn't into five.

1:17:58Chris Ryan:I thought you said it wasn't their best. I didn't think that the flashback was necessary at all. I didn't need his origin story of being a kid in Flea Bottom. Do you have any trauma? Yeah, but it doesn't inform how I perform on this podcast. What is it, would you say? My trauma? Yeah. When I was younger, I felt like I was really in the throes of an amazing baseball career. I'll tell you this God's honest truth and my so I'm playing baseball for this travel baseball team they'll go on to win the city championship a bunch of kids have gone to camp earlier in the summer and the idea was like you know at some point they're going to come back and they'll also join the team but like to me I put in the work you know what I mean I was handling pitchers I was batting like as high as third I was really hot for a while in that season

1:18:52Sean Fennessey:what can you what was your launch angle? You know, like what? I was a line drive here.

1:18:56Chris Ryan:This was back in the day where we manufactured runs. We didn't just go swinging for the fences.

1:19:00Sean Fennessey:How were you as a base runner?

1:19:02Chris Ryan:Able. I wouldn't say I was a stolen NSB threat. Yeah. But I would make you pay if you weren't paying attention. Got it.

1:19:08Sean Fennessey:Okay. More of a trickster.

1:19:10Chris Ryan:If some kid was like picking boogers on the mound, I was gone. Vince Coleman. Anyway.

1:19:14Sean Fennessey:Maybe not who you want to compare yourself to.

1:19:16Chris Ryan:One of the assistant coaches on our team was a dad of a kid who went to camp. And when his kid came back, he was quickly inserted into my starting position. And that has followed me around ever since because I wonder whether or not I could have been JT Real Muto if that hadn't happened.

1:19:32Sean Fennessey:So you were Wally pipped by a Nepo.

1:19:34Chris Ryan:Yeah. Man, that's savage. Now they may go back and be like, Chris, in fact, was two for 30. You know, and we felt like we needed to make a change. I don't remember. They didn't give us, we didn't play for box scores. We played it for wins, you know?

1:19:50Sean Fennessey:do you ever feel like Andy just lets you lay out like you just did on the show yeah

1:19:55Chris Ryan:maybe I have a different responsibility on that show what is it it's a host to keep things moving to bring bring interesting items to the show and bring any interesting facts I might find while looking on the internet

1:20:07Sean Fennessey:do you think Little League Corner is a corner we should build here on the show for you so you can explore different elements

1:20:12Chris Ryan:can we get a thumbs up thumbs down yeah okay great

1:20:14Sean Fennessey:Little League Corner that was the first installment sponsored by Volkswagen it could be a

1:20:19Chris Ryan:decades-long saga, too, because what if I then start coaching Amanda's children?

1:20:24Sean Fennessey:Well, that will be happening, I think, right? Yeah. I believe T-ball starts for that young man very soon.

1:20:29Chris Ryan:And I don't let Zach assistant coach because I'm like, we can't do to them what was done to me.

1:20:36Sean Fennessey:I don't think I realize how this resonated inside you, and I want to say thank you for sharing. It kind of feels like the end of Crime 101, right? Where we kind of come to a closure. Exactly.

1:20:44Chris Ryan:Maybe this movie knew more about us than I think it did. You know, maybe it had more to tell us.

1:20:49Sean Fennessey:You're the goat. Thank you. Let's go to my conversation with Bart Layton.

1:20:56Sean Fennessey:Back on the show after eight years, Bart Layton is here. Hi, Bart. Hey, Matt. Has it been eight years? What have I been doing? That is literally my question. So you were here for American Animals and also a heist movie. You're back with a heist movie. What was going on in the eight years?

1:21:13Bart Layton:well um so i also run a production company in in the uk and we do i guess the day job is a lot of docs you know we do a lot of uh feature docs and uh so i sort of do a lot of shepherding of that and also i think with the movie thing i think because we've had this company and uh that's sort of a you know the the bread and butter i think with the movies like i have to find something that is so all-consuming and so like I have to do this and then that takes a while I guess I tend to you know and I know as the writer I'm not a uh I kind of have this thing of shaking a script until nothing comes loose and so that takes a while so it took a while to write this and um rewrite it and rewrite it again and you know and then uh when you get your cast things have a slightly different feel to it and you know and so there's another pass to be done so it was uh yeah it was a labor of love in a way and then uh which is all an excuse for

1:22:20Sean Fennessey:basically just being a bit slack and taking too long off in between but is your intention to be kind of working at this pace or do you want to make a lot of movies i'm curious about that because it's been three features over the long period of time but you have this full-time day job yeah i

1:22:37Bart Layton:I think now, and, you know, the company has grown, and now there are people who are bigger and smarter than I am who can do it. And so I think I'll step back, and I think, you know, the dream, I suppose, was always to make movies, and especially for the theatre. And now that has sort of come to fruition, and, you know, via a long career in documentary making, and then making that transition, transition which has been exhilarating and terrifying uh i think now i will i'll step up the pace a little bit and also like you having little kids you know when you go to make a movie and especially in the states you you you come back like when i came back from american animals i've been away for six months and they've changed and you're like so i i felt like i wasn't willing to do that again and just miss that big important chunk of it's funny you say that i was at the dgas

1:23:32Sean Fennessey:on Saturday. And two different nominees there said that they were so grateful to their partners because they had little kids who were sick at home. And they were just like, doing this job, you just are away all the time. And it's not something you think about when you're a movie fan, right? You're just like, where's your next movie? Where's your next movie?

1:23:48Bart Layton:And actually, weirdly, you sort of almost don't want them to be there. You know, if the kids had relocated to LA, I would have almost been too split in the focus. You actually just want to do the job. And if you're the writer as well, you never get a day off. And then half the time you're coming in from a night shoot when they're just waking up. So actually, it's better just to say, I'll see you in a few months. But then, you know, you've got to be prepared that you might miss like something mega, like their first words or their first steps or something. And that you can never get back. Right, right.

1:24:23Sean Fennessey:So what was it about that? So did someone hand you the Don Winslow story? How did it come across your path?

1:24:28Bart Layton:Yeah, my agent sent it and was like, I think this has your name on it. And I think there was a bit of a kind of bidding war going on. And I felt like I wasn't likely to be a big enough name probably, but I read it. And I remember kind of getting two thirds of the way through and sort of thinking, wow, this is actually kind of brilliant. and I really hope it has a great sort of third act. And it did, and it had this great twist. And I thought, okay, this could be handled right. One of those sort of movies that I remember completely falling in love with as a young person or as a kid. You know, those movies you went to see maybe with your dad or whatever, and they felt incredibly memorable in the 80s or 90s.

1:25:20And they were grown up, and they were sophisticated.

1:25:24Bart Layton:but they were incredibly compelling. And I just thought if I was ever going to get to make a kind of a movie of scale, you know, a Hollywood movie with real movie stars, it would want to be one of the kinds of movies that I would want to go and see and that I felt was slightly, not disappearing, but that we were just getting fewer and fewer of those. And I remember them from, you know, being at university and going to see like True Romance or Collateral or Out of Sight or one of the, And they just felt like such a treat. And yet they were smart as well. So, yeah, I think that was the thing of thinking maybe if I do a decent job of the screenplay, it could have something of that quality to it.

1:26:07Sean Fennessey:Well, you mentioned you were concerned because there was a bidding war. So how do you stand out? How do you become the person that they say, okay, it'll be yours?

1:26:14Bart Layton:I may have got this wrong, but I think by some crazy coincidence, Don Winslow got invited to another writer friend's house. who does these sort of like surprise screenings of random films and he screened American Animals. And it was either Don or his manager anyway. One of them was completely blown away by it. And that was the funny thing about that film, even though I think I probably would have liked more people to see it at the time in the cinema. It did have this kind of interesting life especially among actors and others and so there was a lot of I guess enthusiasm around it so it was always easy to kind of pick up and I think that was just like they saw that there was something a little maybe different about it and thought oh let's let him have a crack at it yeah yeah I mean

1:27:10Sean Fennessey:I remember when we talked about it eight years ago I was like there's something a little different about this movie there's something special about this movie and and I've been waiting for you to make another movie to be honest with you um so technically the three i see the three movies as all kind of heist movies like i said yeah and you know the imposter too has that feeling of stolen identity stolen life stolen um conceit so what's like what's going on under the surface like why is that something that you are drawn to over and over it depends how deep you want to go

1:27:40Bart Layton:um i grew up with a mother who was a theater director who made very fringe theater so and And she was a single mom and I shared her with the theater. And she made these really out there, very beautiful, very artful productions. But there wasn't a big audience for it. And I think I had this sense of, you know, like how do you find a way to do something which is a genuinely kind of commercial proposition? And then if you can do that successfully, you might be able to start to smuggle in the ideas that you're interested in. talking about. And I think, you know, American animals was really, you know, I think that's the great thing about a heist film as a structure.

1:28:25You get to start with a question that everyone knows,

1:28:29Bart Layton:you know, they're going to wait till the third act to find out the answer to, right? So you've got this inbuilt kind of what's going to happen next. And I think for me, whether it's because of, you know, my childhood sitting in the back of, you know, endless rehearsals in freezing cold London basements and thinking, and then an audience not showing up and then thinking, you know, I would love to have that same creative license, but maybe find more of a kind of rollercoaster framework to then start to think about, you know, these other things. And, you know, American Animals are really about lost young men who'd been promised a so-called special life that we all feel is our divine right, and yet, of course, it isn't.

1:29:20Bart Layton:Especially in a culture which is telling you that if you're not a somebody, you're a nobody. And that, I thought, was the thing that that kind of heist movie could actually really delve into. And it was about privilege, and it was about, you know, I remember talking to you at the time, and the reason I made that and included the real kids in it was because, you know, Their major problem was that they didn't have a problem in life but needed one to be interesting. And I think with this, I saw a similar way of having a framework which was going to be like you'll get all the things, well, hopefully you agree, you get all the things you want from a really fun night out of the cinema.

1:30:02You get, you know, there's action in it.

1:30:07Bart Layton:There's some really tense set pieces and it's a constant sort of build of suspense and all of the things that hopefully you want. But also I think I thought, you know, maybe there's an opportunity to talk about, you know, the LA, that culture of status anxiety. And if you let that be the kind of, if you let that pressure dictate the decisions you make in your life, you might find yourself at a place where you've given up everything to have that kind of status and all of the kind of trappings of success. And then you realize maybe it's not working for me. And so the characters are all at that kind of crisis point.

1:30:52Sean Fennessey:One of the things that really jumps out is that every character in the film is kind of consumed by class in some way, like mostly aspirationally, except for Monica Barbaro's character, who's kind of like, this doesn't matter. Why is this so important? And I find that to be a fascinating thing to do especially in a heist movie obviously which is just all about the acquisition of wealth but the mike character is is a curious curious guy and there's it's like i would say it's mostly unexplained what is going on with mike whether there is like he is afflicted by something obviously he has a past that is somewhat troubled and he had some struggles as a young kid but i'm curious like what you and chris hemsworth talked about to kind of because you can see chris making some choices but not overplaying it you know not like there's not a lot of um

1:31:42Bart Layton:explaining what is going on so I'm curious about that yeah I mean what because I guess I come from docs my first sort of port of call was to try and find real people who are representative of all of the different characters in the movie so believe it or not you can't there are real jewel thieves out there and the successful ones are roaming around and the unsuccessful ones are in prison and you can talk to them and you can write to them and when we began that research process a lot of the same things came up which was a history of foster care um some domestic violence some the absence of fathers and the absence of kind of adults who were caring and And so Chris and I started looking at a lot of that research.

1:32:35Bart Layton:And then we looked a lot at, there's a brilliant website app called Soft White Underbelly. You might know it, which is a lot of testimonies from people who've been through those sorts of homes and experiences. And so we never, like at one point, you know, I think Chris was like, do we need a scene? Don't we need a scene, which is like the Goodwill hunting scene of you don't understand what I, you know. And I felt like there has to be a more economical way of doing that. And what you see in Chris's performance, I think, is a guy who is not your kind of, he's not the James Bond of jewel thieves.

1:33:11Bart Layton:You know, he's a guy who's come from trouble and is vulnerable and is not confident in every situation. And so a lot of that was done with workshopping some of those testimonies and trying to base all of the characters. And, you know, Ruffalo's character, all of that came from interviews I'd done with real LAPD officers. Nick Nolte's character, we went deep into the fences who have this kind of fatherly influence over all of the, they're kind of like Fagan, kind of Oliver Twist characters. So all of that was very real and based in, you know, a ton of research, which we did. and I thought much I think one of the things that maybe has happened in recent times is maybe audiences aren't given quite as much respect as you know and they're sort of spoon fed all of this backstory which is going to generate you know empathy and I think I wanted to do that in a much more subtle way where you'll get it from his posture from some of the behavior rather than a big soliloquy

1:34:20Sean Fennessey:you know yeah I really appreciated that it's something that I genuinely hate in most modern movies um it's not as often in a crime film you find in a lot of horror films these days where there's a lot of kind of explication of past woe that then communicate so anyway that that aspect of it is really nice so but having made all these heist movies like do you is there like a secret now that you think you need to make one successful like something that has to occur

1:34:43Bart Layton:I sort of feel like I'm more in the kind of I don't know if it's like an anti-heist but I sort of feel like they're, you know, with this, I suppose, I really wanted to keep one foot in, in the real world. And I think, you know, when you have big movie stars and you have big resources, it's really tempting to go into, uh, whether it's an action sequence or whether it's just a plot thing that, that suddenly you're as, as an audience, you're kind of like, Oh, right. Okay. I'm now in a movie, so I'm not really playing along. And you have less skin in the game. Whereas I felt like, and I would always say to all of the actors, you know, and even when we were planning some of the, you know, the big kind of stunty sequences, let's just keep this back, bring it back to what would really happen and what would this really feel like.

1:35:35Bart Layton:And I think the, essentially the benefit of that is you as an audience feel way more connected in to the characters and you feel like you're right in it rather than kind of on the outside watching. And even some of those great 70s movies, which I adore and which were probably influences for this, you know, whether it's French Connection or, you know, some of the Billy Frequent things, you know, often that final wrapping up is a kind of shootout in an industrial space. And then you're in a slightly kind of like, Like, oh, I'm now just watching this all get tied up. And again, I wanted it to be much more about a kind of intensity of suspense and emotion than action, if that makes sense.

1:36:22Sean Fennessey:It does. There's a real meticulousness, though, to that first sequence where I have not seen a robbery like that. And it seems very real. And I don't know how much of that comes from Don's story, which I haven't read. And, you know, how you construct that. but the level of the strategy of the character is fascinating. And then the way that you kind of show it to us. So it's rare to see something new like that. Maybe you can talk through that sequence a little bit for us.

1:36:44Bart Layton:Sure. Yeah. No, no, that's, that's, none of that is in the, is in the short story. And funnily enough, it's really fun when you just start kind of, I guess, internally spitballing ideas of like, how would this work? And what would be the cleverest, most meticulous way of doing this? But again, not getting into kind of movie territory where it's unrealistic or whatever. And, um, but, but what was interesting is like, I would write all of this stuff, you know, and like, so for example, like he has an identical car to the courier and what he's going to do is he's going to intercept the courier. He's going to put the courier in the trunk of his car and it's an identical car and he's going to turn up basically as the, he's actually the follow car for the courier.

1:37:35Bart Layton:So he, you know, and he's going to show up and to all intents and purposes, it's exactly the same car that they're expecting. He's replaced the courier and all this. So I would come up with all this stuff, which kind of sounded slick and movie-ish, but then I would be like, do a reality check. Then I would go to some of the guys down in like these really high-end jewelers in LA, I won't mention exact names, the stories they would tell of the holdups that they had been victims of really and truly. Like one guy said, they were sending, this is a real story. He was sending a package, I think, to Saudi Arabia worth tens of millions through FedEx.

1:38:17Bart Layton:And the FedEx guys turned up a bit early. so they let them into the holding area they did the ids then they let them into the showroom and then the fedex guys pulled the guns out and like hijacked the whole place took everything and went and then the real fedex guys turned up 20 minutes later that's not something i made up that's that that stuff is really happening and so there was a lot where i would be generating all of these quite slick kind of, you know, pretty fun robberies. And then I would go and have a chat with someone and they'd come up with something true that was kind of almost like more outlandish.

1:38:53Sean Fennessey:It's fascinating. I think it's also really good character development because you're like, well, this guy clearly has been studying this for a long time. Like there's a level of detail in this plan that is rare. A lot of movies, as you say, start with shootouts, you know, they start with, you know, a grab and go basically. And this is a totally different kind of a character.

1:39:12Bart Layton:Totally. And, you know, and again, not naming names, but one of the guys who I based Chris's character on, who's currently serving time, he used to raid mansions and he would do an insane amount of research on the movements of the inhabitants. And he would look at their Instagram. He knew where they were going, what they were up to and all the rest of it. And he would be, he would stake it out and all the rest. So, you know, it was about a very meticulous guy who's got a kind of code of conduct, but also like he's also not infallible. You know, he's a little more like you and I, if we were going to go and rob a bank or steal jewels.

1:39:53Bart Layton:Maybe more like you and not like me.

1:39:56Sean Fennessey:So you keep saying like you find these people and I know you're a documentarian, you've done a lot of true crime work over the years, but like, what do you mean you find these people? Like, where do you find them? How do you get in touch with them?

1:40:06Bart Layton:Well, like, for example, you know, if you're a doc researcher, you'll go, you'll look at, I mean, it doesn't have to be limited to LA, but I kind of wanted a Californian angle on it. And you'll look for news stories or court records of people who've been sentenced for theft of jewels or for literally holding up a courier between an airport and a destination. And then you'll find their names and then you'll find out what they got sentenced to. and then you can find out where they ended up serving their sentence. And then you can send them a letter and most of them have a bit of time on their hands.

1:40:42Sean Fennessey:And do they often want to speak to you? Almost always, yeah. That's so interesting. How do you clarify whether or not you feel like someone is telling you the truth in those circumstances?

1:40:51Bart Layton:I guess it very much depends on whether you're making a documentary or whether you're making a fiction. And if it's a doc, you have to do your due diligence, obviously. but with this because really what i was looking for is the kind of foundations for a character or just to have you know generate when you're writing it generates like great material or inspiration you don't have to kind of go literally you know most criminals you talk to are going to give you a sob story as to why they ended up but what i did find is there was kind of commonality you know there were the same, you know, there was a repetition of some, you know, the fact that many of these guys had been in foster homes and hadn't had a kind of proper adult supervision.

1:41:39Bart Layton:And the fences, like the Nick Nolte character, they often sort of fill that void a little bit. They come in, you know, these kids have come in with a Rolex watch. The fence says, oh okay this is good and then if they're very switched on the fence will tell the kid or the young man hey listen here's a job you can do and and so this relationship begins starts out really small and even the fences actually often have legitimate careers at the same time or have worked in the jewelry industry for a while and nick nolte wanted to go deep i mean he really wanted all of the material that I got.

1:42:18Sean Fennessey:That's a good segue to the, I hope you don't take this as an insult. This is like an overqualified cast for a movie like this. You know what I mean? It is like a very, lots of Oscar nominees. And I, whenever you hear about something like that happening, it's usually like all the stars are like, I wish there were more movies like this and I want to be in movies like this and why doesn't Hollywood make movies like this? And I know that's something you've been talking about even around this film, but why did Nick Nolte and Hallie and Chris and Mark and all these people want to be a part of it? I honestly think that it's a bit of what you said.

1:42:49I think there was a sense that maybe those,

1:42:53Bart Layton:that everyone remembers and loved those kinds of movies and they were sort of sexy and they were compelling and maybe they're not making as many or maybe they're not making them for the cinema. And it was that weird thing of like, I don't think I expected when I sent the script out that it would be like everyone we sent it to as like a first choice would say, yeah, I'm in. In fact, you know, with Chris, he kind of got it, you know, he read it and then I got a call saying he's read it and he is dying to chat. Would you meet him? And I was like, of course. Because I wanted someone who had, you know, had a kind of iconic movie star quality, but I also wanted a version of Chris that we'd never seen before, which was going to be really demanding of him.

1:43:46Bart Layton:So yeah, I think it was a lot to do with that combination of people reading it, feeling like, oh, when was the last one of these? And also, I guess that they'd seen American Animals and The Imposter and they'd loved them, and so that was helpful. And, you know, like with Nick, it isn't a big role, and same with Jennifer Jason Leigh, but I guess if you don't ask, you don't get, right? So you sort of think, well, who would be the absolute perfect person if you could have anyone? And then the worst that's going to happen is they'll say, not for me. And like amazingly, everyone's like, yeah, let's go.

1:44:26Sean Fennessey:I mean, obviously, it just always elevates the material when there's someone who's so special like that. So you're not from Los Angeles and you're making an L.A. crime film. There is a long lineage of wonderful L.A. crime films. Not all of the filmmakers are from L.A. You mentioned Billy Friedkin earlier. He, of course, made To Live and Die in L.A. He's from Chicago. But that's like that is an amazing representation of that city at that time. I wasn't born here, but I've been here almost 15 years now. So I feel very attuned to LA. I think you really did a good job of capturing what this place is like.

1:44:59Sean Fennessey:But you don't live here. I don't know how often you're here. How do you how do you do that? Well, oh, well, thanks for that.

1:45:08Bart Layton:But I guess I'm a menace with prep. I think because, honestly, I felt quite out of my depth. You know, like I'd bitten off a lot when it became a, you know, you're writing in a vacuum and then suddenly it becomes this big movie and I've done a couple of docs in American Animals. And so I do just a relentless amount of prep. And I go, like I just scouted and scouted. And I also felt like, you know, if you spend time, you know, if you're scouting with people from LA and you, you know, you understand how the city works for them and what are the corners that maybe haven't been photographed before and getting that sense, you know, because as you said, a lot of it is about class and it's about the social strata, the rich, you know, there is a gaping and increasing chasm between, you know, the impoverished and the ultra wealthy.

1:46:00Bart Layton:And also there's a kind of topographical divide in terms of where they actually. Yeah. You're more elevated if you have more power and money. And you're more elevated and you're also more isolated. And that's the crazy thing, you know. And I also realized, you know, like you talk about that opening sequence. It starts off in downtown LA at an immigrant family's jewelry store. And that is a real jewelry store owned by a real Iranian family. and in the 45 minutes or however long it takes for a diamond to be sourced from there and arrive at the very fancy jewelry in Calabasas that diamond will have increased in value by I don't even want to say how much because you can be damn sure that the Kardashians aren't going downtown to that store to buy that diamond so that story I was like how do I tell that story in a really compelling way and again it's comes back to this thing of like the smuggling in of all of this stuff and at the same time finding all of those places that hopefully if you're from LA you recognize and you see that there's like truth in those those spaces and I was pretty like you know there were conversations about can we do it and you know we could have made the movie twice in Australia for the money you know but that was a deal breaker for me I was like there's just no away and also coming from docks it's very hard you know like i don't all of the car stuff none of that is blue screen even the car chases which are really like we went as as as kind of close to the danger line as you can go all of that is in camera you know yeah it really it improves it

1:47:45Sean Fennessey:seeing that seeing the entryways to the highways that i am on every day makes the movie feel more authentic and more real. So I guess when you're working at this scale now, how do you know you're getting what you need since you have not done a movie that has these kinds of insane car chases and a major metropolis?

1:48:04Bart Layton:You know, I remember saying my producer who I brought onto this, who also is like a British, like she's done the best of the British indie film, you know, which is, you know, Shane Meadows, Andrea Arnold, you know, So we both were like, and I was, when I was freaking out going, oh man, like I'm way out of my comfort zone. She was like, listen, it's the same work. Ultimately, you might have hundreds more people and more toys, but it's the same work. It's actors in a room and you know how to get that performance. And if you hire this kind of cast, it makes it easier. And then with the like car chase stuff, you know, as long as you've got a really clear, point of view.

1:48:50Bart Layton:You know, as long as your objective is like, and that could be as simple as what would this really feel like? If I wasn't James Bond and I was driving a car at 80 miles an hour through LA chasing a motorbike and all the rest of it, what would that feel? And then you start to think, all right, how do I do this? So we built technology that would allow us to put a kind of proxy handheld camera in a car with Chris Hemsworth when he's really driving that fast and very narrowly missing oncoming precision drivers. But there's always a temptation. You're in a meeting where someone says, oh, what if the motorbike wheelies over three lanes of traffic and at that point you go, that would be very cool, but that's a different movie.

1:49:36Bart Layton:That's John Wick or something, which I love as well. It's super fun. And also, you can do things with cameras, can go in and out of fake windscreens, which you replace and do these amazing, you know, and I was like, we're not doing that. We're doing something that is more visceral. So I think as long as you have a pretty clear sort of, you know, and everything comes down to like character, you know, and I think that was something that someone like Billy Friedkin was incredibly good at, you know, like if you want to know how Popeye Doyle is going to drive, you know, that's going to dictate the whole language of that car chase,

1:50:14Sean Fennessey:you know or whatever it is so one of the reasons why there aren't as many movies like this is because it's not it's harder to sell a movie like this so like how do you think about movie like this goes out in the world you went through with american animals you're like i wish more people saw it but then it catches a word of mouth over time yeah are you like box office nervous are you

1:50:34Bart Layton:excited a little bit i mean i i'm i'm both you know i i'm kind of pinching myself to even be you know i'm driving around the ladder there's billboards there's buses with the poster on you You know, I really hope, like I made it because I wanted to see this kind of thing in the theater. You know, we did a junket in LA, in New York, and loads of journalists came in and they were like, thank you for bringing this back. Yeah. And that's the best you can hear. I don't know, like I really hope that there's still, people are still going to want to go to the cinema for this kind of thing. Because it's sort of some of the most fun you have, you know.

1:51:12I mean, you remember, like, you know, heat is a different thing.

1:51:17Bart Layton:And, you know, I certainly felt like you're making things, it casts a long shadow. You don't want to be influenced by it. You don't want to be emulating it. You just want to do your own thing. But of course, you know, like, I don't know. Like, I remember going and seeing that in the cinema and thinking, wow, you don't get to have much more fun in the cinema than this. And I just wondered where they had gone. So yeah, I'm nervous, but I'm also like, just the fact that we got here, that the studio have been as supportive and as in love with it as they've been to give it a big release and all of that, you know, expensive marketing and stuff.

1:51:56Bart Layton:But you know, there's no guarantee. So in a way, I feel like take the win. You know, the fact that we're here, the fact we had this crazy. You got to make something. Yeah.

1:52:04Sean Fennessey:Yeah. So did you start working on the next thing? well you said it's not going to be eight years so what are you doing? There's a couple of things which are just

1:52:13Bart Layton:yeah there's a couple of things which are exciting and there's a kind of like not quite at liberty to talk about them but yeah it definitely won't be eight years

1:52:25Sean Fennessey:We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen I don't remember what you told me eight years ago I should have looked that up Oh wow oh man

1:52:35Bart Layton:I've been because of the kids getting to a certain age, I've been going back and trying to introduce them to things. So the last great thing, literally the last great thing we saw was The Graduate. I played that for them. Interesting. Was that because they're getting ready to go to college? Yeah, one of them. Yeah, but also just like, I don't know why that's not on more people's top 10 of all time list. It is such an extraordinary thing. And then I played them before that dog day afternoon, which is like, for me, such an influential thing. But yeah, so The Graduate, the last, but if, do you mean like the last thing that's been...

1:53:16Bart Layton:No, those are both good.

1:53:17Sean Fennessey:I'm curious what the kids

1:53:17Bart Layton:thought of them though. Yeah, the kids were completely smitten with The Graduate. I mean, like the middle one who's 15 was like, that's straight in at my greatest, top film of all time. It's crazy.

1:53:33Sean Fennessey:I mean, it's 60 years old now. And it still feels very modern. Is it 60s? Late 60s, yeah. It's like 67, 68, yeah.

1:53:40Bart Layton:Yeah, it's still, and the pace of it is kind of phenomenal. And yeah, like I say, I think maybe in recent times, we've got a little bit kind of like this tendency, in terms of like maybe the Hollywood stuff, maybe a little bit more of a tendency to prioritize kind of action, intensity over emotional intensity. And I still think if you look at those movies that had took the time to really get you into caring about it, you know, your overall experience was much bigger. And I also think the cinema is just this thing that you can't replicate because you watch things. Like, for example, Poor Things was really interesting.

1:54:24Bart Layton:I remember everyone I spoke to who saw Poor Things in the cinema was like, it's a knockout. and a lot of people I spoke to who watched it on a screen or at home were really like middling about it or even didn't finish it. And I think there is this, people forget, you know.

1:54:41Sean Fennessey:Yeah, this is a whole other rabbit hole, but I've been thinking about this a lot because I watch so many movies and I love to only go to screenings in theaters because you are held captive. Like you are literally a prisoner to what is happening and there's so many demands on our attention. in a way that even just sitting in your house, which used to be a nice thing, you'd turn on your TV and watch a movie. Now, that feels harder than it ever has been. So I hear what you're saying and it's great that your movie is going into movie theaters. What was the last great thing you saw? I watched To Live and Die in LA to prepare for this conversation just to get my head on straight about crime movies in LA and everything.

1:55:16Sean Fennessey:You know, after American Hounds, I got, you probably need to wrap up,

1:55:20Bart Layton:but I got summoned to lunch with Billy Freedkin. Tell me about it, yeah. Well, I obviously like, Like, you know, he's a legend and he was a hero. And I went up to his place, which was literally like, if you said, right, like if you said to your art department, build me like the mansion of, because he was married to. Sherry Lansing. He was obviously, you know. And he has like the Roman columns and everything. You know, Chagall, but like a mishmash of every taste and every kind of like, and gold stuff everywhere. It was wild. and obviously what I wanted to come out of the lunch was that he thought I was like the you know that we were best friends so I was a bit like I don't know I but also I just gave I just had a barrage of questions and I was asking him obviously about how they did you know and this was way before I had plans to shoot a car chase you know but how did you do that because it looked so dangerous and the truth was that back then they didn't have the kind of health and safety like Oh, yeah.

1:56:25Bart Layton:It was just dangerous. It was just dangerous. Yeah, they just crossed in front of that train. It was a flipping miracle that people didn't get, you know, in both that and French Connection. Yes. So it wasn't very useful in terms of like coming out with like the secret to how you do it. Because it was like, well, you basically just nearly, you know, kill people and hope you get away with it.

1:56:45Sean Fennessey:Well, you know, it's funny you say that. I was reading about it afterwards and he said, and I don't know how this compares to you doing something like this. you know, it's 40 years later too. So the rules have changed so much, but he shut down the 710 for two consecutive Saturdays and Sundays to do that, you know, the reverse car chase sequence. And then he had the cars going in the wrong direction in the film just because he wanted to confuse the audience. So it was like, you know, it's like the car, it's like they're driving like it's in England in LA in the movie, which you don't even really clock until someone tells you that.

1:57:16Sean Fennessey:And then you're like, so you can't shut down the 710 for two full days in Los Angeles. in 2026.

1:57:22Bart Layton:I mean, you know, this is, you know, crime 101 and it's all about, you know, this string of robberies on the 101 freeway. And we were doing this big sequence on the 101. And at the last minute, like, what is it called? What's the big, you know, um, LA police, you know, that deals with all of that. Anyway, they were like, no, the last minute, no, you're not going to do that. So then we had to basically shut down like blocks and blocks and blocks of, well, I think it it was Lancashire Boulevard or whatever. But when you lock that up, you're not just locking up the junctions. You're locking up, because if someone comes out of their apartment to walk a dog, and you're blazing through in the way that we were, and also you're lighting it, and we're lighting for miles, and we're getting all of the shops to keep their lights on, and the scale of it is mega.

1:58:13Bart Layton:And it's also wildly exhilarating. But we're doing it, and I'm sure those poor people who live on there were not thanking us for it. Anyway, it was worth it. Thanks, brother. Good to see you. Oh, great to see you, mate. Thanks for having me back.

1:58:29Sean Fennessey:Thank you to Bart Layton. Thank you to CR. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders. Thanks to Steve Allman for filling in on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh for production support. Next week, we're circling back to Sinners, including a dive into the film. Have you revisited Sinners recently?

1:58:44Chris Ryan:No, but I was planning to this weekend with my wife who has not seen it.

1:58:47Sean Fennessey:I would encourage people to do that in part because I had an amazing conversation with Autumn Duralt-Archipaugh, the cinematographer of the film. And she was super cool and super nerdy about how she does what she does. Is that part of the podcast? Part of the podcast. So we will see you then.

1:59:19you