Guillermo del Toro’s ‘Frankenstein’ and the Best Frankenstein Movies. Plus: Jennifer Lawrence Is Ablaze in ‘Die My Love.’

22:49Sean Fennessey:That stuff doesn't look great. The CGI in this movie is not very strong. And it sets you up for a certain kind of like adventure monster movie that this just is not. This is a sensitive drama about a scientist and his lost love. And a lot of that stuff is not rendered great and you can dispute it or not. But the movie does that thing that a lot of TV shows do all the time now where they show you the end at the beginning. And then they're like, how did we get here? And then they go back to the very beginning. And then they start telling the story. When they go back to that wide shot in the Arctic, I was like, this is the only truly beautiful thing in this movie.

23:23That's not true. There are a couple other sequences. But they built the goddamn ship. Like the ship looks great. Why is everything around it? I don't know. It looks like a set. And the home, you can see the set. And it's like very, like I guess.

23:34Sean Fennessey:I don't have a problem with that. They're going for like a soundstage thing? I think it's they're going for like the kind of fussiness of this time in history. Sure. You know, especially more in the mansion and the homes. Yeah. That there is like an artificiality to a lot of it because everything is kind of bought and hung. But the thing that I kept thinking about this, even watching this the second time, is that this movie is actually just more interested in the depth of its sets than in the depth of its characters. That it is ultimately, it is beautifully adorned, not beautifully shot. I feel like there's something in the filmmaking style where Del Toro now is like really interested in the wide shot and showing you everything that he built.

24:11Sean Fennessey:But then that detracts a little bit from what he's trying to say. And I felt that all the way up until Elordi comes to life. And we can talk about the merits of that part of the film too. For sure. I don't know. I don't know whether the cinematography, it's flat. It has almost the motion smoothing aspect to it. And I don't know whether that's because it's being engineered for Netflix. I watched it on screens both times, but I assume they were digital. How did it look on film? Did you go see it on film? It didn't change, particularly whenever the CGI comes into play. There's a series of moments, you know, there's a very big explosive scene in the middle of the movie where a tower is on fire.

24:49Sean Fennessey:It just doesn't look good. I mean, it's a$120 million movie. It just doesn't look good. I just kept waiting for the Crimson Peak moment for me, which is like, that's a movie that I think is more style than substance in a lot of ways. But it has so much visual flair and so much love of like color and contrast. And this is so gray. Like other than Elizabeth's dresses where they just have her style to look like a big old bug in a way that I really do like. I think the costuming is very good. The costuming is great. And she, you know, she is wearing red as a motif where everyone else is like very purposefully washed out.

25:20And so she has this beautiful red dress like in one wide outdoor shot. It's outdoors, thank you. And then the red umbrella that follows her. And then I think the sequence one, spoiler alert, she dies and the monster carries her into the tomb and her dress like becomes like a different red. Like this looks beautiful, you know, and this is the images matching like the themes and the setting. But otherwise, yeah, man, it just it looks yucky. And like I'm like kind of remarkably like the like Wicked and like one of the rooms and Wicked, like even the windows. I was like, I've seen those before. And it's right before Elphaba and that guy do like a silent mime dance for 10 minutes.

26:06That's the bummer though, because like Del Toro is one of the few filmmakers who still gets the latitude and the budget to do, at least in a lot of cases, big practical stuff where it looks lavish and they get hundreds of extras. He has a leeway that many guys and women making films do not have.

26:21Sean Fennessey:He's also very vocal about this. I mean, he talks about it constantly, about the necessity of physical creation. And he's been extremely vocal about AI in the last year or so. And to me, I see what he is attempting. I'm a pretty big fan of his. A lot of his movies resonate with me. I do feel like he's kind of just like spinning his own wheels a little bit here in terms of the story. Now, I do want to talk a little bit about what does work in the movie and specifically because you ultimately came out liking it. I think the first half is not very effective personally. I think Lordy has been getting very high marks for his performance.

27:03Sean Fennessey:I think very understandable. I think that's one of the first things that we said when we talked about it out of the festivals. Why is that part so much more effective, do you think, than the first half of this movie? I think his, like, honestly, the creature, and you can tell that del Toro cares about him so much by the fact that it's one of del Toro's most emotionally well-developed characters. Like, he's not someone who spends a lot of time developing a lot of interiority. It's all visual. It's all, again, myth. It's like these very, everyone is kind of filling a role in his stories, typically.

27:33Sean Fennessey:It is archetype, yeah. This feels like someone who, for better or worse, you spend a lot of time inside his head. And now narration from a creature may not be your cup of tea, and I wouldn't blame you if it wasn't. But they actually do dedicate a lot of time in understanding him in a way that they don't even with Victor Frankenstein. Why Victor Frankenstein makes the series of choices that he does, other than he's obsessed in the beginning of the story and then ultimately doesn't even think about what he's going to do if he gets the thing that he wants. The next day, it's kind of like the dog chasing the mailman kind of situation.

28:06Like what would I even do if I caught him? But the story kind of stops there and there's no other exploration of what Victor Frankenstein is about at all really. That's not the case for the creature. And so I think there is something a little more well articulated there. So in the novel

28:20Sean Fennessey:and in other adaptations of this story, the monster is more of a monster and more violent and more responsible for the tragedies in the story. This movie very purposefully shifts almost all of the blame, for lack of a better word, onto Victor. Yeah. That Victor is the architect of everything that is wrong in this world. And, you know, you identified this as daddy issues. I think that's not unfair. I mean, his father is played by Charles Dance, who whips him when he can't name the right, you know, humors or whatever. You know, Charles Dance has already played Victor Frankenstein's father. That's true.

28:57Sean Fennessey:Yes. And then it's just, so there's just a lashing to the face and then he loves his little brother more and then Charles Dance dies. Yes. He's out. And so, well, you did leave out the part where he is like gently fingering a model of a pregnant woman that is like the stand-in for his mom. Yeah, that was pretty weird. And then, you know, and then it's like echoed as her coffin. And also Christopher Walt, the handle of Christopher Waltz's cane, Christoph Waltz's cane is also that same, I think that same figurine that he's toying with. We haven't even talked about Christoph Waltz because in the first half, for some reason, the film, he's introduced a character who is a benefactor that allows Victor Frankenstein to conduct his experiments I guess and that benefactor also wants to be placed into the body of one of his revived corpses because he's dying of syphilis because we all know the stages of the disease yes but this is this is ultimately the situation is you can't have the del Toro decrepit manner if Victor Frankenstein himself had money so somebody has to have money to pay him and apparently it needs to be like a war like someone who A Korean war profiteer.

30:02A war profiteer of a kind who therefore can also provide the bodies to make the Frankenstein. And we learned that you got to take him from the middle of the pile. Yes, very important. Because they've been crushed at the bottom and exposed to the elements up above. Listen, I learned a lot about how Victor Frankenstein puts his science projects together. Yes. And they take really great care in making all the gross muscles and the lymphatic system and everything looks real. Definitely. Like it's, I feel sad for everyone involved that we're talking so much about the CGI. That does look bad because it is clear that so much care went into making so much of this real.

30:42Without a doubt.

30:43Sean Fennessey:I completely agree. But they're working at cross purposes, unfortunately. I think the challenge of this interpretation, and I welcome reinterpretation of any great work of art. I think film is one of, a great medium for someone looking at a classic piece of literature and saying like, what if it was more like this and I turn the dial to the left. In this case, if you make the monster wholly sympathetic, not a little sympathetic, but also dangerous, wholly sympathetic, it kind of drains the juice from the story. Or it makes it Twilight. There is a component of that. There is a component of that.

31:19Sean Fennessey:He just wants a companion. In fact, he's battling wolves, much like in Twilight. I think it just means that the movie's not going to be scary. Boris Karloff built his career on being terrifying. Is this supposed to be scary? An epic romance of Frankenstein to me is not very interesting. Sure. I think if it was going to spend more time with Elordi and more of a psychological character portrait, that might be like a less event-packed film. Yeah. And it might be more internal as you're describing. But it would be different. It would be different enough maybe to justify it. And Elordi is in this interesting position.

31:55Sean Fennessey:One, they've redesigned the monster, right? So the makeup effects, I think, are really good in this movie. They look awesome. His practical visualization is very different from the Karloff character. It's very different from the character that Christopher Lee played in the Hammer films. It's very different from even what's described in the Shelley books, which is like where the skin is like hanging off of the character, and it's much more grotesque. This is like, it's kind of like Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen. A little bit. You know, like a kind of a lean, powerful, sutured figure. Is that the guy that has sex to Hallelujah?

32:29Sean Fennessey:I think that's everyone. Yes, it is. Thank you for knowing that. Okay. Can we just say that the creature design is by Mike Hill, who works with Del Toro. Yes, and frequently does amazing work. And, you know, if you've seen Hellboy or, you know, even, I mean, what is the shape of water? The creature design is amazing in that movie. I mean, that's a very fuckable fish man. Absolutely. And he got fucked. Canonically. I like how he looks. I like Elordi's performance, which is kind of in the tradition of a lot of silent cinema actors where he has to be tremendously expressive. He basically only gets to say the word Victor for roughly 40 minutes of the movie before he is taught by a kindly blind man how to spell and read.

33:13How to read John Milton. Yes.

33:14Sean Fennessey:He just turns out he's a visual learner. We're going about this the wrong way. He is. Now my favorite shot in the movie when David Bradley is holding a card that says, eye and then the camera zooms in on his eye and I was like okay again this is not the place you come for subtlety it's just not it's not um and then Elordi eventually he learns the power of language and he protects the kindly old man until he can and he learns about Paradise Lost he does and you know Paradise Lost obviously very important to Shelley and I think it's featured prominently in the novel as well as like a signpost for the for the creature but the movie does then ultimately just become kind of like a revenge drama in the second half where the monster revisits his former home, reads some papers strewn about after the fire.

34:03Sean Fennessey:It's like there's a full-blown tower fire. Every single guy. Right. And then there's some papers around and he's like, oh, so this is how I came to be a person. In the novel, I think, if I recall, the papers are in the clothes. It's a little more organic. They're inside the computer.

34:25Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think there's a couple of like storytelling mechanic stuff that is a little wonky. And then it just becomes like the Antarctic Chase movie into the finale. And I don't know. I didn't think this was very good. Mia Goth Innocent. Oh, yeah. Here's the problem. Yeah. She, of course, to me, is a living legend. I will watch her do anything. Right. She needs to be crazy to be really effective in a movie. And this is a very demure, empathetic character. I mean, this is like, you know, manic pity pixie goth girl. She just like, she really likes insects, guys. She loves them. Yeah. And like, and weird things.

35:01And it's, you know, and she loves him too. I mean, Del Toro has a type, right? Like two types. Like you're either pale and severe or you're pale and naive. And she's in the pale, she's in the Chastain mold. Yes. The Cate Blanchett mold of what he likes to do. She's perfectly fine in this. Perfectly good. I was talking with Jack Sanders before. I'm curious about what the sex appeal of Jacob Elordi as the creature is in this movie because Elizabeth seems very calm. Like she meets him and within moments has grabbed his hands and put them around her throat. This is a woman who understands what she wants.

35:34But will audiences have a similar response? I honestly don't know. He's tall. He's tall. It's like that is, I mean, that is Jacob Elordi and he's just like very tall and he just has tall energy wherever he goes. And it works. Was there any part of you that sees him as a mute giant man in a diaper and is like, I can fix him. I don't know if I could fix him. Yeah. I'm, you know, I've matured past that. Sure. You know, you can never fix. You can only meet them where they are.

36:02Sean Fennessey:Would you agree to be made his undead companion as he demands at the end of the film? No, because he seems pretty unhappy. You have bride energy though. Do I? Yeah. Elsa, Lanchester, bride energy. Not like being a bride at a wedding. No, no, no. I famously hated that. No, you don't have that energy. No, you have, I am a shrieking undead monster. Okay, that's fine with me. But it just, it does seem like a long time to just go around. Like, he seems pretty uncomfortable. You mean forever? Yeah. He is indestructible. Is this Frankenstein a little too powerful? You want to power set him? He has Captain America's powers.

36:42Sean Fennessey:I mean, he is indestructible. He can take bullets. He's pushing a ship all by himself to lose it free. I don't know. Is Captain America more powerful than Superman? No. Okay. Why did you invoke Captain America instead of Superman? Well, I think you could probably burn the creature to death. Can you? Well, he's... I think so. Well, I guess he escaped the fire. I think he wouldn't heal. But he literally catches on fire and says, I feel my flesh regrowing. Yeah. But if you burned him out before it could regenerate. Maybe. I feel like this guy's indestructible. So we learned a lot. That's just magic.

37:15Jim, impromptu science corner. Impromptu science corner.

37:19Sean Fennessey:Welcome to Amanda Dobbins' Science Corner.

37:26So we learn that there's some sort of electricity that they got to plug into the double lymphatic system, which is just above the heart and you're going in through the spine. Yes, correct. So you got to short circuit the electricity. Uh-huh. where was the electricity coming from I will lightning lightning they harness the lightning so

37:50Sean Fennessey:this is how it happens in every Frankenstein film I think I went to the bathroom twice this is the most epic set piece of the film you think it's just like really dark in there and I was like this sucks you know and I was like that looks like wicked when he gets into a dispute with Christoph Waltz's character yes Christoph Waltz attempts to steal one of the tools that's going to attach that allows the electricity to run a current into the corpse's body. Right. One of those tools, one of those prongs falls on the ground and bends. Okay. And it bends ever so slightly to the right. Yep. Okay. And when it's retrieved and screwed on, you see that somehow this tool, it's all very phallic, doesn't totally work properly and because of this bend, this has somehow given the monster the powers of immortality.

38:37I think that's a limited experience and a limited worldview. But anyway.

38:42Sean Fennessey:What do you mean? I'm just saying, you know? Let me go, continue. Okay. I, the monster's very powerful in all of the stories. Yeah. It has superhuman strength and everything, but he is legit a superhero. He is a superhero. So you don't think that if you caught the lightning again and like, you know, short-circuited the lephatic system? I sat through a lot of science in this movie. So now we're going to discuss it. Honestly, the science is one of the best parts. The models, the designs, again, like the lymphatic notes. I just am like, probably you could reverse the current if you had the right tools.

39:19Are you a physicist?

39:21Sean Fennessey:I wasn't very good at physics. Too theoretical. So, as you know, some of my heritage is Swiss. We know. Every World Cup we hear about it. This film features a bunch of Swiss people. This is very much what Swiss people are like. Swiss people are like, I know what the answer is. like they're just quite sure that they know how the lymphatic system will be re-energized with the current and I'd like to salute them for acknowledging the Swiss for their hubris collectively what else do you want to say about this movie what else do you like about it how much can we talk about like the ending ending let's put a casing around it and say if you don't want to hear the ending I mean it's Frankenstein it's not that different from Frankenstein it is a little different than Frankenstein I would say one of the departures is changing it from the normal kind of climactic end of Frankenstein in which, yes, the creature survives to one in which the message of it ultimately is around forgiveness, right?

40:11And this is where the idea of him being superpowered, I think, is kind of compelling. A lot of Guillermo del Toro stuff treats eternal life as like an unbelievable curse, an incredible burden. And if you were burdened with eternal life, one of the great burdens would be forgiving every asshole who ever does you wrong, including your kind of father who cobbled you together from respective corpses. And so you can see like the interest in telling a story about like, the larger human command being to forgive. If you are tasked with living forever, the greatest thing you could do would be to forgive the people who have wronged you.

40:44And I think that it's a moving sentiment that maybe doesn't quite get all the way there.

40:48Sean Fennessey:To me, I read the very ending as, again, a somewhat simple-minded echo of something that Victor says to the monster earlier in the film, which is when he is exposed to sunlight. Yeah. He says, sunlight, go into the sun. Sun gives you life. When the movie ends, He's pushed the ship off. They take off on their journey and he stands alone in the sunlight. And now he's a creature that has life. Yeah. That's fine. That's like a little hallmark for me. Where are they getting the brains? Like, are they wholesale or are they piecing together his brain? You mean like, are they getting them from Ralph's?

41:23No, no, no. Is it like...

41:24Sean Fennessey:Is it a whole food situation? Well, I'd like to know. I'd like to... I'm trying to understand his memory and functions. Trader Joe's brain is incredible. The frozen ones, come on. Are they just taking a wholesale brain from some guy in the war? Yes. Because Christoph Waltz wanted it to be his brain. He wants it to be his brain. Right. So why doesn't he have the brain of someone, you know, of that guy? Why doesn't he have those memories? I don't know how the human soul works, I got to say. I don't know. You just circled back to Science Corner here. Again, Science Corner is about asking or answering questions.

41:56I said it's a robust dialogue. Okay. This is the scientific method at work. We're not coming in saying this is what Tylenol does to you. We're all going to put on wigs like those people sitting in the bleachers when he reanimates people. And we're just, we're going to discuss. Honestly, that would be great content. We have someone standing in the middle of an auditorium, a bunch of bringer staffers around them in powdered wigs, shouting them down, encouraging them. Just like a real yay or nay situation based on takes a look.

42:20Sean Fennessey:I have a note about that sequence, which features the great Ralph Inneson, who I love, one of the great voices in movies. He's very effective in this movie, too, as one of the sort of like science judges who's telling the doctor to leave immediately. But what Dr. Frankenstein in that sequence shows them with the, you know, top half of the human, you know, the head and the chest and that functioning hand. When he throws him the ball and that corpse catches that ball, everybody in that room in what is the story taking place? 1855? Yeah. Would be like, what? This is the single craziest thing that has happened in the history of the world.

42:56Sean Fennessey:That this man revived a body and made it react. and these three old men, I understand that they would be afraid. Yes. And that there is something against God in the work. Undoubtedly. But to just like scuttle it and be like, we'll never talk of this again? The craziest thing that has happened in the history of civilization? Yeah. You guys buy that? You sound a little bit like a tech bro defending AI right now, just to put it on record. It's changing the world. That's not very nice. That's not how I feel about AI at all. Okay. I think that this movie, what you said earlier is very true which is that despite our many complaints and grouchy attitude about this people do like this movie and they would have gone to see it it probably would have been I don't know about a massive hit but it would have been successful something I also saw it in a movie theater yesterday at the Chinese which is a huge room the IMAX theater at the Chinese theater and it was about three quarters full in the afternoon on a Wednesday Los Angeles is a unique town absolutely it is I thought it played well with the crowd, not great, but I'd like to tell you a crazy story.

44:01Sean Fennessey:I sat down, I got there a little early for the movie and I sat in the front row of the upper section so that I could stretch my legs as much as I wanted and watched the - Just the height of privilege for you. Yes, truly. I watched the previews and then just as the film was starting, a very tall person walked past me to sit down two seats next to me. This person was wearing a black hoodie and boots and it was Jacob Elordi. Wow. Wow. And I had some... Honestly... I had some reservations about sharing this because I don't want to put this guy on front street. Sure. I thought for certain you were going to say LeBron James.

44:36No.

44:36Sean Fennessey:And I have really nothing else to say other than he watched this movie and he seemed to admire Oscar Isaac's performance because he was kind of laughing at some key moments. Yes. But it was fascinating to be watching the movie sitting beside the monster. Wow. And I felt a little uncomfortable. and it also was like it was humanizing you know he's an artist I just saw this morning some images of him taking photos out of costume during the production of the movie because you know one I think he's an aspiring photographer and two he obviously was kind of blown away by the world that they had created and it gave me like maybe a little bit more empathy for the process of this film did he have a bag with him I don't know it's just all of these experiences I mean, I was sitting in the dark.

45:24Still, I think you would be able to spot the patella. He ate popcorn. You know? Oh, okay, that's good.

45:29Sean Fennessey:He ate popcorn. Right, I mean, fine. It's fine. He was very polite when he walked past me to go to the restroom. Okay, great. I realize this is the social clip that's getting pulled from this episode. It's not like this is a social clip. It's just you saying, I saw Jacob Elordi one time and he ate popcorn. And people want that. This is the catnip, right? But I didn't just see him. I saw him during the film Frankenstein. Also, I like how now you're like, well, I sat there because I wanted to stretch my legs out because I too am tall like Jacob Elordi. I know. Yeah, nice try. Well, I'm not as tall as Jacob Elordi, but I'm tall enough to need to stretch my legs.

46:01Sean Fennessey:I'm not even as tall as Rob Mahoney. Right. We're doing our best, the tall guys of America. We truly are. It's our burden, you know? Yes. So anyway, I just thought I would share that. Okay. That's nice. That's very sweet that he wanted to do that. I do think that's very sweet. Yeah. I was wondering how many times, if at all, he had seen it. Of course, he has been to the premiere of the film, but I, you know, a lot of filmmakers and actors can't watch their work or don't want to see themselves on screen. So in Venice, they tend to, they're front and center, so they don't leave. So if you're there at the premiere, you're there for it.

46:29Sean Fennessey:You might have had the same mentality that I had, and I assume you had too, which is like, I want to see this on the big screen before I can't see it on the big screen anymore. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? ZepBound Terzepatide may be able to help. ZepBound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. ZepBound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection.

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49:05Sean Fennessey:Awards chances. Now, Rob, on the show. It's like 4 ,000. In recent weeks, we have been noting that it's been rising in the estimation of festival goers and seemingly some voting bodies. Yeah. We've kind of firmly planted it right smack in the middle of our Best Picture power rankings for Best Picture. I know you're not an expert, but you're assuming that this movie is going to make it into Best Picture? On a gut level, that still sounds surprising to me. Why do you say that? I don't know. I guess, to me, it is so mid-level Del Toro. It does have an audience, but is it going to be enough of an awardsy audience and that kind of pull?

49:42And ultimately, I think whether it gets in is going to depend more on how the Alordi performance in particular sits with people. And if that's one that people are championing and feels like something that is rising to the top of the pile, then all of a sudden Frankenstein just gets into the mix in a totally different way.

49:57Sean Fennessey:What do you think at this point? I think there's a huge amount of affection for Del Toro and there's a huge admiration for all of the production design and costume design and physical work that did go into this movie. So despite the CGI of it all, I think you'll have below the line, you know, categories stacking up. And that will, that kind of brings the movie to more people's attention. It's getting, you know, audience favorite awards at festivals. Jacob Elordi is pretty good and also has a significant following of, you know, me and many other people. He's a good person you want to see at the Academy Awards.

50:31Sean Fennessey:Exactly. You want to see a young star like him at the Academy Awards. So I am just because of the weird best picture year, which we say every year now, there's no normal year. But the weird Netflix slate where it's just, it's a little early and it's hard to see how it's going to shake out. But they've got House of Dynamite. They've got J. Kelly. They've got Frankenstein. And they've got Train Dreams, which I'm going to see this weekend. And this seems like the grabbiest at this point. I agree with that. So let's talk about Best Supporting Actor. Okay. Very interesting slate of potential nominees here.

51:12Sean Fennessey:We've got Benicio Del Toro for One Battle After Another. Banger. Adam Sandler for Jay Kelly. We've got Delroy Lindo for Sinners. We've got Stellan Skarsgård for Sentimental Value. We've got Sean Penn for One Battle After Another. We've got Paul Meskel for Hamnet. Oh, yeah. It's a loaded category. Yeah. And if you want to throw Myles Caten in from Sinners 2, you can do that as well. Deserving. If you want to throw Jeremy Strong in for Springsteen, maybe don't do that. That is... It's going to not be easy for Lordy to get in. I think there has to be a really strong appreciation for him because I feel like at this point, I feel strongly about Sean Penn and Benicio.

51:53Sean Fennessey:I feel strongly about Sandler, even though he's never been nominated before. And I feel strongly about Stellan Skarsgård. that fifth spot is kind of where he would go. And Delroy Lindo was overlooked for the Five Bloods recently. Maybe there's a sense that he needs to be recognized before it's too late. He's so fabulous in Senators 2. He's really great. Great. They need to run a really good campaign for him, I think, for that to work out. So you're saying Elordi needs to run a campaign. Did it ever occur to you that he followed you into that theater and was like, you know what? I need to get a little word of mouth going.

52:26I need to get a little goodwill. It's very sweet of you to say. I'm just saying. I think we all know

52:29Sean Fennessey:that that's not true. If in fact he has a chance there, then you do need to see costume design, makeup and hairstyling, score, visual effects. Even if you don't like it, it's in play. Yeah. Okay. Editing, maybe if there's a ton of support. Director, if there's an overwhelming amount of support. As you said, he has a lot of friends and has really liked. And he does a thing when I saw Nosferatu last year, he conducted the Q &A with... Yeah, he's the champion. Yes. He's the ombudsman of horror, basically. And I guess anything kind of horror adjacent. Yes. So I won't be surprised if this ends up getting six or seven or eight nominations, honestly.

53:10Sean Fennessey:Well, the design makeup stuff is a lock, I would think. I totally agree. As far as where he's at, so he's now made his fable, his vampire movie, his kaiju movie, his gothic romance, two comic book films, his noir, his universal monster movie, another Universal Monster movie, his Pinocchio, and his Ghost Story. He's kind of touched all sides of the Dungeons & Dragons die of genre filmmaking. I mean, he really has explored kind of the farthest reaches. And one thing that I have been a little bit disappointed by, even though I really liked Nightmare Alley, is it's been a long time since he's made an original movie.

53:51Yeah.

53:51Sean Fennessey:And I feel like he's a little lost in the sauce and not leaning into what really animates him. Like the guy who made Kronos and Devil's Backbone. Like I want to see that guy. Sure. Well, and Pan's Labyrinth. It's Pan's Labyrinth, yes. That's his masterpiece as far as I'm concerned. And that's like, that's an original tale that doesn't feel original. I would also love to see him make something contemporary for the first time in like 20 years. Like everything is period all the time. And I know you love, again, like a Victorian manor and a certain kind of like buttoned up dress. And you want like the butterflies and the moths everywhere.

54:24Like that's cool. but can we do something set in the present day? No, it is hard to have original ideas. You're describing things that he had when he was younger. And I think that there is something to the idea he's been wanting to make this movie his whole career. And because he couldn't, or for whatever reason, he got forced into other ways to interpret it. The projects that you wait forever for are sometimes a little labored. And so, you know, I don't know. He's done a lot. Give him credit for that. But I agree. I mean, I don't want another monster movie. I'm sure I'll get one. There's going to be a monster in it.

55:02Yeah. The monster is us.

55:04Sean Fennessey:I mean, every time, no matter what. The movie of his that I have always longed for is At the Mountains of Madness, which is a H.P. Lovecraft adaptation that he was going to make in the 2000s with Tom Cruise. It is like an epic cosmic horror monster movie that would have been on the same scale as Pacific Rim, but would have been more of a period kind of adventure story. That also is not original, but it would have been a little bit outside of the realm of a lot of the stuff that he's been doing in the last few years. You know, I want the best for him. I do too. I hope he's happy. And he shouldn't take any notes from me.

55:40Sean Fennessey:He should do whatever he wants. But it's just something that I'm saying that I want. Well, I do think we zeroed in on it, which is if we thought of the film more favorably, then the through lines would feel different. It would feel like something that's like part of a scholarly text. of it. The line from Nightmare Alley to Pinocchio to here, you can see the daddy issues. You can see the interest in investigating post-war or simultaneous war implications. All that stuff is kind of there in a way that is interesting. And this just feels like, to me, between the three of those, kind of the relative dud at the end of the line.

56:10But there's an arc there that I can see what he's driven by and see what he's interested in. And maybe that arc has closed, and now we're onto something new and something interesting in a way that at a certain point in Pacific Rim felt like a huge departure. And that movie is as good as that kind of movie as you can make.

56:26Sean Fennessey:To me, that was his attempt and success at a general crowd-pleasing blockbuster. I was very pleased. It was like a summer movie, and there's big robots and monsters, and he's having fun. And it was effective. They didn't have the weight of expectation and artistry that comes with Frankenstein. Just give me five minutes to talk about the Frankenstein movie, okay? You go, girl. So there have been so many of these kinds of movies over the years. and even right now there is an animated film that I've not seen that is in theaters called Stitch Head which is just a riff on the Frankenstein story because it's Halloween time.

57:00Sean Fennessey:Yeah. In March Maggie Gyllenhaal's movie The Bride comes out. Christian Bale is playing the monster. Yep. Jesse Buckley moments before grabbing her first Academy Award will be appearing as The Bride. I think the best Frankenstein movies is pretty consistently usually a boring list because the original whale film and then his follow-up The Bride of Frankenstein are often cited as like the best and the most important and are taught in film schools the world over and still work if you show them to a seven-year-old. They're still effective. They're still scary. They still have this incredible sense of atmosphere that is undeniable.

57:36And then Hammer Films from England.

57:39Sean Fennessey:The best one I think is The Curse of Frankenstein. New Warner Brothers Archive 4K out there. You gonna check it out? Good job. Okay. Congratulations. Flesh for Frankenstein, Paul Morrissey's adaptation. I know Rob's seen it. He's a fan. It's really good. It's sort of a double Frankenstein story. A man and a woman are simultaneously revived. This movie could have used a little more Flesh for Frankenstein. You have to let the monster and Victor be depraved. The best way, Amanda, to harness the lightning is to let the freak flag fly. You've got to really raise it up there and let these guys be weirder.

58:12And weirdly enough, for a Guillermo movie, they're not weird enough. You know what I was thinking about during this movie yesterday? Do you remember? There was sort of a frankly disrespectful meme format about five to ten years ago when someone would die. A notable person would die. Everyone would tweet like so-and-so taught me how to be weird. And this is sort of like Frankenstein taught me how to be weird, the movie. Yeah. I just, you know. And there we go. I also just scrolled down on your list and there's an X-Files episode on here. So I'm going to need you. I'm going to get to that. It's a great episode.

58:42That's okay. Let's just keep it moving.

58:46Sean Fennessey:Two quick ones. Depraved is Larry Fessenden's reimagining of this where a U.S. soldier who dies is revived. This is a very clever take on it. I did watch Mary Shelley's Frankenstein this morning, the Kenneth Branagh adaptation with Robert De Niro as the monster. A fascinating piece of movie history because the script that Frank Darabont wrote for that before he went on to make The Shawshank Redemption is considered one of the great movie scripts and one of the great adaptations in movie history and Kenneth Branagh kind of fucked it. And Guillermo del Toro himself said, I read that script and that made me want to make Frank's movie, his vision for the movie.

59:21Sean Fennessey:The version that we got is like way operatic and crazy and Branagh is like shirtless through half of it and is like really showing off those abs. Not a successful movie. Interesting movie. The list of movies that Kenneth Branagh kind of fucked is extensive. It's getting longer. This is like right during the Emma Thompson, Helen Bottom Carter of it all. It's just, it's not what you want. Helen Bottom Carter featured prominently in Frankenstein. I can't imagine why. Okay. To me, Frankenstein is better for the inspired by movies. So, very quickly, a list. Edward Scissorhands is Frankenstein. Two thumbs up.

59:54Sean Fennessey:Absolutely. The Spirit of the Beehive, the great Spanish film, is all about young kids seeing Frankenstein and then being changed forever. Robocop is Frankenstein. Yeah. The Rocky Horror Picture Show is Frankenstein. Phantom of the Paradise, De Palma's movie, Frankenstein. Reanimator, one of the greatest horror movies ever, Frankenstein. Poor Things just came out recently. Frankenstein. Gods and Monsters, the biopic about James Whale. Frankenstein. Gothic, the Ken Russell movie about a bunch of horror writers getting together and scaring each other. Frankenstein. The X-Files, the postmodern Prometheus, one of the best episodes of The X-Files, I think.

1:00:28Sean Fennessey:It's a legendary episode. Black and white episode. Super funny. Features tons of riffs from the Whale movie. Yes. Really good. I mean, it's like, what if there were a version of Frankenstein that were obsessed with Cher and could you save him by taking him to see Cher live? That's the textual plot of the episode. I appreciate that. Yeah. Frankenstein is also ripe for comedy. Young Frankenstein, the Mel Brooks movie, one of the funniest movies ever made. Frankenstein, but okay. Frankenstein, thank you. Frankenhoeker, have you seen that, Amanda? No, but you have talked about it many times. It's about a prostitute who is killed in a lawnmower accident and then revived.

1:01:02Sean Fennessey:Why are you talking about this so many times? It's an interesting film. Weird Science, also kind of in the Frankenhoeker zone. Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein. Knox and I have seen this. Oh, great. Yeah, because they were showing it in like an academy museum. Was he scared of the monster? No, he was laughing. He picked up on the funniest. It's good. It's funny. I think it was last year, so it was before he had learned that things were scary. Yes, we're going to do that now too. Yeah, but no, loved it. It was great. And Tim Burton again, Frankenweenie is a very overt riff on this. Frankenstein is forever.

1:01:33Sean Fennessey:This Frankenstein, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. So let's talk about Die, My Love, which is, is it a movie about monsters? Amanda, I ask you. It's a movie about the process of creation and creating a life. Undoubtedly. Absolutely true. We have inadvertently thematically nailed this episode. So this is the new film from Lynn Ramsey. It stars Jennifer Lawrence, Robert Pattinson, Lakeith Stanfield, Nick Nolte, Sissy Spacek. Perhaps you've heard of those actors. It is about a young couple who moved from New York to Montana. I guess they're in search of a quieter life. They are about to be parents. Are they parents already when they arrive?

1:02:09Sean Fennessey:It's kind of flickering across the spectrum, I think. She might be pregnant, but, you know, things are not really communicated. They're literal, but plot details are sparse. Yes, this is not a traditional, literal narrative film. It is very much a film about experience. And in this film, we see the relationship between this couple. They have a child. And then everything that unfurls from there. So I will start with you, Amanda. Oh, thank you so much. What did you think of Dying My Love? I think as we near the end of the year that this is one of my favorite movies of the year it is catered directly to me in fact I saw a woman outside of a different screening Jack and I ran into each other after I saw Die My Love and they and he was there for something else and someone overheard hey I just heard you saw Die My Love and I what'd you think and I said I loved it but I am also 11 months postpartum at this moment um hilariously I also went on a date with my husband.

1:03:04So we were sitting there watching this couple in a very serious, similar and serious phase of life go through these experiences. And I have a pretty fraught relationship with like mom culture, not just mom movies, but mom books and mom. Yeah. Mom email. Yeah, just like mommy emails, mama.

1:03:23Sean Fennessey:Can I just tell you? Yeah. Hang in there, mom. But not even just the like, you got this mama bullshit, but like there have been a lot of novels and like quote unquote attempts at like high art to talk about what it is to be a mother. And I seldom connect. That's probably a me thing. I'm not a joiner, but I just, they don't, well, they speak to someone else's experiences, not to mine. And for everything that is like similar about a large percentage of this world population, everybody has a different experience. This spoke to me. This is about, it is about the weird and terrifying experience of postpartum.

1:04:09It is about depression. It is about postpartum depression. It's like, you know, it is the thing separate and apart. And I think if you've experienced one, you'll relate to some of it. If you've experienced both, you'll relate to it more. But I found the, like the vignettes and the presentation of this phase of life, um, and like new life essentially to be just so accurate of all of the emotions and just wildly weird, dissociative, isolating feelings that go on in this moment. I found it like very funny. Both my husband and I were like laughing a lot and like shout out to him for going and being like, yeah, that was good because Robert Pattinson is portrayed just like a really, you know, he's basically not there.

1:05:04And that's part of the thing. And I think he does a great job in it. But so I, I thought it was like, I I'll stop talking. Did you guys like it? I'll let you go, Rob. I spent most of this movie wanting to throw up and I loved it. Loved every second of it. I mean, it is very my shit in that experiential, like impressionistic kind of way. And I think he gets at something, like it's so weird that this and If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You are coming out so close together. They're both kind of reaching for something similar, both really effectively. But it gets into this like very primal thing that like there is a part of all of us that is hanging the wallpaper and baking the cake and trying to participate in society.

1:05:47And then there is the voice at the back of your head that just is telling you to run into the woods and never look back. And my understanding, again, very secondhand, is that postpartum mothers maybe experience that more acutely than basically anyone else. Yeah. And so turning that into this very visceral feeling over the course of this movie is just overwhelmingly effective.

1:06:07Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think it's a pretty great movie. It's very much in the tradition of all of Lin Ramsey's movies, which are about these experiences of profound alienation and feeling completely disconnected and unable to really like be seen and understood, right? Jennifer Lawrence's character in this movie is experiencing something that millions of mothers experience. But that feeling is like, why can't anyone understand how I feel right now? And why won't they accept how I feel as being normal? And that is a really hard thing to translate into a film. And it's really interesting that, you know, you said the Mary Bronstein's movie, this is even in one battle after another, the Profitie Beverly Hills character expresses this.

1:06:48Sean Fennessey:And there have been a lot of movies about the challenges of motherhood. What was the Amy Adams film that we talked about on the show? Night Bitch. It's just impossible to watch this and not think about Night Bitch. I know, which is like... So funny, I did not think about Night Bitch once, even though you guys had a great episode. I appreciate that. And I did think that Night Bitch portrayed some of the difficulties of having a toddler. Sure, it did. Like, I've been there and I see it sort of way. That movie was more about a certain vision of parenting maybe then because I don't see this movie as entirely about motherhood.

1:07:20Sean Fennessey:I feel like it's much more about the female psychology, like the like the expressions of it because she does spend time mothering her child in the film. Yeah. But I wouldn't say that that is like the thrust that like it's much more about the ways in which she is seeking like relief from her experiences or like and the movie very complicatedly explores what is like a desire dream what is a nightmare and then what is the practical reality of what is happening to me and it's not really too worried about you understanding which is which at any given time in the film right i think the implication is that she also doesn't totally know i mean i think that it communicates a very specific feeling postpartum which is that you are like physically and emotionally tied to this other thing that was, was, was you and that you did create.

1:08:18I mean, it is about like the consequences of creation and now it exists.

1:08:23Sean Fennessey:It's like when your baby looks at you and says, you are the monster. But now it exists outside of you. But, but so there's like, there, there are still physical, like biological and emotional connections that are, and, and things that are messing with your head and your body that are like of you, but are also completely separate and, and sort of random and come from nowhere. And so one minute you can be like really happy and then you are very angry and then you're very stressed out. And then, and then, and you like love this baby, but also like you feel like you're going to throw up because you don't know what to do about it.

1:09:02And like it really like is dissociative. That's the only way that I can describe the experience. And it feels like it is coming from from somewhere else. Like the call is not coming from inside the house, even though it is. And I thought that this the disconnected style of this movie and also like the very feral physical performances, like really communicate that kind of person who's lost, not just in her body, but in the world. Yes. And how much of it is animalistic. Like it really is. Totally. It's so fucked up. The whole experience is so. This is the thing, yeah. I mean, I guess it's like amazing or whatever.

1:09:43Like mama, look what you did. But like also. You did it, girl. I know, but it is, it's just, it is really, you feel like you're in a nature documentary.

1:09:53Sean Fennessey:It's not a miracle, you're a miracle. It feels so, it is really, really bizarre. So I loved it. I found myself a little disappointed when it got more literal. Yeah. And I mean, this is a person with like serious postpartum depression, which is real and also which I had. So, you know, like it happens to many people and there's no shame around it. And also getting help is really good. But I found that once the character like is hospitalized and they pin down like this is what's going on. here and this is it's less a statement of fact and more like something to be solved yeah which i guess like is that's what we want in life you know and like that's what's good for the character and i guess is maybe the only like story arc that's possible you know but and i guess it's a movie so it has to have a story but it doesn't like i think that's i mean i don't think so yeah I struggled with that a little bit too, just because I feel like it breaks the spell of the movie a little bit.

1:10:55Like it does ground it in a way that isn't just like uncomfortable, but I feel like it's just kind of spinning its wheels until we can get back to the experiential bits. I get why it happens logically. Like I'm sure there are some audiences who would just watch this and think like, why aren't you checking this woman in somewhere? Right. And I think the movie actually does a good job of that through the lens of Robert Pattinson's character, where yeah, that guy is like feckless and absent and interesting in a way that some of the other analogs in some of these other movies about parenthood. The husbands are not.

1:11:24So like there's something there and there are scenes genuinely where it's like my wife just ran headfirst through a glass door. Like what am I supposed to do in a way that is understandable and yet I just don't want to see the hospital sequence. I just want to stay with Jennifer Lawrence because like everything she's doing in this movie is fucking electric.

1:11:41Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I definitely want to talk about her and what she brings to this movie. The thing that you're saying, which is like this movie's attempt to kind of wrangle itself into a narrative film is a real challenge. There is, we were talking about Frankenstein. There's another 19th century piece of literature that this reminded me of, The Yellow Wallpaper. I'm sure you've read it. It is also very much about kind of like female alienation, loneliness, and mania. The bell jar is about this. Like there's other, and it's hard to make those stories cinematic because they're taking place in someone's mind.

1:12:14Sean Fennessey:Right. And this movie, I think, probably gets about as close as you possibly can because it has Lynn Ramsey creates these series of surrealist images of what may or may not be happening inside of this person's head which is largely effective we don't know like our empathy is with Lawrence but she's also doing things that we're just like why did you do that yeah and it makes the movie like it's not on a track it's an experience and it's not if you sit down and people listen to this show and they're like oh you're Jennifer Lawrence Robert Pattinson movie. It's like, reset your expectations from what you're going to witness.

1:12:51Sean Fennessey:And I think if you're a mother or a parent or child who has some empathy for this experience, you'll understand it a little bit better. But it is an audacious piece of filmmaking. The story is that Martin Scorsese read this book in a book club. And he thought, Jennifer Lawrence should play this woman, which is an interesting thing to think. Isn't she also in the book club? I don't think so. Oh, she's not? I don't think so. I thought that they were in the book club together. I think she was contacted by him and said, I just, he said, I just read this book and I think you should, you should do this.

1:13:24Sean Fennessey:And her production company optioned the book. And I'm just going to, I gave away some of this when we talked about no hard feelings a couple of years ago, but I'm not done a one 80 on a performer. So dramatically, like probably in my life in 2015, 14, 13, when she was winning Academy Awards and was the toast of Hollywood, I was very vocally like this girl is a bumpkin. this performance style is no good this is not interesting to me at all this is the most like affected like older men like putting a 22 year old in a position and like not protecting her and letting her just be like frivolous and weird I was pretty mean spirited about it I don't feel good about that but I do think that she has transformed herself into an amazing and fearless actor and she takes parts now we talked about this on the stone last week on the show she too is now like I made the Hunger Games like I'm good But it's time to try something that is significantly more audacious and bold.

1:14:18Sean Fennessey:And she's really great in this movie. And I did not know this until I listened to her on the New York Times interview podcast. She was pregnant while she made this film. Unbelievable. Which is quite crazy. I could tell. But that's only because I mean, because she is like extremely naked. And it was more about the breastfeeding scene where I was just kind of like, what's going on here and how is this physically possible? and then I was like oh that must be but she I mean she's just like she is quite literally tits out but not in a sexual way in a this is like my body is leaking sort of way and I loved it she's it's there was an Emma Stone quote in the New Yorker piece that I think the Martin Scorsese anecdote comes from and it's like there's a old theater in Adage if an actor is on stage with a cat who are you going to watch?

1:15:11the actor or the cat. The audience would watch the cat, Stone explained, because it's going to respond genuinely in the moment while the actors are still acting. It's that quality, Jen's the cat. I think, I mean, you know, Emma Stone is very good at giving quotes about the nature of acting and other things. But I was like, that is true. She just turns on or like turns off her Jennifer Lawrence and is in the moment of wherever she is in a way that is astounding.

1:15:37Sean Fennessey:If you listen to her talk on this, well, first of all, Jen's the cat, certainly recalls Bill Simmons's Paul George as a cat. Sure, yeah. A legendary movie of podcasting history. Paul George and Jennifer Lawrence, two 34-year-olds who are transforming their identity every day. Where's Paul George? He's in the garage. That's a lot in common. It was a great moment.

1:15:58Sean Fennessey:Don't know where to go from there. Pick me up. Where am I supposed to go? How about this? I'm going to go from cat to dog. A dog plays a very prominent part of this movie. I will say... What an asshole. There is a perspective shot moment, in which it is not exactly clear who Jennifer Lawrence is pointing a gun at. And the physical discomfort in my theater at the prospect that she could be pointing it at this dog, I think taps into some of the power of this movie. There is a very feral place that this movie takes you to. There is a place that is kind of like not judgmental of Jennifer Lawrence's character, but is making you actively question everything about her.

1:16:34It's completely ugly. And it's like, I don't even know that she's losing her grip so much as her grip on like the person that she thinks she's supposed to be. And so it's like, it's this very fine line. It's like the whole movie's on that razor's edge of challenging you to stay there with it. And it's so good at keeping you there to the point that if you played Hey Mickey for me in this room right now, I might have a nervous breakdown. So it's like, there's just like a Pavlovian thing that happens with this movie that is just incredible. Some very good needle drops in this film. Yeah. Him showing up with the dog is really, really.

1:17:06I like this husband character. in the recent history of unhelpful husbands and absent husbands, which if I had legs, I'd kick you, also does very well. We never talked about

1:17:18Sean Fennessey:the reveal of who that husband is also in that movie, which is quite good. I don't want to ruin it for anybody who hasn't seen that movie. He's doing less. Like Jackson, in some ways, is absent and in some ways is trying and I don't think he's very good at it. No, I mean, he's never show up with a surprise dog. No. It's just like a free marriage advice from me to you. But, um, some of it is that he can't get in to help her either right and so he is presented not as you know an outdated father or someone who is like checked out but that there is like like a barrier between what's going on with her and what's going on with everyone else and though he would like to help he just like can't he has no idea how to access how to make her feel better or yeah he it's tricky right because the film also I don't know if you could call the character an unreliable narrator but we don't actually know what's happening so like in her mind she's imagining that maybe he's being unfaithful but we don't know if that's just the manifestation of her feelings of doubt and like low self-esteem or is it actually something that's really happening in the text of the story and the movie resists I think that like the neatness yeah you know because it's a time in your life when nothing is neat right every day you're like fuck like I don't know what I'm doing it also doesn't matter like if her decision making and actions are being driven by that fear then the fear is real right like that's the reality of her situation it's a very interesting accomplished movie I think it's also pretty smart about who your parents are and like what's going on with them yeah you know Nick Nolte and Sissy Spacek and them as like manifestations of their sons foibles and then what you're passing down to your children is something I think about all the time.

1:19:02Sean Fennessey:It is like a constant obsession of mine and me thinking about what my parents have given me and how I'm passing it on to another person. That's your Frankenstein coming out. Well, you know, I'm trying to not literalize it. I'm not trying to be the monster. What do you think you're passing to this podcast? Like, this is your baby too. That's true. Hopefully, thoughtful takes. Okay. A dollop of sincerity. Some stern authority at times. I mean, no doubt. A talking to. You'll tell a young Jennifer Lawrence, that's not what you should be doing. Discipline? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, this is a really interesting film.

1:19:36Sean Fennessey:So this film was picked up at the Cannes Film Festival for quite a large sum by Mubi. I saw the most recent trailer for this movie is pitched as from the studio that brought you The Substance, which feels like maybe not the best way to sell the movie because it's not entirely in the same register, but it does have some thematic cores that are similar. And they're releasing this movie wide. We're talking about it now in detail because it's going in like 2 ,800 theaters. that's pretty bold for what I would call basically an experimental film starring two of the biggest movie stars on earth and I don't know I don't think a movie like this is going to make a lot of money but that doesn't really matter not concerned with it ultimately I think the appeal of it being that wide is Jennifer Lawrence's giving not just one of the best performances of her career but of this year full stop a thousand percent this is an arresting display that I think will catch you and catch you off guard in so many ways And like, if you could say one, if I would say one negative thing about this movie, it's that it is kind of the one note, right?

1:20:36Like we're in this state of chaos perpetually, but everything that she's doing is so surprising and keeps you on the edge of your seat to the point where like, I don't even care if that's the one note. Like, just keep giving it to me over and over and I will live in this place because she's demanding that I pay full attention to every movement of her body. Yeah. I mean, this is a Lynn Ramsey film about postpartum depression shot in an impressionistic style. You know, it is true that the people who go to the movie theater because Katniss Everdeen and what's his name? This is like our fifth Twilight reference of this podcast.

1:21:08Edward, yeah. Edward Cullen? Is that number one on the big countdown? Is it going to be one of the Twilights? Were those this century? I guess they were. They certainly were, for sure.

1:21:17Sean Fennessey:You just spoiled Saturday's live show. How dare you? That'd be so awesome. It's a new moon, right? Twilight, new moon. I was going to say Breaking Dawn when Dakota Fanning shows up as one of the Volturi and then that baby, Renesmee. Renesmee. Yeah, never forget. One of the great achievements. Was Renesmee in Die My Love? I forget. Who played the baby? Could have been. I think it was Renesmee. Let's do best actress quickly since we were talking best supporting actress or supporting actor, I should say. So, Jesse Buckley is currently leading the Heisman race. Another mom. Another mom. Renata Rensvee in Sentimental Value.

1:21:54Sean Fennessey:Another story about your parents fucking you up. Yeah. Rose Byrne, if I had legs, I'd kick you. Yeah. Wonderful. Cynthia Erivo in Wicked for Good. She is, of course, mother. And Amanda Seyfried in The Testament of Emily, also mother. Plus, you've got Chase Infinity. Plus, you've got Emma Stone. Whatever. We won't get into spoilers. Okay. And I guess you've got Kate Hudson in Song Song Blue, a movie I haven't seen, and Sydney Sweeney and Christy. Everyone's trying for Kate Hudson. I think that'll be like a very nice Golden Globes red carpet. You know, she will be nominated for musical or comedy for sure.

1:22:29Maybe they'll let her perform. And I think that's fine.

1:22:34Sean Fennessey:You think Jennifer Lawrence is getting in for this movie? I don't. And I wish she were. No, I, I, I think, I think that Rose Byrne and Jesse Buckley are going to like lead the mom contingent. And I, I would pick this over Emma Stone in Begonia. but I don't think voters will. This is heartbreaking to hear. I think it's just a little small. It didn't have a great reception at Cannes, even though it was, you know, picked up. And I do think it's the best performance of her career, definitely since Mother. And I'm really excited once all the mommy movies come out for us to have, you know, moms versus dads.

1:23:13I mean, this episode was it a little bit. And it is, I just...

1:23:17Sean Fennessey:Who do you feel like is winning? I just think men need to get hobbies, you know, because I like... I have an extraordinary hobby. Isn't that a movie? I have one of the great hobbies. I'm just like, you guys actually, you can't create life. And so then you just, you know, you make aliens and like create psychological dramas for yourself. And it's like not that kind of thing. What's wrong with that? There are other things that are way more complicated than like, oh, did I do a good thing by making this monster? Will my dad love me now? Like grow up. You want 15 minutes in this movie of Robert Pattinson like playing pickleball?

1:23:47That would have solved it. Everything's fixed. How do we know that he's not? I mean, it's a fair play. He's got a lot of land.

1:23:52Sean Fennessey:He's off camera a lot. So funny because before I had a child, I did have a hobby. It was called drinking and I drank all the time and I don't really drink that much anymore. So, you know, I've replaced one hobby with life. That's beautiful. That's what it's all about. That's beautiful. Truly. And you're holding it together so well, you know? What do you mean? I feel that I gave a sterling performance today in the act of movie podcasting. Hey, Rob Mahoney, you're the man. Where can we find you? You can find me on The Ringer NBA Show every week. You can find me on The Prestige TV Podcast most weeks, including we got Pluribus coming up.

1:24:23There's a lot happening. I heard this is good. What is Pluribus? A show that, according to Joanna Robinson, is one of the best pilots she's ever seen that I still need to watch. Do you know the logline? I don't. It's created a mystery type show

1:24:34Sean Fennessey:I'm unconsciously trying to avoid. It's Vince Gilligan's new show starring Ray Seahorn from Better Call Saul. That's a better pitch. Yes. Okay. I'm going to watch the Emma Thompson detective series instead. Oh, that's, I mean, that also seems very worth your time. Okay. Well, thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. next week Sierra and I are going to the Badlands where we're going to be talking about Predator the Predator movies whatever's going on in England with him is Chris going to be on your back cut in half like an android that is how I think of us all the time thank you guys we'll see you soon

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