‘Highest 2 Lowest’ Is a N.Y. Movie State of Mind, With Spike Lee!

25:42So I understood it in that way. But yeah, I don't know. It's Denzel. I'm always happy with it. No, I thought it was appropriate for the character. It's a very interesting character. So, like I said, he reminded me a little bit of Elliot Reid. There's definitely like some Quincy Jones in there. There's some Russell Simmons in there. There's maybe a little Jay-Z in there. This is somebody who lives in a giant high-rise with multiple balconies on Front Street and Dumbo. It's a new kind of Brooklyn than the one that you might see in Do the Right Thing. And I like the idea of Spike returning to this space and portraying how the city has changed.

26:23he has a lot of access to that world to the strains of Oh What a Beautiful Morning from the opening song of Oklahoma which as soon as that kicked off and there's like these beautiful all drone shots but of quote unquote new Brooklyn and I was like oh Spike you still got it and also reckoning with like the passage of time and that's a big part of the movie and the movie and the way that King fits into this world is super cool because throughout the film you know, Spike is always showing these kind of signifiers for what is going on in their characters' lives or how their conflicts represent something that has happened in the past.

27:00But in David King's house, you know, it's like Kehinde Wiley paintings, Basquiat's, that famous portrait of Toni Morrison. You've got all of these photographs of great musicians, Miles Davis, James Brown, Stevie Wonder, Jimi Hendrix, like all of these kind of signposts of greatness. And King is at this place where he sold a record label that he started some decades ago, five years earlier. And he's kind of lost control of his own company. He stayed at the company during that time. And so before the events really kick off, we learned that he's trying to buy the company back. He's trying to buy back his creative integrity in addition to his legacy.

27:39And so he's at this vulnerable moment. And you have to get on board with this for the movie to make sense because in theory, someone like this would have$100 million or$300 million. Right. And he is in a much more compacted financial state. And because of that, when this kidnapping happens, he has to make a really hard choice once we realize that it's not his son who's taken, but someone else's son. And in this case, his best friend, longtime childhood friend, and also personal driver. Played by Jeffrey Wright. Played by Jeffrey Wright. To me, the movie is at its very best all the way up until the end when Denzel and Jeffrey Wright are talking to each other.

28:16Jeffrey Wright, I thought was like magical in this movie. it's such a different part than the last four or five parts that he's played and he's a guy who's had more personal struggles and is a faithful person and has like accepted this role inside of David King's elaborate life and has to be obsequious to him at all times but also clearly has like a lot of rage really complicated character who doesn't have a lot of dialogue but I thought was really cool and I like watching them together I love the scene where it's like Like these are two of the best. Yeah. And they're bouncing on each other really, really well.

28:52But there is something a little bit flat about the first 40 or so minutes of explicating the plot and what's happening. Right. And creating the world of King's family. I thought the two actors who played his wife and his son were just like not up to par with Denzel and Jeffrey Wright. It was confounding. Yeah. It's tough. And then also when the police and the investigators come in, there is a healthy skepticism for the police throughout the movie, but also it's just many bad actors. And it's very, very confusing. It feels very law and order. I mean, it's almost like this scene in Megalopolis when the, forgive me, the Saturday Night Live actress.

29:42Chloe Fineman. When Chloe Fineman just botches a line reading and it's just still in the movie. There are a few line readings in this one from people who are like, so we didn't have one other take. Yeah, yeah. So that is a little confusing. And especially like when next to Denzel and Jeffrey Wright. That's really the issue is if this were a lesser movie with lesser talents, you'd be like, well, this is just a mediocre movie. But you've got kind of mediocre movie stuff happening in the first hour alongside, you know, a couple of really, really gifted people. and the movie also it's attempting to do something kind of interesting that doesn't ultimately work which is it's attempting to be this like classical melodramatic 50s chamber piece where people are kind of storming in and out of rooms and you've got this Howard Drossen scores like really loud and distracting to me moving over the dialogue and I gotta be honest in the first 40 minutes I was like ooh gosh I'm not sure if this is really clicking in exactly the way that I wanted it to now Now, I'm not clear how intentional a lot of this is, but there's a sort of a break where the film moves from this chamber piece into more or less like an action detective movie.

30:48Yes, and they leave the apartment. It's going in and out of nice rooms for 40 minutes. I just want to note the apartment's number is A24. Yes, the one he visits. This is very funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, oh, I thought also his penthouse. Oh, it's his penthouse as well? I thought his penthouse was A24. Okay, well, the one that he knocks on the door of later in the film is also A24. I mean, I could be wrong, but I was pretty sure that it was both. Okay. Anyway. No, but it's, so they finally leave the house and you also get the dolly shot, like all at once. And then suddenly the move comes alive.

31:19And it is that, you know, that moment signaling to you like, okay, now we're actually, now this movie is going to be doing things. Yeah, there's a couple of the classic Spike double dolly shots. One with the cop, right, where the cop is sort of narrating what's about to transpire. But that is like, that is when they leave the apartment. Yes. And that's kind of when the movie takes off. Exactly. Because it's the, and it's setting up like the great set piece of the movie where they're going to try to do the money drop and exchange. But it's on the balcony and then things take flight. Yes. And it almost feels like Spike shaking you and being like, it's my time now.

31:55Like I've gotten through this stage of the movie. Now it's a little challenging and the reason it pops out to me as much is because you could make the case that the first half of High and Low is the best stuff because it's so, it's famed for its incredible blocking and the way that we see the inside of the apartment for the, you know, the king character in that film. It's so clever and gorgeous and it feels like he's in conversation with Alfred Hitchcock at that time who also was kind of a master of that kind of work. In this case, you know, Spike is incredible about being outside of New York.

32:29You know, the exteriors, the like, the emotionality, the music, the sounds of the city. That's something he's so talented at. And as soon as he goes outside and King goes on this journey to drop this bag,$17.5 million in Swiss francs, the movie just takes off. Like you see his interest in the people of New York. Right. The way that commuter travel works in the city. The way the Yankee fandom operates. Yeah. The way that the Puerto Rican Day Parade works. And using Eddie Palmieri as this like musical centerpiece of the movie after having listened to 40 minutes of the Drossen score. It's like such a great change up.

33:04Right. And the movie takes flight and it's basically like pretty much an hour of excitement and intrigue and it reminds me a lot of Inside Man. You know with Inside Man where you're just like I'm just locked in on this movie. So I ultimately came out really, really liking it quite a bit. I mean, I did as well. There is a second set piece in the second half that I don't totally want to spoil except, you know, A$AP Rocky is in this movie. Yeah. What did you think of Rocky? I thought he was great. He's really good. He's really good and he's also used really well. And they have like a rap battle of sorts that is like imagined and filmed very creatively.

33:43And I just like I was laughing. I was really fixated on it. They have a connection. So, yeah, it is 40 minutes of head scratching and then a very exciting New York movie. Yeah, I agree. Rocky was really, really great. And that scene is the best scene in the movie. Their confrontation. and I was impressed by Denzel's ability to sit. But yeah, but come on, it's Denzel. They are really going toe-to-toe with one another and it was very exciting and very fun to watch them together in that way. And Rocky, as opposed to some of the other actors in the movie, really holds his own opposite Denzel. I mean, he looks like he belongs.

34:22I just saw him in If I Had Legs, I'd kick you as well. And I was like, oh, he's a real actor. This is not a sideline for him at all. yeah I think this is quite good and quite different from what Spike and Denzel have done before it's definitely late period stuff right where it's like you gotta have a few familiar hallmark moves you've gotta make a movie that is a little bit more about the stage of life that they're in right now this is not Malcolm X you know what I mean their personal interests are very divergent and I think the movie resolves itself like pretty well. The final sequence, not the singing sequence, but the sequence before that is kind of fascinating because you can see that, you know, Spike has a little anxiety about gangster rap and he always has.

35:09He loves hip-hop. He's always loved hip-hop. Public Enemy prominently featured in his, you know, second feature and one of the most important needle drops in music history. But Young Felon, Rocky's character. Right, yeah. Kind of what Young Felon represents and someone who called themselves young felon is interesting and him looking at a generation that is you know way behind him 30 years 35 years younger than him um you can sense some of his concern the ways in which david and his son talk about what it would mean or not mean to pay the ransom and how that would come down on his son right and there's that critical conversation that they have where king is saying something to his son that is very funny where he's like dad's social media is all over me they're killing me because of this, because they say it's my fault that my friend got kidnapped when they wanted to kidnap me.

36:00And he's like, you got to ignore that. You got to just turn that off. And his son looks at him and he's like, I can't. And that's a very resonant concern. You know, that's something that obviously young people are just like, I can't not look at Instagram and not feel bad about my station in life. So it's cool that I think he was able to like, when some of that stuff into the story and what might've been in different hands, like a more rote examination of the generation gap. Yeah, I mean, it feels like a part of the story as opposed to, now I will insert several scenes where I'm like mad at the youth about their social media usage.

36:35So, you know, it does make sense. It is also, when you were watching this first 40 minutes, you are thinking, you know, they are natural thoughts that came to my head, at least. I was like, okay, come on. But like, we know this, that, and the other. Meaning in terms of how the choices are going to be made? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has to do what he ends up doing. There's no way he's going to be able to not pay the ransom. Yeah, that would be absurd. But the idea that like somebody also older who's like, I worked so hard for this wealth. I will not have someone take it away from me because they say I have to because it is my responsibility.

37:10Yeah. That's a very boomer concern. It is really boomer. That's a real thing that is working in our society right now. Even the the lack of exploration of all the other ways that this money could have been gotten, because I don't have 17.5 million dollars in in any currency. But your point about it's like he he's surrounded by Basquiat's and all of this art. He lives in this penthouse. You know, it's kind of like, where's our cash flow? Like, what's our what's our allocation here? What are we willing to give up and not give up? yep which is and but the movie doesn't even really it doesn't reckon with that which is extremely boomer that's and that but that all I don't know how purposeful that is you know because you can see all of the accoutrement in his house these are all production decisions made by Spike and his team yeah yeah yeah you know what I mean like I don't think that that was in the script that there were three Basquiat's sitting in David King's living room but there are Basquiat's sitting in Spike Lee's living room and in fact most of the art that's in the film are replicas of of art in his collection.

38:18So, yeah, it's like, it is a little bit of a portal into the mind of a 60 or 70 something very successful black American artist or executive or however you want to define them. And I'm grateful for that. You know, like he's not really made a movie that is about this, even though he's lived in this atmosphere for a while. So it's a lot of fun. It's pretty successful. there's a moment when he's riding in the Rolls Royce in the front seat alongside Jeffrey Wright when they've decided that they have to go find young felon the cops are not helping them and the movie's very funny about the fact that the cops are always there but not helping they're always present but they're incompetent or they're just rude but he's driving and James Brown's the payback hits and Denzel puts his head down and he just starts shadow box to himself and back and forth.

39:16It's really good. And I was like, this is movie magic. This is what we want. This is exactly. This is how we want to feel. How do you not, how do you not give yourself over to it? It's pretty special. Yeah. Why was this only in theaters for two weeks? I don't know. You know, it's available on Apple now. It's available on Apple TV plus where the majority of its audience will find it. Watch it. I think people should watch it. I think it's fun. I think it's a good time with some nice subterranean ideas. and to Apple, I'd like to say never again. Don't ever do this again. Please never, ever, ever put a Denzel Washington movie straight to streaming.

39:50I do not understand it and I do not appreciate it. Yeah. Okay. Caught Stealing. Yeah. Directed by Darren Aronofsky. This is his ninth feature film. There's Austin Beller right there. It's written by Charlie Houston. It's based on his novel. Okay. I heard from our pal David Shoemaker that he was stunned that this was even being adapted and that Houston was able to adapt it himself, which is fairly uncommon these days. Usually what happens is the novelist gets a first pass at the script and then they say, thanks for your efforts and then they get somebody to rewrite it. I don't know if that happened in this case, but Houston is solely credited.

40:23Movie stars Austin Butler, Regina King, Zoe Kravitz, Matt Smith, Liev Schreiber, Vincent D 'Onofrio, Benito Martinez-Ocasio, who you may know as Bad Bunny, Griffin Dunn, we'll come back to that, Carole Kane. It's a movie about a guy living in an apartment on the Lower East Side and one day his neighbor knocks on his door and asks him to take care of his cat. He's going on a trip for a couple of days. And this guy, a bartender named Hank and a former baseball prospect gets into some hijinks because of this cat care that he is forced to take. What'd you think of caught stealing? I found this movie implausible on several levels on a story level.

41:06and you know and that but but really more on a on a movie on a tonal movie level it wants to be outrageous and funny and I guess it's a little gross but I didn't think it was that funny I found it it it's Aronofsky doing a lot of action set pieces and parent especially driving cars and And they weren't bad, but they definitely felt like someone put on their like action hat and was like, OK, now I'm going to race a car. It just all felt a little it felt forced. Yeah. And I mean, that didn't mean that I had a bad time, but it did not. I didn't buy it, you know? Yeah, I think we're more or less in the same place.

41:55It's weird to see one of the defining disagreements of this show is. Is Aronofsky. is Aronofsky good? And yeah. And I think this was, he, I don't know if he's bad, but I just thought this was like kind of fake, you know? I agree. I felt like he was trying on somebody else's clothes. Yeah. In the way that like a lot of his movies just kind of feel a little, like I, I know you'd like to be this guy, but like you don't got it. I, I, I think he comes to the insane psychology of all of his protagonists. Very honestly. I don't think he's ever taken on a movie where I didn't think that he believed that this was the most important story to be told ever.

42:37From pie to Requiem for a Dream to the fountain to... Okay, but what about like the whale? I think he completely believed in that movie. And that movie has a lot in common with Mother and the extremity of expression, right? That's the thing that he is so interested in. It's like the pain and the inability to connect with the world around him. like that's true of all of his characters. Black Swan, this idea of delusion and disassociation in the wrestler, people who are outsiders, who feel lost, who feel fucked up. These are the people that he is usually making movies about. Right. And if you watch Pi, you can really see like the grounding for that.

43:21We're going to talk about Robert Altman next week. Robert Altman's style of filmmaking could not be more different from Darren Aronofsky's. But their interest in people is kind of similar. Robert Altman made a ballet movie. You know, Robert Altman made movies about a lot of artists. Like, there's something in common. Caught Stealing is like a movie about a hot bartender who got into some trouble. Well, right. Like, it's not, there's nothing else to it. Well, that's also a little bit the whale. And the further he's gone in his career, I think he's run out of scripts or people who legitimately have that separation from the world, that disillusionment.

43:59And so he's trying to graft whatever that feeling is onto situations that he doesn't have any sort of connection to. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, you know. That was your take on mother. Sure. And the whale. And a little bit this. I didn't like the whale, but it felt at least consistent to me with what he was going after. This to me is like, this is an Austin Butler movie. I mean, he's one of the most handsome dudes in the world. Yeah, exactly. There's not a lot that he's alienated because of his injury. The red carpet photos of Aronofsky with his cast are just absolutely priceless. I haven't seen them.

44:28Was he wearing a scarf? Yeah, sometimes. But it's, I have been, there have been so many photo calls for this. And also it worked because many of my friends were like, so why is Zoe Kravitz dating Harry Styles? I thought she was dating Austin Butler. And I was like, no, no, no. They were just promoting a movie. And I don't think it worked to get you to see the movie, but at least. So it worked. But Aronofsky just like trying to hang with all of these beautiful hot people. I feel a little for, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to age. These are the travails. As I demonstrate every day. Yeah. Let's have an Austin Butler conversation.

45:04Okay. I believe that he's good. Right. Is he miscast in this? Is he a leading man? Oh, rude. I'm just asking. No, I think that he's... I think he's a talented actor. I think he's Brad Pitt. That's a high compliment. Sure, but we often say that Brad Pitt is a character actor in a leading man's body that our favorite performances are either when he's on the side being goofy or, you know, the serendipity of like, you know, your one perfect shining money ball moment. But otherwise, he's better when he's not, like meet Joe Black is not the pinnacle of Brad Pitt's career. It's not. So I think... News flash.

45:49Yeah. Meet Joe Blackheads. Sorry. Amanda has decreed. No, I know what you're saying. To me, it's more like is like A River Runs Through It is a movie that captures... He could absolutely nail A River Runs Through It. Well, that's what I was going to say. That's a movie where he is the co-lead of that movie. Right. He does not have a lot of dialogue. He has a storm inside of him. Right. He's the more complex brother opposite Craig Sheffer. And that quietness helped him a lot. Right. Butler's asked to do a lot here. He has to carry a lot. And the movie, I think, does him a little bit of a disservice with a choice that it makes in the story about halfway through, which I understand why the choice is made.

46:35And I think it seems like it's true to the novel. Right. And it sets up the thing. Yes, it creates the action, but it kind of ruins the movie. And so if you don't want to know what this is, don't listen anymore. But spoiler alert, about 45 minutes, an hour into the movie, Zoe Kravitz's character, who is his girlfriend, is murdered. he discovers her dead body. You know, Zoe Kravitz, obviously a very special living human, but is the vibe, the heartbeat of the film. And their relationship is like the only nice thing in the movie. Everything else sucks. It's just like grimy and gross and angry and bleeding.

47:16I mean, even that, she has to like super glue his cut together. She does. But she's a healer. She's a paramedic, which is really funny. Yeah, okay, she's a paramedic wearing orange lingerie to, you know, resuscitate someone. God bless her. You know, life contains multitudes. Yes. You're saying you have never done that before? But she's killed in the movie, and then the movie becomes a chase movie where he's got to find the money and escape and elude his captors. But the movie just kind of died for me when she left the movie. Right. I mean, I wonder if that's a little bit of, like, who's responding to who.

47:52I know what you're saying about Austin Butler I am who I am I know what you're saying about Austin Butler and the Brad Pitt thing really looms large for me because this movie kind of wants to be a Guy Ritchie movie or is or is signaling that it's confused, right? but you can't watch it without thinking of Guy Ritchie movies I think the trailer kind of forced that on us just because there was so much Matt Smith doing like, oi, oi, oi right, and that's because I thought he was good in this movie you always think he's good Well, you know, but it's also a little bit of like let people be what they're good at.

48:26And so watching Austin Butler try to be like a corn fed, you know, baseball loving, just like normie in the midst of all of this is a little confusing. Like you you want Brad Pitt and Snatchy, like just let let him be weird like everybody else. Yeah, he's definitely not weird enough. I think it's just because the character is not written to be all that weird. Griffin Dunn's role in this movie is obviously a callback to After Hours. and that's another movie that I think this movie wants to kind of be well sure it wants to be a lot of things it wants to be a late night 90s New York I want to be Christy Turlington you know it's like do you yeah she seems pretty would you want to spend all that time with Edward Burns you don't think Zach looks like Edward Burns I think that they look a lot alike so no comment on that oh you don't right he doesn't like it but I think Edward Burns is handsome and the pride of Long Island Edward Burns yeah he made it out also I would love to look like Christy Turlington she's doing important work work, philanthropic work.

49:22Is that true? Yeah, she has like a whole foundation for moms and childbirth across the world. That's great. Yeah. I like seeing Griffin Dunn. I wish this was more like After Hours. Yeah. It's not really there. I wish it were more like a Guy Ritchie movie. I wish it were more like a... Did you think... Talk to me about the cultural stereotyping of the movie, right? You've got Bad Bunny as a seemingly tough but maybe not so tough Latino club owner. you've got Regina King as a tough talking maybe corrupt New York City cop some shades of Southland cop show that she was on some years ago you've got Matt Smith as a Mohawk British faux punk right you've got Vincent D 'Onofrio and Leib Schreiber as two Hasidic Jews who are up to no good in Los Angeles or in New York rather and you've got who am I forgetting um any other cultural stereotypes that are being you've got Action Bronson doing absurd stuff in the bar.

50:22Right. Not really a stereotype, more of a... Oh, the Russian mobsters? Oh, of course. Yeah. Yes. Who were also funny. The Baldies, who are Ukrainian, right? Were they Ukrainian? Well, there's some discussion about whether they are, because they're near little Ukraine, but then Regina King is like, no, they're part of the... And then she's like, no, they're in the mob. And then Austin Butler's like, yeah, but they weren't speaking Italian. And she was like, no, Russian mob. I mean, which is... Listen, this is the level that we're working on. Is this meant to be like funny? Like a metatextual comment on these kinds of characters?

50:57I think it's like supposed to be winking, but again, it doesn't really come across. Right. Yeah. And obviously there is legitimately, you know, the Dennis Farina, Benicio Del Toro characters in Snatch who are doing the Pacific criminals thing is very funny, very memorable. It's some of the best stuff in that movie. So I'm like, is this a wink at that? What is that meant to be? Right. I think it's trying to do a lot of things, but like I said, none of it really comes together. How do you feel about the Mets' energy in this? Well, let's talk about it. So there's a scene that takes place at Shea Stadium, which is, of course, no longer where the New York Mets play.

51:32It is in part digitally recreated. Did they blow it up? They didn't blow it up. What did they do with it, Jack? I think they knocked it down. Did they knock it down fully? I'm pretty sure. I mean, Citi Field is there now. It's not in the same spot. Oh, it's not? They didn't build it on the same land. It's on a different piece of land than Flushing. I said that this is set in like 1998. Yes. Well, we can say it now. And so... Well, there's a lot of baseball in the movie, in part because Butler's character is a baseball prospect who gets into a car accident when he's drinking and driving, kills his friend and badly injures his leg.

52:01And so he's not able to continue playing. But he remains a huge baseball fan and is following the Giants. That's his team. Right, right, right. The Giants and the Mets are in a playoff race. And so there's a lot of checking in. Christopher Mad Dog Russo famously makes an appearance via radio in this film, a voice I grew up listening to. in 1998 I was no doubt listening to Mad Dog talk about baseball there's a scene that takes place at this reimagined Shea we get on the subway the 7 line headed to Shea it was okay it was nice to see headed to or headed from? on the way back yeah they're on the way back how does he get there in the first place does he drive there?

52:37or maybe they just drive to Flushing Meadow and then he walks because that's where they're going to meet the other people and then there's I don't really know yeah I mean look I've definitely spent a lot of time at Shea in the 90s and you know it was a shithole. It was our shithole. Yeah. But it was a shithole. It was not a nice stadium. There's a reason they don't play there anymore. So it's weird to be like ah the good old days. It's awesome. The Mets sucked and we hoped they would be good you know but they were certainly the little brothers of the New York Yankees who were about to enter the greatest glory period in the last 25 years in baseball.

53:09And I guess he's a Giants fan because this is like Barry Bonds era. I think he grew up in San Francisco is the impression that I got. Oh no. His mom is in San Francisco. No, I mean, I know that. But yes, it was Bonds era. You could put them anywhere. He had Bonds in the film, right? Yeah. He has a bat in the film. At the very end. Yeah. Right. The ending also sucks. Sorry. Yeah. I didn't like that either. That's so stupid. It's weird. There's plenty of stuff in this movie that I kind of enjoyed. I didn't have, I wasn't bored. I'm not mad. Yeah, I'm not mad. Don't put in the paper that Amanda is mad.

53:41But I really do want us to get a prop that's just a newspaper that says I'm mad, that I can hold up from time to time. Okay. But. You should call the Sulzberger family. I was a little bored. Mm-hmm. But that's okay. But I was not mad. I was just kind of like, this isn't really gelling, but I like enough of these people that I'll keep watching. Yeah, I think I'm more or less with you. Also, I was in a movie theater, so I didn't fall asleep and I was incredibly jet lagged. So. Good sign. Is it? I mean, it's not bad. This movie got dumped. Yeah. Why did it open on August 29th? There's famous people in it.

54:17It's propulsive enough. I think for a general audience, it will be more or less satisfying. You know, it's just a crime thriller. It's a New York crime thriller. Yeah. It's really no more, no less. With the exception of the occasional, the gore that Aronofsky is usually into. And it was quite gross. It is. There's a lot of blood and there's a lot of... There's more poop than I needed. Sure. I'm dealing with enough in my day-to-day life. Understandable. We get the, even the cockroach in the opening title sequence. I don't, bugs are fine. Okay. But it's kind of a strange film. I mean, I noted here Aronofsky, every single movie that he's directed has either been recognized by BAFTA, the Golden Globes, the Oscars, or won a prize at Sundance.

55:00He's had a pretty hallowed career. He's got some films that I think are masterpieces. He's got films that I think are failures but are really interesting. I know you're a lot less connected to him and find him a little annoying at times, but he's very, very talented and is a cinema artist. You'd say he's in a class of guys from the 90s that defined a period of time at the movies. Absolutely. And Black Swan obviously was a massive hit too so he's got that under his belt as well. And this movie is very quickly going to be a movie that never happened. It's not going to be part of some legacy and I don't mean to demean him but you just know.

55:37It's like Sony kind of dumped this movie and made$9 million and then it's going to be on Netflix. Everybody's going to watch it on Netflix because of the output deal that Sony has with Netflix. And maybe that's where its life will be. It'll be just another studio programmer that people won't even realize it's Aronofsky. But I'm just kind of, I'm fascinated by the decision to even make the movie. The movie does feel like he thought he was doing something else or he thought that he had it more nailed down than he did. And that doesn't mean that it's bad, which is not very good.

56:12Oh man! Zu.

56:34Do you think there's something telling about the fact that this is a Mets movie and Highest to Lowest is a Yankees movie? You tell me. How are the Mets doing right now? dare I ask? It's late. It's early September. It's okay. Things are getting tense. It's okay. Okay. I have not really checked in. So what's up with baseball right now? The Phillies are almost certainly going to win the division. Okay. That's great news for my house. The Cubs and Brewers are firmly in the playoffs. Oh. Alright. Congratulations to the Chicago Cubs. The Dodgers and the Padres are also almost certainly in the playoffs.

57:08Okay. Which means that the Mets are right now in the third wildcard spot. How many wildcard spots are there? Three. Oh, okay. They're four games ahead of the San Francisco Giants. Austin Butler's favorite team. And they should make the playoffs with 20 some odd games to go. If they don't it's going to be a tough September on the big picture. Okay. Just want you to know. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm used to that at this point. That's why I was temp checking it. Well, but last year was a total change of pace. Okay. Last year was a wonderful time. This time of year. They actually struggled in September last year and then turned it on at the end of the season.

57:42They didn't. You got, because I remember I was about to give birth and you guys were just like fucking melting down every single day. And I was like, I have some other issues to deal with right now. I Jack Sanders was not. Yeah. You held it together and got me coffee cake, which was really nice. So, Jack, you're number one forever. And then October, I mean, I remember Cy was like five days old, and we were watching playoff games, and those were excruciating. A glorious moment. From the perspective of a Phillies fan. It was a great time. Which I am for about two weeks every year. It was a great time.

58:17I mean, the Phillies, I'm not sure that they have the juice either this year. No, I don't think so. I mean, they need to, have they learned how to hit the ball? Because... When they hit, they don't pitch. And when they pitch, they don't hit. But that's true of the Mets as well. It's like two good, but not great franchises right now. Braves are done? Braves are done. Unless they're playing the Mets, in which case they are annihilating the Mets. Yeah. Okay. It's been a complicated season. Okay. The thing that has happened that you actually may hear Jack and I nattering about both on and off mic is that they've now called up two of their three big pitching prospects.

58:48And the first of which has been probably the most important new person to come into my life in a long time. What's his name? Nolan McClain. Nolan! His nickname, which I don't think is going to stick, is Cowboy Otani. Oh. Because he was formerly a two-way player. He was a hitter and a pitcher, and now he has just put his time into pitching. Okay. He's nasty. Okay. He's really excited. And he shut down the Phillies a week and a half ago. And then the other kid is Jonah Tong. Jonatang is a 22-year-old boy wonder. A wee little man with an unusual... Is that younger than you, Jack? That is younger than me.

59:26How does it feel? It feels completely fine. Okay. Life comes for you fast. I know. I think you'll enjoy Jonatang. A very happy kid. Oh, that's nice. With a very... The kids are saying he's whimsical. Whimsical. He embraces whimsy. That's cute. That's nice. What's his walk-up song? I don't know. Actually, there was some noise about this on Twitter, but I can't remember exactly what it was. And you guys call yourself Mets fans. I couldn't watch his star because I was at the Telluride Film Festival. So I was literally just watching clips sitting beside Chris Rosen, fellow Mets fan, just being, I think, did Bruce Springsteen end?

59:57And we were like, what happened with the Mets? I should tell you how I feel about the Springsteen movie. Jets? Bad? We'll see. Sunday? Yeah. Showdown with former quarterback Aaron Rodgers in the Pittsburgh Steelers. Oh, how exciting. Week one, yeah. Okay. I have one more sports question for you. So what's going on with Kawhi Leonard?

1:00:18I saw a headline I didn't click through anything this is like explain Fortnite to me but instead quiet let her go the you know acquaintance of ours friend Pablo Torre reported on his podcast that a sort of shell company slash scam company that is apparently organized around tree maintenance okay they've they've framed themselves as pro environment. Basically making your carbon emissions negative. Yes. So they, but the reason why they're so sketchy is they broker the deals of planting trees. So the average tree cost to plant is like 10 to 20 cents. Okay. They charge all these high level people a dollar and then broker that deal.

1:01:04Okay. This company, which is called Aspiration, was sponsored by the Los Angeles Clippers, and this company also had an individual marketing and sponsorship deal with Kawhi Leonard. Okay. The suspicion is that the money that the Clippers gave to Aspiration was then laundered directly to Kawhi Leonard to account for additional payment on top of his salary. Now, you might think, oh, how much? $50 ,000? Maybe a million? No,$28 million. And now maybe reportedly possibly$48 million. $48 million through a tree company? So again, this is all alleged. They have also now gone bankrupt, by the way. And the reason this came out is because the company went bankrupt.

1:01:44And so the documents were made public. And the relationship to a subsidiary that Kawhi Leonard's team built showed this relationship. So this was not a... It was also a no-show job. So the sponsorship, it's not like he was in a commercial for this company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn't do anything. Wow. So it looks bad. That does look bad. It looks bad. It's also, when you get stories like this, I am often disappointed. But like, as you said, it's like for$50 ,000, someone, you know, gave their life away. $48 billion, that's I raise. So, and this, they would do it because of like salary cap or whatever?

1:02:17Yeah. Okay. It would be a way to. Good job. That's a great story. Thank you for explaining that to me. You know, there's a suggestion. Look, this has been true for many years, but there's a suggestion that there are a lot of organizations in professional sports that do similar things. This is just at a very high level. and because there's a Zach Lowe on his show talked about this really interestingly actually that Kawhi Leonard's team in particular has been very open about their demands around things like this in previous negotiations for contracts. Okay. So like when they when he was a free agent in 2019 he was his representation who was his uncle was ultimately saying like we need this this and this.

1:02:53Okay. And none of that stuff was considered standard or to the bylaws of the NBA. Okay. Listeners of the show if you're here for the movies I'm very sorry. Yeah. Listen to the Zach Lowe show you can check out Pablo's episode where he explains it. I'm sure he's going to continue to report on it. But that was very helpful. Thank you for explaining that. You're welcome. Yeah. It's not just movies that I follow closely. No, I know that. But, you know, I was I was on vacation. I stopped opening a couple of newsletters that I regularly read and I feel really free. Like what? Feed Me. What's that? OK, we don't have time for that.

1:03:25Do you know about Feed Me? OK. Oh, OK, boys. It's like the it's written by Emily Sundberg. It's. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know her. like the New York 30 something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You stopped reading it as a declaration of discontent. No, I just didn't open on vacation because I was like on vacation. And then I was like, oh, maybe like I don't care what's going on, like where bankers in New York are eating, you know, and I don't. And so I feel free. But then it does mean that I miss things. So thank you for catching me up. That's like how I feel about television. Oh, yeah. I have no idea what's going on there.

1:03:55I'm like, I don't know. I haven't seen it. I'm not sure. Couldn't tell you. I did start season three of The Gilded Age on the way on my eternal fight back. And it was really good. But yeah, I have to watch movies. So good luck to them. Movies are back. What movies are we talking about this month? One Battle After Another? Yeah. Are we going to see that? When are we going to see it? Yeah, I think I'm going to see it on Monday. What the fuck? Are they... I need to see it too. Okay, well, can you... Welcome back to the United States. Put me on the email. Okay. I'll put you on the email. Okay, thank you.

1:04:26One Battle After Another. That's one. What else is coming out? The Strangers Chapter 2? Sure. Him? Yeah. Down Abbey, the grand finale. We're going. We got tickets. Michelle Dockery expecting a baby. Did you see? By me? Well, that would be nice for you, I guess. Enough? Not for my family. That wouldn't be good. No, she's wonderful. What else is coming out? Big Bold Beautiful Journey. Big Bold Beautiful Journey. Oh, yeah. Have you seen that yet? I have not seen it. I saw the trailer yesterday before Caught Stealing. I mean, I just... You were surprised. No, I mean, I've seen the trailer. I just, once again, what's going on there?

1:05:01I guess we'll find out. I don't know. Spinal Tap 2? Sure. I just saw The Conjuring Last Rites yesterday. Okay. It was okay. We'll do it. We'll re-weapons. Yes. We'll re-weapons with CR in the middle of the month. That's actually going to VOD on Tuesday. I know. I'm excited. So you'll be able to see it then. Not the same at home, I would imagine. You know, we all, we have to cope in our own way. and me watching it at home is how I'll feel safe. There's one other movie that I need to check out. What is it? I mentioned The Roses. Oh, The Long Walk. The Stephen King adaptation with Cooper Hoffman and David Johnson.

1:05:42That's kind of the month. Not the... October is jam-packed. Yes. Because it is the combination of award season. That first week of October is always a very big box office moment where you've got like the new Tron movie and Roofman and a bunch of other stuff opening. and then November Wicked for Good we'll do six straight episodes on Wicked for Good you excited? yeah I'm excited for you to perform all the songs standing on top of this table thanks to my daughter I'll have them committed to memory no doubt we went to go see a movie can't even remember what movie it was maybe it was The Bad Guys 2 at some point in August and have you noticed I don't know if you take knocks to the movies even but at the new movies now they're just showing like adult movie trailers.

1:06:28No, we're not in this phase. Ahead of kids movies, like animated movies. Okay. So like the One Battle trailer played before it. You know, Freakier Friday played before it, which was interesting. Oh, because Alice. Because there was a like, what's that curiosity. Right. And having seen the movie, I don't know that she totally would have gotten some of the humor. Yeah. Didn't hate Freakier Friday, by the way. Okay. And then what was the other? And then they showed Wicked for Good and she was like, I will turn my life over to this. She was like, this is probably the most important film ever made.

1:06:59Okay. That's exciting. I have that coming for me. We got to get Nutcracker tickets, but that's separate. I was just, you know, I'm already thinking to the holiday. And I don't really want to go see Wicked for Good with Alice, but I do want to, it's not an Alice thing, that's a movie thing, but I do want to see The Nutcracker with her. Okay. We'll make that happen for sure. Okay, we're back. Yeah. Happy to be back. Let's now go to my conversation. with the great Spike Lee.

1:07:32It is the great honor of this show to have the great Spike Lee on the pod for the first time. Spike, I want to start by asking you. Why is it the first time? Man, I asked for Defy Bloods and you know what they told me? Spike is not available. All right, well, you got to take my direct thing so you're going to have to go to nobody else from now on. Okay, I'll hit you up direct next time. It's important that you're here. I love the new film. I want to ask you about the 87 essential films list you made for your NYU students. So only a handful of filmmakers on that list got more than two films. Kurosawa got three movies.

1:08:10Do you remember the first time you saw a Kurosawa movie? Yes. When I was a mere kid, an older friend of mine of the family would take me to see samurai films. At that time, I must be 89 years old. you know just love the swords cutting heads off but that was about it it wasn't until i was in graduate film school in way of graduate film school where ang lee ernest dicker and being the deep of my films we're all the same class jen dramas was two years ahead of us that i saw rasha moan and rasha moan gave me i use basis of Rashomon for the structure of she's got to have my first feature film so I got to meet Mr.

1:08:56Kurosawa on a great moment of my cinematic life and he knew I was and you see some of my films that was great Denzel Washington this script was sent around for many many years and Denzel got it and he called me up and said Spike I got a script, I'm going to send it to FedEx. And when he hung up the phone, I knew I was going to do it before I read the script. Now, I did not know that Inside Man, 18, 90 years had lapsed between that, them, and this film. But it was great to bring back the band, the dynamic duo, D and Lee. and here's the thing I think is very important I've stressed this more than once on this tour that I approached this like a great jazz musician who takes American Standard for example Roger Homestead's The Sound of Music, my favorite thing is look what John Coltrane did with that that was my approach we're going to put the jazz reincarnation not reincarnation, but just a different version of a standard.

1:10:20We were not, there's not a remake. It's a reinterpretation. And that was the way that I went through this whole film. You know, we know what Kurosawa did, one of the great cinematic giants. but people forget Orion and Ed McBain wrote the novel first called King's Ransom but we would never go off the rails and not disrespect the original film we want to be different that's why it's not highest and lowest it's highest two lowest and the two is not T-W no T-O is the number two that's a shout out to my brother Prince who always uses numbers you know sometimes instead of writing the words up. One of the things that differentiates your film from the Kurosawa movie is that David King is a public person.

1:11:14He's a well-known figure as opposed to the Mifune character. I feel like you - Known for the best years in the business. That's right. Not just the best shoes in the business, like in Mifune, but you must've encountered a lot of David Kings in your life. Successful, entrepreneurial, creative, but kind of consumed by the business. Like, what do you what do you think motivates people like that? I don't want to have any blanket statements. On my first time appearing on your show. OK, OK, OK. But what I see what I've over the years, you know. I've been around the block a couple of times. Is that I can tell who's doing it for the love.

1:11:59And who is strictly for doing it for the money. when you're at that level you're not hiding you're not hiding that it comes out what you're about and I think one of the most important lines in this film my brother which is on the poster too the one sheet all money and good money so there the biggest thing I got from the Curacao film is about morality what is good what is bad and with Denzel's performance, and not forgetting Mr. Tishimafoon and his depiction role directed by Kurosawa. When the thing comes down and Denzel has to make this choice, he is such a great actor. Everybody in the theater or at home coming up will put themselves in that exact place, the exact place Denzel's playing.

1:12:56And what would they do? What would they do? And that makes the whole movie like, because you're engaged in the theater. You're engaging the people in the audience, engaging people who are going to see it later on, you know, Apple Plus. And when you have people watching, I mean, it could be a show, TV show, movie, whatever, concert. When they're engaged, you've won. I love what you and Matthew Libatique do together. I feel like... Daddy! I always say, Daddy! He's on the set I just call out his name He is a genius I feel like Chirac is one of your best looking movies Especially in the last 20 years A beautiful movie Since you bring up Chirac They hate that movie in Chicago I know, but it's an awesome looking movie They hate that movie in Chicago And also, even before that I'm a Nick fan, you know, the Bulls So I've never got love in Chicago, period Yeah, we share that too even though Michael Jordan was born in Brooklyn what did did you and Maddie watch anything together before we always watch films before we always watch films to see what are things that similar to the film we're doing and what new things we might look at so Maddie and I love cinema we love each other and we're dedicated to this art form we're in.

1:14:33And so there's several references in this film. We reference the French Connection. On the train. Yeah, on the train. The defied ones, Tony Curtis and the great, late, great Sidney Poitier. Gene Hackman from French Connection. So we're cinephiles. and here's the thing I like to say and I'm a 10th professor of film at NYU the graded film school I've been teaching it 30 years Ang Lee was my classmate Ernest Dickens shot all my early films my classmate Jim John was two years ahead of us at NYU I say to my students the first day of the year that if you're able to make a living doing what you love you've won majority of people on this God's earth go to their grave haven't hated a job they hated haven't had a job they hated and they don't want their children to starve their heads and clothes and back and food on the table but when you make a living and do what you love more than anything else you won and that's the approach that Maddie and I and not just Maddie but the people that work with me in front of and behind the camera.

1:15:55You know, Spike Lee joins our teams. People work for me for many, many, many, many years. It's not just like I want to hook them up because they're great at what they do. And you know I'm a sports freak. And so as many times the writer, producer, director of my films, I'm like a general manager in sports. We see many teams where I just had a great player and film a great story, but people surrounded him. He's out there alone. And that doesn't turn out well many times. You have to have a team. And with a team, come togetherness. And with a team called love. you watch any of these championship teams when they win they talk about how they love each one of their teammates and the staff even the ball boys just wiping up the court spit on the court whatever it's love and I know it might sound corny but I don't give a you know what it's love because it's too hard to do not loving what you're doing you know you don't want it when you love what you do it's not a job so even though we might have a 6 we have 6am calls people get their 5, 530 because they're loving what they do and they're gonna have fun and we're gonna work together one of the things that's so interesting about that though in the movie and I felt this watching it a little bit is that there might be a little bit of you in David King 2 and what is that we both have beautiful wives I mean, maybe a few other things as well.

1:17:49But the movie is really smart about Stan culture and about what we call parasocial relationships now. You know, people who are out there who think that they know you and who want to be like you, emulate you, maybe even want to be you. I was wondering how much that interested you in this story and the way that this story has been updated. Well, it's not... I'm glad you said the word updated, but this thing, you know, where... You're talking about, it's not new, but with technology, it's like, I mean, stalkers. So I read an article the other day about professional athletes are being stalked. No, I mean, it's this, this, we live in a crazy, insane world now.

1:18:33I'm not even leaving out Trump. Even without him. Shit, I'm sorry, without him. This world is bananas. and I know I might sound like old buddy when it was it was so calm and maybe very RFD stuff was out of the back then too so if you watch this film everybody hopefully in theaters or not I mean I want you to see it in Apple Plus but hopefully see it in the theaters first that in a lot of ways this film is a reflection of the world we live today. The world we live today. And there's some scenes I feel very strong about when Denzel is talking about the music. AI is going to write music? These machines don't have any heart, any soul.

1:19:34And that's the principle that Denzel character is. He's a purist. and his red company is failing because these young heads don't want to hear what he's doing. You know? And he's a purist. We say it in the film. He has the best ears in the business. And we even have a reference to Quinn who said he's like the heir apparent to Quincy Jones who died while we were, died later while making the film and not even talk about the great Eddie Palmieri, you know, who passed away a couple days before we had the premiere in New York. So you always have this conflict. This is not new about the old heads and the youth.

1:20:24Which really, you could say, came to head during the Vietnam War. You know, these beatniks and rebels have long hair and they don't take it or whatever you want to say. And it's It's a great film by Peter Weir called The Day of Living Dangerously, The Year of Living Dangerously. And Mel Gibson, I'm not talking about his politics, but a great actor. Anyway, that's what I'm calling this year, 2025, The Year of Living Dangerously. Because things going off the rails. and Gaza and this, I mean, it's just, that's not the only thing, but it's crazy now. It is absolute crazy. Well, it's interesting that you point out this kind of conflict between the youth and an older generation.

1:21:19For me, the best scene in the film is this showdown between Denzel and Rocky in the studio. You know what that is? That's high noon. and Denton's Gary Cooper. I don't know who the other guy was. That's the man in the black hat. You know, that's Rocky. So tell me about kind of conceiving that scene, especially visually, because, you know, on paper that could go badly and it's so brilliant. Well, it's from the original, which is great. But the fact that we're not talking about shoes and this music, it was not scripted my brother to turn to a rap battle I look at a script and Denzel start dropping bars from Nas Illmatic and then to A$AP's credit he rolled with it in fact he has a line during that showdown he says what is a rap battle laughing laughing And that's an example how that was not scripted.

1:22:35But here's the thing, though. You have to have a thing on set that stops where people feel free. Like, if you're pounding, you missed this line, you missed the line, what are you doing? What are you doing? I don't direct like that. I want to give people, not everybody, because everybody can improv. You've got to know that from the jump. You got to know who could do what. Same thing as a baseball man in football goes about. You got to know what your players can do. You're not going to ask this guy to kick an 80-yard field goal. You know, he doesn't hit from 40. Outside 40 can't do it. So you have to know what a people's, this is what I tell my class, what are the individuals who are in front of the camp, what are their strengths and weaknesses?

1:23:26and when Denzel my brother and Rocky my brother they were just that stuff was all scribble. It works so well. It made another thing is that when you lift up a scene at the same time you lift up the whole film and this is the end of the film this is like the finale that goes before the finale. When you're on set and that's happening and they're riffing on the script and they're building out this battle and you guys are all working on it together do you know that day that you're like we've just lifted this movie or is that something that you don't see until you're looking at it in post? What's your feel for that?

1:24:08Also I can only speak for myself but what I'm trying to do is not bust out yelling and screaming and as soon as I say cussing

1:24:20and I run it around the room So I know I'm Seen crazy If you ever see me In a Knick game Court side I'm like that But also I gotta wait To a call cut

1:24:36Let me ask you About Denzel You know You've made a number Of films together now And you just talked Fifth film together Fifth film Is the Denzel Who's in Moe Better Blues Can he Do the things That the highest To lowest Denzel can do? Have you seen him add tools to his toolkit over time? Yes, here's the thing. I normally keep repeating that phrase, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Great, whether you're great musicians, great artists, what makes you great is that you get greater. You just don't show up great. I mean, but you gotta, it's building over, your greatness is built over years. Now some people, you know, that might be great, and then they hit a plateau other than light.

1:25:24But the goal, and you really have to have God-given gifts and determination. And more important, maybe, put the work in. You cannot shuck and jive. I mean, you can't fake it. You can't fake the funk. What does that mean, though, for Denzel? What does it mean for him to be putting the work in? He's a purist. He's a hard worker. he's deeply believed in God a greater being and in a lot of ways he might not agree with this but a lot of ways I think the way he approaches his craft is religious I'm going to tell him that one day I just thought of that but the way he carries himself it's religion and doesn't want to cheat his God, his maker.

1:26:22I feel he's the greatest living actor today. Now, my brother Marty is going to say his brother Scorsese and the greatest he lived. Met was alive. He would say Al Pacino and Francis would say Brando. They're all great, but I didn't work any of those guys. I only go by my five films with my brother Benzo Washington every time we work together he does stuff that just amazes me I mean his his range I mean it gets kind of tiresome just describing greatness for me I know it's too easy, too cheap great but I'm running out of syllables one other thing that I think really stood out to me about this one is that he and Jeffrey Wright I just bought it let me hear it well I just really really bought it you know what I mean you know when you're watching a movie and you're like these are real people they have this relationship is deep and long and there's something between them that is not said but that we understand and it had me wondering in a situation like that and I don't think Jeffrey and Denzel had worked together before I put together on that Jonathan Demifilm I forgot the name of it oh you're right the Manchurian Candidate Yes, that was the first only time.

1:27:43Are they rehearsing, though? Are they building their bond on that? We all rehearse, but it wasn't like rehearsal for a play. But great actors, you know, on that level, it's a different thing, and they feed off each other. And one of my favorite scenes in the film, hoping not giving too much away, when Jeffrey Wright's character knocks on his door and literally gets on his knees and begs him to pay the$17.5 million ransom. And that scene, you feel the hurt. But also the embarrassment he has of asking for that amount of money, knowing that Denzel's character says, man, you can't even count the$17.5 million.

1:28:36dollars. It was when you get two actors like that and they're in a room just them just roll the camera. They're pretty special together. I'd get the hell out the way and let them do their thing. You are renowned for using music in films. This is a really interesting cocktail in this one. You mentioned Eddie Palmieri who plays a big part in a centerpiece sequence but then you've got Howard Drossen's score. You've got this Scottish trio. You've got Rocky's music. you've got Ayanna Lee. Is that something that is, is something you know before production begins that these are the pieces that you want?

1:29:12Is it something that develops as you're making the movie? Is it in post like what this, what that stew is going to be? Well, it's a combination of the both. And, and my father, Billy, great musician, composer. I can't play a lick, any instrument, but I got my father's ears. And so that's always been one of my strong points. Music. Like, how far did the scores that she's going to have at school days, do the right thing, and Moe, but the blues. Then it was Terrence Bledger, and now it was Howard Drossan. And I just know, I know music, how it works, how it doesn't work. It's a tool, a semi-toolbox, along with cinematography, the writing, the script, production design, costume design, props.

1:29:56That's another thing. Dental is a master using props. the scene where he picks up the grenade and says I'm going to blow this MMO that's not in the script the scene where he's getting this guy where he picks up the radio mic keeps putting it in his mouth that's not in the script he uses everything that said props to make his performance come alive are you a sports guy? yes major you know that term five tools? of course well a 10 tool ball player 11 if you put a grenade in his hand yeah uh i want to ask you a little bit about your career right some of your films are acclaimed as like the greatest works in movie history right there's do the right thing and malcolm x and on down the line and then there's some that i feel like are a little bit forgotten or a little slept on is there one of yours that you feel like maybe deserves a little bit of shine that isn't in the same conversation as some of the best known stuff?

1:31:0525th Hour. My favorite. Hell yes, Spike. Yes. Why do you think that's important? I think it's a living document of New York City after 9-11. Great book by David Benioff. And I don't think New York City and the world was ready for that film. It was too close after. 9-11. But it's going to be, it's almost like a documentary, I would say, of New York City. The heart and soul of New York City under microscope after that terrific day. I wanted to ask you about the making of that quickly too, because did you feel like when you set out to do that film, was that a way for you to cope with some of the aftermath of what had happened in the city?

1:31:50Great question. I was not in New York the day before I flew to L.A. for a meeting with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I was trying at that time, still trying, to do a film called Save as Joe Louis, who I wrote with the great... Buzz Schilberg, right? Yeah, Buzz Schilberg. And my wife called me up that morning and said, turn on the TV, and I saw the second plane go in the tower. and Arnold called me, so he still wanted me. I said, let's meet. So we sat in this restaurant, not even talking about the film, but looking up at the TV screen. And that day, I had to get back to New York, and there was no, at that time, I didn't have my license, my driver's license, and I wanted to get home, and I went down to Union Station here in L.A., and the last train was sold out, and this beautiful black woman, I begged her, begged her, begged her.

1:32:50She said, let me speak to the porter. And they said, come on, Spike. So they alternated living spaces, but left a space a bump for me. So I went back to New York. It goes to L.A., Chicago, Chicago, to New York. So I got back to New York three days later. And, you know, I think that film will one day get the, you know, the love issue. yet, but that did not not. 20th Hour, late, great, Phyllis E. Mohoffman, Barry Pepper, Edward Norton, Rosario. I mean, that's a very, that film is very special to me. I love to hear you say that. And to New Yorkers, too. Absolutely. I am a New Yorker as well. So, yeah, I'm very touched by that movie.

1:33:38Great score by Terrence Blanchard on that, too. Broadly speaking, what do you think is missing from Hollywood right now? it's just hard and harder to get stuff made and I've been blessed to be able to do that for some films. You got streaming too. I'm not mad about streaming this for Apple. Plus this film would not have been made. I think that executives here I think there's so much writing stuff there. They're not so eager to take risk on on new faces new new new people new ideals new stories but you guys anybody might say that's that's the beginning of louis b the mayor and you know and all them old cats so i had to come through and i'm not the only one through independent cinema so that's that's where we are now do you know what your next film is going to be?

1:34:40I know, but I don't like to drink stuff, so I don't really talk about stuff until it happens. Why is the Schulberg script, why has it been so hard to get that made over the years? I wish you could tell me. This is Bud and I. I got to meet Bud through the Lickazan. Bud won an Oscar for On the Waterfront. Bud is in the Boxing Hall of Fame. Bud wrote What Makes Sammy Run. And Bud was at both Joe Louis, Max Schmelin, and Feist at Yankee Stadium. so this film's about the relation between Joe Lewis and Max Mellon and it's FDR, Eleanor Roosevelt Hitler, Goebbels Lena Horne, Sugary Rouse I mean everybody's in this film and I've said this many times on this tour for this film but I literally Bud made me promise on his dying bed to get this film made and I'm not going to be a liar I'm getting it made it's called Save Us Joe Lewis that second Joe didn't train for the first fight Hitler and Goebbels sent Hindenburg to New York to bring them back to the joyous Germans second fight Joe knocked them out, no before the second fight FDR summoned Joe Lewis to the White House wheeled next to him, he's in a wheelchair, said these muscles make us beat the Nazis and was well-believed, Bud Tolman's well-believed around the world that the winner of the second fight was determined to victor of World War II.

1:36:18So it was a great, great epic story. Can't wait to see it. Me too. I can't wait to make it. Two last quick ones for you. First one, before we got on, you said this is the next year. You really believe it? Go to your goal, go to your goal. your optimism is inspiring I'm not that kind of Knicks fan I have a hard time man it's been a long time is it look I don't wish injuries on anybody Halliburton and Tatum they're not playing this year I'm not scared of Cleveland so just give us a chance to go against OKC in the NBA Finals I'll take that I'll take it too Spike we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen.

1:37:06Have you seen any great movies? Sinners! Sinners! Sinners! Sinners by Brian. Brian. His co-produce, his wife, his partner, Zinzi. That's the film. That's the film. What is it about that film that you loved? The originality. I'm telling you, that scene, you know the music scene? That's the best filmmaking I've seen in years. that's just out the park I mean that here's the thing Ryan called me out of nowhere and said are you where are you guys I'm in LA he said you're in LA can you get to the IMAX theater because this is the final thing we're doing with Goals of Theater he said can you get how did I just happen being in LA that phone call so I rushed to the IMAX theater with you know making sure it goes straight forward goes to theater.

1:38:04So the technicians there, but in the middle of theater is me, Ryan, and Zinzi. And they're never going to invite me to another screen alone. I was acting like I was court-signed to guard. I was double-gedown. Ryan. That film, that's a cinematic masterpiece. I need to send them to another level. People can hate if they want to, but the proof's in the pudding. that's the joint right there. That's the joint. You like it? I loved it. It was my favorite movie of the year. And you know, you know from joints, that's what you do. So thank you so much for the time. Congrats on highest to lowest. Go Knicks.

1:38:48And also, let's have your people, my people, don't let this be another 39. How long have you been doing this? Eight years. All right, don't be another eight years when we're together, okay? When Joe Lewis comes out, you're coming back. That's it. Whatever the next film is, okay? Okay, whatever the next film is. Spike, thank you. Appreciate you. Bye-bye.

1:39:14Thank you to Spike Lee. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Next week, we build the Robert Altman Hall of Fame. How are you feeling? Like I have a lot of homework to do. But it's okay. I started early. I'm committed. Yep. You know, and this is one of your faves. so a real time for you to shine if you would like to prep for this episode and you're not amanda on the criterion channel right now there are a number of altman films as well as my introduction to those films so if you want to watch that stuff before we talk i'll try not to repeat myself too much when we do our episode uh we'll see you then

1:40:00Thank you.