‘Jurassic World Rebirth’ Does Not Find a Way. Plus: Nolan’s ‘The Odyssey’ Is Coming!

25:23And I actually found like all that stuff way more enjoyable than like, oh, Brontosaurus is necking, you know, like it was sweet, but like, you know, I think that the problem is that seeing Jurassic Park the first time when you're a kid, whenever you've seen it, like you could see it two years ago and have the same reaction. The first time you see the dinosaurs, you're having the reaction of the people in the park the first time they're seeing dinosaurs and this thing that they never thought would happen is happening. And as a kid, you're obsessed with dinosaurs, but you're like, I'll never actually know what these things look or feel or move like.

25:55And this first movie, Jurassic Park, is the closest thing we ever got to that feeling. and ever since then you know no matter what technological leaps they make it's still gonna be like great brontosaurus you know like I kind of feel like it's a shame it's a drug and you just get you get used to the drug after a while yeah I don't know I don't think you saw the last two Jurassic World movies so because of that you're like a little bit more open minded we just did this three years ago I did this last night yeah but I didn't like them and I I disagree too for me I like Like a watchable version of original Jurassic Park is more enjoyable than like a boring Chris Bratt.

26:39Like, you know, I understand Blue or whatever. And he's like friends with the Raptor. And then like Bryce Dallas Howard is there. And she's got like. He's got a little clicker. Yeah. And she has like save the island or something. Like, I don't know. I don't care about those people. Okay. Did you care about Zero? I don't care about those performances. You're dying on Rebirth Island. This is a weird one for you. I'm not dying on it. This is a weird one. It's just like, I didn't have a bad time. Yeah. It looks really good. It's just like every Gareth Edwards movie. It's just the plotting and the story is just real janky.

27:08You blame him or you blame the script or you blame Universal being like, we got to have a family in this. I said this to actually, I mentioned this when we were watching the movie. There's a cool sequence where they're moving through the jungle. And again, I agree that there are a lot of cool sequences, but there's a cool sequence where they're moving through the jungle. And Jonathan Bailey kind of takes over the movie a little bit. and he starts talking about kind of the arc of time and science and how we're just like a blip essentially in the history of this planet and dinosaurs have ruled for much longer than we will ever live on this planet.

27:32And it's classic David Koepp where he's just got, he's letting someone monologue because other characters are asking questions that you would never ask in real life. You know, there's a part where Rupert Friend is like, well, what do you mean by that? Which no one would ever say when a scientist starts talking. But Jonathan Bailey is a really good performer and that's really well-written stuff. So when you're watching that, you're like, this is kind of entertaining and it feels like it's raising the stakes, but it's totally manufactured and it's totally transparent. So something that feels deep or thematic is just something that we already learned in 1993 when we saw the first film.

28:06There's literally nothing new idea wise here. Yeah, I think that for as much as you can celebrate like the visual achievements of the first one, it also had a very coherent kind of like, what if we don't, you know, we can do something, but that doesn't mean we should. Right. And more and more as the films went on, I think it lost any kind of, what is this movie trying to say? Not that it has to say something, but good storytelling is grounded in an idea that matters whether it's dinosaurs or not. I think it's a question of what you ultimately want from the movies. You're saying you want to have that warm feeling of the wonder of a dinosaur sequence, right?

28:42Right. Or like be stressed out because even though I have literally like seen like I have the the design of the kitchen sequence from the original Jurassic Park, like memorized and I like reference it regularly when my sons figure out how to open a new door. you know I have like I haven't memorized but I was still stressed out in this recreation which is in a convenience store instead of a thing and it is like the small child has to hide somewhere and they're all like literally hiding behind as the you know like you could like schematically like shot for shot put it on but like I don't care it's like I was still stressed out I had a couple more questions for you yeah we're just doing free fire right yeah let's keep going how long do you think you could survive on a pure licorice diet Well, it's been almost 43 years now.

29:32There's a child in this movie seems to only eat licorice, both on the boat and on the island, and then befriends another dinosaur, gets through her trauma, honestly. A lot of trauma for everybody in this movie. Everybody's working through something. Trauma in a 21st century movie? Yeah, man. As a storytelling device? I just saw Drop the other night, and I was like, God damn it, this is like a fun movie with like this ridiculous like bookend plot on it. But Mahershala Ali lost a child maybe, but it's never explicitly said so. Well, he split up. Yeah. I think it is. It's explicitly that they lost a child and it was like too painful.

30:11They reminded each other of the child. So they split up and then he takes the picture of the child who I assume that that was like a baby picture of Mahershala Ali. It looks just like him. It looks so much like him. But then I was thinking, so like what's the ask? Who's being like, hey man, do you mind if we have a baby photo that we can then print out? You know, like I think that would fuck me up a little bit. Yeah, because we only have 90 seconds of conversation between you and ScarJo to establish your entire emotional register. I thought it was two minutes. And I have to say, I thought this is one of the better ScarJo performances I've seen in some times.

30:43So that's where I am. What did you think of Scarlett Johansson in this film? Well, I came into it knowing that she really wanted to make a Jurassic Park movie. That she had long desire to do one. The schedule's never worked out. she basically like begged to do this movie and I thought she acquitted herself pretty well I think one of her best performances is a little bit of a reach but I said in a while um sure okay uh yeah I think she's I liked it I didn't mind it she looks great um she does not have a lot of dialogue she doesn't scream milk to me no she isn't the first person you'd likely go to for this job would be my guess she seemed in control you know she knew that she needed Jonathan Bailey to hook her into those like the carabiners on either side of the ship so she wouldn't fall over after she shot the water dinosaur.

31:33That was some of the greatest Chekhov carabiner hooks I've ever seen in my life when she flips over the edge. Yeah, she was okay. What'd you think? I thought she was good, but the character was silly. Yeah. I mean, same for Mahershala. So I wonder whether or not you guys had the same sensation I did where it's like you know, they're boating and their capsizing and their rescue and then their kind of adventure through the jungle, the family I'm talking about, versus, did you have a preference of which movie you liked more, the mercenary science story or the family survival story? It's pretty easily the mercenary stuff for me, but I was kind of hoping that they would take it somewhere a little further beyond what was explained to us in the original film about the potential scientific power of dinosaur DNA.

32:26Yeah, I mean, that was just explored a long time ago. There's a very funny moment where they're talking about whether or not they're going to sell the dinosaur DNA to make tens of millions of dollars or make it open source so that everybody can get it. And Scarlett Johansson's like, who should we give it to? And I was like, please just say Robert F. Kennedy Jr. dinosaur DNA yeah it's just a good example of trying to have it both ways it's like you know this movie's being put out by a massive corporation and it's pretty dumb and they just want everybody to just eat their popcorn and shut up and like it over the holiday weekend this is not so the idea of suggesting that there would ever be a moment in time where a pharmaceutical company would not allow this precious information that they have acquired are we spoiling things can we hit the spoiler?

33:17I mean it's not necessary I think it's clear who's going to die in this movie from the moment the movie starts well actually I gotta tell you one guy made it who I thought was definitely destined for death so are you referring to Xavier? yeah really? yeah that's the other thing as soon as he showed up I was like oh that's the other thing this movie has no guts it doesn't kill anybody come on I'm so mad it's just it's really lame man this movie could have been a lot better because Gareth Edwards knows how to shoot a movie. It's just he keeps taking on movies with terrible scripts. Then Mahershala, like, fake death was silly.

33:49Yeah. Awful. It's just super lame. But I was also like... We even want him to die. Yeah. Don't put him in that position. But Mahershala, he's not actually dying. You don't actually have a relationship to Duncan Kincaid. Make him steal something, for fuck's sake. Have real stakes instead of just killing, like, the French captain who falls asleep, who's the most obvious, like, we've never seen this man in our lives before. He's obviously gonna die. Lady with short hair. Right, yeah. Too bad, yeah. let's see like I was going to try off the top of my head powering some of the dinosaur interactions here I really liked the water dinosaur I thought that all the like essentially like this is a great white shark stuff was really cool the boat flipping was good there's so many things that he does where I'm like oh shit like you're better than like 98 % of the people would have done that and then I liked all the kind of the like sailboat dinosaurs who showed up to help the big dinosaur you went to the bathroom I missed some of that running the boat into the shallows to try and outrun the Mosasaurus.

34:48Is that what it is? That was cool. The bird dinosaur, I could take or leave. Honestly. And in fact, I'm not a super big fan of airborne dinosaurs. I thought the T-Rex sequence was good. I thought that was really cool. I've never seen the T-Rex on its back before. That was a cool thing to show us. And then the raft opening up and then hiding the dinosaur departing and then chase through the river. I thought all that stuff was really good. It's a good example of like Gareth Edwards has the juice when it comes to this kind of action staging and the CGI looks really good in this movie for the most part.

35:27But anytime people start talking, I'm like guys, let's go back to getting eaten by dinosaurs. Can I go back? Can I do Amanda's Science Corner? Yes, please. Do we have to vamp for the music to kick in? Welcome to Amanda Dobbins' Science Corner.

35:49That sounded like the Super Mario. It is. It's like the Corn World. That's like the only video game song that I know. So, and this is going to kind of be a continuation of our, like the reproductive systems of mutated creatures that we don't really know what to be dealing with after 28 years later. Oh, yeah. I'd like to kind of talk about the embryo, the egg and the embryo extraction process. So what is he? So we think the embryonic fluid. I believe so. Is like has the DNA, but is also, I mean, I guess that is true that we know in humans from a testing perspective because now they can test the.

36:31Yeah. For potential discrepancies in the DNA. But now, but now they mostly do that with blood. But we see in the movie. Well, they do. No, I was laughing because I wasn't sure whether Science Corner was supposed to ask questions or answer them. It's a really good question. So it's basically he's doing amniocentesis. And then I guess it's amniotic fluid is that they're using. I don't know if it is exactly the same in terms of dinosaur eggs and birds as it is for humans. But you have to assume that's their model. I think we'd assume birds would be their model. Well, you know. Well, it's an egg in a nest.

37:07That's true. I did. When the angry mom bird showed up, I was like, oh, you're in trouble. Really? That was scary. You related to her? I did. And I was like, it's really, you don't want to be like in an enclosed space with some eggs when the mom comes back. Do you think that that bird dinosaur is on your mom's WhatsApp? Once again, we've learned that pterodons can't have it all. Hey, mama. What are you doing with my eggs? Hey, mama. That unhide blanket is coming your way. what did you guys think of the giant mutant dinosaur that dominates the opening sequence and the closing sequence of the movie it's pretty ugly you know some marks for not having the T-Rex come in and save the day as it has in so many films I was waiting for the T-Rex to come through and fuck that guy up you know and it did teach me a lesson about maybe we shouldn't once again we shouldn't fuck with nature you know because that's what you get you learned that lesson in 1993 well apparently I haven't because we're still here and also I'm getting lasers on my face to try to reverse time you know so yeah I did but just one but just a laser nothing injected yet you gotta be careful with those lasers because they do attract dinosaurs so next time you get that laser going we do learn that the red light Gareth Edwards he loves a red light man you know remember in Godzilla this is his thing the opening sequence of this movie is very much like Godzilla through the glass we've seen this before you know with that with two actors I don't know as opposed to Julia Pinoche and Bryan Cranston giving the performance of their lives in Godzilla Cranston's such a fucking maniac I like them both they're very good they're so angry do you think it's the 8am do you think it was the call time yeah if I brought you like a pastry no it's just this movie was rushed and you can tell and they could have done better like it's just clear that they could have done better why are you flaring your nostrils at me like I just I just showed up because you owe it to the people to tell them the truth.

39:05And I am telling them the truth because I got the fuck up. I went to see a movie and I had a pretty good time. Yeah, I'm sure some people will feel that way, but I, this is in a realm of a certain kind of, like this is representative of the circling the drain era of franchise filmmaking to me. This is like, this is, it's not as bad as Fast X at all. And I'm not as mad as I was about that. This movie has a lot more craft in it, but it's a little insulting. I think you're feeling the way I was feeling during Ballerina. Like, I mean, where I'm like mad about this and nobody else is really mad. They're just like, that wasn't very good.

39:38I actually, I mean, I enjoy, I was probably closer to Amanda on this, but that's more just because I'm like, oh, they shot this on film, huh? Yeah. I'm usually like, I'm usually willing to forgive some of these things. I think I just forgave. But it just gets too close to something you know you like and then it comes up short. I was just going to say that I didn't have this problem with F1 because I hadn't quite seen a movie like that before. So the set piece stuff that I saw in that movie, I was like, oh man, this is racing. I've never seen this in a movie before. This is incredible. So I was more willing to forgive some of the script problems.

40:07In a movie like this, I'm like, I don't know, we got six dinosaur movies already. What's your version of this then? Would it be like, what's a movie that you like, this comes too close to something I already know I like and it's not good enough? I don't know, because they don't, they've just given up making movies. Clint Eastwood Westerns. Yeah, that's exactly. Bill Ryder. I guess like Netflix movies, you know, like all of the, like the romantic comedy stuff. But even then, it's like they don't spend any money on that. That shit doesn't even look good. You know? So like the fact that it actually, it does look good.

40:37Respectfully, I thought the performances in this movie were like better than almost everyone except Javier Bardem in F1. But that's just... In Rebirth. Yeah, that's just something that I'm working on. That's just a wild take. He's like actively bad in that movie. Yeah, but Carrie Condon's in that movie. Tobias Menzies. James and Idris. this movie's okay, but they're barely humans. They barely talk. But they at least have some sort of charisma. Okay. I don't know. I'm happy for you, I guess. This is like Siskel, Ebert, and Chris. I wasn't that mad. I get mad at plenty of things. Do you think, one thing that I thought was interesting, unless there was a cut scene that I'm not available that we missed, was that there is really no breadcrumb trail to a sequel here.

41:23I cannot imagine that Universal so we'll let that go cold. But it's fascinating that I can't imagine. Dolores left the island, right? Dolores left the island and the DNA left the island. So why go back to the island? I mean, you know, leave the site from orbit. Yeah, I think that's kind of the challenge of this franchise in general is like, the first film is contained. The second film, they leave and get out into the wider world. The third film, they have to go back. Then in the fourth film, they're like, we're going to redo the park because it's been 20 years and everybody forgot. And then we're going to go back to America.

41:54and then we're going to go back to the island. Like they keep ping-ponging back and forth. There's no expansion. I'm not suggesting they go to space, but there's no expansion beyond those two journeys. And so it just gets redundant. Dinosaurs in space. Could be good. You never know. James Cameron should make that. Leave Frisnolan alone. That would be pretty good. Put a dinosaur on the moon, dog. I was just Googling like Suriname geographically to kind of understand like what the next... The former Dutch colony, right? Yes, but it's... Or is it still a Dutch colony? I want to say I'm happy for Vampire Weekend for getting a needle drop and a major blockbuster.

42:29The Primal Scream one was shocking. That's the thing is, when you go down the list of this movie, you're like, Alexander Desplat did the score. John Matheson, who shot Gladiator, shot this movie. Gareth Edwards, the single greatest CGI artist working in Hollywood. So on paper... Two Oscar winners. Yes, ScarJo and Marisola hanging out on a boat. This all sounds so good. And, you know, here's where I have it. So where is Suriname? Tell us about it. So, I mean, it is in South America, the northeastern coast of South America. And I assume they were on like islands, you know? So I guess they're like headed back to continental South America.

43:07But we're not far from... Well, they departed from Suriname, but I think they went some miles out. Yeah, they had to go to Barbados and then they were in Suriname. So Barbados is north. Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. We're not that far from the Caribbean. So like maybe they're in like a, their own Bermuda's triangle, but they could head back to the Caribbean. And then that would at least be contained again. Those are highlands. Yeah. So what you're saying is this movie might be a secret Bermuda Triangle movie. I mean, I like where we can go with that. Like maybe they sail into the Bermuda Triangle.

43:41Would that please you? That would be exciting. It would be new. There you go. It would be new. Okay, look, see, we solved it. It would give us a new sense of confusion that I think these films really need. They go into the Bermuda Triangle, into a time portal. They show up in 1993, Costa Rica. D. H. Lord Dern, Sam Neill, and Richard Attenborough. Costa Rica is far away. From, you know, you got to get all the way through the Caribbean. Is Dick Attenborough dead? He's dead. You killed him. No, I was thinking about David Attenborough still narrating. Oh, he's still kicking. Hey, brothers? I don't know.

44:14Richard Attenborough passed in 2014. Yeah. He was 90 years old. You think he caked up from Jurassic Residuals? You think they took care of him? um no but he directed Gandhi so I think he's okay um what kind of residuals do you think Gandhi's throwing off the film Gandhi or his family legacy all of his investments yeah in great British import um Gandhi probably not that strong I do believe it was recently issued in 4k okay so there could have been some new revenue streams no I'm not a fan of that film okay it's quite boring it's an example of like it's something I don't need to own it's a short list of things I don't need to own one of them.

44:53You will not be buying Jurassic World Rebirth 4K. You will not be buying that. We'll see. What are you talking about? I don't think I own any Gareth. No, I own Godzilla and Rogue One. Rogue One you gotta own. Is Monsters on 4K? Just Blu-ray, but I don't own that. The Creator? I don't own it. What would you like? For robots to be free. Doesn't this feel very similar to the Creator? It felt very similar to Monsters. Yeah, but just with a lot bigger. budget and more CGI. He's like, I've been waiting. In some ways, he's been waiting 15 years to make this movie. He has. Yeah, it did feel similar to the creator where you're like, there are five things that happen in this movie that are some of the best stuff you'll see all year and then there's a lot that could have been workshopped.

45:36I know, man. It's a holiday weekend. I'm just, I'm ready to go. I'm happy for you. Similar moment in the creator where the, is it the national anthem or which, or is it, which kid a needle drop hits in The Creator where it's like John David Washington flying in a helicopter amidst utter destruction in the world and a radio head needle drop. Everything in its right place. I watched The Creator on an airplane without sound so I wouldn't... You didn't get a chance to hear that. How come you get out no sound just because you were like I want to go back to silent films? No, because I was with my child and it's like it's honestly and Knox was younger so it's just like too hard to keep the thing plugged in.

46:18Because he's just pulling it out? Yeah. basically. So these movies are an incredibly reliable box office success. And the reason why this one happened as quickly as it did is because there was a need to get a big movie on the slate for the studio this summer. Do you think that there will still be the like billion dollar appetite for this so quickly after Dominion? What's coming up next? What's the next big summer movie after this? Superman. Superman, yeah. How many weeks? Next week? In five, seven days. I mean we heard applause when we were walking out of an 8am screening like I think that this will have decent word of mouth among people who are like I want to see dinosaurs rock and roll

47:00and I guess cinephiles who like things shot on film I don't know I know that it's not been has it been formally received no the reviews are very bad but also Charles Holmes was in here being like really liked it so and that's a historical hater it's true let's pull up the old rotten tomatoes for Jurassic World Rebirth it's not good it did not it's at 53 % yeah yeah I'm curious I mean the box office wise this is a very sturdy franchise let's just take a look at the last few so

47:38Jurassic World this is just domestic I think Jurassic World did 652 million Fallen Kingdom 417 Dominion 376 the original Jurassic did 357 Lost World 229 and Jurassic Park 3 181 if you had to guess where do you think this one will land? Below Dominion but in the I think it'll I think 300 300 that sounds right that sounds about it's going to do 100 million over this 5 day period for sure I don't think the word of mouth is going to be super strong I think it'll satisfy the Jurassic heads for sure and there are a great many. So let me tell you about my experience over the weekend because you mentioned I did get a chance to see Glenda and Elphaba at Universal Studios, which was very nice for my daughter.

48:23But we also got to experience something that I did not know existed because I haven't been to Universal Studios in 15 years. There are animatronic dinosaurs in the park. So when you go to Universal Studios in California, you have to go down literally four giant escalators. So you walk all the way to the back of the park and you go down four escalators. and at the back of the park, at the bottom of the park, is Dinoland. No minions. Dinoland and Super Nintendo World. That's where all the Super Mario Brothers stuff is. In Dinoland, there are, quote unquote, InGen employees who are luring out life-sized animatronic dinosaurs that you can interact with.

49:06This experience was so much more cool than this stupid movie. I couldn't believe the technology with which you can interact with these actual dinosaurs. And it obviously makes sense given the nature of this kind of storytelling. But it was, for once in my life, to not be in a movie theater was a better experience movie-wise. A hundred times out of a hundred, I'm picking a movie theater to whatever the hell it is you just described. Like where I'm interacting with performers. You know who would not is your son. Your son would have his head split open by this. He's three, so he would just be scared.

49:40It wasn't that scary. but when he's four he's potty trained now so when are you taking him out this was when's he ready to start fielding grounders now this was obviously intentional marketing for this movie which I didn't realize but there was a an employee who was walking around with a backpack that had a little dinosaur in it that like little kids could like pet and it was Dolores you know Val sees that she's gonna flip out she did see it do you have a Dolores now no we saw the Dolores in the park yeah do you have one at home no they weren't selling it or anything like that it was like It was a little animatronic baby dinosaur that kids could interact with.

50:14Their minds were melting. Copperfield alien? Yeah, it was like that. It was just like that. Can I tell a person what we like to real quick? I was in Oregon over the weekend and I was on a hike. And before we started the hike, I was going to a ranger station just to go to the bathroom really quick. And as I was coming out, I really hit my head hard on a roof eave that was hanging over. And I'm like, fuck, that hurt. and I'm walking and they're like these three women lovely women were like are you okay? and I was like oh yeah yeah yeah and they were like are you okay? that was really hard and I'm like do I have blood streaming out of my head?

50:50and then they go are you Chris Ryan? so McKenna and her two friends I am alive and thank you they were big picture fans oh that's nice hi McKenna were you badly concussed? no I was fine okay yeah I have a hard head I've hit it a lot in my life you know did it leave a bruise? no I don't think so everything's fine Everything's cool. Yeah. Are we, is this really you? Is this not an animatronic you? Because I like the movie a lot. No, no, I'm just, I'm just interrogating a little bit. I want to make sure that you're not the AI exoskeleton version of CR. You can't really rank these movies because you missed the last two.

51:26Okay. Then I can put in my mind, Jurassic world at the bottom. Okay. Okay. Over. So you prefer Jurassic park three to Jurassic world. I don't really remember it. To be honest, I've seen it. I'm going to make you upset. I'm going to put Jurassic World Rebirth at four. Ooh. Over all of the Jurassic, all the Pratt movies. Trevorrow, J.A. Bayona movies. I mean, that's fine, but it's like four, five, six, and seven are all. You wanted to rank them. Way below. I honestly. What? Well, you said that you're going to upset me, and it doesn't upset me. We showed up at the movies to have a nice time together.

52:07That's not why we showed up at the movies. You're so mad at us. I'm not mad. I'm not mad. Don't put in the newspaper that I'm mad about Jurassic World. I am mad. I'm mad. You should just like get it. I just want to know. I deserve better. We should like get a newspaper that says I'm mad. If you had a meal today. You've been the mad queen recently. And you were like at 5.30, six o 'clock. You were like, I'm going to get a beer with CR and Amanda after this. I had a Coke. You know, like. It's got nothing to do with the time. I'm up at that hour every day of my life. But you don't think about like science and Robert Kennedy and Zora Bennett that early in the morning.

52:40Do you? I think about Robert Kennedy every morning of my life because of the hellscape that we invented. When you're doing Tylenol, you're like, maybe this is the last one. She's like, so fucked up. No, I don't want my intelligence insulted at the movies. That's honestly how I feel. I think that just because a movie is a big blockbuster doesn't mean it has to be stupid. This movie is stupid, in my opinion. All right. I know that's a hard thing to respond to because there's not going to be any moving me off that stone. No, I think it's okay. That's fine. It's generally how I feel. I've had reactions like that to things.

53:09I hope Celine Song directs the next one.

53:14I'm not sure that the performances would be any better if she did. Have you gotten any feedback on your materialist love? No, I haven't heard anything of you guys. Nothing, no. No. I think it's okay to just like what you like, you know? It's a tough world out there.

53:31Do you think this will be nominated for Best Picture? Name that movie is better than it.

53:40what's the movie that Naaman talked about the other day for like 13 minutes Caught by the Tides that's number one I sent Sean a meme of two basketball players one is Michael Porter Jr. who is a legendary idiot who was on the Nuggets and has got a podcast where he interviews like porn stars and conspiracy theorists and mostly is just sharing his takes and he's like it's a clip of him being like I heard Homeland Security invaded Diddy's house. Why did they do that? And then the next is Cam Thomas. Cam Johnson or Cam Thomas? Cam Johnson. Who got traded for Michael Porter Jr. Okay. Giving like an amazing, beautiful answer about the ballet and physique of the jump shot and going left versus going right.

54:25Okay. And I said it to Sean and I was like, this is like the difference between me and Naaman on the pod.

54:34That's funny. That was really good. The MPJ of the big picture. But you're a dead-eye shooter. I am. Just like you shoot 40 % from three every season. And we really appreciate that about you. Who is your comp for Face of the Ringer? My comp? Oh, I didn't get one. You didn't get one? No. Did he get one? Did Sean? No, it was just more, it was Joe and then I think Bill. But I can't remember even, I can't even remember. Joe is Kyrie Irving. Right. Van pointed out that she was Tatum. I was Tatum. Because you love your son? That was literally why. But I said it was because she has no swag. Okay. Much like JT.

55:19JT off the board. You're going to time out for the rest of the weekend. Because I am your father. I don't really have anything else on the movie. Okay. You want to talk about Running Man? You want to talk about anything else? yeah I mean Running Man looks good it looks fun November yeah November 7th yeah I think it will be I'm curious if the Edgar Wright action filmmaking style is super mainstream because this is a movie that wants to be super mainstream right and it's obviously inventive there's a couple of moments you can see just similar with set pieces stairway thing yeah the stairway moment the electrified water gun that Michael Sarah fires the elevator sequence, the bomb, the grenade, all that stuff is really cool and fun.

56:06Coleman Domingo is playing it really big as the host. Glenn Powell is playing it. And so is Glenn Powell too. And he doesn't usually play that style of like, he seems very angry. And his character seems mad in the movie. Toe to toe mad with Brolin, one of the kings of mad acting. So we'll see if that works. I hope it does. I like everybody involved. I'm open to it. And I'm mixed on right usually. but I you know the Glenn Powell of it all he seems really into wearing disguises you know he's like I like that in Hitman he's like I'm gonna keep doing it that's like his running you think you should do that in Top Gun 3

56:45we're in a fake mustache in some classes did you guys talk about Top Gun 3 we haven't do you believe it I feel like we're gonna have to worry about F2 first you know F1 big hit now they're gonna make another one they got Kaczynski back in there Kaczynski really just a lot going on right now in your world. I know. Because there's... He's an invasive species. Well, there's a UFO movie. I love him. But like he's coming for Miami and it's sacred ground. So UFO movie, F-1-2, Top Gun 3, and a Miami Vice movie written by Dan Gilroy. Okay. And did you see the report that just not Kaczynski related but adjacent to Miami Vice is that the script for Heat 2 has been turned in and apparently Warner Brothers were thrilled.

57:31Oh, good. Yes, that is only in the realm of rumor right now, right? There's not been... Where do you think I live, you know? You do live in the world of... Much like Jon Bernthal in the Odyssey. Rumor and gossip. Yeah. Heat 2, you feeling good? I just thought it was interesting that that report came out. What's the casting rumor right now? Still Driver, right? It was... Austin Butler or Chiharles was the one that has been the most forward. I think there was also like Austin Butler is going to be in the Don Winslow trilogy. He's going to star in the Don Winslow trilogy. So I think his dance card is getting very full.

58:08Yeah. And I can't remember who else was being kicked around. Oscar Isaac at one point, but I don't know. When's the last time you saw Heat? Two or three years ago. Oh, fairly recently. Yeah. I turned it on. I can't remember why, but it was somehow big picture related. I turned it on and then Zach wandered in about 20 minutes in. It was like, you watching Heat? He didn't tell me and then just sat down. Were you watching it because of Ferrari? Maybe. Or maybe I was watching it even before because Heat 2, the book, came out. And I was like, oh, I'm going to read Heat 2, but I should probably revisit Heat first.

58:47But then I never read Heat 2 because Zach took it and then read it. But then it popped up in your background. What are you talking about? It's in the bookshelf where you record your podcast. Oh, that's in Zach's office. Well, everybody was like, holy shit. He too is right behind Amanda's head. Well, that's where he took it. Okay, so he took it in his office. And he closes that. We have to keep that door closed because... Raptors. Oh, yeah. Because the raptors figured out. And then they find all the loud toys. Two raptors are like, did you finish you too yet? It's an amazing place to wrap. Thank you both.

59:20Thank you for loving cinema. You really showed your love today in the face of my discontent. Let's go now to my conversation with Ava Victor.

59:31Very happy to have Ava Victor here talking about a debut movie and hopefully your life and career. When there's a first time filmmaker on the show, I always ask the very stupid, where did you come from? Why are you here? How did you get here? Question. It's stupid potentially to you, but to me, it's a fabulous question. Well, would you mind answering it? I would love to answer. It's like that question makes me want to say I'm from San Francisco and then talk about movies. But so I'll do that. Perfect. I went to school for acting and playwriting and then moved to New York after school and was auditioning for things and then eventually started writing and started making videos online that were like one minute comedy videos.

1:00:22And then in the pandemic, everything kind of slowed down and I started watching movies to sort of escape my life, but also to sort of go deeper into my life. Something was happening. I don't totally have the words for it still, but I think I was looking for companionship in film and it sort of let me feel a lot, but in the company of the film. So that sort of set me on a track of being like, well, what if I made my own film? And then I went away and wrote, sorry, baby, and sent it to Barry and Adela and Mark at Pastel, who I'd met before. And I felt like they saw me as a filmmaker before anyone else believed in me in that way.

1:01:11You're going to, this is obviously a podcast, but I will start to sweat because I'm in a small room and I just want you to know that I know I'm sweating. So it's not an issue for me. I just want you to know I'm ahead of it, but I'm ahead of it. I'm sitting in front of bright lights and also sweating so we can sweat together. I would never know. Okay, cool. I naturally don't emanate this glow. This is manufactured. Thank you for sharing that. I feel more safe and comfortable. Um, can I, can I, can I interrupt you for a second? Because I did read that you had this moment of relationship building to movies during the pandemic, which I think millions of people developed a deeper bond to watching things and specifically films too.

1:01:52But did you have a big relationship to movies before that? Would you consider yourself a cinephile or a film fan when you were growing up? You know, I watched, we didn't really have TV at my house. We had a VHS player and then a DVD player and we had like 10 DVDs and they were slash VHS. we transitioned to DVD and that was like a huge moment for the family. But we started, like I watched Singing in the Rain, Swing Time, Top Hat, like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers stuff, and then Hard Day's Night was a big one. And then I watched all of Bewitched and my mom was like, this is sexist, but really good.

1:02:31And I was like, not a problem. So I watched a lot of the same things over and over again, but I, I didn't, you know, I feel like there's this thing that happens where people are like, well, if you want to make a movie, you have to watch the Godfather. And so I was like, okay, so I'm going to watch all this stuff that everyone says you have to watch. But then through that found the move, like through the Godfather, through the shining, like, which are amazing. I found the movies that I think were more my speed, like Paris, Texas, or in the mood for love, or, you know, just like slow, beautiful things.

1:03:07But yeah, there's like, I feel like watching movies when you want to make movies starts as like a fraudulent feeling. And then you, like, I think it started with that. And then I sort of fell in love with what I was watching and it became much more heart motivated. Can you tell me about the trying to write? Did you buy Save the Cat? Did you buy other screenplays and study that? Like, what'd you do? How'd you figure out how to do it? I'd written one pilot once. I took a class. I really didn't like what I wrote. And we'll never talk about it. Hard line there. And then I wrote... You just brought it up, though.

1:03:43What was it about? I know. I just tried to like... I was just playing with fire. I can't talk about it. It was about a part-time job I'd had that really... I thought was really funny. And maybe in like 20 years, we'll have like a hangout. And I'll tell you about it. But it's actually really boring. So let's move on. Sounds nice. I wrote like a... I was working on this like movie for a studio and, uh, it was, and that was very like three act structure, like sort of, but you know, save the cat for me has always been this, uh, I've always been very burdened by the, I've always been very angry and felt very rebellious against that because I'm like, well, it's not a check.

1:04:23It's not a checkbox, you know, thing, but I do think it's a helpful tool to check your work, but I don't think it should ever come from there but no I was so I was writing this kind of three-act structure thing that was supposed to be this big thing and then I went away and wrote another film that was like this sort of queer horror thing uh that that uh was also a feature but very small and then Sorry Baby was sort of my my third time writing a feature so by the time I got to Sorry Baby I was it was sort of like rejection is my lifestyle. so I'm just gonna write what I want to write like I just had been rejected for like 10 years like honestly with like acting but and I've gotten certain things but there's so much rejection that at some point the pain of not writing the thing I desperately want to write overtook the sort of comfort in not writing it so Sorry Baby was sort of my fuck the world no one wants this like I'm just gonna write the thing I want to write and maybe just write it to write it um but yeah structurally it was it's like I think I only could write it once I figured out how time worked and how how the pieces of the film came together because I knew I wanted it to exist over a certain amount of years and have these like threads through the years that only this one character can feel and see and we get to we get in we get led into what those threads are but yeah the process of writing I keep looking for like the notebook I had at that time because I feel like I was very weird about time.

1:05:57And it's like, you write this time, you write this time, you stretch here. Like I was, I was doing some weird stuff, but it was, it was good. It was like time with myself. I love that nonlinear approach that you take in the movie. And I, there are times when I'm, I've seen the film twice now and seeing it there. You're welcome. Where I know where I am in the timeline. And then there are times where I feel like I'm slipping in the timeline and I don't always know where I am. And you don't use typical tricks of shifting to black and white or putting a sepia tone on what could be perceived as like a flashback or an earlier stage in the character's life.

1:06:34Can you kind of talk about how you made decisions like that and how comfortable you were leaving the viewer uncomfortable with some of those things? Yeah, I was also feeling very like allergic to sepia tone past vibe. Like I was in the color, especially I was like, this can't be too pretty. like I just I don't want it to feel like the only thing we really shifted color wise and in the color was like the jury scene I really wanted to feel like sticky hot summer and we had shot in the winter um but that was really actually sort of mild shifts because we had so much light we just had to make the light a different color but yeah I think like the structure of the film is really like flashbacks aren't actually happening it's like we are in present day then we go back four years and then work our way back to the present skipping over the one we missed um the reason I started the film how I did was because I really wanted it to be very clear that the film is about this friendship and these are the two characters we are falling in love with and that the film will uh give you insight into um and it felt important to me that we didn't see the traumatic thing happened at the beginning because I didn't want that to color how we were able to see Agnes I wanted us to meet her as she is and as we would meet her and then go back and uncover sort of how we got to this point and why this friendship feels so deep and strong um and it's sort of the reason why the film exists is for the scene in the bathtub when Agnes is telling Liddy what happened and Liddy holds that information so beautifully and the film is really meant to be about these milestones and a friendship so starting with a this sort of visit with so much love and joy but also a little mystery and discomfort about what sort of where they come from and why they're here like this uh it just felt like the natural place to start and I mean it's also bookended by like Liddy comes in and makes this announcement and then And at the end of the film, we get this sort of manifestation of the announcement.

1:08:44It felt like the right container. I feel like people keep asking you about balancing the tone of this movie. I know. So I have kind of a question about that that I picked up on the second time I watched it, which is when your character is with other people in the film, there is like a warmth and often sense of humor and joke. Not always, but mostly. even in dark times in the story. And when your character is alone and contemplative, it's a completely different kind of, it feels like a different kind of a movie. It is a pure, it's like a cerebral drama, an emotional drama. Wow, that's pretty cool.

1:09:26Were you thinking of it in that way? That was kind of what I wanted to know. Did you see there being like a, you know, a bifurcation between the tones based on what was happening with your character? Yeah, I mean, I think, I'm kind of because I've been asked the question about like humor in the film so much I feel like I have a theory and most of it was quite intuitive honestly about like what when we should laugh it just felt right certain at certain moments but I think there's like laughter sometimes because Agnes is I've been humbled to discover quite awkward people are saying she's awkward and I'm like heard and humbled um and i think her she's very blunt and not afraid of silence and that is comedic because it's uncomfortable and she is not afraid of sitting in discomfort in a group so that i think is a source of comedy i think a source of laughter that i don't think is like humor but it is sort of is as agnes and litty's like joyful friendship together makes us feel a part of it and there's sort of like this euphoric joy there and then also there's like a more heightened humor that is sort of the writer telling you to laugh because we're pointing at someone who's doing something weird and we're allowed to make fun of that person like the doctor for instance so there's like laughs in that because we are pointing the like the movie is being like this guy sucks and that is a relief and funny I agree like when Agnes is alone it's like it's like genuinely not funny and it's like three colors blue vibes like it's a woman alone like trying to make sense of the world and her confronting the world is where humor exists because she's in such a different state than the rest of the world and that juxtaposition is bizarre and potentially funny.

1:11:26Yeah, it really struck me in the scene where you cut to yourself on the toilet and then go to start putting the thesis up on the window. Yeah. Which I thought was like, that's a scene you maybe wouldn't find in a more conventional version of this story where we're sitting with you for minutes across minutes, no dialogue. Yeah. Trying to understand what you were thinking, how you were feeling, what decisions you're making in that, which I just thought was a very cool and interesting choice. Thank you. Thanks. It took a lot of practicing getting the papers on the window in the same order. It was very neat.

1:12:06It was like 2 a.m. and they were like, one, two, three, four, five, do you get it? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do that. It was an interesting papers on the window. But, you know, then we cut to the cat meowing. So it's kind of like, we get a little something, a little joy. I want to ask you an independent film question. God, here we go. Did you have to go and like sell the movie to financiers? Yes. Well, can you talk about that experience? Well, luckily my producers are very, very smart and didn't send me to, like, they're very thoughtful and smart and have a lot of wonderful financiers that they've worked with before.

1:12:43So I did very deliberate meetings. It's really interesting. It was my first time having to explain the movie in a way that felt digestible. I was very stressed out because I'd never really done like a pitch meeting, anything like that, where I had to display my personality in a way that was nice and palatable. So that was interesting. it's interesting I mean it was also like you may like I made a specific lookbook sort of pitch deck or something for the financier meetings that we sent the script with and and that piece was interesting because I had my own private lookbook which was like double life of Veronique and like things that everyone was like we don't understand why this is your reference and I'm like I swear like there's something and this was a lookbook that was like Juno Fargo um like some Claire Denis but like let the sun shine in Claire Denis like it was very uh it was much more commercial you know and and the thing it's hard to explain something before you do it like I was kind of making a case for I want it to be a beautiful film that feels like an art house film and also it's funny and having to be like Juno plus Margaret Kenneth Lonergan I swear like there's something that will work and people are just we luckily got people who sort of didn't really bat an eye at me at me wanting to be in it and asked really good questions about why I wanted to direct it.

1:14:35And it was a really new journey. I mean, every part of making this film has been like totally new. I'm like, oh, we do this next? Like completely shocking. But no, it was an interesting experience for sure. Related to that, did you anticipate writing such a personal piece and then having to like basically sell it through the entirety of its lifespan going into movie theaters and having to talk about this thing, that must be very strange. No, I didn't know. I didn't really know what would happen like this. I think it's good I didn't know. And the one thing that lets me sort of sleep at night, if you will, is that I did make the movie I wanted to make.

1:15:25So that allows me to feel really glad that that's... This is a movie that people are going to get to see. But no, it's a really... I mean, directing and acting and writing the film means that most of the press you do is by yourself, which is... I didn't expect. I didn't think of. And when I have Naomi and Lucas around me, I find it to be much easier. But, I mean, this is going really well, though, so I don't mean this. I mean... I don't feel undied. like it's a it's a really interesting thing i think there's a lot of curiosity around what parts are my life and what parts aren't and you know the dream is you sort of get to make a film put it out then people talk about it how they want to talk about it and you sort of never appear anywhere like you just get to sort of release it and then let people take what they want but that's not the realistic thing of wanting people to also see the movie like i have to also i want people to feel invited to see the film.

1:16:28So it's, it is, it's a, it's a journey though. It's presses and presses interesting. Yeah. I talked to a lot of directors on the show and a lot of times they'll be like, this is a deeply personal work for me, but it's about aliens and like a war in space. And there's so much like allegory and metaphor that people like the press is trying to unpack about a project. But when the movie is like almost being marketed to you as like a very personal story an intimate story and invariably like I'm sure you have to find yourself kind of constantly confronting people asking you things you don't want to talk about all day every day which I I find that like just a bit strange but it must be a thousand times more strange for you it is strange I mean it's also like well we're just meeting and you're asking me that but am I asking you that like damn but I think it's filmmakers I look around and I realize that people have found very creative ways to hide themselves in their films.

1:17:28And I had this one really smart filmmaker tell me once, I just swapped the gender and no one ever asked me anything. And I'm like, haha, that's too funny. But yeah, it is kind of draining to talk about. But I do love the film and I love talking about the film. And I like when it can get kind of film-maker-y. I like to nerd out a bit with why I did certain things. There's versions of it that are really joyful, of talking about the film. And also, you know, people are writing about the film because they feel moved by it. So it's like, well, that's not so bad. People want to talk to me because they want to ask questions, and that is inherently a beautiful idea.

1:18:17so I was thinking about this recently because I have a friend who published a memoir a few years ago about a very specific complicated event in their life and then he is just now publishing his first novel and he was using it as like a way to figure out almost like how to write a book yeah and so I was thinking about that in regards to you too and sort of like do you see yourself kind of permanently as a filmmaker like is this your vocation now was this just the right thing for the right time in your life, how do you see in the aftermath of Sorry Baby? I mean, you're going to have to pry it out of my cold, dead hand if you want to take away making films for me because I'm addicted and I'm obsessed.

1:18:56And I don't even know what that even means, but I feel so excited about what could happen next. And I think making this film as my first film is completely right and it feels really like cosmic in a few ways and also I do look forward to the sort of like it's a very personal film and it being like an alien film like you said like I'm I look forward to seeing how how to move through like a like through personal to a different energy of film but knowing how much work it takes to make a movie now it really has to be like you have to be completely obsessed with the with what you're working on and it like I I look forward to feeling obsessed like that again and there's this weird grief of making the movie is over and I'm like well fuck that was cool I'd love to make a movie again because that was like way too cool to be real I can't even believe it's a real job it's almost like funny how awesome it is did you have you already started doing whatever would come next I don't know how do you know listen I feel quite exposed like I am sharing this thing and it's being released from me and given to others to judge as they please and when I was writing this film I feel like I was banging on a box of like let me out like is anyone listening and now all I want is my box again so it's a bit of a like Sisyphus thing of like I want what I don't have I want the privacy of writing and no one knowing and and the secrecy of crafting something alone, which is when I was doing that, all I wanted was to just make something in community.

1:21:06So I miss the thing and I'm excited to go back to my private zone. What about the sort of, it sounded like the feeling of motivation you were getting after being told no all those times in the lead up to writing this movie. Like that's over now, at least for now. Like you won prizes for this movie. You know, this is an acclaimed debut feature film. So can you... You won prizes for this movie. I won a big teddy bear for the movie. That's true. That's true. More than that. More than that. True. But do you ever, do you think about how do I conjure the requisite motivation to be underestimated and to show them just the true nature of my creativity?

1:21:51yeah i mean i haven't really felt like any sort of arrival at anything i there's so much to to say in the world that i feel like i just got to say a little thing and it's like well if you want to hear more i have a lot to say um but no i i think i you know i no one knows who I am. I made a very small film. It's coming out the same weekend as F1. Like I, I do understand, like, I don't, there's no like, oh, like my mom's going to be mad by how much I'm saying, like, you'll cut them all out, right? No, you won't. Okay. Then I'll work on it privately right now. I'll censor. Please don't censor. I, it's a weird thing.

1:22:47I don't understand who the film is reaching I get a sense of it when I'm at a screening but no I I I also think people sometimes want you to make the thing they've seen you make like make comedy videos no one wanted me to make a movie they were like we don't want to do that we want you to make like a a version of comedy videos that makes everyone more money not you know my people but people I'd meet with and it it sort of making another movie is about kind of starting from scratch and making the kind of movie you haven't made yet it's almost like doing a whole new thing you understand some things about making a film but other things because it's a different film are completely new and it's almost like you have to make it your first film again and so it never feels like any it hasn't I haven't felt like any sort of a rival or like understanding of how to do this it doesn't feel easy or anything do you feel like any pressure to capitalize this and make more money that's something I'm always interested in with independent filmmakers like do I have to scrape and claw so many filmmakers that are in the position that you're in at this exact moment would like at least in the last 10 years like take a Jurassic Park movie you know what I mean and just be like Yeah, I'm porting over my Sundance success to join a huge franchise.

1:24:13I'm not suggesting you're going to do that. But I think a lot of times that's informed by I was broke till I was 37. And now I need to buy a house if I want to have a family. That sort of thing. You know what I mean? Totally. It's weird how money works. It's weird how you can make a film like this and it takes five years every day of your life. And then you do something for one day and it makes like five times as much. Like I don't, it's very interesting. Are you a professional assassin or something? What do you, what do you, what's that other thing you're referring to? You can kill someone and you can't get more money than that.

1:24:58No, like seriously sounding totally scary as I'm saying that. no I think although I would love to I feel a bit spoiled in a way that like honestly my film got it was bought at Sundance for and I don't know if I'm allowed to say the amount but like much more than it was made for and that's very rare and you know I was on a tv show a few years ago and that has been carrying me through like the money I made on that has been carrying me through making this film and you're good on that tv show I watched that tv show billions yeah that was good thank you thank you I was a genius on the show I remember every word I said before the table because I didn't know what anything meant and then I one time watched a video of someone doing like data I mean like doing day trading to just see how their fingers moved on the computer like I I seriously can't believe I got that part bless up I bought it it worked thank you um but yeah I think I feel kind of spoiled that I got to make something in a very uncompromised way and I got to do that because I was on like a big tv show and could spend those years making it the way I wanted to and didn't have to like trade vision for money.

1:26:28And I feel wary of, you know, I don't want to do something I don't love, but life is, you know, expensive. So I do, I have questions about that. So you will continue to kill is what you're saying? I will kill and I will be in Jurassic Park once they invite me and direct it and write it. It sounds great. I look forward to that. I found it so bad. I actually cannot fathom that. But they have one out now. And so that is probably the one that they should have made because they did. I watched Jurassic Park recently, the first one. And I was like, this is a really good movie with the orb, the golden amber stuff.

1:27:18I was like, I get this. This is cool. It's fantastic. Yeah. The first one is great. Everything after that, you know, debatable. I don't know because I have not seen it yet, but I will due to what we're talking about. You have a lot of research to do before you get that gig. I wish you well. Ava, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers. It's over? It's about to be. Well, I mean, if you want to keep going, we can, but I feel like I'm boring you. I'm getting you into like metatextual questions now. And, you know, you're like, got to think about them and think about your life. We do end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen.

1:27:57And it does seem like you watch a lot of movies. I might need my phone. Oh. Are you going to Letterboxd? What are you doing? Yeah. Great. No, I fucking love Letterboxd. Well, I don't know if I want to say that. Say what? Okay, I'll say this. Like two days ago, I saw 28 years later in the theater. It's so motherfucking good. And I cried in a way that I have not cried at a movie in since. Twisters. We cry a lot. And that movie is so good. Jodie Comer is so good. And I think it's Aaron Taylor. johnson i want to say that's correct that's work to date and he's very good in it and i was very moved by the story and many of the visuals and i liked the score i thought it was sick and i liked that they weren't apologetic oh sinners too okay since sinners i didn't cry sinners but i felt a lot of stuff so i guess that's all i have to say those are my two favorite movies of the year so good on you so good yeah they're both so good mine and and yours yes well i wasn't going to say that to your face right well don't mind it i will definitely pry and ask if it is no it is i mean honestly sinners sinners got me good and i didn't even know anything going into it which was cool it's the best way to see it oh and basically everything you're a person of taste um i want to say because i said 28 years later in sinners which are the two top movies of the whole entire year well you know the truth is the truth that's how i feel about these things the people are right and um and you're right congratulations on your first film um i think it's really good and i i'm i can't wait to see what you do next thank you thank you so much this was so nice thanks to ava victor thanks to cr thanks to our producer jack sanders for his work on this episode.

1:30:09We'll see you later this week for a very patriotic episode of 25 for 25. Number 16 should be fun. We'll see you then.