‘Materialists’ and the Top Five Movie Love Triangles. Plus: ‘The Life of Chuck,’ With Mike Flanagan.

26:50Check out Jam Session. How many products does he have? He had at least four to show and then I had to follow up about sunscreen. Are you wearing sunscreen? There's SPF in my moisturizer, but that's the only thing I put on every day. Okay, that's good. That's good. Little dime of moisturizer. That's it. SPF. There you go. I got a lot of sunburn at Disneyland and Legoland last week. I got to tell you. Let's go back to Zoe Winters. Okay. That scene's really funny where they're talking about how she's kind of unspectacularly fine. Right. But that character becomes tragic because as the story goes on, she's in her attempts to kind of find someone anyone who will click with this woman he sets her up with this guy mark p and it turns out that mark p is uh number one voiced um never seen and voiced only uh voiced by john magaro instantaneously recognizable yeah and i was um i got to see this movie uh with rob mahoney and uh joanna robinson which was really fun and the moment you heard his voice.

27:51Joanne was like, oh, it's John McGarrow. You know, it was just a very exciting and then the movie went on. Would you like to share what happens from there? Unfortunately, this is not the John McGarrow of past lives. This is the Mark P of materialists and he assaults Zoe Winters' character on their date when she goes to the bathroom. And Lucy, while she's kind of entrenched in this relationship with Pedro Pascal's character and she's trying to figure out who she is she eagerly like seeks out lucy's approval on mark doesn't hear back from him or doesn't hear back from her she calls mark we hear don mcgarro's voice he's like yeah it was like it was a good i think i would see her again i don't know if it'll be serious and immediately we're like okay something's wrong here yeah and we learned that he has assaulted her from her boss played by marion ireland how wonderful to see marion ireland not in a terrible horror movie um i'm used to seeing her having her eyes gouged out by a demon and in this case she's just a boss yes um Um, so, you know, Zoe Winters' character decides to sue the matchmaking service that Lucy works for.

28:55And then this sends Lucy into a kind of a tailspin of like, is what I'm doing wrong? Right. Is everything about my life wrong? What is love? Is this pointless? Is this hopeless? And that I would say even more so than the will she pick him or will she pick him feels like the narrative thrust of the movie. I'm not sure that I ultimately got to the conclusion of that feeling though. like is by choosing the person that she chooses and we can get into chris evans momentarily um does that answer the crisis that she's having in the second act of this movie well then i think the film thinks it does i i i don't think this is handled particularly well um and i like i think it's valid to open up all the questions and like what am i doing and and and is everything wrong but the resolution and again spoilers um is that after not being in touch the zoe winters character calls dakota johnson because the you know faceless mark p mark p is outside her apartment um and she's terrified and like doesn't know who else to call or to help her so lucy answers the call goes with chris evan like helps you know helps her get a restraining order um but you know which is which is all good but then in the movie it's like that event is what leads her to really you know reconcile uh like aaron best and chris evans and there's a little bit of like implied cause and effect of like oh this person had to be assaulted in order for you to like choose love that was maybe not even intended but to me doesn't it didn't sit right i i think that that is definitely a little bit messy the when i was watching it what i struggled with was just a very simple straining of credulity around why would this woman call Lucy?

31:01She literally says on the phone, I don't have any friends in the city. Right. I'm like, why do you live in the city? What do you even, what? You don't know anybody except this woman whose company you're suing? This is the only person who can come and help you in this moment of need? Yeah. That just seemed pretty crazy. I mean. Just like a gaping plot hole where I was like, huh, you just took me out of the movie by saying that out loud. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, that's all valid. I mean, then that, you know, they raced back from the event. At the site of your wedding. Yeah, at the site of my wedding.

31:30And then... What town was that in? So, I don't remember. I remember what the event... No, your wedding. No, I know. You don't know the name of the town that you were married in? No, because it wasn't even a town. It was called... Handsome Hollow is the event space. Shout out Kate, who runs Handsome Hollow, did an amazing job. No free ads. Yeah, no free ads. Wow. But, I don't know, it was like Western Catskills? Okay. Sort of, remember? I mean you were there but you stayed in the Airbnb next door so you didn't have to do anything yeah that was awesome yeah that was nice that was a fun wedding very fun wedding but that that she would like immediately be led into you know I had like security concerns I'm like why are you buzzing this random person into your home if there's someone else outside you know what I mean and then you're just like gonna hang outside on the stoop and make moony eyes at Chris Evans I don't know I thought the movie was, if not tight, I found it to be very controlled all the way up until they went up to the wedding.

32:29Yeah. Upstate. And then the movie kind of gets a little bit loose in how it kind of wraps itself up. And it's hard because this is a framework that, if it's not Jane Austen, it's Hollywood convention is our expectation. And it wants to subvert it, but it knows that it can't because we've already set up this Chris Evans character in the way that we have. So let's just talk about Chris Evans quickly. Yeah. It's been taking an absolute beating on this podcast for about two years. From you. From me. I, I, I, It's because I believe in him and I really want better for him and I really like him. And I see him.

32:57I've seen him in a couple of interviews with Dakota Johnson for this press tour. And I'm like, he's clearly like a cool, smart guy. It's kind of a simple guy. Yeah. Which is okay. Do you see the clip of their non-negotiables for dating IRL? So his is, and literally must love dogs. I don't know if he knows that that's a 2000 and something film. He's just a bro. Yeah. Must love dogs. And then Dakota Johnson's is like, don't be an asshole, which was live on the Today Show. so then she gets in a little trouble. Okay. Yeah. Good rule though. All right. Yeah. I think his character in this movie is fine.

33:31I think his performance is very good. I think it really utilizes his charms very well which is that he's this incredibly handsome guy but has like a little like a little low hum of loser energy that he can access and part of why I have not enjoyed him in movies in the last few years is because he keeps taking parts where he's like I'm the hero and it's really boring and he was a good Captain America because he's like the wimp at the beginning of the movie and then he utilizes his Evans-ness to become a superhero. I agree. I think that he, and I like Dakota Johnson, I like Pedro Pascal, I'm sorry, but in contrast to the other two, he is very emotionally forward.

34:13Yes. And there are a lot of shots of him not saying anything and just giving sort of the longing puppy dogs stare and it works. every time. Totally agree. He's so good at it. And I like, can't, I respond and just kind of swoon to it. And so, you know, and in some ways that's in the text, right? Because he is the emotional choice versus Harry, the Pedro Pascal character who is the financial choice. But you know, movies are an emotional medium in this. And so you do find yourself responding. He's wonderful. Yeah. I think the movie is very intentionally not letting you really get too close to Harry, but it kind of hurts the movie because you never feel like it's ever going to be Harry.

34:51at any time when you're watching it. So that desire that you want when you're watching a movie like this to kind of figure out where our hero, our star, our lead is leaning never really exists because when she's shooting Chris Evans sitting on the ground outside of a bodega on the phone, you're like, God, I hope he gets what he wants. Gosh, he's a portal of empathy. She shoots his apartment really well. It's so gross and so familiar. Yeah, we've been there. I mean, oh. I'm so happy to be not living in New York City. I'm so glad to no longer be dating men with roommates. Did you ever date a guy who lived in Sunset Park?

35:30Apparently that's where he lived. No. Although I think, I mean, Zach was like South, South Park slow. He was. He was in Greenpoint when he and I became friends. But by the time I met him, no roommates. So that was good. Yeah. Yeah. He had a nice apartment. I liked his apartment. Yeah. I think that Evans is good in this. He obviously has less to do and is less of the focus of the movie. I certainly feel like I've also seen that absolutely terrible off-Broadway play he was performing in a couple of times in a warehouse somewhere on the outskirts of Brooklyn. That just feels like a world that she really knows and a person that she really knows.

36:06And that was part of what I was responding to, that it was just like a little bit more lived in, a little bit more naturalized as opposed to this sort of, I can feel her moving the chess pieces a little bit with Dakota Johnson and Harry and the private equity world. And let's talk briefly about the Harry character. There's a big reveal about this character, which I think is actually cool. I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, and it was funny. It was funny in, I was in a packed screening because there's real anticipation for this movie. And it was like funny to clock everyone realizing in real time.

36:37And as soon as I saw one, I was like, oh, of course. Yes. Because it's, you know, Chekhov's like height surgery is too weird. Earlier in the film, there's a discussion about the fact between Dasha's character and Lucy about how men can have a surgery to lengthen their legs and become taller. Yeah. And this movie is very interested in the idea of what height means to a man. Yeah. And in many ways, height as like their financial, literally their capital. It's a status builder, for sure. Which I think is pretty true. So, you know. Yeah, I guess so. It is. It's just, like, I'm sorry to say. And anyway, so it is revealed that Harry, the Pedro Pascal character, has in fact had this height surgery.

37:28Six inches, he says. And there is one fantastic shot at the end of that scene where he, like, crouches down. And it, you know, kind of pulls back and wide. And you see how much shorter than that. And it's like very effective. This conversation in the kitchen, when it becomes clear that they're not going to be together, that Lucy has made the choice that she can't be with him because she doesn't love him. And she knows that he doesn't love her, but that they have come to this conclusion that they should be together was the most James L. Brooks to me in the movie. This was the closest I thought, because it felt very true.

38:01And it felt like where she's driving the whole time where she's like, I know I'm getting to this scene where they need to have this conversation. and she had landed on this idea of lengthening your legs as that being like a checkable box and this being his his fatal flaw his achilles heel his like his ancient wound right he's a short guy yeah and he's got short guy energy and he can't get around it yeah and that being a psychological blocker me i couldn't relate you know it's not something i understand you have tall guy privilege and you walk around it with every day i do really i do what must that be like at it.

38:35I don't know. Congratulations. But I thought it was really clever. I like this part of the reveal. I like that this is how they kind of broke them up. Yeah, and it was fun. People gasped in the screening, which was pretty funny. And as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh, all right. This is clever. It was good. Yeah. No, it was good. One other thing I want to note is I love the music in this movie. So good. Incredible needle drops, like really tasteful in my brain needle drops. Cat Power, Harry Nilsson. There's a Daniel Pemberton score that is very elegant and subtle and doesn't overdo it. The music, I think, is the thing that immediately clued me into what kind of a movie it is.

39:11As soon as you get that kind of wide shot in New York of people, the crowds moving down the city streets and you hear the Cat Power Manhattan needle drop, I was like, oh, this is like a Mike Nichols movie. This isn't a Nora Ephron movie. You know what I mean? There's just something different energy-wise. And I'm ultimately grateful for that. I wish the story was told a little bit differently. And I, who's a different, who's an actress who would be better in this part? Who's an actor who would be better against Dakota Johnson? It's like a rude thing to do, but I couldn't, watching it, I couldn't help but try to get my head around who would be more engaging as a dramatic performer.

39:49Because there's this, there's a great moment in the movie where we've just seen John's performance of his play. They go to a dingy Brooklyn bar afterwards. Harry in his like rich guy, sort of dressed down outfit, But Lucy, being supportive of John, Lucy and John are having a conversation at the bar and they're talking about acting. And she says, I always love to watch you act. And then Lucy's character says, I was never any good at it. I don't know how to talk. I don't know how to stand. And I was in my deepest mind was like, is Celine's song, is she making fun of Dakota Johnson? Is she making fun of me thinking this about Dakota Johnson?

40:26Is Dakota Johnson being self-aware about some of the feelings about her kind of like affectless distance as a performer. Yeah. I don't know, but it was unmistakable that scene is in the movie where she's been, her character's like, I can't act. Yeah. Which is something I've been saying about her for five years. She does have incredible presence though. I agree. I'm trying to think of what actor could really, I mean, the answer to your question is Jennifer Lawrence, you know, which is the answer for every single under, you know, 30 to 35. Yeah. That would be interesting. I used to think she couldn't do this kind of thing but now I think she can I mean she can she's all emotion you know do you think they went to her maybe seems possible who is the man is the question for me what if it was Brad Cooper oh wow I could see it a little older yeah yeah yeah needs to make a move That's a good one.

41:30Okay. It's good. Yeah, it's right there. What could have been? I like Chris Evans where he is. I think there are some people who are listening right now who are like, Pedro Pascal is my favorite actor. And they're very upset with you. Well, that's, you know, what's new? We've talked about how we talked about in the 35 over 35 episode how this is a big summer for him. Yes. You know that he's got this movie and soon Eddington and then Fantastic Four First Steps. so you think he's 0 for 1 thus far in his quest to become a big star I think he's miscast the same way that you think Dakota Johnson is miscast he has presence and I've liked him in other things and I am going to see both of those films yeah I definitely like him more than you yeah I don't know if he's perfect for this movie but I like I like being with him in movies and TV I think I do too I just think that he's wrong in this part you know I was going to ask this about the next movie that we're going to do but does this movie have any like awards chance i don't really think so but i it's not like an original screenplay nomination out there possibly like what if there could be a hit yeah and i'm i know i was out last night and like two separate people who have babysitters lined up to go on date night to see this movie opening weekend so i think there is like a core group of people who are excited about it and maybe people will respond differently than so far at least the critical response is I would say soft positive yeah but like with heavy notes which is what we just did Jack is this like high on your radar very high I reached out to Amanda to try to see it early unfortunately timing didn't allow it because I was in Colorado but yeah I mean Past Lives was a huge movie for my girlfriend and I okay yeah I guess how'd you guys meet are you willing to share that on the podcast sure I'm willing to share that in high school my girl best friend went to a camp called Girl State they actually made a documentary yeah yeah yeah Of course.

43:20Sure. They met there because my girlfriend now was roommates with a girl who went to high school with my best friend. And they met and clicked because they thought the whole thing was incredibly ridiculous. Okay. Great. And then this was during the senior year of high school. So over the summer, lots of grad parties. And we just met at grad parties. Okay. So through people. Yes. All right. And also you're dating a girl's date alone. That is true. That's pretty rad. That's fascinating. Yeah. Maybe we'll get into that in the future, Jack. Yeah. So no Oscar stuff. But we think this is going to be like kind of a mid-level hit.

43:54I think in this screenplay mix, maybe. I'm excited about, you know, this is now the third movie in a row that Justin Kuritskis and the Celine Song Union has created about love triangles. A guy from the past versus a more, you know, practical, modern choice. Yeah. What's going on there? I also noted it as when we left. What's happening? I don't know. You know. right what you know yeah how many times can you write it how many times can you explore this honestly here's the thing though are we because we are we gonna do our top five yes like because we'll watch it every single time so i think it's great i think if you're as good a writer as those two then absolutely i mean the thing that's interesting to me about celine's song is that like so she was also a matchmaker in in addition to having like this long lost because past lies was also pretty autobiographical as i understood so i mean she just seems like she's living a cooler life than me.

44:51Well, her other thing is when she was on the show a couple years ago, by the way, great guest. If you didn't listen to that one, if you've seen Past Lives since then, I encourage you to go back. She was such a cool person to talk to. But she was like, what I really want to do is write a movie about poker. I'm really into poker. And I was like, you are the coolest person I've ever met. So yeah, she's great. What are we doing? Okay, movie love triangles. Now, just quickly, do you see this as a love triangle, this movie? Like in the classical sense? I mean, it's a who should she choose? Okay. which is sort of the setup.

45:22And yeah, so yes. Okay. Let's do our list. We share a number one. Yeah. And it's come up already. But let's, number five, go ahead. Past Lives. Yeah. Really, really great. Don't forget. And I also just really did want to point out that this is, there's a continuous theme here in Celine Song's movies and also her husband's work. Her husband is a very nice guy also, by the way. And a good interview on this show. Also a guest of this show. I did she did she choose correctly in that film in past lives yeah yeah I think so okay it's a tough one my number five is Fight Club I think this is really funny I don't think I really understood until somewhat recently yeah that that's what this movie is really about it's like should I decide to be in a committed relationship or not And if I don't, should I be an agent of anarchy?

46:19Which is just a really, you know, when you're 17, you don't get, all you can get is the angst. All you can get is the why is the consumerist, you know, nightmare world this way. But this is, should I just decide to put a ring on that girl's finger? Right. You know, that girl who loves to go to meetings about colon cancer. And I think it's very funny to view it through that lens. Okay. What's your number four? Another recent topic on this show. something's got to give which i did kind of approach this exercise in under the uh thought umbrella of what are my most like oh maybe she should have chosen the other guy movies of all time because that is like the success of a love triangle in some ways that both are like real candidates yes uh so obviously keanu reeves the faceless hamptons doctor who you insulted on this podcast and too i just she's not a real person i know yeah but it is like a real well, can we, can, it's, it's powerful.

47:16We'd all like to have sex with that guy. There's no question about it. But also. Beyond that, what is going on with that guy? Don't you think he would have a nice life with him? He's a doctor in the Hamptons and he likes plays. And Paris. He just is not real. I don't know what to say. He's just a complete fantasy written by a brilliant middle-aged woman. And you know, no disrespect to her. We all, I'd love to encounter, what is my version of Keanu Reeves wandering into my life out of nowhere you know like we all have that thing and I respect that she created that thing it's a great pick my number 4 is Burning which is a 2018 Lee Chong Dong movie South Korean film about a guy who gets entrenched in a very complicated world driven by kind of like trickster devil figure played by Stephen and it's like it's a little bit unclear like how much of it is actually a love triangle but the movie is very good at focusing in on like when you're competing against another guy and the other guy just has moves that you don't have yeah and you can see the woman responding to the other guy and you're spending time together the three of you not all of these movies are about like we're all together at the same time in fact they're never together at the same time but there's a there's that there's a famous scene in this movie where they get high and they're sort of standing outside and they're like looking up at the sky and you can see that uh you know yu yin and jung jung so and steven yun like have this very fraught chemistry together and the movie popped into my mind immediately when i was thinking of this idea so that's burning that's good one okay number three for you reality bites an absolute classic and also a real you know a marker of your own age and your own view of the world because in your 20s obviously ethan hawk is the choice and then you get to your 30s you get to your like lucy materialist phase and you're just like well ben stiller has a job and a car and he like shows up when he says he does and like the editing wasn't that bad sometimes you do kind of need an editor you know and then now that i'm in my 40s i'm back to it's you got to do ethan hawk again interesting yeah which is like a new So you had a time where you were into Ben Stiller?

49:39Not into it. I was just kind of like, that is like the obvious choice. I see. That's the practical choice. Okay. You know, if you have your Lucy materialist. It's interesting though, because you are not interested in someone that I would say is artless. There is an artlessness to Stiller's character. He, of course, directed the movie, which is very funny that he cast himself in that part. Okay. That's cool. It's good to know. so you're back on your back on your hawk bullshit yeah of course yeah stay tuned to this podcast yeah exactly in case you want to hear more about that my number three is being John Malkovich not a lot of movies two women and one man that's true and increasingly fewer movies about two women who want to be together right instead of with the man yeah a different kind of construct but in this case one of the women needs to go inside the body of a man is this a quadrangle or is John Cusack just fully cucked out and doesn't have any participation so it's only between John Malkovich's body Charlize Theron's excuse me Cameron Diaz's soul yeah and Catherine Keener's verve desire right I don't know I you know I think John Cusack is on the outside looking in so it is it is a proper triangle I think it counts okay being John Malkovich's three what's your number two Philadelphia story the original the blueprint for every single one of these.

51:06OG. Featuring Katharine Hepburn, Cary Grant, and Jimmy Stewart. And then just like fighting each other while she laughs. An iconic film. Also iconic, Casablanca. I'm glad you did this one. I was like, I can't do Casablanca because I always do it. I was surprised it would be an incomplete list without Casablanca. Another interesting question of did she pick right? I famously discussed is When Harry Met Sally. That's right. Another movie that is referenced in Materialist, like pretty explicitly. It is. And you know, in our doc, you noted that like it uses that tool of into camera like dating stories.

51:41Dating stuff. Which is a really good point. I think the thing that I found to be so different from when Harry met Sally versus this movie is anytime Billy Crystal talks in that movie, it's funny. Sure. He basically always has a line throughout the entire film. Yeah. And materialist doesn't work that way. It's like not, none of these actors are really like, Chris Evans is kind of funny, but he doesn't have a funny part. Right. So even though it's using the tools. It's not a comedy. But in the same way that just like When Harry Met Sally is a foundational text of people falling in love on screen and the different ways that you can do it.

52:15It is definitely intentionally referenced. Okay. I agree with you. What's our number one? We share our number one. Broadcast News. Obviously. Yeah. And, you know, I guess it's telling that our number one is the one where she picks herself. No one. That's the whole point. That is why that movie is such a magical. Is there any other women that do that? I mean, Kelly Taylor later on on 90210. Yeah. Wow. That's quite a pull. And yeah, there are definitely some. Between Jason Priestley and Luke Perry? Okay, wow. Okay. Ultimately, she chooses each of them. Did you mistake me for Bill Simmons with the 90210 drop?

52:49Well, I mean, but Kelly Taylor choosing herself. I think I learned about Kelly Taylor choosing herself before I learned about. Sister Carrie. Yeah, no. The works of Theodore Dreiser and Edith Wharton? Well, sure, all of those things. But before I learned about broadcast news. Sure. Yeah, me too. What's Jenny Garth up to? You know, I'm so glad you asked. Have you noticed that she's sponsoring the stretch of the 134 right by our house? I swear to God, like the Adopt-A-Highway thing, it just says Jenny Garth. And every time I drive by, I'm like, I want to get a picture. It's just Jenny Garth. Just Jenny Garth, not her family.

53:24Like no context. It's just Jenny Garth. Should the big picture sponsor a stretch of highway? I guess we could. I just like, I'm driving always. So on the highway, so I can't. What stretch of highway would you want to sponsor? What's your favorite place to be stuck in traffic in Los Angeles? I mean, it would obviously be a stretch of the two for us. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That is by far my favorite highway. The only good highway in Los Angeles, in my opinion. The only one that isn't fucking destroyed at all times. Okay. This was a great exercise. We have another movie to talk about. We sure do. Refresh your good vibes from a TikTok.

53:59With the right vibes, it's... Oh man!

54:12...to...

54:16Now try the different Tic Tacs. From mint-y-fresh to fruit-y-sue-s. Tic Tac. Refresh your good vibes. I'm just gonna put this out there. I know that you're not going to like this movie. I'm okay with that, and I'm ready to discuss it with you. You did text me, and you said, I'm putting this movie that you'll probably hate on the schedule. So I didn't hate it. The movie is The Life of Chuck. Yes. I'm not sure that I would call it a movie. Let's explore that. But what I would just like to say, that parts of whatever it was that I saw were charming to me. Okay, I'm happy to hear you say that. I mean, most of it was, I disagree with, But, you know, I was charmed by.

54:58Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So The Life of Chuck is, as I said, written and directed by Mike Flanagan. It's based on a Stephen King novella, I guess, short story, basically, from his 2020 compilation, If It Bleeds. It stars Tom Hiddleston, Chiwetel Ejiofor, Karen Gillan, Mia Serra, Carl Lumley, Benjamin Pajak, Jacob Tremblay, and Mark Hamill. Who still cannot act. We can talk about that. it is ostensibly the story about a man named Chuck Krantz having an experience of life. That's kind of your very vague log line. It is a classical Castle Rock production Stephen King story in the mold of, well, I saw it a second time at the Vista, and they did the old trailers ahead of the movie.

55:50and the trailers that they showed were Stand By Me, The Shawshank Redemption and The Green Mile. I don't think that this movie has quite the kind of like canonical importance, especially of those first two. But tonally, there is a certain kind of Stephen King story or book that is different. Hearts of Atlantis is a version of this. That is different from It, Carrie, Salem's Lot, you know, the historic horrors that he has written over time. This one is pretty lofty and pretty unusual. And so even you even just saying, is this even a movie? I find really interesting. I actually asked Mike about that because this movie doesn't really have a protagonist.

56:30It has a nonlinear structure. It's unclear. And if you don't, if you want to see this movie and don't want to have anything spoiled for you, stop listening right now. For the record, I liked it. It's unclear if it's a death dream, if it's a memory, if it's an anecdote that is being retold. if it is just merely like a kind of a deathbed engagement psychologically. But it opens and I don't even know if you could describe it as reverse order because it's not a linear story. Well, it does say Act 3. It does. So it is trying to signal to you that we're starting at the end here instead of the beginning.

57:06It does. And Act 3 takes place in a world that is falling apart. It is the literal apocalypse. And we were with Chutel Ejifor's character. And he is a teacher. in a local school and natural disasters are occurring around the world and it's very clear that things are we're wrapping things up here on earth the internet is going down social services is falling apart doctors are walking out of hospitals and abandoning patients sinkholes are opening up yes the just natural life is unable to be explored this is a porn hub is down porn hub is down my favorite part of the movie david s mouchin's really great um the first act of this movie is my favorite part of the movie because as I was watching the movie and I never feel this way anymore because of the thousands of films I've seen I was like what the hell is going on I what where's Tom Hiddleston right what is this movie who is Chuck what is going and Chuck is you know communicated in this first act as just a person on a billboard that says I think it's like thanks for thanks Chuck for 39 great years 39 years yes and the characters in the in this section seemed to think he was like a bank employee of some kind who's having some sort of send off and then that image of him signing off starts appearing on television broadcasts you know on radio broadcasts he becomes it's clear that he is kind of the big brother of this world and we learn pretty quickly that he's the big brother because this is all happening in his head that this is like this is all collections of memories experiences people he's met things he thought he saw jammed together while he's ostensibly on his deathbed.

58:41Right. How quickly do we learn that? I think by the end of the first act. Yes. Yeah. But not like in the first 10 minutes. It's more like 45 minutes. I wanted to ask you how long it took you to kind of figure out what was going on here. I think once they flashed back to Tom Hiddleston on a deathbed, I was like, oh, but before that I did not really know at all. and I just knew that it was like one of the fanciful Stephen King things so I was like well I guess anything could happen I thought part one was pretty effective well most of it it was the most emotional I was stressed out I thought the like evocation of the way the world was falling apart and how they were learning about it and how Chiwetel Ejiofor in particular was thinking about it was upsetting and effective I agree he's such a good actor and his i mean he's just like me for real you know watching tcm at night drinking whiskey trying to make sure trying to like pretend everything's fine it was very relatable um karen gillen another actress i like who plays his ex and he's they're sort of like seeking each other out and then we come to see that maybe she represents another person that chuck encountered in his life at a certain point but maybe it's like a distortion right right you know like and so So seeing the film a second time, you can see that all of these figures that we meet in this first part represent these little scraps of experience of Chuck's life.

1:00:11And one of the reasons why I think it's so effective is I completely agree for a low budget independent movie to render the world falling apart in very subtle and small ways. There's no CGI in this movie. There's no. There's a little bit at the very end of part one and it doesn't look that good, but that's okay. For the most part, it's not relying on your kind of like epic Dean Devlin style disaster movie. So I like a lot of that stuff. the film does have narration. Yeah. So I'm not typically a fan of narration in films. I'm willing to make exceptions. Nick Offerman reads the narration. Much of it is pulled directly from the story.

1:00:50Yes. I wanted to ask you if you think this movie is better if you simply remove the narration. 1 ,000%. A disastrous choice, in my opinion. And it's not just like here and there, voiceover. He is reading long chucks. It is verging on audiobook. I was so angry. And I also started dissociating at some point. I mean, it's not how I, I'm not an audio book person. I am a, I'm a visual learner. So at some point I was like, please stop talking. I'm not even hearing you anymore, you know? And I thought, I understand that it's based on a Stephen King text, but it was doing a lot of telling of the feelings that the movie was, and the actors were doing a much better job showing.

1:01:38I kind of agree. There are a lot of times where you hear his voice and I'm like, you don't have to tell me this. Yeah. And it just goes on and on and on. I think I would have been more on board with it if he merely was setting up each chapter for 30 seconds. Sure. Of course. The way that you get into a new chapter of a book and you can almost feel the narrator guiding you into this new section. Yeah. You know, when you're like, if you're shifting perspectives in a Franzen novel, right? You're like, oh, now we're over here three years ago with these other people in this family. Right, right, right.

1:02:06That would have made sense to me. I think there is just like a real overemphasis on it, especially in the final act. We can get to that. The other thing that was just kind of gnawing at me a little bit was that there's this great movie. It's such a beautiful day that Don Hertzfeld, the animator made some years ago. It was like a collection of three shorter films that he had made. He put them together. And Hertzfeld, the animator who does everything, draws everything, also narrates the movie. And his voice is really close to Nick Offerman's voice. So I was like, has Mike Flanagan seen this? is this like an homage is it an accidental closeness because that also is a film about like someone's life coming apart and mortality anyway the narration just I would add on really just like heightened like the TV-ness of the filmmaking a little bit for me both you know more reliant on words and story but you know it's clearly shot on like some like weird mall in Vancouver and there's an artificial quality to some of the sets right and it just and it feels a little Netflix-y which I you know and so and I just can I tell you something seeing it on a struck print at the Vista looked a lot better than seeing it on digital in a screening room I'm sure that that's true but I think I do think that the fact that there was just the narration went on and on and on and so also you're having to like pair images to it that felt a little bit filler because you're trying to serve the words instead of the image that it just, it stuck out to me.

1:03:42I hear what you're saying. The second act is basically like a reverie about Chuck having one magical moment where he encounters a busker on the street in what looks like a fake version of the Santa Monica Pier, I guess? The 8th Street Promenade? No, that's like the Vancouver Mall that I was talking about. It's like an open mall or something. But do they say where it's supposed to be? That's what I was kind of getting at. No. Okay. and he encounters this busker a woman playing drums and he breaks out into dance yeah and it's kind of an extended Gene Kelly homage he eventually has a dance partner yeah a redheaded woman much like Karen Gillan is redheaded and that's it they dance they create movie magic for five minutes it's like the majority of Tom Hiddleston's screen time yes he doesn't have a lot of dialogue they were reflect on why they danced with the busker afterwards and they split the money between them that they earned because they've drawn this incredible crowd because of this amazing dance that they perform.

1:04:41But that's really it. There is a very interesting moment at the end when Hiddleston and the redhead kind of part ways and Hiddleston has sort of, he's had a couple of moments of like gentle physical distress where he's kind of like clutching his head and you can see he's like having a bit of a spell or an episode. And I think this is kind of indicating to us like he has cancer. something's wrong he doesn't know what it is. The narration has let us know. Yes. Yeah that's happening. A thing I wish they hadn't communicated. Right. And then in the background I don't know if you clock well you see certainly the girl on roller skates who appears in the first sequence and then I noticed that the other nurse that Karen Gillan worked with was sitting at a table.

1:05:19Yes was sitting at a table. Sure. And there are all these people that you can see okay all of this is like little these little strands of his life that are being pulled into his experience. Did you think that that sequence was meant to be something that actually happened or a memory that was distorted of a day that could have been. I couldn't quite determine how we're meant to understand that. I didn't think that hard about it, to be honest. I honestly, it didn't, so I guess it didn't engage me in that level. I will say I was incredibly charged by it. It's really good. Yeah, listen, get people dancing on screen.

1:05:52I was like, oh, so this is why it won the audience award at Toronto. Yes. It's great. It's a happy making moment in the movie and a movie that is otherwise is like full of Walt Whitman and you know exploration of sadness. And the world ending. Yes. In plausible ways. I like this part too. Act one it loses me a little bit. Yeah. Because I think because it is protracted and it is defined by a lot of that narration and then you've got these long stretches of time transpiring where the Chuck character is going from like seven to eleven and he's spending a lot of time with his grandparents because we learned that his parents have died in a car crash.

1:06:30His mother was pregnant with a little girl when they died. And a lot of time is spent with Mia Sarah and Mark Hamill who play his grandparents. Mia Sarah, film icon. Yeah. Truly a magical force in movies that I think has only appeared in four films. It was really nice to see her. As beautiful as ever. People, you know, listeners may know her from Ferris Bueller's Day Off or from, oh my God, what's the other one that I'm forgetting? We were just talking about this on the Tom Cruise movie. A legend. and I thought she was very good in this movie. Mark Hamill... I can't. Mark Hamill, you know, is an obsession amongst multiple generations of people.

1:07:13There are certainly the Bill Simmons, Amanda Dobbins school people that think Mark Hamill can't act, right? There are other people who think that Mark Hamill has kind of settled into grouch par excellence. You know, like, that's kind of what he does. He has a very craggy voice. he's a very famous voice actor now for years he voiced the Joker on the Batman animated series that's like one of his most famous performances now in his career he plays a drunken account grandpa in this movie and when Mia Serra's a drunken account grandpa yeah and you know to our point about math and the balance between love and the stars and the cold hard facts of decision making in materialists this is where these two movies kind of come and meet and the same ways they kind of like don't quite finish to me.

1:08:02This movie is, I wrote down that it's very wet. Some movies are dry. Okay. You know? Yeah. You know what I mean? Steve Jobs, the movie Steve Jobs, that movie is dry. Yes. It's quick. It's got pace. Yeah. It barely catches its breath. It's smooth. Everything flies. is this movie sits in its feelings and it's really soggy. It has so many of them. Yeah. Yeah. In every direction. And it wants you to cry and you might cry. I didn't, but it did elicit emotional reaction for me and not just like anger that Nick Offerman wouldn't stop talking. But it does, it has that pull. It gets you in certain places.

1:08:43Both the cataclysmic stuff at the beginning and the dancing. There is another dance sequence. And, you know, despite myself. You enjoyed it. Of course I did. Well, we learn in this final sequence that Mia Sara's character introduces Chuck to classic movie musicals. Which is why we see at the beginning of the movie Chiwetel Ejiofor watching the 1941 movie Cover Girl. Great Gene Kelly, Rita Hayworth movie. Rita Hayworth, a redhead. And that movie kind of like pops up at the beginning of the movie. we see that that is it is the least known of the all time classics in the blockbuster stack in this movie which I think includes West Side Story Singing in the Rain Singing in the Rain All That Jazz Yes and Cabaret Yes and then the fifth film that they watch is Cover Girl is Cover Girl and we see that Nia Sera's character teaches Chuck how to dance he's pretty good at dancing and that is kind of his superpower when he goes to middle school Right and how he gets the attention of girls Right and how he can kind of be his best self So that maybe he can see the future or he at least knows the dances ahead of time.

1:09:51Yes, which then plays a part in the end of the movie. And he invents the moonwalk. Is it that he invents it or that he's just copying what he's seen? That was my impression. Well, but... You think he invents it? Well, they have never seen it before. So I think that he has some sort of like future dance site. I hadn't considered this. Well, I mean, the Mark Hamill character has some sort of future site. He does. He does. I think, and it is like when they're doing the dances. But I didn't know it applied to dance. I thought it just applied to death. Like the first dance scene, the dance class, he knows every single dance, like instinctively.

1:10:28That's how they present it. It's true. And it does seem like this is the 80s. It seems like it is pre-Moonwalk. And they're all like, what are you doing? So you think this movie is minority report for dancing? I mean. It's a good take. there are worse interpretations it's a really good take I think I just agreed to let this movie have me yeah you know and I think you have to do that to enjoy it and I think it will have a it'll be really divisive and I think people are gonna be like this is treacle crap and other people are gonna say no movie touched me more than this one this year I think you know it's like a lot of things with us we constantly are talking on the show about like films about children that You just have a different relationship to it now because of the stage of your life that you're in.

1:11:17Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've been through anything that this movie is trying to get at, you're just probably going to be a little bit more sentimentally open to the earnestness that it is attempting. Right. Or also if you're, I mean, you're a Stephen King nerd. And so you're like, you are very open to this style of storytelling. I am. and this strain of sentimentality and this sort of like unexplained supernatural but it all works out. Yeah. This is the metaphysical strain. Or it doesn't work out but you know we all feel our feelings together. Mm-hmm. So so I think it's totally valid. I think it's also very you know Flanagan is really interesting.

1:11:58It's very much a part of his mission. This is really like in some ways maybe a movie that explains his mission. Now he makes he's made some really gnarly horror movies but most of those movies I find are about the distance between people like our inability to connect Gerald's Game is a movie that he made that is also a Stephen King adaptation about a woman who becomes like who's having a sexual sort of BDSM moment with her husband in the movie it's Bruce Greenwood and Carla Gugino and he handcuffs her to the bed and then he has a heart attack and dies and she's handcuffed to the bed and she can't move She can't get out.

1:12:39And then it's sort of like everything that goes on in her mind as she thinks back on their relationship, her life. She has this kind of like cosmic LSD style trip through these feelings. And it is a movie that is about like connectivity and its loss. This is the same thing. So as a fan of his and as somebody, I don't really watch a lot of Netflix TV shows. I've watched all of his Netflix TV shows. I like his whole mission, his whole project. so I found myself more open minded there's like when there's a long sequence where horror icon Matthew Lillard shows up as like I guess like a local is he a construction worker he's his neighbor yeah Chiwetel Ejiofor's neighbor and he becomes this vessel for just like reciting facts about the end of the world yeah and when you're watching the movie you're like how does he know all this shit and why doesn't Chiwetel Ejiofor know any of this stuff how did this happen right but then you realize that this is like in your own mind you've got different spaces where different pockets of information exist and these people represent these different pockets of yourself.

1:13:40That's just like watching The Haunting of Hill House where in a family, like each person represents a different version, a different memory, a different experience of that family. So I think I'm very open to this movie in a way that some people won't be, which I understand. Why don't we have more dancing in movies? Well, I don't know. You don't want singing. Yeah, they didn't really sing in this. I know. It was great. It occurred to me while watching it, I was like, I think a man is going to like this because no one broke out into song. If they sang like good or inoffensive songs, it would be okay.

1:14:12I mean, as we have discussed, most new musicals. What's a good inoffensive song you want sung in a movie? I mean, I don't mind singing in the rain, you know? Make them laugh is okay. But only songs from older musicals? You don't want like espresso to be sung? Well, I think if the arrangement were okay, that that would be funny. but I don't really think I guess Mamma Mia when they're singing those songs that's part of the joke you still have not seen Mamma Mia right? I haven't seen Mamma Mia no I have to tell you something about that you just reminded me of something but I can't talk about it on the show what about if they just started singing Addison Rae songs?

1:14:51I haven't listened yet have you? I have yeah oh how are they? it's fine there's like a real crazy grade curve thing going on here where people are like oh this isn't bad an influencer made a pop album that's okay. Perhaps we should give it a nine out of ten. Just like, same old bullshit. I'm not that interested. I'm still with last year's pop girlies, you know? Okay, who are they? Sabrina Carpenter, Sabrina Chappell, Dua Lipa, Chappell Rohn, Taylor Swift, no. Dua Lipa, last summer's album didn't really pan out, but she's engaged. Did you see? To Callum Turner? I did, I did. Congratulations to those two really hot people.

1:15:28just a slab of meat. Who just seem incredibly in love. Two wonderful slabs of meat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She has a brain. She's got a great book club. So I've heard. Yeah. Can I? Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. This is important. This is actually important. This is really, this is, this is pure Amanda material. This is why we podcast. Is reading, just reading. Yeah. Just being into reading. Yeah. Does that make you smart? Um, I think. Because there's a new, you see the new paradigm. They're like, oh, Kaya Gerber. Yeah. Loves books. Listen. Dua Lipa loves books. I'm not saying they're not smart. Right.

1:15:58You're an avid reader. I know you're smart. That's true. But I do not. They read far more challenging material than I do at this point. Does that mean that? That's not true. Does that matter? Yeah. There's an ambition. To me, that's actually weirdly kind of sexist. People are like, oh, she reads books. She must be brilliant. I mean, it is sexist. I mean, you're totally right. But it's more that, like, I am continually like, wow, that seems pretty heavy. And I don't know if I feel like reading that about their book choices. Like there is like a seriousness and like a level of challenge to both the Kaia Gerber and the Dua Lipa.

1:16:36But that's because their work is frivolous. I don't think their work is frivolous. Okay. I think what Kaia Gerber does in Bottoms is very funny. Would you say it is deep in searching? Would you say it is about the human spirit? That's what this show is about. Hot girls have feelings too. Okay. And they deserve to be explored on screen. um lord knows i respect them i think i think that their reading indicates a curiosity that i admire okay um and also that i'm like not uh i just like i've like all the books i'm like well that seems really hard i'm gonna read another detective novel sorry uh has dua lipa read the life of chuck um i don't think so but i haven't either so i'm not one to cast uh you know judgment One thing that was tough was Charlie XCX on TikTok obviating the entire need for this podcast by making...

1:17:29By doing the final destination. Yeah, I send you the content and you did not realize. She's wearing a bikini. And I know she's wearing a bikini and so you were like a little distracted, but that's the point. You're supposed to engage with the whole picture. She's wearing a bikini, drinking a cocktail, talking about final destination. And it was like an FBI task force entrapment circumstance for me. I know, it was really, really good stuff. I was like, this is dangerous for me. Yeah. So, yeah. She's a Leo like us. No shit. She... We should just cancel the pod. Okay. Because I think... Should she host it?

1:18:02Charlie? Yeah. She's making a film now as well. I would love for her to come meet my co-host. Why don't you go on like a six-month vacation? It'll be me and Charlie. Oh, my God. I would love nothing more. Live from Tenants of the Trees. I didn't get to have my brat summer last year. We'll do it this year. That sounds fantastic. I'm very happy for you. quickly on Life of Chuck before we go to Flanagan it did win the Audience Award yeah but last year you know so then I think the Audience Award winner I think is it like 11 out of the last 13 have been nominated for Best Picture maybe more right but they all are either previously owned or get like and have a release plan in place or they get rushed out in the same calendar year if Anora didn't exist would this film have been nominated for Best Picture last year because one of the reasons why is because Neon was like, we got our contender.

1:18:54We don't need to put this movie out right now. I don't think so. With respect. Do you feel it's being buried in the awards race? If this was a November film, would it have done a little better? Maybe, but I don't know. I think a summer feel good. I think Neon knows what it's doing. Like a summer feel good movie. And then, you know, it won the Toronto. So everyone needs to go check it out. But I don't think it's actually seriously going to be in an Oscar race. So you don't have to put up the money for that. Do you think people are going to check it out? I don't know. There were like 10 other people in the theater with me.

1:19:35So on, you know, 11 a.m. on a Wednesday. So you saw a I saw a regular public screening. Yeah. OK. It's pretty limited release. Was everyone sobbing? No, I don't think anyone was crying. okay that's too bad yeah um any other thoughts how's everything else going in your life you're down for the advice episode on Monday I'm really really excited you know why well I don't want to I told you it's because it's Father's Day yeah no I appreciate that I really don't want to turn my Sunday over I do want it on record that like I still had an episode to prep for after Mother's Day is that true yeah I think so what was it uh I mean I I guess no I think it was Melancholia that we did the next day well okay it doesn't it was like a present yeah yeah yeah And maybe it was Tuesday.

1:20:18Maybe I didn't have to do any prep. Now that I'm. You think that you thought about it? I think that not only do I think I thought about it, I think I also thought about it in a selfish way because I had a very busy Mother's Day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was really not able to do any preparation. I'm scrolling back now. No, we did the mailbag the 10 a.m. after. Yeah. Did we? We did. I'm looking at the calendar. It's okay. A mailbag is like as low as like an advice. Maybe that's why we did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's thoughtful. Thank you so much. I don't even know if I did that on purpose Happy Father's Day You never said happy Mother's Day to me on the podcast I'm so sorry It's okay You're a great mother Thanks You're a great dad Thanks I feel bad that I didn't say it And your girl dad view of the world is really changing all of us So I thank you You're mocking me but it has changed me I know it has It's beautiful Completely Yeah I'm having an excellent time being a father recently She rules She's so great She's doing great She is extremely selfish is going to destroy everyone around her, but it's okay.

1:21:18So are both of my children at this point? The life of children, yes. Okay, should we go to my conversation with Mike Flanagan? Yes, absolutely. Okay, let's go to my conversation with Mike Flanagan.

1:21:31For the first time on the show, Mike Flanagan, very excited to speak with him today. Mike, I revisited Hush last night and I clocked the bookshelf of Stephen King novels, which I don't think I picked up on last time I saw it. And this is obviously not your first go-round with adapting Stephen's work. But did this one feel specifically different in any way? Oh, yeah. This one was very different for me from the start. I mean, when I first read the story, I thought it was different from anything I'd seen from Stephen King in a very long time. The structure was so unique, but the thing that struck me about it was this was a story, obviously not a horror story, but a story that didn't have an ounce of cynicism.

1:22:14to it at all. And that's just, I mean, I can count on one hand how many stories I've come across in my life that exist in that rarefied place of total earnestness. And so it was clear to me that my approach to it would have to be radically different from any of the other work I've done. But yeah, it's differences made it, I think, kind of irresistible to me. Do you talk to Stephen about these adaptations at all? Do you, like, you know ask permission to make changes how to how what is the process like oh yeah uh you know he steve has has an amazing perspective on this uh that he's grown over the years being adapted so much where he says the book is the book the movie is the movie the book is mine the movie is yours i will stay out of your way um and he believes and i think he's right that he can't lose in that equation because if the movie's terrible, people say the book is better.

1:23:11And if the movie's great, they say, of course it's great. It's based on a great book. And so he keeps a very respectful distance. That said, he has an enormous amount of approvals when it comes to cast and scripts. I've gotten to talk to him a few times leading up to an adaptation. The biggest one being the conversations around Dr. Sleep and around incorporating the Kubrick kind of cinematic language into that, knowing his feelings about that adaptation. With this one, I remember the first conversation we had about it, I said to him that I really believed if he trusted me with the material, it might be the best movie I'll ever make.

1:23:54And I had just gotten the rights to The Dark Tower at the time. And he said, I hear you. I think that sounds great. That story isn't an obvious adaptation to me. So I'm curious to hear how you'd approach it. But I think we should just focus on Dark Tower. He doesn't like you to have more than one thing because it means one thing isn't moving forward. And so with this one, I remember I sent him the script and he came back with no notes and was just like, go on, go make it. I can't wait to see how this works out. You made like a pretty dramatic choice though in the way that the story is structured.

1:24:32And I know that people have been doing this with King's work for a long time and making strong artistic choices against the framework of his stories. But are you nervous to share with him? Like, hey, I think it should be more like this instead of the way that you conceived of this story. oh i i thought i was i was uh with this one i i thought i was pretty uh pretty in the ballpark of what he did um you know i i i made some additions to it but i i kept his structure intact and and uh i changed this the least compared to dr sleep and gerald's game i guess would be how i would frame it do you see a delineation in the kinds of stories that he writes like this one feels very what i would describe as like castle rock entertainment You know, like in the mold of the films from that production company that had some relationship to his movies.

1:25:20Do you see like a bifurcation in any way? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely kind of the Steve who wrote, you know, Stand By Me, Shawshank, both Castle Rock, you're talking about. The Green Mile, you know, where he's really kind of letting the genre elements take a backseat to the human story he's telling. And then there's, you know, yeah, Steve contains multitudes, as do we all. So I definitely see the difference. I think, though, there's an incredible commonality to it in that Stephen King, regardless of whether he's doing Pet Sematary, which is one of the scariest and darkest stories I've ever read in my life, or Hearts in Atlantis, which is one of the most gentle.

1:26:08Both of them are about the decisions we make based out of love. And no matter how dark the story is, that is always kind of the engine. So I think one of the things that's amazing to me is to see how many different expressions of this idea, this humanism Stephen King is capable of creating. it makes it really exciting as a constant reader and as a fan of his to kind of never really know what we're in for but to only know that there's an emotional honesty to it that's going to kind of connect it to everything else so yeah I feel that I feel the distinctions that you're referring to for sure but I think as I've gotten older I zero in much more on the common threads kind of underneath them So for you as a filmmaker, why was this the right time in your life to adapt a story like this?

1:27:10I guess it's a pivot in some ways from the work that you've done previously in genre. Very much it is. I think the answer to that, there's always the crazy circumstances that have to come together for you to make any project. So there's a certain amount of that that's never in my control. but while what makes me very glad about the fact that I was able to do this movie when I was is that I've I've got three kids um they're 14 8 and 6 uh you know when I first read this it was 2020 April 2020 and the COVID lockdown was brand new and my kids were looking to me for some kind of answers and reassurance while I tried to pretend I wasn't utterly, utterly terrified of what was happening around me.

1:28:00And looking at them, wondering what kind of world they were going to inherit. That really touched on an incredible parental anxiety that I'd never felt before. But the story that Stephen King wrote also gave me an enormous amount of hope and gratitude. And so I think this movie came around at the right time in my life because my entire motive in trying to get it to the screen was that I wanted it to exist in the world for my kids when they hit that inevitable feeling that I had in 2020, that I have again now, that the world is coming off its wheels and that finding joy, connection, and love and optimism is more important than ever.

1:28:52So this just happened to coincide with a time when I don't know that it was ever more important to me to feel those things and to grab onto them myself for my kids. as a viewer there's another commonality with that period in time for me which is there's this i had not read the story before i saw the film and so there's just this tremendous disorientation that you feel through at least the first two acts of the movie yeah and you know it just the the way you've chosen to make it and being faithful to king's story this it's hard to tell whether it's a series of memories or dreams or visions or reveries or what what are we actually experiencing and the way that you've kind of like set us off balance for our movie watching expectation.

1:29:37Can you kind of talk about how you, the intentional choices that you made to keep us in, I assume that's the space you wanted us to be in, but how you actually were able to execute on that? Oh, absolutely. I had a similar feeling when I read the short story, you know, and we approach it a little differently in the movie, but I had felt reading it like I had been thrown face first into this reality that all the other characters had already caught up with and gone through the various stages of grief and acceptance. There's no context to that. And the thing is, that more than anything mirrors my experience of the world right now.

1:30:14The context that we are reaching for is coming from media we can't trust. It's coming from social media that contradicts itself, the idea of truth and of all these grounding forces that would help us orient ourselves in reality have all been ripped away or distorted. So I feel that way today. I feel that disorientation way too frequently. The idea for this was to plant the audience in that space of that chaos and gradually lead them to peace, to optimism, to hope through joy, you know, and through mourning and sadness too, where appropriate. You know, I think King balances those really well and we tried to replicate that.

1:31:08But the way we would approach it was, you know, actively avoiding getting into expository dialogue that would orient us, only offering a little bit. Every scene had a new piece of information about this world, but nobody had the whole picture. And by the time we kind of realize what might be happening, the world that we've been presented with is already ending. That feeling that time's too short, that you never really get your feet under you resonates with me a lot. The other thing that really sticks out to me when I think back on the movie is it doesn't really have a protagonist. It has a title character.

1:31:54Yeah. And it certainly has a through line in Chuck, but it's so unusual even beyond your traditional ensemble, like the series that you made for Netflix. There are big ensemble pieces and they have multiple characters. At times you're kind of clinging to just the idea of existence and experience throughout the movie rather than a person, which I found to be such a, just a cool choice. And I was wondering how you thought about that and just kind of maintaining a narrative film without having that thing to lean on that you often do. It was really fascinating to watch incredible actors come in and make an incredible impact in short bursts of time.

1:32:30Because you're right, there is no clear protagonist in this. You know, Chiwetel kind of is that protagonist in the beginning, but that gives way. And I think that's interesting because it speaks to the theme of the multitudes that we all contain. There's no one particular version of me that is the main one, that is the protagonist of my life. And I think we're all this kaleidoscope of different people. And we're informed by this kaleidoscope of different people. What I love about it is it gives the audience a chance to put themselves in the story more than trying to hang their identity on a particular character.

1:33:12Chuck's kept at a distance. You're right, he's the title character. But certainly not the protagonist, you know. Even though I think by the time Benjamin Pajak is on screen, it feels the closest to feeling like, oh, that's our protagonist. But he's not there for an hour, you know. This is a very interesting and very strange way to tell a story. Chuck is specific, but Chuck is also meant to be all of us. And we're meant not to be hanging on the events of his life so much as thinking about the events of ours. And withholding a clear protagonist allows us to do that. It allows us to immerse ourselves in these different vignette-y moments and start to experience it as the kaleidoscope it is.

1:33:58I think that's closest to how we experience life. Certainly not how we're taught to make movies. So it was completely uncharted territory for me and for the cast, but it was really incredibly rewarding for that. I found it uniquely engaging and I really liked how you executed on it. I wanted to ask you about the thin line between corniness and sincerity. Sure. And how do you tightrope walk it with material like this? Yeah, and that was something we knew going in was always going to be the tightrope, you know, that we would be walking and that ultimately we would never get a consensus on the other side of it because all of us are in a different place when it comes to that.

1:34:39The rule of thumb that I tried to embrace was to never be cynical, to never be dishonest, and to never try to make anyone feel anything. I had certain feelings reading the story. I was having emotional reactions, contemplating the story. It was important to me that the movie never tried to manipulate. And I think that's the big difference. With the Newton brothers, with the score, we talked about avoiding manipulative scores. I don't think there's a minor key in it because we didn't want to say this is sad, this is hopeful. We wanted a emotional optimism that carried us throughout, but whether it was death we're watching or whether it was, you know, a moment of pure innocence and joy, it was kind of operating on the same baseline.

1:35:27I think we live in a very cynical world and I can very easily understand how stories that are this earnest may not resonate with everyone. In a lot of ways, we have our guards up. We have to. There's a level of cynicism that's required to survive in this world. But it's so rare for me to, some of my favorite films I've seen through my life, these rare movies that don't have that cynicism. To be able to make something like that, I just felt like, if I ever felt like I was pushing it or lying or trying to force someone to feel something, then we were doing it wrong. It was really just about putting it out there as authentically and honestly as we could.

1:36:19Hiddleston approached it. I remember the word that leapt to my mind when I saw him come to set was that Tom approached it with incredible humility. And that, I think, was our North Star for this. I hope it resonates with people. historically films that do engage in that level of earnestness can certainly uh go both ways it's a brave act yeah to to be heartful in a movie in 2025 it is uh and and i i was grateful to see that that courage was uh was was brought to set every day by my cast because they're the ones they're the ones who sell it. You know, it was, I think, an incredibly brave story for Stephen King to include in this volume full of horrors, you know, with If It Bleeds, which is a wonderful collection.

1:37:11But this is very different. And so, yeah, it is a fine line. I hope we landed on the right side of it. That'll be up to the individual viewer. Mike, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? You're a cinephile. You're on Letterboxd. I know you are. The last great thing I saw was Ryan Coogler's Sinners. Tell me what you liked about it. I loved it so, so much. I saw it three times, twice in IMAX. And there are moments of pure genius in that movie. There's an incredible musical number that dropped my jaw in theater and reminded me why. I saw it in a sold-out theater in a large format, and it reminded me.

1:37:56I love these reminders that come along every so often about what makes that experience so profound and unique and different than the one you get at home or the one you get on streaming or the one you get even in a theater that isn't populated, you know. But yeah, that's the last great thing I saw. It really knocked me out. Great recommendation. Mike, I'm a big fan of your work. Thanks for doing the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time.

1:38:23Thanks to Mike Flanagan. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. On Monday, we are officially doing it. Confirmed. 9.30 a.m. PDT, 12.30 p.m. EST. We are going live on YouTube. Why'd you say PDT and then EST? That's how you're supposed to do it. Really? Yes. Standard and then Pacific Daily? Yes. Okay, well, who decided that? I don't know the answer to that question, but you are messing with our plug right now. I just asked her to do things. We are going live on YouTube on the Ringer Movies channel to do Amanda's advice corner. Yeah, and you just saw some of the incisive questions that will be asked as we solve your problems together.

1:39:08So if you want to chat with us and more specifically get Amanda's deepest, darkest thoughts about how we delineate time in this country, hop onto YouTube at 9.30 you can ask us some movie questions if you want but I would say if there are things in your life that you need clarified this is the gal for you we'll see you then

1:39:46you