‘One Battle After Another’: A Second Opinion With Van Lathan

28:29Two things. One, I don't, I legitimately, and you guys. It's okay. But the criticism before, I legitimately don't understand the gas. Like, honestly. honestly don't understand the gas okay but you mean that like you don't mean like literally the sean penn gas nah the sean penn gas is different yeah okay i was like am i gonna need to explain like that's different okay like the sean penn's character is written to rule the movie yeah and he does rule the movie it's so funny um jomi was in here and was talking about that and i i was saying like i basically don't think of that character when i think about the movie and what I mean, like, it's obviously integral to what's going on in the movie.

29:09And the performance is, like, alarming. But when I am thinking, what sticks with me? It's like, Sean Penn is not in the frame. Sean Penn, and this is why this movie is such a fantastic piece of art. Yeah. Sean Penn's character in the movie, to me, is the only character that actually has a want. Everybody else is responding to his want, to his thing. And that, and his want is so, it becomes. I mean, that's not true. Chase Infinity's character has a wand. Shafidia doesn't know what her wand is, but that's part of the thing that she's trying to figure out. So Chase Infinity's character really doesn't have a wand.

29:46She's placed in peril, and she's reactionary to everything that she's placed into. I mean, when we meet her. We meet a young girl who's trying to find her own way, who's trying to find independence from her father, this weird sheltered life that's been explored for her. She's trying to build a life of her own, and the reason that we care that she's in peril is because we've seen that. for me I'll just talk about for me the reason why I care that she was in peril is because she was in peril really the reason why I care that she was in peril is because she was an innocent and I think characters like that are always interesting because they didn't sign up for it's the classic kid thing I didn't ask to be here so how can you have these rules for me you're inflicting your rules based upon your life on me and I didn't ask for none of this.

30:34Yeah, but... And so the things that are happening to her are happening to her because of mistakes and situations that other people have made and put her in. And so watching her climb out of those mistakes and situations is very satisfactory. It's very satisfying, should I say. But the person that is saying, I have to get her, I have to do this, even that starts our narrative with the want of Perfidia, the person that spins all of this into a story is Lockjaw. That's why, to me, Lockjaw is the meatiest character in the thing, because, and that's why his death, the first death, particularly the second death, is not needed, but the first...

31:21Oh, he didn't like the T2 homage? Nah, the first death, the reason why it was so perfect was because it was so unceremonious. It was just, hey, guess what? It's the way things work in life. You fucked with the wrong people. No one, boom, head blown off. I was like, wow, to take him out like that. You wanted all these big things. You wanted to be a part of the Christmas motherfuckers and you wanted to do all of this stuff. Boom, you did the wrong thing, head blown off. Yep. So, I mean, not necessarily, I'm looking at the film and I'm thinking, the film is hysterical. It was so much funnier I thought it was going to be.

32:04The performances are all fantastic. All of that. But like best movie that we've seen in a long... I just didn't see that or feel that in any sort of way. And... Do you feel that perhaps you are not emotionally and intellectually incentivized to withhold a little bit based on your presentation about your ideas before you saw the movie? Perhaps. which is why I'm going to see it again. Oh, that's exciting. Perhaps, which is why I'm going to see it again. Let's not say I don't trust you, but in the same way that I am not trusted when it comes to a PTA movie because I'm so far in the bag, I have become the bag.

32:42Well, this is your Marvel. And so, and by the way, can I tell you guys something? Uh-oh. Here we go. Marvel's back. Let's just have a conversation about this. There is nothing wrong with being irrationally connected to something that you really care about. Of course I agree with that. everybody that's kicking my ass, I like this. That's what y 'all don't understand about me. No one's kicking your ass. Everybody that's going to, like, everybody that's doing this, I like this. Because this shows me an intense connection to moving cinema and media. And this is what has to happen for movies to get made and people to get their shot.

33:19You have to fucking care. So I enjoy it. But I also understand that a lot of films are looked at in two different ways. and this happens in rap a lot too, you know this. If your reputation precedes you to the point where he used to write him and Chris. I grew up in Atlanta. What is this? That's what I'm talking about. Gucci. There we go. It's like the better people think you are, the more they allow you to fail. And not that this movie is in any way a failure, except for one way. Kingdom Come happened and we were like we'll move on. We'll get to 444. Yeah, it's Jay. You know he can do it. So even if it, there's one way that this movie fails.

33:59Okay. And we talked about it on Midnight Boys. This movie fails black women. Okay. I knew, I. Go ahead. Go ahead. And man, there's a, because, and this is the nut kick. There are black women in this movie and they are some of the most talented, amazing performers that we have. Tiana Taylor, Regina Hall, you do not want to, they would not endeavor into anything that they didn't think is nourishing. So I'm really interested to see how they are going to respond to some of the criticism of the movie. I'm not going to say anything that's original. Brooke Obie, the great Brooke Obie, has talked about this.

34:47A lot of other people have written about this. This movie basically came out at the same time that Asajj Kaur died. an actual real life black female revolutionary the portrayal of Profitia Beverly Hills in this movie despite being really well portrayed almost otherworldly by Tiana Taylor it's an abomination it's like it is because of the actions that the character takes because of

35:28I was verbose on this about the, on the minute I was about it, but intention is what matters when you're talking about the care of black women. The situation that black women exist, and particularly black women with a certain political thrust that have put their lives on the line for revolution, the way that they've been undermined, exiled, and treated in America is intentional. So when there is a portrayal of a Black woman, particularly a Black woman that exists in the space that Profitio Beverly Hills exists in, you want to see that same intention in them, that same care in them. And what you really kind of got was someone that was so grotesquely selfish and unaware that everyone that she met was worse off because of it.

36:15And it's just an interesting standpoint to watch a white male writer director put a black female character in. Like, it's just an interesting thing. I've seen really compelling arguments on both sides of this. Like, hey, true freedom is the ability to be flawed and be redeemed. All of that. I've seen that and I hold space for that. It's dramatics. It's not a documentary. I understand, but I also understand that there are tropes that exist. I mean, there might be a dramatic place for blackface to exist in a film like this or some other place. That doesn't mean I want to see it. And that doesn't mean I want to see it done irresponsibly.

36:57Sure. And so I think one way that we can all kind of show that we are in lockstep as filmmaking fans is to accept some of this criticism and understand where it's coming from. Yeah. And when you see someone like, let's fuck while the bomb goes off, goes in there, she's trying to liberate people, get your dick up. She has sex with both of the white protagonists, gets pregnant by one, abandons her child because she's too safe. Then snitches on the whole thing and leaves and then writes on the wall, this pussy don't pop for you no more. That seems like somebody's fetish fantasy. It seems like somebody's fetish fantasy.

37:42I know this is adapted from something. And that character is not a black lady in this, but I think that actually makes it worse. Do you think it's mitigated at all by the fact that her daughter is the hero of the story? No, I don't. Do you think it's mitigated at all by... To me, I think that the presentation of those ideas, which I went on Wesley Morris' pod, which I think goes up later this week, and we talked about this a little bit on his show too. Oh, Wesley. I anticipated this, and it's very understandable. I mean, this is a very raw portrayal. Listen to him. If people get into your mentions about, like, this is, like, woke revolutionary propaganda or whatever, I'm like, if you look at how perfidia is characterized, this is not a celebration of someone who's pursuing that lifestyle at all.

38:36In fact, it's like a, it's a very harsh portrayal. And you can say insensitive or wrong. Not only that, but like also it, it, she, Leonardo DiCaprio is holding her child and she spits to him a bunch of bullshit about the revolution when really she doesn't see it that way. Okay. So this is what I, this is what I would ask you. I mean, his question, is it mitigated by her daughter, a young black woman being like the hero? But is it mitigated by, it's an incredibly selfish character and also a character that does everything or a movie that has the character do everything that you just said, which is, you know, a stereotype, like a stereotype fetishization.

39:27It's very hard on this little summary. All in one. And I do think that both the filmmaking and the performance at least explores or tries to signal it like why that's happening and why or ask the question of why is this person so selfish and why is this person doing these things? And does the expiration, maybe, and maybe that doesn't, but that scene that you were talking about in particular, he's holding her baby and she has just gone through a montage I like keep thinking about, which is some people have called it postpartum depression, but like, I don't, we don't even need to add that name to it.

40:12It's just the really disorienting feeling of having given birth to another human. And what does that mean to you? And what does that mean for the other person? And what does that make you? What is your concept of yourself? Like, as a mother, what is the concept of like being a mother? Is that different from being a person? And then, you know, this scene when she's with Lockjaw and his boner starts first. And then she's like, I see that I have some sort of power. But like, what is, to me, Tiana Taylor's performance explores like the feelings and the experiences of those stereotypes in a way. And maybe it doesn't for you and maybe it doesn't communicate.

41:05But if it did, would that mitigate it? So her irresponsibility starts before she gives birth. Like they're sitting down and she's drinking and stuff. And he goes, it's like she doesn't even know that she's pregnant. Everybody talks about how hapless Bob is, but he wasn't hapless when he knew that he was going to become a father. It changed everything for him. Also, can I just like, as you know, that's also an example of a white man policing, like, you know, what someone wants to do. And my experience of pregnancy was like a bunch of people telling me what I can't do and can or can't do with my body in ways that, by the way, is still happening like all the time.

41:42And, you know, so I'm sorry for all those comments I made to you. Sure. Thank you. But like, you know, so even that I guess like he's being responsible, but also it's like she can do whatever she wants. This is this is me from a very privileged perch communicating this. but when I was watching the movie and I've seen the movie four times now, to me that character is an expression of the necessary self-preservation and coercion that happens when you are a black woman pursuing these ideas in the world. And that there is a way that you are fetishized, that you are made into an icon of a certain type and that there are a lot of men and a lot of lock jaws in the world that put you in positions of, I don't know about helplessness, but surrender because of their power.

42:33And also that the entire movie is about one generation's version of revolution and another generation's version of revolution. And commentary on that. And the impossibility because of the ruthlessness of our system, I think in some ways to pursue violent revolution, which is what Perfidia represents. She represents a no holds barred pursuit, an explosive, aggressive, criminal pursuit, not a non-violent pursuit and the tension there I don't know that I don't think it's judging her if you want to say she does terrible things oh it doesn't judge her at all the movie doesn't judge her at all the movie as a matter of fact doesn't actually investigate almost anything about her I guess my thing is I know those black lady revolutionaries but not the ones that are and they they mamas and they they're not selfish they're not crumpled they are the opposite of selfish their politic and I'm not saying that this means that perfidious has to be their politic for the entire world and society comes from the way that they feel like their children should be accepted and reared in it but perfidious exists in that lineage.

43:57We see her grandmother talking to Bob saying, my daughter comes, or my granddaughter comes from a long line of revolutionaries. I think the thing that I'm trying to point out here is that Perfidia is one character. But those women, the movie isn't about those women. The movie is about her. No, it's not about her. She is in the prologue. I know, but when I'm saying it's about her, I mean, they're in it in the background. The character, like every other, so Regina Hall's character, every black woman and that shows care in the movie is punished for it. I don't know if that's accidental, but it happened.

44:32I think it's on purpose. Right, right. So this is the most vulnerable class in our society. That's the whole point of the movie. Yeah, but at the same time, Perfidia is one of the people in the movie that punished other black women. All of this stuff is happening to them because of her. Oh, no, no, no, no. She took actions, but she exists inside of a system that coerces her. She snitched. She made, she snitched, got jungle pussy killed, sent every, she destroyed her own revolution, sent everybody running for the hills. She put her, she abandoned her daughter and then when Regina Hall comes back into the movie to save her daughter and brings her to the nuns, she brings Lockjaw's rage with her and destroys all of those lives.

45:20And every single one of the nuns is handcuffed. every single one of them is is is is is gone i'm not saying that this was all done in intentional messaging from the from the writer director from pta but what i'm saying is that like oftentimes that character might mean more to me than it does to other people the portrayal of that character might mean more to me i might feel a little bit more inclined to be like what are we trying to say here? Right. And it, somebody else might be sitting at their desk going, I'm going to write a cool, sexy, badass black chick. I'm going to write, I'm going to, I'm going to do all of this stuff.

46:03It does strike to me that like when it strikes me, should I say that when Quentin Tarantino decided that he was going to like orient his movie around a black woman, He treated somebody who has a fraught relationship with race. He treated her with so much care. And that might have been his respect for Pam Greer. That might have been what that was about. But it seemed like at least there was an understanding that a middle-aged Black female needs for someone to be able to zoom out and look at the entirety of what that means. and the decisions she would have to make. And the movie almost, like in that film, she almost floats around on clouds and watches the chaos around her and has the wherewithal and the gumption to be able to navigate it.

46:58It's a very empowering performance. I mean, you're describing a movie, you're describing the hero of a movie. Perfidia is not the hero of this movie. She's the villain. And so, and so... She's not. She's not. Well, she's one of the villains of the film. How could she not be? She does terrible things, but that doesn't make you a villain in a movie. Lockjaw is the villain. Lockjaw is the agent of the system that puts Profidia in this situation in the first place. He is the agent of the system. And he is also literally the person who impregnates her, which is, you know, there's a... Like... A load-bearing metaphor there.

47:30Quite literally a load. What I'm saying is all of these things are choices that she's made where she centers herself and no one else. You're right. And like, that is the opposite of what Black female activists and revolutionaries do. They prioritize their communities and their families. They take on family. They take everybody becomes their family to a point that they live lives in imperiled lives for decades for their entire life because of their decisions to put other people before them. This is like a really complex philosophical dynamic that you're describing. What you're talking about is the value of representation.

48:22Is it better for the film and better for society that the film depict, if it's going to depict a black female revolutionary, that it do so in what you would describe as true terms and that also feel like moral terms? That for the movie's sake, it is better if perfidia beverly hills does not rat goes into a kind of seclusion or is killed and made a martyr figure and then the story can go from there or is this the creation of an artist granted a white male artist but the creation of an artist and that the story and what the movie is ultimately driving towards which is ultimately about this tension between two generations trying to make change.

49:04Is that ultimately more important? And do you want to empower the artist? Because you premised a lot of this conversation on people being able to express themselves and say the things that they want to say that are valuable to them, and whether it be a $2 million or$170 million. So you get into an area where you're effectively policing characterization by saying, this is not okay that this person in this film, it does these things because this is not what the movement is about. I would always quibble with that. That is in the territory of like borderline censorship that I'm ultimately not comfortable with.

49:35But I am also a white guy hosting a movie podcast in my 40s. I'm aware of what it means to say that. And that it's easier for me to say, he should be able to do whatever he wants. But it is very, very complicated once you start saying, this was the worst part of the movie because I didn't like what it showed about something that I feel is not true in society. Only for black people does truth equate to censorship. and the reason why I say that is because what we've begged is for an accurate representation of us for a long time and sometimes what comes back is these are the stories if you want to be in them we should be able to tell them the way we see them and we're saying okay that's not us not only is that not us but it's so not us that it plays into tropes that have been used to minimize us can we talk about it like can we discuss the fact and we are discussing it we are discussing it just to be real with you we are discussing it and I'll you know I don't have this people say what the fuck they want about this place but we've been discussing it like on podcast in the fucking room.

50:53You're right. We've been talking about it and nobody has gotten, maybe Jack got pissed off a little bit. No, like nobody has gotten mad. Nobody has stormed out. Nobody has not had the conversation. We've been doing that. But what, what I'm saying is that like, no one wants to see PTA or anybody else have to write to what they feel the best intentions of a character are because that makes for boring. Right. That's ultimately what I'm getting at. True. But after generations, we do just start to ask why. And by the way, these are not just conversations that we have about Paul Thomas Anderson's movies.

51:35We have them about Tyler Perry's movies. And God damn it, if we're going to have them about Tyler Perry's movies or about hip hop or about any of this stuff, if we're going to have these conversations intercommunally, then we certainly don't have them. When we see movies that are about to win 10 Oscars and all of that stuff and about the portrayal of black women in them, we have to have them. And they're uncomfortable to have when Wood Harris is in it. Do you know how fucking excited I get to see Wood Harris? We all would have liked more Wood Harris. Do you know how excited I get to see Wood Harris in the movie?

52:11Wood Harris should be not just in this movie. Wood Harris should be in every movie. Guess what? He's earned it. he's earned it Teyana Taylor has earned it my wife was like what happened to Avon he's earned it these performers have earned it and it's so fucking awesome to see them up there with these other people that are minted in the town part of the reason why I think I'm pushing back on this a little bit setting aside my fanboys status this movie goes to great lengths to portray Deandra this movie shows us Mother Superior or at the Sisters of the Brave Beaver. You know, this movie does make Chase Infinity ultimately the person who fires the gun and saves the day.

52:54Like, it's not, to me, it is not an insensitive portrayal, but it is a portrayal with a lot of nuance and friction. And like the Perfidia character, just like the character in the film, is a confrontation to the audience. It is a question of if this person existed, what would happen in the world? And that is something that art, in my opinion, should and can do. So you might, what you're saying is 100 % valid that after generations of portrayals like this, just saying like, why is it like this? This doesn't feel right. I respect it. But I'm very uncomfortable with specifically saying we can't do this.

53:33Well, it's, I don't think anybody is saying that you can't. Obviously you can. I think we're exploring the why more than anything. and also that it doesn't land you know and we talked about that even walking out the decision to make perfidia the rat you know which is like is from the book but is just like a very fraught and you walk out and you like even you and I like we're questioning the decision and what does that mean and what are you representing with that and it's and And did you need to do it? I don't know. Like that to me, you know, I guess I have like editor brain. I'm just like, well, what if we just tweaked this?

54:17And maybe everyone would be like a lot happier. Yeah. And not a lot happier. That sounds reductive. But maybe it would all add up. Like I think it's conscious and I think it is meaning to provoke us. A hundred percent. In my opinion. But I also completely understand if it doesn't land. and but part of why it's good I think is because it generated this conversation yeah of course I mean look two things one when black women roll their eyes I'm gonna be I'm just I'll just be honest with you like cultural differences when black women roll their eyes my innate response is what's wrong yeah it doesn't matter where we at we in a restaurant I roll what's wrong like we in a movie we in a show I roll when black women roll their eyes, what's wrong?

55:09What's up? Tell me what's up. Because we got to have this conversation. And there's some eye rolling that's going on right now. And I understand why the eye rolling is going on. There's a last thing that gets said. There a lot of times could be 150 performances that are sometimes pandering with the heroism of certain characters. Sometimes you write them as if they are Mother Superior or whatever like that sometimes. But when it's something like this that people love so much, we always ask, why do you love that depiction? Like when it's something like this and everyone goes, this is the greatest thing ever.

56:02The most amazing thing ever. it's why is it that depiction that you love after Denzel Washington has won has been nominated for Malcolm X he this is not a criticism of Denzel he has won his Oscar for playing a slave and then a dirty cop we always go well why is it that after Halle Berry has been in the town for so long making great movies she got let me be respectful but you guys have seen Monsters Ball we always go that's what y 'all like like okay alright now if if we make the movie then obviously the characters are more nuanced right but not all the time but we always go that's what you like huh that's what you will reward that's like that's what is the greatest thing.

57:04And the question, just, why? Like, it, and... I'm not saying any of these things are solved because they're not solved. Things have been, I would describe Hollywood in this particular aspect as very different in the last 10 years. It, it... There's a, there's, to me, there's a demarcation point between 12 Years a Slave to now where that felt to me like kind of the last time when that framework of storytelling... Well, that, but that's a... That's a reaction. Yeah, that's a... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, by the way, But the character in Green Book is not the kind of character that you're describing.

57:40Mahershala's win there, that's an elegant artist that is portrayed on screen. And listen to me, man, like you can't, because some of this stuff gets into, then we're policing what kind of roles we should be taking and what kind of stuff. He also did win for Moonlight as well. Which is coming from Barry's mind, which when you look at the movies that he has made or that Ava has made, or that I can go down and down and down and up and up and up and up and up and all of that stuff. You see these three-dimensional characters who exist. If you were to take Mahershala Ali's character in Moonlight, I'm going to be real with you.

58:18Those were the drug dealers that I knew. Just one. Those were the guys that I knew. I didn't know the guys that were like, hey, man, fuck everybody. Kill them all. Doing this. I'm sure those guys were around. The guys that I knew would feel a little bit of shame when looked at their grandmother the wrong way. They were uncomfortable in church. They were odd when people were talking about right and wrong. They knew they were doing wrong. And they also sometimes went overboard to protect you and to put you in a feeling of safety and to do things for you. so you would look the other way while they were doing shit that they knew they had no business doing, but that the choice matrix that they were presented with made them do.

59:06And so I just never, you just got to a point where when you saw that character, you were just like, Jesus Christ. Like, thank you, Barry. Like, that's my Uncle Mark. Like, that's him. I cannot read his rap sheet and then tell you that he was a good guy because you're not going to believe me. Like once I do it, I can't do that. But that's the fucking guy. That's him. And then he dies just in that movie and they don't even show it. They just come back while I'm been dead. That's how it happens. And nobody cares except for the four fucking people that relied on him. And then you get into another film and it's like, oh.

59:51And it's everything that everyone is saying is correct. And bro, it just, It feels like being the drag at the fucking party. But I'm just saying, let's just talk it out. You're not the drag at the party. No, no, no. The only reason why I'm saying that is because it's like this guy, I've been this guy for so long. It's like, I remember when the Kanye thing happened, like people from Best Buy, they were emailing me and they were like, remember that conversation we had in the parking lot outside work when you were going crazy over the Iraq war? I was like, yeah. It's like, glad to see you. You made that your career.

1:00:24my whole fucking career and so I'm not trying to record scratch y 'all movie I swear to god I'm not no it's it's obviously something that people have been asking us about since we've been raving about most people are raving about this this is one of the more unanimous raves and now 10 days since release is the time when everybody's gonna be like are we sure this is good let's explore the ways in which maybe it isn't working okay two things the movie is good but there is just overall the overall quality of the film there is like I feel like there is a gas to it that I don't understand. But that's besides the point because we could talk.

1:01:02I ranked my PTA movies and I put the master above there will be blood. And people were like, are you fucking with me? Same. I did that on the last episode. So I'm right there. And then I put this and Phantom Thread above those. Oh, interesting. You put this movie above Boogie Nights? Yeah. You're wilding. Well, I mean, he did too. You're crazy. But honestly. Crazy people's podcast. We're changing the name. Change the lower thirds. The name of this podcast is no longer the big picture. It's the Crazy People's Podcast. But all of my... I'm so glad you're here. This wasn't even planned. Yesterday, I was like, come on.

1:01:39I know, but seriously though, and look, once again, I mean, Joe told me how much she loved Inherent Vice. I told that to somebody in the office. Oh, yeah. And I'm not gonna say who it was and they threw their shit on the ground. She hates it. I literally said, get out of here when talking about it. Cause I fucking, that's, that's the lowest on my list. Well, I'm not a stoner. Like I'm not doing any part of that. And the three PTA movies that I, well, my top two have women characters in them, you know? So it's like, it's, it's, it's not rocket science, kind of like what you're responding to. And even when we were talking about Profidia, I'm talking about the half of the experience that like I can relate to with her, you know?

1:02:16So it's, it's not, it's, it's not hard. Yeah. So, you know, and that is what it is. I really enjoyed the movie. The theater had a great time. I think there's something to be said about a movie that deals in such weighty stuff that you can still have a good time with. And that's kind of like... Yeah, absolutely. It's a fun thinker. It's a fun thinker. There are other things in the movie that like... For the record, that was my takeaway from Sinners as well, which is... I was like, this movie is loaded with ideas, but it's just a fun time. The in-theater experience was very exciting. You're having fun.

1:02:50as far as a lot of the pushback that you're seeing I'll just say it again a lot of pushbacks that you're seeing from people about some of the characterizations of black women and some of the fates of black women in the movie I think that there's something and I just want to say this very clearly we want to see black ladies taken care of and when we see them not being taken care of we're going to have a conversation now does that always mean that like that conversation won't be met with whatever whatever no but we will have the conversation and this film it just it seemed like particularly that character the overall characterization of revolutionaries period something that's very important to the African American tradition the black tradition in this country were treated in sort of a haphazard way that some would say doesn't, not some would say, that I say doesn't do it any justice.

1:03:59I mean, that's the point of the movie, but with something that's going to be this important culturally, it's just it's a conversation that has to happen. And that's what art does. We have the conversation and so that's what art does. So the takeaway is that this film is about how the only people who are good at revolution are white men. Actually, no one in this movie is good at anything. It's true. I mean, just to be honest with you. To a person. Oh, you know who's good at stuff? I mean, Sensei Sergio is very good. I mean, he saves Bob twice. Even him, even he drinks, he's drinking beer in front of the cops and kind of just, you know.

1:04:40But he is. But that's by design. But you know who's good at stuff in this movie? Who's that? The Christmas niggas. they like they're the big winners they did not lose any control they did not lose anything and it's once again even that that's part of the point with the perfidia character is like there's nothing she can do to overcome this nothing but there is we have overcome we've overcome the way that power is organized in the United States of America this is not CNN we have overcome I'll just say this in the weekend movie we haven't overcome totally but we started off in this country as beasts as cattle we started off in this country as people who were cut off from God, from humanity everything that we invented was stolen everything that we were was bought and sold.

1:05:49And we've overcome that. We haven't completely reformed and reshaped America into the vision of itself that it said it was. We haven't. But we certainly, through the power of our ancestors and the kinetic energy of our fight and our unity culturally, have overcome a wilderness that wanted to kill us. We have. And so we can overcome and we will. And we kind of always do. But while we're watching these movies on the way to it,

1:06:29and we've overcome because of us, it was us, but we've overcome with help from other people who realized the shit was wrong. and so I'm never cynical just so people know me I'm never cynical about what has been achieved I'm not going to act like the fight is over when there's so much We have a very different point of view about this The arc of black Americans what you're describing of course is true The way what the movie is suggesting about the way that power works in the country while it is very funny because it's written in a very humorous way I think it's eerily true You're right Yeah But that doesn't mean oh hold on like winning and overcoming two different things no we ain't won like but we've actually i don't even know what winning would look like i am it's kind of weird i'm not even sure i think about the world that way because we're not because we're not in a winning winning for me would be very simple it would be the power of economic political and uh the and and and and society existing with the people of america and not existing with corporate but we don't have to You can tell that.

1:07:37So, I mean, that's a win that maybe that can't even happen. But as far as over... I just want to sit on my couch, smoke weed, and watch the Battle of Algiers. That's what the fuck I'm talking about. That's what I want to be able to do. But as far as all that overcoming, we might not have win, but we've overcome some really things, some really incredible things. Look, this movie asks a lot of incredible questions, but it is essentially, and that's the last thing I'll say, it's essentially a movie about a father and a daughter. so it's essentially what the movie is about a father and a daughter I think the most interesting thing about the movie is it's not about an actual father and a daughter it's about the love that you have for someone and how that love exists no matter what the reality of the situation is that's right it's me, it's your dad it's me, it's your dad and like all of the things that you're supposed to be able to draw on to save the people that you love that sometimes you can't because sometimes you don't remember the password.

1:08:39So I praise and revere the movie. And at the same time, the movie is some fuck shit. It's a good movie. Not the best movie that's ever been made. It doesn't hold a candle to Parasite or other movies like that. It's not even in the same fucking class. But it's also some fuck shit. I think millions of people will hear this episode didn't feel seen by your comments. So thank you. Millions of people listening to the Big P. Yeah. Last episode had 36 million listeners. You're lying. I was about to say, we gotta overcome it. Y 'all gotta overcome. Y 'all doing good, but I didn't know what was happening.

1:09:23Thank you. You are the man. Appreciate you guys. All complaints at Van Lathien on Twitter. Catch him on CNN. Thanks so much to Van. Thanks to Amanda. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Thanks to you for receiving this episode in good faith. We'll see you very soon on The Big Picture.