‘Primetime’ Is a Robert Pattinson Transformation and the Nightmare Media Movie of Our Time, With Lance Oppenheim!

19:13Sean Fennessey:Pattinson is doing something fascinating because the vocal timbre, the mannerisms, the like crusader demon quality that Hanson had. The physicality. Yes, it's so perfectly matched. It is, you know, snapshot accurate, but it's also extremely heightened. There's been a lot of talk about Dracula being a big influence on this performance. You know, from the opening moments when we see him opening a curtain, he has this kind of devilish pose to him that is really fascinating. And it goes for both behind the scenes and in front of the camera that he never totally seems like a person who knows who he is.

19:52Sean Fennessey:He only kind of understands himself as this public persona. Right. I thought you were just going to end that sentence as he never totally seems like a person. and you do watch the character of Chris Hansen going in and out of the performance of, you know, the crusader that he is in front of the camera versus the sort of dad, though he doesn't really try in his personal life at all. And another interesting thing about this movie is how everyone in it is a complete failure outside of the confines of the control room or this movie set, which is possibly true of many TV crews, but like definitely true of many people that we know.

20:34Yes. In all types of industries. Yes. And you see there's a remove, there's like a distance to the performance itself from like basically humanity, which I think is genius and is obviously just incredibly engaging to watch because you don't know what he's going to do. and he does really random stuff and communicates pretty quickly that he is going for it with a capital G. But it is also interesting kind of in what ultimately the movie wants to say about Chris Hansen and or these programs and or, you know, how we understand other people through a screen and can you and or is it just constantly like is everyone a predator in its own way, which certainly the Chris Hansen character is.

21:27Sean Fennessey:You know, I rewatched it with my wife this week and we had a really long and complicated conversation about what the responsibility of the producers of this show actually was and the notions of entrapment and what they're drawing out of people. The movie I thought was actually, the second time I watched it, I thought was even more incisive about that question in ways that maybe I wasn't thinking about as I was trying to get my bearings because the movie is extremely stylish and has a fascinating visual framework where it's clearly, you know, Lance said it's shot on, I think, 25 different formats.

21:57Sean Fennessey:And it's clearly gone through this pretty rigorous post-process to give it a kind of like sort of a psychotronic, hyper-colorful, but also grainy look that is, I guess, shot on digital, but then in the post-process makes it look more like the TV show at times. It makes it look more like your computer screen and things that you watched in the 2000s. It makes it look more like a sleazy nightclub. of like just don't go there environment at moments. Like something you're not supposed to be seeing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so the movie itself has this very powerful effect. But then when you revisit the work, like it is textually about the ugliness really, I think of this production.

22:39Sean Fennessey:And the fact that I think that's such an astute point you made, which is that these people are so good at their jobs. And what does that mean to be so good at your job? And then to only like to turn your whole life over to that. and not really have the distance to examine what it is that you're contributing to the world and actually to delude yourself into thinking, I'm really making a difference. Because that's something that Hansen is kind of constantly promoting to himself and to everyone who works for him and to this figure of Dan Plum, played by Gizondo, who comes into this world. And you can sense because of the acuity of his performance that this is not right, but he's an out-of-work actor and he really wants the gig.

23:20Sean Fennessey:And he loves acting. And so he throws himself wholeheartedly into the work, knowing that what they're doing on the show is there's something wrong about it. Right. And he has like a friend character who is calling and checking in and is also an aspiring actor. Yes, the hysterical Eric Rahel. And it's like so, so funny. I mean, the best line deliveries of the year so far. But he's also hysterical in Maddie's Secret. He plays Maddie's husband. Yeah, incredible. He's such a funny actor. and he's calling and he's like making jokes about making jokes about the content not taking any of it seriously and then is also just telling the dan character all the time like but like you're barely in it and it doesn't really count and you're not acting so the the skylar is onto a character is both like the conscience stand in and trying to figure out what am i doing and And is am I a good person or a bad person?

24:18Is this are we doing the right thing? Are we helping? Are we hurting? But also doesn't even like has his own motivations. And then even those aren't really fulfilled. And like the nice thing I think about this movie that does point out the ugliness around certainly this show and kind of like the types of people that tend to gravitate towards it is that like no one really learns their lesson. you know like no one actually they do learn that like bad things happen but it doesn't it's it's

24:52Sean Fennessey:not moralizing no there's a devastating merit weaver line at the near the very end of the movie that i think speaks to yeah the lack of conscience of a lot of the people that are working on it yeah um a few more things about pattinson because we've been talking about him all year i mean he's he he and anne hathaway and tom holland and zendaya are they're the story of movies this year, which is like something we've been suggesting was going to happen on this show for like 10 years and then it happened. And obviously Pattinson and Anne Hathaway have had long careers now. But for all four of those people to be hitting in big movies is interesting.

25:26Sean Fennessey:This one, I think, is probably his boldest act. Like it's the most because it's not a supporting part. It's a huge choice. It's the kind of part that if another if an actor did it in the 90s, you'd hear a lot of annoying stories about what they did on set. Right. And you don't hear about that. He doesn't seem like he's like, I'm in character and being difficult and obnoxious. Yeah. It just seems like he makes big choices. He works with filmmakers who want him to make big choices. And it's interesting, too, to watch somebody at this stage of his career play like a decaying egotist. You know, that's really what Hanson is, is like somebody who never quite got to, say, the Stone Phillips level.

26:04Sean Fennessey:And Stone Phillips is used very amusingly in this movie as the counterpoint, a real serious journalist. and Chris can't quite get there. Yeah. And so the only thing he can do is kind of lean even deeper into this deeply malevolent kind of work that he's doing that he also thinks is very important and powerful. Or has convinced himself is very important and powerful. And there is a lot of the character mythologizing or self-mythologizing and talking about the importance of the show within the movie, but it's never really quite clear what of that is actually true or real or just in his own psychodrama that's being made real to us.

26:45Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I mean, it is a person who is having a breakdown in real time. And that is Robert Pattinson's interpretation of this role. But the way that he has the breakdown is just not how any actor would play it. It's true. But do you think that the breakdown is like, let's just, because this is not literally Chris Hansen, but in some ways it is. And... Is it possible that his life is just a continued breakdown? You know, that the eccentricity that is on display, there's also on display on the show when you watch it with the halting phrasing and the sort of dramatic line readings and the oddity of his media presence.

27:21Sean Fennessey:You know, you pointed out some of the great stuff that he does throughout this movie, which feels really odd. Yeah. But I could also see Chris Hansen doing some of these things, you know? Yes. Yes, the bulletproof vest that he wears is used to great comedic effect. And I will say, the only thing where Pattinson doesn't have it spot on with Chris Hansen is that they've cut his hair. They've put him in the quarter zip, which I almost wore, actually, for this episode. He's got the clothes. He looks very much like him, but he still is also Robert Pattinson and is, like, incredibly handsome. And so he's there in a bulletproof vest that accentuates his waist just so, you know?

28:05And then it's just like lying on the floor or lounging by an indoor pool. And the production design on this is very excellent in recreating those types of early 2000s McMansion aspirational houses. And also the weird lighting found therein.

28:25Sean Fennessey:Yeah, Lance was really funny. just identifying how weird the set decoration of any To Catch a Predator set was where you'd have a bar in the middle of a living room that was floating and disconnected to anything. Also always a kitchen island. Yes. So there needed to be, I guess, some sort of gathering space visually. That's very funny. But yeah, so he lies down in a bulletproof vest a lot. Lots of like weird, funny faces and, you know, and noises and bodily movements. The part where he's brushing his teeth and like throws his back out. It's really, he doesn't actually throw his back out. He just is almost like he's taken over by some sort of demon.

29:05There is an otherworldly quality, I guess, to what he is bringing to Chris Hansen.

29:09Sean Fennessey:No, I feel like every single person in the production of the show as depicted in the film is possessed. They're possessed by something. And I think it's just desperation for success, which is, I think, the most powerful big note, which is that this is kind of what everyone decided that they wanted, which is like, I'm doing something important and everyone should see what it is. And he is this. Who could relate to that? No, trust me, we're all guilty. Especially those of us who have cameras in front of our faces. One thing that I love, love about the movie is what an amazing snapshot it is of junkie mid-aughts culture.

29:43Sean Fennessey:And there are so many different things. You know, you mentioned Fergie. One of the first things we hear in the movie is Fergie. Is it London Bridge? It's London Bridge. and you know to catch a predator of course and even the primetime raiding wars that are like depicted as per Jeff Zucker moving shows around a schedule board like the quaintness of that now and ultimately when they go when they get the primetime slot they're going up against Lost yes and Lost is referenced frequently you know the film I think also using some of Oppenheim's kind of archival strategy is kind of cutting back and forth between moments from Lost or moments from inside the actor's studio where we see Billy Bob Thornton transforming.

30:21Sean Fennessey:There's a lot, you know, the whole movie is about this kind of the idea of transformation, both for Dan Plum, the actor and for Hanson himself. AOL instant messenger. Yeah. And that, that, that vocal chime you'd hear when you'd get a new message and like waiting for someone to hit you on, on aim. Um, the, the, the musical rent. Sure. You know, that's, that's certainly really, uh, it's, it's used to affect. It is, uh, you know, at a certain point in the film. And we're not really spoiling the movie quite yet because it's not the kind of movie where you're like waiting to find out act to act what is going to happen.

30:58Sean Fennessey:It is a descent, but it isn't a movie that has like plot beats per se, but it does have a series of incidents that further explain the crisis of the characters. But there's fear of a National Enquirer expose, Yeah. Which, once upon a time, was such a big and loud thing that could happen to a public person. John Edwards. Was he among the last people who really fell victim to that thing? Because, you know, of course, we have TMZ now, and we just have, like, Dumois, and we just have getting canceled. We have all these, you know, after effects of the National Enquirer. But the idea of Chris Hansen potentially being canceled by the National Enquirer.

31:38Sean Fennessey:But then one of my favorite scenes in the movie is him searching for himself on the National Enquirer website. It's incredible. And it's not found, but the search results that are found, Paris Hilton, what else? I can't remember the other ones, yeah. Paris Hilton featuring prominently. All memorable. Yeah. Again, junkie aughts culture stuff. You know, there's a lot more. Phoebe Bridgers, who is one of the stars of this movie, in a Nine Inch Nails t-shirt. And then explaining to Bokeem Woodbine's sheriff character what Nine Inch Nails is. Counting Crows Miami playing while searching the National Enquirer website, which is like, you know, album cut from the 2002 album Hard Candy.

32:19Sean Fennessey:Jonathan Lipnicki? I didn't clock it the first time. I didn't clock it until, yeah. Let's just put a spoiler warning around the rest of this conversation. We've given you 30 minutes of discussion here. Everything we'll talk about now is deep into spoiler territory. My apologies to Lucas in the booth who hasn't had a chance to see this movie. yet. Because the movie is about showing a series of setups on To Catch a Predator, we see a lot of different kinds of faces. And the faces that you see, I would say, are not usually the kinds of faces you would even see in a movie. And that was true of the show, too.

32:50Sean Fennessey:Tony Revolori, great actor who you've seen in Wes Anderson movies, the Spider-Man films. He's the first predator who's caught. And if you've seen the trailer, you've seen his face as the person. Later in the movie, there's a young man who comes over who I think his name is CrazyFrog93. And it's Jonathan Lipnicki who played the little boy in Jerry Maguire. Bees and dogs can smell fear. You know, the human head weighs eight pounds. You know, all the stuff that my daughter is saying to me now, the fun facts that she's learning. Yesterday, she was like, soil has nutrients and dirt doesn't. Okay. I didn't know that.

33:27I was like, oh, that's a fucking Jerry Maguire moment.

33:29Sean Fennessey:Thank you for sharing that. Knox came home and was like, we got a pet snake at the classroom and it's cold-blooded. I was like, wow. These are facts. Okay, there you go. I think they're all cold-blooded, all snakes. You know, I didn't know he knew that that existed. That's learning. Anyway, Lipnicki plays one of the Predators. And first of all, it's very charming and amusing and then whips his dick out. Yep. In like a genuine shock laugh. With a can of whipped cream. Yes, with a can of whipped cream. Yeah, which is where the shock, and that's when, and then so the Skylar Gazano character who is like this is his first decoy moment reacts like pretty humanly like with fear and shock as you know he's he's being confronted with the whipped cream and the dick and then uh everyone and it cuts to everyone in the booths and they're all just like still and they're just like huh and they don't laugh but they see the humor they know they have gold you know they have something great for their show.

34:31Sean Fennessey:And obviously, Dan, Decoy Dan, as he's come to be known, is traumatized by this, you know, this thing. And again, like there's something very, very funny about using Jonathan Lipnicki in a part like this and asking him to do it and him thinking, this is a great idea. This is a great part for me to take. Yeah. And tells us a lot about kind of how we process culture and what position we put young people into in the business and what position we're putting Skylar Gizondo's character into who's an adult but is playing a child The whole thing is this kind of like, it's like nine mirrors facing each other at the same time and asking you, like, how do you really look?

35:08Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And I love all the choices like that about it. I mean, there's other specific ones, like Creed Bratton appears in the film from The Office in one very memorable scene that takes place on an airplane. Even using Bokeem Woodbine in general, I think, who we think of as maybe like a more memorable figure from 2000s movie and TV culture. Yeah, I mean, Anna Faris, for that matter, who plays Chris Hansen's wife. Yes. And so the movie just constantly has you thinking about that time. And maybe that's just beneficial for us as people who really came of age at that time. But it's something that I really like about it.

35:38Sean Fennessey:And I marvel that Lance, who I think is only 30, I'm like, how do you even know about all this stuff? I did the math. So he would have been 10. So, but then you think about like what was handed down to you when you were 10. And then also this is just before iPhones. This is just before, like we had the internet. We had email. We had instant messenger. So, you know, how these things get handed down and preserved and like what you've seen and what you remember and what life it takes on, you know, as it is interesting. And the movie is a little bit about that, at least as much about how this time period does connect to the sad, miserable world we live in right now.

36:21Sean Fennessey:No question. It almost feels like the end of The Innocents. Like that's almost the idea of the movie is that once we realized we could start doing this stuff, once we realized we could literally start doing the things that were considered high satire in network, that it was all over. That like officially the dominoes had all fallen and we were sitting in this new era. It's also, I think, a great movie about making TV. and not just the process by which they go about making the show but you know the idea that that's really all there is that you like to find yourself by it at a certain point in the movie Chris Hansen kind of takes Decoy Dan under his wing and they start literally having this father-son-esque bond they literally have a catch interesting to watch Pattinson throw the ball it seemed like it seemed like he kind of knew what he was doing okay I mean, he is Batman.

37:13Sean Fennessey:His release was like a little too quick. I know, but he's British. Sure. So he didn't grow up playing baseball, more than likely. They play cricket. So I think they throw the ball differently. You think Robert Pattinson plays cricket? I'm sure that he has interacted with it before. That's more of a bounce, right? The ball is bounced. And this is where I'm at over my skis. I don't actually know. Well, you were coming to his defense with cricket. Well, I did see people playing cricket on the beach this summer, which is very weird. And you play cricket on the beach. I don't know. They just had the bats and the things.

37:43Okay.

37:44Sean Fennessey:The balls don't bounce on sand. Listen, they had the cricket bats. They were, and they were British. Jack, can you help me here? So they were talking about it. Maybe they were playing on like the sidewalk, like the closed off area just for walking pedestrians. So you think no British person has ever thrown a ball? That's, no, I wouldn't say that. There's a, as far as I know, a very low percentage of British people in Major League Baseball. Did we ever hear from anyone about how you pronounce the lion in Lion? We got lots of feedback on Instagram, to which I say, I can't understand when you type this as an Instagram comment.

38:11Okay, so there's no rhymes with? Lots of people apparently said Sean was correct in his pronunciation, which I don't even remember. Listen, I'd like a rhymes with, okay? Not Sean's correct. I'll get that for next episode. Because he said it four different ways. So what we're learning is that British people don't listen to this podcast and don't know how to throw balls.

38:31Sean Fennessey:I'm not saying that specifically. I thought Pattinson acquitted himself pretty well given the circumstances. and then Skylar Gisando throwing the ball back to him couldn't throw. Right. What we don't know is whether or not Skylar actually knows how to throw a ball and didn't. Okay. Or was he just portraying Dan as a kid who didn't grow up playing baseball? I read it as the latter. Because you're a very generous person. Well, it's because he's a good actor and the rest of the performance is remarkable and so locked in and so specific and it is also, I mean, he is the emotion of the movie. He is like the only person with any sort of emotional intelligence or, you know.

39:12Sean Fennessey:And external life from the world of the making of the show. Yes. We do see Hanson with his family but even then he feels like an alien removed from the situation. We see him showing his young children the most recent clip of Dateline NBC in which he catches predators. This is me showing Alice you on the show being like, look at how she's getting this fit off. Do you do that? No. Every time the boys look at my phone and see you, they say, Sean. Sean talking. I mean, obviously, same for you. They're happy to see you, so you don't have to turn it into something mean. One of the nice things in our life is that my daughter loves you and your boys love me.

39:45Sean Fennessey:It's very special and important. It's very nice. But Skylar Gazondo, he's also playing counter to Pattinson within the context of the movie. It's not quite a two-hander, but... The movie's power shifts at times. When I got to the end of the movie the second time, I was like, this is kind of Skylar Gazondo's movie. I mean, this is why I walked out and I was like, can you run him in leading and patents and in supporting? And I don't think you can. And I know you don't think you can because you hate category fraud of any time. I think it's just like a make, you know, paint your own picture as, you know, make the world fit to your needs.

40:22Sean Fennessey:They're, if you're being completely honest, they're probably co-leads, which is something that the awards complex doesn't really enjoy. But, you know, Skylar Gazondo gets a real outer life and Hanson only seems to have an inner life. Or maybe it's the other way around. Maybe it's Gazondo who's character. Maybe it's Dan who has the inner life, and we see him kind of in crisis, reckoning with it. Whereas, and at times, I mean, one of my very favorite sequences in the movie is in one of the late scenarios that has been set up, once they've moved down to Texas, where Hanson is having kind of a meltdown.

40:52That's when he's in the bulletproof vest on the floor. Yes, lying on the floor. And Merit Weaver's screaming at him.

40:56Sean Fennessey:Yes, and a predator arrives at the door, and Dan welcomes him in, and mid-conversation, he transforms into Chris Hanson. Unbelievable. And this was one of the moments last night that got a very big laugh because it's kind of like, whoa. Oh, that's so interesting that it got a – that is a really heartbreaking scene to me. I think the movie is operating in that binary the whole time where it feels really sad and really funny. And it speaks to a little bit of like this issue with some things happening in repertory cinema right now where people are laughing at David Lynch movies at times. where they feel so uncomfortable or there's like an awkwardness in the sadness.

41:36Sean Fennessey:And this movie feels like it's kind of channeling a similar energy where you almost don't know what to do with yourself. I mean, there is that moment in the scene. So that scene also, basically everyone has been, the word is out on Craigslist and the address has been revealed. And so they think no one's coming. And that's why Chris Hansen is rolling around on the floor whining and being like, it's not about the money. And the Merit Weaver says, it is about the money, which is just great writing and true. But so someone hasn't gotten the memo and then it's revealed that this person is disabled and is like, I don't get out much.

42:14And so there's like a real sadness to the way they're portraying this person who is, you know, clearly there for upsetting things. And the way that you, and Skylar Gazondo as Dan is responding to all of that and telegraphing all of that in emotion and kind of you can see him doing the math in his head, which is, again, amazing acting. And then you watch him. So all of that to me is just like very, very sad and complicated. At the end of that scene, he does like run out of things to say, you know, and like basically forgets his line. And I guess that that is that's like the release valve for the scene and also being played for comedy.

42:56Sean Fennessey:That isn't what had people laughing. It was him nailing the quality. It was one, his kind of physical transformation where he rises and his posture becomes stiff and his vocal tone changes. And he is doing Pattinson doing Hanson. And you're right that there is something really sad about that. Almost like he's put up his defense mechanism because as he's processing the sadness. And like the movie drew this out of me while I was watching it, which is the men who are coming over to do these things are disturbed, right? There's something very sad and dark and painful about those desires and the things that they would do to helpless people, helpless children.

43:35Sean Fennessey:But the movie also keeps suggesting that these men keep being drawn out of their own privacy. They're being lured into these scenarios. And who knows what anyone would do if this scenario did not arise. but actually making an effort to pull them out of their privacy is its own form of destruction that is like very unhealthy and dark and there's no like clean way of understanding the morality of this in any direction but what they're doing is also not right and you can feel Dan like at war with himself in that scene thinking about that very feeling of like this guy probably should have just stayed in his house and if he had just stayed in his house things would have been a little bit different, at least tonight.

44:18Sean Fennessey:And I really like a movie that would provoke me to think about what that actually means and not have to have a thunderous opinion about what it actually does mean. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it starts the conversation and the questioning. And then also because it is not handing you on a platter. Here is what we think about this particular show, which was released from 2006 to whatever. Then you can also extrapolate it beyond on this particular situation and into what does this say about how TV is made, how we all consume culture, how we relate to, you know, what we see on a screen, what should be exposed, what, like, what is justice, et cetera, et cetera.

44:58Sean Fennessey:The other pathway that it takes you down in the aftermath of that sequence is that Hanson and the crew are in search because of ratings of the whale, of a big get of finding someone that's right who will represent a real like declaration of power taking someone down from inside the power structure of the world and that's because Lost has polar bears that's right they're fighting against Lost and did you watch Lost when it was on television no you never saw it I saw parts of it and I think I did see the last episode of my friend Stephanie tall Stephanie yeah I know Stephanie was like she and her now husband were like very into it okay so they got I got updates from them.

45:37But even then, it was sort of like, you know, they were having like a watch-along every week and doing that. And you know, I don't...

45:43Sean Fennessey:I had some watch-alongs in my home. Yeah. And you know, I just don't watch TV in that way. Even then. Even with a show like that. Even then. First three and a half seasons of that show, four seasons of that show. Yeah. Cooking. Unbelievable television. That's what everyone says. And it's well represented here. But this attempt to draw out the whale, that Matthew Marr plays this character, Xavier, who's sort of the chief enticer. He's a person who goes online and looks for people who are trying to engage in these activities. And he's trying to draw out someone that he believes to be, based on his own research online, a person within the government in some way.

46:20Sean Fennessey:And, you know, we can talk about what happens because it effectively forms the ending of the movie. But I thought, again, this was kind of an insightful way of drawing out a lot of the conspiracy-minded pursuits that we have in our culture now. You know, that we have QAnon and we have January 6th events and we have birther conspiracies and we have all these things over the last 10, 15 years of our national political culture that are all about like they're not really telling you what's going on. And these guys delude themselves in this moment into this exact scenario. Like they are a little micro version of this thing that we live with every day now in such a smart way.

46:54The scene that when that character is first introducing the concept of the whale and then Chris the Chris Hansen character goes. So the president and then there's just like I mean that is perfect comedy. And sometimes this movie really is just like look at these these bozos. Yes. And it's made me laugh.

47:15Sean Fennessey:But in fact, it is, I guess, is it a county judge or it's a district attorney who's running for county judge who's played by Alex Winner, the great Alex Winner, who, like Lance, is a documentarian as well. And the movie's final act is fascinating. And it didn't occur to me until last night or two nights ago that it's Zero Dark Thirty. You know, like the pursuit and the night vision and the weaponry and mounting cameras on guns. and this idea of taking someone down being as much spectacle as it is justice. And I thought it was really effective. The first time around, I don't think I quite, I don't know if I didn't get it, but I don't know if I quite locked in on what it was trying to accomplish because it is immediately preceded by this tale of traveling to India and the history of Pattinson's character's bracelet.

48:07Sean Fennessey:This idea of the monster, you know, that he's in pursuit of this ancient mythological demon that's kind of haunting the world. And I think I was a little hung up on that instead of the real sadness at the heart of this movie. What did you think about the ending? Well, there's also the scene in between, which is when they team up with the law enforcement because the Alex Winter character, the DA, has realized that he's given up too much information. And so he's deleting all his profiles. and so you know it's that very classic everything's on the line but they have to like they got to break their routine you know they can't follow protocol anymore they got to get wild they got to uh do you know they got to push the lines and everyone's in a room together Pattinson has just like an incredible moment when the Dan Plum character is on the phone setting the final bait and it's just it I mean it's all physical acting where he just points but he does like a full arch down to the crotch area.

49:14Sean Fennessey:I believe he says cock. And then he says cock. And then they go to a wide shot, like a Renaissance painting with Pattinson, like standing there with his arm arched just so. It's really, really very beautiful. I appreciated that editing choice. And so, and it's kind of like everybody crossing into the darkness, right? And then, and everybody, and even the Dan Plum character, he knows what's happening as he does it. And there's kind of like this sad sigh of like, okay, fine. The Dan character prior to that is having a intimate conversation, but not a sexual conversation with Alex Winter's character, the district attorney.

50:00And he's just talking about things that he likes, you know?

50:03Sean Fennessey:He's talking about Australia and going to a place that he really enjoys and musicals. Vegemite. Vegemite, right. Do you like Vegemite? And the movie has a complicated relationship with empathy, I would say, that it doesn't actually know who deserves it, if anyone. Right. And there's a reading of the movie that's like this fucking sad person sitting in his house, ostensibly representative of justice, has been like drawn. His darkest desires have been drawn and made public. And of course, the movie ends dramatically with the decision that he makes because of the guilt and fear and shame and all the things of what he actually hasn't followed through on leads him to take his life.

50:47Right.

50:48Sean Fennessey:And then we're kind of confronted with all these people, all these police officers, all these television producers and cameramen and this host and this actor. And they're all observing the aftermath of this. and Merritt Weaver's character is like I think I can make this work and this is like we can make this work on TV for an episode of our TV show this guy just died, this guy just killed himself you know it's not, this isn't pure docudrama it's totally a heightened escalation of whatever was transpiring during the production of a show like this but it also feels totally credible to me yeah of course that these people are so wrapped up in their own mania the Merritt Weaver moment right before that is that she's being courted for another job at ABC because of their success.

51:34And she goes back and forth with it. And then right before this raid, after she's been like, I need cameras on the guns. But before everything goes tragically wrong, she calls the rival network. She calls ABC and she's like, I decided that I don't want to. And that's the only answer, which is just beautiful and hilarious to me. but that these people are really, really so wrapped up in what they're doing and don't exist outside of it and have convinced themselves whether it's for some moral crusading on the part of the Chris Hansen character or whether it's just this is like what success and I'm the best at my job, the Merit Weaver character.

52:17Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Kind of the dark evil flip side of broadcast news. Yes. Yeah. And then it ends with the same way that it begins with the Chris Hansen character in almost like a trance state, just repeating the chat logs over and over again, like rehearsing them, but also like becoming them not in a sexual way, but just in the like that this has taken over his entire brain. Well, then he has the most chilling line from the entire movie, which is what would have happened if I wasn't here. Yeah. Which is something that he would say to, you know, potential predators as a signal of his power. And then obviously represents the impact that he had on somebody taking their own life.

53:01Sean Fennessey:And, yeah, really fascinating movie. And feels, God, if I was 13, this would have been my favorite movie of all time. I would have been like, this is just absolutely searing. And I've seen a lot of movies like this. And I love movies like this. So it's very much in my wheelhouse. I'm really, really interested to see how it goes into the culture. Because even talking to Lance, it's similar to what Zach Craig said on the show earlier this week, where he was like, movies are made of movies. And you can see that Lance is making movies out of movies. And he's constantly thinking about things that he likes, feelings that he had while he's watching things and porting them in.

53:35Sean Fennessey:And some of them are as clear as like, this kind of reminds me of Zero Dark Thirty. And some of them are more oblique than that. But I am interested to see if this is a movie that a lot of young people see and they're like, I've never seen a movie like this before. You know what I mean? Like something so dark and cynical and unforgiving, but also kind of funny and featuring a big movie star. You know what I mean? Like a movie like this can be quite powerful for a young audience. Totally. And for a young audience who maybe doesn't have the back history of the actual show or, you know, hasn't lived with the idea of Chris Hansen for 20 years, they can kind of go in as a blank slate.

54:12I'm curious for people who remember the show or people who have been sold this movie by, hey, it's Robert Pattinson being Chris Hansen. And, you know, more of the types of people embodied by Creed Bratton in this movie. And there's a robust spinoff culture of this still going on YouTube. Yeah, Hansen's still doing it himself. Yeah. So you start to wonder, like, what kind of audiences is this going to attract? and do people know what they're going to see, which is exciting.

54:44Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Yeah, I wonder how much of it will be looked at as like a time capsule piece versus something that feels really resonant today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's making great efforts to be a time capsule piece. I think this is a real Gen Z movie. I know you loved it, so what makes you say that? Well, Amanda was asking, oh, I'm curious how Lance discovered it. And for me personally, I'm five years younger. I vividly have memories of watching my mom on the living room couch, watching to catch a predator. And what would you do? John Quinones when he arrived. I fucking died and ascended into heaven.

55:16But I think it's a real Gen Z movie because not to spoil the whole conversation you have with Lance, but like he talks about when he first discovered him, he's kind of like a superhero. Like when you're young and you're viewing it and you don't kind of have like the ability to understand what's really going on. And as you grow up five years, 10 years, 15 years later, you have like a totally different relationship and understanding to him as a person what the show was attempting at large, I think it's really going to resonate

55:42Sean Fennessey:with younger audiences. Yeah, it's funny being in my mid-20s when the show was really on and popping. Like, I thought it was quite strange and I was not interested in spending any time with it. You know, like I was very aware of it because it was so popular, but there was no part of me that was like, we got to check it out this week. Maybe that's my own interest, but I thought it was odd. But I could see what you're saying, Jack. Same, but also I don't really watch a lot of reality TV now. Right. And this movie does, And this moment in culture does anticipate all of the things that we consume now and the different ways that we consume them.

56:17I mean, this is when it all met together. And now you have all of your network reality shows. You have your YouTube. You have your social media. You have everything but AOL Instant Messenger. Yeah.

56:29Sean Fennessey:You missed that? I mean, listen, when I was on it, I was thriving. You know, like that was a great medium for me. I just absolutely owned this case. Because you were so charming and clever? Yes. Yeah, okay. But, you know, it's fine now. We just have text messages. So, I'm great. I'm posting. I'm living my life. I don't want to explore AIM with you anymore. Away messages? Yes, of course. Yeah, of course. Certainly. Sure. Me as well. It feels like maybe this movie is going to do really well over this weekend, which I find quite fascinating. Well, yeah. So, I think the young crowd plus the people who are like, hey, Chris Hansen, I know who that is.

57:09And then they don't know what they've gotten themselves into. So CinemaScore will be interesting.

57:14Sean Fennessey:Uh-huh. But I don't care. It's a dark and grimy movie. Yeah. And at times it feels like a horror movie. Yes. I definitely don't care about CinemaScore. It's commercial prospects fascinate me because as we've been saying about patents in the last six months or so, this is what you're supposed to do when you're him. Yeah. Absolutely. Do Dune Part 3. Do the Batman Part 2. Absolutely. I'm on board with that. Good projects for IP. Good filmmakers. Going to watch them. I'm really excited about both of those movies. Do the Odyssey. Do the Odyssey. It's Nolan. You got to do it. Supporting part makes sense.

57:48Sean Fennessey:But like also this. Also this. Like this movie only exists probably because Robert Pattinson wanted to do it. It probably doesn't happen if not for him. And so we're at least not at this scale. And so if he's able to draw people out the same way he drew people out for the drama. It does like it cleaves open a little bit of new terrain. And then what you see is like, I was listening to the Mahershala conversation too. Yeah. And he's like, you have to do it yourself. I like that part a lot. And Zach referenced talking to Pattinson about this, where he was like, you think you like achieve something and everyone's going to start calling you and be like, here's all the good projects with the good filmmakers.

58:25Yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:26Sean Fennessey:But in fact, what Pattinson does is he's like very curious, watches a lot of movies and then seeks out potential collaborators and like connects with people who have ideas for movies. Right. That's like what Paul Newman did. You know, like you have to do that if you want to go to the next level and be great. And also, I think elevate the intellectual capacity of the movie going audience. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. That does require taste, curiosity and work. Like there is, there is a lot of work in that as well. And so not everybody can do it, but it's cool that we have someone as talented as Pattinson who does clearly want to do it.

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1:00:04Sean Fennessey:Do you think it's going to make money? I hope so. I mean, I don't think it's, you know, going to make... Well, do I think it'll make more money than the Avengers Endgame release? I would be stunned if it did. The whole box office... How much is an Infinity Vision ticket these days? $97. No, I'm just kidding. I was like, really? It's like, in LA, probably$23, something like that. Okay. So it's the same that I paid for my sneak preview screening of Verity. Yeah. Did you get one of those? I got one of those for Wednesday night. Yossi's going with me because you'll be on a plane. I'll be seeing it solo in New York at the Lincoln Center AMC.

1:00:40Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Well, Lincoln Plaza AMC. That has its pleasures as well. I love that place. Yeah. I wish I didn't have to go up nine floors to see a movie there, but otherwise I love that place. You have to do that at the Alamo and you never complain. You're right. But that's in my car. That's a totally different story. No, then there are more escalators with no windows anywhere and, you know, and bad food. It's fine. Yeah. It's fine. Awards? So I stand by what we said on Best Picture rankings, which is that I think it is honestly just a little too out there, parentheses, complimentary for Best Picture.

1:01:20Okay. I think Skylar Gazondo and supporting actor has a real chance. And then I wonder if Pattinson gets supporting for Odyssey and then they're in the category together. That would be cute. But not in the, you know, they're both leads in this. And I like the.

1:01:40Sean Fennessey:What's going on in best supporting actor these days? It's a great question. I don't really know what that race looks like. Sam Rockwell, right? He's in there. Yeah, that's got to be an automatic. He's wonderful. Leguizamo also in The Odyssey, right? Oh, sure. Yeah. Giamatti. Haven't seen it yet. Ed Norton. I would really like that to happen. Okay, let's talk about La Bola Negra very quickly. Guitarica De La Fuente. Yes. Who is one of the stars of the film. Yes. Is a potential contender. Which, yeah, which guy? He's the guy from the first story.

1:02:22Hold on. Let's not even spoil it. No, no. I'm just Googling the cast. Yeah, that guy. Eyelashes.

1:02:33Sean Fennessey:If that's what you want to call him. Yeah. He's a very beautiful man. They are incredible eyelashes. A beautiful Spanish actor. Okay, so he's in it for supporting. I think they're all going to go into supporting in that movie. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think that what Netflix should do is gather as many of the men cast in this movie. Like, we're speaking roles without them. Just gather as many as you can and just take them from place to place for five months. Yeah. And then people will be like, woo, the Bola Negra. The filmmakers are also beautiful. Yeah, I know, I know. Los Hives. So, okay, in front of and behind the screen.

1:03:08Sean Fennessey:Yeah, yeah. That's great. Did you like La Bola Negra? I did very much. Yeah, it's kind of undeniable. I mean, you know, like I have there. I can't wait to talk about it with you and I can't wait for other people to see it. And I hope that I'm glad it's getting a large theatrical run because seeing it. I sat in the very front row so it could be as big as possible. Got to see it on a big screen. But yeah, I was just there were so many times and I was like, wow, I can't believe that this is happening. Yeah, it's a it's a yeah. At times it is a real wow of a movie. Absolutely. OK, I'm relieved to hear you say that in some ways.

1:03:43You thought I wasn't going to like it? No, but you know what?

1:03:48Sean Fennessey:You'll zag sometimes. Every once in a while. I mean, again, there are some funny choices that I can't wait to discuss. It's not a perfect movie by any means, but it can be a real wow at times. Any closing thoughts on Primetime? Excited for people to see it. I'm excited to see Lance Ammonheim's other movie, which you did not discuss during this. No. He briefly mentions You Can See Everything, which is the Holmes doc. and we'll just have a whole episode about that movie, which is coming out on October 16th, and that'll be fun. Maybe Lance will come back. You know, you never know. That would be great.

1:04:22Sean Fennessey:Okay, speaking of, let's go to my conversation now with Lance Oppenheim.

1:04:30Sean Fennessey:Lance Oppenheim is back. What's up, buddy? Hey, man, this is great. Congratulations. An honor, an honor to be here. You're at the absolute center of movie culture for the next few weeks. How are you feeling? Crazy. Yeah. Insane. hoping I don't fuck everything up. But no, this is great. And this is, you know, as you know, my favorite podcast. I listen religiously. Thank you, Lance. So I have like a parasocial relationship with you and Amanda. It's okay. Don't worry about it. That's very upsetting. I'll keep it private for me. Please try to, yes. This is about you. This is not about me. I don't remember when you were last on the show if we talked about whether or not making feature films was always the goal.

1:05:08Sean Fennessey:And if we did, forgive me, But like, I kind of want to hear a little bit about because you've spent the last six, seven years working on documentary. And now you are pivoting into a realm of documentary that is clearly scripted and an imagined feature world. So was this like on the roadmap along the way? It's a good question. I mean, yes and no. I've always liked narrative films. I've always liked documentaries. I've always liked movies that mix the two, like close up Abbas Kirstami and Effer Fake, Worson Wallace. I've always been interested in that experience. I've also, with the documentaries I've made, in some ways, at least the ones before primetime, they sort of feel to me almost like the intention was to make human drama feel like Hollywood drama and use a lot of the same narrative techniques that exist in fiction films, but apply them to the world of nonfiction, which is what used to be more commonplace in the 60s, even the Maisels.

1:06:06Even Frederick Wiseman would consider himself not a documentary filmmaker, but just as a filmmaker. But a little bit, I guess, like this thing came about in such an organic way. And I always was interested in seeing what would happen if I could take the same people I normally work with, like my DP, David Bowen, and my editor, Dan Garber, and my composer, Ari Blues, and have like my pod, my band of collaborators and like, you know, make something. But now I guess it's like, this is such a stupid way to think about it, but I go both ways. I'm like bisexual for documentaries and movies, even though I'm a heterosexual married man.

1:06:41But I go, yeah, I'm interested in wherever the juice is.

1:06:46Sean Fennessey:Was it hard to convince people to let you make a scripted film? Because I think that even if you're bisexual for both, most executives and people who think about the movie business can't see that there's overlap. You know, that there's like a demarcation structurally in the business and even in the art form that you don't see a lot of crossover. And I was thinking about, you know, Barbara Koppel has made one scripted film. Errol Morris has made one scripted film. Like, there have not been a lot of transitions from great film, great film documentarians. So, did you encounter any challenges? Like, what was it like trying to make that shift?

1:07:19Years before this one, yes. I remember there was another film I was, like, attempting to get off the ground at one point that I think people had just made some kind of heaven. I hadn't made Spermworld or Renfair yet. And I remember it was a little bit, there was a lot more pushback and a lot of, like, okay, if you're going to make it this way, you have to work within this framework. And here's the production designer, the DP. And I was like, no, no, no, no. I got to make this my own way. So I kind of, I didn't do that. But with this project, I think a large part of it goes back to like, you know, Rob who produced this movie and we connected over, you know, a different project.

1:07:54We were going to make a documentary together. And then I showed him a cameo video that my wife got me of Chris Hansen congratulating me on this. I'll tell you about it, but congratulate me on the release of sperm world this is like 2024 well before i ever got the screenplay or anything for this i even didn't know i didn't ever knew this movie existed um but we bonded and we were talking a lot about other movies like ivan's ecstasy and kind of like he's a very adventurous film goer and kind of voracious film watcher um and so anyway having him on my side was helpful and in some ways you know like i think 824 was very i'd been i'd known a lot of people there.

1:08:32I used to work there. I was an intern for Noah Sacco and Allie Herding, like in, I think 2014. And I would keep in touch with everybody over the years and just be like, look, I'm making documentaries, but it's like sperm world. It's not just a movie about guys jerking off in a cup. It's like, there's more to it than that. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's about the depths of the, you know, the complexity of the human soul and people be like, okay, okay. But then people like you would come along and I'd be able to come on your show and talk about the movies or the show, Ren Faire. And I think that actually helped a lot too, just the perception of them not being just kind of narrowly in one zone.

1:09:07And I do think there is like a marketplace now, much more so than like many years ago. You know, people want documentary experiences. Every actor I've ever met is obsessed with documentaries. Most narrative filmmakers I know are obsessed with documentaries. Most like narrative filmmakers I love, like they're, you know, yeah, of course there's, there's a few people who only made one narrative film, but I think about Herzog. Bennett Miller, you know, he came, made The Cruise. Sarah Pauly, she kind of has made so many great ones. Michael Aptid, who made the 7-Up series, you know, he directed James Bond.

1:09:37Absolutely. Which Bond movies? He did like two or three of them, I think. God,

1:09:43Sean Fennessey:Tomorrow Will Never Die. we'll look that up later. Kubrick, you know, he had his hand in some, you know, John Huston. I feel like there's actually a fairly rich world between those things. You're right. You're right. And even like the Safdies and Josh and Benny, them kind of also laying down the groundwork. I really got hooked on them with Lenny Cook. That was the movie of theirs. Yeah, Lenny Cook's fucking amazing. It's an incredible, incredible film. No, it's true. I think it's because a lot of the filmmakers that you just noted, maybe they didn't totally start in feature films, but we associate them most with feature films.

1:10:18Sean Fennessey:We don't associate them with documentaries. But the thing about this movie that is so interesting is that while it is not documentary, and I guess would you even describe it as docudrama is an interesting question because of the way that it is based on a piece of journalism. But it is heightened in the same way that your documentary films are heightened and it is kind of outsized emotionally and even in the incidents that are portrayed. So how do you think about that in terms of representing the truth versus what's real? Well, I feel like, you know, it's, I'm always interested in like the creative expression of, it's like the, of, of reality, right?

1:10:51And that's like nonfiction. I always found the non and nonfiction to be a very reductive term because all nonfiction, you know, in some ways, at least like every great documentary, there is a structure, there is like most documentarians credit their editors as, as, as writers, because you're, you're shaping, you know, a story out of reality, unless something actually does happen in in front of you and unfolds. So I, I, I mean, to me, I, I would have, I wanted to make something that felt like sort of like almost like the contact high I experienced from watching this television show as a kid to catch a predator, which to me is like one of the great experiments in mixing truth and fiction and artifice and reality.

1:11:37Like, you know, the way Chris Hansen, And like, it could have just been a very dry investigative news show into this, like the darkest subject matter of all time. But instead he innovated and he hired these adult actors to pretend to be children. And he like found these suburban houses that looked like they were out of blue velvet. But then he like, you know, I don't know, he like started moving the furniture around until everything looked like it was like beamed in from Mars, like the bar floating into the the middle of a living room and these props like the pepperoni pizzas and the sweet tea and the cookies, all that stuff would collide with like a very high stakes real situation.

1:12:15So as a kid, I was always interested in almost the like the theatricality of it, the darkness, the darkest expressions of human behavior mixed with this almost like surrealist, um, let the levity that would come from Chris and the way he would perform, you know, when, when he'd, when he'd be dismantling somebody's life on camera. And I saw the show, like, you know, I name checked, you know, after fake and close up, I saw the show before I ever saw any great documentary that would, or, you know, kind of hybrid movie that was mixing those things. So I think it really was the first experience I ever had seeing something that mixed those two things.

1:12:50And how old were you when you first saw it? I think I was like 11, 11 years old. And I remember discovering it through South Park because I saw that, that great episodes where everyone keeps, you know, yeah, Yeah. They keep seeing Chris Hansen and they can't stop committing suicide. That was like, I remember just being like, who is this guy? And he was portrayed on the show as this man with like almost mystical powers. And when I finally watched the show, I was like, damn, he kind of does have mystical powers. He has this like, um, this, this, almost this way of being that like he's, he's the grand, like grandmaster of this reality he has created in this constructed, manufactured, worlds.

1:13:29And I was always thinking about what that would, what would that do to you if you experienced that on an everyday basis? And like, you know, I love Jacob's Ladder and I kept thinking, you know, it'd be so interesting to do like a Descent into Madness movie that's, you know, more or less defined and driven by like the emotional toll that the darkness would take on somebody. So I liked that part of it. And I knew if I made something like this, I'd have to do something that was like stranger than stranger than fiction. I couldn't just do the like, you know, the classic docudrama or biopic. I don't think that was what like a Joan saying who wrote the script and Rob and I were interested in.

1:14:06We wanted to make like a fever dream that felt closer to the experience of watching the show. Right.

1:14:12Sean Fennessey:The being 11 and watching the show. Like, honestly, what did you make of it at that time? Like, did you feel like he was a crusading figure? Did you feel like he was this kind of like dark vampiric grandmaster? Like, did you have a sense really of, and even of what was being actually portrayed? Because, you know, part of the wonder of the movie is the, wow, this was actually what the show was. And this was on prime time and millions of people were truly invested in watching it. And part of it is the sense that it probably took a person who had that sense of theatricality and narcissism to pull it off in the first place.

1:14:48Sean Fennessey:So like when you were a kid, did you think like this is a heroic act that this man is contributing well yeah i think so i remember being really confused i was like is this like i loved like cribs and punkts you know on mtv and i was like is this a prank show and then you know i started watching more of it and i was like no i think this is like a news program and i started learning who mike wallace was and it's like okay i guess this is like sort of closer to that but there was something almost like carnival-esque or like the circus it felt like that where chris hansen was a ring the ringleader of it i definitely thought as a kid that like he felt like such like a badass and almost his like one one liners and these catchphrases he came up with were like Tony Montana and Scarface and there was this kind of like um yeah he was doing a really heroic thing um in this kind of bigger than life super-sized sort of way he felt like a superhero to me so I think it was only until later I mean obviously as I, as I got older, I was thinking about like, you know, it was so weird that that was so funny.

1:15:49Like it's such a fucked up show. It's such a, these men are so fucked up. They're so scared. There's disturbed. I mean, there's a lot of really disturbing behavior. That's like, you know, that these people that come into his house are trying to do. But I kept thinking about how like the artifice of it was so odd and sometimes like funny to me, just like even the way the decoys would act did not seem like, you know, like a 30 year old actor attempting to be like a 12 year old is like, that doesn't make any, it doesn't really make any sense. It was almost like a fun house or like a, this sort of hall of mirrors thing going on.

1:16:21But it really wasn't until I got that cameo from my, when my wife got me, you know, in 2024, that was, that was the first time something really crystallized for me where I was like, you know, cause in the video, he, he congratulated me on sperm world. He said he'd check it out. I don't think he ever did, but that's okay. I won't blame him. Maybe he will now. Maybe he will now. Then he asked me to have a seat. And then he started plugging all of these different new investigations he was doing. And I thought, man, this is the guy I grew up with who I thought was this crusader. But now he's embraced this strange, hyper-performative version of himself.

1:16:56It's almost like he had seen all the memes that existed in the cultural mythology that had grown out from underneath him. and he's attempting to adopt it and bring it into the new investigations he does. And that felt really strange to me. And I started watching more of the cameos because some of them are public. And he called in one of them, he called the guy a certified flex offender. And I remember just being like, man, this is so crazy. You could pay him like$35 and he'll pretend that you're like a child's predator or something. Like there's something that seems so odd about this and confusing.

1:17:33Like, what would it be like to be Chris Hansen where you have to essentially code switch all the time between being, yeah, like, you know, someone that is essentially like a vigilante who's doing this, doing the work of, you know, of getting these really fucked up people off the streets or being a guy who's basically like P.T. Barnum and like a circus entertainer or, you know, someone who has fun and kind of makes jokes about sort of the whole enterprise and is sort of in on the joke of how people see him.

1:18:02Sean Fennessey:And there's a third leg of that discussion, though, too, which is explored somewhat in your film, which is sort of the role of television journalism and the way that there's like a certain band of television journalists that you kind of get filed away into not as serious as Stone Phillips. Yeah. And I really enjoy the Stone Phillips quality of the movie. But that sort of like the suggestion that at least in the world of the movie, that this kind of destroys him in a way because he's not quite at the mountaintop of credibility or prestige. And so then he's sort of forced to embrace the thing that you're good at, which is I think actually quite a relatable thing.

1:18:41Sean Fennessey:And I'm really interested in this in terms of what Pattinson is doing in his performance and how you guys talked about the character and how you are directing the actors. because Hanson seems like a nut bar. I think most people will be like, this is just a crazy person. But there's like a little shred of empathy for him. That's like, he kind of got himself into this position. There's a level of success where he's being told that he's great and doing something important. You have that incredible scene in the film where Creed Bratton is talking to him on the airplane. And you can feel Pattinson kind of like reckoning with his own success and what his responsibility in the world is.

1:19:15Sean Fennessey:And it's this mixture of joy and pride and doubt and disregard for the self that I just thought was really, really interesting. So, like, how do you think about portraying him then where it's like he does seem like kind of a ghoul at times in the movie. But at other times you're like, well, he got himself trapped in this lifestyle. And there's no way out based on what he wants for his life. well I mean the thing that we had that you know I mean we were able to sort of look at the man as he exists today and not just that but also all of the media that he has continued to create and have that inform the portrait and even I mean it's really interesting like right now his reaction to the movie I don't think he's still seen it but you know the A24 attempted to screen it for him he didn't sign this like fairly standard NDA and he went on Fox News which he had had planned that night.

1:20:08Talked to Jesse Walters about it. Jesse Walters? Waters? I think Waters. Waters? Okay, there we go. You can be the subject of your next film. There's something very interesting to me, even the way that he has sort of responded to the film. At first, before that, I saw videos of him at CrimeCon, and he was like, you know, you may think I'm Robert Pattinson, but I'm actually Chris Hansen. So he was having fun with it. And then over time, it's basically entered this, like now it's in this moral register where he's essentially tying this to sort of a larger critique of how Hollywood goes about making things.

1:20:45And that's really interesting to me. And in a lot of ways it rhymes, I think, with a lot of the things we were thinking about when we were writing the movie and when I was talking with Rob about the movie, one of the big interviews that we were thinking about too is when Chris Hansen went on Conan O 'Brien's late night show. And, you know, you could tell that Conan is attempting to sort of like, how do I talk to this guy who's, you know, like doing really serious journalistic work, but like I'm making a late night show that has jokes in it. And you see Chris sort of respond to it by also making jokes about himself and, you know, the guys who, you know, eat the cookie when he talks to them, that sort of thing.

1:21:25I mean, to me, it was always like, I never wanted to make something that felt like a hit piece or anything like that. I really have a lot of respect for Chris. And again, I come into this as a fan of his show and mystified by him. I think seeing the cameos and seeing just the way in which he engages with his fans, I felt like I was actually seeing in those videos maybe who the real person was, who in one breath could be a crusader, could be a vigilante, could be an entertainer, could be, you know, on cameo next to Mark McGrath, you know, from Sugar Ray or whatever. And I thought that was really interesting.

1:22:02And he seems like not ashamed of it. He seems almost like emboldened by it. And, you know, for me, I think when I think about Chris, I also think like, you know, he wasn't just doing To Catch a Predator for his entire career. He had done many, many other, in many cases, Emmy award winning like segments. You know, he reported on 9-11. He did something about white boy Rick. He, um, I mean the list goes on and on Oklahoma city bomber. Like he, he was there for, he was basically the guy that you wouldn't want to see on TV when something bad happened because you know, you'd see him associate. It's like something terrible would have happened and he would have been there.

1:22:34Yeah.

1:22:34Sean Fennessey:But he's like this canary in the coal mine for America's prurient interest. You know, that there's this idea that the thing that makes him most famous is his, his theatrical quality in terms of exploring this show, like building this show, which then tells us, you know, and it does feel like that is very much at the forefront of the idea of the movie. It's like, this kind of shows us a portal to where we're headed over time in terms of what we want from our entertainment. And, you know, it has been talked about quite a bit and dramatized in movies before, you know, going back to Face in the Crowd and Network.

1:23:07Sean Fennessey:And there are a lot of movies that are kind of about how there's always this figure at the center of our media culture who is like loudly yelling at us about what we really want. and they're usually right. I'm curious, like, how much did you think about those movies in the past or like, do they intersect at all with what you're trying to portray about? Because it's a movie that's set in the past, but also feels very much about now. Absolutely. I mean, you know, my favorite movie of all time is Ace in the Hole, the Billy Wilder movie. And I remember seeing that as a kid thinking like, man, this is like, I was so inspired.

1:23:39I just wanted to get up out of my seat and just go and try and make something that, you know, attempted to touch that. So it's always in the back of my mind, that movie and Kirk Douglas in it.

1:23:47Sean Fennessey:He's a real analog for Pattinson's performance too. Yeah, it's funny. I remember like trying to show that to Rob throughout the making of it. He's just like, I don't want to watch that. And I was like, why? And he's just like, because I have other things to do. So we would watch other movies. Like I remember with Rob, we watched Sexy Beast together. I showed, you know, I'm obsessed with Demon Lover, the Olivia Seas film. We were obsessed with Scarface. Jerry Maguire was another one. A lot of Oliver Stone movies too, just like Natural Born Killers, U-Turn. Michael Bay's movies even, like Pain and Gain, that was another one.

1:24:19You know, we were interested in just like, what are other movies? Body Double. These are all like narcissistic mania movies, though. You know, they're all just like the collapse of the self. The collapse of the self. I think also like Descent Into Madness movies like Jacob Slatter. Like I was really, the thing that I would talk to Rob a lot about was like, how do you essentially, you know, like it's sort of a conceptual performance. You're playing not, you're not playing the real Chris Hansen. I don't know if the real Chris Hansen exists anymore. I think the man has become the meme at this point.

1:24:47So you have to play every version of Chris Hansen that's ever existed. And in a way, it almost has to be like a media collage of not just Chris from To Catch a Predator or Predator Raw or Hansen vs. Predator or Take Down with Chris Hansen. Or, you know, you name all the investigations, which we all watch together. You have to play also the parodies of Chris Hansen. You have to play the Chris Hansen that went on, you know, with Conan O 'Brien during the Emmys or on 30 Rock. You have to play the guy that's also sort of aware of where he's going. And I think he did it. And he also stitched a lot of humanity of himself into the character.

1:25:22Like, I think one of the reasons maybe Rob was so drawn to it, I don't want to psychoanalyze him. He should do that himself. But I think a lot, like, you know, he was living at the Oakwood apartment complex, I think, like, circa 2007, 2008. He first discovered this show through a meme from a friend from the UK. It was pilot season. he was striking out. And then, you know, he became this like internationally world famous person that once Twilight, I remember he talked about going to Comic-Con and suddenly it was like his life had completely changed overnight. And there was a, there was this kind of a narrative that was starting to exist around him of who he should be and how, how he should act in, in, in, in life and fans that have, you know, ideas of him.

1:26:07And, and the, the, the idea of like a person versus the persona, I think, became very familiar to Rob. So maybe a part of him wanting to do this was to get in communion with that idea. I do remember the second week of shooting, I thought he had done so much. I felt like Rob in the character. I was seeing Rob, and I thought that was really interesting, even though it was in this very refracted way. And he's like, how do you think we're doing? And I was like, I think we're doing good. And he's like, what do you think I'm doing? And I'm like, well, you definitely are doing Chris Hansen, but I think you're also doing Jerry Maguire and Dracula.

1:26:41And I'm like, are you aware that you're doing that? And he's like, no, no. I was just like, okay, that's fine. Let's just keep going with it. And I felt like that actually was like perfect for what the movie needed to be. And I think ultimately like the movie needed to be something too that was, I didn't want it to be like glib. I actually did really want it to be like a, almost like an institutional portrait of all these people that were inside the apparatus when the show was becoming very successful and all of them were dealing with the pressure of turning this like very, like the darkest thing ever into a commercial object.

1:27:16And how did that affect them? Like spiritually, psychologically, what happens when you spend like 24 hours, you know, 24 seven, you spend more time with like child predators than you do with your own family. Like that has to affect you somehow. And I know Rob, the last thing I'll say, I'm talking way too much, forgive me. He went on - That's why you're here. He, we were like, during the research phase, he listened to Theo Vaughn's interview with Chris Hansen on his podcast. And Theo Vaughn asked him a question that was like, how do you deal with like the darkness? And Chris Hansen responded, I just bury, bury it all, like all the way down.

1:27:51And he talked about how he didn't have a therapist and he just kind of deal, like he has his own way of processing it. That was a huge thing for us. Cause we heard that and we were like, that's really interesting that's ultimately like there's there's there's a real mystery around how how someone could do this you can't experience the horror that he's experienced and not be a changed person so that was like always kind of haunting or hovering over the movie and we knew the film had to sort of touch on that almost like the way rob plays him has to almost be like a guy that's possesses some sort of like post-traumatic stress and it's like it affects his physicality and where where he goes and how he does stuff.

1:28:30I'm curious for you, the meaningful, like structural,

1:28:35Sean Fennessey:literal differences between making something like Ren Faire and making something like this. Like, does it feel when you're on set completely different because the scale of the production or because you're directing actors as opposed to talking to real people from whom you're trying to get interesting conversation material? Like how, literally, how did it feel different for you? well I mean the one thing when you're making a documentary it's almost like the screenplay is is life right so it's like I'm I'm seeing things I get to know people really well um you spend a lot of time you have a lot more time like hundreds of days primetime was like a 30-day shoot Renfair was like 130 days you know um with this with a with with primetime the real challenge was like how do you keep this alive and how do you how do I not just show up and just shoot like lines off a page.

1:29:21Like, you know, the script was, was really great. And I always had that the tone was there and we really worked hard to, to sculpt that together, Joan and I, but you know, he, he did so much great work with it. To me, it was like, let's, how do I, how do I keep this fresh and alive and exciting? And so part of it ended up coming, you know, just like maybe I was definitely prepared, but I had a, my son was born five days before the shoot started. My cinematographer, David Bowen, who shot Sperm World, Some Kind of Heaven, I've been working with him since I was 17. you know, he shot listed the movie more or less in isolation while I was dealing, you know, with my newborn son.

1:29:57I got to set and I was like, I don't want to shot list anything. Let's just throw that away. I want the actors to come in. I don't want to do any rehearsals. I don't want to know how Rob's going to play this. I don't know. I don't want to know how Skylar or Merritt or Phoebe or I want to just get there. And I want to block it with as minimal sort of like performance as possible. I just want to know where they're going to go. And then I really want to just make space for us to really get in concert with them, with the performers. And that was a really, I think that was the way we sort of reclaimed the experience.

1:30:31And, you know, there was like so many different moments that I just could not predict what would happen or Rob going and doing the mouthwash and spitting it out in the sink like that. Like, I remember just thinking, like, I just need to create space for everybody. And I want to treat everyone as much as they allow me to as almost like a documentary subject. I'll talk with them exhaustively before we get there about what I think it is. And then I want them to show me things. And then also just shooting it like with, you know, we shot with like 20 camera formats. So that drove the production nuts.

1:31:01I feel like everyone was looking at me like I was Tommy Wiseau or something, but it was really great. And it did keep things super fresh. And I think for the performers, just like it was really, it just created so much like chaos constantly. And that's what I would tell the crew and the production I had. I'd be like, we're making a movie about people, about a production that is like spiraling out of control. We can't fake that. We have to sort of like live it a little bit too.

1:31:28Sean Fennessey:That's Herzogian right there. That's really fascinating that you have the confidence to go in and not only tear apart some plan, but like kind of go in blind and say, let's see what happens. I think that's really fascinating. The other thing that is interesting, and we talked about this a little bit when I saw you in Colorado, we've talked so much about Chris Hansen, but the movie does sort of shift in terms of who it's about and whose perspective is more centered as the movie goes on. And Skyler's character becomes almost like the perspectival character by the end of the movie. And I'm kind of curious, like, did it always start out that way?

1:32:03Sean Fennessey:How did it evolve as you were making the movie too? too well i always loved that that character in the esquire article that this is like very loosely you know based from um the article was about the it was it was largely centered in the perspective of like a 20 year old actor who had no idea um it was just wanting to be in things couldn't land any parts um showed up on the set of to catch predator and very quickly realized what they had gotten themselves into and attempted to kind of keep up with it just because there could have been an opportunity, but then by the end was just like devastated by the whole experience and hollowed, you know, like spiritually corrupted a little bit.

1:32:42So I always loved that perspective. And I, I felt like, you know, this is a movie about like essentially turning like darkness into, into something fun or entertainment. That's what they were doing. And I was like, I need to find the humanity here. I need to find someone that could essentially save the film from just being like, I don't know, just, just like totally ink black. It needed to have something, some, some sort of light to it. You know, so I would talk with a Joan about like, we love, you know, Wall Street, the Gordon Gekko, Bud Fox relationship. Bud Fox is really the main character of, of Wall Street.

1:33:21And I was sort of like, that's kind of a fun Trojan horse for this movie where, you know it is like a three-hander between uh rob you know chris hansen merit weaver's character andy and and dan uh scholar's character decoy dan um but i liked that that like that that relationship between you know chris and dan there were so many parts to it that felt like gravitational i also love the stuntman and i felt like that was another kind of interesting like you know um i don't know yeah this this sort of dynamic between these two people that have disparate ambitions. And Skyler was just like, I, I remember when I first read the scripts, I like, I, I just, you know, it changed, but I just, I saw Skyler, it was like the after image of all Skyler Gazzando's performances were in my head when I read it.

1:34:08And I felt like he was, I just was like, I need to make this for him. I like, he is born for this part. And he's been in movies and TV shows since he was like six years old. I knew that he was going to have a way into this that was going to be like documentary-like in a way where, you know, he could sort of bring his own experiences to the movie. And he did. Like, he didn't just do it on the page or just, you know, as an actor. He, like the ending of the movie, the last scene of the movie was born from a conversation I had with him, like almost a year into, you know, deep into production, post-production.

1:34:42We were editing it. The movie ended a different way prior to that. And I was like, I want this to have, I don't want this to be pure nihilistic. I want it to be like positively nihilistic. Does that make sense? No, that's exactly where you hit.

1:34:54Sean Fennessey:That's exactly how it feels. That's so interesting to hear you say that. Then you have these other like small but very notable choices. For example, you know, you mentioned Phoebe Bridgers is in the film operating in a similar fashion to Decoy Dan. Jonathan Limnicki shows up. Yeah. Jeff Zucker shows up. Like these kind of like signals to those of us who might notice, who might recognize. As you mentioned, Jerry Maguire, that's maybe didn't put together that that's part of the click there. But can you talk about like how to balance making that a good artistic choice versus just like jingling keys in front of somebody's face and how you consider it?

1:35:26Well, I mean, I look for, I think part partially I was like, this is a movie about, it's like it's 20 years ago, 2006. It's like things look different than that was, you know, I'm a, I'm a zillennial. That's what, is that what a real term? I was 96. Yeah. Like my favorite movie outside of Ace in the Hole is Vanilla Sky. I know. I love that about you. I'm attracted to this period.

1:35:49Sean Fennessey:These are my favorite movies of all time. I got to tell you, I was here with Zach Greger yesterday, and we were talking about you, and he was like, that guy's favorite movie is Vanilla Sky. How crazy is that? And I was like, I think when we first met, that was one of the first things he said to me. You're like, one of my favorite movies is Vanilla Sky. I also love Vanilla Sky. Fucking thank God, man. It's so good. Yeah, it's like, I know if I can get along with somebody if they like, if they love that movie. It's David, my DP, and my, it's both of our favorite films. It's really great. It's really, I don't know if it's misunderstood so much as like, there's a collective of us that like, we get it.

1:36:18I know, it's like at this point, it's been in culture for long enough. But I do think it's like, I actually weirdly even parts of that movie are, maybe spiritually in this too, of just like a film that kind of straddles a lot of different genres and it refuses to kind of exist in one of them. But no, I mean, you know, I think about that time period, there's so many amazing actors that have been not left behind, like they've been doing great work for a while. But like Jonathan is somebody who, you know, was a child actor. And also, you know, when I met him, he had sort of been like, I don't know if I want to keep acting.

1:36:48He was doing an acting school. He was interested in producing. But he's like, I have fallen out of love, fallen out of love with just doing it. And I haven't really gotten any interesting parts that have come my way. Alex Winter, an amazing actor. Also a great documentary filmmaker, too. And I was just like, you know, Creed Bratton. And I've always, I remember watching The Office thinking like, how has this guy not been, I remember like hearing Nicholas Winding Refn talk about Albert Brooks when he saw him in Lost in America and thinking about how he'd be a great villain for Drive. And I was like, how has no one made Creed until like, you know, he's sort of a sinister presence.

1:37:23So I kept thinking about all these people that I've always just kind of like bookmarked. Jessica Hecht, who's so amazing in Sideways, like broke my heart, a billion pieces, also has been, was in Friends. And I hate to admit it, but I was more of a Friends guy than Seinfeld growing up. Wow. Yeah, you are a Zillennial. And, you know, just like so many little pieces like that. I mean, ultimately it was like, I didn't want to just do stunt cast after stunt cast. I wanted to like meet people and just see if I could get along with them and access something.

1:37:49Sean Fennessey:But it makes us feel something as the viewer, you know? There's an association and you don't totally know what that association is. Some of it is more overt than others, but Jessica Hecht is a great example of like, this does remind me of broadcast television from the 1990s, you know? That's a very powerful tool to use that is somewhere between the conscious and the subconscious. Absolutely. And I love just being able to— Every person just had—they would bring baggage of every character they'd played before. And just the texture of knowing what that time was like. And Bokeem Woodbine, another person who just was so incredible.

1:38:22And I think Matthew Mayer, another person who was just— Every person that came in, I knew—I don't know if Rob knew it as much. I think when he I remember when he first saw the like the first cut of the movie he was like wow I didn't realize this is an ensemble movie but to me I was always making an ensemble movie and I always knew that like the only way for this to work was to basically have like there's a line in Chris Hansen's book protecting your children from online enemies already in your home but I've I've been so deep into this shit for so long I just I know I know it's not a very elegant title I've always loved the title of it but he has this this description about like the production being like a clown car with all these different personalities.

1:39:01And he said that if there was a television crew following them, it would feel like real worlds. Or I think it was, yeah, it was real world. So I took that to heart and I was like, I really need to make sure that almost every person in this movie is almost cut from like a different reality, you know, and has like their own relationship to reality. And I think could sort of enhance this sort of, this, this like whatever, whatever we ended up doing, like the network, uh, you know, uh, version of like a circus nightmare. Like that was, I felt like what the atmosphere was like that they had created.

1:39:37Um, but everyone brought something so special to it. And I think that was, I really want, like, I sat down with everybody. I had my time with each person. I got to know them and I got to ask them questions about their lives and pull that into the, into the character, into the script, Merit Weaver was like very gracious with that. And, um, we talked a lot about that, just like, what's it like to be somebody, her character who is just on the road all the time and gives all of herself to this thing. And like, what does she have when she comes home? She only has the show. So, you know, there was a lot of like working our way around everything and trying to push more of people's own lives into the characters too.

1:40:16Sean Fennessey:You know, you have another documentary coming out soon, but I'm curious, like, is the intention to focus mostly on feature films? Like, will you think you'll toggle back and forth? Like, how are you thinking about what you're going to do after this? man I just want to like get through this and survive I I um and just make sure these films have their own you know respective lives that they deserve but I think yeah definitely I I want to keep my just like eyes and ears and you know spirit spirit open to whichever the wind way the wind blows like this film came about in such a random way you can see everything with Nathan came about in such a random way um I got to work with like my two heroes Rob who I've been obsessed with forever and Nathan who like, you know, I've seen every episode like multiple times of Nathan for you.

1:41:04Um, and I got to make both of these projects with the same cinematographer, David Bolin, the same composer, Ari Belusian, uh, same producers, Abby Rowe, my wife and, and Christian Vasquez, who's been working with me since film school. Um, I got, I had such an amazing experience like doing it with the same bands that I kind of am like, whatever we all collectively do together I know it will be good, hopefully. But I definitely want to keep doing, like, I think personally, I find documentaries more maybe spiritually, like, enriching, because I just like being in different worlds. I like being in places that I am like a complete outsider.

1:41:49And in a way, it almost feels like I'm like watching a movie in real time, because I just have to be so present. I can't think about myself or my problems or anything else. I just have to be so fucking inside something else. And I met my wife making Ren Faire. We have a child now from it. So it's like the experiences of making documentaries are so formative. With Nathan, I feel like he became my best friend. I don't know if he would say so of me. I hope he would. But I definitely feel like he is for me. And that's a great experience. It's, you know, narrative films, I think because this one ended up actually taking a life that was similar in some ways to a documentary, like we shot so much material for this movie.

1:42:34The script was longer. The first cut was like almost three hours. Then the second cut was 80 minutes. I freaked a lot of people out doing that. But the experience of editing it with Daniel Garber, who's like a brilliant, brilliant editor, he, you know, because we come from making documentaries, it felt like a very documentary-like edit. And the edit, the A24 graciously, because I was making both films at the same time, they let me basically have like a long post-production on this on primetime. And we edited for almost like a year and six months, which is just very long compared to how normal independent, not independent, but like, you know, the size of our movie.

1:43:12Usually it's like, I don't know, 12 weeks if you're lucky. So I don't know. I loved that part of it. I loved being able to sort of like find my way and keep the voice alive and keep like the collaborations going with all these people and then invite new people in the mix. Like my great production designer, Alex DiGiolando and costume designer, Alex Bovaird. I had so many like amazing, amazing crafts people work on this thing with. So I don't know.

1:43:39Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Will there be anything specific that you'll bring from making a feature to doing a doc now? because I already felt like, and we talked about this a couple of years ago, like I could never tell how much you like had your thumb on the scale when I'm watching the docs, you know? You know what I mean by that? Like, I just don't know how much, and I didn't think you were manipulating the truth, but manipulating the scenario to kind of discomfort us around what it is that we're watching. And it felt like the movie, this film is like a literalization of that feeling. Like it's almost like you took that idea of what you'd been exploring in docs and pursued an avenue in a fictionalized story to think through that.

1:44:15Sean Fennessey:So then either in a physical production sense or intellectually, like what do you bring back to documentary after this? That's a good question. You know, I guess like because I was making that you can see everything at the same time and that movie was so different than like any other film I've made before and like Nathan really challenged me to work in a different way and I challenged him to work in a different way too. I felt like we blew everything up in a way. Like I didn't usually with the documentaries I made prior to that one. And even on primetime, like, you know, I used to just shoot one camera and just like David or Nate Hertzellers who shot Renfair.

1:44:54We would just cover things in such a kind of crazy way where it was like just pure instinct guiding everything that couldn't that didn't work for you can see everything that was like we needed to make that much more observational and really like as close to just true verite as much as possible. So, you know, I think on, on like a doc again, if I, if I, you know, when, when I go back and do it, I, I, I like, I feel like I, I know a little bit more now about, you know, how to, I guess, like hopefully create something that feels like emotional IMAX or something. it's like before I was always trying to do that yeah I wanted to like make on some kind of heaven I was so inspired by like Douglas Sirk's movies and like I was in Nicholas Ray's bigger than life I loved the like the Hollywood movies at that time and I was like what if you just did that in that

1:45:46Sean Fennessey:world yeah a technicolor documentary yeah yeah exactly and now I'm like I think I could probably execute on some of those ideas a little better and um and and bring people in that also aren't you know, cut like in documentaries, uh, into the fold on that too. Um, but I don't know. I'm, I'm also like part of the thing that's just so fun about documentaries is it's almost like athletic a little bit. You just have, it's like, you're just operating on pure instinct. And as long as your body can sort of take, like you, you know, when I work with this, like the small crew that I normally work with, we'll shoot for like 14, 16 hours a day.

1:46:22And then we'll wake up like at sunrise to catch the sunrise the next morning. Like we, we're really chasing something. We're in pursuit of like, you know, whatever the movie gods can give us that day. And on fiction, it was like harder to access. But when we did access it within the circus of, you know, like a crew of 150 people or whatever, it felt really satisfying. Like that whole rainstorm sequence in primetime was so complicated. And David was going to kill me, my DP, because he's like, this is not the place we could just like fucking find things. Like there's like a water tower that's wasting so much water.

1:46:57It's like, there's like three of them. We have like a, like a crazy light lightning rig. Like we, we have to sort of plan things out and, um, we sort of did, but we also didn't. And, and I remember just like, there was a few moments that, that felt so satisfying, um, in like a, in a really ecstatic way. Like anytime something really beautiful happens, David and I always, he'll turn to me and he'll just be like, he'll like raise his eyebrows and I'll be like, yes, it's like that's what we've been chasing you know it's like a drug

1:47:31Sean Fennessey:Lance we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen I I just watched John Travolta's Michael not the Michael Jackson movie but John Travolta's Michael the Nora Ephron film the Nora Ephron film yeah sure and then I double whammied it with Phenomenon because I forgot that both of these movies came out the same year okay I do want to hear your thoughts on those movies but this does lead to a follow up question within that, which is, you know, you're a bit younger than I am. You're more than 10 years younger than I am. And yet you have a unique interest and access to a lot of the culture that I grew up watching.

1:48:09Sean Fennessey:So why do you have so much interest and knowledge about nineties and early aughts popular culture given your age? Well, I mean, I feel very like, um, I like everything that was pre nine 11. I obviously, I remember 9-11. I remember where I was. My parents took me out of school, but it felt like such a nightmare, like a never-ending nightmare for weeks. And just like this hangover that was on my parents and my teachers at school. And it's always interesting to access things that happened before that. Like there was more optimism maybe in the air. And it's like the era where like the internet was also a friendlier place.

1:48:48You go to like a cyber cafe or go to like one of the, you'd be, you know, like, outland, you know, the fact that that existed. So, you know, there's something that maybe is like, I grew up with some of that. Like, I grew up with dial-up, but I also grew up listening to, like, Stronger by Kanye West on my iPod Touch. So, like, that in some ways is closer to me than, like, you know, than Michael, which I think came out in 1996. And I also just like the movie stars of that time period, and I like the way the movies looked and it's like things just felt a little richer. Michael is such a weird, it's one of the weirdest movies I think I've ever seen in my life.

1:49:27If anyone is out there, I'm looking at the camera now, go watch that Michael movie. I feel like it's, I don't know what to make of it.

1:49:35Sean Fennessey:It's so strange that he made both of those movies in succession too. He's playing Angel in both movies. And both movies made over like$120 million. It was in the aftermath of the Pulp Fiction return. I was trying to figure out like, yeah, I know it's weird that he like cashed in the goodwill he got from Pulp Fiction to play two different types of angels. I mean, Phenomenon reminded me of Limitless. Michael was like, I saw that movie Bright, that David Ayer movie from a while ago. Yeah, Will Smith. And I was trying to figure out, does Michael exist inside a universe similar to that where angels are commonplace?

1:50:05Because if you remember, William Hurt's character is like, I need to go write about an angel. And his boss is like, yes. And I'm like, is his boss saying yes because he thinks it's stupid? Or does he think yes because angels do? And that question was in the movie for me the entire time. and I could not figure out what, well, I don't think I ever merged. I haven't talked to anyone who's seen it. So I'm like, you know, except for my wife.

1:50:27Sean Fennessey:Yet another filmmaker who appears on the show who maybe should just be a movie podcaster because that's the kind of thing we spend talking about a lot on the show. Well, what is it? Do you remember? Do you have an answer for me? Whether or not that the world is populated by angels and we know of them, but they're rare. They're like a bald eagles or something. Yes. Yeah, I'll buy that. I'll buy that. I literally have not seen Michael since 1996 and I remember thinking it was fine. But you know what? I'm glad you liked it yeah thank you I'm glad I did too it's like it's taking up so much mental real estate I guess it's better that than other things Lance congrats man you're at the center of movie culture this is awesome oh wow thanks for doing the show dude thanks man

1:51:05Sean Fennessey:thanks to Lance thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh for his production support as I indicated next week a grab bag of films Avengers Endgame Encore I'm going yeah your mother your mother your mother your mother, your mother, your mother, your mother, Heart of the Beast, Forgotten Island, The Weight, The History of Concrete. The thing I want to talk with you about is, are old movies in movie theaters potentially more powerful than non-event movies? And if that tells us anything about what's going on. Oh, interesting. So like non-rep division.

1:51:44Correct.

1:51:45Sean Fennessey:What AMC and Regal and Cinemark and big chains are programming a lot of old movies now. Anniversaries, one-off weekend events. And these movies are as much a part of the moviegoing experience as all these new releases. Yeah. And I'm thinking through that. So I'll ask you to do the same on Monday. Okay. We'll see you then.

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