‘Sinners’ Is for the Sickos, the Cinephiles and You, with Ryan Coogler!

31:28Anyhow, the point is, obviously, this is not a mistake that this movie is set in that year. This is not a mistake that Robert Johnson, who bears a passing resemblance to Preacher Boy, who then becomes, we find out later, basically Buddy Guy, who moves to Chicago, one of the innovators of Chicago Electric Blues. all of these kind of intersections I think are showing you that like you kind of need to confront evil before you can transcend and become something bigger and better and that maybe you can become Buddy Guy or maybe you can become Preacher Boy or maybe you can become Robert Johnson but that you need the dark to have the light doesn't mean the dark goes away but it means that you can kind of confront it and go forward I think that's ultimately the big takeaway of the movie yeah I mean that's the very brief by the way no one told me there was a post credit sequence You missed it.

32:14Yeah, I didn't know. Oh, my God. Listen, it's not a Marvel movie. It's very fun. Okay? I was trying to respect Ryan Coogler, okay? He's freed from Marvel. No, but I'm glad this happened to you. Oh, thanks. I'm glad this happened to you because this happened to you because of your rebuke of the Marvel movies. Oh, okay. Is that what it is? Yeah. Pay your penance. And since you rebuked them, you missed a great part of the movie. It is very cool. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I didn't. I thought it was going to be really silly. So here's what happened. Someone told you to stay? Literally, I was told to stay.

32:46But throughout the credits, though, they're showing you him playing. They cut to Buddy Guy. Yeah. Which is meant to be Preacher Boy. He's got the scar on his face that he gets to the end of the phone. I saw that. At Perlene's. That's right. At Perlene's. And then I was like, cool. Like, you know, good movie. I'm going to drive home now. Perlene also, by the way, a Sunhouse song. So that's where that character's name comes from. in the post-credit sequence Stack and Mary show up in 1992 in the back bar of a club where Preacher Boy has just played where Sammy has just played and he's now in his late 80s and incredible Coogee sweater and like hardcore 1992 hip hop outfit she got the big door knockers on door knockers they look like they've just walked off the set of In Living Color they look amazing incredible but they also So they haven't aged because they're vampires.

33:36They haven't aged. Yes, they're vampires. Listen, I'm here with you. I'm learning and we're learning and growing together. It's a funny thing, though. Not that Marvel invented the post-credit sequence or whatever. It had been done before. But I like the idea of Kugler taking a little piece of that and putting it in this movie. Because in this, he basically stacks it down next to Sammy. And he tells him that my brother told me that he would let me live if I didn't fuck with you. if I let you live. But you're now at the end, you've lived a good life. Would you want to turn and be a vampire? You keep playing music forever.

34:10You can make some money. You can live the life you want to live and be celebrated. And he says, you know what? I'm good. No, thank you. And then Stack sort of reflects for a minute and says, you know, I like what you're doing here, but I miss the real. Like I miss, and then we flash back to Sammy as a young kid playing the acoustic guitar and that slide guitar in the car when he has this great moment of reverie when he's singing traveling. And buddy guy breaks out the acoustic guitar and he just plays for them. And very amusing, Haley Steinfeld, just being like, ooh, damn, I do love the blues kind of moment from her.

34:41Really appreciate her white girl efforts for all of us. She's not as wise as we thought, apparently. At least not according to this film. No, according to her, she said that she was, you didn't see this? No. Yeah, that this is... She's descended from? I think in the, whatever descent that they use in the film is what? Is accurate. She said that she got some black and Filipino. No. Well, God bless. That's great. In this film, she's one eighth. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Her father's mother was black. Her mother's father. Her mother's father was black. Was half black. Was half black. I'm just looking at the quotes and according to Wikipedia, that's also what she's citing in real life.

35:20That's dope. She has a tremendous amount of swag and I wish her all the best. Yeah. Not to be like the white girl being like. You like it. But she was very good. I didn't know she had that. I some there's some lines in there we really you know was stirring up her feelings turn it down a little bit yeah no no no I'll turn it up yeah no I was fucking with you she's giving some of the raciest dialogue in the movie yeah she's going for it and like this all growed it up the post credit sequence is fun it is fun I'm sorry I missed it you know it's fun and it also kind of like it's meaningful too because when they're listening to him play it's they start to reflect a little bit yes they've lived for a long time They're never going to get any older.

36:01Never see the sun. They're never going to see the sun. He says, this is the last time I saw the sun. They're not ever going to be human again. But you wonder with vampires, do you miss your humanity? So when they're sitting there talking, they offer him eternity. He says no. And then they reflect a little bit about how they were once what he is. And then they leave without massacring the whole bar, which I thought that they maybe might do. And so they're out of there. So it was kind of a way to let us know that the central tenets of the story still exists even though the characters don't anymore.

36:38And just to go back to that, I think the term sinners, because, you know, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I think the term sinners just means this movie is just about people. Because unlike Marvel movies, good doesn't win in the end, evil doesn't lose, Life just goes on. Every character has a different sort of fate that they meet. There's the forever fate. There's the fate of the human. There's the fate of death. Every character shows a tremendous amount of frailty. But it doesn't button itself up in a way where you think everything is going to be okay. It doesn't button itself up in a way where you think everything is going to be terrible.

37:23We live in a really complicated world with a lot of complicated people. who if you put them in an extraordinary situation, might do some things that are heroic or some things that are monumentally stupid. But they're like just people living through this thing. Even Preacher Boy's backstory with his dad and how his dad views religion. You would have thought that Preacher Boy would have been like, I've seen the devil. So let me run to the church. Not what he does. I've seen the devil. I'm not going to be here forever. let me go live out my days in the way that is the most meaningful to me. Let me do the thing that they're telling me not to do.

38:05He still rejects God basically after he's seen Satan because he chooses himself. Very, very interesting choices all around. Interesting movie from that perspective to me. Let's talk a little bit more about Preacher Boy because he's portrayed by Miles Caden, who I'd never seen before, who is phenomenal. Here's what I wrote down. He looks like a young Derek Luke and has the voice of a young Shine Poe. Oh, wow. Shout out to Shine. President of Belize. It's a huge, huge episode for 90s rap so far. He's very, very good in this movie. He has a tricky role because he's opposite some very experienced heavyweight movie stars.

38:42You know, he's opposite Coogler twice. He's opposite Haley Steinfeld. He's opposite Delroy Lindo. Like he's really confronted by some. And he's like the framework of the movie and also sort of like the audience stand in. Exactly. He's kind of our surrogate. First character we see. Yes. And his music and his desire to make music and his struggles with God and struggles with the church is the center of the story. Now, he is the agent of change in what I'll describe as what will be the most controversial scene in the movie, which is a scene that I love, but I think will be a big talking point coming out of this.

39:13This is so funny because, so, the day I went to see it, before I went, you guys were talking about this. And you were not using, like, you know, specific nouns. you were speaking in abstract but you were clearly signaling to each other about some big scene and really controversial Van asked me what did you think of that scene yeah yeah yeah and then you guys were talking about it and you said you really bought into it and Van you were like some people were not going I liked it but some people that left the screening were like it was too much yeah so I spent the whole screening being like okay so when is the really fucked up thing gonna happen oh you thought it was gonna be a fucked up thing that's the way that you guys were describing it I was in there alright like what's the scene what's the scene and it didn't occur to me until the very end of the movie that that was the scene.

40:00It's more so that it is an audacious moment. Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, this is a movie that has vampires and supernatural elements, so audacity and storytelling is kind of a given. But what is portrayed in this one scene that we're talking about, which is the centerpiece of the second act is Preacher Boy gets on stage to finally play his music at Club Juke and he starts playing the blues and it very quickly transforms into this very acrobatic, camera moving through the club as the people are dancing and as they are dancing we are basically seeing the evolution of music both 100 years ago in both africa and china and you know performance style and musical style and also into the future into funk and into hip-hop and everything in between and it is twerking too twerking there's bay area stuff in there for sure like you can hear all the different textures and music that he's playing with.

40:53It's a crazy sound mixing in that sequence. But it is, for lack of a better word, weird. You know, it's completely out of the context of the narrative of the movie. It is a, like, almost like a psychotronic, like, hallucinogenic kind of feeling. Now, if you love music and you're interested into the history of music, as I at least was once upon a time, I'm like, this is fucking awesome. This is so cool that he, and what he, the phrase that he used to me was using the power of cinema language. Like, You can only do this in a movie. You can only say, here's how all of these things, not just African and black music, but Chinese music and American rock and roll and all these other things are all related to each other.

41:32They're part of a lineage, a cultural lineage, a sonic lineage. And people having a good time and getting something off of their chest with music is a fundamental human experience. I loved it. I felt like I got it immediately. but it is a it is a it is a bold choice I did I did have a moment when it concluded of being like did I miss something narratively because it is at a point in the movie where you're still doing a lot of exposition and so I was like okay I mean listen I love a dream ballet and that's what it was to me like it's a very recognizable part of a like a Hollywood musical absolutely an expression of like the joy of cinema, color, music movement.

42:21Like I, like I was totally into it, but then I was like, my only hesitation was, do I not understand everything that's going on? Because, but I am. Has this transcended another world or something? No, no, no, no, but it's just, there's still a point where he is putting out the, you know, the movie is building. Okay, here are the stakes. Not literally, you know, pun, not intended, but like intended, you know? and I know like my vampire stuff like I know somehow I knew how do I know that they have to be invited in I don't know that it assumes that you know it assumes that you know that's critical to the story it assumes that you know and I did know that but I couldn't tell you where I learned that so I think that I was always trying to make sure that I had all of my lore and the basic framework of the movie set down and for one moment I was like okay is the shack really on fire or is it not?

43:14But then I just got back into it and I was rocking and it was okay. And I thought it was really cool. So this is the thing. I loved it. Loved it. To her point, I was wondering, and the one thing that I do feel like the movie doesn't really explain is we're told that Preacher Boy's music is so special that it can thin out dimensions or bring people from another place or whatever, and this is why the head vampire is so interested in him. It's a siren song to this vampire, yes. That will bring him back to his ancestors. Right. That's underplayed, first of all. That idea. That detail, yeah. That detail is underplayed.

43:59That scene I thought was going to connect us to that. It's demonstrating that, but not in a way that is more meaningful than what the scene does visually. The scene doing that visually shows us the power of music, right? It shows us the connectivity across different eras of culture and humanity through sound. Like, a sonic prayer session throughout the years. Awesome. It was great. But for about five minutes after, maybe even ten, I was wondering, well, does Preacher Boy have special powers? Did that really happen? Did that happen for us? or did that happen there? Like, is Preacher Boy going to be able to play the guitar and then two dudes from Oakland going to come out with AK-47s and kill all the vampires?

44:51You know what I mean? It's an interesting idea. I was wondering if he... I didn't think of it that way, but sure, yeah. If Preacher Boy had the ability to, like, Kincaid from Nightmare on Elm Street. Remember Kin... No, no, it wasn't Kincaid. It was Alice. She could call other people into her dreams and that was her dream power. You guys, I'm getting... I'm sorry, I apologize. I just remembered that I had a dream last night that I was supposed to interview Anne Hathaway and I didn't bring my tape recorder and it was really stressful. Sorry. And I meant to tell you about it. Continue. Why was I not there?

45:18I don't know. Isn't that really weird? It's really speaking of like calling people into your dreams. Okay. So, you know, she would be like, Kincaid, Joey. And then they would show up in her dream and help her find Freddie. So I was like, can he do that? And so, but after I was like, oh, they was just getting their shit off. I was like, okay. You know what I thought? I'll tell you how I read it specifically and why it doesn't do that. And I'm glad it didn't do that, even though it is still a vampire movie. This is expressed in the post-credit sequence that Amanda missed. But when you're sitting close to someone that has a talent, especially a musical talent, and they start showing you their musical talent up close, it feels supernatural.

45:56It's nuts. It's like, especially me as someone who does not have any musical talent, when someone plays the guitar in front of me or even when someone's DJing in front of me, that's a great example. I'm like, what is this fucking warlock doing? You know, the sense of time, the sense of rhythm, the sense of connectivity across music. Like, there is something about it that it seemed clear to me that Kugler was like, Preacher Boy has something that like one out of every 20 million people have. I see. And those people in that scene are the people that have that. Yes, exactly. They are manifestations of the past and the future.

46:27You see the, you know, Parliament Funkadelic style guitarist. Like, that's something, you know, Bootsy Collins had it. Something like that. And I like that idea. Yeah, and that idea is made manifest at the end because we see that he had a 70-year-long career as a beloved and celebrated musician. So he actually was the real deal. It would have been interesting if it went like one tick further into the, this is all connected to the story. But I think just instead the sort of like siren song to the devil made sense to me. I don't think it needs to though. Ultimately, I'm with Sean that it's just a cool thing that I really liked.

47:01And I also think that a thing I really like about the movie is that for all its, you know, dream music sequences and characterization and specificity, it does all that within a recognizable three act framework and uses enough stuff that you do know. so it like it doesn't matter if you and I were confused for five minutes because then the rest of the story is built there and we can just latch back on and we know where it's going and um and it uses that to its advantage to just then be able to do wild cool stuff the movie was able to elicit your surrender which yeah it's like what George Clooney say that time George Clooney says you sit down and you make a deal with the movie and the minute that the movie breaks the deal you're like i'm out you know what i mean what you're saying on the screen is true and whatever by that point the movie had all you'd already surrendered to the movie 100 so to me i was going to be in no matter what i'm very interested in movies like this i'm very interested in music and the history of music but there's a great moment at the end of the first act after jack o 'connell's character has sort of invaded this uh family's home by the way lola kirk in that scene.

48:18I love Lola Kirk. She's wonderful. She has a great scream at the end of that scene. But as soon as that scene happens, and right before Club Juke opens, and we cut to that, there's like a doom metal musical cue, and we get a hard shot of a full moon. And it's the most like, you're in a fucking vampire movie moment. You didn't know you were in a vampire movie until now, but you are. And I was looking at the official Sinners playlist on Spotify for this movie, and it's a lot of what you might expect. It's a lot of um, Delta blues, you know, it's a lot of sun house and sunny boy Williamson. And, um, you hear, uh, pick a Robin, pick a poor Robin clean, which is sung in the song.

48:58And then you, there's like some Zach Brian in there. And then there's some, the Dubliners and some Irish folk music. And then there's a little stretch where it goes, Alison chains, sound garden, Metallica in the official playlist. And then at the, all the way at the end, there's a young Dolph song. Right. And I'm like, this is why Coogler is the best that he sees these intersections of in vampire movies there is a fucking metal aspect to these movies that you kind of have to represent to really fulfill it it's not overdoing it there was no guy playing metal in the blues club but it is a it is a quality of these movies and he gets it he's willing to put it on screen it's time for race eyes okay oh okay race eyes hi okay is this a character or just a tool that you have So it's, I'm looking, it's me using, looking at things through the lens of race.

49:50Okay. It's time for race eyes. If you guys are watching, you see the race eyes are coming out. Ron Kluger is able to do something that's really, really fascinating to me. He's able to portray black characters as people. That sounds stupid. I know it does. When I say black characters, I mean fundamentally and very deeply black characters. he's able to play them as people as people that are in a story it's hard to do it's hard to do because there's so much that sometimes black creatives and artists want to express and so much of it has to do with our condition the uniqueness of it and the specificity of the black experience in America Right.

50:40This movie has all of that. But as we're watching it, we're watching them as people and not as black people. They are black people. I am a black person. My mother is a black person. My father is a black person. I am insanely proud. Wouldn't have it any other way. Love my culture so much, like worship my ancestors. right? But sometimes I just do stuff and then stuff just happens to me. And sometimes it doesn't have very much to do with anything other than me being Van, right? Now, me being Van is incredibly informed by where I'm from, by the sacrifices of the people that came before me. And if you guys don't know that by now, by listening to me, then you haven't been listening to me.

51:35However, there is something beautiful about being able to tell a story that is this distinctly black and it's also broad because it taps into uh themes that are so unifying as human beings that you forget that you're in the Mississippi Delta you forget that you're in these different places you're watching a story about people yeah and there's so many black performers and and they say it in weird crude ways sometimes like I don't want to be in a black movie and then we go we don't want to hear you say that we don't want to hear you say you don't want to be in a black movie or i don't want to play a black character i just want to play a character we know what you mean but it's grating to hear because our some of our power is in our identity but he's able to do it and in this movie he does it it's a very distinctly black film about black culture with black music that i don't feel like one person will be alienated from i also don't think it will be described as a black movie even though 90 % of its cast is black.

52:36I think it's the same reason that whether it's Martin Scorsese and Italian-American identity and the mafia and faith versus violence or Celine Sciamma and being a woman from France and interested in queer stories or Wong Kar Wai and being Asian and looking at the idea of yearning versus what is natural. Sean Baker being somebody who's interested in people that are very different from him. it's basically just any good filmmaker that has really core ideas like Kugler has already done this in Black Panther it's a story about nationalism versus isolationism it's a tension in the diaspora right in Creed it's about male identity, vulnerability it's about finding purpose in this movie it's about faith versus making your own luck, it's about the duality that we're talking about but also these are all fun movies to watch you don't need to have had the exact same experience of the people, you better understand the experience of the people by enjoying the movie.

53:32So, I mean, I think it's interesting because he is pretty clearly the most commercially successful black filmmaker ever. Like, there's really, he's like so far ahead because of the success of Creed and Black Panther. He is, there's never really been anyone like him in American movies. Not shy away from race. At all. They're about it. Yeah. But they're not about it at the same time. Like there are so many things in Creed that are just like, this is what it's like feeling stuck at this stage of your life. This is what it's like having a complicated relationship with your father and his legacy. This is what it's like.

54:07And like not knowing how to be a dad in Creed 3. Like there's all this stuff in these movies. It's just human stuff. Yeah. So I really like that. I really like that. He's like, also, it's a vampire movie with a doom metal music cue. And there's some Irish dancing in it. And it is like, and it is both those things. And that is like, you know, Black Panther is about like diaspora and nationalism. and it is also like a superhero movie where, you know, they like all battle at the end, right? And the other people come up. There's a magical metal. Yeah, exactly. Vibranium. It has, yeah, I remember, you know.

54:36Yeah. Sure. You love Vibranium. Yeah, Vibranium. What's the one in the new? Adamantium. Thank you so much. Yeah. They found that in the Celestial. Okay, and that one's, you know, more like, that's coded back. That's an unbreakable metal that Wolverine has binded to his skeleton. Oh, that's right. because Chris leaned over me and said, that's what Wolverine's claws are made of. Yeah. And soon his skeleton. But it's like, it's not even that he's like, he doesn't have to pick and choose between the two of them. What? The claws? Yeah. When you say it out loud, it's terrible. A little silly. It's a little silly.

55:15I get mocked for leaving before the credits. No, it's not your fault. I get mocked for saying it out loud. Oh, when I hear it. Just in general, the fact that we have devoted a lot of our time. We started this when we were nine. It's core lore. But when you say it outside, it's funny. Yeah. When you say it, it feels different. Okay. Which is not an insult to you. It's in fact a compliment to you. Right. Okay. Thank you so much. Anyway, despite Vibranium or Vibranium, which I guess is cooler than Adamantium, like I liked that movie, but and it was both. It was pure superhero and also like pure ideas.

55:50Yeah. Same with Creed. Like that is a movie that just like made me weep because it hit that music, you know, cue right as he like hits someone. You know, it is it is like pure sports movie, sports genre, pleasure and also big ideas. And I really Kugler has a unique gift to not to make them one thing, as you're saying, Van, like it's really it's awesome.

56:25Oh man! Zu...

56:47It's just interesting that he wrote this movie. and it's interesting that this is a movie that he wrote and and came up with and it's completely out of his head it's just interesting that this isn't some like somebody else's take on because he was very smart to do something in his career in my opinion so Fruitvale Station comes out great movie proof of concept that this guy's a good director Creed is kind of a cheat code it's a cheat code because it's... He gets to leverage some of the coolest lore in movie history. Then Black Panther, the movie is better than anybody could have imagined that it was going to be in the hands of Ryan Coogler.

57:30Wow, this guy can really handle this. But at this point, he's doing something we're familiar with, right? And comes back with Wakanda Forever. Divisive movie, I loved it, but divisive movie. By the time we get to this one, this is totally out of his brain, right? And it's so specific.

57:55It's specifically blues and horror and all of this stuff. And he came up with it. What I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't have thought that his first original film would have been this. I wouldn't have thought that it would have been this. I wouldn't have thought that it would have been something that the degree of difficulty is so high on. Well, I think he's obviously really, really in love with genre. If you've read any of the interviews that he's given on this round, he's talked a lot about John Carpenter and Robert Rodriguez and a lot of classical horror that he really likes. So it's great to hear that as somebody who's kind of obsessed with that stuff.

58:30But I'm not terribly surprised because he so clearly understood the mechanics of superhero storytelling and of sports movies. That's one of the reasons why those movies are in the kind of upper echelon, especially this century of those kinds of movies. It is a big challenge. I think there's an important part of this story that is outside of the text, but related to the text, which is that it's been reported quite a bit that he negotiated after he wrote the script, he sent it to the studios and he said, highest bidder, you know, whoever will pay me the most money for this movie. and in the negotiation he was able to leverage that after 25 years the copyright of the film returns to his ownership which is incredibly unusual.

59:09We know that this is something Quentin Tarantino did for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Very few filmmakers in the history of studio filmmaking have been able to get this. Now, he's been a little bit circumspect in the press as to why he wanted that but I'll just make a conclusive leap that a movie about blues which is an art form that was adopted, transformed, and stolen in America and turned into white profit, making a movie that is essentially about the origins of that and the way that that is like there is a temptation and there is like a desire to transgress, but that transgression can be a beautiful art.

59:44And then owning that after making that movie, I'm sure is very metaphorically and financially rewarding for him. You know, he has said that he's not going to be asking for this on future movies, that this is a one-shot deal. We'll see if that's true. I remember last year I was at CinemaCon and talking to people about this which is around the time when that news broke that Warner Brothers had agreed to give him the copyright back after 25 years and they were like yeah yeah yeah not a big deal one off deal one off deal if I was somebody like Coogler and there are not a lot of them but if I was a young filmmaker who had a lot of promise I would push for this every time this will break movie studios but it is the next step in artistic ownership in this kind of way and it can only happen in an original story it can't be based on a classic novel it can't be based on a superhero pre-existing IP.

1:00:28You can't own that. Somebody else owns that. This is his thing. He invented it. And people like the script so much and they saw so much promise in this movie that went from probably being like a$50 million movie to like a$90 or$100 million movie with a reversion of copyright. So it's a huge gamble for Warner Brothers. That leads me to my question, which is like, do you guys think this movie is going to be a big hit? Do you think people are going to go see it? I don't think it's going to be a Minecraft movie. I'm sorry to say. Minecraft. Yeah. Did you see that yet? I have not. I'm surprised to hear that.

1:00:57But I saw people going nuts about it. Yeah. Yeah. Including this guy. I wouldn't say I went nuts about it, but I did see it in a movie theater with people who were going nuts. I saw my good friend Diallo Riddle. Shout out to Diallo. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Diallo. So I saw Diallo when everybody was at CityWalk to see Sinners. And I thought that Diallo was there to see Sinners. And he goes, now I'm here with my kids seeing the Minecraft movie. And I just laughed because everybody's seeing it. it's interesting everybody who I know is going to see this movie everyone's talking about it people are very excited I am a nerd enough to follow tracking like I'm hand wringing over the tracking for Thunderbolts we need one guys and so we're gonna find out we need one it's 10 days we're gonna find out you going in Burbank?

1:01:47yeah no no no I'm going to The Grove oh yeah okay sad for you that's sad it just comes in next to me Burbank is a it's a little bit of height guys um not for me so But R-rated vampire movie still has you have to set expectations in terms of what a hit is. Let me zag on your point because I think that that is the conventional historical point of view. Horror is one of the most underrated in terms of tracking and as you know better than anybody black audiences are always underrated when it comes to movies like this. We're going to see Sinners. This is the same thing that happened with Black Panther.

1:02:27This should be a double for Marvel and it's now one of the biggest and most important Marvel movies of all time. so I don't know I want I choose to be optimistic and I to me give me a number give me a number give me a number first week because I was I think it's tracking like 40 I can't it's no fucking way bro it's gonna make more money than that it is I think it's gonna make like 52 million okay 52 million is a win I think so okay okay now this is an original story but let me tell you why I'm asking it's cause we think with Marvel brain a lot of times when we think about this so we're thinking does sinners get to 600 million dollars you know what I mean but for this we're talking about a night I can't get that would be I mean if that happens phenomenal like that's amazing right so I guess when we say are people going to see it I guess I'm trying to set a standard to what would be a win long term on the box office a box office for the movie 90 million dollar budget then you gotta think about the marketing like what's a win the movie people 150 really I think 150 would be a huge win.

1:03:32Okay. Like overall, domestic. I don't know what international is. The one thing historically is black stories don't travel that well. It's just a fact. Internationally, they just don't play that well. It's been a big thing when you talk about how you get a hit overseas. It's the inversion of the underestimating the black audiences in America. Overseas, one of the reasons why these movies are not marketed in the same way internationally is they feel like it's going to underperform. Yeah. Yeah. So total, God, I don't, it's hard to say. Yeah. I feel like it can do 50, which I think is a win for an original horror movie in the middle of April.

1:04:09I think that would be a great success. You could make the case that a movie like this shouldn't cost 90 million. That's what some people will say. I don't really care. Yeah. It's not your money. It's not going to be our money. One of the reasons why it would be great if it got into that$200 million range is not only would there be financial success, I think he's also getting first dollar gross, which is like Tom Cruise territory. like he's in rare territory in terms of negotiating not only great for Kugler and his team it's great for movies like this getting greenlit it's great for movies like this being possible y 'all need this bad badly it's like so it's really it's really important desperate it's really important like it really right but that's why I was like yeah yeah yeah ideas rich text whatever this is a vampire movie like please go see this movie in theaters so they were like we can all keep talking about shit like this the other thing is we've had these like all these hand-wringing conversations about Warner Brothers over the last couple of years and everybody's demonizing David Zaslav, recently featured in New York Magazine in a long profile this week.

1:05:08Set all that aside, Mike DeLuca, who runs Warner Brothers, like, works with good filmmakers and lets them make cool movies. Like, this is a cool movie. You know, One Battle Left Another sounds like it's going to be a cool movie. Like, he takes risks with original stories. That's his whole thing. He's been doing it since New Line. I don't want him to get fired. People who want Mike DeLuca to get fired don't love movies. That's fucking crazy. If you like studio movies. Most of the people who talk about tracking and box office and everything don't love movies. But I'm the sort of person who actually looks at tracking and cares about box office performance, but cares about the quality of the movie first.

1:05:39So to me, the premise of the show is the interconnected nature of, is your movie good and how well did it do so we can get another one? So this to me is such a perfect test case for that big question. I would implore people to go see it. I liked what you said at the very top of the conversation though. This is not a perfect movie. Genre movies by their very nature are complicated. They're hard to make them make sense. We've been rapturous for an hour while discussing the movie. You're probably going to see it and take quibble with some things. Can I ask a question related to this? Okay, so all the vampires that are, you know, outside for sunset and thus are lit on fire at the end of the movie.

1:06:15But they come back. The fire doesn't kill them? No, none of them come back. Oh, I thought that Hayley Seinfeld was in that. They ran away. They ran away. They survived. All right, thank you. I was wondering if they were hiding in the club. They might have been. And then even when Smoke gets killed at the end, they're still hiding in the club, but they can't come outside and help him. They're watching him. They ran. They were able to get away. All right. They're in love. But yeah. It's beautiful. And lust. And that's great. That's beautiful. Interracial. Well. Ah. I mean, yes and no. Yes and no.

1:06:49I would watch like their Twilight, you know? I guess like both Twilight. There is definitely a sequel that they could do if this movie is a massive success, which I would watch. I would watch it. I think a sequel set in contemporary times would be dope. What if it was 1970s, like, Shaft-style blaxploitation movie with vampires? That would be amazing, too. The only thing is, I want now to—I don't know how you orient the sequel. If it's around them, are they the heroes? Same thing with the other movies. You know what I mean? Yeah, we know they survived, too. We know they survived, so. Yeah, so it can't be a Bonnie and Clyde type thing.

1:07:29Right, right, right. Well. Well, present day would be the way to do it then. Yeah. Or immediately after the events in the post-credit sequence. Right, and then you could play the post-credit sequence at the beginning so I could see it. I thought about you guys when I watched. I was like, did you see Buddy Guy play? I was like, fuck. It was cool. Yeah, it was cool. I thought about you guys when I watched this movie recently as we talk about original films. Did you guys talk about Companion on here? We did. We sure did. We really liked it. And we responded to your text. Did you? Yeah. Yeah, I liked it.

1:07:56It's a great movie. Also Warner Brothers. So here's the thing. When I saw Companion, I thought about myself 1992. I thought about myself 1992 watching a movie that I love and will watch 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Wishing you had a sex robot? The whole thing. There were movies like that back then. There were? Yeah. So, but the movie to me, which has an awesome script, which has a good villain turn from Jack Quaid. He's great. What the shit? Yeah. I felt like it came and went and people didn't really support it. We did talk about it a couple of times. I had Drew Hancock, the writer, director on the show.

1:08:40Super, super smart, nice guy. One, January movie. So not a lot of fuss made over it. I think they also moved it to streaming very quickly. I imagine it did pretty well on streaming or on PVOD, I should say. But it did okay business. I use this as an example of like movies are fucked up now because that movie should be in movie theaters for two months. Yeah. And it wasn't. It was out of movie theaters real quick. It just, to me, all the bones of a good movie. And I just wonder, as much as we talk about this, I'm not going to go on my old man yells at cloud slash the moon thing. Do you guys just like good movies?

1:09:16Because it's a movie with a very inventive script that gives you a surprise every 10 minutes. Great performances. Cool people to look at. Very funny. Very funny. Clever. Like the, you know, and uses the, builds, follows its own rules very well and like with a lot of fun. Right. And I just wonder, and we'll see, is, are good movies enough anymore? No. You gotta say no. I'm telling you. I'm holding my thought. This year is important for us. This is like, it's finally maybe turning a little bit, but it's been like a tough year. I mean, it's just been a... This cuts both ways. This cuts both ways.

1:09:55Because if Thunderbolts, Superman, and Fantastic Four underperform, then what? Well, then the question is, are movies enough anymore? Well, we can save that existentialist conversation for a future episode. Ben, you're the best. We can hear you on Higher Learning. Higher Learning. Midnight Boys? Midnight Boys. the rewatchables the rewatchables what else anywhere you're going to come on jam session soon jam session jam session you were on press box recently I was on press box recently that was fun that was a lot of fun I think maybe I brought too much heat but no I'm I'm extremely thrilled how come I haven't been invited on higher learning really you could be you know what let me tell you why we need to so we had Omar Miller from from from the centers on Higher Learning today.

1:10:47Today. Today. No kidding. It'll be out tomorrow. You know, he's great in 8 Mile. He's great in 8 Mile. White representation, thank you. I'm the little hero. He's actually very good in this movie. Very good. He's really good in this movie. He's important. He's a key role. We have to do something for Rachel. What we need is the big picture because I've been saying that the - She doesn't watch movies. She doesn't watch movies. I know this about her. we did top five black vampires on Higher Learning he said Blade and then he was astonished because Rachel has never seen Blade that's really sad and so you guys need to help her by making a list of essential movies she hates The Princess Bride she hates it does essential movies ever?

1:11:31well essential movies for her to watch I'll give you the year of her birth and then and what movies are there any movies she does like? That would be helpful. Princess Bride is a no. She doesn't like Princess Bride. She likes... She doesn't like fun. She doesn't like movies that are perfect. Okay. Which the Princess Bride is in every single way except for the fact that they ain't got no black people in it. We'll allow it. So that's what you can do. You guys, we can bring you guys on and we can have a conversation with Rachel about the movies that she has to see. We'll do the big picks. Essential Rachel movies.

1:12:09Okay. Man, racial movies. You're not going to bring me on to talk about Trump? We could. We could do all of that. Okay. The police? Just noting that. Yeah, the police? Yeah, I got a lot of thoughts about the police. I got inside information. There you go. Man, thank you very much. Amanda, thank you. You're welcome. Let's now go to my conversation with Ryan Coogler.

1:12:33For the first time on The Big Picture, the great Ryan Coogler, very happy and honored to have him here. Ryan, I want to start with this. After two Black Panther films and Creed, was it important for you to make an original story at this stage of your career with Sinners? Yeah, yeah, I would say absolutely, man. And, like, it was more, like, at this stage of my life. Like, I work with a lot of my friends, and I could feel us all kind of, like, transitioning into, like, a different mode. you know um everybody's life was changing uh around me like people who didn't have kids man having kids now and they big and they getting ready to start school and joining baseball teams and you know like uh taking piano lessons and and uh people buying minivans and shit you know i'm saying so so you know like like you know we got companies now and we no longer like the youngest people in the room when we walk into it you know uh and i and i realized you know i had been making movies, you know, for 12 years now that had been, you know, going into international cinemas and I still hadn't done anything that was like all me, you know?

1:13:48And that scared me, bro. I had a conversation recently with Michael Fleming where I talked about that. But what scared me more was realizing that pretty soon I wasn't going to be able to pick up the phone and call everybody who I want to make a movie with and get them to like fully, fully committed just because like the direction that their lives were going. You know what I mean? Like people were starting to get offers to direct movies and, and, and, and, um, different type of full time positions. You know what I'm saying? Like my, my picture editor, um, Michael Schauer, who's cut all my stuff, you know, his son, like, like I mentioned, man, joining a baseball team and like, like getting serious about it.

1:14:23And like, like it was, it was, it was starting to become so complicated that, that, that, uh, I kind of panicked a little bit, realized I had this really cool story. I wanted to tell and, you know, realized Louisville was free and had Zinzi, my producer, and my wife call around and check on Hannah and Buechler and my production designer and Ruth Carter, costume designer, Autumn Arkhipa, I sent a tire. We called in, check on them and see what their schedule was looking like and I checked in what might be and realized, man, we might have an opportunity to go, you know. So we went.

1:15:00We went like, like, like a bat out of the hill, bro like i used to return uh kicks like kickoffs when i played football you know that was one of the things i was i was really good at and like i remember sometimes i would i would like think i saw something you know like in the in the in the way it's like sometimes somebody would slip you know what i mean there's a hole a hole opened up yeah yeah it's not it's not there yet but i think it might be there you know you know what i mean and then and you just gotta go you know what i mean run like it's run like it's gonna run like it's gonna open up and and that was what this that was what this process was man like um and i was and i picked just the right time where everybody could kind of run with you know i don't think it'll happen like this again to be honest it's so interesting you say that because i know you're a very modest person but i a lot of those people are getting a lot of big looks in part because of the work that you guys all did together on these movies over the years so i i have to assume they still have a kind of loyalty to you and want to come together to make something when you're like, I have an idea.

1:15:59Yeah, but the thing is, bro, it's like, as much as they order me, I order them, first and foremost. But the other piece is like, when it comes to people's kids, bro, and their lives, like, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean? I have a four-year-old, I hear you. Yeah, it don't matter what our history is. You know what I'm saying? And it's the same for me. You know, I got a couple kids now, and like, if I got a choice between them than anybody else. Like, you know, the answer is them. You know what I mean? And like, that was what I was watching like, I was watching like the kind of people we were going to be for like the next 20, 30 years.

1:16:35It was solidifying. You know what I'm saying? And like, you know, look, face is like one of my closest friends, Lou V. He's also, he's also a Chris Nolan guy. He's also a Jon Favreau guy now. You know what I'm saying? And like, if I catch him at the wrong time, he's not going to have any time for you. You know what I'm saying? That's just the reality of, you know, like in, And, you know, when I, when I, and I had a gap, bro, where I needed a commitment from him. Very different from any other time I called him before. I needed him to be an executive producer on this. I needed him to move his family to Louisiana.

1:17:06You know, I needed his wife to work on this. You know what I'm saying? I needed his all in a way that he could probably never give it again. You know, like, like, you know, and bless these folks, man. Once they understood the urgency of what I was trying to do, you know, I mean, everybody, everybody showed up for me, man. And at that point, you know, you look up and you're in Louisiana, man, and everybody's kids is down there. Then you realize, oh man, I can't let these people down, you know? It's an amazing, amazing thing that you're able to assemble these people. You know, we met a long time ago around Black Panther and we had a conversation.

1:17:42And one of the stories that you told me at that time was that before you were starting on Black Panther, you had a conversation with Francis Ford Coppola. He told you to check out Brigadoon. I remember you telling me that and I was wondering if you had any version of that if you went to anyone, if you linked up with anybody who told you to look at something or if you just looked at something for yourself before you started making a movie like Sinners I looked at something for myself bro I looked at Don't Look Now which was a movie that I've been hearing about and I owned it, you know what I mean?

1:18:14I bought it a long time ago. It was something that it was actually something like really, it was oddly like clawing at me, you know you know how it is, bro. When you buy a movie and it's like, I'm going to get to this at some point. You know what I'm saying? I was watching some YouTube video. It came up and I said, man, let me look at this thing. And I watched it. I watched it right before. I didn't really, you know, I was so green, bro. And I did the first Panther that I consulted with a lot of people, man. I consulted with Chris and Emma. Francis was the big one. You know, he had this history of like taking on larger-than-life things and coming out on the other side with them feeling originally bespoke.

1:18:59You know what I'm saying? That was what I was trying to figure out, man, like throwing myself into the gauntlet. You know, coming out with someone on the other side that still felt like me. And he gave me some incredible advice when he came in. His number one piece of advice was to bring my family with me. And I followed that since that initial conversation. We've had several since. You know, but for this one, man, I talked to Chris and Emma about the format, you know, when large format became, uh, something that we were discussing and thinking about, uh, cause they had just navigated, you know, both camera packages we ended up using.

1:19:35We used different lenses for them on our system, 65 package. We used the, uh, ultra Panavision, 276. You've seen the film, I imagine. Yep. Uh, what did he tell you? What did he, what did he share with you about working in those formats? Yeah, yeah, man. He, he, he, he, but he's telling me not to be scared. Don't let anybody bow down to the camera on set. He acknowledged that it's an intimidating piece of equipment because he uses a lot of handheld camera work in his history. I know it's cameras you can't hand hold. The sync sound cameras, you can hand hold the high speed. I'm a nerd out. This is the place.

1:20:17Do it. the catch of the IMAX camera package is, is that it is, it is technically not a sync sound camera in that, in that, you know, I think the new version that he has on the Odyssey is, you know, but the one that, the one that they shot Oppenheimer with is the same one they shot Dunkirk with is the same one they shot the last two dark nights with, you know, these cameras are massive cameras that, that are ripping celluloid through the gate 15, perfs per picture at 24 pictures per second, right? They sound like somebody took seven weed whackers and tied them in a steel box and have them synchronized.

1:21:04You know what I'm saying? If you want to shoot an over-the-shoulder dialogue scene, that camera is going to be all over the dialogue. It is automatically going to be ADR. You know what I'm saying? The five perfs 65 millimeter camera package the system 65 has two sync sound camera bites sync sound so now these these sound like action in this role and you don't hear anything you know what i'm saying that's you put your ear all the way up to the blink now all of that soundproofing uh because that because that that that you know that that camera is doing a lot of work ripping that 65 uh millimeter uh kodak celluloid through the gate at just five per per second you know what i mean So it's a little less mechanics happening there, but still very violent, still very loud.

1:21:50But all of that soundproofing is heavy. It's insanely heavy. So it becomes a 100-pound camera system with zero ergonomics. So it is impossible to handhold the sync sound version of that camera. You understand? And Chris comes from the school. I also come from the school of whatever works for the scene. So you'll see some of those movies. he's hand-holding that camera a lot. You know what I mean? And when you decide to shoot System 65 and you want a sync sound camera happening, you're not hand-holding that. And you ain't steadicam it neither. You know what I mean? You just need a setup. It's just too heavy.

1:22:30You are on sticks, you are on a crane. Yeah. Or the camera's on the ground. You know what I mean? And so he was acknowledging that. Now, there's another version of this camera that is the high-speed System 65 camera. now this is especially uh the same camera without the soundproofing okay so now this camera is about 60 pounds that camera can be handheld that camera can be put on a study camera but now your dialogue with that camera a year immediately you know what i mean because it's it's it's almost as loud as maybe if not louder than the imax camera you know what i mean i actually had a question about this for you because i talked to hoita on hoitama about oppenheimer and carrying that thing around and what that was like for the actors and the intimacy that it how intimacy is hard and like this movie in particular that you made is very sexy very sensual very up close you know like it's very physical like don't look at hearing you say don't look now it's not surprising when you see the movie but when you got this giant piece of machinery up in someone's face when you're trying to do a scene like that like is that hard for the actors was it different for you than what you've done in the past?

1:23:35So Christian's advice to me was to use it like a Super 8 camera. He said, use it like you would normally use your camera. You know, and he told me straight up, he was like, man, you're a CC. He's an opera hammer. I got that camera right at the beginning of killing his face. You know, and yeah, but we got close with that thing, man. That was a part of what the movie had to be. You know, it had to be the sexiest movie I ever made. You know, we knew we were going to get intimate with these cameras, man. And to be honest with you, everybody brings their A game with that when you're shooting film in general I missed it since I did Fruitville to be honest it's hard for people to take it serious you know what I mean because people just take it for granted bro you know what I'm saying you gotta go you gotta go out your way to have folks really respect when the camera's rolling you know what I mean because you got that your DP's generally in the dick tent and everybody's got these high-def monitors everywhere, man.

1:24:38You know what I'm saying? When you bust out that film camera, bro, and you hear it rolling, and you know, man, you're on the clock for real. And if you don't get it right, you're going to miss it. We're going to have to reload. You know what I mean? Everybody's right there. You know what I mean? And the focus that you get, man, the attention that goes. People hold their breath, bro. you know and it's the same thing when it's close to the actors you know what I'm saying like it just it feels like like you're doing something timeless especially with these cameras bro they look old you know what I mean like the reality of it man I had never seen a lens that looked like that was a Panavision lens you know I'm in a lot of movies bro busting that thing out and knowing okay man that shot being hurt on this thing you know what I'm saying it's like you know it does something to you I'm interested in kind of like the inversion of the intimate stuff too i have to ask you about there's a sequence in the middle of the movie the sort of musical centerpiece of the movie which i thought was like one of the boldest coolest things i've seen in a studio movie in forever and i was like this is just so outside of the pocket of what this movie was and it's taking it to a totally different place but it's also like very acrobatic in the filmmaking and yeah you're taking like big visual risks with it and i was trying to figure out how you actually did it and why doing something that is that sort of like fantastical and historical inside of this movie was something that you wanted to do yeah man that's a great question um you know i i believe in uh i look like like when i do my job bro i got certain responsibilities right it's an expectation of me as a writer director to be fluent in film language like like what are what are the the place where like i must do the thing that can only happen in this movie.

1:26:29You know, like in communication and through film language. You know what I'm saying? If you're making a good movie, you get a few moments like that. You know, the great movies are chock full of, you know what I mean? Like things that you can, things that can only happen in this, you know, in a movie, number one, and in this movie, number two. You know what I mean? And while I was writing the screenplay, it was after I haven't done the research about this music that my uncle was obsessed with. and realizing that this music changed the world. But these people who are living this reality had no idea that this music that they lived for just for Saturday nights, you know what I'm saying, would have the type of outsized global impact that an art form could have.

1:27:15Maybe the most impactful American art form. You know, and for this time, it was just theirs. You know what I mean? But they also had to... you know, the luck of being born black and to say that their adulthood was going to be experienced in the 30s. You know what I mean? They wouldn't know anything other than sharecropping, Jim Crow. You know what I'm saying? Backbreakingly racist laws. You know, backbreakingly racist economy. You know what I mean? And they would live for the hope that maybe their descendants would have it better. And I'm realizing, like, in this movie, I'm about to have these characters encounter cosmically horrific vampiric violence.

1:27:59That's coming from this movie. And I have to buttress that with something cosmically beautiful. You know what I mean? It's something that's true that can only be communicated through film language. You know what I'm saying? And that was how we came up with that. We realized that the movie needed that scene. I love that choice. That part is incredible to me. One theme I wanted to ask you about in your movies that I feel like recurs a lot is this moment when two disparate cultures confront each other and are forced to understand each other. You got the Jabari and T 'Challa. You got Sly and Adonis.

1:28:42You got people coming from different walks of life. You got the Talacan and you got the Wakandans. There's always a confrontation. In this movie, you've got black american blues and irish folk music and this like and obviously vampires and humans right these two different cultures that are kind of like forced to meet each other i was hoping you just kind of talk about like why you tend to synchronize the movies that way and what's interesting about it in this one i mean i i don't i don't i never thought about it as a student you just described it uh yeah sean like i like that's actually incredible bro but um but look man like I'm a black man from from Oakland, California you know my grandmothers are probably gonna second wave with a great migration I got an Irish first name bro not only do I have an Irish first name but my baby brother has an Irish first name his name's Keenan and I'm from the Bay Area which I think with the exception of like Long Beach or something is like the most diverse place in the country and one of the most diverse places on the planet you know what I mean so every day I've been, you know, every day in my life, I've been encountering, you know, cultures that were different from mine and negotiating that and having family members that married in the other cultures and cultures that married in the mine, you know, and that's my reality.

1:30:01But that's also the reality of the Delta Blues, you know. It's a lot of literature written about the fact that Charlie Patton was likely part Shock Talk. Everybody knows, man, Irish people were around and were influenced in that music, you know, and we're, you know, and, you know, the banjo comes from Africa, but now it's most associated with Appalachian people. You know what I mean? And those are people of Irish descent there. It's so ironic when you look at the history of those people. It's a ton of crossover. You know what I mean? Like the dichotomy of living in a place of extreme agricultural abundance, but starving as a result of a backbreaking colonial and capitalist system that's not your own.

1:30:46You know, having your way of life outlawed, your way of worship demonized, you know, the way that you dance demonized. You know what I'm saying? Like all of these things. And it was exciting for me to have a character who presents as a 30-year-old Appalachian, but really a centuries-old Irish vampire who's finding himself in 1932 Clarksdale, Mississippi. Who does he want to hang out with? Who does he identify with? You know, like these questions I'll ask myself, you know, that made a lot of sense. What music is he going to be attracted to? At the time, I was listening to a lot of music, man, like a lot of Delta Blue music, but also just like a lot of Black music from different areas.

1:31:31And I was getting obsessed with this Marvin Gaye song, bro, which a lot of people consider like the sexiest song ever written by a man, you know. and the lyrics are, I want you, but I want you to want me too, which is so powerful and sexy. I was thinking, I knew I needed that from my opinion. It's this idea of I'm strong enough to take, but that's not satisfying to me. I need to convince you to want to be taken. You know what I mean? That felt synonymous with the vampire. It felt synonymous with blues music. It just made sense. Bro, when we brought Jack on board, you know, his late father was an Irish immigrant to the UK.

1:32:17And he just upped the end, like, you know, so far with his own personal truth. Like, I'm dealing with the love and the grief of my uncle. He brought the love and the grief of his father, you know. And when we shot that scene, the counterpart to that other scene you're talking about, you know, the Rocky Road, the Dublin scene, man. bro we shot that scene man and he pulled me close and he whispered in my ear and said man it's my father's birthday and I just became a baller you know you know you know everything but but um you know it was something else I worked on this on this movie that I like I'd be crazy to try to repeat you know what I'm saying I just love I loved how you twin those two things it was really it's just like amazingly effective and you know Sean Fentasy you might imagine is Irish so I saw saw a little of myself in there one thing i need to ask you about is uh you're one of the few filmmakers that i've talked to on this show who's under 40 years old who's directed five features that have been released in movie theaters that is becoming a rarer thing and i know theatrical is really important to you how are you feeling about movie theaters the movie going experience where it's at right now because there's been a lot of talk this year look man it's just a subject matter i can't talk about without becoming emotional bro look man when i was researching this movie i found out that my my grandmother who's 96 years old i found out what her first date with my grandfather was took her to the movies took her to the movies and he tried to make out with her in the movie and she told him she told him we can do that after i'm trying to watch this you know what the movie was what was the movie she couldn't remember um but but but but but she remembered the conversation she had with him you know what i mean and me and zinzi you know who's my producer on this most important person in my life.

1:34:04Our first date was to the movies. We went to go see Bring It On. Oh, nice. By Peyton Reed. Yeah. Starring Gabrielle Griffin and Christian Dunst. Yeah, yeah. Like, look, bro. For me, it's everything, man. My favorite cinema in LA has been closed since the pandemic. Man, Arclight Hollywood. So painful. Sucks here. Yeah, man. Like, I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for the experience and watching these movies at a time when I was pre-social media, man, when you couldn't get a movie spoiled before you find, you know, seven ways from Sunday, you know what I mean? And every time I set the camera up, bro, I'm thinking about the feelings that great filmmakers gave me, you know, in my formative years.

1:34:48And now, I love you. I think, to quote a friend of mine, Miriam Bacabza, who I went to school with, you know, it's a giant empathy machine. You know what I'm saying? I think it's best experience with strangers in the dark where you can't judge each other. Even though it's getting incredibly expensive, but I'm making an IMAX film, man. This thing is going to be on every PLF imaginable. You know what I mean? The cost, bro, coupled with inflation of taking a date to the movies, man. By the time you get your parking and your babysitter, you know what I mean? I know it's substantial, but it still is.

1:35:31such a democratized form of entertainment, man. You know what I mean? Like, it was always the thing for the people, for the working man. You know what I'm saying? To go have a nice night out and travel somewhere and experience something. I'll fight tooth and nail to keep that around. You know what I'm saying? I don't know what I would do without it, to be honest with you. And I always consider myself so fortunate that my movies have come out in theaters. It really got nothing to do with me. It's just the timing, bro. Had Fruitville been made a calendar year or later, we might be having a different conversation.

1:36:11Straight up. And I think about these things, man. I'm really glad that you're still putting movies in movie theaters and making them for them. Ryan, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. have you seen anything that's moved you recently it's a great question bro um i've been incredibly busy could be new or old it doesn't have to be a new thing yeah no no no um it was one of these days yes so fun it was one of these days man um and sharita singleton i brought that bro i knew obviously i knew her father rest in peace but but i was i was on i was blown away by it what did you like i like that it felt like friday which is which is a movie that i love but it felt uh uh so feminine you know what i mean uh i love kiki you know and i and i and i was like blown away by her performance and scissors performance i'm blown away by filmmaking bro like like the like the uh i love like like the the how it celebrated like the the resourcefulness of black women you know what i'm saying like i love like like one of my favorite scenes is like when you realize her mom has a store in the jungles, you know what I'm saying?

1:37:23People come in here and watch. Like, I love you, man. You know what I mean? Like, it felt very in conversation with our scene with Annie, you know? I love the cinematography. I love the humor. Like, you know, it just made me feel alive, bro. It's a great pick. One of my favorites of the year. Ryan Coogler, I appreciate you, man. Thank you so much for the time. Man, thank you, Sean. Thanks for having me.

1:37:49Thank you to Ryan Coogler. Thanks to Van. Thanks to Amanda. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Next week, we have our next 25 for 25 entry. I will not reveal what it is. Do you want to guess, Van? 25 for 25. 25 best movies of the century. People have been really telling me, they've been peppering me, tell Sean to do this movie, tell Sean to do this movie, tell Sean to do this movie. I can't think of it. I'm involved too.

1:38:15What?

1:38:35what did they tell you that we should do oh so many different guess guess guess what we're doing somebody told me i should do ghost dog like they're not gonna do ghost dog i would love to do Ghost Dog. I don't know if I could get Amanda on board with Ghost Dog. Next movie, Moonlight. It's not Moonlight. Okay. Yeah. Spoiler alert. See you then.