‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ and the Spider-Man Movie Rankings

20:24Sean Fennessey:the actual battles the fight sequences whoever the enemy is going to be doesn't occupy the same space that like maybe a Dr. Octopus does where it's sort of like well this is one of the critical foes in this person's struggle as a superhero and he represents something as kind of a counterpoint you know that like he was a mentor and he's been driven mad and he's also a man of science like there's a lot of deep ideas in the villains in the Spider-Man universe this one I felt kind of has a big gaping hole where that feeling usually goes. So I struggled with that a little bit. And then there's the whole Jean Grey component, which I could not be more mixed on.

21:08Sean Fennessey:Here's my positives on the introduction of Jean Grey into this movie. One, Sadie Sink I think is excellent casting. I was not a big Stranger Things person. I think I quit after the third season. I don't have a ton of exposure to her. I thought she was terrific in this movie. I think the X-Men are very well set up with her in this part. to go back to some of the canonical stuff that Ben is talking about, as far as I know, Spider-Man and Jean Grey have no relationship. It's just kind of weird to go into a movie like this and see them interacting in the way that they necessarily do. That doesn't mean that it's bad.

21:39It's because they have trauma, you know? So they understand each other and they're lonely. And they've lost someone that they love, which, you know, is also how the other Spideys bond in No Way Home, which I rewatched this morning. That stuff is getting a little pad at this point, obviously.

21:53Sean Fennessey:Hallmark. But I did feel at a certain point that the movie, and I'm curious if you guys feel this way, sort of becomes Jean Grey's movie for about 40 minutes. It does. And this is something that many MCU movies are criticized for, but it does overwhelm the Spider-Man quality of the movie. And it's a two hour and 25 minute movie. And I'm not necessarily advocating for excising Jean Grey entirely, but there's not a ton of reason for her to be in this movie other than just to set up what is to come, narratively speaking. Yeah. Again, I rewatched the other, the Holland trilogy before this in rapid succession preparing for this podcast.

22:30And I had forgotten how much Tony Stark there is in it and how much of it is just interstitial between, you know, the snap and whatever is going on in the Marvel. And those three movies are used in the same way to continue stories that are going on outside as much as they are Spidey stories. so I don't think it's different it's just the tenor of Tony Stark being like I got you bud here's your suit you know Gwyneth Paltrow where you marry me versus Sadie Sink being like I can control everyone's mind but not my sister you know it's a different vibe yeah I think even in the like and this was a Jomie had this criticism a lot of Midnight Boys had this criticism that the movie has a villain problem and I think my thing was this villain Jean Grey being the villain in this movie is kind of even, you know, to my, against my better, my preferences, is continuing the tradition of Spider-Man movies in live action, which if you look at Green Goblin, if you look at Dr.

23:32Octopus, which I rewatched that movie, and Raimi's skill as a horror director is underrated, not in the grand scheme of things, obviously he's one of the masters of that craft, but in how he crafts that movie, there are a lot of just straight-up horror sequences.

23:47Sean Fennessey:He's perfect for Spider-Man because Spider-Man is afraid of the villains in his world. It's different than Captain America. And you have to be afraid of them. So he makes them scary, right? But Octavius in that movie is a tortured genius that is a good guy that is doing a bad thing. In all of these movies. Electro and Amazing Spider-Man 2. The only one that's kind of not that. Flint Marco Sandman is like a tragic figure. Right. The only one that's kind of not that is Mysterio to a degree, right? They even bring all of these characters back in No Way Home and still play to those same hits. So to that end, Jean Grey being someone that starts off as villainous and is doing a villainous thing because of this profound trauma that she has is in line with other things that we've seen in Spider-Man movies.

24:38and Spider-Man has been the superhero rehabilitator as much as he's been the person that needs to defeat the villain. I thought it was a really interesting move to have her occupy that space in this movie. I thought it was really interesting. To your point though, there gets to be a point in the movie where we're in Jean's story now. And there was always going to be interesting how people related to that after three movies and coming to see Spider-Man. I thought it was in the same tradition as Civil War being a Black Panther origin story. Like, to a lesser degree, Iron Man 2 being a Black Widow origin story.

25:21She occupies a much larger part of this movie than those characters do. Black Panther is in a lot of Civil War and has an entire arc in Civil War. But yeah, so I didn't have as much of a problem with it.

25:33Sean Fennessey:I never felt watching Civil War, though, like, well, now we're in a Black Panther movie. Right. I felt like this is like a tributary in the story, and we're going to go back to Tony and Cap momentarily. But I'll say that there's a reason why. Jean Grey is just a much, much, much, much more fundamental, not to me, everybody, but a much more fundamental. No, to me, too. She's a linchpin in Marvel storytelling. She's one of the most important Marvel characters ever. I don't know why I'm pandering. No, like Jean Grey in this regard is a much, much larger character. You're going to need to know this.

26:09Sean Fennessey:I do know this. Then T 'Challa. I thought you were about to say that she's like the most powerful superhero of all the superheroes, which you guys always say about every time we, you know, every superhero that gets introduced is undefeatable. The other challenge with this, of course, is that like we've already seen the Dark Phoenix story told twice before. Okay, so Jean Grey is Dark Phoenix? She is, yeah. Okay. The Phoenix Force is an entity that is bonded to Jane Grey. And then Jennifer Lawrence played a blue person who was an ex-man, but not Dark Phoenix. Okay, that's what I always get confused on.

26:45Sean Fennessey:I think you're making a very good point. And I think I haven't even mentioned a bunch of other characters who are in this movie and play somewhat critical roles in this movie. Bernthal's Punisher plays a very big part in the film. It's a team up. the Incredible Hulk is in the film Ruffalo's Hulk we see Scorpion in full for the first time we see Tombstone in this movie we see a bunch of comic book characters right and the comic book ishness of the movie I loved there's an incredible sequence with the Punisher and the Hulk and Spider-Man in the middle of the movie where I was like this is what I have wanted my whole life when we joke around about like being dorks in 12 years old like that sequence in the movie which i don't think really is a very effective movie storytelling but the sequence itself i was like this just rocks like i could watch this for an hour and enjoy myself but why the incredible hulk is in this movie in the first place is a little debatable teaching spider-man about genet like biohacking yeah in order to not be consumed by his spider hormones yes um and i have a strong reading of that entire sequence in what all that means to this movie.

28:01Sean Fennessey:So like there's a part of my brain that loved seeing that big splash page sequence where those three guys are fighting. There's a part of me that loved seeing Jean Grey freeze all of New York City with her power and start thinking about the future of a cool X-Men movie. And then there's another part of me that was like felt like I was looking at my watch every 30 minutes and being like how much is left in this? Because it feels glacially paced at times and then the movie goes really fast and then it slows down and MJ and Peter are talking. Yeah. They're trying to figure out their relationship and then it speeds up again.

28:32So invested that it jumps out of that. Yeah. And,

28:35Sean Fennessey:and so I just felt like it was uneven, you know, it was just, and not bad and pretty enjoyable. Right. And I think is mostly going to give people what they're looking for here, but there's also just something a little bit off. Well, so this is what I'll, okay. So the movie is not the perfect version of itself. My rule for comic book movies, really for any movie, my rule for any movie is as long as it works I wouldn't have cared if Angel would have flown into the movie wouldn't have cared if the one of all would have been Warren Worthington Warren Worthington III I wouldn't have cared as long as it works as long as you deploy the characters as long as you deploy the characters in a way that serves the story and makes for something cool as long as it works if it didn't work for people then it didn't work and so it was fat but you know I think the movie is a little bit I think the parts of the movie that don't work are the parts that are a little reactionary because this movie comes out and is being made.

29:35The like, Marvel has a big, big sort of blunder. Maybe it was the Marvels. I can't remember which one it was. And then like right after that happens, they said, hey, first day of shooting, brand new day. So part of this movie, the ethos was to restore the feeling.

29:52Sean Fennessey:Right, we have a problem to solve. Like we have a problem to solve. So this is what we're going to do. We have this gigantic character. We have other characters that you like. You're going to come to see this, and we're going to give you both the heart and the superhero bonanza that you want that's going to remind you of some of the times that you had fun at the theater before. Right, and they have released the movie exactly one week after Comic-Con when they took over Saturday night, and you were there in person to be like, no, look over here. Look at all of the cool new things that we're doing in Marvel, and here's our new Black Panther, and here's Ryan Gosling, et cetera.

30:24So it is of a piece of just trying to restart. So like, I think that the box office, plus the fact that this movie is good enough for a lot of people, fun enough, really good for some people, then some people are going to be like less thrilled about it. But that it is good and makes a lot of money is going to be enough for people to be like, OK, they can still do this. But they were definitely, at some points, just trying to give you this one frame where the Punisher is shooting the Hulk, Spider-Man is on top. And that frame was for you to be like, wow. If I said in Hall H, I never thought I'd see those three characters on screen together.

31:04Sean Fennessey:Right. And that frame is meant to, like, elicit that response from you. Yeah, there's a much bigger thing going on here, which in theory will transpire over the next two Avengers movies where it's like, all right. all of us dorks have been waiting a really long time for everybody to be in the same movie. And we couldn't get the X-Men in the movie. We hadn't introduced all the other characters. Like they've introduced probably 80 % of the, maybe 90 % of the major Marvel characters now in movies. Like we've gotten pretty far, something like Ghost Rider or Blade. Like we haven't quite gotten everybody, but most of them are going to come around.

31:37Sean Fennessey:So they're going to fulfill all those dreams, desires, and wishes. But that doesn't change like what's in the actual movies, you know? And to me, I've been at war with this for years where I'm like, I'm getting these endorphin hits watching the films. And then I'm thinking about what happened in the film like an hour later. And I'm like, so what happened again? Which I find to be a little bit of a sign of the struggles that they have with the general storytelling as they try to manage delivering some of those moments to the audience. One of the things that the movie does, and I'm curious to hear what you guys think about it is, you know they introduced this idea of the arachnid dna essentially taking on a greater stronger presence in his body than what has come before and so this becomes kind of like a post-puberty pubescent story and we see that the webs start forming naturally inside of his body which is always the most wonderful sperm-laden metaphor yeah i remember it can't control himself just spurting everywhere.

32:40They make a point of calling them spider hormones. The spider hormones are surging, not like the spider DNA or the spider whatever is taking over. So yeah, it's not a complicated metaphor.

32:52Sean Fennessey:What did you think of how it was portrayed in the movie? It made a lot of sense. You know, in general, I feel like there's a lot of attention paid to puberty and then no attention paid to what happens after. And our bodies are always changing, as you know, because you just fell off the cliff. Are you off the cliff yet? I'm in the motherfucking canyon. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any corrective lenses? No, but like my, I got the reading glasses situation. Yeah. Yeah. I'm rapidly headed there. So I thought it made a lot of sense and is, you know, like a pretty neat literalization, not just of like, it's hard to grow up, but also the battle between being Peter and being Spider-Man and who are you going to be?

33:35and can all of these weird, crazy scientists help you? So it worked. I like your interpretation. You want to trot it out for the people?

33:42Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it feels like the whole movie is about Peter Parker trying to find the right SSRIs. You know, like the whole, the inhibitor that we talked about that he, you know, he observes that Bruce Banner is using and that the idea of manipulating science and technology to get your hormones in the right perfect balance. Like, I'm not sure how literally the screenwriters were thinking of this idea, but it reminded me a lot of talking to people who have had these experiences where they're just like, I was off and now I'm fine. And because I found what the right mix is for me. And it's a very common experience for a lot of people.

34:12Sean Fennessey:And I thought it was pretty clever and like deftly communicated that as Peter was getting older and getting, frankly, more depressed, dealing more with loss. And the true villain in this movie is loneliness. Yes, yes. And depression, you know. And being stuck on. Shout out Prozac, which I am, you know. I lost my girl. I lost my best friend. I lost my aunt. Like, I lost all these things. How do I deal with it? Can I make a crude, give the audience a crude understanding of just my general feeling and my connection to these movies? Do you guys ever have a friend that you have a lot of history with?

34:45So the friend makes inside jokes. You find the jokes funny, like legitimately hysterical because of your history with that person. And then sometimes there's a third person in the room and they go, that's not that funny. Or they go, it's kind of funny. They go, yeah, it's humorous, but Van, why do you find that person so funny?

35:06Sean Fennessey:Is this to you on every episode of this show? Is that what you're saying? No, but what I'm saying is that, like, for me— It's humorous. It's just you might as well just walk into the ocean. You know, that's just like, yeah, that is— Right, so for me, when I look at some of the stuff that's happening on the screen, like, for Spider-Man, even in Spider-Man 2, they do this exact same thing in the reverse, which is Spider-Man is going through something emotional so he actually loses his powers. If you remember, he can't see anymore. The webs aren't coming out because so much of who Peter Parker is is connected to his emotional state.

35:43Remember, he's trying to be a human being that has all of these relationships and has all of these people that he cares about and also trying to save New York City and be something more than what he is. And then also another thing about Spider-Man that is fundamental that this movie hasn't really struggled with as much is he's also always coming to terms with his power. Spider-Man is a much more powerful character than sometimes he is able to be. He pulls his punches when he is fighting people. He, like, doesn't use or can't control some of the aspects of his arachnid DNA that really make him almost a god-tier character.

36:20He's super strong and super capable. And this is the film. It's been done in other movies. that kind of wrestles with that. Like Spider-Man in his final mutation, how does he just not control what's going on emotionally in his life, but the damage he can do if he's unchecked?

36:38Sean Fennessey:I thought some of this stuff was really well done in the movie, actually. And they contrast it, and I think it really explains neatly why the Punisher is there. I mean, the Punisher, the Frank Castle character, and Spider-Man do have a long tradition together in the comic books. They're often pitted against each other. They have this uneasy alliance. Jon Bernthal has been playing the Punisher for a very long time. Never like this, His version of the Punisher is very R-rated and very violent. This one is PG-13 and pulling his punches on F-bombs and not quite going as far as he usually does. And making chili.

37:07Sean Fennessey:And making chili, yes. Having a lot of comic relief. But this movie gets Spider-Man right all the way up against the wall of how violent can Spider-Man be. Like, will he kill? Like, without the black suit? Without something like taking him off? Well, it is, I guess. It's kind of the version of the mutation, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like becoming a man spider instead of a Spider-Man. And I mostly like this. However, I feel that this movie is really indebted to two movies. And I was thinking of this immediately. I don't know if this occurred to you guys. I saw the movie sitting next to Joanna and we talked about it after I saw it.

37:45Sean Fennessey:The first one is The Dark Knight, which is the movie is immediately communicating like this is a darker Spider-Man movie. All the way to the point where in that opening tank chase sequence, like the tank literally flips upside down. into a building, a brick wall. And it is kind of almost feels like it's recreating the truck flip from The Dark Knight. But just the sense of like, there's a little bit more gravity and seriousness in this Spider-Man movie. The second one that I feel is unmistakable is The Matrix. That there is something about being the chosen one, harnessing your power, finding balance, particularly in that final conclusive battle sequence when he's like, I'm both.

38:19Sean Fennessey:When he communicates that he's both Spider-Man and Peter Parker. The fight sequences with the hand, I haven't even mentioned the hand. another canonical spider figures and even small stuff like the Jean Grey body jumping telepathic trick that she does which resembles the agents moving into people's bodies or fallen or fallen good shout Denzel Washington film yeah good movie but like there's even a moment literally in the movie where Jean body jumps into a helicopter pilot and like takes off it's like the same scene from the Matrix and I don't know if Destin Daniel Cretton was watching The Matrix or something but there are a lot of sequences where I was thinking of these movies.

39:00Sean Fennessey:Honestly, not a bad thing. The Matrix is 27 years old. If you're going to borrow from something it's kind of a cool idea. But it is interesting that in order to kind of like evolve the character it needs to lift some of the sentiments from other movies because I think we as viewers are kind of trapped between the two things that you're describing. One, the Holland films that we know. This is the fourth time we've seen him. They're a little bit brighter, a little bit chirpier, a little bit more like Mr. Stark, Mr. Stark. And then the Spider-Man that we know, which is like this 20-something guy who's trying to figure out his love life, who's trying to balance his career and also has this huge burden of being Spider-Man.

39:37Sean Fennessey:I feel like it was mostly pretty successful. I don't know. I'm kind of torn. It's weird to be like I'm the old guy now who sees The Matrix instantaneously when I'm watching a movie because when you're a kid, you don't know the movie references and you have to kind of catch up to them. And now I'm like, do the 25 year olds know that he's Neo? You know, that that's what they want you to feel? Do you think they'll enjoy it more or less if they know? I don't think it really matters. I mean, it's just interesting for me as a movie watcher to get to that phase of my life. You and I were talking about before we started recording how, and it's a little bit because after we saw this new movie, then we went back and did research.

40:14But I had a hard time remembering this movie before we recorded. And in fact, we rewatched the trailer just to refresh our, okay, oh, so there's this happened and there's that truck sequence and there's the hand and there's like the Punisher splash thing. So I will say just in terms of this set pieces and bringing all of those and the movie action that you're seeing on screen, if you're not there for the comic book nerdery of it all, and if you're not there being like, oh my God, it's the Dark Light or the Matrix. I don't know that they're the most memorable. And I do feel like some of the action stuff just blurred until you get to the hand blurred together a bit in my head.

40:59So to answer your question of will they enjoy it if they don't see those things? I mean, maybe they'll enjoy it more because they're not looking for references or maybe it won't feel reheated. Or maybe the action stuff falls a little flat until you get in person.

41:12Sean Fennessey:How did you feel then, both of you guys, about how Zendaya and Ned are used in the movie and how that story is communicated of them eventually reuniting? I thought that it was really well done. I thought that there are times in the movie, those are the characters in this film that challenge Spider-Man the most. Everything else is just an obstacle. Yeah. Everything else is just an obstacle. Spider-Man's going to win. He's going to get over this. they are going to get through the Punisher. He's going to get through the Hulk. He's going to get through the hand. He's going to figure it out. This is the one part of the movie to where you actually don't know if he's going to be okay.

41:52And that's another central thing about the character, which is not really being sure if Peter Parker is going to figure this out. He kind of does, but the movie doesn't give it to you. The movie, they are reunited, but not in the same way that they were. The end of the movie gives you hope that it could happen. so all the personal investment that you've made into the character of Peter Parker and really the kind of Scooby-Doo like Doctor Strange says element of his friend group helping him not everybody was a gigantic fan of that because once again it's kind of like Spider-Man by committee but that was the thing that worked the most because I'll be the guy in the chair yeah that was the thing that worked the most because that was the thing that undergirded the first three movies more than anything else him and his friends um At the very end, when he does the handshake with Ned, I did tear up.

42:43So, you know, clearly that worked for me, even though getting them back together is getting Ned back into the mix is a little labored. I thought the way that they used the MJ character and they used the Jean Grey of it all and her specific powers to bring MJ back into his life was quite effective and upsetting.

43:05Sean Fennessey:The false start setup is an excellent scene. Yeah, that's like one of the best scenes in the movie. I think a lot of the scenes, like even when Spider-Man comes back from this triumph and she's sitting there reading the letter, you're like, oh shit. I think most, you know, they're married. So I think. Yeah, they have great chemistry. They have great, hopefully, you know, for them. But like, I think. Did you watch the GQ Spider-Man trivia video that the cast did? No, I didn't see it. It was really, it was very entertaining, but where they were asked questions about Spider-Man lore and it was the whole cast.

43:38Sean Fennessey:and you know unsurprisingly Tom Holland got most of the questions right Zendaya got a couple right Jon Bernthal and Sadie Sink barely spoke during the entire quiz I relate they seem to not know and they were in the Dobbins chair but watching Zendaya how much she loves her husband was really interesting because she was just like leaning into him constantly laughing like turning making side jokes to him like and I agree you can kind of feel it in the movie like they just they vibe they have a thing and when they're together in the movie, the movie is really working. And you really want them, you really want her to wake up and remember.

44:11Sean Fennessey:Which is a credit to the storytelling. But also a credit to the storytelling that she, there's not a, I mean, it gives you the faint, and so it kind of gives you that moment and takes it away from you. But then MJ herself is just like, I don't know that person. Yeah, like it's really, it's like very smart and grown up. And she's like, I'm sorry, but that's not going to happen. Good luck. He's going to have to do it like he does everything else Spider-Man does the hard way. I think, you know, me connecting to the movie is obviously, like I said, part of my experience with the characters and part of that.

44:50I also, when I rewatched Spider-Man 2 and rewatched the original Spider-Man, I think the movies are close. I think this is by far the best one of the Marvel MCU Spider-Mans that they've made because it's really, to me, the only faithful adaptation of the character itself. Everything else was, to me, to get here. Right, Emily Wilson over here. I honestly don't. We've had this conversation on the Midnight Boys. We had a very ill-fated Midnight Court against - Doesn't like drumming either. So like I honestly have enjoyed the Tom Holland Spider-Man but have never really completely bought in because of how much they leaned him on other characters.

45:30This, whereas there were some team ups, Spider-Man was on point, running point at every time.

45:38Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's interesting to think about that. And I guess when we talk about ranking in movies, we can discuss that some. But I feel like part of the reason why they did it this way is very logical. Because there were two other very recent versions of Spider-Man that were more interested in the adult Peter that was dealing with some of these issues. So they had to differentiate somehow, right? I don't even think it was that. I think that those other Spider-Men don't have to worry about being woven into a larger universal narrative. That's true. So what makes more sense to do right here is because you already have Tony Stark, who is the big swinging of the MCU.

46:15Look at that self-edit. That's why I'm calling it. There's a lady in the room. the big swinging of the MCU to bring Spider-Man in, a character who is infinitely, infinitely more culturally relevant than Iron Man was at that point in every way. It makes sense to have Iron Man shepherd him and like steward him so that Spider-Man doesn't get in the way of the perfect art that you've created for Iron Man. He comes in under Tony Stark so that when you kill Tony Stark in Endgame, everybody is not thinking, oh, we still have Spider-Man. It doesn't matter. You know what I mean? And so it's the same problem that kind of Batman and Superman ran into because it was like, you bring Batman into the Superman movie.

47:03Is this a Batman movie? Is this a Superman movie? How do you split it? You think you want both people in that movie, but you really got to do it right. So this Spider-Man had to fit in to something that other Spider-Men haven't. It was their universe. This universe up to this point hasn't been his. yeah but I it struck me also how um much the Marvel tone has changed from the quippiness of Avengers 1 and 2 and even Spider-Man Homecoming and and Holland is kind of like the apotheosis of that and he was such a fit and cast into a universe that had already been established by Iron Man and R.E.J. and all of these people and the jokes or whatever.

47:46But that's what he's doing. In the first three, he's doing very quippy stuff and he's really good at it.

47:50Sean Fennessey:And that's very, to me, that's very true to Spider-Man, the wisecracking web slinger. That's a key component in the comics as well. They never really got it right in the movies though. You know who really got that right? Garfield. Garfield was the Spider-Man that was like, you pull out the knife and he goes, oh my God, oh my God, my weakness, small knives, small knives. And then he turns around. He was the guy that got that right more than anyone. Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man is so emotional. And so it works. Yeah. But as far as that version of the character. Kirsten Dunst just dragging him across three movies.

48:27But that's fine. That's fine. She always does it. Kiki forever. Yeah.

48:31Sean Fennessey:Not sure I agree with that take, but we can litigate that momentarily.

48:37Sean Fennessey:Let's talk a little bit more about Jean Grey. Okay, so she can control minds? That's what it is? That's what she's doing? Telepath telekinetic. Okay, so let's put that in... She can move objects with her mind. She can control people's minds. She can influence behaviors. She can... Mind control. It's powerful enough. Stop time, freeze time. She has... How is she? Because time is a construct. And it's just what's going on in our mind. She can make you... Okay. Have you ever seen the original X-Men? Which one? The ones with Patrick Stewart? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You ever see when, like, at the beginning of the second one, when everybody stops and you know that Xavier is about to come into the room because Xavier is the world's...

49:14Well, I don't know until he comes into the room, but yes. Well, as soon as that happened in theory, we started clapping because we knew Xavier was about to roll in. But, like, Xavier is the world's most powerful telepath. So he literally could be in, like, Wrigley Field watching MVP candidate Pete Crow Armstrong. wrong.

49:34Sean Fennessey:Please do not talk about that in front of me. Please, for the love of fucking God. It's the five year anniversary of that trade. Literally today. That's the cup that when we were at Wrigley last summer you were just like sulking. He's going fucking crazy. He's the best player. So he literally could be there as PCA steals three bases, hits two homers. I will fucking kill myself. I just saw Lucas say who in the booth, which right on Lucas. and so he could he could stay it's tough that's a tough one that's a tough one I mean look it's like look the Mets are so bad that's a tough one that is a tough one what is your baseball team?

50:14the Dodgers well that's not really real I know people are like that but I mean it's as well I mean listen you still haven't taken me to Dodger Stadium we have to go I know well I'm leaving town so why don't you work on a September ticket well they'll be here all the way through I know so but but yeah so like He could be in Wrigley Field and just stop everybody at the same time in their tracks because that's how strong of a telepath that he is. Okay. So she is also a telepath.

50:42Sean Fennessey:Obviously, in the movie, she doesn't realize how powerful she is. The movie is about her learning the extent of her powers. The movie does something kind of interesting to me, which is that it aligns Spider-Man and Gene, obviously, as outsiders. The movie is very much about outsiders. The X-Men story is about outsider people coming together to form a team and to better understand themselves in the world, yada, yada, yada. but Gene is a mutant and Spider-Man is a guy who got bit by a spider. Like they are different. Go on. Well, part of what's interesting about Spider-Man is what is, what is a mutant?

51:13Sean Fennessey:A mutant is you're born that way. Okay. She's, she was born with telepathic powers and they make, they may reveal themselves as you get older, but, but they're special earlier on. Historically, Spider-Man is raised with like a human morality, a human experience. Well, so are you, are you born that way? Is it, is it a genetic trait? So earlier on in the history of Marvel, this group of beings called the Celestials. Okay. Oh, so this is just straight Greek mythology. Oh, literally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the characters. I mean, I do know that. Or Norse mythology. Norse mythology. So they play with human DNA.

51:50And even the characters that have powers, this is really way too, this is like ridiculous. We don't even talk about this on Midnight Boys. Even the characters who have powers, they have a gene that lets them unlock those powers. So Spider-Man was born different because there are people in Marvel that the radioactive spider biting them would have killed them. There are people in Marvel that being exposed to the gamma, it would have killed them. But they have a different set of genes that's designed by the Celestials. The mutants are differently designed by the Celestials, meaning that their powers will manifest during puberty.

52:24Okay. and it's specified during puberty it comes out during puberty are the celestials different it's all a metaphor are changing bodies so are the celestials

52:38Sean Fennessey:what was puberty like for you did you have a good time I was about to ask have comic books gotten to perimenopause yet like what's up with Diana like at you know 42 she's a god oh that's right I know because she is she probably doesn't have to deal with it Yeah, yeah, yeah. But okay, who's a demigod? You know what? Oh, that's a woman. Jean is. They kind of deal with this. Jean will definitely go through it. Yeah. Those hot flashes will be insane. No, no, no. Before the hot flashes. Because Pyramid Falls is... Listen, it's just... You know who kind of went through this? They explored it a little bit in Watchmen a little bit as you watch her...

53:16Yeah, Carly Gugino and Malin Ackerman's characters. She talks about it a little bit. Aging superhero. Okay. Heroine. and she talks about a little bit some of the stuff they go into it that much but overall aging because these characters are supposed to be perpetually young is something that comics don't do very well unless they want to kill a character

53:34Sean Fennessey:this is something that distinguishes this movie Holland is actually older this is closer to perimenopause than puberty in terms of it was just like a different change it was a little bit sadder return for me for Spider-Man that was sort of what I was thinking for him where it was like oh I'm like Emerald Year I was like oh hey Chris Nolan's Emerald year is that true yeah he's also a Leo it was his birthday this week wow damn did you know it's our Emerald year a lot of Leos Jupiter's in our house or something I don't know what the hell is going on it's like it's just it's our time so just get ready get on board the other question I want to ask is are the Celestials different than the people that they made that movie about with that Chloe Zhao directed this is a no they're in the movie you know that they are that's the part you're fucking with me that's emerging from the earth.

54:22Sean Fennessey:Those are such a celestial. Yeah, no, I remember because I remember going like, yeah, yeah, yeah. She knows. You're a nerd. I know Greek mythology and so every time I go and I'm like, oh, you're doing this one, you know, once every three years they decide to actually acknowledge the text. I've never seen every MCU movie of the last eight years in theaters. But that movie was not called The Celestials. What was that called? The Eternals. The Eternals are creations of the Celestials. So the Eternals are just like the literal Greek gods. They're like Zeus, Hera, like all of those people. Sort of.

54:50The Turtles would be closer to the Greek gods and the Celestials would be the Titans. Yeah, exactly. Right, right, right. Okay. I mean, as soon as you said Celestials, I thought Titans. Great. Okay.

55:00Sean Fennessey:Spider-Man is different though because he's grounded in a changing experience. He's not like Superman where you're like born to do it. You know, if he doesn't get bitten. No, he's a demigod. Spider-Man is one of the characters and it's interesting when you listen to Stanley and Jack Kirby talk about this is that part of the reason why we have mutants is because they got sick of inventing ways for characters to get their power. It was, you went on a space mission and you were exposed to something and now you can stretch. It was, you were bit by a radioactive spire. It was, you got gamma rays or whatever.

55:34You're a Norse god. They just went, you know what? You're 13, you get the powers. And then they can just talk about whatever the powers are. And that's what the mutants became. But also, it also became really interesting social commentary, which the X-Men has always been. which is this tension between mutant kind and humankind, humans' ability to kind of like discriminate against mutants and try to control mutants, and then mutants wrestling with their genetic superiority and whether or not, obviously the central tension between Magneto and Professor X, whether or not they want to live alongside mutant kind or rule it and run it.

56:12And even in this movie... The Martin and Malcolm. Martin and Malcolm. The X-Men universe, yeah. And even in this right here, that is something that the character of Jean Grey is actually kind of dealing with. Because she has trauma, and that trauma is enough for her to really do, in this movie, some ghastly things. A person gets hit by a car, a taxi. That was when, in the movie, I started to think maybe it's not Jean Grey. Because, like, Jean Grey is a character that I can't see, even through all of her trauma. A lot of times, if the Dark Phoenix is not controlling her or influencing her, just like killing people for her own.

56:49Sean Fennessey:I would welcome an X-Men story that features a little bit more hard-edged storytelling. I think that's what they're going for. I think that would be to see the real Berserker Rage of Wolverine, to see the real Cyclops accidentally killing someone. They did that in Logan. But you know what I mean? Like in the wider MCU, one of the things about the MCU, I mean, Amanda was gesturing towards this. These have been very quippy, sort of candy-colored movies. And invariably, when you do this for long enough, you have to evolve the kind of story that you tell. Endgame had a great stakes, and people died.

57:18Sean Fennessey:But even then, there was a lot of jokes and this is a much more dour and sullen movie, as I said. And I don't want it to be totally joke machine, James Gunn style movie, but I don't want it to be depressing either. And so I think striking the balance is really challenging. I think it's the primary challenge of this movie is what tone are we meant to hit between zippy montages of Spider-Man fighting canonical bad guys and, you know, this guy who lost his best friend and his girl and, you know, figuring out how to deal with his hormones. And is, you know, basically an incel, but for good. Oh, damn.

57:55I mean, he is.

57:56Sean Fennessey:You know what movie this also reminds me of? Taxi Driver. Oh, wow. Tough. I mean, he's just like alone in the weird attic with like a lot of. But he's not. An incel is an involuntary celibate. He actually gets hit on by the girl in his apartment and goes, no, I don't want that. Because I'm stressed out about MJ. That's tough for you to call Peter Parker an incel. I said incel, but for good. Yeah. He's withholding his... No, yeah. Yeah. No. He's like Sterling Hayden in Doctor Strangelove. Yeah, he's withholding his essence. Yeah.

58:36You know, I think that there's one thing that tonally these movies, superhero movies in general are dealing with right now is that the MCU and other films remember this was a criticism of Zack's universe. A criticism of Zack's universe was that it was too dour. Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder. Leave my husband's name

59:01Sean Fennessey:out of your mouth. I think he could write a bad, he could be a hell of a writer. I would love to see his take on Ant-Man. I would love to see that paycheck. I would love to see his take on that. But But that these movies were easier to make. So glad you're here. These movies were easier to make when they were actually taken a little bit less seriously. What happened towards the end of the MCU's classic period is that people started to ask a lot of serious questions about superheroes. Superheroes, they started to say, okay, where are the women? Where are the black women? Where are the Asian Americans?

59:40Where are the things? and we were at peak woke era, which I hate saying that. I'm woke as shit. And people were saying, yo, there needs to be a reflection of some of the real world stuff that we're dealing with in these movies. And Marvel tried, and God damn it, they fucking failed. Yeah. I'll just be honest. They failed. They couldn't do it. Okay. And so I'll say this to say that, like, I don't think that it was a bad swing, but now when we talk about the films, people seemingly have soured on the quippiness and all of that stuff that they loved about the MCU. No doubt. They hated the Zack Snyder.

1:00:20I wish I knew his middle name now. The Zack Snyder universe because it was too dour. So now I think.

1:00:25Sean Fennessey:Zack Baron Snyder. Zack Baron Snyder. Okay. Now I think. Just send those checks right over. The films have to kind of find themselves and kind of figure out how they're going to do what they do. I think even, to be real with you, the Fantastic Four actually kind of struggled with this same type of push-pull thing. Was the Fantastic Four bright enough? Was the Fantastic Four fun enough? It seemed like they were fighting against themselves. Well, all those sequences in their apartment, you know, that stuff is a little dull, a little sullen, a little like Fate of the Universe is really the crisis at home stuff that is really hard to balance.

1:01:04Sean Fennessey:I think it's part of the reason his brain that's too big. Well, it's a great responsibility. Like being a Spider-Man. Why hasn't Christopher Nolan made one of those movies? He did. He made The Dark Knight. No, I meant, you know, Fantastic Four. I know, but that's still the best superhero movie, would be phenomenal. It's called Oppenheimer. It's literally called Oppenheimer. That's actually, look ahead. Genius. But like the thing about that character is in a lot of ways, and I don't want to come over here and shit on the Fantastic Four, But in a lot of ways, the failure of that movie, to me, is in the character of Reed Richards.

1:01:39Just a relentlessly fascinating character.

1:01:44Sean Fennessey:I agree. Miscast, though, that's really the biggest problem. Wrong actor. Miscast, the smartest man in the universe who consistently believes, and they almost always, they almost kind of did it with Tony Stark. Who, who, what? What? What? I just, no, I was just remembering last summer, and I, just this shot from Materialist, where Pedro Pascal, spoiler alert, where Pedro Pascal just like sinks down. Oh yeah. That's the best thing that's happened in movies in 30 years and has nothing to do with this conversation. I wanted to love that movie much more than I did. I thought it was okay. But anyway, to you, these sort of tonal middle grounds, it's a problem.

1:02:22It's just hard. They're comic books. It's really, really hard

1:02:25Sean Fennessey:to balance this stuff. And you're right. They were taking these movies more seriously because they've been so dominant for 15 years and we expect a lot out of them. I certainly have and part of the reason I've been so critical the last five years is I'm like I think you guys can do better at this point not worse and some of these movies are getting worse and that isn't great this isn't worse this is not a step back to me it's maybe not it's definitely not my favorite but I it would have been very easy for me to come in and be mad and I wasn't mad at the movie at all and it's also hard to be it's not hard to be that successful but there is a real where do you go because people want the exact same but also something new you know and so at some point it's just they've been doing this for almost 20 years, and it's hard to please people the way that you did 10 years ago.

1:03:08And you can't take breaks, right? Like with James Bond, we've been making those movies since the 60s, but what we do is we take a couple of breaks, a couple of years, breaks, sometimes five, 10-year breaks.

1:03:17Sean Fennessey:It's about to be a six-year break. Right, six-year breaks, and then you pull back and you go, okay, new director, new James Bond, everything are new. Everything's new, right? With these movies, because they're essentially one gigantic comic book, and now they're rolling, and the economy of it, the economics of it are so crazy. It's difficult to actually do the type of reset that they would need to do. I know. So you're getting into where I think we need to go. So before we go there, we'll get into what's next for the MCU, box office predictions, and our Spider-Man movie rankings right after this.

1:03:50Sean Fennessey:This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Every episode we break down what's worth your time, what to watch, what to skip, what to put on the list. But some things on the list aren't exactly fun to get to, like sorting out your coverage. It's not a blockbuster. It's just one of those things that matters. That's where State Farm comes in. One of their 19 ,000 local agents can walk you through your options in person over the phone or through their easily accessible app and help you get the coverage that's right for you. so you can get back to the fun stuff, like arguing about movie rankings.

1:04:17Sean Fennessey:Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Okay, so you've set up a really interesting series of discussions because there's a bunch of things that now are going to happen that have to happen. What you're hinting at is how, essentially Tom Holland can't get off the Spider-Man train. And it seemed like in some reporting recently, including that your husband did, he's been weighing in his mind whether to continue to be Spider-Man. Hitman 4. how much longer can a man be a Spider-Man like this? No one's ever made four movies as Spider-Man until now. And so I think that there's a question of, I'll phrase it this way.

1:04:56Sean Fennessey:Coming out of the movie, I turned to Joanna and I said, over under two and a half more Tom Holland Spider-Man movies. So what do you say to that? Does this include? Not Doomsday, just Spider-Man colon. two and a half under under what do you say two and a half under I think he'll do two more exactly okay Joe said over which I thought was interesting okay and I just need him to make the Fred Astaire movie I think he's gonna do that I know but like I think he's gonna do all that stuff he seems to have the prestige bug now that he's done the Odyssey yeah you guys that movie had better work like he's a phenomenal dancer very likable that is a beloved American cultural icon that hasn't really been dipped that movie better work because if you really want to know the reason why he's playing Spider-Man again it has nothing to do it has more to do with Cherry and the other movie where you couldn't where you could hear people's emotions and all of those films than it does with this yeah like it like his other stuff hasn't worked it hasn't worked and so and so he this happens People catch cold ones.

1:06:10They pick the wrong scripts. He's talked about it. But one of the reasons why he will play Spider-Man, he loves the character. I think he has different expectations of the characters in the movies after having worked with Christopher Nolan. I really do believe that that's real. But the Fred Astaire thing will be a referendum on whether or not Tom Holland is capable. Can exist outside of Spider-Man. Yeah.

1:06:31Sean Fennessey:I don't really know. He was my least favorite part of the Odyssey. you know and I know some of it is the character the way that it's written and what you know what purpose it serves in the story but I also just thought his performance was not very strong the exact opposite in this movie in this movie I thought he was great I think this is his actually best performance as Spider-Man whether you even like the story or not because he's given more to do I'll say just cynically I'll go over and just say I think he'll make three more of these because he's really good at it and what we have seen is that other spider stories can probably live alongside these movies.

1:07:04Sean Fennessey:The Spider-Verse movies are happening and are working. Let's all get prepared to see a real Miles Morales in Doomsday. I think that there's a chance that something like that happens. And then all of a sudden, we're getting the No Way Home version where Holland is the old guard 10 years from now. All of that is in play too. So, was your question to Joanna in the main Spider-Man movie, is he the main Spider-Man. I didn't specify that. Because that, you know, I could see, he'll show up. He's definitely Chris Evans vibes where it's like, even if he tries to quit in 15 years, they're pulling him right back in.

1:07:47That's right. It also depends on what works, right? Because I can make this thing an argument for Chris Evans. I think Cap had a pretty final arc in Endgame. And maybe if Chris Evans has found tremendous success outside of this, maybe he's not picking up the shield again. Did you see Ghosted? I did see Ghosted. What'd you think? Terrible. I saw, so not only that one, but you know what one that Kalika liked? Remember one where he had to like rescue Santa Claus? What was that called? Red Notice? Red Notice. No. No. Red One. Red One. That's close. Completely absurd Sunday one o 'clock watching. A horrible movie.

1:08:29Look, completely absurd. The afternoon on Sunday when you're just relaxing, man. Don't know what that's like. The critical meter goes way down. Like you see Jumping Jack Flash on TV and you go, Jesus Christ, I feel so amazing to have caught Jumping Jack Flash. But I'll say about him though, like same thing. I think you have one more Furthering Spider-Man's Adventures and then I think you make a last one where potentially Peter Parker could be killed. And mirroring the story that happens. I will lose my shit. I'll be so upset. And Miles Morales can take over at Spider-Man. Maybe. Depending on how Miles Morales is received.

1:09:11Don't kill my sweet little boy, you know?

1:09:14Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Okay, I want to talk about X-Men and Doomsday, but since we're leading into this, I'm a little dubious of what you just suggested happening that quickly because this movie could make$2 billion. The tracking, I think the domestic tracking is around like 300 plus million which is fucking insane. Now some of it is like premium large formats and tickets cost more but the last Spider-Man movie made 1.922 billion. It was, you know, coming out of COVID but before Top Gun Maverick. Yes. And this was really the movie that was the first mega success December 2021. Yes. Do you think this movie makes more than that movie?

1:09:57Sean Fennessey:Yes. Yes. We're back plus inflation. I think you're right. This would be fascinating to me because I don't think that this movie is going to be, it's not going to have the same highs in the theaters that No Way Home represented. It was impossible for any Spider-Man movie to have that type of highs. No Spider-Man movie could ever have it. Do you think people will go see this movie three and four times? I think so. I think there's just no way to, if you take, the multiverse is the highs of No Way Home are as much about real world business as they are about the story you just there were things that you couldn't have done before you weren't going to be able to do them put three people in the movie together now you have all your Spider-Men just think about right now if Christopher Reeve were still with us and like at some point Corn Sweat is like in the Fortress of Solitude and he walks in like in his 70s even in the suit.

1:10:53It's just like, you're going to go nuts. What about Brandon Routh? Brandon Routh, all of them. Even if you saw all, I mean, literally like that. Henry Cavill. Henry Cavill. That would really go crazy if they did something multiversal and they brought Henry Cavill in and people would go crazy. George Reeves. Isn't Henry Cavill on some sort of Netflix IP show now? And now he's like, he's not the Punisher, but he's like the Witcher. He's not on that anymore. What's his name? It's the Witcher now. Wow. Henry Cavill keeps getting written off. What's the, the Hemsworth brothers, the Witcher. Liam Hemsworth.

1:11:24Liam Hemsworth is the Witcher? I think that he's the Witcher now. What does the Witcher do? I don't really know much about the Witcher. Wow, I've reached the end of your knowledge of this stuff? I think that's a video game. I don't really watch. I don't fuck with Harry Potter. So what I would say is the highs of that, I think, are probably just stuff that we didn't think could happen. But I will say, maybe Miles can maybe get there for some people, perhaps. But to me, at some point, this version of Peter Parker will end his watch because this version of Tom Holland, I think has caught the serious, I'm being taken serious actor bug.

1:12:03And if that Fred Astaire movie does go crazy and he does get a nomination and the dancing is all it is, and he's not going to want to put the suit back on. And I think that that's more prevalent with these characters. The only guy who I know that loves doing this that would pay 50 times is Hemsworth. Loves Thor, would be in Thor, play Thor until he died. Everyone else kind of tries to get out until they get pulled back in. Kind of respect. There's something beautiful just about finding your purpose, you know, and just being like, I am content. Very Australian, I guess. Just I'm Thor. And here I come as Thor.

1:12:43Sean Fennessey:that's a lot of caveats I think to what you're describing you know well like Connery went back to Bond in the 70s you know with the hair piece going big time so it's a real never say never because he is really good and people have a big relationship to him I'm really really interested in the box office of this movie not just because I'm interested in the box office of every movie do you have it in your league? I believe so I'm sorry that was dismissive it's not a little league it's a large league there are a great many do you do this? do you do like movie fantasy drafts and all that sort of stuff?

1:13:12I think it's awesome, though. That's great. I think it's really fun.

1:13:14Sean Fennessey:I'm glad to have you on record. Remember they had, back in the day, in like the 2000s, they had like, you could buy like fake stock in movie stars and movies and stuff like that. Sure, Hollywood Stock Exchange. Yeah, we should do that at TMZ. I did that, of course. Yeah, it was fun. I am interested in this one particularly because I do think that there will be a contingent of people who go to see this movie who are a little disappointed by it. I don't think it has that quite that same emotional, like wow factor that No Way Home does. And I think this is a better made movie. Like No Way Home has a really kind of like ugly CGI finale to it.

1:13:47Sean Fennessey:You know, it's like, it's not a great movie, but it has like a lot of, it delivers a lot of feelings. No Way Home is, to me, infinitely more flawed than this movie is. And like... I just don't think it's high as there is high. I agree. Like, I agree. I think the last... When Andrew Garfield saves MJ. That's amazing. Come on. What's wrong with you? that's phenomenal but like there's not a moment in this movie that hits that moment to me nah of course but once again like it's like when they hug at the end before they have to go come on all of that's awesome but like there are large portions of No Way Home to me that just like when you go back especially on the rewatch they just aren't that good you're literally just getting to those points of the movie they bring all the villains back they're so funny that doesn't work at all what happened to Happy?

1:14:34Sean Fennessey:Happy Hogan well what did I write in the document here I mean what this movie does I think is somewhat less successful is it introduces Liza Colonzeus as Sergeant DeWolf and she kind of occupies the Happy Hogan role in this movie. Yeah, sort of like adult Commissioner Gordon. I wrote Commissioner Gordon here actually. Yeah, same thing. Like this sort of law enforcement figure grown up who's kind of keeping Peter in line and it was a little bit like who's this lady when I was watching the movie I was like they're throwing a lot of new characters at you they're throwing a lot of new setup at you.

1:15:09Okay, but so let's trace it out here because Florence Pugh is in this as the Black Widow.

1:15:14Sean Fennessey:We didn't even mention her. I actually really enjoyed her, but again, I was like one more character. Yeah, she's very funny. She's filming in one location and her office is a Russian bathhouse. Yeah, she literally is on a Zoom call. Yeah, it's really funny. She's great. And so does she remember that Peter, that Spider-Man was an Avenger? Yes, everybody remembers. Well, Happy doesn't because where's Happy? Happy does remember that Spider-Man was an Avenger. Well, then why isn't he in touch with... Because he doesn't know that Peter is Spider-Man. Yeah. But we don't see Spider-Man in touch with Happy at any point, do we?

1:15:49Sean Fennessey:I don't know. Happy's just not in it. He's just not in the movie. Yeah, why not? He just completely abandoned Spider-Man. What's that about? Well, because he only knows Spider-Man as Peter, right? Well, no. He knows Spider-Man. Like, remember at the end of No Way Home, it's like, how did you know? I know it was Spider-Man. Like, they're talking about that. but there's no Peter Parker so Happy might be into some Spider-Man but who knows where Happy is right now Stark is dead who's taking care of all of that stuff also Peter just learned how to bioengineer everything all by himself he's a genius he's a brilliant kid that's why he got bit by the spider in the first place he's like a rising science student his classmate went to MIT and graduated I know because he lobbied on the bridge to that nice MIT admissions officer to reconsider them.

1:16:39But Tony still made the suits for him. Yeah. Okay.

1:16:43Sean Fennessey:But not in this film. When was that transfer of knowledge? I just, you know. He made a suit in Spider-Man Far From Home. Remember he uses at the end of the movie he's coming back he makes he uses the engineering stuff to like make changes to all kinds of stuff. Okay. I'll say this. That was always one of the reasons why I thought pairing him and Tony was cool. Because they did have that. They were both kind of like inventors. They had that kind of spirit of science in their characters. This is a reason why people were against, in the comic books, Peter having organic web shooters. Because organic web shooters, like the web shooters are the demonstration of the genius of Peter Parker.

1:17:21And so a lot of times when Peter Parker is fighting, he thinks his way through the fight. Not unlike Batman and stuff.

1:17:29Sean Fennessey:I didn't love that Peter wouldn't realize that there would be a static electricity from his eyes in the movie. you know or MJ has to point that out to him. MJ got to be a woman in STEM which is really important. It is important. Like me every day. Which to be honest with you is which to be honest with you is something that happens in this movie right? Because you have those types of characters surrounding him a lot of times you have to sacrifice his genius and his character to like spread the ball around a little bit. The self-evident and also lightly offended way that you both said well he's a genius to me was very special.

1:18:04I will say this though like you know Batman show me the tests like Batman either Batman can do it or he can't like like you know he's a genius he's a genius you know like Captain America not a genius yeah if he built it you'd be like you can't do that you're good at leading and telling people what to do and fighting but he I mean I know that he goes to the special science school you know but there are many geniuses at the special science school Manhattan Science School?

1:18:36Sean Fennessey:No, isn't it like Midtown Science and Tech? Something like that. Okay, sure. Yeah. It's genius. Okay. This movie doesn't have a stinger. Doesn't it have the location tracking thing? That doesn't count? I mean, it's barely a stinger, right? It's a stinger that's showing that there's something happening in space. What do you think that meant? Do you think that meant there's another Spider-Man that has been being picked up by the Spider-Tracker in space? Another reality? I think I've read a lot of theories and watched a lot of theory videos on it. Obviously, it leads into Secret Wars and Doomsday in some kind of way.

1:19:14Maybe there's another Spider-Man, another reality. Maybe it's picking up Venom. Like, who knows? That wouldn't make a whole ton of sense. But it's obviously... Isn't the symbiote, like, a huge part of Secret Wars?

1:19:27Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Like, Black Spider-Man? The original Secret Wars. Certainly, yeah. I'm wondering if they're going to try to... bring Tom Hardy in and fuse all that stuff back together. They could. We went back and looked. Amanda is shopping right now. I'm Googling Tom Hardy's Secret Wars. We went back and looked. I previously Googled The Punisher. And I really, I was happy to see John Bernthal. Can we talk about Frank Castle real quick? Yeah, I have no idea who that was. And that's one where I just kind of nodded. And the movie communicates that John Bernthal is a rough around the edges mentor-like figure to Tom Holland's Spider-Man.

1:20:02And that's enough. That's all I needed. But I had absolutely no idea.

1:20:06Sean Fennessey:That's not really what he is in the comics. They're usually at odds, even though they're both working. I've learned that from the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page. Yeah, obviously they have very different approaches to fighting crime. One guy wants to blow shit up and shoot rockets at them and the other wants to save lives.

1:20:24Okay.

1:20:25Sean Fennessey:I don't think Bernthal is a great punisher. Why? I know that that is really going against the grain. Yeah. Now he's never coming on this podcast. And I've never asked him to, so I'm not really worried about that. I know that everyone thinks he's great and perfect. And maybe it's just because I haven't really loved his appearances throughout these Marvel movies. Did you watch the show? Parts of it, yeah. And I'm like, to me, that was a little too hot and this one's a little too cold and we haven't gotten to just right. And to me, he's not like a super quippy character, but also I don't think he's like, like the, like new metal, like super, like, I can't describe how, what doesn't work to me about the more serious hard edged version of him, but it never really clicked for me.

1:21:10Sean Fennessey:Not that like Dolph Lundgren did or whatever. Who was it? Thomas Jane was the other one. Like, I don't know that they've quite nailed it yet, but. I literally think that he was born to play the role. I know a lot of people say that and I understand it. I just, I've never felt that way. Yeah. So I think it's interesting in this one is, because I look at this, this is not the traditional portrayal of the Punisher, right? The Punisher is an ex-Marine who had a psychotic break after his family was killed by the mafia and decides he will kill every bad guy that he sees. He is an expert hand-to-hand fighter.

1:21:49He is a sensational marksman. He is just a born killer and he is killing to fill the hole in his soul from the death of his parents from the mafia. So Punisher don't play around. There's a part in Captain America Civil War, this is part in the Civil War comic, where Civil War is where all of these characters fought each other. And so Captain America's side has to go out and recruit villains to help them because they're down some people. Where the Punisher walks into the movie, walks into the meeting, sees all the villains and just kills all of them. Oh, okay. Setback, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then Captain America tries to beat the shit out of him or does beat the shit out of him and Punisher won't fight back.

1:22:29So he's just like, bad guy, see the bad guy, kill the bad guy. I thought this portrayal of him was interesting because it seemed as if no one can get through Frank Castle in this universe. Daredevil wasn't able to. To emotionally connect with him. To emotionally connect with him. And I thought it was interesting in this one to have this be a display of what Peter's superpower it really is, which is that Peter, through his intention and his goodness and his method, can make, he can soften people. He can make people kind of like see themselves as human beings. So even Punisher, who is a killer, like is a criminal and a killer, when he's around Peter, he can't help but be a little bit better, which is like what you've seen throughout these movies from the character.

1:23:20now I will say to a lot of people that just watch Punisher One Last Kill in which he kills probably probably around 70 or 80 people maybe more in some of the most brutal ways and then to see him come back in this one where he won't even say the fuck word it's probably a pretty knee-jerking situation even though at the end of Last Kill he supposedly learned some lessons

1:23:49Sean Fennessey:It's an odd choice, I think, for that to have just come out and then for us to be whiplashed into, like I said, PG-13. No shots at Bernthal. I'm a big fan of his, but hashtag not my punisher. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods. It's hot out there, folks. Whether you're planning a family road trip, backyard barbecues, or a watch party, you'll find everything you need to beat the heat with the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. Find sales on best of summer fruit, Stock up on cooler friendly drinks and discover no antibiotics ever meets for the grill. You know, something like a New York strip steak plus made in-house kebabs, skewers and sausages.

1:24:28Sean Fennessey:Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online. Get your first delivery free with Prime. Terms apply. Evening. Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car? I'll be moving in. Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no... No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyer's rejoice? I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyer's rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. You more or less were the same excited for Doomsday at this point?

1:25:11Yeah. I mean, the stuff that we saw at Comic-Con, I think, changed everybody's mind. like they're they the the first trailer from doomsday came out and people were lukewarm on

1:25:21Sean Fennessey:it okay well let me before you go any further and talk about that because obviously we saw that doomsday trailer in april why did they put that trailer out which one the the one that was publicly released like why did they actually why was that two weeks ago why was that the why was that the trailer they chose to put out i don't know like i really don't understand it it it it seems i i It is clearly a bad trailer. Like, I wasn't as offended by it as other people were, but every single criticism that people have of it, I completely understood. Whereas the one that they put out in Hall H, you would have to not have a pulse, like, to not be interested in the movie after this.

1:26:02It's more grounded in the character of Doom himself, which the first one is not at all, meaning even though Doom is a central character. and he does something at the end of the trailer that is so fucking cool and so badass that you want to go watch him for two and a half hours on screen. So I have no clue why they did it. You want to go watch him for two and a half hours on screen. I'm just so depressed that two and a half hours is not the standard runtime that we reach for when talking about one of these films.

1:26:35Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I can't share this information, so I won't say what I'm going to say, but I know something interesting about run times relative to the rest of this year. Okay. I'm wondering if it will change the game. I'll leave it at that. I'm going to see Doomsday. I hope it's good. I've been on that. I am also going to see it and I also hope it's good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What will my definition of good be? We'll find out. Well, you know what you said earlier about Thomas Crown Affair? Yes. Like, there are some of these movies that are nearing masterpiece status, right? There are some of these movies that are perfect emotional rides and perfect storytelling.

1:27:10And we've had a couple of those highs in the comic book era. Dark Knight obviously is a very self-serious kind of examination of the morality of people, what you're willing to do, how far you're willing to go. So Nolan obviously is on a different level with being able to craft narrative in the human condition. But then you also have perfect comic book movies like Guardians of the Galaxy, or, which I think is a phenomenal film, Captain America, Winter Soldier. and then even to a point the combination of Infinity War and Endgame which offer a perfect arc for two or three different characters. For Thanos, for Captain America, for Iron Man, right?

1:27:54But the main thing is having fun at the movies. And you can't have fun at the movies when you're insulted by how bad and cynical something is. I get it. I understand. And there have been some of these movies that are bad and cynical and it breaks the deal that the audience makes with the film. But if you go and you have fun at the movies with people flying around, you probably won. Totally agree. You probably came out ahead.

1:28:20Sean Fennessey:I wish my mind could work that way. Unfortunately, I'm trapped within my own superpower of overthinking about every single movie that's ever released. But that's my burden. That's my great responsibility. I overthink these movies too, but I think that like... I think what you just explained is representative of 97 % of people who go to movies. Right. Which is like, I would like to have a good time. Yeah. And I think this Spider-Man movie is an interesting test of that. Because it is trying to be a good time, but also trying to be a serious examination of a lone man. And also trying to further the story in some ways that are cynical and some that feel natural towards a progression.

1:29:00Sean Fennessey:And that's why it's a mixed bag to me. You know what's interesting about this is I also think that this has a lot to do with kind of what, obviously your level of fun that you have for a movie has to do with what wheelhouse movies are in. Right? Yeah, of course. My father loved westerns. So there are some westerns that are, to me, slow, whatever. But my dad loves being in the world. A thousand percent. Yeah. the whole disclosure day thing is like a lot of people went to the movie. I thought that the movie was bad, but then a lot of people just went like my mom went to it. She's like, I had fun.

1:29:35Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Like, like, like I, like I had fun inside of the movie and she came away having like half the shit in that movie is completely unexplained. And like, to me for a movie that's trying to be cerebral, didn't make a lot of sense, but there was also just some cool shit in that motherfucker that made it like fun for my mother and my sister to go see. And they really enjoyed it. So part of this is like what you bring into the movie with you if it's just about fun. Yes. It's funny that you bring that up. So we can use this as segue into our Spider-Man rankings. I just rewatched Spider-Man 3, the third Ramey movie, which has one of the toughest reputations of the Spider-Man movies and obviously signaled the end of the Tobey Maguire Ramey era.

1:30:17And I thought a lot of Disclosure Day when I was rewatching it because I was like, this movie has some script problems.

1:30:24Sean Fennessey:It's a little baggy at times. it's a little bit like it seems like it's going down a road and then it doesn't follow through on some of the storytelling instincts and then on the other side of it there's some stuff that Ramey is doing with the action and the set pieces where I'm like well there's like one person on earth who can do this and I felt the same way watching Disclosure I'm like there's one guy in the world who can make a movie that looks and feels like this and it's a similar kind of balance that you're describing about whether or not you can have fun at the movies and what you're going to the movies for and whether a movie can sweep you away or not despite having a problem with the plot or feeling like a character has been jammed in there to serve mcu long-term purposes or whatever and but isn't that but isn't that just the fact that like and i'll just say that seeing spider-man 3 again i was like this is better than i remember it and it and i the same thing happened to me but isn't that in part of that just the fact that because of your understanding and craft and your relationship with the filmmaker that there's only so bad that the movie can be.

1:31:24Sean Fennessey:That's exactly what I wrote on Letterboxd. I was like, I can only ever feel so low on a movie because I see what this person does in a way that really moves me. Now, let me say something about that. Is that is respected to me. That feeling is respected to me everywhere else except for this genre. Because I'll tell you what I mean. So I am called a fanboy because I simply admit to the audience. I go, look, if people, man, when I was a kid, if there was a part of a sitcom where somebody acted like a superhero, like I would go like this. Right. Like it didn't matter who it was. It was fucking Mighty Mouse.

1:32:04It was whatever it is. If you had a cape and you were flying around like I was enamored with. And I completely admit that for me, my bar of enjoyment, not quality. This is not this is a taste thing. Right. It's not a it's not a critical thing. My bar gets lowered when people start flying around and using their powers. Of course, there are tremendous disappointments. I think, though, everybody has a different version of that. I think. Yeah, I think everybody has a different version of that. People who love the horror genre. They love horror movies to where I go. Yo, not only was that grotesque, it was offensively bad.

1:32:42You know what I mean? so I just I think that I think across the board that is a thing for like for you with like some of the well no I was gonna say that I think because you posed it in the terms of you know is is there no prestige attached to to to your genre where no no I don't think my genre is is is it lends itself to prestige well yeah and I think that I think the kind of the YA and romance fans which I think are actually distinct from romantic comedies at this point but are very passionate fan base and with like very defined rules about what happens in those and those movies, books, shows, whatever they are.

1:33:20And if it checks those boxes or does something well enough that speaks to something that they care about in a very specific way, I think they accept it. And they are like, you know, they're fangirls essentially. And I think it's understood kind of similarly. The horror people have done a very smart trick where they've elevated, their passion into cinephilia. And so as soon as something hits a certain trope of, look, this amazing killer, this amazing technical shot. And there is a lot of technical expertise that goes into all of this. But once a horror movie hits certain checklists...

1:34:00Sean Fennessey:This can change, though. I mean, you're making a very smart point. Horror, though, is grounded in a historical cinematic achievement. You know, like Frankenstein being a film in the 30s that changes film forever or Dracula. Right. And then you move on through time and The Exorcist becomes one of the greatest and most successful films of all time. Silence of the Lambs winning Best Picture. There is this, this might happen for superhero movies, probably less likely for YA. Yeah. But you never know. It's just that there's not as much history to move against here too. Right. But think about the movies that you named, right?

1:34:33So The Exorcist is like a morality tale that has to do with the existence of God, the nature of evil. Those are weighty things. Frankenstein, once again, another movie based on this seminal text that has to do with man's relation to creation. Those movies are horror movies, but they're also elevated tales of the human condition. Terrifier is not. okay and terrifier is a perfectly absurd and fun ride i'm fucking hypnotized by it but that is also a movie that over the last 10 or 15 years has become a bellwether in new horror and it's a it's an insane clown running around and killing people and the horror fans the true horror fans they love it well that movie

1:35:26Sean Fennessey:that franchise speaks to what Amanda is describing which is like the cinephilia of the gnarliest kill and the sort of like the extravagance of the gore effects that are being done I'm really interested in this you're talking about this idea of subjectivity and it's not taste it's personal preference right it's like what's a specific kind of story that you like what's a specific kind of story that you like and what's one that I like and mine is often like well I have a big relationship to the person who made it and so I'm interested in the choices that they're making so that's my subjectivity so I'm going to be more forgiving of Disclosure Day the same way you what's an example of a movie that you were like I'm willing to be more forgiving of a movie like this because it's in a lane that I really like I mean don't do it what was I about to say I have no clue I thought you were about to I don't I don't know I think it's honestly more practical magic no because I don't really I don't really care about that yeah go ahead Challengers like that's a movie that like if you listen to Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris talk about it, they were like, this is one of the worst movies of the year.

1:36:25Sean Fennessey:And you were like, this is right in my sweet spot. It's a much more acclaimed movie, but you know what I'm talking about, where it's like, that hits so many things you like. But basically what he's asking, and what you're asking, it's like, yeah, for the things you like in a movie, if they show up in a movie, then you respond to them, you know? And what I like in a movie is, you know, a lot of style and good music and handsome people, like maybe or maybe not fucking, you know? All set to Luca Guadagnino. And so - One of our core interests. I think I like that too. Yeah, exactly. And so you also liked challengers.

1:36:55And so sometimes a romantic comedy, you know, fills that void for me. Sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes like a drama with people talking fills that void for me and sometimes doesn't. Like, you know, my problem is not my problem, but the reason that I don't have any sort of reason I'm not just like losing my mind all the time on this podcast as much is because I don't have anyone like genre. I just have like a bunch of hallmarks and different things and movies where I'm like, oh, yeah, they did this. And now I'm really excited. But it really is just what do you like and what do you not like?

1:37:25Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I try as best as I can. I sometimes fail, but I try to use the word favorite instead of best. I've used the word best many times, you know, in an effort to draw attention to something. But it's really more about like, what are you responding to? And I always find it interesting to talk about comic book movies with you because I know there's a part of you that is like defending your younger self for having all your dreams realized. And then there's another part of you that is like, this actually makes me happy in a profound way. and looking for the middle is like where the truth lies. And I have my versions of that as well.

1:37:55Sean Fennessey:That's not a judgment against you. No, no, no. I completely understand. I think that's very true. I also think this though. There's one thing that, and you guys know me by now, we've friends and colleagues for a while. One thing that, and this is probably a passion of, like a result of my ADHD, right? One thing that bothers me more than anything is when I feel like something is unfair, right? like take comic book movies out of it a mob movie there's only so bad if somebody walks into a room and goes hey you're gonna be made today i'm like oh shit yeah he's gonna be made yeah he grew up in fucking uh canarsie right and the big boss told him to come down and get his pen yeah you know i'm saying like i mean sure mine is a makeover right it's like oh like oh like oh we're going shopping and I'm just like okay well a montage let it roll you are a mob movie fanboy you've seen all of the movies you love them and sometimes I think that mine is in a Paul Schrader movie when a guy's writing in his journal whenever that happens I'm like it's fucking odd this guy's writing in his journal late at night whereas some of this stuff is slop and it's so commodified these are corporate I'm copying to it These are corporately owned characters that we're going to tell these stories every five years because we have to.

1:39:19Yeah. Because like there's a specific value that's attached to it. We talked about this in He-Man. We had him on like we're in He-Man. He-Man, not a perfect movie. But when he pulled the sword out and when I have the power, that was just like it was in a cartoon. And like I'm sitting there and I'm sitting there in front of my girl. I'm like, I'm about to cry. I was moved. You know what I'm saying? I was absolutely moved.

1:39:44Sean Fennessey:Movie is not very good, but in that moment, I was absolutely moved. I think I'll just cop to it right now. Almost every single criticism of comic book movies has been fair, except for one thing, which is the criticisms of the fans of them. And so every single thing that has been said has been fair. It is like fair and maybe more than fair. Maybe the comic book movie industry needed to have its ass kicked and needed to fail and scale back so that there was room for obsession and room for back rooms and room for the drama and room for people to go and expand their cinematic palette outside of whatever these studios were going to throw at people with a cape.

1:40:29I get that. I just think in the last, and it hasn't happened here, I just think in the last four or five years, some of the criticisms of the fans and the people who are really dedicated to this has been a little bit unfair. Man, I went to Comic-Con, and there's a company, this company right here, and they make wheelchairs that is based off the comic book characters so that kids can go around the floor on Battle Cat and stuff like that. And I don't mean to be... I mean, that's the best thing in the world. Yeah, I don't mean to be overly earnest, but we were talking about it before I don't know how I feel about Comic Con I might be above my pay grade but it was a lot of people there that this is their whole fucking life and I think that I'm a little bit probably overprotective

1:41:10Sean Fennessey:I think when you see criticism of the fans I try to not criticize fans of things I think it's because when things are down fans get defensive and we live in a time of social media so you have a lot of interaction between people where they're like you don't like what I like, fuck you and that breeds some division. There's always a small but vocal group of bad fans of any genre. Of any organized group of people, right? And so when you start hearing from those. We're really toxic. Super toxic. Your point is well taken. I was thinking about it. It really bothers you. That's funny. It was for six months of hobby bias.

1:41:48Sean Fennessey:Three months of hobby bias. It's a tough trade. Might be the best player in the sport. Yeah, I'm sorry. I was just thinking about how I guess my version of I'll watch any is really, you know, in Anyone But You, when they have the, which is not a good movie. The shower scene, is that what you're going to say? No, that's okay. No, the climactic set piece. Any movie with a shower scene, I'll watch. I mean, you know what? Me too. Remember Ben Affleck and Gone Girl? Never forget. That's right. But when they're like in the Sydney Harbor, and I don't remember if they're doing Titanic or they're doing something similar, but I was, yeah, on a boat.

1:42:28And I was like, okay, so like the big romantic set piece of a romantic comedy, no matter how bad it is. I'm like, if you went all the way to the Sydney Harbor and you tried to film something like, okay, I'm in, I'll enjoy it.

1:42:39Sean Fennessey:Yeah. This is a good reminder that taste is subjective. It's very bad. Okay. It's not good, but that scene, they try. You know, and they went to Australia. You can't take that away from them. 11 Spider-Man movies. Okay. Oh, shit. You said you rewatched a lot of them or parts of a lot of them? I watched parts of or all of every single one of them, except for Across the Spider-Verse. And we did show Into the Spider-Verse to my four-year-old last week. Did you? Yeah. Did that play? Sort of. He was like a little scared a couple of times. Okay. Which one? Which one? Into the Spider-Verse. Oh, I can see that.

1:43:13Sean Fennessey:Yeah. The second one, I've done both with Alice. The second one is, there's a lot of story and it's very confusing. I was confused by it when I saw it. The millions of Spider-Men and Spider-Women is a lot to take in for a little kid. That being said, that movie is fucking amazing to me. And this is a hard list to do because I love the Spider-Verse movies so much. To me, they are actually the thing that gave me the feeling of reading the Todd McFarlane Spider-Man comic books when I was 12. where I was like, good God, this is scratching something so specific about inexplicable, ineffable feelings that certain media can give you.

1:43:55Sean Fennessey:And I don't know that I have that relationship with any other Spider-Man movie except for Spider-Man 2, the Raimi Spider-Man movie. That is the one that I feel like is the very best of the live action movies. I do understand that that's a very common take. that that's but you know you thought that this most recent tom holland film was the least of the four you thought it was the best of the four yeah i'm probably somewhere in the middle i mean i feel like homecoming was really cool and that was like a great reinvention of spider-man i mean it's great and the michael the michael keaton when he opens the door it's it's perfect great moment you know we are we are coming to it much like emily wilson and christopher nolan from from different walks of experience yes where much of the text have we spent time and how much of the text do you need to see very specifically in in the movies i have never had a spider-man comic but i do have two little boys at home so when i watch tom holland as a teenager just being like happy-go-lucky and i would love to look like aunt may trying to protect him you know and so i just like i mean help me marissa tome so i just i don't have any preconceived interpretation of him the Spider-Man as a teenager makes the most sense to me.

1:45:08Just like it's the easiest on-ramp to a superhero because I'm not a man of a - The most accessible Spider-Man. Yeah, and the most accessible superhero because like, again, I don't wander, I don't walk around like feeling the burden of, you know, my greatness and my responsibility and my genius to people all the time. That's a man thing. So - I will quibble with that a little bit.

1:45:29Sean Fennessey:We can explore that in a future episode. Like, Batman, like, you know, I'm sorry that happened, but like, you know. His parents were murdered. I know, I've seen it 45 ,000 times. See, this is a legitimate criticism. We don't have to see them die again. And Spider-Man. That's an OG Jason Concepcion take. Right. That we never have to see that happen again in the movie. And that's really sad, but I, you know, and now he's interpreted, you know, he's made all the, he's inherited all the money in the world and has some gadgets. cool but I like Superman is just he feels like an outsider but also I don't know I don't relate to any of them I don't get it like I don't like must be hard to have all that power Spider-Man he's just a kid trying to figure it out it's cool I understand so that's yeah he likes girls but also you know he has some higher calling but like how much of the time is he going to spend on girls how much of the time is he going to spend on his higher calling you know relatable he got homework I couldn't play football then so I shouldn't do it now right he's got prom right and his girl's dad is the prom guy Keaton leans over the car with the gun and you're like yo that's a hell of a scene anyway it's just to say that that interpretation of Spider-Man speaks to me the most what happened to Laura Harrier good question I haven't seen her much lately.

1:47:01Oh, you know what? She was in Michael.

1:47:03Sean Fennessey:Who was she in Michael? Oh, yes. That's right. Oh, my gosh. Very important person in music history. An extremely important person in music history, television, film history. She was in the past. And all she gets to do in Michael is hand someone a card and then just like stand there. She was played by Vanessa Williams in the Jackson's An American Dream. Yes, that's right. Which is vastly superior. I've seen that to Michael yeah so like she got more to do then I think she maybe directly produced that one too there could be a whole movie about her absolutely her life is so interesting she's like a seminal figure yeah anyway to me the worst Spider-Man movie is The Amazing Spider-Man 2 I feel like it's not really arguable right it is very very unsuccessful I love Andrew Garfield as an actor I liked him in the first Amazing Spider-Man didn't love but I I mostly agree with what you're saying in terms of like they hit a different tone.

1:48:00Sean Fennessey:Just that one thing. That component. Yeah. The second movie is a fiasco. Completely agree. Totally torpedoed his run as Spider-Man. And frankly, Mark Webb's career. He has not been the same ever since. And was the catalyst for Sony getting into the deal with Disney and the MCU. That's exactly right. Because they had to produce another one. They didn't want to make a sequel. and the best way to do it was either to make a Sinister Six movie which no one was going to go see. I really wanted it though. It was supposed to be Drew Goddard who was supposed to make it and I really fucking wanted that movie.

1:48:36Like the Sinister Six movie which they didn't really want to do that and they got into the deal with the MCU.

1:48:41Sean Fennessey:It's so annoying though that we didn't get that movie but we did get three Venom movies Craven the Hunter and Morbius and Madam Web. Yeah. You know the Sinister Six? It's like the six main bad guys. I think you've told me about them before. Yeah. But I didn't commit it to memory. I did commit Madame Web and the Pepsi can to memory, though. So at least we got that. What's the second worst Spider-Man movie? This one was hard for me because it's either, and the animated movies are in this, right? They're way at the top. It's either Spider-Man 3 or The Amazing Spider-Man 1. I agree. I think it's between those two.

1:49:21Sean Fennessey:I think they're in 9 and 10 position which goes first so Spider-Man 3 is Thomas Hayden Church as the Sandman that's correct and amazing oh my gosh I forgot about that with the bleached blonde praying in church caught and it's when and Kirsten Dunn as MJ is like on Broadway very clearly not singing at all. That's right. That's okay. She has many other talents. I would say Mary Jane is misserved by Spider-Man 3. When I was re-watching Spider-Man 3, I was thinking about how at this point in Kirsten Dunst's life, she had already made Marie Antoinette and was then like back on stage pretending to sing in Broadway.

1:50:13Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I didn't make it. 20th anniversary this year. And then Amazing Spider-Man has the Branzino Oh Does it? The Branzino scene When they're going to dinner Yes of course It's a good scene

1:50:33Sean Fennessey:I do like that scene as well A lot of questions about Gwen Stacy's wardrobe choices At her very grown up internship Did they not have the fingertips and the skirts rule? Oh you're saying it was too revealing What Gwen was wearing? Not only is she wearing a short skirt which is fine. But then she's wearing knee-high boots. Is slut-shaming Gwen Stacy? I'm not slut-shaming. I'm saying that she is giving the tour for all the new interns. And she's wearing sock boots. No, like thigh-high socks on knee-high boots and a short skirt. I'm waiting to hear something bad. I would just like to say that I think that there are many settings in which to wear that and your job where you're the lead tour guide is probably not one of them.

1:51:25That's my tip.

1:51:26Sean Fennessey:Noted. I'll let Emma Stone know what you said about her. I think it's probably Spider-Man 3 and then The Amazing Spider-Man but it's a coin flip having just revisited Spider-Man 3. I'll probably go opposite but I couldn't hate it. I couldn't hate it. I don't know why. You know what? Come on. Tobey Maguire turns into Venom. That's fucking sick, man. kind of sort of does but not really Topher Grace turns into Tobey Maguire yes Tobey Maguire wears the black suit yeah of course I think it's probably I think it's probably reverse okay but I also think so you think that it's Amazing Spider-Man then Spider-Man 3 then Spider-Man 3 I'm fine with that I mean that's tough for Andrew Garfield another Leo do you remember his press conference when he was cast as Spider-Man and he talked about how important Spider-Man was to him it's the most eloquent an actor has ever been about being cast as a superhero.

1:52:19Sean Fennessey:He's so wonderful. Yeah. And he's great in the role. I just think that just, it's actually almost not a fair comparison because there's so many climactic things that happen in Spider-Man 3 and the movie is wonky and silly, but it's just, it's kind of riding the fumes of the first two. Okay, so that's fine. I don't really care. Okay. Okay. Eight movies. I feel like Far From Home is probably next. I agree. Mysterio. I love Gyllenhaal. It feels like just a little bit of a side quest movie. Now you're picking from only good movies now. I'm a little lower on Far From Home. Okay, cool. You're picking from movies now.

1:53:00Sean Fennessey:I'll say once we get to six is when I'm like, I pretty much like all these movies a lot. I was a little more charmed by Far From Home when I watched it this week than I was previously. and obviously I like Tom Holland but more than I you love Europe this is why you like this movie well they do they do Rialto Bridge I'm more of a academia but that's and I also thought the opener with you know they have like the high school TV network do like a farewell to farewell video for all of the snap individuals that opens it and it was really really funny but that's yeah so I was a little charmed but that's fine so the thing is it's clearly a Holland movie that has to go right here and I think the other ones you just can't possibly make a you can't possibly put them right there to me I think it's the least of the Holland movies but I like it I like it it's also the one tricky thing is this is where he and Zendaya really figure out Spider-Man and MJ because MJ is in Homecoming but she's not Laura and she's kind of and so she's just being very weird and funny in Far From Home and spatting off all her conspiracy theories and then figures out that he's Spider-Man.

1:54:26Sean Fennessey:Is there another movie you would put here instead of this movie? Well. Your interest in Far From Home fascinates me. Well, I just listen, I did my homework. I refreshed everything. I don't know if it's my favorite and I think of the Holland ones you know, I put it there but like I just prefer the Hollands to the Tobey Maguires. You know, and I know you can't it's so hard with Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 because they Spider-Man changed movies and it's Kiki and it's the upside down kiss so you can't put that lower the vibe of that movie at the time having so much fun just totally locked in perfect casting for Osborn, Herger and Goblin I think Spider-Man 2 is just a real comics person versus non-comics person what do you mean?

1:55:11I just like I trust you guys but I don't I don't get that at all I don't care about Dr. Octopus like I you know in the same way that you said when the big like the splash page in Brand New Day makes you come alive I was kind of like I spent the time being like who's who is Jon Bernthal supposed to be right now I just don't respond to it in the same way but that's

1:55:35Sean Fennessey:I think it's also to the to Van's point earlier like you're not a big horror movie person and it's a great horror movie It's a great Frankenstein werewolf movie where a guy just kind of is like transformed by his own creation into this demonic figure. And it becomes a very tragic story about Octavius in a way that is just like very, very good genre movie making. Did you guys – It's as much creature movie as it is superhero. Yeah. You guys have watched the movie, right? Yeah. The scene where he is being operated on and his tentacles come alive. Yes. and is like slaughtering the doctors. It's scary.

1:56:12Sean Fennessey:Yeah. That deepens the seriousness and the stakes every time Peter is on screen with him. It's good. There's good Peter and Mary Jane stuff in it too. Yeah. You know, where like they split up and she's going to get married to somebody else and I don't know. Spider-Man 2 is very high up there. We'll bargain. We're going to have to bargain. Okay. Is there another Holland going here? An eight? No, at seven. Oh, Brand New Day? But it's his favorite. So I don't really know what to do. That's interesting. Where do you think Brand New Day is going? I think Brand New Day is third. Well, hold on. Wow. If you're counting the animated movies, then no.

1:56:50We are counting the animated movies. When we did the animated movies, we didn't count the... When we did ours, we didn't count the animated movies. I think we should.

1:56:59Sean Fennessey:It's obviously not just Peter Parker, though Peter Parker is in these movies too. So Brand New Day is not as good as either one of the animated movies. I was actually less into... across the Spider-Verse than other people were. But Brand New Day is... Because it's going to do too much? A little bit. Yeah. It's very busy. Revisiting it, I was like, oh, this is really busy. But Brand New Day is not as good as either one of those movies. The animation style and the music and the scope of that movie, though, is so crazy. I just remember when all the Spider-Mans start glitching or whatever. I had no idea what was happening.

1:57:28I really enjoyed that. Respectfully. So then Seven is going to be... It looked cool.

1:57:33Sean Fennessey:Almost tough. It's probably between Homecoming and Brand New Day. I want a caveat Homecoming is so wonderful I want a caveat I like Homecoming a lot we're in pretty much really good movie zone here for my taste at least I think Homecoming is I think Brand New Day is better than better than the rest of these I would go Homecoming it's getting tough I would go Homecoming but I mean I'm a guest you would go Brand New Day yeah I think I would go Brand New Day too I'm outvoted just put a thing in there A parentheses Van disagrees. Okay. All right. We put that on the card, actually. Okay. Top six. Now you're in the end game.

1:58:21Sean Fennessey:Is it Spider-Man? Fuck. The original? Or Homecoming. Oh, it's... Homecoming. It's Homecoming. Then Spider-Man. And then Thunderdome. And then we have to figure out what we're doing. Okay. So, okay. Can you just put Amanda just sat here next to the title? No, then five is No Way Home, and then Thunderdome. Yeah, I'll put Homecoming there. Five, I'll put No Way Home. And then we're in - And then what's left? The two original live actions and the two animated ones. And now you're fucking - Much like the rest of this podcast, I'm just sitting here while you're talking. I gave you a lot of leeway on Nolan, so you're going to have to roll with me on Spider-Man.

1:59:02I truly don't care, so go ahead.

1:59:04Sean Fennessey:It's like just the Kumite. I think it's across Spider-Man into Spider-Man 2 across Spider-Man into Spider-Man 2 so this is something that people don't agree with me I have Spider-Man 1 and 2 is almost identical quality so I actually from a watching perspective slightly prefer Spider-Man 1 because of the Green Goblin stuff which I think is perfectly done however that's a personal preference And the reality is Spider-Man 2 is a higher filmmaking achievement. It is. It's a slightly better movie. I prefer Spider-Man 2 a little bit. The question would be, really, of that top two list, if we're being for real, is Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse actually better than Spider-Man 2?

1:59:57That's a pretty perfect movie. I agree with you.

2:00:01Sean Fennessey:I agree. To me, it's a five-star movie. like I have said this I said it when we were doing the show that movie blew my mind y 'all going viral if y 'all put it number one but I think I think I think there's a if we just being for real if we're taking our personal preference out of it like I already have you could make an argument that Into the Spider-Verse is slightly better than Spider-Man 2 I've already said that this Spider-Man 2 is a thing that just doesn't speak to me in the same way that it speaks to you guys and Spider-Verse does more so but I also opted out of this conversation a long time ago.

2:00:37What does the letterbox have? What do the people say?

2:00:40Sean Fennessey:Actually, I'd be curious to know what the average rating is for those movies. It's 4.4. Into is a 4.4, which is pretty much as high as you see a movie go. And then Beyond. I look at Peter Renz. Beyond, Beyond, Beyond. The live-action Spider-Man 1 and 2 are both a 3.9. Beyond and across are both 4.4. It's nuts. If you just help, I mean, you know. the Spider-Verse movies we know yeah yeah yeah move me let me ask you this they move me it wasn't how much does culture fit into this because from that perspective Spider-Man 1 and 2 are some of the most consequential you said this yes they're some of the most consequential movies in modern film history I wrote in my newsletter today that Spider-Man the first Spider-Man film it arrives in 0-2 in the year when everything dramatically changes when you get Harry Potter 2, Lord of the Rings 2, Men in Black 2, and then you get a ton of my big fat Greek wedding and signs and 8 Mile and you go down the list of like all the huge movies that came out in 2002, but Spider-Man specifically, which was the highest grossing movie of that year, a movie set in New York City after 9-11, that movie, and the flag is billowing behind Peter in the movie when he's racing to save Mary Jane.

2:02:00Sean Fennessey:That movie shifted honestly for the worse in my opinion what hollywood thought its mission was that doesn't change how much i liked that movie i loved that movie when it came out and i still do and i was a kid who loved sam raimi movies when i was a teenager arms race it really did and the globalized box office really kind of kicks off at this time where we we see there's more money to be made in europe and asia from our films maybe even then in america but that's not i can't hold that against it either when we're having a conversation like this. What do you mean? What against it? The fact that I think it kind of tipped things in a negative direction for Hollywood for 20 years.

2:02:34I mean, yeah, because, you know,

2:02:36Sean Fennessey:it just became Franchise City. The Marvel guys go, okay, well, we gotta go get a$500 million loan from Merrill Lynch and do our thing. That's right. The characters we have left. Me too. They look at that and they go, that's money that we are not making. All right. I mean, I'm good with that. There's gonna be controversy, but I'm good with that. So Spider-Man 2 is number one. You really could swap those. You want the internet going crazy because we put into the Spider-Verse at one? I just think that y 'all probably going to get love. I'm not going to see any of it because I'm going to be on vacation.

2:03:13Sean Fennessey:Me too. This is my last act before going on vacation. I don't accept any of the clabs when there are superheroes involved. Don't come into the meme posts with your ideas. The meme posts are our space, okay? Keep your bot army stuff on topic. Okay, I am the moderator, and I say that's our space. I just, you know, like, someone stumbles across some random algorithm, and suddenly I got to hear their feelings about, like, who Ghost Rider is. I don't care. You know, this is my space. Yeah, I get it. I heard, I say something about Ghost Rider. I heard that this idea is, like, a lot of it, I mean, they talked about this, a lot of it's coming from Ryan.

2:03:55Sean Fennessey:From Gosling, yeah. And I heard that the idea is phenomenal. And people are being tight-lipped about it. Not really talking about it. But I heard that the idea itself is pretty amazing. Why don't you just share what it is? They didn't tell me. Oh. Okay. Well, that's a great way to get people talking about it. Hey, I heard this idea is phenomenal. What's the idea? No one's allowed to say. You know that's how they talk. Yeah, sure. You know that's how they talk. You know that's how they talk. Like, this is getting made because this is like the greatest thing we've ever heard. Okay, tell me a little bit about it.

2:04:24Can't do that. Right.

2:04:26Sean Fennessey:and I'm as susceptible to that as anybody but like it is still Ghost Rider he's a guy who dies and turns into a skeleton who bursts into flames like how cool could it be we know what Ghost Rider is I repeat the shit but I've been burned like five times so like they told me the same thing about the Flash is Sean Levy still directing it? that's what I say no more okay whoa okay free guy that's good I mean I'll say this just for I'm just I just strong armed at the end here this is I was like this is what I want to happen for consistency's sake you probably gotta put Spider-Man 2 number one but I'm being for real just on quality of movie I mean I left Into the Spider-Verse blown away almost a time you know what else I like about Into the Spider-Verse what is it made me think about well of course I love the representation I love Miles but I actually was like Chris Pine could have been an interesting Spider-Man casting him as the Peter Parker who is kind of vanquished at the beginning of it.

2:05:26There's a lot of little choices in the movie that kind of gratify your old school Spider-Man

2:05:30Sean Fennessey:fans and also make it a very modern telling, which is really hard for comic book movies to do as we talked about with this brand new day conversation. Epic episode of this show. Incredibly deep. Lots of personal lore shared. Okay. Lots of deep discussion of subjectivity as a driving point for taste amongst podcasters. Not just podcasters. I'll just be honest. Pretty much everything. All humans. I'll be honest. Yeah. I'm not going to go over well when I say this. If I wanted to, just based on the numbers that I've put up in terms of what we talk about when I'm on here. Oh, wow. Third chair. If I wanted to.

2:06:05You think you want a third chair? If I wanted to. If I wanted to, obviously, I don't have the stature of a CR. I don't have the bona fides of a Tracy. Okay? But if I wanted to, just based off what happens when I'm here. I could make the argument that I'm third chair okay it's like CR has his own lore here at the ringer nobody fucking with that it's really you know starting to come like come for the fucking you're like Lancelot almost it's like a it's a Lancelot King Arthur thing starting to happen at this motherfucker

2:06:46Sean Fennessey:do you think that Bill hears the footsteps I think he definitely hears them you know what I mean that's why he tried to throw a little assist just to see what he was capable of. You know what I mean? You think you check the numbers? How well did that CR episode do? I think that's one of those ones where you bring somebody in and just go, okay, let's see if you can sit in the big seat just to test the check, to check your temperature a little bit. So I'm not about to act like I'm on the, and then Tracy brings, you know, it's like a playwright guy, you know, comes from a royal family of Hollywood and his wife is beautiful and talented and he's great and all of that stuff.

2:07:22but if we're just talking about quality of what happens on the show and where we go I don't know man

2:07:29Sean Fennessey:I respect you I respect you staking that claim I could see a world where I'm in there I'm kind of like the Miles Morales of the third chair argument I got my own universe sure yeah just saying we got busy today we did the rankings I'm going to do very quickly as a recap I closed my tab and have no idea what they are number 11 is the amazing Spider-Man 2. Number 10 is The Amazing Spider-Man R.I.P. Garfield. Number 9 is Spider-Man 3. Number 8 is Spider-Man Far From Home. Number 7 is Spider-Man Brand New Day Van disagrees. Number 6 is Spider-Man Homecoming. Number 5 is Spider-Man No Way Home. Number 4 is Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse.

2:08:07Sean Fennessey:Number 3 is Spider-Man. Number 2 is Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse. And number 1 is Spider-Man 2. Oh, you didn't switch it at the end? I didn't. No. Okay. I have to stand on business when it comes to Spider-Man. Okay. Thank you. third chair in waiting third chair in waiting Higher Learning The Ringerverse Tailgate yeah Rewatchables what else is in the mix just stuff lots of great stuff coming out lots of great stuff okay thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode thank you to Lucas Cavanaugh thank you to Amanda Dobbins I'm going on vacation imminently yeah are you serious yeah all the content pushes over so you got a little low Yes.

2:08:50Sean Fennessey:So actually I was more than happy to go two and a half with you guys because I won't be doing this for a while. We do have an episode coming early next week, which is our Canadian movie draft, which we taped live in Toronto a couple weeks ago. That's right. You'll be able to hear that. And then Amanda's in the big seat. I am. Can I tell everyone? If you'd like to. Yeah. We're going to have a special guest, Juliette Lippman, on the show. Oh, yeah. We're doing one night only. While you guys were doing that, honestly, Juliette Littman was texting me about a specific location used in the film One Night Only, which we will discuss along with the 21st century romantic comedy canon.

2:09:30Get ready.

2:09:32Sean Fennessey:I'm excited. I'm excited for you. I'm excited for Juliette. Yeah. I'm excited for the listeners at home. I'll see you guys on the other side of my vacation.

2:09:59Sean Fennessey:Turn it up! Storm has zero sugar and 200 milligrams of caffeine, so you can turn that workout up a notch. Good energy in, good energy out. Energy for life.