‘Springsteen: Deliver Me From Nowhere’ and the ‘Music Biopic’ Mount Rushmore

31:26I'm cool. I mean, same. Manic Pixie. New Jersey girl. Are you a Chuck Berry fan? Yeah, of course. Great. bedrock of rock and roll. Movie's not successful. Jeremy Strong, you know, one of my guys, I'll support him to the death, didn't think this was his best work. I thought it was like very self-conscious in a way that it was a little distracting and I know that that's kind of his bag but it needs to have like some flair to it. It needs to be Roy Cohn. It needs to be a character with some absurdity. John Landau is by all accounts like a very warm, good guy and that's not the most dramatic thing.

32:03There's no warmth in this movie. charisma there's except for like mark maron sitting there yeah and even he is not allowed to speak but i i think you know to yassi's point it's that's flat but also is not in line keeping with like the bruce springsteen we know who even if he you know he was in a rough patch in his life but like that is an international you know icon yes a charisma machine exactly like he you could give us something. Yeah. I think, I just talk about the Scott Cooper. Like, this is like five movies in a row that are just deathly self-serious and dull and overwritten. And this is just kind of the mode he's in.

32:40Like, there's been a couple things I've enjoyed that he's done, but it's been a very long time. And Chris is bursting at the seams right now. I just, I like. He wants to defend Out of the Furnace. I like Out of the Furnace. He wants to defend Black Mask. He wants to defend Antlers. He wants to defend Hostiles. You know. Antlers has kind of some cool scenes. You don't think so? No, I don't think it's successful, no. And it's fascinating that Bruce Springsteen trusted him to tell this story. Did Bruce Springsteen watch Antlers? What happened here? No, I think he watched Out of the Furnace, though, which is essentially a Bruce Springsteen song.

33:10I heard an interview with him where he was talking about how it got made, and he said, Warren Zanes. By the way, we didn't even mention Warren Zanes, also a musician that was in the Delphiagos. He's very cool. But him and Scott Cooper came to ask about it, and Bruce Springsteen was like, I'm 76, I don't care what happens. That was basically what he said, and I was like, okay, well then that makes more sense. I guess I'm wrong about like Springsteen's influence over like the way No, he is promoting it. He was on set almost all the time. He is promoting it for sure. I think he was, I think he's trying to thread that needle of like I want him as an artist to be able to do what he wants to do because that's what the movie is about.

33:44So it would be contradictory to try to control that but we're Springsteen as a business at this point. He's got a really, Springsteen had a really cool quote around the time of the making of Nebraska or maybe it was in retrospect. looking back on the Making of Nebraska, but he was just like, I felt like I was losing touch with the kind of people that I used to write about and that my songs were about, you know, and that it was like a moment where obviously he's about to become unable to go to diners and unable to go to the library and look at a lot of microfiche and not even just about - That's just research.

34:17That's honestly something I love to do. And I miss that in my life deeply. Not even just about him feeling like, oh, I'm too famous now. It was literally like, I have left the atmosphere that I lived in. Yeah. You know? And that wasn't even really. There are suggestions of it in some of the diners. You can see him looking at guys eating their breakfast or whatever. And you can kind of feel him. His alienation. His alienation. I'm not going to be that guy, probably. You can't eat breakfast anymore? I can't. Yeah. so the movie is tracking to make between 10 and 12 million dollars there's also is that a lot i just i wanted to know if you clocked this in a diner yeah there's one point where jeremy strong and jeremy allen white are in the diner and they seem to be either have had separately or splitting a tuna melt and eggs over easy and onion rings and i just want to say i don't approve of that that's a great order what do you mean what's wrong with that tuna melt and onion rings and And eggs over easy?

35:18You're in a diner. You've got to get eggs. Well, you're splitting the eggs. Oh, no. You don't have to get eggs. You can if you want. You and Andy need to go to Jupiter and have your diner orders. No, we need to go to the east coast of the United States of America where diner culture thrives. So you're ordering a tuna melt and eggs? I'm with Sean. In a splitting scenario, sure. And you do eat tuna melts. I love tuna melts. Yeah, same. Even though you're against all of the ingredients individually. Together, their powers come by. I eat tuna? I'm a tuna. Yeah. And I eat bread. Right, but everything that goes into the tuna salad.

35:51Whatever. And cheese. I love cheese. Real up and down relationship with. I love it. It doesn't love me. But I'm doing my best to survive it. I like that order. And I support those two. Okay. And he ended up getting mozzarella sticks and black coffee. I'm just never going to get it. That also sounds great. I think that's a great order. That sounds awesome. I'm with you on that. That's really gross. You guys are real diner fascists over here. The whole point of a diner is like the world is your oyster. Get whatever you want. Precisely. Mix it up. it just doesn't go together you know yeah box office for this movie you kind of shouldn't make this movie unless it's going to make money and it seems like they've made a movie that isn't going to make a lot of money which then makes this like a very weird curio this is one of the few subgenres of movies that we've talked about in the last 10 years that can kind of break through to adult audiences and reach them because they want to go and hear Queen songs really loud or Ray Charles songs or Aretha Franklin songs or Bob Dylan songs as we saw last year.

36:46And it seems like this is not going to do very well. It seems like Chainsaw Man is going to take a chainsaw to this movie at the box office this weekend. Anybody seen Chainsaw Man? Not yet. You know. I tell you what, I'm seeing it. We got to wrap up. I'm seeing it in theaters. I'm telling you right now. I'm seeing Chainsaw Man I mean, it has tickets after this so I have a hard out. Do you have a mastermind Chainsaw Man doubleheader? Those are two different energies but they could go great together just like eggs in a tuna melt. You never know. It raises the question of like, why? Like, why was this movie made?

37:17Why is it going to do well? Is it because it has bad reviews? I don't think the word of mouth will be great on this movie. The word of mouth is not going to be good. The review scores have come way down since the festival premiere. But I think it's also like, it's about Nebraska. It's not about Born in the USA. Right, right. You know, it's not this exaltation of artistic achievement, which is the opposite, obviously, of A Complete Unknown, which is about this transformative moment full of songs that people who are Bob Dylan fans know no one can sing along to. I think always of that weird scene in that movie when it seems like there's going to be nuclear disaster and Elle Fanning like races downstairs around the corner to see him playing Masters of War in a coffee shop at like 10 p.m.

37:59at night and I'm like, this is the most bullshitty scene I've ever seen in a movie in my life. But it was awesome. It was fucking awesome because I was like, you know, Masters of War, that's a jam. It's a really good song and this movie has none of that. But even for Nebraska head, CR, tell me if I'm wrong, I'm a Nebraska head there wasn't enough Nebraska songs I was like they even they cucked out when they're pressing the record and they're like we're gonna play I'm on fire I'm just like listen I love I'm on fire that's one of the greatest songs ever written but that's not on that record you're making you're literally pressing Nebraska just play they wanted to remind you that watching this film was like taking a knife baby Edgian doll six inch ballet through the middle of my skull yeah I mean the why of you like free spacing of course I do I'm an American you know the why of like why it's all tied up in the same thing why did you make this movie like this like the fact that this movie is as befuddling to us in a sitting dodge watching an audience set and that then also you know applies to its box office it's just I don't why well one reason to make this movie is Academy Awards right so when I came out of that screening I tell you right everybody was like well that is a best actor nomination locked and loaded right there for you.

39:13And now with some distance, you have a very crowded best actor race this year. We have two obvious ones. We have Bob Dylan himself, Timothee Chalamet, and Marty Supreme, and we have Leonardo DiCaprio in one battle after another. We've also got... Michael B. Jordan in Sinners. Michael B. Jordan in Sinners. Seems pretty close to a lock. I agree. We've got Dwayne Johnson potentially in The Smashing Machine, though that movie has not done as well. Austin Abrams in Weapons. I don't think he'll be campaigning. Okay. there are a few other significant contenders Jesse Plemons Jesse Plemons Jesse Plemons from Begonia is on that list look at that Venice jumping out that's right I saw that well done I hope Wagner Mora for The Secret Agent is nominated he's amazing in that movie hopefully we'll talk about that soon on the show I I don't know if I see it happening I don't either at this point I think if this movie kind of comes and goes and isn't any doesn't have any traction at the box office it'll be really hard for them to make the argument It does remind me a little bit of the way that so many best actress nominations tend to happen, where that is the only thing that is recognized in a movie.

40:17Because this is not probably going to get nominations in other categories. In some ways, it's kind of impressive because obviously he went through a lot of training, I would imagine, to get as good as he did at Qatar and be as good as he did at sounding just like Bruce Springsteen. And if I were him, I'd be like, Scott Cooper, let me play a couple more songs, man. like yeah where is the companion album of Jeremy Allen White singing all the Bruce Springsteen songs like a complete unknown did that actually worked I listen to that there actually is tonight they're releasing the expanded Nebraska yes with the multiple versions the electric versions right yeah the electric versions that he was not satisfied with so how do you guys feel about that that's deep Bruce lore I'm so pumped okay you're pumped there you go for the expanded Nebraska yeah yes this is like a legendary when will they give it to us never appeared on bootlegs right yes that's cool you don't care it's fine I'll listen to it okay I'm not as excited as you are sorry I'm sorry you're not sorry for loving Bruce Brayston I know you don't care I also think you're not a real bonus features kind of person no I think that you should work really hard finish your product fully and release it and don't make me sit through the extras or the redos you know okay finish it before you ask me for my attention somebody should let me at least God know that that's where Amanda stands on his work.

41:37I mean, I know. And I, you know, the four hours. Have you and Tracy watched Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut together yet? Not together, no. Yeah, you could set up a little Zoom. Yeah, you could do another FaceTime. Sell tickets to that. I would cover. I gotta find out if Hitmaker watched it yet because he was like, damn, you really did. Oh, right. He told me he did. Did he? Like, that shit sucked. Yeah, he said, CR is a cuck. I was like, well, it's your opinion, man. Let's talk briefly about music biopics. Yassi opened by proclaiming that they could be good. They aren't good very often. Well, people should take that as a challenge.

42:11But I still sometimes enjoy them. I know you do, because you love to hear music loud and make it fun, right? Yeah, and I do. It is always the moment that is in some ways the cringiest moment until you have seen Delivery from Nowhere and you understand that it's actually someone writing in a notebook. Double album, question mark? Double Y, question mark. but when they're sitting there in the studio or somewhere and they're like noodling on a guitar and they're, and you're like, Oh my God, they're, you know, they're right in respect. They're right in whatever. That's highway 61. I just, I get, you know, Oh my God.

42:43He just like, someone just sat down at the organ, you know? And every single time that works. And even in this movie, it's the real highlight. We're just like, Oh my God, he's playing board in the USA. When they have the Max Weinberg start the drum beat. I was like, yeah. Yo. I don't really hold the same opinion on that. but that's not usually how it works. I didn't feel that way. What? What isn't how it works? That they just start playing it in the studio that way? So you don't think that Bob Dylan wrote Blowing in the Wind. Yeah, he did at the vanity table in the hotel room. After blowing out Joan Baez's back.

43:18Is that what you're going to say? I'm just going to be a little more delicate. Okay. Just sit right on the table. And I guess, according to that scene, he had already written it and she found the lyrics on the coffee table. Yeah. It was originally called Blown Out Her Back and she was like, I got a metaphor size this movie a little bit. Men are very creative, post-coital, able to do a lot of things, write a lot of beautiful music or do anything. But yeah, you know, and then they play and you're like, it's this song. I love this song. I don't know. Sometimes I like songs. One thing I'll say is we're fucked because they're just going to keep making movies about artists that are more and more important to us because we're getting old.

43:58Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's do the good first and then we can talk about the bad. So the good. If you had to choose one, Yossi, if the four of us were going to build the Mount Rushmore, we're going to choose the most essential music biopic or the best expression of a music biopic ever. Well, you already know what I'm going to say. We'll just say. 24-hour party people, which I know it's cheating a little because it's like kind of not exactly a music biopic because it's about a label, a head, and a scene. But I think it counts. Okay. Obviously, you can't pick a doc, right? No. Obviously. So biopic, it's about real people as opposed to fake people.

44:43She's thinking the thing I'm thinking. It has to be about real people, yes. Okay. You're thinking spinal tap. No. Well, this isn't my pick, but since you just said some rude things about Joan Baez in A Complete Unknown I do have to say that Monica Barbaro was amazing I did not think it was actually her singing as Joan Baez and then she was good I mean Sissy Spacek right? Yeah that was going to be my pick actually we should have talked about that Coal Miner's Daughter is definitely the it's kind of the template setter and maybe ruined them a little bit but it's I rewatched most of it last night and it's still weird and unexpected directed by Michael Apted and And crucially, like, there is conflict in her life story, and it just shows it in real time.

45:29Not a lot of bells and whistles. The last 30 minutes is just now she's famous and performing, and that's complicated, too. But she's amazing in it. Yeah. I mean, part of that is, I think, because Michael Afted is a documentarian. Yeah. So, like, he's well-suited to trying to portray something real, right? And that's kind of the trick of these movies. Deliver Me From Nowhere just feels really artificial. It would have been an incredible documentary, actually, instead of a movie. Well, sure. There are documentaries, I think, about the three previous Bruce Springsteen movies. That's the thing. It almost felt like his team was like, we've got to do a different version if we're going to do another album.

46:08Although I probably know, in retrospect, would just do a long-form Nebraska doc. I think it would be great. I would probably say honestly I would say a complete unknown I think that's the one I had the most fun watching love that music I thought he did a great job I thought it depicted the fantasy version of that era in a pretty enlivening way I did want to ask you gut check vibe check time after seeing Deliver Me From Nowhere how are you feeling about four Beatles movies incoming? oh boy because that could go I mean, so... Real good. So they cast Saoirse Ronan as Linda McCartney, right? We love her.

46:49And then... The word is James Norton is going to play Brian Epstein. Right, yeah. And then have... It's good casting. And then... Paul Meskel is Paul. Right. Harris Dickinson is John. Yeah. Joseph Quinn is George. Joseph Quinn is George. Right. And Barry Keoghan is Ringo. Yes. You know. Beautiful casting. Pretty good casting. Beautiful casting. We love all our boyfriends. Four separate films about four separate phases of Beatles life, all four directed by Sam Mendes. A traditionally undocumented group. Right. We know nothing about them, actually. And by a director whose last films have really spoken to me on an emotional and aesthetic level.

47:29Yeah. Has your Empire of Light 4K with the commentary been released yet? No, but I do. With the bonus feature. I did once again find that screener DVD that you let me, like in the player. Hard to believe I forgot about that. do you want it back no thanks Sean what's yours I my pick would probably be I had been thinking Coal Miner's Daughter because I think it's the one that sort of like sets it and it's a little hard to surpass it because Sissy's Basic's so good probably Love and Mercy the Brian Wilson film which is a really good movie and I think does a good job of kind of giving you both it gives you the making of pet sounds in a way that feels like very satisfying to what you're describing where they're in the room figuring out good vibrations but then also it shows you Wilson at a different stage of his life two different performances two actors I really like in Cusack and Paul Dano and it's just like it's a movie you could never predict where it's going whereas I feel like a lot of these movies you know exactly what the arc is going to be and so it's really hard to get to the bar of thrilling you with the way that it's done but you know I think if Joe and Jill Popcorn were making this list like it would be very different you know it would be like straight out of Compton It would be Ray.

48:42It would be Walk the Line. It would be Rocketman. How do you feel about those kinds? I really don't like them. You don't like it when they're like, it's this person, but it's not this person. Like Velvet Goldmine? Velvet Goldmine. Oh, those. Yeah, that's what I... I mean, it probably depends on the movie, honestly. I don't have anything against them. I feel like Velvet Goldmine was really, really good. It is. It's so hard to imagine because, you know, the intention of the movie when Haynes started it was just to make Bowie and Iggy and just do... you know T-Rex like just to represent all of those people there's something interesting in him having to change it and it makes for a fun like oh it's kind of guessing game quality to it it's always gives him a lot more creative freedom I mean I think that it's less hitting you over the head which is I think one of the worst feelings when I watch these movies the thing I feel is like oh you think I'm so stupid you think I'm an idiot yeah I think we're at a disadvantage when watching them because we know a lot about these worlds.

49:42You know, we spend a lot of time, you know, you haven't spent as much time in the music criticism gold mines. I live among you and around you at all times. I didn't know that much about Nebraska. I learned it all after the fact. That's why when I was watching it, I was like, who is this for? Is this for someone who knows everything about it or nothing about it? Because you got to pick one. I feel like I was like, you just went down the middle. I was like in the 70th percentile of knowing about Nebraska. I think it misses for everybody. And you still didn't know who that guy was. I didn't. I didn't know who his driver was.

50:10Okay, so what's your next Nebraska? What's the one music biopic that you're like, this shall not pass? I don't want to ever see a movie about The Clash. Oh, interesting. I don't want to see... Because that also, like Westway to the World and a lot of the docs about The Clash are incredible. I think The Clash have these really amazing, distinctive eras with a lot of drama to them. They would probably work as movies, but I don't have a ton of confidence that it wouldn't be like, this is about when they played Shea Stadium. Should I stay or should I go? let me ask you a related question when I get the funding to make my slits biopic am I allowed to have that as tertiary character yes that's the way to do it we should do more things like that thank you yes you guys bang my line I'm ready to make this film yeah who do you think was listening or watching that Jerry Bruckheimer I'm part of I was like who is this dazzling fawn in a dinosaur junior show using this beautiful podcast as a launching pad for my illustrious career.

51:11I know you don't support female directors famous things. How dare you? I just watched a film that I worked on that was made by a female filmmaker 20 hours ago. I know that you support all female directors except me. There's a female director on this episode today. And I don't know what your problem is, but it's going to be really good. What about you? You got the Replacements movie maybe coming? Yeah, I mean, that inspired this exercise, which I am genuinely concerned about. I think, you know, it is based on Trouble Boy is the great, great, great Bob Mayer book. Fantastic, fantastic book. That's an amazing book.

51:44The Replacement is one of my favorite bands, one of our favorite bands, one of your favorite bands. But Finn Wolfhard is adapting that film with his dad. Right. And that's... Which one is that? The Stranger Things. Oh, no. He is a musician. I'm trying to be hopeful and positive. Finn Wolfhard is not giving the mats at all. I know. Like, at all. I know. That's the other problem. That's one, that's like, that kind of sent a chill down my spine when I saw that headline. It's my favorite band. I'm feeling, I think they should cast me in it, number one. Okay. And then hire me as a consultant. I know probably more about the replacements than almost anyone on Earth.

52:23Well, Finn Wolfhard will put you to the test. So that is happening. That's already agreed. To me, it's Beastie Boys. I feel like Beastie Boys, they should not do that. There will be a lot of temptation to do that. Those are three great star parts, three really charismatic guys, you know, our like American version of the Beatles nightmare to me is like three Beastie Boys movies yeah that would be so awful you know three twenty somethings and then Money Mark is the fourth one yeah that's just what if Spike Jones was directing it well now if if you told me that there was like a form breaking version of the movie or more of a 24 hour party people I would certainly entertain that if it was like Def Jam in 1987 that would be exciting right but anything that's like here are the trials and travails of these three guys yeah I mean I worship them.

53:07It's not about them. It's about what it would do to my feelings about them. So that would be my choice. Do you have one? Yeah, but it's not out of personal protectiveness. It's out of like, I don't think that I or we collectively as a society can live through a Taylor Swift biopic. Yeah. Like we straight up, we just like, we cannot, we cannot do it. Would she cast herself as Taylor Swift? I was going to say, I feel like we are living through a Taylor Swift biopic. I like the new album because I don't really listen to the words and I've been there through a lot with her. We just, like, can you imagine?

53:40We cannot do it. In this case, would it be her as herself? I mean, that could be tough. Or imagine her casting someone, you know, as her and then directing it. But who is Sabrina Carpenter is Taylor Swift. I mean, there we go. Okay. None of them would be good. What's yours? That's a really good pick, though. Thank you. Ernest is going back to camp. I believe that you can make a beautiful and good and interesting version of any music biopic. I don't know that they will. There's not a single artist. Kurt Cobain leaving alone. Don't make Kurt Cobain. Leave Kurt Cobain alone. I think they probably will make that film.

54:21And they already did make kind of. Gus Van Sant made that pretty difficult film. Last Days. That's right. I saw it. That was the kid from Boardwalk Empire? Yeah. Michael Pitt. Michael Pitt. can we just have a sidebar quickly this came up in the office yesterday Nirvana in 2025 now I see a lot of teenagers wearing in utero t-shirts I was going to say I see a lot of 5 year olds wearing so that's happened right and that happens every generation that happens too I got a little kid I'm not going to force Nirvana on her but if she liked Nirvana I'd be pretty excited she has a PJ Harvey shirt she definitely has not heard dry yet but she will one day Sure will.

55:04She'll know all about it. What do you think Nirvana means to America right now? Why do you sound like Charlie Rose? Oh, great. Are you running for office? It's really hard. This is funny that you asked me this because, like, a couple of months ago, I went on a British podcast with Miranda Sawyer, the great, about the 90s, and I talked about Nirvana, and I, like, the clip they chose is about me saying, I guess mistakenly, like, OK Boomer 6 '7 vibes. Sorry to bring up 6 '7, Jack. Oh my God, that's a whole other podcast. But I was like, oh, I feel like Nirvana is sort of frozen in the amber of coolness.

55:40I feel like because that was one of the last prominent subcultures, it's still being referred. Like grunge is still a reference to things that are cool today. But I was, the comments came for me. They were like, okay, ma, you know? Like, of course, like, what's up, Bea Arthur? people think about the beat i mean i was like oh my lord am i old and out of touch i mean people were saying that that that it wasn't that it's not kind of saying like you would think that because that was your cool music and maybe that's totally true because i i have no way of living outside of myself you know so maybe they're not i don't know they are because they aren't still around.

56:25you know like it's just it's just handed down they are not they didn't evolve into like Pearl Jam or doing jam band you know or they're not like at the Rose Bowl with all of the old people is Oasis uncool to young people by the way they should not we have the documentary they should not do the Oasis Oasis one either even though it seems like those guys would take some checks the rich text though you know that relationship yeah that would be a comedy a buddy comedy you like Nirvana I do I mean I think I do like Nirvana I also like plenty of contemporary bands who are heavily influenced by Navrana.

56:58So I think whether or not Yassi is washed or not is immaterial. Like there are a lot of bands that do like, and you're not washed. I have always wanted to do a pod at the ringer called Am I Washed? Where just like every, each episode is a different staffer and then they're being like drilled by a, you know, 22 year old staffer with like all the references in the world. Should we get that show going? What do you think? I think so, but I think the 22 year olds would just be like, no, and like looking at their phone. Wow, shots fired. Do you think the Nirvana biopic, though, would be like more of an event culturally than this Bruce Springsteen one, for example?

57:32I think that would be a real— It would be a very hot button. It would be like, what are you going to do about the events there? Yeah. I just think if you were like, we're making this an epic tragedy, you could. You know, about a person just unable to control the spiral of his life. How interesting would it be if they made it only about a different part of his life? This is what I'm asking. Please just try to think a little outside the box. Yeah, if you want to make a$25 million version of that, and make it about the making of bleach, that's interesting. But about a different person, and it was called Back to Black, starring Marissa Bella as Amy Winehouse.

58:05Hard refused to see that. It was genuinely offensive. And the way they ended it, which was with upbeat tears dry on her own, and then some block text. Was it like an end title? about, yeah, and then she died, essentially. That's literally how they did it. It was horrifying. It was very unsuccessful. It's all just like late capitalism where it's like, it's just a cash grab. And so they're not doing the art properly because they have to make the most money possible. And that's just, then it suffers. Yeah, but this - It's not going to be a classic. It's not going to go down. Delivery from nowhere, they did not make choices based on money.

58:44They didn't. I agree, which is interesting. They made choices based on throwing a dart at a wall. No. It was very intentional. It just was the wrong intention or the misbegotten intention. Anyway, it's not a very pleasant place to end this conversation, but this wasn't the most pleasant viewing experience as a movie. I still like Bruce Springsteen, though. We love Bruce Springsteen. He's the best. And I still believe that music biopics can be good. The best? He's like the best. You know, he's like the boss. Yeah. He is the boss. Maybe he's not the best. Okay. I recently told this on another podcast that has not come out yet, but I'm just going to share it right here.

59:22So my dad does not like Bruce Springsteen. Surprising. I'm from New York, not New Jersey. And my dad, one of the primary reasons that he doesn't like him is because he's the boss. And my dad would literally say when I was a kid, he's not the boss, I'm the boss. Which is one of the most dad things that can possibly be uttered. And his kids would laugh in his face when he would say this. But I definitely grew up not hating Bruce Springsteen, but just not being in like the church. You know, I think for some people when you grow up, you're in the, you have the halo of like, this is one of the signature emotional songwriters of the era.

59:59And I didn't have that. So I didn't even have that, that portal to this. I tried to end this on a, on a like a positive note, but you brought it back down. Sorry. Bruce says he's not as lost. One of the Beatles movies coming out, 2027 or 2028? Are the Beatles movies in 2027 or 2028? You were like, I have to keep podcasting through this. Can I give a quick shout out to my cousin Laila's best friend Coleman who loves this podcast and recently asked if she was related to me because you say my first and last name on here all the time. I just want to say to him hi. Coleman? That's right. Yeah. Can you guys say hi to Coleman?

1:00:31Hi Coleman. Great stuff man. Yeah. That's a high note babe. That's how we end on a high note. Fan service. Thank you Yassi. Thank you CR. Thank you boss. Yeah. You did it sir. Thank you dad.

1:00:48It's just us now. Hello. We can say what we really think about delivering me from nowhere, which is the best movie of the year. God. Let's talk briefly about If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You, which is the new A24 movie that is expanding over the next couple of weeks. Mary Bronstein's on the show. She wrote and directed this movie. She hasn't made a movie in 17 years. She made a movie called Yeast in the kind of high times of the mumblecore New York era. And she's been working on this movie for some time. based on very specific personal experience of raising her daughter who was struggling with a physical ailment and she had to travel across the country and take care of her by herself because her partner was not available to her.

1:01:33And it's extremely intimate, harrowingly intimate. Quite literally, much of it is filmed in tight close-up around Rose Byrne, who plays the mother, who's the star of the film's face. it's just following her so you know this is a podcast that supports mothers sure yeah we thank you in motherhood yeah thanks so much thank you every day for it i i responded yeah very intensely to this movie but i i was very curious what you thought about it yeah no i so as i wrote in the doc i i felt like i was gonna throw up throughout this movie which is said as a compliment like complimentary yeah uh no i thought this was like astonishingly good and an incredible act of of like of writing and filmmaking in a very like personally observed way that does speech speak to a larger experience in the world aka being a mother like i i did feel like i was going to throw up though it wasn't the most fun i've had at the movies all year yes um but an amazing performance, amazing writing.

1:02:37Um, I, I did think that the closeup and the claustrophobic decision, um, making in the, in the, in the, in the cinematography was smart and added to, and there, there's also one, uh, decision they make and, um, how they portray the kid that I thought was absolutely wonderful. Um, so yeah, amazing movie. We are going to have like a mom and dad summit at the end of the year. Yeah. I said to you that I think the two themes of movies, some of the best movies of the year, some of which we haven't even had a chance to talk about yet, is that fathers are trying very hard to care for their daughters and they're struggling deeply with that.

1:03:21Sure. But also they've realized that it's a beautiful thing. Fatherhood is beautiful and emotionally rewarding. It can be. It can also reveal the male flaw. Sure. The kind of primal male flaw. But it's worth it. But it's worth it. I agree. You guys are going through it. I saw One Battle After Another for the fifth time last night with some colleagues and it was probably my most emotional screening yet. It's a beautiful movie. I really, really like it. But like, you know, Sentimental Value is about that. There's a handful of it. Hamnet is, you know, related to parenthood. It's about both, yeah.

1:03:56And Motherhood as well. The other theme this year is sort of like, do motherfuckers don't realize that being a mom is insane? That's kind of what, and you know, Die My Love is coming out in a couple of weeks. We'll talk about that film soon. The new Jennifer Lawrence, Lynn Ramsey movie. Hamnet also about that. It's obviously like a lesser theme in One Battle After Another, but I think it's like very beautifully done there. The powerful alienation of giving birth and then how to be a person after that, which this, I think, if I had legs I'd kick you is a really interesting exploration of that because it's not about a mom with a newborn.

1:04:27Yeah, it's not about postpartum. It's just about like being a mother in the world. and all the different types of people or systems that, where the ways our world is organized that just like don't support it at all. Or don't, like, it's not even that they don't acknowledge it, but it's just so much is assumed and taken for granted. There's one little detail in the movie that I really like, which, you know, I'm obviously not a mom, but I do relate to, which is very early in the film, Rose Byrne's character is trying to get her family home, get her daughter home and inside, and she's got a pizza and they're going into the house and her daughter off camera is sort of like screaming because something is going wrong and the anxiety and like intensity is already building.

1:05:10And the pizza has already fallen over and is kind of a mess. And she just kind of shoves a giant piece of cheese into her mouth. Really funny. And just like the act of eating while parenting is a really difficult survival strategy. And I'd never seen it expressed quite so specifically and perfectly as her shoving that pizza cheese into her mouth. I mean I've got a dissertation on the I guess it's the family support group or the mom support group when we get there you know which is like some of the best writing I've seen this year yeah it's really good an amazing Rose Byrne performance and I hope that she continues in the Oscars conversation I hope so too obviously a great actress who's had like a really varied career and has been in big Hollywood box office films comedies a great dramatic actress a big TV star now I did think about her in Neighbors in this.

1:06:02And it's funny. Like her motherhood in that movie. Yeah, for sure. It's a different, it's an evolution of it. She's very, fearless is always a dumb thing to say, but she's always very willing to kind of like deglamorize herself in aid of telling the story well. What did you think of Conan O 'Brien? Really funny. Yeah, it was pretty effective, right? And like a good use of, and so he plays a therapist. So we were just talking about therapy culture in, And I'm usually against that in the text of a movie, but it is, I think, used very smartly. Yes. And is examined, which ironically is not often the case in movies about analysis.

1:06:44Yes. I mean, and also Rose Byrne's character is also a therapist. And so it takes place inside of the business of that world in a way that I think is pretty revealing. This movie is a very cool accomplishment. and you can also feel, you know, Mary is married to Ronald Bronstein who is an editor and filmmaker himself who works with the Safdies. This movie is produced by Alara. Right. It is definitely kind of tonally in the realm of Uncut Gems and Marty Supreme. Yes. And the way that there is like a forced intimacy with difficult moments in life that is maybe its own new subgenre of movie that I like.

1:07:22I don't know if I could do three to six of these a year? No, like I said, it was really, really intense. Yeah. And I was really moved and also like ran out of there when it was over. Yeah. And went home and hugged my kids. Okay, don't run anywhere. Stick around now for my conversation with Mary Bronstein.

1:07:46Mary Bronstein is here, first time on the show. Hi, Mary. How are you? I'm great. How are you doing? I'm really good. I have a lot of questions for you about your film. which I found to be fascinating and invasive in good ways. Do you remember the exact day that you began writing it? I do. I do. I started writing this film on the bathroom floor of a really shitty hotel room because it was the only place I could escape to. while sharing a hotel room with my daughter. She was little, lights out at eight. We were roommates in this tiny room with two twin beds. And the only place I could go to be, that I could like be, I thought like do my own thing, was this bathroom.

1:08:47The turn on the light, awful fluorescent lighting. I'd be in there every night drinking like cheap wine, scarfing, junk food, a lot of Jack in the Box involved in this, uh, in San Diego. And, uh, one night I was sitting there and I just realized I had this like dread, this feeling of dread. And, um, we were there in San Diego cause my daughter, um, was getting treatment for illness that she had. She was seven years old and she's 15 now and she's, and she's great. she's fine. But I had this sense of existential dread that I couldn't put my finger on. And at first I thought it was because of the situation I was in, like, will she get better?

1:09:31What will happen? Then I realized it wasn't that at all. It was a feeling that I felt like I was disappearing into, um, because everything, every part of my being was being put into taking care of her and, and making sure that she was going to get better so that we could get back to New York and get back to normal. But then I realized, oh, wait, she is going to get better. And we are going to go back to New York to our home. And it is going to go back to quote unquote normal. But like what, what then, what then, because I've been in this state now for so long, we were there for eight months and she was ill before that, before we even got there.

1:10:15I've been in this caretaking role for so long. It's been my whole life. What then? What's going to happen? And I literally, in a very literal sense, felt myself disappearing, my being, my self. And I started writing the script in that bathroom, in that state and in that physical place and in that emotional place right there. Um, and I just started writing it and I first started writing it to kind of like give myself, um, a way to express all of these things I was feeling, but also a way to like set, have a hope for the future. Well, if I'm writing this thing, it's not, I am not writing it to put it in a drawer later.

1:11:06I'm not Emily Dickinson this. This is gonna, I want to make this, I want to make this movie. And it was, it saved me in a little bit of way. It gave me an answer for what could be the future. Were you explicit about the fact that you wanted to make it as a film or just that like even the idea of being creative at that time gave you hope for the future of yourself? Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, that I wanted to make it into a film, uh, because part of like, I had this existential crisis, like I said, and part of it was coming back around to, I had made my first film, um, you know, in 2008 and then I made some shorts and then I disappeared from that world.

1:11:54Um, and, and, and part of the existential examination crisis that I was going through, I came around to the fact that, hey, wait a minute, I've been running away from this thing. Like in the movie, the character is running away from herself. I've been running away from myself. I'm a filmmaker. I'm a screenwriter. That's what I am. I'm going to, that's what I am. And that's what I want to do. And, uh, I was so outside of the, of any sort of, um, way to imagine that the movie would get made, uh, and so outside of any system, uh, and certainly like the, the standard industry at that point at any point, uh, with my work that, But it was it was really felt like a like a fantasy that it would get made.

1:12:49But I but I I knew that I had to. I had to. I had to because I had something to say and it was something urgent. And so many movies get made where the person has nothing to say. And there's no that person is not in that movie. That person, their fingerprints are not in that movie. And when they talk about the movie, they can't talk about it because they had no reason to make the movie other than to make a movie. I had a reason to make a movie. I had something to say. And so it was with that energy and that sort of tenacity that I barreled forward. It's not, it doesn't scream blockbuster. So how do you like get people to agree to make the movie?

1:13:32How do you raise money? How do you like actually go from where you were when your daughter was seven to now where she's 15? Like what happens in that eight years? Yeah. I mean, really it was the script. I, I, I honed the script over a two year period and then started sharing it. And, you know, I had the experience where everybody that read the script said, oh my God, this is the best script I've ever read. But we can't make this movie, which, which doesn't make any sense. Right. But the reason why I was getting those responses was because it's not, like you said, it's not a blockbuster. Although I did bust a block in Australia.

1:14:22There was a movie theater. There were people lined up around the block. And I was like, that's a blockbuster. That counts. I take it back. I'm sorry. But I busted a block once. How long was the block? Do you have like yardage? They were around. I feel like if it goes around a corner, that counts. I agree. We'll see if it happens again. I don't know. You've made a blockbuster. No, it's not. It's a movie where the central struggle of the movie is not a commercial one. It's a creative one. And those are movies that when they can slip through the system and get made, I think for viewers are the most exciting because it doesn't happen all the time.

1:15:04Um, and for me really, it was, it was my script that got, that, that got this done. Um, everybody, uh, responded to the script so strongly. Uh, but some people, you know, they didn't want to take the risk. Uh, other people wanted me to change ideas in the script, which I was not willing to do. So I'd walk away. Uh, other people had like really bizarre ideas about how I should change the script to make it more commercial. Can you give me an example of one? That it should be a, that it should focus on a story of a missing woman and really lean into, you know, there's the police looking for her and it's a crime thing.

1:15:51Gone girl, your story of lost identity. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, no, no, no, that's not right. So I walk away. You have to have confidence. You have to have a lot of confidence in your ideas to say no to those people in those situations. When I finally got around to A24, I was so confident in my script and so full of a sort of rage that I had been pushing this boulder up a hill for so long, you know, that I approached it with a very sort of radical, like, this is the script. this is the movie uh no notes on the script um do you want to make it or not and they said they and they said yeah we want to make it and um and and I had to go through all that time I had to go through that rejection to get to that point and then once I got there um I had partners who um trusted me, trusted my ideas, and really let me do my thing.

1:16:59That doesn't mean that it was a cakewalk making the film and making sure that my ideas were not, that I wasn't making creative concessions, but I was in the right place to be able to have those fights and win them. So I'm really curious about whether or not the visual language of the movie was in the screenplay? Because you've made like such a series of very specific choices. So like, and how would you communicate that in the writing? Because I feel like that also informs like whether or not somebody really gets what you're trying to accomplish. Yeah, yeah, totally. I'm a very, so I wrote the script knowing that if it was going to be made, I was going to direct it.

1:17:46So I wrote it really as a director's script. So I'm also a very visual writer. So I think a screenplay, there's different ways to look at screenplay. Some people look at a screenplay as a blueprint for something that will be created in the form of a film or a TV show. I think that a screenplay is a piece of work on its own, is a piece of literature on its own. But the job of it is that while you're reading the screenplay, the reader should be seeing the movie in their mind. That's a good screenplay. That's a screenplay that you read in one sitting. You know, and that's how I wrote it, where the visual choices that you see in the film, those are in the script.

1:18:42because those are central conceptual ideas that inform everything about the movie. I can't imagine writing a script for this movie that didn't have any of that and then coming up with those ideas later. It's how the story is told. It is the story, all of those elements. And so there's a lot of parts that were difficult to put on paper because they're quite abstract. And those were the difficult parts of writing. But yeah, that's how it was. So the conceptual elements that you're talking about, like not seeing the daughter, the abstractions of what I call the void, the hamster stuff, all of that, the breathwork stuff, the imagery that gets abstracted there, even the sounds are in the screenplay.

1:19:55This is an obvious one, but even the idea of just how close the camera would be to an actor. That's in there. That's in there. Yes. So while I'm writing the script, I'm also visually giving the reader what the movie is going to be. Um, and for me, uh, as someone that was writing it, wanting to be the person to direct it, um, I'm also giving myself that gift and all of who's going to be the people that's going to help me execute my vision, that gift. because then I have a document that they can read that they can understand what I mean instead of me trying to translate it just from my brain. It can start from there and then the conversation can start from there.

1:20:54It also feels like it's maybe potentially a warning to a certain kind of actor who isn't ready to take a leap with something like this. Sure. So I feel like Rose signing on to do it, you know, that's a, this is a very, I don't know if risky is the right word, but you know, it's a very intense part. I imagine it was very intense making it. It is. It's, you know, when I was, when I was writing the script, I kept thinking of it as like a gift that I was going to give an actress. because the character is a middle-aged woman, um, who is, uh, and, and the, and it's, it's radically in only her point of view or in her reality.

1:21:36Um, I'm writing it, I'm directing it. That doesn't exist. That doesn't exist. There are not parts, um, for middle-aged women that are like this, where you, if you're a performer or something that you can really sink your teeth into and really like go there emotionally, which is what every actor wants to do. That's why they are actors. Um, and, um, I knew that I was also, uh, writing a really big check that, uh, somebody, the actress would have to cash and it can bounce or else the whole thing doesn't work. Right. And so Rose was always on the top of my list for like, for a few reasons. One, she's, I mean, she's, she's an incredible talent.

1:22:32I think she's, I'm biased now, but, but, but at the time, even when, before I knew her, I thought she's one of the best that we have working today. Um, she's somebody that has this like rare combination where she has a, uh, innate understanding of comedy and comedic timing, um, that you can't teach. Um, and, uh, also has the ability is it, is a exceptional proper technical actor. Um, this woman, you know, has, has, has played Medea, uh, on stage. And she also can be in Bridesmaids and she also can be in, in platonic, but she can also do something like the show physical, which when I saw the first episode of that show, I felt like that was the audition tape for this movie.

1:23:23I saw, I saw it and I was like, she can do this. She can do this. And she's also beloved. If you mention whenever I would mention, you know, Oh, who's in your movie, Rose Byrne. I love Rose Byrne universally, universally. That's the thing. So then I can also, I'm harnessing that as a tool as well, because when her face comes on the screen, it's a face that the viewer, you know, is used to, they have goodwill towards her. They're used to seeing her in things that make them feel good, that bring them joy, that will make them laugh. Uh, and so having, I use that as a tool too, because, uh, I'm taking the audience into some really, really dark places.

1:24:15Um, and if I have somebody, um, at the helm of it, who, even if it's just subconscious, you feel good about, um, I'm going to be able to go even further. And Rose is, you know, the script is very difficult to perform. Sometimes you're getting a laugh on the heels of a very serious scene and the opposite. And sometimes it's happening inside of a scene. You're getting a laugh inside of a very tense scene. And she can do that. There's a very small list of people who can do that. And for me, she's at the top of it. And this performance is beyond my wildest dreams. She availed herself to me creatively so fully.

1:25:06She turned herself inside out and upside down for this thing. It's a physical performance as well. And it was very intense. I wanted to ask you about what it's like to put your experience on screen in front of so many people I know it's not a documentary and I know certain aspects of the story are changed but even just hearing you describe the genesis of the idea like it seems like there are legitimate one-to-one points of comparison yeah like I always the way that I think about it is it's certainly not an I would never say it's an autobiographical film in the traditional sense, but it's emotionally true.

1:25:50Everything in it is emotionally true, which is what I was trying to get at. So it started, the impetus for it is a true thing. And then I'm trying to take, what I was trying to do is take those feelings that I was having, that existential terror that I was experiencing and abstracting it out into a story that is pretend.

1:26:21So all of it is based in truth, but most of it is a fantasy. It's pretend. It's a movie. There's a tract related to that that I want to ask you about. So because any character that's a mother in a movie, if they do something that is not an expectation of motherhood, they break a rule like that immediately gets identified as an unlikable character. Right. Sure. Yes. and you're trying to create like a nuanced portrayal of a sensation that you have, but then do you know when you're writing and making the film that that's immediately going to be like something you're going to have to tangle with the idea of being like, you have, you know, ceded your responsibilities or whatever the, you know, castigation ends up becoming?

1:27:10Absolutely. And that's part of what I was, that's part of also what I was trying to do is, is, um, is subvert that. Um, and not only subvert it, um, by putting the subversion is putting the audience in her, in her reality totally so that there's no, um, there's no, there's nowhere else to go, but her experience and her reality and what her, what she's feeling and what she's experiencing. Some of the things she's experiencing, we don't know if they could be happening or they could not be happening. That's for the viewer to decide. And some of the things that she's doing are objectively wrong. And some of the things she's doing ride the line.

1:28:03Maybe, I don't know. And then some of the things she's doing, I know, I know even when I'm writing the script, I'm, I'm going to lose some people here. It doesn't scare me. It doesn't scare me. Um, because one thing that I was, that I trying to do and I, and I want to do in all my work and I have done in my previous work is put, um, put women characters on screen that we do not see on screen, but that we know we, they are real people that we have encountered in life, however it is. They are people that exist. When you go through life, there are some people who you don't like. When you go through life, there's some people who you like, but then make some choices that you don't like, and you have to make a decision on how you're going to handle that as a person.

1:29:01um film as a is an art form that is a reflection of life it is a moving breathing alive thing that's what makes it different than than a painting or or even a book or something like that and and so i think the the whole idea of uh it being this taboo thing um to have the audience have to grapple with those things while watching a film, um, is, doesn't make sense to me because you grapple with it every single moment of your day. Um, even going and get your coffee, even, you know, doing anything much less with your actual like intimate circle of people, your spouse or your children or your, your parents or whatever.

1:29:50Um, you're grappling constantly with human beings who, who you don't, who are, who you don't like all the time, but that you have a, but that you, it's an empathy test. It's an empathy test. Can you, and that's what film is to me. Can you sit in the dark for two hours and get into somebody else's experience that has nothing to do with yours and find yourself in it. And when you find yourself in it, that's empathy. And that's going to erase the concept of, do I like this person or do I not like this person? It becomes beyond that. And my, also, I have this idea too, that if you watch a film and a character offends you, you need to look at yourself.

1:30:47You need to look at yourself because what about it is bothering you so much? And I'm interested in that. I'm interested, I'm interested in, in that, in reactions to my film, but beyond that, just in, uh, as a, as a person, I'm fascinated by human behavior. I'm fascinated by, uh, the things that people do that don't make sense, uh, to me. Um, and how, how to make sense of it because we're, because I'm a person too. So why am I a person that didn't do that? And that person is, um, and that's all in the movie. That's all in the movie. Me, myself, I went and I went to the bathroom and turned the light on and would spend the night in there, uh, you know, with wine and junk food.

1:31:34Linda leaves the hotel entirely. Um, there's a difference there. There's a big difference there. Um, and, and what I'm fascinated in is where, where, where does that division come, come and how do we feel about it? And like, at the end of the day, like art to me is communication. Um, whether any form, whether it's a song or, or painting or a book or a poem or a film or whatever. Um, it's a form of communication. Um, and, uh, there's also, there's films that you consume that are, that are to be, that are to, to be sat there and be entertained. And then there are films that are to be experienced.

1:32:27and those are the ones that are communicating to you. And so if you turn your back on it, it's because you don't want to be in that conversation. That's how I feel. So I have been thinking about how to share this movie with my wife. We have a young daughter and I suspect that the loss of self that is a big part of the story. I think it's fair to guess she'll click with it. But I also think it will make her feel something that maybe she doesn't want to feel. Like she'll identify, but it will hurt. I'm speculating. I don't want to speak for her, obviously. But it's very hard to not think about that watching the film from my perspective.

1:33:17Absolutely. and I guess I'm curious about how you feel about that about like is it better to see something and click with it even though it hurts or you know maybe how you think about even what people have told you about experiencing the movie because it is so intimate and specific and there are not a lot of movies about this no there's not I think that one of the things about the movie that's been most powerful for people that people have directly, um, uh, expressed to me is that, is that thing that you're saying is that these are things that, uh, like women are trained. The whole movie is about something that, that women are trained, uh, not to talk about because these feelings feel like a betrayal to your child.

1:34:17You can love your child and also say or feel that sometimes you need a break. Sometimes it's too much. Sometimes you've reached your point. Sometimes you just want to take a nap and you can't believe that you can't because you're responsible for this other human being. sometimes you want to just run away and you can't because again you're responsible for a human life and uh in our culture we do this really weird thing to women where it's like mothers are like revered and oh a mother is the best thing a mother but it's also completely disrespected and dismissed and ignored as far as what it actually is to be a mother and and for and let's broaden it out to a caretaker of any sort.

1:35:10The responsibility of that can sometimes feel crushing, crushing. And the 24 hours of it, the 24 hour, it doesn't stop. And you are constantly being needed for something and you're constantly fulfilling needs. And then at a certain point it's sort of like, well, I have needs. I'm a human being. I was a full, fully formed human being, individual person before I had a child. Why, why does that change once I have a child? Why is that expected to change once I have a child? Now it doesn't mean that, uh, you, I'm condoning the things that Linda does, but the things that Linda does, uh, are, are come out of that feeling.

1:36:07They come out of that feeling. And so I can, I can, I can have them in a film, uh, because it's not as scary as actually like thinking of doing it yourself. And the idea that, um, women don't even talk about this with each other, by the way, uh it is it is it is verboten it is it is it is taboo to say my kid really annoyed me last night in this one in this one millisecond of a moment I didn't like my kid um but you're a human being and your kid's a human being and and that's normal um it doesn't mean uh that you're bad And then there's this whole other thing that we do to mothers, which is that the only way we can talk about it is by making it a joke.

1:36:59Like, bad moms. Like, oh, it's wine o 'clock. Mommy juice. Like, all that stuff. And making a joke out of it, right? And it's like, no. Moms, when kids go to bed, moms drink. And why? Why? Because it's a way to escape without actually doing what Linda does, which is putting her child actually in danger by leaving the premises. Um, and, uh, and, and so it's like, if somebody, uh, a woman sees themselves in, in the film in a way that scares them, uh, that's the thing that they, that they should be thinking about, about themselves and, and, and, and why it scares them. and how maybe to recalibrate things so that it's not something that is a part of their life.

1:38:00Because it doesn't have to be. So I have a related question. If it's too personal, you tell me. Has your daughter seen this movie? No. She's not seen the movie. She says to me that she doesn't ever want to see the movie. And that's fine. What does she know about it? What she knows about it is that it is inspired by an experience that we had together. But the way I've explained it to her is that it is not a story about the daughter. Because I said to her from the beginning, if you want to tell your story, you can do that one day if you want to. I'm not telling your story. What I'm doing is telling a story about a mother in this situation.

1:38:52And the mother is me, but it's my feelings. It's not about me either. And she understands it in that way and accepts it in that way. She's very proud of the fact that at the end, there's a card that dedicates it to her. Very proud of that. And she's very proud of me. But she said to me, is it okay if I never watched the movie? And I said, it's absolutely okay. It's okay with me. Because we also had a shared, we had a shared trauma. In the movie, Linda is running away from a very specific trauma that has to do with this situation. And she's running away and she's running away and she's running away by drinking, by doing drugs, by literally running away, by, you know, all of these things by doing, trying to do breath work, uh, going, you know, and it's like this idea where trauma it's inside of you, whether you deal with it or not, and it's going to get you, it's going to get you.

1:39:58And in this movie, it gets her, it slaps her in the face. Um, and she, she still can't deal with it. She still can't deal with it. and um so it's talking up so i i explain it to her in that way is that i is that your story is your story i have my own trauma about it and that's what this movie is about um it's why i also make some conceptual choices like not showing the daughter um because does she know how it ends uh no okay no um no she doesn't uh she knows very little about it in fact um one time yeah the the reason that i don't show the daughter is is for a couple reasons one is like i said it's not the daughter's story i wanted to very radically you know the bad version the bad version of this whole thing is, uh, is a, is a, is like a, a slick sort of like lifetime movie, uh, you know, mother on the verge, you know, we, we know those movies.

1:41:09We, we know those, you know, they exist. Um, this, I want to do something different, which is no, no, no, but it's not about her and the daughter. It's about her. And the daughter is one of the things in her life that she feels oppressed by. And we hear her voice, but we don't see her. There's two reasons for that. One is that Linda cannot see her daughter in a figurative sense as anything other than something that's another thing that's oppressing her and put upon her and an obligation and needing her and wanting from her. She can't see her as a little human person. She can't derive joy from her child.

1:42:06She's bitter about the fact that she can't be a regular mom, that she has to contend with this. This is not what she signed up for, right? And she's, and she's fighting against it. Uh, and then the other reason is that once you introduce the face of a child, just as human beings, the way we're programmed, your sympathy is going to go with the child, uh, automatically we can't help it. That's how we're programmed. Unless you have no soul. Uh, so I'm having, I'm having this character do things, uh, where I need that not to be a complication in the way that the audience is looking at this woman. It's again, an empathy test.

1:42:56Um, and if I was to have the daughter in there for the whole time, it wouldn't work. It wouldn't work. And then hopefully, um, you know, there's a payoff for the audience that, that, that I have, that, that I know works because people have, um, expressed to me that it, it is a payoff that sticks to the landing and it, and it's, it, it, it kind of speaks to everything that I just said. Everything that I just said becomes true. Uh, and, uh, I don't want to give it away. Um, but, uh, you know, it's a, it's a, also, I want to say like in the script level, I made that choice already. That was one of the first choices I made that we're not going to see the daughter.

1:43:42That was a real trust me moment, uh, for, for everybody. Trust me, trust me, trust me. I didn't know if it was going to work or not, but I, I had to, I had to have everybody trust me that it was going to work. And then I think it does work. Uh, and I feel like it's one of the things that I'm like, Oh man, I pulled that off. I think it works. And I agree that it sticks the landing. Yeah, thank you. Mary, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen. Have you seen anything that you've liked recently? Well, I haven't seen anything new. That's okay.

1:44:26It could be anything. Because when I'm creating, I can't take in new other people. I don't want to take in other people's ideas. And this has been such a long process. But the last great thing I saw that is a really good question. I rewatched Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf recently. I hadn't seen it since I was maybe in college. And it always was in my mind. it was in my mind as this thing that was like the greatest, uh, example of a chamber piece for people in a room, all performance. The movie is performance. Uh, and then I was like, does this hold up that it holds up? It holds up. Elizabeth Taylor is kicking ass and taking names and And it is, I think, probably most of your listeners have seen it, but if they have not, they should see it right away because it is an example of a movie that doesn't need anything but a great performance.

1:45:44So interesting too, because it's kind of similar to your movie, which is like it's a confrontation of discomfort, you know, that there is those conversations that those characters are having. They're rough, especially for that time in a movie. It's rough. And it's, you know, what I love about, about reference, like a pure reference is that like, we watch all these movies, we, we digest them. They become part of our DNA. They become part of our, our, our, they, they sometimes change the way our brain works. They're inside our bodies. And if it comes out and work, um, in a way that I don't even know, that's a pure reference.

1:46:24It's like Orson Welles says, the worst thing to happen to filmmaking is the homage. I agree, that's making movies about movies. And so when I re-watched it, I was like, this is my work. This is so in my work, but in a way that I didn't even think about when I was making the movie. It's a great one. Mary, congrats on the film. Thanks for doing the show. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. This was so fun.

1:46:56Thank you to Mary Bronstein. Thank you to Yassi. Thank you to CR. Thank you to Amanda. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. What's happening next week? What are we doing? It's the other side of the festival post-mortem. That's right. So we split this episode in half, actually. We were originally going to also talk about A House of Dynamite, which was the big premiere that you saw at Venice. Right. So that film is hitting Netflix today. Yes. And we'll talk about it on Monday. We'll see you then.

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