The 10 Best Movies at Sundance, and the Astonishing ‘Nickel Boys’

25:17I did feel lucky to see some movies. There were a bunch this year, maybe even more than normal, that were not made available on the platform. I saw Opus at a screening. Opus was not available. I believe all the A24 films were not made available. There was a focus film starring Carey Mulligan, The Ballad of Wallace Island that wasn't available. A bunch of stuff that were theoretically bigger ticket titles, but the titles that'll be out in the next few months. What I did see, I think that there were three big standouts, maybe four, and then some stuff I liked. that's a small number for Sundance I'm usually able to pull a lot I didn't see everything but I did get through about 25 movies the best thing I saw was Train Dreams I think this was true for many people who saw it Train Dreams is an adaptation of a Dennis Johnson novel an author that I love but I've not read this book this is a really short Dennis Johnson book that is sitting on my shelf at home and I've never read it before so I didn't know the story and it's directed by Clint Bentley and written by Bentley and Greg Quedar.

26:24These are the two guys who made Sing Sing. So Clint and Greg, as Greg talked about on the show when he talked about Sing Sing on the pod, they basically like trade where Clint makes a movie and Greg helps and then Greg makes a movie and Clint helps. That's a nice way to do it. Yeah, it is cool. And they obviously have this great partnership. Clint had a movie at Sundance a few years ago. Maybe it was Tiff. It might have been Tiff called Jockey. This new one stars Joel Edgerton, your favorite actress, Felicity Jones. Carrie Condon and William H. Macy. It's primarily Joel Edgerton. It's about a guy named Robert Grainer, who is a logger born in the 1880s.

26:59And it just kind of charts periods of his life. Okay. I have been, I would say, unkind to Joel Edgerton as a movie star in the past. Yes. I have often said you could replace him with most other actors at his level and get a better movie. This is one of the first movies I've ever seen with Edgerton that perfectly accesses his skill, which is he has a taciturn anti-charisma. His internal quiet is used very, very well in this movie. Now, I'm very interested to see if you like this movie. I mean, you're just like, it's about a logger. It's very, very... Who has dealings with Felicity Jones at some point.

27:41I was like, well, I'm out. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. That's mean. It's not the most Amanda movie I've ever seen, but it is a very heartful movie. It is very Malick, which I know you can go either way on. It does a couple of things. It's good, and if it's not good, it's not good. That's the definition of which way I go. Yeah, I'm curious to see if these guys get their Oscar revenge with the Sing Sing situation. Sure, unfortunately they were acquired by Netflix. We have some questions. We've got some notes about the Oscar strategy. That is the tricky part. One, this movie is beautiful. The opening shot of the movie is something I've never seen before in a movie, but immediately transports you into this world.

28:20It's like a camera is affixed to a tree that is being cut down. And you move with the tree. Well, now you've spoiled it. Well, it's the first thing we see. Stop telling me stuff. Okay, well, all right. I won't say anything more about the movie. Yeah. I only saw it on my TV, and while I was watching it, I was like, God, I wish I was in a movie theater for this because it's so beautiful. And then I read that it was acquired by Netflix, and I was like, what? Why? Why? Of all the streamers and corporations, and why do they even want this movie? This movie says nothing about how Netflix programs their movies.

28:56Is it just an awards play? I found this very disappointing that they bought it. I hope they put it in movie theaters. I know they probably won't. It's not a perfect film, but it's very good. I was glad I watched it. People should check it out whenever it's made available to the world. A movie I liked. Yeah. It's called The Things You Kill. It's a psychological thriller. by an Iranian filmmaker named Alireza Khatami. I'm not going to share too much about this movie because it's a bit of a head fuck. And to give away any of its plot details, I think would ruin it. But if you like the kind of Iranian social realism, like if you like Asghar Farhadi movies or the Panahi movies or Abbas Kirstami and the sort of like ethereal quality that he brings to his movies, it's kind of like a big stew of those movies.

29:43It's set in Turkey. It's not set in Iran. But, you know, you can see the major influence on Katami. And then there's like a very David Lynchian quality to it. So it was just sort of well-timed since we've been thinking about Lynch after he died. And thinking about what, the way that those influences kind of collide together. For a movie that basically you're just waiting to see like what's going to happen. You know, like a kind of traditionally well-told story. So I liked that. the best movies that I saw this year were three documentaries they're paired together obviously documentary is what Sundance is doing really well these days the names of the movies are The Perfect Neighbor, Predators and Zodiac Killer Project I'll tell you about them very quickly I think you'll probably be hearing about the first two throughout the year and we'll probably be talking about them at this time next year The Perfect Neighbor is directed by Gita gone to be here it is about a terrible crime in Florida in a small neighborhood and it's told entirely through police body cameras but it's not a movie about police brutality that they're basically just the vessel to tell the story of a dispute between neighbors and it's sort of like it's a portrait of community problems and the problem of stand your ground laws which if you're not familiar with them, you know, they're about the right to a certain experience, um, uh, in a home, um, that Florida, I think passed, I want to say 15 years ago.

31:18There's just an alarming incident rate in the aftermath of the passing of this law. I don't want to spoil anything for you. The movie is cut together like a kind of beat by beat who done it. Um, and why it's like very slow rolling, but it's done. I think it's right on the edge of exploitative, in my opinion. It doesn't really cross the line, but it shows just like a tremendously painful thing that actually happened and confronts you with it. And then really had me thinking. The classic Sundance virtual experience of like, I watched this at 1130 p.m. and I was like, fuck. And then I couldn't go to bed and I couldn't fall asleep and I was thinking about it all day long.

31:55So that is The Perfect Neighbor. The next one is Predators. Did you ever watch the show To Catch a Predator? I don't know whether I watched it or whether it became like a meme in so much, or not even a meme, but like a reference bit in so much other pop culture, you know, where like people would make jokes about it. Or like, I saw your headline on to, I saw your face on to catch a predator or whatever. Like it became a reference point. It did. It did. This was a show that ran from 2003 to 2007. It was a spinoff from Dateline. It was a show that was sort of, it was like, it was like a prank show to entrap child predators you know like was it really?

32:34okay then I never watched it it wasn't it's not a prank show it's just set up the same way where there's sort of like hidden cameras everywhere and an actor would portray an underage girl or boy and get into online conversations with men who were like looking for a meeting and and something much worse than that and every episode was that every episode was hidden cameras in a home that was a rented house a 25 year old actor dressed to look like a 13 year old or a 15 year old and then the host of the show Chris Hansen who was a journalist for Dateline would come out and confront the the the criminal I guess about what it was he thought he was doing in that space and it was tremendously awkward but sort of like weirdly gratifying because you were like take this guy down and it had like a big moment yeah so I never I never actually watched this the movie the show in retrospect is like such an ethical quagmire and the documentary goes into extraordinary depth into figuring out how and why.

33:37And it's just, it's just an incredibly well done documentary. Like, I don't want to say anything else about it, but really, really probing and kind of forcing you to think about why you like the things that you like and what is really the line between, um, an online experience versus a real world experience and mental health. And, um, basically like what TV can do to victimize everyone involved. I loved that movie directed by David Osit. Okay. And then the third one is kind of cool that I think you will at least appreciate it. It's called Zodiac Killer Project. It's directed by Charlie Shackleton.

34:10Really more of an essay film. So Shackleton was trying to make a regular true crime documentary about a book about the Zodiac Killer. At the last minute, the rights to the book fell through. The author decided he didn't want the book adapted. And so instead, what he did is he took all of the tropes that you would find in one of these documentaries and he starts unpacking them and analyzing them. So a lot of B-roll of locations and then he just talks over it and says, and here's the part in the documentary where I would do this. You remember in making a murderer, this scene happened and it would be just like that scene.

34:41And he kind of like showcases all of these different strategies that documentarians use to get you invested in the worst thing in the world. It's a clever movie. It's not on the par of the first two movies that's the first two docs that I talked about. But this like analysis of true crime and the way that true crime is rendered on camera or on screen is a fascinating trilogy, like accidental trilogy maybe. There were a lot of incidental or accidental like pairings across the whole festival. But that one was good as well and worth watching. I'll mention a couple more. Yeah. Sorry Baby. Was there any talk of Sorry Baby when you were on the ground?

35:22No, but again, I mean, I like, I drove to Park City went to the movie went to a party went home I thought maybe at the party there would be because this movie was in the least no I was mostly talking to my friends that's the other thing or your friends I met some of your friends as well and they were very nice and said nice things about you how nice to hear and mostly they we talked about other film festivals so okay and how they're superior or yeah there was a lot of not a lot of but there was like you know come to Telluride come to Telluride because like as soon as I go to a film festival like the sirens song of Venice like reaches out to me, you know?

35:59But I don't know. Logistics are hard. Everyone wants to be in Telluride except for you. It's a very strange thing. I'm trying to get Griffin Newman to go this year. I think Griffin should go. I think for people who like mountains, like you go for it. Me, I like the sea and a Negroni. I'm certain that they have Negronis in Colorado. Nevertheless, we digress. I actually asked for one in Utah, and they don't there for a variety of reasons. But anyway. Ah, yeah. Utah, a little more challenging. Well, the very nice bartender was like, we can make, it's an open bar. We can make almost anything for you.

36:34And I was like, can you make a Negroni? And they were like, ah, no. And then everyone made fun of me. I'm very sorry to hear that. I thought it might come up at the A24 parties because A24 did acquire this movie. Probably the least surprising thing I heard about Sundance this year was that A24 acquired this movie. Eva Victor is a writer-director of this movie. It's about a woman in a small college town reflecting on a traumatic event in her life. To share anything more would be saying too much. It is, on the surface, very Sundance. It's more clever than that, than your trope-y kind of a movie.

37:09Eva Victor, a comedian, I think pretty famous on TikTok, though as you mentioned, we're not on TikTok. Lucas Hedges is in this movie. He hasn't been in a movie in some time. He's back. He's also the boy prince of A24. or Naomi Aki is in this movie as her friend. Eva is the star of the movie as well as the writer and the director. I think she nailed something really impressive with the tone. I think many of the people that I was reading out of the festival liked this movie more than I did, but it's still very good and worth recommending. Okay. Two quick ones. Yeah. Andre is an idiot. Really good documentary about a guy who gets colon cancer and then just decides to let people follow him as he goes through the entire process of colon cancer.

37:46Sounds very upsetting. It is very upsetting at times. This guy is extremely irreverent. He's like an ad agency man too. So he like knows the power of visual communication. So he's like, he's in on the bit. And it's part of this thing that he's doing. This is actually also an A24 documentary, which I did not realize it won the audience award for US documentary. I think people will enjoy this. 2000 Meters to Andrivka is Manislav's, Chernov's follow-up to 20 Days in Mariupol. This is also a film about the war between Ukraine and Russia. Okay. And it's very scary and sad. It's sort of like the, I don't know, kind of like the Black Hawk down to the children of men in 20 Days in Mariupol.

38:26You know, like it's just like, it's the war movie. It is, he's on the front lines as the Ukrainian army is attempting to liberate this like one mile forest from Russian forces, which is considered a very strategic stronghold in this war. And so he's just with grunts in the trenches for two hours. It's a tough watch. you know just like 20 days in maripole was tough but worth watching um and then the saddest thing i saw was omaha oh great we saved it to the end yeah uh cole webley uh is the director robert machoian is the writer he's directed a couple of incredibly sad movies about men whose like lives are falling apart and the way that it affects people around them i would say not an amanda movie although like it is in some ways as well it's just does one need more sadness at this moment is where I am.

39:15And you and I and people feel differently about that. Well, I usually love to feel beat up by a movie. You know, it's been a really hard year. I mean, it's overwhelming. Yeah, and so I think it was a lot going through the pain cave of Sundance. Yeah. This movie, it's about a father who flees his Nevada home with his two young children early one morning to go to Nebraska. Why he wants to go to Nebraska is revealed throughout the movie. I think some people will be very mad at this movie because of how it makes you feel okay that's certainly the point the reason I bring it up is because John Magaro who has been my favorite actor for the last few years is at the center of this movie he is the most sad person in movies as we all know fans of past lives he's the star of September 5 which is a point of discussion on this episode have you watched The Agency?

40:02I haven't he's on The Agency and he's actually getting to be at least like a little stupid you know it's not all like deep sadness. There is even a little bit of, he's making some blunders. I'm not caught up. I would welcome that. So like if he dies at the end and I am lying, I'm really sorry. I haven't seen it yet. Okay. I hope he survives. Just a terrific actor and he's great in this movie, which will mix some people. Quick roundup on a couple things I did like. The Jeff Buckley documentary that Amy Berg made is awesome. I'm a huge Jeff Buckley fan. I've probably talked about him on the show before.

40:36There hasn't been a film about him. He died many, many years ago. oh, this is as close as we're going to get to the definitive story. I did see the Selina documentary, which I thought was pretty good. I thought it was pretty standard, but pretty good. Prime Minister, which is about the Prime Minister of New Zealand during the COVID lockdown and how she took a very different tact during complicated times in our history than many of the world leaders. That's pretty good. I watched the Marlee Matlin documentary, which also is pretty good and kind of tracked the arc of her career and her very tumultuous and ugly relationship with William Hurt, her, you know, many performances over the years, being forced to be the only advocate for deaf actors for 30 years in Hollywood before CODA.

41:18Sly Lives, which, full disclosure, made by my friend Joseph Patel and directed by Questlove, is really good Sly Stone documentary that also attempts to kind of, like, interrogate the challenges of, as the subtitle tells us, the burden of black genius, which is also, like, a big focus of Questlove's thought in the last 20 years. And that's pretty much it. Most everything else that I saw was kind of mixed on. Okay. Dylan O 'Brien's really good in Twinless. I didn't love Twinless, which was one of the movies that got pulled down. Oh, but it also won a lot of awards. I think he won an acting award for it.

41:56And he's great. He plays twins, two very different twins. Right. So you're on the Chris Ryan Island of... He's against that. Yeah. I usually enjoy it as an adaptation Stan. I think Guy Plays Twins is a funny idea for a movie we'll see it again soon in Sinners you know we've seen Tom Hardy do it many actors do it over the years pretty mixed bag at Sundance pretty mixed bag all right Train Dreams Will You Open Your Heart which one is that again you just listed like 45 films I honestly I don't remember anymore that's the Joel Edgerton movie the Netflix movie oh the yeah the Lager and Felicity Jones Sure.

42:37You know, I will. I'm trying to have an open heart in 2025. Where are you at on Carrie Condon? Very pro. So that's good. What about William H. Macy? Pro. But I'm still mad about the time that my dad made me see The Cooler on a holiday. And I was like, God damn it. Again, you know, we just like really had an incredible run. Sick Alec Baldwin performance in that movie though. Yeah. Of my dad just picking depressing movies. After my own heart, really. Yeah. He should have been at Sundance. See, I guess that's another part of my issue. I'm just like, well, it's Christmas and we're watching The Savages.

43:11So, true story. It's not ideal. Should we pivot to Nickel Boys? Yeah. Not a lot of people have seen this movie. Right. This is a complicated discussion. Yeah, we should be measured. Yes, let's be measured. Thank you. It's directed by Ramelle Ross. It's written by Ross and Jocelyn Barnes. It's an adaptation of the Colson Whitehead novel. it is a divergence from the Colson Whitehead novel which I have read some of and went to after I saw the movie it stars Ethan Harreese Brandon Wilson Hamish Linklater Fred Hechinger Daveed Diggs Jimmy Fails and Ingenue Ellis Taylor it's about two African American boys Elwood and Turner who are sent to an abusive reform school in 1960s Florida the film is inspired by the true story of the Dozier School of Boys which was a Florida reform school that was notorious for its abusive treatment And that's not really giving anything away because that's not really, that's the story, but not the essence of the movie.

44:07Right. I think I came back from Telluride and was like, this is the best thing I saw. At the time when I saw it, the people who also saw it there, I could tell were very split and divided. Yeah. Because the movie makes some formal choices that are challenging and for some distancing. The split has basically been like, this didn't really work for me. I didn't get it. I couldn't get into it or I thought it was boring or I've never seen a movie like this before. It was amazing. It took my breath away. Yeah. I have not really seen much in the middle. I've not seen somebody be like, it was pretty good.

44:38You know, like that's not really the reaction that the movie tends to elicit. So what reaction did you have? Yeah. I don't know how I pair like the exhilaration of the inventiveness and to talk so much about form can be a little off-putting, I think until you've seen it because, you know, you start to, or at least I'm in it, I've been start to worry about like, you know, technical supremacy and kind of like movie nerdiness. But there is something truly astonishing and revelatory about the way this movie is made and what it can, what it reveals about the way you watch a movie, the way that you tell a story, the way that you see the world and learn things that I thought was electrifying and also translates into just like a, I mean, deeply heartbreaking story.

45:33Like this is, we were talking about sad stuff before, but I mean, you, because this movie is so good and communicates like, like emotion, history perspective so clearly that like that's a wallop, you know? So I was both like, oh my God, Nickel Boys. And like, I rewatched it last night and was just like, well, and now I'm feeling it again. So a huge, I mean, it's wonderful. Like it is definitely one of the best movies I've seen in the last year. I, you know, but I also, it stays with you. And that's what, I mean, that's what movies should, right? Like it is, it's, but you know, it's tough. It's funny.

46:19You told me, and I think you came back from Telluride and you were like, it's a tough sit. And I thought that, that you meant that is because of, in many ways, it's using like a new or a new ish film language. And so you'd like have to focus, you know, that's part of what I, that's, but you know, the, the other half is that it is just, it's, it's harrowing. It really is. Yeah, it's a very upsetting story, and I think it's a little bit rote to say a necessary story, but I think the necessity of the movie is the way that it's being told. So it's easy for me to get caught up in some of the wonky filmmaking choices.

46:58I asked Rommel about most of the choices that he made when he was on the show. That was on the episode that ran, I think, December 20th. If you liked Nickel Boys and want to hear him talk about it, I recommend it. He's a professor, and you can tell, and he's really good at communicating his ideas. I obviously love directors who are good at communicating their ideas, but he is particularly adept. I've talked to him a few times now about the movie, and each time it adds to my appreciation of what he was trying to achieve, which is that even though I felt like the movie was distancing a little bit at first when I first saw it, because of the difficulty of the way that you're trained to watch movies, and the way that this breaks the form of what your expectations are.

47:41The truth is that he was obviously going for the opposite, which is that a photograph is by nature distancing. But perspective, being inside of your own head through your own eyes, is not distancing. You feel close to something the way I feel right now. Between us, I can almost touch you. When you're watching something on a screen, you can't do that. Or when you're looking at a still photograph, you can't do that. So he's trying to break the barrier, I suppose, of experience by showing us as close as he can get and the filmmakers can get to what it was like to inhabit this world, if not these people.

48:13And the movie does it. Like, it does it. It takes a minute to turn the switch on. When I sat down to watch it, by the way, I didn't know anything. Like, I didn't know that they were doing it this way. Like, there was no... Right, right, right, right. And so there is that moment of... What is going on here? And even if you do know, okay, it's like a different, you know, it's first-person point of view or, you know, our brains, especially, just wired to watch movies a certain way, to look at images a certain way, to learn information. Like in a certain way, we're trained to like expect not just like plot development, but like the accretion of detail in a certain way.

48:49And so your brain, like that first 20 minutes, your brain is like definitely reworking. And it is sort of intellectual at first, right? Like you're sitting there and you're thinking, oh, okay, you're doing this instead. And you at like, this is how you're showing me this and I'm supposed to know this. I thought that it was done so, so deftly and also still with such like artistic choice that to me, it was like really revelatory and thinking about, I didn't mind that I was thinking about like camera decisions, not camera decisions or, you know, framing or all those sorts of things like that was really Why are you showing me this in this way?

49:31Yeah. And I also, you know, as an adaptation, because this is an adaptation of a novel, that was also really exciting because, you know, as someone who loves to read novels, a lot of movies don't really, you lose a lot in perspective shift. You lose a lot in suggestion and what, just the way you make a movie versus the way that you write a novel. so it was interesting and exciting to be thinking about like oh so this is what you're communicating in this way and this is kind of like if you're writing it so I thought all of that was cool but you're definitely like focusing on that for a little while until you get into the rhythm of the film and the film is also structured in a way where it is really like okay for 20 to 30 minutes we are going to really ground you in this visual decision that we're making.

50:25And you're going to learn the language. And you are like maybe so focused on learning the language that you don't realize the emotions are seeping in. And then it makes, I mean, I don't really want to spoil it because so many people haven't seen it. But there is a decision, there's a moment in the movie that's like unlike anything that you've seen in some times. Yeah, I think we can talk about a couple of them if we want to put a little bit of kind of casing around it. Before we get to that, this was sort of related to some of the things we talked about with The Brutalist, which is that to me it's very, very important to celebrate a movie like this that wants to break convention to do something a little bit different.

51:14This movie is a lot different. Yeah. and I'm kind of astonished that it got nominated for Best Picture because of how different it is now you could make the case you know it's produced by Plan B Plan B is like the reigning champion of production companies that get nominated for Best Picture and they often make movies that protect artists who have strong visions like that's a thing that they're very very well known for and especially D.D. Garner and Jeremy Kleiner the executives who run that company like they have a very very they build like a a force field around creative people. Still, this movie does a lot of things.

51:52In addition to the first person perspective, it uses archival imagery and what appear to be kind of like found documents that are created documents and musical and especially in the sound design choices that are unconventional is too soft a word to describe how it's, you know, it's a lot closer to kind of like outsider art than it is or what you might find in a museum. Yeah, I wrote fine art down. Yeah, yes. But I think it knows when you do need a little bit of emotionality. It knows when you need a little bit of performance. Performance in the sense of you need human characters. Like you need a little movie.

52:39Yes. You get Ange Nue Alice Taylor's, like, the emotion machine of the movie, right? Whenever she's on screen, you feel deeply. When Hamish Linklater's on the screen, you're furious, you're mad. Like, there are definitely choices that are typical of movie stuff, but many, many more that are not that. Right. But it's just so finely calibrated that it does know when to give you that hit of, okay so there's a thing where I know I'm supposed to feel right now so I can reorient myself around that and take the rest of the information in there's one other thing that it does where maybe we can start we'll just do like five minutes of spoilers so if you do not want to hear anything

53:24spoiler warning this isn't your typical plot spoiler it's actually a formal spoiler in terms of the way that the movie was made but it contributes significantly to the telling of the story, which is that about 35 minutes through, once the Elwood character has arrived at the school, we see his experience through the first day or so, and he's having a conversation with a classmate in the cafeteria, and then we get pulled out of that experience, and the camera essentially flips perspectives, and we go inside of his friend Turner's eyes. Right. And then the movie toggles back and forth between Elwood and Turner.

54:07And so the first thing is that you see this character whose head you've been living in for 35 minutes for the first time. And there is just something, like jubilant isn't the right word, but you're just like, oh, like there he is. It's this person that you have been like thinking about. And so, I mean, you know, it's almost like meeting your kid for the first time, sort of. You're just kind of like, oh, this is, I didn't have a visual on this. It's a really, really memorable, remarkable feeling. And then because you're toggling between the two of them, you know, it formally creates something almost akin to, like, third-person traditional filmmaking.

54:52So they, like, you do get a conversation or two between them. You get that little thread of what I think of like what we're looking for in terms of just how to watch a movie. But you also then get Turner's perspective. Which like, you know, is emotionally and slightly different than Elwood's. And he sees the world in a different way. He sees Anjanellis Taylor in a different way. And so it's like a compare and contrast as well that it's just cool. Like, it's just, I mean, I can't believe they pulled it off. Yeah, it's pretty stunning. And then I think, I won't explain how, but that choice that is made wins amazingly with the telling of the story in the second half and becomes such a coherent choice.

55:49Like when the movie flipped, the first time I was watching it, And then we start going back and forth between Elwood and Turner. Right. I thought this is a surprising and interesting choice. I'm not sure justification is a strong word, but sort of like what the purpose was other than to kind of like before sunset it, you know, or it's like he thinks this way and he thinks this way and they can go back and forth. And then there's a fusion of that choice that really pays off. I would never presume to give this a note but I will just say from my experience the first time it pays off in one way there is and we've put the spoiler things on it but there is sort of like a we're jumping times here and so there's a framing device I don't know that I like got all the information I needed to the first time with the framing device or I wasn't paying close enough attention well do you know what I mean?

56:45I mean I think it's meant to be more of a reveal near to the end Yes. Did you get the review or not quite? Not quite. Okay. That's what I'm saying. Like, I understood basically what happened. Okay. But then I was a little confused about, like, then what I was seeing. And then I had to go and look it up online. And so then I watched it a second time and I was like, oh, okay, so this was quick. You know? Like. Yes. In some ways. There's some giveaways in the sort of like. Sure. Daveed Diggs being cast, for example. Yes. Is kind of a giveaway. Yeah. in terms of what they're doing. Yes. Which I think some people complained about when I was at Telluride.

57:23Okay. They were like, this kind of ruined where this was going for me because I know that voice. Whereas when you're in the film, the two young actors, we really don't, they haven't been in a lot. We don't have a big relationship with them. And so it gives you this like, you know, I should say, Rommel was a documentarian. He was nominated for an Oscar for Hale County this morning, this evening. The movie, the first half of the movie, kind of until like Hamish Linklater and Fred Hechinger show up, I was like, this is just documentary filmmaking with like Anjanue Ellis Taylor in a kitchen. And the same way that Hale County felt like a guy who was hooked on Malick decided to make a doc.

58:01And this is such, I mean, this is, The Tree of Life is such an important movie to this movie. It's incredible. Like, if you haven't seen The Tree of Life recently, rewatch especially my favorite parts of that movie, which are the scenes in Texas when he's a young boy. And the way that Malick shoots perspective and the way that Ross shoots perspective like they are I know I always use this phrase but they are talking to each other like they are it is a it is a it is a communication bridge um the the things that I more or less the Daveed Diggs stuff is what I struggled with which is sort of like the revelation of the history of the experience that was had yeah I didn't think it worked as well however I thought the single best scene in the movie was the bar scene um which uh just features like an incredible performance from Craig Tate as one of the kids from the school who he stumbles into and they have a long conversation in which they talk around their experience.

58:56Yeah. And kind of like, it just shows you, it's just a very brief period of time, but evidence of what happened to these kids who made it through this school. So I didn't love some of the modern day stuff. Same, yeah. But I do think that there's a necessity to that part of the story that I thought had value. Again, it's one of the reasons why I'm like, you know, I know you're ragging on me for being like it's four and a half out of five or whatever, but I'm like, these are, there are things in the plotting where I felt what I could feel with him was like, this is an unseasoned narrative filmmaker making a lot of bold moves and not all of them are going to work.

59:31But aside from that, everything that happens in Florida is tremendously effective. The decision not to portray certain things when the camera looks away, when it looks at something, the way that a person would. Yeah. That stuff is so sophisticated and so interesting. I really, really like this movie a lot. It's wonderful. I mean, I hope more people get a chance to see it. I hope that you aren't listening. I mean, maybe people have skipped at this point. You know, I hope we didn't spoil it for people who haven't yet had the chance to see it. Yeah. But, you know, this is a movie podcast, you know?

1:00:03It's a movie podcast. We got to talk about our movies. It's got nominated for Best Picture. Get out there, folks. I know that's this curious thing about this time in movie history is a movie like this. is I don't think it's coming to streaming for like another month or something, which is just odd. I don't know. It was originally going to come out in October and then they pushed it to December and then it came out in five cities and then they pulled it and now you can't really watch it. We're lucky that we got to watch it the way that we did. People should check it out and listen to not just my conversation with Rommel, but I would go hunt down some of his interviews because he's a great talker for the movie.

1:00:33Okay, I don't know if we could pivot any harder. But it's like it's for like an emotionally sort of downer episode. Yeah. So we started high. Yeah. Opus. Yeah. Then just, you know. Well, we started with you acquiring the password to the email account. Oh, sure. That's right. That's right. That was the highest high. Bonnie has not provided it yet. Okay. We're still waiting here. Bonnie, I'm just watching. Is it useful if I text it to you right now? Just say it on the pod. You know, another of my friends texted me about the guy from The Idea of You. And so I, and I had time to respond to that. So I can, I can do a lot.

1:01:06We can have it all on this podcast. Nicholas Gallitson? Yeah. I think she enjoyed the performance, not me. So, Password, Opus, positive. Then, Bummertown Sundance. An artistically tremendous, but emotionally grueling film in Nickel Boys. And now we're going back up. We're going back up to Goodrich. Which I did tell you, I watched over the holidays. With low expectations. Sure. I can't say I'm a fan of Home Again. No. I had a great time at the premiere, but yeah. Wonderful house. Sure. That will come up again, I'm certain. And you know what? Maybe this is my bias showing, but the perspective of the movie obviously flatters some of my personal interests and experiences in life.

1:01:57but this movie which is about an art dealer in his 60s sure whose wife leaves him all of a sudden to check herself into rehab and leaves him with two nine year old twins and he has no idea what to do he's obviously an older dad who is not the primary caretaker of his children he also has an adult daughter who's going through some things of her own she's also pregnant and it's just a it's your classic Like James L. Brooks family kind of coming apart, but they need each other dramedy. Yeah, and they say emotional things to each other in, you know, recognizable slice of life set pieces. Correct. And the things that we don't normally get to say to each other are said, you know, pretty well.

1:02:49Articulate the things you need to say. Pretty explicitly, you know? Yeah, so your boy Michael Keaton is the star of this movie. Yeah, I think he's everybody's boy. This is unbelievable. I did. If you're going to read text messages, you should also read the text message I sent you about Studio Ghibli over the weekend. Oh, right. Okay, hold on. Oh, Bobby did just send me the password. Okay, thank you, Bob. Noted. Okay, here we go. Alice has been on a Studio Ghibli kick this week. We know that because you got angry texts from Eileen being like, where are the Studio Ghibli Blu-rays? I can't find them.

1:03:25I don't know, but that was an all-time moment. That was like five minutes before we started recording. She was like, I need to know where Princess Mononoke is ASAP. That's an intense one for Alice to be requesting. She didn't watch it. It's way too grown up for her. Okay. And I realized if Knox needs an introduction, it's this one. And then you accidentally send me the leak to Greta Gerwig's Uber Eats ad. And then you sent me a link to Porco Rosso and you described it as Michael Keaton as a 1930s pig pilot. Which honestly, if Knox does need an introduction, that is what we would start with. Instead, I showed him Mamma Mia last night.

1:04:03He's like an Errol Flynn, Humphrey Bogart style character. Yeah. He's like a devil may care hero. At some point, at some point we will. Yeah. Okay. I'm just putting it out there. Knox, I know, would be like, this is crack. Yeah. I need this. Anyhow. I actually think you would like Porgo Rosso I think that would be a good one for you It's good right? It is It's very good It's like not really Striving to be high art either It knows that it's being silly The whole time Alright I'll check it out Michael Keaton is terrific in this movie He's unreal And it was It made me think a lot about Our Michael Keaton Hall of Fame And He gets handed a lot of these regular art.

1:04:45And he's not a regular guy. He's like a really rich, successful art dealer. But he turns it into someone you just want to be around. I think if there's a problem in this movie, it's that he makes the character too likable. I agree. I'm just like, everything he's doing seems fine. He's supposed to be more flawed than he feels like. But he's Michael Keaton. And he's just like, he's doing good, you know? The trick of the movie is that it wouldn't work without Michael Keaton. but Michael Keaton is kind of upsetting the narrative structure because of his natural charm. Mila Kunis plays his daughter in the movie.

1:05:20Kind of stacked cast in this movie. Carmen Ejogo plays the daughter of an artist whose estate Keaton's character is pursuing. Don't spoil who the wife is. I won't. I won't. I enjoyed that. Yeah, because great. I don't want to spoil them. A late reveal. Great cold open to this movie. Very funny. I couldn't clock it. Nor could I. And then she shows up and I gasped. Yeah. Well, there are multiple wives revealed in this movie that we don't know. Oh, that's true. Also, don't spoil that one. Yeah. A couple of good ones. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't, it has a lot of the trappings of great Nancy Meyers films, of course.

1:05:57Yes. Like the production design in this movie is excellent. For me, it's even more satisfying because I'm like, if I was a rich art dealer, this is the kind of house I would have. And I lived in California, you know, Los Angeles. Incredible house. Architectural Digest will not let me sign in to my subscription in order to let you know where the house actually is. I'd like to know. I would as well and there was a piece on it but incredible production design and costume design throughout like everything just looks so good and cool. Could you imagine having twins in your 60s? No. That's a bit of a horror movie in that respect.

1:06:36Well, they're nine now and he's supposed to 64? I mean, well, I think Keaton is in his seventies IRL. So shout out to him. But so you're supposed to have twins. Listen, I can't imagine having twins, you know? So, yeah. How old was my dad when he had my sister? He was in his early fifties, maybe 50. That's fucking, that's hard. Yeah. I'm 42. Right. Everything's breaking down. No, it's true. But I, and you know, another argument of the movie that Michael Keaton doesn't really uphold is that he's not been a present dad up until this point. So maybe it wasn't his problem. What did you think about the big emotional conversation near the end with Mila Kunis?

1:07:22The one outside the hospital? Did it work for you? I have to say in general, I think that Mila Kunis is one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen. And her pregnancy styling was A plus. I needed a little bit of a better actress. Exactly. Yeah. Even. Because it's good writing. It is good writing. And it did. Hallie Meyer Shire is the daughter of two very successful directors. Charles Shire passed away at the end of last year, which is, you know, very sad in any context. Hard not to read that in this movie. But absolutely in the context of this movie. And when the. the mom character shows up and was, you know, I was like, oh, and this is the Nancy part of it, too.

1:08:11So this is fascinating. Yes. Love that part of it. So it is good writing. And again, it is like that would never happen at in real life. You know, those people would never air those grievances, but the grievances are aired in a nice way. I did have a couple notes on the performance, I would extend that to what I think is the best scene in the movie, which is the scene. So Mila Kunis's character, it will surprise literally no one to learn, does go into labor. And, you know, her dad, Michael Keaton, has to be there for her. And then the husband shows up and gives a great speech. It's a really, really, really good speech.

1:08:59And that character is framed as this sort of like the antithesis of Keaton's character where he's like a little bit more beta. He's more of a sensitive caretaker type. And, you know, he's really there for her and, you know, career second and family first. And all these things that Keaton's character views as a little modern and silly and, I don't know, soft, I guess. But. And so the baby's heart rate is going down, I think. And so Mila Kunis is like, I mean, this is one thing. She does have an epidural. You know, we're just going to get into some nitty gritty here. Okay. Sure. I think they say yes to the epidural.

1:09:40So she could like be lying there fairly placidly. I got an epidural and then I did take a nap because I needed it because I hadn't slept in 24 hours. But he gives this whole amazing, like really well-written speech. And they're cunning to Keaton, who is just like having all the feelings and losing it. And then Mila Kunis is just like lying there on the pillow, just like placid, like absolutely no reaction. She's just like smiling beatifically. And I was like, A, you're in labor, even with an epidural. And B, like some emotional stuff is happening. Maybe we could react like a little bit. And that doesn't really happen.

1:10:17But I don't care. It was good. This movie is available on Max right now. Yeah. And one thing that it had me thinking about after I saw it was I felt like I said north of 10 times, this is a movie like they used to make in 2024. And I don't know if that I kept saying that, which I think is a generally good thing, which is I think actually part of the reason why last year was not a great movie year, but was good in my mind because there were just a lot of like sixes and sevens. There were not a lot of like twos and threes, in my opinion, last year. and I think that part of it was because the studios were like quieted for a period of time so there was like less IP crap there was less like less reaching for a billion dollars and so a lot more stuff like seeped through the cracks this movie was released by Ketchup Entertainment and so I just really you know I don't love these movies as much as you do but I do really like movies like this family dramedies is a thing that are good With a stacked cast, even if we have some notes, and good writing, even if it's a little obvious at times.

1:11:25Obvious is good. You and I were raised on obvious studio movies of the 90s. There is a very strong place for them. Exactly. Also, just put Anne Hathaway in the Mila Kunis part. Tell me how much better this movie is. It's definitely better, but I think she would probably go a little too hard with the labor scene and the crying. Go for it, Annie. It's like somewhere in the middle. Also, by the way, a C-section in that situation is okay. It happened to me. We don't need to talk someone out of a C-section. Okay. Two healthy kids. Okay. But I just, I don't want people to feel bad. You know, it was set up as like some sort of disaster and it's okay.

1:12:05I think Anne Hathaway would be a lot. I don't know if she also like meets Michael Keaton's energy where. I think there would be fireworks. I think they would be electrifying. That would be fine with me. Michael Keaton. So he had Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice last year. Did he hit something else too? Didn't his movie, Knox Goes Away, come out? Oh, Knox Goes Away. Yeah, Knox Goes Away. The legendary Knox Goes Away. That wasn't ideal. But he's back. He was great in Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice too. Yeah, he's a wonderful actor. I'm a big fan. I'm happy for you. Great sweaters, great everything in this nice gallery space.

1:12:41Yeah, early 60s style. Yeah. I got to get into that. I got to start thinking about that. now that I'm like out of having a baby I'm like maybe I should start buying clothes again yeah because you just don't need to buy any clothes when you just have a baby it's just like here's avocado all over your shirt yeah I mean the amount of stuff that that was on my shirt yesterday at the end of the day at 7pm that was tough yeah you're in the thick of it yeah anything you want to say about September 5 really quick a great procedural yeah I think this movie slipped into a little bit of um discourse wars and there's obviously a reason for that because of the events that are portrayed in the movie.

1:13:20I saw the movie very clearly as like people obsessed with people doing things. There's like a Sorkinian quality to this. There's like a David Fincher quality to this. When I talked to Steven Soderbergh on the show, he was like, I love this movie. I had no notes which is a great conversation. Thank you to Steven for saying my first name. Also, did you cut that out and like put it in a little box somewhere on your phone? I had a nice moment. But like, this is definitely like a Soderbergh movie too right of just like we gotta do it like it's all about action and then considering the effects of the action later so yes and there are some damaging effects I thought that the movie did a pretty good job of showing that cavalier action yes this is not a movie about perfection and execution it's a movie about people who are ill-equipped trying their best and at times failing to do the right thing so I thought pretty nifty movie I did compare it on Letterboxd to an HBO original movie, which people think is meant to be a dig and is not a dig.

1:14:21There was a time in the 90s when every Saturday night, there would be a new, maybe it was Friday nights. I can't remember when the original movie aired. I think maybe it was Friday nights where it would be like, Ving Rhames is Don King. Just two hours of Ving Rhames doing Don King. It was tremendously entertaining. It didn't quite feel like going to the movies, but it was good. And this movie is the same. Okay. Let's go to my conversation now with Tim Felbaum, the director of September 5.

1:15:03Very excited to have Tim Felbaum here. We're here to talk about September 5. Tim, I'm curious where this movie came from for you. Were you even alive when the events that took place in the movie happened? Sean, look at me. You look like a beautiful young man. No, I'm kidding. No, I wasn't alive. Yeah, I was born 10 years after. So no, jokes aside. Yes, I first learned about what happened on that day in Munich from a documentary that I saw as a teenager in the theaters. I don't know, maybe you've seen it. It's called One Day in September by Kevin McDonald. And this on many levels had a huge impact on me.

1:15:42And in addition to that, I studied in Munich. I went to film school in Munich. I was born and raised in Switzerland, but after that, I went to film school in Munich. And in Munich, even after all these years, the story still feels quite present. It's like the buildings where it happened are today's student housings. And we would always... It's a very special architect that the Olympic Village has. And there were many student films that we would shoot there. And you would always know, like, this is the apartment where this tragedy happened. This is the balcony where that image has been taken, that image that everybody knows of the masked person stepping out on a balcony.

1:16:23And I was always interested in that story and especially in that image. So after my two previous movies, we started to do research on that day. And what we then in that process learned more and more is what an important role the media played. And as we got deeper into that field or into that direction of the research, we were lucky enough to find an eyewitness that is Jeffrey Mason. That is the character played in the movie by John Magaro. And he was there in this control room during this 22-hour marathon of broadcasting when this group of sports journalists, right? That's a special thing. they were a few hours before they were reporting on the Olympics on actually US swim star Mark Spitz swimming to his seventh gold medal.

1:17:11And a few hours later, they had to make the switch to reporting on a crisis. And yeah, that was the initial spark for us to tell the story, that conversation, to tell the story entirely from that perspective. How did you stumble upon Jeff Mason, you know, and make your way to him? And did he become the POV character because of your access to him? I would say yes. I mean, I have to add, though, that he's also a combination of certain roles that in reality, and he also, for him, it's really important that we mention that because he wants to be respectful of his colleagues, that in real life, these were several people doing that job.

1:17:51Of course, we took there an artistic license to combine certain characters. But I mean, he was essential in the project in many ways. Basically, the script is based a lot on his memories of what they experienced in a control room. He helped us to be authentic with the dialogue. And he was also crucial when we then finally could approach or get the copyrights for the archival footage, which was not easy, but for us was essential that we could actually use some real footage. Yeah, I do want to ask you about the blending and where you chose to recreate versus where you chose to use archival. But maybe before that, you can talk a little bit about how you thought about shooting and pacing the film.

1:18:35You know, it's a very short period of time that you're capturing, but it's not all in real time, the entire film. So how did you think about structuring it? Then the movie would be 22 hours long. I like a good 90 minutes movie. But yeah, it's a good question. It's like, I would say, again, I would go back to that conversation that we had with Jeffrey Mason. And when we asked him how this day felt for him, he said it was just a constant adrenaline rush. And all the decisions they made were against a ticking clock. And I don't know if you ever visited these live television studios. I've been in, when doing research, I went to a lot of sports broadcast rooms, control rooms.

1:19:19And everything is clocked to the minute. So you can only imagine what it means when they do suddenly report on a tragedy like this. So to me, or to us, that was clear. Okay, this is also how the movie should feel. And you are in that rush and the reflection only comes afterwards. And then, so that is already, in a way, the basic structure of the script is already there. But then also when you shoot it, we had the same approach. We wanted to basically, we had this idea of just covering Marcus Ferdo, the DP and I, of just covering it as if we ourselves would be a broadcast crew in the room observing these people, observing that situation on the monitors.

1:20:03We just shot very much in documentary style also. And this is a nice thing because then you have these moments that feel authentic or real. But on the other hand, you create a lot of footage. and this is where editing comes into play or is like a really important part then on shaping the movie. I think the editor Hans-Jörg Weisbrich has an enormous, it had an enormous influence on the whole rhythm and everything. But ironically, it was more about, it was tougher to find the quiet moments where for a moment, the emotions kick in or so than to find the tense moment because the tension was there all the time.

1:20:41Yeah, I love the balance between the conversations that can be had in the control room and the conversations that need to be had in the hallway too and that this was not a space that was designed to cover this kind of coverage of an event, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you talk about why you felt the story resonated now and why you thought it was important to do it some 50 plus years later? Oh yeah, again, to me, I mean, there's so many aspects of that day that are relevant, especially also for today. One, of course, is the ongoing crisis that is tragically not solved yet between Israel and Pastheim.

1:21:20But our movie is about the media perspective. And this also seems to be a very, especially from today's point of view, a very relevant question. I mean, today, everybody here has a camera and a TV in their pocket. And we are surrounded by a rapidly fast, like a rapidly evolving media landscape. I myself know that sometimes I'm overwhelmed, like where to get my information from. And we thought that especially for today's audience, it would be interesting to take a step back and see on how a little bit more than 50 years ago, an event of this nature was covered for the first time in live television.

1:21:58And it is in a way about this moment that the media changed. I want to add one thing maybe that even before this tragedy happened, it might be interesting to know, this Olympics 72 in Munich have been an absolute turning point in media history because it was the first Olympics on German soil since 36, which was misused for fascist propaganda. and now Germany wanted to send out a new image out to the world, the image of the liberal Germany. That's also why they didn't want to have any armed police in the village, which we now know was a mistake. And for sending out that image, they have set up an never-before-seen technical apparatus.

1:22:45It was also the first Olympics that could be broadcast live globally by satellite. and they had everything was set up for optimal TV coverage, the venues, they had this Olympic camera on the Olympic Tower that they could have access to. And then suddenly that whole apparatus switched from reporting on the, as the Germans called it, the serene games. They wanted to almost have a Woodstock hippie-esque vibe to it. And then this whole media apparatus had to, or made the switch to report on this crisis. It's fascinating. I'm curious about your decision to make a movie like this too, because it feels very different from the previous films that you've made in a docudrama like this.

1:23:29And I wasn't familiar with your work before I saw the movie. And so I'm curious how you came to something like this. Yeah. Yeah, so very much see where that question is coming from. My two previous movies were in a way in a sci-fi area or post-apocalyptic films. I want to add though that I had a similar approach already I mean maybe you haven't seen them September 5 I would say is the best one so far I can say I took a look at Tides but I hadn't seen it before until after our social time but you should maybe check out the first one the first one is about 13 years ago and is about climate change a long time before it was an everyday topic in newspaper And in both of these films, even though there are these futuristic scenarios, they also had the same approach to how to shoot them in this documentary style.

1:24:24I said, I want to have an almost European arthouse feeling to a genre movie. So there are many similarities. But, of course, when approaching a story of this historic relevance, I mean, when you do science fiction, you also do research a lot, right? But when you do something that is so important and people really lost their lives, and it's, yeah, you do much more research before you even start to write a single bit. And that's what I also enjoyed. I mean, enjoyed might be the wrong word in that sad context, but the whole research process, that was really something that I found very interesting.

1:25:02And especially then as we got deeper and deeper into that perspective, That was something that I learned from making this film in a way that the more specific you are with your perspective, the more you can also, I don't know. I also hope that in a way the audience also when watching the movie that you learn something about making television back in that analog world. And that hopefully you find that fascinating. I absolutely did. One thing that was interesting to me too as a viewer was, you know, Peter Jennings is a staple of my childhood. he is the newscaster who was on in my home uh i'm in my 40s um but he was just he was just on hosting world news tonight every day in my house for many many years and so you know he's just a very familiar figure but so you have this this interesting choice you've made where you've got some well-known real world people who you are casting as actors and then you have the you know mckay style figures who you're only using archivals maybe you can talk about that balancing that as well.

1:26:02Of course, I would love to talk about this. First of all, Peter Jennings. Yeah, it's like Peter Jennings also did live coverage of as you know, I see you're nodding, of 9-11 for I think 48 hours or so he was in the studio. And there's an interview that I saw with him once when he was asked how he could go through with this. And he just said well, very simple answer. I've been in Munich 72. That has been in a way his training day. And In a way, it's a good question, your question, because Peter Jennings in our movie is being recreated with an actor, right? While Jim McKay isn't. And there's a reason for that, because in a way, our movie is a movie about the people behind the camera.

1:26:47But Peter Jennings has a very special role in that team because Peter Jennings was the only moderator coming from ABC News. He was invited by Rune Arledge. He said, come to Munich. He was the Middle East expert for ABC News. And he was invited by Rune Arledge. Hey, come to Munich. Take a vacation from your Middle East job and do some pieces for us. So he did these pieces, for example, on Dachau, the concentration camp, as we show it in our movie. And then suddenly, as he says it also in the movie, ironically, he ends up being more close to the conflict than ever before. in his career, in his function as the Middle East expert.

1:27:36And then also since the special thing about a movie is that it is a sports crew that has to make the switch. You know, they were not experienced or trained in reporting on a situation like this. So the one person that is coming from news and is warning them maybe about, for example, the use of certain words or something, as we show it in the film, should be a character in the movie. while Jim McKay is of course the face of that whole broadcast and to us while we recreated and we actually did recreate a lot of the archival footage I hope it's seamless and you don't see it but we for example didn't want to show and out of respect didn't want to show anyone who really lost their life on that day and we shot a lot of these scenes but what I really figured what we could never recreate is the human element of Tim McKay's performance.

1:28:27It's just a very unique way of how he talked into the camera. And so I said like this, we absolutely have to get the rights and have to be able to use. It works really effectively. And I'm curious to hear you talk about John McGarrow. Like I've said that John McGarrow is my favorite working actor like a couple of times in the show in the past. He's somebody that like, he kind of improves every movie. I'll tell him that. I see him. Well, I was delighted to see him at the center of your movie. He really is the engine of it, especially in the second half. But you haven't made any American productions or American stories.

1:29:09How did you go about casting this and how did you end up with this, especially the quartet of actors who are at the center of the movie? Yes, that's a very good question. Because for European productions, sometimes it's maybe not easy to get. a US cast but for me of course it was crucial that it is in a way even though this story takes place in Germany it is also an American story it is told from an American point of view and yeah I would say like in Germany I'm established enough name so that I can call an actress of the level of Leonie Benesch and she's interested in having a conversation so internationally maybe not so much and we had also a hard time to approach the cast and then we were lucky enough that what made the change here is that Sean Penn, John Wildermuth and John Palmer came on board with their company Projector Picture Works as partners.

1:30:09They were actually really early on in the process involved and were essential collaborators on everything. They're already on the script stage. but what they in addition to that also helped with casting like you can imagine maybe when you can write an email with a film produced by Sean Penn it helps to get you an answer faster because he's a very well respected name especially in the actor's world Were there any other POV characters that you thought about including you mentioned that you compressed some into the Jeff character how did you think about having too many voices in those conversations to effectively tell it?

1:30:47That's an interesting question. Yeah, we had some. I can give you an example. So, Sean McManus, who is the son of Tim McKay, who I was lucky enough to meet at one of these control rooms and who also was kind enough to share his memories of these Olympics because he was there as a teenager, right? His father was hosting the cameras. and at a certain point we also made him as a character him his the teenager whose father is more in the studio and just as much as i would have loved the movie to also be sean mcmahon as a part of it it felt too private in a way you know this is a movie about their people in their working environment and so it didn't feel appropriate to the biggest subject in a way So that's why we then, as you say, so that we stay focused on the major subject and on not too many characters.

1:31:43We decided to not go further with this character. But he saw the movie recently for the first time in New York. And he was really proud. He saw it with his son. And that was really touching because after screening, he turned to his son and said, wow, your grandfather. Like Tim McKay. And that was quite a moment. Well, that's fascinating, too, because he has had he had such an esteemed career at CBS and working in news and in sports. And, you know, they have a lineage there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm impressed by how much you know. But it's like he actually is the only person like Ruhnolich was the first person to be the head of the news and the sports organization, news organization.

1:32:29and Rune Alic writes in his biography he would have never gotten that other job if his training day was also Munich where he proved for ABC that he could handle news. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the company where I work, we cover film and television, but we also cover sports. And so somebody like Rune is like a legendary figure and somebody that we know a lot about. And, you know, that the closeness of sports and news and the fact that even though the teams weren't prepared to do that work. And actually, you know, I like how you show how they make mistakes, like meaningful reporting mistakes during the telling of the story.

1:33:04But that is something that happens in the process of reporting sometimes. Oh, all the time. And again, I'm getting back to also this was an unprecedented situation. They didn't expect that. But in addition to that, I want to say that a lot of people that work in today's news business, live television, have seen the movie now. And they came up to me after the screening. I said to me, that was so astonishing for them to see that while obviously technology is completely different, everything is faster. There's even more that you have to deal with in a way. But the bigger questions are exactly the same today.

1:33:39What they're discussing, like what can we show? What can't we show? How many confirmed sources do we need to have before we send something out? Yeah. Do we show violence? Like all these questions, that's still the same discussions today. It's really powerful. One thing I'm sure you feel very comfortable with, but I'm curious to hear you talk about is creating a sense of authenticity of Germany at this time. And maybe what Germany was like and, you know, the intersection between these American visitors who are making TV and, you know, the people of the country and even just the atmosphere of the country at that time.

1:34:19No, that's a very important aspect of the movie. I mean, one we just talked about that Germany that was wanted to have this image change of being the new liberal Germany. So it was really an important event, these Olympics. It was Germany's makeover, so to say. And of course, for us, it was essential that we have this in a movie. because, yeah, it's just such an important part of the premise when this story takes place, also that it's so close to World War II. But then we knew, okay, our film only takes place inside that studio. How do we get that part of the story into our setting, so to say?

1:35:08And the answer to that is the character of Leonie Benesch, Mariana Gebhardt. So she represents this new generation that tries to free themselves from the past. And her character represents that whole aspect of the story. Congratulations on your Golden Globe nomination. Is this very strange for you? You're now thrust into an awards race. You have a big American film. It's getting released in lots of theaters. Tell me about how you're feeling. Oh, it's overwhelming. yeah in a very positive way i i gotta say like i mean i told you a little bit on how we started this movie we would have never thought that this this journey that we would make one time and and yesterday morning that was really special we were here with my dear producers thomas vupka and um uh john palmer and the other producers were in the in the zoom and yeah we we we couldn't believe it when we heard it and it was uh really special what do you think this means for your career like Do you know what you're going to do next?

1:36:09No, I don't know. I think, I mean, I have certain ideas. Well, I think it certainly helps. It's the right story. Of course, it doesn't help to find the right story. That's still your... But it would probably make it... Yeah, it would probably help for me to get my next project. I want to go behind the camera as fast as possible again. So, yeah. Have you considered an American production, a German production, European? Is it a desire to make Hollywood films? Yeah, I mean, I would lie if that was not a dream as when I was a kid. I mean, I'm a movie geek. I love movies more than anything. And it's like, of course, that was a kid's dream always to make once a home film here in Hollywood.

1:37:00But now I see it's all about the story, right? The story has to come from it. So that's the most important criteria on what movie to make next. And this can be a story that's coming from here. Or I also have to say, this was the third movie I did in a similar constellation with producer, DP, production designer, or line producer. We are, like what I would say, my film family. And I also like that, enjoyed very much working at Constellation and could just as well see to do another movie. And that's this wonderful Constellation. Very cool. Tim, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen?

1:37:44Have you seen anything great recently? Oh, yes, absolutely. Well, and then I would go with the movie of my dear colleague, Edward Bear Concliffe. Yes. So you must know Edward. Yes, yes, yes. He was really kind. He called me after he got also nominated. And so, yes, that's the one. What did you like about Conclave? Oh, I have to really say Edward Berger's work, The Direction. It was so wonderfully made. In a way, also, there's similarity because it's also in that microcosmos and how he portrays that world of the Vatican itself. And so also that specific viewpoint and how we portrayed that world and the whole visual approach and music also really good.

1:38:32So, yes. It's a great recommendation. Tim, congratulations. I really enjoyed September 5. Nice talking to you. Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad you enjoyed it. And it was great talking to you. Yes. Thank you.

1:38:48Thanks to Tim Feldbaum. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Later this week, it's sort of an Amanda special. Sort of. So there's... Well, so here's the thing. Garbage rom-com and garbage love are different. I totally agree with this. So garbage rom-com is where I eat, you know? Yes, yes. And garbage love is just a thing that we experience every year around this time as people try to program for Valentine's Day. Garbage love is using a love story with a genre package, basically. It can be any kind of genre, really, but it needs to be a romance inside of a movie that is otherwise appealing to audiences.

1:39:34that like action movies, comedies, like broad comedies, sci-fi, horror, any of those things. So this week we'll talk about Companion. We'll talk about You're Cordially Invited, which is on Amazon right now. We'll talk about Love Me. Maybe we'll talk about Love Hurts if I see it. Yeah. Anything else? What else is coming out? There's another movie. Oh, Heart Eyes. I saw that. Right. And then we'll make a list. We'll make a list of 10 great or essential examples of garbage love. You ready? I mean, I really am. Okay. I'm looking forward to it. I might let you drive. Oh, okay. That's exciting. Great.

1:40:15We'll see you then.