The 10 Best Movies at the Telluride and Venice Film Festivals. Plus: Nathan Fielder’s Stunning Elizabeth Holmes Doc.

22:28Sean Fennessey:It is, but it is unique. I mean, it's a Nathan Fielder project. Like, it's not inherently mega commercial. But what it is, is it's something new in the mix. And something that I had texted you, and that you and I have been talking about for months, is that it's so weird how it seems like, for the most part, the awards calendar and our expectations of what's coming feels hugely settled right now, with the exception of like two or three movies. Like I said to you, Digger and Dune are two movies that nobody has seen. maybe werewolf, but probably not. But everything else, we kind of know what it is.

23:04Sean Fennessey:I guess you could put artificial on that list. A handful of movies are yet to be seen. But this was the first thing in a while where I was like, oh, this could upend some of our expectations of what's happening this season. I don't know. I mean, from afar, do you have any thoughts on it? I mean, I think we were also hungry for that, right? Is that we even, we went into the festivals and we identified, you know, okay, this premiere, this premiere, this will get this slot, this slot. And for the most part, we'll talk about them individually, but the films met our expectations. And so you're kind of assigning everything, doing your little draft board.

23:41And it's clear, but I think it's been confusing and also just a little narratively frustrating to us. Like we have six months of a show to do and we already know everything. Like what? You got to give us something else. It's like, give me a fall, give me a fall thing. So that's the genius of a surprise drop.

23:59Sean Fennessey:It is. And that actually kind of speaks to a little bit of the vibe for me personally at Telluride, which I think is quite different from other people. So because we had the chance to go to the Cannes Film Festival this year, roughly 40 % of the slate at Telluride I had already seen. And so it created a different kind of experience for me where I didn't see as many movies as I usually do. The timing didn't work for as many things. And there were frequently times when I would look at the calendar and be like, seen that, seen that, seen that, seen that. and then not really have anything to do, which...

24:26Sean Fennessey:What did you do? I hung out with friends, had a meal. I don't usually eat a lot of meals, so I had some meals. Thank you, yes. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. I also was sick the entire weekend, which was not ideal, but I powered through. I kept my head up. Anyhow, because of that, I think that it was a very, very good Telluride. Like, if you came into the festival, like almost everyone there, not having seen Club Kid or Fjord or La Bola Negra or Minotaur or the huge number of canned titles that came over. Yeah. I mean, I would say specifically Club Kid and La Bolanegra played huge at the festival.

25:01Sean Fennessey:People loved both of them. And I'm not super surprised by that, but it was clear that those movies are going to have a life after this. Yeah, it's Club Kid season already. Yeah. And I saw Jordan Firstman and Alex Coco in the airport before we got on the plane to go. And we were talking and they were like, oh, I feel like people are forgetting about the movie. And I was like, you're going to be fine. Nope. You're going to be fine. You're going to be fine. Don't worry, guys. People are going to see the movie. They're going to love the movie. They had Reggie, the young actor who plays the kid in the movie.

25:29Sean Fennessey:I know. He was there. He was doing great. So his Instagram account is still managed by his parents, but they did a reel of like his highlights at Telluride. It's great. Great stuff. Can't wait. He was charming, everybody. So the vibe there was good. I mean, you know, we can get into the new movies. Like you said, we have a lot of crossover for some of the films that played at the festival. But in general, I thought the vibe was good. The weather was very good. Everyone seemed happy. It's my happiest place on earth. I thought it was, at the end of this year, despite being really sick, I was like, I will come here until I die.

26:01Sean Fennessey:Like, this is a thing that I just want to be a part of my life. I know, remember like a week ago when you suggested that we switch places at some point? No, no, no. You're never going to do that. I also, I mean, listen, I have this on lock now and I'm really proud of myself, but I've thought about just how much you would be weeping and bitching like everywhere I've gone. this festival. Well, you're stronger than I am. Yeah, I am. And you know, you don't, the lines are not a thing here. Instead you have spritzes. So that's really nice or go on a boat. But you would hate the boat. Do you get seasick?

26:34Sean Fennessey:No, no. I grew up on Long Island. Seasick, what are you talking about? I grew up on boats. It's an island. It is an island, but you don't really take the boat to go anywhere else. I took a boat to school every morning, Six hours across the Long Island Sound. Congratulations. So I guess the last thing I'll say about just the general mood and atmosphere is I think, I do think that the Odyssey like put a little bit of a dent in some of the vibe, which was for like the Oscar stuff that you're describing. But in a good way where it was sort of like, let's just enjoy what we have here instead of it being like a series of conversations.

27:18Sean Fennessey:Because, you know, there are a lot of awards pundits at the festival. There are a lot of people who spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff and strategizing that six-month calendar from this point forward. We do plenty of it on the show. But it became more of a like, did you like it or did you not like it? And there were a couple of titles like Elsinore, for example, where it was like kind of the only conversation about it is, is Andrew Scott a best actor contender? But not really a lot of movies led with that, which I was grateful for, at least for me. And also just that having gone there now, I think eight or nine years, I have a lot of friends there.

27:51Sean Fennessey:Like you said, you said you have your Venice friends. And made new ones too, which is really fun. Yeah, so it's great. And I met so many young people in the student symposium, just like young people in their 20s who were just like, this was my big splurge for the year. I heard you talk about it on the show. I really wanted to be here. Every person there is so fucking nice. Like it's just the most pleasant, convivial, sincere collection of movie nerds. So once again, I had a wonderful time. What was the actual vibe like in Venice? So I think last year I mentioned that it was pretty... Last year was very oversubscribed.

28:28And it seemed like none of the logistics were in place. And there were too many people and not enough boats and not enough spaces at a festival where you really do have to have the logistics nailed down because you can't just walk everywhere. Like you do have to take a boat. The Lido is its own island separate from like the Venice that you see on postcards. So this year, I'm happy to say, and I wonder if it's because this year was also the Art Biennale, which is only every other year. Right.

29:02Sean Fennessey:And you You had been there when that was happening before, right? No. You know what? This is my first year. The other two years I've been on the off years. Oh, okay. And so the Biennale, the openings and all the big part of the festival happens, I think, in May or June. Earlier in the summer, but the pavilions are still open. And so it seems like the infrastructure is just kind of held over and in place. And so it's been it's been a fun vibe. I think there were slightly lower expectations movie wise because the lineup was, you know, most of the big Hollywood expected movies were not on the lineup.

29:45And so, you know, I heard of a couple of journalists who even switched from Venice to Telluride because they couldn't justify it. But with low expectations comes, you know, the possibility to have a lot of fun. and to see movies you like. And then, you know, it just wasn't as stressful this year. It was everyone just kind of rolling in and out of stuff. I have also met a lot of young people who, and a lot of Italian young people who apparently listened to the big picture. Ciao. And then, ciao! And made their way here. So that's very fun. And then Saturday was really fun. Saturday was a jam because everyone, as soon as the schedule was released, We all identified, okay, primetime has a 5 p.m.

30:33Saturday premiere. And that's like, that is in fact primetime at Venice. And there's, that's also kind of like, that's not going to tell you right. Probably. So because of the way the schedule works, Saturday is too late to get over tell you right in time.

30:53Sean Fennessey:So you're like, this is our centerpiece event. This is going to be it. And Pattinson will probably be there and they'll use his star power and you can just kind of like feel it going. And so, you know, 5 p.m. on Saturday also leaves time for a great A24 party, which definitely happened. And then I realized also that Oasis, Don't Look Back in Anger, the documentary about the recent tour, was premiering afterwards. I was like, oh, my God, they're going to get Liam and Noel. So I did not. I only went to the primetime premiere, which I had a great time at. And then listen, parties remain unmatched.

31:28Thank you guys so much for everything that you do.

31:31Sean Fennessey:Are you thinking parties as a concept right now? What are you? I'm thinking of the A24 parties as a concept. And like I said, I met Lance Oppenheim's entire family. They were like, we haven't slept in a week. We were so nervous. They were so sweet. So that was really fun. And I had seen, so I didn't go to the Oasis premiere, but I did see it in the morning. I did start crying. at like 8.45 in the morning while singing at the top of my lungs along to this concert. Were people singing along in the movie? Not really, but I was. Okay. That sounds kind of obnoxious if you were the only person singing along.

32:07At a very low volume. Like I wasn't like up there waving my phone doing Don't Look Back in Anger. Like what are we talking about? I was just kind of, you know, I was having a good time. I was in the moment of this very wonderful documentary. Okay. And so as we left the Lido on Saturday night to go to our party, like the Oasis premiere people were arriving. And I didn't see Liam and Noel arrive on their water taxi as I had a few hours before, but it was convivial. It was like, this is the place to be for about six or seven hours.

32:42Sean Fennessey:It seemed in the photos that they were warm to one another. They seemed to have embraced each other. yeah well one of the most moving things of the documentary because it's um it's the whole tour and so it's you know they filmed every show and it's just the montages of every single time they walked on stage liam grabbing noel's hand and holding it up and i'm holding hands together and the the the rediscovered if not love i mean love yes the way that they express love of this movie is so moving it was incredible that's great i can't believe it i'm supposed to see it this week i'm looking forward to it it's i mean it's a delightful time so yeah they're in decent spirits i mean not decent enough to get noel to like wear real pants instead of jeans but whatever it's a noel move you are the noel i'm the liam it's just how life goes yeah i'm very proud of that fact um so it was a good vibe is what you would say yeah it was good and it was a fun vibe Now everyone's like, why are we still here?

33:42And why are we seeing like junkie movies? I saw two movies this morning in competition that we don't really need to talk about on this podcast. Oh, wow.

33:49Sean Fennessey:Interesting. We won't even know their names. I mean, we can. They're a company directed by Casey Affleck and Bunker directed by Florian Zeller starring Javier Bardem and Penelope Cruz. Well, it's good to know that those were not successful in your opinion. Yeah. I mean, it's a beautiful home in Bunker. It's like a really, really great home. I am a Florian Zeller denier. I have never really, I've never really understood. And I was thinking about you and the sun, like 30 minutes into this movie, I was like, no, this is, we just, we don't got it. There are a couple interesting scenes, but I thought it was silly and inept.

34:27So.

34:28Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I mean, that's, I think that speaks to the film festival experience, which is you go in knowing there's probably gonna be two or three things you're gonna love. You go, there's two or three things you know you have to see that are like, it's part of the reason you went. And then a lot of it is a coin flip. You know, a lot of it is we don't really know which way this is going to break. And so there is a lot of risk taking that comes into it. And a lot of, do you have the same kind of schedule time management? Because I see that you're seeing like two, maybe three movies a day. When I'm really going hard at a film festival, I'm trying to see four and maybe even sometimes five if I'm really crazy.

35:00Sean Fennessey:This year, I only saw four on one day, but the schedule stack strategy is challenging at Telluride to make sure that you get to see what you want. And I miss some stuff this year that I regret missing. How is that for you at Venice? Well, it's really, really hard to do four in a day. I did three in a day, and that was from begging a lot of publicists to get me tickets to premieres, because the way it works here is there are press screenings, there are market screenings, and then there are public screenings and premieres that are also open to the public, which is cool. So you can get you can buy a ticket and roll up to the Oasis Don't Look Back in Anger premiere, which I just I'm excited for all of those.

35:44Sean Fennessey:And your seat is reserved. In the premieres, yes. Yeah. You get an assigned seat. And so and, you know, the press screenings work differently, but they they only show three press movies a day. They parcel them out over the course of the festival. And so, you know, they'll do two press screenings on premiere day for each movie. And then there will be like one makeup at a later date. But then everything else is public. And so you're competing with other people and it's hard to get tickets. And there is a ticketing platform, a la the Cannes ticketing platform that I'm sure you still have nightmares about.

36:21And so it's hard to make the schedule work where you can get four every day.

36:28Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And then when you add in the logistics of it, it's hard to stay on the Lido because it's a small island with not that much accommodation. So the getting back and forth to it with the boats, you know, stacking three is the sign of a good day. Yeah, that sounds challenging. I mean, one of the wonderful things about Telluride is just the conquerability of it. You know, the fact that it is essentially seven or eight theaters that are spread across this small town. and you can walk roughly three quarters of a mile all the way across town and just make it and bounce. And for example, on Saturday, I saw four movies and none of them were in the same theater.

37:09Sean Fennessey:So I was constantly walking back and forth. And sure, I got 15 ,000 steps that day, but it was totally manageable and not that hard. And still giving yourself time to eat and wait in line for the appropriate amount of time that you needed to. And so - Are you eating in line? sometimes if you're down at the Herzog they have a hot dog stand so it's like very efficient to just grab a Gatorade and a hot dog just power up get some protein get in a movie but uh that's like the best you can do there's a pizza there's a pizza place in Telluride called Brown Dog Pizza which is like a great pizza place but you would think that it's like Spago in 1984 like it is like just full of people the line is like it's like a two hour wait to get a seat at a pizzeria but there aren't like official like cantinas or like pop-up places Not really.

37:54Sean Fennessey:I mean, it's such an unincorporated town, you know? Like, you can't bring in the big businesses. There's no sponsors like that. Oh, right. I guess they're the sponsors. Because listen, here's the thing. You can get a spritz and some potato chips literally anywhere. I snuck one into part two of Musk last night. Oh, wow. And the potato chips come... I mean, it was four hours long. Yeah. And like part two was Trump and Twitter. So I was like, I'm going to have a spritz for this. So you can bring like a drink into the screenings? No, I poured it into a water bottle. Okay. It was like teenage behavior.

38:26But like, do you understand?

38:28Sean Fennessey:A Poland Spring vodka screwdriver? Wow. So it was like day seven. I'm still in Venice because they spread the movies out. So you're still in Venice. I'm homesick. And I have to watch two more hours of Musk, Trump and Twitter. And I was like, I'm going to have a spritz. The spritz also no gin. So this is kind of, this has been my trick. this festival. But yeah, that part's amazing. Just everywhere you go. They're like, here. And the potato chips just come with the drink. Yeah, because I was sick, there was zero alcohol consumption over the weekend, which is probably a good thing, honestly. But yeah, I'm trying to think of what else I should share that is notable from Telluride before we get into the movies themselves.

39:13Do you hike?

39:16Sean Fennessey:I don't usually have time. I'm not averse to it at all. Part of the interesting thing, I was just posting photos on Instagram. It's just like you are in the middle of town. You are surrounded by epic natural beauty. I mean, the town is surrounded on both sides by two mountain ranges, and there are rivers wherever you walk. And so you are really in the heart of what you would go hike to seek. You know what I mean? It's not like you have to go to find it. Now, there is an entire part of the festival that happens on top of the mountain where you take a gondola up. And there are two theaters up there now.

39:50Sean Fennessey:One of them is called the Chuck Jones Cinema, and they added a second one this year called the Marvin. And I don't usually go up there. But if you go up there, there's a large hotel up there where a lot of the celebrities and filmmakers stay. Oh, interesting. And it sort of splits the festival in two. I don't like the theater as much on top of the mountain, so I try to avoid it as much as possible. But there are a lot of people who spend most of their time up there. And up there, there's also lots of hiking and cycling, and you can go fishing. And there's a lot of things you can do. so a lot and that's the funny thing too is when you're there there are a lot of people who just live there or who are just visiting the town to hang out with no intention of seeing any movies because there's parties and restaurants i mean yeah same here yeah so even though it is not you know a world famous global capital like venice it still is like drawing a lot of i i guess like looky loose for lack of a better word you know just like regular folk who are like i'm gonna to see what's going on in this town this weekend.

40:46Sean Fennessey:So it's an interesting collection of people that are attending as opposed to like when you're at the New York Film Festival and you're like, okay, well, these people are here just to go to the screening at the Lincoln Center, you know? Yeah, I mean, that's fun about it. There are also people who seem to come here just to be adjacent to the festival, you know? And so, and by people, I mean like companies and also there are art exhibits and there are parties and there are, you know, pop-ups and all sorts of stuff. So it's, I mean, it's a lot, but it's pretty great. I agree. We're very lucky to be able to go do this.

41:20Sean Fennessey:So let's tell people about the movies because that's what they really want to hear about. It's interesting the amount of overlap that we have on our list, especially right at the top. Yeah. So you got the movie Ink and then I got the movie Ink. Yes. And Ink is the new movie from Danny Boyle. It is a portrait of Larry Lamb, who was an enterprising Fleet Street British newspaper editor in the 70s and 80s. And he, thanks to the financial capital and encouragement of one Rupert Murdoch, helped to redefine journalism in England. and perhaps as the film makes a point 100 ,000 times over the course of two hours changed the very nature of our media and interactive culture.

42:16It makes the point and also, well, yes, it makes that point. And then also somehow doesn't totally land it, but that's okay.

42:23Sean Fennessey:Yeah, so you and I both have this movie in the number five slot, which I find to be really interesting because we're both big Danny Boyle fans. Yeah. We love 28 Years Later. We talked about why he hasn't been on the show, before and you know like what his career means and all this this is a movie that makes a ton of sense for him on paper and i found it to be incredibly engaging and entertaining it was like very energetic from the opening moments when when the sprint song hits and you know after this wonderful sequence between jack o 'connell and guy pierce who play lamb and murdoch at a dinner table i was like boom we're in like a flying danny boyle movie i was pumped and i but But I will say by the time we got to the end of the movie and some of the decisions that were made, I was like, sir, we know, you know, like we do.

43:11Sean Fennessey:We do know. And also and there's one specific decision that you're talking about that I'm like, sir, this movie didn't earn that. Yeah, totally. I know you wanted it to. And I don't know whether that's the source material or whether the script or just pulled back a little bit. So I completely agree. I think it's good. Not great. I think the review I gave to a friend of ours was, I also used the word incredibly engaging, really loud music, everyone looks handsome. Yes. And I would like to say right now that it is not too late for Jack O 'Connell to test for James Bond. It is not too late. This man wears a tux in the movie and he can wear the tux.

43:51Sean Fennessey:Okay. I have some complicated feelings about him right now. Because one, he's like, he's a freight train as an actor. He is like so charismatic and locked in, but he's in a little bit of a dangerous area that I'll call the Nick Cage zone, where he's like really big all the time now. And there are very few moments of quiet reflection happening in any of his performances. And maybe that's the kind of film performances he wants to give. But, you know, this film, 28 years later, The Bone Temple, Sinners, Back to Black, Ferrari. Like these are the last few movies he's made, many of which are good movies or interesting and his performances are good, but they are high octane, like mega performances.

44:33Sean Fennessey:And he's, he's on a precipice here. I'm not encouraging him to like make a quiet chamber piece or anything, but there were times when I was like, we, this is really cranked hard. Well, the whole movie is cranked. It is. It is like, and the whole movie is cranked hard just like as a and as an aesthetic and energetic strategy as to make up for the fact that it's like people in rooms talking about printing things on paper without you know a smoking gun really right I mean and even the smoking guns which there's some things in this moment where I'm like is this real did this really happen well like what for example what what what what strained credulity no no not in that way I was just like I can't believe this is happening and I assume that this is real and this is pretty gripping.

45:22So, I mean, there are stories within it and stories that they cover. Like, it's really good. I just, there's something, I think it doesn't totally land the plane and that we want it to, you know, coming out, the comparisons were, it has a little bit of social network and it has a lot of Wolf of Wall Street, but like, it's not in a league with either of those movies. I agree. It has the blueprint and is doing a lot of the things, which means that I really like it. but it's, it is much like Jack O 'Connell's performance going big, just as much as possible to, to just try to hold your attention rather than like offering any sort of nuance.

46:01Yeah.

46:02Sean Fennessey:I think we're on the exact same page. Like I really liked it. And I think when the movie comes to Netflix, it's just so watchable. It's just, it's going to do really well. I don't think it's quite like an Academy Award movie or anything like that. I thought Guy Pearce was very good. And actually, the way that Murdoch was portrayed, I'm not a Murdochologist. I haven't read any biographies of him. He's not somebody whose life and career has fascinated me in any way, although I know its impact is profound. I liked seeing this sense of resistance or concern at a turning point in his career as he is about to kind of change culture forever because of his financial capital and insight into, I guess what I'll call like the outsider perspective coming into establishment media and trying to upend it and the way in which it's being upended is to corrupt its decency, I guess for lack of a better phrase.

46:55Sean Fennessey:And showing Murdoch as this really hot-tempered Australian who also knows deep down something about this isn't right. And so the dynamic between him and Lamb and Lamb becoming really more of the like arch villain of the story in a lot of ways. Yes, yeah. was really fascinating. I like that stuff the most. Once again, I was like, this movie could have been told through the eyes of Claire Foy, like another Claire Foy performance where I was like, she's so good and she's clearly like a composite woman who represents like five women that Larry Lamb worked with. And I feel this way about her in so many movies where I'm like, maybe just like let her have the movie for a change, but she's your girl, so what do you think?

47:37Yeah, I mean, she does the most that she can with what is like a non-part. you know, she is the girl and she's meant to embody the ways in which women at this period had some say, but not enough say. We're used against, like we're used as tools to make more money and we're sort of complicit, but also taken advantage of. And then, you know, she exits, you know, stage right. So it's like, it is what it is. It's not really interested in investigating her, but she's very good. And again, also looks really hot. She's wearing all the 70s clothes. She's beautiful in the movie. Everyone looks really good.

48:17Yeah.

48:18Sean Fennessey:Which is its own pleasure. I completely agree with you. It's a fun festival movie in that specific way too because it's not a dour existential human drama. It's a rock and roll movie in a lot of ways. The way a lot of his best movies are. And it features a lot of the formal stuff that you've seen in the movies from him over the last 10 years. The step printing, the slow motion, the speeding up the frames, the wild camera angles, shifting film stocks. Now, one of the things that I didn't totally know, though I did sense while I was watching it, that came out after the fact, is that Boyle said he used generative AI for some of the sequences in the movie.

48:53Sean Fennessey:And he's come under fire for this for obvious reasons. As soon as I saw it, he uses some old photos and then animates them. And frankly, it looks like a filter that Instagram keeps trying to get you to use. and it was so clearly I was like oh you didn't need this and I like can see what it is but it also looks like a screensaver and it's on the screen for two seconds so like I don't know didn't he also say that he used mice used it for mice but I don't remember the mice I do remember the mice you know it's one of those things it reminded me a lot of the Steven Soderbergh John Lennon documentary and the conversation we had about that at Cannes where it was sort of like you've made an interesting film here this film could be a success you've also layered on top of it generative AI that is noticeable.

49:40Sean Fennessey:And you've kind of undermined some of the notions of what you're trying to convey. That is true. I will say that the Steven Soderbergh movie is like 50 % generative AI. And it was like the point. It was like that was the experiment, right? It wasn't 50%. There was a lot more than in this movie, but it wasn't 50%. It was like a lot. And it was, and part of that enterprise was, and you know, this is like me sort of defending my guy, Steven Soderbergh. But like, it's, they're tapes. It's audio. We don't have video for it. So let's see whether we can use this tool to animate it. And the answer I felt was no, which we said at the time.

50:19And I felt like you tried it and let's not do it again. But it was a lot more than this. This is two seconds. There is.

50:25Sean Fennessey:But it's one of those things where if you make that choice, then that becomes definitional to the movie. And when people ask about it now, they're like, oh, there's AI in it. But it's like, that's not what the movie is at all. It's a two hour docudrama with a ton of energy. Um, so yeah, I, I'm not surprised we're on the same page about this. I do think that people are going to generally enjoy this movie. Um, I think so. Incredibly watchable. Uh, okay. Let's take a quick break and then we're going to get into the rest of our top fives. This episode of the big picture is brought to you by Amazon prime.

50:55Sean Fennessey:What pairs with a good comedy, the cozy blanket arriving with prime. What pairs with the nail biting thriller snacks arriving with prime. What pairs with big game on prime video, that new couch arriving with Prime. Whatever feeling you're after, Prime helps bring it to life with great entertainment and fast shipping that delivers what the moment calls for. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime. All right, so I had a film tied at five along with Inc. And you have this film tied at four. Tied at four. So we can like 4.5 it and talk about it right now. Yeah, so the film is called Everest the Other Side.

51:32Sean Fennessey:It's a National Geographic documentary from Chai Vassarelli and Jimmy Chin, who are a very well-known pair of documentarians who have made a number of extremely successful films, including The Rescue and Free Solo and Nyad, the narrative feature film. That you saw instead of Eating Dinner with Ethan Hawke. Which once ruined what could have been one of the best nights in Telluride film history for me. this movie is about a man named Jim Morrison not the lead singer of The Doors but in fact a mountain climber and skier of some renown who I'd never heard of and this movie like all of Jimmy and Chai's movies looks incredible has pulverizing emotional moments is about people whose psychologies I don't understand at all like I have no idea what compels people to do the things that they do in these films.

52:31Sean Fennessey:And also I had some like, frankly, like ethical misgivings about. Should it exist? Yeah. Yeah, should it exist? It's an incredible movie that I'm not sure it should exist. Yeah. And this. I wept like three times watching this movie. Well, because it is about the mountains and they talk about the power of the mountains. And I felt like that was like. Family as well, Amanda, Jesus Christ. It's definitely about marriages. So I saw it. I knew nothing about the story either going in. And I don't think that we should say anything else. And if you're at all interested, if you liked Free Solo, if you want to listen to the Bard and Ruben episode we're going to do about this when it's widely available, I would recommend that you not read anymore and just see the film, which is pretty astonishing and is probably the movie most this festival where when I run into people and it's like, what have you seen?

53:23What have you liked? it's either, you know, I said, have you seen this? And someone says, oh my God, yes. Or someone says no. And I'm like, I'm not going to say anything. Just go. Because there is much to discuss. As I texted you, like I walked out of the theater and texted you and I was like, we got to talk about this right now, my guy. I know. Because there's, I mean, it's a really rich and incredibly upsetting text. But I couldn't believe what I was watching a lot of the time.

53:54Sean Fennessey:I'm trying to think of like what we can give to people. Well, one, you know, this is rare, but I think it is very much worth seeing on a big screen because of the epic photography. At the center of the film, this guy, Jim Morrison, he wants to scale the north face of Everest. That is his mission in the film, which is something that very, very few people have ever done that requires an enormous amount of capital, both human and financial, and is deadly. It is a risk of life. And this movie is in many ways, like a lot of the Chai and Jimmy movies, an exploration of the psychology of a person who wants to do these things.

54:33Sean Fennessey:However, Jim Morrison's personal story is so powerful and overwhelming at times, the way that it's unveiled in the film. But I never felt like I could really get to the bottom of the psychology of what he was doing. Or if I could, I was like, I didn't, I wasn't happy about it. I was like kind of angered by it. And, and that is such an unusual combination of feelings. Yes. That's so interesting because I felt like I got to a place where I understood his psychology, but every other single person in the movie, I had a lot of thoughts and questions for. Yes. And I also found myself angry. I found myself angry at my husband just by the transitive property after seeing this movie and like called him.

55:18And then I was also honestly like a little bit angry at you too because I was like, this is like some Sean bullshit. Like they, like some of these people live in Telluride. So I was just like, yeah,

55:29Sean Fennessey:it is a very Telluride movie. There are a lot of moments where you can see like you would walk out of the movie and see what we were showing. So, I mean, it's like, it's so engaging. And I mean, I guess even that question of should it exist is interesting. And it's a should it exist in a more traditional documentary sense, which, you know, I know is we started this conversation by talking about a movie that played at Telluride that just blew up what a documentary means. But this to me is still is walking on the edge. And I, you know, it does exist. So I would encourage people to see it. And then, I guess?

56:09Sean Fennessey:Well, it's interesting. You know, one of the movies that was here at Telluride was Tenzing, which is a portrait of Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary and their attempt to scale Everest. And Apple is putting that out. It's a feature film. And, you know, it's like a pretty successful portrait of a historical event. It's right down the middle, but it tells that story very well from Tenzing's perspective. And one of the things that this movie is attempting to do, Everest, is at least be generous and thoughtful about the role that Sherpas play in this world. But the movie just feels so exploitative of the work that they do.

56:46And the whole enterprise of this

56:50Sean Fennessey:where incredibly wealthy people attempt to conquer this natural beauty, but they need the help of people who need to do this work to make money. It's a very dicey thing. And who go ahead of them. I know. And there's more. You do have to put this on the schedule. I'm sorry. For a conversation. I know. Yeah. No, I know. It's such a rich movie. And it is in a lot of ways like a culmination, I think, of what Jimmy and Chai have been doing. And Jimmy is a huge participant in the film. Yes. He participates in scaling the mountain with Jim Morrison. So, you know, I'm with you. Like, I was fascinated.

57:27Sean Fennessey:I was completely engaged. I was moved. Like, it did all the things that you want a movie like this to do. and I also spent an hour being like, I don't think this is okay. And that's art, I guess. That's life. Well, I mean, but like what's not okay? Is like what's happening in the movie not okay? Is the making of the movie not okay? Like how much does the making of the movie inform what's happening? And, you know, so people should see it. I agree with you. I agree with you. Or they should see it. Or if you're interested, see it and then we're going to yell about it. Okay. Okay, so what is the other half of your number four?

58:04Well, I paired it with the other documentary that I saw, which is previously discussed, was Oasis, Don't Look Back in Anger, which is Dylan Southern and Will Lovelace followed Noel and Liam through rehearsals, and then seemingly all of the tour that Oasis embarked on these last two years, the reunion tour. and it is it's not reinventing the form um and there there is there are fan testimonials kind of sprinkled throughout which i think that like they are as creative and original as like a fan testimonial of like what oasis means to me can be but you know they're in there so it's like but they have access to rehearsals they have at least one sit down with liam and noel together oh and they're backstage they're on the side of the stage you get like they're behind the stage so you get reaction shots you get a lot of like noel turning around and playing the guitar with his back to the crowd because he's like overcome you get Liam and like it's it's like it's really good and they use the good archival I mean Liam Gallagher is so important to me just like so spiritually important to me um and I was reminded you know reminded of that once again it's I I thought that it was just like well I'm of a certain age I went to the show in there at the Rose Bowl when they played in Los Angeles like maybe this is just for old people that I like teared up but then everyone I talked to was kind of like no I teared up too again it's it's you know it's not like historical but also it kind of is it's beautiful

59:51Sean Fennessey:yeah I mean I love Oasis so it's a no-brainer for me I don't have to think twice about going to see it I think it was interesting too that the you know the band had another moment during the World Cup you know the fact that the English national team and Wonderwall and the way that that kind of like went back into the culture six months after their reunion tour was in the culture was cool. And there is something really interesting about these guys to me. And I guess we'll talk about it maybe later this week if I get a chance to see it before we record again. They were instantaneous like megastars who were trying to be megastar rock stars, but also it was so clear how derivative they were and they were getting dinged for their being derivative, but also their derivations were so satisfying and exultant.

1:00:35Sean Fennessey:And like the fact that we can be okay with that, you know? So internationally resonant. And much of the movie is, it reminds me a little bit about like when we talk about this show and we're like, why do young people listen to this? And Liam and Noel are kind of like, they weren't around the first time, but it's really special. And they're like fairly sincere about it. Anything to compare us to Liam and Noel, you love it. Okay, that's good. I need all of those windbreakers because then I got to see the windbreakers every color. I mean, that's the other thing because you didn't go to the shows.

1:01:06I mean, it is like a well-recorded concert doc. And you get a lot of the full songs and it looks cool and it's loud. and you know it's definitely better than a Taylor Swift documentary concert documentary so I loved it that's great thank you Noel and Liam

1:01:25Sean Fennessey:number four for me is Tender Loving Care which is like the complete emotional inverse of everything we've been talking about so far this is reportedly Mike Lee's last film it stars Cato Flynn and Miriam Bailey Cato Flynn having a big moment she's on Widow's Bay which I know you haven't seen but she's wonderful on that show as, I guess, a woman who works in local government who is sort of bewitched, haunted, and constantly at the center of some crazy stuff. She's been working with Mike Lee for a long time. I forgot she was in Happy-Go-Lucky, like almost 20 years ago. And she plays a woman who is turning 40, single, has just moved back in with a friend.

1:02:08Sean Fennessey:Her life is kind of at a crossroads. She's just been dumped by her boyfriend who's going back to his ex-wife. And her parents are getting older. And it's a portrait of who you are in your late 30s and also what it's like to watch your parents slowly and then quickly move into the last phase of their life. And, you know, like all Mike Lee movies, it's like very closely observed, highly specific, utterly intimate. This one is very sad. I thought it was brilliant. I thought it was like also kind of a callback to a lot of the movies that he was making in the 70s and 80s that is very different from when he was making these like explosive international art house hits in the 90s and 2000s.

1:02:53Sean Fennessey:O 'Flynn and Bailey are fucking amazing. And it's very similar to me to Hard Truths, which came out, you know, a couple years ago, which like kind of got right up to the precipice of the awards race and never totally got there. This movie's from the same studio. You know, I hope that this movie gets more attention and love, but it is a small English domestic drama. and so it's a little bit of a harder sell, you know? I am really looking forward to seeing it. I've waited too long on Hartruths and much of Mike Lee's work. So let's get it in the mix. Yeah, we'll talk about him more definitely as the year goes on.

1:03:27Sean Fennessey:I think this one is coming out in December and is very much worth your time. Okay, what's next for you? So this might be a little controversial and I want to talk about it. So I have Possible Love at number three. Okay. So Possible Love, which you've not seen yet. I haven't. I'm seeing it today. It's imminent. Is the new Li Cheng Dong film, his first since burning. And everyone, by about Friday, everyone at the festival was like, okay, so Possible Love is going to be the best movie at this festival. This is it, like masterpiece incoming. And I saw the movie and I think that it is like empirically excellent.

1:04:09like it is it is undeniably very good and i have some sort of like i have a little bit of distance from it as i did from burning that i'm trying to work through and so i think i've crystallized it for you okay and you're gonna understand this comp and everyone else is gonna have to wait until they've also sat through ryusuke hamaguchi's all of a sudden to understand it but i think this has the whiteboard problem so this is a movie about two couples one who is wealthier one not as wealthy. And the husband of the poor couple was fired from his job at a factory after participating in strikes. And so it's a little bit about, and then the wife of the other couple is making a documentary about, you know, unemployment and class and labor and strikes and all of these big themes.

1:05:03And so, you know, it's about how these two couples kind of entangle from there, which is very interesting. So it is about like big, heady issues. And Ian, all of a sudden, we've talked a lot about the whiteboard scene, which is 30 minutes when people are diagramming how capitalism works. And there is a segment in this that is more interview, and it's the character who's making the documentary, making the documentary and kind of interview styles, but there is just a lot of very straightforward,

1:05:43educational, theoretic discussion that I found myself kind of hitting a speed bump on, even though it's essential to what comes next.

1:05:55Sean Fennessey:But this is something that you did like in All of a Sudden, right? And that's the thing. I liked the whiteboard and all of a sudden I was like, I think how other people bumped on the whiteboard. This is my whiteboard. I see. And that doesn't mean that it doesn't all come together. And it does. And it's, I mean, it's so good. It's really good. And I think you're really going to like it. Yeah, I'm such a huge fan of his films. I mean, that's the other thing is that I did also, like, I recognized that Burning was excellent. And like, I didn't like feel it in my veins, you know, for whatever reason.

1:06:28So I think that's maybe a me issue, but it's very, very, very good. And it is South Korea's selection for the Oscar. I'm certain it'll be in the international feature conversation. And I was very glad to see it.

1:06:42Sean Fennessey:That's great. I'm really looking forward to it as well. And yeah, there's just generally a very interesting Netflix slate this year that feels very different from what they usually have where they have like one big famous Titanic auteur Scorsese Cuaron Campion like it's not that's not what their slate is this year and they acquired La Bola Negra out of out of Cannes they have this movie and I think they developed you know like I think they've always been on this film as far as I know I'm not quite sure maybe it started with some South Korea funding and they they came in on it but um Ink is another movie too where they came in and they acquired it like they didn't have that big movie at the middle of their slate that was meant to be the dominant champion.

1:07:28Sean Fennessey:And so all of those, the way that those pieces fit together fascinates me. Okay, I'll talk about my number three, which was maybe the most joyful movie going experience that I had over the weekend, which was the debut, which is Jesse Eisenberg's new film as a director, his third feature. It stars Julianne Moore and Paul Giamatti. Julianne Moore plays a housewife who auditions for a local community theater production of a musical that is made up that Eisenberg wrote the words and the lyrics and music for. Giamatti plays the local community director. And I thought this was going to be the, just the episode of The Simpsons where Marge auditions for Streetcar Named Desire, Streetcar Named Marge, famous Simpsons episode.

1:08:22Sean Fennessey:And in some ways it is that. And it's also way more absurdist and Kaufman-esque. I thought of the European filmmaker Aki Korosmaki watching the movie. It's not quite as like down the middle crowd-pleasing as I expected. However, it has a few moments and a performance from Julianne Moore that are so... exciting and fun and funny. And like there's a moment in the middle of the movie where Moore's character is giving a performance and she is being coached by Giamatti. And when that sequence ended, it was nearly a standing ovation in the Palm Theater at Telluride. I've not heard such a mid-act break of appreciation for a performance for what Julianne Moore is doing in the scene pretty much in my history of going to Telluride.

1:09:20Sean Fennessey:and so if you if you like her it is her at all the levels you know sad and distraught manic and funny wildly over the top wildly sensitive and thoughtful it's the fucking whole shebang it is like the total Julianne Moore package and Giamatti obviously is always very very compelling and and strong and interesting the movie if you I was talking with Kyle Buchanan about this movie and he was making some notes about its general story coherence, all of which I think were completely fair and did not bother me in the slightest because I thought of it as this like heightened, absurdist experience. If you go in with like, does this make sense brain?

1:10:08Okay.

1:10:08Sean Fennessey:May not work as well. The other thing is, for Amanda Dobbins purposes, you know, this is a film about local community theater. Sure. So what's the ratio of singing to, And so what's the ratio of singing to not singing? And what's the ratio of like waiting for government, like Christopher Guest style situations to. That's an interesting comp. It doesn't have that like faux documentary feeling that Guest movies do where it's sort of like, we're sort of mocking these people, but we sort of love them. Like this is a movie about, it's a more heartful movie than that. It's hard to say whether the actual musical is like meant to be bad, good or bad, good, like or good, bad.

1:10:50Sean Fennessey:And so like there is plenty of time. You probably see three to five full musical song and dance performances, but a lot of the film is actually the sort of like rehearsing of those sequences and seeing what it's like to do that work. And it's in a comic way, but it is very specific about like, if you dedicate your time to community theater, this is what you have to do to put on a good show. And I know that that's a danger area for you, you know? That's true. But this is a film about that. So there's some distance from it. I think when there's no self-awareness is when, and when there's total vulnerability is when I get upset.

1:11:34And there's someone standing in the way of this.

1:11:37Sean Fennessey:Yeah. It seems like Julianne Moore's gonna win an Oscar for it. So, you know, who cares what I think? I'm a little reluctant to just be like, it's done. She's got it. But like, that was one of the few movies where people came out and they were like, boom, number two for her. You know, she should have had number two for Safe and Boogie Nights and End of the Affair and all these other movies she should have gotten it for. But she's just completely remarkable. And the movie is a lot of fun and I liked it quite a bit. And it played really, really well at the festival. And until the Fielder film, I would say that was probably the movie that had the most like did you see it did you see it like a it was a very tough ticket a lot of people got shut out of it I think they only showed it twice which is a pretty low number Eisenberg seemed like so nervous beforehand as he always does and it was just like what are you nervous about man like you got it like you got the juice but yeah it was great and Emma Stone and her company produced the movie so she was there supporting the film Giamatti I sat behind him during the film and he was just having a ball, laughing through the whole film, having a really good time.

1:12:42Sean Fennessey:It's always funny to be watching a movie with someone who's in the film and you never know if they've seen it before or what or how they choose to support a movie. Some people don't like to look at themselves. But it was a good time. Okay. Number two for you. How much are you going to talk about this? Not too much because it's coming out pretty soon. And I don't want to step on people. But it's similar to the way that until

1:13:08the Nathan Fielder, Elizabeth Holmstock. The debut was sort of the movie. Primetime was the movie here. Primetime was the, have you seen it? Have you seen it? Are you going to see it? When are you going to see it? What do you think about it? And this is, so this is Lance Oppenheim's narrative feature film about Chris Hansen and To Catch a Predator, starring Robert Pattinson, along with Skylar Xando and Merritt Weaver and Phoebe Bridgers. And it worked for me. It worked for me. It did. I felt kind of skeezy afterwards in some ways. It goes in and tries to recreate not just the moment and the moment in media that we were all a part of.

1:13:59It's maybe not in conversation with ink but there are media executives of various eras portrayed in all of them and those decisions and what the decisions that you're making for ratings or um in terms of what's uh permissible to air and what's not and how far you'll go is it is a consistent theme so uh so it worked on that level but i mean i just like robert pattinson like i'm i'm here for you I've always been here for you. It's like... Did you meet the man? No, I would never meet Robert Pattinson. Come on, you know that. He did, he and Suki Waterhouse, his partner, stayed at the party. They were at the party the whole time.

1:14:42I've never seen celebrities like stay that late at a party and seem to be having a great time from afar.

1:14:47Sean Fennessey:You didn't roll up. Rob, what's cooking, bro? I was at the party. I talked to everybody else, like I said. Like I, you know, I was like, I was there. It's me, Amanda. I'm a podcaster. I'm a mom what's happening? Never I'd rather die Okay I heard he's cool Your husband's met him He's profiled him I'm sure he's cool Yeah, no Zach is like he's my favorite He's interviewed him multiple times and he's like yeah, he's the best He seems great and also Jennifer Lawrence says he's a big gossip like I know we'd have a lot to talk about but that's you know that's not You fucking blew it Dobbins You blew it You know that's not how I roll I had a great time at the primetime party You don't need to worry about me I'm glad So anyway I just this performance is so fucking out there in the best way and watching it I was like you know do you remember the interview that Peter Sarsgaard gave during Jackie about the first day that Natalie Portman came to the set and he said and did her voice and he said oh this is what you're doing and you have like 18 oh this is what you're doing moments in the performance but they all kind of come together.

1:15:56I don't know. It's really, it's really fun to see a master at work. And that master is Robert Pattinson.

1:16:01Sean Fennessey:Do you think he will be recognized for this work? Cause he's obviously having an amazing year. Right. So a game that I was trying to play for, and I don't want to say too much about the movie, but so I mentioned Skylar Gazondo is in it and he is, there's a case for him in lead as well. It is not quite a two-hander, but there is a lot. He's great. Merritt Weaver's great. Everybody's great. But the way the story is constructed, he does a lot and he carries a lot of the emotional weight of the movie. Okay. And so at one point I was sitting there trying to game it in my head. And I was like, okay, so can you put Skylar Gazondo in lead and Pattinson in supporting?

1:16:42And then Pattinson just walks. And I don't like, I don't think you can do it. Okay. I think they really are co-leads. If they do it, I won't complain. um but fraud defines the oscars in my opinion and i don't care about category fraud and but but it is i think it would make more sense in voters minds as you know that completely wild supporting performance um and just going for it but i hope he'll be recognized in lead i think i mean it is really out there that's what i like about it you know and i know that more people really enjoy like get these beggars out of here and we haven't even seen dune so it could go some other way yeah um but i thought it was just rad it's really interesting because obviously he's

1:17:30Sean Fennessey:developed like i think there's a huge appreciation for him as both a star and an actor which is unusual right that doesn't happen very often when someone is like put him on the poster open the movie guy who also is like a leading progenitor of his craft and he's never been nominated for an Academy Award. He's in five movies this year. He's kind of staked his claim alongside Tom Holland, Zendaya, I don't know, Sidney Sweeney, like a handful of people who are just like, this actually is the future of the business in terms of who you're putting on the poster. And it would be cool to see him recognized, but it also feels like his taste is why he's not being recognized, but that's why he should be recognized.

1:18:08Sean Fennessey:You know, it's that perfect paradox of the Oscars. I completely agree. And that's why I was like sitting there literally in the room engineering like okay so if we do supporting then are they going to understand it a little bit more and we can we kind of like sneak this really cool thing by him yeah but that's a testament to the movie as well that it like it builds the architecture for him to be really really out there yeah and and for it to make sense and also still be really surprising um and like i haven't just been like, oh, that many times in a single movie in a cool way. I'm a fan. That's very exciting.

1:18:45Sean Fennessey:I'm seeing it soon. So hopefully, you know, we'll do a whole episode about the film. I think about this movie and you can see everything. And obviously an insane moment for Lance Oppenheim, who's only 30 years old to have these two movies, which I think will be two of the most talked about of the fall. And as somebody who's been like really a big fan of his since I saw Some Kind of Heaven, whatever, a few years back and had him on the show to talk about Ren Faire. It's also very rare to see a young filmmaker, but also that's kind of been the story of this year too, of like 20 somethings and 30 somethings kind of emerging and bursting through.

1:19:16Sean Fennessey:And the thing I've been thinking about with both of his movies is how commercial are both of these movies? Like is, because primetime obviously it sounds like it's pretty edgy and confrontational. And you know, it premiered here in Italy where it's really not clear that that many people, non-Americans, know what to catch a predator is. You may have seen reported that Jeff Zucker has a cameo. And I knew that was coming. Silence in the room because no Italian knows who Jeff Zucker is. No Italian remembers the primetime wars. There's a whole plot line about how they have to be lost. I'm sure they had lost in Italy, but I don't really think they cared in the same way.

1:20:00Sean Fennessey:So what do you make of the decision to send that film to Venice and nowhere else? Cause it's not playing anywhere else. I, from what I understand of the Telluride crowd, I don't know that they would have felt, I think it's like the wrong kind of edgelord movie. Um, and that, you know, uh, what is the, I keep, I keep wanting to call the Elizabeth Tom's movie. Now you see me, but it's not now you see me. You can see everything. You can see everything. It would be amazing if she starts doing magic and then Rosamund Pike shows up with a South African accent. Anyway. Well, there is a kind of magic in the movie.

1:20:40Sean Fennessey:I'll say that. So actually, you can see. Not to interrupt you, but no, no, no. Nathan and Lance told the story about where they came up with the idea for the movie. And it was when they went out together to the Magic Castle here in Los Angeles. And they went into my favorite room in maybe all of the city, which is the close-up magic room. And that's where they saw something. They heard the name Elizabeth Holmes uttered in that room. And that led to the making of the movie. Sorry to interrupt you. Okay. Well, there we go. So I was, you know, picking up something. But so you can see everything at least has the veneer of like Elizabeth Holmes is like a true story.

1:21:12And that was like exposed in the Wall Street Journal. And, you know, like, so the retirees are like, they have some grounding from which to be pushed into weird, unexpected territory. Primetime, I'm sure they remember Chris Hansen, but it is purposefully a sleaze fest the whole time. So I think that there is something that, you know, Italians, even if they don't know who Jeff Zucker is, are not quite as prudish in the same way. And also they got the star spot. Like I do really hear that was the thing. and he was in all the slideshows and he was the biggest star here. Right. And they can still do that.

1:21:55So to me, it makes sense. I mean, is it not going to be at New York? I know it'll be out by New York already. No, it's coming out September 25th. Yeah, that's also very smart, right? You do one, you get a star push for a movie of this size that is not as commercial as Dune, also starring Robert Pattinson. I think it's really smart to get the runway and then go.

1:22:17Sean Fennessey:Can't wait to see it. great sell. My number two is your number one. So this is nice. We can talk about this movie, which is Wild Horse Nine, which alongside the debut, I would say was the biggest film at Telluride. And same here. And it premiered at Venice. And then the folks from the film came over overnight in the same fashion as the Oppenheim team came to Telluride. And we've talked about it a little bit. This is a new Martin McDonough film. It stars John Malkovich, Sam Rockwell, Parker Posey. It is about two CIA agents in Chile in the 1970s after Allende's election. And they visit Easter Island to see, as Malkovich's character calls them, the big heads.

1:23:10Sean Fennessey:And they're... I'm very excited to see that this movie is so high on your list. I think it is wonderful. It is a very specific thing that I love and I have been calling it The American in Bruges which is my favorite Martin McDonough film. But there is a component of this movie that I did not know about that made it a wonderful exploration of the American project that I don't want to ruin for anybody either. I think I've seen a lot in the reviews and stuff but I feel like you should preserve that for yourself. What did you think of it? It's true. Well, though, I mean, that reveal is, you know, that's kind of one of my favorite things in the world across genres and across times is here in white men be invested in that, you know, that's like my comfort thing.

1:23:58Sean Fennessey:That thing. Yes. I thought of you when I saw it. I was just like, oh my God, this is, and you know, the way I feel like this, this marriage of subjects of just not just that thing, but, um, the CIA in, in Chile. And so Americans destabilizing, uh, uh, a foreign government, which has a very cynical, um, viewpoint on, and Malkovich's character is at a late phase of life. And all of these, like all of, all of the plot choices and the subject choices put through the, are like the perfect, Martin McDonough is who I want to interpret them. Like the blend of cynicism and there goes that dream and wistfulness and like is a perfect marriage in these movies.

1:24:53And I think Malkovich just like gives an incredible performance. And we should say that, you know, just like Julianne Moore in the debut, everyone's like, well, Malkovich gets the Oscar. Sorry, Matt Damon. Better luck next year.

1:25:02Sean Fennessey:It was the same thing in Telluride. That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. So, and it's hard to argue with when you watch it because it's so winning and he's so funny and heartbreaking. But I really like this as a McDonough film. Like, I felt like his spin is the right spin on this. And sometimes like the balance is, I mean, he's very talented. I like all of his movies, but like all of the balance is just right here. Well, it's a really interesting movie to put into his filmography. And I guess we'll get into it later when we do an episode about it when it comes out this fall. But, you know, he received such acclaim and such blowback for Three Billboards.

1:25:44Sean Fennessey:And it does feel like him circling back a little bit to some of the ideas in that movie and trying to put a slightly different gloss on it. But he's consistently telling these stories through the eyes, usually of two white guys. That's two white guys, an older guy and a younger guy. That's usually the dynamic in his movies. The older guy knows a little bit more. The younger guy is a little bit more energetic. In this particular case, I think you can make the case there's nobody better with his dialogue than Rockwell. And Rockwell, while Malkovich is giving a performance that will be about the totality of his work and about what we know about him as this kind of like explosive trickster figure of American cinema and the American stage, Rockwell is forced to carry the movie in a lot of ways and be the like the fulcrum for this aging CIA agent and who is reckoning with his history and the things that he has done and the two of them are just phenomenal together the movie also looks beautiful I think it is perhaps the most artfully made McDonough film, the most cinematic McDonough film and choosing to tell an American story in foreign lands which is a prism through which to see how America runs the world, you know, and the fact that we think we can just kind of drag our ass into any city or country and make people do things the way we want to do them, I thought was a fascinating idea.

1:27:07Sean Fennessey:I think you can read it unfavorably too and say, why is this film about what happened in Chile in the 1970s about these two white Americans? I think that's the wrong reading of the movie, but I think people will read it that way and we should probably prepare ourselves for that. I'm sure they will. Well, and there is also, there's some joke lines baked into the movie, I think, to preempt or provoke those exact people. I agree. To know that they're coming, but they're funny. One criticism that I have read of the movie, which I think is fair but doesn't bother me, is that some of its sort of perspective, like its lens on the events and history does not feel like contemporaneous to the story.

1:27:47Sean Fennessey:It's sort of like it's an ex post facto reading of how some people might have talked about things. But again, like I see it similar to the way I see the debut where I'm like, you're in kind of a fantasia of history. You're not in what's meant to be a literal reading of events that happened. And so if you're going into that, worrying about, you know, the translation of the times doesn't bother me as much. I also think that Remove is wise and also like an honest reflection of, you know, McDonough's not an American. So telling a story about Americans, but set not in America is probably like a more accurate representation of the perspective and gives him more room than if you're, for example, Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri, and you're trying to, you're claiming to represent like the actual U.S.

1:28:41itself. Right. Rather than like a perspective away from the U.S. That's a great point. find that films about the U.S. are received very differently in, you know, the United States and elsewhere because clearly we have different understandings. So, like, to me, it's smart. Yeah.

1:28:57Sean Fennessey:I mean, just a quick testimony to how much I like this movie. I had a chance to see it the week before Telluride, and it was revealed as the patron screening, which is sort of like what usually is the secret screening at Telluride. It's the first film that is shown to all the patron pass holders and also to the press that happens very early on on Friday afternoon. And I sat through for almost the entire thing a second time, like less than a week later. So, yeah. I mean, it's wonderful. It's really good. Really good. And we'll talk about it more as time goes on. And then, of course, for me, my number one is You Can See Everything.

1:29:27Sean Fennessey:I did write about it a bit more on the sub stack. So if people want to read a little bit more, I tried not to spoil really any particular details of the movie and talked more about how I see it as like a real confrontation with what we think documentary is. and specifically this idea that the two most popular forms of documentary right now are the authorized, you know, the participant is driving the creative, you know, that is frequently about a famous person. Yes. And then the other strain of it is true crime and the wave of true crime documentary that, you know, is on Netflix, but is also on Hulu and on HBO Max.

1:30:03Sean Fennessey:And like that. And the reason that those two things are so popular is because or they're so prevalent is because they're so popular. Like they are what people want. and this movie is kind of about those two things and it really tangles with those two modes of documentary and also completely detonates them in such an interesting way. So I tried to get into that a little bit when I wrote about it so you can check it out on Projections. Let's do some honorable mentions because we did see some other films. Yeah. And I'll start. I saw The Liberation which is the new film from Guy Nativ that stars our friends Carrie Coon and Tracy Letts.

1:30:39Tracy was there Tracy was here with Venice was here with me in Venice last year and now you get Tracy and Carrie both and a great Carrie performance I'm pissed

1:30:49Sean Fennessey:full disclosure I dined with Carrie and Tracy so I am not objective about this film but I was on the record about Carrie Coon before I met her so I feel comfortable saying that I think she's incredible in this movie the movie is based on the director Nativ's real life grandmother who in the middle of her life while working at a bank joined a cult and completely upended her family and left her family to join this cult. And his grandmother was a survivor of the Holocaust and had a lot of unprocessed trauma. And Kuhn plays the grandmother figure. Tracy plays her husband. They have two children played by Bella Ramsey and Odessa Young.

1:31:36Sean Fennessey:The leader of the cult is Lily James. Wow. Who is very good in the movie. I like the movie and don't love the movie and it's interesting because what I think I don't love about it is something that I think is a very artful choice but makes the movie not cohere for me which is that the movie is very focused primarily on Coon's characters. Not her decision so much as like what actually happens when she joins and what the cult is about, but the movie doesn't explain hardly anything about how the cult started, where Lily James' ideas came from. Like that same true crime cult documentary style that I was just talking to you about, we've come to expect a certain form of explanation in those stories, and the movie withholds that from you.

1:32:27Sean Fennessey:And I found it a little maddening. The other thing is that it's a very sad and depressing story. There's just no way around it. Like it's just a tough, tough story. And so you're not going to come out of a film festival screening at 10.30 p.m. and be like, let's go party. It's not that kind of movie. Yeah. And Tracy is very good in the film as well. He has a modest part, a couple of really good laugh lines that broke up the doom-like tenor of it. And so it was fun seeing them. It was really fun to see Carrie in like the prestige movie atmosphere where it was like Carrie Coon, Oscar nomination.

1:32:55Sean Fennessey:There was another example of that where when you came out, that was the conversation that people wanted to have. And obviously she's very worthy of that sort of a thing. so I like the movie I didn't love it but I think it's very much worth seeing for the performances what's one of your honorable mentions so we have we have one honorable mention that's the same which is Bucking Faster oh yeah you did see this I did see it yeah I was I was charmed by it I mean it's pretty odd even by Werner Herzog standards it's weird you know and the first the title card is that it's dedicated to David Lynch which also you know I was like oh right this is this is going to be weird.

1:33:31And then I, or it's going to be out there. And I was so charmed by the Rooney and Kate Mara performance. And, you know, they, they are in the whole movie together. I don't really want to say too much more than that, but so many great moments, such a cool thing for them to do. I like them both individually as actors. I like that they are engaging with, you know, their fame and also the idea of, being sisters and I can't say that it like revealed a lot to me about this what it means to be a sibling or a person in the world I'm an only child so I have limitations there oh interesting but that's okay like I still enjoyed it um and and I've like there's there's one scene with a forklift that I just think is triumphant and I'll think about it every time I see a forklift there's

1:34:24Sean Fennessey:a lot of really fun stuff in it I saw I saw it very late at night and it was a little challenging in the final third of the movie where it takes a digression to Ireland that I felt was a little far afield. But you're totally right about the Marr sisters. Like, what they do in the movie is not something I've seen before. It's rare that you can say that about a movie. I've not seen a performance like the one that they're giving. And I use the singular performance very specifically. Yeah. We should talk about Elsinore. Yeah. So this is the film about Ian Charleston, the British actor who performed at the National Theater whilst struggling with HIV and AIDS.

1:35:08Sean Fennessey:The movie is directed by Simon Stone, who is mostly known as the theater director, stars Andrew Scott as Charleston. Charleston, you know, is an actor who like you would know he was in Gandhi. He's well, I guess, best known for Chariots of Fire. He did some Hollywood stuff, but he also had a big career in the English theater. and he is, the movie is so strange because it's just so obviously one of the most committed performances from an actor you'll ever see in a movie, and it also mirrors what's happening, like what the character is doing in the movie, and Scott is a favorite of ours, and he's phenomenal in the film, but the film is like, and a lot of people are comparing it to 90s Miramax films where you've got these kind of like very heartfelt docudramas about artists struggling at a certain period in history.

1:35:55Sean Fennessey:And it is that. But the movie has this very weird editing style that is montage plus we don't have it in the edit that you can feel as a viewer. We're like, there were just too many sequences to me of just like Andrew Scott walking into buildings, wandering on top of a roof, reciting his lines, you know, looking in the middle distance from his apartment, you know, like shots of the book of Hamlet, you know, that he's been studying. like a lot of just like that stuff uncinematic things where you're like we're trying to find the movie in this story right that and then there are other sequences where it's just like for 30 seconds unbroken Andrew Scott doing Hamlet yeah and you're like okay this is the this is the movie right like this is this is the magic tree this is the special effect like you don't need to do anything like stop cutting just like hold on this moment because this is something that we would want to watch And that is actually what the idea of the movie is, is like what you would want to watch when somebody really takes it over.

1:36:56Sean Fennessey:One thing that's very funny about this, which is a true story, is that, you know, Charleston came in for Daniel Day-Lewis, who walked off stage in the middle of a performance of Hamlet and then never performed on stage again. So it is sort of like the sequel prequel to the Daniel Day-Lewis legend, you know, which I mean, and I think David Sims actually may have even spoken about this exact moment in history when we did the Day-Lewis Hall of Fame. He did, yeah. and so that's very like a very fun that's the opening moments of the movie it's the first minute of the movie is Day-Lewis and then what that means for Charleston but I just don't think the film is very good at all but I thought that the performance was extraordinary and so what it felt feels like to me is actually what usually happens in the context of the Oscar race is in movies starring women the best actress race is usually like oh this film's not going to be nominated for best picture but it will get a lone nomination you know the Renee Zellweger and Judy situation where it'll get one nomination and it might even win.

1:37:52The Julianne Moore and Still Alice situation? Julianne Moore

1:37:53Sean Fennessey:and Still Alice, yes. Yeah. It is, and that, I mean, that happens every year in Best Actress, but this is what that feels like to me. Okay. Well, I'll still see it for Andrew Scott. Okay. What's next for you? This is not a new film, but I, for the first time, I went to, our pals at Letterboxd had an event, and so I went to see Three Colors Blue. Oh, cool. The Krzysztof Kieslowski movie. Yeah, it was amazing, like on a rooftop. It was, about it so they can post or whatever but they said i could log the movie which i did um and since possible love is like alleged like it has been described um by lee chang dong as like a very loose inspired by one of the decalogues uh episodes oh okay i didn't know that thou shall not covet um it's like it's been in some of the materials or in some of the interviews just that it's in the air.

1:38:45So I thought, given that, I could at least include this movie that I saw while here in Venice that just absolutely rocks. And it's so cool. And I believe they chose it because it was the shortest Golden Lion winner with the highest rating possible. But it stars Julia Pinoche. It did win the Golden Lion here. It's wonderful. If you haven't seen it, it's also the first in sort of an unofficial trilogy. I'm going to seek out the other two.

1:39:10Sean Fennessey:Come borrow my blue ace, my 4Ks. Yeah. And then also just the view is absolutely amazing from that rooftop. Nice. That's fun. Don't worry about it. That's really great. Yeah, it was great. I guess the last film I'll mention is The Disciple, which was quite interesting for me. I think this film premiered at Sundance, but Netflix picked it up. And this is a movie about the world of the Wu-Tang Clan. Specifically about a member of the extended Wu-Tang affiliates, Silver Rings. Netflix did a smart thing at the festival that I did not totally get to participate in, which is that a lot of the movie is about the creation and delivery of Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, which is a Wu-Tang album of which there is one extant copy, and virtually no one has heard.

1:39:58Sean Fennessey:It was released in 2014. It was acquired by Martin Shkreli. You may remember the infamous pharmaceutical oligarch who was brought down on fraud charges. I don't know if he's still in prison, but he is the guy who bought this album. The album was created to be owned by one person with an 88-year license fee, non-distributive license fee. The movie is also a portrait of Silver Rings, this guy who is a Moroccan Dutch guy who grew up, as I did, obsessed with Wu-Tang, but unlike me, flew himself to New York multiple times just to sit outside the offices to hope to meet the people who are associated with Wu-Tang, especially RZA.

1:40:39Sean Fennessey:And eventually, he found himself in the inner circle of Wu-Tang in the 2000s. And he worked as a tour manager. He worked as a rapper. He worked as a producer. He worked as a general confidant and affiliate. And the movie is like, it's an immigrant story. It's an outsider story. It's about a guy who's desperately trying to find out who he really is and who he wants to be and how art inspires him and moves him. And some of that stuff is fine. Like, it's like pretty standard, not the most revelatory thing in the world, but I enjoyed it. What Netflix did that was smart, which I failed to participate in, was they did a listening party for the album.

1:41:12Sean Fennessey:which very few people have heard. And you didn't go. Because I was sick and I fell asleep. Oh, it's tough. We got one of these every year. I know, and I didn't wake up. But I was really sick. And if I did not sleep, I would have had a really hard time at the festival. And I have a lot of regrets. And I'm hoping that they'll play the album again. But, you know, eventually the album did go back kind of into the ether. And the film explores a lot of the decisions that happen around that and some of the controversies around that in an interesting way. But it was just a great film festival stunt. And I'm sorry that I didn't get to participate in hearing the record.

1:41:43Sean Fennessey:But I've spent so much time in my life listening to Wu-Tang albums that I was like, of all the days to get wildly ill. Nevertheless, I persist. The Disciple is pretty cool. I think if you're a Wu-Tang fan, it's a must-watch because it explores like an outer ring of the group that we don't hear talked about nearly as much. Like the bees and the affiliates and all the international crew of people who are associated with the group. So that was really the last big thing that I saw. I only saw 10 movies at the festival this year, which might be a low for me. Now, I have seen 27 movies that were at the festival, but so many of those were pre-screened or a can or whatever.

1:42:23Sean Fennessey:So I feel like I have my arms around the festival. And as I said, La Bola Negra, Club Kid, Minotaur, Fjord, those movies played great. My one sadness was my checkout time was really early, and so I had to miss the Making Marie Antoinette screening. I mean, I would have been really upset if you saw that and I didn't. Okay. Okay, so then you can feel fine about that. I mean, like, I would have been excited for you and I did see the new Paul Schrader. Oh, yeah. And it didn't come up. And it didn't come up here in this conversation. It didn't come up. It did not come up. Maybe the single worst performed movie I've ever seen.

1:42:58Wow. He had quite a weekend, Paul Schrader.

1:43:01Sean Fennessey:A lot of unfortunate comments. Yeah, but you also begin to wonder whether it's intentional. I've always felt that with him. Anyway, tough scene over there. Yeah. So I got to see that and you missed Marie Antoinette. Did you see Musk? Have you seen Musk? No, it wasn't shown at Telluride. Okay. What did you think? So, I mean, I'm mixed on it. It is comprehensive. It's four hours long. It should be comprehensive. And it's very convincing. And it's like deeply researched. I wouldn't say that there's a lot of new material in it, but it does a good job of bringing together all of the reporters who have been reporting on his antics for the past 20 years in all the, you know, the various tentacles that he has now because it's a little bit of everything.

1:43:52And so it synthesizes in a good way. And so if you have not been paying attention or, you know, it kind of puts everything in one place in what is it's being described as damning. And like, I think I already knew that, but it is very damning. It makes some structure. It uses two devices and they're kind of related. so um elon musk did not participate in this documentary obviously as many people connected with him um did not this um alex had me said that he had he like a lot of people said no out of fear or you know ndas or whatever the case may be um but so he does not have elon musk he does have all of the recorded things that Elon Musk has ever said, which is a lot because this is a man who likes press and attention.

1:44:48And so they make, because of Elon Musk's belief that we're all in a simulation and it's like a video game and whatever, blah, blah, blah. They make an Elon Musk avatar. And so they feed all of his quotes and then edit it together. You know, they edit, they use his quotes with his real words and this kind of like eerie purposefully fake weirdly handsomer than Elon Musk so I don't know what they were thinking about there um but like they it's like it's like Elon Musk uh like after a GLP one they've like really defined the cheekbones but but but it's also clearly like CGI and he's in a gaming chair and so he's this avatar is narrating the whole movie and then also the movie is structured as the video game, the simulation with Elon as the first person shooter.

1:45:40So they use a lot of video game animation.

1:45:43Sean Fennessey:Interesting. And I just personally, it's a clever idea and it does provide some structure and is obviously in keeping with some of the ways that Elon Musk thinks and talks about himself, which is the purpose of the documentary. It's just not fun to watch, in my opinion. Like, this is a purely aesthetic note that I was like, this is irritating and kind of junky looking. And that is possibly the point because I think those are also two words that you could use to describe pretty much everything Elon Musk has put into the world, including the Tesla 3, which like, just like, put buttons back on the car.

1:46:21What's wrong with you guys? So, I... But, you know, it's interesting. It's a storytelling choice, but aesthetically just really soured me on some of the experience. Um, I also, this is, this will be released in theaters, but like it's four hours. It's a classic, like watch at home when it's streaming over a couple of nights and you can watch all of it. And again, it's like very, very deeply researched and, um, and convincing, but I don't know. I just, the video game stuff, it's not for me in any, in any genre.

1:46:59Sean Fennessey:Understood. We thank you for your service of sitting through the whole film. I love Gibney's movies. You know, I've watched almost all of them, and I think he's really interesting. And the fact that we're talking about Everest and you can see everything and the vanguard of documentary filmmaking and what it is and where it's going. You know, he's somebody who I think modernized the form, got a lot of people interested in documentary. And then I think the world kind of like the commercial component of the world kind of passed him by while he held on to a lot of what most interested him in terms of interrogating systems and power.

1:47:32Sean Fennessey:right like that's really the big theme of a lot of his work and so i'm very i'm very interested in it um i wouldn't say i'm i'm like musk is kind of like murdoch to me where i'm like i know i don't really want to spend a lot of time in that world yeah though i although i would never underestimate that those people's power and influence and corrupting power and the programming of Inc. and Primetime and Musk all together, you know, there is a through line. One of the galling, but I guess interesting parts about Musk is that in the second half, when he becomes like a right wing, you know, media personality, they just have a lot of that footage.

1:48:17And like, I don't watch any of that stuff. I've never seen it. You know, you see tiny clips and it's not like I enjoy watching it, but as a, as the media analysis and the media through line and, and then does draw, I think in a stronger way than ink does the conclusions of what the media influence then can do to the rest of the way that we live.

1:48:40Sean Fennessey:Right. So it's good. But you know, there's an avatar. Okay. Good to know. Good. Only James Cameron can do that. I guess that's right I guess that's right let me just take a look at my Telluride list to make sure I've given you everything that you need to hear about I guess there were a couple of other movies that played here that seemed to do well like the only living pickpocket seemed to do well John Turturro was here and he was also similarly working through the stages of Oscar candidacy I did see a couple of really good documentaries as well beforehand one is called Zero Intention of Living Quietly, which is about Adam Pearson, the actor from A Different Man.

1:49:24Sean Fennessey:Yes. And I thought that was a really interesting story and really well told. I also saw a Carl Sagan documentary called We Are Made of Star Stuff. It was all about his life and pursuit that I thought was kind of revelatory and a little bit unsparing about some of the things that weren't so great in his life that I really appreciated. You know, Pavel Pawlikowski stood behind me online getting on the plane yesterday. Heard him speak. He's six foot four, a very strikingly handsome man. fatherland was there that's pretty much it you happy you went you ready to come home I'm ready to come home it'll be a long day tomorrow and then I don't know whether I'm going to have time to see any more movies before Thursday did you see that we just got a Resident Evil invite oh my god did we really yeah but now I got to figure out child care and all sorts of stuff it's okay so you know it begins it begins it begins again I've got a school function that evening that's not ideal Zach's in New York I don't know what I'm supposed to do gosh it ain't easy being us it's his turn no it's so easy being us well Amanda this is always one of my favorite episodes of the year so thank you for your service you'll be back later this week and we will talk about I think we should do it in two parts we can talk about a bunch of movies that we've missed from August and September some of which you've seen some of which I've seen we'll bounce back and forth recommend a few things you know there's been this really fascinating thing where like Coyote vs Acme has been a nice success you know the movie Buddy has been a nice success so like weirdly the end of August and beginning of September had a couple of interesting storylines we'll go over the results of the summer movie preview game which are effectively concluded now right because it's going to be September 11th and and then we'll also just hang out you know okay sound good?

1:51:15I know it sounds great I can't wait to be home

1:51:17Sean Fennessey:okay Safe travels, buddy. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work as the producer of this episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for production support. We'll see you later this week.