The 10 Best Movies of 2026 … So Far

12:52Joanna Robinson:But they're both trying to end on this like Hope Corps note. And for me personally at least, Hope Corps was more successful inside of Project Hail Mary. And I think it's something that will have that – I mean, I actually don't really care if it wins Oscars. I care about the Oscars in general, but like I care about that sporting actor narrative. But like I do think it might have a resurgence because they were so smart about the way that they marketed this from San Diego Comic-Con last year all the way through the debut. They made a ton of money. I think they really rolled it out very expertly. So I think they know they need to be like quiet for a minute.

13:25Joanna Robinson:Yes. And then come back and feel like a sort of remember how much you loved Project Hail Mary. Just get the puppet out there. Get Rocky out there. Get him performing it. Rocky on the perfect. Yeah, like I just, it's candy and a great story. That would be fun to see.

13:39Sean Fennessey:Also, Gosling, in addition to being a performer, is a producer of the movie, and so he stands to be a Best Picture nominee, assuming the film goes all that way. So I think you're right. I think it's going to go quiet until about September, October. They'll probably have a re-release of some kind. It is a movie theater movie. That's the thing, too. It's a real, like, one of the reasons why it worked so well is people going back multiple times to check it out on the big screen. What else? Anything else you want to say about it that really connected with you? I know you've done multiple podcasts about the film at this point.

14:06Joanna Robinson:I have. I've talked about it a lot. Do you see it as a movie that you want to show your kids? Is this like a kind of like enduring classic?

14:14Sean Fennessey:I toyed with it this time around. I think it's maybe a year or two early for Alice. It's somewhat complex at times and it takes a little while to get to Rocky. Yes. I was thinking about the kind of the first 30 minutes. But the Rocky of it all, I think my son would respond to. I think both would actually.

14:33Joanna Robinson:The note that I remember us having when we came out of it was just sort of like it was a little if it had just been a little shorter, a little tighter, it would have been an all time sort of classic.

14:42Sean Fennessey:I still feel that way.

14:42Joanna Robinson:Yeah. I kind of felt like the more time I saw it, I think, two other times in the theater and every subsequent time I saw it, I expected to feel the runtime more. And I didn't actually at the end of the day. So but also I saw it with like full excited audiences. And that's just a huge part of that whole experience as well.

14:59Sean Fennessey:Totally. And that I think has been that's been the trickle down effect of going to the movies for the last for the four months since since it first hit. Right.

15:05Joanna Robinson:Guess what? Movie theaters are great. Yeah. Seeing movies with people is great. And like the last couple of times I've I mean, certainly last year because my pick last year was Black Bag. Like, I think I've been talking about films that I watched at home alone. And it just like feels so different to talk about a big just so fun that we had a big blockbuster movie at the beginning of the year that we've got to we're staring down the barrel of a bunch this summer. And there's even more waiting for us in the fall. And that's just very exciting to me.

15:30Sean Fennessey:I totally agree. Joe, you're the best. What are you going to come back and talk on the show about? What are you targeting this fall?

15:37Joanna Robinson:I don't know. What are you going to have me on for?

15:39Sean Fennessey:Last year you called your shot with Hamnet.

15:41Joanna Robinson:Yeah. And that went really well for Al.

15:43Sean Fennessey:Well, you did great. I started crying.

15:48Sean Fennessey:Anything a PNC you look forward to? Am I looking at my shot right now?

15:50Joanna Robinson:I don't know. What are you anticipating? Oh, gosh. I don't know. I mean, my mind is so stuck in sort of the Odyssey's right around the corner and Spider-Man's right around, you know, in that sort of house of our way. So I have yet to migrate to Word of the Fall Oscar.

16:04Sean Fennessey:Are you hype on Spider-Man? Where's your head at? I'm medium hype.

16:09Joanna Robinson:I think Sadie Sink is incredible. And everything that I've heard from people who've seen it is that she's fantastic. And they're hiding her so much in the trailer. but I'm really excited for this as a potential sort of new chapter of this world that has felt like it's running on fumes for so long. So this is potentially an expansion. How do you feel about the mutants entering the MCU? I'm glad you clarified. Which mutant is she? Probably Jean Grey. Sure. And that's who Jennifer Lawrence and - No. Oh, and then Sophie Turner? Yes.

16:41Sean Fennessey:And Famke Jensen. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Different than the blue person.

16:45Joanna Robinson:Think about the redheads. Yeah. Okay. Good luck. Sure. I'm going to see it. Yeah, of course. And then I'm going to go on vacation. Where are you in Spider-Man in general? Bro, I get it. I mean, I really liked the last one when they pointed at each other. And then when Andrew Garfield saves Zendaya. But we were thinking of Emma Stone. I thought that was very beautiful. Listen, when it's a team, it's a good character. You know, like it makes sense to me. Am I, do I know anything else? Not really. Not really. Where are you in Clayface?

17:15Sean Fennessey:I'm extraordinarily excited I'm in the midst of attempting to book the first ever Tim Simons Alex Ross Perry conversation for that episode so that we can talk about gore effects

17:27Joanna Robinson:and also the pain of being an actor

17:30Sean Fennessey:which is what Clayface is about how are you feeling about it?

17:34Joanna Robinson:I'm really excited for it I'm like bizarrely very excited for it

17:37Sean Fennessey:it is actually it's sort of similar to Andor where it was sort of like you could have been doing this with superhero movies all along. Like we've been waiting so long for you to just be like, scale it down, tell a different kind of story. Do something weird. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. All right, Joanna. Thank you for being here. Prestige TV podcast, House of R. Correct. What else is cooking right now? Occasionally Big Picture. Big Picture, rewatchables. Yeah. See you soon.

18:00Joanna Robinson:See you soon. Bye.

18:06Sean Fennessey:Charles Holmes is here. It's been a minute. I'm sorry about that. What have you been up to? What's going on? I've been in the trenches the LA trenches it's getting wild out there we can barely go outside without having a breathing apparatus yeah yeah that's been tough that's been a struggle out here you just spent nine minutes extolling the virtues of your skin care regimen to Amanda and fitness routine which is germane to the film we're about to listen that's absolutely true my brother is still in New York and he does not work out and he helped his like 27 year old friend like move from Brooklyn to Harlem yeah and he's like I can't move my body.

18:41I'm like, dog, I'm 33 right now. I'm like, I can feel if I do not move my body. It's just going to do good. We're training for life. And so when the bounce house hit yesterday and I had to just throw children in like kettle balls one by one, I was ready. Were you ready? No.

18:58Sean Fennessey:I did my work. No, you didn't. Your daughter came over and said, please try. That's not true. I literally did get a turn. Are you doing back stretches? Every day. I stretch, but I am not on a fitness record right now, actually. For the first time, these last two years, I have stopped fully and need to figure something else out. Because I'm headed towards the back nine. You're not at the back nine yet. You're still Hale and Hardy. You could be performing in the film that you chose at this stage of your life. No. But for the film I chose, this was a late stage pick, but The Furious. Yeah. So why did you choose this movie?

19:32so it's funny before I chose this when I was talking to Jack I was originally going to pick Nirvana the band and to me even though one is a comedy and one is a martial arts film both of them share a quality that like I that makes me fall in love with movies all over again is like this is something that only these creators could do where it is like I think the furious was budgeted at something like 20 million and I was reading interviews and the director was like Like, we are not Tom Cruise. Like, leave jumping out of the helicopter to Tom Cruise. We are not Fast and Furious. We cannot film cars as great as they do.

20:08What do we have? And it's martial arts. It is the judo. It's the wushu. And to me, this is just, I thought I was going to go and think, like, this is such a Chad boy experience. And I'm like, I'm watching beautiful men at the height of their sportsmen, like, just lives doing ballet. Yes. It kind of reminds me, everybody's saying like the comp is the raid. I'm like, this almost reminds me of Crouching Tiger almost, where just the choreography is the story.

20:38Sean Fennessey:Yeah, the martial artistry is more the thing with this movie. There is a lot of, it is a fusion of those two kinds of films though, you know, because there's no gunfighting in this movie. This is not John Wick. This is not gunfoo. Yeah, it is hand to hand. But the choreography in the fight sequences is astonishing. I mean, it is really, really. But the thing about that is sometimes you can talk about this and I think it can be alienating where if you're not a martial arts movie expert or you don't know the history of that stuff, that sometimes it can be like a little boring or you think maybe you're thinking of feudal Japan or something.

21:11Sean Fennessey:But this is a contemporary set story. And it's also kind of funny in a way that Nirvana is funny, too. I mean, the way that it's choreographed is you're meant to be like jumping out of your seat and like chortling to yourself and applauding. there is there is a scene and it's been in the trailers where they're in a cage and there's no way in real life a fight would work like this but our main character is quite literally like building a skyscraper of beating guys and he's like stepping one over another and instead of having like a gun he's just just killing people with like a hammer like it's just the lizard part of your brain is like monkey beats other monkey with hammer cool it's like this is great it's a comedy, which there is, there's, you know, there's a line from, you know, like Three Stooges and then musical comedy and then people fighting each other, which is what can you use your body to do that is outrageous and unexpected and like not really true to life, not true, but but exhilarating.

22:14It was exhilarating. And even like it should not make sense that there is at the end there. The greatest fight I've seen in decades happens at the end. It's a five way fight. So great. You almost stand out of your seat when they split the frame in five.

22:28Sean Fennessey:I said the same thing on the show. That part is just so awesome. But to get there, you're just like, there's this big, hulking mass of a guy who basically wakes up and he's not a zombie. But it's like he just runs to the fight and you're like, what is happening? Yes. And then you just have like five guys who all have like grudges. but the movie has also done this phenomenal thing where it's like this is not taken where the whole thing is we are going all the way to rescue the daughter halfway through their movie they rescue the daughter they rescue the captured kids and you're like what's the rest of this movie and they're like oh no they solved the problem I don't actually give a fuck about these kids anymore I just want to see people beating each other up it's a set piece machine it's also like it does tip into Dada surrealist yeah Like it's not even really important what's happening with what matters is the poetry of violence that is on screen.

23:22Sean Fennessey:And that character that Charles is describing is like a bullet headed gigantic man who has is like axed to death and then comes back to life in alarming fashion. And then like biochemically knows which path to follow to find the fight that is happening. in a police station at the end of the movie. Yeah, this is a lot of fun. I'm not super familiar with G. Miao, the one, the silent star of the film, who's the father of the little girl. So neither was I. I'm going to butcher their names, so I'm not going to even. But the other two stars, one of them is one of the greatest martial arts artists. He's been in the Raid.

24:05Yeah, Joe Taslim. Yes, when you see him in a movie, you're like, this guy is the devil. and to defeat him, these characters are just going to have to.

24:15Sean Fennessey:Oh, you're referring to... He was the guy with the elbow and arrow. Yeah, whenever you see him in a martial arts movie, you're like, oh my gosh. This movie puts the death of Robin Hood to shame when it comes to bow and arrow battle. I will say that for sure. I was, this movie, I was enchanted. And it's also funny where a lot of times, because I was like, when I left the movie, I can tell it had an impression on me where it's like, usually I'm like, all right, I'm driving home. I'm going to listen to like a podcast. I'm going to listen to an album. And I drove home in silence because I just wanted to think, I was just like, what did I just watch?

24:51Like, I don't want, I kind of want to just bask in this memory of being like, oh, we can still do cool shit in movies. We can still do stuff where I'm like, I'm still kind of scratching my head. I'm like, I can watch all these videos of how they did this stuff. And still there is a magic of cinema of being, hey, some guys can just like dance and the dialogue is them fighting and beating the shit out of each other. And what more could you want at the age of 33? Did you see it with a full crowd? So I. Yeah, where I wanted to do a movie theater check in for you. So unfortunately, I watched it at one of my least favorite movie theaters, Regal Passio.

25:33Okay. Tough. Passio? Passio, how do you say it? I'm doing Paseo. I'm there a lot. You know? I don't know. And they have a large Kim Crawford port when you need it. That is not my favorite because I will say I also saw, what's the Catholic movie where they're all voting? Conclave. Conclave. I got there with you.

25:58I was there. It's beautiful. I saw, the reason I can never really go to that movie theater again is, I saw Conclave. When Trump was elected the second time and I went into the movie not knowing what was going to happen. And I left and I checked my phone and I was like, oh, the world. Because I walked out and it was just pure silence. No one was talking.

26:21Sean Fennessey:So you have a negative association with that. I have a negative association. And they have the school desk chairs now. Yeah. I don't really under. I feel contained. I like all movie theaters. This was a Thursday at 4 p.m. And while it was not packed, I did like I was doing a little bit of a like a sociological like study because it was grown men who were like in their 40s there. But all of them had brought their partners. Like there was just a date night, but it was also 4 p.m. And these men were like 40s and 50s. And I was like, this is a this is on a Thursday on a Thursday. It never for one second crossed my mind to bring Eileen to go see The Furious.

27:04Sean Fennessey:Not for a single second. I can't imagine a thing she'd enjoy less. I will say the partners, the women left the movie theater not seeming that enthused. And all the men were just like, bro, cinema. People standing and cheering in the middle of my movie theater. It was amazing. I yelped during the five. When they split it in five, I was almost about to just stand up and just keep standing. Yeah. So sorry that I we had Boy Corner. Listen, that's good. It's it's good when people make the highest version of their art instead of trying to do stuff in the middle that pleases nobody. I was trying to do the drama.

27:42Rob Mahoney picked it. Me too. But, you know, Mahoney gets me every time. The thing, the drama and the furious, I will just say ending on this would be a great double feature. Love it. Like to me, these are both speaking to the same things. Just the fight of the human spirit and then the fight of hammers drilling into foreheads. Charles Holmes. That's beautiful. Well done. Thank you. Oh, yeah. Thank y 'all.

28:08Sean Fennessey:Mallory Rubin is here. Hello. Hey, Mal.

28:10Joanna Robinson:Hi, guys. Great to be here with you.

28:12Sean Fennessey:When were you last with us?

28:15Joanna Robinson:Well, I mean, I know the answer, unfortunately, because I have Star Wars draft. Yeah. I've known many sleepless nights since. It was the Star Wars draft. And when I fall asleep at night, I see the Skywalker family tree. It's the last thing I see before I doze off and the first thing that pops into my brain when I wake up in the morning. Yeah. But in your version, the little tiny things are part of the tree, right? The droids are on the family tree. That's correct. No, no. I know what the droids are. What are the other ones? What was the real Hail Mary? Oh, the Middiclorians. Yeah, there we go.

28:44Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Well, I received a lot of feedback from people on the internet saying that I was right and you were wrong. Can I also say that I received a lot of feedback from people who thought that you were me? That is the tale as all of the same time. Yeah, that's sure. That is the tale as all of the same time for us.

28:58Sean Fennessey:Not all women have brown hair.

29:00Joanna Robinson:Which is amazing because we, exactly. I was going to say, we do both have brown hair, but we could not possibly have more different. Like, our interests and tastes are so different.

29:08Sean Fennessey:And you had two of the most important gals in the world to me. That's beautiful. I mean, thank you for saying that.

29:14Joanna Robinson:What an honor. Okay. What an honor. I miss you guys. We miss you. I love to pause with you. Do you want to lead with your complaints about the procedural aspects of this episode? Yes. Go ahead. Floor is yours. I have some complaints about the procedural aspects of the draft, which will, I think, have already aired when this airs, but we'll be recording after. So I'll save some of my ammo. No, I'm kidding. I can't wait. Where am I? We'll find out.

29:37Sean Fennessey:You're always very normal in drafts. I've noticed that about you. Yeah, I have three thoughts today. Calm, thoughtful. You roll with the punches.

29:43Joanna Robinson:I'm excited for the draft. I actually do think that I've been better served in general by a more mellow approach to the draft, which is what I will be bringing today. Oh, I'm sure.

29:52Sean Fennessey:I fully expect to encounter that momentarily.

29:54Joanna Robinson:What movie did you pick for this? So for this, I saw the text. And how did you pick it? Sean hit up the group chat, you know, and this is an annual tradition. I was in Sweden when you hit up the group chat. Were you actually in Sweden or were you in one of your 14 layovers? That's a good question. I think I was in Sweden when the group chat came and all of the many layovers and the many hours of travel when I was also not responding to texts came later and before. By the time I was able to catch up on the group chat, the exchange. The two movies that I would have really loved to pick. Project Hail Mary and 28 Years Later.

30:33Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Had been selected by two of my dearest friends and colleagues and now sworn enemies. Okay. Joanna and Chris. And then I thought, okay, we got a couple weeks. Sean is such a thoughtful planner, always ahead. Before we record, Amanda, a little feedback.

30:55Sean Fennessey:Feedback from Amanda. Surprising.

30:57Joanna Robinson:Nodding of the head. Shaking of, not a nodding, actually. A shaking of the head. I thought, you know what?

31:01Sean Fennessey:Thoughtful planner should be the title of my memoir.

31:03Joanna Robinson:That would be good. Did you consider that for your newsletter? Thoughtful planner?

31:06Sean Fennessey:No, I'm saving that. Back pocketing that one for down the road. In my 70s, you know, it's going to be.

31:12Joanna Robinson:Will you still be potting and crafting newsletters when you're 70? I hope so. Okay. Wow. I'll be on a beach. What about you? Same. I'll be on my own island. Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

31:24Sean Fennessey:I love the spirit of creativity. I love creating. Me too. I love sharing my thoughts with the world.

31:28Joanna Robinson:I like the spirit of creativity and I will be engaging with that by reading other people's books while I sit on a beach. Amen. I thought maybe by the time we pod, I will have seen Sheep Detectives, a movie that I hear is wonderful and feel sure I'll love. Didn't get a chance. Then I was like, you know what? We're recording this a week, a couple of days after Toy Story 5 comes out. Amazing. Conflicts last week. Couldn't make the screenings. Then I was out of town. This is just a nightmare.

31:49Sean Fennessey:You told me all the way up until the last minute last night.

31:53Joanna Robinson:I texted you 10 minutes before a Toy Story showing this weekend in the city I was in, which was not Los Angeles. And I was like, I might go. I was there for a dear friend's birthday celebration. So that would have been irresponsible. And I did not. I'm glad that you picked the experience of friendship rather than the movie, quote unquote, about friendship. I did actually end up sitting in the hotel room for those exact same hours doing other work for what it's worth. But then later I communed with other people and it was honestly wonderful. It was wonderful. Listen, then you got the lesson of Toy Story 5 without having to update your app.

32:22No, I haven't gotten to see it yet. I can't wait.

32:24Joanna Robinson:So I have chosen Disclosure Day, a movie that I thought would be worth including in the podcast and discussing. But I and I do think it's interesting to talk about, but I can't say like to quote Chase Serrano with my chest is actually my pick for best movie of the year so far. But I do think it is a movie that has given us something that is one of the best things that movie fans can have, which is debate and discussion with each other. And probably more crucially of all, an excuse to dive back into a creator's canon. So one of the things that I just loved about the run up to Disclosure Day was not that I need the excuse to do this, not that any of us do, but the excuse, the opportunity to revisit some of my favorite movies of all time.

33:05Joanna Robinson:Right. I was like, time to boot up Close Encounters. Yep. Which I did. Time to boot up BT, which I did. Time to boot up War of the Worlds. Not a movie I particularly enjoy, but I still did it. I was like, dare I rewatch Crystal Skull? And then I was like, you did this a couple years ago. Chill. Yeah. Chill. But that's a great—I don't actually think that that ultimately helped my reception of Disclosure Day, candidly. But it was a wonderful thing to just, like, engage in the discourse. Your favorite thing, online discourse, Amanda. I love to hear from other people. fellow cinephiles about where this movie fits and stands, not only in Spielberg's filmography overall, but like specifically the UFO films and the opportunity to really think about how much of that area of interest, which has spanned decades of his creative life, is like the aliens come to us here on Earth.

33:52Joanna Robinson:It was just an interesting moment to reflect on his relationship to that type of storytelling. I thought the movie was very propulsive and entertaining, and I also had a lot of notes on it. But it's been really fun to listen to you guys talk about it, to pod about it with Joe, to see it with my husband and talk about it with him. When I was out of town this weekend with friends, it was a big topic of conversation with people. And so that's just been kind of a neat experience as a movie fan. And so that is my pick because I could not pick those other movies.

34:19Sean Fennessey:I appreciate you picking it here. We had such an interesting experience. We saw the movie together. We did, yes. The three of us and Joanna. and there was an unusual series of scrums of people exchanging notes after the screening that we went to, which is pretty rare, I would say, at these screenings. You sometimes get like maybe one polite two-minute conversation, but people are like, no, let's do a 15-minute, 20-minute breakdown of how we really felt about this.

34:45Joanna Robinson:The podcasts were happening in real time.

34:47Sean Fennessey:They were. Yeah. And you could tell right away, this is going to be really divisive, this movie, because there were some people who walked out. I remember looking at one very prominent journalist who was heading to the bathroom and he was just like, Nope. Correct. And I was like, am I crazy? No. Yeah. And so it has been funny that it has gone into the blender. I think as often with these things, like heavily marketed movies from huge famous filmmakers, if they don't land certain parts of the story, people get very, very reactive. And there's been a lot of really negative reaction to the movie.

35:19Sean Fennessey:That's probably going to subside over time. A lot of Spielberg movies also tend to get reclaimed pretty quickly. you mentioned not loving War of the Worlds which is a movie that I really loved at the time though I do think it also similarly has a lot of script flaws also a David Kemp script I think a lot of times what happens with Spielberg movies and we talked about this in the 21st century conversation is his personal kind of philosophy and perspective plus the filmmaking chops tends to outlive the this story annoyed me components of a lot of his movies especially the second half of his film career movies.

35:57Sean Fennessey:Crystal Skull is one of the precious few that I'm like, no, like I just can't get on board with this.

36:01Joanna Robinson:Wild film.

36:02Sean Fennessey:Yeah, very weird movie. But um.

36:03Joanna Robinson:Fun to rewash.

36:04Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I don't know. I've only seen it one time though. You've seen it a second time.

36:07Joanna Robinson:I've seen it twice as well. Yeah. And I mean, I confirmed my experience and in terms of I think the filmmaking aspects of it are electrifying and I learned more about the old alien, you know, and continued to think what I thought about that alien.

36:26Sean Fennessey:Jim Alien? No, it's Alien 17, right? Jimmy. In Vivo 17? Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. I think that's the name of my TV.

36:35Joanna Robinson:You've really absorbed all of the canon from Where are you at on aliens? Noah and Hugo. I'm pro-alien in general. I enjoyed your discussion with each other about whether your entire creative and professional and personal lives would halt in full if aliens were revealed to us. I believe aliens are out there. It feels impossible that they're not. Okay. I enjoy the genre, obviously. You think they're here on Earth? Currently? Hmm. Good question. What would you do? What would you do if Disclosure Day happened? So that was obviously, I know this is a podcast where we're supposed to pick movies that we really liked.

37:09Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Like, talk about Wabi Lai. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the conclusion of the film was, like, where it really lost me, honestly. The idea that, like, first of all, I think the local news broadcast news element, but also the idea of the public response. I understand the intention behind it. No disrespect to Courtney Grace. Who should? I hope they're starting that supporting actress campaign. Let's go. You know, that was another. I'm glad you said that because that was another reason I thought this was a worthy selection for inclusion in this podcast is because so many of the performances were really wonderful.

37:35Joanna Robinson:Like the Emily Blunt performance in this movie is amazing. Just amazing. I hope it stands the test of time. And I think it is undeniably one of the best and most compelling performances of the year so far. So that's really fun. I liked watching Colin Firth bite down on the mouth guard. For me, that was compelling. Not sure if you had any thoughts on that. Do you prefer Colin Firth with the brown eyes or the blue eyes? I like him. You know, I'll quote Mark Darcy and say just like just the way. You know that that was actually do you know that that was a literal reading at my wedding? That speech?

38:09Joanna Robinson:I would expect nothing less from you and Zach, two of the purest souls. That was one of my choices. Yeah. Great stuff. I mean, Bridget Jones is a sacred text. It's a sacred text, obviously. 25 years this year, I believe. That's a film? Is that possibly true? The film? I think it's 2001. Yeah, books earlier. Yeah. We are fucking old. Mm-hmm. We're old. I would like to think that Aliens, that it would be pleasant. Like, I like E.T. I loved Project Hail Mary, my actual favorite movie of the year so far, Rocky the Goat. But, you know, Joe and I talked about this in the pod. It's like we covered, you know, not so long ago, Three Body Problem, the Netflix adaptation of a really hallowed fantasy trilogy.

38:50Joanna Robinson:Spoiler, it is. And the thesis on which those books exist is a much darker read on the inevitability of a certain type of conflict if extraterrestrial life not only existed, but if we were capable, if species and races from different areas of the universe were capable of interacting with each other. So part of what I love about the genre in general is the fact that there are so many different ways of engaging with what an interaction and encounter like this might look like. I thought that, especially because so much of the Disclosure Day run-up was really secretive and guarded, that there would be maybe a different degree of the thesis of what this might mean, other than the aliens are here and maybe it's okay and the problem is actually the people, which I think has been present in the text before.

39:40but you know

39:41Joanna Robinson:propulsive action it's an entertaining two and a half hours in the theater I saw it with the gen pop the second time around the theater was loving every second of it people were whooping they stood and clapped at the end

39:53Sean Fennessey:did you did you see the Fablemans I did

39:58Joanna Robinson:oh yeah absolutely at home not in the theater but I watched it at home yeah the one thing

40:03Sean Fennessey:that I have been because I've seen obviously all the discourse about Disclosure Day as well naturally in fact it's come directly my direction a few times um but you know the the movie is certainly marketed as a movie about aliens and what if aliens came to earth that's not really what the movie's about right like the movie is very obviously about like what happens to you when you're a little kid and why do you become the way that you are and how it haunts you and then maybe solves you or figures you or it helps you find a clearer path to your life yeah that's a very heady concept that's not one, it's not marketable at all.

40:38Sean Fennessey:Two, it's the kind of thing that you say to somebody who hates a movie and they're like, fuck off, which I understand. I mean, it's a little bit about aliens, though. Yeah, it is, sort of. And they roll one out on a modified wheelchair at the end. It is certainly about aliens. It's about our culture's interest in the idea of aliens. We don't spend a lot of time with those aliens in this film. It's not like E.T. E.T. is about an alien. 15 minutes of footage of them just being like and here's another thing about aliens and they upload it to the server. Jackie Gleason and Dick Nixon in the footage you know they're looking at stuff.

41:15Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

41:15Sean Fennessey:Dick Nixon you're a big fan?

41:16Joanna Robinson:I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. No. No I'm not. Are you a Nixon guy? Big Nixon guy? No.

41:24Sean Fennessey:No I'm not a fan of his policies or the way that he ran his administration. Okay. Seemed like kind of a mean spirited guy.

41:30Joanna Robinson:Brave take.

41:31Sean Fennessey:A little hateful at times. Really resentful. I thought maybe a bigot. Yeah. Seemed like based on some of the secret recordings. One thing I don't understand, recording yourself. I've never understood this. I mean, this is also a note I have for basically every single spy or CIA plot when they're like, well, here's the file that shows all of this. Why? If you're a nefarious government entity, don't keep files. Just don't. Yeah, just burn them. Yeah. Or don't write it down.

42:05Joanna Robinson:There we go. This is always one of the things like what if they recorded and committed to the record that someone can find, but also what did they name their shadowy organization? You know, putting the villainous intention right there in the name. This is another recurring note. WardX. What does it stand for? I'll give you$100 right now if you can do it. I don't have$100 on me, but I can bet about you. Waived is the first word. Yeah. I just be clear. I'm not going to give you$100, but. Do you carry around$100 bills? No. And he doesn't anymore. No. and he stopped carrying cash.

42:36Sean Fennessey:Let's see how much money I have right now. This is how we're going to wrap this segment. I do feel like if we could introduce like a throwing money down on the table element to that that could be interesting. Let's count it right now. You don't need real money.

42:48Joanna Robinson:You could use like imperial credits like a Star Wars prop. I, for a while, until Juliet learned his name, I was offering. This is, I thought you said you were done with this.

42:56Sean Fennessey:20, 40, 60, 80, 100. Well, this is his dad shit. 120, 140, 160, 180, 200. Oh, there we go.

43:03Joanna Robinson:There we go. See? What is that for? Are you like tipping the valet with a crisp hundred? This is a Long Island nonsense. I'm a man of many interests. Do you carry that around because you're like future-proofing? You believe the apocalypse will come?

43:16Sean Fennessey:You never know when you're going to get in a jam.

43:18Joanna Robinson:Venmo won't work. You'll need a cold hard cash.

43:20Sean Fennessey:You never know when you're going to get in a jam.

43:22Joanna Robinson:How often are you going to the ATM?

43:24Sean Fennessey:Not often. Okay. Because I'm not often in a jam. Okay. I'm trying to live a jam-free life.

43:28Joanna Robinson:Okay.

43:29Sean Fennessey:But every once in a while, jam.

43:30Joanna Robinson:You have not been lured into a Hansel and Gretel fairy tale-esque cottage in the woods as an impressionable 10-year-old and looked into the eyes of a CGI deer, fox, cardinal, raccoon? Hasn't happened to you. Wouldn't happen to you.

43:47Sean Fennessey:And yet I feel such a kinship with those characters who were lured in that way. Part of the reason why I liked this movie.

43:52Joanna Robinson:You do often feel kinship with the chosen ones. So, yeah.

43:55Sean Fennessey:Mal, any closing thoughts here? This was a deranged segment of this episode.

43:58Joanna Robinson:You know, I'm looking forward to catching up on more movies. Let me say that. Yeah, it feels like there's a lot of good cinema this year that I haven't seen. Do you think that if I had seen Sheep Detectives or Toy Story 5, I would have picked one of those? I do. Yeah.

44:08Sean Fennessey:They're both very much in your zone.

44:10Joanna Robinson:Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing those movies. Let's just almost like pretend I have seen and picked one of those. But I enjoyed discussing Disculature Day with you, and I look forward to the continuing discourse on this podcast. You know, I mentioned this to you, but one of my favorite experiences recently was looking back in the Big Pick archives, because Joanna and I have been doing a Christopher Nolan rewatch heading into the Odyssey. we uh we're doing Tenet obviously a movie that you two uh are engaging within the present timeline as well but as I told Sean I looked back into the archives and you guys podcasted about it five times in the year 2020 yeah there was not a lot going on and we were stuck in our houses and or in the car where we watched it in San Diego it was wonderful yes wonderful to remember those times how many times do you think you'll podcast about disclosure day before it's all said and done well this is three something to think about so it will be done for a while yeah okay

44:58Sean Fennessey:We will be podcasting about Tenet once more. I know. In the great city of Toronto in July. And we will be seeing the movie on a big screen for the first time, I believe. Oh, that's exciting. With a group of people. Well, since the drive-thru. The drive-thru was a large screen. It was a big screen, but it wasn't a movie theater experience, I guess is the way to put it. Anyhow, Mallory Rubin, thank you. You're the best.

45:22Sean Fennessey:Van Lathan is here. What's up? What's up, friends? How are you? I'm fantastic. How are you guys doing? Very good. Thank you for being here. Always. So I know what you chose. Yeah. It's a film that Amanda hasn't seen. That's true. It's a film that means something to us. Yeah, especially. What movie did you pick? Masters of the Universe. Is this truly, deeply, madly your favorite movie of 2026? No. Okay. Okay. how did you happen to wind up on this podcast talking about Masters of the Universe then Rob chose the drama yeah is that you also would have picked the drama I would have picked the drama me too yeah so I'll say this and this is no shot to Masters of the Universe literally five people have said I wanted to pick the drama that's so funny so just watching the drama like at the Grove with a full audience was phenomenal this is gonna sound so stupid to so many people but But when Endgame came out, everybody at the theater was ooh and ah and all of that stuff.

46:27The drama had nobody flying around, no capes, no powers. And people were just like that. People were just like that. They were buzzing. Buzzing, this amazing communal experience. A lot of people had a lot of political things to say about the movie and some of the subject matter that it dealt with. I at no point bristled at anything. I fell into the story. It was awesome. It was by far my favorite movie of the year. But if I couldn't have it, this next one is right there. It was great for me to sit down and not only relive my childhood, but kudos to the filmmakers of Masters of the Universe for attempting to inject some contemporary storytelling into this thing that I watched when I was a kid.

47:15They tried to take care of it. They did not do a perfect job. a lot of people saw the movie didn't like it I actually really enjoyed it and at the end it gets to the point to where Adam becomes He-Man and I was captivated by that we've been talking a lot about toys today you know just in our own lives our kids lives He-Man toys were important to you? He-Man because there's only one He-Man there's only one He-Man but then the other masters of the universe were also are they all masters? They don't really explain it I think they're the masters of the universe. I think that he may... What universe?

47:52Sean Fennessey:Well, this is complicated, you know. This was a toy line that was refashioned out of the spare parts of a lot of different kinds of stories. Yes. I've listened to Griffin Newman explain this. Barbarian stories, sword and sandal stuff, a lot of high fantasy plus high tech. that eventually became an animated series that I assume you watched with as much religion and fervor as I did. And there's not a lot of lore explication on the animated series. I feel like that stuff came with later iterations of it. I think when we were looking at it, it was, even when She-Ra came along, it was like, oh, Skeletor used to be a member of the Horde, and he's not in the Horde anymore.

48:39He left. She-Ra was kidnapped. I'm like, oh, there's more? There's more story? It was like a bigger thing. A bigger world.

48:45Sean Fennessey:A bigger world. But it's also multiple comic books telling different strands of the story that don't agree with each other. Like it's kind of a mess. It's primarily a toy company's idea of a story instead of a creative single person like Jack Kirby and Stan Lee being like, this is. They did it backwards. This character. They started with the toys. Exactly. But also, they did it backwards, but they were also doing it and undoing it. Because the toys came with a comic line like he's talking about, like a mini comic, right? But that mini comic was sometimes a little bit too straightforward and violent for what worked for the cartoon.

49:24So sometimes they would be like, okay, well, this is on the mini comic with the toys, but the cartoon they were using to sell the toys, well, we can't do that on there. like Skeletor at first was this like really mean evil guy and then midway through the first season they go this is better if he's a little bit funny

49:40Sean Fennessey:he's kind of funny he's kind of like a Paul Lind like fabulous you know goof yeah and so you're 8, 10 younger for me but yeah oh you're like 4 I'm like 4 or 5 so you're not aware of any of this you're just taking what you're being given it's on the TV it's the wizard brain like that muscle man looks cool thing right it's like on TV and it's in Toys R Us rest in peace to my giraffe same for me excuse me

50:07Mallory Rubin:where do you think I got my Tamagotchis I don't know I don't know what's going on so it's there and it's there and then that's it all the other stuff like I wasn't aware of it

50:16Sean Fennessey:but like the movie like kinda does it does scratch that boyhood feeling I felt I mean I think the movie is very flawed and like kind of a mess at times but it weirdly takes chances with a property as stupid as He-Man right and makes does a couple of fun things and when he lifts the sword and says I have the power you're moved it got me man I know it got you we saw you right after the screening yeah it does and like obviously there's such a large part of that that has to do with childhood but honestly it's also something that's so earnest you can like mess it up like watching him access this ancient power and his whole thing changed now that he's the champion he has powers to go back out and stamp out all of these people that are trying to take over his kingdom but it's not enough it's not enough because he led a contemporary life where might doesn't make right so he's got to do it a different way they tried to do that in the movie they got there enough for me but once again you guys hear from me all the time on here i get if you didn't like it it's not fucking you gotta stop reading the reddit page no i love them don't fuck that just no you i won't live in your truth which is that this meant something to you and i haven't seen it and we're here together sharing our feelings and they don't matter.

51:36I'm going to cap for the Reddit page. I'm going to cape for the Reddit page. You guys have the best Reddit page because at least on your Reddit page, there is some discussion about movies. If you go to the Higher Learning Reddit page, it's like, man, it's getting fat. No, you're not. I'm losing weight. But at least on you guys' Reddit page, there is some discussion of the movies. Now, no Reddit page is without its toxicity. I get it. But what I'm saying is, I don't want people, I want people to understand, even on the Midnight Boys, I want people to know that, like, I go to these movies to enjoy them and celebrate the stuff.

52:14Sometimes the movies are so bad that you can't do that. But that's rare for me. And also, the higher you aim, the further you have to fall. So there are some films I go to that are supposed to be really important movies and I'm like, that's a high degree of difficulty. Like, I just don't get it, right? But if we kicking shit and flying, you should be able to make that be good. With this movie, He-Man works. Adam doesn't work as well as He-Man does. Skeletor, unfortunately, guys, really works. Yeah, Jared, that was fine, his performance. Unfortunately, Skeletor really works. What was that movie he was in with Denzel?

52:56Sean Fennessey:It was The Little Things. He played a serial killer who he was unable to capture. It was a very bad film. He was nominated for a Golden Globe for his performance. Yeah. So that's why when the people still thought he was kind of like a serious actor that every performance had to be like taken note. Award worthy. Yeah. But in this, if Skeletor works, the movie will probably work. But I get why people didn't fuck with it. If the drama is not my favorite movie of the year, this is my favorite movie of the year. And there's a lot of things going on. I have been like evangelizing the movie. like retweeting stuff go see He-Man nobody went but I mean yeah it bricked incredibly hard oh it's a brick yeah it's a brick number one the reason why this movie bricked to me is this is old this is a movie that like this is for people in their 40s that's what it is right and it probably should have been made in like 2015 or 2010 2012 2012 if they were gonna do it early in the superhero we're dredging up this old IP stuff right so it should have been when we were in our 30s when we were in our 30s we could have been excited about it.

53:58Our 20s. Yeah, maybe. But like now, these kids don't give a fuck anymore. Stay with us. I'm watching the movie.

54:04Sean Fennessey:I was like, yo, I'm 40 fucking three. I'm 43. I'm looking at this shit. I'm like, yo, this shit was... This is 40 years ago. I fell in love with this character. My mom goes to see the movie and my mom calls me. She's like, I know you saw He-Man. Remember? I know you love He-Man. You see He-Man? They did all the stuff. He did. He had the sword. He did the whole thing. Remember that? He-Man? I loved it. But my mom loved it because it reminded her of me watching it. Yeah. You know? So that plus the fact that it made me appreciate Barbie a little bit more. Obviously, Barbie has this generational kind of hold over culture.

54:44But Barbie is a well-made, incredibly active.

54:47Sean Fennessey:It is totally a credit to Barbie, the movie, and how hard it is to do what Greta did with that movie. Yeah. And like a master filmmaker taking that property and making it this treatise on who you are, what you are, what it means to be that. And that was dope. He-Man did not do that. I said this on our episode, but I mean the way that Barbie is very much about femininity and being a woman in contemporary times, this movie is trying to be the same thing for being a man. It's trying to explore masculinity, toxic masculinity, sort of like the role of politesse in culture and what is safe and what is not safe to say.

55:24Sean Fennessey:and like it's a cool idea and it never really works. Right. I will say I could, there are parts in the movie, like there's one stretch in the film where Skeletor comes into He-Man's world and it is kooky, kind of scary, hilarious, and incredibly effective. And you could see in places where you can see the seams of the movie a little bit. You can see a couple of the rewrites. What this could have been. What it could have been if the film would have let itself be that because like that part legitimately is the thing that made you go, oh my God. I had the same feeling. Like we're having fun. Like this movie is actually fun and then it ends on a high and you're good.

56:10But I had a lot of fun in He-Man. We're doing this now. The fun is still around the corner, which is interesting. So why are we doing it now? The second person asked. Because this is in the scriptures of the big picture. It is written. that at the end of June, really right around the July 4th holiday, the middle of the year, we do the first half. It's mathematical.

56:33Sean Fennessey:Oh, I see. It's not because we're trying to get something in before the Odyssey or Spider-Man or anything like that. It's just this is the midway point. We do it at the midway point. We'll do it again at the end of the year. And by the way, not just, I should say, not just the drama was taken. Like some other movies that I saw were taken as well. Go ahead. Speak on it. The Obsession. Yep. I took that. So I don't like movies like that. I normally do not. Same. That was fucking brilliant, man. I agree. And that's why I picked it. And that's what I'm going to. What I want to talk about is just like how it has.

57:06Sean Fennessey:Broken containment. Yes. Yeah. And like an opened a genre to people who are very hardcore, not a part of that genre. So the lady from the movie. Indiana already. It's from Superman and Lois. She is. and so I see her and I'm like I watched her I watched religiously Superman and Lois is actually a really underrated Superman story it's like actually does a lot of cool things Superman and Lois move back to Smallville and they're raising kids it's really interesting the way they go about it but you know see her in it she's blowing up she's amazing in the movie and by the way I didn't know that the movie had a supernatural pull to it before I saw it I didn't know that there was actually a whole wishing thing kind of reminds you of what was the Stephen King joint where the guy is thinner yeah where he also a monkey's paw tail yeah right so like the man who is cursed with thinness cursed with thinness and at first it's like oh my god I'm losing weight and then after a while I'm losing weight but like I thought that movie was phenomenal totally perfect moves at an incredible speed and like for I don't know as much about the director as everyone else but like on some Jordan Peele type like level when I'm babbling but when I first saw Get Out everyone talked about the script and the script was phenomenal I was like as a director though did you see how amazing he could craft tension and Obsession does the same thing I feel very similarly about um well we'll talk about when we talk about Obsession but we're going to jump off of that point because we're going to talk about Obsession next fan thank you thank you thank you for repping for He-Man yeah we got the power and we got a sequel.

58:46We're not over yet. He-Man, She-Ra, Orko, Eternia, we all coming back, bitch. They got, every time you order, every time you order something from Amazon Prime, you make it the next He-Man movie. We're not stopping.

59:00Sean Fennessey:Thank you, man.

59:07Okay,

59:07Sean Fennessey:the Mean Pod author, Adam Naiman, is here. The author of a forthcoming new book, Adam, before we hear about your favorite film of 2026 so far. You want to plug the news? Yeah, it's a book about cinematic history and relationships of fathers and daughters. The title, which I've read, is not going to be great for SEO because it is a misspelling. It's fine. It's dead. SEO is dead. You know, Dautour Theory. I figure a book about fathers and daughters in film should be titled with a dad joke. Who knows if the book will end up with that title? Who knows all the movies that will be in it because they will keep making movies for the next year or so.

59:45but certainly you know movies like After Son or Trap or Tony Erdman or even One Battle After Another you know these are relevant contemporary films on this title and I'm really trying to deal satirically and a little critically with that idea of the girl dad mostly because I hate how easy it is to perform that and I try as a father of daughters I hate the as a father of daughters thing because I recognize where it comes from so this will be this will be a fun book starring, you know, a long history of movie, movie, movie girl dads, some of whom are sociopaths. Yeah. A lot of whom are sociopaths, in fact.

1:00:25Sean Fennessey:It's true. Congratulations to you on the news. And I'm excited about the sequel, Boy Mom, that you'll be working on. Sure. How's that going? I would say there are three movies in the canon. Let's see, we've got Dune. Yep. Dune Part 2. Anyone? Psycho. Psycho, sure. Oh, yeah. Big? He has a mom? He sure does. I mean, I'm sure he has a mom, sure. He certainly does have a mother. But I don't really remember her. He has two mommies when you consider Elizabeth Perkins. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, it's exciting for all of us. Okay, Adam, let's talk about your favorite film of the year. This is for a film we have not yet discussed on the show, but we will, the guest of this episode will actually be talking about their film as well.

1:01:09Sean Fennessey:So what did you choose? yes it's a three-hour latvian film shot from the point of view of a pigeon with rabies no you know it's uh it's uh maddie's maddie's secret by john early which i think is the film it's the film i wanted to talk about the most and not because it was left over you know i'm low on the pecking order so the email and they're like well these seven films are being discussed already and that's fine number one yeah it's okay you know i think i'm i'm seventh chair you know there's the third chair debate with the great american playwright tracy let's a great playwright and uh the great american non-playwright chris ryan you know i'm just i'm resigned to like seventh seventh chair but this would have been my first pick uh which is a john early's maddie secret what uh what is it why did you choose it why why did this movie move you because it's very funny and you know noted noted for noted for my own you know uh you know a sense of humor no it's a beautiful film and it's a movie that's created some interesting discourse recently i say this respectfully around the idea whether it's a parody right because i think parody and satire and pastiche are often interchangeable which is you know a function of discourse and camp is a camp is a hard thing to talk about you know can camp be intentional is there such a thing as intentional camp does camp kind of have to be hapless or helpless and john is such a smart filmmaker i I mean, I don't know if people, I'm sure people on the pod are familiar with John Early's work.

1:02:35He's in that Taylor Swift video. You know, I think that's the thing he was seen for the most. But, you know, a stalwart sketch comedian with his comedy life partner, Kate Berlant. Really good actor. He's on Search Party. And as it turns out, a pretty brilliant filmmaker. This is the only movie I've ever seen to crossbreed Todd Haynes and David Wayne together. I think it was for Ringer. I said something last fall at TIFF, like Wet Hot May December, which I think is like the most succinct way of describing what he's doing here. Good. But it's a movie that spiritually resides kind of in like the after school specials or not even after school specials, like lifetime movies or TV movies of the 80s.

1:03:13There's a very particular film, which I still haven't seen, called Kate's Secret, which is a kind of, you know, diary of a bulimic housewife or an anorexic housewife film. and the real balancing act of this movie which while it's funny i find quite serious maddie's secret is how do you conjure up that kind of movie that kind of like social problem movie or that sort of you know psychological problem movie talk about how it tends to sensationalize and flatten these issues show that you kind of love that sort of movie and that for john early at least it's quite formative and sort of just make it like make it pretty straight ahead while kind of making fun of it at the same time that's very tricky and on top of that john plays the lead part in a drag performance which he says is inspired by actors like divine who you know acted for john waters i think that you know john waters is part of this movie's dna certainly because john early has said it so many times a movie like showgirls is part of this movie's dna so i'm just automatically inclined to be like, oh, this movie is inspired by showgirls and Paul Verhoeven.

1:04:18You know, it's obviously good. But it's one thing to be inspired by those people or put filmmakers like that in their letterboxd for, you know, lots of Verhoeven showing up in people's letterboxd for these days. But like to understand what they do is harder. And I think that this movie on top of being funny and silly and having a like who's who of alt comedy people in it. Connor O'Malley is in this movie for like about five minutes and every fucking syllable is gold. I mean, he's so funny in this film. He retains Funniest Man on Earth title through this film. Funniest Man on Earth. I believe at one point he's playing the like, not the CEO, but like he's in charge at this food influencer comedy.

1:04:53And I remember at TIFF, the scene where he just looks at everyone and goes, let's make some content. I'm like, this is screen grab gold. You know, when this movie becomes pirate as a screen. Yeah, let's make some content, you know. But the idea of this would be foodie, she's working in the trenches kind of as a dishwasher at this social media food influencer company and overnight she kind of becomes maddie becomes this great chef because she's really talented and he has an ear for dialogue in this movie where they're not jokes but everything is funny like at one point maddie says to her husband like i was just trying to make my husband dinner and now i'm in post-production you know because her stuff's being uploaded to to instagram and um You know, I don't know what you guys thought of it.

1:05:41I think you both liked it. But the trick that he pulls here of making something that is sincere and in quotes in the same time, starting with his performance and extending to almost every element of the way the movie looks, how music is used, how references are deployed. I adore it. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of year left, but this will end up on the year end list for me. I just I think it's wonderful.

1:06:05Sean Fennessey:I liked it, too. I think it's going to be a little bit of a what's it for your common moviegoer because it is such a blend of so many different things that John obviously has a lot of adoration for. But I think it plays pretty well as a pure social media food company satire. I think that that stuff, which is played very broadly but very funny, is effective. But it is really much more of an emotional crisis character piece. And maybe in a way that you won't see coming about halfway through the movie. Yes, which is played, if not for laughs, but at least in a knowing way, which to Adam's point is is both parody, but also very emotionally affecting.

1:06:49I thought this was a movie that understands the world of women very well and also understands watching it and knowing that everything is absurd and you would rather not be a part of all of it and you get slurped into it at the exact same time and you can't escape. So, you know, incredibly well observed. I am also a huge John Early fan. Very funny. But I loved it. And I do think it is very specific. You know, it has the content jokes and the CEO jokes and the and it is also about eating disorders. And there's a wonderful girl interrupted send up in the middle of it. So, you know, it has references that you might not understand on like a like a very specific level.

1:07:40But I think it plays pretty smoothly. Yeah. You know, it's not impenetrable.

1:07:45Sean Fennessey:No, I agree. And I think all those different sources that you're talking about, Adam, he treats all of them fairly and with respect. Like he treats Kate Seeker, which I have seen starring Meredith Baxter. Yeah. With a lot of respect. He's he's actually not. The only thing he's parodying is the culture around some of those things. But the actual films, he's paying as much homage to Douglas Sirk as he is to the Lifetime movie and not saying like, this is something stupid you should make fun of, which is a really difficult balancing act, I think. And he pulls it off. Well, and like, you know, I bow to nobody in my love for David Wayne, for instance, who I think has a similar satirical project sometime in a movie like They Came Together, which is one of the funniest movies I've ever seen, where the link between, you know, contempt and affection and knowledge and engagement is very thin.

1:08:34But the difference is, and this isn't a knock on David Wayne, like his movies are not what you would call visually beautiful. You know, a movie like Role Models or Wanderlust kind of looks like a glossy mainstream comedy and Wet Hot looks cheap because it was. Maddie's Secret is beautiful. Like, color-coded cinematography. You mentioned Douglas Sirk. I mean, that's not just a throwaway. I mean, Douglas Sirk, Todd Haynes, you know, Almodovar, even Verhoeven. These are, like, incredibly technically proficient filmmakers. And the fact that it's that good-looking and expressive visually on a basically homemade movie budget or what I understand.

1:09:08And the fact that there was so little oversight on the movie is I imagine how they got away with, as Amanda was saying, such a specific tone. Like, this is not a movie where you get notes, you know? Like, there's no notes on Maddie's Secret. Like, you're either in on making this movie, you know, or you're not. And I will say, I mean, Kate Berlant, who's, you know, worked with him a lot, and she's in other stuff, too. I loved her for, like, about two seconds in the moment this year. I got so excited when Kate Berlant showed up in that film. in this movie I just find the act of her like walking into rooms and sitting down and just like being on screen helplessly funny I think like every I think like every time she breathes in this movie it's funny and it's not a lead performance but she's kind of on screen the second most I think and she's demented and great she's the best friend she also and which leads to the best friend dancing sequences which are just absolutely essential I forgot about that they're just sublime

1:10:03Sean Fennessey:I also really loved claudio daugherty who i hadn't seen in something in a really long time but she plays sort of the rival influencer but she was on that netflix series love um and was so so funny on that show and playing basically the exact opposite character she was the warmest sunniest funniest person on that show and she is um quite quite demonic um and an interesting representation of a certain kind of person who is rising to power in the media right now um well adam that's a this is a great recommendation, man. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I, and I'm not the only one that's been very well. It's been very, been, been very well reviewed and I, I'm interested to see how it, how it does.

1:10:42Sean Fennessey:Thanks for joining us. And thanks for caring for your millions and millions of daughters. We appreciate you, Adam. Yeah. They, they asked, they're like, well, my older one is like, am I going to be in the book? And I'm like, do I have permission? Sort of, you know, she thinks that this is going to be an excuse, Leah, to watch other movies she's not allowed to watch because part of what I want to write about is this idea that screen time isn't something that I want to keep separate. Like when you watch movies for a living, you guys both know about this, you know, Sean, how much of your life have you sent just, you know, sitting and staring in front of a screen in a basement?

1:11:15I want to pass that on or else what was the point? So she's excited now because she's excited now. She's like, you know, we're going to get to watch stuff together. And yet they're not father-daughter films. She asked if this meant we could watch Texas Chainsaw Massacre. and I how old is she? I said no nine and a half but she listens and she absorbs getting close right isn't what do we think is 11 just the kind of like fuck it 11 is just the fuck it zone because she's going to find a way to see it without your

1:11:43Sean Fennessey:your consent by 11 I mean that's what I was doing when I was 10 11 was just seeing things and not asking my parents if I could in fact with access to things like a Plex and various streaming things it is only scrupulous honesty that has kept her from doing this already I live in both fear and hope of the moment where she's like, guess what I watched? Because that's what I was doing when I was 10 with the VHS shelf. But, you know, that hasn't happened yet. I can't wait for what horrible thing it's going to be. This book is going to make Adam even more lovable. It's going to make him one of the most beloved figures in the film watching community.

1:12:22as long as the like small percentage of the big picture listeners who just for some reason seem to hate my guts you know uh don't don't you know don't don't like it then i'll be happy welcome to the club you should never make to their home adam don't worry you should never make never never make all the people happy all uh all all the time but you know i love uh i love big picture listeners very much except for the ones who just seem you know hopeless.

1:12:49Sean Fennessey:Yeah, spoken like a true Verhoevenite. Thank you, Adam Neiman. Thank you, guys. See you later.

1:12:59Sean Fennessey:Yasi Salik is here. Hi. Hi. How are you doing? Oh, luteal as hell. I'm ready to party. How are you guys? Just dandy. Nixon5. Yes, I heard about that. Did you watch any of it? Nope. Okay. We don't have to speak about that here. We can speak about other things. Maybe that was the good luck charm is that I didn't watch it. I don't think that's how that works, but I appreciate your care and attention to the New York Knicks. I'm very pleased with the film that you've chosen. Thank you. And I'm looking forward to discussing it with you because it was slandered as trauma core by our co-host here. Artists of justice.

1:13:35First of all, I never used the T word ever, as you know. Did you not? No, I didn't say it. I said that I, whatever, this is Yassi's time and then we can discuss.

1:13:46Sean Fennessey:Yassi, what film did you choose? Are we able to pull back the curtain on how the sausage is made here? You would be the fourth consecutive guest to do it. Yeah, this is really an errand. Some of us were in a four-hour-long podcast recording when this question was asked. Okay. And I'm not saying that I don't deeply love and respect backrooms because I actually really do, but my first choice was a drama. But that's so fine. Well, it was everybody's first choice. And once again, Rob Mahoney fucks everyone over. Absolute villain, honestly. Definitely not my first choice, but okay. What a dichotomy in that person of like the nicest, kindest.

1:14:16RM? Yeah, man who's actually so sinister and deviant. Goes for the jugular always. Yeah.

1:14:22Sean Fennessey:It's honestly a great rep for him. And also I had a secret second choice, but you were so unkind about people who loved the movie on the big picture podcast that I was like, oh, you shouldn't talk about that. Now I'm trying to think of. Super Mario Galaxy movie? It's the Sheep Detectives, which I loved with my whole heart. and that's okay I don't think we were unkind I think we were just not enthusiastic I did to hold myself accountable I did say that people are losing the plot a little about that movie I think that was the direct quote because it was made into a meme and I'm sorry it's okay I love sheep and detectives and feel good movies you could have chosen it what is your relationship to sheep?

1:15:02that sounds like like not well right this is kind of why you know I feel like imagining a no effects album cover real heads will know listen I love when an animal talks I love when I'm reminded of the beauty of humanity but I'm also I also love when I'm reminded of the absolute hellscape that we live in in modern times which I feel Backrooms did a great job of capturing even though it's set in the past

1:15:32Sean Fennessey:you are the first person I know who saw the film you went to the premiere and you rubbed it in my face you said I'm going I did not rub it in your face you said I'm so sad I wasn't invited but it would have been nice to see it with you because I had a great deal of enthusiasm for the movie and you loved it that night I think even you were like OMG I love this movie I feel really lucky well of course I was invited thank you so much A24 but I really love to see films with no chatter like with no nothing guiding my perception before I go in and I did kind of to be honest go in being like I don't care about this.

1:16:09I'm going because I was invited and my friend was invited and we're like, we'll make a fun night of it. Did you go to R &D Kitchen? We went to, what is the Houston's West called? R &D Kitchen. No, no, no, the other one. Oh, Hillstone's. R &D doesn't take reservations and I'm not a waiter. Okay. Either way, I'm not a waiter and I also do not like to wait. Let's just put some context around this.

1:16:28Sean Fennessey:The Arrow Theater in Santa Monica, Los Angeles is where the premiere took place. We're the Angelina's from the S &M. Across the street is R &D Kitchen. which is an outpost of the Hillstone restaurant group. The R &D kitchen is mostly focused on sandwiches and drinks. It's more chic for sure and it's closer to the arrow but I need to have It's walkable. I need to have a reservation. We walked from Hillstone. From Hillstone. I like to get my steps in. Good. But anyways all that to say It's all been very valuable. I went in with no preconceived notions and to be honest kind of like a maybe I don't and you guys know or maybe the listeners don't, I'm not a huge horror movie person.

1:17:09But I walked out being like, this was fantastic.

1:17:13Sean Fennessey:So what specifically connected with you about it? I love, I felt like it was like a Rorschach test. I love when a film is kind of that, you know, where it presents you with almost like the thinnest of plot and concept. but through that you're able to like have your thoughts provoked kind of endlessly my kink is having my thoughts provoked do you know what i mean i do and i like i love psychology i'm a psychology nerd yes might one say some of the psychological metaphor was lightly heavy-handed sure but okay here's the thing kane parsons 20 right back rooms we all know because we've talked about on the show, but comes from a 4chan meme.

1:17:59I think I'm so interested in how we're increasingly post-language in the world, and especially with young people. Like, memes are borderline post-language. The way Gen Alpha uses words like niche and aesthetic, it's post-language, you know? And I felt this film was in many ways, like, the first piece of art I've seen that captures that post-language kind of landscape.

1:18:25Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think when you are raised in a screen-centric environment, what dominates is images. That's the thing that you are consuming and kind of defining yourself through as opposed to experiences or conversation. And so I think that's a reasonable leap to make generationally, that that's how younger people than us are thinking about how to make art. It's just we're hurtling towards that. That's a very positive, I think, thoughtful, but very positive read on it. And I think that the criticisms that we had for the movie, which I would really like to see again, were that every time it tried to be more of a traditional film, it kind of got a little bit lost and was, I thought, making kind of obvious and kind of dull choices.

1:19:12Sean Fennessey:But when it was following that path that Yassi was talking about. To Yassi's point, the more it relied on actual words And the more it was trying to explain what was happening instead of creating the vibe and the emotions through the visuals, the production design, and the performances. Like, you know, I thought Chutel Ejiofor and Renata Reinceba were good and did a lot with, you know, not that much material. And I agree with you that the less you know about something, the better. And this did as kind of a standalone experience work in enjoyable ways. My problem was when I went back and watched the YouTube stuff.

1:19:52And the more lore and the more it become weighted down. I didn't do that on purpose. Yeah. The less I understood it because I am old and I still use language. But it's like I feel sometimes the way and it's film to film. But I feel the way sometimes about films that I do about music and songs, which is like I don't really care what the filmmaker's intention was that it was about. I care what I thought it was about

1:20:20Joanna Robinson:like I don't care what Stephen Malkmus wrote Summer Babe about that's about me and my high school boyfriend do you know what I mean and I thought backrooms really provided that for me and I was able to like kind of have this like journey of the psyche around it and also it just like it captured a thing for me that I think about a lot in like I said post language extremely online world which is that like everything is sort of this like existential crisis all the time. And everything does feel like a liminal space. I feel like I'm constantly in a liminal space. I've been trying to brick my phone.

1:20:57You guys brick your phones? No. Up on the bricking? Well, I know what it is. I'm familiar with it. It's not something I do. Yeah, you don't need to. You're not mentally ill like myself who needs a physical device. I think I'm probably pretty mentally ill. Put myself in a straitjacket to not go on to social media.

1:21:11Sean Fennessey:It's kind of a defining characteristic of anybody who comes to this show is you're kind of mentally ill. They're kind of mentally ill. But I've been doing it. And like after like two or three days, I was like, OK, so it's interesting because that's the real world. This world I live in is fake. And that's really how I was feeling. I was like, my day to day lived life is not a real space. It's a liminal space. And that's the real world. And I was like, oh, no, what happened? Like, how did I flip like this? But I think a lot of people feel that way. Well, it's funny to frame it this way, too, as a first time viewer of this kind of story.

1:21:46Sean Fennessey:because a lot of what you hear, I've heard this from a lot of friends who are parents of older kids than our kids, is that the conversations that are happening after the movie amongst teenagers are based in a lot of what you looked at afterwards, where there's sort of like that lore, which is so exciting and intoxicating when you're a preteen or a teenager, that that contributed, it amplified the movie going experience. But as a bunch of old people, we look at this as this like fresh, raw, new thing. We're not as entrenched in that lore. and we can understand it in the same way that, you know, I think the Lynchian comparisons are totally apt, you know?

1:22:22Sean Fennessey:I think it's unreasonable to compare a 20-year-old's movie to Eraserhead, but David Lynch was 20 when he started working on Eraserhead, you know? Also, many people are like, what was that man on about? And then started to, like, have conjecture about what he was on about, and it probably has little to do with what he was on about. That's why it's awesome. Yes. And I do think we've criticized it for the like that the quote unquote movieness of it like doesn't work in a traditional script or arc sense. But I think what you just said identifies that it does actually work in a movie on its own because as a standalone product, a bunch of old people who don't understand backrooms or lore were pretty impacted by it.

1:23:00And then the young people seem to just be like be really into, you know, whatever's hidden in there. and so that it can operate both ways is an achievement. They could have dialed back. I agree with you though. I was listening again to you guys' episode about it and I do think they could have dialed it back a little because what you said about like breaking the form is really interesting to me and I think, I don't know because I'm doing conjecture but I think if Kane Parsons had his way he probably wouldn't have included so much ham-fisted. There's been some suggestion that that's true. Like the parts that were a bit ham-fisted, like I think there's a scene where Chute Tala Ejiofor's character says like out loud how the back rooms are his mind or whatever or something.

1:23:40And then like, but I just like, I'm such a nerd. I'm like, I love that his shadow was a monster, you know? And I know that that's like quite obvious, but maybe it's not if you're 20, you know? Like I've had 13 years of Jungian therapy. Like for me, it was titillating, but I think it's an interesting thing to put in. And I love that 20-year-olds love this. That makes me hopeful and happy, or 15-year-olds.

1:24:02Sean Fennessey:Could not agree more. I think the lack of self-consciousness in so much of the filmmaking is part of what makes it really special where it's like it's very, it comes from a very raw and primal place that is informed by a lot of other stuff that came before it. Obviously, Kane is consuming a lot of stuff and kind of iterating on that, which is what a lot of great young filmmakers do where they take their favorite stuff and they kind of smash it all together and make their thing. Yeah, I mean, that's just the history of film and also all art at some point. But memes are art. Like, I would die on that.

1:24:27Memes are absolutely art. Memes are a reflection of a societal illness or happiness, whatever. I ain't reading all that.

1:24:36Sean Fennessey:No, they're joy-making, though, too, for sure. They're both. They're capturing. And I think I heard you ask this question of maybe Amanda about, like, how do you feel that these are all horror movies? And I was saying to a friend, I was like, I kind of feel like it's a bit of a, like, red flag moment for society that horror movies are so popular because we're all living in horror all the time. So, of course, capturing it is what's going to be the most reflective of what we're experiencing right now. I know. I have a slightly like inverted perspective on that though, which is that I think that so people are so inured to a lot of like bad news in the real world that they almost have to go to have a sensory experience on a big screen and quiet to be confronted with something that makes them uncomfortable as opposed to scrolling, scrolling, scrolling.

1:25:21Sean Fennessey:Oh, Iran. Oh, this terrible shooting. I don't even mean about like outside horror. I'm talking about like the horror of being alive. The existential horror. The existential horror of trying to navigate a world in which we're so isolated from each other. We lack community. As you know, Nixon 5. We're okay over here. Okay, Nixon 5. I did see a big uprush of community around that. We saw some people. People came together. People who weren't there is all I'm saying. Who are not from there. What do you mean? The bandwagon? You're mad at the LA bandwagon? No, I think LA and New York were in it together.

1:25:52Sean Fennessey:Were there a lot of LA people jumping on the New York bandwagon? That's not very forgivable, I don't think. I don't think you can jump on that. I didn't pay too close attention. Okay. You're LA forever. I'm from here. I think you should probably be honest about who you are. But you also don't watch basketball. I used to watch the Lakers quite heavily for like six full years. That was my meta world piece. That's my guy. So I know a bit about basketball. You have to choose at some points what you do with your wild and freshest free time. And I have to make 600-page Google Docs. Okay. We should talk about meta world piece off air because I have some stories.

1:26:25Sean Fennessey:Any closing thoughts on back rooms? Great choice. Good pick. I really liked it. I think I like, I mean, again, like, did I think the Sheep Detectives was maybe a more perfectly executed film? But that's not really what I'm looking for when I go to the movies. I loved that. But what I'm looking for when I go to the movies is to walk out and think about it for weeks. And the sound design was out of this world. Like, I don't usually notice that kind of stuff. But I walked out being like, the sound design. And then when they hit you with the fucking boards of Canada at the end, I was like, I'm a second.

1:26:57good job Kane Parsons thanks Yassi thank you

1:27:05Sean Fennessey:okay Rob Mahoney the villain of this episode has arrived I don't know where this came from little did you know your name has been uttered many many a time thus far okay because you swooped in and as is your custom not just from Amanda but from I would say at least three other people yeah you have been cited every time we've gotten a lot of feedback on the process by which the movies are selected.

1:27:31Mallory Rubin:Yeah, what are the notes? Everyone is mad at Sean because they didn't get to pick before you.

1:27:36Sean Fennessey:I was like the third person to respond. That is true. So I don't really see how this is my fault. I don't think it is either. And I think our system is profound. I also would just like to say that on this particular episode, I was letting the guests choose first. You did. Very gracious. You are welcome. Thank you. But this would have been my pick as well. So I rubber stamp your selection. What is it?

1:27:57Mallory Rubin:My pick is the drama. The movie I would say I have by far thought about the most. It had the most conversations about of anything that I've seen this year. It's just one of those moments where for weeks after its release everyone I knew even if they had seen the movie or not, wanted to have the intellectual exercise about it. So who am I to turn my nose up at something that prevalent, that profound and just honestly that hilarious to watch?

1:28:19Sean Fennessey:Let's have the exercise very briefly. what did this movie make you think and feel we are broken as a country a very American movie not made by an American notably made by a man who maybe does not have the fondest view of American culture and does have the line isn't this an American thing at some point said by it's not American star Robert Pattinson

1:28:44Mallory Rubin:it's very fairly gestured but also just like the question of what are we willing to forgive specifically in our partners or prospective partners I think everyone's line varies. Thought crime is a particularly fertile area for this one. And I have to say, I'm probably more forgiving of thought crime than most, but I have never been in this exact situation before yet.

1:29:04Sean Fennessey:Yeah, the movie seen from one angle is obviously a really absurd satire. Seen from another angle, kind of an interesting, realistic portrayal of the way that terrible people communicate with one another or don't. and the way that like people who feel like they can't be themselves because of some of the ideas that they've had closed down. And then other people who feel very comfortable with their awfulness kind of enact it on a daily basis. I don't know that. I'm not sure if this movie got me thinking that much. I think it kind of like it landed pretty cleanly for me and I quite like the movie.

1:29:39Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And I do know why there's a robust debate about it, but I'm not sure if I was kind of pulling anything apart in my head. How did you think about it? I felt the same way. And I think the movie does the deft thing. And it is because of the choice it makes to make the Zendaya character have this confession. She did not go through the school shooting, but she says school shooters. She says, I planned a school shooting, which as an American is, you know, the third, fourth, eighth, like the worst rail. and it's a smart choice because you instinctively as an American viewer and probably as any human being but I can only speak as an American viewer like tense up and are horrified and don't know what to do and don't know how to react to it and so then how everyone else reacts to it is plausible and you thus spend the rest of the film figuring arguing with what everyone else is doing as well as what she's doing and arguing with and through that and through watching the movie kind of getting to a place where maybe you know what or I don't know what you would do because again there is this fantastical quality to it the other thing I like about this movie is that it is in addition to that thought exercise it's just a great movie about the total terror and impossibility of commitment and the unknowability of the other person and it's a it's a wonderful movie about how terrible weddings are just like oh just the the pits and incredibly well observed about the wedding industry but the wedding photographer

1:31:16Mallory Rubin:dialogue alone is just straight out of the most heinous documentary ever made just truly horrifying

1:31:22Sean Fennessey:stuff the choreographer and then who is a heroin addict um no that's the dj yeah sure you know but Like, never forget. But those are twinned, right? That these people are set up to do this thing that is being portrayed in just like an absolutely nightmarish light. And they're also facing their worst fears about the other person. And the realization that you kind of can't, you can't know. And you can't totally know what to do. And which is why I think the ending lands as perfectly as it does. This to me is a romantic comedy, straight up.

1:32:00Mallory Rubin:I agree with you. And it's kind of beautiful in the end. There is something in the construction they have made for their meet cute and then their reunion at the end at the diner. Just something kind of undeniable about that display of, I don't know if forgiveness is the right word, but the grace of like, let's start over in a way. Sure. But you could also read it as two terrible people making peace with their fucked up fate. They deserve each other. Yeah. It's like, well, we screwed this up. and it's nice that it can be read both ways. I think that's the difference for me between this and, you know, we were just talking about Blue Valentine for unrelated reasons.

1:32:34Mallory Rubin:Blue Valentine's a movie where like, I do not want these people to reconcile. They're so clearly toxic for each other. I kind of wanted these two to reconcile. Like I kind of wanted them to find their way back even if they are messed up, even if they are at Oz, even if everyone around them is so convinced that what they have is broken or flawed or Zendaya's character particular is. I kind of just wanted to see it work and that's, I mean, that's a magic act within this movie.

1:32:56Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think the primary tension of the movie is Pattinson's character trying to reconcile what he thinks he's supposed to be feeling versus what he actually feels and trying to make sense of in polite society, is this okay? Is it okay for me to be married to someone who has thought about this versus do I actually just still love this person on their own terms? But what has this doubt that has been cast inside of me pushed me to do, which is kind of emotionally lash out in an unfaithful way? And that's really – I don't know, brave is not the right word, but it's an unfamiliar kind of revelation about human behavior that I think was fairly common in movies.

1:33:40Sean Fennessey:in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and that we just do not see that much of. And this does, it doesn't feel like a 70s movie at all, but it does feel kind of fearless and making you uncomfortable and making you not really, definitely not love the hero that Robert Pattinson is playing. I mean, he's a real dipshit in the movie. And, you know, she's a flawed person who has thought about some terrible things, but the reasons that she's thought about them are not over-explained. But you can have empathy for them if you step back from your outrage, which is something that Alana Himes' character is not able to do, obviously.

1:34:12Sean Fennessey:And she's also one of the great villains in the movies this year, like that character that she plays is hysterical.

1:34:16Mallory Rubin:I think it somehow transcended even just her normal famous personality. The memes that propagated from her sideline at the Knicks game along these character lines is frankly amazing for someone of her social footprint. Yeah, it's great.

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1:36:33Mallory Rubin:Do you hear that? Sounds like breakfast is ready. Because Quaker's coming in hot with morning nutrition. 100 % whole grain oats. And a good source of fiber. To fuel the rhythm of your morning and kickstart your day. And that sounds absolutely delicious. Fuel to start whatever's next. Quaker, official sponsor of FIFA World Cup 26. I, oh, let's go!

1:37:02Sean Fennessey:I don't know any what other thoughts do we have about the drama I think brave is

1:37:06Mallory Rubin:kind of the right word for me with a lot of this movie like the idea that you can turn someone making like the school shooter confession tape into like I need to update my firmware or whatever gag just the gall with which it makes you and makes you want to laugh at every time Zendaya does finger guns or makes a comment along these lines and rewards kind of the repeat like viewing and visiting of this movie I don't know what to call that if not brave I don't know a lot of movies that are operating with that kind of gall. I mean, gall is, I think, the right word. It's a little edgelordy, too. But just enough that I was intrigued by it.

1:37:41And I think the performances and the set dressing, I mean, literally, I guess, but everything else around it really does back it up so that when the script is needling you, it's just far enough.

1:37:54Mallory Rubin:How are we feeling about their apartment? They're flat. Incredible production design. I mean, really, really good stuff. There's no relationship to the city of Boston that I know of. And also I did do some math on their salaries and how that's connecting to what's going on there.

1:38:11Sean Fennessey:But I mean, listen, you know, just maybe there's an insinuation that he's of some privilege. Well, sure. You know, he's a museum curator, of course. But I've never seen backsplash that stylish in a movie ever. I think it's like Zelda style. It's beautiful. I don't know what that is, but it sounds good. Is that our closing note from the drama? I really liked it. What was the song ultimately? Because when you and I podcasted about it, you said that the cut you saw had a different song. So when I saw the film, which was quite early, the song that played at the end of the movie was Frank Sinatra's They Can't Take That Away From Me, which is an amazing song.

1:38:52which is one of the, and it's an ode to a person who has a lot of eccentricities.

1:39:00Sean Fennessey:And, you know, the lyrics of the song, like, for example, let me see if I can clock some of this. There are many crazy things that will keep me loving you. And with your permission, may I list a few. The way you wear your hat, the way you sip your tea, the memory of all that. No, no, they can't take that away from me. It is a song of acceptance that plays beautifully over that final scene. But I don't think that that's the song that played at the end of the movie when it opened in movie theaters. What was the song that played at the end? I'm not even sure what it was. I am Googling it now because it's the same one that she puts on to make him dance, right?

1:39:34Sean Fennessey:Is it Forget About by Sybil Bayer? This is what the internet is telling me. I think it's Forget About and not this Sinatra song, which maybe not stunning that the Sinatra state would not want to be associated with this film in some way. It's entirely possible. Maybe just too expensive or whatever. but I went out of the movie in this like little puckish state of glee when I heard that song which is such a perfect little end note and I think forget about is it more of a more sincere maybe? Yeah maybe so again that can be played ironically at the end That's true I mean you don't think the Sinatra song is sincere enough in terms of what it's gesturing at?

1:40:13Sean Fennessey:I just think Sinatra's vocal tone has a really like insinuating elbow in your chest quality to it that fits very nicely with this. But all right. Well, Rob Mahoney, great stuff. Thanks for having me. Thanks for stealing this from Amanda. My pleasure, genuinely.

1:40:33Sean Fennessey:Okay, joining us now, producer Jack Sanders throwing on his punditry hat to talk about the best movie of 2026. My Miss Mousy hat. That's right. So who is Miss Mousy and what is your choice?

1:40:45Mallory Rubin:I'm choosing Blue Heron, a really beautiful film by Sophie Romvari. you know, usually to pull back the curtain, I am left with the last of the scraps, right? And I look at my letterbox list, my best of 2026, and I'm like, okay, my ninth favorite movie is available. And this time it just so worked out that I actually got my favorite movie of the year. Wow, that's beautiful. I rewatched it last night, and I'm really glad that I did because I don't want to undersell, like, this is a really special movie. Like, a really genuinely amazing accomplishment. like honestly borderline feels like a miracle to me you know Romvari first time feature filmmaker obviously has been making shorts before this is a real step above I would say and also she takes like a really really big risk not to spoil anything and I think it asks a lot of the audience but I think the filmmaking and the storytelling is so good that she has built so much goodwill for you to like go on the adventure with her to like I trust you I trust this filmmaker

1:41:48Sean Fennessey:and yeah I mean it's just it's a it's an amazing movie it's a great accomplishment so um I did talk to Sophie on the show and we talked about it a little bit but you know it's been opening kind of around the country and around the world sort of slowly over the last couple of months can you put a little bit of uh context around the story um and kind of how to understand because it's a bit of an unusual structure. Sure. I mean, it basically follows this small family in Vancouver Island, I believe. And there is a mother and a father and there are four children. But one of these children, his name is Jeremy, is from just the mother's side.

1:42:30And he is a troublemaker. He is a very troubled person. He's a very difficult person. I know one of the reasons I connect to film. I think you said this was Sophie's like, everybody kind of has a Jeremy in their life. And the first half of the movie is really just examining their dynamics, how this young boy plays a role into potentially fracturing, like these parents' marriage, how it affects his other young siblings, the dynamic between the parents and their children, not just between themselves. and it's just a really, really thorough examination of how do you navigate a relationship with a person who like poses a question that you just simply don't have an answer to, right?

1:43:15Like a person who is incurable, unknowable. And I think that Romvari makes a really smart choice that is effective to me, which is like Jeremy needs to be a mystery to the audience as much as he is to the actual family, right? Like you cannot really get into his head because that's what it's like having a person in your life like this. So I don't know. Was that enough context? No, I think so.

1:43:38Sean Fennessey:I mean, obviously the film in the second half takes kind of a structural turn after I think very kind of gently and sometimes obliquely framing the crisis of this family. It's not always so overt. Yes and no. I mean, you know, it is experimental or non-traditional storytelling as well. But to Jack's point, the first half of the film is about a kid who's having a hard time, as we would say in Montessori parlance. That's right. And the film very deftly positions the younger sister as the stand-in for the audience and the observer. And so you're focused enough on this younger character and you're supposed to, you do understand as you're watching it that you're watching it through her eyes.

1:44:25You're trying to figure it out in that mystery that Jack talked about it from her eyes, that when it pivots to her perspective in an older way. It is, it's a change. It's not quote unquote traditional, traditional film structure, but you're completely equipped to understand what's going on. And you have been positioned in her, in her perspective so deftly that I find it is both unexpected and also plays really naturally from an emotional point of view. Yeah. I think there, there was a really clever moment that I remember rewatching the film last night because, you know, like as much as this is a movie about like childhood trauma and navigating these relationships, it's also just like formally about memory.

1:45:03Like how do we remember things? And there's this scene where Sasha is learning to peel potatoes for the first time with her mother. And she is basically explaining to her, to my estimation, how do other people outside of their family perceive Jeremy, right? Like how do people think of him, their family and talk about him? And like as a young person, that's a very difficult idea to conceptualize and understand. And it's this very long shot that's just on sticks. And it's of Sasha's mother peeling the potatoes and her hands are just covered in potatoes. And the dialogue between them is it's a long conversation of them going back and forth and explaining.

1:45:42And it just stays on her hands with the potatoes, which I thought was so clever because it's like that is how you remember things, right? Like you attach certain experiences to other ideas and stories. And she probably remembers that moment because of that experience she shared with her mother. So there's plenty of like clever filmmaking tricks that she uses in the film that just like stack on top of each other that I found really successful.

1:46:05Sean Fennessey:Yeah. One of the ones that really clicked for me that I cited when I talked to Sophie was the sound design of the movie is so amazing. The idea of just like hearing the box of cereal sliding across the kitchen table in the morning and it creates like a real sense of unease. And the whole, you know, the Jeremy character creates a sense of unease in this household. but there's also just the kind of common work a day. This is the noisiness of a family full of children. And just managing a family full of children is a lot of work, even if you're not dealing with some emotional struggles. And there's another scene that I haven't seen the movie in a few months now, but one that jumped out to me too, is this long conversation between the mother and father after the mother has had a conversation with one of the therapists.

1:46:46Sean Fennessey:And she has been suggesting a certain sort of like clarification or classification for what Jeremy is struggling with. And the mother's just like, this is not it. They're wrong about my son, which is such a familiar thing. I remember having plenty of experiences like that growing up where my parents were just like trying to reject a professional's perspective on their life and their family. And there's something so kind of maddening about that when only you understand something. But that's also shielding yourself from something maybe you even don't understand about your own offspring or your own relatives or something.

1:47:17Sean Fennessey:Very sensitive movie. great choice very excited to see what Sophie does next anything else you want to add about Blue Hearn I mean just on a personal note it was like I walked out of the theater and genuinely felt inspired like remembered why I went to film school and like to say that you know there are amazing movies that come out to say that this feels more attainable is absolutely silly and foolish and I don't actually believe that but that's like the closest way I can articulate it where I see like a first time feature filmmaker collaborating with people they've worked with in the past on shorts and it's in a genre I really respect and it feels within touching distance.

1:47:51The movie that also reminded me of was After Sun. And I always remember After Sun, not to bring up that debate, but I remember seeing it and I was like, oh, I'm so curious to see what Charlotte Wells does next. You know, like a super, super personal story. How did they broaden out? What's their next project? We still haven't seen anything. I still would be super curious to see what she does next. But I feel the same exact way with Romvari where whatever is next, season tickets, I'm very excited

1:48:12Sean Fennessey:and curious to see what she does. Great pick. Thanks, Jack. Thanks, guys.

1:48:21Sean Fennessey:Okay, Amanda, it's your turn. Yes. How are you feeling? You feel like all your picks have been taken away from you? No, I feel good. I jumped in. I did try to let people take first pick, and Rob Mahoney did his thing. But obsession was on the table long enough that I was like, no, no, no, I would like to talk about this and to talk about the phenomenon as well as the movie since it just kind of keeps trucking. Well, over$300 million now. Which is just amazing and fantastic. And we talked with Van about how this is not a movie that I normally see. This is a horror movie. And you even at some point were saying this is like a very gnarly traditional horror movie, which I historically am not into.

1:49:11And usually don't go see. but because this was such a phenomenon, I went and so, and loved it. And I thought that it worked in ways that had nothing to do with it being like a very gnarly horror movie, even though it was, I guess. Though for me personally, as someone who thinks I'm afraid and I don't like gross outs and I don't like creepy things and I don't want to do whatever like that horror thing is, it was a good education in, oh, I'm wrong. And like, maybe I can handle it. And maybe that's not what's turning me off the genre. Or maybe that that's not, you know, that I just kind of have like a misunderstanding of what's waiting for me.

1:49:56And that has sort of been an education over the last few years, especially. I know that elevated horror is like a bad word or a bad phrase in the community, but the Jordan Peele's and the Ari Aster's of the world and it becoming a little more arthouse and a little less slasher, I guess, is has made me realize that the genre can be broader and that there is more to it than just like really. really awesome kills. And I do feel like the conversation among like the true horror heads is often at some point just about like the technical aspects of the kills, which is its own art form.

1:50:39Sean Fennessey:But there's a brand of that conversation for sure. Right. And so I think that those of us who are outside the genre often think that that's just really all that it is and that all that can be taken seriously. And so for me, it's been learning, oh, that there can be more to it and that there is art in creating the tension and the sense of unease and the psychological thriller aspect of it. And that also that there are ways to do jump scares and gross stuff that don't interest me and ways that compel me. And I honestly, like, the thing about an obsession that was so revelatory is that I thought it was very funny.

1:51:19And every time it got me, one of the horror tropes got me, I started laughing as a reaction. And not because I was like nervous laughter. I just thought it was a very clever and funny. And I was like, oh, you did it. And you engineered this whole sort of thing.

1:51:35Sean Fennessey:This is exactly what I do in many horror movies. Yes. But you do understand when you are like when everyone's like talking about like Saw 7 and blah, blah, blah.

1:51:44Joanna Robinson:And even the slasher movies, even like the movies that scream parodies, communicate just something different in terms of what the goals are or what a quote unquote horror fan is going into a movie to see. That's why, again, Scream is sort of like intermediating it and explaining it to people who don't get it and adding comedy. I guess part of it is just that I also really like comedy in horror movies.

1:52:12Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think a little bit of what you're responding to, I could be wrong about this, but my impression of it is because of how old we are, the 80s and the 90s are really the domain of Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street. You know, that brand of teen sleepaway camp slasher movie defined the genre for about 10 to 15 years. And so if you're a young person coming of age and you're looking at Friday the 13th, a new beginning, and you're like, I don't want to see that. that's just a guy in a hockey mask stabbing nubile 19-year-old girls. And that, I can see why that would be unappealing as a young person when you're getting involved in the genre.

1:52:52Sean Fennessey:The genre is very wide. Right. And it encompasses a lot of different styles, most of which are not very popular to the mainstream movie-going audience on a regular basis. But this kind of tension-filled, nightmarish, romantic movie. Yes. like it's like Fatal Attraction as well you know which is a different kind of horror film and doesn't feature a one wish willow and you know a more supernatural element but it has that same fear of the opposite sex and you know the relationships and sex and all these things when we did the 87 draft I tried to do Fatal Attraction in horror and I made the case that the scene with the roller coaster and the and the baby is like venturing into it's certainly like lifetime horror yeah but But I understand that it's more thriller.

1:53:42I don't know, though. The jump scare in Obsession when, spoiler alert for Obsession, the friend is in the car and they're about to, you know, confess their love to each other. And then the Indy Navarrete character shows up. And so I was genuinely startled. And then the smashing the head so many times into the steering wheel that it's not gross anymore. it's just extra

1:54:11Sean Fennessey:it's a really good shout because I think that sequence for people who don't watch a lot of horror movies is incredibly effective have you seen a lot of horror movies the minute they got in the car I was like she's dead like I just knew because I've just seen a million movies like that so like there's a grammar to those movies and I say that not to criticize at all I think that's one of the great things but you weren't startled when she showed up I mean there's something the way that it's shot yeah and the way that the sound is edited like it gets you to jump But there was never a moment where I thought Sam was going to make it through that scene.

1:54:42Right, right, right. But also the extension of the death is intentional and, you know, says something about like the attitude of the movie and the way that it's crafted that I thought was funny. And I agree with you. I felt a little more in on the joke with this movie than I do with many horror movies. I felt more like included, I guess.

1:55:05Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think Curry Barker's training, making TikToks and YouTube videos and trying to pursue engagement on social media taught him a lot about what our primal instincts are as viewers and what are the things that we respond to. And he's just got a real knack for it. I'm really glad you picked it. I'm really glad you went out and saw it. I didn't assign it to you. You just went and checked it out on your own because you wanted to know what it was all about. But I'm not surprised that you liked it. But it has some, we've compared it like it's financial success to stuff like The Sixth Sense. But it does have that like a new person has arrived.

1:55:40Sean Fennessey:Totally. They're a really strong voice. They have a real handle on how to get audiences excited. And, you know, Indy Navarrete is just giving this titanic performance. This like career announcing performance in the movie that I suspect we'll be talking about for the rest of the year. So great pick. I love it. Love the movies. If you hadn't picked this, I probably would have found a way to pick it as well. I picked Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie, which has pretty much been my movie of the year all year. Yeah. And it's a movie that I've seen in theaters three times. Wow. And I saw it last year at a fan event.

1:56:15Sean Fennessey:And I was strongly encouraged to check it out. I was a fan of the web series, but I wouldn't say I was a super fan. I'd seen it, but I was not encyclopedic with it. But I'm a super fan of Matt Johnson's. I think he's just one of the most interesting, creative, dynamic, weird people working in the movies today. And everything that he does has just turned the dial one degree past where you normally expect this movie, which is ostensibly about two guys in an aspiring band trying to get booked at a show at the Rivoli, which is a modestly sized club in Toronto. Sorry, I just remembered jokes from it and started laughing.

1:56:52Sean Fennessey:It's a very great many good jokes. We just had the opportunity to recommend it to Van Lathan. I can't wait to hear what he thinks about it. it's an absurdist comedy that is filmed in a very grounded way it borrows liberally from back to the future it is a movie of regret and a movie of teamwork a movie of pop stardom a movie of extraordinary memes also very much a movie about looking back at yourself and who you used to be and who you are now and I found some of that stuff quite poignant especially the second third time I watched it, the 2008 versions of Jay and Matt and interacting with their former selves and all the wonderful, if you haven't seen this movie, you got, you got to check it out.

1:57:31Sean Fennessey:I think it's streaming now, but, um, I think it is like a lot of the best picks on this episode, simultaneously very silly and very pro very deep, you know, like the furious disclosure day masters of the universe Back rooms, the drama, obsession. You know, these are pretty goofy movies. Yes. In a lot of their scripting and their premises. But they're really making sincere efforts to communicate something at the bottom of people's guts about how they feel about the world or how they feel the world is treating them. And even though Nirvana is probably the silliest of them all. I guess so. No, maybe not sillier than Masters of the Universe.

1:58:16Yeah, maybe not sillier. And also, you know, Nirvana is very, very specific in its jokes, as is Maddie's Secret in its own way. It's true. Maddie's Secret, also very silly. Right, but with real depth. Yeah, so it's been a good year.

1:58:34Sean Fennessey:I feel like... I mean, these are all interesting movies. None of them actively bad, except for maybe Masters of the Universe. Yeah. I'll half defend it. I won't wholly defend it. And they're from all different places, right? Some big studio movies, some big IP movies, some from hallowed filmmakers, some from first-time filmmakers, some very independent-minded, some out of nowhere successes. I've got to say I'm feeling great about the year in movies so far. It's wonderful. I spent this weekend just fielding text messages from friends and civilians with random opinions on some of the movies on this list, some movies not on this list.

1:59:15Sean Fennessey:What's the most brutal cut that we've had here? Well, I realized about halfway through that Devil Wears Proud of Two is not on this list, but I think that's correct. I had a nice time. How's it going, Coach? And, you know, your beloved Toy Story 5, not here. No, you know, let's do a little check in on where I think I'm at with my top five right now. Okay. Right now. I've got Blue Heron and Nirvana at the top of the pile. And then I've got 28 Years Later, The Bone Temple. Mirawar, number three. The Christian Petzold film is at number four. And Sam Raimi's Send Help, which I think is maybe the biggest omission from this episode for me.

1:59:56Sure, yes. That's a good one.

1:59:58Sean Fennessey:A movie I love. Toy Story 5 would be up there. These are just movies that have been released. Maddie's Secret. Yeah, so not movies we saw at Cannes. Yeah, this is only just, yes, that's usually how I do it. I like Mother Mary quite a bit. I like Project Hail Mary quite a bit. Tuner was a film I loved from this year. But yeah, stuff like Fjord and Josephine from Sundance. Sure. Which that'll be an interesting episode for us. I look forward to that discussion. Not sure if you're going to enjoy that one. Paper Tiger, you know. Yeah, Club Kid. All of a sudden, Club Kid. Those, once upon a time in Harlem.

2:00:32Sean Fennessey:A lot of good stuff coming for the second. We haven't even seen The Odyssey. We haven't seen Spider-Man. We haven't seen the live action Moana. I know you're really saving space for that. I gotta see the non-live action Moana. I have not seen it, but I will with my son before Moana. I'm gonna do it. I was not of the age where I needed to see Moana. But can I tell you what I told you, but I'll tell everyone else this weekend. We did Ponyo and Totoro with both kids. And Sai, the baby, now says cat bus whenever you say Totoro, which is... The most iconic scenes in movie history. He just loves the cat bus and Knox was wrapped and I was also wrapped, loved it.

2:01:12So I'm like, we're getting there. I'm very happy to hear that. You can, you know, Moana will have its time in the sun.

2:01:17Sean Fennessey:Consider the coconut. I've heard about that. Consider its leaves. The island gives us what we need. That's beautiful. And no one leaves. Okay. That's poetry. That's Lin-Manuel Miranda's poetry. That's all waiting for you. You're very lucky to be able to see that film for the first time. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with John Early.

2:01:40Sean Fennessey:Very happy to be here with John Early. Hi, John. Thanks for having me. I didn't know that you were such a cinephile and such an aspirant movie director. I've been a fan of your work as an actor in comedy for a while. Thank you. But I had one clue. And so when I saw the movie, it clicked. And I haven't heard you talk about this yet, but when Vidiots on the East Side opened a few years ago, I hosted a screening of A New Leaf, Elaine May's movie. I was there. And I saw you and Kate there. Yes. And I didn't say anything. I didn't want to be weird. But I was like, oh, that's so nice that they're here.

2:02:14Sean Fennessey:And I love that movie. And I love Elaine May's movies. I had never seen it. Okay. You were responsible for my first viewing. That's nice. Yeah. But I thought even of Elaine May, and I want to ask you about all the myriad influences that you had on this film, and you've been very eloquent about them in the press run for Maddie Secret. But something clicked with me where I was like, John's the kind of person who would check Check out a new leaf on a Tuesday at 7 p.m.

2:02:37Mallory Rubin:I mean, it's the only activity I ever have in mind is just to check, you know, revivalhubla.com or a New York screen slate. And just see what's playing. I don't know. That's what I like to do.

2:02:56Sean Fennessey:Did you always want to make films? Was that always something that was a goal of yours?

2:03:01Mallory Rubin:Yes. Yes. And I just want to correct the record. My cinephilia is so narrow. It's so limited. And I've put all of those. My favorite movies are all in Maddie's Secret. So there's nothing left. If I make a new movie, I'm going to have to develop an entirely new personality.

2:03:20Sean Fennessey:But it's deep and maybe not wide, but it's very deep. Yes, it is deep. It is deep. And I feel like you've been talking about it, how you were literally looking at the movies that connected with you in a very primal way. and tried to transfigure that into your own work. What's the first movie that you saw that made you shiver, quake?

2:03:42Mallory Rubin:Just in my life. I've talked about this a lot, so I really apologize to anyone who's... This is... Anyone who's heard me talk about this before, but Clock Watchers, the Jill Sprecker movie, it just did actually have a very profound effect on me, like a real time effect, not like a retro active, like, oh, that did change my life. Like I actually felt a kind of existential shift as I was watching it as like an 11 year old. It has, it's a very bleak movie and I felt like there was no turning back after, like I knew, like I learned a little too much about the future of my life and of the world. And I was like, oh no.

2:04:31Mallory Rubin:But I was just, it really rocked me. I don't know. What led to you seeing that movie at 11? Well, I loved going to Blockbuster. You know, the classic routine was like, my mom would drop me off at Blockbuster as she shopped for groceries. And it was, and I would always go to the special interest section, obviously, because that's where the gay movies were. But that's also where the little Sundance recommends section was.

2:05:02Sean Fennessey:And kind of a neat little like row of movies that are all inside of your movie, right? Totally. Sort of like 90s indie Sundance plus queer cinema. Yes. All in the one, the smallest section. One little shelf. Yeah.

2:05:15Mallory Rubin:And, you know, and I would have to pretend like I wasn't looking at that shelf. I would kind of like do little drive-by glances, darting, you know, because you couldn't stay for too long or everyone would know. So, but Clock Watchers was there and I was very drawn to Lisa Kudrow and still am. I mean, I was totally bewitched by her as a kid. And she's on the cover of that movie and Parker Posey was too. And Alana Eubach, who was in the Brady Bunch movie, which is also a huge influence for Maddie Secret. Great movie, yeah. Such a good movie. And I didn't know Tony Collette shockingly. Well, not shockingly for an 11-year-old in like 1998, you know.

2:05:59Mallory Rubin:But anyway, I just rented it expecting some sort of kind of Romy and Michelle, variation on Romy and Michelle. And it just, I don't know, I found it totally, it was so haunting. I don't know. And then I fell in love with Tony Collette and the rest is herstory.

2:06:22Sean Fennessey:Do you remember seeing that movie and movies like that at that time thinking about how a movie was made? Or like what were you beyond the experience of the performers who you really liked and were clicking with at that time? Did you have a brain for who directed this? How did they do it? What does a camera look like and how does it operate?

2:06:43Mallory Rubin:Well, it's funny because it's before the internet was what it is now. where like there wasn't even an option of just like immediately googling something yeah you know i remember having that same feeling like where do i go to figure out what happened here yeah like get the microfiche out like i there was kind of nothing to be done so that the desire to like know about that that's that is something that's kind of sad to me about this moment is that like movies don't even have time to just exist as their own kind of magical object. They're immediately ripped apart before they even, they're ripped apart before they come out.

2:07:26Mallory Rubin:I mean, I had to like email the crew. I felt like such a crank, but I was like, when they announced that we got into Toronto International Film Festival opening night discovery program. The light goes off, by the way. I'm like directing Gary when he turns the light off. He's like, I'm not allowed to mug that hard. But anyway, no bits here. Yeah. Damn it. This is a serious film conversation. Hold it together. But when we went to TIFF, they like, people started putting out these pictures and it's so sweet because they're just, they're proud of the movie they worked on there. And, but I immediately felt this thing like, we're just like hemorrhaging the mystery of this.

2:08:08Mallory Rubin:You know, and to me, this movie, particularly has a lot of it has like a we were trying to make a magical kind of quality it's it's like to me maddie is like a magic trick she's like an illusion that we all worked so hard on and and so i felt sad about seeing me with like a cold brew in the sides and be like you know like in the like i just you mean like on set stuff that was yeah yeah but anyway but i just think things get like unpacked so quickly that your references you get kind of surveilled before the movies even come out about all your references and it does feel like surveillance it's very

2:08:45Sean Fennessey:bizarre it's maybe like a too meta attributary but there is something really interesting about that though because the film is so almost overloaded yeah with this collision of ideas of stuff that we've seen before and like some of it is stuff that it will be recognizable to your mainstream audience. Some of it is very cinephilia. Some of it is very like, if you're between the ages of 32 and 50 and you got a chance to watch television movies in the 1990s. So I'm curious, as somebody who was coming up with the ideas for the film and then actively making it, do you want it to still have that scavenger hunt feeling, even though you do want to maintain the spell?

2:09:25Sean Fennessey:Because as soon as you start picking apart the influences, the spell also gets a little broken, I think.

2:09:29Mallory Rubin:Yes, I agree. I mean, I, the references were really helpful to me, you know, in just building it. They, and I am, unfortunately, I am a kind of, like many gay men before me, I'm a very devotional person and artist. And so I, I could talk about the references forever. That's the, that's what sucks is that I can't stop. Like, and this, this is the way the media ecosystem of like promoting a film right now. It's just like, it's actually secretly perversely a thrill for me to like talk about the references.

2:10:07Sean Fennessey:And it's a thrill for me to hear people like you talk about it. So like invariably what you get is this conversation. It's like, well, I love Todd Haynes and I also love this Lifetime movie and I love this. And I think we all really enjoy that. And we feel like maybe we can unlock even more of your artistry. But then the slippery slope is, I think Maddie's Secret is very singular.

2:10:27Mallory Rubin:Thank you.

2:10:28Sean Fennessey:There's not, I've never seen a movie like it. Thank you. Even though it's like a lot of other movies, which is an unusual thing to do. So like at the risk of a vague question, how do you do that then? How do you metastasize all of this stuff that you love and then try to make something unique?

2:10:41Mallory Rubin:Well, I can't really tell you. I mean, I, because it's copyrighted. I'm kidding. We're really excited. No, I, it's just mysterious. I don't, the truth is, I think, looking back on what I did, what just happened over the past two years, I, actually, this isn't even a retro, this isn't me, this is something I actually knew quite consciously. I think that the kind of supermarket sweep style of grabbing at all these references was a way to hide I thought I was protecting myself like I was writing something before this movie that I found almost too adult and intimate and like I didn't feel smart enough I might never be smart enough to write it, but I was, it was like kind of freaking me out.

2:11:43Mallory Rubin:And I was like, I don't know if I'm ready to do this. And I was like, I just want to do something fun first. Let me do something like outrageous and fun and like cheap. And in my mind at that time, kind of experimental. In other words, I was like, let me make something that like no one's ever going to see. So like I can make, like make something so like with my friends, so low budget that like, it probably will just never have a life. And I felt kind of protected by that. I wanted to make something kind of in private. And I started just really making it brazenly, like very pastiche. It just was like, it's referencing this and this, and there's dance, you know, and this friend's in it, this friend, you know.

2:12:26And I think I thought that,

2:12:32Mallory Rubin:I very naively thought that if I constructed this crazy patchwork quilt, this like Frankenstein of references, that I could somehow avoid, you know, doing the more like the kind of personal project that I was working on. And then it ended up actually being hugely personal. Like it just felt suddenly as I was writing it, I was like, this is so interesting. This is like, I'm tapping in. I'm like, I'm like completely just doing this like movie by numbers. I'm like following the rules of this genre. I'm, you know, this shouldn't be personal. And yet that's, it's just such a funny thing about being an artist.

2:13:19Mallory Rubin:is like you, and about being a human being is you just reveal. You cannot help but reveal. Especially when you try not to. Yeah. You end up leaking out all over the place. And I really was trying to just make something fun and then I was like, uh-oh.

2:13:38Sean Fennessey:Well, like, so my experience watching it was 45 minutes in, I was like, oh, I got it. Like, I got, I get the idea. I get the fusion. I'm seeing the references, at least some of the references and then by the end of it I was like I feel it I feel that this was and this is a very sincere movie and not at all you know I know you've talked about David Wayne and there's certainly some like some of his progenitors in sort of like I guess satire or parody or something like that but I feel like the movie never really commits to that I feel like you can feel the inspiration but it's a pretty deep movie about a person in crisis and not winking at you at all and I'm curious It's like, was it, you have to like write through to get to that place where you're deciding that that is the kind of movie that you're making?

2:14:25Sean Fennessey:And also, how much are you communicating that about like raising money? And because it's probably hard to get a movie that is this kind of odd duck of influences financed and trying to make sure that like convincing people like, I'm going to make sure that this is all balanced and it's all going to play.

2:14:39Mallory Rubin:Well, I think I had to convince people of its kind of sincerity in, in, because I think because of the subject matter people the financiers i think would have been terrified had i been like no we're we're just having a ball we're you know um it's a free-for-all like i i

2:15:01Mallory Rubin:i i knew that there needed to be this like spine of commitment and um but and that was just what i wanted artistically but i knew i had to kind of really reassure people that that was the case. And it was like shockingly, I mean, because again, we were working at very low budget levels. So, but it was still, given the subject matter and given the kind of central conceit of me playing Maddie, it was amazing how quickly people jumped on board. And I think that's because I really, for all of its

2:15:43Mallory Rubin:oddness, strangeness, I did try to write something traditionally entertaining. That was a goal of mine. I wanted to make something that pulled you through, it was propulsive, it was like a dream or a fairy tale. And I really, really wanted to make something very blunt and direct and something that was like the emotions and the filmmaking were very blunt and direct and clear and not vibey or cool.

2:16:12Sean Fennessey:Why was that important to you?

2:16:15Mallory Rubin:Well, I think a lot of, I have a lot of rage about this, I guess, but I think a lot of art across the board, music, film, TV, those are the only three forms of art, as you know. Yes. The only ones we acknowledge on the show. Yeah. They are, you know, I feel like there's just been a, you know, look, you see it most clearly in songs. Songs very rarely these days actually follow a kind of chorus. I mean, I mean, verse, pre-chorus, chorus, like bridge, chorus. You know, like.

2:16:51Sean Fennessey:There's like a, I always say like the schmear. Like you can see it in films that have like digital effects. Yes. And it's sort of like, there's like a haze around a certain kind of pop music. Yes. I know what you mean.

2:17:00Mallory Rubin:Yes, there's an ambient quality to so much of, yeah. And then when you hear like an ABBA song, you're like, oh, right, right.

2:17:17And I don't know, I forgot what the question was.

2:17:24Mallory Rubin:You were trying to do something direct, which I appreciate. Yes, yes. And I also think there's such pressure in the culture for a while now because of social media and take culture, like hot takes. There's such a pressure to be smart and to know exactly what you're doing. and for every, and then also with all this like reference letterbox criterion like shit, it's like, it's like there's such pressure for everything to be so researched and studied and for you to have a perfectly, you know, to articulate your vision perfectly. And like, I just really was like, I think there's possibly something very, it was exciting to me to not be concerned about those things.

2:18:07Mallory Rubin:And also, look, these are all, this is like a high minded way of talking about it. To me, it was like the character, like Maddie is very sincere. She's a dork, you know, in some ways. She's not a cool girl. She's a tryhard. She sees herself as Emily as a tryhard Susie O 'Maker. An example of my incredibly nuanced writing. But like, you know, I don't know. I just, I'm so, I think we live in a very blunted moment. You know, everyone, there's like a kind of way that people talk here. My least favorite thing. Yeah. and and I don't know everyone seems so fucking depressed and I I wanted to make something that was like kind of cutting through the ambience and yeah

2:19:00Sean Fennessey:I talked to Olivia Wilde yesterday in her new movie and I was asking her about directing herself and how unusual that must be yes it's very odd can you talk about your experience especially given the performance that you were giving?

2:19:15Mallory Rubin:Yeah. Oh, it was very odd. I mean, I've done it a lot in a way. You know, I've made my own work for a very long time. And so I'm quite accustomed to just kind of like, is this so annoying, this bracelet? No, it looks great. Your fans aren't mad. I mean, they're always mad. Okay. Not at you though, so don't worry. But I'm very accustomed to like kind of just like getting what I need for myself. You know, and giving a lot of options. I'm very customizing editing myself, and I don't get too, you know, caught up in how horrible I look. Do you know what I mean?

2:19:56Sean Fennessey:Because the movie is kind of about this. This is why I ask. Yeah. This transition that Maddie is making to a kind of forward-facing role in our wonderful content society of which you are currently participating. Yes. And so I was wondering if maybe like some of your life as somebody who makes stuff and is maybe directing yourself in a very overt way and has to look at yourself all the time. And then having a character who is deciding to do that choice. And like, on the one hand, seems very like made for it. Yes. Right? Like built for it. And on the other hand, it creates like a sort of crisis in her and sends her down a very dark path in her life.

2:20:36Mallory Rubin:Yeah.

2:20:38Sean Fennessey:I mean, I...

2:20:45Mallory Rubin:Did I get that right? No, you totally did.

2:20:47Sean Fennessey:Reveal yourself entirely right now.

2:20:50Mallory Rubin:I have a very similar reluctance. You know, I have like, I feel like very unhip in many ways, you know, and I maybe value or maybe I'm maybe desperately trying to hold on to something that you can't even grip onto anymore. as a kind of privacy, integrity. I don't know. I really relate to Maddie as very much an extension of me in that way. And...

2:21:27Mallory Rubin:I mean, I don't know. I think I'm stronger than... I think Maddie is stronger than me, period. But maybe in this way, this particular way, I'm quite used... I'm very accustomed to just putting myself on camera. and watching myself and not getting too freaked out by the way I look. I certainly often don't love the way I look on camera, but also I'm a funny person. I'm always like, let's get uglier. Come on. Different standards. Yes.

2:22:04Sean Fennessey:So, yeah, I don't remember. Would you level set with people on set? Would you say, am I doing this right? You know, do you need like someone to kind of backstop you, you know? Because when you're the director, you're the answerer of all the questions, right?

2:22:20Mallory Rubin:Well, I had some very important people on set with me. I had the cinematographer, Max Lackner, who was such a huge part of all this, obviously. But, you know, he really, really understood everything quite deeply. He's also literally training to be a psychoanalyst. so there was always a kind of

2:22:44I don't know

2:22:45Mallory Rubin:it was I felt he brought an extra layer of kind of like compassion and psychological nuance to all of our discussions and he really was I think a protector of the he just totally understood the kind of like bounciness of the movie you know the kind of buoyancy of like the tone and um and so he was he did a great job of like making sure that i was keeping it like up um and then my my ex-boyfriend gordon landenberger who we had been not in a relationship for years at this point but he's the production designer and me and max and gordon we're all friends and we we you know worked very informally on this movie without you know getting paid before pre-production started we we were living together for a couple weeks even before pre-production and you know i so like there were those and and gordon and i know each other very intimately and like and he knows certainly understands certain kind of performance and securities i have and and so he was he was actually he was incredible kind of emotional support which is absolutely something that a director has to do whether they, you know, tyrannically avoid doing it or not.

2:24:10Mallory Rubin:But like, anyway, so it was, but all in all, it was incredibly lonely. It was psychological torture. I couldn't believe I was doing it to myself. I was shocked. And when I was editing the movie and I was watching footage of myself, I mean, I had a day in editing where I was like, I had to leave and go home and I like was like burst into tears it was like I was watching myself direct myself in a very important dramatic scene where I like basically crumble to the floor and weep and I was watching myself do like six or seven takes in a row where I'm like crying on the floor and then going like cut and then standing up and then being like waiting for someone to go and it was like and you could see me realize in real time that like that's me that's my job no one's coming for you no one's coming no one's gonna come rub my back or like and everyone was so sweet no one was being cold they just didn't know what I needed that you know that's a very intimate thing between a director and actor and I felt very exposed and I felt like I was doing this totally crazy thing I felt kind of insane that I'm like playing this girl in this treatment center and it's like getting this heavy and you know, and I just like, I don't know, but I, but watching myself, watching that one person dynamic in the editing room was like very confronting for me.

2:25:48Mallory Rubin:And it also made me feel very close to Maddie. And I was like, because, you know, Maddie is so self-made. She is like, not to give anything away, but like, you know, she did not have a great childhood. And she's like kind of built herself up. She was such strength, you know, and I don't know. I just really was like, it was like very profound. It was like a moment deep into post where I was like, oh, this movie is like, again, it's like in some ways started from this like really kind of goofy, these goofy instincts and then became totally, totally shockingly personal. And the process had this meta quality of absorbing the movie and the movie was absorbing real life.

2:26:42Mallory Rubin:And it was just, it was, I don't know. I want to ask you a little bit about that and sort of like the specific tone that you're trying to strike and meet that feeling.

2:26:51Sean Fennessey:So there's an amazing sequence late in the film where Kristen Johnson, who plays your mother, comes in for kind of like a psychotherapy conversation. And that scene, I feel like it kind of brings all of the things together simultaneously. It is like John Waters and Tennessee Williams and Lifetime, right? Like all at the same moment. Yeah.

2:27:08Mallory Rubin:It's precious. Absolutely. It's Tennessee Williams. Yes. You already said it. Suddenly, last summer, Marnie. Right. Marnie, right. Here I go. Here I go with my references.

2:27:17Sean Fennessey:But it's so interesting. I love that scene. But it is a scene that I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of struggle to describe where like it's not camp, but it's not hyper sincere. And it is funny, but it is emotionally powerful. And there is this like nether zone of tone. Yeah, totally. And I don't really, I maybe never known how to talk about it. And you conjured it, right? You made a movie that has it.

2:27:45Mallory Rubin:So how did you do that? Well, that's another thing where that scene, it's kind of, is profundity a word? It is, yeah. Okay.

2:27:58Sean Fennessey:You're not describing yourself as profound. Oh, no.

2:28:05Sean Fennessey:I can do it if you want.

2:28:06Mallory Rubin:if you want me to say the word i can say the word no this is just the cool thing about making anything is like again like the the just the power of the unconscious mind it's really crazy like but i was you know because again i was just going for this kind of like uh hysterical in the freudian sense um something last summer big final like explosion of the trauma that you know and i And that's a trope that I actually like, typically, I hate it. I find it totally cheap. And it's a part in TV movies, plays, where I just get a little bored, where I go, right, the puzzle piece, this is what explains the previous behavior.

2:28:53Mallory Rubin:And the kind of bluntness of that, I think, is what I find inherently funny about it, too. I don't know. So it's also kind of interesting to me that we clearly have been for many, many years now in a moment where there's actually a much more like kind of cool version of that. You know what I mean? But it's passing itself off as like smarter and more evolved.

2:29:21Sean Fennessey:It therapized trauma core. Yes. Beautiful. and there was something kind of naughty

2:29:27Mallory Rubin:and really fun to me about like exposing what that contemporary thing is. It's like you're not doing anything new, honey. Like Tennessee Williams was doing this years ago and guess what he was doing? It was so much more flair and guess what a fucking sense of humor. There's no way Tennessee Williams doesn't think Suddenly Last Summer is funny. There's no way. There's no way. It's so absurd. the the big preflation anyway that being so so i found myself making this thing with like which where the climax was this like trope that i like actively don't like to watch which is another thing we're like what are you doing john turn the car around but you know i don't know then i just kind of gave over to it and i found it all incredibly moving and like i and i found making the connections between Maddie's behavior and her past, like very deep and straightforward.

2:30:24Mallory Rubin:It's an easy thing to track. I liked the easiness of it. But when I was editing it, I just was like, oh my God, these two shots of me and Kristen Johnston sitting there, I was like, it's me divided in two. It's like you have Maddie who is like the gooey center of me, the aching, longing, yearning, sincere child. And then you have Kristen, who is the kind of, I don't know, this counteracting force that's always trying to kind of burst the bubble and laugh and be naughty and try to expose, I don't know, like hollow piety or... Harsh truths. Yeah, yeah. And to have a good time, you know. And I was like, it's me.

2:31:18Mallory Rubin:It's just me. It's the two sides of me. And why that was interesting to me was because I was like, and that's the movie itself. The movie is always putting those two things next to each other and making them try to get along. It's like you two behave. You're going to figure it out. You have to negotiate and figure something out. And that's what I think the movie really is at the end of the day. It's like, it's a negotiation between these two sides of myself. And, and, and there are certain scenes where one side of me wins over the other certain moments. It changes from moment to moment from scene to scene, I think.

2:31:59Mallory Rubin:but then I actually I think the what was like really beautiful to me about this is I do think and this is not for me to decide okay but I do think that um there are moments where they're really synthesized and where it doesn't matter who's winning you know um which side of me is

2:32:19Sean Fennessey:like yeah no it's really interesting I was thinking about how you're saying you're trying to write something before this that was more personal or more dark. And then where you brought yourself to, and I don't know if you're familiar with the rapper's first album, Conundrum, you know, the sort of like you've been waiting 25 years to tell your story and you put it all in your first album and then you get to the rapper's second album and you're like, this person has nothing left to say. And so like, is there any part of you when you're making something where you're like, maybe don't put all of it in?

2:32:47Sean Fennessey:Like what can I, because it seems like maybe you ended up putting a lot of it in.

2:32:52Mallory Rubin:Yes, because I was trying not to put all of it in. Like, I was like, oh, I was like, oh, I'll just do something fun. Like, let's just do something fun. And then, yeah, I don't know. It feels, to me, but this is what making anything, by the end of it, you're like, it contains the universe. Everything's in this.

2:33:10Sean Fennessey:Is this, I asked Olivia this yesterday too. Is this your job now? Like, is film director the thing that, because, you know, I feel like, From afar, it seemed like you were doing great as an actor, as a comedian. Really? Yeah. It seemed like you had a thriving career. I keep trying to look directly around that. That camera doesn't want you. That camera doesn't want you. Stay in the two-shot. This is a conversation. Please stay in the two-shot, John. I know you need your close-up. Mother, please.

2:33:40Mallory Rubin:Yes. I mean, yes. It's certainly not going to pay me anything. Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask you about that, too.

2:33:46Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Well, you never know. I mean, that's a tricky thing with this, right? Like, regardless of how this film does, people stumble into commercial success following their passions all the time. So you can't count against that, right?

2:34:01Mallory Rubin:Yeah. Well, you know, Wallace Shawn, someone who I've worked with, I just spent two years working on his play. And he's a hero of mine for so many reasons. but I really I realized with this I mean I realized having put some of my own money in this movie I you know and then working on an off-Broadway play for two years I was like oh I understand I'm now understanding the young Sheldon thing like I'm understanding like the way he's built his life he has done these he did seven seasons of young Sheldon and kind of take gigs sometimes and Murphy Brown and the Cosby show like he did he did a million things like that and it has allowed him to fund his avant-garde theater that's often been totally maligned and ignored and misunderstood.

2:34:49And so I, but to me, this is,

2:34:56Mallory Rubin:to answer your question, which I've somehow managed to avoid for three to four minutes now, some might say 35 minutes.

2:35:06Mallory Rubin:I, yes. like this is this is really what i like to do and i really like you know the beautiful thing is you end up you you not only give yourself something to do for two or three years you give your friends something to do for two or three years you know and like my friends were like it's not that this this wasn't without its conflicts and its struggles. But like, my friends seemed so happy that we all had a little job for a little while, you know, we got to work together. And like, that was so nice. But I really did feel working on this movie. I was like, this is a dignified life. I would like to keep doing this.

2:35:50Mallory Rubin:I would really like to keep doing this. And I've always wanted to. Do you think you'll circle back to the thing you were working on before? Yes, I am. I'm already doing it. Because I really did. I really feel capable. I've proved something to myself working on this, on Maddie's Secret. And I've, and I, you know, Maddie's Secret was an ex, I mean, it's in the title, Maddie's Secret. Like it's an exercise in like bluntness, you know? And I, I worked through that and I want to keep going. I would love to make like eight Maddie movies. Seriously. I would love for her to be like a recurring yeah it's it's my dream honestly but i also i got something out of my system a little bit yeah the maddie's in that yeah yeah um but i um one joke on set because we were honestly having so much fun i think this is claudio doherty's joke she was like you should do emily's secret like you should you should just spend the rest of your life taking each character in the movie and like Dina's secret Beverly's secret and just do their secret I gotta tell you I love Claudia

2:36:58Sean Fennessey:and I feel like I have not seen her enough like I fell in love with her in love and I think she's the funniest person in the universe and letting her be like a bitch was just such a great idea she's so wonderful in the movie

2:37:10Mallory Rubin:well she's a very like Claudia is people are very intimidated by Claudia actually like you know she's played a lot of like bright chirpy girls and And she's just like, she's the funniest. She's the coolest. She's the funniest. And I was excited to let her tap into the more withering part of her.

2:37:33Sean Fennessey:You did good. Okay, so you're making another movie. It's less blunt. Less blunt. I hope. But so will you also be taking a young Sheldon? Is that the plan? There's no offer. Okay.

2:37:46Mallory Rubin:I mean, it literally has to come along. The other thing that I have, which is really nice, is I was going to come up with a joke. I couldn't think of anything. But I actually do have... I was going to come up with a joke. Yeah. We acknowledge your effort. Thank you. Yeah. No, I have touring. I mean, I literally have stand-up. Like, touring is also... I love doing it, actually. It's like totally depleting, but I really, really love performing live. And I have that to make money.

2:38:21Sean Fennessey:I hope this isn't an invasive question, but is that something that you're cool doing as you get older? Because like, I certainly find traveling for work now to be much different than 10 years ago.

2:38:34Mallory Rubin:No, no. And I don't do, I, I, this is like the Maddie in me. I have this like, and this is very much the movie. Like I have this, the movie both on a like story level, but also on a formal level. it's like overstuffed it's like it's it's doing so much it's exhausting itself yeah maddie's exhausting herself she's doing the dance class and similarly it's like in order to achieve the dance class we had to learn choreography on our final weekend when we were all so exhausted it's like you know i have a habit and like and my live shows are like they're two hours they're not an hour they're two hours long i'm doing song covers you know we're doing i'm doing a i have a character or I have to change comment there's like you know whatever it's like I I like to like sweat on stage and and so I

2:39:28it's with

2:39:29Mallory Rubin:each passing year I just get more and more like whoa I can't do this anymore like I'm like I feel my age in a crazy way okay well we end every

2:39:39Sean Fennessey:conversation here by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen you are a filmmaker thank you I needed to hear that

2:39:48Mallory Rubin:what's the last great thing I've seen don't say the wrong thing I know they'll come for me I'm sure because it's such a clear feeling when you're like oh I love this I love this and I know I had it recently

2:40:05Sean Fennessey:do you feel like you're still a massive consumer of movies

2:40:11Mallory Rubin:I've slowed down on consuming really anything I haven't watched TV in so long. I was like, Maddie. But I haven't. I also was like so inundated in watching movies to get ready for this movie that I like feel like I can't really watch anything anymore. I hear this all the time from directors too.

2:40:31Sean Fennessey:There's a little like you hit a wall or something when you make a movie.

2:40:34Mallory Rubin:I still hit the wall. And I'm like, for this next thing I'm writing, I would like for the wall to break down again.

2:40:41Sean Fennessey:Is there something that is an inspiration point for the new thing? that you would share. You can be a real Cheshire cat about this if you want.

2:40:55Mallory Rubin:Can I smoke in here? It's fine, right? Okay. Let me think. Let me think. What can I say? I mean, let's just say, okay, this is really, I'll tell you off the mic, but my hint was this. there's an Amazon documentary or like there's a documentary on Amazon not about Amazon on Amazon okay that has been very helpful for me

2:41:27Sean Fennessey:wow and that's all you'll give honestly that's great that's a first someone who won't name a thing but will reference something but you will come back something by Amazon on the next movie yes yeah in 62 years and you can reveal yes yes

2:41:41Mallory Rubin:I'll be you know fully paralyzed from various back surgeries. Okay, what have I seen that I love recently?

2:41:50Sean Fennessey:No, no, let's do what you just did. I like that. You can claim ownership of the first time ever referencing, but unenunciating. Yeah, that was special. John Early, thank you for being here. Congratulations on Maddie's Secret. Thank you so much.

2:42:02Mallory Rubin:Thank you. I really appreciate it.

2:42:08Sean Fennessey:Thanks to John Early. Thanks to Chris, Joanna, Charles, Mallory, Van, Adam, Yassi, and Rob. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on today's episode and his selection. Thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh for his production support. Later this week, Amanda, the movie auction returns. Yes. You're excited? You ready? You prepared? Yeah, I mean, we've just spent an entire episode hearing people complain about how they didn't get what they wanted in the first half. So, you know, maybe I can channel that energy forward. Let's make it a whole theme week. Yeah. We'll see you then.

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