The 10 Most Misused Stars in Hollywood and the Gnarly Magic of ‘Send Help’

18:11Sean Fennessey:Okay, we'll get into it momentarily. Okay, we're going to talk about Mercy first. This is a new film from Amazon MGM. It's directed by Timur. Yeah, I know because the ring cameras are featured prominently throughout. Well, we should talk about some of the cross promo happening in there. So, Timur Bek Mambetov is the director of this film. This is not his first film that is screen focused. It stars Chris Pratt, Rebecca Ferguson, Callie Reese, Annabelle Wallace, Chris Sullivan, and Kylie Rogers. The logline of the film is as follows. In the near future, an advanced AI judge tells a captive detective that he's on trial for the murder of his wife.

18:49Sean Fennessey:If he fails to prove his innocence within 90 minutes, he'll be executed on the spot. Now, I want to just start by saying this movie has one innovation that I am interested in. Okay. And that I want to affirm when it comes to a dumpuary thriller. Okay. So you're leading with the... This is my one positive about the movie. Go ahead. This movie has a countdown clock. So you know exactly when it's going to be over. And that is just a damn good idea. And the countdown clock is almost exactly correlated to the runtime of the film. The film's like 96 minutes, 97 minutes. The countdown clock is 90 minutes.

19:29Sean Fennessey:You see it often in the film. We have a clear awareness of when we're getting into the second act, into the third act, which is a great relief to me because I needed this movie to be over very quickly because it's not very good. Yeah. I guess the other thing that you could say, and maybe we could save at the end for a compliment sandwich is that it was like 96 minutes. It is. Yeah, it is. It lived up to the billing, the same billing that this police officer who was on trial for murdering his wife was stuck under. So did you like it? Was it your favorite movie? This is a pretty, this is an evil movie.

20:02It is. But I want to be clear. It's not just evil, you know, intellectually, morally and politically, but also structurally and aesthetically, you know, at which at some points. You have to hand it its accomplishment, which is that it gets all five categories.

20:20Sean Fennessey:It's ugly, mean, and immoral. How exciting.

20:25Sean Fennessey:So here's the problem, right? There are a variety of problems. I mean, there are so many problems. Where to start? There's a critical problem. There's like a deep problem at the center of the movie. So the movie is about AI, right? And it's about how AI can be used as this like all-knowing, determinative justice machine, which is an idea that we've seen before, right? Like Minority Report explores this idea of what if we use technology to better control criminal activity in the world? And then what would that do to the society that uses that technology? It assumes an AI judge that is connected to a municipal network can analyze data and video and then determine whether or not someone is guilty or innocent of a crime.

21:02It's the municipal cloud. So I told you not to trust the cloud. Right. Okay.

21:07Sean Fennessey:I'm sure they have none of your information anywhere, despite being on various social media. The movie, you know, I think thinks it's well-intentioned by trying to show you how absurd this premise is by undermining the value of this system in the movie. In the movie, Rebecca Ferguson represents the AI. She is an AI judge. She's not a real person in the film, of course. She's just a kind of digital manifestation of this code of justice. And then the movie, of course, like goes through and it is revealed like no shit. Chris Pratt didn't kill his wife. And the whole film is about a quest to figure out whether, you know, who did it and who's responsible.

21:43Sean Fennessey:And he has to be a detective while strapped to a chair. And so it shows the kind of the fallacy of the A.I. and the way that we're relying upon it. But the movie is empathetic to the A.I. Yeah, it becomes like a buddy cop, but like a buddy routine. And it is Chris Pratt and Rebecca Ferguson as the AI judge learning about the world and solving the case together. And then the AI takes on like human qualities or emotions as it, quote, learns them from Chris Pratt in order to support and protect him and help solve the case and, quote unquote, serve justice. so yeah the movie it's like throughout it valorizes using quote-unquote gut instinct and that chris pratt is wronged and that he you know what he brings as a human yes it's money ball it's straight up money ball it's incredibly hard analysis versus you know tape grinders versus the eye test.

22:46Sean Fennessey:That's what this is all about. But then Rebecca Ferguson's AI judge also comes to see that we have to value humanity or learning. No, that's what we have to value is learning. Learning. Can we reenact? Can we reenact literally the last line? You can reenact it right now. Yes, okay. So Chris Pratt says, and this is how the film ends. Human or AI, we all make mistakes and we learn. And then, no, no, no. And then this is in the lobby of one of the criminal court buildings in Los Angeles. It kind of looks like where I had to report to jury duty. So at least... Set in Los Angeles. Yeah. So, but then Rebecca Ferguson appears on sort of like, you know, an ad screen overlooking the lobby, which is not technology they have available.

23:36Truly Orwellian moment. Yes. And she says, yes, we do. And then the movie ends. we all make mistakes and we learn because that's you know we're all learning machines

23:50Sean Fennessey:I want to talk to you about Chris Pratt and Rebecca Ferguson and the action or lack thereof in the film I want to get into all of that but let's talk about the actual messaging of the movie do you think there is anything purposefully insidious at work where the people that are putting this movie out into the world are trying to kind of wash our acceptance of AI and our use of AI and indicate that it is a kind of softer utility and that, say, a megacorporation like Amazon might be interested in its utility to the world. Yes, and they're also trying to wash the surveillance state, which is presented as the municipal cloud is also the means by which Chris Pratt's character is found, quote-unquote, immediately guilty and only has, like, nine minutes to prove himself.

24:37But then it's all of the surveillance footage and the, like, hidden cameras that prove his innocence. And like, they really, really use that ring footage a lot. They do. And the ring camera footage is what ultimately helps save him and prove his innocence. So they're like, no, see, maybe you do actually just want to tape everything and upload everything. It's not all bad. So yes, I do believe that there was massaging to make sure that both AI and really all tech services are not portrayed as 100 % evil. And I'm sure that that was a note that was given in one way or another.

25:23Sean Fennessey:It certainly feels like it. Yeah. And that's pretty ugly. And it's not above a company that has an interest in a certain kind of technology or product to, you know, Coca-Cola being a product placement when Columbia is owned by the broader corporation. And it's not shocking, right? Like that's the sort of thing that's happened over Hollywood history. At this moment in time, it seems like a pretty ugly coincidence. And so it's hard to watch the movie and just not be thinking about that. The other thing is that in addition to it being put morally gross, it's obvious and incoherent. Because you're watching the movie and anybody with half a brain is sitting there thinking, okay, so you're telling me that AI is the reason that he's about to wrongly die, like be executed.

26:15And the ultimate resolution of this film is that the AI program is like, is bad. But no, actually, I mean, it's - But they can help too. But they can help too. And sometimes humans are bad too.

26:28Sean Fennessey:Yeah, because in the final presentation, the person who is ultimately responsible for the crime, gets something valuable from technology as well. You know, that he too is kind of saved by something. Right. Which is just like... And then also they throw the black woman cop under the bus as well, which was just like... A crazy choice. When they did this, I can't believe that this made it through notes. I know. And her, you know, covering up, her cover up is meant to imply that like humans make mistakes too, just like AI. And then like we all learn. makes you want to die. But you are sitting there watching it and thinking, well, like, this doesn't make sense.

27:08You're contradicting yourself within the framework of this propaganda that you are making. Like, this is not effective.

27:15Sean Fennessey:I totally agree with you. It really wounds the movie. And generally speaking, like, I like movies like this. Like, I like kind of January thrillers that are like basically souped up Charles Bronson movies and Chris Pratt has a gun and is wrongly accused and needs to solve a crime. Alfred Hitchcock made tons of movies like this. You know, like it's not it's not that it's not that aspect of it. It's actually what is really underneath it. What's kind of like undergirding it from a structural perspective that is very, very ugly. And I was thinking a bit while watching the movie, because it is the kind of a movie that affords some extra brain time.

27:46I was thinking if you removed the A.I. like whitewashing from it and it were still Chris Pratt trying to prove his innocence using screens and and you honestly even executed it a lot of the same ways. Now, I thought this looked pretty bad in a number of different ways, but I probably still would have watched it and not been that mad.

28:08Sean Fennessey:No, you make a great point. And I kind of like this exploration of new cinema. Like there have been movies in the last 10 years, Unfriended, Searching, Host, Missing, Screen Movies that show, I mean, a lot of people spend a lot of their time on screens. It's not unfamiliar. Now, it's not inherently cinematic. And in order to do it well, I think Searching does it very well. it's hard to do it well though and make it compelling for 90 minutes and most of these movies end up being 90 minutes because you only want to look at a screen for so long the weird thing about it is Chris Pratt being trapped in a chair is almost like an active metaphor for how you feel watching the movie and that's not a good feeling you don't want to have to reflect on that like he's literally strapped in barefoot yeah why?

28:53Sean Fennessey:I don't know I don't know why can't the man have shoes? spoiler alert when they release him and then he's like running through the bowels of the fake justice center. I guess the idea is like - Barefoot? Maybe they didn't want him to hang himself in his cell with his shoelaces. Slip-ons. I agree, I agree. Just put on some slippers. Why is this man barefoot? I don't know. Is this a TSA thing? Like he's just got liquids in there? What's going on? I don't know. I mean, there are a lot of specific choices that are hilarious. Because the movie is not like searching or unfriended, where kind of like being on the computer is the point of the movie that like you need to be on the computer to solve the crime.

29:31Sean Fennessey:This is a movie where there is a lot of action but that action is portrayed during searches or during chase sequences on grainy drone cameras or on cell phone cameras. So even though the movie has a reported $60 million budget, it kind of looks like shit on purpose. Yeah. Like it just looks like it was shot with a phone, a really nice phone maybe. But you're kind of flashing these series of screens. It's like the opening three minutes of a Mission Impossible movie for 96 minutes. that's not a movie like that's not a good idea for a movie it's not a good idea there's a specific chase sequence where a truck is racing through Los Angeles that if it were Michael Bay it would be the coolest sequence of the year for action filmmaking in this movie you're like we're watching it on TV like we're using and they you know and they are folding in like local news and you know surveillance footage and all sorts of stuff I was like if this is a clever way to make inexpensive footage usable, then I guess, you know, or AI footage or, you know, computer generated non-AI footage, like, fine.

30:36But it does seem like they tried to film some of it badly. They shot it practically. Practically. And then made it look bad. And also, like, you can just, like, you can see the truck breaking sometimes. Like, it's really, we don't have our A-Team stunt drivers on this.

30:50Sean Fennessey:No, no. This movie is a mess. Yeah, it's really not very good. I want to talk about Chris Pratt. Okay. We're going to talk about Rachel McAdams later. And I feel that they hold a somewhat similar arc, even though their experiences have been radically different, which is that 15 years ago, you might have said, really two of the most exciting, you know, early 30s performers that we have. Chris Pratt, probably best known for launching out of Parks and Recreation. He played Andy, where he was incredibly funny and charming on that show. Yeah. I love that show. and he has spent almost the entirety of his career as a movie star not doing what I thought he was going to do what I thought he was going to do was he was going to take gigs as B minus Harrison Ford as Star-Lord in the Guardians movies as the dinosaur tamer in Jurassic World and use those to like then make more interesting things right like most movie stars in the last 20 years have used their kind of franchise power and wealth to then fund slightly more interesting projects.

31:56Can I ask you? Yes. What was it about Chris Pratt that made you think that he would be doing more interesting things? I'll tell you.

32:03Sean Fennessey:I'll tell you exactly what it was. One, he's married to Anna Faris. Yeah. And I was like, they're cool. That was just a cool couple. She's great. She's really funny. Two, he was on a sitcom that was run by Mike Schur starring Amy Poehler. Yeah. Seems like a cool guy. He had great chemistry with Aubrey Plaza. That show was good. I completely agree. but that like that's what we had and then he starts doing sure i'll tell you what i mean guardians of the galaxy is good you can't tell me otherwise and he's good as star in it yeah so so like that was enough for me to be like okay he got he got jacked right he wants to be an action star i get it these are good choices star lord especially that was a really good choice he's a good fit for james gunn's writing style and so i think it was reasonable to assume like he he's about to have kind of an interesting career.

32:46Sean Fennessey:Right. Actually, like, only now wants to be like Jason Statham minus the martial arts. Like, he's like, I hold a gun. Yeah. I'm really angry in everything I do or solemn. Yeah. And the world is in a lot of trouble and only I can save it. That's such a boring persona for a star. And I think he's been very successful. And I know there's been a lot of reporting about, you know, he's a person of faith and he seems like. He and Honor Farris divorced. They divorced. He's married to Schwarzenegger. I know a lot has changed in his personal life. I'm not really denigrating that. Like, he could still make good movies.

33:18Sean Fennessey:He really just doesn't make any good movies. And then as you pointed out, the only other thing he does... He's Garfield. He's Super Mario. Yes. He voices cartoon characters. Which is fine. That's also something a lot of actors do, but it's not interesting. No. And he doesn't do anything interesting. Now, I know CR loves The Terminalist. Haven't seen it. It's another Amazon series in which he's a guy holding a gun. I think he's in the CIA in that series. Not totally sure. Do you have a Terminalist? So that's a list of people who I'm going to kill? I think, I don't know. I think so. Oh, interesting.

33:46Sean Fennessey:Now that's a good episode. Now they're, we were trying to figure out what we're going to do next Friday. Yeah. Next Friday, the deadest release day of the year. And we're like, I'm not totally sure what our episode should be, but maybe it's Amanda's terminal list. You just list the 10 people you intend to kill before you die. It does exist in the back of my head in one way or another. Am I on the list? He's a Navy SEAL. No, you're okay. A Navy SEAL. You're for now. Okay. For now. The thing about the terminal list is that the names are fixed, but the number of people aren't. So once you get on, you can't get off.

34:17But anyone can be added on.

34:19Sean Fennessey:You've reminded me of the most, one of the most wonderful scenes in Billy Madison, which is when Billy Madison is going through school again, he's reflecting on his time as maybe a bully when he was a younger person. And he calls up someone he bullied, played by Steve Buscemi. Yeah. And he apologizes for the way that he acted. And Buscemi accepts his apology. And then as soon as they hang up, Buscemi pulls out a list of names and he crosses Billy Madison off the list. So, yeah, I would never do that. You would never do that. Once you're on, you're on for life. I really thought I was a really a vengeful person with a long memory, but you put me to shame.

35:01No, like out of everyone, you know, including like our bosses, I think I probably. You're near the top. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. I have no forgiveness. Why is that? Well, I just, because I can't, I can't be carrying around like all the stuff, you know? Sure. At some point, I just need to put it in a box. Like you're dead. You're done. Okay. And it's over. Okay. And now I can just go live my life and we're not going to reopen this. Like I don't need apologies. I don't need whatever.

35:30Sean Fennessey:Your inability to forgive, one of the most fascinating things about you. It's honestly remarkable. It deserves, it deserves more, more study, but we don't have time for that right now. Rebecca Ferguson, I'm sorry, my queen, but we got to call you out on this. This is no bueno. I was thinking about what it could have funded. Okay. You know? A chalet somewhere, somewhere nice. I hope so. I mean, it's definitely more than kitchen renovation at this point. And I'm sympathetic to the fact that they killed her off in Mission Impossible. So that paycheck is gone. House of Dynamite didn't really come through with the awards bump that she was looking for.

36:06you do wonder where there is a world where they thought okay we'll do like house of dynamite for prestige and mercy for i thought she was wonderful play with the bride yeah exactly and then it'll you know we'll just like have a really big january and february 2026 and listen that doesn't happen i hope she was paid a lot i don't think that there's enough that you can be paid well on the

36:28Sean Fennessey:one hand easiest job of all time right you yeah you're purposefully meant to act stiffly you are just in front of a camera and not with any other humans and you're playing AI and it probably took you two to three days to shoot the film. Yeah. I mean, it is glorified voice acting. Yes. On the flip side, you're playing AI in a screen movie opposite Chris Pratt that's getting released on January 23rd. Right. It's not what you want. You should, you should, you gotta know this is not good. This is not good. You know, I love her obviously. Most people I know love her. She's got a big year coming up here.

37:04Sean Fennessey:She's in the Peaky Blinders movie. She's in Dune Part 3, of course. And she's in a movie called The Magic Faraway Tree, which is not a book I'm familiar with, but a fantasy adventure book written by Ben Greger. Hope she's happy. Hope she's doing well. Yeah, Dune Part 3. Yeah, she's Lady Jessica. She's like Lisan Al-Gaius' mother. Yeah, no, no, I know. She's been on the series Silo, which I've never seen on Apple. Silo's ad on the Apple TV home screen made my son burst into tears and then run into the other room and then say, why is that man doing that? So. Interesting. Yeah, we won't be watching it.

37:43Sean Fennessey:Okay. You think they're paying her? Apple is paying her very handsomely, I would assume. I hope so. Yeah, so she's doing fine. This movie is not acceptable to me. It was number one at the box office last weekend. Almost certainly will not be this coming weekend. Yeah, no. Feels like it'll be on Amazon pretty quickly, which is where it belongs. It actually felt like a streaming movie. You know, it didn't feel, even though it has Chris Pratt, it just felt like a streaming movie. And usually the opposite. I feel the opposite where I'm watching a streaming movie and I'm like, why is this not in theaters?

38:09Sean Fennessey:This makes no sense. Yeah. This was one where I was like, I'm in a theater with two other people on a Tuesday night. The screen on the screen on the screen of it all probably will look less bad. And well, it's just, it's more in its native environment. It'll work fine on television. Yeah. You don't really need to show out to support this one. Sometimes it's good to have just like an absolute dead fish. Yeah. Like sometimes just to be like, do not do this when you're making a movie. They really didn't think through. I thought that this was pretty insulting to the recovery community as well as the unhoused people of Los Angeles.

38:41They bring in all of these hot button issues. The script's awful. Yeah. And like it's not even a good like mystery. No, you're right. The case is not.

38:49Sean Fennessey:It's like it's insensitive to somebody going through AA. It's insensitive to somebody having a difficulty in their marriage. It's really weird. The whole thing is just kind of a mess. And it's like, would it be a good Law & Order episode? Yeah. It's really, and also it seems, I guess the point is that AI is really bad at solving crimes, but it's very easy detective work. I had one like, it's not a nit to pick, it's just something that jumped out to me. So in the film, Chris Pratt's wife, who's played by Annabelle Wallace, is having an affair. And she's communicating with the person she's having an affair with via a burner phone that is not connected to the municipal cloud.

39:30Right.

39:30Sean Fennessey:Is that like easy to acquire a phone like that? If it is, why wouldn't everybody just get those phones? Why would you want to be connected to the municipal cloud? I'm saying to everyone all the time. Don't upload your material to the cloud. I agree. So you're only using burners? No, though I did realize when I was watching The Rip, in my mind, burners are still flip phones. Like it had never occurred to me that you could just get like a burner iPhone, you know, and I guess I will. Okay. Good to know. No, I have two more nitpicks. Great. Well, so what's up with this like hovercraft, like single motorcycle situation that the, are we using those?

40:07Sean Fennessey:Is that, I think this is supposed to be near future. What is going on? So it was a floating jet ski that the cops are on. Pretty cool. No, that looked really silly. You don't want one of those? I thought that I would have been embarrassed if I were. I stand on hovering exactly where I stood when Back to the Future 2 came out, which is give it to me now. Like, I want it. I want to use it. I want it in my life. It seems obvious that there's like a technology we should be able to conquer. It is like if they made Vespas ugly and then they could float. Like, there is no way that you could ever pull that off.

40:45And like, I try not to step in and be like, no, no, that's not a good. look for you, do what makes you happy. You do that? Yeah, you wouldn't believe it. But I don't think I'm good conscience could let you go on the floating Vespa. That just doesn't work for you.

41:01Sean Fennessey:You're referring to me personally? Yeah. Well, what if I had it souped up? What if I got Exhibit to come in and pimp my ride? That would be interesting. Get some flames on the side or get a purple Cadillac Elvis style look. here's the number two thing what about me floating in a purple Cadillac with no wheels who says no to that no no no I've been watching a lot of Star Wars movies lately and they're all in speeders with no wheels those speeders fucking rock they're just flat underneath so my issue is a little bit with like the jet ski motorcycle quality of it you don't want handles so if you want a car yeah no handles nothing astride how does the wheel situation work when you don't have wheels on your car where you have a steering wheel and it just shifts you in directions I feel like the I don't know that's like an airplane question maybe that's what it does Oh, interesting.

41:47You don't know?

41:47Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Well, it doesn't exist. I can't say you don't know. Okay, here's the other thing I want to bring up. This is vital information. This is an important conversation. You know what? If they had explored this in the movie, maybe it would have held our attention more. The other thing is that the man with whom Annabelle Wallace's character is having an affair is like the chef de cuisine at the Lowe's Hollywood. Yes. And then is like assaulted at the Lowe's Hollywood. and there is a dramatic battle between the woman on the floating jet ski and she lands the jet ski on the Lowe's Hollywood helicopter pad and then they fight on the rooftop.

42:29And I just want to say that's a really big look for the Lowe's Hollywood and congratulations to them. Have you been there? Yeah, I have.

42:34Sean Fennessey:I haven't been there. It's like a giant hotel right next to the mall where they have the Oscars. Okay. Yeah. I would not recommend Mercy. No. So good, so good, so good. Spring styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now, and they're up to 60 % off. Stock up and save on Rag & Bone, Madewell, Vince, All Saints, and more of your favorites. How did I not know Rack has Adidas? Why do we rock? For the hottest deals. Just so many good brands. Join the Nordic Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices.

43:13Sean Fennessey:That's why you rack. We all have that dream trip we've been wishing we could go on. But too often, life, or usually price, gets in the way. That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60 % off hotels and up to 50 % off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today. Go to your happy price. Priceline. Hi, everyone. I'm Charlie Cox. Join us on Disney Plus as we talk with the cast and crew of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again.

43:52Sean Fennessey:What haven't you gotten to do as Daredevil? Being the Avengers. Charlie and Vincent came to play. I get emotional when I think about it. One of the great finales of any episode we've ever done. We are going to play Truth or Daredevil. What? Oh, boy. Fantastic. You guys go hard, man. Daredevil Born Again official podcast Tuesdays and stream season two of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again on Disney+. Would you like to speak about Send Help? Yes. Okay. So I want to make a quick note about this. I kind of, when we first started doing this show together, I don't think I would have asked you to be on the Send Help episode.

44:30Sean Fennessey:I think I would have said, you know what? It's probably going to be a little gross. You're not going to be that into it, right? I wouldn't have imagined you would have been into Drag Me to Hell. Yeah. But in the almost 10 years that we've been going to see movies together, you have been evolving. I want to tip my cap. Sure thing. When I saw the trailer for this movie, I was like, this would be fun to do with Amanda. That was my reaction. Despite knowing what Sam Raimi likes to do in his movies. But the Rachel McAdams and the tropical location of it all. But also that the thriller elements and even some of the horror elements, I know that you're much more up for it feels like now than you were five years ago.

45:11Sean Fennessey:Fair to say? Yeah. I think it was also, I thought that I was going to, I thought that all of those things were scary. And then I realized that I just am sort of annoyed or disinterested in, but I don't get as freaked out. So now I'm more comfortable just going to this. I didn't, I guess this was gross, but I was kind of amused by it. It's useful to talk about around the frame of the film. So this is the new film from Sam Raimi. It's one of the precious few original movies we've gotten from Raimi, who is plainly one of my favorite directors of all time. Clearly one of the most influential directors of the last 50 years.

45:48Sean Fennessey:If you include the Evil Dead films, everything he did with Spider-Man, all of his genre work in the 90s and 2000s. and it kind of re-teams a lot of his longtime collaborators Bill Pope the cinematographer Bob Morosky the editor Danny Elfman the composer and it does star Rachel McAdams and Dylan O 'Brien and essentially just them because the frame of the movie is that McAdams plays Linda Little who is mistreated by her sexist boss Bradley who is played by O 'Brien whose father wanted him to promote her upon handing the company to him but he advises her to prove herself on a trip to Bangkok for a company merger.

46:25Sean Fennessey:And the situation changes when a plane crash during a storm strands them on a deserted island in a desperate fight for survival. And then tensions, of course, between them rise. So what did you think of this movie? Well, I turned to you as the lights went down and this film started. And I said, I have no idea what this film is about. Remember? That's great. So you didn't see a trailer. You didn't read anything. You knew nothing. I knew Rachel McAdams was in it because, you know, billboard culture in Los Angeles. has at least recognized that putting Rachel McAdams in front of me will get my attention.

46:58But that's, and also I thought she looked very lovely at the Send Help premiere. Okay. And the person who came and did our hair for one of the shoots also did her hair for Send Help. So good job, Clara. Oh, right. I forgot about that. Yeah. So that's what I was wearing.

47:12Sean Fennessey:No one did my hair for the record. They did your hair. Yeah, that's true. That's right. They were like, seems good. Congratulations. They were like, oh, you did it. Yeah. so but no I had no idea and I don't even think I knew that it was going to become cast away or a triangle of sadness for a while I thought it was just kind of like office place vengeance yes um which I was entertained by yeah it starts out as kind of swimming with sharks meets working girl like that's kind of the frame that it's using and then it pivots pretty quickly to cast away meets a perfect getaway. And, man, I just love this movie.

47:50Sean Fennessey:This is like, so in my wheelhouse. This is exactly what I want from a January movie, a February movie, a June movie. The most competent artisans, a fun enough script that gives a filmmaker room to apply a lot of his signature moves. A great and known star who does not have enough opportunities like this and a rising star also given an opportunity to show what he can really do in Dylan O 'Brien. It's so interesting that you can sometimes have more to say about a terrible movie than to say about a really fun and good movie because there's so much to pull apart about Mercy. But there's a lot to kind of dig into and send help to.

48:33So, with Raimi,

48:35Sean Fennessey:here's one of my big takeaways from this movie. And we're going to get a little bit into the plot of it, and so if you don't want it spoiled for you, I would recommend you fast forward about 15 minutes as we talk through the film and then we'll talk about mcadams and underutilized stars but his movies are almost always pretty mean-spirited even the movies that have like a kind of winning feeling like the spider-man films where you've got a hero at the center of it center of it they're the heroes in quotation marks are often put through really trying circumstances from ash and the evil dead movies all the way through um alison lowman and drag me to help they're very funny they're very gross and they porch like in this movie McAdams plays like a cat lady right like a seemingly a bird lady in her case but like a single middle aged spinster who likes her TV shows and reads books and thinks she's gonna like break the glass ceiling and tries really hard but men take advantage of her right but and she's also but she's made ugly it's not just that she's like well meaning and the world is taking her apart.

49:41You know, there's a whole bit about tuna fish, but there's like, she's a little gross. They try as best they can to make Rachel Adams look dowdy, which, you know, even in the moment, you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's very she's all that. Yeah, I see the way that skirt is fitting and, you know, you can't.

49:58Sean Fennessey:You put glasses and a cardigan on Rachel McAdams. Like you're trying your best, but no. But yeah, sort of like a sad person. And then the Dylan O 'Brien character feels revulsion. And you're supposed to feel like pity, I think. But you're not supposed to feel like, oh, this is a person I want to spend all of my time with. That's right. And a lot of that is accomplished, I think, in some of the filmmaking choices where it's like, Raimi is very unafraid to show you something that is gross. And sometimes that means like blood splatter or vomit. And sometimes it just means some tuna fish on the corner of someone's mouth.

50:33Sean Fennessey:and how uncomfortable something like that can make us when we're looking at it up close. And he shoots her so up close in those sequences and shout out to her for feeling comfortable seeming quite so gross. The two archetypes of the characters are really broad. Like this is not a nuanced movie about the complexities of being a woman in the workplace. Like it's actually kind of almost satirizing that satire. You know, it feels like a very loose riff on something we've seen a bunch of times before. which is kind of fascinating. And then as the movie goes on, they crash land on this island and their power dynamic shifts, obviously, because the Dylan O 'Brien character is powerless because he becomes injured in the crash.

51:18Sean Fennessey:Right. She saves his life when they've washed ashore. And she goes, she becomes more powerful and she likes having that power and she's very comfortable on the island. And this is where the movie really got extremely interesting to me. because Rachel McAdams and Raimi are very comfortable making her increasingly unhinged. Yeah. And kind of ugly in a different way. And the fact that the movie isn't really too worried about, like, who were you rooting for here? Because they both do awful things to each other. I thought it was just a great choice. And if the movie had been this sort of, like, pro forma, like, now she has the upper hand, and she will do what needs to be done, and then she gets to go back to work and she gets that promotion and she is the champion of this movie.

52:06Sean Fennessey:That would have been pretty bland. And this movie doesn't take that very obvious route. No, I mean, it's helped by the Rachel McAdams of it all and that you are rooting for this person so much. And I think the movie itself even veers a little bit towards like that, you know, pro woman, like let's, you know, justice for women who have been treated poorly in a like emotional scene where you get a little bit of backstory from her character. And in the wrong hands, that scene is quite bad. Did you think that scene worked? The campfire scene? I thought Rachel McAdams was so good. Yeah. And like played the scene for what it was.

52:50So honestly, that I was willing to go along with it. And they make a smart decision, which is they let the character be all over the place. you know and that adds to what you're this kind of baddie like insane quality untouched

53:04Sean Fennessey:wrong with her can i is this a reliable narrator effectively exactly but so because they allow so many different tonal moments in the character you're able to take that on it or i was able to take it on its face rather than taking it as like okay so here is the origin story and the trauma of the person that explains why i need to root for her and all these sorts of things but I think that's really specific to the performance and to what they're using and to what Mick Adams brings to it. And if you don't have that kind of star, it doesn't work in the same way. I agree. And I like that she's presented ultimately as like, if not likable, then someone who deserves love.

53:48Yeah.

53:49Sean Fennessey:But then by the end of the film, you're like, maybe she doesn't. We like we don't know. And it's like, is this a product of the environment that she has been exposed to? Or is there something really nasty under the surface? And the movie like leaving it kind of open to interpretation. And then I think having a fairly like unflattering conclusion for everybody is I just think is a great choice because it's something that he does in all of his movies. Like in a simple plan, he does this. He presents people who are like, oh, these lower middle class people, they find a bag of money. Gosh, you know, anything that they do is justifiable because the system that people operate under.

54:20Sean Fennessey:But then it's like, ah, right. Sometimes you make the wrong choice and that fucks you over really bad. And then you make another choice that compounds that. And that's your fault. That's not somebody else's fault. That's not the system's fault. That's actually your fault as a person with free will. And he's, he's always getting in the mix of that. You know, in Drag Me to Hell, Alison Loma's character works at a bank. Nobody's forcing her to work at a bank. She works at a bank. Because she works at the bank, she gets a terrible spell cast against her and she has to suffer an evil fate. I really appreciate that he is like willing to go places that a lot of other filmmakers are not I really appreciate what you said about McAdams which is like very few actors that I think could pull off this dynamic of like is there something wrong with her and if there is is it just like a gentle version of something wrong with her versus something a little bit more malevolent or dangerous and then Dylan O 'Brien similarly who I think is really a skilled actor he does get his kind of here's my trauma moment where he explains what's going on.

55:20Sean Fennessey:Right. But the movie doesn't let him off the hook just for having that either, which I think is also a good choice where you might say, oh, well, he gets this scintilla of sympathy. But then they're like, yeah, but he's still kind of a piece of shit. Like, so he knows why he's a piece of shit, but he still is doing awful things and hurting people, which is fascinating. And maybe he's even using his trauma in the right circumstances to engender sympathy from people and then take advantage of them. I mean, I think the nice thing about the movie, with the exception really of like those two short scenes is that it doesn't spend a lot of time dwelling on the trauma or what the trauma has, you know, has engendered or do these people deserve love or not?

55:59I mean, you can ask yourself all of these questions, but the movie is more interested in attaching you to these people. And through like kind of a twin, they both have charisma that like really sits on the edge. and, you know, it's the Rachel McAdams, Regina George thing where it is, it can be evil or it can be really charming and you can't trust it, but it still works. And so it draws you in and then you just kind of want to see what's going to happen and who is going to win. And at the end, there is like a kicker that makes you think a little bit about like, oh, like who was I rooting for? And what was I, but it's, it's not a morality play, you know?

56:41And that's, what's interesting about it is that you can, the text can withstand these questions if you want to ask them, but you really just enjoy the fact, like, how are they going to, how are they going to want to one up each other? And how many times is the movie going to be able to turn it around as well? Which was another thing I appreciated was like, we thought we had gotten to the conclusion or I thought we had gotten to the conclusion like at least five times. And then I was like, oh, another one. And oh, now the tables have turned yet again.

57:11Sean Fennessey:Yes, it's pretty effective at doing that. And there's one other idea in the movie that I think is kind of interesting that most movies would never touch for the 10-foot pole. Although Triangle of Sadness does kind of touch this. And I would say Ruben Ostland is a filmmaker who's interested in this idea too, which is that, you know, these two people have kind of goals for themselves in terms of what success is, what contentment would be. And for Rachel McAdams, it's a couple of things. It's elevation in her career and maybe also getting on the show Survivor. She loves Survivor. One of the reasons why she's so good at surviving on this island is because she has read survival texts and she loves the show Survivor.

57:44Sean Fennessey:So much show that she wants to go on, which I was very excited about. Yeah, no, you turned to me several times as I am also not a Survivor person. And you were like, so they always do this on the first episode of Survivor. They build a shelter. Yes. You know? Which is, you know, I'll tell you, I've seen 48 seasons of Survivor and I would not know how to build a shelter. I was going to ask, like, so plane crash. Yeah. You land on an island. Like, what would you do? Like, what do you think you could do? I have an idea of how to make fire, but I've never tried. Okay. So I would probably, I would gather the materials.

58:15Can we just cut that out of context? I have an idea of how to make fire, but I've never tried.

58:20Sean Fennessey:In a tropical setting, were I to be shipwrecked and or cast on a CBS reality challenge program? I mean, I love Survivor of the Show. We're about to have season 50. I know. Season 50 is a month away. I would probably gather materials for a shelter and think about how I watched strong people build them in the past Would you know to do the palm leaf into the coconut shell as like a water funnel situation? That was a revelation of me and that's not something that you see on Survivor that was not a detail I thought that was ingenious Now spearfishing is quite common on Survivor you usually have to win the materials like you have to win the spear win the goggles win the things that you need in order to do that you know that is paid off in the film as well it is I I can't say I think I'd do well okay I'm quite pale yeah I think the sunburn would really kick my ass okay and Dylan O 'Brien is protected in many ways by the lovely like shelter hang space that Mick Adams' character has built but how do you think you would do you know what to do in a survival you don't know what to do in a survival scenario no not at all like you know I mean, I live this every day, right?

59:32Which is for the most part when something breaks, I'm just like, Zach, come do this. And it's really not the most empowered woman second wave thing about me. I do think if he weren't there -

59:41Sean Fennessey:But the terminal list, that's very first wave. But like sometimes he's out of town and it's like, you know what? I can disable the malfunctioning fire detector if he's not here. Something has just dramatically changed in society in the last 10 years, which is that YouTube happened. And when YouTube happened, fixing things got so much easier. It's true. So that is true. But I also like I do have common sense and I do think that like, you know, when things are tough, like if I'm on the island, I can probably figure out fire. I've seen this movie. I've seen other films. I have watched you pull it together under tough times.

1:00:15Sean Fennessey:Yeah. But I've also seen you break. Yeah. You're sure you wouldn't break under the circumstances? No, I'd be fine. You're 100 % sure. Like here's the thing. No food for 12 hours. How you doing? I do that all the time. that's yeah that's called intermittent fasting i don't know if you like you know you can't that's not achievable no i know but like coconut yogurt i mean the thing is is that i think i could very bad for your teeth you got to be careful right we know that from castaway okay oh do we oh that's right yeah sweet that is true like a lot of sugar um no i think like i would know to go hide in the shade and not get sunburned you know like i i could figure out the basic things okay i don't know how evolved I could get in terms of food supply, building shelter.

1:01:01How would you do with

1:01:02Sean Fennessey:boar hunting? I thought that was really funny. A hilarious scene. Yeah. Not to spoil it. Then I was also thinking about like the like 20 to 50 feral pigs or whatever throughout, which is just forgot about that. Good meme. Just to go back to what I was saying before, you know, her version of contentment is either going on that show or having success in her career. his version of contentment is marrying a really hot woman and taking over his dad's company and being a successful guy who golfs right who can relate um i think that i think it's really funny that amy is like fuck that like yeah trying to be happy is is is its own trap like don't even try like it like nihilism reigns like that's kind of what is it a lot of his movies i mean it's certainly in this one it's it's a very it's just a very funny read and because it's kind of a rollicking thriller romp.

1:01:53Sean Fennessey:No one's going to be like, let's think about the morality of Send Help. That's not the point. But he does this in so many movies and I just think it's a really fun signature that he goes to over and over again where like there's a slimy zombie ghost in the movie. There's a lot of vomiting all over somebody in a movie. You know, there's poison. There's like a gnarly extravagant set piece. There's a big plane crash. Yeah, it was the CGI. The effects could be a little bit better on that one, but like a very funny grace note on it. Yes, there's a good gag inside of the crash. that is very effective.

1:02:23Sean Fennessey:Anything else on Sun Help you want to put your arms around before we pivot to McAdams? I really filmed sushi has really keeps making a big impact on me and I keep thinking a lot about it. Decision to leave and then now the sushi platters that are used in this film. Stay with me. Yes, I was relieved that the reason for the sushi's beauty was clarified by the end of this film. Sure, yes. because I was mystified and almost taken out of the movie by the beauty of what she presented in the film. McAdams. Yeah. Man, she just tight and bright at 47. She just looks great. She's beautiful. She has the exact same charm that kind of, she has a very interesting mixture.

1:03:12Sean Fennessey:She reminds me a lot of 30s kind of screwball comedians where you can't tell if she's the smartest person in the room or the dumbest person in the room. She's usually the smartest, but she has this ability to affect like, oh, oh, whoops. Right, yes. Sorry. You know, like that's kind of her energy in a lot of movies. She's so funny in Game Night kind of doing that. She's very funny in, what is the Donald Gleeson, Richard Curtis movie? Is it About Time? Is that the name of it? That sounds right. She's funny but also I've like wept through that movie. Bit of a sad movie as well. That's a very manipulative movie.

1:03:43Sean Fennessey:But she's very well utilized in this. They don't do the greatest job of making you think that she's dowdy by any means. But she does get to have a va-va-voom moment in the film as well. That's part of the joke of the movie, right? You're not supposed to watch this at any point and think, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a really dowdy person. You know it's Rachel McAdams in an oversized skirt. I wanted to ask you, what do you think, based on Letterboxd, are her most popular movies? The Notebook? The Notebook is number two. Okay, what's number one? Is it Midnight in Paris? Nope. That's number six. Okay.

1:04:23Let's see.

1:04:24Sean Fennessey:Come on. You already mentioned it. What's her most popular movie that she's ever made? I already... Mean Girls. Oh, yeah, of course. Mean Girls, The Notebook. Yeah. Midnight in Paris. What are three, four, five, seven, and eight? Okay. Well, let's see. I'm trying to think. She's been in so many movies. The movie that I always think from this period, I guess, I don't know if About Time makes it on Letterboxd. About Time is four. I doubt The Vow is on there, but I remember The Vow when they were really trying to make Rachel McAdams and Channing Tatum happen at the same time. And I think that's like about amnesia.

1:05:00Yes. And I don't, is it Nicholas Sparks or is it just Nicholas Sparks adjacent?

1:05:07Sean Fennessey:I'll tell you right now The Vow is 2012 and it does not appear to be Nicholas Sparks Okay, but it's definitely so she has like some sort of The Vow is number 20 in terms of most popular Let's see, other Rachel McAdams films There's two that you will not get Okay, because they're Oh, Doctor Strange and Doctor Strange Blah, blah, blah, blah In the Multiverse of Madness directed by Sam Raimi And I know that because when we saw the trailer for Doctor Strange 2 directed by Sam Raimi, she was in Flashback and I said, oh, Rachel McAdams is in these movies? Do you? You sure did. Just terribly underused in Doctor Strange.

1:05:48Sean Fennessey:They didn't market it enough to me. Like, I should have known because I would have gone. That was a real, like, you know, you had your, you know, star power forward sitting on the bench situation there. She just does not get enough to do in those movies. Okay, so Game Night, Wedding Crashers, both have to be on there. Game Night is on there. Actually, Wedding Crashers, fascinatingly, is number 13. Game Night is number eight. Because it's not PC. We're older, and so we put up with the humor of the Wedding Crashers. It's not PC. Sorry. Sorry, Gen Alpha. Number seven is a movie that I always forget that she's in.

1:06:26Sean Fennessey:It's a Best Picture winner. Okay. All right. Best Picture. Oh, Spotlight. Spotlight. Yeah, she's so good in Spotlight. She's also, number nine is Sherlock Holmes. I always forget she's in that. And number 10 is a similar kind of movie to Send Help, which is Red Eye. Also a movie that takes place on a plane. Very good movie, Wes Craven movie. She was in Are You There, Goddess Me, Margaret. She was terrific in that as the mother. Like she's a very, very good and established and working star. Yeah. But we don't think of her that way. I also forgot that she was in Spotlight. Right. And then I looked at her lineup and I was like, oh, wow.

1:07:00Sean Fennessey:So it's not as though she has gone away entirely. But, and she's, I think she's admired. She was in True Detective season three, I want to say. She's been a part of big franchises before. She's been in superhero movies. Yeah, but she's not one of the characters. That's the thing. She's not a hero. Exactly. In either of those big franchises. But then I was starting to think about her in the context of her generation. So her generation of actresses, McAdams is 47. Let's say anyone between the ages of like roughly 36 to 50 is kind of her generation, right? For the purposes of this exercise. So you've got her two Mean Girls co-stars, right?

1:07:38Sean Fennessey:You've got Lindsay Lohan and Amanda Seyfried. Amanda Seyfried, I don't know if anybody would have predicted after Mean Girls that she would turn out to be maybe the most visible and the most commercially viable simultaneously. Even though you have not seen Mamma Mia or Les Miserables. I haven't seen either of them. I don't know if I will. The singing has been a good venue. like Avenue for her. I see. You know, they have the same number of Academy Award nominations, McAdams and Cypher. They both have one for supporting actress. Okay. And then let's go down the list a little bit. Yeah. Jessica Biel.

1:08:12Sure, yeah.

1:08:14Sean Fennessey:In 07, there was a decent chance she was going to be a star. What was that film called? Easy Virtue, where she plays like a flapper or something, Roaring Twenties. You didn't know about this? That was a fairly recent film, right? I don't think so. I definitely saw it at the Brooklyn Heights Cinema 2008. Yeah, I remember. I haven't seen that one. Okay. It doesn't work. Despite Colin Firth and Kristen Scott Thomas also being in it. Okay, let's keep going through the generation. Jessica Alba. Yeah, well, she makes diapers now. She has an extraordinarily successful company called Honest. She still acts.

1:08:45Sean Fennessey:I think she was on a Netflix show last year, but definitely doesn't seem to be the main focus of her career. Blake Lively. Back in the news. Once again, I frankly think the text messages are quite respectful. Got it. You stand with Blake Lively, just so I'm clear. More so when you're analyzing, and I've read them all. I don't know what to say. I read everything. Not them all, but everything that was aggregated. I'm not going through court filings. Do you have access to her phone? No, I don't. I saw what was published. And I would much rather get an email or a text from Blake Lively than from Ryan Reynolds.

1:09:20How about that?

1:09:22Sean Fennessey:Is neither an option?

1:09:27Sean Fennessey:Michelle Rodriguez yeah coming off of Girl Fight right before she starts getting involved in the Fast and the Furious movies Keira Knightley in the Year of Atonement yeah Jennifer Hudson Dreamgirls was 06 Amy Adams things have been you know we've had a downturn up and down in Amy Adams industries in the last 10 years Emily Blunt right Devil Wears Prada was was it 07 or 08 2006 2006 six. Zoe Deschanel. Yes. Coming off of before New Girl. 500 Days of Summer. Yeah. Pre-New Girl. Zoe Saldana. Yes. Well. Who is. Now the most box, like the biggest box office star. And an Oscar winner. Yeah. You could make the case that Zoe Saldana is the most successful person from this stretch of people.

1:10:12Sean Fennessey:Although, Zoe Kravitz. Yeah. Catwoman, filmmaker in her own right now. Anne Hathaway. Yeah, six movies. Huge year for her. Kristen Stewart. on the younger end but right leading up to the Twilight Saga and the aftermath of stuff like Panic Room Katherine Heigl who might have been the most successful person on this list in 2007 that's true with Knocked Up and now she does Poise Ads comes for a saw Kristen Bell sure forgetting Sarah Marshall and coming off Veronica Mars Paula Patton Mission Impossible Mission Impossible yeah I think it was right around the time of that Mission Impossible Mission Impossible 3 right yeah Scar Jo This is before Black Widow?

1:10:55Is that who she was? Yeah, this is really in the prime of her Woody Allen era.

1:10:59Sean Fennessey:This was Matchpoint and Scoop and all those films. Emma Stone debuts really in Superbad? Or was it a debut right before Easy A? Easy A is 2010. I just learned last night that Easy A and The Town were released on the same day. So that was an important day for me. Wow. Yeah. September 17th, 2010, I believe. Oh, that's pretty great. Rashida Jones Yeah Natalie Portman Who had been around For a while But age wise We've just known her Since she was 11 But age wise Yeah but like When did she start In the Star Wars prequels 1999 Yeah so she's been She's been working Yeah And Naomi Harris Who had also been Working for a while But really kind of Starts to pop through here In the mid 2000s So that's 22 stars and Rachel McAdams, I think what I'm trying to reveal here as well, many of these people still have careers.

1:11:57Sean Fennessey:Only about three or four of them I would describe as at the center of Hollywood, right? Like Anne Hathaway is still at the center of Hollywood. Scar Jo, of course. Emma Stone. I mean, in movies anyway. Zoe Saldana. Emily Blunt, maybe. Kristen Bell has, you know, moved to TV. She has. Some, like, I think Emily Blunt, like Oscar nomination last year, Oppenheimer, going to be in this Spielberg movie, that Oscar. So five stars, five stars have truly emerged here. And some of these women have moved on other things. Some won Oscars and then now host talk shows, you know, like Jennifer Hudson's career arc from American Idol contestant.

1:12:37Sean Fennessey:I think she finished in like third or fifth place in her year and then became an Oscar winner and then was a movie star for a hot minute and now is like a lifestyle person. The trajectories are fascinating. It's not totally unusual. There's a lot of history of this in the 70s, 80s, and 90s where the way people are famous changes, right? Like think of Jane Fonda, for example, how she was very different in the 80s than she was in the 70s as a star. But I would argue that some of these people don't necessarily deserve their fates either, that they were like misused or misunderstood as talents. Well, I mean, we organized this episode around the misused stars and Rachel McAdams.

1:13:16But the reality is, is that you could just make a list of like 45 women over 40 in Hollywood. And it is everyone that Hollywood still doesn't know what to do with women past a certain age. And we know this, and it's talked about all the time. And every interview that a woman over 40 who acts gives says, well, then the roles dried up. But, you know, we just made a list of a particular generation. And this is the evidence of people don't really get the opportunities or women don't really get the opportunities unless they become a superhero.

1:13:49Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Keira Knightley is the one who I find most interesting on this list because it's not like her career is over. Her career is doing fine. She's only 40 years old. She was just in a very popular Netflix movie, The Woman in Cabin 10, last year that was not very good. But a lot of people watched it and they were like, oh, Keira Knightley. I know her. I like her. But, I mean, here's her work in recent years. She was also the star of Black Doves, the popular Netflix TV show. Before that, she was in Boston Strangler in 2023. It's a streaming movie. We watched. Which is fine. She was in a British film called Silent Night.

1:14:24Sean Fennessey:She was in an animated film called Charlotte in 2021. Okay. In 2020, she was in a movie called Misbehavior. She's been having kids. She has young children. She has a family. Yeah, she has a family. That is part of it as well, is that you don't want to be working as much, or it's harder in that moment. And I'm not judging that. I think I'm more just pointing out that things don't always turn out the way that you might think. Like if you had watched Keira Knightley in the 2010s, you might think this is the new Vanessa Redgrave, right? Like she will be in consistently great work for 50 years or Charlotte Rampling or, you know, whatever British actress, you know, elegant star.

1:15:04Sean Fennessey:With like a very angular face. Yes, right. No, no. But you know what I'm saying? It's beautiful. Good taste. Yeah. Auteurs love to work with her. She can sell a movie. And things change. Things evolve. And everybody's experience is different, but it's kind of fascinating. So it had me thinking about this exercise, which is, you know, very personal and specific. But I wanted to talk about who are the other people who are kind of like misused or underutilized. Yeah. McAdams, not hurting for work per se, and has a unique set of skills. She's kind of like John Wick. You know, she can do a lot of different, she can kill you in a lot of different ways.

1:15:38Sean Fennessey:not all these actors are like this but sometimes it's age and sometimes it's just misidentification and so like the first person that popped into my head when I was doing this was somebody who I mentioned earlier in the episode which was Lakeith Stanfield who I feel like we did put on one of our 35 under 35 lists a while ago and had had a number of interesting roles in a row most of which were supporting but not entirely and he was in Judas and the Black Messiah he was in obviously on Atlanta he was in Get Out he headlined a couple of movies like The Heart of a Fall and The Book of Clarence that didn't really come off he was in Haunted Mansion which didn't really come off he started he's the lead in Sorry to Bother You I know he's going to be in the next Boots Riley movie I Love Boosters which just got a trailer but like he's not he's not a movie star yeah and I don't I think I don't totally know why I think some of it is like the parts he picked some of it is maybe the way that Hollywood sees him I don't know what to account for that, but it feels like someone great needs to come along and be like, I got you.

1:16:41Sean Fennessey:You're going to be at the center of my movie. Right. And until that happens, he's going to continue to play second lead to Mark Wahlberg and play Dirty on Amazon. Sure. Or, you know, he was supporting in both Roofman and Die My Love this year, which is just a very classic, like, we like you, but we don't really know what to do with you. So people who know will be excited when you show up for a couple scenes in this like art house-ish film that we're making and hoping people come to the theaters. And in both cases, they didn't. So that's another tricky thing. The Die My Love part is really weird.

1:17:14Yeah.

1:17:14Sean Fennessey:That's a really weird part of that movie. That is maybe we didn't really explore it too much. I don't totally, was that all a fantasy? I think so. Okay. Yeah. I think it's just, it's not real. It's in her head. Got it. Okay. Good to know. In Roofman. Well, I think he's a person that exists. Okay. Like at the farmer's market. got it but I don't but she's just fantasizing about what could be exactly okay got it uh yeah I just I think I want a little more for him I think I want a slightly better movie I think that's valid what was the name of the Issa Rae romance that they made together The Photograph oh yeah which was kind of interesting and like didn't quite get there but I was like I'd like to see him try to do some more things like this he's very he's kind of similar to Rachel McAdams to me in that he's funny and can do comedy but also you could believe him in a superhero movie you could believe him in a serious drama.

1:18:04Yeah.

1:18:04Sean Fennessey:Okay, who's your number five? James McAvoy. I think I was looking at like the 2007, 2008, it's like Atonement. You're speaking of Keira Knightley and he had it all. I guess he like was a superhero because he was an X-Men. He was. But he was Professor X. I'm trying not to follow too closely what's happening with the X-Men. I'm just letting you share that with me. But I assume he'll be back in Doomsday. But he hasn't been mentioned. well we already know Patrick Stewart is going to be in it right and so I think we're kind of just we're ignoring James McAvoy who I think is wonderful and then he just had like his M.

1:18:42Night Shyamalan run

1:18:43Sean Fennessey:yes and Speak No Evil where he's just like and I think he's wonderful in Speak No Evil and I really like that and that just like kind of came and went so he's another one where he's like Chris Pratt he like got really swole and was like doing and it seemed like his lane was going to be weird psychopath action stuff which is funny and good for him, but he's also capable of emotions. Like, he's very funny. He can sing the bangles. Like, let's do more. I'm pro-James McAvoy. What does he have coming? He's got a movie called Control, directed by Robert Schwenke, that... Oh, no. It's an adaptation of a podcast.

1:19:23Sean Fennessey:Oh, dear. A man has an implant in his brain which issues him instructions. Julianne Moore is also in this. I mean... Slightly worrying. Okay. Slightly worrying. Did you know that he directed a film? I learned that last night when I was looking at his credits. I'll check it out, James McAvoy. Called California Schemen. Yeah. Which is a, I guess, a story about a Scottish faux American rap pairing called Slibble and Brains. I don't know about that. I'm not being Scottish. Man, this just ended up not really making any impact whatsoever. Well, I don't think it's been. At least in the U.S. Yeah, or in the UK.

1:20:02It's scheduled to be released in the UK in April of this year.

1:20:07Sean Fennessey:I spoke of the Book of Clarence, the Keith Stanfield movie. He plays Punchess Pilot in that movie. He was pretty good in it. Nobody saw the Book of Clarence. Right. This is my thing. Yeah, no, he's a really good pick. Okay, where do I want to go with number four?

1:20:23Do this one. Because this, I mean, that's an obvious one.

1:20:26Sean Fennessey:Yeah, okay. So I want to talk about Angelina Jolie. Because Angelina Jolie for a period of time was one of the five biggest movie stars in America. Now, she may not have had the raft of box office hits, but she was absolutely, you could put just her on the poster of Wanted or Salt, and then that's your movie. Salt was such a phenomenon. It's also like lost to time. But her in that wig, you know, it's like, we were all there. We were seated for Salt, you know? And then everyone, like, Leif Sharma's in that movie. It's Chiwetel Ejiofor, right? If I paid you a million dollars, could you tell me who directed Salt?

1:21:04Oh, I have.

1:21:05Sean Fennessey:No, of course not. A very well-known filmmaker, Philip Noyce. Oh, yeah. The Australian director who's made plenty of good movies. Yeah, she played a CIA agent named Evelyn Salt. Right. Who was accused of being a Russian sleeper agent. Mm-hmm. God. Jack, you seen Salt? No chance. Wow. You're missing out. Also,$110 million budget. Wild. How did it do with the box office? It made$300 million? $300 million? As we say, we used to live in the country. It was a thing. This film was shot by Robert Elspeth and edited by John Gilroy. August Deal is her husband? Listen, maybe I'm going to re-watch Salt tonight.

1:21:42Sean Fennessey:Wow, it's exciting for you. As I recall, not a good film. I had fun. I'm going to just go through her most recent. Here's the problem with... So I thought of her immediately when I thought of this exercise. Because I was like, this is someone who was... When she was on as an actress, was excellent. and also was pretty good at just being a movie star. She was pretty good. She could hold a gun. She could be in a period drama. She could be sexy. She could be dark and weird. She had a lot. She had range even though. And you just wanted to look at her. Yeah, obviously. Just one of the most striking people on earth.

1:22:12Sean Fennessey:The problem, the reason why I think this is a flawed pick is that I think she does control her own fate. I think she has more agency than the people that we're kind of aiming for here where like she can still get a movie made, maybe not the same kind of movie that she could have gotten made 15 years ago, but she can still get something made. She was recently in the awards race with Maria last year, which is a movie that I liked and apparently nobody else did, the Pablo Doreen movie, you know, about Maria Callas. She has had a - Gowns, beautiful gowns. Yes. I mean, her film output since 2019 is Maleficent, Mistress of Evil, in which she has the titular role.

1:22:53A legendary podcast by us also. Yes, very fun movie about -

1:22:58Sean Fennessey:a cozier time in which the war between Red State and Blue State seemed more navigable in a Disney property. She was a voice in the one and only Ivan. She starred in Those Who Wish Me Dead, the Taylor Sheridan film. You liked it. The fire chases, she chases fires. Smoke jumper, yeah. Smoke jumper. Yeah, how do they go to the bathroom up there? Still no answers. Well, I feel like they urinate on the fire, right? Isn't that the whole thing? No, they don't do that. Eternals. Yeah. Second time Eternals has come up on this pod. And then Maria, and then Alice. I was so pregnant when we saw that movie too.

1:23:28I don't think this Alice Winokur movie

1:23:30Sean Fennessey:Couture which premiered at Toronto has distribution? I don't think it has distribution I don't even know if it's going to come out in America. Oh dear. So she does have two films coming one a Mark Foster comedy called Anxious People that I think is maybe going to be a Black Bear movie that stars her and Amy Lou Wood from The White Lotus and Jason Segel and then another movie called Sunny which is a crime thriller starring her and Charlie Plummer and Method Man. Ah. which, okay. A female gangster who fights to protect her sons and herself from an abusive drug kingpin. Relatable.

1:24:07Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I'll just, I'll stick Angelina Jolie on there. We don't really know what to do with her. Don't, fine. It was a good conversation. Okay. You know, we got to talk about salt. Okay. What's the best Angelina Jolie film? Like, what's the best film she's ever made? I mean, I really like Mr. and Mrs. Smith. That can't be the answer. Well, I just, this is the first thing that came to mind. She just doesn't. It encapsulates the Angelina Jolie experience. I mean, she's sort of a Clooney as well. I almost put Clooney on my list and I think that's imperfect. But, and it's like, it's just, he's trying and it just goes wrong every time.

1:24:42Sean Fennessey:So I have always loved Hackers and she won an Oscar for Girl Interrupted. Yeah. She's terrific in Gia, the HBO film. Sure. I don't know if she won an Emmy or she was nominated for an Emmy for that film. But like, go down the list. No, I agree. Listen. zero great films there's a reason why I said Mr. and Mrs. Smith and Salt was a phenomenon you know very very weird career I mean a lot of hits right she had Tomb Raider sure Taking Lives Sky Captain in the World of Tomorrow she's pretty good in that you know Alexander a famous bomb Boxfire she's great in that but like what a weird career it's very strange how often does one of the most famous people in the world make zero good movies okay who do you got for four Julia Roberts wow speaking of the most famous people in the world and this is misused well I don't misused underused some of it is underused because when we made her a hall of fame a famous episode that was cut short there's just like a 20 no one thinks that I do a 20 year gap right uh huh I mean, and that's not totally true.

1:25:57And she obviously had a huge amount of success in the 90s early in her career and then had kids and wanted to do her own stuff and then pick some projects that didn't pan out. She, like many of her ilk, has had a hard time kind of reheating the career, the 90s career in like post 2015. But there's not a lot. and you know our friend Sam Esmail has is definitely and is still working with her and using so that is great I put her in a show

1:26:27Sean Fennessey:and a movie and they have another movie coming I don't think that she I thought she was great in Luca Guadagnino's After the Hunt even though that that script does not make sense among other issues but we're just not using her enough it's Julia Roberts like we saw her at the Golden Globes she walked out on stage and everyone just absolutely stood up and applauded. Like, we're not using that as, like, nuclear power, you know? I agree. Let's find a way to channel it that's healthy for this Earth. How much of it do you think is just that she's like, I'm just doing only what I want to do? I think that that's part of it.

1:27:06But also, I think Julia Roberts has earned the right to do what she wants to do, and then other people got to figure out how to use it.

1:27:13Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I'm trying to think is, like, does Wes Anderson want to work with Julia Roberts, you know? does Paul Thomas Anderson want to work with Julia Roberts that would be fun you know like yeah there's definitely something where she has and part of it is because like with Julia Roberts comes kind of Julia Roberts industries right like she's gonna get a big paycheck she's like it becomes her movie because she's such a huge figure in the world but it would be cool to see her dip back in with a kind of like a major event film now Sam's next movie might be really big Panic Carefully which was dated for 2027 and well I you know I know it has a big scope.

1:27:49Sean Fennessey:So that'll be interesting to see. But she has not done a lot of stuff like that in the last 10 years. Okay, I came up with my next one. Okay. It's Dev Patel. Oh, this is a good one. A lot of rumors over the years about could he be Bond? Could he be great at Bond? Is he the future of a certain kind of Hollywood? He's made some really good movies. But he's another guy who you look at the CV and you're like, okay, broke out in Slumdog. Best picture winner. you think it's kind of mapped to the stars. The biggest movie he's in after that is Chappie. From 2008 to 2015. He's in the two best exotic Marigold hotel movies.

1:28:33Yeah.

1:28:34Sean Fennessey:He's in M. Night Shyamalan's Disastrous The Last Airbender. And then in 2016 he's in Lion, which gets nominated for Best Picture, which is like one of the most forgotten Best Picture nominees of all time. And makes a couple of good movies, Hotel Mumbai and the personal history of David Copperfield and he's in The Green Knight which I think is fantastic David Lowery's movie but that came out during COVID and people don't maybe didn't see as many people didn't see that as they should he does the wonderful story of Henry Sugar and then he directs himself in Monkey Man and one of the reasons why he says he's going to direct himself in it is because he's like nobody will cast me as an action star and no one has still and I don't get it I don't really know what he's got next and somebody needs to put him in like a big mainstream movie that is good.

1:29:171 ,000 percent?

1:29:19Sean Fennessey:I always find him winning on screen. I think he's really... I'm always looking for people who are like really flexible, who can do a lot of different kinds of things as a star. Funny, endearing. Could be the romantic lead. Could be the guy with the gun. And he was... Monkey Man, I think, was an extended production process and flawed in many ways, but he was so watchable. And watching him run and move, I thought he was a very convincing actor. action star. Agreed. So yeah, I don't know. Also just every time he comes on screen my husband is like that's the most handsome man that ever lived which is true but you know let's use it.

1:29:54Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's weird that he hasn't either found a franchise or found a TV series built around him or it's weird that there's not one thing that is like where he has some primacy. Anyway, what's your number three? This is a call that's coming from inside the house one but it's Bradley Cooper who is one of our great movie stars. one of our great actors, and sometimes one of our great directors. And even when you're watching is this thing on, which I think the collective response on this podcast and off was why, why? And, and also the way that he casts and portrays himself in that movie is fascinating and sort of baffling, but he's still the funniest, most watchable part.

1:30:37He's taken to doing cameos. Now you just always like, you start crying like, yes, yes. at the screen when he shows up on Dungeons and Dragons, like two feet tall. Yeah, I did like that. And he's great. He's an incredible movie star. You know, The Hangover made hundreds of millions of dollars.

1:30:55Sean Fennessey:It's true. He's done, like, you know, American Sniper, The Plastic Baby. He can survive anything. People love him. And he's just not in movies anymore. And then he's just, he's making stand-up comedy stuff. What? What are we doing? What does he have coming next? I feel like he has one big project that is worth putting our arms around that we need to get excited about. I mean, I'm excited. I'm always. He's been a main character of this show. Yeah. He's been one of the central preoccupations. I support him. I'm just asking for more. I mean, he's had the eagles to deal with, right? That's been a thing.

1:31:30Sean Fennessey:Sure. He was Jor-El in Superman. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. That was good. Yeah, I don't know if he has anything planned. Yeah. I mean, you know, Rocket Raccoon, that was good. Listen, A Star is Born was great. The Mule? Well, that was seven years ago. We had a fantastic time. The Mule, which made$300 million. Licorice Pizza? Like, Nightmare Alley, you loved? Like, my guy has it. Yeah. It's been a rocky road since Nightmare Alley, I would say. Well, yeah, that's mostly cameos and or films that he is directing and starring and or acting in that we've been a little perplexed by. Maestro is like an amazing achievement of directing.

1:32:09I think he's very good in it. I still.

1:32:11Sean Fennessey:Not a great Leonard Bernstein movie, right? I have like a little bit of a why quality to that one as well. Yeah. But. I. Is this thing on. Yeah. Which we were very hard on on the show. I understand the intent. Which is like let's pull back. Back to basics. You know. A funny character piece. So that I can get away from the grandeur of Maestro as a filmmaker. And I can do my James L. Brooks movie. Right? Like that's what he's really trying to do. Yeah. I get it. The intent. I think it was completely misconceived in a couple of ways and the style of the movie I found really off-putting. Some people disagreed but most people just didn't see it.

1:32:46Sean Fennessey:They had no interest and it wasn't being sold on him. It was being sold on Will Arnett and Laura Dern. I'd be really interested to see if he just takes a mainstream movie star part because he now... I mean, it's really the mule is the last real movie star part he's had which is in 2018. and he's not even the star he's just the cop yeah and before that it's the star is born you know Nightmare Alley is a great performance but it's a great performance about like a demon like a possessed gross man and very little beyond that remember Burnt and he has to shuck all the oysters yeah that movie's really bad really bad such a strange character this guy survived Aloha and Joy you know well sometimes you gotta start asking you know is it the movies or is it number 16 number 16 i was there i was there when that happened really lives on doesn't it uh okay who you got i really want to do amy adams but i feel like amy adams has no one to blame but herself for taking these parts i think that that's unfair to amy adams and i'm not usually the person saying that on a podcast, but you got to take chances.

1:34:08Sean Fennessey:I admire that she is attempting to kind of push herself and do something physically in movies that most people are not willing to do. And I do think it's possible that the comeback will happen. It's possible it happens even this year because she's going to be in a movie called At the Sea, a Cornell-Mondrusco movie that could be exciting, could be an Oscar movie, could be a fall festival movie. Oh no, actually it's premiering at Berlin, so we'll actually know pretty soon what people think of it. Now, this could be the thing that gets her back on track, but Night Bitch, Disenchanted, Dear Evan Hansen, The Woman in the Window, Zack Snyder's Justice League, Hillbilly Elegy, Academy Award nominated for Vice, Justice League, Nocturnal Animals.

1:34:56Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. 2016 was a good year

1:35:00Sean Fennessey:I'm stopping there that's 10 years Nocturnal Animals come on have a little fun I don't get it I know there's a little cold for it Tom Ford coming back with a movie this year by the way I know I brought it to the most anticipated listen Jake Gyllenhaal can have a little fun and fuck around in Nocturnal Animals and everyone's fine with it but then when Amy Adams is there people are like oh no Amy Adams I appreciated that she was trying to do something I felt it was something she was not quite capable of doing well listen You got to push yourself as an artist. Wow, look at you. You've come to bat for the woman who you hate.

1:35:32I think, I don't hate. It's just that - Is she on the terminal list? She's not on the terminal list. But Hillbilly Elegy, Justice League, Woman in the Window. And then I think Dear Evan Hansen.

1:35:44Sean Fennessey:That's the low. That's the bottom. I still simply cannot believe that this is a film that exists, let alone a successful musical. I was shocked by what I saw on that screen.

1:36:02Sean Fennessey:You're like, that is a disgusting act. I cannot believe. It was bad. It was successful. That was a hit. I don't know what's going on in the musical world. Not a hit film. I want more for Amy Adams. You know, she also has the Taika Waititi film, Clara and the Sun, which apparently is finally coming out this year. I think it was finished in like 2023. I mean, I don't really feel good about. that's based on the Ishiguro the Kazuo Ishiguro novel right? yeah and then she apparently has a part in Star Wars Starfighter it's a that's tough yeah you're right she's doing it to herself a little I don't know I want a lot for her now she's still obviously she's got some juice you know she's getting these are three real movies that could be good Claire and the Sun I've got my doubts just given Taika Waititi but we shall see but Amy Adams is my number two who's your number two?

1:36:55she's your number two. Oh, wow. I didn't realize you were ahead of me. My number two is Regina Hall. Yeah. You know, which is just let us learn always from Paul Thomas Anderson, um, who identified the, the capabilities of Regina Hall beyond being the funniest person in any room or on any golden globe stage. Never forget Kevin Costner's sheltering in place.

1:37:18Sean Fennessey:That was really good. And, you know, I, I still remember the speech that she gives at the end of, of girls trip, which is an, it's the emotional, like you were all of my friends. She has the ability to pull people in, in addition to being so charismatic and so funny. But never gets the opportunity. And PTA did this year in one battle after another. That performance has kind of fallen to the side in award season, but she's amazing. It's a very quiet performance, right? It's him utilizing something different from her that she has a kind of power and a solemnity that is not usually tapped into. She's going to be in Scary Movie 6, by the way.

1:37:58Sean Fennessey:She's in several scary movies. Like she's a great comedic performer, but I agree with you that she has something else really cool there. She's going to be in a Nick Stoller movie that is kind of intriguing. She's the third lead in this Nick Stoller movie called Judgment Day. The premise is a reality television judge is taken hostage on air by a disgruntled man who blames him for his life spiraling into incarceration. that's kind of weird because that's also the premise of Money Monster the George Clooney Jodie Foster film but Money Monster is it funny it's not funny this is going to be a comedic version of Money Monster Will Ferrell Zac Efron and Regina Hall okay it sounds pretty good I'm open written and directed by Nicholas Stoller yeah okay number one Chris Pine yeah I watched a movie on Virtual Sundance last night called Carousel a very kind thoughtful emotional drama about two people who dated in high school and then separated from each other and were apart from each other for a long time and they find each other in middle life Chris Pine plays a local doctor and Jenny Slate plays a woman who moves back to her hometown to help her parents with their home as they get into their 70s a lot of really good actors in this movie Sam Waterston Jessica Harper Jeffrey DeMunn Abby Ryder Fortson who is the young girl in Are You There God It's Me Margaret she plays Chris Pine's daughter he's a single father I liked it didn't love it you know a little Sundancey on the edges you know in terms of some of its dramatic choices there's one scene in particular that happens in the middle of the movie between Jenny Slate and Chris Pine a kind of disagreement over a kitchen counter where it was like Julia Butters in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood I was like, that's the best acting I've ever seen in my life.

1:39:48Sean Fennessey:Whereas like Chris Pine, first of all, the script in that scene is really great. It feels like it's transcribed from a real fight. And I've often had that feeling when I've had fights with my partner where I've been like, I wish we could just write this down and go back and look at it one day later and like figure out what we were really trying to say to each other. And he's so good at representing like a really bad habit of masculinity when you're in a fight with someone you care about. And at least certainly a bad habit of mine. and I just always like Chris Pine I thought he was a very good franchise star he's a great Captain Kirk that should have not worked and it totally worked and it totally worked even I liked it you know he's quite winning in the Wonder Woman movie oh my god he's so great he's doing yeoman's work in Dungeons and Dragons I think that movie is pretty fun he tried with Jack Ryan it didn't fit uh his he similarly like a lot of the people that were listening here has had a pretty weird post like COVID to today run of movies yeah since 2020 he's in Wonder Woman 1984 which everyone hated but we were mixed on um The Contractor All the Old Knives Don't Worry Darling not his fault but not a great part right he's he's like the podcast yes yeah um Dungeons and Dragons Pool Man which he wrote and directed which isn't it doesn't work he was King Magnifico in Wish which of course means the world to me right but is reviled by all Disney fans.

1:41:18Is Wish still hitting in the house?

1:41:20Sean Fennessey:No, it's kind of taking a backseat. We do still have the Asha dress going pretty hard though. She will wear the dress. Because it's purple, right? Because it's purple. Yeah, her fave. A film called The Kidnapping of Arabella. Not familiar with this. It's an Italian drama. He's the only American star. No, hold on. I think that that, yeah, that is the latest film by Carolina Cavalli who directed Amanda. I still haven't seen this. It was at Venice in Horizonte and I didn't get to it. I would like to see this. But I mean, shout out him. I don't know. That's cool. That he's in a, yeah. So this movie and Carousel, first of all, a male star in his mid-40s choosing to work with female filmmakers.

1:42:01Sean Fennessey:Carousel is also directed by a woman, Rachel Lambert. And that almost never happens. His next movie, I'm putting a red circle around it. Yes. It's called Alpha Gang. Yes. It's directed by the Zellner brothers. Mm-hmm. they directed Kumiko the Treasure Hunter Danzel couple things I really like they made the Sasquatch movie a couple years ago with Jesse Eisenberg an insane film get to it Alpha Gang is about humanoid aliens who arrive on earth seeking to destroy but they soon find themselves compromised with human emotions the stars are Cate Blanchett Dave Batista Lea Seydoux Lily Rose Depp Adria Arjona Duna Bay Calvin Harrison Jr.

1:42:40Sean Fennessey:and Chris Pine so it's like the most attractive people alive it's hot humanoids come to earth directed by the guys who made the Sasquatch movie. Okay. Why not? I'm paying attention. Yeah. I want great things for Chris Pine. I do as well. Listen, real ones knew with Princess Diaries too. Yeah. Okay. They did. Look at you. Just selling yourself out to Gen Z right now. Excuse me. I was there. Do you know the plot of Princess Diaries too? I don't. Okay. She's a princess. Yeah. She has a diary. Go on. In the first one, you know, she finds out that she's like the princess of Genovia, right? Genovia.

1:43:19Sean Fennessey:Genovia. That's different from Geonosis from Star Wars Attack of the Clones. And then she's like inherited, you know, Genovia. And then Julia Andrews has to teach her how to be like a proper princess of Genovia. And then in two, she's back in Genovia. But there are some like some legal challenges. and I think Chris Prine is like a pretender to the throne of Genovia. Oh my goodness. And then - They speak English in Genovia? They do. They speak English in what? And so, you know, they're at war, but also then of course they find love. It's, I mean, it's, you know, a classic opposites attract, you know, people, you know, enemies to lovers.

1:44:01Can't be beat. That sounds good. Yeah, it's great. And he's really good. Also, just my luck with Lindsay Lohan. Like if you don't understand how formative Chris Pine was in the mid-aughts to those of us watching garbage cinema. I feel like one of the... Garbage women cinema.

1:44:17Sean Fennessey:Garbage women. Garbage teens. Garbage teens. Yeah, that's what it was. Garbage teens is a good idea for an episode. Like I said, next week we don't have an episode. And I'm thinking, should it be like a hole filler episode where you're like, what's a hole in your movie watching life that you've never seen? Right. I've not seen Les Mis. I've not seen Mamma Mia. I've not seen any of the Princess Diaries films. They're pretty delightful. Anne Hathaway, that's your girl. It's not a movie swap, though, right? It has to be different from a movie swap. How are you writing so hard for Anne Hathaway and you've never done Princess Diaries?

1:44:51I think that's ignorance. She's like a teenager in those movies, right? I guess she's in high school, yeah. I'm not really sure where in her education she is in Princess Diaries, too. And I don't know whether she has to defer college to get to go. I'm not really sure what Genovia's education structure is. 2001.

1:45:08Sean Fennessey:Let's go back to me in 2001. Well. I'm living in the garden apartments at Ithaca College. Okay. Wow. Let's fucking go. I'm probably eating gas station pizza. Mm-hmm. 30-pack of Natty Light in the fridge. Okay. I'm watching the Sixers-Lakers NBA Finals with my college roommate, Pants. Yeah. Shout out to Pants. You know who you are. Um. I am getting drunk pretty frequently. Okay. Every third weekend, I'm driving to Baltimore to go see Eileen. Yeah. This I've heard about. I'm going to a lot of movies. This is, of course, the fateful year of Kill Bill. What kind of car were you driving back and forth to Baltimore?

1:45:53Sean Fennessey:Thank you for asking. In high school, I drove a 1980 Buick Regal. Okay. I've told this story before, I think, which was a brutal car that I inherited. A really old car. Yeah. we in my high school yearbook made a mini music video that featured the car prominently so then you just set to the sounds of Black Rob's whoa but in your yearbook in the video yearbook oh you had a video yearbook in 2001 wow pivoted video wow well we had a regular yearbook too okay so I drove a Buick Regal didn't make it past senior year I then inherited a 1993 Mercury Grand Marquis from my mom 1993 maybe 1990 another old car died freshman year oh no then okay I somehow like gained control of Eileen's 1994 I think it was a Saturn S1 okay it was a black Saturn all right and I was driving it through snowy Ithaca but were you on the insurance no oh definitely not Eileen allowed that well really Eileen's dad it was really his car wow These were some bum ass cars that I drove.

1:47:10Sean Fennessey:And so, yeah, I was driving down there to do that. So my point being, what's this like? So you weren't there. You weren't there. But listen. Princess Diaries comes out. You claim to be committed to the history of cinema. And I just have to tell you that the Princess Diaries and Princess Diaries 2 featuring Anne Hathaway, Julie Andrews and Chris Pine are formative. It appears Mandy Moore is in this film. She is? Yeah. Oh, is she like the stepsister or something? Is she like trying to... Jack, come on. I was going to say, I like how you're looking at me as if I have the answer. Sandra Oh is in the film?

1:47:43Sean Fennessey:Wow. Hector Elizondo, of course. Legend. Yeah, of course. I need to rewatch these. Anyway, Princess Diaries 2. Check it out. He was great in it. Did you do your number one yet? Just my luck. Not that good. No, my number one is Kirsten Dunst. I can cast Kirsten Dunst and stuff. She's doing great stuff recently. She is doing great stuff. Civil War, that rocked. Power of the Dog. Roofman. Roofman? Yeah, Roofman. Yeah, but she's like, she's the girlfriend in Roofman. I mean, it's a more complex part, but let Kirsten Dunst lead movies. Please go watch Bring It On. You didn't think her being an accomplished photojournalist who was present for the most critical moment in American history was a good enough part?

1:48:21And also buying a green dress because womanhood is complicated. No, sometimes you just need to see yourself

1:48:26Sean Fennessey:in a different light. Alex Garland knew. She's going to be in the new Ruben Oslin movie. Yes. I just, I, she is our one true, she is my one true queen. She's so good. She was on two of our 25 for 25 films. She was. Melancholia and Marie Antoinette. That's right. Listen, she can do Art House, but we also know that she can do big budget. So let her be a movie star. Let Kirsten Dunst cook. Who's a director you'd like to see her work with? I mean, she would be great with PTA. Did you see some of her like shade posting? I loved it. I was not going to bring it up. But yeah, she was just retweeting on the day of the Oscars, some very, or re-Instagramming, I should say, some Instagram reels and other content.

1:49:10Well, she was taking some shots at Timmy. No, the Instagram reel in question took shots at Timothee Chalamet. And it just said that what Jesse Plemons did in Wagonia was more complex than what Timothee Chalamet did in Marty Supreme. But didn't she also use the phrase, this is top level in one of the captions,

1:49:28Sean Fennessey:which is what he was saying about his performance. Oh, I thought that she, I mean, I follow her on Instagram, so I just watched her reprogramming. You would like this. I'm not saying you wouldn't like this. I know to be torn between Timmy and Kirsten Dunst, what will you ever do? But I do think she was taking some shots. Well, that's fine. I think she's pissed off. She's famously a very dedicated Oscar voter. She watches all the films. She's spoken of this. Maybe watch fewer films. Make more, you know? Why are you talking? Talk to everybody else. Maybe cast her in things. You know, let's get that.

1:50:02Sean Fennessey:Alex Garland didn't seem to have a problem with her. Let's get the Sophia Project going again, you know? Yeah, that seems like a good idea. They rumored that they were working on something. They made three films together? Virgin Suicides, Marie Antoinette, and The Beguiled. Yes. Interesting. Yeah. The Beguiled Rewatchables? You already made that joke on Top 50 Rewatchables. It was really good. Not as good as number 16 Limitless, but really good. That wasn't a joke. Okay, that's our list. This was a fun exercise. Yeah. Hollywood's fucking up. I like movie stars. You have a couple on your list that I think are good, though.

1:50:39Sean Fennessey:I really like Andy Samberg. I feel like Andy Samberg doesn't have... Yeah, well, really all of the SNL guys of that generation, like Jason Sudeikis is another one where he's pretty good, and I guess he's just... That's a great point. Well, he's making Ted Lasso now. Yeah, and I understand that that's a cash cow for him, but he is good. But all those guys were very likable and very good in movies. I also put Javier Bardem on here because he's so good at F1. And I'm just like, why don't we do this more? Just like, put him in a suit that fits. Did you see I got to use the F1 gif when the Mets made a trade?

1:51:10Sean Fennessey:No, I didn't. I did get to use it. Oh, congratulations. I think he literally says in that scene when they win the race, he's like, I can't believe it. But it works. This man has an Oscar and he can wear a suit. Just let's make it happen. Well, that does it for another very special episode of this show. Once again, we've figured out Hollywood. We've solved it. We've given people all the information that they need to do a good job. Next week is what I would describe as the darkest corridor of the year in Hollywood. Yeah. The award shit takes a pause. The new movies are not really coming out. That's right.

1:51:45Sean Fennessey:We got to get a little creative. We have a couple of things, a couple of new things to discuss. So originally we were going to talk about The Moment, the new Charlie XCX movie, which is coming out in limited release that premiered at Sundance. I think we'll talk about it on Tuesday now. Right. You were going to talk about it today. We were going to talk about it today. And now we're going to talk about it on Tuesday. I thought you were telling me that we aren't going to talk about it on Tuesday. And I was like, no, Charlie, I'm ready. No, you will be muzzled and you'll never be able to speak of it.

1:52:07Sean Fennessey:No, we'll talk about it on Tuesday. If you're able, go see it. I'm going to end up seeing 30 Sundance movies. Are you serious? I've already seen 10. What is wrong with you? I'm doing the work. I do the work. I mean, you do, but... So we'll talk about that. Okay. I'll just tell movie titles to you. Let us not forget train dreams. Yeah, no, you were right. And what I was able to bring you. Maybe we can workshop your pitches and you're in real time on the podcast. And I can tell you that makes me want to see it or that doesn't make me want to see it. I got to tell you that thing that you just subscribed, one, is already my job.

1:52:41Sean Fennessey:Two, I'm pretty good at it. So - I have given you consistent direct feedback that your sale of train dreams did not effectively communicate the power of train dreams. Well, the Academy says otherwise. They say thank you for sharing that film with us, Sean, and we are going to nominate it for Best Picture. I want to spend a little time on People We Meet on Vacation, which is probably among the most watched movies of 2026 so far. I mean, I'll talk about it forever. Okay. I don't know if you have four hours of a Mel Brooks documentary in you, but I do want to mention I really like it. I think it's very good.

1:53:13Sean Fennessey:Judd Apatow directed a new HBO documentary about Mel Brooks who is turning 100 years old this year. And maybe some other stuff. Okay. Some news will come out. Yeah. For Monday. For Monday. And then we've got to come up with next Friday. Right. So we might be brainstorming topic ideas. Live on the show. Live. And then roulette wheel with the listeners. They get to choose what episode we do, which we've never done before, but I think would be fun. Right. Let's give it a go. Okay. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for all of his work on this episode. Thanks to the listeners at home. We'll see you soon.

1:54:19Sean Fennessey:We'll see you next time. textures. They're designed to keep you going without slowing you down. So put that fork down. Try the new wraps today in app or at order.sweetgreen.com. Available at participating locations only.