The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 1 - 'The Social Network’

29:45And imagine how bad the social network would be if it were, you know, James Newton Howard. Yeah. I mean, it would just be like fine. It's the same thing with the Eisenberg question where there's just a series of really, really good choices. I am very amused always by the needle drops in the movie, which feel more like a Gen X filmmaker being like, here's a cool White Stripes song that I like that maybe these kids were listening to in this bar in 2003. and then like the Dead Kennedys drop and the Zap drop and like songs that just like, you know, 20 year olds hanging out in Palo Alto in 2004 were probably not listening to.

30:20I don't think California Uber Alice was like the kickoff to the launch of the Facebook team, but it says a lot, I think, about how that generation views these kids, you know, and that there was like a misappropriation of the punk rock spirit of the generation that came before them, you know, that in the like techno, in the tech crusader mentality, you think you are like breaking the paradigm and breaking the system when in fact you are just like fortifying the system with new tools and again I think the choices in the movie are really really smart to that extent and also the fact that like there's always like an older guy who's right behind the scenes who's like actually making things happen you know we don't really spend any time with Peter Thiel in this movie you know but Peter Thiel is an engine of what transpires I mean it is it does hit differently than it did in 2010 when you say like do you know who Peter Thiel is?

31:10Yeah, but the movie knows. Who's that? The movie knows. Yeah. It's very powerful in the way that it associates like who really are the decision makers. And obviously someone like Mark Zuckerberg has become the decision maker. But, you know, there's so many things about this that like haven't aged well for lack of a better phrase to borrow a rewatchables-ism. It's like Armie Hammer. Yeah. Produced by Kevin Spacey. You know, there's like a bunch of stuff in this. It's just like, oh, gosh. I think, you know, we've learned more about Scott Rudin's behavior. than we knew in 2020. Yeah. No, it's not great.

31:43What does that tell you about the movie? But it is also, you know, make what you know, I guess. And also there is something poetic, I guess, about this is a movie about, you know, systems and like all the guys behind the curtain or reinventing the curtain and no one is behaving well. Yes. And, you know, it's, that's what does breaking something to improve it mean it's a really really good point yeah um i think that one of my takeaways watching it last night was that the idea of just because you can do something doesn't mean you should really resonates and that i feel like that era is over like we're not you know in society at large it's like there is no there are not guardrails really anymore yeah um in terms of what can be said what can be done what you can do at other people's expense right um there are no gentlemen of harvard exactly but even you know but even the idea of gentlemen of harvard is is played as ludicrous and ridiculous and speaking of of canceled people then they demand their meaning uh for the harvard code of ethics in front of larry summers yes exactly who is the president and he was such an yes and we're just it's assholes all the way down yes yes and and and like it it's a real takes one to no one kind of thing.

33:03And the fact that all of these people populate this world, I think tells you everything you need to know about what really is going on in this world. The Gentleman of Harvard thing is really interesting. I would say I don't have as much exposure to these institutions that you've had over the years. I'm curious for your insights on how they operate and how accurate they are because I think to the common consumer, pretty mistrustful. Mistrustful of the institution or the portrayal on this? No, the institutions and the people who come out of them. Yeah, of course. But that feeling that my middle class parents had when I was growing up has been contorted and co-opted by American political leaders now about why you can't trust.

33:55Oh, I see. you know the elevated classes or the folks at these elite institutions yeah this movie has like a slightly different attitude towards it it is a very 2010 attitude toward it which is like these people are all stuffed shirts and they don't actually do anything or make anything right and you know and that it's handed down to them and that the winklevi call their dad's in-house lawyer and there's a whole bit about like they are going through like the credentials You know, the whole thing about the final clubs, which is like real. And, you know, the Porcelain is a real club. They all are.

34:31But the Mark Zuckerberg character listing, well, so-and-so was like this and so-and-so. So it does it apt and I think at least 2010 accurate reflection of like the old world vibe of these places and Harvard in particular. And the value that like the gatekeeping that those those people, the final clubs and anyone who tries to get in Harvard and really like at least in 2010, what you thought you're paying for or what you thought that you were inheriting. if you went to one of those places. So I think it's accurate. And I think, you know, the Larry Summer scene is perfect in many ways because like two entitled rich kids who get the meeting because of their dad and then are whining about the Harvard Code of Ethics and then the former Fed chair who is now stepping back for, you know, like everyone is just gross and ugly and connected in a way to things that you don't want to be connected.

35:39Yeah. And the idea that, you know, there's like a friction in the movie where we do want this web of connectivity amongst this closed circuit of people to be broken. We do want to see it broken. We don't want all this power to be concentrated in this place. It feels like a very kind of ancient concept of like the Roman consuls are all gathered together and they're deciding the fate of the common people. However, careful what you wish for because the way it can be shattered can be, you know, society altering. I mean, that's what the face mash final club party, like intercut is to me just like a real flex on a number of levels, including the actual, just, you know, the filmmaking, the cutting.

36:26But thematically, on the one hand, you have this guy building a gross website to pick which girl is hotter and also, you know, hacking all of the quote unquote stealing things. I mean, who really cares? Right. But, um, which, which is part of the, the fabric of the setup and on like, and then you're cutting to all the girls being bussed in to the club and, you know, showing off for these guys in backwards hats. That's my only note about the accuracy of how these worlds are portrayed. It's like no one in those rooms is that attractive. Yes. Just like for a note. And I do also wonder whether they're wearing backwards hats.

37:09But that's just... You think no one's ever worn a backwards hat at Harvard? In the Phoenix? I don't know. But... It's good to know. I just... It's a different type of bro that they're going for. I see. But I could be wrong. I don't think I would have fit in at Ithaca College. With their suit. I mean, like at the party. I'm sure they're wearing on their own time. I mean, that sequence does a really, really smart thing, which is that it shows you this fantasia of wealth and power where you watch the girls grinding and dancing and the guys kind of ogling. And you see that like this is the inside of the inside.

37:40Yeah. You know, this is the real skull and crossbones in 2010 or in 2003. But then the party, it feels like, is literally interrupted by the introduction of the tools that these guys create. You know, the conclusion of that sequence is someone's looking at a laptop and they're like, whoa, check this out. And then that is like a perfect metaphor for everything that happened to like multiple generations of people where they're just like, we no longer like ogle girls and they go to parties. We just like look at our phones and our laptops all the time. It's just such a smart idea. You know, but it's like the fundamental problem is unchanged.

38:14It's just how we're doing it and who has the power. Well, intensified and worsened because there's no human interaction. I'm not saying it was good the way that like the elites control people. But sure, it's I mean, it's arguable whether, you know, I as a young woman of college age when this was happening, I don't know whether I would rather be in the room at the Phoenix or on the website. I honestly don't know what's better for me in my development. Happily, I was neither. Well, I think that's another important thing to note is that the three movies that are at the top of our list, I think, came out of pretty critical developmental periods of our life.

38:49Yeah. And so The 25th Hour is a movie that was released when, I guess, I was 21 and you were 19. And The Social Network was released when I was 28 and you were 26. Yeah. But the period that it captures is the same period in which The 25th Hour was released, which is very pivotal for us. Facebook was essentially just getting introduced in my junior and senior year of college. And I remember it taking off like a flash right after I got out of college. You were at an Ivy. So you must have gotten it early. Yeah, we did. You had it early. Yeah. I had it my sophomore year. Okay. What was your experience with it?

39:37I mean, exactly what is portrayed. But I thought you wrote that the Dakota Johnson scene is not good. But that's how life happened. in 2004. I think her performance is good. I never woke up in bed with Sean Parker. I would like to state that for anyone listening at home. There's a critical flaw in the movie that many people have pointed out. But this girl would not have seen things in this fashion and no human did. Sean Parker did not invent Facebook. Sean Fanning invented Facebook. We knew this in 2001. You mean Napster. Sorry, Napster. Yeah. No one was like, No one knew who Sean Parker was. You knew who Sean Parker was maybe if you read Forbes.

40:17Right. Or you read Billboard. Sean Fanning was the kid. He was the Mark Zuckerberg of that story. So that scene, which is massive. Sean Parker invented Napster. Yes. Nice to meet you. Yes. That's like a massive exposition dump that's queuing us up for this character. You don't need it. I guess maybe you're revealing he has a proclivity for young girls, which the movie also points back to a number of times throughout. but that's the one sequence when I watch it then you wouldn't get what's your latest preneur which is still one of my favorite lines I think she's quite charming you can make the case she's never been better than in this movie is anyone majoring in French at Stanford?

40:56that's a really good question why go to Stanford for your French degree? it's also not the only young woman majoring in French in this movie because then the Oxford guy's daughter he's like French literature didn't know there was such a thing so I guess one of Aaron Sorkin like someone in Aaron Sorkin life, who's a woman, was majoring in French and he was upset about that. Right when you know. Yeah. Yeah. Do we think Rashida Jones's character also majored in French while studying law, French law? The scene is just like, it's just funny. It feels a little bit outside of the energy of the rest of the movie.

41:29And it is really riffing on Justin Timberlake's kind of turn of the century celebrity. He is another figure who kind of rose to power in the midst of this Napster craze and then and ultimately social media. And Justin Timberlake's not what he once was. He's not. He is understood socially and culturally in such a different way. In 2010. The world tour was still going in 2010. He was considered cool. I know this has got real like back to bed grandpa vibes, but Justin Timberlake was cool. He was corny. He was like a Disney kid. But he was a cool version of that. Was it the 2020 experience? Was this before?

42:10That was the beginning of the end. But this was before that. Oh, yeah. So this is like before Mirror. Oh, yeah. I think this is before Future Sex Love Sounds, right? Or maybe it's right around the same time. No, it can't be. Justin Timberlake albums. This is the logical conclusion. No, Future Sex Love Sounds was 2006. My college experience. Future Sex Love Sounds, 2020 experience is what? 2012? 2013. 2013. Okay, so yeah, this is the pivot point. And again, you really have to credit Fincher for understanding what was lurking beneath Justin Timberlake. But this movie has contempt for Sean Parker.

42:45I know. And does Justin Timberlake know the way in which David Fincher is reading into him so elegantly? I do not think so. It's amazing. It's an amazing choice. It's beautiful. Did Justin Timberlake mean anything to you, Jack? Not as much as it was for you guys. Okay. But everything you said is perfectly put. Like he, Fincher weaponizes everything that is the worst about Justin Timberlake in this role. It's amazing. And it's like he opened like the rest of our eyes and then, you know, out comes. All downhill from there. Yeah. He did a few other things that didn't really help him. But it is a brilliant bit of casting.

43:22I think there's great casting all the way down the line in this movie that is really, really incredible. What else? What else do you want to say about this movie that means so much to us and to this show? I mean, we've talked a lot about how prescient it was, how much it understands the world that we live in and and to some extent how it is lived on. But it's kind of hard to I do feel that some of the the younger listeners of the show who weren't there don't understand kind of the instant cultural impact that this film had. I mean, obviously it made two hundred and forty million dollars. So that's good.

43:59Yes. But. But, you know, we we talk a lot about films on this movie that are art for art's sake. And I think it's very important to keep making real art. And I also think the social network is incredible on a basic artistic level. Everyone is doing their job perfectly. But we also like movies that find an audience that have like a cultural moment. Like we are, we are children of Hollywood. And so there is something that, you know, this movie was a huge success in the moment, but it changed the way that we understood Facebook. It launched, it changed the way we understood the internet. Um, it, it, like the sociological impact of this movie is cool because, you know, movies still matter.

44:49And so when a film finds not just its audience, but kind of its place in the culture, that is significant. Yeah. And I think for us specifically, it's a developmental stepstone. Like it's just a time in your life where you're like, this is an adult examination of something that we experience as younger people. And that tends to always make a deeper impact on us. If we were 60 when the movie came out or 10 when the movie came out, it might not be number one on our list. Even though we still would have huge admiration for Fincher and Sorkin and the like. This is kind of dipping into the legacy of the movie question, but there's a couple things that I wanted to talk through.

45:25One, this movie is a massive breakthrough in digital filmmaking. I'm fond of films that are shot on film. I advocate for going to see movies projected on film. I think it's very important. I think some filmmakers are getting really deft and adept at digital photography in movies. Fincher's always been good. And this is like a massive exploration of the different kinds of texture and feeling that you can get from digital. Now, this is a movie about the digital world. So it makes sense that in a movie like this, you would want to explore, I guess it's the red one is the camera that was used on this film.

46:01Jeff Cronenworth shot it and he shot a lot of Fincher's movies, but it is very dark, very intimate, very smooth. that can sometimes be like code for like gloppy or like ai enhanced or something in this particular case it is porcelain like the movie is meant to be this smooth feeling like like running your hands over a dell laptop yeah in 2003 that you're meant to have this kind of like frictionless experience that's kind of what the internet created it created this idea of like convenience and ease and the false sense of connectivity that we believe we have when in fact you know what we really have is like division we have like literally tools in front of us that are keeping us apart but the the use of digital makes all that makes sense it makes all of it feel in a way that like it communicates at least to me that that there's danger it's a lot of this stuff but also it can look good and it can be really appealing yeah and that's what draws us And it's not not all great filmmakers can just pick up a new, you know, a new camera or digital and make it work.

47:18And I can think of a lot of my favorite filmmakers who have tried like their digital because it set it fit the this the era or the subject of the film. And it doesn't it doesn't look quite right. So this is it's it to me, it's clinical the the way that it all looks. And it's supposed to be sterile and, you know, like unexamined and cut off from everybody else. It's like a colonoscopy, though. Like that's this clinical aspect of it. It's like it's really getting in there. You know, it's like it is everything is picture perfectly clear. Yeah. Another point that I think you've made here that is really smart about the legacy is the trailer.

48:01Yeah. So the trailer is unbelievable. It does introduce a convention. Yeah. What is the song? Remind me of the song, Joyce? It's Radiohead. It's Creep. Right, Creep. The children's choir cover of Creep, which wouldn't... I don't know if it was the very first example of that. There probably was something that came before it, but it launched a thousand ships. I still remember where I was when I saw the trailer. Where were you? I was at BuzzFeed offices where I worked briefly, the new ones. I mean, there have been many since. and we just watched it on loop over and over again. And then I think like this was still the era where then you would just listen, I like listened to a children's choir singing radio and I was like, I'm not really sure.

48:47And then people started doing all the mashups. They were like, oh, you can put a children's choir singing radio head over anything and make it look, you know, meaningful or like important. So this was, it was understood in real time as like, oh, we do this now. Let me ask you a question. This is maybe a little penetrating, but I'm going to ask you anyway. Did you at any point in your life worry about having friends or enough friends or feeling socially like you were in a good place? At any point in my life? Yeah. Yeah, certainly in high school, right? I'm asking you. Yeah, absolutely. Which is, I guess, pre-internet.

49:31And I think high school is particularly isolating for, well, I was going to say young women, but everyone. I know it's hard out here for the guys as well. And you don't know who your friends are supposed to be, but there is such a performance embedded into our ideas of what American high school should be and how you're supposed to fit into it. And I went to a pretty like, quote unquote, traditional high school. So it was football and cheerleaders and or you were going to be the or you're going to do all your homework. And I was like the homework girl. So I think, yes, in the sense that I was worried about like the outward perception of it all, which is a little bit because of high school and a little bit because of the age.

50:21I don't know if I was like worried about amassing like friends on Facebook. Well, I mean, that's why I bring it up. Because the trailer is so propulsive and so impressive. And so like kind of inviting the way a thriller would be inviting. And it has this immortal tagline. You don't get to 500 million friends without making a few enemies, which is written in this white Helvetica text across Jesse Eisenberg's face on that poster, which is just an incredible movie poster as well. Again, this is like we used to be a proper country stuff, you know, where like the studios and the might that they had to work really hard to nail this stuff did make a difference.

51:00But everyone had staplers thrown at them. Well, among other things. Yes. I pointed out because one thing that the movie really circles well that I don't think I really, I don't think I intellectualized when we were going through it with the rise of social media was the idea of the friend request. This film ends on a friend request. the idea that you could ask someone, will you be my friend digitally? Yeah. And await their response. And the anxiety that that provoked in us. And I think many people will, most people will relate to what you described in high school. I actually had a little bit more trouble in the first few months of college than I did in high school.

51:37In high school, I always felt like I had a big group of people that I was friends with. And then in college, I was like, oh, I have to like make an effort in a way that I don't really know how to. But I think most people going through life, you move to a new city, you start a new job. You know, you meet your partner's friends. Like, there's kind of disorientation socially that a lot of people feel at different stages of their life. This movie introduced like a new and very, not this movie, Facebook did. But this movie located a very dynamic and intense version of that. We don't have social media in quite the same way.

52:10It literalizes the performance, right? It literalizes the perception and kind of makes the perception the overriding experience. And, you know, now we have it and it's like Instagram versus real life and all of that stuff, which we all. That is the evolution of that thing. Yeah. Which, like, you know, we all live by. And I obviously only, you know, I still only post the cute happy pictures of my children. Yeah. But. There are no unhappy photos of my child. Why would I take an unhappy photo? I really thought I was going to get a crying baby at Santa this year and I like wanted it, but I didn't.

52:43You got a good performance. Yeah. Well, I just, I think that the unhappy Santa photos are classic too, you know, but in our life, you know, now you only ever see the smiling ones. So. It's true. But I think you're right that this era was a cementing of what maybe only existed in our heads or interpersonally. And then it was written in ink, as Rooney Mara says, on the internet. Yes. And took on a life of its own. Yes. And for us, that was a big transition. I know. I'm sorry, Jack. That's all you've ever known in life. We screwed up, you know? I did nothing. As one battle taught us, it's not what we wanted to hand down to you, but we're sorry and it's your turn.

53:30It's your time now, Jack. You got this, buddy. All you got to do is destroy Facebook. Yeah. This is in many ways the most like go to bed grandpa podcast of all, but that's okay. This is, it's our podcast. Well, I think it's helpful, like as we get to the end of this list to talk a bit about like the emotional forces that led to the creation of the list. You know, like there's no good list and there's no bad list. It's a personal, it's personal choices. This is a movie that clicked for both of us. Two people who've really spent the bulk of their lives working on the internet and seeing the ways in which the internet can be incredibly creative and gratifying and exciting or even just like endorphin hitting.

54:07Yeah. And also all the ways they can like make people feel bad and hurt them and put distance between them. And the illusion of access, the illusion of connectivity is so powerful and so wrong. And yet I've told stories on this show many times that like some of my best friends, including your husband and Chris Ryan, I only know because of the Internet. Like I would not have been connected to those people. So like the power that the movie is expressing is real. It's just like used for evil. Yeah. But also the movie does not really express or commit itself to any of the upsides of the Internet. It's true.

54:45That's a very sorkid thing. I mean, it is. And it's even to the point where, you know, at some point Mark Zuckerberg does get chastised for blogging because this is Aaron Sorkin lived through all the West Wing message boards and all the Sunset, you know, Studio 60 message boards. And you know what? It's understandable. I get it. No one likes to be criticized. No one likes to be criticized in permanent ink on the Internet. Right. That's not easy. The point is more that the movie does understand that this kicked the portal wide open, but everybody walked through in handcuffs. You know what I mean?

55:19Just because you got in the door, it doesn't mean that you're free. And it's just a fascinating exploration of that. Whether or not the filmmakers projected all of this deep meaning onto the movie at the time in which they were making it, who knows? It pretty much doesn't matter at this point. The movie is eternal for us for all of these reasons. And yet, it did not win Best Picture. Yeah. Even though it was widely hailed as a masterpiece, was a box office hit, felt chilling in the way that it summed up all of these feelings that were just really rising to the surface in our culture. Eight nominations, three wins.

56:01It won for Adaptive Screenplay, Aaron Sorkin. one for editing which Kirk Baxter and Angus Wall who are this is one of the tightest sharp like sharpest just like sexiest movies ever made because of that like it is just gorgeously put together and and the two hour you know there is a precision to it like everything has to hit its mark exactly yes for like super organized type A people this movie is fucking pornography and then Reznor and Ross won for score. Yeah, of course, which is a great win and a very cool win, you know, and like we give the Academy a lot of shit over the years about the dumb stuff that they do.

56:41And I'm about to give them shit about this one. But giving Reznor and Ross the score win, that's awesome. That's really cool. That's a fairly progressive choice to your point about how it being like a turning point in film composition, film music composition. King Speech wins Best Picture. I mean, this was tough. And Tom Hooper wins Director over David Fincher. And David Fincher still does not have a Best Director Oscar or any Oscar. No, he does not have any Oscar. It was bad. It was bad in the moment. It gets worse the further we get from it. Obviously, Harvey Weinstein played a massive role in that.

57:14And this was kind of one of the last, I think, major triumphs. Not the last. Not right. Of course, the artist. Because the artist comes immediately after this. What the fuck? I mean, things were bad. I mean that's abominable to go were they in succession? I think they were in succession King's Speech and The Artist I mean that's just brutal anyhow I think the Hooper win is really bad let's just look back at the Hooper win really quickly the other nominees that year were Darren Aronofsky for Black Swan David O. Russell for The Fighter Fincher and Joel and Ethan Coen for True Grit I mean say what you will about the character of any of those four men who were nominated alongside Tom Hooper They are bigger stars, more celebrated auteurs with huge careers.

58:02Also, all these movies were big hits. Yeah. How the fuck did the King's speech? What happened? How did this happen? I will never get over this. I will never get over it. From the moment it happened, I was like, how can we possibly live in these times? There have been many of these over the years. I think we can talk about a couple of the most extraordinary and baffling choices. Most of them are ex post facto. Most of them are like, how green was my value over Citizen Kane. That's one we talk about all the time on the show. You called this, this is like Citizen Kane if he went on trial in the middle of the movie, right?

58:37That's what the social network is, right? Where you get these deposition sequences where you get to explore the William Randolph Hearst type character being interrogated by lawyers. But how green was my value came from John Ford. It's a big, romantic, beautiful family epic. You kind of see it. Citizen Kane was not considered the greatest movie of all time when it was first released. Forrest Gump over Shawshank or Pulp Fiction, you know. Right. It's a bad win. Yeah. It's a bad win. Right. I like Forrest Gump. I'm on the record about liking Forrest Gump. Right. Pulp Fiction was massive in its time as well, but you could see it was like an edgier movie.

59:13Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. It was a new form of filmmaking. It was Harvey Weinstein in an earlier era. Mm-hmm. It was a director who we didn't have a huge relationship to. Yeah. Robert Zemeckis had already given us a lot of big movies and Back to the Future and so on and so forth. Dances with Wolves over Goodfellas is a tough one. It is. You can see the case for it. But yeah. Right? American Western. Yeah. Like ultimately uplifting or not uplifting but like heartful tale of the origins of this country. Like a slightly more progressive bent on the stories that we saw set in the American West with a sort of bona fide screen icon at the center of it.

59:52you know writing directing doing all that like you understand why it happened even though if you don't agree yes and you can still go back and look at Dances with Wolves and say there's a lot in this movie that is good it's not good fellas you know just like How Green is My Valley is Not Citizen Kane but you can kind of see it even Shakespeare in Love over Saving Private Ryan even that you could say Tom Stoppard's script yeah really great performances there's something like about the kind of verve in that movie that is at least defensible to me. Right. You know? Listen, I always liked it. And, you know, with the release of Hamnet, I'm like, oh, I really like it.

1:00:31Yes. And you can also say that Steven Spielberg already had his moment with Jurassic Park and Schindler's List and winning the Oscar. That all happened. So the Academy was like, you know what? We are going to zag on this. Crash over Brokeback is just as bad. I'm not going to pretend like it's not. It's just as bad. Crash sucks. It sucked when it came out. Brokeback Mountain is a beautiful movie. It's probably like number 27 or 28 on our list. It should have won. I think it's a borderline masterpiece. So I won't pretend like that one isn't as defensible because it's not. But all the way up until that point, and The King's Speech is not a bad film.

1:01:07It's just like not really anything interesting. Like it's fine. It's just like it is the, if you have Winston Churchill in your movie, you win an Oscar rule, which is really silly. But you win best director? I don't defend it. Are you kidding me? You haven't even seen Tom Hooper's Les Miserables. Okay, so you can't come to me and say that you understand the disgrace of Tom Hooper winning over David Fincher. Have I seen any Tom Hooper films since he defeated David Fincher? Do you know how close it is on Anne Hathaway's face when she's singing for her Oscar? I totally forgot. He directed Cats. Yeah.

1:01:46Listen, it's not good. You know how many films he's made since then? Cats? Yeah. Zero. Zero. Yeah. That was a tough one. How did this happen? How could we let this happen? I really, really don't know. I mean, it is an extension of how could we let Harvey Weinstein, you know, happen. Run the Oscars for 10 years? Far graver things that Harvey Weinstein did. No, of course. He's a monster. So it's, but it's, it's really bad. It's really bad. Thumbs down. I'm sorry. I probably will have the energy to do that spiel for the rest of my life. That's good. Yeah. You gotta channel things. I do believe in this film.

1:02:21You won't have earned it until you've sat through Tom Hooper's Les Miserables. I just want to let you know. Some additional context for how crazy this loss was for the social network. Okay. Only three films have ever swept the big four critics awards. Okay. Schindler's List, which did go on to win Best Picture, LA Confidential, which did not. Right. And the social network. Now, one battle after another? Has it swept? Not yet. That's right. What are we waiting for? New York film critics. Right. Los Angeles film critics. NBR. I don't believe the National Society of Film Critics has weighed in yet.

1:02:57Okay. That will be announced on January 3rd. Interesting. So we can find out very soon whether or not it joins it. And our There Will Be Blood episode. I quoted Manola Dargis' review at the time. I'll quote her again here. Mr. Fincher and Mr. Sorkin offer up a creation story for the digital age and something of a morality tale, one driven by desire. Marked by triumph, tainted by betrayal, and inspired by the new gospel, the geek shall inherit the earth. Manolo is the best. Yeah, I think this came in at number 10 on the Times Top 100. Yeah. And also number 10 on the readers. Are you surprised by that placement?

1:03:42No, again, I do think that it has been a little lost. To time or underappreciated or people didn't connect with it in the way that we did. Where was Zodiac on those lists? Zodiac is 19. Okay. So it did top Zodiac. Dawn Girl is 64. Also just a phenomenal film. Yeah. What were you going to ask? Do you want to get into this over Zodiac? This is the Fincher pick? Let's do that. Okay. you want me to express my feelings first or do you want to talk about the proposed trade oh right so a couple weeks ago you said you would give me one battle over there will be blood if I gave you Zodiac over social network which I thought was just two bad decisions and I said absolutely not it was a ripe fodder for a podcast which we are now exploring I thought it was an interesting idea yeah I'll make the case for it Zodiac does not have Aaron Sorkin And so it doesn't neatly tie up this series that we've done.

1:04:47And I think you're right. Speak to twinned interests of ours.

1:04:54Zodiac does something. Zodiac is the master in the way that the social network is there will be blood. Yeah. Zodiac and that those two films that were the that are the more mysterious explorations by filmmakers at turning points in their careers. you know there's something interesting about that and Zodiac is a movie to me that is still unresolved not just in terms of the crime in the film but in terms of what Obsession really does to us The Social Network is also a film about Obsession this is a recurring theme for all of Fincher's work I think it is the movie that is the most representative of his work I think that's fair and I I'm like I'm very excited to watch it again but it's a different kind of watch than the social network watch that you were describing, which I shared, which I was like, this is fun.

1:05:44You know, like it's really enjoyable to just be, you know, to be on the hang glider of this movie and to just be flying through in one hour and 56 minutes. The entire story of how everything came apart. The Zodiac is longer, more discursive. Right. It has way more characters. It's a much bigger world. It's more confusing.

1:06:09more it's upsetting in a different way it is and you know I can think of specific set pieces that are so messed up and they're like electrifyingly messed up so you're like I can't believe you're doing this and now I feel really terrible and that can happen all at once in broad daylight I just I do feel that we already have a movie from one of our great male filmmakers about how being obsessed in California in a time that is not the present or the recent past can really fuck with you. And that film is called Mission Impossible Fallout. I agree with you. I was offering to trade because I was like there's no way you can get away with The World of Blood and Zodiac.

1:06:58They're too similar in a way. They're too similar in terms of what they're trying to accomplish. I think. And they came out within a month of each other. Right. And There Will Be Blood is true or is your PTA pick and that's your passion. And I, so if we were going to do that, then there's no reason to do Zodiac as well. I agree. I understand it. It's the only other movie that I think was really genuinely contending for me. I agree that Gone Girl is very much in third place and is a great movie that we love and I think is also a bit, still a bit misunderstood and incredibly clever and insightful about a lot of things in our culture and the way in which we like consume and identify celebrity, what we share publicly about our relationship versus what's really going on.

1:07:40It's an incredible movie about Ben Affleck, who is the patron saint of my half of this podcast. He's made a bunch of movies this century though. You know, he has not been, he's, you know, Panic Room, very slick, cool thriller that I love. A Curious Case of Benjamin Button, a film I've always had a hard time getting into, to be honest with you. So that wasn't really under consideration. Girl with a Dragon Tattoo. Awesome movie. Banger. Awesome movie. Great winter holiday movie. Underrated Christmas movie. A movie I like a lot. A movie I would love to do on the Rewatchables. All-time Enya movie?

1:08:12Absolutely. Among many other things. Mank? Yeah. We've got a soft spot for Mank. Yeah, who doesn't like Mank? A lot of people. That's true. I think it's bad. But Mank is also like... If Mank had been co-written with Aaron Sorkin, Like you do kind of wonder whether, because Mank is Fincher. Interesting thought. Mank is Fincher trying to get into his more sentimental side. But you know, those are not muscles that he exercises that often. So what could they have done together? They never did reunite. You know, apparently a little bit of interesting creative tension between them in the making of this movie.

1:08:53The killer, a movie I also love that was not going to be a contender. And then next year, The Adventures of Cliff Booth. I'm open to it. Well, I think we have to be for a variety of reasons. That would be a curious choice. Recommend it if you like. I think Citizen Kane, we can leave it at that. Yeah, yeah. Or? I wrote down the big picture podcast. Yeah. If you like this pod, if you like the vile energy that we are giving each other every day, you'll probably, but in a rat-a-tat format. Right. You know? We're talking fast. Yeah. everything's over everything's done and we're just talking through it we are talking through it potentially Luca Godanino's artificial next year about Sam Altman maybe who knows oh wow well I'd like to like it wow is that actually happening that movie I mean I've seen a lot of set photos I think so as far as I know who's playing Sam Altman Andrew Garfield Andrew Garfield oh yeah sheesh that's the real sequel yeah to the social network man oh man well um that's it for the countdown.

1:10:00Yeah. I wanted to say thank you to Sam Birtwistle who really helped us a lot in the construction of this list and in putting together a lot of research, especially over the summer. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode and the entire series, which has been quite an undertaking for this show. It may not seem that way, hopefully, because there's a lot of ease of use with these episodes, but tacking on a third episode virtually every week. It was a choice that we made. It was a choice that we made. as you mentioned the selection special will be airing later this week that is I don't even is that conversation like two hours how long was it Jack yeah I think it's a I think it's a touch maybe over two it's right around there was there screen sharing is that part of the final edit there is no there's no screen sharing that was just yeah so we're just narrating the spreadsheet in real time yeah probably not very visually interesting yeah this is our last episode of 2025 Yes.

1:10:58How are you feeling about that? I'm ready to not look at my face. And I would hope that other people also take a break from my face and yours. But I'm grateful to everyone for listening, right? Yes, and watching and seeing your face. I guess so. This has been a very big and at times challenging but fun year for the show. we are very grateful for all the people who listen to the show watch the show go to the movies engage with movie culture think about what movies mean to them and why they matter so darn much to us buy plastic I love the people who buy plastic and physical media do more of that in 2026 I love the people who watch movies and then go outside okay but it is true we could not do this show we wouldn't get to do this if it weren't people listening to it and caring about it and caring about movies so thank you to all of you truly Thank you.

1:11:51Happy New Year. We'll see you at the movies.