The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 16 - ‘Oppenheimer’

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0:48I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Oppenheimer. And now I am become death destroyer of worlds. Okay, Amanda. Here we are. Oppenheimer. This is the 12th feature film from Christopher Nolan. Now, Christopher Nolan, some would say, I'm not sure if I would say, maybe I would say, is the 21st century filmmaker. The most successful and significant maker of movies in this century. Do you agree with that suggestion? Certainly of movie culture, as we know it now and as we have been marveling that it, you know, it has died many deaths this century.

1:30and then seems to be back. And he's played a big part in bringing it back and advancing it and I guess preserving it. If you, you know. Defending its honor. Sure. At least it, you know. For him. And for canisters everywhere. So I think he's representative if he is not like the, so maybe signature is the right word. It's interesting. you know, this show, our intention with this show, not just the series, but the show is to kind of represent modern movies and modern movie culture. We talk about every new movie that comes out. And yet you and I over the years have had complicated relationships to various Christopher Nolan movies.

2:13I did not think we could do this list without finding a way to acknowledge Christopher Nolan. Right. Well, actually at first you did because as listeners. No, I didn't. I didn't. uh what so here's here's uh well did did i did i not put the dark knight on the original list i put it on yes but i but i went with it yes and then and then when we recorded the big debate i took it off you did and i was going to replace it with a film i won't reveal that film but one film came off of our list that was on as recently as a month ago and we have replaced it because I ultimately just didn't feel like we could do this activity without acknowledging Nolan.

2:54Now, I thought that Dark Knight was right. And I thought the Dark Knight won. So did I. I suggested the Dark Knight. So why aren't we doing the Dark Knight right now? I don't think it's as good as this movie that we're talking about. That's really what it comes down to. I think that both movies have incredibly high highs. You can argue which movie has lower lows. The Dark Knight made sense to me as a representative of superhero culture. Yeah. I can say now there are no superhero movies on our list. don't once again don't look at me it's yes you know you wanted Iron Man 2 and I said no I said I would not maybe The Dark Knight that's the Mickey Rourke one that's the Mickey Rourke one okay I've seen it I think Nolan's contributions and his individual films are incredibly meaningful influential powerful Oppenheimer to me is the culmination of everything that he's been working towards it feels right to me now this movie is also for me your favorite Nolan a masterpiece yeah I think it is extraordinary like a breathtaking movie.

3:47It's maybe a little bit less fun to talk about this one because we just talked about it two years ago. It came out almost exactly two years ago. For like seven months because it was the best picture frontrunner. For the entirety of its run. And then just cleaned up. It is one of the great bulldozers in modern awards history. And it was also a massive success at the box office. And so when I say culmination, I think creatively it's fully realized, but also it did everything in a way that I'm not sure if I could think of a single comp for how big and I guess Titanic is really the only comparison.

4:25Yeah. In the history of movies, really. You know, you could say, oh, like the Ten Commandments or something, you know, there's occasional examples of these massively scaled movies. But, you know, we have like affection and appreciation for a lot of movies in the 2000s from Nolan. He's made 11 movies this century. Do you want to talk about those 11 movies before we dig in Oppenheimer? Yeah. Do you want to go through and should we talk about why it's not these movies and why it is Oppenheimer? Because that was sort of the, I agreed with you ultimately. Like we closed that list. There was no Nolan on it.

4:57For me, that was kind of a fun month talking to people about it and like talking to a lot of people who were like, oh, I, you know, I wonder which Nolan you'll have. And I wonder which whatever. And I chuckled to myself like, ha ha. The answer is no Nolan, but you're right. I didn't want to troll people, though. It felt like a troll. Well, to me, it felt fun. Because you are a troll at heart. No, I'm not. But I, you know, and I liked the pure. That's not fair because the original version of this list had the Dark Knight on it. It did. So, and I still am kind of like, I don't know why it's not that one.

5:31But we spent a lot of time trying to figure out which Nolan it should be. And we basically, like, couldn't agree. And we have finally agreed on this one because I do think that two thirds of this movie are like truly sublime. And I guess I sort of feel that way about The Dark Knight. Like the first two thirds of that movie are like the most incredible thing you've ever seen. And then the movie kind of keeps going. So if I can make space for Dark Knight, like I can agree on Oppenheimer where when it gets it right and it gets it right a lot of time, it is breathtaking and exciting. and even rewatching it, just like the pace of it and the editing and the score, the actual like craft decisions plus Clay Murphy's performance.

6:16Like it's really, it's very, very good. I do think there are a few other Nolan movies on this list that I could have made a pitch for. I could have too. I know, but they aren't the same ones. I agree. That's part of what makes it fun. I agree. That's part of what makes it fun. I think, let's just start with 2000. Memento comes out in 2000. Memento, as I've said many times on the show, a great dawning moment for me, a movie I love. I don't know if I think it's a five-star flawless film, but given the expectation of not knowing anything about this filmmaker, I had not seen following when it came out.

6:51And the intricacy of the design and the execution around the plotting and the way that it looks and feels, it's just a very sophisticated, mature thriller. Right. Very smart movie. Great Guy Pearce performance at the center of it. There could have been a case for this. It would have been, that would have felt a little troll-y to say like, no, no, no, not Interstellar, not Inception. No, it's like kind of cute. A little cute. Yeah, a little cute. Which I rewatched it for, because I thought it was eligible for our 2000 draft. So I rewatched it. Great movie. And that real like, just what am I watching?

7:24Sort of in a way that is engrossing rather than off-putting. There is like a little bit too much like Jonathan Nolan puzzle box aspect to it for my personal tastes, but it's arresting for sure. 2002 Insomnia, a remake and kind of an outlier now when we look at his career, a movie that he didn't write that I think has good performances, but is a fairly rote cat and mouse serial killer thriller. Yeah. That was not really in consideration. I know. Batman Begins, I've always thought, is a good and not great movie. I think it sets a new template for a kind of superhero storytelling. I think it is like basically a lead-up movie in the way that a lot of 2000 superhero movies were kind of like the first one is just set in the table for the second one, which is going to rock.

8:15Well, sure. That's the Star Wars method. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But, you know, without the originality of building the entire world. Spider-Man does a similar thing in the 2000s. um including this would have been sort of like the we're not building a hall of fame right you know and you you sean always want to include like the one that starts one but in this case we're not doing the one that starts it no 2006 the prestige yeah among my favorites at home being like what about the prestige good what about girls what about the girls sorry i don't mean to exclude them yeah who love the characterization of uh scarlett johansson's character in this movie you Is it not sophisticated?

8:53Is it not a strong woman? The Prestige, I think, is very good. Yeah. Very good. A more than above average movie. The Dark Knight. Well, it's quite something. Excellent film. When it's going, it is rocking. It is. I think I have a hard time not nitpicking Nolan movies from this era to death. And that's just a fact about me. Okay. This movie and then Inception. Yeah. And then The Dark Knight Rises. I'm not going to blow past them. I promise I won't. Okay, I'll just say, from 2008 to 2014, I have a hard time not nitpicking those movies. I don't know why. Flaw of mine, fact about me, whatever you want to say.

9:34It just is something that when I watch these movies, I don't feel this way all the time, and I'm usually quite forgiving of this. But when I feel someone getting close to greatness and from my perception missing, I can't help but claw at what's missing to me. and even though The Dark Knight had me vibrating in the theater at times, it's a few decisions I don't love. And as I thought about this... Are you afraid to speak on them right now for fear that people will start yelling at you again? No, I think it just... I think this movie kind of concludes awkwardly. And I think once Heath Ledger is no longer at the center of the story, the air goes out of the balloon.

10:18in a lot of ways, you know? And I think that characterization is extraordinary. I think the rendering of Two-Face and Aaron Eckhart is at first intriguing and then kind of goofy. And I don't totally buy his transformation, you know, him being kind of like red-pilled and being a chaos agent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's just a couple things I don't love about it. It's so funny you could say all of those things about Oppenheimer. You could. Like copy and paste them. I won't, but you could. Well, one could. but one is not apparently being given the opportunity to do that on this podcast. Anyway, the Inception one.

10:55This would be your number one pick? Well, I think maybe. I think if we want the Dark Knight, if we're not going to do Dark Knight, then Inception is, I think, the signature. It was like the real. He does Dark Knight and then he's like, but wait, I got Leo and a top spinning and people like shooting each other in some snow for a long period of time. And it was that first real, like, Nolan read it. Can you believe this, man? Like, what happened in this movie? We were all in it together way. And it really did work for me. I just, I bought into the absurdity of it. And I don't know why Michael Caine couldn't just bring the kids to France.

11:37But, like, also I didn't care, you know? Yeah, just a really good example. To the U.S. from France. Yeah, just, but, like, a movie that just did not stand up to, like, any examination. from me personally. And I know that giving yourself over to movies is a big part of enjoying movies. Again, for whatever reason, I really like this movie. People think I hate it. I don't hate it. I like it. And there are moments, the hallway fight in particular, where I'm like, I've not seen anything like this before. And I think that because of the way that he was kind of narrativized as Spielberg meets Kubrick, you know, that that is who this guy is.

12:10It's like, imagine if Kubrick directed an Indiana Jones movie. I just don't see it that way. And I think I've actually come to understand better who he is and what he represents in movie culture. Because he's not like either of those guys. And it's useful to be removed from that period in time and look back at the movies. In fairness to these movies that we're talking about right now, I have revisited all of them at least once and usually twice since kind of like arriving at my annoying guy attitude about them. And I kind of still feel the same way about The Dark Knight Rises, which we did watch along on.

12:44The Dark Knight Rises was not on any of our lists. Very silly movie. A lot of fun. I think it's actually easier to enjoy that for me because I'm like, nobody is trying to tell me this is the greatest movie ever made. It's definitely like this rocks kind of movie. Yeah. But it's very silly. Sure. And it kind of reveals, I think, a lot of the silliness in a lot of Christopher Nolan's movies. Like his kind of, his conception of good versus evil and what man is battling. it's certainly they're deep themes but they're rendered strangely at times I would say you know like his relationship to female characters is pretty complicated and maybe not the most acutely understood yeah he's a he's a man on an island who is you know literal or figurative who's just trying to he sees the way but he can't get there but you know he really is probably the only person who could get there if anyone could, but then no one can because life is terrible.

13:44So now we just have to use a lot of guns. The generation directly beneath us believes that Interstellar is the one. And if this were a podcast hosted by 32-year-olds... You know, I think there are many of those out there. And go check out that show. You know, and there's a pickup podcast or 12 that you can find outside many of the Interstellar ref screenings. So listen, find your people if that is what you want. But I think Timmy Chalamet is very good in this. That's your first note on Interstellar? I don't know what's going on in this movie. I mean, I do, but I think it might be a McConaughey thing for me.

14:22Oh, wow. This only really falls apart for me at the end. Yeah. I think that it kind of is an indulgence of explanation. And one thing that I have appreciated about the way that his filmmaking style has changed since this movie in Dunkirk, Tenet, and Oppenheimer, which is the era I have enjoyed the most. Sure. Is that he has gotten less self-conscious about making us feel comfortable in his heady ideas. That he is comfortable letting us sort through it, which is the thing I was always banging my gavel about with him, which is like, stop telling me how every single thing works. I find it obnoxious.

14:57And in this movie, the collision of that, the sort of like, I have read all the science, plus love is actually the answer, which to me is the most saccharine, lame conclusion to an otherwise like quite fascinating and sophisticated examination of like the distance between us, the distance across the world, the inability for people to connect really. Like I think that's what ultimately Interstellar is about, that what we put between us and why we can't stay together and say what we really need to say to each other. That's a great and deep idea and the way that he concludes those things never really made sense to me.

15:27So I was never really going to seriously put Interstellar on it, even though I do think it's a great achievement. And Interstellar Inception being original movies at a grand scale, from one of our best directors should be applauded. Just not in this countdown. Okay. Dunkirk? Should we have more strongly considered this? Yes. You want to do it? You're going to throw an elbow? We did. I threw them all at you. What did I say? And you said no. That was all I said? Yeah. I had no other responses? You basically, it was on text message. You were just basically like, nah. I think that's like literally what happened.

16:05I like Dunkirk. I like Dunkirk. I think it's quite good. It's really, really good. I think it's quite good. And I think maybe it doesn't get me emotionally the same way it does you or Chris or Quentin Tarantino. You know, clearly like it has an effect on people. The Holy Trinity. My Trinity, yeah. My team. I think Dunkirk is very, very good. I thought it was very good when it was released. I think it's very good now. It's not my favorite. I think it's clever. And I do feel like he had, like I said, I think he unlocked something. Right. And his willingness to take chances with that. triple time structure that he's doing to unfold that story that is tremendously complicated if you try to unpack it, but doesn't feel that way when you're watching it.

16:46I didn't feel confused watching that movie. No, not at all. And I think he also does figure something out emotionally in all three stories without having to really, without hammering home that this is about, you know, your feelings over time and space and like love is the answer. They are more character based, grounded in the moments. But, you know, the. The Barry Keegan character, the Tom Hardy character, like it's all really heartrending, even like Kenneth Branagh, just like standing on a dock, like using Kenneth Branagh voice, like he he hits the like tonal frequency. I do also think that, you know, this is a movie about like a really important and serious stuff.

17:34And it is like a war movie. But it is and on like a grand scale or even on three grand scales because of the three timelines. But it is not saying this is about the most important thing that has ever happened in the history of the world. so the gravity of the situation and the gravity of the emotions is communicated like through the film itself as opposed to the dialogue which I think is something that speaks in its favor. I agree. I don't have very many bad things to say about the movie. It just doesn't hit me the same way that honestly the next two do. Well, I made a push for Tenet too. Tenet would have been interesting and also would have felt like a troll.

18:18Yeah, that's what you said. We love Tenet on this show. I think Tenet... I don't understand it, and every time we talk about it, I understand it less, but I love it. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. I don't know if it's really very thematically deep at all. Like, at all. What is it about? The immutability of friendship. Buds? Yeah. Bros, hangin'. But that's not something that occurs to you until you get to the very end of the movie. You know? Like, it's not clear. Is Elizabeth Debicki's son Robert Pattinson? uh no I believe that was debunked oh that's sad but so then why they're bros because John David Washington just knows that he's gonna find Robert Pattinson again in some timeline correct and then are they gonna have to save the world again probably and like they're just gonna do the opera house forever I think so but it's cool because you know you got a pal this is like me and your husband you know it's like we don't have to talk we can go two months not talk and we'll just pick right up am I Elizabeth Debicki in that situation insofar as we're going to have Kenneth Branagh murder you yes well listen as long as I can dive off the yacht you know that was very elegant that's a lot to live up to yeah thank you Tenet is a ton of fun and I was so Freeports Freeports I forgot about that I was very happy to have that movie in that time in history yeah I really really like that movie it's not to me it's just not as good as Oppenheimer yeah and that brings us to this moment okay now your notes on Oppenheimer are have been acknowledged in time.

19:48There is an entire episode of this podcast in which you shared those notes. There are multiple. Let's talk about what's good about it. Yeah, and why it's here. I mean, here's, I made a couple of notes. I feel like these are important things to state around Nolan. One is, this is like an operatic humanist. It's a person who really believes in the theory of the great man. And it's a synthesis of a lot of those ideas. And a little bit of a self-recrimination. Like the movie is very metatextual because it's about kind of like Like what happens when someone with good ideas gets to follow through on those ideas?

20:20I've always enjoyed the reading of Christopher Nolan watching the Marvel industrial complex rise in the aftermath of his Batman movies and him thinking like, oh my God, what have I done to the thing I love? That may be a little too cute. It's actually like a little offensive. when then you, if, like, it's probably not fair to Christopher Nolan to be like, he looked at Marvel and then was like, well, I must tell my story with J. Robert Happenheimer. But it's not my responsibility to be fair to him. It's my responsibility to read movies and movie culture. And like, it is undeniable that obviously this world's historic significant event that has, that like speaks to the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives over time.

21:00And also just to like a complete realignment of how we live. and like the fear and anxiety and like mortal danger that the entire world is now in. But this is something that I think it's fair to say like artists do, you know, like they take the world's events, they take our experiences and they think about how they're filtered through themselves. Like that is, I think that's ultimately okay. It doesn't have to be as glib as superhero movie bad. But the thing that I think makes him kind of the heir to Spielberg, the heir to James Cameron, the heir to these handful of filmmakers that get you, no matter what they're doing, to just be like, I gotta see it.

21:34I gotta see what he's gonna do with this. A movie about J. Robert Oppenheimer could have been really boring. And in fact, like if you've ever seen, what's the Paul Newman movie? Whew. Fat Man and Little Boy. Yes. If you've ever seen Fat Man and Little Boy, the 1989 dramatization of the creation of the atomic bomb, which starred Paul Newman as Groves, the Matt Damon character in Oppenheimer, and Dwight Schultz as J. Robert Oppenheimer, or you'd know like it takes something special to make this truly exciting and to make it truly like an event film and I think he does that and I was trying to think in my head who are the true auteurs that can do spectacle?

22:18Like, you know, it's really, it's Francis Ford Coppola who is like writer first, then filmmaker. Right. The same way that Nolan is where Nolan writes almost everything he does. Sometimes he bases it on material just like Coppola based The Godfather on a best-selling novel. But creating this world kind of by yourself as the author and doing it at that scale, there's not a huge tradition of it in Hollywood. Cameron writes. Yeah, but he writes in a different way. And with different visual goals as well as thematic undertakings. Yeah, I think the level of prestige, it's only Titanic where he has attempted something that has that kind of import.

23:02He's mostly an entertainer. And he's sure about the world. He is. Yeah, Cameron knows what he thinks is right and wrong. Yeah, and he thinks, and he knows where he believes he stands in it. Our timing is really interesting because he's just lodged some complaints against Oppenheimer because he is intending to make a nuclear film, you know, an atomic movie about the power of the bomb. And he was frustrated by what was not in Oppenheimer, which is a complaint that we heard that I never understood and I don't agree with where Cameron comes from on this either. Well, I think that Nolan's response was always that this was like a quote-unquote subjective movie.

23:42But I think the complaint was this is in many ways a movie about the decision that was made and how it changed our world and the people who were affected by it are not represented in any way in the movie. And, you know, like I get it. I think it would have been disastrous if Nolan had tried to bring like that death and destruction into it wouldn't fit with the rest of this movie and it would feel gratuitous. And I think it was smart for him not to do it. But I understand that, you know, this is one side of the story. Very much so. And it's not attempting to be representative of anything other than the perspective specifically of Oppenheimer, but I think mostly of the people who are kind of sympathetic to his experience as the leading scientist in America at a certain time in history.

24:30But subject matter is really perfect for what he's interested in. He is interested in formulas and theories and this idea of what if, what would happen if something like this happened. But this is a real historical event that he can use to kind of analyze that context. Conspiracy and paranoia and the idea of loyalty all being kind of frictive points. Like it's a big part of Inception. It's a big part of the Dark Knight films. Like this idea that you are bound to these oaths that you've taken. But taking those oaths then makes you every day think that like something is wrong and amiss. There's a great moment in this movie that is basically where the movie turns.

25:08It might be where you kind of lose a little bit of your tether to it. But the moment itself is so special. which is immediately after the Trinity test. There's a moment when Oppenheimer, the following day it seems, or after the order has been made, walks outside of Los Alamos, watches the bomb leave in trucks. Yeah, no, that's a great part. And that moment when he realizes this is essentially not only not under my control, but it was never under my control. I am just a tool toward this. And Cillian Murphy's performance with no words. Right. And also, I mean, like the shot itself is so beautiful with the mountains in the background and like there, you know, away it goes.

25:52It is like a painting. It's just it's an amazing act of thematic storytelling. Yeah. And conveys a ton. And it is absent, I think, a lot of the political machinations that kind of dominate the final third of the movie. it is doesn't have anything to do with this idea that Oppenheimer was a controversial figure in any way it's like it's pure human drama it's a person who thought he was one thing and then realized he was something else and I saw that as like a really incredibly mature moment for Nolan who's been kind of like working towards something and it really really stuck out to me and then there's all the other stuff too that he likes like conquering the metaphysical world having an idea of what you could do and then using science to make it real, which is like what Interstellar wants to do, but can't do.

26:42Like it can't ultimately get you to the explanation point. That's the point, yeah. You know? I know. So you don't have to understand, you just have to feel. Do you think love conquers all?