The 25 for ’25 Selection Show Special

28:44And he's like, of course, it's your day.

28:50That is good. That's pretty similar to your life. It really is. That is kind of how it is for you. We were just talking about marital negotiations and travel just yesterday. You know, it's all a negotiation. Okay. Let's talk about David Fincher. Here's a conundrum. The Social Network may be the best movie of the 2010s. Zodiac might be the best David Fincher movie, but it isn't even the best movie of 2010. 7. This is the pickle of trying to do this. I have said many times Zodiac's my favorite Fincher, but the social network is very representative of a lot about the show, of the world that we live in right now, of a sort of writing and directing style that we really like.

29:31It's a movie that, in theory, will be right near the absolute tippy top of the list, and many listeners will know, and we don't care. I just want to say it again. Zodiac is this like the hardest cut on the whole list because of the rule that I created and imposing on myself for no good reason other than to avoid putting two Fincher movies or five Fincher movies on the list? You say what? Did you get that out of your system? I did. I got it all out. You got it out? Yes. Can you tell I've been grinding on it? That was just like we needed to put you back in the void for that. I'm glad we gave you your piece.

30:08The answer is The Social Network. Okay. But you won't even acknowledge? No, I love Zodiac. But listen, when we did the two-part David Fincher rankings, I was outvoted because it was you and Chris over me. And somehow we put Zodiac at number one and the social network number two. Listen, it's like essential to our project is we just really, really, really love that movie. Yeah, agreed, agreed. And it is like our generation Citizen Kane. And I do think it's one of those things where we think it's so obvious that we're then like trying to get frisky and out overthink it. And you're like, okay, but really, actually, it's Zodiac.

30:47And sure, you love Zodiac. But I think the answer is the social network. I think the social network is increasingly a little bit lost on younger listeners of the show. Okay. Because it was, whether or not, and that doesn't matter for our purposes. Pull up a chair, young friends. Whether or not some of these movies are, you had to be there movies is kind of interesting to me as a result of this process. But we can keep going through it. Let's just say we'll hold space for social network. And then Martin Scorsese. And you wrote down The Wolf of Wall Street. I did. Which I believe is correct. Yeah.

31:21I have immaculate taste. No. But you have good taste. Very interesting taste for sure. I think, and you know how to make a list with me, which I appreciate. Yeah. Scorsese, how many people would really say this is his best movie of the century? Do you think that would be the most common response? Bobby's nodding. You think so, Bob? I think among people who are paying attention, do I think it's his most widely seen? No, it's The Departed. That's great. The Departed is wonderful. The Departed would not be my pick. Yeah. I know you ride for Silence. Silence will have its time on this show. That's how I feel about Silence.

32:00It will have its time on this show. Also, I learned something that I did not know, which is that silence had been previously adapted by a Japanese filmmaker. I can't recall the filmmaker's name, but I was just reading about this the other day. And there's another version of that story. Now I have to go seek that out and go watch it. Sorry to interrupt you. It's okay. I admire silence. Okay. And it is like important for men to quite literally not say very much and grapple with their faith and ambition and all of that stuff every once in a while. So I give you that space every day. I give Martin Scorsese that space.

32:34Adam Driver and Andrew Garfield together as tortured priests. I was about to say, I do think that the experience of making silence set forward a chain reaction that gave us the Andrew Garfield we have today. And again, it's March 2025, so I don't know what he's been up to the last nine months. I believe in him and that he can continue just the absolutely unrivaled streak that he's on but I also take no responsibility for any poor choices same but so I do thank Silence for that I've also written down The Irishman The Irishman Silence The Departed I think are the ones that came to mind and you didn't write Killers of the Flower Moondown I think it's ultimately a superior movie to The Departed but a less important movie than The Departed in Scorsese's story.

33:26The Departed, though, is just rip-roaring, entertaining. And so if you're looking for a fusion of the big idea, the craft, and the entertainment, The Wolf of Wall Street is the answer. It is the one that does all of those things. It's representative of this big idea of American greed and a thrilling Leonardo DiCaprio performance at the center of it. Also an essential Leo. One of his best. Yes. And just a really, really, just a fun movie. So, got no quibbles, just worth discussing. because it's Scorsese. Next was Parasite on your list. And we just had this conversation actually about Mickey 17 and we did land on Parasite as our number one Bong Joon-ho movie.

34:03So, you know, Memories of Murder popped to mind. That did come in at number two on our list. Great film. We do like to, you know, it's tough. The cool move would be Memories of Murder. Well, it's tough when the good movie actually does win Best Picture, you know? And we never know what to do about it. This is a relatively new phenomenon. Exactly. And so we don't really know what to do with it. And so I think like our instinct is to overthink it because it was celebrated. Yeah. I have been, I thought about this with the moonlight situation too. And I've just been struggling with this as a person in middle age, which is that you just have this dawning realization that you are the mainstream target for consensus ideas.

34:47And that you are the most powerful consumer. And I'm in a Norwean Best Picture. That was your favorite movie of the year. That is true. How many times can you say that that was the case? You can also say it about Parasite. So you're in the target as well. And we can pat ourselves on the back and be like, oh, well, the Academy is so international and just evolved so dramatically. They made so many changes. But it's like, also, you're at that age where you're not going against the grain as much anymore. And you don't want to go against the grain as much anymore. You want your taste to be like at the absolute pinnacle of their industries or whatever, because that communicates some kind of like generational power, power shift.

35:25I'm really, I'm so obsessed with this idea. And so this exercise I think is kind of a, it's sort of like a resonance of that idea. The Parasite thing though is just like, I rewatched some of it to prepare for that Bong episode. And I was like, this is it. You know, this is like thriller, satire at its absolute best. So I won't argue any further on that one. Something's got to give. Is this the only choice? Of course there would be a Nancy Meyers movie. be on the list. Is this the only choice? I, for a second, yes, it is the only choice. Because I didn't write down the intern or it's complicated.

36:00I think it's complicated. It's very flawed. I think the intern is very good. I do like the intern. I like them both. I thought about it's complicated, but I was immediately like, no, no, no. It is flawed. It has great charm and it has Meryl Streep, but the answer to me between those two which are women of a certain age wearing turtlenecks and rediscovering romance late in life. Yeah, yeah. They're twinned. Yes. And Something's Gotta Give is like clearly superior. And then The Intern is kind of her answer to BB Boom and pretty fascinating. and I do like Anne Hathaway but it does also just have like Rene Russo as the masseuse for a while you know falling in love with Robert De Niro completely forgot about that which is like which is lovely but you know like it's a little baggier side story exactly and something's got to give is like just the height of Nancy Meyers powers and also I think I mean the most influential and kind of the culturally has kind of percolated you know through society the most.

37:14I'm totally fine with that. I love Some Things I Gotta Give. I think that's probably my favorite Nancy Meyers movie. I mean, it's the best one. So the next pick you made is The Handmaiden, which I think, I can't figure out if The Handmaiden is the cool person pick or not the cool person pick or the consensus obvious pick. I think this is the Park Chan-wook movie. My mind immediately went to Old Boy because Old Boy was this kind of like banging introduction for many American moviegoers into the Park Chan-wook experience. The Handmaiden was made at this very early stage of streamers funding movies.

37:53And so Amazon brought it to America. It's a beautiful, very sexy, dark thriller. It's a movie that I love, so I'm not quibbling with it. I'm trying to figure out what would be the more interesting choice. Would it be this movie, which is more recent? or would it be Old Boy, which was extremely influential? Right. And to your point about the Dark Knight and action movies, you know, this is an action thriller, but it's got, you could make the case the most memorable fight scene in the movies in the 2000s, in the hallway fight. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just want to float that. It was, I wrote down The Handmaiden because of all the sex, obviously.

38:37And there are not a lot of, although The Wolf of Wall Street has plenty of that stuff too but like in a in a different way so I know easily Park's sexiest movie yeah I know why I'm voting for The Handmaiden but but that doesn't have to be the reason you know not like your traditional yeah sure but you know you know Adrian Lyne you know romantic thriller it's that's true romantic thriller is like erotic I don't really think there's a lot of romance in Adrian Lyne movies thank you yes you know you're right erotic thriller okay I am generally good with The Handmaiden I'm open to Oldboy I haven't seen The Handmaiden, I think, since it came out.

39:11That's something I got to do, is revisit that. If we're going to end up making that choice. And then maybe that's one where I blink. See, that's something that could change as we go through the list. We could be going through the list, and there could be a director who has a 1B, and I blink at the last minute, and I'm like, it's really got to be this. That's in play. It's going to be a case-by-case basis. I'm okay with that being an option, broadly, and then whether I accept the change will depend on the movie itself. We are aligned on Before Sunset. Yeah. I just think that's one of our movies.

39:43You were saying to me that at some point that if you could have nudged me towards boyhood on this list, that that might be where you would go on your own. I think boyhood exists in the same realm as the way you were describing Moonlight. And I know that you're not a huge boyhood fan, but I think it is now because it was locked in an Oscar race and there was so much press around how it was made that what the movie actually is, is like a little misunderstood or misremembered. Again, when I talk about this movie, I'm always like, God, this movie feels like really close to my life. And the same thing with The Squid and the Whale, where like any movie that I'm kind of can like scrape the interior of my mind, I tend to have a big emotional relationship to.

40:29But I do recognize that like it does not work for everyone, that actually the conceit itself or like the actor who is the, you know, Eller Coltrane. Like some people just don't think he's like that strong as a performer. And so that holds the movie back in some ways. I acknowledge all those criticisms. I think the Wolf of Wall Street case is Everybody Wants Some because that's the most fun movie. I do love Everybody Wants Some. And the older my sons grow, the more I'm just like, oh, wow, I have. You're gonna be in one of those houses. I had the supporting cast of Everybody Wants Some just growing up.

41:03Very good point. Which is like thrilling to me. You know how to hang with the boys. Well, no, I just, I'm like, there is something like very, you know, good natured and goofy about that movie for all of their, you know, doltiness. Yeah, it's poignant, but not saccharine and fun and funny, but not stupid. Yes. it feels a bit more like a guy telling you an anecdote than it does a movie it's a little bit like let me tell you about this great weekend I had 10 years ago but the vibes are so good and the performances are so good obviously that's when we got on the Glenn Powell train but before sunset we just did a rewatchables about it like a month ago it's just a tremendously important and one of the most romantic movies ever and also is a sequel It is a sequel.

41:57So we, and we don't. Is it the only sequel? Let's see. I guess The Dark Knight is technically a sequel. No, we have some other. We do. Yeah. I see some. Yeah. But, you know. A few sequels, which is actually quite a few, which is interesting to talk through. Okay, let's keep moving. Cuaron. Now you wrote Children of Men. Did you write that with me in mind? No, I think it just, I was literally thinking through, okay, I was thinking a little bit genre and a little bit like ticking off through directors and I was like Cuaron and that is what spoke to me I think it's a movie that we've never like we've never done an episode about but that is referenced all the time on this show yes so that was another reason yeah I think there there is a contingent of people who have said that it is the perfect movie of the century you know that it is like that collision of great script with a great idea with the right actors and this you know relatively innovative style very spielbergian in some ways um i don't think it would be my choice say more i think he to mama tambien probably says more about what's great about him as a filmmaker, which is that when he is like very connected to character, his movies work better for me.

43:25And the spectacle movies are very cool and I appreciate them. I like Gravity quite a bit. Right. But that's a very kind of a weak script. You know, it's a very stand in script. And Children of Men feels very schematic relative to a lot of post-apocalyptic movies. It feels like it's riffing, whereas Itoumouma Atambien just feels like it is happening in front of you. I think he has the ability to do that. I think he's weirdly done a good job of that in a Harry Potter movie, which is also eligible. Prisoner of Azkaban. But yeah, we didn't put that down. We didn't. You wouldn't put Prisoner of Azkaban on the list.

43:59Many people would consider it. Once again, I encourage them all to open Letterboxd accounts or Google Docs accounts and make their own lists. Would you put Roma on the list? You know, I have not revisited Roma since 2018. And I, that was an unforgettable viewing experience for me. And I did get to see it, unlike most people, in like a beautiful Netflix theater, you know, with the sound and everything. And I was just completely shredded by it. I wonder how it would play now at home. Then does that matter? I don't know. I own it on Blu-ray if you'd like to borrow it. Oh, okay. It's in the Criterion Collection.

44:44Oh, it is. Good for them. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Netflix, to their credit, licenses their movies to the Criterion Collection. We've recently learned that Apple will not be doing that. And it does not seem as though Amazon has much interest in doing it anymore either. For example, Killers of the Flower Moon will not be getting a 4K release anytime soon in America. Which is just... But it will internationally? It's already been released in Italy. Do you own that? In 4K. I don't. I was waiting because I assumed that Criterion would swoop in. Do you want me to buy it for you when I'm in Italy? I do. I think it's already out of print, but I would take it.

45:14A lot of Americans were like, they'll never put this out. And so they bought it right away. And I held out. You know who owns it? Tracy Letts. Okay. I, my heart says, And that also raises the sex quotient. Sure. And we do like that. We do. I'm open to that. Okay. We'll come back to it. One car Y. Speaking of romance. You put in the mood for love. Yeah. I know, I know, I know. I'm not going to fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The sequel. All right. Okay. 2046 is eligible. I've heard. I've read your tweets. It's interesting. I've read your tweets. I think In the Mood for Love is a no-brainer. I think that will probably be in the...

45:51Certainly in the top 10. You wrote The Act of Killing. I think at this point... I've got a bad taste in my mouth having just seen Joshua Oppenheim's The End, which I didn't like very much. Once again, let's set the scene. This is a list that I made on date night in Palm Springs. Drunk full of steak. With a cocktail. did I have a steak? I probably did. What do you get at Mr. Lion if you don't get a steak? No, I was just trying to think of like where I was in like my life journey at this and I, yeah. Okay. I had a steak. I just thought to myself documentary and then that was, I was like, that's the type of film.

46:30And then that's the first one I wrote down. I think that's the one that you find on a lot of these lists. Yeah. Okay. Well, you've written some others. Some of them I like and some of them respectfully are television shows. Right. So I wrote down O.J. Made in America and The Last Dance. Yeah. Incredible. Incredible. And one of them did win an Oscar? O.J. Made in America won the best documentary. So I guess that that it means that it's eligible. But. Maybe because I am thanked in the credits of O.J. Made in America we should not include it. I just like to send my love to Ezra Edelman whose Prince movie is not allowed to be released.

47:06Which sucks. Which is terrible. Though maybe I still haven't seen it and I would like to. It's March right now. They're not going to work it out. I think it's officially... I think I was just like doing interviews about how it's never coming out. I mean, that's true, but that's terrible. You never know. You never know. I love Sarah Polly's stories we tell. I love Amy. Asif Kapadia's Amy Winehouse documentary. I put all the beauty in the bloodshed. Incredible movie. Which was one of my... I think it was in my top five of the year it came out. And I put Errol Morris This is the fog of war. This is a really good one.

47:43Now, where we're at on the cut down list, which we're not even talking about yet, I didn't have room for a doc. Yeah. Which is testimony to this. The fog of war, though, you know. It's essential. Yeah. That's a big one. Yeah. That's a big one. That's Robert McNamara being confronted by Errol Morris and kind of like illuminating the U.S. Department of Defense's experiences and strategy over a 40-year period. Right. Particularly the Vietnam War. I just want to put a little red circle next to that one. A little red dot. We can circle several of them. Okay. Except for The Last Dance, which I loved so much.

48:22And it really got us through the pandemic. It's great. It's terrific. It's a TV show. It's a TV show. It's a TV show. That's cool. It's a TV miniseries. The iPad. Yeah. When it's about to, it's really good. I mean, he innovated a whole new way of making, I mean, so many documentaries use the iPad technique. I'm just like, hey, look at this thing that happened to you 12 years ago. Comedy. You wrote Superbad. I did. I was fully on board with this. I wrote Anchorman, The Legend of Ron Burgundy underneath it as the goofy, Apatovian era of comedy. Right. Right. I've pivoted to Anchorman. Yeah, that's fine with me.

49:01Okay, so we don't even need to debate that. I think that I put Superbad down because I have a clear memory of seeing Superbad in theaters, packed house, everyone screaming and crying and laughing. And also, I was with my then boyfriend who was just very high. And I was just like trying to navigate him through like a loud experience. so you know it was like my own super bad within a super bad but Anchorman is extremely funny I would also accept Step Brothers but I would as well yeah but Step Brothers feels like the cool pick and Anchorman feels like the true pick hmm I don't honestly the thing I like about Anchorman is that there's like a real female character in that movie there's like not a lot of good female characters in a lot of these movies that's very true I guess Emma Stone kind of sort of but she's basically a sketch in Super Bad she's great she's wonderful Christine Applegate actually has a lot to do and is like essential to Anchorman.

50:00Okay. Whiplash? Now you wrote Whiplash. Yeah, because this is a group project. Okay. You like Whiplash? Yeah, sure does. You know? I don't know. Listen. No, I do really like it. And it is also, I find it. No, no. It's an incredible movie. What it's about is a little annoying to me in just like a all you meant need to calm down sort of way, you know. But no, it's a great film. Got it. La La Land? I, as you know, love La La Land. It's good. Babylon? I love you guys and it is really good, but no. Bob, Babylon? I don't think Babylon really falls into this list. You want to do First Man? I mean first man would be the real cool guy that would be the like you know and that is also about like you like men need to get your shit together what do you mean what are you talking about sometimes you have to go to space you're just a bunch of boys it's like at least a literal quote in that one I think it's very self aware no it's good and that last scene of them it's just really how far apart we really are I don't think we really want the Damien Chazelle movie where he's like, I got it all figured out, guys.

51:23I'm really content. I think we want the messiness. Completely agree. That's why the Evel Knievel movie is a great idea. Another tortured soul. I don't think Whiplash is going to make the short list, which is really hard for me. If you'd like to know what Whiplash means to me, there is a rewatchable. It's probably my most vulnerable rewatchable. Right, because you did it with Bill. So it is like speaking of psychological experiments and speaking of it's like the content is good but I have some notes about the emotions between the two it's fine you've worked it out I'm grateful I'm grateful to both of you make your life your art and your art your life sometimes yeah you're wonderful men Mad Max Fury Road yeah I don't really think there's much of a debate here no okay I'm just sort of like if Steven Soderbergh says it's the the best action movie ever made then we on this podcast uh huh we respect Steven Soderbergh, at least in that we honor his opinions about other movies.

52:23Well, I want to come back to it in a minute. So, Tar comes next. Yeah. We're one day away from recording a Cate Blanchett Hall of Fame episode. I haven't revisited Tar yet. I might watch it tonight.

52:35But it feels like it's going to be really high on our list. Oh, yeah. Well, we're doing a Hall of Fame, right? No, I mean on this list. Like on 25 for 25. well we both wanted to be really high on this list but on the list that you have put together it's not on it I know so I don't know I'm I'm so there are two movies from 2022 that are definitely the most exhilarating movie going experiences I've had in the last five years and neither is currently on the short list we don't have anything after 2019 on the list right now that's correct so let's keep going okay Mission Impossible Fallout, another action movie, another sequel.

53:21Yes. Are we being redundant with Mad Max Fury Road and The Dark Knight by including Mission Impossible Fallout and perhaps even Top Gun Maverick, which you have on the list next? This is a lot of saminess. They're not the same movies, but the energy and the experiences are kind of the same. Well, I hear you. but then I think we have to jettison Mad Max Ferry Road. I'm, well, we can't not have, okay. We, I mean, we can pick between the Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise. I think we will have to. I know that we have to do that, but I think if you just, if you want to like get rid of action movies, I don't want to get rid of action movies.

54:09I think it, it, it re, it re raises the question of the Nolan choice. Well, I'm not putting Oppenheimer on this. Why? What's wrong with Oppenheimer? The third hour is what's wrong with Oppenheimer. Robert Downey Jr. is what's wrong with Oppenheimer. Many people disagree. Okay. Myself included. Yeah, and the Academy. So how do you feel? How do you feel about a Nora's win? You know, like sometimes the best movie wins. What can I say? I don't, you know, this is just what's happening. You're 40. Deal with it. Top Gun Maverick, I don't think he's going to make the cut. I just. I'm not saying it's not important to you and your family.

54:47And also to this show and to cinema. It is. In 2022. It's like, do you remember like we were down bad? We were down so bad as a global community. And then Tom Cruise was like frankly stubborn. And I disagreed with him about how long he made us wait to see that film. and then we went to see it and I it was my first movie back in theaters after having Max it was like the you know the world opened up to me and to everyone else and that shit is beautiful and do I tell my son the story of Top Gun every single night before he goes to bed at his request yes I do and when he says that he means Top Gun Maverick the first line is there once was a pilot named Maverick Sometimes I substitute in other people and he's like, no, Maverick.

55:47So, yes, it is of outside importance to me. But in terms of blockbusters, in terms of people going to the movies, like deeply, deeply important. And it works like it just it is like a blockbuster machine. But it works. And a three year old can understand what's going on. and, you know, his grandfather can sit with him and also be like, ooh, you know, when Tom Cruise tells the air boss, who is Jon Hamm off. So it's a beautiful movie. Let me pitch a theory at you. Yeah. It's The Force Awakens for people who are addicted to movie stars. Okay. I mean, you don't need to say it like that. Well, just think about it.

56:31Just think about it. It's giving you a lot of what feels comfortable, what feels good, what feels familiar gussied up a little bit some new technology they flew all of those planes uh-huh you know I'm just putting that up there absolutely definitely it's just a much better movie even if you don't come into it with a context than The Force Awakens like it's just much more entertaining and it's much more well-crafted especially like how the script actually translates to the screen I'm not I'm not saying it it is equal to The Force Awakens in terms of the experience that it's giving you though there's no invention it's a press the pleasure button but do you remember when he throws the rule book in the trash though yeah that is part of the story every night that's part of the story and then he throws the rule book in the trash and everyone goes but it's okay because he knows the rules that is part of the story of Top Gun it ends before they have to do any death defying I'm a huge fan of Top Gun Maverick I'm not saying I'm not I understand that it's probably not going to go on But I think that you are being a little snooty.

57:37I am. And at a time where I don't, I was just very kind about many of your films. And I was like, you were really rude about silence. You said this is what men need to do. I am. And I made space for it. I held space. And then I said, thank you for everything silence did for Andrew Garfield. I have given you a lot of your choices without. These are all your choices. We're going through your, we haven't even gotten to my picks yet. Because sometimes I do the work at a group project. Okay? So it's a discussion. Moving on. Maverick is teetering on the edge, just for the record. Yeah, we all know. The Royal Tenenbaums.

58:19Mm-hmm. Which I think now has to go in because Hackman passed away. Yeah. But I put it on the list before. You did. And it would have been my choice as well. Right, because Rushmore is not eligible. Correct. Rushmore is pre-2000. I was in Rushmore. My favorite was Anderson. It would have been hard for me to convince you to do Rushmore anyway. We probably would have netted it to Tenenbaums regardless. I believe on our Anderson rankings that I did win with Tenenbaums. It was a standoff. You don't win. This is not a competition. This is a collaboration. I persuaded you to put Tenenbaums at number one.

58:56So we're going to go Royal Tenenbaums. Asteroid City, Grand Budapest Hotel. my beloved Boonrise Kingdom you love I love dogs that's your fave no but Fantastic Mr. Fox is also really big in my house another 2007 lots of 2007 movies here no I mean Tenenbaums is is essential okay I'm not going to argue I think it's pretty much the choice Melancholia this gets you kiki yeah again right do we need two kikis Interesting question. Melancholy happens to be a big favorite of mine as well. There can't be very many Lars von Trier movies you have time for. I'm not saying that judgmentally. It's really not your speed.

59:43No. But this one is so my speed that it makes up for the rest. I mean, this is just like an incredible movie about depression, hating other people, and the end of the world. That is kind of what every Lars von Trier movie is about? Yeah, but this one is also stars Kirsten Dunst at like A Perfect Wedding. Now that's... And Alexander Skarsgård. Yeah, that's what drags it over the line for you, I believe. Well, you know. The other eligible Von Trier movies, just for the record, would be Dancer in the Dark, Dogville, Manderley, the crazy sequel to Dogville starring a different actress, Antichrist, which would be just straight up hilarious if we put Antichrist on the list, Nymphomaniac, parts one and two.

1:00:30Right. and The House that Jack Built, which is about a serial killer played by Matt Dillon. Okay. Lars von Trier, extremely controversial figure. Some might say problematic. Mm-hmm. Definitely a genius level film director. I think it's a good choice. I'm surprised by how few European filmmakers are going to end up on this list, which we will get to momentarily. This would be at least a push in that direction, you know, given that. I mean, we said when we announced this project, we will continue to remind everyone that we are two children raised on Hollywood. Yeah, but I think we'll do a pretty good job ultimately with Asian cinema on this list and not so good with European, which is kind of fascinating.

1:01:14Right. Anyway. All right. you mentioned that there's no way that Brokeback Mountain is going to end up on the list. Yeah. But you wrote down Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Right. Speaking of Asian cinema, Asian American cinema. I don't think I could find a spot for Crouching Tiger when I did my cut down list. Yeah. But maybe we should. Is it weird to not have Ang Lee here? Two time Best Director winner? I do think that my thought process was Ang Lee. what angling movies should go on. Sense and Sensibility is not eligible. And then I went straight to Crouching Tiger, which was like a hugely influential, a huge phenomenon.

1:01:58Huge. Really introduced like Asian cinema to like a huge swap. I would say to like art house Oscar crowd. I would say like that kind of elegant wuxia. Yeah. When you're paying style of filmmaking, coming on the heels of The Matrix and it being like kind of the version of it that would play at the Angelica, you know? Yeah. And Ang Lee synthesizing a lot of those 50s, 60s, and 70s movies and then also the like action hero Hong Kong stuff of the 90s. So, I really like it as a pick and I really like this movie. This movie is definitely a big deal to me when I was just a college student getting interested in the Academy Awards.

1:02:42There is also like a timing aspect to it. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I didn't think too hard about this when I was doing the cut down list but let's just keep going because I, Crouching Tiger is a big deal for sure. Ang Lee's got a lot of interesting movies in the last 25 years. One of the problems with him is that he always acts. He always does something different. He's like, I'm going to do The Hulk. Just kidding. I'm doing Taking Woodstock. Just kidding. I'm doing, what's the crazy movie with Jewel and Tobey Maguire the western that he did? You know, like he's always doing something that you don't, anyway.

1:03:10You wrote 25th Hour. I did. this is one of my favorite movies of all time right so I'm obviously not going to argue with you about it but I did write down Inside Man I also love the film Inside Man but we only get one spike and I would say that the bulk of the top 10 spike movies are in the 80s and 90s correct there's not a ton from the last 25 years that you would put up there with the very best yeah 25th Hour is one Inside Man is probably the one right behind it right right What comes after that? I mean, is it Black Klansman? I guess bamboozled would be the other choice. Right. Might be Black Klansman.

1:03:53I prefer bamboozled to Black Klansman, but I think if you were looking at consensus choices, that's one of the few that really broke through in a big way. Maybe that'll change when highest to lowest comes along. We shall see. Well, the other thing that Inside Man gets you is Denzel. That's a good point. Is he not represented here anywhere? Yeah. well yeah no it's tough eek okay we'll get to that Mulholland Drive yeah gotta do it right I wrote Twin Peaks The Return which is the television program yeah that's first of all that's a television program second of all there's a podcast called The Watch where they just they talk about that all the time yeah what about Inland Empire which is deeply unpleasant it's Mulholland Drive okay Mulholland Drive continuing on The Lost City of Z now I like this pick I would really love to find a place for my buddy James Gray As would I.

1:04:42And this is my pick of the James Gray. But I do also, the immigrant is obviously very good and celebrated. And two lovers, as you know, means a lot to me. That's one I like a lot as well for a variety of reasons. You get Joaquin Phoenix. I get Vanessa Shaw. Is Gwyneth on our list right now? I don't think so. I mean, she did obviously stop acting at some point. I'm perfectly content with leaving Gwyneth off the list. But that's a spoiler that there will be no Iron Man movies on our list. The Devil Wears Prada. I mean, you know, I was just writing some mom's, you know, Amanda stuff, some cocktails.

1:05:19I think a hugely influential movie that people don't really. I don't have a lot bad to say about it. I'm not really here to denigrate The Devil Wears Prada. I don't think it's among the 25 best films of the century. But in terms of like blockbuster or just big budget movies that make money starring women that are like well-made, still quoted, kind of in the consciousness, I think like explained fashion to like a lot of people, which whatever you think about it, it's like a multi-trillion dollar business. and it's also you know it's not a rom-com but there are so few movies that get made starring major women actors that are not romantic comedies that it's notable on its own also hugely important to me but all very strong points and valid that I will not take away from you that's fine but it doesn't have to go on it's just good Margaret Margaret yeah not Manchester by the Sea not You Can Count on Me if we're talking about the Kenneth Lonergan oeuvre you can write them both down well all three of them would be in my personal canon yeah but Margaret's also sort of in my personal canon all three of them like absolutely pulverized me and Margaret you know I lent some guy my blu-ray copy and I just never got it back.

1:06:53And it's still missing. Do I know who this guy is? I won't say his name. Okay. And I'm mad about it. Does this guy not know where it is? I don't know. We don't speak anymore. Oh, interesting. Oh, wait. Now I think I know who it is. Lol. That was your choice. I'm disappointed. And it's out of print. It's out of print and it costs like$80 on eBay now. I think... Okay. Well, I know what I can get you for Christmas. I love Margaret. I don't know where it ended up on my list the year that it came out. That was right around when I first started doing those yearly hundred lists, or at least publishing them.

1:07:33I think it's the right choice, but I struggled to find a place for it on the big list. A lot of movies that start with the letter M on these lists. Okay, so we're not doing alphabet theory, at least. That's true. Refresh your good vibes with TikTok. Mit den richtigen Vibes wird Oh man! Zu...

1:08:05Jetzt probieren. Die verschiedenen Tic Tac Sorten. Von minzig frisch bis fruchtig süß. Tic Tac. Refresh your good vibes. The born identity. I say no. That's fine. I think it's good I think it's a little overrated I've Chris for here he would support me I went with a different Doug Liman movie as my potential which would be Edge of Tomorrow it's also good but we already have Mission Impossible Fallout and then I think Top Gun Maverick in second place so that's not gonna make the cut either Hereditary I'd like to say thank you for that you're so welcome oh that was another one I said when I sent you I said that you could you should do more foreign more animated more horror and And more documentary if you wanted.

1:08:52You did it. Well, did you? Well, when we did the cut down list, you did something interesting. Yeah. And I want to go to it and we'll circle back. Okay. But you made a list called, are we being too cute or not cute enough by ignoring? And these were the films that you listed. Hereditary, Margaret, Top Gun Maverick, Uncut Gems, which as of now is not on the top 25. And The Master. Now, this is like one big fat Amanda pick right wedged in between four Sean picks. I know you like Margaret, but you know what I'm saying. Yeah. But I think, so what I mean by this. So I added this category because, as I previously mentioned, you have a category.

1:09:40It's much longer than mine. Titled, These Would Make the List More Well-Rounded and Less Predictable. All right. I'm just going to read a few of them. Okay. Fish Tank. All-timer, incredible movie, also on every list. It is. It is on every list. A lot of these lists are like 100 movies long. Yee, Old Boy, Drive My Car, Burning, A Touch of Sin, Talk to Her. I do have The Lost City of Z there. Lost City of Z, which I put on. Holy Motors, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, which I love, but also is now like The Sight and Sound. You know, these are all movies that are on other lists. and our movies are on other lists too but the movies I identified are like our movies that are also on other lists so that's why I put those yeah I think the challenge of doing a show like this is trying to get out of the way of your persona and try to front your person okay and like my persona is hereditary uncut gems guy yeah and my person is like talk to her and Wendy and Lucy so sure but that's not even the Kelly Reichert that I would pick so that's fine but I'm just sharing from my perspective I've like talked myself into a bit that isn't maybe actually how I feel sometimes I know and now Marvel is like making commercials for you I know I know well they always were so I know and I'm not trying to get too meta in this conversation but it is striking me that like films that like hit me hard like when I say like Squid and the Whale is like a big deal movie to me and that's not the cool choice yeah of I don't know Lady Bird or Marriage Story um Squid and the Whale is not really on a lot of best hundred movies lists you know and so like I want to I mean Marriage Story isn't really either I guess it's not I feel like that movie is a little like got Netflixed a little bit yeah um anyway I finished going through all of the films that you recommended Uncut Gems and I think Good Time is worth discussing too the um the previous Safdie Brothers movie I made a whole list of additions speaking to those prompts that you noted yeah off of your first shot I mentioned Uncle Boon Me and then talked to her in Volver for El Medovar I wrote Midnight in Paris I do really like it which when it came out yeah no I know I mean huge hit listen it's a very good Woody Allen movie it is incredibly charming I saw it at BAM in Brooklyn and was just full of people just like chuckling along being like I get that Hemingway joke you know and I was like I was laughing too because I got the Hemingway joke but then I felt bad about myself so that's why it's not on my list it's very entertaining it's also just riddled with controversy and doing an episode about it would be kind of a pain in the neck to be honest I wrote down three Michael Hanukkah movies I think you could write down six Piano Teacher Cachet and Amor sprung to mind immediately I think The White Ribbon's on the table there Funny Games on the table there there's like a bunch of movies again he's a me director and is like a very unsparing withering as you know I you do see that in the world yeah I see that in the world I have I've seen you've seen that more we talked about it more on the show yeah more I famously saw very early on dating Zach also at BAM and just sat there across the you saw White Ribbon I think right saw White Ribbon funny games I mean like totally fucked up but you know that was like a very pop Monica movie exactly so and I do tend to respond to the pop stuff more yeah the tree of life yeah it's weird the tree of life is not on there.

1:13:15So, we'll come back to the other two lists that I added that are challenging. But the Tree of Life, it's going to be hard for me to not put the Tree of Life on this. I mean, I think that is correct. Yeah. The New World has its defenders as well. I'm not as fond of the New World, but the Malekids love that one. I wrote two Edgar Wright movies, Shaun of the Dead and Scott Pilgrim versus the World. I think these are very big picture movies and they represent something in the culture that is sort of like self-awareness but not at the expense of craft that I really like in modern movies that I think only a few directors know how to do well I'd go right as one of them obviously Spirited Away will almost certainly be the representative for Miyazaki I would Bobby I would welcome any other additional recommendations you might have for Miyazaki I also find that kind of the 90s and 80s stuff is the most resonant for me with him beyond Spirited Away which is not to say that the movies in the last 20 years are bad but you find Totoro and Porco Rosso Porco Rosso sure Howl's Moving Castle like you find that those movies kind of come up more in the all-timers well Howl's Moving Castle is 2004 I believe and that's that's one that's beloved kind of like in my generation Ponyo is beloved too but I don't think it is striving to be as quite yeah feels more slight compared to the others yes definitely I mean my personal favorite is Mononoke but that is 1997 I believe so it's not eligible here.

1:14:43I think that Spirited Away, where he landed, is probably the only one that would fall in consideration here. Spirited Away is on the sight and sound list, right? Where did that land? Can you look that up, Bob? Sure. You mentioned Edward Yang's Yi. Pan's Labyrinth? Sure. Guillermo del Toro's? Yeah. I don't know. That's probably his... I know The Shape of Water won Best Picture, but I feel like it's his most celebrated movie. Sully? There's no Clint Eastwood on this list. Yeah. Would you pick Sully? What would you pick? I do really like Sully. What else is... Sorry. The Mule? Would you go with The Mule?

1:15:24No, I was just remembering... Richard Jewell? So I want to say in 2020, the New York Times critics did a Best Movies of the 21st Century. And I swear to God, A.O. Scott put Million Dollar Baby at number three. And that's just like a real thing that happened. Couldn't be me. and then I was remembering when I remember the draft that we did where Chris was like sitting on Million Dollar Baby and Blockbuster at the last minute or Oscar or something I do remember that yeah I would not pick Million Dollar Baby I wouldn't either at number three or at any other I think it's Sully yeah I like Sully a lot I saw that at the Vista oh how nice okay Spirited Away by the way is 75 on the latest site and sound poll.

1:16:11It's a little lower than I would have guessed. I would have guessed top 50. Probably next time around when there's more young Miyazaki heads are voting. Okay, quickly through the rest of this list. Meek's Cutoff, the other Kelly Wright, one of the other Kelly Wright-Carr movies, Hell or High Water, which I think is still very widely appreciated. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford directed by your fave Andrew Dominick. Steve McQueen's Hunger did not put 12 Years a Slave right you could put it if you wanted to you could put Widows I was gonna say you could put Widows Arrival now you did not have Villeneuve on your first list I didn't I was waiting for you to make your decision I do think that this is when looking around when I realized how many of the Letterboxd kids love Incendies like and that is the number one on Letterboxd for all of them.

1:17:08And I was kind of like, all right, kiddos. I wouldn't say, that wouldn't be for me. My pick would be Sicario, but... You can, well, you could write that down. Okay, I'll just write it down. Sicario's very good. It certainly is. Sicario. The favorite? If you're going to pick a Yorgos Lanthimos movie, he is one of the premier directors of this time, whether you like his movies or not. I like The Lobster. That's what I do too. Yeah. And I think that would be a good pick for this list. Okay. I don't have it on the cut down list, but nevertheless, I like where you're at. Lobster, very funny and insightful movie.

1:17:46A Prophet, which we will not be putting because of Emilia Perez. Portrait of a Lady on Fire, you mentioned. The Raid. We have a lot of action movies on here, but The Raid, much like Oldboy, incredibly influential and a thrilling movie. Just putting it out there. Following up with John Wick. Yeah. He, they killed his dog. Yeah. And you would do John Wick over John Wick 4? Probably. Okay. Bad Boys 2. There's no Michael Bay movie on here. Yeah. I'd also submit Ambulance for consideration. The L and the A are capitalized because it takes place in the city of Los Angeles. Yeah. That's a phenomenal film.

1:18:27Corriere to Shoplifters. Devastating. Li Chondong's Burning Christian Petzold's Phoenix yes Claire Denis' Beau Travai yes now all of those movies I just named you find on a lot of these lists right I like some more than others Burning that was like my number two movie the year that year that's a big one for me yeah you guys loved that I really liked that movie a lot what about The Lord of the Rings The Fellowship of the Ring are we are we really not gonna put that on what the fuck's your problem lady do you remember when that shit came out and we were like we did it we got it peter jackson you beautiful bastard yeah yeah that was awesome i i do remember it's great yeah they're good they're good i have absolutely no memory of what happens in any of them besides like the ring fly you fools and then and like you know and I know my precious and my mother for some reason is not aware of the Lord of the Rings and calls both my children like my precious like that is what her does and I'm just like this is fucked up ma 'am like someone needs Tolkien right from what he knew anyway I mean sure don't just throw your hands up because we're an hour or two here like we're talking about the fellowship of the fucking ring it's not gonna make the longest but that is cool I would put, what was the nine hour Peter Jackson Beatles movie?

1:19:57Get Back. That's a TV show. A Separation, Asgard Farhadi's very, very upsetting movie. WALL-E. We haven't even talked about Pixar yet. Yeah, there's no Pixar on this yet. Ratatouille. Yeah. Don Hertzfeld did Such a Beautiful Day. Sure. Big one for me. Yeah. Now I wrote Call Me By Your Name and you responded with a bigger splash. A bigger splash. I don't know if either are going to make the cut. We'll get there. Hero. and Donnie Darko. That was, now this was just the first round. We're just done with the first round. Now we're going to get, we're going to do 30 minutes of nitty gritty here. Okay.

1:20:29Okay, we're going to do some listing. Now, my next act was during Sundance Weekend. Yes. Two stone cold hours. Yeah. Of chiseling rock. I took all this raw material and I went mining for the truth. Right. Now, do you think I should say where the list stands right now at this juncture and then we can bang through some more of it? Yeah, because we might reorder a few things. Yeah. This is your proposal. So this is... And you were not like offended by this. This, no. I wasn't offended by it. There are some things I want to discuss with you. Okay. But, and maybe some alternate films for the filmmakers.

1:21:15And maybe a couple of things we need to squeeze in. I'm open to all those things. But I didn't hate it. I just want to note that this is the edited list because the first list you sent me was quickly followed by, wait, I just realized that There Will Be Blood is not on this. To which I said, you can take Almost Famous off and put There Will Be Blood on. So that is the cut that I made. I did do that. And I'm sorry to all of you and to Cameron Crowe. I'm going to start this by reading the hard cuts. These movies don't appear on the list right now. For me personally, these were really, really, really hard cuts.

1:21:47AI there's no Steven Spielberg on the list right now I thought that you would pick Minority Report I thought about it but it's just too much cruise too much action too samey even though Minority Report is great Whiplash yeah it's hard it's hard out here it's hard out here I did it Almost Famous yeah I took it you were a brat I don't appreciate that no I'm not a brat it's a good movie I love Cameron Crowe is it my favorite Cameron Crowe movie no it's not I think it's a very important film yeah yeah yeah sure super bad hard cut yeah we love Superbad Moonlight Hard Cut yeah we didn't talk in the first round about Certified Copy but I would say that that is in that to me is we don't talk about that movie that much on the show but that is in a similar realm of this is really important and good yes we would never do Certified Copy on the rewatchables but it would be a great movie to kind of like take a part together on a show agree Tar didn't make the cut Arrival didn't make the cut well I know but does Sicario make the cut?

1:22:48Well, it's not on there right now. Yeah, but... And WALL-E. So maybe if you want to... Okay. We can put Sicario right next to it and say... So WALL-E is your Pixar pick? WALL-E is my Pixar pick but it's not making the cut. Okay. There is no Pixar movie on the list right now. There's no Spielberg on the list. There's no Denis Villeneuve on the list. There's no Luca Guadagnino on the list right now. I know, which is very upsetting to me. There's another movie that I thought of that is resonating in culture right now called Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind because what Severance is doing is so deeply riffing on Eternal Sunshine almost to the point of frustration for me personally, but Brokeback Mountain is not there.

1:23:29Francis Ha is not there. Yeah. There's no Noah Baumbach. There's no Noah Baumbach. Although, obviously, he... I feel like Lady Bird, you know. No, stop it. No, they are independent people making their own art and we can honor both of them. Absolutely, I'm sure. I'm sure he never read the script before she went out and made the movie. Let's just read the list. You want to keep going? I mean, there's no Steven Soderbergh on this list. There's no Steven Soderbergh. Ocean's Eleven is eligible. I know that. It's eligible. I know. And it's not here. The Tree of Life, there's no Terrence Malick. Sorry, I was just thinking about Chris Ryan and UNESCO sites.

1:24:11It's the way you said that was the way that... What did he say? He was talking about Nolan making the Odyssey, and he's just like, they're honoring UNESCO sites. He's honoring them, and it's just really funny. Did you see the photo of Tom Holland on a Viking ship with Nolan that came out today? Wow. Just go to whatever Christopher Nolan updates, x.com. Tom Holland Odyssey. Let's go. First images on the set, I found Chris's blog. And there he goes. Okay, so Chris Nolan. I guess they have to wear life jackets if they're not. I think so. When they're making the film, yeah, they got to be safe. That's funny.

1:24:46They're not performing. Okay. The Love in Basketball is not on the list. Didn't come up on the first batch. That's kind of a tough one. Yeah. Birth. No Jonathan Glazer. No Jonathan Glazer on the list right now. No Zone of Interest. No Sexy Beast. Birth would be our pick. Or would be my pick. I would be comfortable negotiating to birth. Okay. But not giving birth. Yeah, no. I'll never give birth. Except to the birth of ideas. Okay. on this show. Okay. A Star is Born. It never came up. I know my limits. I know I got to pick my battles. Okay. I love that movie. I recently, I don't remember what movie that I was searching for, but there was a Mom Will Love This pack of movies, you know, how sometimes like when you're...

1:25:33On digital. Yeah, on digital and they like, we'll sell you a bundle and it was like... And it was funny games. Valentine's Day. No. And it was like four Gary Marshall films and A Star is Born, the Bradley Cooper version. And I was like, this is rude. I mean, you know, these are your people.

1:25:53No Michael Honeg on the list. Okay. No Bridesmaids on the list. I'm fine with it. I know it was like incredibly important. No Kenneth Lonergan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Women can make money. The Lord of the Rings didn't make it. Okay. I don't feel good about it. All right. Well, we can discuss it. No Werner Herzog. Yeah. Furthermore, no documentaries. Well? Other missing Americans of note. Go ahead. Clint Eastwood. Mm-hmm. M. Night Shyamalan. Mm-hmm. Sam Raimi. Mm-hmm. Todd Haynes. Yeah. No Damien Chazelle or Barry Jenkins. No James Gray. No Safdies. No Ari Aster. No Robert Eggers. No Soderbergh, as you mentioned.

1:26:33No Sarah Polley. She's Canadian. No Denis Villeneuve. He's Canadian. No Michael Bay. No Richard Kelly. No Noah Baumbach. No Catherine Bigelow. We didn't even talk about The Hurt Locker or Zero Dark Thirty for a variety of reasons. Kelly Reichardt, also not represented here. Only one European director. And it's Lars von Trigger. And it's Lars von Trigger. That's really weird. So that means Almodovar not represented. Yorgos Lanthimo's not represented. Paul Verhoeven, Celine Sciamma, Thomas Vinterberg, the Dardennes, Ken Loach, Pavel Pavlikowski, didn't mention Ida, or Cold War. No Mike Lee. Yeah.

1:27:11No Paolo Sorrentino. No Bella Tarr. No Mia Hansen-Love. No Olivier Assayas. No Edgar Wright. No Luca Guadagnino. No Jonathan Glaser. We are also using European in the pre-Brexit sense. Fair point. Not European Union. The continent of Europe. Right? I think so. Okay. Four Asian directors represented on this list. I won't say who they are because we'll go through the list momentarily. Well, everybody else knows. Because they've been listening. I'm giving them the mindset of where we are now in the process. We're having the meaning. Okay, okay. So based on what we just talked about, no Ang Lee, no Zhang Yimou, no Abbas Kirstami, no Lee Chang Dong, no Ho Shao Shen, no Satoshi Khan, no Asghar Farhadi, Jafar Panahi, Wang Bing, John Woo, Raiska Hamaguchi Edward Yang Takeshi Kitano Hong Sang-soo Gia Chanka Like none of these Yeah Listen 25 is not a lot Okay One Mexican director is represented It's Alfonso Cuaron Right We'll get to that in a minute Which one we don't know No Del Toro No Inaritu Lol Yeah I mean One of those was Foreseeable We did not mention Inaritu at all Also two-time Best Director winner like Ang Lee.

1:28:37Carlos Regatas not represented. Alonso Ruiz Palacios not represented. Robert Rodriguez no South American or African directors. I blame you. Okay. So I think Lucretia Martel and Zama is the movie that you most see on the lists. I've just never been a big Lucretia Martel fan. Adam Neyman is a tremendous fan of hers. If you want to read great writing about her work he has done a lot of it. We don't know Fernando Moraes no Pablo Lorraine many other South American filmmakers that we're not talking about on this list one Australian so it's just George Miller no George no Peter Jackson and no Baz Luhrmann you fought tooth and nail for Moulin Rouge and I said no Peter Jackson is from New Zealand just because you're talking Australia the continent yes yes yeah did your child recently learn no shots of the Kiwis I respect the Kiwis I respect New Zealand you're absolutely right about that now on this list there's only one best picture winner okay I think we feel right about that there's only one comic book movie there's only I wrote down one action movie but that's not right that's wrong there's three action movies there's only one horror movie okay I don't know how I feel about that I as I said this is a negotiation three sequels okay and these are the years that are not represented on the list you mentioned that there were no films after 2019 which is true to this moment and then no movies from 2005, 2012, 2014.

1:30:09Weak years or just other years were that much stronger, TBD. Now there's a whole host of major stars that we talk about on this show all the time that are not a part of this list. Among them, Ryan Gosling, Emma Stone, Jennifer Lawrence, Bradley Cooper, Cate Blanchett, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Reese Witherspoon, Nicole Kidman, Denzel Washington. We could go on. There are many, many other stars who are not a part of this list. so anybody who's out there saying you guys are star fuckers you only like Ben Affleck movies and J-Lo documentaries I got news for you guys The Greatest Story Never Told not on the list have you seen that yet?

1:30:47no and I will not there's a whole part where Ben Affleck is like look at all these cameras and explaining cameras to Jennifer Lopez I love Ben I got mad respect for Ben Town not on this list Mallrats Banger Argo not on this list Phantoms he was the bomb in phantoms yo like he's just the man okay uh let's do the list okay this is where it stands right now I'm not saying this is where it's gonna end this is where we what I hammered out and you basically more or less accepted but now the the final steps begin I said put a pin in it and roll the cameras

1:31:26okay so I'm gonna start right now because we have to talk about it and we have to explain it. Okay. So number 25, you have Michael Clayton. I wanted a cool episode to start. That's what I was going to explain. I know that. I understand. Jesus Christ. Okay. We're having the meeting. But I know the rules. We're opening up the meeting to everyone else. Yeah. When you make a list, you got to grab people in with something up top that they A, want to listen to and are like interested in. Okay. And B, like also make them a little mad. So many people, myself included might recoil at the idea that Michael Clayton is as low as it is.

1:32:03But I think it's a great kickoff. And, you know, the right scale and also George Clooney. We don't have to explain every pick, but I do think these key moments are the right ones to explain. Okay. You want to keep going? Sure. So at 24, we have The Handmaiden, which it seems like maybe you want to change it to Oldboy. You only have a couple weeks. I might want to change it. And if you change it, does it change the ranking? I really like The Handmaiden 2. No, it doesn't. I think this is like a good spot for Park Chan-wook. I think it's a good spot for either of these movies. So it's not that big of a deal.

1:32:38I don't know, man. I'm like kind of eager to return to The Handmaiden because I haven't seen it in a while. Whereas Oldboy I have seen recently. Have you watched the Park Chan-wook Little Dumber Girl yet? No. I watched the first 23 minutes twice. The first time I tried to watch it in the second time. I just like stop making TV shows it's it's the only exception to the TV show thing it's absolutely just make movies um let's let's leave the handmaiden there for now okay after that is Mission Impossible Fallout which I feel pretty good about he jumps out of a plane he's thrown through a bathroom mirror yeah yeah yeah very violently I just watched this recently Henry Cavill yeah pump you know powers up his arms the whole motorcycle thing.

1:33:26Yeah. The helicopter fight. Pretty good. Michelle Monaghan. Yeah. Very beautiful. She's doing stuff. Vanessa Kirby. Ving Rhames. Yeah. Simon Feig. If we put this movie on the list and we keep it where it is, then that's an acknowledgement of Shaun of the Dead. Okay. Which is not here. That's fine. Do you feel like... This is also an acknowledgement of Tom Cruise of franchises in a lot of ways with one other exception and I think that is like that is our shared favorite franchise going yes losers like the Fast and the Furious winners like Mission Impossible right we didn't even discuss Fast Five nor should we yeah okay alright alright I just you know just putting it out there I've got something's got to give it 22 now is that movie better than Fallout

1:34:24I think we're sort of like we're doing tears right no we're not doing tears we're ranking them okay um I would say it's writing is actually better than than fallout and I made a great choice and Jack Nicholson has to be able to walk up those stairs before he can have sex you know and he does it so it has dramatic action sequences it does have a sex scene between Jack Nicholson and Diane Keaton I gotta say sex in your 70s that sounds challenging like as my body is just totally breaking down in 43. It's also got this scene where he's like, I really am. I really, I hope it happens for you. Me too.

1:35:00And they have put a lot of medical research dollars behind making sure that that's possible for you. I'm actually not worried about that. At the expense of my health generally. What do you mean? So just like me being able to even see a gynecologist, you know, and is under debate, but there are all sorts of medicines to make sure you can have... I'm not worried about ED. Okay. I'm worried about not having functioning limbs. I mean, I might be worried about it then, but... Right. Well, that, I mean, that's... He has to be able to make it up the stairs because that's when his heart is ready after his heart attack to have sex again.

1:35:36So, but listen, he's got Keanu Reeves, who's a doctor in the Hamptons, who believes in him. So maybe we can achieve that for you too. Okay, great. Also, this scene when he's running around in the hospital gown with his ass totally out every single time I've worn a hospital gown since then. It's like an enduring image. And then it's also like useful for small chat with, you know, like small talk with all the nurses. This is your case for something's got to give right now? I'm just like, it's influential, you know? Coastal Grandmas, one of Diane Keaton's best performances. Agreed. They go to Paris.

1:36:08I've been to that restaurant in Paris. They have a big sign. Just have a sip of water, please. I'm out of water. That explains I forgot the jug. You're manic. 2021 The Dark Knight. Yeah. Do you want to change it? Keep going. Keep going. 20 The Royal Tenenbaums. I feel good about this. 19 Spirited Away. I feel good about this. 18 Itumama Tambien. I went with this over Children of Men. I guess we are. Made in his native Mexico. And thus far we have been pretty genre heavy. So. Agreed. Now I feel like I kind of jammed those up at the top. not to get people interested in this, the opposite really, more to just be like, let's, this stuff matters, but like, let's not get too bogged down as we go down the list.

1:36:54Okay. You can make the case that a couple of these should be flipped so that it's not so action-y near the top. Okay. Anchorman is 17. Stepbrothers, super bad. The Other Guys. No, we're not going to do The Other Guys, even though I do like it. I think - Christine Niff.

1:37:21Her name is Christine Niff. Get my wife's name right.

1:37:30That's very good. Even though my instinct was super bad, I do think that your Will Ferrell instinct. I think there's got to be a Will Ferrell movie. I agree with you. I think he is the comic star of this century. Yes. You agree? Yes, I do. So... Seth Brothers is really funny. It is very good. Before Sunset at 16. Okay. I made a very strong, strong, strong move to put Inside Llewyn Davis at 15. I'm open to it. Now, I thought that this would be the best I could get in terms of meeting in the middle with you, that you wouldn't go a serious man with me, but you would go Inside Llewyn Davis. I think that's probably right.

1:38:15Though, I think that's unfair to me. And my generosity of spirit because. Oh, for sure. I would, in this one case, let you do whatever Cohen you wanted. Oh, you would? Because that means something to you. And the way that you're giving me Marie Antoinette. Oh, I see. Because you're just kind of like, you are. That's like your thing. Yeah. And if you want to do a serious man. They don't make movies anymore. It's very disappointing. I mean, you know, they're doing them separately. Yeah, I mean, I agree. You know, Honey Don't will be out by the time we've recorded this, which is the new Ethan Cohen movie starring Margaret Qualley, your fave.

1:38:45Yeah. I like her. And she's very good at dancing, as we learned at the 97th Annual Academy Awards. Completely just instantly dated this conversation. You think that listeners of this podcast won't remember the Bond tribute in December and how long that took? I pray I forget. Well. I think Inside Loon Davis is a good pick. Serious Man is my favorite. No Country for Old Men is great. My absolute favorite Coens are in the 90s and the 80s. let's stick with Incentive Davis Wolf of Wall Street at 14 too low too high I think that it could maybe go at you could flip 14 and 12 and I say that with oh fuck yeah okay yeah and I say that I say that with and honestly honestly maybe you could do maybe you could put 14 at 11 11 at 12 13 stays the same Do you see what I'm doing here?

1:39:46I do. 14 at 11, 11 at 12, and 12 at 14. Yeah. Now we're talking. Okay. Now we should be doing screen capture for this. Yeah. This is the real work. Okay. So now coming in at number 14 is Moneyball. Yeah. Which is one of my favorite films of all time. Do you think that this is the year that we can host a screening of Moneyball? Do you think we did it? It's the end. It's December 2025. 25. We've had many very kind programmers over the years ask us to come and program a movie. We've programmed Gone Girl, Phantom Thread, what else? I'm forgetting other movies. We've done a few others. I did a bunch at the Frida when you were on leave.

1:40:27Right, right, right. And every time we say guys would have a money ball, they're like, meh. Yeah. Okay. I don't really, don't think that's going to sell.

1:40:39I'm Sean Fentasy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Moneyball. And how can you not be romantic about baseball?

1:40:57Moneyball 14, Bennett Miller. No, I thought you were going to ask, do you think Bennett Miller will make another movie this year? Oh, no. Okay, I don't think so either. Number 13 is Get Out. Yeah. Feels like the right spot. It feels good. That's why it stayed where it was and we just moved things around it. Number 12, Melancholia. You've moved from number 11. Yes. Because... Well, first of all, we had Kiki right in a row. Oh, maybe I did that intentionally. Well, I do think that the film The Wolf of Wall Street is better than Melancholia. Should we put a little distance between Melancholia and Marie Antoinette?

1:41:34Should we move Melancholia to number 20 and move the Royal Tenenbaums to 12? Sure. I like that. I think that's probably accurate, right? I like that. Yeah. Okay. Let's do that. I'm still getting over only having one European filmmaker on this list, and I'm drawing attention to it in part because it just seems a little crazy to me, but we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out here. Okay. So the number 12 is the Royal Tenenbaums. Melancholia is at 20. I think that's better. Yeah, I do as well. Number 10, as you just gave away, is Marie Antoinette. Is Marie Antoinette. Is this the right spot? I would also be willing to bump Wolf of Wall Street to 10.

1:42:18No. No? No. You think Marie Antoinette stays at 10? Yes. That's so beautiful. Look, look at you supporting women. I stand with you. Every day of the year. I stand with you a hundred times a year on this fucking podcast. It's more than a hundred. I'm sorry to say. This year it'll be like 130. Fuck. Number nine is Parasite. Now we're in like a really tough spot. I've come covering my face and my mouth. Okay. Because I'm in a little bit of pain. Marantan at 10 is good. That's a cool pick and a smart pick. These next few were very predictable but they're all worthy. I think they're in the right order but I could be wrong.

1:42:57Parasite at nine. Mad Max Fury Road at eight. In the mood for love at seven. Mulholland Drive at 6. These are all canonical works. A good blend of international and American. They are in genre but abstract genre at the same time. Social thriller, action epic, yearning romance, and I guess coming of age for Mulholland Drive. I was just going to say David Lynch movie. Yeah, Nightmare. Which is its own genre. But it's framed as sort of like a gal comes to town. She's trying to make it in the city. I mean, I'm sitting here trying to be interesting and suggest a more interesting order. It's your whole job.

1:43:52Your entire job is to be interesting on the mic. Thank you so much. But in this particular case, I think I mean you could flip Parasite and Mad Max but I I don't think that's good list making I would do it do you want to? yep okay that's a good suggestion okay the tricky thing is like you know a Parasite conversation is a portal to a conversation about South Korean cinema in the 21st century right and the mood for love is a story is a conversation about Hong Kong cinema what what Wong Kar Wai brings to the table Mulholland Drive, we know what that conversation is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this is supportable.

1:44:34I think Mad Max Fury Road. I think with movies. What is your concern? Like, what are you not saying right now? There's no right order. Sure. You know when you're doing this? Yeah. You know when you're at a magazine and you're in the room and you're like, it's not being publicly projected and you can stand behind the editorial voice of the publication? Right, right, right. Right. And so your cleverness is rewarded with provocation. And this act is a little different. Because you think people are going to be yelling at you about. No, it's because I don't want to inspire provocation at the root. Oh, I see.

1:45:14I want to be like, this is how we feel. You don't. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, two things. This can be true. This is how we feel. And I also don't feel that there is a huge difference in greatness between number seven and number eight on this list. Or number eight and number nine. You're probably right. But maybe it's just that I'm slowing down and thinking about it. Yeah. I feel that both are masterworks of cinema. Let's do Marie Antoinette at 10, Mad Max Fury Road at 9, Parasite at 8, In the Mood for Love at 7, Mulholland Drive at 6. Okay. That leaves us with five. Yeah. the order that I've placed these five movies in is as follows Lady Bird at five Inglorious Bastards at four with a big fucking asterisk next to it you have just written Once Upon a Time in Hollywood right next to it it's not even like on a different line or in a comment it's just like right there There Will Be Blood at three 25th Hour at two yeah which was a beautiful act of filmmaking I mean of list making and also of filmmaking thank you that's what I was going for obviously and I like my eyebrows went up and then I was like yeah yeah okay but not too cute no okay because we love that movie the greatest ending of a movie of my fave my fave and then social network at one yeah which is predictable but I think sometimes that's okay I think sometimes you just you need to speak the truth you know okay go back to Tarantino for me there are no bad Tarantino movies in the 21st century there are no mid Tarantino movies in the 21st century everybody has their favorites some people like Django some people prefer the Grindhouse experience some people Digging Glorious Bastards some people like Kill Bill Volume 2 I popped Once Upon a Time in Hollywood into the old 4K player like 3 or 4 weeks ago just to watch the first 10 minutes.

1:47:20Yeah, and then you watched the whole thing? I didn't get through the whole thing, but I was like, fuck. Like I got slipped right into it. Yeah. And the truth is, I'm being really real with you right now. That doesn't happen to me anymore because I made this my job. It's a little bit like when you hear a beat reporter say, I grew up rooting for the New York Giants and I don't root for a team anymore because I know too much or I experienced too much. I've made movies too much of my life. It doesn't mean I don't still love movies. it just means that thing I did all the time from 14 to 30 which is like I just gotta rewatch shit I fucking love I can't really get there with a lot of stuff and this movie was so easy obviously I love Quentin love him personally love him you know his movies like all that stuff that's all understood but and Inglourious Bastards is a diamond right it's like a perfectly constructed masterwork but I think maybe it would be Once Upon a Time in Hollywood for me okay so here's the thing is that I'm sympathetic to what you were saying about it becomes the more that this becomes our job the less we have the experience of just watching it to watch and I think that in a lot of ways like the essential characteristic of all of these movies are they are movies that like get us across the hump from annoying podcaster to person who just loves watching movies and and like they're they are all of that quality for me the thing is is that both inglorious bastards and once upon a time in hollywood are that to me i think they're both great i i don't know whether it's recency anti-bias i'm trying to account for this as well um i don't know whether I don't know I mean Glorious Bastards is just it's my favorite Tarantino it's I mean it's just it's my favorite Tarantino full stop like I just that is my pick that's always my pick over Pulp Fiction yeah okay well listen I wasn't allowed to see Pulp Fiction when it came out in 1994 because I was 10 so you come to it later that sucks that's tough listen I'm I'm every day I'm persevering you know every day you're so brave I'm doing the work.

1:49:44But so, just in Glorious Bastards, I remember seeing it. It's... Okay, we'll keep in Glorious Bastards. I just want it to be on the record that I agonized over this. Well, we have time because that at number three... At number three? On the list, it'll be a December recording. So if... Oh. Yeah. Oh, you're right about that. I'm not trying to like... It's number four, but yeah. Oh, it is? And this is an interesting thing. Oh, number three is there. You know, in my heart and in my mind, these people are engaged in a death struggle for primacy in my heart. By these people, you mean Quentin Tarantino, Paul Thomas Anderson, Spike Lee, and David Fincher?

1:50:33Correct. Okay. I would say, and so is the list too schematic, and answer me honestly, me leaning on... by doing that.

1:50:47No, because... And I'm not saying you don't like any of those filmmakers. I know you love them. But those are kind of the four that I have, like, organized a lot of my movie admiration around and probably, like, switched me on to a ton of stuff over the years. Yeah. I mean, so at five, we have Greta Gerwig. At ten, we have Sofia Coppola. Those are two of my three. We've got Nancy Meyers on the list. We, you know. I think there was... And I'm not trying to reduce myself to like, well, I like the girls, you know, but... No, but I like them too. And Greta and Sophia would have been on my list. I don't know if it would have been these movies specifically, but they both would have been on my list if I just made it by myself.

1:51:29The thing is, is that Fincher, especially Fincher and Tarantino, and well, like Spike Lee, like I love these movies, like these specific movies. And that's why I'm arguing for Inglorious Bastards instead of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I love all Tarantino movies, not in the same way that you do, but where I meet you is at these specific movies. So it's okay with me. I'll roll with you on Inglorious Bastards. There will be Blood at 3, 25th Hour at 2, and the social network at 1. Are you being a cuck by not choosing the master? no I don't think so because I just don't think it's superior okay and I I I don't either but I just no I know you know I'm just I'm asking you you know no I think The Master would be a really cool pick and it would be an acknowledgement of Philip Seymour Hoffman and what he means to the century in movies yeah but I there will be blood I've now done multiple podcasts about the movie and written long pieces and interviewed PTA multiple times and every time it's come up.

1:52:44It's back in the news with The Brutalist, you know? So many of the themes. I mean, so is The Master, you know? True, true. That's fine. We got to talk about the things that aren't on this list that I maybe can't live with. Okay. There's no Soderbergh on this list. Mm-hmm. Now, you could argue that if out of sight we're eligible, or the Limey were eligible, then he would be on the list. This is my thing. But that seems really, really stupid for one of the signature filmmakers of, I mean, there's also no Spielberg on this list. So like, what are we doing? You know, if there's no Spielberg, then there's no.

1:53:22They operate in similar spaces to me where their best stuff just wasn't at this time. Okay. And it doesn't mean that their stuff that they made at this time wasn't great because it was great. There's a case for the Fablemans. Straight up. Sure. There is a case for it. We don't have a lot of old master reflecting back on what he hath wrought. That's not really a conceit of this list. And I'm fine with that. No Bambach. I'm okay with that. As I said, I know Lady Bird, he's not credited in any way, but there's some vibe. Sure. It's a hard miss for us, but I think it's a miss. Francis Howe was in my like I can't believe we're not doing this right wasn't he yes no Tree of Life I don't know if I can rationalize that one to myself okay so what would you take away the Dark Knight whoo you are courting the anger of a lot of people it's fine with me I don't care I just think my sordid history with Nolan Stans makes this a little bit annoying but like I don't know the Tree of Life is better than the Dark Knight what are we doing here yeah no it is Bobby any thoughts I mean my feeling since I saw The Dark Knight on this list is that Oppenheimer should be the entry for Nolan if there is gonna be one because it's I can't get that over the line with our partner in crime here I know I get that so I don't feel as sensitive to the idea of removing The Dark Knight because I think it's like Nolan's third best movie this century are you an interstellar bro no I'm decidedly anti-interstellar and I have caught a lot of shit for it over the years, but I've stuck to that opinion.

1:55:04I even went and saw it in the IMAX re-release and I still feel the same. Okay. I don't hate Interstellar. I just am not as over the moon for it. Pardon the pun as so many other people. Listen, that's fine with me. I'm doing it. Okay. Maybe, I feel like Tree of Life Melancholia in a row is sort of intense. Tough set. Yeah, we want to... Let's do some finessing. Okay. the tree of life can come after anchorman okay and here's what I'm gonna I'm gonna do some magic tree of life what year is that that movie 2000 2010 or 11 no 2010 I think you're right yeah tree of life is 2011 yeah same year as melancholia similar themes in reverse tree of life it's gonna go at 16.

1:56:03Before sunset, it's going to go to 18. You too, Mama Tambien, it's going to go to 23. Oh, okay. Mission Impossible Fallout, it's going to go to 21. Okay. And I think there's balance there. How do you feel about Melancholia Spirited Away and Before Sunset in a row? Do we need some variation? Well, how do you feel about something that's got to give Mission Impossible, Fallout, Melancholia, Spirited Away, Before Sunset, all in a row? Cool movies. I mean, great movies. Those are all cool movies and they're all different. They all elicit a different kind of conversation. I think Melancholia and Spirited Away are a little bit vibes-wise the same.

1:56:45Okay. The Spirited Away pod will be fascinating. Do you want to flip? No, I think that's good. I mean, you could flip Before Sunset and Spirited Away. Is the handmaiden in Itoumama Tambien too sex forward at the bottom?

1:57:02And then something's going to give. That's right. Sex abounds. It's kind of sex month. And then Mission Impossible which has absolutely no sex whatsoever. But Vanessa Kirby and that leg reveal in the garter. Sure. That's great stuff. She got a knife in there? If we're losing the Dark Knight when you were concerned about it being too action heavy are you interested in swapping out old boy for the handmaiden now. Oh. to break it not that I want to break up the sex run necessarily. I would like to leave The Handmaiden I think. I think that's a very good idea and I might change my mind when I rewatch The Handmaiden to prepare for the episode.

1:57:43I'm just here to support you guys. What about now that it's changed and now that we've gotten rid of The Dark Knight. Children of Men? Aha. Aha.

1:57:58Let's do it. Okay. Children of Men. now we don't have to worry about Children of Men being a less good movie than something's gotta give in the immediate is very funny it's just a good bit what's Children of Men? 2008? okay okay yeah yeah this feels for now for now for now you feel okay with it? this feels right there will be the Nolan kids that's not you What do you mean it's on me? I just, I'm happy. I'm fancy free. You're one half of this selection process, which is coming to a conclusion right now. Yeah, but it won't keep me up at night.

1:58:46The thing about The Dark Knight. You won't let us put Oppenheimer on the list. That's really the issue. That's the best movie he's made this century. The thing about The Dark Knight that I was about to say that also applies to Oppenheimer is that it's one of the great movies that you've ever seen and then it keeps going for 90 minutes. You did that bit. We know that bit. Well, it's true of Dark Knight 2. Dark Knight goes on for another 25 minutes. Okay. You know, I've said that many times before, but if they would have just cut when Heath has got his head hanging out the window, I would have been like, holy fuck.

1:59:18This is the best movie of all time.

1:59:23Okay. Let's just hold it there, but we're going to make some more changes. I know it. Okay. Like in the process. I'm going to wake up one morning I'm going to shoot out of bed stock so do we get to do an addendum to this in December? like right now what? that's what I was going to ask you guys as you change things okay here's what we did Michael Clayton's not changing that's not changing I want to do that I love Michael Clayton I'm ready to watch it like tomorrow I'm not changing that we got to talk about scheduling we're recording these like now yeah I think that this is a great first 10 okay let's just stop here Bob thanks for this this inspiration to have this conversation in public I think it was very civil yeah it was nice I think we did a lot of work ahead of time to get us to this place but now maybe I feel even less confident than I did previously okay but I like the changes that we made together I enjoyed this process and I feel confident and I'm not too worried about what anyone else thinks.

2:00:31I'm extremely happy for you. Yeah. But I'm excited to rewatch all these movies, so that's nice. And this list will have already been torn to pieces by the time this airs, so it doesn't even matter what I say now. You will know about it. I'll forward you all the emails. Thanks to Bobby Wagner for his help on this episode. He's our producer. Thanks to Gahau for filling in for Jack Sanders, who when he returns will have to deal with recording 25 of these episodes with us. Thanks to the listeners at home for being so cool about this project. Just being very open-minded and thoughtful and like really engaging and making your own list and sharing them in good faith and good honor.

2:01:13Thanks to you, Amanda. In theory at this time, it's about to be 2026. You think that will be a great year? Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. We need to turn things up. Could use a good year. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, see you next time.