The Black-and-Chrome Action Movie Pack and ‘Onslaught’ With Michael Biehn and Adam Wingard!

24:49And he did this with the guests. I think this is fairly explicitly taking place in the guest-verse or in the idea that this kind of stuff is happening. And I think it's really worth mentioning too that this is essentially a Western that takes place at night. This is about a team of small town trailer park folk teaming together to fend off super soldiers, which is basically the plot of half the Clint Eastwood movies in the 70s just without the Super Soldiers part. And he just really like, you know, if you're going to shoot in New Mexico for tax breaks or whatever, like make it New Mexico, do it.

25:26Like take advantage of the surroundings and he really does. I thought that there was probably like three full different movies in this movie. There's the Arjona part, which is pretty on the nose straightforward, like an Arnold Schwarzenegger plot about like a guy who's just trying to be a good dad but just gets pulled back into the world of violence. Then there is the almost cartoonish, pretty awesome Michael Biehn, Dan Stevens, Rebecca Hall side of things that's all about government experiments on soldiers. And then the Starkey part, which kicks in about midway through the movie and is just an absolute jugular adrenaline shot to the whole thing.

26:11kind of made it for me because I was just like, first, I guess like I have seen it before, but I was like, I have not seen a movie do this in a while where it's just like this guy we gave no notes to. And so he is, should we talk a little bit about what his character is up to? Yeah, sure. He's interrupted, uh, in the middle of a BDSM session.

26:34Sean Fennessey:A house of pleasures. Yeah. I mean, no judgment. No, of course not. But he's like kind of, uh, leashed up while women wearing gimp masks, but nude. And otherwise nude. Yeah, otherwise nude tease him. And we find out quickly that when the government interrupts this vacation session, not unlike the one in Bourne where Carl Urban is just doing mad vodka shots in the middle of the day in Moscow, and they're like, we need you to kill Jason Bourne, you know, again. Drew Starkey gets pulled out of this. He is rolling on pure MDMA, and he is for the rest of the film. And it's just a delightful character trick.

27:12I don't know what to say.

27:14Sean Fennessey:Well, he finds himself in a convenience store at a certain point. And I guess like you do when you're rolling, he just kind of zones out for a minute, but the camera never moves off of him. And you can kind of feel him losing touch with reality while also being plunged into this really violent, hyper-emphasized world of super soldiers. Yes, he is investigating a mass shooting, but stops to inhale a bottle of water because his body is about to go in toxic shock. Don't take this movie too seriously. Yeah. But I thought that was just a really good slider to throw. There's one other thing in it that I really liked that I didn't totally see coming, which is that Wingard is really a genre maven, and he does turn the third act into kind of a slasher.

28:01Sean Fennessey:There are a lot of overt homages to horror movies that I think through the first 80 minutes, I was like, well, this feels like kind of a down-the-middle military movie along the lines of a lot of the films that we'll talk about. But he does get you some Texas Chainsaw and some The Hills Have Eyes and like some components of sort of like in the middle of nowhere, there is a violent force that can take everything from you that I thought was also pretty effective. I had a good time with the movie. Not a masterpiece, but not trying to be. around the edges really well. I thought Wareheim was really funny in this movie he was really funny Reginald Val Johnson it was really cool to see I can't remember the last time I saw him yeah 20 years 30 years is he still working I don't even know but he plays a too old for this shit vet who connects with Aronia's character and it's just what do you think of her?

28:54great question she's she's him right now right like she's getting a lot of like big roles she got by all accounts is Wonder Woman. She's rumored to be

29:03Sean Fennessey:Wonder Woman. Yeah. She is... Amanda and I have talked about it many times. Just like stunningly beautiful and almost to the point of distraction. And you like use that to such great effect in Hitman that like her alluring quality almost like explains the movie. Yeah. Like of course this guy would do all this crazy shit so that he could allow for all this to transpire. we'll see about Wonder Woman I have no idea what to make of what's happening at DC it seems like that could go in any number of directions right now who knows if there will actually be a Wonder Woman movie there's a lot of speculation about what happens if Man of Tomorrow doesn't work but she's going to be in Man of Tomorrow I think she could do a lot of different kinds of things I think the fact that she's very comfortable in a movie like this and pretty credible holding a giant gun is cool yes I mean it was funny to watch I saw a video of her talking about her experience making this movie where it sounds like she was essentially up for six weeks in the middle of the night shooting guns in the freezing cold in New Mexico and then Starkey came in for like three days at the end and got to be on ecstasy and like putting cigarettes out and that was, she was like must be nice basically.

30:15Sean Fennessey:Yeah, he's begging for a spinoff. Yeah. Begging. There's like very obvious, if this is happening in the guest first, there's a way to kind of keep expanding that. I don't know if this is the most commercial movie of all time. it feels like it's being kind of slid into a quiet part of the calendar sure this is to our earlier conversation of vod banger though it is i think you should see it on a big screen because some of the photography is wonderful and like i think it the vistas and the way that they kind of do the western stuff is a really awesome time and you get to hear guns go boom but even wingard himself said in not so many words like i've designed this to be a cult classic you know Like he has, he really has that pitch down.

30:51Sean Fennessey:Now, whether or not that's like a pitch that has value to all people is kind of an interesting thing to think about for me because sometimes the keys are jingled in my face and I'm mad about it. And sometimes they're jingled and I love it. And I'm only human. I can't really, it's my subjective experience. But this was one where I was like, God, I fucking love John Carpenter. Like I just love those movies. And I think they're so smart and so dumb at the same time in a way that I find so appealing. Those are, and we're about to mention a couple of them. those are my comfort movies. Like I, if I'm trying to fall a bit to sleep and I'm not doing the things I should be doing, like reading and, and, you know, calming down, I will put on big trouble in little China or Prince of Darkness.

31:33And I just love the music and I love the photography and I love the way that people talk and act and the shit that happens. I totally agree with you. I don't know what to say. It's just how I was, how they made me.

31:43Sean Fennessey:No, I, it's something we've always bonded over. So it's funny to watch someone, you know, who is effectively our age, who had basically the same experiences growing up watching movies. I mean, he talks about his relationship to aliens and how it kind of like expanded his mind as a young kid in the interview. But I... I mean, this is a fascinating like aspect of what he did here is that we don't have a lot of people who are making programmers, to use a term that is probably way outdated. But the idea of making a innings-eating, modest, but really fun movie that can be watched over and over again over the course of five to ten years, but really is just there to be the third thing on a marquee somewhere.

32:29Well, that's why I think this is kind of an interesting trio of films to discuss, that Mutiny and The Whisperman and this movie all kind of occupy the same...

32:41Sean Fennessey:Action, thriller, whatever. version. Yeah, the same kind of category, the same kind of phylum of genre movie where it's like, there is a star attached to the movie. There is like a veneer of prestige associated with it, but it's also quickly like dispensed with that prestige. Like it's almost like knowingly, like don't take this too seriously at times. All three will be received in different ways and seen and experienced in different ways, which will be the most remembered. I would imagine it's going to be Onslaught, though I don't know if it's going to be like an all-time classic or anything like that.

33:10Sean Fennessey:I don't think it quite gets there. But there is still like a strain of this thing, but our expectations of those movies have been significantly reduced. Yeah. Or I mean, I think that partially because like we talk so much about the box office performance of films now that like in a way that I think is different than maybe perhaps what it was viewed in say the 80s or the 90s when a lot of these movies thrived, that we look at something purely as to whether it connected or not rather than whether or not it's like kind of cool and people might dig it down the road. I was having a very fun exchange with a buddy of mine who was like, I like Dog Stars.

33:49How about that? And I was just like, honestly, you might. You know what I mean? Because I was like, if I was just going to Dog Stars as a dude, I might dig it, you know, a little bit more.

33:59Sean Fennessey:Have you seen the 1991 film Time Bomb? Remind me what this is about. Avi Nesher is the director, science fiction action, starring Michael Bean, Patsy Kensett, and Richard Jordan. It's about a watchmaker who runs into a burning building to save a woman and then eventually becomes ensnared in a secret government conspiracy. Okay. And Adam talked about this and being the star of it and how to Adam, when he saw that movie, he was like, this is it. And it was a reference for him on Onslaught based on the action. Yeah. I've never seen this movie. I've never heard of it. I mean, MGM put it out in 1991.

34:39Sean Fennessey:You'd think I would have some familiarity with it. It cost$7 million to make, and it made$64 ,000 at the box office. It's a true, you know, sent to the dustbins of Blockbuster kind of a movie. And I never pulled it off the shelf, and neither did you. But there are all kinds of... Movie history is littered with titles like this. So it's really fascinating. So we'll talk about the Black and Chrome Action Pack, which will include some extremely well-known classics and some lesser-known films right after this. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for?

35:14Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu, now streaming on Disney+. Rate PG-13.

35:38Sean Fennessey:Okay, so Black and Chrome is inspired, at least in part, to me, by the title of Mad Max Fury Road's Black and White Edition, which was eventually put in theaters and then included on the Blu-ray and 4K discs. and that indicated almost like the color-coded idea of these sorts of movies. Yeah. Which is not to say it's post-apocalyptic or science fiction or military or alien-focused or, you know, conspiracy-focused, but like everything, right? I wrote down some stuff here, kind of stream of consciousness, to give people an idea of what we're talking about. Future set and or future feeling. militaristic fetishistic sci-fi leaning percussive pulsing gritty action has to have some sort of vehicle preferably a motorcycle definitely souped up leather jackets are cool drugs are cool being in the special forces but also having a heart is cool in this in this world so like you just kind of have this i would also say that uh extreme settings are also work really well jungle desert etc.

36:52We like to have a great backdrop for these. Love that. And yeah, definitely sense of humor works in these. How do you think about the heroes? Men with no name. Push to extremes can kind of redeem themselves if they do the right thing with this last mission or this mission in particular. What if they're women? Even better.

37:14Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Why do these movies not really exist anymore? like did something change in the culture? You want to know why? That discontinued this? I think people play video games of them. That's it. Because that's what so many games are now. Yeah. Is this kind of environment and experience. I think this is like a lot of Call of Duty and a lot of Halo and a lot of take your pick. I mean, maybe even going back as far as Metal Gear and Resident Evil. Like I am not an expert, but I know that it's pretty awesome to smoke cigarettes and drink beer and play these games. And that used to be what I would do is just re-watch They Live a hundred times.

37:59Sean Fennessey:That's such an interesting observation. I think you're totally right. There's something about that primal feeling of letting your weapon rip. That I think the movie's allowed for. And now they've been supplanted. But like a nuclear pulse rifle, not anything weird. No, not a handgun. It's like something sort of artificial and imagined, but also seemingly very destructive. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think there's something else about how action was sort of suffused into larger, more comedic versions of, you know, tentpole movies. You know, that comic book movies and Jurassic and Fast.

38:42Sean Fennessey:And fantasy. And fantasy, yeah, sure, fantasy too. But like, they kind of sucked all that energy up. and like yeah Game of Thrones Lord of the Rings these films you know we're reading Harry Potter right now for the first time and even in Harry Potter there's like all these notions of vengeance and fate and like when will there be the epic showdown you know this classical storytelling tropes and these movies do seem to be really out of fashion and I guess you could make the case that maybe like John Wick is working in the tradition to some extent that feels more elevated stylized to me than some of these movies are.

39:18Yeah, you know, it's funny. There's a couple of sequels we have on this list we're about to give folks. And like, weirdly, Ballerina would be like, would be Blood and Chrome to me, but like Wick, maybe not. Yes. I don't know why I say that, but like that, the intent of Ballerina feels very much like let's self-consciously make a John Wick B movie. I totally agree with you.

39:42Sean Fennessey:And if that movie were discovered on cable at 16, Anna DeArmis just fucking killing people for two hours. There's that great scene when she's, I think she's in Scandinavia somewhere. She throws all the grenades. Yes. Like that stuff is so fun. But when you're sitting through a two hour ballerina movie that is like very, very loosely connected to John Wick, you're like, ah, it seems like a wasted time. And also you and I are traditionalists. And I think a lot of these movies start to taper, these movies start to taper off when we become a little bit overly intelligent on CGI. That's true. I think the VFX in Ballerina felt a little unfinished to me.

40:17And some of the scenes that are preposterous are preposterous because nobody would live through this in any way, shape, or form. And so her throwing a bunch of explosives around just doesn't really feel the same way it feels to watch a giant big rig truck full of super soldiers bearing down on a town like it does in Onslaught. what's the single best example of these kinds of movies my take it would be road warrior um because it's like building the fashion and aesthetic of these kinds of movies out of nothing because it is like all scraped together both like the film itself being kind of an instant cult sensation anyway but the football pads with leather jackets with crazy dodge chargers with feral kids with like whoever the fuck that guy was in the desert for Road Warrior.

41:12What was his name? It's like Galacticus Maximus something. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

41:19Sean Fennessey:I would probably say Terminator 2 is my platonic ideal. Again, leather jackets, souped up shit, super killers. Yeah. I think I lean ultimately, it's funny because Road Warrior is also a post-apocalyptic future storytelling story, but I think the desert versus the kind of dying cityscape. I think I lean dying cityscape more. And maybe that's why I'm more of a carpenter person because a lot of his movies take place in those kinds of environments, though not all of them, obviously. There's a lot of desolation in some of his films too. Likewise for Robocop and Total Recall and the Verhoeven movies where there's like just this kind of glimmer of comedy in the storytelling that I really enjoy.

41:58Sean Fennessey:And I think Onslaught is doing that, you know, not just with the Wareheim character, but with like some of the sarcasm that a lot of the characters are speaking in or some of the outlandish performance styles that like Dan Stevens is rocking with. Aliens falls right in the middle. Yeah, I think it has a lot of the hallmarks just because of the colonial marine stuff. But then it's sort of separated by the classic kind of survivalist like one woman protecting a child against a monster. Are there any other all-time classics that go in this? Because, you know, we've got three tiers here of movies.

42:31Sean Fennessey:And I can certainly make arguments for Starship Troopers or for Snowpiercer. You know, movies that have that feel, those colorways, that dinginess that I was talking about. And sometimes very comic, sometimes very absurd. But to me, there is a distinct difference between aliens and Starship Troopers, even though they're totally related to each other. There's a nice, for Carpenter fans, they'll know these, but they're probably lower on the power rankings for most people's Carpenter films. but John Carpenter's Vampires and Ghosts of Mars are both about incredibly cynical bands of brothers taking on the supernatural and with incredible settings, either in like, I think what, Vampires takes place in like the Great Plains or something or like Texas, right?

43:22I thought it was in the desert, yeah. In the desert. And then Ghosts of Mars is on Mars. Truly. And it features Natasha Henstridge, Jason Statham, and Ice Cube and Pam Greer fighting cannibalistic they're not aliens are they in Ghosts of Mars they're like they've been like taken over by a yeah they're not really ghosts no they're really more zombie-esque

43:41Sean Fennessey:yeah yeah yeah I think I mean I love vampires love John Carpenter's Vampires I think is way underrated Ghosts of Mars I have I'm less interested in but maybe actually fits this even more in a way yes because of some of the story elements fashion the acting styles yeah yeah And you know, there's something about him trying to do his, like Mario Bava's Planet of the Vampires. Like that's really what he's trying to do. It's those kinds of like 50s, 60s movies. But meets Von Ryan's Express. Yes, totally. Universal Soldier? Sure. Yeah. I think this one has been a little bit forgotten. JCVD. Yeah, JCVD, Dolph Lundgren.

44:16Sean Fennessey:Very similar story idea to Onslaught. Like clearly a direct influence. And, you know. Did Adam mention this as like a totem for him? No. He didn't. But you know, it's Roland Emmerich. It's very early Roland Emmerich who went on to make Independence Day and many other big, big, big, noisy blockbusters over the years. Godzilla remake, et cetera. And I remember really liking it, but it's exactly what Adam is talking about on the podcast, what you're talking about, which is I saw it in the attic of a friend of a friend's house when I was 11. And we weren't supposed to be watching it. Yeah. And we snuck it up there.

44:54Sean Fennessey:maybe it was mom and dad's blockbuster rental and we went and we watched it and I was like god damn it this is cool this is such a cool idea such a violent movie I can barely understand either of these men speaking to each other but I'm really enjoying myself so I feel like that movie and because that movie has spawned like a VOD paradise yes of spin-offs and sequels of really like incredible action set pieces some of them yeah the John Himes one is particularly good tier 2 yeah I like what you've got here with Dread and Upgrade. I put Kurt Russell's Soldier on the list. Yeah, and then there's some sequels, rather looked down upon sequels that I think are worth mentioning, particularly McG's Terminator Salvation, which probably lives on because of Christian Bale's viral meltdown, but is actually probably as much Blood and Chrome as the first two.

45:51I agree. and then Predators which was Robert Rodriguez's was it him or he produced it

45:59Sean Fennessey:Nimrod Antal directed it Nimrod Antal directed it with Adrian Brody Lawrence Fishburne Alice Braga Walton Goggins all your guys all super killers dropped on a planet to fight a predator yeah literally criminals right who from prison who have been dropped onto this planet yeah I think there's other movies like I do think that the pitch black Chronicles of Riddick movies are in this zone for sure. V for Vendetta is a movie that I think is, you know, maybe more politically charged. Would you put any of the Matrix movies in there? I think Reload, there's a case for Reloaded in tier one because Reloaded is such a pure action film.

46:34Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And it does have the leather jackets. No, that's the second one. The second one, which has the sequence on the highway. Oh, yeah. And some of the, like, more bravura action sequences in the film where you've got the two albino twins and Neo really going full blown Yeah, I have a leather trench coat. Yes. Hear me roar. It's kind of his most Arnold performance as well. There's something like self-conscious and fun about it, but also very super serious. I like Reloaded a lot. So I think those are there. And then there's like a third wing. Yeah. Of like maybe less respectable or less quote-unquote good movies.

47:08I got creative with this one. Yeah. When we were brainstorming.

47:11Sean Fennessey:I added a few too. And I think there's two tracks. I think there's pure sci-fi and there's pure military. Sometimes they cross over. they cross over in the tomorrow war yeah did you like the tomorrow war more than I thought I would for a what was it like a day and date or like an Amazon Prime straight to Prime blockbuster right with Pratt as a teacher who then becomes a future super soldier against a robot army right I mean this could happen to you any day now you could get called up CR we need you the Pratt battalion if you won't enlist we'll bring you in via draft How would you do in the Tomorrow War?

47:49I think, you know, Chris and I could talk a lot about Young Washington, some of its pros and cons. Have you seen Young Washington?

47:56Sean Fennessey:Not yet, but I will watch it. I also haven't seen The Brink of War, which is about Reagan and Gorbachev. If we did an Angel Studios special, do you think it would do numbers? Angel Studios Hall of Fame? Yeah. I don't think it would do numbers. Yeah, me neither. I don't think the audience is really caught up on those titles. I watched some of them. Yeah. what was the Jim Caviezel hit that he had? Well, I don't know, but he just put one. There's a trailer out for one where he just goes around like breaking the arms of human traffickers. Did you see his film where he portrayed Christ? The Passion of the Christ?

48:28You know what? I actually don't think I saw The Passion of the Christ.

48:31Sean Fennessey:Should we watch it on Easter? Sure. Sound of Freedom. Sound of Freedom. Which was a mega sensation a few years ago. And kind of an indicator, I think, of where certain things were going. Like you can draw some connectivity to like obsession or amazing digital circus. Yes. Where it's like we are hyper-targeting a niche. We actually know that there's a huge audience for this. There's an audience for this, yes. Tomorrow War I threw in there without remorse an absolutely appalling movie from Stefano Solima, my goat with Michael B. Jordan with a screenplay by Taylor Sheridan and yet somehow is the most like morbid, dark kind of dull Tom Clancy reboot you can possibly imagine.

49:13Not sure. I don't think he is going to continue into the Jack Ryan-verse. The plan was Rainbow Six with him and Jamie Bell,

49:21Sean Fennessey:and then it looks like that's dead right now. Yeah. But we shall see. I mean, he did make the Thomas Crown Affair for Amazon. Sure, he seems like he's still in business with them. I'm just saying. I think we would have heard a little bit more. He's got Miami Vice in 28. We have to clear all the other calls until then. Rainbow Six done properly fits neatly into this package. there's a lot of movies like Ultraviolet the Milo Jovovich sci-fi action movie is like this Aeon Flux which doesn't really work but has all the the show release one yeah has all the trappings did you watch the Aeon Flux animated series on MTV I think I've seen it as like this is on MTV for 15 to 20 minutes I'm not not down with that I'm pretty cool with that I just don't sit down to watch it why you're being a little defensive no I just mean like I think that my reputation precedes me as a cartoon hater or an animated...

50:10Oh, I see.

50:10Sean Fennessey:What about The Head? Did you watch The Head? I'm sure I did, but I can't think of even what it's about. Did you watch Beavis and Butthead? For sure. Yeah. Important guys for me. You didn't watch The Simpsons? I did. You did? Yeah, but during the Herman's Head Simpsons live in color era, not just recreationally. I see. More of a Beavis or more of a Butthead? Who's the redhead? There are no redheads in Beavis and Butthead. There's a blonde guy and there's a brown-haired guy. You don't think he's redhead? You don't think... not ginger. I think you're a redhead. Yeah. is that what you're asking? Once upon a time.

50:45I always really appreciated their critique of pavement. It made me look inwardly about some of my tastes. Yeah.

50:51Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And they're like, why don't these guys do something?

50:58Do something.

51:00Sean Fennessey:There was an interesting note in one of Matt Bellany's newsletters recently about Mike Judge trying to claw back the rights to Beavis and Butthead because they are crossing I guess the 35 year threshold for which creators can revert the rights can revert back to them and 2027 will be 35 years since they first appeared on I think Liquid Television Didn't they try to reboot that? Didn't they try to bring Beavis and My Head back? It might actually be active right now. The thing is like to me what was truly wonderful about that show was not the plot machinations episode by episode but the music video stuff.

51:36Sean Fennessey:Mystery science theater. Yeah that was the best part. but also we were music dorks, so what do we know? Tron Legacy, where do you land on that? Six score. Fun to look at. Don't remember a ton about the plot. They're probably not going to make another one of these, even though they seem to be kind of cult classics, so I almost want to put these in blood and chrome just because... Did you watch Ares? Tron Ares? I didn't see Ares. Okay. It's not very strong. Wouldn't recommend it. I do think that franchise is dead for now, although there is a Tron ride at Disney World. Yeah, and the Tron video game continues to do numbers, I bet.

52:10Do you think that guys trying to get the rights back to their franchises or get the rights to their franchises is going to... I saw this Ridley stuff where he's like, I'm going back to Alien. I'm coming back from my corners. Yeah. What about it?

52:26Sean Fennessey:What are you asking me? How feasible is it even for that to happen? I think it depends on how much power and influence you wield. Yeah. You know? I mean, will you be coming back for Take Hunter 10 years from now? Maybe you should. I should. Right? Yeah. What else would you come back for? I would come back for anything that allowed Beavis and Butthead to view my work. Should we... Speak honestly about it. Should we send a strongly worded letter to Josh DeMauro about the ownership of the C is dope? And how can we get that back in your hands? Because that's valuable IP. Sure. Off-sighted, hugely influential, had a real tone and attitude about it.

53:05But I like it almost like Time Bomb. It's like if you know, you know. And maybe like 20 years from now, some guy will be like, you may think that I was influenced by Cormac McCarthy, but in fact, it was this blog post on Grandland that you have to Google specifically to find.

53:18Sean Fennessey:You think that'll still be up? In some capacity, if we still have an internet, yeah. It's all out there. Yeah. You know, just kind of grab it. Thank you, CR. Thank you. Okay, let's go now to my conversation with Adam Wingard and Michael Biehn.

53:35Sean Fennessey:Michael Biehn and Adam Wingard. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu, now streaming on Disney+. Read PG-13. Dan Garter here. Incredible moment. Adam, I know that you grew up loving Michael. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the first time you saw him on screen or not on screen and how you developed a relationship to his work.

54:21Well, earmuffs, Michael, because this is embarrassing to talk about. You know, I don't want to weird him out. You know, actually, he's heard me tell this story a bunch of times. This is part of our mythology now. But yeah, like it kind of goes all the way back to when I was a little kid. Back in the early 90s, I was at a Walmart with my family and they had just released a toy series of aliens. And the toy series consisted of like the Space Marines and all these like different versions of like the alien figures. And I had never heard of the series up to that point. Um, and so when me and my brother saw them at the store, we were just like fascinated.

55:05And for whatever reason, my parents were in a good mood and they, you know, it wasn't every time you'd go to the toy store, they would actually buy you a bunch of shit. And so like, we actually walked away with, you know, a couple space Marines and a couple aliens. And, you know, specifically I picked up the Hicks figure, you know, which is Michael's figure. And, um, you know, it became literally my favorite toy, you know, and I still remember the toy. Actually, I have another one that I had Michael sign on his podcast. It's my most treasured item that I have. But, you know, like the figure is really interesting.

55:38He had like a bazooka. I don't know why. He didn't have a bazooka in the movie. And one of his hands, for some reason, was kind of like one was straight and the other one's kind of like this, you know. But it was like that was like the toy that like, you know, I didn't just strictly like when I bought toys. It wasn't like G.I. Joe's go over here. He-Man's go over here. It was like they all kind of work together, you know. So that Hicks toy, you know, he interfaced with a lot of the other toys, you know. So, you know, like we got these toys. We were obsessed with it. But we hadn't seen the movies, right?

56:11And like I grew up in a really small town called Marion, Alabama. And the one video store we had was like part Radio Shack, which is like I don't even know if that's like a legal kind of thing that they had going. So it was like half Radio Shack and half video rental store. And we go there, and they had just a copy of the first Alien. And I think maybe Alien 3 was just coming out. It was right there at the beginning of the 90s. And so we got both of those. And then we're like, wait a minute. These don't have the space marines. What's the deal? So, oh, it's Aliens. That's the one we needed to see.

56:51And so we go to the head of the video store. His name was Tommy, I think. And we're like, can you get a copy of Aliens? And we looked everywhere. At the time, for whatever reason, Aliens was kind of out of print and hard to find. And so Tommy, he goes and orders a copy of it, and it doesn't come in for a week. And then we kept going back in pretty much every day. It was like every day we'd go in, is aliens been, is aliens yet? Is it here yet? And this went on for a long time, at least like a month or two, right? And at a certain point, I think somehow Tommy just got tired of us coming in there asking about aliens.

57:33And so he went out and somehow tracked down a copy, and we rented it from him. And we had it in our possession for an entire month. And I lost count of how many times we watched it. I think it was like 24 times or something. We would just watch it constantly. How old were you? I would have been probably like 10, you know, something like that, you know, 9 or 10. And so, yeah, which is pretty young to be watching the Alien films, you know.

58:04Sean Fennessey:I think we're the exact same age, and that's probably exactly when I saw it too. Yeah, well, that's like, you know, like I was always too afraid to watch horror movies, and I always felt like the Alien movies, the Terminator films, Those are sort of like the gateway movies into getting into horror because they're still sci-fi. And like, weirdly, I still kind of think of like Terminator and Aliens as being for kids, you know, like, but like. They were marketed to us. They wanted us to see it. Yeah. So I'm watching this movie and I'm like, you know, you know, for the very first time, I remember the whole time it was like, which one's Hicks?

58:34Which one's Hicks? You know, I just wanted to know, you know, and like, you know, Michael comes on and he's like so cool in the movie. You know, he's got his like, I like to keep this handy for close encounters. and, you know, all his cool lines. And, you know, he's so cool, he's falling asleep in the drop ship, you know, on the way down. And so totally lived up to the expectations, you know. And around the same time, you know, me and my friends were really discovering Terminator for the first time. So we became obsessed with Michael Biehn. This is all in Alabama. And we created what we called a Michael Biehn fan club.

59:05And I still remember writing it down on a piece of paper, you know, We all thought that Hicks was the coolest guy and all your roles, really. And we didn't really know how to say Michael's last name either because we're a bunch of Hicks from Alabama. So we used to call you Michael Bayhan. I'm sure you got that a lot. It's not the first time I've been called Michael Bayhan. And so, you know, like, flash forward, you know, many, many years later, you know, we're developing Onslaught. And, you know, I'm sitting there with Simon. He's writing the script. And, you know, we get to this character, Baylor, and we're kind of just, like, doing our wish list of, like, you know, who do we want to cast or who do we want to kind of write with our, you know, thinking of in this role.

59:54And at that time, Simon and I were really obsessed with a movie called Time Bomb. which is like a lesser known film. Have you ever seen Time Bomb? I haven't seen it, no. Oh, man. I mean, when I brought it up to you, you were like, oh, yeah, nobody's mentioned Time Bomb in a long time, you know, but it's a cool movie, actually. It was... It was directed by a guy named Avi Nesher, who had directed a movie about the English being involved in the Middle East and kind of getting thrown out. And it was like a really, really, really good movie. And so I saw that movie and met Avi and I said I would do it.

1:00:44uh rafael de laurentes uh produced it and um they cast patsy kens in it and um you know um knowing smile well yeah i had uh yeah she was she very attractive but she she played a um a psychologist in it and uh it was a small movie and it it didn't do any business um uh and it wasn't as good as I thought it was but Adam brought it up when he wrote me a letter um introducing himself and he brought it up saying you know I love the action sequences in this I'm going to have my stunt team go through, watch this movie because I liked the stunt so much. And, um, you know, so, you know, something that I hadn't thought about for a long time and I didn't really think about, I thought of Patsy for a long time, but I, I didn't think about, um, I didn't think about the movie for, for a long time.

1:01:51And that came up out of kind of nowhere. Well, yeah. Cause like Simon and I were always talking about it with it. But my film, The Guest, it's like, at one point, I was actually interested in seeing if we could get the rights to Time Bomb just to tie it in and make it in the same universe, literally, as The Guest for a sequel. Because they feel like it's the same thing. It's like a super soldier kind of program. He's sort of like an almost MKUltra super soldier that has his memory wiped and stuff. And, you know, so Simon and I are really obsessed with that. And that's why we kind of like, you know, Michael was really on the top of our minds when we were doing it.

1:02:27And he's right. It's like the it's kind of an interesting film because it's got like a lot of like B movie elements to it. But the the action in it is like fucking like unparalleled. I mean, like, I don't know what the deal was like with who the action choreographer was, but it's some of the coolest stuff. And the action scenes are all pretty short. Right. But they're just these insane bursts. I took a lot of inspiration because I like how you guys in that film, anytime you're shooting a machine gun, you're always screaming. And there's something very primal and realistic about that because you get the feeling like the character is almost trying to threaten as he's firing.

1:03:07Was that your idea or was that sort of the choreographer's? That's just me having fun. You know? It is bad. You know, if I'm out on a range someplace and I got a machine gun, I'm screaming at the same time, you know. Yeah. No character development there.

1:03:25Sean Fennessey:I did want to ask you, though. Did you know when you were working in the 80s and 90s that kids like Adam had that relationship to your work? Did you have a consciousness of being idolized and that there were fan clubs? Like, obviously, they were successful films. You know what? I don't. I think I'm just different than a lot of actors. I came out to L.A. to work. I needed right away to get a job so I could not work at the manual labor job that I had. And so I started in bits and pieces in television. And I never dreamt in my wildest dreams that I would end up in some of the movies and work with some of the people that I worked with.

1:04:16I thought, like, if I could be on a soap opera for 10 years and get paid$100 ,000 a year, I would have sold my soul for it. You know, getting a commercial was a huge deal. Getting into the Screen Actors Guild was a huge deal. getting a modeling job that a picture showed up in Playboy. I'd run home and show my parents. And my expectations were really low. I've talked to a lot of actors. I knew ever since I was three or four that I wanted to be an actor. I didn't at all. I went to college. Are there nudes of you in Playboy? That's Playgirl. That's Playgirl. Yeah. You should know that. I think you do.

1:05:01So, I don't, so I never, it was always about the work to me. And it was, I just would go from one job to another job to another job. And I was very, very serious about the work. And I never had a publicist. I was never, I never, I felt a little bit better. We did the red carpet for his movie. And what's it called? I'm still on. So we, and I felt a little bit more comfortable, but I never really felt comfortable doing press and doing the red carpet and doing pictures and going to parties and stuff like that. So I was not aware. I mean, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, they started calling me iconic.

1:05:54And so I had to get my dictionary out and read like iconic. Okay. And I just am a different type of a person when it comes to the movie star element and the actor element. The actor element I've always been very serious about and always been very, very passionate about. the movie star stuff I always felt uncomfortable I'd go on like the morning show and I'd go and done Johnny Carson show and I just I just it just made me feel uncomfortable and uh I'm better now because I have a podcast and it's easier when you're doing three minute bites you know and you got to get something out uh to promote your movie and be cute at the same time that's like I was never very, very, very good at and felt very, very uncomfortable.

1:06:55And standing, I still even standing in that line, Hey, Michael, over here, over here. You know, it all just seems a little, you know, I like the work. I like, and I really, really, really enjoy the work and collaborating. And one of the reasons why Adam and I got along so well is we took his words and we mushed them and we played with them. And I had some weird ideas. And what about this? And what about that? Yes, Michael. And no, Michael. And the most important thing for me and the most fun thing for me is, and you don't always get this experience, but when you are able to have a writer, director, an actor in the words, okay, you start with that.

1:07:55A lot of times that's what you just end up with. You go do a movie and those are the lines and that's the director and I do my job, he does his job and those are the lines. But in our situation, and it was the same with me with Jim Cameron. It was the same with me with Billy Friedkin. It's been the same with me. The fun of it for me is being able to go like, hey, this is cool. What do you want to do with it? Well, let's push this over here. What do you think about this idea? I like that idea. Let's go with that idea. What about this? Not so much, you know, but but being able to mold it and and be collaborative is the for me, it's the high of acting.

1:08:41It's the highest part of acting. And we did quite a bit of that for a role that doesn't have an extraordinary amount of screen time. We worked a lot on that. And we had fun. And we made some changes to what I think that I thought what we were going to be doing when I came in. And maybe what Adam thought we were going to be doing when we came in. and I thought it worked out really well. And so that to me is the important thing.

1:09:19Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I kind of wanted to ask you about not just that sequence, but the whole vibe of the movie. You spent about 10 years in IP world, making big movies where there's a lot of, I guess, interested parties probably that have to... To say the least. Yeah. And I really fell in love with your movies with You're Next and the Guest. Those are my favorites of your films. And this feels like a real return to that, very conscious return to that. I was wondering maybe you could talk a little bit about why you pivoted back to doing a movie like this. And maybe why these movies are so important to you. I mean, I guess it kind of started back in 2021.

1:10:01This was during the pandemic. and, you know, the world was in an apocalyptic state. And, you know, I, you know, we managed to squeeze out Godzilla vs. Kong and it was, you know, still successful at the top of that year. And that was just, you know, just such an intense situation. And, you know, in some ways I think back to that time and I'm like, would I have done, you know, another sequel to Godzilla vs. Kong right away if the pandemic hadn't happened? And but because there was this feeling of like, you know, it felt like movies could just go away. And it was like, you know, and I had a great time doing Godzilla versus Kong.

1:10:40It was a lot of work. And I was at the end of it just like I felt like I was going to be really burnt out. But really just like after like a short period of recoup and, you know, the fear of the industry going down, it was sort of like, hell, I'm ready to throw me back in. Let's do another, you know. And so I instantly the second that we were able to develop another one, I did. and so you know we started that process towards the end of the year of 2021 and um and you know at that time i've been working on a lot of other little stuff and i'd had a lot of movies set up you know i was like attached to face off 2 and thundercats and a movie called hardcore just all these big studio projects you know so all my development was kind of in that direction but i really wanted to do something a little smaller a little bit you know more my thing but i didn't really had that story quite yet, you know.

1:11:26And then at the end of the year, I was over at Simon Barrett's house. He lives like just a couple blocks from me on the other side of Los Feliz Boulevard, which is a pretty, you know, the traffic goes pretty good, good and fast down there. And so we had, we finished our day of working on Face Off too. And, you know, I remember I was like about to walk across the street, you know, and I thought, oh, you know, I should go to the grocery store and get some tacos, like some stuff to make tacos. And so I started turning around and I started walking towards the grocery store and I thought, you know, I'm going to go get my car.

1:12:02I was picturing myself with like bags walking up the street, you know. And so I was like, fuck it, I'm going to go back to my house. And so I went back over to the street and then the light turned green, you know, or the crosswalk light turned on and I took like two or three steps in the road and a car just plowed right into me, you know, and I like flipped over the hood of it, you know, like, like basically the way that I can describe it is like, I never actually saw the car and the car never stopped by the way. It just kept going. And like, it was like, I went from being like thinking about, I'm going to go make tacos for dinner.

1:12:38You know, that would have been my last thought to suddenly it was like, I couldn't really see anything, but I was aware that I was getting hit by a car. And it was like I was in a like a tornado is what it felt like, you know. So I don't know if it looked as impressive as it felt, you know, but it was interesting because everything does go in slow motion, you know, like I didn't feel any pain, but I was I knew I was being hit by a car, you know. Wow. And like I landed and the first feeling I had was embarrassment, weirdly, of like, oh, my God, that was my fault, you know, because I didn't even think about the fact at At first, it only occurred to me later.

1:13:16I was like, no, I had the right away. Somebody just ran a red light, you know. But I, like, pulled myself out of the road, and I thought, oh, my God. I was like, am I paralyzed, you know. And so, you know, I tried to stand up, and then all the pain hit me, right. And it really, it felt like somebody took a gigantic paddle and just, like, just, like, the size of me and just hit this side of me, you know. And it was just, like, all this pain surged. I couldn't get up, you know. And, you know, but I was kind of doing this, like, check, you know. The scariest thing when you do something like that is that you're sort of like, okay, is my neck okay?

1:13:49Am I paralyzed? Can I move my legs? And you go through this process. You're like, okay, I'm in a lot of pain, but I'm okay. And I just felt like all this blood on my face. And this guy runs up to me, and he's like, oh, my God, are you okay? I was like, oh, my God. I was like, I thought that my whole face had gotten ripped off. That's what it felt like. And I was like, oh, my God, do I have a face? And he was like, yeah, yeah, you're all right. You know, like, and so, you know, one of the bystanders that came by, they called like an ambulance and stuff. And so, like, I got them to like go get Simon.

1:14:22Simon comes out from his apartment, you know, and he comes over and he's like, oh, yeah, you look all right, man. And like, you know, so like the ambulance comes against me and takes me off. Long story short, you know, like I'm really fucked up for a little while. And I started that Godzilla movie in a cast, you know, like because the pre-production officially started two weeks after that. And so I didn't have any time to heal at all, you know. And then, you know, six months later, my partner gets pregnant. And this was like a totally unexpected thing. And then so suddenly I'm thrust into all these like I'm thrust into this new reality where I'm a father.

1:15:00I'm recuperating from this accident. You know, I'm making another, you know,$150 million movie. You know, all the pressures that come with that and the stress. You know, I ended up having another little physical problem that I don't want to go into right now. But and so, you know, like once I finished that Godzilla movie and I was in post-production, I thought, well, you know, what's interesting is now I'm in a place that weirdly like, you know, because I've been in franchise IP land for so long, you know, I didn't really have a story to tell. You know, it was like I didn't I was all my movies for so long since the guests were focused on, you know, just building my career.

1:15:41And so that's why they were all sort of like these are the available movies that I can get made, you know, and I could put myself into them, but they weren't my story. And so I was like, I knew that I want to do a story about a parent, you know, a reluctant parent. I knew I wanted to do a story about kind of PTSD in a way, you know, the military thing just became like a way to do that. because I felt like I was working through my own things. And, you know, so this movie, even though it's like when you watch it, it's just like a good time and it's like fun. And, you know, sometimes it's ridiculous and sometimes it's funny.

1:16:13And it's got a couple disturbing things. And, you know, it is about a character dealing with like past trauma and stuff like that. But, you know, I wanted to do something that I could put myself into.

1:16:26Sean Fennessey:It's very personal, it sounds like. Oh, yeah. That's a crazy story. Yeah, it was wild. It's funny. I was thinking as I was thinking about talking to both of you guys, I was trying to think about how to characterize the kind of movie that it is and the way that like you're really even being used in the movie as like a, like a talisman, like a symbol for this, the history of these movies, right? Like the Terminator and aliens and a lot of these films represent. And I kept thinking of black and chrome. Like that was the thing that's like the color, the images, the ideas that struck me. And those movies are defined by their action.

1:16:57Sean Fennessey:You've made a lot of action movies. You've made a lot of action movies. I was hoping you could maybe demythologize like what makes a good action movie and how do you know you're making a good action movie if you do? Because what we see on screen is obviously so dramatically different from what it's like to be on set of one of these movies. You can talk more about, you know, shooting action. You know, I'm just like, where do I run? you know where do i jump you know i don't i don't really know the basics of um of of of uh shooting action so you can talk about do you know when you're making one that it's working well you know every shot that you do whether it's action whether it's an action shot or whether it's just you know talking most actors at least i know when it's working and when it's not working And, you know, we rely on our director at the same time.

1:17:56You know, the action sequences for me really got, you know, real when I, you know, did The Terminator. And, you know, Jim was very intense and very focused. And because of his intensity and his focus and his passion, you know, I wanted to please him. And so I did a lot of running and jumping. And there were a few stunts in there that I didn't do. When it comes to action, for instance, when Adam said, oh, I just saw this movie that you did called Time Bomb. And the action in it is incredible. I'd seen Time Bomb in a rough cut. and I was like very disappointed because I'd seen this guy's previous movie.

1:18:49So I just know, I know when things work and when they don't work and mostly action sequences, I think are a lot easier to make work than some of the other stuff. Am I wrong? I mean, from a director's standpoint, that might be completely different. Well, you know, I was really delighted when we did this one because, you know, like your character doesn't have a lot of action, but there's an intense moment that you have to do. And you definitely insisted on doing it. And we didn't use a double for you or anything at all. I don't think we did at all, no, because you fell back on the pad and everything.

1:19:30And by the way, like on set, like, you know, we had to put some squibs on Michael. And like, there's like a moment where like, when we did it, just like kind of around everybody, he took his shirt off and everybody was like, damn, man, just looking at this. It was like, he's still got it, man. Look at that. You know, like everybody's all jealous and shit. You know, it's funny. It's like people ask me all the time about like, oh, you know, you look like you really enjoy doing action. You know, is it really fun to be doing that stuff? And the answer is absolutely not. Action's never fun because you never have enough time to do it, you know?

1:20:03And it's fun in the sense that when you're rolling and it works, it's like, yeah, everybody's having a blast in that moment. But it's just like action requires so much coverage most of the time. And even more difficult if you're trying to do it in a longer take, it takes that much more prep. And in a movie like this, a lot of the choreography is tied in with gunshots and all this stuff. And so, you know, action is one of those things that like it's I love it. But, you know, yeah, it's it's yeah. Yeah, it can be a pain in the ass.

1:20:41Sean Fennessey:Are you ever surprised after you finish something that you maybe if you weren't sure if something was working or not when one of these movies goes on to be iconic? Like I know you've talked about Tombstone, right, where that was like a little bit of a more complicated production. Well, here's the thing is that people don't realize, they won't realize with this movie either. There'll be a bunch of people come out and review it and they'll say this and they'll say that about it. But they don't really effing know. Okay. Terminator came out. Terminator came out and it did well. It won the first weekend and nobody really expected that.

1:21:24but Terminator was not in the top 20 movies box office the year it came out. Okay. So it wasn't this, you know, now we think of like the Terminator, of course it was this huge hit. It wasn't, it wasn't. And, um, uh, uh, uh, nobody was like clamoring to get me in their movies. And luckily I, I was able to work with Jim a few more times. And now, you know, people talk about the Terminators being iconic, being, you know, changing the way that, you know, people, you know, shoot movies. And Tombstone is another example of a movie that we made. We had a lot of problems making it. The movie came out.

1:22:14Nobody gave a shit. Nobody cared. I can remember the New York Times review was just horrible. A lot of bad reviews. Nobody ever, because I want to read my own reviews, see what people say. New York Times, L.A. Times, The Reporter, The Variety, San Francisco Chronicle, The Texas. Nobody even mentioned Johnny Wingo. Didn't even get a mention. And when they were talking, everybody said Val was good. But most people didn't like that movie, okay? So the people's immediate reactions to movies, reviewers, and when they have to all of a sudden write down, oh, I like this movie for these reasons and I didn't like it for these reasons.

1:23:05I really don't think that they're that applicable to really how good the movie is. people don't realize you know Shawshank is another example of a movie that like nobody cared about nobody cared about it now yeah I mean like with the guest I mean like that's probably like the movie I'm most identified with in a lot of ways um and you know like on that one we got like good reviews out of the festivals but like nobody saw that film at all I was just telling someone I saw

1:23:34Sean Fennessey:it at a screening at the Ace Theater out here in LA and it was blew the doors off like you would have thought it was the Terminator when it played. But then, you know, it's also about how many people will a movie reach at any given time and then how they find it. Like you told the story about going to the video store to find aliens. Like that's how I saw a lot of your movies. I don't think I even saw Tombstone in theaters. I think I saw it on video. And like, I think the shelf life thing continues. But one thing I was worrying, thinking about with you is you saw that over the course of 10 or 12 years of your career where like, yes, the Terminator becomes increasingly more popular in the 80s.

1:24:08Sean Fennessey:Did you find yourself trying to chase parts like that or movies? No, no. I, I was just trying to make a living and I was like trying to take, um, you know, the best roles that came along. Um, I was, I've never really chased anything. I'm just like, I got sent scripts and And if I liked them, I did them. A lot of them I didn't like. My big mistake with my career was I would get a script, like Navy SEALs, for instance, and I would get it and say, like, oh, this is not really what I was expecting. Charlie Sheen's doing it? Oh, Charlie Sheen's doing it. Oh, okay. Okay. Um, who's directing it? Lewis Teague.

1:25:00Lewis Teague. What's he done? A Woman in Red. Oh, A Woman in Red. Oh, that was good. Like I, you know, I liked A Woman in Red. That was, that was really well done. Cujo too. Come on. Cujo. Well, Cujo. Yeah. Okay. And so, so I needed that push. And, um, so I, I, so I said, okay, I'm in. And then I found out he didn't direct A Woman in Red. That was Gene Wilder who directed A Woman in Red. He directed a movie called a lady in red so uh but that movie like it needed a lot of work and um unlike adam unlike jim cameron unlike billy friedkin um they they had the clamps down on that script i don't know what they wanted to make some comedy or something like that um it's like four movies in one.

1:25:49Sean Fennessey:It's all, the tones are all over the place. It's a mess. And we had the Navy behind us going, hey, you want to shoot on an aircraft carrier? Shoot on the aircraft carrier. You want to fly in jets? We'll fly in jets. You want to do helicopter stuff? We'll do helicopter stuff. We have a Navy SEAL to double each one of you. We got underwater stuff. And that was my biggest disappointment. I kind of forget what your original question was, really. It makes me think of something that's true for both of you guys in your careers. Navy SEALs now has a$50 4K, and people love that movie. So even if you worked on it and you're like, I don't know, it didn't work.

1:26:32Sean Fennessey:Nobody loves that movie. You'd be surprised, man. I don't know where you're getting your information from. I'll tell you what, no Navy SEALs love that movie. That may be true. and you know your early films too like maybe they weren't huge box office successes but like they these things they build cults around them especially genre movies they really have these massive cults like what is it like to kind of experience that having made something and feeling like maybe it didn't totally reach as many people as you wanted well you know it's funny it's like you know back then it was probably pretty disappointing but more from the perspective not just of the individual movies but more what it meant for the longevity of my career because for me for many years, it was always about like getting the next one set up, you know, because, you know, like that, that's really where like it hurt me more, you know, because the reviews were good in those early movies, but the, but the box office wasn't good.

1:27:25And, but, you know, I have to admit like, you know, after doing those Godzilla movies and A24 probably doesn't want me to hear me say this, but like when I was setting up this film, I was like, this is not a movie that's about opening weekend for me. I mean, you know, you hope for the best and everything, but for me, It's like, you know, kind of selfishly as a director, I felt like I needed to kind of solidify who I am as a filmmaker because I think like I felt like I was kind of getting lost in the franchise IP thing. And, you know, even though those movies have my personality in them and some of my style, it's like you're still playing by pre-established rules that those IP and stuff dictate, you know.

1:28:02them. And so for me, the mission statement was like, I want to get in there and I want to do my movie and, you know, hopefully it's successful when it comes out. But I felt like if I'm doing my thing, it's like, this is a calling card for another 10 years. If I'm not able to convince somebody to let me make another one of these for a while, you know, and, um, and, you know, and that's an important thing that, you know, filmmakers, you know, like, especially if you get kind of sucked into the studio system is that at a certain point, you know, like if you're able to step away, it's like you kind of have to, you know, you have to like force yourself to get back in there and, you know, do the movies that are, you know, kind of all about your own thing, you know.

1:28:44And, you know, also for me too, you know, Tombstone would come out and I didn't look at it is like, oh, it's not doing, you know, like I was too busy trying to make a living. I've got five boys. I've been married three times. I, you know, I just had to work and I was just like working. And so for whatever reason, I never sat back and thought like, I didn't realize box office was even important in any way, uh, until I did grind house. And when I did grind house, It was the very first time I remember looking at the opening weekend and thinking, oh, that's weaker than I expected. But I'm so busy doing the acting part of it that the career and the iconic, whatever, all those words and that just happened.

1:29:42There was no, there was no like, well, I'll do this movie. And if I do this movie, then that will happen. There was no planning on being, I never thought a movie star or a film actor working with people like Adam and Jim and, and, um, um, all sorts of good people and working with great actors. It never dawned on me, never thought that I would ever work in these environments. And so it's hard for me to explain, but I just never thought of it as a career as much as a job. And there are guys like Johnny Depp and like Brad Pitt and numerous, numerous people, Denzel and Richard Gere, numerous people that are great movie stars and great actors, too.

1:30:38But I felt like I did a really good job acting. But the movie star stuff, I just I didn't pay attention to it and I didn't feel comfortable. It's funny that you put it that way because I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you're really able to get, I think, what could be otherwise perceived as sometimes more prestigious actors to really let their freak out.

1:30:56Sean Fennessey:You know, like Dan is so good in your movies. Literally in this one, we get a lot of freakiness. Truly, but like Rebecca and Drew Starkey is so, so good and so magnetizing in this movie. Why do you think actors want to play like that in your movies? What is it about that you see in them that you want to see that from them? I don't know. Maybe, yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think, you know, I'm a very collaborative person, not just with actors, but across the board with, you know, everybody. I mean, the funny thing is about when you're making films, the director is oftentimes the least experienced one on set, you know.

1:31:33And I remember back in the mid-2000s, a friend of mine was writing a movie, and it was for a film. I won't say which movie it was, but I think the budget was about a million and a half. And so we were right out of film school, and so it was like, oh, cool. They're doing this big movie out in New Orleans or wherever it was. And so we went on set, and the guy directing it was a writer up until that point. And this was his first movie he ever directed. and um and so he really didn't know what he was doing and it's self-admittedly he didn't know what he was doing he even said like when we showed up he was like he was like yeah you know like um you know like i didn't know really like what a director did like when i came on set the first day i was like do i tell him where to put the lights or whatever you know and he's telling us this stuff and i'm just like what you know what i mean like and then it kind of hit me i'm looking at like this guy doesn't know what he's doing, admittedly doesn't know what he's doing.

1:32:31And you got all these professionals around him that do know what they're doing. Right. And you got all these jobs. And it suddenly hit me. I was like, a movie is designed so that even if the director has no idea what he's doing, it will get done. It may not be a good movie, but it will get completed. Absolutely. And sometimes that works. Sometimes there's a magic to just the pure creativity that somebody can bring. and it can, you know, even if they don't really know all the ins and outs of directing, you know, it can still turn into something. Tombstone was a lot like that. And Tombstone is a beloved movie.

1:33:07These days, that movie 30 years ago, nobody cared about. Now, everybody absolutely loves it. But that movie had Kevin Jarre for four weeks. They threw out most of his material. They brought in George Cosmatos, who was a shooter, had no idea what the story was about, what the characters were about or whatever. They shot it. They got it to a good editor. And, you know, it didn't really have a director. People ask about Kurt directing it, and Kurt was totally responsible for... We had a script that was 160 pages, and he tightened it up, and a lot of actors lost scenes. and he had to be the person who was in charge, and he's a great guy and a great leader.

1:34:00This is going to have to go, Michael. This is going to have to go, Powers. The wives, this is going to have to go. But it was a mess. It didn't have a director. It had a series of people that were sort of directing it. And when it came out, it didn't do anything. Now, 30 years later, that's just kind of typical of you don't need a director my 11 year old son could be a director because he could because dp could come to him and say you want the cameras over here over here and he said put them over there okay you want that actor that actor i'll take that actor you know you want to like uh shall we run this scene yeah go ahead all right we'll shoot it like this yes are you happy you Like, truly, truly.

1:34:49Yeah, well, and, you know, like with me, I really like working with repeat actors, you know. I think it's like that rapport that you can build is great. Like, I mean, for instance, Rebecca Hall and Dan Stevens, like, I couldn't have started my experience with them with this movie for a lot of reasons, you know. And it was the, you know, they trust me and I trust them. And it was almost like we were challenging ourselves to do things that they'd never done before, you know, because we had that familiarity. you know and you know I think it's the same with Michael I mean it's like this was our first kind of testing ground but by the end of it like we were already really kind of having a lot of fun like there's a sequence in this movie where you know where Michael's like sort of like offending Dan Stevens character and in the script he's sort of just like you know you know I was actually picturing it one way which was a little bit more straightforward like it's kind of written in a way where he's sort of just like, you know, you just ate shit, doctor.

1:35:45And he's sort of just like talking down to him, you know. And on the day, Michael was like, he's like, you know, like, I want to try something, you know. Like, what if, like, I'm like totally humiliating this guy and I'm just laughing at him. I'm just laughing my ass off. And I was like, you know, and I'm thinking, okay, this could work. But if it doesn't work, I need to make sure that I have like an out, you know. But I want to give it a shot, you know. So, you know, I tempered the expectations. I was like, all right, let's try it. I was like, but let's at least do it the way it's scripted. And, you know, just in case, you know.

1:36:20And then, you know, he did like take one of it. And I was like, okay, forget the way it's scripted. This is working. Let's do that, you know. So I'm looking forward to our next one. I mean, you can see, you know, I got Michael to, you know, he's scruffier than usual. This is because I've asked him to. And, you know, so we can't say what it is yet, you know. But right away I was like, okay, will you grow your hair out like this? And he texted me, yes, sir. And I was like, yes.

1:36:49Sean Fennessey:Michael, I want to ask you about that because what Dan is doing in the movie is pretty big. And you've been opposite. Like Paxton in Aliens is big. So when you're acting and you know an actor is making a big choice in the way that they're performing, how do you respond to that? Is that something that is discussed before you start shooting? You know, usually it's always about the words. It's all from an actor's standpoint. It's always how good the words are, you know, and this was an extremely well-written script. OK. The reason why I made that choice was this was described early on. I don't know if it was you or A24 as a gonzo something or other, you know, which is to me just meant like anything goes, you know, it's like playing an Alzheimer's person.

1:37:37And, you know, I could just say anything I want here. And, you know, and I thought I'm not even sure where that came from. I just thought, wouldn't it be fun if instead of, you know, it staying in that sort of realm of I'm disappointed for the company that I'm working for, that this didn't work out, that this whole thing was just insane. And it just struck me as funny. and I didn't think he would go for it. I didn't think he would go for it. I just didn't. I just, but this is the thing about Adam. I think most good actors, and I heard Drew was this way too. Come after you. Come after you. What about this?

1:38:22What about this? Can we try this? Can we try that? What do you think about this? Okay, well, let's give it a try. And Jim is also good that way, you know? Just like, yeah, okay. And he'll say no to me eight times out of ten. But two times out of ten, he'll say, well, let's try it. Or once, you know, like, yeah, this really works. And that to me is a very collaborative. What makes movies fun for me is not showing up on the set, not showing up on the red carpet, not learning my lines. It's getting together with a group of two or three or four people, including your DP and your sound guy, you know, and saying, well, like, how are we going to mold this to make it even better, you know?

1:39:12And how are we going to kind of make this, like, you know, jump? And I think that we took, you know, when I first got the role, Adam sent me a letter and said that he was a fan and would I do this. And I immediately went out and saw the guest and I was like, okay, I'm definitely going to do this for sure. Not that I wouldn't have anyway, but then I watched two King Kong versus Godzilla that he made. And I'm not the guy, I'm not going to watch King Kong versus Godzilla. That's just not my fucking, you know, that's just not my wheelhouse, you know. But I watched it and right from the very beginning I thought, oh, this is kind of interesting.

1:39:56They're fun. Oh, look, yeah, you know, this is a lot more. There was a lot there that I didn't even realize because I hadn't given it a chance. And so, you know, so, you know, then I signed on and, you know, it was great. And the thing also that was happening is that Adam had already shot the rest of the movie. So, you know, the movie, you know, that I work with with Dan in that sequence. that entire sequence that takes place with the helicopters coming in and, and us coming up. And that was all. So he already had shot his movie and he looked really fucking confident. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I know what I have.

1:40:41He looked like he was really happy with what he already shot, you know? And that, that, and I asked him also like, you know, how'd it go? Going great, Michael, going great. You'd never know if it didn't though. Yeah. No, but this was a great shoot. This was like the smoothest shoot that I ever had. So it was authentic.

1:41:02Sean Fennessey:Well, you said you described it as a calm set, but this is not a calm movie. This is like a rip roaring movie. He's calm. Okay. He is a leader that leads, I would say, by example, but he's calm. and I'm sure inside of his head he's intense but he's not running around this and that you know, he'll, we'll finish the shot and then he will walk over to the next place he's going to shoot and his crew just kind of follows him over there and he's very calm and maybe it's because he knows what he wants but I've been telling this story I gotta tell this story because I, this is, this to me is about, um, like, uh, collaboration.

1:41:55Okay. So I, I found out cause I talked to your DP yesterday at the party and I found out something, but anyway, so, um, I, I had to go off and do another movie. So Adam showed me the movie about four months ago. And I was, uh, when I went to see the movie, I was, I was like, ah, what am I going to safe it's like it's not as good as i you know you still think about that because you've been in that position before well i have and the problem with me is i'm really honest i told jim cameron i thought the third act of aliens had some uh not uh the abyss the third act of the abyss had something chunky about it some people agree yeah just you know and uh uh uh uh, so, so anyway, so this is kind of this collaborative thing that I'm talking about.

1:42:48I'm shooting a scene and, uh, uh, I'm waiting for the doctor. I'm waiting for, uh, the doctor to show up. And so I say to Adam, like, I'm fucking just standing around here waiting for the scene to open. He give me a phone just so I've got something that I'm doing. You know, the phone ends up being like kind of part of the character. So I take the phone. phone and which was not scripted or anything so i take the phone and i'm doing this and we had a real good prop guy real good prop guy and he took the phone and he did some stuff to it and made it look kind of military not that it makes any difference but maybe it would help me or whatever so i'm looking at the phone i'm doing the phone and then we're getting ready to shoot what i would consider like a master and although he doesn't really shoot masters per se but what i would consider shooting a master.

1:43:42And the next thing I know, he is like down on the phone and the phone is the beginning of the shot. Okay. And then he pulls back to reveal me. And then he pulls back even further to reveal the operators. So if I hadn't said to him, Hey, can I have a phone? And this is like a director who's, you know, he's got a storyboard and he could shoot it 20 different ways. But because I asked for a phone, he thought, hey, maybe we'll do it like this. And we did. So when I saw it last night, I realized. I thought like I thought I saw that the first time. And then your DP told me, oh, the shot's in there. But it's just when it's pulled back a little further.

1:44:32But my point is, is that me being able to say, hey, that shot wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for my input, which was not input. It was just, hey, can I have a phone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what's exciting, you know, about.

1:44:50Sean Fennessey:Do you think that's something you would have done 15 years ago? I mean, I was even more seated the pants 15 years ago. Well, yeah, because my first movies were all—and that's probably where this comes from is my first movies were—we didn't even have scripts. We just improvised the whole film because I was part of a movement that people call mumblecore. And those mumblecore movies were entirely unscripted, just actors kind of riffing. And you just shoot a ton of footage, and then you kind of put a movie together. And so that was a good lesson, though, for me, because it does teach you to sort of like not be rigid.

1:45:28I'm you know, I've never been the type of filmmaker where like I'm like just shoot the boards, you know what I mean? Because like I want that kind of like the realism, the spontaneity. And again, I want to be inspired by the people around me, you know, like the actors, the crew and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, the shot you're talking about, like we knew we wanted to do a shot with like you're waiting. And we and we had all the guys like suiting up and all their stuff. but we didn't really have a beginning to the shot. And so whenever I saw you on the phone, I was like, oh, this is interesting.

1:45:56It also said something about your character because it's like, you know, this guy's in the middle of this like, you know, crazy military exercise and he's busy, you know what I mean? And he's the only guy that gets a phone at this place, you know? But there was also a twofold thing too is that because it was the beginning of the shot, we were able to kind of like just kind of subconsciously stash one of the, like the cockroach, one of the main killers, his mask over there, you know, so that it gave the audience one moment to see that mask before we put it on the character. And it's one of those things you probably don't even really notice it, but it's in there.

1:46:31So it's like, you know, part of the shot is a mask in the background and then the phone, and then you pull back and see you on the phone, and then it's the rest of the guys. And so, you know, like, I mean, maybe I also just didn't have a really good plan that morning, and I was just like, oh, yeah, yeah, let's just fucking do this. I asked you about it, and you said, like, well, you have it all storyboarded out anyway. And there were probably 15 different ways that he could have shot that. And being the director that he is, other people that I work with, and I work with some good people that are also similar.

1:47:06But most people come in and they know before I walk on this set, they know where I'm going to be and they know where their camera is going to be. And, you know, it just, OK, so I come in, I do my lines, try to do the best I can with the other actors. and there's a difference between that and exploring a scene from a filmmaking standpoint, from an acting standpoint, from a DP standpoint, where everybody's kind of like, you know, going in and saying, well, what if we put the camera, Michael, if you could take one step over this way, then we could make the camera work. And that is, to me, the most fun about making.

1:47:52That's why I get in my car, I drive in my set, get in the makeup chair, put the wardrobe on, walk out on the set. Usually wait four or five hours before I walk out on the set in my trailer. Because they always want me there at dawn to work at one in the afternoon. But come out. And it's that moment of collaborating with Adam, especially on this show. that is just like it's thrilling for me it's thrilling to be able to it's like being part of a painting you know and i like that you don't also like you don't actually go back to your trailer between shots michael just like hangs out like you know it's really funny because like when we you know first you know our first day working together it was like the it's like a big exposition scene so it was a very difficult scene we had a lot of pages and stuff and you know and there's a lot of like walking and talking and it was very complicated you know so it was kind of a hard scene to kind of like start you know a character off and a relationship and all that kind of stuff but it went really well but like uh you know once we did our first sort of blocking you know like we sent everybody away and um you know the crew starts going and you know mike is just like hanging out and like i look behind like a door and he's like sitting there and he's like sitting there like this like you know and i thought it was just like it was such a funny visual i have a photo of it too you know you're just hanging out but like he he likes to just hang out he doesn't leave the set ever um and i don't know were you always like that or no i wasn't always like that we used to have a lot more fun in my trailers and let's talk about that back in the day i find now um listen what I'm doing in my trailer is the same thing that I'll be doing two hours from now at home.

1:49:45I'll be sitting on my bed, like going like this on my phone, you know? Uh, and I, I like the energy of a crew. I like the crew to know that I'm interested in them and I kind of get to know them at the same time. I talk to them a little bit and I like them to know that I appreciate what they're doing and that I'm watching them. And, um, you know, it's like actors, like people watching them. And I, uh, I, I, and, and, and I'm genuinely interested in, okay, what's the shot going to be? Oh, he's got a camera here and he's got a camera here. Okay. Well, I'm going to walk behind this camera and see what, where he's at on this camera.

1:50:31And I'm going to walk behind this camera and then I'll talk to the guys. Is the camera going to move? and I get a better idea than just walking onto the set being an actor. I know more about what the shot is going to entail, what it's going to look like, what it's going to feel like, whether the camera's going to move. And I enjoy the camaraderie. You know, making a movie is a lot like being, I grew up playing sports. And, you know, we all want to win the Super Bowl and we're all playing to win the Super Bowl and everybody has a position. He's the coach. I might be the tight end. Dan might be one of the running backs.

1:51:17We've got linemen. And it's a team effort. And so I like to be out in the field, not in the locker room.

1:51:30Sean Fennessey:This has been great. The movie is a lot of fun. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. Have you guys seen anything recently? Well, I'll tell you, just out of, you know, I don't know if you call it great, but I have trouble finding movies, you know, and I've been around for so long that I've seen all the great movies like 10 times. But I'd seen, Adria had done a movie, With Glenn. Glenn Powell. Yeah. And I saw that and I'm like, okay, she's very sexy. And I think that was successful or whatever. Hitman, yeah. But I watched a movie called El Frico's, El Freaks.

1:52:15Do you know that movie? Oh, yes.

1:52:16Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's her film. Yeah. Fucking awesome. And I saw that when I met her and I didn't get a chance to talk to her. But I wanted to say, I saw this movie. She's on it as a producer. I have a feeling that movie wouldn't have got made if she wasn't. Yeah, very small film. Very small movie shot supposedly in Cuba. And, you know, if you're familiar with the movie, it's just a little tiny movie about people that were so desperate in Cuba that they would inject themselves with the HIV virus to, you know, get away from the sugarcane fields and the horrible life that they were living in the city. and uh she was great in it and uh uh she's there's a scene in you know this is the scene where she's chasing the car out her husband out i just love her and by the way like she is like phenomenal and uh and drew is fucking phenomenal he makes some like really interesting kind of like really interesting choices really interesting i saw the movie with a buddy and every time he showed up on screen we turned and looked at each other like this is the good shit yeah yeah loose freakies is the name of the movie that you're talking about yes yeah yeah and uh uh so i i've heard her talk about talking to adam i wasn't sure if i could do this i wasn't sure well in that movie at one point one of the young kind of star of the movie is lying about having uh hiv and she finds out about it and she just gets fucked and she goes fucking like she goes to her ex-husband in your movie yeah no you could she knew she could do that i'm looking at jason momoa taking pictures and i'm like i don't know i don't know how jason is you know she's she's she's she's a fiery uh spitfire he said she was just a pleasure to work with a lot of fun and everything but man i wouldn't want are mad at me.

1:54:23I've been lucky. I've had almost only good experiences with actors. I've only had one season actor that I work with that I had a bad experience with. Girl, come on. What are his initials? I'll tell you afterwards. So it is a man. It's funny with me. I'm always so far behind because I end up re-watching movies more than I watch new ones. Like, I just get obsessed with, like, repeat viewings, you know. And so, like, whenever I'm going to watch a new movie, it always feels more like I try to take as safe a bed as possible. Because I hate more than anything the feeling of, like, walking out of a movie and, you know, being disappointed or, like, bored during the film and that kind of stuff.

1:55:13But this year has been pretty good. Like, I really like Pillion. And I thought that was a really great experience. really like it I was the the ending really threw a curveball at me you know I was really what's pilling and see there's so much content I'd love for Adam to explain the premise of the movie to you it's like the scene with Rebecca Hall and Dan Stevens but like the gay version of that for like for two hours yeah it's pretty amazing it's like nothing I've really ever seen

1:55:41Sean Fennessey:it's actually pretty funny I mean it's like a it's like a romantic comedy it's like kind of sweet movie for a lot of it in a weird way it's called pillion yeah killian pillion like it's like the i guess it's a reference to like the seat on the back of like a motorcycle oh yeah that one and also back rooms i mean i loved obsessions uh you know or obsession and i love back rooms but like back rooms like i don't know i've always been obsessed with like the liminal space thing and so to see somebody do a movie on it it was i was like really you know like kind of blown away just like the visuals of it and um kind of jealous too you know because like I've always thought like oh you know if like like let's say like I retired today like I think the the the thought that I've always had is like I'd love to just get like a shitty um digital um camera from like 2002 and just like drive across the country and just like find liminal spaces and and like do a photo book of it or something because I just there's something so cool about that so you know I was really, really into that.

1:56:45And I was just, you know, it's been a cool year for horror and all that.

1:56:48Sean Fennessey:Right on. Michael, Adam, thank you so much for doing this. Yeah, thank you. Thanks to Adam and Michael. Thanks to CR. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh for his production support. I'm headed to Telluride. Amanda is already in Venice. When we get back, we will have our festival reports. We'll tell you all the movies we saw and what you should see. We'll see you then.

1:57:13Thank you.