‘The Devil Wears Prada 2’ and the Movies That Feel Like Our Lives

23:58Yes. But I could tell this person didn't care.

24:01Sean Fennessey:She even kind of resembles Emily Blunt. She does. And so the more that people watch it and thought about it, and I think also it's just an age thing. The older you get, you start to realize just how annoying Andy is and how much she has to learn. Well, you know... Can you please spell Gabana? I revisited the original film last week, and I don't have the same level of affection for it that you do. I think it's a very entertaining movie. I do think that there's a series of moments in the movie where I'm just like, this is just complete poppycock. And like maybe it is true to Lauren Weisberger's experience, but that joke, Can You Spell Gabbana, is like you would never, ever, ever get that job if you didn't know what that was.

24:40Sean Fennessey:Or if you did, then actually Anna Wintour is not as impressive a person as I thought she was. It just makes no sense. It's illogical in that world, which is so cutthroat. Don't you feel, though, maybe this is just getting older. Like every once in a while, don't you like interact with your own version of like, can you please spell Gabbana, you know, when you're working with people? and you're just like, come on. I do, but they're almost never proximate to power. That's true. There's something about the people who get to be in that inner sanctum, who get access to that kind of a person where like that person needs to be vetted.

25:12Sean Fennessey:They really need to be vetted. So the movie I find is like a little wobbly. The other thing that I find very wobbly about the movie, though with credit to this new movie, it follows through on some of it, is everything in Andy's personal life, I find to be like ridiculously overdrawn and silly. Sure. But it might inform some of like that core theme that I think you've always very smartly talked about, which is it's like a movie about being good at your job, right? And how like sometimes as a young person, you can be really drawn into the world of your work at the expense of other things because you realize how important it is and how it makes you feel alive and it gives you a sense of purpose.

25:44Sean Fennessey:These are... And you're ambitious too. Yes. In your own way. I completely relate to that. And I love that about the movie, but like the Adrian Grenier character and Rich Sommer and Tracy Toms' characters in the movie, I'm like, I don't... Those are not real people to me. They're like very poorly written characters. Well, Nate is very ambitious because he spends a week to make french fries you know which is actually an important skill too many frozen pre-frozen french fries on the market these days and as parents of young children of course we know how important that is but tracy thompson's character comes back into this movie actually it's pretty credibly i thought i was like yeah i buy that they stayed friends for 20 years despite the fact that she scolded her after simon baker gave her a kiss on the cheek some 20 years back past well sure i mean that was weird and i was i was explaining to you i haven't read the book in 15 years and the book is just okay.

26:26I think that both films improve on it. But there's a whole side plot with that character getting in a car accident or something and having a lot of personal problems that the Andy character doesn't really support. I guess in the book, she's maybe merged with the Emily character. But the point is that Andy is not a particularly good friend. That was translated in the movie into slut-shaming.

26:54Sean Fennessey:2006, Amanda. Did you relate to Andy? Did you feel close to Andy? So I saw this movie. This movie came out the summer after I graduated college and I was attending the Columbia Publishing course. Do you know what that is? I do, of course. Explain it to the listeners. Yeah, so it's essentially, it's a six-week sort of summer school slash, I mean, finishing school for lack of a better word. program for people who are interested in book and magazine publishing. And it primarily focuses on book publishing. And I think a lot of book editors go there. And in addition to teaching you how book publishing works, there's a lot of networking.

27:32And I guess it's like a field team or something. I was interested in magazines. And so I remember I left Columbia Publishing course early one day to go sit and see the Devil Wears Prada at 86th Street AMC, I believe, because it was closest. And then also as a part of the Columbia Publishing course, we got to meet Anna. So I remember deeply freaking out about what I was going to wear to meet Anna. I wore heels. I wore an actual outfit. Unlike Andy, I took it seriously and I knew the target that I was going for. But I think the idea that, oh, you're supposed to be an assistant at one of these magazines, like an apprenticeship, pay your dues for a couple years, and then you get to be the New York Magazine journalist writing amazing pieces was how I understood what was coming my way.

28:25So in that sense, yes, I absolutely did.

28:29Sean Fennessey:Do you relate to 2026, Andy Sachs? And maybe you should situate her. Sure. So it's funny, this movie is actually mostly about her, which is the other interesting choice. Good news for me. Well, listen, Anne Hathaway looks amazing. Every single outfit is dynamite, including the one that I purchased off of paparazzi photos and felt really good about. It did make it into the final cut. Is that the shiny blue dress? No, but you know what? I like that dress. One of the can dresses. Do you remember the gold dress that I bought in Vegas that I told you? I was like, this morning I got up and bought a dress on the real real.

29:06I didn't see it for sure. No, you didn't see it, but I told you that this was happening. Very similar, but gold instead of blue, but shiny. Great. So I felt really good about that. Thanks. Yeah. I'll be wearing that to the premiere of Paper Tigers. Could someone from Neon please get in touch? Anyway. We're going to be okay.

29:23Sean Fennessey:Don't worry. No, I know. So she looks great. But the movie starts with Anne Hathaway winning a journalism award. She works for a newspaper. And then she's laid off while accepting the award. Her entire newspaper team is because hedge funds are similar. Very familiar. similar structure to what happens in the real world and to journalists. And so she comes back to Runway because she needs a job because Runway needs some credibility after a bad journalism, after a journalism scandal. They've written a flattering piece about a company that uses sweatshops. And so she's there to figure her life out and save journalism.

30:06I sort of have my life figured out and I don't think I'm going to be able to save journalism. So I don't really identify with her that much. I think I admire her.

30:15Sean Fennessey:What about her emotional core? Where she doesn't, she loves her work more than her personal life, can't attach to anything and doesn't want a renovated building. Well, those are specific details about her life, but I think there's something very unusual about Andy where she's exceedingly confident and also completely falling apart at the same time. Yeah. And I just, just having to chat with my wife last night about that. And just, I feel like I encounter a lot of women in my life at this stage of my life. You think I'm falling apart? Not that's, that's unkind, but that there's like under siege, but powering through is a mark of just in the very limited experience of my life.

31:03Yeah.

31:03Sean Fennessey:And you know, It's called having it all. I know, I know. I'm asking you this because I'm kind of wondering will the people who grew up on this movie, who are very excited about this sequel, will the decision to actually make this movie very much about Andy's conflicts and her inability to kind of do certain things, but also her you know, she's clearly extraordinarily intelligent right and she's actually able to situate herself in this job that she has not a lot of training for in an environment where like how long did she really spend as Miranda's assistant in the film right three months six months how long are we supposed to believe that took place maybe a year okay and she's like you know still able to fall in love and and is very comfortable and confident in these high-end high market environments pretty quickly right but also has like a real kind of daffiness I think this is a great character for Anne Hathaway so I've never really been like, well, it's Miranda's movie.

31:56Sean Fennessey:I, of course, love Anne Hathaway as an actor. But I was happy that we spent so much time with Andy. It's the perfect balance for the Miranda character. And you need someone who, they both have it together in different ways. And they both have skills that the other doesn't. And that's why both movies end with, you know, a moment of reconciliation between the two of them in the back of a town car, which at least in Europe is still available to Miranda. Yes. Um, so I agree with you. I think that just when I watched this movie, I watch it for aspiration, not relatability. And so I'm drawn to the Miranda character, you know, and that's a little bit about how the first movie is also about fashion, which is the ultimate like aspirational business.

32:46And this is about Andy typing straight into the CMS, which stresses me out. Are people still, to are you typing into the CMS on Substack? You're not doing a Google Doc first?

32:56Sean Fennessey:I've done both thus far. The thing that, not that anyone cares, but the thing with the CMS at Substack is like once you just drop a YouTube link or a podcast link in there, it just instantaneously populates. And there's something very gratifying about that. Okay. Like visually while you're editing. So you understand the format. Yeah. I mean, that's cool. But publishing into the CMS, listen, I'm blogging one, I'm like 1.0. You can't be doing that. Look, I've been in many CMSs over the years. That's a content management system for those of you at home, which is effectively the tool used for publishing platforms.

33:27Sean Fennessey:And we've actually circled back to the ease of use of a blogger circa 2006. So I enjoy that about it. But this movie is so specific about things like that. It's so it is like no one knows what a CMS is. You know, 0.01 % of the population knows what that means. Like an entire generation of Tumblr kids knows what a CMS is because Tumblr was a CMS. Yes, they have certainly been inside of publishing platforms, but they don't call it that. Anyway, I... They do know what social pins are, though. So Miranda has to... What is a social pin? You don't know what a social... When you pin a post to the top of your...

34:03Oh, okay.

34:03Sean Fennessey:That's just called a social pin? I mean, of course I do that. I just didn't know it had a title. Okay. We're on the glacier now. One thing that you mentioned is that the first film did not have a lot of participation from the fashion community. and this film has a lot of participation clearly from Vogue and from the fashion community. Why do you think that is? Does the movie benefit in a meaningful way from that at all? I think the fashion community and Vogue are at this point kind of different beasts. There are a tremendous number of cameos of people who just want to be in the movie. Some of them fashion related, Marc Jacobs, Donatella Versace, La Roche, Heidi Klum, Naomi Campbell.

34:46The New York Times critic Vanessa Friedman is both name checked and then in profile.

34:51Sean Fennessey:Huge look. And then, you know, just people like Carl Anthony Towns. Love to see him. Kara Swisher. Yeah. And then the moment where I actually started physically hitting you in the middle of the screening. Tina Brown. My girl Tina is in Devil Wears Prada 2. And that's when I was really just like, I don't know what I'm going to do right now. I don't know how I'm going to handle this. That was Cap catching the hammer for you. You freaked the fuck out. I was, but I was also like, this is weird that things are so in the things in my mind are now on the screen and I'm pretty uncomfortable about it. Okay.

35:26Sean Fennessey:Have you met Aileen Brosh McKenna? I've wondered that. No, I've never met her. Okay. But I've been big admirer, morning glory forever. Tina wrote a great sub stack about the experience of being on the cameo, which was, which had great details, including that. You subscribed to her sub stack? Excuse me. Day one subscriber to Tina Brown's Substack. Fresh hell. Everybody get involved. Just asking? It's wonderful. Listen, Tina forever. Okay. All right. Simmer down. But I think some of the great details included that there wasn't enough food on the set. So then Kara Swisher organized a group delivery order.

36:09Sean Fennessey:They door dashed to a Hampton's estate? I believe so. I mean, the company in question was not named, but Kara Swisher did organize the order. What do you think they got? Jersey Mike's? Probably, yeah. And then also that Tina provided her own outfit, but then accessories were provided by the film in the costume department. She wasn't given any lines, unfortunately. She does talk about that. She says that she did her line so many times and was so bad at it. She was like, I understand why I'm silent. because I just, I couldn't do it. Acting is very hard. She also said that she was seated next to Carl Anthony Towns at the fake dinner and that she did not know who he was and then learned a lot about athletes' lives and how they can be traded at any moment.

36:53Oh my. It's really funny. She just learned that. She just learned that.

36:58Sean Fennessey:She employed Brian Curtis for years. That's so surprising. Yeah, well, I don't, I think they were talking about other things. That's probably true. First of all, shout out to Kat. He's been having a great series. Hopefully the Knicks triumph over the Hawks before. He's on the Knicks now. Cat, yeah, he's been on the Knicks for years. I didn't know that. This is his third season with the Knicks? Well, I thought he was great in this. I was happy to see him. Yeah, he just recently went on a double date with your boy, Timothee Chalamet and Kylie Jenner and his girlfriend, Jordan Woods. Oh, really? Yeah, I was just reading about this.

37:25After the game? It stresses me out. Well, either way, it stresses me out how often professional athletes are just like out late, even though the next day they need to use, you know they need to be in fit physical condition yeah it does

37:41Sean Fennessey:given the way he's been performing in this series I don't want to I don't want to who am I to know but it was nice to see him it was nice Jenna Bush Hager was in this movie there were a ton of people who got like one line right and it similarly has that comic book movie feel of like all your faves are all together at this one fun party felt a little cheap to me though you know in the way that these things often feel cheap I agree and it was a real like now this is this is a sequel we got to do something everyone wants to be a part of this so we'll farm it out. I think that the cheapest part of it is that there's a Lady Gaga performance as well as a cameo at the event that they host in Milan that is sort of like, I guess it's akin to an Italian Met Ball.

38:25And which does often have a pop star major performance. I'm sure Lady Gaga has been the chair of the Met Ball at least once.

38:32Sean Fennessey:What does one do as the chair? You put your name on a lot of things and then you get photographed. Can I tell you who two of the chairs of the upcoming Metfall, which is on Monday, the first day in May, are? Sure. They are Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez. Oh, interesting. So that is pretty interesting given the portrayal of Jeff Bezos or the Jeff Bezos-esque character in this movie. You know, we're in full spoiler territory here, but there is a kind of Lauren Sanchez-esque character in the movie as well, and it's a character we know. Yes. Spoiler, I guess. Yes, her name is Emily, played by Emily Blunt, who now is an executive at Dior.

39:09And Dior features prominently. She is shown chastising Miranda Priestly for the legitimately bad journalism and then extracting the price of several free ad pages and a feature story about the store opening, which I really wonder how everyone at Dior and Louis Vuitton LVMH feels.

39:32Sean Fennessey:Yeah, let me ask you this, ball knower. Does that happen in real life? I don't know if it happens at that level. I know that... That is something that was oft rumored when I was working at Condé Nast across many publications, but certainly never confirmed because it's a decision that's made at the absolute highest level. Sure. I mean, no one ever told me, yeah, this ad page was free. You know, we all know that advertisers have to be featured in fashion spreads in certain ways. And I think the companies have had like an increasing amount of say. There's now in vogue, at least, what's called a full look.

40:05commitment, which is that you can't mix and match as they do in that famous Cerulean speech in the first episode. You have to wear head to toe Dior or Prada or et cetera, even in an editorial. I don't know whether that happens specifically. I feel pretty confident that LVMH, the conglomerate that owns Dior, is not thrilled about the portrayal of anything. And there's also a new, very cool, very movie-invested designer, Jonathan Anderson, who has done the costumes for some Luca Guadagnino movies, who now runs Dior. Wondering how he's feeling about that. Seems like this was all inked and scripted before he came on board.

40:47But yes, so Emily, in addition to being a corporate fashion person, is now also dating the Jeff Bezos character and helps Andy plot a takeover of runway which Andy thinks is going to be to protect Miranda and then it turns out to be so that Emily, the Emily Blunt character can be in charge of runway. So, but there, she dresses not, she wears more Dior but she dresses not unlike Lauren Sanchez does and is portrayed in a similar way. I mean they even talk about how the Jeff Bezos character, I can't remember his actual name, has had like a real physical transformation and all of his workouts. It's really, really very specific.

41:39And in the meantime, Vogue, the magazine, is going to have them like on the steps of their quote unquote biggest night of the year on Monday. I wonder if there will be any phone calls. Vogue's decision to embrace this is fascinating to me and makes sense. And it's just really about how Vogue and Connie Ness have no power anymore. And I think that, so there's a new American editor, Chloe Mal, who's been doing a lot of this work and I think she's been very savvy and just knows that it will be a big thing and that it'll kind of up the profile of Vogue at a time when it really needs that. But it's a real balance of powers has shifted situation.

42:17Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Which the movie then confirms, which is what's so fascinating. It's a really unique document of the real life echoing the movie, echoing the real life. Yeah. I I The other interesting thing About that Power dynamic Is that it certainly feels Like this movie Is going to be a huge hit Yeah And the screening That we went to Was quite interesting Uh huh It was like It was Barbenheimer For cool moms You know Like there were Thank you More More ladies In that screening Mm-hmm Than I can recall In any press screening In Los Angeles Ever Correct Um Also significantly More stylish Yes People in that screening Yeah I don't know You can talk about it In some detail A lot of people wearing red, which has been established as the signature color of the press tour.

43:02And it's what Anne Hathaway and Meryl Streep and then Emily Blunt and Stanley Tucci, when they joined, have been wearing on this really extended and to me Barbie-esque press tour. Margot Robbie was on the road for weeks in various Barbie inspired outfits, which I thought was very clever and playing to an audience that is not usually marketed to in movies, but that both films really deliver to. So they did a lot. We had a lot of people in red, lots of good bags. I think bags are not dead. Is that something that's been discussed? Yeah, there is. Bags are dead. Yeah, that people don't want, you know, the fancy like, ooh, the new Marc Jacobs.

43:41That's a Devil Wears Proud of One reference.

43:43Sean Fennessey:Okay. that you either need a laptop bag or a tiny bag. I'm going to go the other way. I'm post-laptop and I have a new normal bag that I like. You're sitting in front of a laptop. Yeah, but that's when I'm here. Okay. Got to be careful when you say you're post-something when you're using that thing actively. It's a state of mind. Yeah, I'd love to be post-laptop, unfortunately. Anyway, there were not a lot of laptop bags at this screening. There were a lot of bag bags. No. Well, thankfully, no one was using their laptop during the screening. I I thought that was quite fascinating it felt like there was maybe some more yeah influencer invites you know shout out to the AMC Burbank 16 my true my one true home yeah I thought it was indicative of the fact that there's more opportunity to do this kind of thing for this audience and then not every movie is The Devil Wears Prada and it doesn't loom as large as most movies don't loom as large as that movie does and it's not as marketable yeah Are you aware of all the tie-ins?

44:43Like, are you?

44:43Sean Fennessey:No, but I mean, that makes sense. Of course. Yeah, of course it makes sense. It's like Star Wars for professional women. But it is a little surprising when to suddenly be on the other side of it. And, you know, Juliette Lippmann was talking about how she was on the GE website because she needs a new appliance. And there's a Devil Wears Prada GE. She was shopping for an appliance from GE's website? I think she was just looking at the options. and some of the options were featured in the Devil Wears Prada too, which was noted on the website. So, you know, and there is like a very literal like 30 Rock vibe to that.

45:17But it also makes sense. Also, as soon as she said that, I was like, oh, I know where the appliances were. They were in the flip of the, you know, the new apartment. And it wasn't totally tacky the way it was included.

45:30Sean Fennessey:Let's talk about that strain of the story. Sure, Colin from Accounts. That was Colin from Accounts. Yeah, I've not seen that show. I know that's a show, but I haven't seen that show. Who is that person? So Colin from Accounts is the name that I don't know his actual name. I'm scrolling. Where is it? Let's go. Patrick Bramall, a.k.a. Colin from Accounts, who is the contractor who renovated a beautiful building on Henry Street, the corner of Henry and Amity. I know because they were filming there when I was there visiting my sister-in-law, Ruthie, last summer. And they showed Knox some of their cameras.

46:06They were very nice. Thank you to everyone in the Devil Wears Prada 2 set. So he's renovated this building. And Andy goes to see it because she has enough resources to buy a luxury building despite being an out-of-work newspaper journalist turned features editor at Runway, which just 20 years later, just being a features editor, that's tough in the era of title inflation

46:34Sean Fennessey:let's not scold Andy Sachs please okay but I just I want more for her she's a hard-bitten journalist who's telling real stories in the real world yeah I'm just saying that's tough for her so she goes how high up on the masthead do you think she was at runway when she got that gig what do you mean like oh how high up is features editor yeah so as I haven't looked at Vogue's masthead in a while but I do think that I guess features comes before well I don't know maybe they do it I don't know I don't know where it is not that high maybe it's a maybe it's a side by side situation where the the story journalists are over here and the fashion team is over here no it's always been that the fashion team is just so much bigger and then the beauty team and then you've got like all the online stuff I assume that they've renovated this over time okay um but she's not in the top grouping you know like with the editor-in-chief or global content, whatever, creative director, so-and-so.

47:34And I just think 20 years later, I want more for her. Anyway, she can afford this apartment. So she goes to see it. She says that she likes old things instead of new things in the world's most obvious metaphor. And she says it directly to the contractor himself. But it counts as a meet-cute. And so they start a very innocuous relationship that is just fine until she yells at him for no reason and goes to Milan. Okay, I guess.

48:08Sean Fennessey:Did you want more for Andy's life in this movie? Well, I saw paparazzi photos of her filming outside Long Island Bar, which is two blocks from the building in question and a great Brooklyn establishment. and I wanted Long Island Bar in the film and it was cut. And I assume she went there with this guy, Colin from Accounts. What was his real name in the movie? Couldn't tell you. Peter? Okay, good luck to him. Yeah, sure. He seemed nice. Yeah. But I don't care about her personal life. You do. What did you want for her? I wanted her to realize all her hopes and dreams. Okay. I'm rooting for her. Don't you think she is?

48:46Sean Fennessey:Nope. No. I don't think so. Okay, what? I think she was fired from a dream job because an industry collapsed and she was dragooned for financial and quieted personal ambition reasons to return to her origin story and try to make good on it. She was very happy to have some success in that space and reconnect with some people. But by the same token, the movie is a slightly cynical about it's kind of the inverse of the original where the original is like goodbye to all that. What I don't need are these, you know, this accoutrement of lifestyle to feel like a real person. And I assume that that's kind of the core theme of the book as a person, as an author who abandoned that space to go pursue what she really wanted to do.

49:33But the movie is sort of like, this new movie is like, actually, it is kind of great to be at the seat of power and to look beautiful and to be styled just so. But are they at the seat of power by the end?

49:47Sean Fennessey:Close enough. Or are they working together? It's more of like a found family movie, which is silly. This is actually your Guardians of the Galaxy. They're all there together at the end. And she even has this lunch with Emily where Emily is like, I really wanted to be friends. Which, what? That's the second biggest sin of the movie. Just a completely false note. Completely false. I love Emily Blunt too. So I was like, I'll roll with this. But not a real. It's tough that it's so hard to get her. In the same frame as all of these people, which is always a sequel problem, right? Because characters would have moved on.

50:20But yeah, it didn't make sense. But it does feel like the movie, and it's probably just because of that like sequel mandate that we have to get them all back together. That the reason we want to get them back together is because they all want to be together. Right.

50:34Sean Fennessey:You know? Can't Andy just try to go work at the New York Times or the Atlantic? Like, why are we pretending like it makes any sense for her to go work at Vogue? You're right. But even that is revealed as it's revealed later in the movie that it was Stanley Tucci's character, Nigel, who suggested that she be hired because she's always been his number one. And that's really meaningful to her. Had they spoken to one another in 20 years? I don't think so. That's a bit curious. And also unrealistic. So I agree with you. But the movie really does seem to this is why I'm like, it's kind of a Gen Z movie.

51:10It's about that. It's all forcing them together to be like, we love each other. Okay.

51:13Sean Fennessey:Gen Z loves when you speak for them. I've learned that that's something they really enjoy.

51:42dot com slash health. Apple Watch is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice.

51:50Sean Fennessey:Any other thoughts? You want to make any box office predictions for this movie? No, I want to do things that I learned about the Devil Wears Pride of the Universe that I didn't know. Fire away. Number one, Miranda drinks rosé, which it does, but I'm not sure I expected to see a scene of Miranda Priestly in the Hamptons and they've recreated Anna Wintour's Mastic estate, pretty faithfully, according to at least photographs that I've seen. We're in deep cut territory here. And so she's just in the kitchen pouring rosé and telling Andy about her ambitions. Two things I never really expected to see happen.

52:29Also, in that scene, the third false note of the movie, she's wearing pumas? Okay. No.

52:36Sean Fennessey:I thought you wrote down Stan Smith's. Was it actually pumas? Yeah, I investigated it. And because it had it had the little like blue back on that. But they were flatter and smaller. So I think they're Pumas. OK. It went pretty quickly. If they if they were Stan Smith's, would you feel differently? But they weren't as chunky as Stan Smith's. Stan Smith's. They have like the very, very narrow profile. That doesn't answer my question. If they were Stan Smith's, would you feel differently? I don't really feel that Miranda is wearing sneakers to host 20 to 30 luminaries for a lobster lunch in the Hamptons.

53:11I personally think that there would be a sandal. Okay. Probably an Hermes sandal. Anyway. And as our friend Molly, who came to the screening with us, turned to me and said, I guess we all have to wear ties now.

53:26Sean Fennessey:That was funny. Yeah. Which I thought was a really great observation by Molly. Thank you for coming. Also, to speak to the event of it all, Molly turned down attending a... Not turned down, but she was supposed to go see Devil Wears Prada 2, I believe with a book club, and was already coming to see it with me. I have another friend who's like, well, I have tickets at this time. There's a real people are making plans, reservation group quality to this movie that I have not seen since Barbie. So to your point, I don't think it's going to be Barbie big, but I think it's going to be really big. What does that look like to you?

54:04Sean Fennessey:Have you looked at the tracking? Well, I know that it's tracking for$180 million globally on the opening weekend. Okay. That's quite good. That's quite good. I mean, what numbers do you want? Do you want what I think domestic opening weekend? I guess I'd be curious to know where this movie lands. I didn't really do like a legacy sequels comp thing here, but, you know, what are some recent ones? Blade Runner 2049, Mad Max Fury Road, and Furiosa. Right. You know, we've got the social reckoning coming out later this year. Yeah. It's obviously something that's going to be happening more and more, where I think, especially for grownups, that this is a way to kind of feed a quasi-prestigious crowd, but also serve...

54:44Sean Fennessey:Right. You know, just that childlike brain of, I know what that is, I like that. So I'm quite fascinated by how this movie does. I think it'll also have pretty broad international appeal. because of the world of fashion and taking place in Europe. Yes. And because I think these are high profile characters and they've also, I mean, they have been serving it everywhere. It has been a very international strategy, smartly, I think. Okay. Will it cross$500 million worldwide? That would make it pretty damn big. Maybe? Okay. Kind of fascinating. So, I mean, this dovetails into the conversation I want to have about Myelin Kicks.

55:28Sean Fennessey:Okay. But it is something that I have been thinking about quite a bit. A few years back when the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie came out, the animated movie that Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg produced, they wrote this long, emotional letterboxd review about it coming for us, so to speak. You know, these remnants of our youth kind of starting to echo deeply in ways that seem cynical but are also very personal. Like that animated Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie had a couple of musical cues, a couple of gags in it that felt like it was really scratching something very personal. Which seems silly, but you very eloquently illuminated for an hour all of the ways in which this movie kind of tapped into or failed to tap into certain aspects of your personality and your experiences as a person or how you aspire to things and how that maybe let you down over time.

56:19and we're in this rich moment because of our age and because of the state of the movie business

56:25Sean Fennessey:where like this is going to keep happening. We're going to keep having feelings like this. There are plenty of movies over the years where you see something personal happen to a character and you connect to it. Like I vividly recall with ease the dinner table sequence in Boyhood where they're seated with their new stepfather or mom's boyfriend and I'm like that's just like a chilling movie moment for me to watch that and to feel that and to think about the characters at that table. But this is different. This is like, there's something mechanized about this that also still kind of gratifies us.

57:02Sean Fennessey:And I'm trying to get my arms around the feeling. Do you mean mechanized in the sense that it is so, I mean, it is so big and broad and certainly corporate and the number of tie-ins and they're, you know, they made a fake runway magazine that they've been handing out at CinemaCon and oh, oh, it's here. Yes. Hello. Hello, Emily Charlton. And, you know, at the screenings and respectfully, it's not a very good magazine. You know, they've done tie-in articles. The Lucy Luke character is in there. The ads that are inspired by the original memes are much better than the, you know, Yeah, it does have like a fake orchestrated quality to it, which has been the source of most of my anxiety about this movie.

57:51I got to be honest, I feel fine on this one. I mean, it's a little strange. And with respect to GE, I'm not going to go buy a new appliance. I don't need a new appliance right now. Yep. And most of the tie-ins and the merch and the marketing stuff just has not really been for me. But the fact that it's considered valuable enough to spend all that time on it, and it does mean that more time and money was spent on the thing itself. And so I get to have a fun time watching something as opposed to that money and time and all that marketing stuff being spent on a bunch of things I don't care about.

58:33Sean Fennessey:Right. It's a new sensation, but I'm okay. If it were really bad, I would obviously feel differently, but it's not. Yeah, it's not really bad. It is a little bit duplicative at times, and it also is a little bit of a downer at times. Yeah. But it's very watchable and entertaining in a way that you don't usually expect from a movie like this. You know, I think this movie has a kind of like action figures quality for you and a lot of the things that you enjoy where it keeps popping up. And most of the movies that I'm referring to are about totems of my youth, comic book characters. This in June will have Masters of the Universe.

59:06Sean Fennessey:Right. My own kind of personal, I don't know about anxiety, but just kind of like that personal cringe of like, oh, this is a thing I loved. And now it's being made for people 40 years later. There's something very odd about that sensation. But this movie, Mile End Kicks, to me is probably the closest that I'll get to the feeling that you have with The Devil Wears Proud. Right. where Chandler Levesque wrote and directed this movie that is clearly very autobiographical about her experience working in the world of music journalism and working for music magazines. Like me, she worked for Spin for a period of time.

59:42She went back to Canada and worked for local music magazines

59:46Sean Fennessey:and reviewed records. And her character in this film, played by Barbie Ferreira, attempts a 33 and a third book. I never wrote one of those, but I certainly thought about it. and I certainly thought it was important to write one. Who would you have wanted to do? Well, that's a generous question.

1:00:04I think probably...

1:00:10Sean Fennessey:Check Your Head by the Beastie Boys. I think it would have been interesting. We can talk about it for forever. I know what a shameful moment that was. There's any number of interesting albums I would have liked to have spent time on. But, you know, this movie is like, it's Francis Hott meets Almost Famous. It's a very personal coming of age story about a young woman trying to find love, trying to be professionally successful, obsessed with music, obsessed with the culture of music. But then the closer you get to it, the more you realize that the people that are inside of that world can be kind of shitty, can take advantage of you, can treat you poorly.

1:00:45Sean Fennessey:I didn't have the exact same experiences that the Barbie Ferreira character had. I'm obviously not a woman. But to see music journalism circa 2011 and like kind of like the shithole career that that was, you know, the way that you were paid for things, the things that you got so excited about, getting free CDs, going to go to a show. At the time, I was having the time of my life. I made all my best friends during that period of my life. I, to this day, love music and think about it all the time. But it also shows just kind of like how dingy all that is and how it's the opposite of the Devors product where there's no glamour.

1:01:23True. Yes. And you find yourself just standing around cubicles with groups of men trying to get a word in edgewise. And that doesn't happen. I saw a lot of myself in this movie, even though I never worked specifically at music magazines. I worked at various websites and more general interest magazines. But, you know, I knew that's when I met all of you guys, was kind of at the tail end of that time when you were growing up. And it was incredibly familiar from the perspective of being the young woman who doesn't have things figured out in this world and has a lot of interests. But her interests are similar, but not the same as all the men.

1:02:03She gives a great speech at the end that really, really spoke to young and old Amanda just, you know, the ways in which you have to feign interest in what's considered quote unquote cool. And then you have all these other things on the side that, you know, basically like aren't acceptable for the canon. Which is true. Devil Wears Prada being one of them. So, you know, it's a full circle moment. and now this is Devil Wears Prada is finally being accepted even though it's for girl stuff. I thought it was very, very charming. Is there really not a 33 and a third on Jagged Little Pill?

1:02:38Sean Fennessey:I don't know. I haven't checked out. I just Googled and I can't find it. Yeah, that is the Alanis Morissette album is the one that Barbie Friar's character wants to write and plans to write and then things happen along the way. I think I had very similar experiences. I'm not sure how much I like feigned my taste per se, but I certainly felt very intimidated in those circles. In 2000, in the summer of 03, I was an intern at Spin. And that was a very, to me, a very hallowed period of time at that magazine because of all the people that worked there. Many of whom people know, you know, Chuck Klosterman was working there at the time.

1:03:17Sean Fennessey:Sia Michael was the editor-in-chief. Karen Gans, who's at the New York Times now. Alex Papadimus, like David Itzkoff, like John Dolan, Charles Aaron, who I idolized. like a ton of magazine writers and editors who knew I thought everything about everything and whose taste was superlative. And I was really, really intimidated. And I'm really, I have no shortage of ego, but I really didn't know how to talk to, I was afraid to talk to those people. And I wish I had spent more time talking to them. It's like very, I always think of it as very fortunate that later in life, I got to be friends with Chuck and got to know him.

1:03:50Sean Fennessey:Um, cause I, I just loved his writing so much in the way that he thought about things, but I completely related to the experience that that character is having in that way. And that sense of like, how do I contribute in any way that makes me useful? Which is such an insecure feeling, but is a very real feeling when you're in these scenarios and you're a young person and you don't know if you totally have anything to add. And then you get older and you do a couple of things for yourself that you feel happy about and you kind of like shed a lot of that anxiety. So it was really interesting to talk to Chandler as somebody who clearly has like figured out who she wants to be, or at least in part like what she wants to be doing with her time and is not afraid to just say like, I just said out loud that I like things I didn't like.

1:04:33Sean Fennessey:And, you know, there's a certain modicum of bravery and honesty about doing that that I really appreciated. There is also a romantic subplot in this one that unlike Devil Wears Prada 2 is perfectly handled and recognizable and like archetypal in a way, but also specific and funny and you're rooting for it to resolve in the right way. I really, really dug this. I was very charmed by it. Stanley Simons plays the lead singer of the fictionalized Canadian indie band. And, you know, I guess this is around the time of like, clap your hands, say yeah, maybe. Like that era of indie pop rock. And that guy is giving one of the most accurate performances I've ever seen.

1:05:15Sean Fennessey:That is a dude I knew. It is so funny. That is a guy who is in bands that I covered. And he's really, really, really funny. The other thing too, I mentioned this in the physical media High Council episode that is coming later this month. But Juliette Gorepi, the actress from Red Rooms is in this playing a completely different person. And I was like, who the fuck is that? She can also be like this. She's kind of doing a Julie Delpy kind of quality to her character that I really enjoyed. I really like this movie. You know, I really enjoyed Roommates as well. I don't know if you got a chance to see that.

1:05:46I haven't seen this yet.

1:05:46Sean Fennessey:Okay. this is the other movie that Chandler directed which is stars Sadie Sandler Adam Sandler's daughter and Chloe East from the Fablemans and Heretic who an actress I have stock in very goofy Happy Madison movie just told with female characters instead of older male characters about two girls who become roommates at college and seem like they're going to be best friends forever and then maybe clearly they're not and what happens from there I found it very enjoyable and it was like really cool hearing Chandler talk about the ways in which she got the opportunity to do that and the relationship that she now has with Adam Sandler, of all people.

1:06:19Sean Fennessey:So I hope people check that out.

1:06:46Apple Watch is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice.

1:07:16Sean Fennessey:restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Out. Very quickly, the state of music criticism. Yeah, good, bad. Thumbs up, thumbs down. No idea. Where are you? No, I haven't been reading a lot of it. I respect people who do it. Yeah. It's some of the hardest easy work you can do. I think it's quite hard. It was never on my aspiration board, you know? It's pretty tricky. I'm relieved to not be thinking about it too much. You think I should write about music in the newsletter? I think you should write about whatever you want to write about. Are you glad to be writing again? That's the other way in which I don't relate to Andy.

1:07:54She's just like up all the time writing. And I was like, no, no, no.

1:07:57Sean Fennessey:Well, I do love that feeling. Not for me. Yeah. I'm happy for you. It's so hard, which it sounds like the whiniest thing ever when writers talk about this because it's like, well, don't do it. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. Quite literally how I feel. And I understand that. But there is something specifically, even with this new experience that I'm having, where when something is published, it's tremendously gratifying in a way that this can't be, in a way that other stuff I do professionally can't be. Okay. So I'm liking that part of it. I'm glad. Which is kind of how I felt, you know, when I was writing in 2006.

1:08:31I need you to be doing more things that you feel happy and gratified by. And, you know, less threatening to move to the Mosquito Coast. So let's just get to a place where we're enjoying what we're doing.

1:08:43Sean Fennessey:Part of the Mosquito Coast thinking is like, this is something I can do from the Mosquito Coast. Okay. You know what I mean? I don't need anything else to do that. Do they show movies with the regularity that you see them? Maybe not, but I have 5 ,000 movies at home. Okay, right. Have you considered that? You're going to get them, what, I can't even, coming up soon on the High Council, some AV guy insights to be shared. Wow, no spoilers. Yeah. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with Chandler Levesque.

1:09:16Sean Fennessey:The very first time Chandler Levesque is here with not one but two feature films. We're going to talk about both of them. But I watched Mile End Kicks first because I am also a recovering music journalist. And this is a very interesting, sometimes very sad vocation. and I think you captured some of the sadness in that vocation in your film. Just tell me a little bit about why you pursued that line of work before you started becoming a film director. Yeah, I mean, you were kind of my ideal audience for the movie. I was like, what is Sean Fennessey going to think of this film? And then you just posted on Letterboxd one word uncanny.

1:09:55Sean Fennessey:Well, it is. I mean, it is like eerily accurate, both in terms of, I think, the perspective of the characters, the scene, and just the general angst in the relationships. I thought you got all that stuff so right. Yeah, because I think you were writing for Spin when I was interning there under the great Charles Aron. Yes. And Kyle Anderson. One of my earliest mentors. God, the coolest person. Just the smartest guy ever, yeah. Of all time, a great writer. And so, yeah, I certainly idolized you and Chuck Klosterman and all the roster at the time. Don't put me in that league, please. I was a lowly 20-something back then.

1:10:30Phoebe Reilly. And there's so many great writers. Karen Gantz.

1:10:34Sean Fennessey:You have nice tributes to various music writers in your film, actually. Yeah, I have little Easter eggs. I love that. Yeah, I mean, other than Almost Famous, I don't think it's a profession that gets memorialized in cinema that much. Probably because it's something that seems glamorous, but is actually just you kind of like hunched over a laptop looking despondent, like seeing if your editor will acknowledge your invoice that you have been asking for for a month and a half um and you know I think I imprinted on Almost Famous when I was 15 and I just like was like how do I live in the movie forever okay well I'll just become the main character and so um as soon as I and then it was at the same time that I was like I saw the strokes on the cover of Spin Magazine in Blockbuster and I was like how how is this on the cover of Magazine like I thought I only knew about this band.

1:11:24And so I bought the magazine and there was a huge excerpt from Chuck Klosterman's book, Sex, Drugs and Cocoa Puffs. And so I immediately got that book. And then I was like, I want to be a pop culture critic. Like, I didn't even know this was a job that existed, but like, this is what I want to be. And so I emailed Chuck and I was like, I read your book and it completely changed my life. How do I like have your job? And he was like, instead of being like leave me alone he was like well you should start writing for your school newspaper and he said this really beautiful thing that I'll never forget that was like and also like don't worry about what's cool like everyone thinks that like this was 2005 so everyone thinks that like Paul Banks from Interpol is like the arbiter of cool right now but like journalism isn't about telling people what's cool it's just about like saying what you like it's all about your own critical taste in your authority.

1:12:15And so that really like galvanized me and kind of set me on this path where I'm like 16 reading like Mystery Train in the back room of Blockbuster while like eating a pizza sub and just getting obsessed with popular culture. And then, yeah, I followed Chuck's advice and immediately started writing for my school newspaper, the Ennis Herald. And by the time we met like two years later, I was like an intern at Spin.

1:12:41Sean Fennessey:So we have eerily similar paths. Yes. Joker origin stories. Sort of. Yeah. I mean, I was on Chuck's desk as an intern at Spin in 03. Wow. When he was out reporting what became Killing Yourself to Live, his book. Oh yeah, that's crazy. So I never interacted with him at that time. He's now a good friend of mine. but at the time I also really really looked up to him and he really I really loved what he was doing the way that he was kind of like colliding pop culture yeah he was the thing that you just said the advice that he gave you that's so resonant because I feel like it took me a long time to really actually achieve that like get comfortable with my own taste and talk about what I thought was good and why I thought it was good and I feel like I've read you talk about this a little bit around this film and and in general this like anxiety of wanting to have like the right opinion and then getting comfortable with what you feel like is the real opinion.

1:13:35Sean Fennessey:And I feel like Barbie's character in the film too does a really good job of sort of like knowing when it's time to try to fit in, but then also having this like voice inside of her of like, here's what I really like and here's who I really am. I want to hear you talk about that a little bit. Yeah, and the movie is kind of about taste and like how much I think the canon of like movies and music were kind of shaped by my male colleagues who were like men in their 40s in like Hold Steady t-shirts. Yeah, yeah. And me at the time when I was like literally 21 years old, you know, as a staff writer for this, this Alt Weekly in Toronto, like thinking that I was their peer.

1:14:08And like now realizing now that I'm like almost the same age as those guys, like, no, I was like a dog that could like walk on its hind legs that had like cute, fun opinions about like, I don't know, Perubu or something. And I didn't know the bands they were talking about. And I didn't care about Bellatar movies. but like I felt like if I learned all the right like nouns and verbs then then they would they would kind of welcome me into their their inner circle yeah it's like a secret society a little bit where you want to feel like you're of weird guys in fedoras yeah and why did we look up to

1:14:39Sean Fennessey:them so much I don't know I don't some of them are like are people that I really care about but some of them too I was like why did I why was I interested in that person's opinion in any way when they don't we didn't actually didn't have that much in common even though we were pursuing theoretically the same thing. Yeah. And it seems like that's, you were kind of like writing through that idea too. Totally. I mean, I remember Chuck saying something, I don't remember where, but he said something about how like all criticism is autobiography ultimately. And how like when you have an opinion about an album or a movie, it's like you are, you know, asserting like how that relates to you at that definite point in your life.

1:15:15And I think because I was like a really messy woman in my like early 20s, I was a lot of the time like using the Passion Pit CD to talk about the like 30 year old stand up comedian who had just broken up with me for the fourth time. It was like this weird venting tool or something or mechanism. And, you know, both being kind of like rewarded for that by my editors, but then also kind of scolded for like at what point did my writing feel too like feminine or self-indulgent. And so it made me feel like extremely confused.

1:15:48Sean Fennessey:It's not always the most lucrative line of work. You get paid in CDs sometimes. Which I love, just as I love being paid in film screenings now. But so can you just tell me like how you made the pivot out, like how you decided to pursue filmmaking and maybe not spend your time as a cultural critic? Yeah, I mean, I think it was really getting let go from the alt-weekly. and then living in Montreal for the summer in 2011. It was kind of like the first choice I ever made kind of that wasn't like a professional decision. You know, I've been this like young professional for so long since I was 18, like writing for the Village Voice and Spin and, you know, always with my little like notepad at the back of the show, like waiting to interview Sharon Jones with my dad there.

1:16:34And then she'd be like, do you want to smoke weed? And I'd be like, I can't. My dad's here. Even though my dad probably would have been cool with it. and like rushing back to the office to, you know, write the story at three in the morning before my deadline. Like it was just how I lived my life for like eight years and everything else like became secondary to that. And then when I moved to Montreal in 2011, it was like the first time that I actually realized that I was like a young person and suddenly got immersed in this incredible scene of these like underground, you know, shows that like DIY warehouses were like the birth of all of these incredible bands, like Mac DeMarco and Grimes and Topps were just starring.

1:17:14And I was like, oh, wow, like I can have friends that are the same age as me. I can like party all night and I don't have to like write an article about it. I can just like experience things.

1:17:27Sean Fennessey:So how do you go beyond that into like writing I love movies and or I like movies and I, you know, want to make movies professionally? I think it was just like something I'd repressed for so long. And it was really kind of, I think, a collision of seeing Lena Dunham make Girls and watching that like it was kind of my film school and realizing it was the first time that I was the same age as someone who was making art on such a public stage and her voice and like tone as a filmmaker I like so desperately connected to. and then I think um Greta Gerwig also making um Lady Bird I would like watch the promotional video of her like being like now kiss her kiss and I just would like weep unexpectedly and I didn't know why and so I think it it kind of felt like I think I've said this before but the way that like other women know they're ready to have a baby like I was just like I need to make a coming of age film like it's like my biological clock is like ticking and so um you know I'd gone to film school at the University of Toronto but I just like had completely redirected my focus and like dropped out of school and then I had my last class to graduate was this um screenwriting class that was taught by Patricia Rosema who's a legendary um Canadian director made this incredible movie I've heard the mermaid singing that's like was one of the maybe the first female um Canadian film to ever go to Cannes.

1:18:54And, um, semi-cellus who ended up writing like all the best Mad Men episodes, like the suitcase. And, um, it was just like a total hero of mine. And, and so they, I, yeah, for the class, you had to write a feature screenplay. And I think my years of like, as you can probably relate to like, um, writing profiles about people and kind of investigative features, like that's sort of the backbone, I think, for a lot of screenwriting, you know, you get 10 minutes with someone and you have to tell the entire story of their life based on like a you know 10 minute call in uh like conversation at tiff in like a conference room or something

1:19:29Sean Fennessey:um done it many times yeah i always feel bad i'm like this is not accurate but this is all you've given me so how do i do my best with it army hammer let's go yeah i read you had an interesting chat with him yeah you know i i remained intact you're safe you're safe now um but but yeah it was just um i think it just was the first thing that like made sense for my brain and I totally fell in love with screenwriting and just the structure of it and stuff. And then after that, they said I should apply to the Canadian Film Center, which is Norman Jewison's film school, kind of like what AFI is in the States.

1:20:04Sean Fennessey:Okay. And then, yeah, it was the first time I like ever saw a camera. And I wrote three scripts that got, you know, immediately produced and I got to be involved in all the sort of casting conversations and be on set for it. And I think I was so like bossy and opinionated about stuff that it was clear that I, it was kind of like, I was like, oh, I should be a director because I have like too many thoughts about stuff. What year was this? 2012. Okay. And? And then I started making music videos after that. Ah. So that was kind of like really the origin for this incredible punk band, Pup. Yes. With Jeremy Shalemrio, who was someone I met at the CFC.

1:20:45And we were dating at the time. I'm using the editor's program. So we kind of came together and made like eight or 10 music videos. But at the same time, I felt like I just had never made anything that was like honestly my true voice.

1:20:58Sean Fennessey:So I've had, you know, Sophie was on the show recently. Yeah. And Matt was on the show earlier this year. And I'm really interested in like how you can raise funds to make movies in Canada. And if that's specifically how you've been pursuing it, I suspect Roommates was a little bit different. But at least for your first two features, like can you just kind of talk me through a little bit? how that works and how you are able to accomplish something that often, at least in America, feels very, very hard to do. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting talking to like American independent filmmakers because your whole process of just getting rich people to give you money seems equally bananas.

1:21:31Yeah. I mean, it's kind of weird that the Canadian government like gives artists funds to make films. But I also think it's like we're so, so lucky. And I think the last couple of years have proven like what an incredibly rich, like idiosyncratic, you know, pool of filmmakers and talent are out there that are really getting to do things like very freely. Like you don't have to pay the money back. I think. You better hope not. I could be wrong. Maybe some of it. you know that there's no like studio system where they're like telling you who should you should cast and you know stipulating like rules on your on your script they give you feedback but you don't have to take it in the same way that like Netflix or like I'm sure you know 20th Century Fox would and it's just like very liberating and I think you're just seeing like a lot of these movies kind of enter the world stage over the past couple years and it's it's like tremendously exciting

1:22:29Sean Fennessey:It's really cool. Let's talk a little bit more about Myline Kicks. I found that you had a real facility with the fragility of the male ego. I wonder why. Why do you think that is? That's so interesting. What do you mean? Well, there's like a certain kind of a guy who's a very recognizable guy from that time. You mentioned Paul Banks from Interpol. He was literally the first famous person that I ever interviewed. Really? And I think he's a very nice guy. But even some of that vulnerability I felt when I was talking to him when I was 20 years old. I was 20 years old with my friend Ryan Dombel who worked at Pitchfork for years.

1:23:06Together, he and I interviewed Paul and the guitarist from the band. Wow.

1:23:10Sean Fennessey:In the basement of the Bowery Ballroom. And I felt a little bit like I was flashing back on that moment watching some of the interactions that your characters are having. where it seems like this is supposed to be intimidating and then it very quickly becomes clear that the person that you're interviewing is just as nervous and awkward as you and just has just as many foibles and maybe even more than you do. And like, how do you protect a person in that situation? Because you feel like you need to do right by their art, but also shouldn't you honestly portray like who they really are and like how much empathy or sympathy do you have for the place that they find that?

1:23:44Sean Fennessey:I just thought it was very perceptive the way that you mapped a lot of that in the movie. I mean, I'm just having like flashbacks to like every musician I ever interviewed because you're totally right. It's such a weird power dynamic because I mean, you know, when you're 20 years old, like you, I certainly, I felt like completely powerless all the time, like over my parents, over my bosses, over the people I was dating, like could not hold my own in like a conversation unless I, but there was something about like being on the list and having access and the tape recorder and like as a way to like make friends and also feel like, you know, it's what Almost Famous says, like, that you're cool.

1:24:20Yeah, I belong. Yeah, totally. And so, but then, yeah, it's weird to be, like, 20 years old and talking to, like, badly drawn boy and he's complaining about, you know, how he doesn't even like the sound of his own voice anymore. Right. And you're like, he's being so vulnerable with me and this is such a gift, but, like, now I am, like, the keeper of the secrets and, like, what do I do with all this information?

1:24:40Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I've always thought, like, what do I do with this? Like, I can write it down in a piece, but it's not going to properly convince. It's like a real difficult thing to convey humanity to in those scenarios. Yeah, I always felt myself like accidentally getting into these very deep conversations with people. Like I remember Wayne Coyne telling me the lead singer from The Flaming Lips about like how when his wife's mother died, they had like they were both consumed so much by grief that they just started having sex all the time. And there was the combination of like sex and death that like gave them the best sex of their life.

1:25:12And I like was like, wow. And then I like wrote it in the article. My bosses were like, why are people telling you these things?

1:25:18Sean Fennessey:That's an amazing anecdote though. I don't know. It's such a strange thing. Yeah. I think it had something to do with maybe just how like unassuming I seemed or something. I mean, I think that's what Joan Didion said too, that she's just like, when you're kind of like a small person, that's like, like, I think people just want to tell you their secrets. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people in that situation also really want to do what your character in the film wants to do, which is write a 33 and a third and somehow thinks that that's like the affirmation of your insight and that you've like reached some sort of critical mountaintop or something because you've written an extended personal essay about a piece of art.

1:25:57Sean Fennessey:Like that's another thing that I feel like if you're not old enough, you might think that you made that up. Right. It's like a thing that people do. Yeah. in the time. It was the cultural currency of our day. Isn't that quite strange? Absolutely. Did you ever write one? No, I never wrote one. I never pitched one. I certainly thought about pitching quite a few. Yeah. But I didn't have the gumption that Barbie's character has in the movie. Well, neither does she. Ultimately, yeah, yeah. Was Alanis like a lodestar for you being from Canada? Yeah, I mean, I remember just being on the playground and someone like coming over to me and just telling me that they'd read this article about this woman from Canada who was 19 and made this album and she's really mad and she like talks about having sex and it has a lot of swearing and I was like I gotta get my hands on this like and so I like after school just like begged my mom to like take us to um like the big box kind of like Canadian equivalent of a Best Buy and um you know listen to like the album on like a little and um like in one of those little like players where you can sort of preview the song.

1:27:04Sean Fennessey:The listening station. Which I'm so nostalgic for now. I know. Those are nice. I would kill for a listening station. And then I begged her to buy me the cassette. And then we put it on. I remember we were in Brantford, Ontario. And my mom had a minivan at the time, like a forest green 1996 Windstar. And my sibling was in the backseat, probably like three and a half years old, in like a baby's chair, car seat. And, you know, I hit play. And like, you ought to know it's the first song on Jagged Little Bill. And immediate Atlantis is like, would you go down on me in a theater? And my mom is like, what did you want me to get you?

1:27:43And I had no idea what she was talking about. But I was also like, this is like the prophecy of what my future is going to be. Like, there's something about this album that is like telling me what it's like to be a woman. And even though my problems are like having attention deficit disorder and like having a messy room and like my mom not letting me watch Power Rangers with my brother. anymore because we got too violent like this is like I relate to this so hard it's funny though

1:28:08Sean Fennessey:just hearing you tell that story with the level of specificity that you have like it was very obvious that you have to tell stories right that you remember where someone's sitting you know what they're wearing what they were doing at the time what you were doing where you were when you heard about something like that not everybody can do that too that's like kind of a weird superpower Oh, thanks. And like sort of make such specific recent history period piece is such an interesting feat. I'm always so intrigued by them because this is it all it's 2011. Is that when the film is set? How did you think about putting that on screen and making sure that it was right?

1:28:43Well, at first it was just because, you know, that's the summer that I lived in Montreal. And when I wrote the first draft of the script 10 years ago, it was only like 2015. Right, right. And then over the, you know, decade that has taken me to make the movie, suddenly that's like a codified aesthetic on TikTok known as Indie Sleaze.

1:29:03Sean Fennessey:Indeed. I never would have imagined that's what it would have become. I know. So it's very interesting. I mean, I think I'm always making movies to like be back in the memory of something. Like, I think the reason I made I Like Movies was because I wanted to be like, have the sensation again of like pushing the little like video store cart full of like jangling, you know, VHS tapes along a carpet and rewinding things and like just all the kind of like tactile like things that I remembered about like working at Blockbuster in high school. and it was like very exciting to me to like unearth all these like like the jones soda um you know pops that that we had that i remember like stacking in the back of the mini fridge and yeah and then with this film yeah it was more like oh wow there's those like ill-fitting disco shorts again and you know um the like specific like vape that my my friend tyler used to smoke kind of and stuff.

1:30:00And so, you know, I think I was really blessed with like a great costume designer, Courtney Mitchell, who's like a genius and production designer, Jess Hart, who's extraordinary. And like, even just to look at like the aesthetics of like Indie Sleeve's photography that was kind of like personified by like Vice Magazine and the Cobra Snake. Cobra Snake, of course. Who shot all our promo pics for Myline Kicks. Really? Yeah, like Jeremy Cox, my DP, who just shot A24's Backrooms and is like an extraordinary collaborator. Like it was just fun to be like, okay, what does this look like aesthetically?

1:30:32Like how do we like make a memory and like step back in time a bit? You did.

1:30:37Sean Fennessey:I was like I said uncanny for a reason. That's really quite something. So how did roommates happen? Yeah. So I was in the middle of editing Myelin Kicks, teaching a screenwriting class that I had originally taken at the University of Toronto. teaching the same class that like made me want to be a filmmaker. Can I ask you something about that time then? When you were teaching that class, were you thinking like I'm going to be a professional movie director for my life and like I'm going to be successful and be able to sustain myself or were you thinking like I need to have multiple irons on the fire at that time just to pay the rent or whatever?

1:31:16I have like no, I don't conceive of my career in any way. I just think of it as like a random amount of things that just keep happening to me and I continue to fail upwards and that's great.

1:31:26Sean Fennessey:We are different in that way. I feel like I was so much more like craven and ambitious when I was like 18. So like what what phone call did you receive? What email did you get? What happened? So, OK, it was 10 o 'clock at night. I was, you know, marking my students assignments at this 24 hour diner in Toronto called the Lakeview. My agents call me and they're like, Chandler, when we sign you, who is the person you said you most wanted to work with in the entire world? And I was like, Adam Saylor. And they're like, yeah, well, he saw like movies. And I'm like, what the fuck? Like he saw like movies, like what are you talking about?

1:32:02And they're like, yeah, he really liked it. And he has this project that he wants to shoot this year. It stars his oldest daughter, Sadie. And it's written by these two really funny SNL writers, Kira O'Sullivan and Jimmy Fowley. And if you like it, you know, read it tonight. And if you like, he's going to call you on the phone tomorrow. And I like was just utterly stunned. And like the, I didn't even, like the fact that he watched this movie that, you know, we shot in the pandemic that didn't have lights and have my parents as extras and my elderly dog, like in the movie and my brother doing an Adam Sandler impression of the Hanukkah song when they watch SNL.

1:32:38Like all of this was just like fundamentally shocking, but the movie's also kind of a love letter to Adam Sandler. So maybe I secretly manifested it in some way.

1:32:47Sean Fennessey:Did you, well, I want to hear what your conversation with him was like, but did someone slide it to him and say, hey, there's some Sandler stuff in here? How did it come across his transom? I think one of my, I think Adam has like a lot of agents at WME. So one of his agents is my agent. So it was a Nepo agent situation. But did he watch it and say, oh my gosh, this is going to make sense. Also relieved that they finally got me a job after like four years. So what did Adam say? So, okay, so I'm freaking out. I read the script in one sitting. I'm really blown away by how funny and kind of surprising it is.

1:33:25Like, it really is like a, you know, it had like this kind of honesty and like felt like a real reflection of sort of Gen Z and what it's like to go to college now. But then it also takes these like absolutely insane sort of Happy Madison-esque turns. And, you know, I was thinking a lot too about like female comedy directors in the 80s and 90s, like women like Penny Marshall and Amy Heckerling and Tamara Davis, who directed Billy Madison. Sure did. And how, Penelty Spheres. Also a music video director. Yes. Yeah. And how like, you know, there was a brief window in time when like those women got to shoot, you know, like.

1:34:01Sean Fennessey:And Betty Thomas. Yeah. A million dollar like studio comedies. And now like that never happens again. So crazy. so um so yeah i was i just like freaked out went to bed and then woke up at noon to a call that from a number i didn't recognize and i like unlocked my phone i was like hello and and then the other line was like teller

1:34:27this is adam fucking teller and i was like hi and um he's like i really like i like movies it's a really fucking good movie. And I was like, oh my God. And then for like 15 minutes, he like was like quoting lines of dialogue back at me. And he was mentioning like specific edits in the film and like performance beats and like how I covered like a scene. And I was just utterly shocked that, you know, this is like my idol. Like I used to walk around my high school listening to the Punch Drunk Love soundtrack on my like CD player, just like imagining that I was in the movie. Like I just worship at the throne of Adam Sandler.

1:35:05So for him to see me as like a peer and an equal was like absolutely astonishing. And then, yeah, we talked for like an hour and a half and, you know, three days later I was like being flown to, um, to LA to pitch the movie to Netflix with him. And we, we like sat in this like hotel room in Beverly Hills and, you know, luckily I'd made a lookbook in like the three days that I had to prepare. But it was just like incredible and so surreal, like kind of talking about like our shared vision for the movie. And one of the Netflix execs was like, that's the calmest like I've ever seen someone in a pitch meeting.

1:35:41And I was like, Adam really grounds me. But I think it was just because I had like felt like I'd fully gone to like a different like, you know, timeline or multiverse or something like this was not my life so you know i was in like canadian micro budget timeline you know i i read that like the gap for most women between their first and second features is like eight years and so i was like perfectly content to kind of like you know i i'd already made like myelin kicks like very quickly by those standards so to make another movie and have that like jump was just like utterly surreal

1:36:16Sean Fennessey:so i imagine it had to have been somewhat challenging because you're making a movie for a big streaming platform, plus also the producer of the movie is Daughters in the Film. That's complicated. Plus, you know, you're making a movie, honestly, about a generational experience that you're now a little removed from. Yeah. I don't know where you want to start from that, those challenges, but like, what was the most, the trickiest thing to unlock in making the movie? Well, I mean, there's just so many things. There's like, you know, he, I feel like he recognized the potential in me as a filmmaker that like, I didn't even know that I had, you know, because I read that script, but I'm like, okay, there's like a whole like pyrotechnic, like fire scene.

1:36:54There's like crazy stunts at the ropes course. There's like a turkey that explodes. There's like, you know, this giant ensemble, these, these big spring break, like set pieces where, you know, there's going to be like 300 extras. Like, I don't know how to do this. And, um, but Adam's like, oh, you'll figure it out. Like, no problem. You got this. And it's boobie. I'm like, okay. so I think it was really like Adam's belief in me that just kind of like, um, made it possible. And then of course you like work with such a great group of collaborators that, you know, you realize that like the key to doing that is like, Oh, well you work with like an incredible stunt choreographer, like Mark Fisher or our, my, our cinematographer, Maria Ruchi, who shot Shiva baby and bottoms, like was just so impeccably smart about like how to break something down and, and make like something funny comically, like in an image.

1:37:45and really innately like elevated kind of what was on the page with like like really strong like cinematic ideas and then and then yeah then it just became fun to like have all these resources like to do like crazy you know magnolia inspired like crane shots and you know steadicam one-ers and and have like four cameras for for you know on a day I mean it was like unbelievably like I I felt like I kind of suddenly was like doing my PhD in like studio comedy filmmaking. But everyone around me was so experienced and supportive. And, you know, it becomes like very collaborative. And I think one thing that is interesting about Adam that people might not think is like he really is like the auteur of his own movies.

1:38:33Like, you know, no one thinks of those movies. Happy Madison film is like being directed by the director. They're Adam Sandler movies. and they have a very specific like otoristic kind of like themes like aesthetic like actors that kind of like travel through his work. Tone pacing all that stuff. Yeah like you know an Adam Sandler movie when you see it. Yep. And

1:38:53Sean Fennessey:He's like working in the same tradition that like Jerry Lewis was working in that Buster Keaton was working in. Exactly. Where it's just like they've built a persona and everything is. Like Marx Brothers. Yeah exactly. Yeah so you as a you are like co-directing the movie with him you know and And one thing that I was really surprised by was that much, you know, runway he gave me to kind of have my own ideas and instincts about things. And if I, you know, but yeah, of course, it's it's like very like specific, you know, when it's like your daughter is the lead actor of the movie. And, you know, sometimes I had instincts about how I wanted her to play the scene and sometimes he had different instincts.

1:39:31And then I'm like, what are Sadie's instincts like? and so I think we all had to kind of like just try different options and explore from different angles and that was like kind of an interesting process because I think I've been so like monolithic in my other two movies.

1:39:46Sean Fennessey:I feel like she gives a really good performance and it's a hard character. Yes. There's like a lot of turmoil in that character and she's like not always likable but she's not always the hero like she has to be flawed it was like unusually psychologically rich for a Happy Madison movie in that way. Conversely. Yeah, I feel like the tone is like Lady Bird meets TV Halloween. Yeah, totally. In a way that I'm very proud of. Yes, you nailed it. I couldn't have said it better. I also have a lot of Chloe East stock. Oh my God. As a Fableman's boy. You know, I really, I think she's really quite special as a performer.

1:40:18Sean Fennessey:And she's playing like a real old school, like 80s style movie character, you know, where it's like, why is this person such an asshole? but also something else is going on under the surface and we want to know what it is. Yeah, and she's so charismatic at the same time and really likable. Like, it is kind of like, to me, like a Regina George level performance and I just think she's like such a phenomenal actor and Sadie too. I mean, I can't imagine like finishing your first year of college when you're about to star in a$30 million movie and just handling it with that degree of like aplomb and preparation and just kind of like professionalism and just like commitments are really going there, you know?

1:40:57Sean Fennessey:Yeah. So the two films, which came out on the same day, which is crazy, which we couldn't, could we locate a single person who's released two feature films on the same day? We were talking about it, yeah. I don't think there's one. You know, Soderbergh maybe with Traffic and Erin Brockovich. I think same year, but not same exact day. So like same exact day? Spielberg. Is that good or was it bad? Is it, do you worry about one blotting out the other? Would you like to have had six months in between? mean is it easier to just pack up all this promotional moment up into you know a couple of weeks of time um I I really can't say I mean I was making both movies at the same time so in a weird way it kind of feels fitting that that they're both coming out on the same day because you know in in prep for roommates I was still finishing like the score and sound mix and color correct so I was like on an iPad you know in like a frat house like trying to get you know wi-fi to like approve VFX shots and stuff.

1:41:53And, you know, while I don't, you know, Spielberg, when he made Jurassic Park and Schindler's List at the same time, both excellent comps to my two films. Yeah, they're similar. He, I think George Lucas did the post for Jurassic Park to kind of help him out while he's making Schindler's List. Yes. And I'm very lucky that my wonderful editor, Simone Smith, like really stepped in for a lot of the sound mix and kind of post stuff because she, yeah, she really like is my best friend and like invaluable. And also just that my producers like were willing to kind of accommodate it. I think they realized it was like an offer I couldn't refuse.

1:42:31Sean Fennessey:Yeah, so now what? Like these are two very different movies, but obviously they have a tremendous amount of crossover with your point of view. Is there one path or another that you want to try to pursue? Do you have, are you doing another movie? Like what's next? Yeah, I think that's a great question. Like, I always considered myself like I want to be like a personal filmmaker, like writer, director. And, you know, if I can make like two personal kind of semi-autobiographical films a decade until I'm 80, like that would be just great. Wow. I like that. And then when I made it, either retire or like find a younger like host body that I can sort of like being John Malkovich my way into.

1:43:13And so I had never thought that I would be making like any kind of studio movie or, you know, yeah, like it just it never like kind of occurred to me. And but like this was such an incredible like challenge. And I'm so like grateful for the experience and just all the genius people that I got to work with. I mean, every day was like an embarrassment of riches to direct, you know, Carol Kane and Steve Buscemi and Janine Garofalo. And like it just goes on and on, as well as this like really brilliant young cast. I don't know like I think I'm really inspired by like filmmakers like Zach Kreger who kind of really retain their voice while like going to bigger and bigger stages or yeah or Greta Gerwig who I you know was again like curled up in the feudal position being like I just want to be and especially Matt Johnson who you know like produced My Line Kicks with his producer Matt Miller as well as my producers Matt Pat Kiley and Jolie Grillo and like really for 10 years was like telling me like we're going to make this movie like don't give up on it and and just to see him like you know work with neon and go into these like bigger stages like it inspires me i think i'm always like torn because i you know it's funny that sophie's movie is coming out because i always feel like i want what sophie has i want to be like a yeah a yannis film girly and like be having lunch with iris sacks and like you know this like you I remember like seeing her like take a selfie with Jafar Panani.

1:44:44Meanwhile, I'm like talking about VFX on a dog's butthole. But it's like, I don't know. No one's path is like linear. No,

1:44:53Sean Fennessey:I mean, I relate to you because I think it's very normal to like and want both. You know, I think all filmmakers, like we all project on each other and everyone's career sound seems like it's, it's different and better than ours. And, you know, like I, The films I really love are just like Tony Erdman and The Apartment and Almost Famous and Punch Drunk Love. And I just, I don't know. I want to sort of maybe straddle that line. Yeah, there's like a genre blur going on in all of those movies. Yeah, that totally makes sense. I was trying to situate how I like movies and my line kicks was making me feel.

1:45:28Sean Fennessey:And it was like a little bit of Mike Lee, a little bit of Albert Brooks. Wow. There's like some social discomfort. And you've got this really kind of like charismatic but strange person at the center of the movie, you know. Like naked, yeah. Yeah, like naked. Well, hopefully not as devious. But yeah, I don't know. I think you have a singular perspective, especially on those movies. So you should definitely keep pursuing that. Oh, my God. Thank you. Well, from one spin in turn to another, you know, I remember we worked in— Did you have to work in this basement that was called The Pit? No. No. No.

1:46:04Sean Fennessey:In fact, I was working by, when you were at SPIN, I was at Vibe. And I think we were in the same building. Was it 215 Lex? Is that where it was? You're all the yeshiva schools. Yes, exactly. And then we split. And we moved to different offices like a year or two later. You might have gone back to Canada by that point. I was back in Canada. But that was very traumatic because I interned at SPIN as a college student. And then what was exciting to go back to that building when I got the Vibe job. but then it was not felt like things had changed a lot of the people had left that I looked up to and things were evolving and then that's the other thing too is like you get to the center of this stuff and you're like so this is it this is what it is is that how you feel?

1:46:46Sean Fennessey:every day really? I'm just getting trying to dig deeper and deeper looking for the heart of it what do you mean by that? just waiting to see who's you know what's really going to wow me you know when am I really going to be knocked out? Spielberg itself wasn't enough? well that was a rare exception you know No, it's not about that. It's not about like the people that you encounter when you're doing the thing. It's more like when you're inside the machine. What is inside the machine? I actually wonder for you similarly when you're getting now that you, I feel like making a big movie like this for Netflix is a big step in a person's career.

1:47:15Sean Fennessey:It's like a big opportunity. Yeah. Do you feel like you're a little bit closer to like the center of how some of these things work? I have no idea. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Ted Sarandos was like sitting behind me at the roommate's premiere. and um i i heard him laughing through the whole film and then afterwards i like shook his hand it's the softest hand i've ever felt in my life right not picking up a lot of lumber you know like see you on the next one like great job and i was like like everything is just so surreal to me like like i don't know i think because i have no expectations maybe it's like an easier way to go through through i'm sure my managers and agents are like what are you doing each other you're pulling this but it's like i just kind of want to tell like personal weird stories and characters that i love and like can't see enough of and kind of just like continue to make movies and and grow and like collaborate with interesting people you know and i think that's the same reason i loved journalism was like you get thrown in these like amazing kind of situations that are so unlike your regular life like you know where all of a sudden you're like, you know, on the road with a band or talking to Nicole Holofcener over like a buffet at the Radisson Hotel or something.

1:48:36And then, and same with film, like I'm always like stepping on like a 40 foot ladder to like, you know, riding on a crane or something. And it's like, so unlike my real life, which is literally just like looking at my phone.

1:48:49Sean Fennessey:Have you had a chance to meet Cameron crow i met him very briefly at his uh his book launch in la and i paid 350 dollars to to uh get the like you know extra extra pass oh okay i'm gonna i'm gonna try to get you guys in touch i feel like you should talk to him he's a very special person i would um be very grateful and and respectful of his time i think the way that you are are uh living the legacy of almost famous would probably touch him. I tried to not lose it when I met him earlier this year, but I feel similarly. I could tell from his aura that he was wonderful. He's very kind. It was just like the wrong way because I idolized him so much.

1:49:30And, you know, I think I'm a filmmaker because of him and a writer because of him and like partially a human being because of all of the movies he's made. And so I think I just put too much pressure on him. And like he was really nice, but it was like the wrong way to meet him.

1:49:48Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And Adam had like told him that I was coming because they're buds. Yeah. I think he had just like texted him because like a picture of like Eddie Vedder's drum set or something. And he's like, oh yeah, my friend Taylor's coming. She's a nice girl. And then I went and I was like, and he like, I met him. He was like on stage and I went, walked over to like greet him. And you know, I was so like, I've been imagining this moment for like 20 years. Yeah. And he was, he just like, the lady was like, oh I really like your dress I'm like thank you and then he's like hi I'm Cameron which is also the same name as my dad and I was like I'm Chandler and he's like where are you from Chandler I'm like Toronto he's like oh is Bloor Street still around and I'm like the largest street in Toronto yes and then I'm like yeah you know like the Yorkville music scene from the 60s Jody Bishley he's like wow you really know your stuff and I'm like and he's like so you want to take a picture I'm like okay and then we like took this picture and then i was like this is gonna be over in 25 seconds like what do i do that's not that's never the right way to do it yeah it needs to be a little bit more prolonged experience you know but you know like i'm i'm yeah i'm you know i would be i don't want to no one owes me anything his movies have already given me so much he should watch your movies that's the next step let's let's make this like a campaign um okay chandler and ever episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing you've seen?

1:51:15Oh, wow. That's such a great question. I'm racking my brain. I want to say Pillion. Yeah. I love that movie so much. What did you like about it? I keep describing it as like heated rivalry meets The Office, like The British Office. Or I don't know, maybe like an Antonioni movie or something. But I just thought it was so funny so moving so tender at the heart of it like i keep thinking about it like i think the way that it just like yeah i love that it's so like audaciously queer but it also just feels like actually you know what movie it really reminded me what was johanna hogs the souvenir yes like just a formative heartbreak and someone who really transforms out of a very painful relationship but is in some way liberated and closer to the identity of who they really are.

1:52:07Sean Fennessey:So well put. And similarly, like, withholding and mysterious partners who are, like, unable to really give themselves over. Yes. Yeah. And, like, you're just like, do you see me? Do you see me now? It's a great comparison. Can I debase myself a little bit more for you? Yeah, yeah. And, like, the— Why do you think we like these movies? Ooh. Let's not do that. I think I made a film about that for you. Chandler, congrats on two films. And a great 2026. Oh my God. Thank you, Sean. You're a great cinephile. And thank you for consistently repping Canada. We love you. I'm doing my best. Thank you.

1:52:47Sean Fennessey:Thanks to Chandler. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his production work on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production work on this episode. And thanks to Sarah Reddy for filling in for us. Next week, I'll be talking about Andor. Wonderful. It's a TV show. Yeah. I've seen several episodes and quite enjoyed it, but then I had to get on with the rest of my life. I understand that. Chris Ryan's going to join me. Chris has covered Andor quite well on The Watch. If you want to hear that, you should check it out. But we're going to dig into that. We're on the precipice of this Mandalorian and Grogu movie.

1:53:17Sean Fennessey:Some tracking came out today. Yeah. Not great, Bob. Yeah. Looks like it could be an issue. I agree. In my home, we're also getting ready for it. I am solo parenting right now. so my new trick is in the in the mornings to corral everyone into the kitchen and get them to eat their breakfast i just start playing the star wars theme as loud as possible and everybody runs in and then starts galloping around uh so we'll be there i don't know if anyone else will but that's okay we'll be there as well we'll see you soon

1:54:12We'll see you next time.

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