The Final Best Picture Power Rankings and a ‘Sinners’ Second Look With Autumn Durald Arkapaw!

7:52Sean Fennessey:Not a villain in the race. Yeah, exactly.

7:54Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Which, you know, depending on where you're sitting, like maybe Sean Penn is, again, according to your politics or your just enforcement of Los Angeles smoking indoors loss. Yeah.

8:05Sean Fennessey:He plays fast and loose. Frankly, I love Sean Penn as an actor, and I think he's amazing in one battle. It's a very showy performance, a very noisy performance. But, you know, it's like that's what you. Christoph Waltz for Inglourious Basterds, that's what wins here. It's very memorable people who are right outside the edge of the center role in the film who tend to drive a lot of action. That's what often wins in this category. It would be pretty wild for Sean Penn to become one of the very few actors to win three Academy Awards. But Frances McDormand just did it a few years ago.

8:37Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, and it would make sense in terms of how Hollywood and actors feel about him and the way that the Oscars do tend to reward certain types of performances and certain types of people. We haven't said it. So, Alordi, still in the mix, yes or no?

8:56Sean Fennessey:I think he's in play for SAG. Yeah. I think that could happen.

8:59Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And then if that happens at SAG, that's a real boost in terms of...

9:04Sean Fennessey:SAG is also on Netflix and that's a Netflix movie. and also the people who vote in SAG remember are not just actors they're also like weathermen and influencers like because it's SAG AFTRA and you and well I'm not in SAG no thankfully although we should probably be in SAG at this point among other things yeah but uh yeah I mean I think Alordi could definitely win there

9:23Autumn Durald Arkapaw:yeah who is the fifth person who am I not thinking of Stellan Benicio Sean Alordi and who is our fifth person who's literally who's just not gonna win well Stellan Skarsgård's

9:34Sean Fennessey:not nominated at SAG even

9:35Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Right. No, I meant at the Oscars. Who is it? It's not Paul Meskel. Del Rolando. Of course. You already said Del Rolando. We were talking about it. Of course. Okay. So it could go anywhere. Any of them could win. It could go anywhere. That's cool. That's great. I think it's probably not Benicio at this point, which is sad that he had like a real critics run. And then he did. And then it fell off.

9:57Sean Fennessey:He did. I'm not ruling anything out. Okay. I think this is going to be really fun to predict this year. Supporting actress similarly is wide open. You know, the two actresses from Sentimental Value are not represented at SAG.

10:11Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

10:11Sean Fennessey:You know, there was a moment when we were like, oh, it's Inga Ibb's daughter Lilius. Oh, you know, now it's like, could Winmi Masako win in this category? For sure. We can talk about her character when we talk about that film. Seems like that could happen.

10:21Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yes, especially if she goes BAFTAs and then SAG, actor awards, whatever we're calling them, and then straight into voting. Yes. And I think also if that happens, then you could feel the momentum also saying, why not Delray Lindo? Yes. And then I do think that has a real up-the-ballot swing for sinners.

10:46Sean Fennessey:That would be one of the ways in which you could see that it is happening. and we'll know because those are two of the earliest awards that are given out. If we get two Sinners acting awards in the first 20 minutes of the telecast, everybody's going to spend the next three hours being like, well, Sinners did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that'll be really interesting. So Sinners won three BAFTAs, which is, I think, more than I would have guessed. I don't think I would have guessed the Wunmi Misaku. I didn't do any predictions for BAFTA, but score makes sense. Original screenplay does make sense to me.

11:13Sean Fennessey:I would not have guessed that Wunmi Misaku would win, but that feels open. And then let's talk about actor.

11:18Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

11:18Sean Fennessey:so Robert Aramaya won for I Swear which is a film about a man based on a true story about a man who has Tourette's and his family and this film won multiple awards at this award show it's obviously not been represented in any other award show we've been talking about over the last few months and so it's not out here

11:37Autumn Durald Arkapaw:in the US until April

11:38Sean Fennessey:April that's right so we haven't even seen it yet I've heard it's quite good I'm curious to see it but this there's just another wrinkle in a race that like I think maybe we thought was over two months ago and now is not. And now is Timothee Chalamet a little weak or at least weaker than we thought? Marty Supreme won zero awards last night. I think it went 0 for 11, which is not great. And like, is Marty Supreme suddenly going to become the Irishman of this year? That's in play. We shall see. I think, does it open the possibility for Wagner Mora? Well, the thing is, is Wagner Mora is also

12:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:not nominated at SAG Actor Awards. So So it's if I think it closes the door for Vagnamora. It's what I think personally. I could be wrong. And you and I have both been wrong speaking against the power of Brazil many times on this podcast.

12:29Sean Fennessey:I've spoken no words against Brazil and I never will.

12:32Autumn Durald Arkapaw:But he didn't get BAFTA and he's not eligible. He's not nominated at SAG. So he's not going to be in front of people again.

12:43Sean Fennessey:The other thing is that sentimental value won international feature at BAFTA, which is also, you know, a challenge for the secret agent, which I think I thought was going to be a little bit stronger through this race. And I think we talked about that at the Golden Globes. But this has really been moving around. My gut still tells me it's still Timothee Chalamet. The one thing against that, I think, is that no person since whatever it is, 1990, I think, is when the SAG Awards started, has won two years in a row. And so Chalamet won last year. So it would be unprecedented for him to win. we will see in a week from now.

13:15Sean Fennessey:Jessie Buckley, turtles all the way down, man. She's just, this is one of the most dominant performances in an awards campaign that I've ever seen. I think people knew the moment they saw the movie nine months ago that this was over. And that's really interesting. Below the line stuff, you know, I think one battle winning at cinematography is interesting, particularly because, I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but you know, Michael Bauman is the credited cinematographer. He is the cinematographer of the film. And on the previous Paul Thomas Anderson movie, he was co-credited as a cinematographer with Paul Thomas Anderson.

13:51Sean Fennessey:And on the previous Paul Thomas Anderson film, Michael Bauman worked as a gaffer on that film or maybe as like a coordinator. But PTA got the cinematography credit. Right. And so along with Colin Anderson, who's this camera operator who you may have heard Ben Affleck talking about in his conversations with Josh Safdie, Colin Anderson also worked on Marty Supreme. Those three guys make this kind of three headed monster of cinematography, even though Bauman, who I've heard is great. And actually, Matt Johnson from Nirvana, the band, the movie was here talking about it because he shot his new movie, Tony, with him.

14:23Sean Fennessey:But anyway, awarding this group as opposed to an individual is kind of fascinating if indeed Bauman goes on to win the Oscar. I have been thinking it's going to be Autumn Duralt-Archipaugh. I believe she's the favorite in the Oscar race.

14:37Autumn Durald Arkapaw:No, I have as well. But I mean, it is. Sinners did win three awards at the BAFTAs. But, you know, one battle won Best Picture, Best Director, and Cinematography. And did PTA one adapted screenplay? He did. Yeah. So there is still an editing as well. Right. There is a real strength there above and below the line, even if it was overlooked. And you throw in Sean Penn and you're like, oh, OK, there is a lot of enthusiasm for this.

15:07Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's interesting. A couple of awards for Frankenstein, of course, which we think we'll see at the Academy Awards. Production design, makeup and hair, costume design. F1 for sound.

15:16Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah. Vroom, vroom.

15:18Sean Fennessey:Makes sense. You can see that. special visual effects Avatar Fire and Ash Big Jim

15:22Autumn Durald Arkapaw:okay yeah

15:25Sean Fennessey:okay we'll save the rest of our conversation when we get into our best picture power rankings let's talk about a new release it kind of flew under the radar and it flew under the radar because it got dumped fascinatingly dumped we can talk about why it's been dumped I think you and I kind of landed in the same place with this movie so the movie is How to Make a Killing it's the new film from John Patton Ford who wrote and directed a movie a few years ago called Emily the Criminal which you and I both enjoyed. Who was the star of that movie? Aubrey Plaza. Aubrey Plaza, thank you.

15:54Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And then Theo Rossi, I believe, was the supporting performance that we loved. He is great. I think we gave an alternative big pick to Theo Rossi. We did.

16:02Sean Fennessey:This new movie is a kind of soft adaptation or inspiration off of the 1949 British film Kind Hearts and Coronets, which is kind of a caper comedy classic starring Alec Guinness, which is also inspired by a 1907 novel called Israel Rank, the autobiography of a criminal. This new movie, of course, stars our guy, Glenn Powell, Margaret Qualley, Jessica Henwick, Bill Camp, Zach Woods, Topher Grace, Ed Harris, really good cast. It's an A24 movie and the premise is as follows. Disowned at birth by his wealthy family, Beckett Redfellow, great name, will stop at nothing to reclaim his inheritance no matter how many relatives stand in his way.

16:40Sean Fennessey:So not a lot of people saw this movie. It opened in fewer than 2 ,000 theaters despite its wide release status. What did you think of How to Make a Killing?

16:48Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Listen, I called my shot in 2016, called it again in 2018. I like watching Glenn Powell. I really, I do. And it's been interesting to watch him try to find the right roles for him. And I think that this one is closer than some recent choices, specifically The Running Man, in which it has a fair amount in common. And maybe not 100 % there, but he's watchable. I was rooting for him despite the circumstances of the film which the film needs to succeed and then I I really like John Patton Fortnum I think he has a real knack for what you could dismiss as like another eat the rich movie and you know top line it is has some of that element yeah like many rich people get creatively murdered um but is way more specifically observed I think he really understands um the distance from that world that his characters feel and the anxiety and the anger and Ken also has a sense of humor about the very rich people, even as he convincingly portrays that they are ruining society at large and also all of our insides.

18:09Autumn Durald Arkapaw:So I thought it was strange and worked and I liked it.

18:14Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think it's pretty good. I'll start with the negatives. There's an inherent tonal clash that is a little hard to navigate because it is a movie about murder and it is also a farce but also feels like a kind of deeply felt story about class. There are times when you're like, how seriously am I supposed to be taking this? Like a movie that features both the Zach Woods character and also the like absolute misery tragedy near the end of the film. It's a little bit like lump in places. And you can tell that he didn't really totally get his arms around the tone of the material. That being said, I thought it went down very easy.

18:53Sean Fennessey:You know what I mean? It's very enjoyable to just hang out with this movie for me. And I've been a little surprised by the mixedness response to it. Because it is another example of a more like, I just want like 25 of these a year. And it's a good start part. I think Margaret Qualley is maybe overdoing it a touch in the movie, and that kind of weighs it down a little bit.

19:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:A thousand percent, but that is also what she is cast to do in the movie, so I try not to hold it against her specifically.

19:20Sean Fennessey:I like her, but she's really hit or miss as a performer.

19:24Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And she is just always, oh, Margaret Qualley's here doing Margaret Qualley stuff.

19:28Sean Fennessey:It can be a bit distracting in a movie like this. She's beautiful.

19:31Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And, you know, they have her in just like head to toe, very tacky Chanel, like old Chanel, not new Matthew Chanel. And which she. Real clueless style. But it is very funny and purposeful. And she like has a relationship with them. So I do think most of it is like real and purposeful. Knowing, yeah. Yeah. So that's what she's there to do. And it uses some of the Margaret qualityness. But I agree. I wasn't particularly. It felt like a sideshow. Yeah.

20:00Sean Fennessey:It's too bad because the movie kind of starts to turn on her character. And that, I think that's why the movie is getting dinged. Through the first hour, I was like, why is this movie being dumped? Yeah. I was like, this is very good. And I agree with you that it is a much closer, it's closer to Hitman Glenn Powell. You know, where it's like, he wants to be able to be a little fungible with his like, you know, his costumes and how he hides.

20:21Autumn Durald Arkapaw:He doesn't get full, full Halloween costumes, but they do let him wear a beanie for a while. Yeah. Even while watching it.

20:28Sean Fennessey:He's in like the aviator suit with a plane sequence.

20:29Autumn Durald Arkapaw:with this beanie that you keep wearing and then I was like alright it's because Glenn really wants a costume dress up

20:35Sean Fennessey:I think he's pretty charming and I think more or less expresses the gravity of it how did you feel about the framing device where he's sort of the confessional to the priest behind bars

20:47Autumn Durald Arkapaw:first two minutes is a real uh oh this is we're taping this together there's a voiceover there's a framing device

20:54Sean Fennessey:and also

20:55Autumn Durald Arkapaw:and like the framing device is that he's on death row and I just you know I don't believe in the death penalty So I was just mad. I was like, oh, I've got to do this. But again, it goes down so smooth and it is like a very functional framing device. And I think like Glenn Powell narrates the voice. It's a good voiceover performance. And so at some point you just stop asking questions. You're like, sure, like I'll go along with this. And I don't, it didn't feel that scotch tapey. I think it was doing a little bit of work pulling the tone together in a way that held for me, I think, until Margaret Qualley's character has to really do whatever she's doing.

21:38Sean Fennessey:Yeah. My friend Chris Rosen reviewed the movie on Letterboxd and he was like, this is a September movie. This isn't a February movie. And I thought that was a good insight where like there is a certain kind of like it's not an awards film. It's not a blockbuster. It's got it's just kind of like a character piece that is fun to hang out with. and the movie I can see why the movie was kind of set aside and maybe I'm sure maybe Glenn is not thrilled with how it turned out or whatever but I think it's pretty solid and it's in that like it's a six or a seven and sometimes a six or a seven is a good time and I like it a lot I think Zach Woods is hilarious his character is really funny so real like that's a dude I'm sure we knew in Brooklyn which is like a Nepo kid who thinks he's an artist and has an absolutely empty plastic bag like he has no ideas is.

22:25Sean Fennessey:I really enjoyed him. I didn't know that the other cousin was Jude Law's son.

22:30Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, Raph Law.

22:32Sean Fennessey:Is Raph short for Rafferty? Raphael?

22:35Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I think so. Rafferty? Yes. Rafferty. Let's double check this right now. Like Terrence Rafferty? Rafferty, Raff, Jellicoe Frost Law is the full name. Jellicoe Frost Law?

22:45Sean Fennessey:What in the world?

22:47Autumn Durald Arkapaw:He is Jude Law and Sadie Frost's kid. I don't know what else you expect. Let's go back. If Jude Law and Sadie Frost are going to have a kid, name him Rafferty Jellicoe Frost Law.

22:56Sean Fennessey:Rafferty Raff Jellicoe Frost Law. Yes. That is the worst law firm in America. Okay. I thought he was, I never, I don't think I'd seen him before. I think he was amusing as the stock trading bad boy who comes to a fateful end.

23:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I was excited when there was a helicopter, like stunt-esque, not like quite a full stunt, but I was like, wow, you guys got a helicopter. Good job on you. The movie has some scale.

23:21Sean Fennessey:It's not a small movie. I think who was Jessica Henwick's character, not a real person. No. I wish there was a little bit more time spent shaping who that person was. Right. Aside from being like a very kind kindergarten teacher. Right. Or like a high school English teacher.

23:36Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And there is some room there because she's supposed to be sort of, you know, disgusted by the Zach Woods character. And she's drawn to Glenn Powell's character.

23:48Sean Fennessey:Why was she dating Zach Woods in the first place?

23:50Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And then she just keeps going along with Glenn Powell's like, you know, moving on. So there is there is some motivation and stuff to question there. And I agree. It doesn't really.

24:01Sean Fennessey:That part doesn't really work. She's sort of an audience surrogate, but not really. Yeah, this movie is going to be forgotten pretty quickly. And maybe people will discover it when this goes to HBO Max. But I thought it was a good old time with the movies. And as I mentioned to Chris Ryan, another in a long line of pop culture artifacts that are set basically in my hometown. And fans of The Wonder Years or Growing Pains might know that those are more or less inspired by youth in Huntington. And this is a movie that was originally called Huntington. And I was talking to my sister about it this weekend.

24:39Sean Fennessey:And I was like, how many billionaires do you think lived in Huntington? and she started and she was like oh I'm sure like a bunch and I was like in our hometown and then she started kind of finessing it with like oh no when you go to the coast up north in Cold Spring Harbor and you know I lived in the most middle class town in America

24:58Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Huntington is name checked it is they live in Huntington and it is a grand estate portrayed yes the house they used for the interior I liked by the way I just want to say good like the confrontation scene with Ed Harris Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good stuff.

25:13Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Yeah, that was cool. I mean, that house just is not. There's Ohika Castle near Huntington, which is a place where that was where many events were held. Okay. But most of the people that I knew who attended attended because they worked as servers at Ohika Castle.

25:25Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I've just Google imaged Ohika Castle and this is not the exterior used. No, no. Okay. It looks nice.

25:32Sean Fennessey:Sure. I just, I'm like, I want to ask John Patton Ford, like, why Huntington? What was it about this town? I presume he went there once. I don't know.

25:40Autumn Durald Arkapaw:It's a good name, you know?

25:42Sean Fennessey:And then they didn't use it.

25:43Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Well, but I mean, but it's just like the town itself.

25:46Sean Fennessey:It's just named after a London town, you know?

25:48Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Sure, but the name itself evokes something. Yeah.

25:52Sean Fennessey:I was from Huntington Station, too, which is really down market. We were really not from the nice part of Huntington, unfortunately.

25:57Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I had a lovely time when I visited. You did go. You've been to Huntington Station. Yeah, the Cheesecake Factory was wonderful. So that's all you need.

26:04Sean Fennessey:I'll tell you what, that was a good Cheesecake Factory, I gotta say. Yeah, shout out to Huntington. and I don't really miss it that much, to be honest with you. All right, let's circle to Sinners. Now, you have not, I think I've watched this movie five times, and you have not seen it since you saw it in movie theaters last April. Is that right?

26:23Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I mean, I've seen scenes from it, and parts of it, because it has started, as it was released on digital, you know, it's just permeating the culture, and you catch up to stuff of it. And it was interesting, certain shots, when they showed up, in my rewatch. I was like, oh, you know, Leo pointing at the camera because I am so familiar with them individually. But no, but I did go back. I saw it in theaters. I saw a re-release. Okay.

26:50Sean Fennessey:Was it IMAX or was it just a regular?

26:52Autumn Durald Arkapaw:No, it was just, it was a regular special screening. Yeah.

26:55Sean Fennessey:So, I mean, I think, you know, over the next few weeks, we'll like revisit a couple of the movies that are nominated for Best Picture. I think we'll talk about the doc nominees pretty soon as well. But this feels like a good time to go back to this movie because we did two big episodes about it right when it came out. And then we've talked about it through the awards race, but not kind of through any critical perspective. I actually just rewatched it about 10 days ago because my wife was like, let's watch this. I want to see it. I'm knocking off all the Best Picture contenders, and she didn't get a chance to see it in movie theaters, so I got to watch it at home.

27:23Sean Fennessey:So, you know, with almost a year out, tell me some of your reflections. What did you make of the movie? And especially in light of it having this kind of elevated historical status now.

27:33Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah. Well, it was interesting. I remember our conversation with Van and we were talking about how much is stuffed into this movie, which is true and is what really stuck out to me the second time. I think, you know, much in the way that when we watched One Battle, the first time I was like, oh, this is really funny. And the second time I was like, oh, this is so emotional. the first time I watched the movie I was like oh wow this is like a really really elevated um like really smart um like almost like genre breaking vampire movie but it is you know there is a big centerpiece with like a lot of vampires and the second time I watched it I was like oh the vampires don't matter at all um I mean and they do and they do and there is it's a very cool idea that the vampires represent in the movie about ownership of art and black art specifically.

28:33Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And and also the type of movie that is being made and the type of movie that people, you know, audiences want to see. So they do matter. And also like the set piece, obviously, like they they spent a lot of time and effort shooting like a very gnarly vampire movie. But I found some of it is just personal preference. My attention was almost waning a little as they kept jumping on each other. And I was really surprised and excited at how alive the movie came again at the second, the actual climax, which is the smoke character against the clan. and the way that's shot. And it's sad and exciting and obviously the emotional dream stuff at the end.

29:30Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And as you realize, oh, this was foretold in the first scene also.

29:35Sean Fennessey:Which he does. He does that in Black Panther too. He uses these kind of illustrative narrative moments early in the movie that's kind of like, here's the movie you're about to get.

29:44Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah. So it was interesting just to be sitting there and realize, oh, no, this is the movie. And this is where it's going. And this is where I'm actually going to get catharsis and where a lot of the ideas are going to maybe not meet resolution, but at least kind of come to a head. And then, you know, famously at this point, I didn't know there was a post-credit sequence. So the first time I saw it, I didn't see it. And I noticed that the ending and the post-credit sequence now started before the credits when I saw it in re-release.

30:26Sean Fennessey:But there were no credits at all when you saw it in re-release before it started? Because I think that there was like a directed by Ryan Coogler credit, like maybe like a couple of credits. And then it went to the post-credit. Was there anything?

30:38Autumn Durald Arkapaw:They show Buddy Guy before you hit.

30:42Sean Fennessey:Playing guitar.

30:43Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah. It almost goes straight from Miles Caton's character, from Sammy driving with the guitar along in the road. And it goes straight to Buddy Guy.

30:54Sean Fennessey:I can't remember how they do it on the Blu-ray release.

30:59Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And you play a little more. And it's made a lot clearer that more is happening. And you need to stay and watch. and I understand why because that's the actual end of the movie.

31:13Sean Fennessey:Yeah, yeah. I have some questions for you about that when we get through it. It brings in, you know,

31:18Autumn Durald Arkapaw:in the way that the showdown with the Klan and then Smoke seeing Annie and his baby is a resolution for that character. You get some sort of resolution for Sammy before the credits sequence, but it's really the ending for both Sammy and Stack and the Mary character.

31:43Sean Fennessey:Or is it?

31:44Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Or is it? And well, you know, is it a happy ending? Who is the happiest? Like, what are you supposed to take away from these resolutions is an interesting question.

31:54Sean Fennessey:I mean, what I really want out of that final stretch, and maybe this is just Marvel brain, and I want to talk a little bit about Marvel and Coogler and how that intersects with this movie, but I would very happily watch the 1990, you know stack and marry vampire movie that's like circa demon night or something like a black horror movie in from the time of my adolescence because I loved horror movies at that time right I think Kugler would be awesome at making a movie with like you just think about the music that he could use at that time you'd look about like think about like the set design the production design he could incorporate it does have a little bit of the like there could be another chapter of this movie too yes um which given how successful it's been And you could see it.

32:35Sean Fennessey:And it sets it up, but not in an obnoxious way. It's not like next time on Sinners. It's like, this is open. Stack is still a vampire. Mary is still a vampire. We can do more, but we don't have to. And you can be happy with the end of Sammy.

32:48Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And I think, and also the openness is like another accomplishment of the film, because what Sammy says to them as they leave, and he was like, he says something like, until everyone started dying, that was the best day of my life. and he's almost looking at the vampires before him with longing and they go off together.

33:11Sean Fennessey:Yes.

33:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And so, again, you're like, so which outcome was I supposed to be rooting for? Who is, what is the happy ending here? Like, what are we supposed to want? Which is, like, really cool.

33:25Sean Fennessey:I mean, you're touching on something that I find to be such an electrifying aspect of the movie, which is on the one hand there's this big load-bearing metaphor about the vampires who want to siphon the life from all people but especially these black people and especially this one black kid who Remick, the Jack O 'Connell character is obsessed by because he hears the music that allows him to conjure his past and remember his own life which is a really thorny idea that like white people forget about stealing black art and commodifying it in America, white people are fascinated by black art. They're moved by it.

34:04Sean Fennessey:It has inspired so many white people to make art that sounds like the blues. Rock and roll is totally this transmogrification of the blues music. So that idea is really interesting. And then so Sammy then and some of the other characters that are inside the juke joint, looking at Remick and then looking at their loved ones who have become vampires and being torn about like whether to join this eternal life where you're part of a hive mind and you feel like a part of something but knowing that there's a kind of evil in that decision and a kind of a colonization and a just become like losing the self right like losing your individuality in order to feel safer is a big idea in a vampire movie and I thought he really communicated it really well and I think I'm generally with you that the actual vampire mayhem of the movie to me is the least successful stuff in the movie.

35:02Sean Fennessey:Yes. And some of that is just like, even though Coogler's now made a few action movies, I feel like he's not in that like John McTiernan level where a vampire throwdown is going to be the best thing in the movie. Maybe he'll get there, maybe he won't. But everything conceptually around the vampire usage is so smart and so realized. And so much of it is more like the formal classical universal horror movie stuff of, you know, if you would just invite me in and I could cross that line. Like the Omar, I talked to Autumn actually about that Omar Miller sequence when he comes to the door and he's like, just let me come on in, you know, and they're kind of having that negotiation between the two of them.

35:39Sean Fennessey:And that's just like, you could find that in a vampire movie a hundred years ago and it would be just as compelling and just as interesting as a concept. So he's got his, he's really got a handle on that stuff. There is just like a big CGI fight. Like there is in so many Marvel movies, there's two of them really there's the raid on the juke joint and then there's when they go outside when Remick is is you know when they're all kind of burning in the sun that is like I think when the movie gets criticized it's people thinking about that stuff in the movie which makes it feel just like a genre movie or a comic book movie or whatever and it and then you like it lied all the other dramatic or metaphorical stuff that makes it such a powerful movie but I as I have been saying since The Shape of Water Best Picture win, I'm like, good.

36:22Sean Fennessey:Like, get more of that shit in movies that can win Oscars. Parasite winning, which is like a Hitchcock movie after Hitchcock never won, is good. Like, let's just kind of get more what people want from movies. And that is part of the reason why that stuff is all in there is because Kugler has such a keen sense for what audiences want. It's what's made him so successful. And they do want a big fight at the end. They do want a throwdown, you know? That's something that you learn making Creed or that you learn making Black Panther. And so I understand why that stuff is there. I wish it was a little bit more sharply rendered or a little bit more clever.

36:53Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, and it also, you know, it does come after not just like an hour of... It's amazing how much world is built into what is a one-night-only movie. It's a 24-hour. It is. It's just like, it is one crazy night. It is. It is. And so much history and so much recreation. I just like the, you know, it's not insightful to say that like the production design and the cinematography, like really stand out in this. But like, so that's Ruthie Carter, that's Hannah Buechler, that's Autumn Gerald Archipaugh. And they really bring this specific place in Mississippi in 1932 to life.

37:33Sean Fennessey:Yep. And the train station, the cotton fields, the juke joint, like the spaces that they build are really amazingly realized. Yeah.

37:39Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And so you're, you're so immersed in that world. And Kugler has talked about like how much research, you know, he did. And in addition to this being something that, um, was shared with him from family members. And it's like a big part of, um, meaningful to him. But so it's so beautifully recreated. And then you do before all the vampire stuff really gets kicking. You have what I am now calling like the, the dream ballet, um, the, like the big sequence, which is, I lied to you. And, um, is a literalization of so much of what the movie is trying to do in terms of the connection of, um, black music and black history, like over time and space, backward and forward.

38:24Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And also other cultures too.

38:26Sean Fennessey:Yeah, exactly. Japanese, Chinese.

38:29Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, totally. And it uses also the characters because the Chinese group in the Mississippi, like the Chinese history in the Mississippi Delta is represented in the characters and also in that dream ballet. And it also creates something that I think the movie does so well, which is this is like a very sensual movie and it understands the power of music. It understands the power of movement and understands the power of sex. It understands how all those things are like related to God and spirituality and that, you know, on one side is church, on the other side is music, on the third side is oral sex and lots of liquids.

39:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And you feel all of those things. Like it's just, you feel the different combinations of or like explorations of the ecstatic. And then you get to that sequence, which is just killer and looks so good. And you're just it's it's magical movie making. And then you do got to watch the CGI vampire fight. So I do think that some of the the criticism or the resistance to the that fight is because of like the high highs that are achieved in the first 90 minutes.

39:41Sean Fennessey:I felt a little bit of it watching it even the first time I was like, OK, this is going into a slightly more standard movie territory. And I think some of those criticisms are informed by a generation of movie fan that saw a couple of movies that I think Coogler has been pretty honest about being inspired by. But I feel like it's probably better to put those movies in a lineage. And I've been kind of arguing with people about this over the last few months, but obviously there's a lot of From Dusk Till Dawn in this movie. The Robert Rodriguez film, which was written by Quentin Tarantino, George Clooney and Tarantino play brothers.

40:15Sean Fennessey:who are criminals who kidnap a family and they bring them as hostages on this road trip so they can escape after a bank robbery and they find themselves at a bar on the border of Mexico and they realize when they're in this bar where they're waiting to meet someone overnight that it's actually a vampire bar and that after a certain period of time, all the patrons of the bar and all the people who work at the bar are all vampires. Very similar in a kind of, a little more than superficial way. But if you look at the history of these movies, From Dusk Till Dawn is very clearly inspired by John Carpenter's Assault on Precinct 13.

40:51Sean Fennessey:It's also clearly inspired by Catherine Bigelow's Near Dark. It's also inspired by John Carpenter's The Thing, which Coogler and Autumn have cited as major inspirations. And so I personally enjoy the idea of Coogler using movie history and the frameworks of movie history. This is what all of my favorite directors do, where they're just like, I really love this movie from 40 years ago, and I want to do kind of my spin on it, and I'll do it in the Mississippi Delta, and it'll be about blues music. To me, many great movies, maybe most great movies, are kind of in conversation with movie history. And so the idea of people being like, this is just from Dusk Till Dawn, completely misunderstands the long arc of vampire movies in American popular culture.

41:33Sean Fennessey:So I enjoy that he does that. and then I also enjoy the fact that he doesn't just end with a big vampire fight he does the two things that you were describing where he puts a bow on the KKK which the movie kind of sets up very well at the beginning when Smoke and Stack buy that space from Hogwood Hogwood incredible hilarious name for the KKK member you get this really artful kind of classical John Dillinger like shooting into the camera moment from from Michael B. Jordan. And then that incredibly complex spiritual idea of Annie and their child were both dead and then him smoke moving on at the end of the film, which is a swing.

42:18Sean Fennessey:I mean, that's not a small gesture. It's a pretty dramatic moment. And what I like about that, and I've been turning this over my mind, so I'm curious how you feel about it. I see the movie as like somewhat anti-organized religion and I don't even know how faithful a person Kugler is or not but Sammy's kind of war between his family life and his creative life and what his father wants for him and what his cousins want for him and where he ultimately ends up when he grows up to become buddy guy and the way that Smoke goes out and the fact that he does have this connection to the spiritual world and that Annie represents this other Creole and African relationship to the spiritual, but that the kind of the organization, the like structure that keeps you spiritual is really discarded in the movie and not really paid as much attention to.

43:11Sean Fennessey:And what it is really ultimately is a movie about like following your passions and what you want and what's inside of yourself and keeping it for yourself and not giving it to Remick and not giving it to anybody else who wants it. Keep doing it on your own terms is again another thorny idea in the stew of the movie that I really enjoy. And every time you think he's going to end the movie, he waits to end it to say like one more thing about the things that are on his mind as he's writing through it. But I don't know if you, people may disagree with me about how they see spirituality and the church in the movie.

43:43Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I mean, it's definitely set up as something that the Sammy character is rebelling against. and the last shot is him, the last shot before the final credits. Yeah, your last shot. The last shot of Miles Caton is Sammy driving away from the church. And it echoes him driving away with smoke and stack ahead of time. And he's on a road of his own, perhaps a road to Damascus. But so I don't disagree. I think.

44:23Sean Fennessey:It might not be as like clean as like it's anti-religion. That's not really what I'm saying. But it is like I wonder inside of Kugler there's something about like I could have went here, but I went here.

44:31Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Well, I think what the movie is amazing at communicating and is exploring and like it's the connection like music, spirituality, like sex. There are different ways to feel and live in this world and enjoy this world and find its real beauty than in the institutions that are presented throughout the film.

45:01Sean Fennessey:I think that's well put.

45:02Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And the movie really understands the connections between all of those things. So I don't know. It is a very sexy movie and there are not very many sexy movies right now. but not in like a not in a gross way or not in a way that's trying to like titillate I think it just understands like sex as another like way of connection and physical expression or

45:30Sean Fennessey:yeah no I think it's a it's a movie about desire in a lot of ways about what people really want and Sammy going down on Jamie Lawson's character you know and then having that kind of like union that realization I think Haley Steinfeld's character is like incredibly sexual and forward in a way that's fairly uncommon. But again, it's kind of this thorny idea of this white woman coming into this space, desiring a black man, wanting to be within this black enclave of people and her not feeling shame about that, her being excited by it and being like scorned by this person who left her and wanting to get back in their life.

46:04Sean Fennessey:But then turning her into a vampire who then turns him into a vampire, which is again, this like really naughty idea that I think is really interesting.

46:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:One thing on rewatch that I did notice was that it is it's it is the women every time who let the vampires in. You pointed out Lola Kirk, which like she is. I don't remember her character's name. She's Lola Kirk forever. And then and then Mary, who is sent out because her argument is that she is like the vampire, the the Irish musicians, as we as the characters understand them at that moment are more likely. to be forthright with her.

46:45Sean Fennessey:Lola Kirk's name is Joan, by the way, in the film.

46:48Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, okay. And then Grace, the Chinese grocer who invites them and she literally yells, comes in, come in, but it's because they've threatened her child. Played by Lee Jun Lee,

47:03Sean Fennessey:who's great in this movie. Yeah, so wonderful.

47:05Autumn Durald Arkapaw:So that's three instances. I mean, I sat there and I was like, hmm, I wonder what this is trying to say and it's not trying to it's not like the men are doing anything proactive like the the men are not helpful in any way they just like become vampires well it's also the non-black

47:23Sean Fennessey:women exactly you know annie is not inviting any vampires in annie is the only person who knows

47:28Autumn Durald Arkapaw:how to do anything she's the wisest person in the movie exactly um so i you know i think that All of that's like very purposeful. And the men, the funniest scene to me that I had forgotten was Delray Lindo eating the garlic clove.

47:47Sean Fennessey:So good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that whole sequence is very inspired by the thing and this idea of like testing who is really the monster. So like a great callback. But I mean, he's very funny in the movie throughout. His nomination is really interesting to me because like I think he's really good in the movie. Yeah. I don't know that he's like my favorite performance of all time. I think he's like an interesting side character. Not really too much more than that. But I love him as an actor over the years. And there are a number of different times when I've been like, he should have been nominated for Clockers.

48:16Sean Fennessey:He should have been nominated for Defy Bloods. He should have been nominated for a bunch of other movies. But you do need a person who can play for laughs there a couple times in the movie. Because the movie does run the risk of getting a little psycho serious about certain aspects of it. But like Smoke and Annie, that's a very, you know, sincere and very straight conversation that they're having first when he goes to see her after he's returned to Mississippi. And then later they're kind of like their union inside of the juke joint. So you do need people who can kind of like balance. And then the vampires ultimately become very funny.

48:51Sean Fennessey:I spent a lot of time thinking about Jack O 'Connell and Kugler's decision to like make choose an Irish vampire. and this really interesting history of the Irish and Black Americans.

49:02Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, it's purposeful.

49:04Sean Fennessey:Totally purposeful. You know, like two very musical peoples, two peoples that were considered a lower class, but one certainly at a much higher station in society than the other. And this idea of like the false sympathies of the Irish that is like, again, a very deep and complicated idea. I've had a lot of fun texting with Van over the last few months about that idea. and you know Ryan I think has a really good insight and sense of humor about that he's like my name is Ryan like I am Irish you know and the idea of O 'Connell being a big time monster like a real historical movie baddie but also having this pretty typical in the right kind of movie sympathetic strain of vampire identity where it's like most vampires are like I didn't, this wasn't my choice.

49:56Sean Fennessey:Somebody took my life from me. I'm bound to this eternal struggle. I just kind of want to get back to what my life used to be. And so even though you say vampire, you think of silly movie with somebody biting somebody's neck, you know, the Bram Stoker idea of it is very sexual, very psychological. And O 'Connell, obviously on a legendary run right now, just playing complex villains. But I think he's terrific in this movie. And I said to Autumn, the Rocky Road to Dublin scene when he's dancing and singing and then it becomes this kind of like ecstatic, euphoric, collectivism moment between all of these vampires who are like coming together to embrace this white boy.

50:37Sean Fennessey:I think it's so good.

50:39Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And you really do. This stack character is there singing along like very enthusiastically. And Michael B. Jordan is like really heaving it up in that moment. It's great. It's a great performance, but it jumps out.

50:53Sean Fennessey:MBJ, also obviously nominated. And I think an actor that we've always liked, I think has maybe been a little historically underestimated, but also we've been living with him for a long time, going back to The Wire and Friday Night Lights.

51:08Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, we watched him grow up.

51:10Sean Fennessey:We did. He's currently making The Thomas Crown Affair. I know that. That's pretty complicated for you. What if it's not good?

51:16Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I'm open to it. But that was one thing that you guys, well, I haven't finished your Crime 101 conversation yet. I mean, I do, you know, I love a JMO light podcast. So I will listen to all of it.

51:27Sean Fennessey:It's a little JMO-ish, yeah.

51:29Autumn Durald Arkapaw:But no one's mentioned the Thomas Crown Affair overtones yet. I mean, like it's a very hot insurance woman in on or not on the trade. That didn't occur to me. It was right there for the taking.

51:42Sean Fennessey:We missed you then.

51:43Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I enjoyed Crime 101. Yeah, it's fun. I did think that it was Chris Hemsworth, the accountant, but that's okay.

51:49Sean Fennessey:It 100 % is.

51:50Autumn Durald Arkapaw:But I also enjoyed the accountant and even some parts of the accountant too.

51:53Sean Fennessey:They're very similar performances, a very similar idea behind that guy. Two beautiful men who are like, what if I'm a little weird?

51:59Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

52:00Sean Fennessey:You know, which I get it as a beautiful man who's a little weird.

52:04Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Anyway, MBJ. He's really, really good at reacting to people. That's one of his skills as an actor. so you really do need to hand it to him that most of this performance he has to be reacting to himself and or you know a stand-in for himself and I do think that he in addition to like really demonstrating a connection with both the Annie character and the Mary character and like and the Sammy character and all the people around him this scenes between Smoke and Stack have chemistry oh yeah which is incredible because you're just having chemistry with yourself.

52:44Sean Fennessey:It's a really good twin performance. Twin performances are not easy. Do you have any favorite twin performances?

52:51Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Lindsay Lohan, The Parent Trap, Nancy Meyers.

52:54Sean Fennessey:Yeah.

52:54Autumn Durald Arkapaw:It's a pretty good one. It's iconic.

52:57Sean Fennessey:What about Tom Hardy in the film Legend?

52:59Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I do think I've seen that. It's like 60s. He's in a suit.

53:04Sean Fennessey:Yeah, the Kray Brothers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

53:06Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Sure, listen. If Chris Ryan's happy, I'm happy.

53:09Sean Fennessey:Okay. What about Christian Bale in The Prestige?

53:14Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I mean he's good Christian Bale is seldom bad

53:17Sean Fennessey:I've seen Amsterdam

53:18Autumn Durald Arkapaw:so

53:19Sean Fennessey:is he even bad I don't even think he's bad in that I don't think he's ever been bad you know he survived Thor Love and Thunder I guess he's terrific yeah Christian Bale should work with Kugler that would be good I'd be interested in that I did like a lot about a lot of what Kugler has been saying about this film and what you were describing about his connection to the American South and how he pointed out that he made two movies about Africa before circling back to, he kind of skipped a step in terms of exploring his personal history and his family history. And his uncle James is this kind of signal figure in the development of this movie, someone who he's really close to, who was from Mississippi, who talked with him a lot.

53:56Sean Fennessey:He eventually moved to Richmond, California to be closer to his family. And so Kugler was very close to James. And they talked all the time about music and baseball and James drank whiskey. You know, I think most of us had uncles and aunts with whom we had these relationships, right? Where they showed us things. They kind of, because they weren't our parents, they could be more real with us about how things were. I like a lot of like Coogler's fascinations and obsessions with stuff that he puts into his movies and also his little perversions of things that he puts into his movies and him constantly citing this and his sadness about not being present when James passed away while he was making Creed being such a critical part of informing this movie I think is really cool.

54:41What else?

54:45Autumn Durald Arkapaw:So the, let's see. We did vampires. Do you think that the wishy-washiness over, not the disagreement over the actual vampire fighting thing, which is the most genre part of this genre movie and the least Oscars part of this Oscars movie? Will be held against it in voting. I think it already isn't.

55:17Sean Fennessey:You know, I mean, it got 16 nominations. And so that's sort of what I mean when I, as we've been doing this over the years, I give a lot of thought to what is accepted and celebrated. And, you know, I just mentioned to you The Shape of Water and Parasite. But, I mean, Everything Everywhere All at Once is another movie where Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was never really strongly considered as a Best Picture contender. It got nominated and was acclaimed. But a movie like that, a martial arts film, a film with a lot of martial arts, was just not recognized. And now it is. Now there is one. It's entirely premised upon the history of martial arts, that movie.

55:56Sean Fennessey:And so I think that's really interesting that a lot of those prejudices and biases against genre storytelling have kind of been washed away. Now, it doesn't mean that they're always going to win. Right. Right. And I guess there's never been a vampire movie that's won Best Picture before. And you could debate whether or not, you know, The Exorcist and The Silence of the Lambs, I guess, are the two primary victors in the horror movie Best Picture race over the years. And we're probably due now for another one, considering how meaningful horror is to audiences and to moviemaking in 2026. So that, I mean, I guess if Sinners wins, do you think of that as a horror movie win?

56:38Sean Fennessey:I guess you do.

56:39Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I guess so. Though again, my experience of this rewatch and of really sitting down and thinking about it was that the genre, the horror element is both essential to it and also the least memorable thing about it, in my opinion. And you need the framework and any good genre film in any genre is using those very, the beats and then inventing them, putting them together in new ways, referencing what's going before that. That's the joy of them. And that's also if you can be creative about it. So I think to not consider it genre is to also misunderstand the film.

57:21Sean Fennessey:Yeah, but it is also a musical, you know, in a very defined way where there are multiple set pieces where the movie just stops and we look at someone playing music. And that is so interesting that he's able to make that work together with it. The music itself, I have been giving a lot of thought to. I instantly fell in love with it and I'm on board with what Ludwig Arantzian does. like I just think he and I've noticed that he's gotten some criticism because he's now won twice in a row and there's this sense that like he's kind of iterating on the same idea over and over again which is he's using these kind of like cultural mashups you know that in Black Panther he's taking like classic orchestral music and hip hop and African rhythms and blasting them together in Oppenheimer it is this idea of like uh The big swelling orchestra with a very tiny quartet with this idea of electronic music pulsing underneath it.

58:22Sean Fennessey:And in this movie, Delta Blues, African rhythms, orchestral score, gospel music, heavy metal. There's a lot of American rock and roll in the movie. Exactly. The classic, it's a vampire movie and we cut away to the moon and we're like, boom, death chord, which is awesome.

58:39Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I love it, yeah.

58:41Sean Fennessey:I'm into it. As a project, I think that's a cool project.

58:43Autumn Durald Arkapaw:What else would you do for this film? I mean, that is just kind of like a literalization of what this film is about in a lot of ways. So, you know, I think it works perfectly. I have no problem with it.

58:58Sean Fennessey:I do too. I mean, I really, I think it's fun to look at the, um, to look at the playlist that they compiled for the inspirations for the music. Cause it is everything from like Willie Dixon and Sunhouse to Alice in Chains, you know, like it is a vast 100 year history of American guitar music on top of the fact that he, I think is ascending into this, like John Williams status, you know, where he has this collaborate, these collaborations with Coogler. he's now got these collaborations going with Christopher Nolan the same way that Williams kind of had like Lucas and Spielberg and then he started stacking on top of that and then Harry Potter and you can kind of see for the next 40 years that if Ludwig wants this he can have this and that's pretty rare

59:42Autumn Durald Arkapaw:let's have another John Williams you know John Williams one of our greatest living

59:46Sean Fennessey:how about yesterday when they were playing music and Alice was just like can you just put on the Star Wars music and just like

59:52Autumn Durald Arkapaw:the imperial march no the last 45 minutes of your barbecue was just our children like dancing

59:59Sean Fennessey:around to the star wars score yeah john williams is very beautiful at the jaws exhibit have you been to the jaws exhibit at the academy museum not yet there's you know multiple rooms but there's one room where it's um there's a keyboard and it has stickers on the keys and it shows you how to play the jaws theme and then on the screen behind it is spielberg and john williams talking about the score and how they built the score. It's basically Spielberg being like, I don't know how John Williams does it, but it's really interesting. Yeah. Ludwig, I like. I'm a fan, you know? Do I wish Dan Lepatton was nominated for best score this year?

1:00:34Sean Fennessey:I absolutely do. I do. I wish he would win. That's my favorite score. Me too. But he's not nominated, so he's not going to win.

1:00:40Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I do think that the score nominating committee needs to look within itself. It's been two years of just egregious oversights. But I'm not mad at this win.

1:00:52Sean Fennessey:I wouldn't be mad at it either. It almost certainly seems like it's going to happen. Johnny Greenwood still never won. That is weird.

1:00:58Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Isn't it?

1:00:59Sean Fennessey:What's going on there?

1:01:00Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I don't know. I mean, has PTA won? No. So that's what's going on there. Dave Fincher doesn't have an Oscar. Stanley Kubrick never got an Oscar. It's just kind of where we are.

1:01:10Sean Fennessey:These are all good points. I'm quite a big fan.

1:01:13Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Harrison Ford doesn't have an Oscar.

1:01:15Sean Fennessey:Yeah, that's a tough one. We can't make that one right.

1:01:19Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Tom Cruise doesn't, honoraries don't count in my book.

1:01:24Sean Fennessey:Digger, though.

1:01:25Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay. Digger's coming. We'll see. You think it's going to be at Venice?

1:01:29Sean Fennessey:Oh, is that being speculated?

1:01:30Autumn Durald Arkapaw:By me.

1:01:33Sean Fennessey:Are you going to Venice again?

1:01:35Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I'm thinking about it. It's been long enough that I'm like getting itchy, you know? It's been four months. Well, I know, but listen, logistics and being away from your family and you got to kind of like take a reset. but I've been looking at apartments, yeah.

1:01:50Sean Fennessey:Just to buy, to live in, yeah. That's exciting for you. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day-to-day, but our favorite films, with stories that make us change the way we think, they weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW, and the other drivers out there, grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn more at VW.com. If Sinners wins one out of 16 Oscars, will there be like a...

1:02:26Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Oh God, yes, of course there will. Of course there will. But and I...

1:02:29Sean Fennessey:I guess it's going to win too, right? It's going to win a screenplay and score. Those are going to happen.

1:02:34Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah. And Coogler will have like a wonderful moment on stage. As he did. Did you watch his Baptist speech? I did not. It was wonderful.

1:02:40Sean Fennessey:No, okay.

1:02:41Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And he had all the department heads stand up.

1:02:44Sean Fennessey:Very cool.

1:02:44Autumn Durald Arkapaw:and you know and he also he's so thoughtful about the actual award he's receiving and what he's receiving it for and it was about writing and the power you know and and inspiration to other writers but like in a non-trite way it was great so he'll get screenplays so two for 16 it's not what you want

1:03:08Sean Fennessey:I I don't think that's what's gonna happen but it's possible

1:03:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I would really like to see production design, costume design, cinematography.

1:03:19Sean Fennessey:I don't think the first two are going to Frankenstein.

1:03:21Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I don't understand that. But that's one woman's opinion.

1:03:26Sean Fennessey:Cinematography, I think, is a coin flip.

1:03:28Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay.

1:03:28Sean Fennessey:But we'll see.

1:03:29Autumn Durald Arkapaw:It would be nice to have more craft stuff because I do think they're such a... It is so beautifully built on every level. And also, as you've been saying, Coogler has really just brought up this whole... Like, the next generation of John Williams is in every category. Right?

1:03:44Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I mean, he's an incredible team builder and legacy builder, which I think is great. I mean, obviously, Ruth Carter has been working for decades. But, you know, Hannah Biegler, I don't think I'd heard that name before she started working on his movies. And now I look forward to seeing what she does. We talked about it with Autumn. The fact that she's now a person who she'd been making, she was making indies with Gia Coppola. You know, that was really what her filmmaking experience was in the 2010s. And her coming on to do Black Panther Wakanda Forever is fascinating. Coogler, for the next few years, is an interesting subject.

1:04:16Sean Fennessey:I think he has become weirdly more now than Black Panther, which was such a big film, but he has done such a good job as an advocate for this film and then, as you said, kind of winning these prizes and being a public person going on Good Hang with Amy Poehler. You know, like, he's more visible now and he seems to have relished it. He just so does.

1:04:35Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Sorry. I know.

1:04:36Sean Fennessey:That was a great moment. One of the few moments where a podcast was clipped out and I was like, this is good. this is what you want. He's making Black Panther 3. And Black Panther 2, you know, not my favorite. Probably my least favorite of his films. And you can see why. There are a lot of reasons why. Obviously, we lost Chadwick Boseman and I think that was obviously very hard for everybody who worked on that movie and it forced them to change that movie in a pretty dramatic way. And we are definitely in a moment where it feels like Marvel matters a little less to the culture. It doesn't mean that a Black Panther movie matters less, but this is the kind of movie that I'm like, God damn, I can't wait to see what this guy does next.

1:05:15Sean Fennessey:So then to just go to a Black Panther 3 is maybe not exactly what I would want from them, but it's not our choice, obviously.

1:05:21Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I don't know. Maybe he has a big idea. Maybe he's got a lot of stuff he wants to do. He's a very imaginative person.

1:05:28Sean Fennessey:I agree. I also don't think

1:05:29Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Ryan Cooler's in a position at this point in his life where he's doing something that he doesn't want to be doing.

1:05:35Sean Fennessey:Well, I wonder if he's contractually obligated to make a third Black Panther film. I mean, that crossed my mind. you know

1:05:40Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I mean I'm sure in some way but also I don't know aren't these things supposed to be more flexible

1:05:45Sean Fennessey:I mean he has a lot of power that's the other thing I mean I I noted that um Bill Lord and Chris Miller did themselves a an aspect ratio video in the run up to Project Hail Mary where they're kind of talking about seeing the movie in IMAX I can say I saw the movie in IMAX wowzers um so I get why they did that but that only happened because Ryan Coogler did the introduction of the film presentation of the movie, which then went viral a year ago. And now this wave of like. Horny format boys, you know, all the all the PLF kids who are just like, I will not see this film unless it's projected in 70 at CityWalk, which is like, I mean, it me, but it's really funny.

1:06:28Autumn Durald Arkapaw:You were that way. You were. Especially for One Battle. I know. And I was like, we got to just like.

1:06:32Sean Fennessey:I saw it in every format.

1:06:33Autumn Durald Arkapaw:See them and the VistaVision of it all. Yeah. Why? Why did they shoot Wuthering Heights in VistaVision? Why?

1:06:40Sean Fennessey:Didn't get an answer on that.

1:06:41Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I've got no answers on any of that stuff. I'm not really sure. But, yeah, see it in the best screen that you can. You know, in the best... Go to the best experience to see a film and then just see it.

1:06:53Sean Fennessey:What kind of movie would you like Ryan Coogler to make?

1:06:57Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Well, I know... Michael B. Jordan is directing Thomas Crown Affair, so...

1:07:02Sean Fennessey:I know. Coogler's version could have been... Wouldn't you like to see it? That would be really cool.

1:07:07Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

1:07:07Sean Fennessey:I know.

1:07:08Autumn Durald Arkapaw:my answer for most directors I admire is like, can you just remake The Timeless Crime Fair? A heist film with charming people?

1:07:14Sean Fennessey:Yeah, he would make a heck of a heist movie. That's really interesting.

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1:08:47Sean Fennessey:Best Picture Power Rankings. Yeah. We haven't done this in a month.

1:08:50Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Mm-hmm.

1:08:53Sean Fennessey:As I said, this is a very consequential weekend.

1:08:55Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yes.

1:08:56Sean Fennessey:So we're doing it before PGA and before the Actor Awards. And that will determine, I think, probably nothing, But PGA is going to tell us a lot. Yeah. Because PGA is extremely predictive for Best Picture. If Sinners wins PGA, will you flip where you think it's going?

1:09:18Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I don't know. I think if Sinners wins PGA and then you get a big night at the ACT Rewards, which are the next night. And I think Sinners is the presumptive favorite and best ensemble. It is. so if you get those two plus you pick up a supporting trophy or two then maybe yes maybe I'll flip it

1:09:40Sean Fennessey:you've been steadfast I've been more wavery I do

1:09:43Autumn Durald Arkapaw:we talked about the BAFTAs and we talked about this you know the surprises and then we listed all the awards that won battle after another the BAFTAs are not as predictive and I do think that there is a lot of movement for sinners but we have seen in the last few years that the race is decided quite early. And then losers like ourselves spend a lot of time trying to make things interesting until mid-March.

1:10:11Sean Fennessey:Like whose selves?

1:10:11Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And it's not. It's that, you know, it's everything everywhere. It's Oppenheimer. It's Anora.

1:10:18Sean Fennessey:So sometimes CODA happens.

1:10:20Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Sometimes CODA happens. I was on leave for CODA. You don't count that one. Yeah, so I don't acknowledge it. That never happened.

1:10:26Sean Fennessey:CODA, beautiful movie. I like that movie.

1:10:28Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I cried. Listen, I'm a human being.

1:10:30Sean Fennessey:Yeah, me too.

1:10:30Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I cried before I had a child.

1:10:32Sean Fennessey:I just love to have a daughter. That's been the best thing that's ever happened to me. And Coda is powerful truth about that. Let's do the rankings. I don't know that we need to dramatically shift what we had, but I'm curious how you thought. I thought there was a chance, and the reason I scheduled this for this time, I thought there was a chance that Hamnet could win at BAFTA. Because BAFTA is not very predictive and it tends to not match with Best Picture, Hamnet did in fact win Best British Film at the BAFTAs I thought we were going to be like okay is this actually a three horse race and that was the convo we were going to have

1:11:05Autumn Durald Arkapaw:and that's not the conversation

1:11:06Sean Fennessey:we're going to have so last time we did this in January we had number 10 F1 number 9 Begonia number 8 Train Dreams number 7 The Secret Agent number 6 Frankenstein number 5 Marty Supreme number 4 Sentimental Value number 3 Hamnet number 2 Sinners number 1 One Battle After Another what's changing? anything? I know this is a pointless exercise. All awards prognostication is pointless. I hear you guys. I get it. That being said.

1:11:33Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I don't hear you.

1:11:34Sean Fennessey:Okay.

1:11:35Autumn Durald Arkapaw:This is what we do this podcast for. Also, people pretend like they don't like this

1:11:40Sean Fennessey:and they listen to all these episodes. All of these episodes always have listenership.

1:11:43Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I don't hear you because I don't read the comments and also because this is what we do on this podcast for almost 10 years running. How many episodes are we? What episode is this?

1:11:54Sean Fennessey:We're coming up on 900. Okay. 900, I think, is this spring.

1:11:57Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay. 900? I know. What? It's not 1 ,000. It's not 1 ,000.

1:12:03Sean Fennessey:We'll get there.

1:12:03Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Remember when you made me celebrate like 300 or something?

1:12:07Sean Fennessey:Made you.

1:12:08Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And I, well, no, you did. You put it in. 300. Yeah, sure. That's a big number. It's not 250, you know? Oh, you think that's a not interesting number? I do. Okay. It's sort of like a 15th anniversary, which I think I said at the time. It's like we're stretching a little.

1:12:21Sean Fennessey:So you only care every 250?

1:12:24Autumn Durald Arkapaw:No, I just, I think that 250, 500, 750. I mean, 750 is really also, I don't think we did anything. We did not do 750. Yeah, no, no, no. It's 250, 500, and then 1 ,000.

1:12:36Sean Fennessey:I think we should have an anniversary episode every six episodes. I think that would go well. Okay. We're going to formally rank these. Are you ready? Yeah. So today's Best Picture Power Rankings is brought to you by Volkswagen. It's easy to sit back and watch life go by. like you're watching a movie of someone else's story play out but you'll never get where you want to be that way. So this is a call. From us, VW and all the other drivers out there take control and make the most of every moment like many of the characters in the movies we're talking about today. We have 10 moves.

1:13:05Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah. Is anything changing?

1:13:08Sean Fennessey:Yes. Begonia hasn't won shit so that is moving from 9 to 10 in my opinion. F1 at least is in the race for sound for editing. We could have like a Ford v Ferrari Sorry, editing went here for F1. That's in play.

1:13:22Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Oh.

1:13:23Sean Fennessey:You know, like sometimes a kind of non-competitor that is in the Best Picture race gets into that race. Right. That's plausible to me.

1:13:30Autumn Durald Arkapaw:But only if it involves cars going really fast. It helps.

1:13:32Sean Fennessey:It definitely helps. Because you got to cut

1:13:35Autumn Durald Arkapaw:from the one car to the other.

1:13:37Sean Fennessey:Well, he's got all those cameras mounted on the cars.

1:13:40Autumn Durald Arkapaw:It's good editing.

1:13:40Sean Fennessey:Kaczynski, my guy.

1:13:42Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Your guy. I'm right there. I've been there from the beginning. I think F1...

1:13:47Sean Fennessey:Bagonia, what's happening? What's happening with Bagonia?

1:13:49Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Everyone's happy to see Emma Stone at the awards.

1:13:51Sean Fennessey:Lanthimos, you in?

1:13:53Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I'm in. I'm pro. I enjoyed Begonia. I liked Begonia more than I liked Poor Things. So that's where I am. I think I like them about the same. Okay.

1:14:02Sean Fennessey:I think every Lanthimos movie to me that isn't the lobster or dogtooth is like a seven. The lobster and dogtooth, those are a nine.

1:14:11Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay. And the favorite? It's like a seven. It's good. Okay. It's a three and a half out of five. I think I would give the favorite an eight. and lobster and dog tooth. I agree. Nine. Begonia. Sure. I guess Begonia and poor things are both a seven because poor things the first time you see it really great. The second time you see it, you're like, uh-huh. Yeah. It's like 14 hours long. Yeah. Why is that movie so long? Gowns, beautiful gowns. No, I get it. I like it.

1:14:38Sean Fennessey:I like it. It's good. It's okay. It's very similar to the how to make a killing conversation. It was a good time. Enjoyed it. A couple ideas. Good performance. Love to go to the movies. but it's a number 10 begonia

1:14:49Autumn Durald Arkapaw:oh yeah it is but I enjoyed it

1:14:50Sean Fennessey:I did too F1 number 9 or is F1 is it zoom and vroom and past train dreams

1:14:56Autumn Durald Arkapaw:train dreams also well it's a couple cinematography it could win cinematography

1:15:02Sean Fennessey:and that's how we're grading this is sort of like what are you getting on the board and is train dreams going to get anything on the board on Oscar night it's not nominated in very many places

1:15:10Autumn Durald Arkapaw:yeah but

1:15:12Sean Fennessey:is the song train dreams from train dreams by Nick Cave nominated I forget.

1:15:17Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I believe so.

1:15:18Sean Fennessey:But Nick Cave will not be performing. Hey, you know what? Let's pause for a second. K-pop Demon Hunter is being added to the Criterion Collection. I saw! Oh my God.

1:15:26Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Let's go. Are you serious? Does Alice get her own copy? Of course. That's the whole thing. That's what we're about to do. Oh, that's so cute. Welcome to the collection. Put Alice in the closet. Come on. Oh my gosh. No, this is huge. To me. Knox would come too.

1:15:41Sean Fennessey:Well, yeah. He'll also be getting his own copy, obviously. I think it's just an ingenious move by Criterion.

1:15:46Autumn Durald Arkapaw:He wants the tiger.

1:15:47Sean Fennessey:Oh, yeah. What's the tiger called?

1:15:49Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I don't.

1:15:49Sean Fennessey:Derpy?

1:15:50Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, derpy. Yeah, he would just, he would like derpy in some form.

1:15:53Sean Fennessey:Okay, I'll clock that for the next birthday.

1:15:56Autumn Durald Arkapaw:He did randomly go upstairs and then just like emerge with my bring it on 4K that you got me for my birthday.

1:16:03Sean Fennessey:Hey, what's this? That's what this is all about. Putting K-pop demon hunters in the collection, a whole new generation of physical media kids. Fucking love it.

1:16:11Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

1:16:11Sean Fennessey:All right, I'm sorry. uh i i f1 at number i train dreams at number nine and f1 at eight i think that f1 has a better

1:16:20Autumn Durald Arkapaw:chance at sound and possibly editing than train dreams has at cinematography very interesting take right i think it's like f1 has a possibility a stronger possibility in two categories than

1:16:33Sean Fennessey:train dreams has in the one the case for train dreams in cinematography is most people have to shoot on digital, and they know how hard it is to make digital look like that.

1:16:42Autumn Durald Arkapaw:It is.

1:16:43Sean Fennessey:And so there is a little bit of an acknowledgement, but I...

1:16:47Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Do they know? This is actually my question. I don't know. Do they know? No. Where are our standards? No, whatever.

1:16:53Sean Fennessey:And what Michael Bauman does and what Autumn Duralt-Archipod do are very different in those two frontrunners. One is this very kind of like David Lean-esque portrait of big vistas, and the other is this very contrasty, dark, colorful, musical kind of that historically athletic. You know, there are a couple of big one-ers and sinners. There are two different approaches to this stuff. Train Dreams is a bit more magisterial, a bit more Terrence Malick. So they're all different, these different types that are up in that category. I think Train Dreams is nine because I don't think it's going to win anything.

1:17:27Sean Fennessey:I think F1 getting a win. Now is The Secret Agent getting a win?

1:17:32Autumn Durald Arkapaw:You think it's going to be sentimental value? I do. In the international future? I do. sentimental value is very strong

1:17:39Sean Fennessey:it is

1:17:40Autumn Durald Arkapaw:people really like it people really like it in the nominations

1:17:44Sean Fennessey:it won at BAFTA for non-English language film

1:17:46Autumn Durald Arkapaw:yeah

1:17:47Sean Fennessey:by the way speaking of the secret agent follow-up conversation that we will have will happen in March because the film is going to Hulu on March 1st

1:17:54Autumn Durald Arkapaw:oh that's great so then

1:17:55Sean Fennessey:the reason I've been holding off on us having a deeper conversation about the movie is because I feel like people haven't had a chance to see the movie so I know that those of you who've seen it are like talk about it talk about it more but when a movie plays in like 200 theaters and then goes away for three months, it's a little bit hard to justify it. But it will be on Hulu on March 1st. So we'll talk about it after that. Okay. Is F1 a head of secret agent? Is that crazy?

1:18:14Autumn Durald Arkapaw:That is crazy. Okay. So I think international feature is probably the only place where it could win.

1:18:21Sean Fennessey:Right. You've ruled out Wagner Mora.

1:18:23Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Well, I just, he hasn't been back on stage. Yeah. You know? And he's not going to be on stage with the actors because they didn't nominate him. Yeah. It's not my decision. It was theirs. were not in SAG-AFTRA as previously discussed.

1:18:38Sean Fennessey:They hate... Should we apply? Is that how it works? Should Netflix podcasters be in SAG? Okay. Genuine question. Should Rich Paul and Max Kellerman be in SAG?

1:18:49Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yes. I would honestly love to... What do you guys think? Yes? If they are, then I want them negotiating for me. Okay. You know? That sounds good.

1:18:58Sean Fennessey:Rich Paul's an Asian. That's what I'm saying. Okay. We can talk to them about that.

1:19:03Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay. I don't... I guess.

1:19:05Sean Fennessey:This is just a game. We're just playing a game. I love the game.

1:19:09Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Do you think right now, you're doing your ballot right now, it's sentimental value over secret agent in the international future? I already did my ballot for PGA. We are talking about the Oscars?

1:19:18Sean Fennessey:Like a general, like Jim Oscar voter? Jane Oscar voter? Yes. I could never get into the minds of those freaks.

1:19:24Autumn Durald Arkapaw:No, how about if you, Sean Fennessey, are making your predictions for Oscar night right now?

1:19:30Sean Fennessey:Oh.

1:19:31Autumn Durald Arkapaw:That's what I'm saying.

1:19:32Sean Fennessey:But they will never reveal the vote, so it doesn't matter.

1:19:34Autumn Durald Arkapaw:No, no, Sean. Who's winning international feature today? You have to pick today. Is it, is it sentimental value? Okay. I don't know if I'm there yet. I don't have to make that decision right now.

1:19:45Sean Fennessey:You're so afraid of Brazil.

1:19:47Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I respect it. You know, I, it's, they are, they are powerful. And I don't read the comments, but I know they're there. Is like, I really like the secret agent too.

1:19:59Sean Fennessey:I do too. sentimental value is maybe more special than we realize i know it might become a like big time movie for a generation of people well and i'll never understand that generation um

1:20:14Autumn Durald Arkapaw:i don't i don't you know what i'm saying i i do know what you're saying and i meant to say that um ryan kugler specifically thanked joachim trier in his uh speech i'm saying that joachim is a mentor to him. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. I was a mentor to him and taught him how to write. Oh, wow. And he loved that film. So I see what you're saying. These last two movies,

1:20:33Sean Fennessey:I think, are going to be very influential. And I think they're like, those two movies I see, The Secret Agent is brilliant and strange. Sentimental Value and The Worst Person in the World are almost like Starter Kit International films where when you're first starting to get into movies and you're like, okay, I'll start watching movies that are not in the English language. They're very easy movies to glide into international cinema. And then you can look at them and be like, Okay, there's this history of Norwegian films, Scandinavian film. You find Bergman. You start finding French films. You find the new wave.

1:21:01Sean Fennessey:You move over to Asia. You start looking at Japanese films. So, you know what I'm saying? I do.

1:21:06Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah, it's a bridge. It's a bridge. Yeah.

1:21:11Sean Fennessey:Yes, it's a bridge. So, I would say sentimental value in part because of that and is very watchable and has stars in it is way ahead in that race. Okay. But you know what? I could be wrong. I don't know.

1:21:19Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Well, right now we're trying to decide whether F1 is above the secret agent or not. And I, and so.

1:21:26Sean Fennessey:It's a very cool game.

1:21:27Autumn Durald Arkapaw:That to me is like a little bit overcorrecting for your cowardice in your nominations predictions. And ultimately I leave it to you. You know, you didn't have the strength of your convictions that morning. Do you want to have them now?

1:21:42Sean Fennessey:Here's the problem with the way that we're doing this right now. It's not a problem. It's something I insist upon. F1 is in dead last in the Best Picture race. There's no question in my mind. Everybody is putting it at 10, unless you worked on the movie. and that's okay because it got there. It got to 10. But that's not what we're talking about right now. We're mixing it up.

1:21:59Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Where did you put it in your preferential PGA ballot?

1:22:03Sean Fennessey:Are you willing to share that with the public? I don't have a copy of that, but if you just look at my top 100, it's based on wherever the movies fell in my top 100. And you don't have that committed to memory? F1 was ahead of Handit.

1:22:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Oh, okay. That's right.

1:22:14Sean Fennessey:F1 was also, I believe, ahead of Frankenstein. Okay. And it was also ahead of... That's it.

1:22:21Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

1:22:21Sean Fennessey:I mean, One Battle was my favorite movie of the year. Sinners was my number five. Secret Agent was my number six. And Sentimental Value was my number seven. And Marty was four.

1:22:29Autumn Durald Arkapaw:So like, this is the most I've ever matched.

1:22:33Sean Fennessey:This is the most I've ever matched with the Oscars, like in my life as a fan.

1:22:36Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

1:22:37Sean Fennessey:Because all my -

1:22:38Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Sean Fennessey, this is your life.

1:22:39Sean Fennessey:I know. All my peeps got nominated. Like all my people, you know, I've been tracking the Safdies for 15 years. I've been PTA since I was 12 years old, you know? So this is very strange to be chalk. I am the living embodiment of chalk. Anyway, F1 at 8. Secret Agent at 7.

1:22:58Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Someone's going to make a rude hat with that on it, and then you should wear it. I am the living embodiment of chalk.

1:23:07Sean Fennessey:Did you see that people literally made AI versions of me and Chris in the X-Men costumes that we were talking about? No! On the Oscar snub strapped? Yeah, I'm not going to retweet AI shit, but they used AI to make it. So it was me as Thanos and CR as Cable.

1:23:19Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay.

1:23:19Sean Fennessey:the time traveling what about

1:23:21Autumn Durald Arkapaw:what about some hand drawn you know let's let's put in the work and then I will I if someone actually makes it

1:23:28Sean Fennessey:for real not AI you're asking for free labor you're gonna pay you'll pay for a hand drawn rendition of me as Thanos holding the infinity gauntlet with all of the gems

1:23:41Autumn Durald Arkapaw:but it also needs to be who is Chris?

1:23:44Sean Fennessey:Cable okay

1:23:46Autumn Durald Arkapaw:yeah

1:23:46Sean Fennessey:and you're gonna be Kitty Pryor

1:23:49Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I'm not a part of this.

1:23:50Sean Fennessey:You're a squirrel girl.

1:23:51Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I'm not. Did you know that Juliette Lippman is really into the X-Men? Who isn't? Me. I know about them, but I only learned this recently. And it was a little bit like, you know, I've been in this relationship, you know, this friendship and partnership with this person for 10 years. And then it's like when I married Zach and then he started golfing. I was like, I just I didn't. This wasn't part of the terms.

1:24:15Sean Fennessey:I think you are maybe the only exception in my life in people that I fuck with who are not into X-Men like if you're not into X-Men we're not friends

1:24:22Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I'm not not into them I just

1:24:24Sean Fennessey:they are also a portal to understanding yourself as an adolescent and she probably watched X-Men the animated series as we all did as young kids except for you because you were like playing the piano or something whatever the fuck you were doing excuse me something where you alienated yourself from the world by being alone

1:24:40Autumn Durald Arkapaw:yeah it wasn't by choice it was someone else putting me in the room, but that's fine. Secret agent. Imagine if you just

1:24:47Sean Fennessey:got into X-Men, how much better would our life be?

1:24:51Autumn Durald Arkapaw:So the one guy... No, don't even do this.

1:24:54Sean Fennessey:We can't even do the game where you remember the thing, but you don't know the thing. Not for X-Men. It's too important for you to be like, there's a guy and there's another guy. Well, of course. That's why we're getting these Avengers films. They're going to find a way to launch the next phase so that we can get X-Men.

1:25:09Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And this is all because Disney bought Fox.

1:25:12Sean Fennessey:Exactly right. I think you could make the case that the single biggest reason they bought Fox was for the X-Men.

1:25:18Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Is that worth it to you, Sean Fennessey?

1:25:21Sean Fennessey:If the movies suck, no.

1:25:22Autumn Durald Arkapaw:They killed the whole studio. Right, but if the movies are worth it, is it worth killing a whole studio? Well.

1:25:31Sean Fennessey:I like an X-Men movie. You know, and if you do it right... Okay, all right.

1:25:36Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I'll consider it.

1:25:37Sean Fennessey:I don't appreciate... You love corporations. The shrinking of the... You think they're people. No, I don't think that there's shrinking of the number of studios. The job loss is abhorrent. And I reject it.

1:25:48Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay.

1:25:48Sean Fennessey:I have no control over it.

1:25:50Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Is F1 above the secret agent in our power rankings?

1:25:53Sean Fennessey:It's at number eight. I think, is the secret agent ahead of Marty Supreme? Which might win zero Oscars.

1:25:59Autumn Durald Arkapaw:But might also win Best Actor.

1:26:01Sean Fennessey:No.

1:26:02Autumn Durald Arkapaw:So?

1:26:03Sean Fennessey:Frankenstein is going to win probably two Oscars. Okay. Maybe one. But probably two.

1:26:09Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay.

1:26:10Sean Fennessey:Does that go ahead of Marty?

1:26:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:probably, which is sad.

1:26:14Sean Fennessey:I think it goes Marty at six, Frankenstein at five, and then I think we stick with Sentimental Value. Or is Sentimental Value ahead of Hamnet? Or just because it has Best Actress, it's good?

1:26:28Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Is Hamnet going to win anything besides Best Actress? I'm thinking aloud right now.

1:26:33Sean Fennessey:Almost certainly not.

1:26:34Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah. So, and Sentimental Value, were favoring an international feature. We are. And possibly in a supporting category.

1:26:49Sean Fennessey:Could be Stellan Skarsgård, could be Inga Epsot or Lilius, could be Rachel Kemp herself, Elle Fanning.

1:26:55Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think it's going to happen in Supporting Actress, but there is a lot of affection for Joachim Trier. I don't think he's going to pick up original screenplay or director, though. Nor do I. I think sentimental value for Hamnet 3 Sinners 2 1 Battle 1 I agree okay

1:27:19Sean Fennessey:that's it

1:27:20Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I think we learned a lot about ourselves which is what and the X-Men

1:27:24Sean Fennessey:I think where would I where listeners send some suggestions at AK Dobbins really on any social media platform you like

1:27:31Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I look at all of them

1:27:34Sean Fennessey:where to start with X-Men because you're a reader I have seen you're a reader oh you want me to read

1:27:39Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah. Yeah. Like, you watch Spider-Verse.

1:27:44Sean Fennessey:You watch Spider-Verse with an open heart. And you were moved and impressed by the use of color, the dynamism. That is true. Comic books are, again, another kind of bridge to experiencing cinema and the great works. And the X-Men is like a lot of stuff that you like. It's a coming-of-age story about complicated, stormy young people figuring it out.

1:28:04Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I enjoyed the X-Men films that I have seen, which is...

1:28:08Sean Fennessey:Only the Bryan Singer ones. Those are the ones you like.

1:28:10Autumn Durald Arkapaw:X-Men First Class, which is Inglourious Bastards, but with superheroes. And also with James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender, my guys. I saw the second one. X2. I think I did. I didn't see the last one. I have seen Logan. Okay.

1:28:27Sean Fennessey:Good film.

1:28:28Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And I've seen Deadpool Wolverine.

1:28:32Sean Fennessey:Deadpool and Wolverine. They're not one person fused together.

1:28:36Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Aren't they? Well, in that van sequence. I think they want to be.

1:28:39Sean Fennessey:Yeah, they do. They're very in love.

1:28:42Autumn Durald Arkapaw:And assorted other X-Men cameos throughout this. So I am familiar.

1:28:49Sean Fennessey:I think the original Singer movies are not bad, setting aside the awfulness around Bryan Singer. And in some cases, I love them. In some moments in the movie, I love them, but they never totally got it. And I'm waiting for a movie that will totally get it.

1:29:04Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Okay.

1:29:04Sean Fennessey:And I think it should be Joachim Trier who makes it. just think about what he could do. He is a person who knows how to render that kind of inner turmoil of all the X-Men. They're all kind of struggling with their power and their responsibility. The sense of teamwork and camaraderie. We're all mutants. Thank you. Yeah, it was right there.

1:29:28Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

1:29:29Sean Fennessey:Yeah, and imagine hearing Renata Ranzva say that as Jean Grey. We would all be changed for the good. Okay. My middle name, just putting this on the record, is literally Xavier. I was named after, my middle name is after Professor X. That's fucking beautiful. And also, you do have, you have, he's the dude in the wheelchair.

1:29:46Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Oh, right. Okay. He's not a dude.

1:29:48Sean Fennessey:He's a professor of the school for gifted mutants.

1:29:51Autumn Durald Arkapaw:That's right. But like, what can he do?

1:29:54Sean Fennessey:He's just super smart.

1:29:55Autumn Durald Arkapaw:No, no.

1:29:58Sean Fennessey:He's a telepath. Oh, okay. And he can read the mind.

1:30:05Autumn Durald Arkapaw:That seems loud.

1:30:06Sean Fennessey:And Nito wears that fucking helmet so that Charles can't get, his old friend Charles can't get inside of his head.

1:30:12Autumn Durald Arkapaw:It seems like you're taking on a lot when you can do that. Can you turn it off? Can you only listen to one thing at a time or is it just everyone talking all around you all at once?

1:30:20Sean Fennessey:No, he has extraordinary control over this gift. Oh, okay. But it does haunt him.

1:30:23Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Does he, has he always had control or did he learn that at the school for X-Men?

1:30:29Sean Fennessey:Well, he started the school. I know, but did he also train himself? So I don't think he learned it at the school he started.

1:30:33Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Was there like a Batman McGinn's Liam Neeson thing. What's that guy's... The...

1:30:39Sean Fennessey:Ra's al Ghul? No, there's not a Ra's al Ghul to Xavier, I don't think.

1:30:45Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Well, not yet. Wow.

1:30:47Sean Fennessey:You know, I don't really know a lot about Charles' youth. Oh. But I also don't want, like, the first movie to be like, and then Charles was nine years old and here was his trauma. If they give me that, I'm gonna be fucking pissed. I want brand name, drop me into the yellow and blue suits I want latex on these motherfuckers and I want Xavier in the chair telling them here's how you fight in the danger room that's what I need this is some of the best content I know how to make is talking about what X-Men should be and I feel good about it this has really been a year for my youth seeing all these Star Wars movies now thinking about Avengers Doomsday which I might hate but could lead to good things it's all happening here on The Big Picture that was today's best picture power rankings and some X-Men chatter brought to you by Volkswagen.

1:31:33Sean Fennessey:A lot of these films wouldn't exist today without someone out there striving to chase after their dreams. So consider this a sign. It's time to become the main protagonist in your life and go after what you want. Learn more at VW.com. Okay, Amanda, thank you for indulging all of my childhood fascinations. I learned a lot. X-Men. Mm-hmm. PTA.

1:31:53Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

1:31:53Sean Fennessey:Vampires.

1:31:54Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Yeah.

1:31:56Sean Fennessey:What else?

1:31:56Autumn Durald Arkapaw:Huntington, Long Island.

1:31:58Sean Fennessey:Huntington. What an episode. I know. Jeez, what a... conversation. Now let's go to my conversation with Autumn Duralt-Archipaugh.

1:32:08Sean Fennessey:Autumn Duralt-Archipaugh is here. Very happy to have you. You know, I don't have a lot of cinematographers on the show. And I was curious if you could tell me what the first movie you saw, maybe that didn't make you want to make films, but that had a big emotional impact on you. Yes.

1:32:26Amanda Dobbins:It's interesting you clarify that because they are two different things, right? I think it was The Last Emperor, to be honest. How old were you? I was probably 10 or 9 or something. Actually, my son is 10. So it feels like that zone of a child.

1:32:43Sean Fennessey:Are you showing him things like Bertolucci films?

1:32:46Amanda Dobbins:No, but I did have to watch Ben-Hur the other day because I was doing the extras on the new remaster. And he came in when I was re-watching The Chariot Race. And I'm like, you have to go to bed. And he's like, no, no, I want to finish watching this. And he was mesmerized by it. So that's probably the most adult vintage film that I've let him watch. Interesting. Not full film.

1:33:10Sean Fennessey:What struck you about The Last Emperor?

1:33:12Amanda Dobbins:I feel like I'm always someone who loves scope and, you know, that cinematic phrase. So if something is cinematic, like I love a big camera, a landscape, you know, like I want to feel like I'm making a movie. And that movie felt like that. It was like beyond me. Like I felt like I was, you know, I felt small, you know, and I felt like, what is this world? You know, this child, it felt real. Like that little kid felt like he was really the last emperor.

1:33:40Sean Fennessey:That's really interesting because your last couple of films have been very big in scope, but your early work is not. And I was wondering if you kind of like, I know you didn't set out when you were nine or ten to do this. And did you stumble into it? How would you describe the way you got into this line of work?

1:33:57Amanda Dobbins:I mean, I've always been a photographer. Like early on, I think I always had a camera with me, not knowing that that was a career choice, but just I was very interested in capturing my family and friends. And then it progressed into like, I'd say college, I had a little camcorder, mini TV, and I'd make videos on an iMovie and put music over them. And I still didn't know that that had, you know, it wasn't like a filmmaker type of person. It was just like, I wanted to capture my friends. And it wasn't until later, because I went to LMU for art history, that I decided that I wanted to look further into what the DP was doing because I saw two movies in a genre course, Broadway, Danny Rose, and Raging Bull.

1:34:40Amanda Dobbins:And after that, I was hooked. I'd write a paper on both. And then I started looking into what a DP did or what that meant, and I couldn't really find much. and I took an extension course at UCLA. They had like a night course for like cinematography. That was the first thing my boss bought me that course. I was working in advertising at a desk and he bought me the course to go check it out.

1:35:02Sean Fennessey:Black and white films. Why did those hit? I think, I mean, I just really like,

1:35:08Amanda Dobbins:I remember the faces like in just the world that both of those films built. And if you like look at the extras, like how they curate extras both of those directors um you know they're real people real faces it feels like a real world that they're building um and i'm i'm a sucker for contrast and like you know like lighting as a character so those both of those films i feel

1:35:32Sean Fennessey:like do that really well what happened after the extension course where you're like this i'm going to set myself on a path to doing being someone who does this professionally yeah i mean it was

1:35:41Amanda Dobbins:really like full force I think because you know I went to LMU and that's a school where it's a great school in LA but it's loans right so um and I think you know after that I'm like well I want to learn how to do this and the best place if you don't have family or friends in the business is like look at film schools so I found AFI and I started um working on sets because you can like work for free on their cycle films and so I was a scripty and then a grip and then the kids in the program like you should apply you should apply to this program and so um that's kind of how I had my in and I you know took out some loans and I didn't get in my first year that I applied I got in the second year interesting and so I was just like committed like I really felt like I wanted to do that job um or at least learn it and see if I could succeed you weren't stymied by not getting in the first year um I was I was I mean no one wants to be told no yeah you know and I thought I had a pretty good reel.

1:36:37Amanda Dobbins:Like it was mostly photography. And then I like pretended like I shot stuff and put together like a compilation of shots, make it look like I had a short film. No, I was discouraged, but I still was like, I'm going to do this. And then I found a job because the advice was go get more experience on set. You have no set experience. I think you should go get more experience. So I took a year off and quit my job in advertising. And I found a job as an AC on a documentary TV show called On the Road in America.

1:37:06Sean Fennessey:What's an AC?

1:37:07Amanda Dobbins:Assistant camera. So I was like helping, I wasn't pulling focus because it was on Panasonic like cameras at the time. I was like, you know, giving the DP filters and traveling around and in charge of all the camera equipment, setting up tripods, like kind of like stuff like this, you know, like stuff I could manage, but the focus was autofocus for the operator.

1:37:29Sean Fennessey:I'm always curious about trying to get work when you do this line of work? Because like, how do you, it's not like you're an actor where you are auditioning before a group and there's a call and you come in and you do it. Or if you're a writer director, you create material and you send it off and you hope your agents can get interest from somewhere. For what you do, how do you go from, I went to AFI to, I am not only getting jobs, but making a real living doing what I like. Yeah.

1:37:57Amanda Dobbins:No, it's funny because that's the question. Like if I'm doing Q &As, the students that come and then line up and want to talk, it's always like, how do I get to where you are?

1:38:07Sean Fennessey:Yeah.

1:38:08Amanda Dobbins:Knowing that like, I know you went to school. And it's not, there's no formula, right? It's really about like, I felt like the year that I got in that program, had I gotten in the year before, my life would be completely different. it's the people that you surround yourself with that actually like create that path so the students in the program become your best friends and then when you graduate they're the ones getting you jobs you know it's like I can't do this job um like my classmate was like you know he was working with Gia Coppola he couldn't shoot that day of um like a test shoot he was doing for Franco because he wanted to see like the vibe that she was creating for Palo Alto and so he's like I can't make it.

1:38:49Amanda Dobbins:Can you fill in for me? So I filled in for him. We were shooting like a test shoot soccer, the soccer scene, and we hit it off. And then, you know, she's my best friend, you know? So it's like, it's those little things that create that, you know? So, and then you, you foster that by like, you know, I'm always there for, you know, my friends and you're doing a ton of free work. I mean, it's a lot of free work. You have to be prepared to really just put yourself out there and shoot stuff for free.

1:39:16Sean Fennessey:It's really interesting. I'm curious about the Gia collaborations because you've now worked with her on every film that she's made. And they're very different from Ryan's movies, you know, and it feels like, they feel handheld, they feel much more like grounded and, you know, smaller, like budgetarily at least. So like were those that, you said you were into scope, like you were in a big movie. So how do you like situate yourself? I assume part of it is just like, I really want to get a job and I've connected with someone, but talk about like artistically getting in line with something that isn't exactly how you saw yourself making films.

1:39:52Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, no, it's a good point. Because like, I would say, like I gravitated, like there were like, you know, more indie French films that I think I saw were like Wong Kar-wai films that were like, you knew those were made with a group of people over a very long period of time, probably just running around kind of vibe. But you're not wrong. Like, I do like those bigger scopey movies, but you have to wait for that part of your career to catch up with you because you don't always, you know, it's like the industry sees Palo Alto and then it becomes like, oh, she's, you know, doing the kind of teenage movie and then you're getting offered teenage rom-coms or, you know, you get pigeonholed in that kind of process.

1:40:35Amanda Dobbins:and because we were making that with friends and running around, which is fun. That's kind of how Last Showgirl was made too on a different level. But no, it took me a while to kind of get people to offer me other stuff and then that would be a Loki. Then Loki comes and finally it has some scope. Those are big episodes, big budget. We could play around. So I was wanting that before I got offered that, But I also had a son, so I took a little bit of time off. So yeah, you're not wrong. I was trying to get out of that teenage more indie.

1:41:12Sean Fennessey:That's interesting. I have a couple of questions about Loki. So I feel like there's an agreed upon visual style to some extent in that world of storytelling. And there's a larger apparatus, I assume, for creative approval than when you're working with someone like Gia, who you know and you're working with a small crew and it's a smaller budget. even though you want to get bigger in scope, like how do you get comfortable working differently?

1:41:38Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. I mean, anyone who works in film, I mean, I'm generalizing, but it's like low budget, big budget. There's never enough time and there's never enough money. A lot of the job on big budget stuff, you have more management, right? Because there's more, there's more money, there's more management, you know? And also it's like, you know, you have a bigger SFX team, or maybe there's more visual effects, or maybe you're traveling a whole crew somewhere like Puerto Rico and you have to shoot a big scene there, you know? So it's, you know, I love that when you start out in indie, you have to make something from nothing look amazing.

1:42:15So you're really good at like, you know, knowing what you want and telling someone else what you

1:42:20Amanda Dobbins:want quickly. And in order to like have, you know, a small amount of resources, but make something look like it's more expensive. So if you dabble in that pool for a while, you get very good at that, right? Like, you know how to use the sun, you know how to schedule the day in order to get the best shot. You know how to tell people what you're looking for. You know, you walk in a room and I can tell you like, what's the scene about? And I can really figure out, you know, what it's going to take to make that look good. And so then you jump to bigger budget stuff. It's like, it's really like management and you have to, you know, there's money on the line, but it's also you're answering to studio whereas before on small stuff you're more in charge like you're you have all the power to make those decisions um but that was a really good project where we could kind of reinvent the wheel like you know they were doing the three streamers um you know the whole world could be new tom was a real like proponent in like let's do something great let's let's really like break the mold here um so that helps when you have someone that's backing you as lovely as him um so yeah i I mean, it's a lot of management.

1:43:24Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. It's something that no one wants to talk about. It's like, oh, creative. It's amazing.

1:43:27Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I mean, you just have such an interesting stark contrast. It almost feels like it's like phase one and phase two, to use the terminology of the MCU. Before we get into Sinners and your relationship with Ryan, you know, you have two credits with Khalil Joseph and Spike on docs. And I really like both of those docs that you worked on. And I'm curious, you know, and they're very different.

1:43:50Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

1:43:50Sean Fennessey:Khalil's film and the Beastie Boys movie. So how did you get involved in those? And, you know, is that something that you also are still interested in pursuing or, you know, what's your relationship to documentary in general?

1:44:01Amanda Dobbins:Well, that's cool. Yeah. I worked with Khalil. Again, I met Khalil through a classmate at AFI. And we did a lot of stuff. Like he was doing the Arcade Fire kind of documentary, but we were covering various concerts within that year. so I did the LA concert actually Lowell Crawley did the London one I think Malik Saeed did the Montreal one and then I did Haiti and the LA one and so

1:44:31Sean Fennessey:that's an insane trio by the way yeah and back then it was you know

1:44:36Amanda Dobbins:these are people that I think I might have known Lowell because like we would exchange messages and stuff because we had some mutual friends I have yet to meet Malik

1:44:46Sean Fennessey:He's like a mystery, man. Well, I messaged him. His first film credit in like 20 years last year. It's crazy.

1:44:52Amanda Dobbins:No, he's a goat for sure. And I almost had a chance to meet him recently. But so it was really cool because if you watch the whole thing, they're all very different shows, especially the Haiti one. And so I love that stuff that I did with Khalil. He also creates a family. You feel like you're in a community. I'm good friends with Bradford Young. He's someone who recommended me to Ryan. And so Bradford's earlier work with Khalil, there's some Say George, I don't know if you've seen this stuff, it's beautiful. And I remember when I saw it, I was like, who shot that? And then the producer was like, I'll connect you.

1:45:26Amanda Dobbins:And that was the first time I was connected with Bradford after I saw that work because it was so singular and I needed to know who shot it. And then obviously Bradford. but so I love doing that stuff you know I met a lot of great people and traveling with them and creating like communities with these people that I was making stuff with and then you know Spike with Gia like I obviously he was aware of my work with her and so I met Spike and I did both of those together like we I knew that I was signing on to both and they were one after the other and I actually just did a commercial with Spike so I reunited with him recently for Instacart for the Super Bowl with Ben Stiller.

1:46:05Amanda Dobbins:So it's just, it's, you're working with people you want to be friends with, honestly. I mean, that's the way that I feel. They're people that I would hang out with outside of work. We get along well. They're very, like, yeah, to use the word again, like singular. It's like these people have a very clear vision of how they like to do things. And I love that, you know.

1:46:28Sean Fennessey:I mean, I hope this is received in the right way. cinematographers and directors and their relationships are always really interesting sometimes they're like true partnerships yes and they share and sometimes they have a kind of adversarial quality that does create something special at least in my understanding of movie history how do you what do you want what do you pursue like do you want a little tension a little friction do you want it to just be we are same page lockstep all the way through like how do you think about it?

1:46:57Amanda Dobbins:I mean, I feel like I have made choices with people that are good people, that respect the crew, that respect the crew's time, that bring me on to break bread because they know that I will add to that vision and have something to offer. So it's a very kind of good environment, you know? I mean, we're in the thick of it. Like when I'm doing movies with Ryan, And, you know, these are big projects. So, you know, stuff comes up where it's like, we're in war, you know, not together. We're trying to make the movie, but we're always on the same page. I'm there to support that person. That's my job and their vision.

1:47:40Amanda Dobbins:And so if I pick people that have visions that align with mine, it goes better for me. Not to say I haven't done projects with, I won't name those, you know, projects, but with people where it did not go great. And then you don't work with those people again. Right, right. Or you just know it's not the right fit because it's too much of a time commitment in your own personal self and sanity, I feel like, to work with someone you don't like.

1:48:07Sean Fennessey:I know it I'm curious about what happens before you start shooting with a movie like Sinners you could speak to this for Wakanda Forever 2 though I know it's a somewhat different experience but I know that I know the story of it being presented as a 16mm project and then that changing at a certain point but for you maybe personally singularly individually and then also you and Ryan like what are you doing before the shoot begins yeah I mean

1:48:36Amanda Dobbins:because I met him on Wakanda like there is no movie that's in my opinion that's gonna be bigger than that I mean maybe our like if we do another movie because he's just always doing he's always up in the ante every time I get a phone call it's like we're always like we're doing that what um so but on that project it lasted a year long and you know if you which you've seen it and so it's like you know we did underwater you know we traveled a bit on that project I mean we were doing so much stuff on that movie and it lasted a year long. So it's like you really get to know somebody and like how they like to make films.

1:49:12Amanda Dobbins:And we make those films with the same team. So we got very close and we, you know, and there were emotionally, that film was a kind of a big deal with for Ryan. And so it was like, you, we were all really there for him and each other. And so it was a great experience, but it was a lot of work. It was a lot of hard work. And so in going into Sinners, it's funny because I always say like, oh, Sinners might have been harder. And Ryan's like, really? But I think for me, it's like I care so much about him that it's always the first thing that for me is like him telling me what the movie means to him and what he's after.

1:49:47Amanda Dobbins:And so it's as simple as that. It's like a phone call he gives me. I read the script. I send him an email because we're not living in the same town. And I kind of give my thoughts. I read the center script the night before I shot Showgirl. And so I wanted to get all my thoughts out because that's when he sent it to me. And then we had a phone call after I finished that because it was like an 18-day shoot, so it wasn't very long. And he just talks to me. He tells me what's important to him. We talk about character arc. He usually gives me a reference that means something that's very important. But that's the call.

1:50:22Amanda Dobbins:It's like he's that kind of filmmaker. it's like it's all inside of him and he's so um unique in how he writes and the characters he creates that like i want to hear what he what what it means to him and so i'll take notes i'll write that stuff down and it happened on wakanda wakanda too like um there are a lot of through lines and kind of things that were important to him in that film like the female characters were were more prominent in this round of film and um migration and so all these things i take notes um yeah

1:50:53Sean Fennessey:what is that how much of how instructive is that script for you in terms of like the moves the look for sinners in particular you know sort of like is he describing on the page because i haven't read the screenplay where the camera's moving where it's going what we're seeing in those moments in a specific way that you want or that then becomes a discussion point between the two of you i think i'm very curious about that partnership and kind of landing on what the film becomes versus what he puts on the page at the start um no there isn't and it's interesting

1:51:23Amanda Dobbins:because i just did a q a a crafts q a and hannah buechler who's his um uh production designer who's like a sister to me she was mentioning that uh since because she's done everything with them since the first time there's less description and she was like i wonder if that's because like it's a you know we're a team now and like you know there's you know it's also when you probably start out maybe there's more description description it does feel like every department

1:51:47Sean Fennessey:head now has been consistent over the last couple of movies too or it's like there you guys must have like a like a hive mind a little bit with how you're working on the films no it's very nice i mean um like you have to really find your your your place you know like in in the world but like

1:52:04Amanda Dobbins:if your world is filmmaking it's like it's very important like i feel like i thrive in the right environment like you know i've put myself in in a place where you know um i can do my best work and I always tell students, I was like, go look for that place because you don't know what it is until you find it and you might be in that place and it's not the right place but you have to take a jump. So with him, I do feel like, you know, it's always so fleshed out. Like the characters feel so full and realized, which is very nice. You feel like you can't put it down when you read his scripts. Like they're very good.

1:52:41Amanda Dobbins:He's a very good screenwriter. It's funny. I'm always surprised by that. After I read, I'm like, damn, that was a good script. Because, yeah, I don't get that many of them. And so I'll text him like, you're really good at this. And very genuinely. So, no, it's, you know, it's not in there. But he's very clear. Like, he loves to move the camera, as do I. And so when we're in our prep and we're boarding, he likes to board everything. And we do previs on, you know, more complex things. It's all there. Like, in prep, we go over it. and you know for instance the grocery store one or like that's something that he wanted so that it was a very fluid shot that could show you know the black side of the street and the white side of the street so that's like a shot for instance that um you know we talk about because he you know wants to do that in prep and i have to figure out how to make that execute it logistically because it's very complex scene with lighting and camera um the one or inside the juke that's something that's written it was written in like a paragraph in italics but we figure it out in prep Like, you know, he's like, I would like it to be one fluid shot.

1:53:42Amanda Dobbins:You know, so what tool do you think, you know, we're using there? And, you know, it's a discussion. So stuff like that. It's all very much like certain things I think he has in his mind are oners or shots. And then we discuss it.

1:53:57Sean Fennessey:Do you like a harder sequence like that, a more challenging sequence? I do, yes. Just because it's a problem solving thing that is fun? Like what aspect of it do you enjoy?

1:54:07Amanda Dobbins:I mean, I love stuff. And he's someone that I think I thrive in that environment where it's like, the more difficult, the better. Like, I'm very technical, and I love working things out. And I love that it ultimately doesn't look technical. Does that make sense?

1:54:22Sean Fennessey:Yeah, of course. That's how the movies feel. They feel like you were inside them.

1:54:26Amanda Dobbins:Yes, exactly. I want people to feel it. Like, I want you to watch it and to feel it here. And so all the stuff that goes into that takes such a big team. So many people working it out. But if you've done your job really well, then they don't feel like it's a shot in that way. They don't feel the hand of the creator. So he's like that. He's always like, we're going to shoot large format and Orca's going to jump over the freeway and we're going to have a fight sequence. It's like everyone's going to act underwater and we're going to figure it out. And I'm like, game on. I have a really good crew.

1:55:01Amanda Dobbins:and so it's fun. It's a fun job when you have someone like that that wants to open up the box.

1:55:10Sean Fennessey:I know you're very technologically minded when it comes to a lot of this and I said before we started like I would love for you to talk to me and the listeners of the show like I'm 11. So like I know anamorphic lenses is really important to you. What does that mean and why is that important is something because you can speak to its value but But help us understand on a really ground level why this matters to the film and what it accomplishes.

1:55:36Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. No, I'll speak to it if you're 11. Because I think even till this day, like I do a lot of commercials and I love the anamorphic format. And then you'll say, let's shoot this commercial anamorphic. And the agency won't understand. Or it's too complex. Or VFX will push back or whatever. And it's like, it's an understanding of something that they're making more technical than it needs to be. it's a for me it's a feeling it's a lens it's a particular format but it's a lens that makes me feel differently and that's why I like to use it and that's where it came from originally with me with 70s films you know um like if I saw Manhattan it's like why does that look Why does Manhattan look different to me?

1:56:18Amanda Dobbins:It was shot in anamorphic. And so for me early on, I think like Vilmos, Zygmunt, Laszlo Kovacs, like these films, like I was watching these films and they felt vintage, they felt different, they felt textured. And so then I was like, what is that? So at film school, I would take out an anamorphic lens, and I was shooting it mostly on film, 35 millimeter. So it's a squeeze factor. So it's taking a lens and squeezing it so it fits squeezed, like if you're 11. So just like we're squeezing the image onto a film gate, and then we're unsqueezing it in projection. So you can do this in digital as well, obviously.

1:56:59Amanda Dobbins:You unsqueeze it digitally instead of you're not unsqueezing it in projection. So it just has a different feeling. I'm getting twice the width, so I'm getting more field of view in the width. And it feels scopey. It's why they say shoot it in scope.

1:57:16Sean Fennessey:What about the edge of the frame? That's something that I'm always... Oh, well, that's... That kind of effect that you get while watching it. What creates that? Why is that interesting to you visually?

1:57:25Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, I mean, I do stuff to my lenses to make, if you're talking about more fall-off or aberration, field curvature to get nerdy. um all of these things like i'll work with panavision um i'm like 90 percent you know my whole career i've shot with panavision glass and early on in film school because i liked this anamorphic format and also we're talking about aspect ratio right so it's like you know spherically you can get a widescreen aspect ratio but like i tend to like a movie that has more width and so you're talking about black bars on top and bottom right if you're looking at your tv that's a 178 to 1 ratio.

1:58:02Amanda Dobbins:So like it's going to fill your TV screen. That ratio was created for television. I don't like that ratio because it's not a real film ratio. But that's another conversation.

1:58:13Sean Fennessey:Why were our TVs not created in the same way as our movie screens?

1:58:16Amanda Dobbins:Well, that's the thing to get people. Yeah, you're staying home for a certain ratio. So 16 by 9, which is 178. So those two ways you can say it. So yeah, so with anamorphic, I would take out anamorphic lenses from PandaVision. They were more expensive at the time, you know, so I couldn't afford renting them. But they would give me different series, so different flavors. And what I mean by that is like some were created in the 70s, some were created in the 80s. So all these different glass have different coatings on them, you know, chemical coatings that they don't really use anymore, which create different refractions of light, different bouquet, different flares, like color of the flare, like all this stuff.

1:58:56Amanda Dobbins:and so I got really used to knowing the different sets and series of lenses at Panavision and also just falling in love with glass and knowing what that means and so a lot of the stuff on the edges like I'll detune the glass so that it has more fall off and brings your eye more to the center because I center punch most that's what does that mean I always put the character in the center of frame it's a stronger frame for me it's how I like to to frame but also like you have to chase that. So if I'm framing you and you're going to get up from this table and you're going to walk over there to Jack and you're going to do something like that whole, if I'm following you and panning with you, I'm going to keep you always in the center.

1:59:38Amanda Dobbins:And then say someone comes into the frame and you're now shooting an over, I'm still going to keep you in the center. So the shoulder and the over is going to be far left or far right, but I'm always going to keep you in the center. And for me, it's an elegant way of framing, but it's also something that feels right to me.

1:59:55Sean Fennessey:That's such a definitive choice in the film that like, is that something that you're verbally discussing with Ryan? Because that approach creates real iconography. Like for somebody like Michael B. Jordan, it makes him like more of a movie star when you're always center framing someone. You know that every movement that they make, we are trailing them in the middle. So that's such an artistic choice. And then is that something that you guys are discussing? Is it just understood because you're both, you know, film artists and you understand the technology better than someone who's just watching a movie and enjoying it?

2:00:28Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, I mean, I do it. It's it comes like it's a personal choice. Like I can't now I can't get out of it. Like this is like when if I have a B camera operator, like I'm like, you know, I'm like on the comms yelling at them like you have to fix that. But I work with the same people so they know about my center punching. and then when they go work for someone else it messes the other person up that doesn't want that right right um no i think on panther would be our first time doing it um you know so he he's familiar with that you know it's something that i like to do and you know when you're starting to work with someone for the first time and you're doing tests or um but they also they see your work you know so it's you know you're being hired um for your expertise and your your taste so i'm sure ryan's very smart so it's like you know he knows that's something that i like but when he doesn't want that then he'll tell me i remember there was a frame that we were doing with imbaku and shiri in the forest and he asked me to um put her like they were more weighted on the left side you know of the frame because he wanted to fill imbaku's weight like imposing on her it was such a beautiful choice and i remember when he came up to me he's like you know let's adjust this and I was like huh you know like my because I have to because I have this tick um and it was beautiful and it was funny after we shot it I was like that was really good and I went up to him and I was like that was amazing and I remember if you watch that scene back I should text it to you that frame um it's very important and it was a really cool choice um so there's those those those kind of conversations you'll always have with like if you want to adjust it from that um for you know bolder choice um you do it um but yeah it's it's it's how I like to frame to be honest it's

2:02:11Sean Fennessey:really cool but it is like definitional you know it doesn't it doesn't just become your style but it becomes the style of the film in a way that maybe it wasn't even the original intent but only you are bringing that to it so that's just like incredible detail it works well with this like

2:02:23Amanda Dobbins:two ratio thing as well too because um can you yeah i wanted to ask you about that so it's imax 65 and panavision 70 well it's so it's ultra the the phrase and this is really proprietary toward to them when they made it in the 50s, Ultra Panavision 70. So the 70 comes from the film projection, right? That's different from Super. Well, Super Panavision is a different format. That's a 2.20 to 1 different lens. So the Ultra Panavision 70 is an anamorphic format. So it's a 1.3 squeeze lens. So that's just the math of the squeeze. And then when you unsqueeze it, it gives you a 2.76 to 1 aspect ratio.

2:03:03Amanda Dobbins:And so that is proprietary to Panavision. So that's a system so it's like if you shoot like hateful eight shot ultra panavision 70 so if you're going to put on a poster for instance um because that's what happens and that's so wide it's very wide yes so but is imax is tall exactly so um if i'm center punching you know when i'm shooting and it's 65 millimeter even though it's coined with the 70 um projection so it's 65 millimeter 5 perf. And then we also shot 65 millimeter, same film stock, 15 perf for IMAX. So it's taller. But if I'm center weighting the character in the frame and the crosshair of the 1-4-3 aspect ratio, which is the tall aspect ratio, when I go to do my 2-7-6 extraction, the person is still centered in the frame, right?

2:03:51Amanda Dobbins:And you're cropping the top and bottom. So it's very helpful if you do center punch and you're really elegant about chasing that, is that when you go to do your extraction, for all the viewers that view the 276, because that's most 90 % of the theaters.

2:04:05Sean Fennessey:Typical laser projection. Exactly.

2:04:06Amanda Dobbins:You're not having to do too much adjustment. Like, obviously, we did, you know, when you do your QC and your DCP and you have to do pan and scan, you know, if you have to find the frame and make sure that, like, if I chop the 276, that I'm not chopping, like, Jack's head off, you know.

2:04:22Sean Fennessey:Is that something that you knew? Does that inform the center framing in a way where you're like, if we're going to do this audacious kind of double format approach to it. There's only kind of one way to shoot the movie, like where there have been other ways to have done it to accomplish that. So you're still getting enough in the frame no matter how it's being projected. I mean, I guess it's a bonus

2:04:42Amanda Dobbins:that I love to do that, right? And it works out. But like I operate a camera and I have a crazy ground glass, right? So if I'm shooting IMAX, in my ground glass, I have 190, which is the digital IMAX projection, which is not your full, right? If you went to CityWalk or if you go to Burbank Town you know you're getting the 190 um and so i had the 143 the 190 the 276 i also think i had ticks in there for 239 which is irrelevant but they were there confusing you know this is a lot this is a

2:05:14Sean Fennessey:lot i mean it is like a fascinating series of choices that you know i've seen the movie in a couple different formats i've actually not i've seen it at home but not on typical like amc laser projection i i've been able to see it i think in 70 and in imax and did you go to city walk

2:05:33Amanda Dobbins:i saw it at the imax headquarters oh you did okay so you went to i'm very spoiled and lucky

2:05:38Sean Fennessey:that i could see it there i know that's where you guys tested it right exactly so that was a nice

2:05:42Amanda Dobbins:um so yeah sit up top and in the center not in the front i sat center right which is my preference

2:05:48Sean Fennessey:okay um like back center right okay yeah every seat's kind of not bad there like no it's like I always say it's the best movie theater in America, but not a lot of people get to go there, so I don't have to brag too much. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, all of this is simultaneously very confusing and very interesting. And, you know, Ryan has been such an advocate for format and the way that you see something and helping people understand. It's been kind of a signature aspect of promoting the movie and even the awards campaign. And I think it's good to make fans a little bit nerdier about these things.

2:06:20Sean Fennessey:You know, I assume this has been fun for you to also, you know, explain the work that you do in a way that like most DPs never get to.

2:06:28Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm here, right? Like, I feel like it's one of those things where you see now on like Instagram where like they want to know more. Like they don't just want to know like, oh, you know, the things that, you know, the normal BTS. It's like people are becoming their own filmmakers now. Like the tools are tinier. They are being social and putting people out there making little films with smaller cameras. So even though you're making a big film, they want to know how you made that film. And so it's been fun to talk about. And then Ryan also cares about the audience. So he wants to put that information in their hands so they can go and make choices on projection.

2:07:06Amanda Dobbins:Because it does mean, you know, if I want to see the movie and I want to see exactly what I saw, then I have to go to CityWalk to see it. Or, you know, if you see the IMAX headquarters screening. but otherwise everyone's seeing a crop version which is a different feeling, different film.

2:07:21Sean Fennessey:Is it painful for you to watch it that way?

2:07:23Amanda Dobbins:No, because I love like for instance the Dolby pass that we did. You know, higher contrast ratio so like deep blacks, beautiful projection and I really like that and the Dolby is only 276.

2:07:36Sean Fennessey:Interesting. Yeah. What was the most challenging sequence, image, moment in the movie to actually capture, to pull off?

2:07:47Amanda Dobbins:Um, I've answered that a lot because I think people think I'm going to say something else. But for me, um, it's really the ending. I think for me that the most challenging stuff is the stuff that has the most VFX because I'm not, you know, it's, it's something that I can't control in the moment.

2:08:07Sean Fennessey:Um, I wanted to ask you about that because I know Wakanda forever also had it, but the The movie almost like, I'm sure you didn't shoot linearly, but the final 10 minutes is very different visually. Daytime, VFX shots in the frame. So what's hard about that? Why is that so tough?

2:08:23Amanda Dobbins:Well, actually, not the daytime stuff. The fight in the river when he is in flames. So obviously, but funny enough, or not funny enough, but we did shoot. SFX had a guy in stunts, had a guy in fire suit. so someone was on fire in that pool of water and we did shoot it as a reference right because then they have to manipulate it and we did a pass with Jack and then we did a pass with stunts and then we put everything together and that's what becomes a VFX shot so I think for me I always want that stuff to look as real as possible now like no one's going to shoot a guy burning alive obviously but that would be that would be the way to get the best looking thing is doing everything for real

2:09:09Sean Fennessey:they used to do pretty close Yeah, yeah.

2:09:10Amanda Dobbins:Someone's like, I'll kind of burn myself for this. But no, it's like, so I just want to make sure that the audience is always in it and nothing is broken, right? So that is where I put the most pressure on myself to make sure that I work with our VFX supervisor, Michael Rollin. We're close. We met on Panther. He did our second unit. He was our second unit supervisor. So we have a very close working relationship and it's always rooted in as much as in camera as possible, as much as in camera reference to give him as possible. So that ultimately the image looks as real as possible. And I don't feel the hand of this like VFX, you know, hand.

2:09:47Amanda Dobbins:So that scene, it's also a night shoot, which is very difficult. We had the structure of like when the sun rises, we have to wrap. So we're always chasing that right in time. And, you know, when you do stunts and something really complex like that, wires and all that stuff that we had to do, it takes a lot of time and can be very tedious. So that was the hardest scene for me, I think. And mostly just because there was a lot of elements that needed him and then the sunrise.

2:10:15Sean Fennessey:I just asked Paul Thomas Anderson this and I'm wondering how you would answer it. There are a few moments in the movie that I would describe as ecstatic. Certainly, though, I lied to you, moment that you described earlier, the sort of traveling through the musical history at the Juke Joint. The Rocky Road to Dublin sequence, I think, is also similarly, like, kind of fills you up. How do you know when you're on set that you're kind of getting it? You know, that you're getting the idea that Ryan has, the vision that you have for it, the collaboration. All the departments are feeling excited about what they have.

2:10:50Sean Fennessey:The actors feel good. And you're like, we got it right on this take, on this day? Like, how do you know?

2:10:58Amanda Dobbins:You just know. What does that mean? I think, well, there's layers to that, right? So it's like, if you put yourself in a community of filmmakers where you guys have the same taste and you're after the same vision, that helps, right? Because I know Ryan really well and I know what he likes and I know what he doesn't like. And I know that it's all rooted in the emotion of something. And as an operator, like I know when that's coming like getting you know when the odd when it's getting across to the audience like I know in my heart I know in my eye like I know when I see it I'm in the church I'm operating the crane I'm seeing Saul give that performance with with Miles and I know like I can see it because I'm looking at it through an eyepiece or on a monitor and you feel it and it's as simple as that like when you're working with this caliber of actors and you know how Ryan works with them on set like you can feel it you feel it in the space and you know when you know the take that's right like ultimately like in editorial um because that process is you know after you know i i shoot it um i'm always excited to see him and michael chauver's pass of something because it's always beautiful and you know i feel the weight of it is much more than me doing like multiple takes

2:12:13Sean Fennessey:and knowing which take is great are you ever surprised by what they choose um i was i don't

2:12:18Amanda Dobbins:know on this film was so elegant i you know i was just i loved every take and i loved every scene i think most of the movie got used i think there's probably a couple things that are on the dvd thing um but no it was it was it was just beautiful like this was a great film and you you knew it on set that it was great you knew it was special you didn't know what was going to happen ultimately like what has happened um but yeah you know like the rocky road to dublin like people are bringing their a-game you know um and ryan's very excited you know he's running around um again with the sun like we had to rush because the sun was coming up so um but we got it you know there were things that ryan wanted like you know obviously we tipped down to his feet so he'll you know he's watching he's right there next to the to the lens um with the operator so if it's on steadicam like i'm watching on a monitor and talking to my operator um but yeah i mean it's it's a feeling one thing i was curious to hear you speak about talked to our friend van about this before we were just

2:13:16Sean Fennessey:talking about the way that this studio looks and is lit. But like different faces need to be lit differently. And there has to be like a real sensitivity to the way that different actors with different coloring have to be shot. So how do you know to have the right sensitivity to that? And how do you balance what the actor wants with what the filmmaker wants with what you want? And what is the right middle ground there? Because obviously, especially well-known actors, you know, I have a lot of sensitivities to these things. Yeah, I mean, every film's different.

2:13:46Amanda Dobbins:So if I'm doing like, for example, with Pamela, I'll just start there and then I'll go into the other one.

2:13:55Sean Fennessey:Pamela Anderson, yeah.

2:13:55Amanda Dobbins:Right? That was a movie that we were making. She wasn't wearing makeup. She trusted G and I. There was some makeup, like Jamie had a look, a vibe, Jamie Lee Curtis. But like, and then, you know, Dave Bautista, he had a wig, obviously. And so there were certain looks, but like there was a trust there with Pamela that she just wanted to be herself and raw. So like, that's lovely. Then there's the other side of that where it's like, and I'm not sure I've, you know, I've mostly maybe done it more on commercial work. If you have someone that wants to be lit a specific way, and then you're going to have, you know, a talk about it as a DP.

2:14:34Amanda Dobbins:That's difficult, right? I can say it's someone who's older that wants to be filled in and lit, you know, a completely different way that is different than the world you're creating on set. And that's hard, right? Because it's like I'm always going to think about the story and the world I'm creating on set and then try and make that person look good within that same framework. But if I have to light someone completely separate from everybody else, it's not going to fill of the same world. And you've seen those movies, right, where you're just like, oh, now we're in that zone.

2:15:03Sean Fennessey:There's Vaseline on this lens.

2:15:05Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. Why? Or just, yeah, it's like this person is high key lit, but then the guy isn't. And it's like, well, what are they? What pool of light is this person? You can always tell.

2:15:12Sean Fennessey:Yes.

2:15:13Amanda Dobbins:So not my favorite. And then there's this movie where it's like, you know, Ryan is very trusting. You know, he knows how much I love lighting and how much I like it to be a character. But also like top light. I really like top light. And if I'm doing night exterior, like I want to use a top lit source that recreates the moon. especially if you're in the middle of nowhere in the 1930s that's what's going to be lighting these people but then you get you know you're going to get a darker eye and everyone has to be okay with that there's a lot of hats in the film everyone has to be okay with that but I am shooting a horror vampire movie so if I'm getting a call from someone saying like oh people's eyes are looking too dark it's like I am shooting a vampire horror movie and Ryan and I are on the you know we're on the same page as far as like what that means for the film and that, you know, having people fall in and out of shadow is a beautiful thing and trusting that and trusting that like, you know, I like to light black people in a certain way that it makes them look beautiful.

2:16:13Amanda Dobbins:And I don't feel like to make somebody that's darker skin look beautiful, I have to like shit a lot of light on them, like over light them because someone's afraid that they're going to go into darkness because there's reflective qualities of, you know, darker skin that are also beautiful. And so there's all these things that come up for sure, but you have to just be brave about it and say like, this is the vision and the people around you that are going to be like, you know, wary of that. You have to just say, I got this. Like, this is the right call.

2:16:43Sean Fennessey:That makes a lot of sense. Hearing you describe it as a vampire horror movie, was there a movie, maybe just for you or maybe between you and Ryan that you discussed that was like the most useful reference for how it should look? The thing.

2:16:56Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. Well, I think it's for how it should look, he gave me like, I mean, we work in it. It's like, I don't feel like him and I are always like, this is how the movie should look. Like example A, you know, because we work more from here, right? It finds itself a little bit differently because I'm so much a person that loves to work with the designer and the costume designer like Ruth and Hannah. and we're all such a collaborative team that we're building a space that feels real and is referenced from the 30s now it's more stylized right and then you have you take um liberties there but um the thing is like one of his favorite films he brought it up i love that film also anamorphic um the tension it creates it's moody um it's textured so all of those i draw from all of that right it's not that we're made that's like the reference um but um it's a reference for lots of different things um and then the photographs that he gave me were black and white photographs from Eudora Welty that was my biggest draw um but it wasn't for lighting like I feel like I create I feel like I have to create that with the designer a little bit because you know we're making it out of nothing you know she built every set so are those photographs like out

2:18:09Sean Fennessey:of creating a sense of reality or authenticity or like what is it that is communicating?

2:18:14Amanda Dobbins:I mean, it's a feeling, right? There's so much humanity in those photographs that he sent me. After I got the book, you know, it's like this one moment in time that feels so special and it's real, right? So you're looking at something that, you know, this woman was walking around, she was a short story writer in 1930s and it was all there for her. Like it was happening before her eyes. And, you know, it's like, I always thrive off of looking at photography references because they're real people in real spaces. And that's what I'm doing. We're playing make-believe. Like, let's, you know, just be real here.

2:18:46Amanda Dobbins:It's like storytelling, but like, it's all make-believe. And I need to make it so real that you believe that it's true. Like, you believe Michael's two people. You believe he's a vampire. You believe cornbread's out there. You know, like, these are, have to feel like real people. And so if everyone's doing their job at a really high level, it does feel like that photograph. And so that's what I'm after. I'm trying to make it like as good as that photograph that Ryan was like, because that's what he liked about the photographs. It was a world that, you know, felt really like his uncle's world, you know, when he was listening to the blues music on the porch.

2:19:20Sean Fennessey:Just hearing you say the thing immediately reminded me of the scene where Cornbread's at the juke joint door. And I was like, that's the thing scene in the movie, you know, where you're just like, what is, what is the truth of what is happening inside of this person?

2:19:31Amanda Dobbins:That was scary when we shot that, dude. It was scary.

2:19:33Sean Fennessey:It's really, I mean, Omar's so good. Because, you know, I'm operating, right?

2:19:36Amanda Dobbins:And he's just like about there. And we shot at high speed, so the camera's very loud, 60 frames.

2:19:42Sean Fennessey:I wanted to ask you, in general, is the IMAX camera like just different, a load, harder, harder on actors?

2:19:48Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, I mean, it's a whole different ball of wax, right? Right. So it's one of those things where like everyone's just on board because you're not going to get a more beautiful image from anything, in my opinion, now that I've shot it. And I thought that when I saw The Dark Knight, you know, and the bank sequence, I was like, is there anything better than this fucking scene? Yes. There is not. Yeah, I know what you mean. When you get that camera in your hands, you're ultimately very aware of what it can do. And so you want to really utilize it. And it's louder, but it doesn't matter because you want to utilize it.

2:20:22Amanda Dobbins:So you kind of create a world where everyone, well, you have to have the best technicians, right? Because the focus pulling on that is insane. And the loud aspect of it, it's like Ryan turns scenes that were supposed to be anamorphic into IMAX. So then he has to have a talk with the actors to make sure they're okay with it. Because it's like a lawnmower. So say you're there and I'm two to three feet from your face and you have to pretend like you're not shouting over a camera.

2:20:52Sean Fennessey:Yeah, yeah. I talked to Adrian Brody and Brady Corby about that with the VistaVision camera on Brutalist 2 where it's like LOL obviously had to operate that with all of those close-ups and the intimacy. It just seems like it is the way that things used to work and then we stopped doing it. And actors have gotten more comfortable with digital over the years, too, where like the performance styles, I feel like, have to change pretty dramatically to be able to work in that way. I'm always curious to hear how actors feel about that, too.

2:21:16Amanda Dobbins:Well, it's also like they're doing a great job, right? Yeah.

2:21:19Sean Fennessey:No, it's working in this movie for sure.

2:21:21Amanda Dobbins:And then, I mean, they do ADR after, but there's still a guide track there and there's still a feeling that you need to capture in order to remember that later, right? Right. Because, you know, like on that resolution on a hundred foot screen in Lincoln Center, like you see everything. so if someone's not doing a great job and you feel like there's a loud camera in the space like audiences are going to see that yeah but they did a beautiful job um and yeah it's a slower pace there's a respect that needs to happen on set for that type of pacing um and camera system it's kind of goes back to what we were talking about like we're making a movie you know um you know the ben hur of it all and the lawrence of arabia like the david lean um i just had to do a thing where I documentary interview about David Lean.

2:22:06Amanda Dobbins:And it was such a beautiful thing to be able to discuss like how he made films and him in general, because like I would love to make films like that all the time. The budgets, you know, everything's become like less budget, less time. But if you're given, you know, the accurate resources to telescoping movie and you can actually like travel to those places with heavy cameras and wait for the sun, then that'd be amazing.

2:22:29Sean Fennessey:This is the lesson of this award season, though. I'm like, just empower these people to make these movies, which are expensive, but they will pay out if you, and people want them. Like, they want the large format story. They want the epic experience. Like, it is very much, I think, where, in general, movie going is going. Like, people want to have that experience where they're kind of overwhelmed by something the same way a lean film will. I've kept you for a long time, Autumn.

2:22:54Amanda Dobbins:I mean, it's like, you just could talk for ages. It's nice to hear that.

2:22:59Sean Fennessey:we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen

2:23:03Amanda Dobbins:oh yeah I do remember you asked that

2:23:06Sean Fennessey:you know what yours is could be old or new

2:23:09Amanda Dobbins:okay what did I see well I'm not saying TV

2:23:14Sean Fennessey:please don't say TV

2:23:17Amanda Dobbins:it's not the last thing I actually watched okay some TV shows can be cinematic true well I mean I mean to be honest Lawrence of Arabia yeah so what because i i was re-watching it because i was i went to go do the um interview

2:23:32Sean Fennessey:what what was the documentary you were sitting um well about david lean a documentary about david

2:23:38Amanda Dobbins:interesting who's making it are you allowed to say uh well i shouldn't because i'm okay yeah it's not it was just they're making it did you go back and i'll send it to you a bunch please do um

2:23:47Sean Fennessey:did you look at a bunch of his films because he's another one too kind of like started more modestly yeah in his early films and then kind of is building up to this period in the 50s and 60s when he has these huge canvases.

2:23:57Amanda Dobbins:I mean, I did a little snippets of Zhivago and dip my toe in a couple things to refresh rate expectations, stuff like that. But I think that was the last, because I've been a little busy doing stuff. So I felt like I took some time to revisit that film. Otherwise, sometimes TV, I'm watching planes and stuff. But I don't have to talk about that. But yeah, so I revisited that. And I was just like, wow, you know, it's so, it does it every time to me. And I'm watching it on my TV, obviously. But like the scene, for instance, where O'Toole goes, like they go to the well and he has, you know, his partner with him.

2:24:41Amanda Dobbins:And then you see that one lone black figure come up in the middle center punched in frame. And they're both flanking the edges of the anamorphic frame. Or no, actually, that is not anamorphic. No, no, it's not. Actually, I think that's Superman vision. and they're there and it's like it's just he comes up and then obviously he shoots him but like that frame and I was like this is the frame that I have in my head all the time this is the format this widescreen Scopey format with the center punch guy and the beautiful frame yeah

2:25:09Sean Fennessey:it's a great full circle Autumn thanks for doing the show

2:25:11Amanda Dobbins:yes thank you so much yes

2:25:17Sean Fennessey:okay thanks Autumn thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode later this week Scream 7 and after much demand Nirvana the band the movie which you have now seen

2:25:28Autumn Durald Arkapaw:I have seen I think I'm like elbowing my way into this episode

2:25:31Sean Fennessey:yes well you're more than invited now that you've seen the film and I can't wait

2:25:36Autumn Durald Arkapaw:to hear the Matt Johnson conversation

2:25:38Sean Fennessey:he is an elite guest and it is an elite conversation we will see you then

2:25:52Thank you.