The Final Girl Film Canon and ‘Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma’ With Gillian Anderson, Hannah Einbinder, and Jane Schoenbrun!

27:30And that is a counterpoint to that real sensual and sexual and emotional experience that Chris is having with Billy every time Chris and Billy are together and the kind of pod to do that they're having with one another, which is such a fascinating thing. Jillian and Hannah, I'm curious, like what you thought about them. And, you know, Jillian is another one of these signposts in the film, obviously. Well, Julian Anderson's a great actor, right? Like really great. And if you watch, you know, the House of Mirth, you're like, that's a great actor. Or you watch Hannibal, you know, that's a great actor.

28:04And then on top of that, she's also, I don't know if the internet has doubled down and made it more apparent or if it's made it less apparent just with time. I don't, I try not to spend that much time on these corners of the internet, but like she's a real icon. I mean, everyone will say this person is iconic. This person is iconic. This is like a pre-internet or early internet kind of sexual icon for boys, for girls, for everybody. And that character is... I asked her about this and she tried to be modest about it, but it was like, you know, we all know. Like we know what you represent. If you were born between 1972 and 1987, we all know what you are.

28:41Yeah, I mean, that show and its kind of fandom and the neo-cult aspect to the X-Files and the fact that it was a primetime hit, but beyond being a hit, it was, I mean, again, it's like a TV glow kind of show. Like Pink Opaque, obviously it's a little more mainstream. so she's being cast but she's also being kind of deployed you know by the movie but then she also has to give a performance within that and i think that her performance obviously has echoes of the stage work that she's done i wish i'd had a chance to see her in streetcar named desire i haven't but i mean this is someone with a real arsenal as an actor and a lot of technique and you feel kind of all of that you feel all of that technique it's a very grand very flamboyant performance it's not just Anderson who's performing it's the character is performing an idea of Norma Desmond you know I mean one bit I liked where people are like oh the meanings of the movie are too explicit they're going to compare to Norma Desmond and then they get there and she's like yeah I know I'm a little like Norma Desmond you know it's like the annotation has an annotation no one is deserves points for getting ahead of this movie's references and I know for some people that insulates the movie from like real fear or real thorniness or real kind of alienation within horror that when everything's a reference nothing's actually scary i mean again a critic i really like wrote this which is it's easier to think of this not as a horror movie but as a kind of stoner romantic comedy that you know is about the world of horror movies or it's sort of you know a movie about uncut about you know unblocking oneself sexually that kind of just happens to have that as an aphrodisiac or as a fetish object she's not making they're not making a horror movie they could and you know we're all going to the world's fair has some pretty good scares in it but i don't think it's a horror movie but as for han einbinder i mean ryan binder i mean interesting actress i don't watch hacks i've heard she's very good obviously the dynamic with her and gene smart on that show informs the casting here she's also extremely overtly political person and sometimes that has no bearing on someone's performance on the right or on the left.

30:48And sometimes it's a function of casting. To me, that's a function of the casting here too, you know? I like watching them together. I think they're very sweet together. I think that there's a real erotic and neurotic energy in both of those performances. And I enjoyed them, you know? It's a different kind of actor than Jane's worked with previously or experiment to the little within TV glow using actors iconography, like Fred Durst is in, I saw the TV glow. And when I watched it the other night, I was just like, what an amazing idea to have like Limp Bizkit as the face of kind of like, you know, paternal disapproval, you know, why are you watching a girl's show, you know, but, and you know, TV glow does it with musicians, with Phoebe Bridgers and Caroline Polachek.

31:38So yeah, I mean, Anderson is, is very well used. The two of them are very sweet on screen together. I think they're both very fine. Well, I think that idea that you hit on about the movie not being scary, which I had also on our list of topics of discussion, is fascinating to me because, you know, as a certified slasherologist, most of the other slasherologists I know are not scared of these movies. They have memories of being scared of them when they were nine, when they saw them, which is a key component in this story. but no one sits down to watch Friday the 13th part six for the fourth time worried about being scared of it it's an emotional point of connection and so the movie is very very smart about this I think it is I think the movies that are in this movie's DNA or that have come up in interviews and again with filmmakers whether you like their work or not you're trying not to put words in their mouth so I don't want to misquote Jane but I mean a movie like Sleepaway Camp which in some ways is kind of cheesy and dated and, you know, capital P problematic, whatever that means.

32:41I usually don't like that word as a way to talk about movies, but I like when people talk about that aspect of filmmaking, then I think it's fascinating. A movie like Sleepaway Camp, or like a great example of Nightmare on Elm Street 2, which are movies that are maybe frightening to people or seductive to people in ways that either exceed their maker's conscious intentions or just that mix of extremity. I mean, the readings, the queer reading of Nightmare on Elm Street 2 is very famous and very popular. I think there's a whole documentary about it. I taught that film in a cult film course once where it's just like, is this actively, consciously an allegory for gay experience?

33:17Or did the filmmakers miss this? You could say the same thing about Commando, frankly. I think that you could. These are the movies that they're not scary, but the guardrails aren't up, you know or they feel like an unsafe space yeah so that's something that this movie is about without doing it the only time it starts to feel unsafe and it's conceptually my favorite thing in the movie is when and we're not this isn't like a plot spoiler but it's a talking point so i hope people don't mind us talking about it is when chris is talking about how what she gets off on in these movies is that idea that you're the voyeur and the victim at the same time and this movie has not invented that idea, but it articulates it in a way that I quite like.

34:05And she's kind of ashamed that this is how she feels, that she wants to be the victim, but it's also very sort of liberating. And that's the kind of pleasure this movie is getting at. It's a little double-edged and it very clearly belongs to Jane as well as to Chris. That's what the whole movie is about. Yeah, and I think that's perhaps the most critical scene in the movie, this idea of accepting and letting go and also being stalked and getting joy from that feeling of being stalked. And being seen by the camera. Yes, in slow motion. In slow motion. Like this is a movie that's sort of like, it's not just jokes about split diopter shots and tracking shots.

34:49It's sort of like, what a joy to be seen that way, which is tricky. And not everyone who's going to watch that movie is going to feel that way. I think for people who connect to those feelings, it will be very liberating. Yeah, I think the movie's trying to have its cake and eat it too with respect to the problematism that you're describing. Because there's that great moment when Billy and Chris are watching Camp Miasma together and the reel is running. And Chris can't help but continue to turn to Billy and offer either details about filmmaking technique or noting moments of transphobia in the film.

35:28And every time that happens, Billie is like, shut up and like rolling her eyes at this kind of millennial Gen Z desire to constantly be noting the referentiality or the discourse around something as opposed to just letting it totally wash over you. And so the movie also becomes this really interesting dialectic about what is the purpose of a movie like this? And can you enjoy it without its externalities? Or is that actually a mistake to only consume culture in that way? And I think just portraying that in general is so exciting and so smartly done. Well, this is now becoming, again, there are some people for whom just having a movie where tropes are mentioned in dialogue is just like a jump off the train.

36:15point, you know, and some people have sort of invoked phrases with this movie that I invoke for other movies. So I guess everyone's palate is different, but they're like, you know, this is like Epic Bacon kind of humor and the, oh my God, you know, the kind of post Joss Whedon, you know, well, that just happened sort of stuff. I don't actually think that has much of a corollary in the text of the movie at all, but I think that I understand that tone. I also think that at this point, it's not, it's telling that talented and semi-talented horror people in a lot of mediums, their only subject is horror movies because there's such a proliferation of them.

36:47And in some ways it's a safer space than dealing with reality. I believe in that too. I'm about halfway through this novel by Paul Tremblay called Horror Movie. I don't know if you've read it, which is about a kid who made in high school a horror movie with a bunch of other kids that like never got released, like only two or three scenes ever got put on YouTube. And now a studio is trying to remake it. And it's uncanny how close his scenes meeting with the executives are to the scenes in Miasma. I think the two projects are completely independent of each other. My implication isn't that one takes from the other, but they're almost identical.

37:21It's like meeting with executives and you think, yeah, we want to get that 90s feeling, but remake it now and make it modern. I mean, this is the condition of a lot of modern horror making. And again, when we talked about the Counting Crows little death scene, you mentioned that the visual language in it. I mean, it is the visual language of elevated horror or an idea of elevated horror or an idea of an idea of elevated horror. I don't think this movie has much truck with that idea. It doesn't come out and openly say, I hate this shit because it's kind of doing that shit. But you'll notice it doesn't do it for the entire movie.

37:58I don't think Jane would be caught dead making that movie. And we don't have to say what that movie is, because I know you like some of these movies, and I like some of these movies. And I think saying Backrooms or Obsession or any movie is just like what's right or wrong with horror is a losing game. It's just a movie. It's just a movie. But I do think that this movie has a certain amount, if not of skepticism, then of wariness. It's like, I'll do this for a couple of minutes, but this is not really what I'm making. you know? I do. It's a really interesting way to think about it. Is there anything in general that, well, one thing that you tapped into that I thought was really interesting was that feeling of like, does this movie know what it's doing in previous horror films?

38:43And I've thought about this a lot with Obsession. I rewatched Obsession this week and it was my first time seeing it since I saw it at a screening. And, you know, there's a sequence near the end of the film where Nikki Nikki and Bear are sort of fighting and Bear has kind of reached his breaking point after Nikki has gone completely crazy. And he keeps asking her to be the real Nikki. And he's screaming at her and she starts screaming at him. And it's an incredibly effective scene. And a scene that feels like very wise about difficult romantic relationships reaching a breaking point. And, you know, Curry Barker is 26 years old.

39:23I talked to him on the show. He's a very smart and nice guy, but I was like, does this person have enough life experience to know how sophisticated I'm reading this idea as, this sequence in this film? And this is true throughout all of horror. It's true in a lot of different genres, but it's especially true in horror movies. And Sleepaway Camp does have a lot of sequences in that film where I'm like, whoa, this movie, problematic though it may be, seems to kind of see the future about gender dynamics and a lot of other ideas that we're going to get into in the next 30, 40 years of our existence.

39:55And this movie is an attempt, I think, to almost like subvert that sensation by literalizing everything, by announcing everything that it's doing. And neither one nor the other is like better or worse. But I find it fascinating that they're both like sitting next to each other as signature moments in the genre right now. I mean, I think it is interesting, too. And I'll say something about Obsession, which we've never talked about on the pod. I wrote about it briefly on the ringer when I did the year mid year thing. And I said, you know, this is the Obsession is a movie of the year. I mean, like kind of derogatory or not necessarily complimentary.

40:28I'm not going to get you in trouble. You can like it as much as you want. I've heard about Curry Barker on as many times as you know he's around. We've both watched movies for a long time. We've covered them for a long time. You and I are not exactly the same, but like we get along, right? We kind of know the terrain. I propose that obsession has generated the most deranged discourse of any American movie since I started doing this. And I think about 80 % of that is the moment that we're in. And only 20 % of it is the movie. It's a deranged moment. Deranged isn't even a good word. I know that.

41:00But it's wild how intense and passionate and polarized and digressive and kind of fascinating what people are reading into or pulling out of or projecting onto this movie. And in a strange way, I'd say the difference between Obsession and Can't Meowspa, I like Can't Meowspa exponentially more, you know, like much, much more. but I do think that obsession having seen it now with an audience a couple times it makes people feel unsafe and it is not because it is innovative I'm going to say all the things it's not it is not innovative it is not inventive it is not original I don't think it's particularly responsible with what it's playing with and it's certainly not a dissertation you know like Jane's movie gets an a plus you know I would say I'd say I'd say obsession is kind of incomplete and yet its hands are so dirty it's really opening the can of worms i'm not even giving it credit i'm just saying i mean i am giving it credit that's one of the reasons why i go to movies is to feel a little unsafe so i i know what you're saying like you're you're you're right to kind of like couch it in in this space where we analyze things and we try to understand where they fit in the culture and are they politically sound and all of that is true and i think that movie's reaction that it has generated does feel it's highly uncommon is something i'll say and it's it's it's highly uncommon and it it reminds me of if one movie had existed when twitter was out if fatal attraction had come out when twitter existed or if twitter existed for fatal attraction it's not just the hetero pessimist thing or the like you know the the rom-com into slasher trope things it's like could you imagine if fatal attraction had existed in twitter era well i think again like that that's a movie also that is about um fraught gender dynamics and obsession and teenage sex and death and i can't make asthma are about those things too in very broad in different ways and i think that's something that we still don't really know how to talk about and one movie can kind of literalize the idea and another movie can kind of supernaturalize the idea and that in either case we feel like we have a lot to chew on and no one's right that's the unique thing that i think both of these movies like brought out of me of like oh i have a lot to learn you know like i'm still learning there are these movies they just they kind of instantly belong to history and it just it it is what it is you know i i happen to like the blair witch project very much and I kind of like Paranormal Activity like I'm mostly on the side of these kind of left field horror monoliths and also what we have to see with Obsession is what will happen with Blair Witch or with Paranormal Activity which is is it repeatable you know in the case of those movies it's sequelizable without being repeatable I'm kind of like what will what will the Obsession Slop look like or what will the backrooms what will the backrooms Slop Slop Slop look like but But I do think that Miasma will be, I hope not a footnote.

44:08I mean, I think it's a chapter. It's not an annotation. It's a chapter in this same story. And, you know, Jane's work is sort of its own chapter in this moment. Because, of course, I also can't remember a moment where horror was this mainstream in terms of, like, normal people going to see it. Do you know how many people in my life who would not be caught dead going to horror movies? Like, parents, friends. I say this about Canadian films earlier this year, too. Horror in Canadian. but like they're just like seeing it as a normal person like my my wife's parents were like should we see obsession and I was like under no circumstances should you see obsession but the fact that you kind of want to you know I love my in-laws they go see the odyssey they don't go see obsession yeah it's and they're and they're thinking about it no it's it's a really exciting time in that respect and it's going to produce some some lousy results but maybe it's also going to inspire a lot of people to make some exciting stuff it's I want to I do want to do I want to talk more about Final Girls with you.

45:03Yeah, sure. Because this movie is a real Final Girl piece of the puzzle. So we'll get into the Final Girl canon together right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Amazon Prime. What pairs with a good comedy? The cozy blanket arriving with Prime. What pairs with the nail-biting thriller? Snacks arriving with Prime. What pairs with the big game on Prime Video? That new couch arriving with Prime. Whatever feeling you're after, Prime helps bring it to life. With great entertainment and fast shipping that delivers what the moment calls for. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

45:36Jane Schoenbrun:This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. It may have been years ago, but I still remember the feeling of unpacking my kids' lunch boxes after school and to find nothing left. As a parent, that's a total win. Boar's Head, maple honey ham, American cheese, maple honey turkey, all-time greats in the school lunch game. It's real quality protein that tastes great. So you can feel that winning feeling all term long. Whether you're doing wraps, sandwiches, or a quick snack box, Boar's Head makes packing school lunches easier. You'll be proud of what you pack. They'll be happy to finish it. Fuel their school day with the premium choice Boar's Head.

46:11Jane Schoenbrun:For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com slash back to school or head to your local deli counter.

46:47Okay, Adam, one movie that I revisited this week in writing about Final Girls was Smile 2. Did you see Smile 2? I quite like Smile 2. Okay, I thought you might. I'm not as high on it maybe as you are, but there's a lot to admire about it. And I do feel like Obsession is certainly grabbing quite a bit in terms of its mechanical decision-making from Smile 2. You know, the sound design, the way that the camera's moving. Well, it's taking very much from the original Smile. Yes, yes. Where it's just like, what if a person stared at camera? Would that be scary? I guess so. That's true. I'll never forget being at Smile with a bunch of friends.

47:29this was my letterboxd review of it and someone in the audience goes, she's going to smile. And I just, like they were calling the finishing move at WrestleMania. Here it comes. She's going to smile. It's going to be great. It was really funny. What's your favorite professional wrestling finisher? My favorite professional wrestling finisher? Oh, I mean the macho man, Big Elbow. Oh, no kidding. From the top rope. I was the sort of kid who like, I hated Hulk Hogan very much. And when I went to see it. The most name thing I can imagine. hating hulk hogan sucks so you go to the you go to the house show at maple leaf gardens with my dad who did not want to be there i was like this guy's great macho man's great and like truly hulk hogan's stealing his girlfriend and stuff and i'm like i still think that that angle is better it's a great angle because like hogan's a complete creep we can talk about this another time we should do a wrestling pod me and you we should re-watch pay-per-views from the 80s and 90s and talk about them i honestly would have the best time doing it elizabeth no but i got a lot of macho in me um absolutely sorry go go on back to back to harmony uh my favorite finisher is uh the razor's edge which is one of the most cinematic of all finishers um one of the most cinematic of all characters you know do you know this the scarface story you must right no what's the scarface when scott hall supposedly auditioned to vince mcmahon he's like this is like tony montana and i'm doing know what Scarface is.

48:56You know, I'm like, was there then a period where he got very curious and went and watched all the De Palma movies? We'll never know. Sorry, go on. I love the idea of Scott Hall watching De Palma's obsession. That would be intriguing. Oh, yes. Okay, final girls. I think that there are a handful of them that are easily understood as canonical. You already mentioned Halloween being a movie you tried to show to a girl. I think we've all tried to show Halloween to a girl over the years. and Laurie Strode being the signature. There are a couple that come before that that feel important. I don't really think of, you know, Carol Clover's essay about this idea comes in the late 80s and it's primarily focused on 70s and 80s films.

49:41And so in that tradition, she identifies Jess Bradford from Black Christmas. She identifies Sally Hardesty from Texas Chainsaw Massacre. She identifies Laurie Strode. I can't recall. Does Ripley come up from Alien? I think in scholarship around the original essay, I think Alien is like a lot of people's clever answer to that question. Yeah, so what do you think about that? I mean, I think it fits. I think it's interesting that, I mean, very interesting in light of talking about Jane's work that in the original script of Alien, Ripley was a man. and they didn't really change much of the character for Weaver's performance, except for then when Ridley Scott has her stripped down to her underwear at the end.

50:23A great choice, by the way, because it's about vulnerability, right? I mean, it couldn't be more vulnerable in that moment. Then that kind of pressurizes it as a final girl discussion. One that's echoed in Teenage Sex and Death. Yes, it is echoed in Teenage Sex and Death, although Sigourney Weaver never ran around. I mean, I think of Night of the Living Dead, where the first girl is also the final girl. You know, like she's the first one we see kind of running around. And that trope of being chased through the cemetery and losing her shoe and falling over. I mean, Camp Miasma has fun with that, too.

51:02And Night of the Living Dead precedes a lot of these films. I mean, an interesting final girl. I don't think Carol Clover writes about them, but we talked about De Palma. It's funny to think of Carrie White as a load-bearing character who is both the monster and the final girl at the same time. I thought about asking about Carrie if you thought Carrie fits the bill here. I mean, for those who don't know, final girl is a trope that was developed by Clover, who is an academic film scholar. And it's about the final surviving female character in a horror film. And what attributes that character frequently has.

51:34that character is frequently virginal, frequently sober, frequently brunette, frequently less bodacious than some of the other female stars of the film. Frequently sober, virginal, all these things. Yes, all these things. Like podcast listeners. Truly. If you've been to our subreddit, you know that's accurate. A lot of sober virgins there. I think it's been bent a little bit over time, the trope, but it's still pretty consistent. And one of the things that has struck me, and you can think about this through the lens of 60s and 70s and 80s horror films, but one of the things that has struck me is just the absolute wave of them that we've gotten in the last 10 or so years.

52:16and the way that horror films are sold so hard now on the female protagonist or the woman in peril in ways that are sometimes very self-aware and in other times that are just sort of like your kind of stock and trade, run-of-the-mill horror studio movie. And so I'm really fascinated by that. In the 80s, there's, of course, Nancy Thompson from Nightmare. There's Angela Baker from Sleepaway Camp, which kind of flips that on its head because of the shocking reveal of that film. There's, I think, Kirstie Cotton from Hellraiser, I think, is a really, really good one. Yeah. And then we get into the 90s and we get Sidney Prescott and Gail Weathers, we get, but then it's not until the 2010s when I think things start to be turned on their head a bit.

53:02So I don't know, do you think of them as kind of sectioned over time? I do, and I think one of the scenes we didn't talk about in Miasma is that opening scene that shows the life cycle and the evolution of a franchise where it goes from like exploitation, you know, to just running on fumes to that idea of rebooting and repurposing across genres. Like this wonderful credit scene of Camp Miasma being sequelized and merchandised and made fan-friendly and turned into a cartoon and then becomes a collector's item and then they send them to space. I mean, that stuff's all very clever. I mean, that's the study of pop culture is the study of cycles and, you know, surface variations, variations on a theme.

53:47I mean, there's always going to be an interesting discourse around different kinds of aggression and vulnerability in horror movies. So are men de facto more aggressive or frightening or frustrated than women? No. But on screen, that trope has a kind of power. Are women inherently either more superficially vulnerable and, you know, more indomitable? Is there like an innocence or whether it's the innocence of virginity or the goodness in more recent films of being sexually active and killing them anyway. I mean, these are archetypes. These movies sort of play with. Every so often you have one that plays with it sort of intelligently.

54:26You know, some people have compared Cammy Asma to the Joss Whedon film to Cabin in the Woods, which is an interesting comparison. That was one that I thought a little ahead of the curve was just popping the hood and elevating the horror, elevating it past the point of being scary, elevating it into that realm of kind of dissertation or, or, or, or discourse. I mean, that's a movie that really goes for it. As I recall, the final girl in that film, you see her being like stalked and brutalized and beaten up and you see everyone watching her on their screens, right? That's that idea of like implicating the viewer, which is what a lot of these movies like to do to Brian De Palma.

55:06Brian De Palma used to do that without saying, I am implicating you the viewer, but you know, we can, We can talk about that another time. Yeah. Cabin in the Woods, upon its release, I adored. And I think it was because we didn't quite have the language for the post-Scream, post-postmodern horror film. And I haven't looked at that in a long time. I'd be curious to know how I felt about it. But I also felt that that movie did something that a lot of the contemporary movies are doing pretty well, too, which is that that movie at times was quite scary. You know, it was not actually, it didn't turn and look at you and wink at you.

55:39And in fact, it has this really chaotic third act that is at times felt the way that I felt when I was 11 in the library, like reading a book that was a collection of monster descriptions. But it also felt like watching a really violent and scary horror movie. And I think of that movie very closely with Year Next, which is sort of like Adam Wingard's movie that just sort of feels like what if Laurie Strode studied jujitsu before. encountering Michael Myers you know that like what if what if the what if the final girl was stronger tougher and meaner than the killer which I always I really really enjoy that idea and there have been some films that like ready or not is kind of riffing on this at this point now too yeah and even though it's only there's no and even though I mean the final girl also implies that there are people killed before them but a movie like revenge by Corley Fargeat she's like the only girl yeah right she's the victim she's killed she's resurrected she goes from the victim to sort of the, I mean, that one sort of coded as a kind of rape revenge movie.

56:42But I mean, again, it's a movie that plays with that sort of intelligently. I mean, there's movies like, you know, Jennifer's Body isn't quite a slasher film, but, you know, Diablo Cody's having fun playing with those tropes. You know, you mentioned the Ready or Not films. Now the sequel features my obligatory mention of David Cronenberg, good performance by David Cronenberg as the dying criminal patriarch in that Toronto shot film. but the final girl gets a sister in that movie. And the other one I like, I can't remember the character name, but I liked, it's a Jessica Roth and happy death day.

57:15Yes. She's terrific. I think is, is, is that's a very, it's almost great. I put it in the almost great category. There's things about it that don't quite work, but she's funny because she has the existential frustration of knowing she's the final girl and having to just psych herself up time and time again, which is like, this is just going to keep happening to me. very funny I think there's a few other movies in recent years too that have done it really well and they're more prestigious for lack of a better word I think Adelaide in Us fits the bill here very much I think Danny in Midsommar really really fits the bill and both of them seem to be kind of like actively exploring what it means to be a final girl even though those aren't pure slashers Nauru from from Prey also and for Midthunder's character I think fits the bill well and then I think that it kind of like And it kind of, gosh, what's the word I'm looking for?

58:16It kind of like reaches the end of the road. It's like there's like nowhere to go. The bridge is not finished with Maxine Minx and Pearl. That's where I'm like, okay, we have kind of gotten to the conclusive point of self-referential riffing on rape revenge and slasher films. And we can go no further. And Teenage Sex and Death, Academia, Asma attempts to kind of like rebuild the bridge. you know it's like trying to trying to finish the job yeah i mean i remember back back in i mean a couple years ago i mean i thought the way that the first x built itself this sequel or kind of prequel out of nowhere with pearl was pretty good it was amazing i thought i thought that was very efficient yeah i mean i wrote about maxine or whatever it was for for ringer i mean i don't like that movie at all but i mean it is close in some ways to something like miasma where it's not Not so much that its ideas are different.

59:12It's just that little matter that sometimes matters of, you know, form and execution and style and tone, which miasma has. And I don't think that that one does. I mean, people really like Cato Flynn's final girl episode of Widow's Bay, which I don't know if you've watched. I have. The one where she's being pursued, which is very miasma-ish, too, where she's being pursued by, like, I guess within the lore of the show, it's a serial killer. but it's also just a capital S K serial killer stand in. And, you know, all the things that happen, especially the idea of these movies that no one helps these women, but no one believes them and that no one opens their door and no one lets them in.

59:52And the cops are useless. I mean, I don't love widow's Bay, but that scene was, was good. And it was priceless when the thing was lying there dead. And she just kept pointing the gun at it for like about five minutes and all these different rooms. I thought that was, that was really funny. But yeah, I mean, miasmas obviously playing with this idea of a of an first of an it girl you know like the the touted filmmaker and then a kind of you know this frustrated girl where it's like you know not virginal by choice you know not not not virginal by choice there's a block and then the last 10-15 minutes without being at all scary restage that the the sex the death the chase the catharsis the confrontation, the victory, but in a very different way than, you know, Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

1:00:42It's funny you mentioned that as an early final girl. You see, that's a movie where she seems to be the final girl by default because it's not a movie star and it's barely a character. She just happens to not die. But when she rides away on the back of that truck at the end, that's one of the greatest moments in any movie. Not just horror movie, I mean, period. It's beautiful. Like, that sense of survival was unbelievable. You can't top it, I don't think. I was at my childhood rep house when I was on Long Island last week and introducing a movie, introducing a movie that we both love, Miller's Crossing.

1:01:19And they told me a story about running Texas Chainsaw at a midnight there. And they had an original, they had a print. And right at that exact moment when she jumps in the back of the truck and Leatherface is swinging the chainsaw, the print broke. And the movie had an abrupt ending and the lights came up too quickly and everyone was freaked out in the movie theater. And the idea that that movie, which is 50 plus years old, still has that power is so fascinating to me. And it does get me thinking about kind of like, where can we even go with this trope, this genre, the idea that this is the year of obsession and back rooms and that, you know, Resident Evil is coming out in a month.

1:02:04and even though it's an adaptation of a video game from a major studio, I think there's a sense like this has a chance to be a great movie. Is Austin Abrams This Fall's Final Girl? I think so. With Resident Evil and Whale Fall? And I haven't even gotten into all that, which is obviously there have been quite a few final boys in recent years as well. And the gender dynamics there have been shifted quite a bit. Well, the greatest final boy is Bruce Campbell. Of course, yes, Ash. as Ash in the Evil Dead films because he's very macho coded but you know then he's not yes and I really love the way I mean he's such a wonderful actor in those movies the way he sort of sways between like total competence and just like shrieking cowardice is a gift that just keeps on on giving I can't think more fondly of an actor than Bruce Campbell I hope he's okay me too he's the best any final thoughts Adam we didn't talk we talked with the scene as opposed to the Counting Crows needle drop, but I mean, I love the cover of Night Swimming at the beginning.

1:03:11I can't not. I mean, I love R.E.M. It's a beautiful song. It's very well chosen because I mean, Night Swimming is very much you know, summertime at Camp Miasma. That's what Little Death is doing. That's what Little Death is doing, yeah. And we didn't even talk about the idea in the film, which again, some people find a little too declamatory or obvious, but like the hole in the movie where the movies, the hole in the lake where the movies come from. Yes. As a sort of thing about the mystery and the sort of submerged and subterranean nature of creativity. I love how they come out of that kind of Cronenbergian slit and they're already VHS tapes, you know?

1:03:48I mean, it'd be interesting to see if Jane makes something that doesn't ultimately, not resort, that's not right, or lean on, but like maybe something that's not purely about the gaze of watching TV and seeing yourself on the screen. But on the other hand, you know, good and great filmmakers repeat themselves. I mean, that's sort of what one understanding about tourism is. So one understanding, at least for critics, if not for filmmakers. I think at this point it's conscious. If they were to say, oh, I don't know I'm doing that, that I wouldn't believe. You know, I forgot to say about the final girl thing.

1:04:24One of the funniest things I ever interviewed someone about was when I talked to John Carpenter for The New Yorker. And we were talking about The Final Girl and he's like, I don't know what that is. What is that? I'm like, oh, it's an essay by Carol Clover. He's like, okay, good. Now I know what that means and, you know, moved on. I mean, he, much like almost anything, he has no, the only thing he had a lot of interest in other than, you know, some of his own movies was NBA basketball. He's a great basketball fan. But, I mean, a filmmaker like Carpenter is not doing this intentionally. Jane Shunbrun's doing this very intentionally.

1:04:53No question. No question. I think Jane has a novel and then a Netflix adaptation of Black Hole coming out. And so Black Hole is aware of genre tropes, but it is not about genre tropes. And so I'll be curious to see how much they modernize that graphic novel because it's really old now. And I mean, I must have read it. Is it possible that it's like 20 years old? When did it come out? It's going to be 30 years old. yeah I don't know off the top of my head but yeah 30 years sounds uh 30 years sounds about right so that'll be interesting but that's television as far as films go I don't know I do feel like we're reaching a kind of end point because of that progression that you talked about from a a vlogging to to fandom to to creator well we even this year we even got we got the haunted podcast movie.

1:05:48Sure did. Undertone. The Canadian haunted podcast. Some are saying this has been the haunted podcast for many years. What if I had a podcast? Would that be of interest? I'll tell you, it'd be scary. That'd be real scary. It'd be scary. Who can say what's coming? Maybe that. What an elegant tease. Wasn't that subtle? You'll be a podcaster yet, Adam. One day. What's the line? I've been taught by masters. Yeah, and it was great to have you in Toronto. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for having Amanda and Chris. What a year for Toronto. You guys are doing it. Blue Jays are back. Back, game and a half back.

1:06:36Look at that perfect circle we just traced with the podcast. You'll have to learn about this when you podcast. Yeah, there's nowhere to go now. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. Thanks, Adam. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with Jane, Hannah, and Jillian.

1:06:53So happy to have Jane Schoenbrunn, Hannah Einbinder, and Jillian Anderson here to talk about this film. You're getting this question a lot, but I do need to hear from all three of you the first horror film you've seen and whether or not it made you a lifelong fan. I think I know the answer to the second question for you, Jane, but where did you start?

1:07:11Jane Schoenbrun:First horror film that I saw, I think technically was my grandma's copy of Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, is that a horror movie? I think so. I watched it like it was a horror movie as I knew about Frankenstein. I was like, oh, this guy and these goofballs. And they also had Night of the Living Dead on VHS. So then I watched that. And so it was like dipping my toes further into the water. Was your grandparents like watched it live with your grandparents? I forget if I watched it live with them or I just like waited for them to leave the room and grabbed the cassette.

1:07:46Did you not have a lot of guardrails in terms of what you could watch as a kid?

1:07:49Jane Schoenbrun:No, I famously watched with my parents at age, I must have been eight or nine, the first episode of South Park, the first broadcast when it aired live. I was there. Whoa, history. Everyone who watched it started a band. No, yeah, I was watching some nasty stuff from a very young age. Hannah, what about you? Absolute freak. I would have, I think mine is Silent Hill. Oh, sure. Yeah, I remember being so terrified. It's kind of a little girl's nightmare being separated from your mom and sort of like in a world filled with scary creatures and ghouls. Were you a gamer? No. No, I just, my mom showed it to me.

1:08:35She just is like a real horror head. She wanted to watch it. It came out in 2006. So I must have been in like, I think sixth grade or maybe fifth grade. And I was really scared. It freaked me out. But I actually revisited it because we've been having a lot of these kinds of conversations. And I rewatched it and I found it to be so beautiful. I think I'm more so identified with the perspective of the mom. And it's also just like beautiful filmmaking, actually. And it looks great. And I hear that for folks who are fans of the video game, it's a faithful adaptation. Okay. Did you stick with horror or was that not really a genre for you growing up?

1:09:17Yeah. Yeah, I did. I wouldn't say I was all the way in, but I think it was one element of my media diet. Okay. Jillian, what about you? I've now told this story so many times I'm slightly boring myself. You can lie to me if you want and tell a new story. No, but then I get myself into a world of pain. I had a bad trip at somebody else's house, somebody I didn't know very well when I was very young. And it was just some really, really strong marijuana. and they decided to put on Texas Chainsaw Massacre. And I couldn't get out. I couldn't, like if I went outside, it would have been dark and I didn't know them real well.

1:10:05It was just a one-room apartment. And so it was just horrific. And that was kind of the first and the last horror film I saw. Really? Yeah. And so you don't have a huge relationship to it. No, I can watch the gruesomest true crime stuff, but I can't watch horror. And even when my kids watch it in other rooms, if I hear the sound or I hear something, I need to like plug my ears kind of thing. It's strange. I get really triggered. That maybe explains a little bit about why you haven't been in a lot of movies like this. But I kind of wanted to ask you about that, Jane, too, in terms of how you found these two actors and maybe like what they represent to audiences.

1:10:46Was that a component? And how did you figure out who should be in the movie? Yeah.

1:10:52Jane Schoenbrun:Jillian made this great Instagram, Twitter post recently where you were posting pictures of yourself from back in the day and then posting pictures of Hannah and how similar the energy is. And this is actually, I think, something I was aware of when coming up with a pairing. Yeah, there's something like, I mean, obviously there's something psychosexual going on in this movie in general. But like, I just, I had this impulse that like, there's never been a, a, a like pairing of like two actors who are starring in like an erotic thriller of sorts. That's been quite deranged in this style. there's just like yeah something about the two of them together just immediately like I knew I knew it was going to be like I think maybe because of how similar you seem in some ways and you're very different people knowing you well at this point but at first I was just like yeah it felt mischievous in a way that I couldn't quite explain and that was exciting but no I was a fan of both of them, obviously.

1:12:00Jane Schoenbrun:Jillian, I grew up watching. It was very strange meeting Jillian for the first time because, yeah, I just like, I did spend like so much time with you when I was like eight years old. Like really, like I think probably like as much as my siblings. Like I was so, yeah, I just, I lived, I lived in the screen obviously. And so then meeting you and feeling like oh I kind of like like there's something like almost um Pavlovian you know like uh and not just like oh I've seen you in things but like I know you from like a past life or like childhood in some deep way and and then that familiarity like now it's invisible to me because like very quickly we just like started forming a connection as people and yeah and you're you're you're so different than the roles all of the roles I've seen you in and that's what's so wonderful about like this performance and all of the others.

1:12:54Jane Schoenbrun:Um, but yeah, there is definitely like the iconography in the film that was in my head while writing it. And I was, I was thinking about Jillian while writing it of like, um,

1:13:06Jane Schoenbrun:yeah, like somebody who, who, who we, when we see her will believe her as like this icon from like a, uh, you know, a past life or, or, or a past like franchise or something. But I think more than that, there is this like, yeah, there are very few actors who can like make the entrance that Jillian makes in this movie. And it has something to do, I think, with like, like the classical old Hollywood, like, just like glitter or something. There is something that is like, yeah, you can't fake that and you can't like invent that on the fly. You know, you can't cast somebody that like we've never seen before and never seen in that way.

1:13:47Jane Schoenbrun:Like there is just like this elegance that goes beyond like elegance that becomes like the dream that we've been enjoying in the cinema for a hundred years in just like the way Jillian inhabits space and physicality and the screen. And I knew that. And that moment when she does enter the movie, it's like, it is asking a lot to be earned, I think. And there are very few people in the world who could earn it like Jillian does. And Hannah, I was a fan of through Hacks, but I watched her standup special. I've talked about this before too. She's heard me gush about it, but she's psycho. The way that she was like dancing with the camera in that special, I like went beyond yeah she's she's great no like like she she is a little crazy like like we've spent a lot of time over the last couple weeks in the back of like cars and random cities getting like ushered to screenings and and i'm like realizing more and more like how gina rollins hannah is like hannah is like um that's crazy hannah's hannah's a loon um and such a performer but like um yeah and like so like perennially caffeinated or something um and uh and so such a natural performer i feel like you are most comfortable performing uh in a way that is like a little deranged and i saw that in your stand-up um and i was like oh i think that america needs to like learn a lot more about how deranged this person is i don't know how purposeful this was but i'm curious to hear you guys react to this because it's sort of in the text of the movie you know like we're being leveraged while we're watching the movie thinking about like you as an icon of a certain kind of you know film and television and you as a person you know you're basically starring in your first feature film you're making your first big feature in the film I don't know if that was an intention on your part but how did you think about that did you see yourselves and your careers and your work going into these particular characters when you were making the movie um

1:15:55I mean, I understood from the standpoint of franchise and being in iconic space, whether that's because of, you know, X-Files being an iconic show, certain characters that I played having iconic status. and you know it's a common relationship that fans seem to have with the with their with their particularly female stars that they're enamored of to refer to them as being icons or you know mothers or whatever those words are these days

1:16:48socials and so you know not to poo poo it or shrug it off or whatever because obviously it's a huge uh you know it's an honor and a privilege to even be categorized in that way but it's it's um so i I got that aspect of it. I got the value of having someone with my history being, you know, playing Billy. And so I did understand that. But also, you know, the Sunset Boulevard reference. And even though I didn't want to play into that too much throughout the whole thing. There were certainly aspects throughout that were fun to play with, you know, not least in some of the costuming and stuff. So it was both, but it also became part of the joy and the fun and the comedy of it, you know, because she's so much more than that trope.

1:17:58And I think... She, Billy, also plays with it. You know, she knows the power that she has. She knows what she's doing. She knows. So she's both very self-conscious and completely not self-conscious at the same time. And in there lies a kind of a naivete and an innocence with that, which I really liked. And so she feels much more complex than what you would expect from a character who represented that. Right. Yeah. I feel like Chris is very self-conscious. Yeah. And I don't know if any of your own self-consciousness went into being that character. Yeah. And I think to your previous question as well, like I think the consciousness of self, Like, was I having sort of a better awareness of the fact that like archetypally I have similarities here?

1:18:56I think my work was to really try to forget all of those things and really tap into a completely different frequency. Like, I am so low and slow, like Cali vibes. Like, and so I was just trying to be like, how can I go west, go east for me? You know what I mean? Like, how can I like embody this new frequency and only bring myself to it when it comes to like the very deep and the emotional, when it comes to the intimate, you know, emotional truths that the film is trying to communicate. And especially via the character that I was playing. Like, I definitely think that the only times that I brought anything from anything that was true for me in were in those those intimate moments.

1:19:40And so I think I tried my best to really forget all of those other things, because what I really, really was committed to trying to do was to feel like a different character and like a different person from myself. Yeah. That feel like a big shift from what you've been doing on Hacks? Of course. So how do you do that? Like you've been doing this for a while. You know that you're going to transform. You're thinking about a new character, but it's still it's a relatively big change if you're moving off of a comedy series that seemingly has elements of your own experiences in life. Yeah. Yeah. I think, well, first of all, like the text is so rich and so there's so much there for me to latch on to.

1:20:22Also, I spent a lot of time with Jane who, you know, imbued some of their emotional truths into the material, but also like I was absorbing some mannerisms and things like that from Jane. And then also just like, honestly, I was so shocked at how much wardrobe and costume, like the frames, like the specs, putting them bangs on. I was like, okay, new bitch in the building, you know? Like, I just like really all of that stuff, like why wearing like a long skirt and socks and those Mary Janes and like three sweaters and just like that is like such a, you know, that is such a useful tool for me to tap into kind of the discomfort and the self-consciousness and those things that affect the physicality of the body itself.

1:21:14So it just I kind of like went with it. Like I didn't understand that that was going to happen. I was kind of like, yeah, any day now I'm going to figure out what I'm doing here. And then we did the fittings and I was like, OK, this is different, you know. And yeah, like the first time that I like did those fittings, I was just starting to move around and look in the mirror and like my body was just changing and my way I was holding myself was just changing. And I started to like, yeah, just feel it. It was super psychedelic. Really cool. Jane, last time we talked, I think we spent some time talking about tone.

1:21:46And I do feel like the tone of this movie is different from the previous two movies. Like it is a very sincere, direct piece about sex and desire and some other things. But then it is, it feels like an act of satire at the same time. And that's really hard to pull off. So I'm curious like how you thought about making those two things fit together. But then maybe even more specifically how you make actors get on the wavelength to hit that tone.

1:22:12Jane Schoenbrun:yeah it was really scary and something that i like knew for me was like at the absolute heart of the project like i i think it's like a filmmaker's goal at least for me is to like create a body of work that's like representative of like the full scope of like how you experience the world and process things and and and especially i still think of myself as like fairly early on in what I hope is like a long filmography. I want each film to be like surprising in some way, or at least like, like even for myself, expanding the like definition of what I'm allowed to do. And I think I'm like pretty goofy and funny, you know, like, and the first two films, like obviously like those are films that came out of early transition and they're really intense.

1:23:02Jane Schoenbrun:And I was like, my life was exploding around me and I was like, I will capture the pain in its pure distilled form. And I didn't want to do that again because I wasn't in the same place. It would have been unnatural, you know, or like it would have been this like mining of a well of like, yeah, I think that I was actually really scared about this, but like it was amazing to make something that I'm prouder of than anything I've made so far that like didn't feel depleting in that way or that like the good art doesn't have to equal like ripping out your insides in front of the world even though a lot of the art that I like seems to be of that variety.

1:23:47There's some ripping out of the insides in this movie though. Oh for sure. We did a little bit

1:23:51Jane Schoenbrun:of ripping out of some insides. No I was like I want a blood geyser in the first scene and it's like this is my like line in the sand of like if you are coming in expecting kind of like a slow, sad, emo, you know, like dirge. Yeah. And then the other thing that was really scary was like, yeah, doing something that's like unselfconsciously campy and yeah, like, like kind of like fast paced Whit Stillman kind of dialogue and stonery and, and just like doing a lot of goofs and gags. I think you just risk, like really embarrassing yourself, you know, like, uh, like class clown who like, isn't funny.

1:24:34Jane Schoenbrun:That, that was the fear and being in rooms where people like are enjoying the humor of the movie or like feel that the perspective, like that they, they can like go along with it and have a good time has been so gratifying. Cause it, it, yeah, it's just a huge part of who I am. And, um, and it did feel like, uh, yeah, like freeing to, to be myself in the movie in a way that like I hadn't before. Um, I, um, yeah, I, I remember really feeling on set, like, like liberated from some, some like conception of myself post TV glow of like, oh, I'm like, I'm the, I'm the like sad teen person, you know?

1:25:14Jane Schoenbrun:Um, or like this fear of that as the like one hit wonder or something of like, everything is defined by what that movie's tone was because it was such a moment for me. And in general, making this movie and being like, oh, I feel so free making something completely different. And I'm looking at it and I'm realizing that I can have a long career of doing things that are surprising and different. Like that was a really, yeah, it was like five years of living in this reality of like, maybe everything will sort of be in the shadow of that. And immediately with this one, I was like, no, I'm going to have like a whole life and career of making things that are completely different.

1:25:55Forgive the simplicity of this, but how do you know you're doing it right when you're in a movie that doesn't really have a lot of comps? Like I couldn't, there's not a ton of movies you can specifically explicitly compare this to. So when you're performing, you're obviously getting direction and you're having conversations. But I'm curious, like how you know, is this too campy? Is it not campy enough? Is it funny enough? That's such a good question.

1:26:21I mean, for me over the years, I guess partly it's been trusting my instinct on things. I feel like there have been times where I've showed up with quite a bold choice. I remember with Great Expectations many years ago, I hadn't really even done her voice out loud to myself, let alone to anybody else, when I showed up on set the first day and spoke as her in front of the camera. And it only occurred to me after the fact, like after we were done shooting, that the director could have said, what the fuck are you doing? It's just weird. Like, don't this. No, no. Let's try something else. And I guess I've had a few instances like that where, you know, where I was asked a question the other day on one of the things that we were doing.

1:27:22and one of the things that I said that I wouldn't have been prepared for as a drama student was the degree to which you're so often on your own when you're trying to put all this stuff together and work all this stuff out because so much of the time you know if you're doing television or you're doing a few episodes or something or you're doing you know there's not necessarily that rehearsal period with directors or there's not necessarily you know you really kind of show up on the day and you're meant to go. And, you know, I've made some pretty bold choices over the years that may or may not have worked, but they could have, you know, really not.

1:28:05And, but I felt like with Jane, I felt like from the moment we started talking about the project, that even though I was, you know, in my head was keen on doing Southern, a particular Southern, and even, you know, the makeup choices with the twiggy eyes and all the different aspects, I could trust that they would find a way to gently tell me that it wasn't working if it wasn't or whether it was too much or whether, you know. And so I felt in that instance that we'd have a dialogue and real communication about it, whereas there's other things that I've done where that level of trust or potential collaboration wasn't necessarily there.

1:29:01And it really was, it felt like it was winging it a lot more, which I think is a lot of what happens these days. There's a lot of really talented directors out there who aren't necessarily good at communicating with actors. They may be good at the visuals and they may be good at the technical aspects, but they're not also so knowledgeable about what is needed from every single scene from the performers that they know even how to communicate that. And that's quite a rare talent in and of itself. And Jane certainly has that where I found that. What about for you, Hannah? Yeah, you know an avatar where they take their braid and they connect it to the tree branch and then they're able to kind of just like download the truth.

1:29:43Of course they do. Awa, yes. I know all about it. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. So that's kind of what it's like for me. Me and Jane kind of just. Am I the tree? Yeah, of course. Yes, obviously. I'm the tree from Avatar. Yes. Literally. It's just like that sort of like that's the connection. It's the connection. Like the script is kind of that like connection point. But also like we just had like a lot of deep and vulnerable conversations about the subject matter. And for me, my approach was just to be like, what is the reality here always? Like just tapping into that. That's all I was concerned with.

1:30:21I think that like scene to scene, you can sort of tell as you're moving through the work on the day, like what it's asking of you. That sort of ending is far different from some of the more comedic beats, you know. But even in this Zoom call, which like is this comedic point in the film, like for Chris, that is dead, dead fucking serious. Like she has just had this crazy experience. She's coming like, you know what I mean? Like for the comedy, it has to be serious. And so I'm always approaching the work of like, what is real to this person? Like, no concern for the meta, sort of the, you know, the way that it's being perceived, just like staying in the reality of the thing.

1:31:03It's great to hear you say that. It's the funniest scene in the movie. I assume that scene comes out of whatever water bottle tour you went on over the period after the first or second film?

1:31:14Jane Schoenbrun:um i was you know i have been getting this question a lot and uh one of the i think like one of the earliest inspirations for this idea in the movie in general of like zombie ip right of like find the find the like minority creator who who like pairs up to the material that like lets you resurrect the otherwise unresurrectable franchise um was after world like right after World's Fair. I was getting like what happens after you premiere your tiny little art film at Sundance and you happen to be trans is like you just get like a slew of scripts written by cis people that like haven't been getting made about trans people and they're like oh we get you in here.

1:31:54Jane Schoenbrun:But I also got submitted the Leprechaun reboot. Fantastic. I was so amused by this because it sounded like something clicked in my brain where I was like I think they're sending those to me because they think that like trans will cancel out.

1:32:15Jane Schoenbrun:They're like, oh, if we got a trans director, like no one's going to ding us for making a leprechaun movie. The Irish little person movie. That is very funny. Maybe that got me started thinking about this whole sort of like idea of like, yeah, like plugging up their holes of like potential like cancellations on the internet or whatever from franchises. But yeah, no, I think it's just like I try to let what needs, like whatever, when you're making a movie, you know, and I work on these movies before I show it to anyone for like years often. It's like you're just listening to your world, you know, and you're keeping your antenna up and you're letting in the things that are coming in and post TV glow or during TV glow.

1:33:05Jane Schoenbrun:Like, yeah, there were a lot of Zoom meetings and being like the trans person in the room on those Zoom meetings and dealing with the social dynamics. And I'm, you know, like I'm sensitive. I'm sensitive to power dynamics and to the thing that's unsaid in the room or on the Zoom. yeah that was like a big part of my life it still is a big part of my life like being trans in Hollywood and being in those spaces and being both like tokenized and also like having some like yeah like otherness that is being like commodified or whatever and participating in that commodification and like seeing some of the worst men in the world do their thing yeah it just like it had to be in the movie because like I was a trans person trying to make another movie in Hollywood And, you know, it's like it's pretty on the nose about it, but it would have felt a lot less truthful, especially, you know, especially because it's a movie that's like trying towards liberation or that's trying towards like some ideal of like free queer expression.

1:34:09Jane Schoenbrun:right this is what hannah's character is like really questing towards in the movie is like i want to make something that is like as she says beats hollywood at its own game or is like yeah like free to express itself without the shackles of those men on those zoom calls yeah and so like in a sense i was trying to do that and i was also very aware that like that's not possible entirely um in this space because of like all of the other forces at play And so it just like for the movie to feel honest to me, it needed to be a part of it. It's interesting. It's like your confrontation with the minotaur or something and you have to try to get past the minotaur.

1:34:48This is like a much more practical question, but I was curious about this because, Jane, you mentioned the geysers of blood. From a practical perspective, when you're working on a scene that has a lot of blood, you have to reset. What happens? Like, do you have to just change wardrobe completely? Is the set being completely cleaned? and I've never talked to anyone about this. And I feel like this. No, it's a great question. So what happens? Depends on the budget. Yeah. So you know how in Avatar there's... No, it's crazy for sure. I have, personally, I have sensory issues. I have like sensitivity to certain sounds and sensations on my body.

1:35:30One of which is any liquid with any sort of fabric that is, like if there's water on me, let's say I'm out of the shower and I don't dry off properly and I put like a shirt on. Crawling, skin crawling, even if it's water. Okay, so I'm coming into the situation like, I'm going to die. I'm going to absolutely die. And I'm passing away in real time. And so basically it was crazy. I was like sticky head to toe with the like blood that was on our faces and then there was the tube the side sort of tubing which pumps the blood into my mouth that I'm choking on but it's also spilling out of my mouth and filling the beds the bed is is soaking up with blood like completely soaked and there's we didn't have a backup bed I don't think so I was and like that day like they kept making

1:36:25Jane Schoenbrun:these like really sloppy mistakes. It was like one of the only times that I got so protective of you when I realized how much you were suffering. I was like, Hannah is suffering. I sat that bed. You were literally mama bear. Okay. You were like, get away from my cub, literally. But yeah, it was really crazy. It was really, yeah, we had to time like the blood filling up for me and then Jillian, the blood coming out of her mouth and spitting onto my face. There's like a guy under the bed with like a pump. He's just going, go. Oh, man. And it was pretty cool though. The blood, they were mixing it up with a drill.

1:37:05Just like, zing! Like drill into a bucket of blood. It's like driller killer, yeah. Really crazy. So that sounds horrible, honestly. That doesn't sound fun at all. It was most horrible. I will say this though. I've never felt more beautiful than when I was covered in blood. Why? I just felt like it was, I don't know how to describe it. I just think that last split diopter shot with Jillian and I in blood is just like glorious and liberatory. And perhaps because on some level I'm realizing in real time that Jane expressed something to me about the gas station scene in the end where like they were like, you know, like being visibly trans and moving through the world, like sometimes in certain areas or in certain settings, like, you know, there's that cutaway to that old guy who's like.

1:37:56you know what I mean it's like sometimes people look at me like I'm covered in blood but like it is this moment where the characters are just in love and they don't care and that was so meaningful to me and so I think when I got into the blood I was feeling like I was tapping into that acceptance and love and beauty and like all of the things that I feel like Jane has like walked this hard-fought path to to tap into and feel and perhaps I made some association between what you shared with me and how it felt to be in the blood. You also look great. And also, honey, come on. So I assume the film was not shot in sequence, but one thing that I love about it is it does really feel like the two of you are creating a genuinely intimate relationship over time across the movie.

1:38:42I was wondering, like, how much time you spent together before the movie, or did you talk on set? How do you create the illusion of connecting? we had a few days before we started shooting rehearsing we had a we read a couple scenes over a couple days we chatted from time to time but you've got a connection or you don't I mean it's either there or it isn't it feels like do you try to withhold anything when you're meeting someone early and you know like what work you have to do not purposefully I don't feel like I do um I think we just both really thought a lot about what we were going to do and like made our individual decisions about what we were going to bring to the movie and like really did some deep and serious meditation on like how that progression should happen.

1:39:35And then in collaborating with Jane, kind of modulating that and steering it. I just think like the end product of this thing is like everybody having the same idea of what the movie is and how that obviously and how that like, you know, hinges so much upon what happens between us. I think we just like. I think it was helpful that we started pretty much at the beginning, though, in the film. I think that, you know, whenever one can do that, it can only be helpful because so often you, you know, your first day is your death day or your divorce day or that's been my experience. Um, but also, um, one thing I didn't realize beforehand, how, how much I would need to walk a fine line between, um, you know, I didn't want to be a predator.

1:40:30I didn't want to be creepy. I didn't want to make the first move. I didn't want to be too maternal. You know, all those things that, um, and there were so many scenes and opportunities. to go one way or the other that wouldn't have been beneficial to their journey together. And I suddenly realized that it was something that I really needed. It needed a lot of thought and care, and I hadn't anticipated that quite so much. I mean, I think I brought it up at some point, particularly in regards to our first kiss and, you know, not even necessarily even wanting to lean in, but allowing her to take her, you know, to really be in her power at that moment and be the seducer.

1:41:24And, you know, and so I think because we were able to start at the very beginning of our relationship. There's a certain point where I'm kind of in the clear, in a sense, because we fall quite quickly after the first intimacy scenes, after the scene where we're smoking the joint and stuff. It feels like from that point on, it was safe to fall in love in a way, or to show that I'm equally smitten and stuff. So it was, you know, it was, but yeah.

1:42:08Jane Schoenbrun:And for me, it was, I got to know both of you guys individually in the lead up to it. But no, it wasn't until two or three days before production that we did the first rehearsals all together. And seeing you both like read, like we just read through a bunch of times those early scenes where you're meeting each other. And I remember just being like, oh, this is the movie. Because it's the accent that Jillian is doing. And it's the strangeness of the way that you're playing each other a little bit at the beginning there. But it's just the disconnect. And yeah, it's a very specific energy that you enter with that I had a fuzzy picture of in my mind but it was like only until I saw you both together that like what the chemistry actually was started to reveal itself and then you're like yeah I also am glad we shot in the order we did because then it like you you let one thing inspire the other like I remember that first day when we were shooting the like you guys getting ready to eat dinner together and I was talking about this the other night to Jillian like the I feel like something opened up for me with the movie when I I saw her like patting the chicken, you know, she's like putting so much chicken on this platter.

1:43:24Jane Schoenbrun:And then she kind of is giving this very elegant, caring pad. And Eric was like, we got to get a close up of that chicken pad. And I was like, totally agree. But I was like, yeah, there's like a freak, there's a weird kid energy to the film and the way they fall in love that I think is like very queer. And like there's something of like a quality in it too, right? It's like you're looking for these signals in each other that you're like game to just be like freaky, you know, and to do these like sort of, yeah, like these mating rituals of like eating chicken or like enjoying dipping sauce or being like, go get scared in my room.

1:44:04Jane Schoenbrun:Like just like doing like matching each other's freak in this way. Yeah, but what I didn't realize until after I started talking about it for these interviews is that those scenes couldn't have been played like four play scenes. The way that they worked was playing them straight up for what they, you know, it's an eating dinner scene. And even though there's a particular way that Jane wanted me to say, do you like dipping sauce and et cetera, et cetera. And they had it in their head for me in terms of what worked was the juxtaposition between Billy's naivete and innocence, which I keep coming back to, you know, which leads to, you know, Mickey did that, you know.

1:44:55And the juxtaposition between that and Hannah's anxiety and nervousness and diatribe and etc., that those two, the two rhythms of that and speed of how they exist in the world are the tension that actually makes their coming together more alive and more interesting. in a way. And I think had I been playing too much, you know, that it was a seduction, I think that some of that might have been lost. And I don't think I even realized that until after the bat.

1:45:40Jane Schoenbrun:Totally. Hannah, did you feel like in the same way we're talking about maybe some of your experiences mapped being seduced and being asked to be in such intimate settings in your first big movie? Did you bring some of those same anxieties to any of this experience? You know what? I think I felt so much anxiety leading up. And then I think genuinely when we got to the island and Jane and I did our first rehearsal, I had so much relief. And after Jillian and I did the scene work together, it was like total relief. Like I just felt like, okay, this is like, I feel that the thing is working and it's here.

1:46:23I think that that really just was my work to keep up that anxiety and to just maintain that frequency for sure. I think like the intimate scenes, the thing is that like, just, I don't know, like I said, Jane and I did so much talking about what we had to portray there, but also the ways in which the thing that's being portrayed is true for us both. And it was through that that I felt genuinely like walking in confident to portray something that is incredibly familiar to me. So yeah, I don't know that I was actually feeling any of that. I think it was kind of all a facade. Acting, baby. Well, the minute that Hannah walked out, you know, naked, but for her underwear from the bathroom, there was such...

1:47:28She was completely spellbinding. Like, she came out with such confidence and was radiating a sexiness and an assuredness. And it's like you couldn't take your eyes off her. You guys are recording? You got this? The cameras are recording?

1:47:49Jane Schoenbrun:Send the video of us to the iMinder. It's on. No, but it's so true. I was completely bowled over. I'm trying not to say anything. I'm trying to tell myself here. It is like the buddy love and the nutty professor thing where you're like, oh, wow. It is like there's a transformational. Yeah. Who's more embarrassed me or you right now? It's all natural, man. It's cool. Acceptance, man. I accept. Millennial question for you. I need to hear you talk about the Counting Crows Needle Drop. I need to hear the exegesis on this. My second cousin was their guitar tech. Oh, wow. 90s yeah what a connection did you know that have you heard that before you're dropping this now yeah yeah yeah and so I went to see them when I was like 11 years old and went backstage and got their autograph on like a on a glossy you know like on a on a promotional photo and uh can you recreate Duritz's facial expression in that glossy um I'm gonna pass it over to my actors right now how to get get in the get in the hair chair for those dreads

1:49:08Jane Schoenbrun:I love The Counting Crows yeah I mean they're in rotation I had a big breakup in 2024 I was like finished I was getting ready to like start really like making this movie and I wrote the script for Night Swimming another millennial banger maybe that's a Gen X banger we share it yeah we share it I claim it too and and I was yeah for whatever reason like during this breakup I reached for from Recovering the Satellites, the second Counting Crows record, which I'd always liked whenever as much as August and Everything After. And I was just listening to it and I was in Spain at a festival and I was just sitting at coffee shops in Spain, like really angsty listening to that record.

1:49:47Jane Schoenbrun:And it felt like really good in its way. And then like something about Long December just like got stuck in there where I was like, oh my God, I think this might be a better choice than Night Swimming. And Night Swimming is like my favorite song. So I was like, that's crazy. I think it was it's just it is a perfect song but it's also yeah it's like a song about like this year has been really long and really shitty and like maybe next year is going to be better this kind of like hard won triumphant resilient kind of like becoming that is what that scene is about and in many ways is what the movie is about but without that song and that tone and those na na na's you know it's like it's all about the contrast between seeing like these geysers of blood and heads flying into the air and and that and that kind of like piano uh vibe um yeah and i i somebody put me in touch with with with adam duritz and we texted a little bit and he said i've always wanted long december to be part of a killer one-er it's like hell yeah yeah yeah i don't He literally got one, though.

1:50:58Jane Schoenbrun:No, he said that. I don't know if he's seen it yet, but I mean, no, I mean, I love The Counting Crows. I could go deep on The Counting Crows. Besides, you want to talk about it, you let me know. I produced a documentary about them, so I know all of that. You produced that documentary? Yeah, I did. I've seen it. I've seen it. Yeah, yeah. Complicated movie. Interesting. Amazing career. Fascinating guy. I think he like, can I say one last thing about The Counting Crows? Please do, of course. It's a safe space. Because I also like, my band, when I was like 15 was Bright Eyes. Like I loved Bright Eyes.

1:51:27Jane Schoenbrun:And I think there's like a lineage of like people that it was like embarrassing to like if you were a boy. I think that this was sort of the vibe for Counting Crows was like they got, they got like post-Nirvana, kind of like a lot of flack for not being like masculine or being like whiny or being like too pretty boy or something. I think it has a lot to do with gender, you know, or I think that like there's like an earnestness and like an emotional forthrightness in that music and in Bright-Eyes music that like is wonderful. And I felt really embarrassed to like it during the years that I was growing up and liking it and yeah, deserving of some reclamation.

1:52:13Okay. Last couple of things here. I'm curious, will you make any more horror movies now that you've made one? and you're now part of the lineage of this history of film and you stood in your first starring role. Will you make more? I'm curious. Because Scream Queen and Final Girl, these are also iconic delineations in movie and TV history. So I'm curious how you feel about them now having made this. I had actually tried for a while. Jason Blum, I'd met him a couple of times and we tried to make a couple of different things over the years. So I haven't been against it. Also, you know, obviously a good portion of the X-Files was horror adjacent.

1:52:59And so I feel like it's in my bones, even though it's not something that I've been able to absorb as a viewer. um I've been offered stuff over the years and and sometimes um depending on what it is sometimes it feels so dark I just don't know if I can put myself in that place um and um but I'm not adverse to it it's more of the of the right thing coming along and it was important to me that that that this had, it's so much more than just that and has so much depth and humor, obviously. And so this feels like a definite first, in a sense. If I was going to have a first, this would be the perfect first.

1:53:58But so I'm not adverse to it. Okay. What about you, Hannah? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm totally down. Line them up. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of genre agnostic. Like, I just like good shit no matter what it is. Makes sense. Okay. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. You're not prepared for this. No, no.

1:54:22Jane Schoenbrun:I'm happy to talk about the last great thing I've seen. Who wants to go first? Jane, you want to go first? Yeah. The other night, like, I got to L.A. I had a night off. I looked and saw what was playing at the Regal. And they were playing End of Evangelion. Oh, yeah. And so I got myself an extra large Icy. And I planted down. And that fucking movie is so amazing. That's like one of the great films. And at the end of that movie, the last line is just disgusting. Somebody says, disgusting. that the movie ends. And that just like put me in the exact right mindset for this press tour week. Disgusting.

1:55:10Disgusting. I could go.

1:55:12Jane Schoenbrun:Go. I saw a film called Bouchara. Tell me about it. It's an animated sapphic, furry, trilingual, French-Moroccan, very like small, intimate family drama. Dramedy, perhaps. It's funny. It's an animation style I've never seen. It's really cool. There is this like, yeah, the visual world is like so intricate and like vivid and thought out. And the style of the voiceover is incredibly casual as if there's no script. And it's super, it was super moving and sweet and romantic and funny. And it was unlike anything I've ever seen. Where did you see it? Lemley? Lemley, in the theater. Okay, cool. Jillian, what about you?

1:56:07The very, very last film I saw was The Invite. Oh, yeah. What did you like about it? Olivia Wilde's latest film, and I thought it was fantastic. I find her such a confident filmmaker, and the complexity of the relationships, and, you know, it's on quite a consistent pitch throughout and yet you don't feel like you're participating in a scream fest. It has a lot of undulations and all the characters are so well played by all the actors and Ed Norton and Penelope Cruz are just so phenomenal and watchable and I just thought it was fantastic. Another movie that kind of glides between tone pretty comfortably in the same way as your movie.

1:57:00Hey, this was really nice. Jane, Hannah, Jillian, thank you so much for coming in. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thanks to Jane, Hannah, and Jillian. Thanks to Adam. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh for his production support. Next week, we're going to Oak Street all the way to the end of it. CR and Mallory Rubin will join me to discuss the new dinosaur thriller. We'll see you then.

1:57:44I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX's The Bear. The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay.

1:57:58Jane Schoenbrun:Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned, but we have each other. FX is the bear. The final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney plus. This episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.