The Flops Movie Draft

13:07Bill Simmons:So this will have the most negotiation with the picks. Okay. Okay. I think it has to be agreed on that this movie ultimately was considered to be bad for the star when it came out. I didn't take it to mean that. Yeah. It didn't do well, but even if it did okay. We're picking movies. But Waterworld did okay. Like, it made the money back. Oh, in that sense, yes. I understand what you're saying. You know what I mean? Yes. But that still was bad. It's an avatross around his neck. Yes. I think if there's some sort of collateral damage to the star, you know, then that's it. Okay.

13:41Sean Fennessey:The next category is the$100 million losers club. Adjusted for inflation. Adjusted for inflation.

13:47Bill Simmons:That was a key add because there were not a lot of$100 million.

13:52Sean Fennessey:We could be drafting movies from the 90s that did, adjusted for inflation, lose$100 million. The next category is Ebert, zero stars. This was amazing. Yeah. I never read this full list. I can't wait. Really quite something. There is a list of films that Roger Ebert gave zero stars. And actually, what's most interesting to me about the list is what isn't on the list. You know, like you see there's some obvious stuff. There's some surprising stuff. We'll talk about it. We'll be able to get some actually good movies, I think, out of this category. next category is sub 25 % on Rotten Tomatoes

14:19Bill Simmons:another really fun list the final category with Rotten Tomatoes could it have been either side critics side

14:26Sean Fennessey:or fans side I was thinking just critics I was as well are there any films that are sub 25 % with fans they're usually so much more forgiving because fans are stupid is that what you're saying I didn't say that I said they're forgiving the popcorn meter or whatever yeah is that what do you look at first when you pop popcorn meter always yeah fuck the critics I'm a populist you are CR the last category is failed franchise launch so this is a movie that was there was hopes of it being a multi-part you know saga of some kind and the franchise stopped after this movie

15:00Bill Simmons:there's going to be some huge fights on that category

15:02Sean Fennessey:to me this is a more modern phenomenon this is a much more most recent 20-25 years than it is going back to the 80s or 90s but there are some examples in the 80s and 90s for sure and I would say most of this conversation will be about the 80s 90s and 2000s because we didn't really think of movies in quite the same way in terms of box office and critical revulsion as we do now. I would say a couple of these have they're open to interpretation and I look forward to a healthy debate while we make our picks. And I'll just say that I'm going to lead with love and that I think it's a... That's beautiful.

15:33I think that we're going to make some allowances for long time friends here. You think that's going to happen? I hope. How do you feel? I'm re-evaluating how I defined I'm back in the saddle. I'm thrilled to be back with my guys, including Bill.

15:51Bill Simmons:Amanda and I have had a great month. We have. We did Apollo 13. Got lost in space. That's true. We talked a lot about sports. He's very supportive to me. Yeah. So it's lovely to see you. She did her Kathleen Quinlan impersonation, which I know you guys have both seen. Tell me back on Monday, Friday. So we just redefined Starbomb in a way where I feel like I'm going to have to do a lot of Googling right now. so that's where my headspace is.

16:15Sean Fennessey:You're distracted. I can see you kind of slipped out of the pot for a second. Yeah, I did, but that was just kind of like, oh, no, I didn't think about this right. And that's okay. I'll get there.

16:22Bill Simmons:Can I ask about the goal for the draft? Yes. Are these movies that you like, or are they flaptastic? I'm treating this as you want to put together the best collection of movies to you that you can while also abiding by the criteria.

16:38Sean Fennessey:So I like that definition, and I won't try to disabuse you of it, But I also think if you have a slate that is the floppiest of flop slates, that's also kind of interesting to me. Like if you want that to be your goal. And then you can make a case for those movies as interesting artifacts of movie history.

16:55Bill Simmons:Sure. I might just take all politically incorrect flops. Okay. That might be my strategy. Sounds like a great podcasting. There's a few great ones in here. Starting with your hat.

17:09Sean Fennessey:Okay. We have a draft order that was recorded by Jack Sanders before he went on vacation. Howard. Here he is. Oh, wow. Producer Jack here to deliver the draft order for the first ever Flops movie draft. Very excited to give somebody the first overall pick for Babylon. Selecting first, wow, Sean Fennessey. Wow, there you go. That's big. Go figure. I already know Bill is going to claim this is rigged. Yeah. There we go. He is selecting second.

17:43Bill Simmons:Good instinct.

17:45Sean Fennessey:Okay, not helping.

17:46Bill Simmons:Amanda Dobbins. Oh, interesting. Okay. Shocker. I promise I don't rig these things. I don't really even see how valuable that would be for me. Selecting third. That's Chris. Bill Simmons. Wow. That means Chris Ryan will be drafting fourth. Happy drafting.

18:04Sean Fennessey:Now, is there an undisputed number one overall draft pick here, you think? No. I don't think so. I don't think so. And I think that we're probably not even targeting most of the same movies. Probably not. And yet, I still feel chafed. I think there will be more arguing about the rules than about movies. Theft. This was tricky. This involved a lot of actual box office research. Also, I just say to you once again, what have they done to all the box office websites? And then I'm redefining in my head what many of these categories mean and also what my goals are. Because if you're just going to shoot the moon and do the worst movies.

18:45Bill Simmons:Or am I? I guess we don't know. We'll find out after I pick.

18:49Sean Fennessey:You're the tone setter here. Yeah. Okay. I know what I want to pick and I'm pleased about it. I'm going Ebert Zero Stars first and I'm going with one of my favorite reviews of all time. And I'm selecting Freddy Got Fingered, Tom Green's Star Vehicle, which is a movie I saw in theaters. and absolutely loved. Thought it was hysterical. Number one. I thought... I mean, here we are. I thought this movie was so stupid and so wonderful. And I'd like to read you a brief passage from Ebert's review to commemorate this first overall pick. Yeah. This movie doesn't scrape the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't the bottom of the barrel.

19:27Sean Fennessey:This movie isn't below the bottom of the barrel. This movie doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with barrels. that's how he felt about this movie. He fucking hated it. And he rejected the premise that it was a surreal masterpiece. Right. You know, which was, it was immediately reclaimed as some brilliant revisionist idea. A.O. Scott wrote about this, that there was something singular about Tom Green's vision in this movie. I'm not sure if I even need to present it as just, I think it's really funny when he's - How many times have you watched it over the course of your life? I mean, it was on HBO a lot after it came out.

19:59Sean Fennessey:So 15? I mean, many times. And I've always had a really good time with it. And he basically killed his career.

20:05Bill Simmons:There was a social media clip of Tom Green getting, somebody came on his talk show on MTV and tried to set the desk on fire and he got mad at the person and it was super awkward. And the tweet was, this is what changed the course of Tom Green's career when he didn't have a sense of humor about this. I was good the entire time being against Tom Green and never thinking he was going to have a career. You were anti. I never got it. I never understood it. I thought he was funny in Road Trip. That was the one time I thought he was kind of humorous. He wasn't really my bag. Just didn't get it.

20:35Sean Fennessey:You guys are just a little too old. He married Drew Barrymore, right? He did. He did. I logged on for that part of the Tom Green experience. But otherwise, I was just...

20:43Bill Simmons:They were married when this happened. Oh, okay. That was one of the all-time, this one's not going to last marriages, I can remember, between two celebrities. The over-under was a year. But I would say Tom Green's appeal to me in that moment was just not a full circle with Drew Barrymore. And then once he was gone... Have you seen Freddy Got Fingered?

21:04Sean Fennessey:No. He sings a song called Daddy, Would You Like Some Sausage? While playing a keyboard that is attached to sausages that are strung throughout his home. And he sings it to Rip Torn, legendary actor. Okay. It's a very special movie. When is it going to be on the rewatch?

21:18Bill Simmons:Rip Torn has had a lot of things that he's done in his career that he probably hopes there are copies of. Or that he's like, I don't have any memory of making it. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't really there. Okay. That's the first overall pick. Interesting first pick. Thank you. I think it would have been available a couple rounds later. Yeah. But it was a tone setter. Sure.

21:32Sean Fennessey:You're trying to have fun here. So now I feel like I should be having more fun. And I guess I'll have a medium amount of fun. So I figured out Star Flop where I want to go with this, which is having fun, being true to the category, and also incredibly eligible, and maybe probably not taking away from anyone else. How do you know? No question mark. Wow. From Reese Witherspoon. Yeah. Killed a few careers.

22:02Bill Simmons:So you're taking that for Starbomb and not$100 million loser? I am. Okay. Yeah. I mean, were you going to take it for$100 million? No, I just thought it was eligible for both. It's eligible in many categories. But I do think that, I mean, this killed, not killed, but certainly put a pause on and re-trajectoried Reese Witherspoon's career. James L. Brooks, tough. Romantic comedy, as you can argue, died in this moment. And in fact, the great Amy Nicholson piece, I think it was 2014 about who killed the romantic comedy. How do you know is located as kind of like the great just things not working out despite so much money, so much talent, so much history.

22:45I can't say that I enjoy watching this movie, but there is something about I like everyone involved and I'm amused that it happened.

22:56Bill Simmons:it is it is pop culturally significant you left out softball sure softball was a big part of this movie and is i don't think ever been part of another movie i think this was this was the one time and only this movie ended a lot of things yeah okay it's really bad my wife really wanted to like it and just couldn't get there what was the jim brooks nick nolte movie i'll do anything. I'll do anything this one, the How Do You Know? No question mark and Alan McKay. A couple of... A triumvirate of

23:28Sean Fennessey:unsuccessful movies that are then dotted with incredibly successful movies around it. Crazy career. This is the last Jack Nicholson part. This is the last performance he ever gave in a movie. He's Paul Rudd's dad. It's 16 years ago. He hasn't been in a movie. A historic film in its own way. Good pick. It's most definitely a flop. Bill Simmons, you're up.

23:50Bill Simmons:I wore my Anderol hat because I knew we'd be dropping some bombs today. This first pick is not a bomb. Okay. But it is a Niebuhrd zero-star review. I can't believe it's still available. Police Academy. I genuinely like this movie. Me too. Saw it in the theater. Yeah. It led to like seven different sequels. And, you know, I get to say this on the rewatchable sometimes. Raj, fuck off. Zero Stars was harsh. Police Academy is solid. The audience laughed. Tackleberry? Yeah. Had some funny moments. Leslie Easterbrook? He's funny in this movie.

24:26Sean Fennessey:Leslie Easterbrook, you say? Leslie Easterbrook. Talented lady. Important person of the 80s to a certain demo. Absolutely. She had some skills.

24:33Bill Simmons:Gutenberg, this really launched him to something. Were you pro-Gut? I was. I like Gut. He's free in this. Gut had a nice run.

24:42Sean Fennessey:Did that cross your path at all, Police Academy Films? I don't think so. I think, but Gutenberg was one of the three men and a baby. And he was in his tight area. So I was there for that.

24:52Bill Simmons:Michael Winslow doing weird voices. He's in this. Solid movie. Yeah.

25:00Sean Fennessey:Ebert famously, real blind spot on sophomoric comedies.

25:04Bill Simmons:Yeah, no question.

25:05Sean Fennessey:He didn't really get, he didn't get Chris Farley, he didn't get Sandler, he didn't get Police Academy. Wasn't his back.

25:12Bill Simmons:We've done a couple where he just, scathing reviews, and it's usually raunchy. He hates unnecessary kind of veering on the sex side, but in ways that's not really, I don't know, good intentions. He really hates that. What is Raj like, though? He likes story. Raj likes story and character. He loves character. Guess what didn't have either of those things? Police Academy. Do you have a favorite Police Academy movie? Citizens on Patrol. I was like asking me.

25:42Sean Fennessey:I think one. Is that number four? That's the one where it's like everybody can be a cop. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course you believe it. I'm going to line this prequel. Yeah.

25:53Bill Simmons:So I'm going to take that. Okay. And then. That's the Raj. You don't have the turn. You don't have the turn. It's not the turn. What do you mean there's no turn?

26:00Sean Fennessey:No, it's Chris's turn. It's my turn now.

26:02Bill Simmons:No, I don't have the turn. I don't have the turn. You're not on the turn.

26:05Sean Fennessey:Damn it. Let's have. Wow. Citizens on Patrol had Leslie Easterbrook and Colleen Camp. Sheesh. Damn. And Sharon Stone. My God. What the hell? What an important franchise is Raj doing? Okay. for Star Misfire. Yeah. You're not going to, you said Star Flop, you're saying Misfire. The name of the category is Star Bomb. Star Bomb. For Star Bomb, I'll do Brad Pitt for The Assassination of Jesse James. Wow. Good choice. Which is one of my favorite movies of the century, but also a movie that made$4 million domestically. What happened? Well, I think Andrew Dominick is a very deliberate director and it took a while to finish this film and I think Brad Pitt is a hands-on producer and probably worked on it in his deliberate way.

26:51And then it turned out that America didn't want to watch a meditative tone poem scored by Nick Cave about how Casey Affleck was an autistic guy who killed Jesse James. And that is basically what the movie's about. But the cast is dynamite. It's Pitt, Affleck, Jeremy Renner, Sam Rockwell, Zooey Deschanel, Mary Louise Parker, Sam Shepard. Sam Shepard. You can always count on him. So this was Brad Pitt almost immune to bombs, I would say, because he's got a few. Yeah. I don't know. We're going to find out this fall. Heart of the Beast time? Is that the dog movie?

27:37Bill Simmons:Are you familiar with Heart of the Beast? I am. I've been following the Brad Pitt media coverage intently. He's off the wagon now. Yeah, it's tough. that's a real it's gonna be interesting timing on that announcement

27:49Sean Fennessey:did he come forward to announce that he did on a podcast he talked about it on a piece for Esquire it felt a little

27:56Bill Simmons:I wanna jump ahead of something that might come out let me plant my flag here now could be just a theory Heart of the Beast will you see it I'll definitely rent that because I love dogs the Simmons family loves a dog's purpose do you worry about the dog's fate in a movie like do you have to know that the dog's gonna be okay I'm better with it my wife wants to know if the dog's gonna die before she watches the movie yes a thousand percent yes which must make watching any horror movie impossible because as soon as you see a pet walk across the screen in a horror movie you're like it's gone it's over for this cat I mean where where it gets crazy is Mallory not being able to see Obsession right right that's where pretty bad cat stuff in that though I totally forgotten about it it's just a cat sandwich I liked Obsession spoiler alert for Obsession

28:43Sean Fennessey:yeah 2007, 2008, he had Ocean's 13, Assassination of Jesse James, Burn After Reading, and Curious Case of Benjamin Button. So he actually, he tends to bounce back. Yes. You know, like he had. And he's got, let's say. And then in comes Moneyball. That the dog movie does not do well. Cliff Booth, two months later. Yeah. Another dog movie.

29:05Bill Simmons:I like the Brad Pitt stretch when he's just making really bad movies for like five years. And he has all of a sudden like seven kids. and just the tourist and all of those. There's like a really bad stretch in there. Is the tourist him or Angelina Jolie? No, that's Johnny Depp. And Johnny Depp. Two by C? Two by C. Yeah.

29:22Sean Fennessey:That's bad. By the C is he and Angelina, which is a fascinating movie. I would encourage other people to watch. It's bad, but it is so interesting. Don't they break up right after that movie? Yeah. Okay, so... I wanted to break up after that movie. Brad Pitt, assassination of Jesse James for Starbomb. Okay. Good choice. No argument there. here's where I wonder whether I'll get some pushback. So by the letter of the law I would like to take under$30 million box office mass release. I would like to take Shawshank Redemption.

29:55Bill Simmons:I don't see the case. I don't think it was characterized as a flop. Both of you leaned back in your chairs as if like a double. Made$28.3 million. What was the budget? That's typical Eagles fan bullshit. Okay. Trying to search for an edge. I'm trying to search for an end

30:13Sean Fennessey:kind of this hush push of drafting it's like a hush push pick

30:15Bill Simmons:nobody at any point thought that movie was disappointing or a bomb and then after it got the Oscar nomination it had a nice route much like many films in the 90s had a second life I'm not saying it didn't but in its initial release I think it's a disgrace to put this in the flops draft

30:32Sean Fennessey:it's total theatrical gross after the Oscar nominations was 73 million and it was budgeted at 25 million okay so it made 3 million dollars in its initial release, though. I'm interested in the decisions that we made to put Sean and Bill in matching black shirts on opposite ends of the table. Yeah, facing each other just ready to go. That can't be in the draft. Okay, we're going to take that off. It's a sensitive one because that's, you know. Take it off the board and I will keep in mind what you guys just did. So, moving on. and when will you stop you from cheating is that what we did a movie that I liked more in retrospect than I did maybe when I first saw it and I'm happy to take it due to the extent of its losses is Furiosa Mad Max Saga which lost 123 million dollars this is definitely eligible and pretty much put a bullet in the Mad Max franchise I would say for the time being and given George Miller I don't even remember when this came out two summers ago right 2024 May 24.

31:39Yeah, missed it. Anya Taylor-Joy and Chris Hemsworth. No Tom Hardy in this one, obviously. And George Miller still had it, still had some incredible tricks in the bag, but people were, I think, a little bit more sensitive about what they perceived as some CGI stuff. I think ultimately, the film didn't scratch whatever itch people had in terms of it being a quintessential Mad Max revenge story. It wasn't quite that.

32:04Sean Fennessey:Yeah, we talked a lot about its underperformance. when it came out. And you and I liked it but didn't love it. And I think it was in that weird zone where it was like nine years after Fury Road, which was both too short and too long a time. Like if it had been three years later, you might have been like, well, Fury Road is this incredible achievement. We need to feed the audience more quickly. Or like Fury Road, waiting 30 years later to reach that story again. But it kind of felt like just a general audience. But then they recast the entire cast. So it's long enough that you have forgotten the cast and can imagine a new world.

32:46But you don't bring any warmth of the previous thing. It was strange. I didn't really understand that movie. There's still some awesome sequences in this. And I actually like the ending quite a bit. I know this is hotly debated, but I thought the last scene was quite good. Did you see this movie? No.

33:01Bill Simmons:Not a Mad Max guy. Once we get into three and fourth third and fourth installments of a movie you gotta really convince me Yeah Yeah

33:15Bill Simmons:Is cruising on the board here for flaps?

33:19Sean Fennessey:I think you can make the case it's a star bomb That was my case This was I think this was I think this was detrimental to Chris is getting a little mad to Pacino's career Legitimately bad

33:29Bill Simmons:for Pacino Sentiment and tailspin for the entire 80s So 1985 only counted for a certain demographic of this. Okay. All right. Okay.

33:37Sean Fennessey:You really wanted cruising, but you didn't realize it was eligible. I just, I know with interest that Bill is doing this. That I can't have Shawshank, but he can have cruising. Shawshank was never considered a bomb or a flop or bad for anybody.

33:48Bill Simmons:I remember going to see him in the movie theater alone in Florida and be like, where are all the people? Cruising was like, why did Pacino do this? He's getting protested for a year. It sent him back in all these different ways. I think it has to count. I think it's a good Star Bond pick. Okay, thank you.

34:06Sean Fennessey:Is there anything else you want to say about cruising? I mean, we did a rewatch. We said a lot about it. It was the only

34:12Bill Simmons:4K Blu-ray that I've spent over$20 on. How much did you spend? It was like$40, whatever the price was. I was like, I'm getting this.

34:19Sean Fennessey:A wonderful addition from Arrow. Yeah. And thank you to them. Okay. Great movie. How many do you own now? When he's dancing. Okay. Okay, great.

34:32Bill Simmons:Cruising is an amazing movie. I love that Friedkin hated his guts and shit on him after. The research for it was great. And it's like that last era of the gritty, kind of gross New York movies that are basically from 1974 to 1980, where New York just seems like the most fun and dangerous place you could ever go in America. Yeah.

34:57Sean Fennessey:And it sends Friedkin kind of into his flop era. Yeah. You know, where he's coming off of Sorcerer failing and then this movie being so controversial and not doing very well. And then he has kind of an anonymous 80s. Some movies I like, but not a lot of big hits.

35:12Bill Simmons:Starbomb? Do directors count for Starbomb?

35:14Sean Fennessey:I thought about it and I took it off. I feel like that's a whole other pod.

35:17Bill Simmons:Yeah.

35:18Sean Fennessey:You know? Yeah.

35:19Bill Simmons:I think so as well.

35:20Sean Fennessey:The director movie draft.

35:23Bill Simmons:With the bombs in there? Create some categories.

35:26Sean Fennessey:Great. That's exciting. Don't steal that idea.

35:28Bill Simmons:Other podcasts doing movie drafts. Can Coppola have two categories for all his bombs?

35:33Sean Fennessey:I think so. I mean, yeah.

35:34Bill Simmons:Can we do a double Coppola category?

35:37Sean Fennessey:Okay, Amanda, you have a pick. In films that lost more than$100 million. Another one. Yeah. I will take your friend and your friend Steven Spielberg's West Side Story. Which lost$104 million. Come on. It's there. $104 million. Wasn't on my research. Before being adjusted for inflation. Coming out of COVID. Yes. Deep Coming Out of COVID. This is a beautiful remake and a beautiful movie. Sean loved it. It was great. It was, I think, number three on my list for the year. I was totally blown away by it. And that's as someone who also thinks the original West Side Story film is one of the great movies ever made.

36:16So I just don't understand what happened here besides COVID and I guess people not caring about West Side Story. If that movie came out right now, I wonder if it does well. I think it would probably benefit that movie to have like a stronger lead actor

36:33Sean Fennessey:it was Ansel Elgort yeah bigger name and then it was also and Rachel Zegler who is amazing and kind of the discovery of Rachel Zegler but then she's fantastic yeah Mike Feist but if Tom Holland starred in West Side Story what would happen it would be a much bigger movie yeah with a much shorter star can he sing he's gonna try with this Fred Astaire movie oh yeah I guess so that's true it like wow well we know he can't swing a sword okay web slinging is very good he wasn't allowed he had to honor Zeus's law yeah get the spears get the swords those are my favorite Pattinson line readings in that movie he was great really funny so good

37:14Bill Simmons:such a great Pattinson run right now it's electric I'm still going still going prime time I'm all in really from good time on he's just had my hand it would be good when he walked in with the Andrewle hat to be like, you see how this looks, right?

37:32Sean Fennessey:Did you ever watch To Catch a Predator? The show or the movie? The show. Pattinson's in the movie. Have you ever watched The Show To Catch a Predator? But did you watch that show?

37:40Bill Simmons:It made me feel bad. Yeah. Sure. I don't like content that just makes me kind of question everything. That's right. I agree. Yeah. But I did see a couple episodes. Not like drone bombing. Yeah. I did see a couple episodes. I love content that makes me question everything. well it's moved to social media now where they just confront people at like 7-Elevens that thought they were meeting and then they just punch the guy in the face oh yeah oh okay where were you at on bum fights I didn't care for them okay no I thought that was morally reprehensible yeah what about you Amanda but backyard wrestling okay oh interesting

38:13Sean Fennessey:yeah sure who was the fellow Kimbo Slice yeah were you interested in his work I enjoyed some of the early clips of him knocking people out did you like that were you into that I really enjoyed it enjoyed his whole career he was an entertaining character did you nope again I was just on a different end that was not your algo yeah no that's fine Kimbo Slice was an extremely jacked black guy who was well known for going into backyards and beating the shit out of people like unannounced

38:41Bill Simmons:like as part of backyard it was basically the Clint Eastwood Philo Beto movie okay every which way you can yep okay where he would just go challenge people and they'd just fight in like a street or something like that. And he would just

38:54Sean Fennessey:knock them the fuck out. It was really, it was quite a time. It was really early internet. Okay. All right, I have a pick, huh? So I've been trying to - Don't you have two? I have two picks, yeah. I've been thinking about this really in the spirit of the thing, which is like actually bombed and reviled movies that I like. That's kind of what I'm trying to do here. So for sub 25 % on Rotten Tomatoes, I'm going Congo, which is one of my favorite movies. Frank Marshall directed adaptation of a Michael Crichton novel right in the absolute peak of Michael Crichton mania after Jurassic Park. This is a story about a large corporation that sends a team into Africa to retrieve what they think is going to be some learnings about an ancient guerrilla civilization, but is actually on a mission to get very valuable diamonds.

39:46Sean Fennessey:On this mission, Laura Linney is heading up the team. she is the daughter of a very powerful leader played by Joe Don Baker her husband or boyfriend is played by Bruce Campbell he's clearly been beaten to death by these evil gorillas the weak part of the cast is Dylan Walsh he plays an ape expert who joins this team along with his I guess compatriot Amy who is a gorilla and Amy is there to bridge the gap between the gorilla civilizations and to help us learn more about how to communicate with gorillas. You can kind of see where this is going. Delroy Lindo plays a very powerful military figure in Africa.

40:27Sean Fennessey:Tim Curry plays an expert in ancient civilizations. He has a crazy goatee in this, right? He does. His name is Herkimer Hamoka.

40:37Sean Fennessey:Probably one of the funniest movies ever made. I will watch the entire thing every time I turn it on. I would kill to do a rewatchables about this movie. I think it is one of the most fun movies ever made. and it was honestly a loss of innocence when I found out that this movie got terrible reviews. Like this is a turning point in my life when I went to Newsday the day after seeing the movie opening night and I saw, it must probably was John Anderson who was just like, this is despicable tripe and should be deleted from society. And I was like, what? This great film? How could anyone say this about Congo?

41:12Sean Fennessey:And to this day, I represent Congo. So that's my pick. Laura Linney. I'm a fan yeah you have another one I got another one failed franchise launch I'm taking Guy Ritchie's The Man from UNCLE good one which was intended it is an adaptation of a TV show of course and was intended to be this new kind of multi-part star vehicle about these dashing men getting embroiled in crimes and solving crimes the only good usage of Henry Cavill in my opinion someone who's I feel like Hollywood it is completely misunderstood. I was trying to think. It's always the example that I give when Henry Cavill can do more and it is The Man From U.N.C.L.E.

41:55So now I'm trying to think of a second one. He's quite good in Mission Impossible, isn't he? Yeah, he was good in that one. He is good.

42:01Sean Fennessey:But that's sort of counter-programming where you're like, this is Superman so we're going to make him a villain which is an easy move. But, you know, Armie Hammer is one of the stars of this movie which is one of the reasons why this movie never comes up anymore but it also features Alicia Vikander, Elizabeth Debicki, Hugh Grant, great cast. maybe the last truly great Guy Ritchie movie. I have time for a lot of them, but this was a movie that was intended to be a big hit and it just was okay.

42:25Bill Simmons:Truly great. I would say... You still keep in touch with Armie Hammers here?

42:32Bill Simmons:Who do you...

42:34Sean Fennessey:Who runs the cannibal subreddit?

42:38Bill Simmons:What's that text reddit? It's probably quiet. Yeah, it's moved to WhatsApp. Did you ever meet him? I've never met Armie Hammer. Have you ever interviewed him? No, never met him. Don't know the man. Tall. Heard he's like 6 '5". Did you meet him? No, I just always heard he was tall. Like a tall actor. It's like a complete anomaly.

42:56Sean Fennessey:He is in a movie right now that we did not see a review on this show called Citizen Vigilante. But he has disavowed that film. Yeah. Huey Boll is the director of that movie. He said that that's not what Huey Boll told him it was going to be. Which is amazing that you could make a film and then be like, oh my God. He's back from the Bahamas? That's where he was for a while? Or Cayman Islands?

43:13Bill Simmons:Cayman Islands. Yeah, he was like selling condos. I want you guys to know something. I will definitely see Citizen Vigilante. I'm not paying for it, but when it's free on the cable channel, I will absolutely 100 % watch it. If you want to review later, tell me. I'm definitely going to watch that. I love Vigilante movies. It's me again?

43:30Sean Fennessey:Yes, it's you again. Okay, well, I'm going to put this one to the group, and I think it should be eligible. I'm not doing fraud here because it was considered a major disappointment. Or not a major disappointment, but a disappointment. they had bigger goals for it. Didn't know it was a disappointment draft. Well, we'll see. We'll be the deciders. So just to remind you, I was not sitting at the end of the table saying no to Shawshank Redemption. If you're going to turn on all of us, this is going to get real lonely for you really fast. I'm not. Okay. This is my favorite James Gray movie and a movie I love, The Lost City of Z, which was launched by Amazon Studios when Amazon was like, we're gonna make a lot of big movies.

44:13And it's a$40 million budget.

44:15Bill Simmons:I'm okay with this. It made$8 million. This is a wonderful movie. It also stars Charlie Hunnam. Okay, wow. He's just sitting over here. I'm saying that. I think that's great. With the little, the line emoji. I think it's great. Oh, sorry. You don't like La City of Z now? I love La City of Z. Why don't you want C.E.N. Miller to show me? I love La City of Z. Her best performance. What could it have been if people would give her the kind of roles that James Gray did? I love it. Robert Pattinson, also in the mix. Charlie Hunnam. yeah and I think Tom Holland right yes doing decent work yeah he's good I mean he's young yeah he's kind of kind of a prep for the Odyssey this is a beautiful movie it's an amazing film I love this movie okay thank you so much I do also remember seeing it alone at the Los Feliz 3 28 million dollars okay so yeah you're just showing him box office just yeah mojo for Shawshank Redemption oh for Shawshank Redemption I'm narrating what's happening to the people who are listening at home

45:08Sean Fennessey:28 million dollars domestically And Chris is looking at the numbers. Yeah. But that's under 30. It is under 30, but it's like just barely, and it's not a huge movie. Okay, it's usually in the future, but it's in the future. Don't say under 30, say like way under 30. Well, what I said in the introduction was that these were meant to be big studio tentpole movies. That's not what the Shawshank Redemption is. It's an adaptation of a short story. I didn't draft it under a franchise thing. I drafted it for the 30 million thing. Yes, I know. Okay. I explained to you what the expectations were. Did I not explain what the expectations were?

45:38Worldwide made more than 28. It did. Yes. It made 70. But we were doing worldwide. We were doing domestic. Worldwide, the last city of Z made$19 million. Only made eight in the US. It made more in France because they love. $28 million in 1994.

45:50Sean Fennessey:Sure. That's pretty good. How often when you're in a fight at home, do you say, just in the future? Because I just, I like, I just transported into your living room and you tried to do it with soap. It is actually a staple. This is so vivid. And I know. Just in the future. I feel like it never goes well. I just go, no big deal, but. in the future no big deal just know that this is what you're like I hope that half of Phoebe just felt my entire body like wake up and get ready to absolutely demolish you yeah okay you okay yeah I'm doing great so that's Lost City of Z in less than 30 million dollars domestic wide release 100 million dollar

46:28Bill Simmons:loser adjusted somehow Ali is eligible for this it is eligible and I'm going to take it because I love Ali and we just did it on rewatchables and it's a really good movie

46:37Sean Fennessey:is it good are we sure that it's good

46:41Bill Simmons:I think it has a couple of the best stretches which makes it a rewatchable

46:47Sean Fennessey:I agree it really kind of goes off a cliff at a certain point it never actually goes off a cliff it's just not as entertaining as I think you want it to be narcolepsy yeah just a little dull in the second half for a Michael Mann movie and for a Muhammad Ali movie

47:02Bill Simmons:I think he got overwhelmed by trying to figure out how to tell Muhammad Ali's entire story He should have Tony'd it. He should have just like picked one thing. Yeah, that would have been a good idea. Did you see Tony yet? No, somehow that didn't work out for me. Oh. It's a good story. I'll tell you sometime about it. This is a tough, the$100 million loser category is rough. I did not like a lot of the choices, so I wanted to grab Ollie.

47:27Sean Fennessey:It's challenging. I think what it requires for the most part is a reclamation, a saying like, I actually really like this movie. It is interesting that this movie did not do well.

47:39Bill Simmons:I don't know if it necessarily should be considered a flop but it definitely lost more than$100 million so I guess that's something not the only Michael Mann movie to say that by the way no there's a couple of Michael Manns out here why don't we take one right now okay go ahead so for the aforementioned $30 million category $30 million domestic wide release I'll take Black Hat there you go I think Bill and I contributed most of its domestic box office, personally. We even saw it together. Since sustained its home video and physical media releases. Also, thank you, Arrow. Could this have been$100 million, too?

48:20Did this lose$100 million adjusted or not? They didn't have an exact figure for this one, but it was anywhere between like$92 and$150 million. He just started shooting in China at one point. Yeah.

48:30Bill Simmons:He just gave zero fucks. But then there's also that weird moment where when we watched it in the theater, there was still a Getty Images watermark on one of the shots of the nuclear reactor. I forgot about that. So it's like, on one hand, he's like blowing all this money. On the other hand, he forgot to pay the Getty license. Anyway. Have you seen Black Hat? No, but I have listened to the Rewatchables Black Hat episode in full at least once and maybe twice. Okay. Because that's like, that's when you guys are really cooking, you know? You have to see it five times to understand what happened. And once you see it the fifth time, it all clicks for the rest of the eternity.

49:00You know how like when you hear old baseball announcers, like if you ever hear like a tape of Vince Scully or somebody and they're just like beautifully describing the action that's what I did with the Black Hat director's cut before it was ever available I did it based on memory from FX broadcasting it once

49:16Sean Fennessey:so you told yourself this is what the DC is yes

49:21Bill Simmons:it also has a hilarious Chris Hemsworth performance that ties into the rewatchability of the movie he tries to do a what was it a Chicago accent or a Brooklyn accent Yeah, he's trying to do the Neil Macaulay accent. He's just trying to be... And nobody said, ah, dude, just be Australian. Yeah. But he's just really committed to it. He's talking like this. Like Seagal. Time is luck.

49:44Sean Fennessey:Could you give me a one-sentence description of what happens in the film? Oh, man. Oh, a hacker brings down a nuclear plant, and then the only person who's good enough to catch him is another hacker. Yeah. And the other hacker is Chris Hemsworth. Why does he take down the nuclear plant? To hold the world hostage. but isn't it something about money about betting against that you said it in one sentence is he short again yes to catch a hacker

50:10Bill Simmons:you have to be a hacker that's the premise you said one sentence

50:14Sean Fennessey:I don't think you got it in totality do you want me to get into the Chicago mercantile market but that's not a sentence it's just going to be a long sentence add some clauses Black Hat's elite that's cute No, it's a great pick. It's not a great movie, but it's a great pick.

50:31Bill Simmons:It definitely fits the bomb flop category too, because I don't think anyone ever gave Michael Mann that amount of money again to make a movie. Yes, they did.

50:39Sean Fennessey:They gave him$95 million to make Ferrari.

50:42Bill Simmons:That's so much Ferrari.

50:44Sean Fennessey:And that's where I thought he might go. And so we've got Ali and Ferrari and Black Hat on the ledger, and still... And I don't think Public Enemy's made a lot of money, right? It did better.

50:53Bill Simmons:Okay. It did better. Sean, did you think about having an entire category for Adam Driver movies or no?

50:58Sean Fennessey:Well, we'll see. You know, he's going to be an X-Men villain. So I think everything's going to be all right on Adam Driver Island. Are you anti-Adam Driver?

51:07Bill Simmons:I'm a results guy, Amanda. Okay. I'm learning that. Every once in a while, you got to have a hit. You got to have a winning season. He took a lot of chances. On paper have made sense. And also he was Kylo Ren in the Star Wars. Have you seen the new Star Wars?

51:21Sean Fennessey:65. 65. I didn't hate it. It's not. It's fine. Yeah, it was fine. It's fine. You didn't see that. 65. and 65 refers to 65 million years ago where are you on but is it I believe so no I know but like at the ending it doesn't set up let's not spoil 65 for the millions and millions listening at home who've never seen it where are you on girls right now

51:48Bill Simmons:the renaissance is trying to happen yeah it's trying it's trying yeah it's been interesting with my daughter's generation it's not 100 % caught on

51:58Sean Fennessey:Driver and Chris Abbott were cast in the X-Men movies. Yeah, I saw that. So for girls fans, something is happening.

52:05Bill Simmons:I feel like it's still like two years too soon. I think like 2029, I think it really... Okay. We're not enough nostalgia-y away from it. That'll be 20 years. Yeah. 2012 it starts? No. I think, yeah. You need about 15 years. Is Girls on Netflix yet? Or did it ever have a Netflix run? So that's when it will probably take off.

52:24Sean Fennessey:When they license it.

52:25Bill Simmons:Because Sex and the City had a whole revival when Netflix ran it.

52:28Sean Fennessey:Yeah. All right, Sierra, I think you have another pick. I do. And for a failed franchise, I'm going to take Master and Commander, which was supposed to launch the Patrick O 'Brien, Jack Aubrey franchise. And it's just like they all loved making it. Peter Weir did an incredible job. Everybody was hopeful that they were going to keep making these movies. Concepcion loves that movie. Yeah. I mean, it's one of my faves. So really too bad because these would have been fantastic and it still stands as like a terrifically entertaining blockbuster.

52:58Bill Simmons:I'm going to take another Ebert zero star off the board because I don't really like the selections. What a movie called The Hitcher.

53:07Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I was surprised to see that this got zero stars. Rucker Hauer, Jennifer Jason Leigh. Wait, did you already take Police Academy? Oh, you did. Oh, yeah.

53:15Bill Simmons:Am I only allowed one? Yeah. Oh, I thought I had to draft a couple. No, it's one per category. Oh, then I'm not taking The Hitcher.

53:23Sean Fennessey:Somebody might want it in the future. Would you like to hear anything from the review of The Hitcher that Eva wrote?

53:28Bill Simmons:So this is a lot easier if we only have to do one. Yep. I thought we had to do like six. What made you think that you drafted before?

53:37Sean Fennessey:Wait, did you have a head injury? We don't draft 12 times.

53:41Bill Simmons:I was all excited. I was excited to really get into this.

53:44Sean Fennessey:Here's what Raj had to say in his closing paragraph about The Hitcher. But on its own terms, this movie is diseased and corrupt. I would have admired it more if it had found the courage to acknowledge the real relationship it was portraying between Howell and Rutger, but no. it prefers to disguise itself as a violent thriller. And on that level, it is to me reprehensible. He's such a moral King. Yeah. It was very important to him. Unless it was like this movie was entertaining. All right.

54:10Bill Simmons:So I'll, I'll do a, for failed franchise launches. Does next karate kid count? Trying to do a female karate kid? Is that no?

54:18Sean Fennessey:I say no because it is essentially part of the sequel thing. Yeah.

54:22Bill Simmons:All right. Back to the drawing board. Okay. Oh, man. There's so many good Rotten Tomato 25 and unders. It's a smorgasbord. I'm going to take 8 millimeter. Okay. Yes. First of all, outrageous that this is under 25 on Rotten Tomatoes. You people are all. What's the popcorn meter on this one? Absolutely outrageous. I am not affiliated with Rotten Tomatoes. You people. I am not on the tomato meter. These are people you sit with at screeners. They should all be ashamed.

54:52Sean Fennessey:It's at 52%. so it's still the tipped over bucket of popcorn it's not an upright bucket of popcorn it's an upright bucket of popcorn when Bill watches it that's exactly right there's about

55:06Bill Simmons:45 minutes of this movie that is like maybe the best 45 minutes of the 90s as soon as Joaquin Phoenix shows up this movie takes off we should make Amanda watch this I actually think you would like it it's just like a did you say Joaquin Phoenix I'm in yeah Amanda yeah You're going to see some things you can't unsee. Yeah. It's an actual quote from Angel Ameeter. I believe that. So we have to go into the darkest part of the sex movie world. Yeah. I couldn't recommend this movie more highly. Nick Cage, right as it's starting to flip for him. He's just starting to get pretty weird. Machine, played by Chris Bauer, an all-time that guy with an all-time performance.

55:50Bill Simmons:Gandolfini as scummy and horrible as he's ever been in a movie which is saying something because he fights Patricia Arquette in True Romance and might actually be worse than this movie Stormor and then Stormor our guy playing Dino Velvet and then the the the guy from Silence of the Lambs the doctor the evil doctor he's in this too okay yeah and then sadly he's a lawyer right Catherine Keener just is on the phone for like five scenes yeah He's like, honey, not going to be home for two more weeks. And she's just like holding a baby.

56:25Sean Fennessey:It's one of those performances.

56:27Bill Simmons:Yeah.

56:28Sean Fennessey:Joel Schumacher is one of the most interesting people in the history of movies. This is his run in the 1990s. Flatliners, dying young, falling down, the client, Batman forever, a time to kill, Batman and Robin, eight millimeter, flawless. What's flawless? That's Philip Seymour Hoffman and Robert De Niro. Philip Seymour Hoffman they play Neighbors

56:51Bill Simmons:it starts with a plane crash it doesn't start with a plane crash

56:54Sean Fennessey:that's Fearless no Fearless that's Fearless what's Flawless? Flawless is like a dramedy about a gay man living next door to an old crank and like they learn to love each other ah

57:06Bill Simmons:missed that one really? yeah I've never heard of this either really? yeah

57:14Sean Fennessey:Hoffman plays a drag queen and like De Niro is injured in some way and he has to help take care of him. Oh, is he like an ex-Marine or something like that or like an ex-cop? He's like, oh, god damn it. That's Linus you're thinking of. They're all active Marines in that. Okay. I think Amanda has a pick. I think so. I'm going to take the remaining film that I'm the most passionate about. So in failed franchise launch, I'm taking Salt from 2010 starring Angelina Jolie. Give me Salt 2. They set it up right at the end. She's in the forest. She's still got the bad wig. There's so much room to cover.

57:54Let's go. Would you reboot Salt with a contemporary? Great pick. Let her get Angelina Ian Salt, too. She can do it.

58:03Sean Fennessey:Salt colon pepper. There you go. And who's playing pepper? Penelope Cruz. I was going to say Gwyneth Paltrow, but yeah, there we go. Wow. Yes. I'm thinking ahead. This is a wonderful film that I believe our producer Jack Sanders still has not seen. That's okay. I'm trying to make it a thing on the big picture, but right now it's just me being like salt. It's totally okay. Average thriller. I'll tell you, though, I rewatched it a couple months ago just to see if my memory held up. And Zach was just poking his head in the other room being like, maybe I'll sit down and watch a little bit of this with you.

58:35And I don't really get him joining in that many of the rewatches. Did they make a second Wanted? I don't think so she has a few of those

58:45Sean Fennessey:I actually have wanted on my long list for failed franchise launch sounds good

58:48Bill Simmons:Angelina as an action star just never really got tapped into correctly I thought in Gone in 60 Seconds she's just absolutely elite what was the other one when she tried to become see the Tomb Raider films yeah the Tomb Raider one she did there was one more she did too the Firewatch one I just thought she was really believable in all because she was tall and she was athletic yeah she's perfect too bad she didn't want it she didn't want it she just wanted to have kids have like six kids just trape them around traipse them traipse them around do I have a pick? yeah you have two gosh

59:23Sean Fennessey:better look at this doc see where we're at saw it was really strong

59:25Bill Simmons:that should have been a franchise

59:27Sean Fennessey:so I need less than 30 million domestic star bomb and lost 100 million

59:34Bill Simmons:I think we should add a wild card category. We can if you'd like. Okay. Right now? No, no, just for maybe at the end. 100 Million Losers Club.

59:41Sean Fennessey:Again, this is cheating a little bit the way that Amanda did with COVID, but I'm going to do it anyway, and I'm going to pick the last duel. Speaking, it's Ridley Scott Week. No, that's fair. Here on The Big Picture. Yeah. This is a Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Jodie Comer vehicle about a violent sexual act told from three different perspectives in medieval times and is honestly a corker, like a really really entertaining movie really well made oh my gosh Nicole Hollisenter wrote co-wrote the screenplay with Affleck and Damon and I thought it was like a pretty slick and smart movie and after I saw it I was like oh wow Oscar time for the boys they're back this is great Ridley's going back and then nobody fucking saw it and nobody cared about it and it even got some reviews that were like this film is insensitive and I was like it's the exact opposite of that this is one of the only thought-provoking versions of a story like this ever made.

1:00:32Sean Fennessey:So I'm a big fan of this movie. That was 21? It was the same year. I think it's 22. It got pushed a little too

1:00:38Bill Simmons:because of COVID.

1:00:39Sean Fennessey:And it's the same year as House of Gucci which got absolutely pillory critically. And I feel like they kind of got lumped together. That movie was awful. And The Last Duel was obviously superior. I loved it.

1:00:48Bill Simmons:It was really bad. I mean, it's silly. Last Duel is a classic wrong time movie. Yeah. If it comes out in 2011, I think it does really well. I think if it comes out right now, it does really well. but it was like it was like the dead center of the Me Too era it's right after COVID I just I just felt like people didn't want to go see a movie like that

1:01:08Sean Fennessey:it was attempting to address a lot of what was in the culture but it actually isn't what people wanted to go to the movies for

1:01:12Bill Simmons:no nobody's going to the theater for that but now I think maybe in IMAX I think they would have redone things differently and I think that movie could have been a big movie it's good it's a good movie we gotta get some of our brightest minds on by the way Adam Driver's in that movie yeah identifying how much money there you go Ridley Scott has lost since The Martial. Like on all of his projects because it's Covenant, which I love. All the Money in the World, Last Duel, House of Gucci, Napoleon, Gladiator 2, and the upcoming Dog Stars. So that is an incredible run of films regardless of how they did are all very expensive.

1:01:47It's true. All the Money in the World is also really good. I like that movie. It's pretty good. It's pretty good for a movie that had to surgically implant Christopher Plummer into it. Yes.

1:01:56Sean Fennessey:One of the most famous reshoots of all time. And he was like, I can still make my date. He chose to delete Kevin Spacey. Yes, that was amazing. When he did it in like 14 days and then they finished the movie in time.

1:02:06Bill Simmons:I really respect that movie because the degree of difficulty had to have been like a 9.95 to do it on time.

1:02:12Sean Fennessey:You were still on Wahlberg Island back then too though. He could do no wrong. Were you out on Wahlberg these days?

1:02:18Bill Simmons:Ben and I just watched The Departed and he's so good in that I'm back in. It's like the best he's ever been. You know why? Because he embraced that he's a fucking asshole from Boston. He was like, this is who I am. And he fucking crushed it. He's so good in it. It's true.

1:02:31Sean Fennessey:Dobbins, you got another pick? Oh, I do? Wait, did you get two? I only did one. My bad. Okay. So I've got less than 30 million domestic and Starbomb. In Starbomb, I'm just going to go with an all-time classic. I'm going to do Ishtar. Okay. So. Great pick. You know, one of the most oft-cited, I think wildly misunderstood movie. And a movie that I think was damaged by the pre-release press, which is something that started to happen more and more in the early 1980s. And of course, Warren Beatty didn't make very many movies. So anytime he made a movie, there was a lot of scuttlebutt about it. And interesting movie in that like Beatty and Dustin Hoffman, the two stars are kind of like sort of flip parts and they're playing kind of the inverse of each other.

1:03:13Right.

1:03:14Sean Fennessey:Big mistake. You know, it maybe doesn't work as well as it could have. Features my goat, Charles Grodin, in one of his best performances. He's hysterical in this movie. He's the CIA guy or something? Yeah. Elaine May, very, very, very funny director and writer of the movie. And it got a really bad reputation and got really bad press. It didn't do like that bad at the box office. It made like 20 something million, but it was expected to be huge because it's this big international shoot traveling to Africa. But I think it's pretty funny. And I think the song and dance stuff between the two of them is pretty good.

1:03:47Sean Fennessey:So it's one of those things where like you come to it with the lowest of expectations when it's a historical flop. and then you're like, this is the movie that was the biggest problem in Hollywood?

1:03:55Bill Simmons:You know what's interesting about that movie? You know, I've talked about sometimes when people reach that stage of their career where they've been successful and then there's the undercurrent and people are just like, ah, fuck that guy. And they're kind of waiting for the jump. This movie had two people at the same time in fuck that guy kind of range, right? Hoffman's coming off Kramer versus Kramer, kind of a notorious prick behind the scenes. People are waiting for him. And then Warren Beatty had just been super successful over and over again, defied expectations. So the claws were out waiting for this to be a bad movie and it was expensive.

1:04:30Bill Simmons:There's been a lot of good stuff written about it. Yeah. Like Warren Beatty had the biography written about him. There's like a huge chapter about him. Was there an Ishtar book? No, but there's been

1:04:43Sean Fennessey:a lot of different... Was there a podcast? I think there may have been a podcast about the making of Ishtar that came out a few years ago. But the chapter in Star, the Peter Biscayne book about Beatty is really really good the other thing is that it's it basically killed Elaine May's career as a movie director you know she was the one who really took the brunt because three years later Beatty bounces back with a move that we think is relatively modern but he's like he made a comic book movie he made Dick Tracy to kind of reclaim his bankability and recover from this in a super smart way and Dick Tracy is great and really interesting in a lot of ways and then Bullworth

1:05:16Bill Simmons:and then Bullworth which is also The title was another one. Ishtar just sounds like it should be a bomb. Yeah. Because there's been other bombs. Like, I Love Trouble was a bomb, but I Love Trouble isn't as fun to say as Ishtar.

1:05:26Sean Fennessey:But they're both great puns. Like, Mishtar, that was a very easy joke to make about the movie. Just like I Love Trouble is like, nobody loves I Love Trouble, you know?

1:05:34Bill Simmons:I was definitely aware that Ishtar was a bomb when I was a kid. It's pretty funny. This was like the Kramer versus Kramer dad and the guy from heaven can wait on a movie and nobody likes it. And then it did become shorthand for this movie. It's just, this is doomed. Exactly.

1:05:48Sean Fennessey:That's a good pick. Okay. Amanda, you're up. Okay. This is a personal pick. This is meaningful to me. So from Ebert Zero Stars, I will take North, the 1994 Rob Reiner film at which I celebrated my 10th birthday. This was my go to the movies with a group of people. And we selected North, I think because it was for children. And also because the last Rob Reiner movie before that was A Few Good Men, which is one of the great movies of our time. It's not good. I rewatched some of it yesterday, and it's pretty embarrassing and culturally insensitive. I will say that the bad guy, aka the 10-year-old kid, his friend who's setting him up on this journey across the world, makes some good points about old people and parents just not understanding and needing to get out of the way and let kids do their own thing.

1:06:48But, you know, I was there. I was 10. What else can I say? I have a fun, it's a great cast.

1:06:54Sean Fennessey:This is your Congo. Yeah, it's not good, but I had a nice birthday, I think.

1:06:59Bill Simmons:The casting mistake was putting the two of them together from Seinfeld as a couple. Yeah. I just think that that was, people were already like, wait, what's going on? They're going to be married in this? That was bad. And then the movie was bad. Yeah. It wasted a lot of good talent.

1:07:15Sean Fennessey:It's a notorious film for a variety of reasons. I mean, it's Rob Reiner's streak coming to an end.

1:07:21Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:07:21Sean Fennessey:This is Spinal Tap, The Sure Thing, Stand By Me, Princess Bride, When Harry Met Salary, Misery, A Few Good Men, all in a row. Which, you know, obviously we celebrated him after he passed away and just that incredible series of movies. And this is really the movie. He does bounce back with American President right afterwards, which is huge for you. When CR Street can end, what's going to be his north? What do you mean? You keep talking about this. Like, the Sixers didn't get their fucking heads blown off in the playoffs by the New York Knicks. What streak is he on? He traded for Jalen Brown.

1:07:50Bill Simmons:Everybody thinks CR's on a streak.

1:07:52Sean Fennessey:Mandon knows. You see him get shut down with Shawshank? We were like, nope. If this was really CR's year, wouldn't he have gotten that over the line? The reason why people actually like me is because I'm like, all right, no big deal. That's probably true. I like throw the microphone in the air and walk out. That would be amazing. The other thing is that this is the meanest review ever written. In the first paragraph of this review, Roger Ebert writes, North is one of the most unpleasant, contrived, artificial, cloying experiences I've had at the movies. To call it manipulative would be inaccurate.

1:08:20Sean Fennessey:It has an ambition to manipulate, but it fails. Okay. That's the first paragraph. Yeah.

1:08:26Bill Simmons:And it was read at the Rob Reiner roast as a way to roast Rob Reiner. Yeah, one of the comedians went up and just read the Ebert review.

1:08:34Sean Fennessey:It's a pretty impressive deconstruction of why the movie doesn't work. But also a very notable and important flop. Yeah. It is also a little. Do you ever wonder, like, reading all these reviews? He had preferences for sure. But sometimes you're like, what was going on with Roger that day? All the daily critics. I get it. I mean, we've all been there, right? Yes. I know for a fact it would be like, there's no parking. You know, I had to pee, missed a major part of the movie, came back. But also, you know, other things have happened in life. And you have 45 minutes to write this entire thing before.

1:09:08You got to go pick your kid up or whatever. I'm like, Dad, let's go. Yeah, exactly.

1:09:12Sean Fennessey:But sometimes, as you said, with that Canby review, it can have an amazing knockdown effect. Canby just had a bad day, and he thought Heaven's Gate was too long, and then all of a sudden, everybody followed suit. What did my dad do to the Leprechaun franchise, you know? Well, I honestly think it's still going. I think there are like seven or eight installments of it.

1:09:28Bill Simmons:My next pick is for the less than 30. So many good choices for this. I was prepared to make six picks in this category as I continue to misunderstand the draft.

1:09:40Bill Simmons:it came down to a couple of these we've actually done on rewatchables but I'm gonna take Manhunter a movie that weirdly was considered kind of a bomb when it came out and kind of hurt William Peterson's career and then it sent Michael Mayan a little bit of a tailspin I think the studio thought it was gonna do better and now 40 years later it's considered a masterpiece so there you go that's a recurring theme for my list I guess movies that I like more than what their reception was a masterpiece but there's some unbelievable candidates at the end of this I'd like to unless we do a wild card there's some really good candidates for this one there's movies that just didn't make money that you look at the numbers and you're like Jesus where do you stand on directors going into their older films like Michael Mann has been doing and James Cameron's been doing and tweaking it with the physical media I don't like it at all okay it's terrible I agree I'm trying to think if there's a good case for him people like Joe Mazzola was like I'm going to tweak the 2004 finals so Jason looks a little better in it

1:10:44Sean Fennessey:don't you think that's what they're trying to do right now maybe after we Trojan horse Jalen to the Sixers oh god

1:10:51Bill Simmons:no I don't like it

1:10:52Sean Fennessey:I heard you're in on PG now you feel like it's a good idea

1:10:54Bill Simmons:I'm just getting there enjoy that getting there getting there with Paul George here's where I would say I'm okay with tweaking he's the cat right yeah that's the funniest thing I've ever seen

1:11:08good stuff though thank you where's bulgey here's where i'm okay with the tweet when we could do stuff like in the original rocky

1:11:18Bill Simmons:when it's clear they do the wide shots and it's clearly there's 50 people in the thing because they couldn't afford extras right but you're putting in cgi extras yes no why not because Because the CGI crowd extras are the single worst technology thing that's happened to the movies. Whatever we need to do to make it darkening or however.

1:11:36Sean Fennessey:It just looks like. Do a crowd scene or whatever. One of the worst additions of that is in the Ridley Scott film Exodus Gods and Kings. Which I saw very memorably the morning after a Grantland holiday party. And was supposed to meet Rembert Brown there to see it at the Arclight. And Rembert did not show up. Wasn't that Prometheus that we went and saw? That was me and you and Andy saw Prometheus after a Grantland party. And then two years later. Oh, sure. His next film was Exodus, Gods and Kings. And Rem stood you up? He stood me up, yeah. An hour and a half into the movie, he texted me, sorry, dog, I don't think I'm going to make it.

1:12:09Sean Fennessey:Definitely sounds like Rember.

1:12:11Bill Simmons:Yeah, I'm okay with tweaks, as long as they're not actual tweaks. Like changing scenes, cutting scenes. I'm against that. What are your stance here? I don't like it, especially with films that mean a lot to me. I understand Cameron's drive to perfect certain special effects that he has there. But when it gets to Fincher removing dust from people's glasses lenses, I just don't understand. Stallone did a Rocky IV re-edit. As you know, Rocky IV is probably one of the 12 movies I've seen the most times. Yeah. I refuse to watch it. But I think Man took not watching a re-edit. Ryan's out of Manhunter, I believe, is what people are saying.

1:12:52Okay. I'm up. for... So what do I have left here?

1:12:57Sean Fennessey:I think you have sub-25 % Rotten Tomatoes and Ebert zero stars. So you avoided the critical drubbings. Well, I'll tell you what I'm going to do here is in Ebert, I'm going to take one of the harshest reviews I've ever read, which is for Wolf Creek, an early 2000s horror movie from Australia directed by Greg McLean. And I recently showed this to a couple of teenagers who we usually watch horror movies together. Where'd you pick them up? Where'd they come from? Jesus. Cruising the local mall? My friend's daughters who we usually watch like Faces of Death. Like we've watched a bunch of horror movies.

1:13:34And we were like casually. What's going on right now? My friend has like teenage daughters that when we go to Oregon, we hang out with. Oh, gotcha. And then we usually watch horror movies. Like we've watched Blair Witch. We've watched movies. And then I was like, oh yeah, I think like Wolf Creek would be really good. And we watched Wolf Creek. And like when the when Wolf Creek gets dark, they were like, do you like this? Is this what you want? And I'll tell you why. Here's Roger Ebert's review of Wolf Creek. I had a hard time watching Wolf Creek. It is a film with one clear purpose to establish the commercial credentials of its director by showing a skill at depicting the brutal tracking, torture and mutilation of screaming young women.

1:14:19when the killer severs the spine of one of his victims and calls her a head on a stick, I wanted to walk out of the theater and keep on walking. Look, when you take a lot of at-bats, sometimes you're going to strike out, you know? And that's what happened with me the time I showed Teenagers Wolf Creek. But it doesn't mean it's a bad movie. And part of what's going on in this review is Ebert's like, this has 82 % on the tomato meter and everybody who thinks it's good is like a sexual criminal. but you know

1:14:50Sean Fennessey:and you join their link did we all do

1:14:52Bill Simmons:zero star reviews for Ebert at this point I think we did

1:14:55Sean Fennessey:yeah yes

1:14:56Bill Simmons:because I thought it was notable he's done what 76 total yeah he gave zero star reviews to both versions of I Spit on Your Grave yes yes he was just out I don't he didn't like the Saw type of movies he didn't like like the sexual depravity horror movies that's right all that stuff

1:15:14Sean Fennessey:yeah yeah he famously hated slashers he really didn't like very many slashers at all, and especially slashers that were very gore-centric. And obviously, Wolf Creek is very, very gnarly. The theaters are crowded right now with wonderful, thrilling, funny, warm-hearted, dramatic, artistic-inspiring, entertaining movies. If anyone you know says this is the one they want to see, my advice is don't know that person anymore. Wow. Ebert. And that was what those teenagers said to you? Yeah. But they're like, they're like, let's watch this Japanese mental asylum, movie. If Ebert had been a serial

1:15:52Bill Simmons:killer, it would have been the greatest cover-up. Look at all these things I wrote about. Meanwhile, he was cruising the Pacific Northwest. Did you see that there was a house that the alleged Zodiac killer used to stay at is for sale in LA? It's pretty expensive. It's 1.5. Zodiac killer house for sale. Wow, real estate corner. Where is this? I'll grab it. I'll send it to you later. But anyway, the best one was that one near Dodger Stadium on the cliff that Danny Trejo died in heat. Oh, my God. When that was for sale. Other than the Boogie Nights house, that was the one I probably stared at the longest on Red 3.

1:16:29Bill Simmons:Can you believe we don't work out of West Covina at this point? I mean, even I. Yeah. Oh, and I have sub 25 % on Rotten Tomatoes. Don't do me like this, Neo. And it's hard to imagine fall, you know, because it's 96 degrees here in Los Angeles. It's so hot. It's hard to imagine Halloween almost being upon us. But when it is, one of my favorite traditions is to watch Friday the 13th part four, the final chapter. Did it turn out to be the final chapter?

1:17:04Sean Fennessey:No. Why are you trying to make that sound like you're Mr. Rogers? Which category is this? So 25. 25%. Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite traditions is to break out the old coffee mug. Listen, CR, I can do 20 minutes on this right now.

1:17:17Bill Simmons:The hospital? Which is Friday the 13th, part four. Yeah. Corey Feldman. Yes. Lawrence Monison, the kid from Last American Virgin. One of the worst performances of all time. Glover's in this. Crispin Glover's in this one. Yeah. It's awesome. The last 25 minutes of this movie is actually legitimately good, in my opinion. I mean, I think the first 40 minutes of it in the hospital are incredible. it turns out it's a the ending they kill Jason but Corey Feldman as a 10 year old kills Jason he shaves his head to freak out Jason and then at the end he's hugging his sister and he kind of like and he has a crazy look and he becomes and you feel like the torch has passed to Corey Feldman and then in part 5 they completely forgot about it just moved back to Jason wait I thought we cut his head off do you like Final Chapter?

1:18:04Sean Fennessey:yeah I do I think I like 5 a little bit more but 5 like he does appear at the beginning of five. New Blood, yeah. Feldman? Yeah, he's like, so they don't totally erase the ending, but they just like elide what they were intending to do, which is actually the idea that Halloween kind of does, that like, you know, Michael's spirit kind of goes into another character. Yeah, I don't know. These movies, though, the tricky thing about these movies is this is definitely a critical flop, and these movies are getting their asses kicked by critics, but like, this movie did pretty well. It made like$30 million, you know, like, for Hotman, they were bulletproof.

1:18:37Sean Fennessey:And then they just died. Like, by the time you do Jason Takes Manhattan, it's over. Like, you can't make them anymore. I know. They've got a Prestige TV adaptation of it coming soon called Crystal Lake with Linda Cardellini about the Pamela Voorhees prequel story. This was the last one because there has not been— It was rebooted in 09 by your boy Marcus Nispel. And there has not been a Friday the 13th thing for 17 years. And almost everything else has had at least one rebooter adaptation from all the classic horror movies.

1:19:07Bill Simmons:There's an unbelievable clip that's on social media sometimes of when Jason went on Arsenio Hall's show. Did you ever see this? No. He's on for five minutes. And Arsenio just keeps asking him questions. And Jason's just like, just staring at him breathing.

1:19:22Sean Fennessey:Was it Kane Hodder than who played Jason the most? Yeah, it was the actual guy.

1:19:24Bill Simmons:And Arsenio's going with the bit. And every time the audience is laughing, he goes to the next thing. And then he's like, I think you brought a clip. And the guy's like, and they show the clip and it comes back. It's honestly great. Who would be your dream slasher guest to have on BS? Oh, Myers. I would think you know the answer to that one.

1:19:42Sean Fennessey:Yeah, Myers would be great.

1:19:44Bill Simmons:What about for you?

1:19:45Sean Fennessey:Wolf Creek guy?

1:19:47Bill Simmons:Well, when we did Halloween Forum Rewatchables, that was kind of the end of these movies. And they kept making them for the next eight years, but they just diminishing returns. Well, then in the early 2000s, they tried like the Rob Zombie and Marcus and His Spell run. Yeah, because we had that era ended, then Scream rejuvenates everything. Now we have like the TV actors. We get five years out of that, and then it gets dark. I like the... It gets in the CR territory. Marcus Miss Bell Friday the 13th is good. Okay.

1:20:14Sean Fennessey:I saw Scream. Bill, you've got to pick.

1:20:17Bill Simmons:This is my least favorite category was failed franchise launches. Well, you should have taken salt. I had a lot of issues trying to even figure out what one was, but...

1:20:31Bill Simmons:Is Popstar considered? did they think they were going to make a bunch of those or was that a one and done? With Andy St. Berg.

1:20:39Sean Fennessey:No, I don't think the intention was for it to be a franchise. But you want pop stars or you're trying to find another place to put it? If it didn't bomb, it probably would be a franchise.

1:20:48Bill Simmons:How about Josie and the Pussycats?

1:20:49Sean Fennessey:Now that is eligible.

1:20:50Bill Simmons:Sure. I'm going to take that.

1:20:52Sean Fennessey:Interesting.

1:20:53Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:20:54Sean Fennessey:The anti-corporate girl group semi-satire from the filmmaking team behind Can't Hardly Wait. Yeah. Right on, Bill.

1:21:01Bill Simmons:I'm going to take that one.

1:21:01Sean Fennessey:Wow, damn the man.

1:21:05Bill Simmons:I honestly pretty solid movie yeah not bad

1:21:09Sean Fennessey:I like this movie pretty fun Parker Posey and Alan Cumming having a lot of fun in it who is it Tara Reid it's

1:21:18Bill Simmons:it belongs to a specific time of pop culture yeah with Maxim Magazine and Carson Daly and the MTV show and all of those things and it just kind of the Scooby Doo movies like that too just kind of fits in and Roussard awesome great cast great cast this movie's not bad watched it with my daughter a few times back in the day

1:21:39Sean Fennessey:it's got a little cult now it's got oh for sure isn't it getting rebooted again maybe I don't know but it's like

1:21:45Bill Simmons:it's also a cartoon when I was a kid which is how I got to know it

1:21:50Sean Fennessey:okay Amanda you've got one more pick I guess two more if we're going to do a wild card oh right okay well I have sub 25 % on Rotten Tomatoes last and you know I don't know what you guys have been talking about for the last five minutes but that's okay because this is where the tastes vary. Do you mean because of Friday the 13th, part four, the final chapter? Exactly, right. You guys were kind of getting into the lore and I think that's...

1:22:13Bill Simmons:Do you want to talk about Philly sports-wise to kind of tilt the saw back?

1:22:19Again, do you have any feedback on that? You're feeling good about LeBron? Yeah, I'm feeling good about LeBron.

1:22:24Bill Simmons:I've watched some tape. It looks pretty good. Amanda, how are you feeling about the new offensive coordinator and his zone block running scheme? That hasn't made it to me yet, which is really good, But it's only because we did institute it. Zach is very respectful about he won't tell me about the Eagles game or what's going on unless I ask. Right. And otherwise he keeps it to himself. And I haven't asked about the new offensive coordinator yet. Zone blocking is in this year. Okay, what is that? You do the offensive line moves in concert in specific ways. The running back, instead of freelancing, follows a specific direction.

1:22:59Okay. I mean, that seems... Why wouldn't you do that normally? Is it you're doing man-to-man instead? It's really hard to pull off. Yeah. Yeah, hard to pull off. Okay, but... There's more accountability in man-to-man. It's just like, are you better than the guy in front of you? Yeah. Okay. Well, I, in general, think that people should be rethinking their offensive line. So it just kind of feels like if you had that left down, then, you know, no one can do anything else. I don't really understand why there's not more attention paid to it. But anyway...

1:23:25Sean Fennessey:Philly's playoff game's coming soon, too. I know, but that's... I mean, and then they forget how to do everything. It's fine. True story, though. True story, though. On our seven-hour flight back from the East Coast, my two-year-old son stood up on the middle of the seat and yelled at the top of his lungs, Go Birds! Did people applaud him? I think they were just laughing and hoping he would go asleep, but he just yelled, Go Birds! as loud as he possibly can. Because Zach was watching preseason. Yeah. And Cy knew what was up. Okay. Anyway, I have a different interest set than you guys. So my sub 25 list is long, but it does not include any Friday the 13th movies.

1:24:02I'm going to go with my heart, though, on it. Most of these movies are from the heart for me, but I was shocked and appalled to learn that Sister Act 2, Back in the Habit, only has 19 % on Rotten Tomatoes. It only has 19%.

1:24:14Sean Fennessey:She loves the Sister Act franchise. What is going on? Yeah, Lauryn Hill's sterling performance in that film. Are you kidding me? I went back and rewatched the finale yesterday and started crying once again. Joyful, joyful. With Janet Jackson interpolated in? Come on. This is a beautiful movie. The girl Maggie Smith, produced by Scott Rudin. Listen, this is a great film. I really don't think it deserves the 19%. It's just Whoopi Goldberg sharing the joy of music with young kids. What's wrong with that? This movie was a huge hit. It made$125 million. Yeah, because we know what's up. What was going on in culture and society that people were so against it?

1:24:53I don't know. What year did it come out? 1993. This is 93. the oh happy day scene come on when he hits the high note I mean this is absolutely beautiful stuff

1:25:03Bill Simmons:people loved Whoopi Goldberg for years yeah not anymore she was a bankable A plus list movie actress she was for like seven years

1:25:13Sean Fennessey:alright have you seen Sister Act 2 Back in the Habit I don't think so

1:25:16Bill Simmons:actually wow okay I just can I send you the YouTube clip of Lauryn Hill I also have not seen that movie are you serious yeah I'm sorry but you don't know about so at the end I'm older than you guys. But Lauren Hill, it's like 23 when that came out. She wants to be in the music group and then her mom won't let her. No. And then she almost drops out but they go to the competition anyway and then she has a beautiful solo and then it just turns into a whole production. It's so beautiful. I didn't know Lauren Hill was in it so that makes me want to see it now. I actually didn't know Lauren Hill was in it.

1:25:46Sean Fennessey:Really? Yeah. It's right at the, I think it's the same year of the first Fuji's album. Yeah. Which has like vocab on it. Not the one with Fujilah on it. Anyway. less than 30 million domestic the thing is still on the board you guys that took Manhunter the thing made like 3 million dollars the thing was a huge bomb why are you shaking your head like this what year did the thing come out 1982

1:26:10Bill Simmons:yeah you did say 85 85 that's true you did actually did I do that and it's literally written in the I take it back my bad

1:26:22Sean Fennessey:I made that mistake but you know what

1:26:23Bill Simmons:I'm happy giving it to you though Black hat So you have to 2005 right now But I think that was a typo It was basically 85 I took it as 85 on Was the list

1:26:33Sean Fennessey:Oh so when it's written down But you guys do it It's okay But when I do it It's not okay I just assumed it was a mistype It was a typo Sometimes you have typos Yeah Sometimes I have typos They're also This category got changed But not restated Yeah Within the official communications I'm taking the timeline off of it completely. I sometimes notice typos in your docs and I'm like, oh, fastball is going a little bit.

1:27:01Someone's not paying attention to the details like you used to.

1:27:04Sean Fennessey:I can't deny it. I'm definitely losing a step. It's your show, big guy. I'm falling off the cliff. I turned 44. It comes to the best of us. It's like 48. How old were you when you had the HBO show?

1:27:20Bill Simmons:44. No. no I was I think I was 46 16 2016 yeah 46

1:27:27Sean Fennessey:was he

1:27:28Bill Simmons:you were yeah

1:27:30Sean Fennessey:because remember when you came in the office and you were like guys I figured out why I can't see I had the wrong contact lenses that was like the biggest moment

1:27:39Bill Simmons:it wasn't just that I couldn't see I thought I had a brain tumor your head was hurting because my contacts were too strong oh because my eyes got better as I got older and I didn't realize okay so I was wearing like these minus 10 and a half contacts in my eyes I was minus nine and a half. So you're nine and a half now? Yeah. I'm seven and seven and a half, but I'm coming for you. I was going like, I honestly thought I was dying. Wait, you have worse eyesight than she does? I have worse eyesight than all of you. Wow. Yeah, my eyesight's terrible. I didn't know that. Okay, I've got to take a movie.

1:28:08Bill Simmons:I think you can take the thing. I'm fine with it. Sure. I mean, he seems upset. I'm not. I mean, I took cruising. Yeah, it's fine. I'm fine with it. The thing bombed. It bombed. I don't think you should give in on this. Because the way he said the thing is still on the board, guys. Yeah, I didn't appreciate if he had just been like, I'm so excited I get to take the thing. I think I should have just... You should have just led with love. I should have just taken, again, I am superior. I've figured it out. How about this? Just take Gatti.

1:28:39Sean Fennessey:Did I... What did I text you guys when I sent the final text?

1:28:44Bill Simmons:You can have the thing, Sean. It was on the go, so you didn't really amend it.

1:28:49Sean Fennessey:No, I... Appropriately. I took the years off because I meant to take the years off. There's no years in the text that I sent you when we changed the rules. That's why the thing is on my long list. But you know what? You're right. You should take the thing. I lost. I'm losing my fastball. I'm Kodai Senga. We got to move me to the bullpen soon. Might be time to put me out to pasture as far as host, right? Okay. Sierra, you got to do it. He did take them off. Drink some on the house. On the house.

1:29:18Bill Simmons:Take the thing. take the thing Sean just take it it's a good movie to draft I took Cruising which was like two years earlier in the thing you can have it yeah

1:29:26Sean Fennessey:go for it would it be better if I took Jonathan Demme's beloved adaptation of a Toni Morrison novel why not both you can do one take it as your wild card okay that would be my wild card okay alright how do you want to pair those films how do you want to discuss them in tandem in a double feature at the New Beverly yeah

1:29:43Bill Simmons:oh man New Beverly's been on fire lately yeah when are you gonna go see it's been on fire they're really up the game I really love your new life you know because I go to Alford on Beverly Alford's my favorite coffee place so I always drive by New Beverly and every time bangers it's like bangers do you ever go in or are you just like no I just like seeing I like seeing the thing and being like oh bangers and then you go home and watch it on TV yeah exactly it's like do I want to see Pulp Fiction at midnight on a Friday night no I don't

1:30:14Sean Fennessey:we're too old for that I'll take I'll take Beloved instead of the thing or are you going to take both of them? you're just waiting to throw a temper tantrum at a later date about when you gave me the thing

1:30:26Bill Simmons:this opens up you can get sorcerer now based on the dates I'll take Empire Strikes Back because we can just like adjust some numbers no no no

1:30:38Sean Fennessey:if you'd like to try to do that you can try I'm just kidding you should take the thing because it's a good John Carpenter is somebody who oh you went back into podcasting you just started podcasting again you were like well actually John Carpenter you know went back to information delivery what's up with your screensaver here it's got a little bit of animation to it I didn't know that that was possible I don't know I think this is just how it came and I was like that's pretty simple I once again have some questions about your laptop choices but anyway which is too large you know what else I wanted to do in sub 30 I don't know if this didn't necessarily fully qualify us because it didn't cost that much money but I really wanted to do dirty work the Norm MacDonald comedy I had that on my list

1:31:13Bill Simmons:it was between 8mm and dirty work yeah dirty work would have been good for the sub-25.

1:31:17Sean Fennessey:Dirty Work's so funny. It's the last Farley movie, right? Yeah. Yeah. Norm is so funny in Dirty Work. And Artie. Damn. What happened to Artie? Where's Artie at these days? Artie's still alive. Chris Farley's not. No, he's not. What did you pick? He's taking Beloved. I'll take the thing in Beloved. Great. Okay. Beloved is a wild card. It's your wild card. Amanda, you get a wild card. Oh, I get a wild card now? Yeah. So it can be something that was eligible. Anything you want. Anything you want that has flop to it. but so would something that was a failed franchise launch be something that's floppy you could now pick anything you want well I just just take a flop on well I was curious this is not my pick this is the maddest he's ever been I know the maddest he's ever been don't say in the newspaper that I'm mad would Fincher's Girl with the Dragon Tattoo have been eligible in failed franchise launch yes oh yes yes it would have okay I didn't think of that so I'll take Fincher's Girl with a Dragon Tattoo.

1:32:14I don't like that movie. You don't? I mean, it's really creepy. It's too harsh. I gotta give another chance. It's good. It's so good.

1:32:21Bill Simmons:It's really unsettled. Yes, but that's the point. I didn't like being unsettled. Okay. All right.

1:32:26Sean Fennessey:I mean, it's a Fincher movie. What do you expect? There we go. That's a great pick. Thank you. Thanks so much. I totally forgot about that. It's also incredible that I picked that after Salt. But I do believe in the commercial possibility of Salt 2. And I'm ready. To take meetings with anyone who wants them. Okay, BS, you got...

1:32:47Bill Simmons:Yeah, I want to take something that's just super floppy here. I can't wait to read my... I can't believe nobody took Geely, by the way. I thought about it because of, obviously... You picked it before. I did in, I guess, the 2003 draft because... And that was still, we did it on Zoom, and I got screwed out a couple things, and I went for it. But I did rewatch some of it yesterday, and it just made me feel bad. That actually made me feel like I was wasting my time and so was everyone else. I feel like I took movies that I actually like and are good and I don't have a true flop. That's just what the fuck happened.

1:33:26Bill Simmons:I can't believe this movie got made. This is why I took Ishtar. I'm going to take The Island of Dr. Moreau. Excellent. Really good. A movie that I've told this story many times, but I had an illegal cable box in Boston for about four years where they showed all the pay-per-views and this just started to come on the pay-per-views and was one of the most inexplicable things I'd ever seen in my life. And Brando is in it. And just, you can hear him counting the cash in his head as he's filming his scenes. Val Comer doesn't want to be there. That guy, David Thewlis, what's his name? Is that his name?

1:34:02Bill Simmons:David Thewlis. People thought he might be having a moment. Well, that moment ended. He wanted to have some more moments, but more in more understated work. character. Dr. Moreau is, is he's mating humans and animals. Yeah. Yeah. And now. But dragon tattoo is too much for you. These human animals are now starting to realize that they're not being treated correctly. So you have like a guy who's like, he's half cheetah, half human, half ape, half human. And they kind of turn on, they have like a revolution. It's, it's just one of the most incredible bad movies that's ever been made. I love it. I've probably seen it 10 times.

1:34:40Sean Fennessey:Have you seen Lost Soul, the doomed journey of Richard Stanley as the Island of Dr. Moreau, the documentary about the making of this through the prism of the guy who was the director at the beginning of the movie?

1:34:50Bill Simmons:Oh, who got fired?

1:34:51Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I have not. It's so, you will love it. It is amazing Hollywood history. And it's mostly told through his experience, but after he gets fired, he, John Frankenheimer gets hired to finish making the movie and he sneaks back onto the set and he dresses up as one of the animal characters because he still knows all the people in the crew. And so he's, the director, Richard Stanley, is in the movie as one of the characters uprising against Dr. Moreau in this kind of like our imitating life meta moment that is so fantastic. But the whole documentary is super interesting. Apparently Val Kimmer was not a pleasant person to work with on this one.

1:35:27Bill Simmons:It's an amazing movie. It came out, I think, 30 years ago probably. It's never on. I don't even, maybe all copies have been destroyed. Not in my home. I don't know. You have the, what do you have, the Blu-ray? Of course I have the Blu-ray,

1:35:39Sean Fennessey:yeah, for the Richard Stanley stack.

1:35:40Bill Simmons:Oh, man.

1:35:41Sean Fennessey:We got Dust Devil, we got hardware.

1:35:43Bill Simmons:Really interesting idea for our movie. It's a remake. It's a remake, yeah. And I think the original movie did really well. And then when I had my football call on McGrantland, I did mailbag cross with NFL picks and called it the Island of Dr. Simba. That's right. And CR was like, Bill's lost his fucking mind. What's happening? Yeah, it was that and the Birdmester and I was just like, where the fuck are we? we're going down with the ship actually isn't it

1:36:06Sean Fennessey:an H.G. Wells story H.G. Wells novel Dr. Merle I think so or Jules Verne I don't know I think it's Wells Chris you have the last pick you can take Sorcerer right here a lot on the board still you know you could go with Oliver Stone's Alexander you could go with the Wachowski Speed Racer big one I'm going to go with a film that I've seen more than those movies sadly I've seen it twice a week for about nine years there in the 2010s and it's Pete Berg's Battleship. Oh! I had it on my list. It's two Titanic Taylor Kitsch bombs in this time period. John Carter and Battleship. Battleship made$300 million.

1:36:49It just made 240 of them elsewhere. And this movie's pretty good. Rihanna's in it. She has like five lines. She just yells all of them. Pond Battleship.

1:37:04yeah

1:37:06Bill Simmons:appreciate that we're back we're back yeah when you combine it with John Carter and this whole moment that Taylor Kitsch was supposedly having yeah I still like Taylor Kitsch I do too but they just it's a classic just on the wrong sports teams for a couple years and he missed his moment yeah this movie is like hella entertaining though and it's like obvious that they were like you know what would be cool is to hang out in Hawaii for a year yeah and that's what they did it's also a movie that they were trying obviously knew Pete Berg a little bit was they were trying to explain what the movie was it's like the board game Battleship but it's like a movie on that and you're going okay yeah sure and Liam Neeson is in the beginning of this movie I was going to say

1:37:44Sean Fennessey:who was the likely overpaid older actor to give this movie some credibility so it's Liam Neeson but you know you've also got Jesse Plymouth coming off that Friday Night Lights money connection with Pete Berg you've got Alexander Skarsgård you've got Rami Malek is in this movie Alexander Skarsgård is playing Taylor Kitsch's older brother yeah I need to revisit this they play touch football together good policy oh wow I'm gonna be watching this then no soccer they play soccer together yes and they play soccer you have my attention I saw this in theaters yeah but I don't remember that there was a lot of they aired this before like like 195 TNT basketball games right you'd be catching the end of Battleship there was a lot of stuff

1:38:25Bill Simmons:in the less than 30 million that I was looking at including shortcuts which kind of bombed. But I don't feel like that's a spirit of the flop. I feel like he's not a flop. That's like a Shawshank thing. In the same way that you cut out my legs with Shawshank, would you have done it for Rounders? No, because I don't... I mean, how big were the expectations for Rounders? I feel like if you made as much money as they spent on the movie, I don't think it can be considered a money flop. I think... Probably broke even, right? Sadly, it sounds like 28 years later, The Bone Temple. which only made 25 domestically

1:39:00Sean Fennessey:yeah that did bomb so I had a couple

1:39:02Bill Simmons:King of Comedy nobody took but I think that could have been on this because that was considered damaging to everybody to Jillian on her 37th birthday a movie Amanda and I like yeah yes goodnancy and tuck a movie it's really a crazy movie Basketball really felt like it might set the boys back but it didn't and South Park is still on yep Eddie and the Cruisers we've done on rewatchables and then And Blood In Blood Out was one that didn't do well, but then became a cult movie after, but it didn't do well when it came out. I think it made less than 10 million bucks. I want to just shout out a couple of Sub 25s, Event Horizon, Four Christmases.

1:39:42This is Rotten Tomatoes. You continue to stand Four Christmases. Another 48 hours. Passenger 57. These are not 25 % of the worst movies.

1:39:50Sean Fennessey:Passenger 57 was sub 25 % on Rotten Tomatoes. There's a couple. Gone in 60 Seconds was under 25. The sweetest thing is not a 25 % movie. Perfect. Well, there's one historic one that I'm shocked you didn't take.

1:40:02Bill Simmons:Which one? Cocktail.

1:40:04Sean Fennessey:Which I think has like 17%.

1:40:06Bill Simmons:I know, but yeah, I guess that could have fit the Rotten Tomatoes thing. But I just don't think that movie's a flop. It made like$200 million. And isn't just go with it one of the Simmons families? Yeah, it's 20%. I know, but people, it just proves people are stupid. Okay. Because that movie's elite. Okay, I just, you know, I know it matters to you. Grown Ups 2 is under 25 too. actually most of the Sandler movies are on there Rumor Has It was on my list as well along with Coyote Ugly how dare you and Sleeping with the Enemy is also

1:40:36Sean Fennessey:it's not as good as you remember well but it is it's a little silly sure but it's filmed you know in beautiful coastal locations be careful yeah I know you're a fan Laura Raj also didn't like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead I thought that was really odd and Walker the Alex Cox movie yeah And then he also didn't like Ken Russell's Devils. Which will be back in the news in about one month

1:41:01Bill Simmons:when it's re-released. Raj, the funniest ones for Zero Stars was Dice Rules, the injured Dice Clay concert movie. Needs to say, Raj, not a fan. One of your faves

1:41:12Sean Fennessey:is on his list. Which one? 10 to Midnight. 10 to Midnight. I almost took it. Charles Bronson. Yeah, that's just

1:41:17Bill Simmons:a bad opinion. But then, Jaws the Revenge, which some people like. I like it. It's more Van Peebles. Some people are okay with that one. Death Wish 2.

1:41:26Sean Fennessey:Isn't that the one specifically where Jaws is like, I'm coming back for Scheider's family? Yes.

1:41:31Bill Simmons:Yes. Deuce Bigelow European Gigolo was on Raj's list. Sure.

1:41:35Sean Fennessey:But that's European Gigolo, not male Gigolo.

1:41:38Bill Simmons:The funniest one out of all of these was Last Rites with Tom Barringer and Daphne Zuniga. Raj is like, this movie fucking sucks. He just like murders it. It's a priest who falls, I think he falls in love with Daphne Zuniga and wasn't supposed to. Yeah. And Raj was like, just completely horrified by it.

1:41:57Sean Fennessey:It's like you showing those teenagers Wolverine. They changed their lives forever. They can never go back to God. No. Did anyone take a Costner? Anything? No. I mean, Horizon Part 1 on failed franchise launches could have been on that. And I can't believe that no one took it. And I like Horizon Part 1. Yeah, I know.

1:42:16Bill Simmons:Did he go in there? You saw it? My dad was a huge fan. Yeah. It's pretty good. I told him Horizon Part 2 it probably isn't happening and he was like, are you serious? It's done. It exists. It's screened at the Santa Barbara International Film Festival. I'm kind of surprised that Vox Nation didn't buy it or something.

1:42:31Sean Fennessey:It's really odd. Or some Angel Studios people didn't buy it. I would go to bat for Waterworld, but not The Postman. The Postman, I think, sucks. Waterworld is pretty entertaining. Yeah, Waterworld's good. Waterworld sucks. There's a bunch of star bombs. Tough hair situation, you know, once you add the water in. That was the biggest mistake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't even remember who's the woman oh it's Jean Triplehorn oh yeah okay a couple of star bombs that I think are interesting to talk about quickly Bonfire of the Vanities sure which I don't think we can do this pod without mentioning that movie which had a had a three way effect on Willis Hanks and Melanie Griffith all over the top books and podcasts written about that written about that Hudson Hawk came back again for Bruce Willis which is a you know like it was his idea that movie he pushed to get that movie made and that totally bricked.

1:43:23Sean Fennessey:Speaking of Bruce Willis, The Scarlet Letter, which is like an all-time L for Demi Moore. I think that's kind of the end of Demi Moore as like a real power broker in Hollywood.

1:43:31Bill Simmons:I don't even remember that movie and what happens in it.

1:43:34Sean Fennessey:Well, it's based on the novel The Scarlet Letter. No, I know,

1:43:36Bill Simmons:but I don't even remember why she's in it or what they thought they were doing. Who's Gary Oldman? It's Gary Oldman. Gary Oldman. Does she get like naked in it? Is it like a sex movie?

1:43:46Sean Fennessey:Sorry about this. I mean, Is it like an erotic? It is, yeah. Is it an erotic movie? Well, it's about her losing her virginity and then being branded. I don't mean to phrase it that way. Does Hester Prynne get boned in The Scarlet Letter? I mean, yeah. She got what the A's about. Guys, right? Okay.

1:44:03Bill Simmons:Yeah, people were just done with her at that point. I think the juror started it and then Scarlet Letter finished it.

1:44:09Sean Fennessey:You know what's a tough one that I always want to reclaim but I never can is K-19 The Widowmaker. It's pretty good. Is it? Yeah, it is. Isn't Harvey Keitel in that?

1:44:18Bill Simmons:No, that one's bad. I don't remember. Harrison Ford. Well, I know Harrison Ford. The movie's bad. That movie's pretty... Oh, wait. I'm thinking of U571. My bad. That one's pretty good. J-19's not that good. Where did you stand on the beach in this conversation? The DiCaprio one?

1:44:31Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I'm pro. I just rewatched it last year, but it was the first time I rewatched it since it came out because I did not like it when it came out.

1:44:38Bill Simmons:It did make money, but was considered bad for Leo. But he was fine. He was fine. I think it was just like as a follow-up to Titanic. People were like, wow, what is he doing? Is this going to work out? But I don't feel like it counts as a real flop, though. It did bomb, but it's an on-paper amazing movie, right?

1:44:56Sean Fennessey:Based on Garland's novel. And he wrote the screenplay, and Danny Boyle directed it. And they didn't put Ewan McGregor in, which caused like a schism for decades between McGregor and Boyle. Is that true? I think so.

1:45:06Bill Simmons:I thought a good example of this was Best Defense, which Eddie Murphy is in, but he's not a star. And it's Dudley Moore and I think Chevy Chase. I've not seen that. Saw in the theater. It was during, he has 48 hours trading places, Beverly Cop, Beverly's Cop all in a row. But Best Defense is kind of in there. And he's in it for like 25 minutes doing Eddie Murphy things, but it's bad. And now kind of nobody pretends that when they list all the Eddie Murphy movies, it's just not mentioned. It's like it never happened. But it happened. Have you seen that? I've never seen Best Defense. It's a comedy arms dealer movie.

1:45:37Bill Simmons:Oh. It's bad. I don't even, I think even Tubi's like, eh. I had a couple of franchise relaunches that we didn't do mostly because they're franchise relaunches Jack Ryan Shadow Recruit we were going to try and do Chris Pine there yeah and solo a Star Wars saga yeah with your boy they probably would have made like three of those had those Alden and it worked out for Alden

1:45:59Sean Fennessey:he's doing well I have many failed franchise launches but I'll mention just a couple most of which are not good The Mummy Tom Cruise was meant to relaunch the dark universe and didn't work out Alita Battle Angel Will Smith's Bright The Dark Tower Jonah Hex The Last Airbender The Notorious Prince of Persia Of course

1:46:19Bill Simmons:47 Ronin has to be in this too

1:46:21Sean Fennessey:Yeah the Keanu movie

1:46:22Bill Simmons:Yeah they spent like Over 150 million on that Jumper Yeah

1:46:27Sean Fennessey:Doug Liman movie with Hayden Hayden Christensen I gotta say I kind of like Jumper Good premise Yeah It wasn't bad A very famous one is Sahara The Matthew McConaughey movie Because there's so many Clive Cusler novels Yes

1:46:41Bill Simmons:did you know that John Carter lost the most money of all the movies that have lost money I didn't know that until we did this is this the highest number it's the first one that comes up when you google for adjusted inflation yeah I think it's the biggest loser spent the most money what happens to John Carter he goes to Mars he goes to Mars and then he meets Woola who was like the animated little creature you might be making this up right now no it's true Woola was a real thing and they spent I assume they spent a lot of money animating Mars and Woola. You want to see a picture of Woola?

1:47:14Sean Fennessey:This is a historic moment on the podcast. That's Woola. Oh my God. Jesus. I mean, I think that's it. Any other honorable mentions you want to mention?

1:47:27Bill Simmons:I mean, Costner with the Postman, people go to Waterworld as the Costner flop example, but Postman, and then I don't think revenge is considered a win for him either, but it made money. It was earlier in his career. Yeah, it made money though.

1:47:39Sean Fennessey:Kind of like it.

1:47:40Bill Simmons:Yeah, I kind of like it. I love the Tommy Scott movie.

1:47:43Sean Fennessey:Okay.

1:47:44Bill Simmons:Rock of Ages is probably the other one we didn't mention. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that one. Cruz. Bob Maruski. Just couldn't get... I couldn't even draft that. Cruz had that in Valkyrie. He was really struggling. And then he made the Night and Day movie with Cameron Diaz. That one didn't make... I do love Valkyrie. Valkyrie's not bad. Valkyrie's good. Okay. It's about guys who made a stand, you know?

1:48:04Sean Fennessey:It's true. But they didn't succeed. No. Okay. So for our draft, in less than 30 million domestic wide release, no official year dates attached. I selected The Thing from John Carpenter. In Starbomb, I took Ishtar. In Lost More Than 100 Million, I took The Last Duel. In Ebert Zero Stars, I took Freddy Got Fingered. In Sub 25 on Rotten Tomatoes, I took Congo. In Failed Franchise Launch, I took The Man from UNCLE. And in Wildcard, I took Jonathan Demme's Beloved. in less than 30 million domestic I took the lost city of z and star bomb how do you know in lost more than 100 million west side story by steven spielberg in ebert zero stars north in sub 25 % on rotten tomatoes sister act two back in the habit which chris and bill have never seen failed franchise launch salt 2010 and then in wild card also a failed franchise launch David Fincher's the girl with the dragon tattoo.

1:49:03Bill Simmons:I think Amanda's gonna win. I have Manhunter, Cruising, Ali, I should've done all one word flops, Police Academy, 8mm, Island of Dr. Murrow as a wild card, Josie and the Pussycats as failed franchise launch. That's a pretty strong one. I took Black Hat in 30 Million Domestic. I took The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford for Brad Pitt's Starbomb. Lost more than$100 million. I took Furiosa, a Mad Max saga. Ebert zero stars for my sins. I took Wolf Creek, some 25 % on Rotten Tomatoes. I took Friday the 13th, the final chapter. Failed franchise launch. I took Master and Commander, the far side of the world.

1:49:50And for my wild card, I put in Battleship. Yeah.

1:49:54Bill Simmons:Pretty good draft. I don't even know how people would judge it.

1:49:57Sean Fennessey:Well, we're going to find out soon. Okay.

1:49:59Bill Simmons:I just thought that Shawshank wasn't a flop. I'm glad we all held the fort.

1:50:03Sean Fennessey:Okay. Yeah, you guys did a great job. Yeah. Are you okay? Is this going to be okay? Will you keep drafting with us? No, I'm out. I'm out. You're done? Yeah, okay. How did you feel? How did you feel? Rebel draft podcast feed.

1:50:14Bill Simmons:I wish it had been easier. I prepared for six picks for each category. I know. Still ready to go and do more. Because it's six rounds in a normal draft? What is this? I got a lot going on. I've got a football podcast this week. I'm rooting for you. I'll find myself for the dogs. Yeah, just got a lot going on.

1:50:29Sean Fennessey:Well, thank you, Bill. Thanks for joining us. Pleasure to be here. Always a pleasure to have you. Thanks to Jack Sanders, who is on vacation. Thanks to Jamie and Sarah for filling in. Shout out, you guys. Thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh for production support. Welcome back, Amanda. Welcome back, Amanda. Thank you so much. Yes. And you'll never take an episode off again, right? You'll be on every single episode going forward. Thanks for that. We will be back later this week to discuss the Dog Stars. We're also going to rank all 30 Ridley Scott movies. Bill, what's your favorite Ridley Scott movie?

1:51:00Bill Simmons:I mean gladiator is the easy choice someone to watch over me is probably the one I saw the most not alien alien's really good can you make a choice alien

1:51:17Sean Fennessey:thanks for listening we'll see you later this week

1:51:28Thank you.