‘The Odyssey’ Is Massive and Magnificent

21:57Like maybe that works.

21:59Sean Fennessey:That's an interesting, really interesting point that we probably should circle back to when we get to the end of the year which is sort of like Neon on A24 making this bid to be mid-majors. And as they're making that bid, do they need festivals as much as they used to to create awareness for their movies when they're casting Zendaya in their movies? Suddenly, it's a different mentality. I mean, they'll obviously always have these kind of broad base of different types of films at different budgets. But once those, then you're like, then it's just like Sony Pictures Classics and a couple of other smaller American distributors.

22:32Sean Fennessey:and then we're much more reliant on the international fair. But we'll talk about it more as the year goes on. Let's have a strong pivot. It's time. Christopher Nolan's 13th movie, The Odyssey. I'm going to give the listeners at home a brief recap of the film The Odyssey, which is based on Homer's The Odyssey. Here we go. Should we just say right now? Spoilers. Spoilers. Spoilers. If you don't want The Odyssey, a 3 ,000-year-old poem, and or Christopher Nolan's Odyssey spoiled for you, turn this off right now. That's right. The Odyssey follows Odysseus, the legendary Greek king of Ithaca, on his long and perilous journey home following the Trojan War, chronicling his encounters with mythical beings such as the Cyclops, Sirens, and the nymph Calypso while attempting to reunite with his wife, Penelope.

23:21Sean Fennessey:So, before we discuss our feelings about the film, I thought it'd be useful to talk about Nolan's history with this story. So many years ago, 2004, Nolan was attached to direct the film Troy. This is fairly early on in his movie career. He'd only made two movies with Hollywood at this point. He had not yet made a Batman film. And that movie is the last movie that I can think of that tries to do what this movie tries to do. There have been other Swords and Sandals epics. There have been other big stage stories. He's, you know, Zack Snyder's 300 springs to mind as an example of a movie like this.

23:57Sean Fennessey:But that film, which Nolan felt at the time he was maybe not quite ready to take on, eventually became a Wolfgang Peterson project. And Wolfgang Peterson, interestingly, moved off of the Batman versus Superman movie that he was developing. And Christopher Nolan moved in to direct Batman Begins. Yeah. Which is a film, I think that's a decision. This is a turning point in Hollywood history that I think radically alters where we are right now. Now, Troy was a pretty big hit. And a TNT classic. It certainly is. I think it's a pretty well-liked movie. It's not bad. Okay. I mean, Eric Bana is the star, so.

24:31Sean Fennessey:He is the star, but it has a lot of nice meaty roles for folks like Brian Cox and Sean Bean and Brendan Gleeson and a lot of actors who I like seeing in movies like that. And Brad Pitt. Memorably Brad Pitt, Orlando Bloom, Diane Kruger. And so this is a big twist of fate. that, and it also indicates that Nolan, we know Nolan always wanted to make a movie like this. And so I find the timing of this movie very interesting because he's coming off of perhaps the most unbelievable success of his career in Oppenheimer. Not because of what the movie is per se, but because of how successful it was insofar as it made$1 billion and it won virtually every Academy Award that it was up for.

25:14And cemented his status as the leader. I mean, he is the president of the DGA currently, but he is also just the statesman of this generation of filmmakers.

25:28Sean Fennessey:And I think he's pretty clearly recognized now as the director of this century, that he is the person who has defined what movie going is with his scale and execution. The other thing about this is that this movie has never been made before. And it's so interesting to me that we've been talking all year about how it's like out with the old and in with the new. And there's nothing older than The Odyssey, but there's no movie The Odyssey. There are parts of the Odyssey that have been told in movies, or there have been a lot of influences. And if you look at Harryhausen movies, you can see some of the monsters and figures.

26:03Sean Fennessey:Even 2024's The Return is sort of like the back half of the Odyssey. But the Odyssey in full, there's no movie. And Nolan describes it as an odd gap in movie history. So what an amazing opportunity to leverage this 25-year history of him thinking about doing a Big Swords and Sandals movie. And he steps up to the plate to do this film. It's a$250 million production. I ask you now, what did you think of The Odyssey? Well, you set me up beautifully with that Christopher Nolan context, because I do think that this is a perfect Christopher Nolan movie. And the perfect Christopher Nolan movie. Now, does that mean that it is perfect?

26:41No. And does it mean that it's the best Christopher Nolan movie? I don't know. I'm not sure yet. I'm not sure yet either. We're going to talk about that on Monday. I think it, you know, pays well to sit with these things. Also, you know, that's what we do on this podcast is reassess over and over. But I felt sort of stupid sitting there watching it when I realized that Christopher Nolan has just been making The Odyssey for 20 years. And the first shot of Inception is Leonardo DiCaprio on a beach, washed up on a beach, looking longingly at the dream of his children. And then a godlike figure comes in and intervenes with him.

27:17I mean, this is quite textually a reference to the Odyssey, but in everything that he's doing, you know, thematically, a man, a hero, a burdened genius trying to get back to his family with sort of opaque wife characters throughout the land. And the blueprint is there and has been there the whole time. I do also think that this movie is an amazing superhero movie. And I mean that as a compliment. I had the experience of watching this movie and seeing things that I had only read about, done spectacularly and made real. And I sort of understand what it means then to people who have always read comic books to see Superman, or in Nolan's case, Batman, finally see their dreams realized.

28:12And dreams realized so well. So it really does work as a summation of Nolan's career. And, you know, I feel like we've had a lot of projects in the last few years where directors have been waiting forever and ever to make this movie. Or, you know, it's their dream project. And it doesn't always live up to the expectations or to their own dreams. and on an execution level, I think he nails this out of the park. Ambition, scale, star power, you know, everything below the line. He has like a crew of close collaborators at this point. It looks beautiful. I thought it was thrilling.

28:50Sean Fennessey:I agree. It's a pretty astounding work of art and it works in both ways. I think one of the things that distinguishes him from almost any other filmmaker and really no matter how I feel about him personally over the years in each individual movie is his movies operate very interestingly as both these kind of smooth-brained rollercoaster rides and also these really deep, passionate, sincere, thematic adventures. And there's no deeper, more sincere thematic adventure than The Odyssey. And so it's fitting. I couldn't find much evidence of him saying, I want to make The Odyssey over the years. You know, a lot of those directors that you're talking about would say, well, it's been my life's journey to get to this point to make this kind of film.

29:32Sean Fennessey:And he's just kind of always been making this kind of film, as you very smartly point out. But what he is able to build into the movie does feel like something that could only happen for a filmmaker with 30 years of filmmaking under their belt. And if you read about the production of the film, you can see that the only person who seems to have the utmost confidence that it's all going to go according to plan is Christopher Nolan. The actor certainly are like, what is this? And it's really, it's a fun movie to read about, not nearly as much as it is to watch, but it's such an awe-inspiring production.

30:04Sean Fennessey:And we're in a time when most people who would try to make a movie like this would do so many things with visual effects and computer-generated imagery. And he goes so far out of his way to avoid that wherever he can. And still, without sacrificing the grandeur that is necessary to tell this story. And so, there are a dozen moments in the movie where I was like, this is breathtaking you know this is just amazing that he makes me feel this way and exciting and you know you can see touches or inspiration from like other filmmakers it really does feel omnivorous in this wonderful way in a synthesis of everything that we've seen in the movies both Nolan's and others um and it it just is also a place it is so it is a blockbuster like you are going, you know, it's based on an epic poem.

30:58And I think there's been so much hand-wringing about the accessibility of this from a text perspective, or we all remember being bored out of our minds in high school reading this. Do they even teach it anymore, people in the booth? They do. Yeah. Okay. But that's good to hear. I'm glad for your generation.

31:15Sean Fennessey:I read it in full in high school. In fact, going back to it, I remember reading, I can feel the memory come back of the story. I'm excited to talk about the different translations of it. And I guess all of that's true, but they're just also, there are monsters, there are sex scenes, there is a lot of horror in this in a really accomplished way. The score bangs. It is very funny every time another great character actor shows up and you're like, oh, it's this person. It really, spectacle is not a bad word, even though it's sometimes used in a dismissive way. This is hefty spectacle. This is spectacle with weight.

31:55Sean Fennessey:One thing I felt watching the movie for the first time was that because of what you're describing, this feeling that many people who will sit down to watch the movie will know the beats. And so I do think that there is a moment in the second act where it feels like he is kind of moving through the story fairly quickly. And we're hitting moments, memorable moments. We're hitting Scylla and Charybdis. We're hitting Tiresias' prophecy. We're hitting the sirens. Sure. And it's coming at this kind of breakneck pace in a way where it felt a little bit like he was checking boxes to me. Now, it's hard to make a movie of this scope, a story of this scope in under three hours and he accomplishes that.

32:33Sean Fennessey:But the movie pays off that episodic nature so profoundly in the final 40 minutes or so of the movie. And I have been very critical of Nolan's ability to end movies at times. And you were very critical of Oppenheimer's ending. Yes. And this is the exact opposite to me. I think this is the most satisfying ending of a movie that he's made. I completely agree. You know, I would like to talk about the final three lines of the movie, you know? And in a way, they're more perfect because Christopher Nolan stays Christopher Nolan and completely lands the plane. I found the ending so moving and so revelatory.

33:13And, you know, then he does something else. And I was like, well, that's great. You know, it's good to know that we're still with the same guy who can't quite help himself from, you know, jabbing it in your eye a little bit more what he wants to say, which may be a movie of this scale and size, both in terms of its box office ambitions and its text requires. I felt the shortcuts too. You know, I felt the, oh, okay. We did Calypso like very, very quickly, but it was interesting to then go back and read the text. And I did the Emily Wilson translation, which I can't say enough good things about.

33:49And that was another revelation just of reading a familiar story in a different way through a different person's eyes and interpretation. but I was surprised by how brief they are in the poem itself and that there is something about what the what the poem sees as the most important of the stories you know the pacing of the poem that like actually is pretty accurately reflected in parts of the film which you didn't need to do You know, I firmly believe that the more liberties an adaptation takes, the better the adaptation is.

34:30Sean Fennessey:I think there's an important point to be made about that, too, because we'll talk about some of the differences from the texts that we've looked at and whether or not we've lost something by changing certain things in the movie, which I think is essential to do to make it work as a movie. But, you know, this is also a story that was told in the oral tradition. And the way that the story became formed through the oral tradition is that parts of the story that were not really working with crowds around fires or in towns would be excised. And so this is not the whole scale truthful representation of a man named Odysseus who went on a journey.

35:03Sean Fennessey:It's a story that was sort of crowdsourced and eventually was kind of chiseled down and put down on paper. but it's not this irrefutable, you know, locked piece of material. It is actually meant to be interpreted and to be re-understood over time. And I really, really appreciate what he did with it. And the thing that he did with it, to me, has less to do with what he changed or didn't change in the script, but how he tells the story. And all of Christopher Nolan's films are about time and the loss of time and trying to desperately accomplish something before time runs out. I just sat down to look at following again last night and even following his very first movie, which is only 69 minutes, is about that feeling.

35:46Sean Fennessey:But this movie is in this neat little package with Tenet and Oppenheimer and Dunkirk to some extent. But these three films all have the same editor, Jennifer Lane. And the two of them together have, I would say, evolved his filmmaking style. where this film has such an intense flash cutting style and the camera very rarely holds on an image for more than 15 seconds at a time. And that sounds like it would be a chaotic Michael Bay commercial nightmare. But in fact, he uses it so skillfully to show us images and then show us that same image an hour later and then show us that image an hour later as we get more and more context, more and more clarity of the story, more and more depth from the characters that it does feel like, I think, a pretty meaningful evolution in filmmaking style.

36:38Sean Fennessey:And I think one of the reasons why some previous films in the 2010s, late 2000s with him was I could feel him grasping for the style, but maybe not totally having control over it. And I don't know if it is the work with Jen Lame that has gotten him to this place. And this story is so big, and he has these recurring motifs and images throughout that it felt like the summation of that movement that he was going towards too. The same thing with like, you know how in Oppenheimer, we kind of blow through the first 30 years of his life in 18 minutes. And it's by using that style, using sound, score, and the way that the images are cut.

37:14Sean Fennessey:And this movie does it on an even grander scale. Like one minute we're in the palace in Ithaca. Right. And then the next second we're in a different timeline on a beach on another land with a man roaming by himself. and yet we know that like these two characters are twins that telemachus and odysseus is twinned and we've i joke about this kind of thing but it is total cinema like it is the thing that you're asking for where you're like bring all the tools of the trade together to make you feel something and understand it at the same time i mean it is also again why this is kind of the perfect nolan project even if he wasn't dreaming and talking about his aspirations to make it his and his entire career.

37:54But, you know, this is a this is a poem that, to your point, has multiple authors or at least multiple instances of authorship and is told and created over time. So that relies on different perspectives. It's also a story told in in people telling other stories. And so there's memory, there's perspective. There is a lot to communicate that this particular style and the cross-cutting can do in terms of, you know, memory as image and things, you know, how memory recurs and how you group things together in your head. And also that this story, you know, does need to go from Ithaca to, you know, to Circe, to people at the same place trying to make their way to each other.

38:42But there are, you know, multiple timelines to put it in the crassest way possible.

38:46Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's a twin narrative in the movie. It has multiple perspectives, but it's primarily through the eyes of Odysseus at various stages of his life and career as effectively a general in Agamemnon's army. And so we see moments from the Trojan War and the Trojan horse. And then there is these series of incidents in which he is trying to return home from the war. And so we see all of those through his eyes, most of which come during a retelling while he is on an island for seven years with Calypso, which is a shift from the original text, but helpfully allows us to kind of experience those moments in Odysseus' story.

39:29Sean Fennessey:And then there's also the Telemachus component of the story where Penelope and Telemachus are waiting 20 years for their father and husband to arrive back at Ithaca. And Telemachus, after a certain while, realizing that the suitors that have come for Penelope to rule Ithaca alongside her are eventually going to get pretty impatient and take action. And so he goes out and goes to find his father. And in going to find his father, that opens up these new portals for other people to tell him stories about his father. Right. This is a very ornate, complicated way of telling this story. Yeah. And as I started to kind of go through my mind of like what incident happened in what order of the movie, I was kind of marveling at the screenplay.

40:13Sean Fennessey:I think it's a pretty phenomenal adaptation. because even though we know like, okay, there's a scene with the Cyclops, like that scene probably isn't as hard to write as, well, what comes immediately after that? And what comes immediately after that? I would be curious to know if this is like, if the film is structured exactly as it was written or if he found things in the edit that allowed for this to work more effectively. But nevertheless, like I was really blown away by it. I think you're making a great point that this is, it's a film that only he could make. And it's a film that he's clearly been working towards in a lot of ways.

40:44Sean Fennessey:this is for the end of the conversation, but like where to go from here for him is like, I have no idea. I don't know that you can do something bigger and more vast than this movie. You know, it is not, it is quite a stark film. It's not very funny. There's a couple of laugh lines. Yeah, but the laugh lines almost stick out. They do. As if they weren't on the page or it wasn't planned, but then you need to lean into it. And, you know, they are. I chuckled. You're relying on the star personas of people, too, to kind of make moments with their dialogue readings or something like that. Yeah. No, this is not a world of humor.

41:23The stakes are quite serious. This is. And again, to me, it's like a great match with Nolan. A very serious and self-serious filmmaker has picked. Has just finally gone full epic. And if there are jokes in the original Homer poem, you know, they don't, comedy doesn't translate over that many years. So I think it matches well.

41:47Sean Fennessey:Well, similarly, it's not a very silly movie because there could be a version of the Odyssey that prominently features the gods. Like the gods could be visually represented and only one god is really visually represented in this movie, Athena. But you could visually represent the gods and you could have Zeus on the mountaintop throwing lightning bolts and you could have Poseidon rise from beneath the sea. And he dispenses with all that. Which is smart. It's very smart. And it makes it feel more like a kind of cosmic doom surrounds Odysseus as opposed to an actual creature of some kind is determining their fate.

42:22Sean Fennessey:And it also kind of calls into question the sanity of the characters because these are articles of faith, right? Most of what they're discussing are not these corporeal representations of power. They're just ideas that the citizens have of these communities. Which, you know, then also sets up something that I think the movie does incredibly well, which is opens up what what the characters are arguing about in a very temporal, you know, contemporary Greek sense to modern times. And, you know, it's about ways of living and what are your what are your beliefs and what are your philosophies and what do you value and what do you not value?

42:57And if you have Zeus there yelling about Zeus's law or Xenia or you didn't wash the feet the right way, the more you literalize it, the further it seems to a modern audience. But when you just make it about how do you treat a stranger and how do you create a world that you want to live in, it's incredibly resonant.

43:20Sean Fennessey:I totally agree. It makes the movie more, the movie's primary theme ultimately, I think, is the erosion or destruction of civilizations and how frequently aggression and war lead to these erosions and they kind of deepen them even further. The movie is very, very modern in multiple ways. It is very clearly speaking to a contemporary time with this idea. It's also using colloquial language like dad and stuff. Those are two words that appear in the movie. And I think that's probably smart to both ground a contemporary audience and also to make those same connections that you're describing so it feels like it's legible.

43:54Sean Fennessey:But by not having the gods in the movie, but also having the traditions of the gods, the ideas of the gods, the sort of morality of the gods, it means it's up to the people to make the choices, to do the things that are right. And so the movie is very consumed by the moral stature of this Greek society. And if it's being broken, why is it being broken? And who can save it? I think who can save it is something that amuses you a little bit. Well, who's responsible for it all? And I found that the conclusions of that part of the movie to be very profound. And then, yeah, there's a, you know, the burden of genius runs through every single Christopher Nolan movie.

44:32And it goes through this as well. I mean, that is also textually accurate. Like Odysseus is described as the clever and most greatest of warriors. The poem itself does not communicate as much internal psychology as, or not that I picked up in the translation, as we have become accustomed to as, you know, therapized children of the modern world. but it again I just think it's I think it's very clever that he actually picked this text where it allows him a springboard to you know use very very big set pieces in spectacle to interrogate the things that he is clearly quite interested in and has been I want to talk a bit about the

45:18Sean Fennessey:actors yeah and like we'll have to figure out the best way to have this conversation because we can talk about each sequence most of which are pretty breathtaking yeah plus this raft of movie stars that are strewn throughout the movie, some in big parts, some in very small parts. But the decision to cast Matt Damon is pretty crucial. To me, it did two things, aside from just casting a tremendously dependable movie star. One, it means that every single character in this movie is speaking with an American accent. Because Matt Damon is not doing an accent. And that means that everyone needs to sound like Matt Damon.

45:53Sean Fennessey:And if you watch movies from the 50s or 60s or 70s where you've got one character doing a German accent, one character doing a British accent. Frequently in movies like this, everyone does British. Brad Pitt tries to do British in Troy. That's incoherent because it's in Greece. But this choice, I think, also modernizes the movie. If this were Tom Hardy or Cillian Murphy, two actors who I could very much also see playing Odysseus in totally different registers, I think the movie's different. And I think that if the movie is British, it's weirdly not as effective because of what Nolan's intentions are.

46:26Sean Fennessey:Do you agree with that? I do agree with that. I think also when you're casting each of those actors, I mean, you named Cillian Murphy and Tom Hardy, but they are bringing different relationships to the audience and different assumptions of how you're interpreting Odysseus than Damon does. Yes. And you're rooting for Matt Damon. That's it. You're always rooting for Matt Damon, even when you're not supposed to be rooting for Matt Damon. See the talented Mr. Ripley and the informant!

46:59And the movie uses that so well, but it's essential because otherwise, this is a character who otherwise makes a lot of decisions where you're like, sir, really?

47:12Sean Fennessey:It complicates the text to make him so likable. Yeah. Matt Damon is very likable and he's very easy to root for as a movie star. And he has played bad guys. He played a bad guy in a Christopher Nolan movie. He's very good in Interstellar. But Odysseus not only makes poor choices, but he's arrogant. And he makes those poor choices out of a sense of accomplishment. And he's a trickster. And he's a bit venal. And Damon doesn't really play him that way. He plays him slightly more innocent and then ultimately faithful. Yeah. And I'll say it's a pivot from the text that is fascinating because it does strike me that this is how Nolan sees all of his protagonists.

47:57Sean Fennessey:He does not see them as men with ill intention. Oppenheimer is one of the most controversial people of the 20th century. Right. He's responsible for creating something that led to this destruction of cities and lives, thousands and thousands of lives. But he has sincere empathy for Oppenheimer in the film. Right. And he ends that movie portraying his regret instead of something else. Yeah. And this movie similarly, even though Odysseus is just kind of an archetypal character, he's like a wily trickster. But in almost every instance, it takes away the responsibility of Odysseus from his actions and or tries to smooth them and make them more relatable.

48:44Yeah. Which I think is wise, again, from trying to translate this to a modern audience, you read the original poem and it's just a it's a picture of a completely different society that treats men, women, people who are not aristocrats, by which I mean, you know, enslaved people like very differently, like the morals, the way it's just it's a it is a foreign world. and you know that's that's the way they lived and necessary I guess to the to the times or to the organization but so but the the Odysseus in the in in the poem is not someone who you could identify with because you would never be in a situation where you just need to like stick around on a witch's island for a year and and have a tour of love affair because your men need to rest after being turned into pigs.

49:39You know, you're just, it's, it's, so I think it's savvy. To your point, it is very much in keeping with certainly Oppenheimer and with Nolan movies in general, where they are protagonists, pun intended, who take on great challenges and really do feel like both the triumphs and the ills of the world are their creation. And that involves both pride and guilt. And I turned to you as we walked out of our first screening of The Odyssey, of Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. We've seen it twice. And I asked you, like, a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but also sincerely, and I went home and asked Zach this as well, like, do you as a man just walk around being like, this is all great, but it's also all my fault?

50:30like it there is there is something that all of his characters do that um you know assumes some responsibility but not all of it and there's there's a hubris there's an ambition i mean i i think those are twins you can't really have one without the other at least in a realistic world um that i find i find a little amusing but also i think i find it alien um i don't i don't relate

50:58Sean Fennessey:because I don't see myself as a great man. It's really that simple. I think if you look at Batman's burden, Batman, you know, sets out to find identity for himself. And in doing so, he feels that fighting crime and making the world more safe is a reason to be alive. And in doing so, he draws out all these freaks who want to defeat him. And then those freaks tend to make Gotham crazy. So the inextricable relationship between Batman and the Joker is the same thing that you're describing here. The same thing is true of Oppenheimer. The same thing is true of Leonardo DiCaprio's character in Inception, who's desperate to go back to a more innocent time with his family, but also has this extraordinary power.

51:35Sean Fennessey:And that power can mean something really special for the world if he uses it correctly. The same is true in Interstellar, a man who abandons his family to go on a journey. And by the time he returns home, he's, if not forgotten, a figure of some controversy. He does it in every movie. And it's easy to psychologize. This is a guy who goes on journeys to go make movies. Yeah. Now, it's a family affair. His wife is a producer. It sounds like his kids go with him. But there's something going. Maybe it was his parents. You know, maybe there's something in his life that makes him return to this structure over and over and over again.

52:06Sean Fennessey:There's always a watchful older figure. You know, Michael Caine played this role in all these films. There's always somebody who's sort of like maybe he had an uncle who was very insightful. Yeah. Who gave him some guidance. In this film, John Leguizamo plays that character. He's this sort of like watchful, protective seer type figure who stays guard at the palace. Like these frameworks recur over and over again because he no doubt relates to them. I'm just a guy with a podcast, you know, that's not something that I really see. One thing that I don't mean to judge him for it. And I mean, I guess I do judge him for it all the time.

52:43That's the history of podcasting. But the great man trope is recurring. and I do think it's amusing to me. I think it's fascinating. I think it's also what, you know, Western stories and movies are based on, both textually and in terms of people being like, yeah, I can make this three-hour epic and not use effects and film in the craziest locations in the world. You need that ambition. So I do respect it. I thought it was interesting in this movie and a choice I liked in this movie is that some of that same ambition is applied to Penelope, his wife, his long-suffering wife, as her character. And it was funny, even in those moments, she has kind of two standoffs with her son, Telemachus.

53:33Penelope is played by Anne Hathaway, just soaring heat, and Telemachus is played by Tom Holland, using an American accent. and in she's you know she is a frustrated person she is a woman in a man's world and she's you know being pushed around by all of these people and she expresses some desire to to be in charge of things herself she also kind of tells off her son a couple times in ways where I was like this is a little intense I don't you know but it was interesting then to realize that I don't have the the great woman complex either, you know? And I was interested to see him assigning it to both characters.

54:15I think that's a new and positive development in what has been a pretty historically complicated character to unwind for modern audiences.

54:22Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think that is them to modernize that strain of the story to make it... As much as you can. Yeah, I think to just make it more sympathetic and to make us understand a little bit more how Penelope should be operating maybe in our modern times. as someone with a little bit more agency or a little bit more desire. This sort of like, this feeling like she should have the right to, if not claim her husband, which is what she really wants. She wants her husband to come home. But if that's not going to happen, how can she secure her own fate in a life that she wants to lead? I think if it's not Anne Hathaway, I don't know if that character works as well.

55:01Sean Fennessey:Sure. Because she really is, you know, she's a very skilled actor, one of my very favorite actors in the universe. but she is really good at going big. And like this reading of Penelope is very like sucking on your teeth and like daggers for eyes, like staring down Tom Holland and then just kind of burning him alive with her words. And she does this a couple of times. She gets a couple of moments with Odysseus where she's sort of more open and sensitive and they show their love to each other. But she's a very fierce character and you need a very fierce actor to do it. And in the wrong hands, I think it could have gone pretty terribly.

55:34Sean Fennessey:I would say the writing is a little bit weaker in the Penelope scenes. And I find this in most Nolan movies. I find he kind of struggles to write women like this. And I was grateful that she was in the part. That's what I'll say. Yeah. I mean, I do think that it's, I was giving points for improvement, you know? And also because I did see the intent of trying to do something different with this character. A character who in the text just like, you know, sits at home. The traditional Oscar-nominated performance of The Wife. Yeah. Kitty Oppenheimer. Yeah. Totally. So I liked it, and I agree that just watching Anne Hathaway cook and eat Tom Holland alive, not literally, but pretty much.

56:23Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I mean, other creatures eat things alive, for sure. We're speaking in big thematic historical structures around adaptation and ideas. but as I said, this is a big dumb action movie as well. Totally. And after you get through the first roughly 20 minutes or so, which features a lot of exposition and kind of scene and community setting around where Penelope is at this moment in time after Odysseus has been gone for all these years and what her relationship is to her son. Yeah. You know, we get launched into the action. Yeah. And very quickly, we are shown Odysseus on the beaches trying to remember his life and starting to tell his own story.

57:07Sean Fennessey:And is the Cyclops really the first true adventure that we get after he leaves the shores of battle after 10 years and decides to set out with his men? And when he sets out with his men, he does so on his own terms. He doesn't follow Agamemnon. Right. He goes on his own path. And Himesh Patel, who's wonderful in this movie as his second-in-command, is skeptical right from the jump. Yeah. Which I think shows us how we should regard Odysseus in the movie as someone who's a little brazen and has his own ideas and not all those ideas work. But very quickly they start realizing that they need to hit land so that they can restock their food and water.

57:45Yeah.

57:46Sean Fennessey:And every time they show up on the shore somewhere, something terrible happens. You know, I don't think he has one good landing spot across this entire journey. Well, Calypso, debatable. Good point. Yeah. I want to talk more about it. We'll all talk more about Calypso. Yeah, we will. Yeah. Yeah, she's very special. The Cyclops is, I thought this worked phenomenally well. Yeah. I've gotten some feedback from people who didn't like this as much because it's a combination of a puppet and a human performance from the actor Bill Irwin. And the Cyclops is something that is probably the single most memorable monster from all of Homer's stories and one that has been rendered on screen many times.

58:26Sean Fennessey:This is the most human-esque version, I think, that I've seen in a movie. and the sequence has changed quite a bit from what's in the poem, specifically like what this character, what Odysseus does to trick the monster. But I thought it was very involving and I wasn't taken out of it at all by the puppetry or the effects work or anything like that. And, you know, shooting inside of that cave with the flock of sheep, I thought was fantastic. I loved it. I mean, you know, it is very classical horror tropes of don't go into that cave and is made in in just that way. But no, you know, we should say the film opens with a title card that says in a time of apparent magic, which I, you know, I thought of in a time of great mischief and the secret agent.

59:17But also I did think was tone setting in a way that I'm not going to be seeing. You know, it is fantastical. it is and I and and so I guess I was sitting there thinking like oh wow that's a real person they're doing this you know practically or that's a puppet and this is I was thinking excitedly this is not CGI so I guess that works for people but I will always just be pumped when I realize that

59:43Sean Fennessey:something is not CGI and they tried something yeah I agree I think you know choosing Bill Irwin who in addition to being an actor who people recognize from movies like Rachel getting marriage is also a mime. And so his ability to kind of affect, is it Polyphemus? What is that? The name of the Cyclops. The Cyclops is a weird character because, you know, he's the son of Poseidon and he's this sort of half man, half creature, half God. Right. He makes cheese. He makes cheese and he can speak. You know, the change from the poem is interesting. You know, there's a famous thing where he tells the Cyclops, Odysseus, that his name is nobody.

1:00:22No man, yeah.

1:00:23Sean Fennessey:No man. So that when he pokes his eye out and he's writhing in pain on the ground, he says, nobody hurt me. Yeah. No man hurt me. And no one comes to save him. And that's how they escape. And the movie dispenses with that. And it creates just, actually, I think what you said is right. It's like a more of like a horror escape sequence where you're sort of like racing away from the monster. that I thought was effective. But that was one of the very few things from the book that I remembered when I was watching the movie. I was waiting for him, waiting for Matt Damon to pull some trickery. And it's much more of just like an escape from a big creature.

1:00:56And then Odysseus, you know, turns back to poke him once again

1:01:03Sean Fennessey:and to further anger the Cyclops so that the Cyclops then chases them and, you know, and they lose some men, which also featured my favorite bit of puppetry or acting, which was just the grimace on the Cyclops' face before. And that was genuinely really funny. Really, really, really good stuff. And again, you know, they're filming in some beautiful beach and he's throwing things and it all looks pretty real. I, you know, I was very pro. Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably worth noting that the film, I think, is in seven countries on at least two continents, maybe three continents. It's in Morocco, Greece, Italy, Iceland, the Falls Lake water tank on the Universal Studios lot, which I've been to, and Scotland.

1:01:51And that it's not easy

1:01:54Sean Fennessey:to film in places like this and not everyone can do it. But if you can do it, you should do it. It really, really helps this film on a consistent basis. Transcendent. There are several moments when they're out at sea when the camera pulls way back to show the epic scale of the ships that have been constructed. I mean, one of the shots looks like a Turner painting. There's another one when Odysseus is just alone on the beach, and it's just like the grand scale of it. The palace in Ithaca, which I believe is in an island off Sicily, the goat island, is like magnificent. It is. You know, and these are real places.

1:02:29Sean Fennessey:As Telemachus goes on his journey to learn more about his father, he goes to Menelaus, Agamemnon's brother, who is settled back in his throne years after the war. I love you doing Homer. Thank you. This is my interpretation. Step aside, Emily Wilson. And he sits and has a meal with Menelaus and Helen, and Menelaus tells him the story of the Trojan horse. First of all, Bernthal, I loved it. I wasn't sure if I was going to love it. I was a little concerned when I saw the earliest material of this, of the Hey Dad and stuff and the colloquial stuff that you find throughout the movie. But his demon energy, I think, is very well suited.

1:03:08Sean Fennessey:His aggro bro energy is what you might think a figure like him would be like if he were transported to modern times. And so him telling this story and then the way that this... The younger cucked brother. Yes, very much so. Somebody who's not totally fulfilled despite being married to Helen. I, the Trojan War shit is unreal. Now we saw, we saw this early on before the movie came out. Um, but the realization of it, again, done entirely practically. And I think a lot of times when you watch representations of this story on screen, even in animation, everything seems easy. And what this movie shows you is that everything at this time in history was hard.

1:03:47Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And that surviving inside of the horse would have been nearly impossible. That the, the piss and the shit that you would have been surrounded by, the way that you know they would check the horse when they're drawing it into the city with the blades people would become injured and die people would die inside of the horse getting the horse up into the city across these hundreds of logs that are set up from the shores would be hard like there is physical toll in everything that happens in the world that the movie goes out of its way to show it doesn't just say like it doesn't yada yada anything it might have a fast cutting style that moves you through it quickly but they built all this stuff yeah and now it's on display outside the Universal City Walk.

1:04:28Sean Fennessey:Yes. This is electric. This is when I just kind of, my spirit left my body. Me too. Because, you know, the Trojan horse is a reference point, like not a pop culture, like a cultural idea that has been repeated so many times in so many different ways and has become a part of our language. So you do forget that it's a real thing that could be made and constructed and elongated this the sequence comes at like exactly one hour into the movie which I think is so smart like I checked my watch but I just really appreciated the clockwork of that and it's it's thrilling it is upsetting to your point you know and it uses his other movies like the Dunkirk Dunkirk in the horse instead of the ship there is this there are these nice callbacks yes throughout that I found very exciting and yeah You just kind of can't believe what you're watching.

1:05:28And then it does turn into just like full-blown battle sequence, right? With Bernthal and Damon like screaming and lots of arrows and...

1:05:36Sean Fennessey:Well, it's like, it's a very briefly like an espionage film when they break out, you know, and they set their plan to sort of open the castle gates and let their soldiers storm in. And, you know, I didn't, I really liked, the second time around, I really liked that part and showing how they sort of, the geography of the movie is very coherent where you constantly know where characters are going and what it is that they're attempting to do, which can be confusing in movies like this sometimes, especially ones that are cut this way. But then when it does tear into battle and you watch Agamemnon walk through those gates and hundreds of men streaming behind him.

1:06:10You had some notes about Agamemnon's armor, but I think in that setup, when the gates go wide. I think it looks great.

1:06:18Sean Fennessey:I appreciate the, is it Ellen Mirajnik was the costume designer? I honor her efforts. I've been told it's not historically accurate. I don't really care about that. I think it's very funny that he cast Benny Safdie as Agamemnon, who, if you've met Benny Safdie, you would not say he strikes the same pose that that character does. But I think that's very intentional because of Agamemnon's fate, you know, and the kind of who is ultimately behind a helmet like that during war. Yeah. And what does a man like that represent, actually? The only moment that you see the man behind the helmet is a very crucial moment when he's laid bare.

1:06:54I did want to talk about arrows for a second.

1:06:56Sean Fennessey:Sure. Arrow corner? Yeah, arrow corner. How are we so instantly killing everybody with an arrow until we're not? There is an inconsistency on that. Sometimes you shoot a guy and they just fall right down. And then at other points, Odysseus has three arrows sticking out of him and he's fine. He's a great warrior. obviously. Okay, so it's really just about your own personal metal as to whether the arrow can get you. Are they dipped in any sort of poison? Not seemingly not in this film. I think we know that Odysseus is a great archer. We do know that and he has precision. Yes. And so it's just about is it just about where you get hit?

1:07:34Sean Fennessey:I think so. If you got hit right now, if you got hit in the eye with an arrow. Jack, get the bow and arrow. Are you instantly dead or are you just really really mad? In the eye? Yeah. If I caught an arrow in the eye, in all likelihood it's going to my brain. So I think that would be problematic. But do you think that's instant death? I think that's what I'm asking. Why is it there kind of more like zombie struggle? Why is this important to you? I found myself wondering because there was a lot of bow and arrows because they're picking people off before they can get to the gates of joy to open them.

1:08:04Sean Fennessey:I think neck, head, and heart, you're going down for the count. Anywhere else I think is survivable. Okay. I mean, they used what they had. I understand. This is a convenience of action movie storytelling. Totally. I just... I'm just like, guy gets hit with arrow and he's out. I was that engaged with the battle that I was wondering about the mechanics of bow and arrows. Also, the mechanics of bow and arrows are essential to the plot of Homer's Odyssey and Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. We will get there. The Trojan horse story, we return to that moment a few times. The beheading of Athena's statue.

1:08:35And when we're watching it

1:08:37Sean Fennessey:the first time, we have this incredible feeling of excitement and grandeur. The good guys are about to win. They're storming the castle and they're going to take over. And then you realize as you go through the rest of the film and we return visually to those moments over and over again, that this is one of the worst things that's ever happened to Odysseus. Yeah. That him being a part of this incredible epic triumph in war has destroyed his civilization, has destroyed his psyche, has destroyed his perception of what it is to be human. You know, as you said, like, that's not really in the poem.

1:09:08Sean Fennessey:None of it is. Like, that reading of the character is really interesting. it's really quite insightful and a way to change what the Odyssey can be to us because we're living in a time of unjust wars right now you know we're living in a time of people being killed for very bad reasons and I love that he uses what in any other Hollywood product would have just been the moment of greatest triumph for our hero where we just you know just like Achilles is the great hero and also that in Nolan fashion you see it twice And so, you know, we can talk about like the second, the second viewing of the sacking of Troy from a slightly different perspective when we get to it.

1:09:53But, but the fact that you have already lived through it from Menelaus's point of view and you experience the victory and then the victory is eroded for two hours is, I think, really special.

1:10:04Sean Fennessey:It's incredibly smart. You know, we eventually return back to Odysseus. Odysseus begins visiting many islands. And I like this part of the movie, but I do feel like this is the part of the movie even the second time around. I was like, okay, we're going through the stages of each moment in the Odyssey. So we are going to see the Lestragonians, the giant soldiers who in this film are wearing this massive armor. They're not quite cannibals as portrayed in the poem, but they are these, you know, terrifying figures who are overwhelming Odysseus' men as they're seeking, I guess, a herd of, I don't know, goats to eat?

1:10:42Sean Fennessey:Is that what they're following? Sheep? Sheep. They don't even make it to the sheep on this one. The sheep are, this one, they just, they see the one wailing child. No, no, no. This is the child who screams quite loudly. Who can relate? Me. and then all of the adult soldiers who are featured pretty prominently on the posters and it just looked like really giant. They do. Intense warriors. I assume those are all just giant men. I didn't know there was maybe some stilt and some like trench work going on. They battle in a forest, so there are lots of different ways that you could. But I mean, they just go nuts.

1:11:20Sean Fennessey:It's the most classically swords and sandals moment in the movie, I would say, where it's just like big scary guys battling little guys and chasing them down the mountain. And many men are killed. An entire ship is destroyed by these figures who are just marauding the ship. It's very exciting. It has like the most typically propulsive score from Ludwig Garnson. It feels like more like Tenet than it does like the rest of this film, which is using, you know, the music throughout I thought was fantastic. I really feel like he's an heir to the 1940s and 50s film composers. who knew how to swell you.

1:11:56Sean Fennessey:You know, he's using much more modern styles. But in this movie, Goranson uses like the aulos, I think is what it's called, which is like a dual reeded woodwind instrument. And so he cuts these two different sonic styles. One that's just like pure war drums and one that is this more like the lyre and that instrument to sort of like transport you back 3 ,000 years to make you feel like you're listening to something old. And so the movie keeps doing that too, where each sequence, you know, Cersei follows the Lestergonians. And that's more goats, I think. Pigs? Yeah. I don't know. There are many creatures on that.

1:12:36There are lions and tigers. There's a lion and bears. Oh, my.

1:12:39Sean Fennessey:Actually real people who have been transformed by Cersei. And the Cersei sequence is yet another island and they're kind of crashing ashore and they're looking for food. They're lost. They're looking for food. what year are we in now in their journey year six, seven you know it's been a long time that they've been at sea and this is Nolan's first true horror movie this sequence Samantha Morton plays Cersei and she leads Odysseus' men and this is also a moment where Odysseus has essentially been mutinied right they're getting fed up they're sick of his shit and all the bad choices he's been making and you know for the sickos like me I was like yes, yes when the men start eating the stew.

1:13:24It was so gnarly in the best way. Like very, very gross. And again, sort of practical, you know, they're using, so it's like it's sort of meat squid-like stuff that turns tentacles. Yes.

1:13:39Sean Fennessey:And as Cersei starts shaping the men's faces into pigs, it reminded me a lot of the transformation scene in An American Werewolf in London, which is also done practically. It felt like a Rick Baker makeup sequence. And I'm sure that there were effects that were used on that in post, but doing something like that and showing you just enough to make you uncomfortable and to feel disgusted, but not so much that it breaks the illusion of what's happening is a real feat. Now, Cersei is also somewhat different in this adaptation, right? Yeah, well, abbreviated. And so Cersei also, there was a bestselling, a wildly popular recontextualization, a novel in the last 10 years called Cersei that is told from her point of view.

1:14:26And, you know, that expands and gets into, I think, you know, non-canon territory, which is fine. But I do, as previously noted, think that this film elides the year-long passionate love affair that she and Odysseus have after the pigs are turned and the pigs are turned back to men.

1:14:46Sean Fennessey:Why do you think that is? Why do you think it elides it? Because this movie doesn't want to show Matt Damon fucking Samantha Morton. No, you think that's it? I think it's because he's only, he has to be true to Penelope. That's my point. We don't see Odysseus getting down with all these ladies. There are multiple moments across the story where like Odysseus arrives on shore and women are ogling him because he's such a beautiful, epic warrior. Right. And he's like, no, no, ladies, do not look upon me. I only have eyes for home. Yeah. And for Penelope, which if Penelope is Anne Hathaway, I get it.

1:15:16True. You know, I guess also story time. I mean, you just mentioned they've at this point in the story, they've been at sea for like six or seven years. We've not seen six or seven years worth of content. You know, we don't see any of the mundane of these people need to sleep and eat and do all the things that is indicated in the in the Circe portion. But yeah. Yeah, she doesn't really get redeemed. But she's not evil either. He's sympathetic to her. There's a component of sympathy. I agree with you.

1:15:48Sean Fennessey:And I think this kind of extends to every character in the movie. Maybe not Scylla, but most of the characters in the movie are seen as complicated and flawed, but not evil. I guess Robert Pattinson's character is the one character who is truly Snidely Whiplash, old school movie villain. And, you know, as we're going through these journeys, you know, eventually Odysseus travels to Hades. But before he does that, we see more from Telemachus and the more time he spends with Menelaus and him trying to figure out as he's traveling with Mentor what he should do and where he should go. and it's happening opposite Pattinson's character, Antonis, who is, I guess, a local nobleman who is attempting to become Penelope's husband.

1:16:40Yeah, he's one of the most aggressive suitors, though there are dozens of them. And they're drinking all the wine and eating all the food and bullying other people.

1:16:49Sean Fennessey:Let's say Zack unexpectedly kicks the bucket. God forbid that doesn't happen. I would be devastated. But let's just say it happens. Is this what you would do? Well, do I know is the thing, because that's the other question. Like, they don't know what has happened to Odysseus, and all they can rely on are stranger's tales. Okay, Zach's been gone for 20 years. Are you hosting 12 suitors? I mean, no, if I can possibly help it, because Penelope also seems pretty pissed off. They're using all of her supplies. she's I mean the management system in this home is more archaic and relies on slave labor but maybe don't trust me a goth as well in my house something worth considering then I gotta feed all these people I gotta be in charge of this stuff no absolutely not you know what if Pattinson was one of the guys well yeah Pattinson and his skirt was just conspicuously shorter than all the other skirts you noticed that I did interesting I tried to point them out to you You can see those nice knees.

1:17:49Is that something you're looking for in a man? I didn't know until I saw it, you know, but I think that not everyone has nice knees and not all the knees are on display, but he's just he's gallivanting. Not really a knee guy. Again, I didn't think my knees are fine. OK, I have no knowledge of what they look like and I don't need to know. Give you a look later.

1:18:10Sean Fennessey:I. I do think that this this part of the story, I think, is OK. I. The suitor stuff? Yeah, it's not my favorite. I think it's very broad. It's very broad. It exists for a very obvious reason, which is that Zeus's law and the sort of the golden rule, which is so crucial to understanding how ultimately these characters feel at the end of the story, is kind of returned to over and over again. That Penelope sort of has to host these suitors because it is the nature of the community at this time. And this idea that if a beggar comes to your door, you have to welcome that person in. You can't turn them away because of Zeus's law.

1:18:44Sean Fennessey:And we see Telemachus refer to it. you know we see characters throughout the story say that there was a kind of politesse that is essential to hold civilization together. Xenia which is really the only Xenia sorry if I'm not saying it correctly but that's the only thing they taught us when we read this in school and I didn't I didn't care then and I agree with you that I don't totally relate to it in the in the very literal terms of the movie. You know it also exists because they need to present a challenge and a conflict to Penelope. Otherwise, she would just either wait patiently for Odysseus and or be like, hello, Robert Pattinson, and you're a nice niece.

1:19:21She's just a damsel otherwise. And I think that they, you know, otherwise the conflict when Odysseus, there's no conflict once Odysseus gets home. And it's not, it's just a happy homecoming. I mean, like, he made it, show's over. I wouldn't exercise it, I don't think.

1:19:38Sean Fennessey:It's more just that it's played very broadly, but it's a chamber piece. It's not an action set piece. And so the broad stuff in the chamber piece is maybe a little bit less effective. I do think that he makes this great choice to kind of constantly be shooting Anne Hathaway from behind these kind of veiled circumstances, the threading that she's working on, or that sort of sliding door that she sits behind. The modesty screen? Yes, the modesty screen. Interesting. I don't know if that's what they called it. But, you know, I thought it was a very clear architectural representation of the societal divides that are forced upon.

1:20:11And she's only allowed to be in certain rooms and in certain places. Very much. It's clever. And also mirrors the Trojan gates.

1:20:19Sean Fennessey:That's right. But also that women are meant to be desired but not engaged with, you know. So it's effective. It's just whenever the movie pivots back to those scenes, I'm like, okay, well, when are we, you know, when are we going to Hades? When are we going to meet? When are we going to see Sinan? We have not mentioned yet Elliot Page's character. When are we going to see his rise from the dead? When are we going to see Agamemnon come and tell his tale? When are we going to see Tiresias give his prophecy? I love this scene. This is, again, like this is the third scene in a row that you could comfortably call a horror sequence in the movie.

1:20:55Sean Fennessey:And obviously this stuff is all in the text. but he shoots this fantastically this sort of the blood sacrifice across the shield and then sipping from the blood and the dirt and makeup that is applied to the actress faces in this scene I think this is in Iceland so it's just kind of a barren yes like cold and black yeah and like very beautiful but communicating the underworld yes I love this part I think the performances from all three of the actors in this scene are fantastic I think it's it's a challenge in the story that you can't really get around the prophecy. And it's not a flaw of the movie, but it is just an essential part of the movie where the movie tells you what's going to happen in the movie next.

1:21:38Sean Fennessey:And what they tell you is exactly what happens. So I don't know if you felt this way, but I certainly felt this way where Teresius gives his prophecy and he says, you will encounter the sirens and you should not listen to their song because it will... Oh, I disagree. I think for a number of reasons because I think that including the prophecy then sets up Odysseus' attempts to subvert it, which are fruitless, but, you know, an interesting wrinkle. And the prophecy comes right after the most direct accounting and the most emotional accounting of the ways that Odysseus has just failed people and betrayed people.

1:22:22You have Sinan speaking with great regret and hurt about, I was used and you lied to me. And you see what have otherwise been mythological exploits and decisions related on a very person-to-person human cost. And then you see, then Agamemnon puts forth kind of the uselessness of all of this in a different way. Helen has already introduced that. Lupita Nyong 'o plays Helen and she contextualizes the Trojan War sequence in terms of, you know, a war done in my name, but not for me at all, for trade routes and for a power grab. And so...

1:23:12Sean Fennessey:And she also plays Clytemnestra, her sister. Who in this flashback sequence takes revenge for Agamemnon killing her child, sacrificing her child, murdering her child, which you are shown in a very, very bleak and upsetting way. It is a retelling that has a lot of empathy for Clytemnestra. And so you've just been presented this person who has like betrayed people and made mistakes and like all for what. And, you know, Odysseus down bad in that moment is what I would say. And kind of your affinity for him is down bad. And so it then gives the audience and you and Odysseus the motivation of, well, at least he's going to try to fight for the last few men.

1:24:06At least he's going to try. he's, you know, it's folly to try to overturn what the gods have faded, but also he wants to, and that's like a mark in his favor, I guess. So I think it, to me, the characterization, and then I just also, like, I thought the Sirens was one of the best three minutes of a movie I've seen in some time. I completely agree. I can't believe how good it was. So I didn't really, and it does go by quickly. So some context, I mean, you're right that it's just expositional.

1:24:35Sean Fennessey:I think what it does is it just, it makes the, it's not a flaw of the story. Like, it is the story. It is the story that the prophecy is delivered and then these three things happen. I think it's more like, even though we know Odysseus is going to make these choices to try to subvert the prophecy, we also know as readers of the story or just knowers of the story or having seen the movie a second time, you're like, the incident is too clearly enunciated. It's a little too, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them. It's not a bad thing. Which is good journalism.

1:25:09Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:25:10Sean Fennessey:It's very direct. I agree with you completely about the siren sequence, which is very hard to capture because it's like the Cyclops. It's something people know very well. It's gone into the language as meaning other things. It's become very metaphorical for us. The sirens are barely seen. He makes a very wise choice to kind of shoot them at a distance on the island. And it is a moment of pure agony for Damon. and Damon kind of turning himself over so intensely in his performance when he chooses to hear the song that it's like, it's a standout moment in the movie. I mean, the performance is amazing because also when he chooses to hear the song, which from the Emily Wilson translation, at least is different than in the poem, I think Cersei tells him to listen to it.

1:25:56And instead it's Damon, you know, with a little mischief in his eye. And so, you know, it's Matt Damon doing Damon, but also once again, getting you really back on his side, because why wouldn't you want to hear it? And then, you know, transforming into that total agony. And I also felt that just the writing, the screenwriting and the description of what that song was and what he heard is holy Nolan. And some of the best explication of what's going on in his work and some of the best writing that he's done about longing and guilt and what you've lost.

1:26:35Sean Fennessey:Yeah, no, he says that the thing that you desire the most is the thing that you had and can no longer have. and it him the way he's cut together him retelling the experience of what he heard and understood while showing Damon in that absolute agony is just again like it's in the total cinema thing where you're like you've kind of figured out how to most beautifully represent one of the most famous sequences in all of stories sublime yeah and it just and it really all comes together and it really is only it's three minutes um but you just that was I think that was the second time that I sort of, you know, my soul left my body.

1:27:10Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I love that sequence as well. Two times in a movie already and we're not to the third act. Yes. We speedrun Scylla and Charybdis. As they do. As they do in the story. It's just a few pages, yeah. Yeah, but also just, you know, as they do in the film, you don't want to take your time. No, you got to get past that whirlpool. And I think it's pretty, this is the most fantastical sequence in the entire movie because it's a monster and a massive whirlpool that has a mind of its own. and I think it looks good. You know, I think his attempts to save everyone are foolhardy. I think Himish Patel at this point in the film has become almost like the audience surrogate where we're with him and his frustration with Odysseus' pride and arrogance in all of these gestures.

1:27:57Sean Fennessey:We move quickly to Helios' cattle and the final fate of the fleet. We don't even really see the final fate of the fleet, but we see them eat that cattle, which they were told not to do. I just wanted to say that on this one, the Scylla of it all, you really don't see all of Scylla very much, which is just the tentacles, which is a very smart, you know, Spielberg 101 decision, but I loved it. I agree. Nice cliffs. Now, throughout the movie, we've been seeing Calypso. Yeah. Odysseus and Calypso are on an island together. She's feeding him lotus flower. Yeah. He clearly can't remember everything about his life.

1:28:35And he keeps saying, why can't I remember? Do you remember?

1:28:38Sean Fennessey:And so the movie is told through these phases of his memory. And after his fleet finally perishes and he washes ashore on this island, we see that it's all been kind of leading to this moment where the timelines are starting to settle in together. And this is about where we're entering the third act here of the movie. And we've gotten through all the kind of classical Odyssey incidents.

1:29:01Sean Fennessey:And Charlize Theron. Yeah.

1:29:07Um, inspired casting.

1:29:11Sean Fennessey:Sure. You know what? If you had to be trapped by... I agree 100%. Well, yeah. No, I mean... You had to be trapped by a demigod on an island and have sex with her every day for seven years. And they... Well, they don't show any of that. Yeah. Well, it's implied. It sure is implied. The way that they dress her, the way that they shoot her. There's, you know, one shot from behind that is quite spectacular. and going on my inspiration board, you know, along with Emily Blunt's arms from Edge of Tomorrow. But yes, she's wonderful. And I think casting her is great and covers as much of the problems with, you know, the character, the writing, the characterization as you possibly can.

1:29:54Listen, it's a tough, tough character. It's in...

1:29:58Sean Fennessey:I like what she does specifically in the performance because she plays it, and I'm sure this is in the screenplay as well. She plays it with a lot of regret and confusion. She doesn't play it as this kind of like spider lady, you know, who's kind of like taken him away from his real life and love and using him for his beautiful body and the desire that she has for him. That's there. You understand that. But she's kind of mournful about what she's done. And she's kind of gotten to the end of this period of time with this man who she's been obsessed with and who she's tricked into staying with her.

1:30:28and Charlize is a good enough actor that you know you're like oh I see that you've done the wrong

1:30:35Sean Fennessey:thing you've kept this man from his ultimate fate and that that actually is against the gods as well and I think you're right that it's a very simplistic character and it's a character that like really flatters a male protagonist and a male author totally which again is in the original text I you know I think it relatively speaking updates and modernizes and makes her more sympathetic and I agree with you in the performance you know she says over and over again we were happy we like we were really happy um which is at least trying to forge some sort of emotional connection or characterize you know give her some interiority but you know it's it's just like a woman who traps a guy and it's all her fault you know not exactly second wave it's not that being I would submit.

1:31:23Sean Fennessey:I would submit. Well, and so that's the one thing where I didn't know if the adaptation went far enough. I thought it could have been a little bit more provocative because it doesn't at any point suggest that the Odysseus character was, if not submitting, then like maybe did want to stay. There's no ambiguity. It's attributed to the lotus flower. and he was either, you know, drugged and didn't remember or wants to go home. And there's another point in the movie where someone asks him, why don't you want to go home? Is it at the sirens? But there is a little bit, a hint of a complication of, is there something holding you back?

1:32:08Like, is it true that you're this totally pure person who wants to go home? Yeah. You know?

1:32:13Sean Fennessey:I'll tell you what, we've made this list of things that we think this movie is really about. And one of the things that I think it's about is dad goes on a work trip. That's really what this movie is, is that Odysseus goes on a work trip. And I go on a lot of work trips. And here's my feelings on my work trips. First day, I'm a little disoriented, as everyone is. Second day, I'm like, I'm free. I have no responsibilities. I don't have to take care of my child. I don't have to make sure everything's okay in my house. I don't have to go to work. I'm free. Third day, I'm like, I got a lot of work here.

1:32:44Sean Fennessey:I'm doing stuff. I came here for a reason and I have all these responsibilities. Fourth day, I'm like, when am I going to see my family? Where is my family? And I think that that is Odysseus' story over 20 years. Sure. It's just transport that four-day feeling I have to 20 years. And so we see in various times, there are periods where he's like, I'm a fucking war hero and I'm hot. And I deserve to hear the siren song and then bang Calypso. I deserve it. But I don't think that the presentation of Calypso and the way that resolves ends with any acknowledgement that he's like, I deserve this, you know, and or even I had the tiniest bit of longing or I participated in any way in extending this like a little bit longer than I should.

1:33:30You wanted to see them get it on? No, no. I mean, sure, that would be great, you know. in that instance unlike the Penelope scene a child wouldn't be in the room with them which you know I know that's how it goes in ancient Greece or do I know but he he is absolved of all responsibility in in that decision and it's not there's no day two like hey I this is awesome I can do whatever I want with Calypso and you know I think that doesn't happen I think it could have been a bit it could have gone a bit further

1:34:04Sean Fennessey:do you think a man of his stature deserves to have that experience? Between him and Penelope and or Christopher Nolan and his Penelope. Emma Thomas, who was there every step of the way. You start to wonder whether... You're suggesting polyamory? No, no, no. I'm suggesting that maybe he doesn't... That's not allowed in the script because he's got someone right there on his work trip with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good point, good point. the final 45 minutes of the movie is all about Odysseus' return he rebuilds a raft from the remains of his ship he leaves Calypso he sets out to go back to Ithaca yeah at this time he passes out for a while and Athena just kind of yeah shuttles him along zips him we'll get to Athena momentarily this all leads to Penelope's sense that the moment has come where the suitors are going to become more agitated.

1:35:03Sean Fennessey:Antinous has made strong movements towards filling Odysseus' shoes. Telemachus thinks he's making moves, but he's just kind of a buffoon. And I'll just say plainly, I don't think Tom Holland is great in this movie. I think he's getting some good reviews. I think he struggles a little bit. I kept waiting for him to say, Mr. Stark, Mr. Stark. I couldn't get Peter Parker out of my head when I was watching him. The accent with him is noticeable. It's noticeable. You know, he's a good screen presence, and he's actually quite a good action hero, and he's a wonderful Spider-Man. Stuck out a little bit to me in the movie, if I'm giving some negative notes on it.

1:35:46Sean Fennessey:But when he becomes, together with Matt Damon, when at first Matt Damon introduces himself in the temple as a beggar, and then saves his life by eliminating all of Antinous' terrible henchmen, and then we see the plan to sort of take back the palace come together you forgot about the dog yes what's the dog Hargis is that the dog's name I didn't learn the dog's name but the dog has been waiting for Odysseus these 20 years yes on a pile of dung yes unfortunately put there by Antinus eventually this beggar enters the halls and Penelope decides after a long evening and a conversation with the beggar that the moment is now that if Odysseus is in fact still alive he will emerge at this time and emerge in this challenge that she sets up and if not she'll accept the fate from one of the suitors and what she sets up is a challenge only Odysseus can win and this part of the movie fucking rocks this is the absolute this is classical John Wick oh but you just skipped their conversation and the flashback yes which to me is the the pinnacle of the movie.

1:36:59Where he tells the story of the war and what he experienced. And so, and he's recognized by his nanny and, but tells her not to, and it's unclear he and...

1:37:09Sean Fennessey:A wonderful moment of, it's before the callback of the Trojan War where early in the film, we see Odysseus hunting and he's gored in his ankle by a boar. Yes. And he's, his wound is cleaned by this nanny. Right. And it's when his leg, his feet are being cleaned by this woman, some 30 years later that she realizes who he is and that's a great little movie moment of recognition he's gored by the way because he always gives like a warning shot with his bow he plucks his bow he plucks his bow which is just like an incredible sonic setup for another great movie moment A plus stuff but so he there's like 20 of these in the movie like somebody does something in the first hour and then they do it in the third hour and you're like yes god I love that but that one is just like the whole movie turns and it like brings in you're John Wick in that way.

1:37:58But before we get to that, he and Penelope, Odysseus is the stranger and Penelope have a conversation through the screen where he tells his version of the Trojan horse story. And he's telling it as a stranger, but with Odysseus's revisionist, you know, hard-earned understanding of what happened and what it did to the world. And it's really, And it's the thesis of the movie in terms of its thoughts about war, how we treat other people, what is our duty to, you know, to another man and the world at large in an incredibly beautiful way. And it is interspersed with like a second total run of the sacking of Troy.

1:38:46And they're lighting things on fire and beheading Athena's statue.

1:38:51Sean Fennessey:Their savagery is foreground. Yeah, and it is, there's so much Oppenheimer in this, while also it being just like a dramatic swords and sandal, again, lighting multiple things on fire, which is exciting, but also appalling. I see women and children in a way that we didn't in the first rendition of the story. And there's a similar, there's a shot that really mirrors that one shot from the pep rally or whatever in Oppenheimer of the young woman with her face disintegrating. In this film, I thought it was really genius that it's instead of a slave girl, it's Athena's face transported right on. And then there is that same exact moment framed in the same way of just like, this is the cost.

1:39:40This is, you know, this is what you're doing and what you're responsible for. I really, really transcendent stuff. And to me, kind of like the fullest representation and achievement of what Nolan's trying to do with, you know, certainly revisionist American history and broader social commentary about like I really, really powerful.

1:40:01Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I completely agree. It's genuine thematic storytelling. And it does also, I think, make Athena coherent in the film. Because throughout the films, Endia crops up at moments of great doubt for Odysseus. Moments when he's made a choice that feels like the wrong choice. And she comes in and she's sort of, she's the skeptical god. You know, she's somebody who's like, is this really what you're going to do in this? Are you not a man who believes in this, this, and this? And then when we see her in this state of vulnerability at the end of the story, you kind of see the way that he has turned himself over to the faithfulness of the gods.

1:40:35Sean Fennessey:and that that is, that's the true code of life. That like the decency that is woven into, and the gods are fractious and they're difficult and they're mercurial, but they do have this kind of like divining, straightforward idea of how to be alive in this time in Greece. And that he subscribes to it. It is his faith. Like it is his, it is the structure of his life. It's his code. And the movie communicates that and in doing so, effectively Penelope realizes like who's back? you know and like what's happened yeah and it sets up this just a truly dramatic realization of his return it's not a simple she could have just slid the doors open but you know there's a moment where what is what what is the sequence where we learn that you can't just re-enter the halls like you have to take it back to to well that's oh isn't it from Agamemnon who says like you know beware don't walk in the front door essentially yes it's Agamemnon's wisdom that he's following and that allows for this family even though you know they've effectively been reunited but they can't reunite in a clean way without there being some sort of attempt to thwart their power and so they set up this elaborate challenge and uh yeah I think this part of the movie is incredible and then the bow pluck and then just everyone going to town.

1:42:02Damon Holland gets in the mix. Yeah.

1:42:05Sean Fennessey:He gets to fight Logan Marshall Green upstairs who's throwing swords through the roof. You know, listen, ingenuity. Yeah, truly. Very old-fashioned battle style of fight movie stuff. There's like a little John Woo in this part of the movie. There's definitely a lot of John Wick. The cutaways to Pattinson being like, get the swords! Get the shields! Like, it's so hokey, but so good like it's so satisfying because you just want him to die so bad and he's doing everything he can to tell people to do his bidding and he's such an unlikable weasel of a character but yeah that moment pays off tremendously well the drums just going the music is crazy harder and harder and you kind of think that like the drums can't get any more intense and then they somehow do sort of like tantric drums it's really really amazing my heart was just racing for the last 20 minutes of this movie through that entire sequence the way that it's edited together the way that it's told.

1:43:00Sean Fennessey:And it's like, I know what's going to happen. That's the great thing. This has happened with a few Nolan movies for me where I'm like, I know what's going to happen and I'm still really, really caught up. And that is a testament to adaptation that you would still be so caught up in how this story plays out. Of course, Odysseus is triumphant. Yeah. He kills everybody and those who he doesn't kill eventually bend the knee to him. They realize their king has returned. And so tell me how you feel about the final moments of the movie. So it's a quick wrap up. I mean, he and Penelope have like the unmasked, you know, walls, modesty wall open reunion, and he presents his Athena pen.

1:43:37So she knows it's really him and he's held on to it this whole time. And, you know, it's very beautiful. And I think they're good. They're very good in it. And he sets up what is a pretty quick denouement and explains what's going to happen, which is that they give Ithaca to Telemachus. and there's a recurring bit in the film of how Odysseus is not properly honoring the dead in the ritual way that Greeks treat a dead body. And he keeps saying, when I'm done, I'll sail west and honor all my men. And so...

1:44:19Sean Fennessey:After he has given Sinan back his shame to Antonus. Yeah. And he is. So he reveals his plan to to Penelope, which is also a callback before he leaves for Troy. She says, let's just, you know, sail west, chase the sun. Beautiful, beautiful sunsets. And so in the end, they are on the boat together, chasing, you know, going west, chasing the sun. and then for some reason they feel the need to gild the lily with the last three lines of the film which are something about how you know men will forget to write or speak or whatever and just like you know previews the dark ages and then Penelope reassures Odysseus that civilization will rise again and then cut to black I thought it was a hopeful note I could not help but think about Christopher Nolan and Emma Thomas leaving the country after a presidential election.

1:45:17Sean Fennessey:That was the vibe that that sailing on the ship was giving me. A little bit of like, I can't fucking deal with whatever's going on over here. I thought everything up until the Dark Ages history lesson and civilization will rise again. If you just cut those two lines of dialogue and just feature them sailing west, I think it is, you know, hopeful, but also they are still leaving home. Like, not everything is rough. There is something. They were going to Boca. You know, they're retiring. heading west. Yeah, but like, you know. They're coming to L.A. But there's something about Civilization Will Rise Again that is also just like the classic Oppenheimer.

1:45:54So a lot of this was my fault, but also not all of it, right? You know, and it's like, it's going to be okay. Yeah, a little bit of the

1:46:00Sean Fennessey:Bruce Wayne and Alfred like cheersing each other from across the tables at the end of the Batman movie. And obviously just, you know, it's terrible dialogue and also so obvious and great meme stuff. I enjoyed it. It didn't bother me. I guess I enjoyed it in that like I'm always looking for some Christopher Nolan moment and I was like there's my guy you did it I thought it was look this is not a subtle film not at all I mean it would defeat the purpose for it to be subtle and I think it's very obvious that one of the reasons he wanted to make it is it feels like he feels like the world is falling apart around him and that human decency is at an all time low and that we treat each other like shit publicly all the time right and you can look back to 3 ,000 years and think about it in the same register.

1:46:46Sean Fennessey:I think the film communicates that much more artfully for the, you know, other three hours of the movie except for that one minute. But nice ship. Nice ship. Yeah. Good take. You know, we've already mentioned most of the actors in Below the Line folks. You know, we haven't spoken about how we saw the film. We saw it in IMAX 70mm at the same theater, the Universal City Walk, which is Nolan's home court, the film, the theater that he likes to go to to screen his films, to see other people's movies. It's one of the great screens in the United States. He's a tall man. I wonder how he fits in those chairs.

1:47:24Sean Fennessey:It's a little bit narrow in the seating. I had a little bit of a tough time when I saw it. Yeah, it's European. I thought he used this scale tremendously well. This is the first film that was entirely shot on IMAX 70 cameras. And they had to build all kinds of technology to accommodate this because those cameras are so big and so loud. They had to build these sound blimps around them so that the actors could do their dialogue, but then they also had to build a mirroring system. So with the blimps, they would obscure the other actors in sequences so that you would have to give your performance looking into a mirror, which looked into another mirror, which then showed you the actor you were speaking to.

1:47:59Sean Fennessey:Fairly complex. You don't feel any of that in the movie. I mean, it is a very well acted movie. It's a big, the acting is big, but when there needs to be moments of intimacy, they are there for sure. Like when Calypso and Damon are in a tent on the beach. It feels... It's very true that you don't see that many shots of the two of them in the same frame speaking to each other. That's true. But you don't miss it. Yes. That's a decision that he's clearly made too. He's not showing... He's just not doing typical coverage. You know, he's not doing that thing where you're like, oh, here's a clear establishing shot of two people and they've just entered the kitchen.

1:48:36Sean Fennessey:He's totally dispensed with that as a filmmaker at this point um we mentioned ludwig goranson um we mentioned jennifer lame uh mentioned ellen mirajnik um the incredible location scouting of this movie and the decision to travel around the world to do it uh ruth de jong is the production designer this is the oppenheimer team yeah this is the people and the tenant team the people who all worked on that movie these are among the best heads of department in all of movies right now. And there's a reason why these last two films especially are so extraordinary, so captivating, because you need people on his level, I think, to help him realize his vision.

1:49:18Sean Fennessey:Like, it really is, when you're working at this scale, this isn't just like some little guy with a good idea in his room. Like, thousands of people worked in this movie.

1:49:29Sean Fennessey:Is there anything else about the script that you want to note? because one thing I'll cite before we get into our Oscars conversation is Christopher Nolan has never won an Academy Award for a screenplay. His first nomination was for a screenplay. Yeah. But he's not won for his writing. And his writing has taken some dings over the years for me especially. I mean, for me in the last five minutes. Yeah. But also, I think it features some of the best writing. I agree. Just on a purely dialogue level. And I think, as we said, as a work of adaptation and being both faithful to one of the most recognizable stories in history, but also infusing not just his own ideas and pet theories about what it means to be a great man or whatever, but just some very resonant commentary about the world that we live in and being able to tie those two things.

1:50:25To me, it's a significant leap in terms of... which, you know, who am I to tell Christopher Nolan, like, good job, you made a leap. This isn't a development talk, but I, like, It's something he's been working towards, though.

1:50:37Sean Fennessey:It's a realization of something that really interests him, obviously. I think it's an incredible accomplishment. Yeah, I agree with you. Is there anything else about the film you want to say? Travis Scott? This film opens with Travis Scott. I mean, it's really funny. It's just very funny. That is really funny. We started giggling. The film is really loud. Yeah. Frequently. It's especially loud in the opening moments of the movie. It does not have the problem that many of his films have where you can't understand the dialogue. I was a little worried about this in the first 10 minutes of the film because there's a lot of, you know, shuttling around the castle in Ithaca.

1:51:09Sean Fennessey:But I found it to be quite legible. It certainly doesn't have the Tenet issue of like you can't understand half of what these people are saying in the movie. Yeah. Well, I think that's purposeful in Tenet because it doesn't matter. You know, just let it flow over you. And this, I think he wants you to know what he's saying. We'll talk about the movie more and the text of the movie on Monday with CR, who's also seen the movie. Spoiler alert, he liked it. Box office. Yeah. It's tracking for a$200 million opening worldwide. I feel like it's going to go above that. Okay. It will make it his highest grossing non-Batman movie opening weekend ever.

1:51:44Okay.

1:51:45Sean Fennessey:Oppenheimer opened at$174 million. I'd just like to say that's fucking insane. Because that was the same weekend as Barbie. Yeah, which obviously was helped by Barbie. They helped each other in a lot of ways. Still, at some point, most people couldn't fit both into one weekend. Yes. This movie, at least in Los Angeles, is screening at all hours of the day, including at 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. There are screenings running in theaters across the city. Who in the booth wants to go at 3 a.m. and report back? Absolutely not. No. Oh, all right. I got a thumbs up from Lucas. Okay. We'll discuss later. I'll obviously be buying your ticket.

1:52:19Sean Fennessey:I mean, there are no tickets for the iMac 70. That's the thing. Everything is sold out. All the screenings are sold out. So, you know, I think there's a conversation to be had about the eventization and also the sort of like the FOMO that is being created around the movie that I think has some real downsides. Do you think this movie is a movie that people see three and four times in theaters? I hope that people who are interested see it twice, at least because you and I both, I think, found a lot more the second time. Very rewarding on the second watch. Yeah. So sure. You know, I don't know how the Nolan heads are going to feel about this.

1:53:00Do you think that they're just going to be in lockstep? My guy, he did it again. Or do you think that there is something?

1:53:07Sean Fennessey:Well, I think the culture war stuff is nonsense. Like, I think that's not, I think that's just internet bullshit. Nobody cares about that. So anybody who's like a hyper conservative, like this isn't my Helen of Troy stuff, I think that doesn't matter. I think general, like, cinephilia Nolan superfans, I think they'll probably love it. Yeah. It's an ancient tale, but it's told in a modern way with extraordinary filmmaking style. And so, with huge stars. You know, like, it's a very, and it's just a very satisfying watch. Like, it's a big old meal of a movie. I totally agree. I do wonder whether the kind of, not the looky-loos, but the people who go to see movies because it's a pop culture event are going to be locked in in the same way?

1:53:50I think so.

1:53:51Sean Fennessey:It's a good question. I think so. And this is a little bit anecdotal. And, you know, speaking with the civilians in my life who are aware of things and they're certainly aware of the press tour. And which is very charming. But and his, I think you do have to do with this cast and with this amount of money on the line. But, you know, if you can watch Matt Damon and Tom Holland in the New York Times cooking kitchen, making gluten-free pizza, then are you racing out in this? Do you feel like you've already participated in some cultural part of it? Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

1:54:27This is an old Matt Bellany point of discussion, which I think is insightful, which is a what point does the...

1:54:34Sean Fennessey:I think this movie is such a spectacle that it transcends that. I completely agree. I just, I do wonder how much of... People who are interested in the movie are really going to go see it. People who are drawn to the star power and the, oh, it's the thing of it all. I can't tell how it's going to convert. Can I ask you guys a question? Do you think word of mouth has never been more important to the box office, say, post-COVID? Because I'm thinking like Mandalorian Grogu comes out, it's horrible, drastically underperforms. Same thing with Supergirl. And conversely, you know, Backrooms Mania, Obsession, it's obviously not a one-to-one, but it's hard for me to imagine people who see this not having it, have great word of mouth.

1:55:16Sean Fennessey:It's an unusual version of that because everyone's already aware of this movie. And I'm sure that word of mouth always matters to films, but it doesn't have the same challenges that a movie like Obsession or Backrooms had where anybody who's normie and not invested in those worlds of horror or the YouTube creepypasta storytelling, it's definitely not going to have a negative effect. I don't think people are going to come out. I mean, it's a massive critical sensation already. I think this is basically his best reviewed movie ever. And we can dovetail that with the Oscars a little bit too because I find this to be such an interesting test case that has effectively never happened before.

1:55:58Sean Fennessey:Maybe one other time in movie history. But to me, I'm asking about the three to four things, Jack, because that's the way to make a movie make a billion or a billion point five dollars. And I don't... It's really long. yeah but that's I want to see it again but I won't be racing out to see it a third time you know I saw Oppenheimer in theaters three times because I felt like I was trying to understand Oppenheimer you know I felt like he was doing something in the first half of that movie that I'd not really seen before and I really flipped for it and the second time I saw it I liked it even more and the third time I saw it I liked it even more than that I guess that's certainly possible for this movie but it's no one's going to be like I fucking hated the Odyssey right?

1:56:43I don't think so though people do always surprise me. That's true. And your reaction after the first screening was interesting to me. I think your esteem went up after the second time.

1:56:53Sean Fennessey:It definitely did. And the things that I was I mean I wasn't crazy about Tom Holland I did feel like it was a little episodic to a fault in act two like that stuff still exists but a lot of the sort of like very intentional structural imagery that is foregrounded in the movie and then that recurs later in the movie. That was the stuff that you were really recommending. I'm like, you can't deny how sophisticated and exciting this kind of filmmaking is. And it rips. Yeah. It just does. It rips. Yeah. When it's going hard, it goes really, really hard. The Academy Awards. I think this movie is locked in 12 categories.

1:57:35Sean Fennessey:Is that crazy? No. That makes perfect sense. Let's go through them. Let's so... And I'm doing... I'm not looking at your doctorate. Okay, so best picture, best director. So that's two. I think best actress. I didn't put any acting categories in. You didn't. Oh, interesting. So if you want it, we can add acting categories as well. Okay, we'll come back to that. So adapted screenplay. Yes. That's three. Cinematography, four. Score, five. Production design, six. Costume design, seven. Editing, eight. Sorry, Jen Lame, for leaving you at number eight. Second Oscar incoming. Okay, so that's eight. What are the other sound?

1:58:11Nine. What other categories? James Blake, original song?

1:58:16Sean Fennessey:I didn't add that, but I thought about it. James Blake and Travis Scott have an original song in the end credits. Yes. That's on the table. Sure. I just, it's so funny. Okay. So I like the use of James Blake's voice in the film too. Something I didn't pick up on the first time around. It's totally great. It just is. It's funny. When you turned to me during the credits, the first time I'm like, is this James Blake? Okay. So. You've got nine. Effects, obviously. Effects is 10. 10. And then, so you have two more non-acting. What are the other, oh, casting. Casting. 11. And what are other categories that I don't say anything, anyone, I'm going through it.

1:58:51We've done music, we've done cinematography, we've done editing, we've done script, we've done sound, costume. So something near and near to your heart. Makeup?

1:59:01Sean Fennessey:Makeup and hairstyling. What? It's not near and dear to my heart. It's just a necessity of the work that I do. Yeah. Well, it matters. That's 12. That's 12 nominations. Not to mention, I do think that there is a Matt Damon, Tom Cruise death war coming for best actor. Now, neither of them may win, but these are two of the most beloved movie stars of the last three decades. Neither of whom have ever won an Acting Academy Award. Yeah, and Damon's on the campaign trail, and I love it. And I think his performance is genuinely special because this is a weird part. it's a reinterpretation of a classic character and he is bringing a lot of his classic charms but also he's got to play a man over long periods of time his physical transformation is unbelievable for a man of his age so he's very worthy it's not just like oh he's the star of the biggest movie of the year that's going to be nominated for best picture it's a great play of Romans is Anne Hathaway running in best actress or supporting I presume supporting I would assume as well although she already has a supporting actress She doesn't have a best actress yet.

2:00:07Sean Fennessey:That's very true. And she's also in many films this year. Right. This is probably the one to honor her for. I would think so as well. Okay, so that is... Any other acting performances on the board? Well, I don't know. I mean, is there a case to be made? The movie's going to be really big, right? If it's insanely big and it becomes a world historic movie that is gunning for 16 nominations, like Holland is going to run. Yeah. Holland is running that's a thing that's gonna happen regardless of whatever my opinion or your opinion is of his performance I think people are gonna come away liking him for the most part in the movie I don't know is there a case for Charlize you know what about Samantha Morton Samantha Morton definitely yeah I mean it's like eight minutes I think Pattinson will run for other films so he's running I agree which is just that's a great time for all of us yeah you know it's nine months from now but whatever I would love to see a campaign for Himish Patel.

2:01:06Sean Fennessey:You know, I think that there's like a lot of performances in the movie that, you know, I don't know if Bernthal's getting an Oscar for this one, but I enjoy the energy that he brought to the movie. And so I guess what I'm saying is if you take these 12 nominations, maybe they're not all locked. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think that they are. And then you add four acting nominations on top. 16. That's the record. Okay. Great. Will it happen? I think nominations seems pretty likely. I mean, just we are always befuddled at this point in the Oscar season, which is, you know, the entire year now. But midsummer, we're always kind of scratching our heads being like, so where are all the, you know, where are all the pieces going to fall and what's going to happen?

2:01:48And why isn't this film at Telluride and this film at Venice? But I think this is just absolutely colossal. and is as good in all the different categories as Oppenheimer was. So nominations, yes. Wins?

2:02:06Sean Fennessey:No director has ever had best picture and best director in consecutive films. Francis Ford Coppola, The Godfather won best picture and The Godfather 2 won best picture, but he did not win best director for The Godfather. Bob Fosse won that year. He won for The Godfather part two. And you want to take that Oscar from Bob Fosse. No. I love Cabaret. I think it's a wonderful movie. Do I think Francis Ford Coppola should have won? You know. There's a discussion. John Borman directed Deliverance that year. All right. There's a discussion. Okay. Can Nolan do this? Forget that. Will he do it? Will he do it?

2:02:46So who else is going to be in director? Because Best Picture seems a lot easier to me. And you could see a split, even though we haven't had that many splits in recent years or the last couple years anyway which is as far back as you can go predictably with the Oscars at the rate at which they are changing.

2:03:04Sean Fennessey:Good point. So, but you know. Denis Villeneuve is going to be up there. Exactly. Christian Mongeau is going to be up there. After that, I don't know. Yeah. Alejandro Gonzalez-Ineritu is an Oscar favorite. That's true. That seems very plausible. Any women making movies this year? Nope. They decided against it. Yep. Thanks so much, guys. You guys had a meeting, it sounds like. Yeah. You said no movies for us. We're going to work on our threading. I don't know. Are there any female contenders? I mean, Greta was making a movie and then she wasn't. It's coming out next year. She is, but it's coming out for Easter.

2:03:44Well, I guess for Valentine's Day and then for Easter. I don't know. Exciting. Yikes. I love her forever. She's my number one. Except for Sophia, who's also my number one. No, I can't think of any. Speaking of polyamory.

2:04:01Sean Fennessey:I... I think it's going to win both right now. I mean, I haven't seen 60 % of the movies. That's exciting. For Oscars. That's good. So remember this. Okay. Do we need to like tape it up on the wall so you don't F1 yourself? You make sure I don't F1 myself? I'll be on top of it. I have tried every single time. Jack, what'd you think of the movie? I thought it was following, as I told you, the opening 15 minutes, which I thought was really a dreadful exposition slug. Just absolutely levitating. Truly, truly amazing. I think movie lovers are really going to love it. Yeah. It is the total package as far as going to the movies.

2:04:40Sean Fennessey:Do you think it's going to make a billion dollars? Yeah. I agree. I do. I think it's interesting that Spider-Man comes two weeks later. They're not exactly the same audience, but they're pretty close. And both of those movies can't hold all the premium format screens at the same time. you know this isn't like Project Hail Mary which got like the run of show for a very long stretch but I do I think the number one thing that it has going for it this is probably the best way to end this conversation is it's a Christopher Nolan movie he is in a class of his own in terms of marketing the movie against his name he's a draw he's a draw that is bigger than Marvel now straight up he matters more to movies than any IP?

2:05:31Sean Fennessey:Is there any IP that is more powerful than Christopher Nolan's name? I mean, I guess if you want to say Spider-Man or Batman, maybe? Yeah. I mean, this movie's going to make more than the Batman or the Batman Part 2. Right, which is never coming out, so. Right. Minecraft versus Christopher Nolan. Yeah, I mean, that's a fairly new entrant, right? We'll see with Minecraft 2, but, and there's all this new stuff coming up, obviously, and we're mindful of that. Super Mario. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's just the consistency. Like, let's circle back on the fifth Super Mario movie. I don't think we need to.

2:06:04I think we're done.

2:06:06Sean Fennessey:They're going to make more. I mean, I know they're going to make more, but I think we know. Got to get Yoshi in the mix, you know? Yoshi was in the mix. He didn't do anything. Yeah, we're going to get Wario in the mix. Okay. What did you think of our conversation about everybody's Warios? I was going to say, have you figured out who my Wario is? No, but I'd like to ask the listeners of this show. Okay. Well, I think some people will find you to be the Wario of other people. Are you comfortable with that? Well, you have already given me the greatest compliment you've ever given me. That you're Anne Hathaway's Wario.

2:06:29Sean Fennessey:Which I just like absolutely accept. It's like the nicest thing I've ever said. But have you looked at a photograph of Wario? I still don't care. You know, I'm in the same sentence as Anne Hathaway. It's like a Daily Mail tabloid, but positive, you know, where they just try to get you. You just want to get someone in the sentence with whatever scandal. You got me in the sentence with Anne Hathaway. I should correct a photograph of Wario because he's not a real person. So he's never been photographed. Have you seen an illustration of Wario? I googled it. Okay. You know, I'm turning 42. what can you do wow birthday weeks yeah birthday weeks upcoming it's pretty exciting yeah we got the odyssey for us that's it I think what we'll do on Monday is certainly want to hear Chris's thoughts at length of the movie I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to see it again I don't know I'd like to because I do feel like more will be revealed the more times you take a look and then we're going to rank the Nolan movies and I think we might have to just do two separate rankings I think you and Chris can work together and be the normal Nolan people.

2:07:29Sean Fennessey:And then I'll do whatever journey I'm on with trying to figure out how I feel about his movies. Okay. That seems fair, right? Like, so you guys don't have to be poisoned by the takes of mine that you don't agree with? I don't think that that's in the spirit of this podcast. It's not. Or the future content and material. You want to broker with me about... Well, brokering with Chris over Inception is tough. Brokering with me over Inception is tough. Yeah. But, you know, you just don't listen. But I like Interstellar more than you do. Yeah, that's all your dad stuff. What dad stuff? What? I love being a dad.

2:08:05Sean Fennessey:Sure. I love being a son. That's really beautiful. Thank you. Thanks for saying that. This is a movie about a dad and his son. Yeah. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his production work on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for work behind the scenes. We'll see you next week. Go see The Odyssey.

2:08:28Thank you.