The Oscars Snubs Draft. Plus: ‘Sirāt’!

8:37Sean Fennessey:Mike Dipe? Yeah. And he was just like, that was unprompted by anything. Incidentally,

8:40Katey Rich:is it Wednesday? Were we recording on Wednesday? SD Kid, the rapper from Liverpool that some people think is Timothee Chalamet is performing at Echoplex in LA and it's like$500 ticket because people think Timmy will be there.

8:54Amanda Dobbins:Oh, interesting.

8:56Katey Rich:You going? No, I have a live show. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Excuse us. Jeez. You're opening for SD Kid? Is Timmy going to be a live show? I am SD Kid.

9:05Sean Fennessey:I am a Liverpoolian rapper Were there any major snubs this year that we felt like were unforgivable?

9:13Chris Ryan:I've been so deep in snubs from every year. Do you want to define snub for us?

9:17Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, yeah.

9:17Chris Ryan:What is a snub?

9:18Amanda Dobbins:Oh, here we go.

9:20Sean Fennessey:Well, honestly, I don't know. I don't know that it's a useful word.

9:23Amanda Dobbins:That's not the breakout clip we were looking for.

9:26Sean Fennessey:Well, I don't operate that way. You know, I think there is complexity in all of these concepts. You know, Mark Harris, longtime Oscar pundit author, has famously for years been saying There's no such thing as a snub, but that's not how this works. And I've never really agreed with that point of view. I do think that, for example, Amanda Seyfried not getting in over Kate Hudson to me, I find hard to accept. Like from a purely emotional and analytical perspective, it's just a much bigger and more interesting performance, in my opinion. Subjective. Snubs are subjective, you know, and that's kind of how this works.

9:58But over time, the body tends to recognize greatness.

10:03Sean Fennessey:and a lot of the movies and performances that we'll talk about throughout this draft, there's not a lot of controversy around the greatness of 2001 A Space Odyssey, for example. You might not like it, but it has been acclaimed and affirmed as a masterpiece. So a movie like that, I think rises very clearly to the level of snub. But that's not a specific definition. It's just kind of a gut feeling that I have. I don't know.

10:27Joanna Robinson:I think you can only have distance to understand a snub. That's what I think, which I think is what's so interesting about what we're going to do today. But Katie and I, a couple months ago, whenever that was, we went back through sort of like the last 10 years of Best Picture Wins. And we were just looking at like, what do we think should have won? And that was a really fun exercise because, you know, with some distance, you can say what the movie of that year was and how it's resonating, you know, down the line of history. I don't think Anora is going to be the movie of that year. I don't think we yet know exactly what the movie of that year is, you know.

10:57Joanna Robinson:So that's why I like what we're doing because we can go back as far as we want into Oscar history to look at why massive famous directors never got an Oscar win and rectify it here today on this podcast.

11:11Chris Ryan:Or why actors win for a performance that you look at, you're like, no one cares about the movie. Nobody remembers it. But they were in the press and they were doing interviews in an interesting way.

11:18Katey Rich:And it was a make good for other ones. Oh, yeah. We're going to definitely talk about makeup wins.

11:21Chris Ryan:It's always interesting to me why things happen, even if it's not the right thing. That's why I love the Oscars, even when they get it wrong. And that's what so much of this is going to be. So the story behind it from that moment is totally fascinating, even if it's not the right win at all.

11:34Sean Fennessey:What do you think?

11:35Amanda Dobbins:I mean, I do think Joe's right that some of it is historical and then some of it is also a response to the fact that this is an industry now. And so a snub is a very real thing, in my opinion, because we spend so much time talking about who will and won't be nominated. And there is more and more attention paid to predictions and betting markets and all sorts of things. And then you wake up and someone doesn't get the phone call on Oscar morning. And so there is that real feeling, I think, and entire businesses are oriented around, oh, I thought we had this or I thought this person was going to be in.

12:05Amanda Dobbins:Chase Infinity would have been my pick. I was thinking Paul Meskel this year. Yeah, Kate Hudson in that best actress spot. But it's it's someone who was present and who has been in the conversation and then suddenly was not. And, you know, and I guess in the in the present tense, that's based on, you know, for your consideration in the industry. And then to Joe's point, historically, it's the movies that are in the conversation because we still talk about them.

12:29Sean Fennessey:Right. Chris, you're not as Oscar-pilled as the four of us. I'm not, no.

12:32Katey Rich:But it was a really interesting exercise to go back through Oscar history and both see how far back, you know, historical disappointments reach beyond like Harvey Weinstein and stuff like that. Like it's like it goes all the way back to pretty much the inception of the award. So it was really cool to look and be like, oh, man, like I can't believe this didn't get nominated. I can't believe this didn't win. You have two different categories, like two different styles of category here that I think is worth noting in the outset of this conversation. One is we're going to do a bunch of best pictures that are about nominees that didn't win that we feel like were snubbed and some that are, then we have best pictures that we feel like should have been nominated that were, we do the same for the performers or similar to the performers.

13:15Katey Rich:You want to talk about all the ornate rules

13:17Sean Fennessey:that have been designed?

13:18Katey Rich:I think you should talk about it because this is your architect from the Matrix moment And I want to see if you've walled yourself in with your own stacks of DVDs and can't see over the piles.

13:29Sean Fennessey:First of all, this is I was born to do this.

13:32Katey Rich:And it became a little annoying, you know, the more the more that we all had to, like, consult the great Oracle.

13:38Amanda Dobbins:This is the longest text message thread ever of questions about the rules.

13:42Joanna Robinson:Yeah. And I think your feelings are already hurt.

13:46Sean Fennessey:I feel like I've done it. I feel like the Wizard of Oz has arrived.

13:50Joanna Robinson:There were a couple of times where you're like, is this too hard? And we're like, no, no, no, we can do this. But then also there are some questions I didn't ask. I was like, you've asked nine questions in a row. I think that's as many questions as you get.

13:59Sean Fennessey:And honestly, the fuck ups and the mishaps are part of the fun, too. Basically, what I wrote through, how did I select the categories? It was more of like an emotional clarification around my thinking around this exercise. All of the questions that you guys asked, all of which were very good, were really more practical. We're like, how are we going to do this? so I think I'll just go through what I set up and then you guys can talk about the things that you were like but this, but this, but this all of which I think the audience at home needs to understand so that they can follow along as we play the game feel?

14:29Sean Fennessey:Yeah Okay so we want to represent films that didn't get nominated at all as well as nominees that were brutally overlooked that can happen in both of the types of categories that we have selected here and Katie has been pushing on that and I think that that makes a lot of sense also it's impossible to limit our pool beyond decades or centuries so we are relying on each other to narrativize our picks and explain why the snub was so egregious in the moment. And for me, at least, I'm curious what ramifications it had for future Academy Awards. So a lot of times when a film or a performance wins, there's a big ripple effect through history around future victories for other actors and actresses, something I'm fascinated by.

15:03Sean Fennessey:And then when selecting, you must choose both the film that was snubbed and the film you would replace it with in the nomination categories. In the winner categories, it's assumed it would replace the winner, but be prepared to discuss what the winner was in the category and why it did not deserve the win. Now, in terms of the rules of engagement, if you take a movie from a specific year or a performance from a specific year, that year is then completely off the board. So that makes this a very challenging game. You pointed out that means because we have seven categories, we will have 49 different years of Oscar history represented here.

15:39Joanna Robinson:I think I did bad math. 35 years, right? 35. Sorry.

15:42Sean Fennessey:Seven times five.

15:42Joanna Robinson:No one responded to that. I was like, oh, it's because my math is bad. Sorry, 35.

15:46Sean Fennessey:Clearly mine was as well because I didn't double check that. So 35 years across the 90 plus years of Oscar history, which is a lot, but not so many. Are you daunted by that? No.

15:56Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. Good job. I don't think so. Yeah. It's okay. I mean, it's a lot of movies.

16:00Katey Rich:Well, you know, there's another restriction that I kind of added to this for myself, which is not one I expect everybody to. But for the nominee snubs, so for things that were not even nominated, I tried to keep it like I could make an argument that this plausibly could have or should have been nominated. Yeah. So I'm not doing like, yes. You know, why didn't, why didn't Gina Carano get nominated for Haywire or something like that? Did she though? Yeah.

16:27Chris Ryan:We can live with that one. I'll just say Mandalorian fell off since she left,

16:32Amanda Dobbins:you know, like. I did also find myself, there were a few where I, especially in the winner categories where I was like, I can't actually take the Oscar away from the winner. Oh, okay. That's interesting. In the real year. Like, I can't make that argument. Or, you know, I don't think that's good for history of the world. And so I didn't put it down. That happened a couple times.

16:54Katey Rich:I have two that I think I'm going to be pressed to make the argument for. But I believe in it.

17:00Sean Fennessey:Again, this is a subjective game. If there's not a holistic total truth about even good Oscar wins, they can be upended or undermined. And we should do that. I think it's more fun if we do.

17:10Chris Ryan:How do you guys feel about the winners from the 30s and 40s that you may or may not have seen? And there's a whole bunch of other things you might not have seen. And there's something you want to make the case for. Do we feel okay just taking away the Oscar from someone whose movie we haven't seen? I intend to do it today. Just making sure. It is on my board.

17:30Sean Fennessey:Okay, here are the seven categories. Best Picture nominee snub, 20th century. so that means these are all movies that did not make it into Best Picture that we believe should have gone in Best Picture nominee snub 21st century obviously a much smaller pool to pull from there Best Picture winner snub now in this category and in all winner categories like I said you can choose something that was not nominated I'm personally not going to be doing that but anything that's on the board that recently could have been nominated in one I think is reasonable does that make sense to you? Yeah because we have

18:00Chris Ryan:the nomination categories also for pictures so it makes sense to split them

18:03Sean Fennessey:Best Actor winner snub best actress winner snub best director winner snub and wild card. What's wild card? Any category. Anything that somehow

18:11Katey Rich:didn't get drafted.

18:12Sean Fennessey:Doesn't have to be from those six that we set up. Could be sound design. Oh. If you wanted it to be.

18:18Chris Ryan:Shit.

18:19Joanna Robinson:Got some strong sound design opinions I've been waiting for a chance to get out.

18:22Katey Rich:Yeah. You got it.

18:23Joanna Robinson:Can you do it from any like a defunct category that no longer exists? I think so. Are you going to do like black and white photography? Sure.

18:29Sean Fennessey:Obviously. You know me. Best young performer. There have been some interesting ones that they've eradicated. back then. That's it. How does that sound? That sounds good. Any other questions?

18:40Katey Rich:I think I might need to use my computer.

18:43Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

18:43Katey Rich:Yeah, so I'm going to try it. Did you get thrown off by wild card? No, but I just think I'm going to need to like as things get taken off the board, I do think I'm going to need to have a little bit more.

18:51Sean Fennessey:While you're getting it, let's vamp because I asked Amanda what superpower she wants to have on the previous episode and I want to know what Katie and Joanne are going to say about the answer.

18:59Amanda Dobbins:Wait, wait. Oh, you've already answered that. Well, no, it wasn't what superpower. It was more specific. You were like,

19:04Sean Fennessey:I don't want to be a shapeshifter. I'm into invisibility, teleportation, mind control.

19:09Amanda Dobbins:We were talking about mutants or something. Why were we talking about that?

19:11Sean Fennessey:Well, just we talk about mutants on the show. It's like something we do. Maybe. Why are we talking about movies? It's a part of the show.

19:18Amanda Dobbins:But it was also about aliens. I don't, it wasn't an X-Men thing.

19:21Sean Fennessey:It was. We were talking about the New Mutants. The film, the New Mutants. We were talking about the gap of time.

19:26Amanda Dobbins:You were talking about the film,

19:26Joanna Robinson:the New Mutants?

19:27Sean Fennessey:We were. Because we were talking about this 11 months that we're living inside of between superhero movies is the longest stretch of time I learned since the period between 1998 and 2000. The longest stretch where we haven't had a superhero movie.

19:39Chris Ryan:Wait, Joanna, that's news to you too? I would have thought you were on top of this. Oh, you would have thought. I was like, I haven't been talking to Joanna enough. I don't know this.

19:47Joanna Robinson:There's like two Game of Thrones shows this year. Like, we got plenty to piece on.

19:51Chris Ryan:Katie, what's your superpower? I think it's teleportation. It's like, and it's such a boring grown up thing, but like, I don't live in LA. I come here a lot from work. I just, the ability to just be somewhere. Teleportation in LA. Even if you're trying to get across town, if you're trying to pick your kid up how often are you like late to pick your kid up and like shit if I can just be there right now it's so useful it's a good call

20:09Sean Fennessey:Joanna what do you think

20:10Joanna Robinson:it's the same but like more in the vein of like world travel you're super fun you're gonna use your power for good that's true

20:16Katey Rich:I don't have a kid

20:17Amanda Dobbins:to pick up from daycare like super power yeah what do you want that's all that's holding

20:20Katey Rich:I'd like to be Michael Mann that's my super power are you sure that's super super man with two N's nice I like that wow you know it's all of them are are poison chalices, you know, because all of our favorite mutants, they're like my great power, but my great frailty. So.

20:38Chris Ryan:Wow. I have a hard time to do that. I really like, I just feel like I could nail it. Yeah.

20:43Amanda Dobbins:Well, I probably expectation, right? Then it's something like, well, I definitely think that you can be in this meeting and also, and the class mom and also in Europe. What was Cable's power?

20:54Sean Fennessey:I know. I think you had a giant gun. DT time travel. Time travel. I want to be Cable. Do you want to be Cable? I love that.

21:02Joanna Robinson:I want to see the fan art right now of CR as Cable.

21:06Sean Fennessey:Wow. That is achievable. That is very achievable. CR heads, you have your assignment. Okay. I think we should set a draft order. Jack?

21:16Katey Rich:Crucial here.

21:16Amanda Dobbins:I know.

21:17Sean Fennessey:Here we go.

21:20Amanda Dobbins:Oh, this is exciting. Two just flew out.

21:22Katey Rich:I don't know if you saw that. Two what? Two of your names. So I'm going to grab one from my lap. Is it a bowl with our names in it? Yeah. It's a Dungeons and Dragons die.

21:29Chris Ryan:I keep hearing about the Dungeons & Dragons guy, but I couldn't really picture it.

21:32Katey Rich:Oh, well, maybe the Dungeons & Dragons are coming through because with the first overall pick is Joanna Robinson. Wow.

21:39Amanda Dobbins:Exciting. Congratulations.

21:41Katey Rich:Drafting second, Amanda Dobbins. Wow.

21:44Amanda Dobbins:Okay. At least it's not last. I've had the turn so many times.

21:47Katey Rich:You guys feel like the draft order is crucial for this one? I feel like there are so many options. Like, is there a clear? There are so many options, but there are like five at the top that you really want to get.

21:59Chris Ryan:I guess it's one for you guys. I have a hard time not feeling like we're just making a list of the best ones, but I want the best ones, right? Someone's going to like, but I was listening to you on the hype draft. I was like, I just want what I care about. I don't care.

22:10Sean Fennessey:There's some things that I think will just be cool to have that are interesting to me. And then there's, for you and I, there's like five or six that we can't stop talking about.

22:19Amanda Dobbins:And the year of it all, there are like a few years that are going to go pretty fast. So that's the issue.

22:25Katey Rich:Drafting third is Chris Ryan, fourth Sean Fennessey, fifth Katie. Oh, Katie on the turn. Are you ready for this?

22:31Sean Fennessey:Do you understand what the turn is?

22:33Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. Okay. But you have to wait.

22:34Sean Fennessey:This will be in snake fashion.

22:35Amanda Dobbins:Okay. You like snake fashion? I do like snake fashion.

22:38Sean Fennessey:Thanks. Well, the moment of truth.

22:42Joanna Robinson:Yeah. I think there's only one first choice. Okay. Oh, wow. Do you disagree?

22:48Sean Fennessey:I think there are two. I think there are two really strong first contenders.

22:52Amanda Dobbins:Okay. Okay. But I think that is also a little bit on personal preference. You know? For sure. So maybe, you know.

22:58Sean Fennessey:For sure. I'm very curious to hear what you do. Okay, well, I think in best picture win snub,

23:08Joanna Robinson:I'm taking Mad Max Fury Road off the table. Wow. You guys don't think that's the number one fix. I did not. Definitely not. So what year is that? That is 2015 off the table. Okay. Yeah, and that's not thinking strategically of like who else can I knock off the table.

23:22Sean Fennessey:Damn, I had a really good wild card for 2015. I had a really good 2015 too.

23:26Amanda Dobbins:Was yours also Ray Fides from Bigger Splash? It wasn't. Well, that was going to be a fun one. That's a really good one. Goodbye. Delete from Wildcard. Okay.

23:34Sean Fennessey:It was going to be Carol Best Picture nominee. Okay.

23:37Joanna Robinson:That's a great one. That's good. And look at the damage I did. Great for me. All right. Well, speak on it. Not Max Fury Road. I think when Katie and I were looking back with Love and Respect to Spotlight. I guess you just all of it respect to Spotlight.

23:49Katey Rich:Journalism under assault.

23:51Joanna Robinson:It's not about journalism. It's about the post-apocalypse now, Chris. That's the reality.

23:54Katey Rich:I cannot wait for Marty Baron to weigh in on your face.

23:57Joanna Robinson:What feels more resonant, guzzoline or journalism? Right now it's guzzoline. They're intertwined. That's true. I think that this is a year where, this is before, post-Dark Knight, we are trying to show that we are hip to genre, but it is before a bigger pivot to we are actually honoring genre in the top categories move that the Academy made. So Mad Max Fury Road won a bunch, like all these below the line awards. But I remember the conversation that year was just sort of like, but no way it's going to win Best Picture. And I think if this were to happen again, it would definitely be a different conversation.

24:37Joanna Robinson:You know what I mean?

24:37Sean Fennessey:I think this is in the kind of the blood of the Sinners conversation. This is a real true blue genre movie with a crazy freak out ending. And stuff like that, I mean, through the first 75 years of the Oscars had no chance. And now, you know, it's changing.

24:52Joanna Robinson:Exactly. After like everything, everyone all at once and and et cetera. And so I think that Mad Max Fury Road as a movie that almost everyone acknowledges is an absolute classic that worked despite itself and and has an incredible book written about it that a lot of people like most people who love film has have read Kyle Buchanan's book. So like if you're a film that the gen pop loves and film scholars study, you deserve to have won the best picture that year. So that is my pick.

25:23Katey Rich:It's a tough one for CR.

25:24Sean Fennessey:Big spotlight head.

25:25Katey Rich:No, I'm excited. This is this is a good like I would love to have picked that. It was not in like my upper upper like blue blue ribbon. Like I have to get this. This is a really good way to start.

25:37Amanda Dobbins:I'm up.

25:38Katey Rich:You're up.

25:38Amanda Dobbins:So we can talk about strategy here. I've learned over the years, if you really want something, if something's important to you, you got to take it, even though that means in my case, I'm leaving 2007 on the board. I'm leaving 76 on the board. I, in 2010, also in Best Picture nominee snub, I mean, winner snub, will be taking The Social Network, which to me is one of the great miscarriage of Oscar justices of our lifetime. And this is still my favorite David Fincher movie. Certainly my favorite Aaron Sorkin movie. It was our number one on 25 for 25. And it lost to the King's Beach. Like, I don't know what you say.

26:20Amanda Dobbins:It lost to a Tom Hooper movie. So, and yeah, I like Colin Firth as much as The Next Woman. I just, this was insane. And David Fincher doesn't have an Oscar. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? So that's my pick. Thank you so much.

26:38Chris Ryan:You guys just picked two movies that are like classic old Oscars, like what the Oscars were before they expanded the Academy. I think that the Mad Max year is an Oscar so white year. Like it really those like the last two of the like, come on, guys, we can't really keep doing this anymore. And now it's different.

26:51Joanna Robinson:And with the King speech, like Colin, he won as it felt like a make good to me in my heart for a single man for losing for a single man. And so I'm happy with his win. But that movie did not need to win. I know what I mean.

27:04Sean Fennessey:The Tom Hooper win is arguably worse. I mean, that's that's an abominable. in Oscar history. The King's Speech is a perfectly fine movie that has been villainized because it lost, it won in this race.

27:14Amanda Dobbins:And because of the Weinstein

27:15Sean Fennessey:of it all. Right, sure. And the tactics by which it won the race. But yeah, that to me, I thought for our purposes that that was the number one overall pick. For big pick, of course. But actually it makes complete sense based on your passions and history that you would go Mad Max Fury Road. Okay. CR, you're at number three. You've heard two passionate 2010s selections. Yeah.

27:38Joanna Robinson:Are you taking this to 1930s?

27:39Katey Rich:No, not yet. I think I'm going to do for best picture winner snub, I'm going to do 1990 and I'm going to take Goodfellas over Dances with Wolves. This is a really difficult choice because there's a couple here, especially in this era that I'd like to correct. But this is the most egregious one. Now, obviously, from personal bias, Goodfellas is one of my favorite films ever made. But I think history has proven that like this is a much more significant piece of cinema and a much more much larger pop culture footprint than dances as wolves which is not even that bad of a movie but it's like a classic like great man great you know great effort on one man's part costner directing himself goodfellas is just like a flat out five star watch it 400 times masterpiece and And the fact that Scorsese had to wait, what, 20 more years to get his Oscar for Departed?

28:35Katey Rich:16. 16. Yeah. It's just ridiculous. So I'll take Goodfellas.

28:39Chris Ryan:Can I ask a procedural question? Yeah. So we were saying before that if I pick Scorsese losing for Goodfellas, then someone else isn't going to be able to draft him for Taxi Driver or something. Do we say that for movies too? Like, we're not doing another Fincher movie. We're not doing another Scorsese movie? Or does that - Oh, interesting. I don't think so. Okay. It seems too hard to me. Yeah. Yeah. I think for actor, yes.

28:57Sean Fennessey:But for filmmaker, no. Also because the filmmaker doesn't get the best picture win.

29:01Joanna Robinson:That's true. Goodfellas is off the board. But Martin Scorsese is not. But Martin Scorsese is not. The 90s is off the board. Which is good.

29:09Amanda Dobbins:You saved me from doing a very trolly thing of taking Julia Roberts for Pretty Woman in 1990. Which I was never going to do because I also believe that Goodfellas is like the greater injustice. But I did just delete it.

29:20Sean Fennessey:That would have been funny. Yeah.

29:22Amanda Dobbins:Well, but listen. It had very low likelihood of happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I also like that's one of the things where I was talking about where even some of my picks and doing like Amanda shit like my heart isn't really in that one.

29:33Sean Fennessey:I think if you can only be room for it in certain if you can only have one pick from 1990.

29:39Amanda Dobbins:It's got to be Goodfellas or Scorsese.

29:41Joanna Robinson:There's also like as as I think about it as this like fixing history. Julia Roberts has her Oscar. You know what I mean? Like that's how I approached a lot of.

29:49Amanda Dobbins:She's good in Brockovich and I love that dress.

29:51Sean Fennessey:I did the opposite. OK. In a lot of cases, I was like, this person got their Oscar too late. For the wrong movie. Okay. And so I'm going to try to work backwards to fix that.

30:00Chris Ryan:Did you think time travel is your superpower? Because that feels like which one's true.

30:03Sean Fennessey:I would like to control time and space. Is that on the board? Is that something? In this room, I think it is. That's what the Infinity Gems are about, right? That's what you're Thanos. I don't need a power. I need a glove. Okay. That's what I need.

30:13Joanna Robinson:Okay, Thanos it is. So I'm looking for Chris Ryan as Cable fan art and Sean Fenasia as Thanos.

30:20Sean Fennessey:I mean, long-time listeners of the show know Thanos is my guy.

30:22Joanna Robinson:And then just a trio of teleporters over here.

30:25Katey Rich:Going to the beach. Yeah. Going downtown. Going to the beach. Going downtown.

30:29Sean Fennessey:It sounds great. It's really interesting that the three picks have been best picture winners because that is the place where like our mind goes when we think of snubs, right? We think of, and I don't even, it's really more injustice or travesties. You know, years ago at Grantland, we did a bracket, a whole week of Oscar travesties. One of my first, that was sort of the origin, I think, of whatever the fuck this show is. and there are a handful there are a handful of brutal travesties I think especially the last two or two that in my mind are egregious not yours Joanna I don't think it's egregious because I think spotlight people have a warm feeling about and not that they don't have a warm feeling towards Dances of the Wolves I feel like people do still kind of like that movie but they've taken on more villainous personas personas.

31:18Sean Fennessey:I'm just going to go with, I think, maybe the worst win of all time for Best Picture winner, which is Brokeback Mountain Over Crash. And it's a little bit of a chalk pick, and it kind of doesn't really necessitate a huge explanation, but it is a bizarre win. It's a year where there was a split, where Ang Lee did win Best Director. This takes 2005 off the board, by the way.

31:42Amanda Dobbins:Deleting the squid and the whale from Best Nominee stuff. tough one well

31:47Sean Fennessey:you know obviously Ang Lee's movie is beautiful and Paul Haggis' movie is kind of incoherent as you and Van explored on the rewatchables it is kind of an amusing how the fuck did this happen revisit but

32:00Joanna Robinson:well we were fixing racism and we did it and we did fix it we did it we did fix it

32:03Sean Fennessey:because we got Green Book 13 years later and it fixed it so thanks to them there are other ones that I think I maybe feel a little bit more personally passionate about about movies that I wish would have won. But I think that this is the snub of snubs in my mind. Okay. Katie, you've got two picks.

32:22Chris Ryan:I know. And I feel like all these new paths I've had in my mind of where I can go. Now it's actually coming down to making some choices. I still think none of you have done the best picture snub that I thought was going to happen. And this is going to be in nominations for me. But it's do the right thing.

32:36Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

32:37Chris Ryan:In 1989.

32:38Joanna Robinson:Taking 89 off the board is tough for me.

32:40Chris Ryan:I don't think that you can do another one for 89. You can't.

32:44Amanda Dobbins:Even though like I have Do the Right Thing instead of When Harry Met Sally, even though When Harry Met Sally is also, but it's another one where the Do the Right Thing is like, is probably the other great travesty. It's tough.

32:58Joanna Robinson:It's tough for my Spike Lee and director hosts, but that's okay.

33:01Chris Ryan:I know. It's tough for that. Like I've made a case at one point for Fight the Power, an original song as being an all time snub. Like that would be a fun one. But again, the fact that like that.

33:09Sean Fennessey:But you're good with Danny Aiella being the only acting. I think that makes sense.

33:12Chris Ryan:I think that was right and true. and history has worn it out. The fact that it repeats itself again later on when you've got Green Book, the same year as Black Klansman, the fact that Spike Lee really has done a lot to kind of call out the Oscars for their one spots. Like, you know, the Oscars to White movement, the International Academy happened beyond him, but he's been pushing that boulder up a hill for a long time. We may have a chance to talk about other major Spike Lee snubs at the Oscars, but I do think Do the Right Thing is kind of the be-all end-all.

33:37Sean Fennessey:There's that amazing red carpet moment from 2018 where he's asked about Green Book on the red carpet and he kind of like looks into the camera. and he's like now I come to you and then he like kind of runs away laughing maniacally

33:48Joanna Robinson:because the interviewer was British that was at the VF Oscar party yeah if you remember

33:52Chris Ryan:if I was through that you're not okay Katie

33:54Sean Fennessey:you've got another pick okay so Sean

33:56Chris Ryan:I feel like I'm going to jump ahead to what you were trying to do in terms of the fixing history aspect of this because I didn't really follow what you were doing and I feel there's a lot of people who were not even nominated in some of these acting categories that I wanted to make the case for but then I came across a way to fix history completely and I want to throw this out there and I'm nervous Just about taking this year off the board because you guys are going to have thought of something I haven't done. But I'm going to 1974. If you give Jack Nicholson Best Actor for Chinatown. He loses that year to Art Carney and Harry and Tonto, a movie I have not seen and know very little about.

34:26Chris Ryan:It's about a cat, which is up my alley. I want to give all due respect to Art Carney. It's a nice film. It does seem like a nice film and everyone liked him. And it was a real kind of win we've seen a lot of time where someone who you've liked a while gets his moment out there. So Jack Nicholson wins for Chinatown. Then maybe say he doesn't win the next year for Cuckoo's Nest. He might have. It might have just been a double up. But if he doesn't win for Cuckoo's Nest the next year, then Pacino can win for Dog Day Afternoon, which is the same year in 75. And then if Pacino wins for Dog Day Afternoon, you get to 1992.

34:53Chris Ryan:He doesn't need his makeup Oscar and Denzel Washington can win for Malcolm X. Wow. I fixed it.

34:58Sean Fennessey:Hold on. We're not done yet. So I have this exact same idea. He does.

35:02Amanda Dobbins:But you guys are going, you're doing Nicholson over Pacino.

35:06Sean Fennessey:So here's what I did. Okay.

35:08Amanda Dobbins:All right.

35:08Sean Fennessey:I did 1973 and 1974. I didn't take an Oscar away from Art Carney. I took an Oscar who only had one. I took an Oscar away from Jack Lemmon, who already had one. Jack Lemmon won in 73 for Save the Tiger. If you take that away and give it to Jack Nicholson for the last detail, arguably his best performance, then you don't need Nicholson to win in 75. And you get to do a Katie delineated, which is you give to Pacino for Dog Day Afternoon. Then you don't have to wait until 1992. In 1992, you give Malcolm X Denzel's win there, which is one of the great Oscar snubs of all time. Then that means that you don't have to give Denzel in 2001 the Training Day Oscar, which is a fine Oscar, but is a real makeup.

35:46Sean Fennessey:Then that means that Will Smith can win that year for Ali, which then means Will Smith does not have to win for King Richard, which means the slap never happens.

35:55Katey Rich:But who cares if the slap happens? I don't care. It's just a great one in. He could have died.

36:01Amanda Dobbins:He could have killed him. There would have been no pressure that night for Will Smith. What do you mean?

36:06Joanna Robinson:I'd like to litigate all of this just in the sense of... It doesn't count. These are fun what-ifs, but it doesn't...

36:12Katey Rich:It's also an interesting idea that once you win one, you're off the board.

36:17Amanda Dobbins:Which is not true. I'm giving Pacino the Oscar for Godfather 2 every single time. He's amazing.

36:22Sean Fennessey:Well, you're not in this draft because he was off 1974.

36:25Amanda Dobbins:If I'm changing 1974, I think if I have to pick a single greatest screen performance ever, it might be Pacino in Godfather 2. That is incredible. but I mean you know Nicholson's it could be Serpico he's really good in that too but anyway there I'm deleting it delete

36:44Sean Fennessey:this to me was the most fun of this draft I'm glad that we went the same direction that's the exact same idea becomes a problem

36:50Chris Ryan:in a lot of these because he gets nominated a lot he keeps not winning they keep feeling like they own Paul Newman has the same thing we might get to some of that some of those guys great pick

36:57Sean Fennessey:we've broken out of the 90s and 2000s thank you Katie okay that means it's me yep shit I don't know what I'm doing. You have to take a look.

37:10Sean Fennessey:Where do I want to go?

37:13Amanda Dobbins:This is always really fun when you chastise everybody else for not being ready and be like, you have to bam, you have to bam. I haven't done that once. And then you just, you're searching.

37:21Sean Fennessey:These are four of the most gifted podcasters on earth and you're sitting here quietly while I say, yes, into a microphone. Why? Talk amongst yourselves. I'm thinking about years. You're doing a self-bam, which is a lean podcast. Yeah, there you go. you've gotten distracted by something she did you're vamping while you're also thinking yeah

37:40Chris Ryan:are you guys thinking years about like what you can grab before somebody else does yes

37:44Amanda Dobbins:yeah i mean i that's how i've organized all of it like i only have one pick per year

37:49Chris Ryan:wow i did a spreadsheet you have to you have to make the hard no it's true it's true you just

37:54Joanna Robinson:spreadsheet left hand is all the years and then right hand is the category so i can see across the year what are the options that i want for that year okay i've got yeah i'm not sure it's

38:03Amanda Dobbins:going to help me but it's only lillian gish so to be clear 76 and 2007 are still on the board yes they are okay and 99 they'll still be on the board after i make my pick which is going to be

38:15Sean Fennessey:for best picture snubs singing in the rain from 1952 i thought it was going to be there yeah i think a case for the worst academy award best picture win of all time um behind crash is maybe the greatest show on earth no offense steven spielberg who loves that film and featured it prominently at the beginning of the Fable movies. Real tough

38:35Joanna Robinson:beat for Jimmy Stewart from you.

38:37Sean Fennessey:This is actually a pretty interesting collection of Best Picture nominees that year. This is when Cecil ran shit. It truly is. High Noon, Ivanhoe, Moulin Rouge, John Huston's Moulin Rouge, and The Quiet Man were the other nominees that year. Singing in the Rain should be the winner in my opinion in this race. I would just take The Greatest Show on Earth out completely. Which is a movie that I think is fun and I understand its spectacle and I understand why six-year-old Steven Spielberg would have his life changed forever by it. But for me, it's kind of boring.

39:06Amanda Dobbins:Singing in the Rain was obviously top of my Best Picture nominee, Snublist, one of my favorite movies. But I will say, because it's perceived, I think, at retroactive history, that Singing in the Rain wasn't really even in the mix because An American in Paris had won several years before. You know, another Stanley Donnan, Gene Kelly musical, Fantasia. I think An American in Paris gets a bad rap. That's all I have to say. it's okay it's amazing we watched it again recently like oh I'm sorry like you're against the Gershwins all of a sudden like when Gene's like setting up his studio and doing his ballet with the knee it's very special

39:42Joanna Robinson:it's got an incredible dance set piece yeah but I don't know that it's a movie I'm so it's beautiful

39:48Katey Rich:excited for when Knox transitions fully into like full blown Star Wars and you're in here next to your with your eyes bugging out of your head being like the thing is about Rogue One that nobody understands is that Gilmore only shot the interiors.

40:05Chris Ryan:That's the journey I've been on as a parent. Amanda, I'll help you out. I'll give you some notes. I just need you to come over

40:09Amanda Dobbins:and find all the other pieces of the Mandalorian's ship. Also, what is his name? Can anyone tell me? Din Djarin. What? Okay, just listen to me. Din Djarin. Din Djarin.

40:20Sean Fennessey:Din?

40:20Amanda Dobbins:Is it a silent J? Yeah, it's a silent J. D-I-N-J. So I just wanted my...

40:25Sean Fennessey:D-I-N space D-J-A-R.

40:28Joanna Robinson:What's the... sort of sociological

40:32Sean Fennessey:backstory there like the silent you got an hour and a half because it's going to take a minute you want to we're doing this draft

40:39Joanna Robinson:and you want to talk about who's picked Din Djarin

40:41Sean Fennessey:I kind of do because as I told Chris last night replaced by bedtime stories has been the Star Wars encyclopedia with Alice where she's just like please just read me these entries but I have been pronouncing the hard D at the end of Din Djarin Din Djarin Din Djarin

40:57Amanda Dobbins:this is like when my husband told my son that the ballet move tendu is pronounced tendus which is just no that's not yeah it's French we've been arguing about

41:10Chris Ryan:ATATs versus ATATs in my house I don't know if anyone wants to do 10 minutes on that

41:13Katey Rich:I screw that up to this day what is it what's the answer I think it's I thought it was ATATs but apparently it's ATAT

41:19Chris Ryan:okay alright my 9 year old was right

41:22Katey Rich:it's so much cooler to call it

41:23Amanda Dobbins:I know but like God has spoken What are the footnotes? Show me the work. I'll send you some journalism.

41:32Katey Rich:So you had, which one?

41:33Sean Fennessey:I picked Singing in the Rain for Best Picture nominee snub 20th Century. 1952. Okay, that means, is it CR's turn?

41:42Katey Rich:It's my turn. I'm going to stay in that same category of Best Picture snub. I did not pick that before. And I am going to take 2001 A Space Odyssey in 1969. Oliver was the winner. the other nominees were Funny Girl, Lion and Winter Rachel, Rachel and Romeo and Juliet

41:58Chris Ryan:wait 68 right?

42:00Katey Rich:68 sorry 69 Oscars 68 movie year Oliver won 2001 Space Odyssey actually predicts how this world is going to end which will happen in about 9 weeks it is probably never been topped as a piece of science fiction they showed it in temples it changed filmmaking forever Kubrick criminally overlooked by the Academy I did as well

42:23Amanda Dobbins:I just deleted it as a director but both I had it for both don't say anything rude about the lion in winter

42:28Katey Rich:I wasn't going to I was going to say of all the nominees the only one I still have time for is lion in winter

42:32Amanda Dobbins:as if it matters how a man should die or fall yeah when the fall is all that's left is that a Mandalorian

42:40Sean Fennessey:have you seen Rachel Rachel Paul Newman's directorial debut directing Julian Woodward it's a good movie is it as good as 2001 it's not it's not but I don't know make some time for it. I want a clip of that. That's what the Oscars should be about. Hey, make some time for this.

42:59Katey Rich:Let's celebrate the fact that this guy saw way into the future.

43:03Sean Fennessey:Wait, what did you, did you take Oliver out? Yes, Oliver. You're taking Oliver out. I was raised by Oliver. That's tough. That's Oliver's bad. Come on. I'm like the number one Carol Reed fan in the universe.

43:13Amanda Dobbins:That's not a good movie. I don't think. That's a great movie.

43:16Sean Fennessey:Okay. So now it's Amanda's turn.

43:18Amanda Dobbins:Yes. Okay. We already talked about it. I just got to go to 92 and in Best Actor Winner Snub, I do need to take Denzel Washington for Malcolm X, which I think is one of the other great insanities. And if I'm doing my list of the greatest screen performances ever, it's probably it's Pacino, not Innocent of Woman, which he wins for that year, but in Godfather 2. And then this this movie was incredible. I don't even think I need to take away the training day Oscar. I mean, Denzel can have as many as he wants.

43:52Sean Fennessey:He wouldn't have won it, though. I don't think.

43:54Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, that's fine. Like, you can do whatever you want. This is a very pure, like, this is an amazing film and an incredible performance. And, like, not the announcement, because he's obviously already won an Oscar, but, like, you watch Denzel in Malcolm X and you're like, that's one of our all-timers. Like, this is a forever actor. and you just want an Oscar to go for that announcement. So, you know, like take it from Pacino. Like if we've already done Katie's work and he already has an Oscar. Yeah, we fixed the 70s. Oh, we're allowed to do that, Matt. Yeah, so then we can take it from Pacino.

44:30Amanda Dobbins:We're creating an alternate universe.

44:32Sean Fennessey:I think it's very similar to what you were describing about An American in Paris, where it was like he had just won for glory. And even though it was a titanic performance, Pacino had zero Oscars. and they just like, they were doing math on the table. They were like, so we're going to let this go and not give whatever 55-year-old Al Pacino an Academy Award and give 32-year-old Denzel Washington the second Academy Award. It does happen sometimes. It could happen this year, right?

44:59Katey Rich:I mean, the reverse of it could happen this year if they give it to Chalamet. If they give it to Chalamet,

45:02Sean Fennessey:it would be like giving Denzel the Oscar that he deserved. But those are two pretty critical all-time races. Can I ask just a general question?

45:10Katey Rich:Did you find yourself with the actor snubs picking more often? Because we were allowed to pick nominated performances or even un-nominated performances. Would you say you were largely drawing from nominated or un-nominated?

45:23Amanda Dobbins:I have one un-nominated here. And the rest are just miscarriages of justice for my favorite actors.

45:33Chris Ryan:It's hard to remember un-nominated. Like that research is tricky to go back and remember who was in the mix. I had one actor when I was really passionate about and maybe should have picked, but I'll get to that at the end.

45:41Sean Fennessey:Okay, Joanna.

45:44Joanna Robinson:okay great stuff for me you get too i do get too um so i would like i don't know if you've ever heard of this uh director but his name is um alfred hitchcock i think that's how you pronounce it um he doesn't have an oscar for directing he doesn't um and i would like to give him one and I'm going to do it for what does the most damage? That can't be how you think. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You can't just like give it to lifeboat because it kills somebody's... I can pick rear window. I could pick Rebecca. I could pick spellbound or I could pick psycho. Or you could pick something who wasn't nominated for, right?

46:30Joanna Robinson:I could, but those were the ones that I wrote down. Not vertigo. Not for me, but

46:38Sean Fennessey:too woke

46:40Joanna Robinson:to San Francisco really bad portrayal of San Francisco obviously or is it 1958 there's another director that I was thinking of putting in 1958 interesting but I don't have to so I am going to do this is tough for me do you guys want to vamp now I'm looking at 1958 trying to guess you've listed one

47:02Amanda Dobbins:that I don't even there's one more that you haven't even listed though I don't actually

47:07Sean Fennessey:Oh, interesting. I don't need...

47:08Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

47:09Sean Fennessey:I don't know. I think his two greatest achievements are Rebecca and North by Northwest. They're not my favorite films of his, but in terms of what he is going for in those movies, I think he absolutely nails. And that, you know,

47:22Joanna Robinson:I'm not trying to be swayed by you, but 1940 does do the most damage. It does.

47:26Sean Fennessey:It's a good one. So I'm going to take 1940 off the board.

47:28Chris Ryan:And Rebecca wins Best Picture, so it kind of makes sense for them to match. I agree. So who won director that year, actually? John Ford for The Grapes of Wrath. Not bad.

47:37Joanna Robinson:Good way. He's made some movies. I'm part of him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel okay with this.

47:42Katey Rich:So you're saying Hitchcock, Rebecca over John Ford, Grapes of Wrath.

47:45Joanna Robinson:Yes.

47:46Katey Rich:Oh, okay.

47:46Joanna Robinson:There are other John Ford movies I would have a harder time making a case against. Okay. Me too. You know.

47:51Sean Fennessey:Interesting pick.

47:52Joanna Robinson:I like that. That's tough. I'm deleting His Girl Friday.

47:54Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. Yeah. It's okay.

47:56Katey Rich:Greg Toland lost his mind on Greg's Wrath. Your strategy worked. Was it Greg Toland did Grapes of Wrath?

48:00Sean Fennessey:He did. He did. He did. What did I just watch that came out that same year? It was Greg Toland. Greg Toland did. I think three movies in 1940. Yeah. Shoot. I'm going to look at Please Vample. Hang on.

48:12Chris Ryan:I'm on his Wikipedia page.

48:15Amanda Dobbins:I mean, 1940, it was fairly stacked. It was a good year. Yeah. It's a great year. And it's still also when there are 10 nominees, right? Yeah. When did they switch from 10 to 5 the first time?

48:25Chris Ryan:Oh, God. So many Wikipedia tabs are open. I know.

48:30Sean Fennessey:Oh, you know what it was? I actually just, I watched his, I watched the 1939 Wuthering Heights. Let's just talk Greg Tolan one second. Okay. Sure. The cinematographer.

48:38Joanna Robinson:I actually love that Wuthering Heights. It's very good. Even though it only adapts half the book.

48:42Sean Fennessey:Well, just like Emory Fennell. What happens in the other half?

48:47Joanna Robinson:Torture. Animal torture.

48:49Sean Fennessey:It's a lot more intense stuff that shifts away. You're like Heathcliff. Yeah. So Greg Tolan from 1939 to 1941 goes, Intermezzo, Wuthering Heights, Raffles, They Shall Have Music, The Grapes of Wrath, The Long Voyage Home, The Westerner, The Outlaw, Citizen Kane, The Little Foxes, Ball of Fire. That's 11 movies in three years, four of which were Best Picture nominees and among the most important movies of all time. Just putting that out there. That was good.

49:15Joanna Robinson:Including The Little Foxes. Just kidding. But I love that movie. That's not a bad movie. That's a great movie. He got Oscars. Well, it's a play, but it's a great movie.

49:21Sean Fennessey:Okay. So you have one more pick.

49:23Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

49:25Sean Fennessey:Damn, Hitchcock. Zagged.

49:28Joanna Robinson:Greg Tolan won for Wuthering Heights. So now Hitchcock entirely is off the board. Hitchcock's done. Yes.

49:31Katey Rich:If you haven't seen

49:32Sean Fennessey:that Wuthering Heights, I recommend it. As a director, and then also all his films

49:35Katey Rich:are off the board.

49:36Joanna Robinson:We're all over on it.

49:36Chris Ryan:No. I think you could still pick North by Northwest to win Best Picture. Correct.

49:40Sean Fennessey:The movies are available but he is not available.

49:45Joanna Robinson:I have the opportunity to do the most ringer thing possible but I don't really want to do that because it's not the most. Okay, so here's I actually have a qualifying question.

49:51Sean Fennessey:You also have a black screen background.

49:53Joanna Robinson:For my eyes. We weren't corrective lenses. I know. Good for you guys. We're doing our best out here.

50:02Joanna Robinson:The year 2000.

50:03Sean Fennessey:Mm-hmm.

50:04Joanna Robinson:can I pick yeah exactly can I pick In the Mood for Love yes you should there was some question about eligibility that year

50:15Sean Fennessey:I don't know and I think we should look that up okay

50:17Chris Ryan:that was my one question I have always thought about the 2000 movie we ran into this in the 2000 movie it was released

50:23Sean Fennessey:in the United States in 2001 and that's historically what we use for drafts we typically go by the US release date now did it play it played Cannes 2000 which I think would have made it eligible for the Academy Awards in 2000.

50:38Chris Ryan:If it had been submitted an international feature.

50:40Joanna Robinson:Yes. Right. Was it submitted or was it? It was not chosen. Got it. It was submitted but not nominated. Sorry, I should say. Oh.

50:47Sean Fennessey:So in that case, I say yes. I say it's the 2000 film.

50:49Chris Ryan:Well, it would have been like a City of God situation which got submitted international and then gets nominated like the next year.

50:55Sean Fennessey:Did it get submitted in the original year of its release?

50:58Chris Ryan:I think so.

50:58Sean Fennessey:I know there's something wonky going on with that one. We're in Dorktown now. This is really it. But also 2001 is still on the board.

51:03Amanda Dobbins:I think this is flexing a little bit, but I don't mind. Can I take 2000 off the board? We're massaging it slightly, but if we want to have you the spirit of generosity. So that would be for 2000?

51:12Joanna Robinson:2000. All right. I'm taking in the mood for love for Best Picture nomination, snub, 21st century. We said 2000 was 21st century. We did. Last night when I texted you. Yes.

51:23Sean Fennessey:We agreed. Does everyone agree to that? Sure.

51:26Joanna Robinson:Okay.

51:27Sean Fennessey:Intriguing. You're zagging all over the place.

51:31Joanna Robinson:I'm trying to spread.

51:32Sean Fennessey:I appreciate it. It's nice. No chalk for you. All right, Amanda, you've got another pick.

51:37Amanda Dobbins:I do. And I'm trying to figure out what I want to do here.

51:43Sean Fennessey:This is game theory, guys. This is it. This is what it's all about.

51:46Joanna Robinson:I mean, is this revenge for the fantasy football draft that you absolutely lost your marbles over?

51:52Katey Rich:Do you think you'll ever be able to draft again in a draft where you are not the commish? He did not have a draft with us.

51:59Sean Fennessey:I did do that happily, and I enjoyed it in one again, of course.

52:06Sean Fennessey:I, the problem with that draft was that the rules were not just poor, but poorly communicated. That's not something I'm interested in. What I want is I want it all on the table. I want us all to be able to communicate, look each other in the eye and say, I agree. Yeah. You know, and that didn't happen last time. You were there. No, you weren't there. I wasn't there, but I almost won. I was the only one on this table who said you did almost win. Almost. Thanks to Dave Frazier.

52:26Amanda Dobbins:So can you, hold on. You, he did Goodfellas. Yes. In picture winner snub. Yes, yes. But did Scorsese get an Oscar? He wasn't. So he's still available. Yes, yes. In director winner snub.

52:45Katey Rich:Right. Yes. But not for Goodfellas.

52:47Amanda Dobbins:But not for Goodfellas. Correct. But this is like Hitchcock. You got to choose your Scorsese snub. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But not for Goodfellas. But then he did get one. So I'm kind of like, do I want to?

53:01Chris Ryan:Yeah. But do you want to get in one earlier so it doesn't have to be The Departed?

53:05Amanda Dobbins:No, that's true. But like, I don't know if I feel that strongly about it. That's why I got really into the what ifs.

53:13Sean Fennessey:Because I'm like, if you're going to take it away from somebody who eventually gets one, there's got to be at least a domino effect that is appealing.

53:18Amanda Dobbins:Right. And I don't really, I don't have that. So instead, I, hold on. I think I'm going to just, I'm going to do my passions. This is what I'm going to do. And I think in 2014, in Best Director, I will take Wes Anderson for Grand Foodpast Hotel. Nice. Good one. Fuck. Sorry. Sorry to Ralph Fiennes. Sorry. That is my Ralph Fiennes. Yeah. Sorry.

53:41Joanna Robinson:Well, I had Ralph Fiennes in A Bigger Splash, but, you know, someone went crazy. Also my Jake Gyllenhaal Nightballer, Justice.

53:49Amanda Dobbins:So, Wes Anderson has a short film Oscar now.

53:54Katey Rich:Sure does. He does.

53:55Amanda Dobbins:Like, okay. Whatever. He's one of...

53:58Katey Rich:Wait, oh yeah, that's right. And Fox wasn't animated. That wasn't like... It didn't win. Okay.

54:02Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, that's a great film. We even watched that in my house. But one of our signature, this signature filmmakers of our generation doesn't have an Oscar. Yet. Yet. But I also don't think he's making his best stuff right now. He has a short...

54:17Sean Fennessey:I think the interest is kind of waning in his stuff a little bit too. Which is sad,

54:20Amanda Dobbins:even though I think Asteroid City is just like gobsmacking. but I think you know Grand Budapest was is one of my favorites of his films was like a huge box office success and it was the coronation

54:32Sean Fennessey:moment that kind of just passed by him and we thought it was

54:35Chris Ryan:going to lead to more and instead of that was it

54:37Amanda Dobbins:so this year was the Oscars of yeah I'm also taking it away from Mineritu for Birdman so that's fine with me he wins another one literally the next year

54:47Sean Fennessey:yeah the thing I had Leo winning for Wolf of Wall Street here and then that sets off another little chain reaction where where Damon can then win for the Martian. Was it Wolf?

54:56Chris Ryan:Wolf of Wall Street is 2013. That's still on the board. Is it 13? Mm-hmm. I take it back. I take it back. Hold your fire. I take it back.

55:03Sean Fennessey:Okay. So, Chris, you're up. Okay.

55:10Joanna Robinson:Follow the question about wild card. The year off the board still counts for wild card, right? It does. I'm sorry, Jake Gyllenhaal. I really did try to give you your Oscar. All the same rules apply.

55:21Katey Rich:so let's just make sure i know what i got here so far i have 2001 in best picture snub 20th i do not have a 21st i have best picture winner i took goodfellas pretty good all right yeah good board gone god darn it i think what i'm gonna do is

55:45Amanda Dobbins:Yes. Actress. Believe in yourself. Uh-oh. I'm nervous. Winner's snug. We haven't done one yet. Oh, no.

55:50Sean Fennessey:This will be the first time you talk about a woman on this podcast. This is super exciting. 1950, I'll take Bette Davis for All About Eve.

55:56Chris Ryan:Oh. Wow. Yeah, I love it. One of the all-time tough best actress calls. And it was... That's good.

56:01Katey Rich:Judy Holliday won for Born Yesterday.

56:03Chris Ryan:She's great.

56:04Katey Rich:Good win. She's great. Boris Swanson right there for Sunset Below. Tough one. Tough one. I just, Betty Davis and All About Eve is one of my five favorite performances ever, probably.

56:15Joanna Robinson:Oh, I'm knowing that.

56:17Katey Rich:Let's put it in bill terms. Top nine performances from the 50s.

56:22Amanda Dobbins:Very CR coded.

56:24Katey Rich:So yeah, I'll do that. I don't, I did not, I admit I did not do Betty Davis Oscar research, so I don't know if this changes the trajectory of her awards cabinet or mantelpiece.

56:34Chris Ryan:That would have been, she had already won Oscars by then.

56:35Katey Rich:She had already won twice, I think, by this point. Well, you know what? but three's a charm. Yeah. She deserves it. So that's,

56:41Sean Fennessey:I'll do Betty Davis. I think it would have been reasonable for her to be in the class of like Catherine Hepburn and Frances McDormand of the three-time winners. So that's an interesting pick, Chris. Thanks, Sean. Nice stuff.

56:52Chris Ryan:I had Gloria Swanson on mine, but it's a tough call.

56:55Sean Fennessey:She was nominated two, four, six, eight, 10, 11 times.

57:00Chris Ryan:Dang.

57:00Sean Fennessey:Every time in Best Actress, never in Supporting. That's how you do it. That's starting.

57:06Joanna Robinson:That was a tough one in because in best actor and best actress we're talking lead performance right we're not doing supporting that was important yeah because there were just like a few I had one in actor

57:17Katey Rich:that I'm like I'm not sure well there's just like

57:19Joanna Robinson:a few actors who don't have Oscars where they're all supporting guys and gals and it was tough sorry what year was 1950

57:28Sean Fennessey:thank you I'm loving this we're going all the way back yeah this is really good I am gonna go back to the 21st century though and I'm going to get into Best Picture nominee snub 21st century. I've got a lot of options here. Yeah. Are you going to go for the crowd? Are you going to go

57:50Amanda Dobbins:with your heart? Are you going to be interesting? Are you going to be normie?

57:57Sean Fennessey:I went super normie with both back over Crash. That was the story. There are a few more super normie I think snubs. I'm not doing that. I'm going 2012, which is one of the worst collections of Oscar nominees ever in this category, in my opinion. And I'm going, put the girl with the dragon tattoo in. Whoa.

58:16Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

58:16Sean Fennessey:You can take out any one of the following. The Artist, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close. Oh, that's 11. Hang on.

58:21Chris Ryan:You're on 2011.

58:23Sean Fennessey:Sorry, 11. Not to origin. You're 2011. Sorry, 2011.

58:27Amanda Dobbins:I had an even better option for 2011 here. Was it Michael Fassbender in shame? No, it was obviously Melancholia, but whatever. I love 2012. I was so mad at you.

58:37Sean Fennessey:Sorry, 2011.

58:37Chris Ryan:No, 2011 sucks. You're right. Yeah.

58:40Sean Fennessey:This is the whole slate of that year. The Artist, which won. The Descendants, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close. The Help, Hugo, Midnight in Paris, Moneyball, The Tree of Life, and War Horse.

58:49Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. Really bad. It was really tough.

58:51Sean Fennessey:Maybe three and a half good nominees there. I mean, that's crazy. Tree of Life, Moneyball,

58:55Katey Rich:and War Horse. Yeah, I like Hugo. Banger. Yeah.

58:58Amanda Dobbins:War Horse is such a CRM. We gotta call my dad. My dad has been angry about War Horse for a decade.

59:06Sean Fennessey:The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, more and more we're learning every day. Masterpiece. We're seeing increasingly.

59:12Katey Rich:We're getting closer to Stanley and closer to Fincher. And that's what we have to acknowledge.

59:16Sean Fennessey:Also a film that I think really saw the future in terms of how people are treated and how the internet is used. Honestly, quite insightful.

59:24Katey Rich:I was telling Sean, did you guys know Eyes Wide Shuts in the top 30 of Apple movies right now?

59:28Amanda Dobbins:Cool.

59:28Sean Fennessey:Wonder why.

59:29Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

59:31Sean Fennessey:I shared this with Chris and Bill and I'm just going to share it on the show because Chris sent that to us last night and I did Brian Wintour's fingers at 8.49pm so at 8.04am I received a text message from my 20 year old nephew who said hey Uncle Sean it's Gavin I just watched Eyes Wide Shut and I was wondering what your opinion on the movie was and I was a little confused on the main message as well

59:55Joanna Robinson:this is so sweet

59:56Sean Fennessey:first of all Gavin my dude I love Gavin. I told Gavin, I was like, look, buddy, I'll just call you this weekend. We'll talk about it. We're not going to text about this.

1:00:04Katey Rich:What are some of the Eyes Wide Shut docs we can find on YouTube? Oh, my God.

1:00:08Sean Fennessey:There's money out there.

1:00:09Chris Ryan:How many podcast hours has he got?

1:00:12Sean Fennessey:Okay. So that's my pick, which means, Katie, you've got two picks. Okay.

1:00:17Chris Ryan:So I had a picture nom with you the right thing, but I haven't done a win yet because that's a separate thing. And I do feel a little crazy that we have not yet talked about what I think is one of the all-time famous it didn't even win Best Picture Movie I'm going with 1941 and Citizen Kane yes you've heard of that one yeah

1:00:33Katey Rich:I screwed up

1:00:34Amanda Dobbins:no I'm now deleting the Lady Eve so that's sad I also had the Lady Eve yeah not even nominated what are we doing Barbara Stanwyck

1:00:41Joanna Robinson:yeah if I had if I couldn't get Hitchcock I was gonna go for Wells

1:00:45Chris Ryan:yeah I also had Wells in actor if I hadn't gone that way because he loses to Gary Cooper who then wins later and you could fix some history there but it's not the acting like Citizen Kane is Orson Welles and his vision and the Wunderkind and Greg Toland our man back again didn't even win for it crazy crazy and it was nominated in Lost to How Green Was My Valley which is a movie I haven't seen it's very sweet this is what I always hear like it's very earnest it's really good and a lot of times you'll go back and watch those movies from the 40s and you're like oh I thought this was gonna be boring and it's great I am sure it's right there but I think we can all agree that putting Citizen Kane in there is the right thing that should have happened I really agree yeah okay so I'm gonna so we got the 40 we got 41 and now I'm gonna zag way back up and go into Best Actress in 2004.

1:01:28Chris Ryan:And I think that if we had just given Kate Winslet her Oscar for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind instead of Hilary Swings.

1:01:36Amanda Dobbins:Isn't that 2003?

1:01:37Chris Ryan:Do I have it wrong?

1:01:38Sean Fennessey:I did it again. I know. You did it. Same thing.

1:01:41Chris Ryan:You're twinning. I have 04.

1:01:43Sean Fennessey:04, yeah.

1:01:43Chris Ryan:Oh, it is? Yeah, okay. No, I think you got in my head about the history fixing thing. So, I mean, I think.

1:01:48Sean Fennessey:I have this exact, I'm curious how far you take this one.

1:01:51Chris Ryan:I didn't, probably not as far as you, but even without even doing that, Give Kate Winslet. I'm obsessed with where this ends. I cannot wait to hear where this goes. But like, even if you're not fixing history, that is a great performance. That is a movie that is incredibly meaningful to me and probably everyone within 10 years of my age range. And she was somewhat, okay. Her worst take. Her worst take.

1:02:12Amanda Dobbins:And Kirsten Dunst is in it. So you have to know I really mean it. Okay. Anyway, let's find a better time. This also means that I can't do my cute best picture nominee snub, which was Mean Girls in 2004, which should have been nominated. The Academy doesn't recognize comedy. Never would have happened. 2004, another year. That doesn't matter. It's not the exercise of the game. We did. We talked about the spirit

1:02:30Sean Fennessey:of what could have happened.

1:02:32Amanda Dobbins:Well, maybe we should, in addition to adjudicating wins, it should be that the Oscars recognize comedy as well. Well, that can be your draft that you do on your pod.

1:02:42Chris Ryan:I mean, some comedies

1:02:43Amanda Dobbins:should make their way into this.

1:02:44Chris Ryan:I'm sorry that you and Charlie Kaufman... There is some comedy in The Turtle Sunshine. There's funniness in there, including Kate Winslet. it's one of her great performances. She had already given so many at this point. She was kind of obviously overdue. She then, of course, wins a couple years later for The Reader, a movie we all love and revere and watch constantly. So if you give it to her that year, Hilary Swank doesn't get her second Oscar for Million Dollar Baby. I think we can all live with it. The way I went with it is then, and I don't know that this really would have happened, is that then Anne Hathaway can win for Rachel Getting Married in 08.

1:03:14Chris Ryan:And then after that, she doesn't have to win Supporting Actress in 2012. Then Amy Adams can win for The Master.

1:03:20Sean Fennessey:And what's next after that? That is a great outcome. I had a slightly different trajectory. So to me, I agree. I think Kate Winslet should have won that year. I love that movie. That clears the way for Meryl's third Oscar for Doubt, which I think is a better performance than The Iron Lady and a better movie than The Iron Lady, which means that clears the way for Glenn Close to finally be free and to have an Oscar for Albert Knobs.

1:03:42Joanna Robinson:Albert Knobs is written on this document. You want her to win for Albert Knobs? I just want Glenn Close to be happy. She's winning for Knobs.

1:03:49Sean Fennessey:I just want her to be okay.

1:03:50Joanna Robinson:She's winning for Knobs is what he says. she's in Murphy land now she's doing great and meanwhile

1:03:56Sean Fennessey:I think she is pained by the fact that she does not have an account

1:03:59Joanna Robinson:not even a nomination Albert Nob's also a comedy in its own right though so you know

1:04:03Chris Ryan:I mean you know I feel like it wasn't terrible I don't remember that much about Albert Nob's great

1:04:07Joanna Robinson:I would say

1:04:09Sean Fennessey:Katie we're vibing that's two acting picks that are the same idea speaking my language that's really funny um okay now we're back to are we back to me? uh

1:04:19Katey Rich:we're back to you yes hmm

1:04:23Sean Fennessey:I kind of want to do another one of those okay a similarly minded maybe you could have been

1:04:27Amanda Dobbins:preparing for that instead of you know

1:04:30Sean Fennessey:I am prepared in fact I'm ready to do it right now is 1973 still on the board I think it is right

1:04:37Chris Ryan:I think all of the 70s are on the board 74 74 is off

1:04:41Joanna Robinson:yeah

1:04:42Sean Fennessey:this is a bit of a rewriting history pick Glenda Jackson won in 1973 for best actress for a touch of class show of hands how many people here have seen A Touch of Class? Me and Joe. This was her second win in four years. And Glenda Jackson is a rare best actress, two-time winner, who I would say most people born after 1980 are not familiar with and couldn't pick out of a crowd. And she does not have the same legacy as so many of our great actors and actresses. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take that second one away from Glenda. I'm going to give it to Ellen Burson for The Exorcist, which is an incredible performance.

1:05:17Sean Fennessey:Now, Ellen Burson does win the following year for Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Also a very good performance. Amazing performance. But then you get to do something similar that Katie did earlier, which is give the next Oscar to Faye Dunaway for Chinatown in 1974 as Evelyn Mulray, which then means Faye Dunaway doesn't have to win and we can have Sissy Spacek win for Carrie in 1976, which means Sissy Spacek doesn't have to win for Coal Miner's Daughter, which means we can give Mary Tyler Moore her Oscar for Ordinary People.

1:05:45Joanna Robinson:I like it.

1:05:46Sean Fennessey:And then Mary Tyler Moore doesn't have to not have an Oscar.

1:05:48Amanda Dobbins:But let me ask you this. But DC Spacex should have an on. She has one for Carrie. She gets one for Carrie. Yeah, though I still like the Faye Dunaway Network performance more than Chinatown.

1:05:56Katey Rich:Oh, I like Chinatown more than Network. Okay. But it's just different strokes. There you go. Flaw in the Iris, you know? How do you feel about the idea?

1:06:05Joanna Robinson:Was that a Captain America Civil War reference? No, it's in Chinatown.

1:06:09Katey Rich:Oh, Chinatown. Flaw in the Iris. That's so embarrassing for me. How do you feel about the idea that you win one, now you're off the board? Would you want to live in a world?

1:06:18Amanda Dobbins:seem to be gatekeeping.

1:06:19Sean Fennessey:It's really how it works. I mean, it's really how voters think.

1:06:22Amanda Dobbins:It's not how it works. You can me. It's not how it works, but I think it should be how it works.

1:06:27Sean Fennessey:You think there should be a rule? I disagree.

1:06:29Amanda Dobbins:I'm giving, I'm going to try to give more Oscars. No, I don't care. No, I just don't care about category fraud. I don't care about term, you know, in this case, not term limits. It's not in this draft. In this case only.

1:06:40Joanna Robinson:Not in this draft. I just mean in life. It should work that way. I feel like there are too many actors who need an Oscar who don't have an Oscar And then I do like that Catherine Hepburn has a whole cabinet full. But if she wanted to give a couple away to people who never got them, then I think that that would be better. Redition of wealth is what you're advocating for. I'm a socialist.

1:06:57Sean Fennessey:I think when there's a lot of bunched wins, most of the time people are kind of punished. You know, I actually think we've been talking about the Leo and Timmy thing this year. And I think even still there's a little bit of like, he doesn't have to win quite yet again. And I think it doesn't always happen because the Glenda Jackson close wins did happen. Emma Stone is doing it right now. Emma Stone, yeah.

1:07:16Katey Rich:Because I would say with the exception of the Patriots, you admire dominance in sports. That's true. I like a dynasty. And so it's like taking Daniel Day-Lewis off the board at my left foot. That's true.

1:07:28Chris Ryan:You're just going to let Lincoln sit there and go unacknowledged?

1:07:32Sean Fennessey:I'll tell you what.

1:07:32Chris Ryan:Your Lincoln thing?

1:07:34Sean Fennessey:I reserve the right to choose whatever I want. And in some cases, I'm like, just give DDL every Oscar.

1:07:39Katey Rich:I think the historical game of like, if they win, then this happens. Because I think that this is an interesting thing. I won't give away what I think might be my pick, but yeah. I thought it would be interesting to take Ordinary People,

1:07:53Sean Fennessey:bring it into the conversation a little bit too, because it's an interesting... Yes. Somebody may want to talk about it later on, but to me, that movie is very, very good, and I really like it. We did a rewatchables on it. I think it's very accomplished. I think Mary Tyler Moore is maybe the best thing in it. She is, yes. And I really... That's like one of those wins that I always thought should have happened, even though Sissy Spansick is wonderful in Coal Miner's Order. Sometimes there's just two deserving winners. and somebody has to choose and this would be a way to kind of alleviate that.

1:08:19Amanda Dobbins:Can we look at the supporting category in that year? Because couldn't you make the argument for Mary Tyler Moore in supporting?

1:08:24Sean Fennessey:You could.

1:08:24Amanda Dobbins:In Ordinary People? I mean, it is one of those supporting performances that the entire movie hinges on.

1:08:29Sean Fennessey:I think Tim Hutton won for supporting that year but he's really the lead of the movie.

1:08:33Chris Ryan:Now you're taking away Mary Steenburgen's Oscar for Melvin and Howard.

1:08:37Amanda Dobbins:I mean, I do like Mary Steenburgen. We do.

1:08:39Chris Ryan:Melvin and Howard is one of those

1:08:41Amanda Dobbins:like doesn't exist. I mean, I've seen it but like a movie that doesn't feel like it exists. Anyway, that's how I personally would fix it because I don't care about category fraud.

1:08:48Sean Fennessey:I own it, of course.

1:08:51Amanda Dobbins:I believe in the sanctity of American elections and not as far as elections. I do think that's just to be clear. Straight to camera.

1:08:58Chris Ryan:I want to be clear about the stakes at play. I think it's okay to not care.

1:09:02Katey Rich:You don't think we've had enough elections? We can just stop.

1:09:07Sean Fennessey:Speaking of, you have to elect your next pick.

1:09:09Katey Rich:Well, okay. So I'm going to pick a best actor winner snub. and I'm undecided at the moment while I vamp between going into an area that I've already drafted. You know what? I'm just going to do actually.

1:09:22Amanda Dobbins:Follow your heart. Okay.

1:09:22Katey Rich:Follow your heart.

1:09:24Amanda Dobbins:Follow your heart.

1:09:25Katey Rich:1998 still on the board?

1:09:27Amanda Dobbins:I think so. Yes, it is.

1:09:30Katey Rich:Jeff Bridges is the dude in Big Lebowski. Oh, I like this.

1:09:33Sean Fennessey:Really good. Really good pick. This is cool.

1:09:35Katey Rich:The Academy does not understand the Cullens for the majority of their peak, their prime. They could finally get one for no country. but their inability to understand the Coens and their rewarding Roberto Benigni for an irreverent comic performance, tragic comic performance, while Bridges just languishes in being one of the most iconic characters in my lifetime with the dude is a travesty, is a snub of all snubs. I like that pick.

1:10:08Joanna Robinson:Does he then not win for Crazy Heart?

1:10:10Katey Rich:If we exist in the one and done world, yes. And I'd be fine with that.

1:10:15Sean Fennessey:Do we feel Jeff Bridges rises to the level of deserves too? I would say maybe yes.

1:10:20Chris Ryan:I don't know if the crazy heart gets its engine. I agree. I think maybe Clooney wins that year, which wouldn't have been.

1:10:27Katey Rich:That was Siriana?

1:10:28Chris Ryan:Up in the air.

1:10:28Katey Rich:Up in the air. Yeah, that's interesting. You're probably right.

1:10:31Chris Ryan:Yeah. Clooney already won for Siriana by that point? He won supporting actor for Siriana, right? Before that?

1:10:37Sean Fennessey:Yeah, that's like 05, 04.

1:10:39Katey Rich:In your new history, where people come off the board after winning once, can they win for a different category?

1:10:46Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I mean, I want to control space and time, obviously. So this is a new history that we are writing here. Call me Howard Zinn. So I had this as well, but I just had, let's just let Tom Hanks have three. So that kind of goes to your dynasty point. Because then it could have been Tom Hanks and Saving Private Ryan that year. Which is just like that Benini win sucks. It's so terrible. It's the beginning of the awfulness of the 1C era, too. Yeah, okay.

1:11:07Chris Ryan:Also, RIP to Jim Carrey and Truman Show, who I had in my 98. That would have been a good one, too. That's a good one.

1:11:11Sean Fennessey:That would have been a really good one. Yeah. Okay.

1:11:16Amanda Dobbins:Is it me?

1:11:17Sean Fennessey:It's you, Amanda. It's my turn? Okay, great.

1:11:19Amanda Dobbins:I'm going to do the obvious thing because it's still here. And this is me fixing history the way that I want to. In 2008, in Best Picture nominee snub, I will take The Dark Knight. And then we just fix it. Okay? Like, and then I just don't have to hear about it anymore. Batman mommy rises. Please, please stop believing that Interstellar is so good. Okay? Like, please.

1:11:45Sean Fennessey:I don't think a Best Picture win would have alleviated that.

1:11:48Amanda Dobbins:I know, but like maybe then I don't have to hear about the third act of Oppenheimer so much. Like, I just, we, like, stop the madness. Stop it. Stop it. Wait, are you now becoming old him? Auntie Nolan? I like Inception. Yeah. I love Tenet. like let's ride it's cool I like it we love Tenet

1:12:07Joanna Robinson:we hated her cellar

1:12:07Amanda Dobbins:and I really thought that he was very charming at the DGAs when I went also he walked out to Kashmir he did which is very funny and he said oh that was a little dramatic he was a little confused by it but I just like the the the snub of the Dark Knight in 2008 created like mass hysteria among Nolan fans and among Oscar like voters and how we put the Oscars have you guys talked about

1:12:29Katey Rich:whether you'd go back pre-Dark Knight 5 just there's There's a smaller field for best picture.

1:12:36Sean Fennessey:Like right now, should we go back to five? We have talked about it in the past. There are some years where it feels more appropriate. I always thought the variable year was a little bit more fun, where you could have gotten eight or nine, because that indicated a real strength. That being said, I also kind of like when a movie like F1 kind of sneaks in at the end, too.

1:12:53Amanda Dobbins:We almost certainly would have had nine this year if that had been an option. Yeah, I'm happy that Top Gun Maverick got nominated. I like that we make room for blockbusters. I just it you're making room for one right here it just comes with such psychosis that like if we could just do you feel like

1:13:08Katey Rich:if we go back and we give Dark Knight best director or best picture he said

1:13:11Amanda Dobbins:best picture nominee just a nomination nomination let me ask you a question

1:13:15Sean Fennessey:related to this do you think if this happens that the way in which comic book films are made and the kinds of comic book movies we get are any different if Dark Knight is nominated for best picture

1:13:27Joanna Robinson:I do not that it would have saved us from the sort of like explosion of comic book movies but I think the sort of like let's take this more seriously would have happened even earlier than it did. Do you know what I mean?

1:13:40Sean Fennessey:Yeah. That's sort of what I'm thinking is like do you get you know a Black Panther earlier? You know because you're like That's exactly what I was thinking. You know? Yeah.

1:13:49Chris Ryan:I think you do. But the Dark Knight made so much money

1:13:51Joanna Robinson:which is the real incentive for all this right? It is but it isn't because they also want you know Marvel at a certain point starts chasing they want that

1:14:01Chris Ryan:It takes them too long to chase Oscars and it wouldn't happen as well.

1:14:04Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I just saw Kevin Feige last week talked about how happy he was that Sinners was being recognized so much. Obviously, he's got some skin in the game with having worked with Kugler for years. But also he was like, it doesn't always happen that the Academy recognizes what real moviegoers really enjoy. And I was like, all right, buddy, you know, settle down. I'm sorry that, you know, Love and Thunder didn't get into Best Picture that year.

1:14:25Amanda Dobbins:I will also say, the first hour and a half of The Dark Knight, unlike anything I've ever seen, absolutely rips. Incredible stuff.

1:14:34Katey Rich:You didn't like it when it started focusing on Maggie Gyllenhaal.

1:14:36Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, that's right.

1:14:39Katey Rich:Rachel Dawes. Rachel Dawes, baby.

1:14:42Amanda Dobbins:She's the assistant, dear? Recast from Katie Holmes. Yeah, you were like, I miss Katie. Yeah, exactly.

1:14:47Joanna Robinson:You're like, where's Katie's range of emotion here?

1:14:50Sean Fennessey:If you could fuck Rachel Dawes or fuck the Joker, who would you fuck? Because that's sort of what Batman has to do. Honestly,

1:14:59Katey Rich:the Joker. Yeah, a thousand percent. Because the Joker, I would do it for the story. But he's Joker. Not Joaquin's Joker. He's Joker. Is it Joaquin's Joker also on the table? Jared's Joker? This is not Cesar Romero. Barry Keaton's Joker.

1:15:12Joanna Robinson:Barry Keaton's Joker. There it is.

1:15:16Katey Rich:That's just getting erased. We're not doing Joker in Matt Reeves' movies? I don't know.

1:15:20Amanda Dobbins:Are we doing Matt Reeves' movies? Well, he called me. is the very question you should ask yourself. As we finished the script, he was giving me updates. Hey, as we wrote pages.

1:15:28Chris Ryan:the Pattinson one, is that? Yeah. That movie came out like eight years ago. Yes. And was amazing. And now he's Ringo.

1:15:33Katey Rich:So he's like, I'm busy, lad. Nice work. You have a pick. Fuck. Do I? I just picked. I thought it was. I think we picked out of order. Joanna has two back to back right now. That's what it is. And then me again.

1:15:45Joanna Robinson:Oh, we're going back. My bad, my bad. All right. This is really tough. You know, sometimes you have to take an Oscar away from someone you do think deserves it. And I just frantically skipped around trying to find another place to give it to him. But I can't. So I'm so sorry to the late great William Hurt who no longer have an Oscar. And I am giving it to Harrison Ford in Witness. Yes! This was 1985. That was one of mine. Good one. And I was trying, like, Kiss of the Spider Woman?

1:16:08Sean Fennessey:Is that what you said? Kiss of the Spider Woman,

1:16:09Joanna Robinson:which is not what he should have won for. But I couldn't find a win. Like, you're taking one from John Connery. You're taking one, like, I could not. This is where I was going to go in Bob Car. There were, like, so many corners where it's like, ah, that's Paul Newman's, ah, that's Sean Connery. So William Hurt, you get no Oscar, but Harrison Ford has one for Witness, which he deserves. He does.

1:16:23Sean Fennessey:I did take one of, something I was leaning towards, which was Sidney Pollack winning for Out of Africa over Akira Kurosawa for Ron.

1:16:31Amanda Dobbins:Yeah. But that was the game back then. Yeah, that's how you did it. I mean, 85 was a target-rich year also.

1:16:40Sean Fennessey:That's the weirdest year ever because Out of Africa dominates, but Meryl Streep doesn't win. Because she had just won two

1:16:46Chris Ryan:pretty close together.

1:16:47Sean Fennessey:It doesn't stop them before. That's true. Okay. Another for Joe. One more for Joanna.

1:16:53Joanna Robinson:I knew I could wait because this is a weirdly anti-arrival podcast, but... No, it's not.

1:17:00Amanda Dobbins:Excuse me. You're not up to date. That's fine. You did not listen to all of the Big Picture episodes.

1:17:05Joanna Robinson:I listen to a lot of them.

1:17:07Amanda Dobbins:Are you trying to silence a woman on this podcast?

1:17:10Joanna Robinson:It's very loud. You were here. When Rob and I were here, we were doing the whole Amy Adams filmography and Sean was just like, Arrival, what a piece of trash I did not say that

1:17:18Sean Fennessey:how dare you

1:17:19Joanna Robinson:it's beautiful

1:17:20Sean Fennessey:I like it it's good

1:17:21Joanna Robinson:Amy Adams deserves an Oscar as we all I think at this table agree but I also don't agree

1:17:26Amanda Dobbins:but that's okay you're going Amy Adams

1:17:28Sean Fennessey:in Actors but I really like Arrival

1:17:30Amanda Dobbins:would you give Jeremy Renner an Oscar for Arrival

1:17:31Chris Ryan:who would you have picked I'd probably Villeneuve okay okay all right fair enough

1:17:36Sean Fennessey:so you're taking 16 off the board who won in 16 Emma Stone

1:17:40Joanna Robinson:and she gets one later yeah she doesn't get it for La La Lange I can't say I approve of that.

1:17:47Chris Ryan:I'm with you, Joanna. I really hoped you would pick this one. You're fixing the sci-fi of the mid-2010s with Mad Max and Arrival. You know what? Thank you so much.

1:17:57Sean Fennessey:Okay. All right. Amanda, we're back to you.

1:17:59Amanda Dobbins:Yes, I have another. I'm going to go old school. Best picture nominee snub. 1938, bringing up baby.

1:18:09Joanna Robinson:Hell yeah.

1:18:10Amanda Dobbins:Hell yeah, girl. I like... Hell yeah, girl. Rock on. You go, girl. Baby.

1:18:20Amanda Dobbins:Bringing up Baby is, what were you going to ask?

1:18:22Katey Rich:Nothing. Go ahead.

1:18:24Amanda Dobbins:I mean, it kind of invents all of it. I mean, it is before Philadelphia Story. It's before His Girl Friday. It is like one of the signature screwball comedies of Hollywood. A perfect movie. and still referenced in great films like Jurassic Park, whatever the most recent one was called. Rebirth. Rebirth, yeah. Jonathan Bailey doing his best American natural history museum.

1:18:52Sean Fennessey:An absolute dog baby of a movie, yeah. Sorry, bro.

1:18:55Amanda Dobbins:And dog baby of a movie.

1:18:58Sean Fennessey:Why did you say sorry, bro?

1:18:59Katey Rich:Because you loved it. I thought it was fine.

1:19:02Joanna Robinson:Do you think Johnny Bailey's glasses in that movie was a nod to Cary Grant and his glasses? I do. It was. for people who didn't see it

1:19:09Katey Rich:should we recap what happens in Jurassic World should we re-rebirth what happened in rebirth

1:19:13Chris Ryan:I've watched it over people's shoulders on a plane enough times in segments I think I've got it like I think I figured out the plot without ever hearing it

1:19:19Sean Fennessey:you don't need to hear anybody talking it I think I'm good yeah not a lot of good talking in a movie something you'd like to improve on in films did David Koepp write that he did yeah he did

1:19:27Joanna Robinson:that's why when we're like David Koepp it's it's a mixed bag

1:19:30Sean Fennessey:you never know yeah you really never know bringing a baby zero Oscar nominations it's crazy that's pretty wild

1:19:35Chris Ryan:Cary Grant no Oscar Because for granted, they didn't know how good they had it.

1:19:38Sean Fennessey:This is a great quiz. I never would have been able to do well on this. How many Best Picture nominees from 1938 can you name? This table collectively.

1:19:46Amanda Dobbins:I just looked at it, so I will excise myself from this. How many of them have I seen? Not that many. Because 39 is so iconic. And 38, I got...

1:19:56Sean Fennessey:38, there are 10 nominees.

1:19:57Katey Rich:Rattle them off so we can say whether we've seen it.

1:19:58Sean Fennessey:Well, you can't take it with you one. Yes, and I have seen that. The Cap will win. The Adventures of Robin Hood, which is very good. The Michael Ortiz film, Errol Flynn. Alexander's Ragtime Band I've seen it haven't seen it you've seen that nice Boys Town The Citadel Four Daughters Grand Illusion of course Renoir's masterpiece Jezebel great very good film Pygmalion Free My Fair Lady and Test Pilot which I haven't seen I've seen Test Pilot you were the star you wrote and directed and starred in Test Pilot I'm 106 years old

1:20:29Katey Rich:he is for pilot I want to clarify something real quick Joe for Amy Adams Arrival 2016 Did you put that in Best Actress winner snub?

1:20:38Joanna Robinson:Yes.

1:20:38Katey Rich:Does it matter that she was not nominated for? No, we're allowed to. It's okay. Okay, got it. Just wanted to clarify.

1:20:44Joanna Robinson:Thank you for clarifying.

1:20:47Sean Fennessey:Okay.

1:20:49Katey Rich:Now we're up to Chris. Okay. Yeah? Yes. I'm going to go in Best Director. Okay. I think I have this right, and I'm going to play your little game, Sean. Please do. If we give Peter Jackson best director for the two towers, which is what he deserves it for. Wow. All right. We can then give Peter Weir the master and commander Oscar that he deserves. That's beautiful. Several years later. I love this for you. So for O2.

1:21:18Joanna Robinson:This is my favorite thing that's ever happened.

1:21:20Katey Rich:Honestly, I would have taken Clint Mystic River as the second choice in that category for the one that Return of the King won. Return of the King ends 19 times does not have Helm's Deep that's a cumulative win

1:21:33Joanna Robinson:thanks for the trilogy and I'm like

1:21:35Katey Rich:I'm out on that you gotta be judged on its merits so Denis should have won for Doom 2 don't wait to give Denis the fucking Oscar for this one

1:21:42Sean Fennessey:right so you said Return of the King is a 3 out of 10 but Two Towers is a 10 out of 10

1:21:47Katey Rich:no not 3 but it's like a I would say it's a 7 what happens in Two Towers

1:21:52Sean Fennessey:it's the worst one Two Towers is Helm's Deep I think you're right I think it is the worst one but I think if it ended just the first ending I would feel differently

1:22:00Amanda Dobbins:Dean Jarden The trees walk around Go back to the Shire

1:22:02Sean Fennessey:I'm like Oh yeah Oh yeah The tree people

1:22:04Amanda Dobbins:The tree people Fellowship's the best I heard I know about the tree people

1:22:08Katey Rich:Ents The Ents Not the Adats The Ents

1:22:13Joanna Robinson:Guys I feel I feel really good about my influence on this podcast today So yeah We were like this before

1:22:18Chris Ryan:So you're taking away Roman Polanski's Oscar

1:22:19Katey Rich:Fix a little stuff here I'll take away Roman Polanski's Oscar Obviously You want to give him another one you say? You want to give him one? We're doing a special Oscars called the Romans. You want to give him one this year? No. I'm saying he just loses his class. Just so that Ed Harris and Amy Madigan cannot clap for him? Wait, I thought they didn't clap for... They didn't clap for Elias Zan. They probably wouldn't clap for Roman Plains Giles,

1:22:43Chris Ryan:so I get him that credit.

1:22:45Sean Fennessey:Were there any other people who testified in front of Who Act that you want to give Oscars to?

1:22:52Katey Rich:Oh, reverse the blacklist.

1:22:53Sean Fennessey:No, just anybody who squealed. Yes.

1:22:56Katey Rich:No, I'm not. I'm just trying to get...

1:22:58Joanna Robinson:No Oscars for squealers, but... In front of Congress, would you name names? Yeah, name your names. Eddie has. That was part of my, like, Chaplin research, because, right, Chaplin doesn't have a directing Oscar.

1:23:10Katey Rich:Wait, Charlie Chaplin or, like, the movie Chaplin? Charlie Chaplin. Okay, yeah. Una Chaplin.

1:23:14Joanna Robinson:Una Chaplin. And that part of it was blacklisting. Yeah. Yeah, so, part of it.

1:23:22Katey Rich:Okay, I'm up. I do not like Joseph McCarthy, by the way.

1:23:25Sean Fennessey:You don't, you're not lying. You love him. You think he is elite. 1939.

1:23:31Amanda Dobbins:Oh, yeah. Here we go. Left it on the board. He's not been touched on yet. Big Wiz? Yeah. I'm not going Big Wiz. Big Wiz.

1:23:38Sean Fennessey:I'm the Wizard of Oz.

1:23:40Katey Rich:You're not in the pocket of Big Munchkin?

1:23:43Sean Fennessey:I truly am. I truly am. I was listening to the Munchkinland song with Alice, and we were listening to it on Spotify with the lyrics on, and I was like, what in the world?

1:23:54Amanda Dobbins:It's really, yeah, when the children sit there and they're like, no, can we listen to that part again? Pretty weird. And lollipop guilt. I'm like, well, I don't know why you do this.

1:24:02Sean Fennessey:Well, there's like a full-blown autopsy transpiring during the song.

1:24:05Amanda Dobbins:Listen, munchkins have coroners too.

1:24:08Joanna Robinson:It's a well-running society.

1:24:09Katey Rich:She is listening to the 2032 version of Lil Peep on the 2032 version of SoundCloud.

1:24:15Joanna Robinson:And I believe, wait, isn't the official diagnosis she's not only really dead, she's really most sincerely dead? Really most sincerely dead. That's a technical term.

1:24:22Sean Fennessey:No whiz here. 1939 Robert Donat wins for Goodbye Mr. Chips no we're not come on we're not doing that that's not okay over Jimmy Stewart and Mr. Smith goes to Washington now this also has some serious ramifications if you do this and you're also ignoring

1:24:35Chris Ryan:Clark Gable here I forgot what the wins which I would not pick

1:24:38Sean Fennessey:I would pick Jimmy Stewart in this category because I'm not racist Mr. Smith goes to Washington that leads to Jimmy Stewart winning for the Philadelphia story which means Henry Fonda doesn't win for the Grapes of Wrath which means we have to wait for Henry Fonda to win in On Golden Pond, which is not a good win. And then we get to give Warren Beatty his acting Oscar because he never got one in Reds. So I'm giving Jimmy Stewart the 39 Oscar. And then everybody gets to be happy.

1:25:05Joanna Robinson:Okay. I can't believe the grace of wrath came back.

1:25:08Amanda Dobbins:Your head is kind of shaped like Jimmy Stewart's.

1:25:10Sean Fennessey:Thank you.

1:25:12Amanda Dobbins:Just thinking out loud.

1:25:14Sean Fennessey:Screen legend. One of the most beloved figures in Hollywood history. Yeah. And what about my my manner.

1:25:21Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, I mean, you're more you're more Jimmy than Carrie Grant. Yeah, that's not my thing.

1:25:26Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Okay. I feel good about that. Goodbye, Mr. Chips.

1:25:30Joanna Robinson:I've seen it. Okay. Wow. So many of these movies. Who's next? No, sometimes you seem like you get to a Goodbye, Mr. Chips and you're just like this one?

1:25:40Sean Fennessey:That's exactly how I felt. Okay, Katie has two selections. How are you feeling about your draft?

1:25:45Chris Ryan:I'm feeling good about my draft. I'm feeling a little like figuring out where to go next which is I think What's your spread right now?

1:25:50Joanna Robinson:Like what decades do you have on the board?

1:25:52Chris Ryan:Oh, what a great question. I've got 1989, 1974, 1941, and 2004. I've done pretty well. And you know, weirdly, I'm looking at 21st century picture snubs and having a harder time, even though this is like, I have been covering the Oscars in this period for such a long time. Is this where we do challengers? But I had the question of like, is when we were talking about the realistic nature of it, like as hard, I pushed that boulder up that hill for challengers and couldn't get there. Like, I don't think there was a world in which that was going to be challengers. So like, am I trying to take it more seriously?

1:26:20Sean Fennessey:I think there's one really good one left.

1:26:22Chris Ryan:In 21st Century. Yes. Okay. I think I'm going to get to that in a second, but I'm also looking at the fact that we have a big year left on the board. And I think I'm going to go, you guys might be mad at the pick I'm going to make here. I think I'm going to go real zag. I'm going to 1999. Someone's got to do it eventually. I'm going in Best Director and I'm going with the Wachowskis. We should have been nominated for The Matrix. Oh, yes.

1:26:45Amanda Dobbins:That's really good. That's really good.

1:26:47Chris Ryan:So 1990 is this famously awful Oscar year where like basically nothing that gets nominated or wins is what should be in there.

1:26:53Joanna Robinson:This is a real pro Ripley. Oh, no.

1:26:56Chris Ryan:So the only reason this isn't my Ripley pick is because I already did picture nom. Like I had some feelings about Ripley there too.

1:27:04Amanda Dobbins:I mean, Damon wasn't even nominated for Talented Mr. Ripley, but that's like a real, that should be his Oscar in my opinion.

1:27:09Chris Ryan:I kind of figured one of you guys would take Ripley already and then I would have that.

1:27:13Sean Fennessey:That's a good way to get into that. I mean, there are a lot of even nominee snubs there. Like Eyes Wide Shut, Matrix, and Ripley were not nominated for Best Picture. Yeah. Bizarre. That's crazy.

1:27:22Chris Ryan:You get Magnolia in there in a couple of categories, but not in picture. The screenplay winners, like I clicked into this. Would you believe that the Cider House Rules won Best Adapted Screenplay over Election, The Insider, and Ripley? That was Weinstein. Weinstein. Yeah. And The Green Mile's in there, too. All credit to the same. Also, terrible Michael Cain win. A Michael Cain win. Terrible Michael Cain win. Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's it's a real it's it kind of rivals 2018, I think, in terms of like, this is what we gave you. And this is what you came up with. Trying to explain to like younger film fans of like the spell that the Weinstein machine cast.

1:27:56Joanna Robinson:And, you know, they're like, what do you mean? Cider House rules. We all saw it. My dad used to quote it to us. Like, I don't know what to tell you.

1:28:05Chris Ryan:We all said, I guess this is what we have to do. I mean, again, I mean, we can know we can't get to it because we not in wildcard. but like original screenplay American Beauty wins over being John Malkovich Magnolia the sixth sense and top six turvy terrible but I mean I just stick with the Wachowskis in terms of the Matrix and when you think of like you picture 1999 in your head great film year but like the Matrix is right there what they invented what that movie did in terms of capturing the culture you were talking about this Joanna when something becomes big and it gets people's attention and it's technical and innovative and the Oscars were just so not ready for it on any level and now we can fix that so that's my pick okay Okay, so I guess I do have to do 21st Century, and I'm curious.

1:28:44Chris Ryan:I think this is where I just kind of have to go with my heart. And, Joanna, you're going to laugh at me because this is something we talked about too many times. I'm going to 2018, an Oscar year where a lot of things got really messed up. And you might think you know what I'm doing, but I'm going with first. I knew from the second you opened your mouth.

1:29:01Joanna Robinson:And I almost, when last night we were texting about Foxcatcher, I almost said, no, that's first man that you're not allowed to talk about on podcasts anymore.

1:29:09Chris Ryan:Well, you didn't. So I'm talking about it now. This is Damien Chazelle's follow up to La La Land. It is, I think, this gorgeous biopic that takes this idea of the great man and the great thing that you did. Let me cook. I also saw it at the Toronto Film Festival. I think I was pregnant and I'd been away from home for a week and I lost my mind. And I thought it was like the most emotional thing I'd ever seen. But 2018, again, that Oscar, that Best Picture lineup is not entirely trash. I mean, this is the year that Olivia Colman wins. So we have things that we can celebrate. but it's also the year of Bohemian Rhapsody.

1:29:41Chris Ryan:And hang on, what else am I going to yell about?

1:29:43Amanda Dobbins:I just deleted Bradley Cooper, A Star is Born from my, but in director, not actor. I had that thought as well.

1:29:50Chris Ryan:Vice gets into Best Picture. I don't even love Roma that much. Maybe we can yell about it. So I just, my heart is there with First Man in 2018 with all due apologies to A Star is Born, which I also love.

1:30:01Katey Rich:This is also a great example of a movie that is lost to recent history that may have had more eyeballs if it had got nominated. So this is actually how it did cinema a disservice by not getting nominated.

1:30:13Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Katie loves a dad movie and I love that about Katie. I love a dad movie.

1:30:16Katey Rich:Saw this at Cinerama Dome and it was fucking awesome. Thank you. Thank you.

1:30:21Chris Ryan:Yeah. Sean's shaking his head over there. No, I... Just a bunch of boys. They were. They were. And they changed history.

1:30:28Sean Fennessey:I think that it's a movie that people thought was like an old school Oscar movie and it's actually more of a new school Oscar movie but you couldn't tell because it was Chazelle and it was the space race and an astronaut, but it's really like a really quiet, interesting character study about a very sad person. Yeah. And it doesn't really play the way that a lot of Oscar movies tend to play for that reason, but it's a great pick and a great, great movie. So it's your turn. It's my turn, yeah. I interviewed Chazelle with Bill during that press run, which is kind of fascinating. I think Chazelle was sitting in the room with both of us and he was like, who am I supposed to be looking at here?

1:31:02Chris Ryan:He was in such a weird spot after La La Land. is because he didn't really have a chance.

1:31:07Katey Rich:Did you ever hear that interview? It's pretty funny. I have, yeah. It's also just like the riding shotgun on a Bill interview is one of those, like, I'm disassociating so hard.

1:31:18Sean Fennessey:We've both done it a few times. It's always interesting. Gosh, I haven't done Best Director yet. I think I've done every other category, haven't I? I have.

1:31:27Amanda Dobbins:Besides Wildcard.

1:31:29Sean Fennessey:Besides Wildcard. I'm just going to do it. But 1982, Richard Attenborough wins Best Director for Gandhi over Steven Spielberg for E.T., which is just absolute nonsense. I think that win is also not a great win. But this is Steven Spielberg, another one of these people who just had to wait weirdly too long and has since been kind of properly recognized by the Academy.

1:31:51Joanna Robinson:That much longer.

1:31:53Sean Fennessey:11 more years, right?

1:31:54Joanna Robinson:It doesn't win until Schindler's List. But that's still so early in his career, relatively, right? There's so much after Schindler.

1:32:01Sean Fennessey:I guess, but think about everything he accomplished between Jaws and Schindler's List and the way that he basically remakes Hollywood in his image. And so it's always interested in me that he didn't win across that period of time. They sort of made him wait. And the Attenborough win is obviously recognized as somebody who had been in Hollywood and in British filmmaking since the 1930s. Gandhi's okay. I revisited it for the Daniel Day-Lewis Hall of Fame because he's in one scene. I think it's his first film performance. and he's darn good in it. Are you going to run it back

1:32:34Joanna Robinson:for your Candace Bergen Hall of Fame? I might.

1:32:36Katey Rich:This is one of the great fuck-ups and best directing and the person who should have won didn't even get nominated. That's Ridley Scott.

1:32:44Sean Fennessey:I was also taking Blade Runner away from you in this one. In case you were looking for that.

1:32:47Amanda Dobbins:I think you took Paul Newman in the verdict which I still think is when he should have won. I agree with that too.

1:32:53Sean Fennessey:That's a rich year for Oscar travesties.

1:32:55Chris Ryan:I had Tron's visual effects down in a wild card option. I probably wasn't going to pick it but I'm just throwing that out there.

1:33:00Sean Fennessey:I saw you've been visiting those with your children.

1:33:02Chris Ryan:Tron took over my household. We pivoted from Star Wars to Tron. We just live in 1984 now. It's weird.

1:33:07Sean Fennessey:What's the word on the original Tron?

1:33:10Chris Ryan:Oh, it's a little boring, but we keep coming back to it. It's where all the visual stuff comes from. Sure. Yeah, my kid wants to draw stuff from Tron and there's more to get from the Tron movie than the other two.

1:33:22Sean Fennessey:This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day-to-day, but our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think that weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW, and the other drivers out there, grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn more at VW.com. This episode is brought to you by Walt Disney World Resort, the most magical place on Earth. Imagine a world of culinary capers in Remy's Ratatouille Adventure, or a world of mystical rivers and flying banshees in Pandora, the world of Avatar, or a world of dazzling lights under the stars in an all-new nighttime parade, Disney Starlight, Dream the Night Away.

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1:34:48Katey Rich:Chris, you're up. 21st century best picture nominee snub I've left.

1:34:55Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

1:34:56Katey Rich:2006 children of men. That was the big one that I said was still on the board.

1:35:01Amanda Dobbins:Oh my God, you just screwed over my Best Actress. Jim Marie Antoinette. No, I was going to do Marilyn Deborah Rose Prada for Best Actress. Oh yeah. That's okay.

1:35:09Katey Rich:Best Picture nominees that year, Departed, which won Babel, Letters from Iwo Jima, Little Miss Sunshine, and The Queen. What's your favorite of those?

1:35:18Joanna Robinson:He's a real Iwo Jima guy. Oh, Departed.

1:35:20Sean Fennessey:What's your second favorite?

1:35:24Sean Fennessey:Babel. Yeah. Just say it. Yeah, it's okay.

1:35:27Katey Rich:My wife had such a bad panic attack watching Babel. No, that was 21 grams.

1:35:32Sean Fennessey:That's my bad. That was kind of her worst nightmare. We're on a bus in the middle of nowhere.

1:35:37Katey Rich:Children of Men I'd put in for, honestly, for Babel. I'd put it in over Little Miss Sunshine and the Queen and Letters from Yojima, but take your pick.

1:35:46Sean Fennessey:You felt Clint should not have focused on the Japanese perspective? No, I thought that was an interesting gambit

1:35:50Katey Rich:to do the two films back to back.

1:35:55Amanda Dobbins:Children of Men. You always take away. from my P.O.V.

1:35:59Katey Rich:by accusing me of being a crypto fascist but I'm not. I want children and men to win.

1:36:04Sean Fennessey:I'm just asking questions. I'm just asking questions.

1:36:07Amanda Dobbins:Children and Men absolutely rocked us on 25 for 25. Yeah. On the revisit

1:36:11Sean Fennessey:we were like whoops, best movie ever made.

1:36:14Amanda Dobbins:One of two times I started crying on the podcast last year. So yeah.

1:36:17Sean Fennessey:That movie is incredible.

1:36:19Amanda Dobbins:Lights out. Yep. Really good. Okay.

1:36:23Sean Fennessey:Amanda, you're up.

1:36:24Amanda Dobbins:Oh, it's me. Okay. So I was going to do Meryl Streep in Devil Wears Prada in 2006 for my Best Actress winner snub over Helen Mirren and the Queen. Helen Mirren and the Queen, very good. That seems like a, it's just like a nice to be nominated situation for that one. It was kind of a, I don't know if it was a, if it was a makeup win,

1:36:40Sean Fennessey:what was it a makeup win for?

1:36:42Chris Ryan:It's more like a career win. And I feel like I didn't realize, I was like, oh, there hasn't been like some other big thing she would have won for.

1:36:48Sean Fennessey:Yeah, she never felt passed over.

1:36:49Joanna Robinson:It was just like, she's a star of stage and TV and prime suspect. Like she had been all over everything. And it's just like, Helen Mirren should have an Oscar.

1:36:57Amanda Dobbins:She cruised the last question.

1:36:57Sean Fennessey:It also feels like everyone was just like,

1:36:59Amanda Dobbins:oh, we're sorry for being mean to the queen because she's old now.

1:37:03Sean Fennessey:No one was thinking.

1:37:05Amanda Dobbins:I think non-Irish people were.

1:37:09Sean Fennessey:Maybe. I don't know. Were the English thinking about that, Chris? I'm sorry we were mean to the queen. In a box.

1:37:17Amanda Dobbins:So, but I do have Best Actress winner sub, so I'll just go with my backup. In 2003, Diane Keaton for Something's Gotta Give. Good. which was nominated and I think is like one of only two Nancy Meyers related nominations to ever happen. The other being screenwriting for Private Benjamin. But like I think Diane Keaton can have two Oscars in my book. It's fine with me, but this is like...

1:37:48Sean Fennessey:Book Club and Book Club 2.

1:37:50Amanda Dobbins:Have you seen both Book Club?

1:37:52Sean Fennessey:I saw Book Club. Okay. I haven't seen the second one.

1:37:53Amanda Dobbins:Tell me about the sequel. Book Club 2. Do they read Fifty Shades of Grey, the sequel? They go to Italy. Of course. And there's an incredible makeover sequence with Diane Keaton, too, where she like, Diane Keaton, she wears like, she gets a whole polka dot thing. They also perform the song Gloria. You're wearing polka dots. Gloria, like at some sort of restaurant opening somewhere in Italy.

1:38:17Sean Fennessey:Van Morrison's Gloria?

1:38:18Amanda Dobbins:No. Laura Branigan.

1:38:20Sean Fennessey:Get with it.

1:38:22Amanda Dobbins:Okay. Okay.

1:38:22Sean Fennessey:Got it. G-L-O-R-I-A yeah glory yeah

1:38:26Amanda Dobbins:I also know that one okay I don't know Something's Gotta Give is like one of the great modern rom-coms also you know a performance later in life about the being later in life which Best Actress doesn't always recognize are you taking away

1:38:43Chris Ryan:Charlize's Oscar and giving her another one or is it just a listen

1:38:46Amanda Dobbins:it's I haven't thought that that far about what she wants she can have it for the old guard or whatever Can she take Brie Larson's? Yeah. For Mad Max? Megatron or whatever.

1:38:57Sean Fennessey:Cypher? Cypher.

1:38:58Amanda Dobbins:Yes. She can take Brie Larson's. This is not my corner. She's leader supporting in Mad Max. What do you think?

1:39:02Sean Fennessey:Chris, do you like... Are you...

1:39:05Amanda Dobbins:Visually. It's a silent film.

1:39:07Sean Fennessey:Are you turned on by Charlize in the Fast films? No.

1:39:10Katey Rich:I've never seen Charlize's Fast films. Never seen? No. Wow.

1:39:13Joanna Robinson:How many are there?

1:39:15Katey Rich:She's in three?

1:39:16Joanna Robinson:She's in nine, ten. Right? Like eight, nine, ten. Eight, nine, ten.

1:39:20Katey Rich:I prefer her at the end of Doctor Strange.

1:39:23Joanna Robinson:Oh, that's her best role.

1:39:24Katey Rich:Actually, honestly, if we're really being real, my favorite Charlize is Atomic Blonde.

1:39:28Joanna Robinson:Yeah, I was going to say. Well, say Multiverse of Madness. Say its full name, you know?

1:39:32Sean Fennessey:Yes, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, directed by Sam Raimi. Please show some respect. Back on top. Sam's back on top, guys. Two weeks in a row. Send help. Okay. Are you up now, Joanna?

1:39:44Joanna Robinson:Two picks? I believe it's me. Okay. To finish out my entire thing. This is you wrapping it up? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in Best Picture nomination snub 20th Century, because I could not give Kurosawa the director slot that he deserved, I'm going to do 1956 Seven Samurai Best Picture snub. Good one. It's a great movie. Have you heard of it? Classic film.

1:40:14Sean Fennessey:Wait, what year?

1:40:16Joanna Robinson:1956, right? 56. that's a rough

1:40:19Chris Ryan:best picture lineup right there

1:40:21Sean Fennessey:what is it what's on the board

1:40:22Chris Ryan:Around the World in 80 Days Wins Bad Friendly Persuasion it's a movie I haven't seen I love William Weiler Giant in there yeah that's good The King and I and The Ten Commandments I think you can find room for the DCs yeah

1:40:35Amanda Dobbins:can you name all 10 of them

1:40:39Katey Rich:uh no

1:40:42Sean Fennessey:there's a great bit I just I just I just rewatched The Mask of Zorro. You ever see that movie? Yes. Antonio Banderas? It's a really fun movie. Why did you rewatch that? I'll tell you why. Oh, I can tell you why right now because it will have already happened. I was rewatching the films of Martin Campbell because we're doing GoldenEye on the rewatchables. Oh, fun. So that's the movie he makes immediately after GoldenEye. I did not do that. For GoldenEye, of course.

1:41:05Amanda Dobbins:This is what I do. You just replay the game like forever? No, I've actually just been living

1:41:08Katey Rich:with only Nokia-era technology for the last two weeks. So anyway, I bring it up

1:41:13Sean Fennessey:because there's a really funny moment where Catherine Seda-Jones' character goes to give confession and in the confession booth, you know, play acting as a priest is Antonio Banderas who's not a priest and she says, you know, Father, I've come to make a confession. I broke the fourth commandment and he pauses and he says, what could have caused you to have broken the most sacred of commandments and she was like, well, I wasn't loyal to my father and he was like, oh shit, like that's not the most sacred of commandments because he did not know obviously the fourth commandment was. So, you know, Let's name them all right now.

1:41:48Sean Fennessey:Let's go around the table.

1:41:49Chris Ryan:I have a Ten Commandments question, and this is maybe an L.A. thing you guys all know, but at the Chinese theater, the multiplex version of it, they just have the Ten Commandments from the movie. Those are the real ones?

1:41:59Sean Fennessey:Those are the ones from God, yeah.

1:42:03Chris Ryan:They landed in Los Angeles thousands of years ago. It was just like a random empty multiplex, and then there were incredibly old movie props. I couldn't believe it. You guys just live like this.

1:42:12Amanda Dobbins:It's definitely kill. It's weird, right?

1:42:14Chris Ryan:Usually it's costumes. Yeah, sure. yeah there were costumes in there too what adorable

1:42:17Amanda Dobbins:dresses was there I love how you went there right after that yeah did you get

1:42:20Joanna Robinson:yeah so killing cover the neighbor's wife right stealing false gods

1:42:25Amanda Dobbins:oh yeah

1:42:26Joanna Robinson:false gods what about stuff I had to take a whole year you honor that above all like taking taking your neighbor's stuff not just their wife but also their cattle that's stealing

1:42:34Sean Fennessey:that's stealing yeah oh stealing

1:42:35Joanna Robinson:what about keeping the sabbath

1:42:36Chris Ryan:that's one

1:42:37Sean Fennessey:oh sure yeah

1:42:38Chris Ryan:how many were you at

1:42:40Sean Fennessey:taking the lord's name in vain advancing the runner

1:42:42Chris Ryan:oh okay pardon me

1:42:43Sean Fennessey:advancing the runner you know just make a good baseball place. Sure, bunting. Yeah, that's a sin. We all have fans.

1:42:50Katey Rich:Can I ask for a prediction from you?

1:42:52Joanna Robinson:Yeah. What percentage of the GoldenEye Rewatchables will be spent on Favka Judson, do you think?

1:42:57Katey Rich:I would say 83%. That's okay, I guess. That is where the over-under starts. What's your name, Yelena Onatop? Yeah, Onatop. Very excited for this pod. She plays Baccarat, and she derives sexual pleasure from beating men up. No, from choking men to death with her legs.

1:43:12Chris Ryan:With her thighs. Which... Onatop. something I understand

1:43:17Sean Fennessey:okay who's up it's me Joanna has one more

1:43:20Katey Rich:just clarifying Joe Seven Samurai 1956 because the US release yes okay thank you and then last but not least

1:43:31Joanna Robinson:and this is just fixing history and not involving Albert Knobs in 1988 we are giving Glenn Close the best actress Oscar for Dangerous Liaisons Jodie Foster we're taking one of her Oscars away but she still has her silence of the lambs oscar so i'm not mad about it i've gone down this rabbit hole before and it is a really clean fix heidi i like it yeah um it doesn't honor the

1:43:56Amanda Dobbins:the three actresses nominated for working girl that year but okay tough really tough yeah it's

1:44:01Joanna Robinson:too bad but joe do you think not elite yeah that's what i said not deserving of two yeah i really don't care about movies about women and sexual assault you know like all that's what you said One Close in Dangerous Liaisons is like an absolute incredible performance. Very good. Dangerous Liaisons is like a perfect film. She's incredible in it. And this would have saved us a lot of agitation over the years. I never would have had to watch her twerk, you know, and that's really important. What did she twerk? The COVID Oscars. At the Oscars when she was nominated for Hilary Alley. Here's the question.

1:44:31Joanna Robinson:Would you still have to see watch Hilary Alley?

1:44:32Chris Ryan:So she did Dubai, I guess. Is that the same thing as working?

1:44:34Katey Rich:And that's in the Soderbergh Oscars? Yeah, Trace Asian Oscars.

1:44:37Chris Ryan:COVID Oscars. Did you watch that?

1:44:39Katey Rich:I did. Yeah. You don't remember? My memory hold back. It was really tough. Very tough. Okay.

1:44:46Amanda Dobbins:Okay. I have a wild card. And there's just a tremendous number of things here left, including the cute pick that I'm not going to do. Well, Ralph Fiennes in A Bigger Splash was taken. And then I'm not going to do Javier Bardem in Skyfall, even though I stand by that. I had Skyfall. Since I wound up being pretty 21st century heavy, I'm going to try to go back in time. and I kind of can't, I'm going to do Best Picture. Well, no, no, I can do whatever I want. It doesn't matter what category it is. Network didn't win Best Picture in 1976. So I'm going to take that. And I'm taking that over All the President's Men, another film that I absolutely adore that did also not win Best Picture because Rocky did.

1:45:35Amanda Dobbins:Where do you stand on Rocky? You know, we were in Philadelphia for Thanksgiving and we went to the top of the steps and we did the little pose and it's a great soundtrack and it's slow. It's really slow. Rocky is very slow. I mean, I prefer Creed to Rocky at this point just from a watching experience. That said, like I obviously wept.

1:45:56Sean Fennessey:Because Rocky's white?

1:45:57Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, that's, yeah. I wept during Creed when the Rocky theme song came in. So it's like, I honor the accomplishment. I'm just ignoring you at this point. In 2026, I want you to dig deeper.

1:46:10Sean Fennessey:You should have mixed it up. We're talking a lot of history, you know. So that's great.

1:46:18Amanda Dobbins:Anyway, I go with network because it, you know, predicted the world. Or like measured the world at the time that it was. Oh, okay. That was you. That was John Avilcon's ghost who just knocked that off.

1:46:32Sean Fennessey:Because he was like, this will not stand.

1:46:35Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, so I'm going with network over all the presents. President's Men because it is a trenchant work of social commentary. I mean, it's just one of the greatest movies ever made. Yeah, and All the President's Men. I mean, suck it again, journalism. I would say, I probably re-watched All the President's Men more, personally. Yeah, but Taxi Driver,

1:46:53Sean Fennessey:also nominated that year. Honestly, maybe even more resonant in our culture than Network or All the President's Men, to be honest with you. It would be dope if Amanda was like,

1:47:01Katey Rich:I only watch Taxi Driver in that year.

1:47:07Katey Rich:okay CR your last pick for my wild card inspired by the if this then that machinations that you guys have been doing let's go I think I can do this year wise 1978 and let's give Ennio Morricone best score for beating was that Giorgio Moroder that year or Saturday Night Fever? That's good. Hold on.

1:47:36Joanna Robinson:No, not Saturday Night Fever. This is fun. I'm being serious.

1:47:40Katey Rich:Giorgio Moroder from Midnight Express wins that year. Ennio Morricone wins here for Days of Heaven, clearing him from needing to win for Hateful Eight, which is kind of a mixtape of Ennio Morricone music, and we give it to Johan Johansson for Sicario that year. And he passes away just a few years after that. It's true.

1:48:01Sean Fennessey:You got Sicario into this pod.

1:48:03Joanna Robinson:You got Master and Commander and Sicario into this podcast. I'm really proud of you for that. We follow our hearts.

1:48:08Katey Rich:How can you not reward any more Cone for Days of Heaven?

1:48:11Joanna Robinson:That's true. You got First Man into this podcast. See? It's great.

1:48:16Sean Fennessey:Okay.

1:48:16Joanna Robinson:Movies. They're good.

1:48:18Sean Fennessey:I love movies. So I've got one more pick left. It's been Wildcard.

1:48:25Chris Ryan:Wildcard is overwhelming.

1:48:26Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, because we have so much stuff. I know. There's so much still on the table. I can't believe how much based on the list.

1:48:33Katey Rich:Perhaps the biggest one Everett ever got talked about here, right? The biggest, the biggest. One of the biggest travesty snubs ever or whatever, you know. What are you referring to? Saving Private Ryan. Oh. Shakespeare in Love.

1:48:45Sean Fennessey:Well, 98 is off the board. I know. I just mean we didn't do it. Yeah, we haven't talked about it. Well, you're a fan.

1:48:49Chris Ryan:Shakespeare in Love defender right here. I love Shakespeare in Love. Yeah.

1:48:52Amanda Dobbins:I like it as well.

1:48:53Sean Fennessey:Yeah.

1:48:54Amanda Dobbins:Okay, it's fine. It's fine. So it's the best actress winner.

1:48:56Sean Fennessey:It's like, you know. Your first man pick was really good, but it really stymied where I was hoping to go in Wildsguard.

1:49:03Chris Ryan:2018 is a rich text.

1:49:04Sean Fennessey:I really wanted to go Ethan Hawke in First Reformed. That's the year that Rami Malek wins for Bohemian Rhapsody. That was on my list. That's a rough win. And there are some interesting nominees in the category that year, but I love Ethan Hawke in First Reformed. I think I'm going to go with a very obvious one that always shocks me every time I hear it. And 1977 is still on the board, right?

1:49:24Amanda Dobbins:I was literally just Googling this. Yeah, like, yes.

1:49:27Sean Fennessey:Close Encounters of the Third Kind was not nominated for Best Picture. And that's just mind-blowing. And it's not exactly the most legendary collection of five that were nominated. It's The Goodbye Girl, Julia, Star Wars, notable, The Turning Point, and Annie Hall. Star Wars, I've never heard of it. Now, obviously, Star Wars and Annie Hall, at the time, acclaimed movies, huge hits, very important to movie history. The Goodbye Girl and The Turning Point have the same director?

1:49:54Joanna Robinson:So you're doubling down on your Justice for Spielberg in this era?

1:49:58Sean Fennessey:I think so. Spielberg doesn't have enough Oscars.

1:50:00Chris Ryan:This is my hot incorrect take. He has three Oscars, one for Best Picture, two for Director. It's not enough. Also, have you seen The Turning Point? No.

1:50:08Amanda Dobbins:It's really not good. Listen, and I love a ballet film

1:50:11Joanna Robinson:as much as the next person. I'm not here to defend The Turning Point. I just think it's interesting that of like seven slots, you need two to go to Spielberg.

1:50:19Katey Rich:Well, that is how I feel. Disclosure day is almost a positive. Yeah, that is truly how I feel.

1:50:24Chris Ryan:At the DGAs, everyone in that room was awed by being in the presence of Spielberg.

1:50:28Sean Fennessey:We just talked about this on the show. I mean, his aura is very strong in the room.

1:50:34Katey Rich:We should do 21st Century Spielberg for draft. Oh, that would be so fun. Great.

1:50:39Chris Ryan:Oh, is there a... Done. Yeah, for the three of us? Yeah, for Disclosure Day.

1:50:41Katey Rich:For Disclosure Day.

1:50:42Sean Fennessey:Great. Okay. So, yeah, I'll put Close Encounters of the Third Kind in my wildcard spot.

1:50:48Katey Rich:Okay. Did you have anything that was like...

1:50:51Sean Fennessey:It wasn't nominated, I think, because Star Wars was nominated, and they're like, surely we will not put two sci-fi movies. And he was nominated for director. So we need to give this guy a turn point, too.

1:51:02Sean Fennessey:um okay all right 77 takes my best weirdo wild card in one of my favorite categories which is

1:51:09Chris Ryan:original song which gets so weird all the time injustice is done constantly because new york new york uh made famous by frank sanatia is in the film new york new york uh which i don't think i would have nominated for oscars as a film but as a song it would have been in there uh so i try to think of some songs but there's like one other really huge really famous snub the movie that It taught me truly, I think, what an Oscar snub was, which is 1994 documentary feature Hoop Dreams. Y 'all know about basketball? You're familiar with the sport? This is possibly the best pick of this draft. Welcome to the ringer.

1:51:41Chris Ryan:I got to give credit to my friend Chris Feil of This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, which is about all of this stuff. So anyone who loves it can listen to them. But he picked that. They did snuts a couple of years ago, 100 of all time. And this was the number one pick. And I do think it is this definitive how the Oscars have blind spots, how they can fix it. But documentaries were really like, it's kind of a different world of docs back then. Like the winner is Maya Lin, A Clear, Strong Vision, which I guess would have been in theaters, but sounds like a real PBS kind of thing. And I think that's how the 90s were.

1:52:09Chris Ryan:But I mean, Hoop Dreams, it feels kind of like an extended evening news segment, which is more or less what it is. It's kind of public television, but it is long and extensive and it kind of sets this model for these long-term documentaries and having films about people who you might not necessarily see in film and television all the time. So it's again, yeah, like an iconic. I remember them making jokes about it, watching the Oscars as a kid and having to ask my parents what they were talking about. And it taught me a lot.

1:52:33Sean Fennessey:It's interesting that you picked that for a variety of reasons. One of the things that it reminded me of was Siskel and Ebert really went out of their way to praise this movie. They really devoted a lot of time to it on their show. They both loved it. I think in their best of the decades, that was very high on their list. And I think that that shows something that has kind of changed about the Academy Awards over the last 25 years or so, which is that they're much closer in line with critics than they used to be, especially in the last 10 years. There was a long period of time where it did feel very clubby at the Oscars, and a lot of things that would win was very much related to who you knew and how you knew them.

1:53:10Sean Fennessey:It was like Tammany Hall stuff. It was like backroom dealing. A lot of small groups talking about what they really like, and then hive minds forming around that, and then a lot of some curiosity around the outer edges of the nominees. Do you chalk that up to social media? I think that's it. I think a big part of it is the industry, like you pointed out, the top of the conversation has gotten much bigger. The campaigns start way earlier. There is a lot more kind of like opportunities to talk about things and to also like share the truth, for lack of a better phrase. We're also publicly. We can't let this happen.

1:53:40Chris Ryan:The chocolate is not getting in for best people.

1:53:43Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, but like Andrea Riseborough still just. Yes. And social media like helped its, you know, merry way. I remember. When was that?

1:53:51Katey Rich:Three years ago. Three years ago. them. There's just some goofy stuff. But you also got Oscar voters who live in Brazil

1:53:56Chris Ryan:and Hong Kong and all these places. They can't they don't have access to that kind of insidery thing. So it just isn't as powerful as it used to be by the sheer numbers of it.

1:54:04Sean Fennessey:Okay. Honorable mentions.

1:54:06Chris Ryan:Yeah. Oh boy. There's gotta be a few on the board for you.

1:54:08Katey Rich:Can I ask, before we do honorable mentions, did you guys have one? What would be your most controversial one?

1:54:16Amanda Dobbins:Oh, let's see.

1:54:18Katey Rich:What would have been your one that you were like, I'm taking away from what many people consider a deserving winner. I will give you an example just as a conversation starter. I think that Angelica Houston should have won for the Grifters instead of Kathy Bates for Misery. Just on my personal preference of those performances.

1:54:37Amanda Dobbins:Isn't Kathy Bates for Misery also 1990, which would be Julia Roberts for, well, I'm taking, I would have taken

1:54:44Katey Rich:Julia Roberts over Kathy Bates.

1:54:45Amanda Dobbins:Absolutely. And that also would have taken away Goodfellas and Goodfellas and Scorsese a director. Could have been a move. Yeah.

1:54:53Katey Rich:Kathy Bates is, you know, Kathy Bates is wonderful.

1:54:56Joanna Robinson:Here's one I was too scared to play, but I kind of wanted to. If we give Peter O'Toole the Oscar for Lawrence Arabia, we have to take it from Gregory Peck for To Kill a Mockingbird. I think that's funny. Okay. Addis Finch is like very important to me personally. And so, and then, and Peck doesn't have another Oscar, so I couldn't, I couldn't make that

1:55:18Sean Fennessey:but a tool doesn't have any Oscars.

1:55:20Joanna Robinson:Well, he has an honorary Oscar. In my book.

1:55:23Sean Fennessey:That's a good one. I don't know. I struggle to think of it like a super obvious. I don't think this one is as obvious, but I thought about it because I kind of did the reverse of what I was trying to do through some of this, which is I would take away Nicole Kidman's Oscar for the hours and I would give it to Julianne Moore for far from heaven. But then I would also take away Emma Stone's second Oscar for poor things and give it to Nicole Kidman for baby girl. like that like that sort of like some of those you're just swapping

1:55:51Joanna Robinson:gingers around some of my faves I know I also take away

1:55:55Katey Rich:Julian she went for Still Alice which is just not really a very good film yeah

1:56:00Joanna Robinson:oh yeah absolutely I was gonna give I mean that's the thing

1:56:02Amanda Dobbins:that got you you did Dragon Tattoo instead of Gone Girl being it's I that we didn't talk about Fincher enough as I guess yeah and we talked about him a lot

1:56:10Sean Fennessey:we got social network and Dragon Tattoo do we never do 07

1:56:13Amanda Dobbins:because I thought

1:56:13Joanna Robinson:I had Zodiac

1:56:14Chris Ryan:and we just never got to it

1:56:16Sean Fennessey:zero Oscar nominations

1:56:18Katey Rich:for Zodiac

1:56:18Joanna Robinson:no one wanted to ride for Heat at this table

1:56:20Katey Rich:I am obviously always riding for Heat but yeah

1:56:25Sean Fennessey:if they did a Heat is 95 yeah if they did a 30 year later Oscar vote amongst the entire active academy and maybe they should do something like this that would be really fun if they did something like this but if they did a just a typical vote you know where it's just like every movie is on the board every movie that was eligible then is eligible now would he win Best Picture?

1:56:48Katey Rich:It would get nominated within a 10. I don't know if it would win Best Picture.

1:56:52Sean Fennessey:Would it be nominated in a five? Yeah.

1:56:55Chris Ryan:For 1995. How many votes does Christopher Nolan have? Yes. I was noodling with 95 for Apollo 13 because I think the Ron Howard stuff. Can you read the nominees from that year? Yeah, so 95 Braveheart wins. Then the nominees are Apollo 13, Babe, Il Postino, colon The Postman, and Sense and Sensibility, great movie. And Ang Lee is not nominated for Sense and Sensibility.

1:57:13Amanda Dobbins:I thought about Ang Lee. That director lineup is, yeah,

1:57:17Chris Ryan:because Mike Figgis gets in for Leaving Las Vegas and Tim Robbins gets in for Dead Man Walking and then Babe, Ill Pustino. Those aren't bad movies. You know what,

1:57:23Joanna Robinson:just as for Ill Pustino. Okay. There's no sense in sensibility.

1:57:28Chris Ryan:No.

1:57:29Katey Rich:I prefer Heat.

1:57:31Joanna Robinson:I would have also, I was kind of trying to give John Cazale a supporting actor Oscar. That's nice.

1:57:36Chris Ryan:74 was tough. Were you trying to do it for, I think I had it for Godfather 2. What were you trying to do it for? No,

1:57:41Joanna Robinson:I can't do it for Godfather 2, but Dog Day Afternoon. Yeah. Maybe even Deer Hunter. That's a good one.

1:57:45Amanda Dobbins:Yeah, I couldn't do it. David Lynch from Mulholland Drive is still on the board in 2001, which is sort of crazy. Oh, yeah. 2001's still there. Yeah, it's still on the board.

1:57:55Sean Fennessey:Who won in 2001? Is that Ron Howard?

1:57:56Amanda Dobbins:Yes, for A Beautiful Mind. So if you get him in for a whole 13, then you fix all this. Yeah. 2017 is still on the board, which was just an incredible year. I mean, Shape of Water won, but that's Get Out, Call Me By Your Name, Lady Bird, Dunkirk, and Phantom Thread.

1:58:12Sean Fennessey:that falls into a really interesting category of Shape of Water pretty much dominated that whole season there was not really a sense that it wasn't going to win I think a lot of people does anybody here really ride for Shape of Water?

1:58:26Amanda Dobbins:no

1:58:26Sean Fennessey:we don't really love it and yet I don't know that it was like unjust because the Academy did want that we were just talking about this

1:58:35Joanna Robinson:that it was like on the East Coast it was the post right? everyone was like the post premiered super late And then we started talking to people in L.A. And they were like, no, Shape of Water. And I guess because it's about cinema in a sort of way. And it was just very.

1:58:49Chris Ryan:But if you said, like, you got to give it a call me by your name, Dunkirk, Lady Bird, or Get Out. Like, or Phantom of Thread, these five movies I love. I don't know which one I'm picking. Like, it's really hard.

1:58:57Sean Fennessey:They all would have been cool wins, too. Yeah, all of them would have been great wins. It meant something a little different to Academy history.

1:59:01Chris Ryan:I went for Darkest Hour. Like, I wouldn't give it to it. But there's just good. That's a good lineup. Another Katie special for Darkest Hour. Darkest Hour is great. Thank you.

1:59:09Katey Rich:Oldman over Daniel Day-Lewis that year is weird.

1:59:12Joanna Robinson:I think Willem Dafoe. Daniel Day-Lewis had three already. I know, but he's the goat. I really wanted Willem Dafoe

1:59:16Amanda Dobbins:on the Florida Project that year.

1:59:18Joanna Robinson:That was my... You didn't go in. Yeah, I know.

1:59:21Amanda Dobbins:2022, still on the board, I would have picked Todd Field for Tar, because I feel bad taking it away from Michelle Yeoh. But when you're talking about controversial ones, like Blanchett over Michelle Yeoh, I just like, it's an all-timer. Then she'd have three.

1:59:36Katey Rich:That was an early race. That's okay. She's really good. or we can take it

1:59:39Amanda Dobbins:I don't even what was Blue Jaws everything everywhere all at once just overwhelmed that was one of like

1:59:45Katey Rich:that got a little dirty

1:59:46Amanda Dobbins:oh and then you could give it to Frances Haas

1:59:49Katey Rich:for not nominated

1:59:51Sean Fennessey:didn't she post like a weird she broke the rules that's right she like reposted something that someone shared

1:59:57Chris Ryan:they can't handle social media there's just too many rules I don't think we ever did 2013 I think we thought we were and you talked about Leo yes we didn't do it that's another one of my big ones I can't believe I didn't do which is Tom Hanks and Captain Phillips who didn't even get nominated. That's a good snub. One of the worst, a proper snub. because he got nominated for a picture. I think Greengrass got in for director and it just made no sense. It's an amazing performance.

2:00:18Sean Fennessey:Yeah, that's the McConaughey year. Yeah.

2:00:21Amanda Dobbins:That's also Francis Ha, which I just said in a side conversation to Joe. We were talking about Francis Ha. Yeah.

2:00:27Katey Rich:We didn't do 97, right? No. So that's Boogie Nights. We needed like three more drafts on this episode. That's full Monty over Boogie Nights for the nominees.

2:00:36Joanna Robinson:Nobody gave Stanley like you break an Oscar right did we do 2001 no we did Chris of 2001 as picture yeah did he win

2:00:44Sean Fennessey:the Oscar for effects I think but he didn't he wasn't the producer of the film right I don't know

2:00:49Joanna Robinson:but he does not have a directing Oscar that's tough

2:00:52Sean Fennessey:yeah that's tough

2:00:53Katey Rich:from that same sort of genre I think I had did we do I'll see you. Did we do 64?

2:01:02Amanda Dobbins:I don't think so.

2:01:04Katey Rich:I would have done Sellers for Winner. Oh, Strange Love. Yeah. Strange Love. Yeah.

2:01:08Joanna Robinson:I was also trying to give Albert Finney an Oscar.

2:01:13Sean Fennessey:I almost went Strange Love over My Fair Lady just in Best Picture Winner. I feel like that would have been a good one. Also, did we do 94? We did 94?

2:01:23Chris Ryan:I did Hoop Dreams in 94.

2:01:24Sean Fennessey:Hoop Dreams, that's right. Pulp Fiction over Forrest Gump. Yeah. Or Shawshank, if you like. I was expecting to play.

2:01:29Joanna Robinson:Tarantino for director or Pulp Fiction at some point but you're like double Stevie did we do

2:01:34Sean Fennessey:do we do 2019 we didn't

2:01:38Joanna Robinson:no would you do Taylor

2:01:39Amanda Dobbins:that was another one where I was like there's it was such a rich field but also Parasite and Bong winning you don't want to undo I can't undo

2:01:47Sean Fennessey:the Parasite year yeah that would have been an interesting split if they had gone Tarantino in one of those two I would have given it to Sam Mendes

2:01:56Chris Ryan:for 1917 though it would probably furious

2:01:58Sean Fennessey:Your dad is popping out. No, but they would have. That was what the race was. That is what the race was.

2:02:04Joanna Robinson:My version of First Man is Colin Farrell, Banshees of Inishiran. That's a good one. I really wanted that to happen. Who did he lose to? Something bad.

2:02:14Sean Fennessey:It's okay. He got every award for the penguin.

2:02:18Amanda Dobbins:Did anyone get... Was Banshees 2019? 2022. Oh, okay. Wow, then I don't remember.

2:02:23Chris Ryan:I had two 2024 ones on there, and I didn't know if I wanted to go that recent, but I would have written for Marianne Jean-Baptiste and Hurtruths a huge best actress and then also Nickel Boys for cinematography yeah

2:02:34Sean Fennessey:that was Jomo Frey that was a really surprising yeah

2:02:36Amanda Dobbins:let me throw one more at you Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross challengers

2:02:41Sean Fennessey:surprised you didn't pull that on your wild card

2:02:42Amanda Dobbins:well you know I also had Daniel Patten for Marty Supreme in 2025 we just didn't get into the score category it's not too soon for me we got Ennio Morricone we got him fixed I know my opinions the minute they happen

2:02:55Katey Rich:mildly controversial we didn't do 79 would anybody take me going Roy Scheider over Dustin Hoffman for Kramer vs. Kramer Roy Scheider and all that jazz oh yeah I think that's a good take

2:03:05Sean Fennessey:definitely I would have just taken either Breaking Away or Norma Ray out and put Alien in Best Picture that was another series I had Alien no Alien in Best Picture

2:03:14Amanda Dobbins:or also Fosse for all that jazz yeah and Director oh that performance that we all love it's tough

2:03:23Chris Ryan:it's a bad one

2:03:23Amanda Dobbins:In 1987, I'd just like to give it to Broadcast News. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, that's...

2:03:30Chris Ryan:I really was like, can I take away Cher's Oscar and give it to Holly Hunter? And I can't. I can't do it. You can't do it. I know.

2:03:37Joanna Robinson:And I just can't. Listen.

2:03:38Sean Fennessey:Let me ask you like a point of order question. Do you think Sally Field should have two? No.

2:03:44Joanna Robinson:But they like her. They really like her. They really do. That's important.

2:03:48Katey Rich:My favorite one where I was like, I'm trying to wedge this in as a snub. but actually had a hard time making the argument to some extent. It was 92. Did somebody just say 92? I mean, I know we picked 92, right?

2:04:02Chris Ryan:Yeah.

2:04:02Katey Rich:But Last Mohicans didn't get nominated for Best Picture. And that's Unforgiven, Crying Game, Few Good Men, Howard Zen, Son of a Woman. I would make the argument probably taking Son of a Woman out.

2:04:13Joanna Robinson:Did you see the Instagram clip of Peter Claffey of A Night of the Seven Kingdoms fame saying that Last Mohican scores his amp up? Really? Yeah, great score.

2:04:21Chris Ryan:That should have been nominated. I agree.

2:04:23Katey Rich:who did that score Trevor what's his face Trevor Horn okay

2:04:28Sean Fennessey:and somebody else too Trevor Horn was he the loogie for the Minnesota Twins in 2013 no he was like it was like a guy

2:04:35Katey Rich:who was in like a new wave group who then did like moved into soundtracks and then I think Michael Mann like fired him and brought somebody else in

2:04:42Sean Fennessey:let's recap our picks we had seven picks each who should go first since Joanna picked first you go first

2:04:48Joanna Robinson:okay great will you show me yes so in In Best Picture nominee snub, I picked Seven Samurai, 1956. In Best Picture nominee snub, 21st Century, I picked In the Moon for Love, 2000. In Best Picture winner snub, I picked Mad Max Free Road, 2015. In Best Actor winner snub, I picked Harrison Ford in Witness, 1985. In Best Actress winner snub, I picked Amy Adams in Arrival, 2016. In Best Director winner snub, I picked Alfred Hitchcock, Rebecca, 1940. In Wild Card, I picked Glenn Close, Dangerous Liaisons, 1988. And I feel great.

2:05:21Sean Fennessey:Great job.

2:05:22Joanna Robinson:Thanks. Good lineup.

2:05:23Amanda Dobbins:Okay.

2:05:23Sean Fennessey:Amanda.

2:05:24Amanda Dobbins:In Best Picture nominee snub, 20th Century, I have Bringing Up Baby, 1938. In Best Picture nominee snub, 21st Century, I have The Dark Knight, 2008. In Best Picture winner snub, I have This Social Network, 2010. In Best Actor winner snub, I have Denzel Washington for Malcolm X, 1992. In Best Actress winner snub, I have Diane Keaton, Something's Gotta Give, 2003. Best Director winner snub, Wes Anderson, The Grand Budapest Hotel, 2014. and in Wildcard, Network. Best Picture winner, 1976.

2:05:56Sean Fennessey:Great roster.

2:05:57Katey Rich:CR. In Best Picture nominee snub, 20th Century, I took 2001 A Space Odyssey from 1968. Best Picture nominee snub, 21st Century, I took Children of Men from 2006. Best Picture winner snub, I took Goodfellas from 1990. Best Actor winner snub, Jeff Bridges, not nominated for The Big Lebowski in 1998. Best Actress winner snub Betty Davis from All About Eve 1950 Best Director winner snub Peter Jackson Two Towers Domino Effect Peter Weir Wild Card Ennio Morricone Days of Heaven Best Score 1978 Also a Domino Effect one That's a great draft

2:06:37Joanna Robinson:Thanks

2:06:38Sean Fennessey:In Best Picture nominee snub 20th Century I took Singing in the Rain from 1952 In Best Picture nominee snub 21st Century I took The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo from 2011 In Best Picture Winner's Snub, I took Brokeback Mountain, 2005. In Best Actor Winner's Snub, I took Jimmy Stewart, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, 1939. In Best Actress Winner's Snub, I took Ellen Burstyn in The Exorcist, 1973. In Best Director Winner's Snub, I took Steven Spielberg for E.T. And in Wild Card, I took Close Encounters of the Third Kind as a Best Picture nominee snub, 1977. Katie, you're up.

2:07:11Chris Ryan:Okay. In Best Picture nominee, 20th Century, I have Do the Right Thing. Best Picture nominee 21st Century First Man Best Picture winner Citizen Kane 1941 Best Actor Jack Nicholson Chinatown 1974 Best Actress Kate Winslet Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind in 2004 Best Director The Wachowskis for The Matrix in 1999 and then Wild Card is Documentary Feature Hoop Dreams in 1994 Hell yeah Good job Katie

2:07:39Sean Fennessey:Pretty good draft guys I think I'm going to have 10 more of these Yeah Appreciate all your hard work That was a cool idea It was good good to go thanks dungeon master

2:07:49Sean Fennessey:who's gonna get really fucking reamed this year who's gonna be the person in this year's Oscars who are like shit we gotta draft this one we do this again in 25 years you know who I'm worried

2:07:58Chris Ryan:about is Jack Fisk for Marty Supreme have you guys talked about this on the show yet no legend who has never won and did incredible work on Marty Supreme

2:08:06Sean Fennessey:we talked about Jack Fisk yeah he was a guest on the show oh that's right of course

2:08:09Chris Ryan:yeah I interviewed him he's like the nicest person I've ever talked to and Frankenstein just is kind of like hovering around is this big craft type of thing I'm going to be a fucking brat about that if that happens I feel like Jack Fisk will be fine and we will be worried yeah

2:08:23Sean Fennessey:okay now Amanda and I are going to talk about Surat

2:08:30Sean Fennessey:okay it's just us now we dispensed with the drafters

2:08:34Amanda Dobbins:and changed clothes

2:08:35Sean Fennessey:we changed clothes it's a different day let's just be honest folks we're here to talk about Surat now I've just completed an interview with Oliver Lachey, the writer and director of Surratt. And my feelings are shifting on the film. Okay. Okay. Oliver was an incredible guest. Jack Sanders, that was his favorite guest of all time.

2:08:58Amanda Dobbins:Wow, I'm so excited.

2:09:00Sean Fennessey:Genuinely the best opening to an interview we have ever done.

2:09:03Amanda Dobbins:Don't say any more.

2:09:04Sean Fennessey:I don't want to spoil it, but let's discuss Surratt, his film. So, you know, he co-wrote it with Santiago Filol, and it really only stars one actor of note, Sergei Lopez, who's, you know, the rest of the actors in the film are non-professional actors who he scouted and found at raves. And the premise of the film is that this Sergei's character, Luis, is traveling through southern Morocco with his son Esteban. They're searching for his daughter, who has been missing for five months. She was last seen at a dance festival in a desert. as they travel from party to party they hear of a semi-mythical rave near the border of Mauritania so they go on this kind of epic road trip and the film kind of descends into madness from there this film premiered at Cannes last May and I had a chance to see it over the summer I have personally been quite surprised by the momentum it has picked up not among cinephile crowds where I think it is quite divisive but amongst a slightly more normie award season academy.

2:10:07Sean Fennessey:We talked on our shortlist episode about how it had been recognized in several categories there, despite its more unusual nature. So you finally saw it.

2:10:17Amanda Dobbins:I did. And I thought I knew what the twist was, but I did not, which was good. So I went in pretty blind, which I hope other people will. And I kind of, I don't think you should listen to the interview if you haven't seen the film.

2:10:34Sean Fennessey:We didn't get into a lot of details, but I will say I'm putting this discussion and interview at the end of an episode that a lot of people will already dig because I think it's going to take time for some people to catch up to this. Maybe they can circle back to it if they haven't seen it.

2:10:46Amanda Dobbins:I'll speak broadly. I can spoil it in the first two minutes. There's a man in an eagle's jersey at the rave in wherever they are. Yeah, Morocco. Morocco. And I noticed it because my brain is diseased. That's how I'm living these days.

2:11:01Sean Fennessey:That was your trauma for this film.

2:11:03Amanda Dobbins:I think that the first, like the big evil scene worked on me and didn't feel as manipulative as I think maybe you felt about it or some, you know, some others have. And then as the film went on, there were some other, I wasn't willing to go all the way with it.

2:11:26Sean Fennessey:So I think I land in a somewhat similar place. I received an email from a friend who was like, you have to talk to Oliver. and I'm not over the moon for Syrah but I am kind of fascinated by it and it is actually somewhat similar to me to how I feel about Wuthering Heights which we talked about on last week's episode where it's sort of like this is undeniably got some juice like there are a couple of moments that are unforgettable and burned into my mind and I said that to Oliver but I'm also trying to work through this idea of how was I being manipulated and what does it mean to be manipulated what is the responsibility of cinema that was a big part of the conversation that we were having and based on his mission for what he's trying to do in this film he clearly succeeded because he did a few things that I was affected by that I thought about a lot that I still don't know if I think that they are just like merely provocation or communicating something more powerful there were times when we were talking where I was confused by what he was saying about how he saw his film relative to what I saw and we should say that several of the characters experience like terribly violent ends and that the movie gets quite crazy at a few different moments.

2:12:34Sean Fennessey:And it is otherwise much more of a sort of a road movie where you've got this kind of band of people who are brought together on this, you know, these paired missions. One, you know, this family in search of their daughter and then these ravers who are always in search of like the next rave, the next party, you know, the next step in the stage of life where you're sort of like evading a normal life and living this much more itinerant experience where you're finding the next party every day. And I thought the performances were pretty good. I think they're not asked to do a ton. They're more asked to be themselves.

2:13:08Sean Fennessey:I think the music is obviously pretty transfixing and it gives the film a heartbeat. The first shocking moment, which if you don't want the movie spoiled for you, don't listen anymore, but Esteban, the young boy who's with his father throughout the film, is playing on the side of a ledge when they're going across a kind of like Fitzcarraldo sorcerer style, you know, like a mountain pass? Yeah, a mountain pass. And he's playing on the side of the ledge with his dog and his father tells him to get in the car.

2:13:43Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

2:13:44Sean Fennessey:So that he's not playing on the ledge. And he gets in the car and the car begins rolling backwards and it rolls off the mountain. Right. And Esteban falls to his death.

2:13:52Amanda Dobbins:Yes.

2:13:54Sean Fennessey:And up until this point, the film has a very, I'll say, European feel, which is that it's taking its time. It's a bit searching. It doesn't have what you would describe as like a driving plot.

2:14:06Amanda Dobbins:No, but it does have a lot of driving. It's not not evocative of Mad Max Fury Road just in the sense of like desert scenes, caravans, and a group of characters who are more symbolic than they are like fleshed out people with a ton of dialogue.

2:14:23Sean Fennessey:And similarly, a world with people kind of on the outside edge of society, you know, people who are not part of the common power structure. That death fucked me up when I saw it. And I was a little mad about it and I felt like it was a real poke in the chest.

2:14:39Amanda Dobbins:Well, it's not just the death. It's the entire scene because it's a long scene, purposely constructed. And the minute that Esteban is asked to move from the ledge, you're like oh no you just let you and you know and you have to that that is an achievement of filmmaking it totally is it it explains to you exactly what is going to happen and then tortures you throughout the rest of the scene until it does happen and the way that it does it it involves one of the other vehicles in the caravan being stuck and these people are trying to get it moving and they have a moment of you know of triumph they get something you know you think the peril is over here and then the peril is very quickly over there.

2:15:23Amanda Dobbins:And, but also it's a three minute scene that feels like 45 minutes because again, it communicates to you in really classical filmmaking style. Like what is going to happen in the worst possible way. I thought it was really effective. I was like, you got me and I'm, I'm pissed off. My husband watched Surratt with me and then went to bed after that scene. He was like, I got it. I'm good. I'm going to bed.

2:15:49Sean Fennessey:I think a lot of people will have that reaction. You know, I do think it is, there's a kind of purposeful punishment. Oliver kept saying, you have to die. You have to die. Like that's an idea that he felt very strongly about. And I'll also note that he's 6 '7 with long hair and strikingly beautiful and eloquent and an artist and a European man with a wonderful accent. and I look like a dead scarecrow next to him and it was just not a good look for me. But I hope people will enjoy it. I think what happens next, the movie goes into like the land of the ecstatic. It kind of transforms from something that feels more grounded into a bit of a kind of like a negative fantasia of like destruction and just when you think you've become free or punished for it and what's been sown in the land, these kind of tools of destruction that are all through these parts of the world will ultimately punish innocent people.

2:16:49Amanda Dobbins:You know, once... The more things you add onto it, the harder it is for everything to hold up, in my opinion. So by the time that, again, spoiler alert, the minds went off and I was like, oh, fine. You know, I was startled. I'd had the effective jump scare quality. and that but I didn't feel as I didn't even feel manipulated if that makes sense I didn't feel drawn in enough to then be like oh okay well now I'm really pissed off at you I just kind of

2:17:23Sean Fennessey:yeah I think things are getting out of hand yeah I think that filmmaking in that final section with the landmines is very is really well done physical filmmaking um you really do feel the the boom and the crash and the sort of like the shock of the moments. But I similarly didn't have the same emotional thunderclap feeling that I had with Esteban's death. Still, accomplished, interesting movie. Yeah. Clearly a lot going on. He said that this movie's 20 years in the works. He's made three previous films. They all played a can, but they didn't really make their way to America the way that this one has.

2:17:58Sean Fennessey:And I'm really, I'm intrigued by him. and I hope this was a

2:18:04Amanda Dobbins:formative experience for you

2:18:06Sean Fennessey:well we'll see I mean we'll see how much it changes me you know I think like I said he had you're fond of saying that someone has power it's undeniable that this man has power and you'll be able to see it right now let's go to my conversation with Oliver Laschet

2:18:25Sean Fennessey:very happy to be here with Oliver Laschet we're here to talk about Surat I know everyone's saying where did this movie come from to you, but I want to know when it started. What happened? What was happening the day you started thinking about this movie?

2:18:38Oliver Laxe:Sirat comes from... Ah! I understand. Yeah.

2:18:44Sean Fennessey:Ah! Did you have a bad day?

2:18:47Oliver Laxe:Yeah, yeah. I mean, my creative process is really visceral, you know? I'm not going to the office to work, you know, to make a film about and with the history of dialoguing with this filmmaker and this other filmmaker, you know, I mean, it's more, I have images at the beginning, intentions and my creative process is really related with my personal development process. So in a way I always on an inconscient way, I'm like exploring regions of my being we'll say and and I wanted to die I wanted to die making the film yeah I wanted to I think when you watch Seurat you die what was your experience Sean?

2:19:43Sean Fennessey:I felt a little violated honestly I did I found it violated yeah I found it I found it really hard to take and I mean that in a in a in a positive way but I have some questions about that but I want to wait for that for a second for kind of how you maybe worked with the audience or against the audience at times with our expectations. Not against.

2:20:04Oliver Laxe:I'm trying to take care of the audience radically. That was the best way I found to take care of the spectators that is proposing to spectators a catharsis, you know. Cinema is a place for catharsis. A theater, you know. And I think we have to learn to die before dying. That was my intention also with the film. I think people who are from Western countries, we are escaping from death in a way. Before we had a lot of ceremonials, a lot of rite of passage to meditate and experiment death. That is the best way to be more free and more emancipated.

2:20:46Sean Fennessey:So feeling that way, you wanted to put that feeling on screen specifically? Is that where that comes from? Or is it just you're trying to kind of like conjure a visual representation of that experience that you were having?

2:20:58Oliver Laxe:I think that as a spectator, as I said, you die. I mean, you are confronted to your limits in a way. You are on a subtle and inconscient way. When you watch Seurat, you are confronted of your, can I say, smallness? Sure. And I think that when the film finished, I don't want to generalize. I mean, everybody feels it in a different way, but when the film finishes, in a way, you are more alive. There is a feeling of a positive feeling, you know. This is the mystery of existence, Sean. You know, sometimes, you know, it's through pain that we feel freedom, you know. I mean, I don't get birth, but look, the speech of experiences of women who get birth, you know, it's really painful.

2:21:54Oliver Laxe:They die. They die. But the level of transmission, the level of wisdom that life gives to them, you know, when they get birth, and the energy, the amount of love that they experiment, you know, when that happened finally, you know. Physically, they die, you know, but they want to do it again. I mean, this is what Sirat explores in a way, on a subtle and inconscient way.

2:22:22Sean Fennessey:At the risk of going to the end too quickly, when we're at the end of the film and we're on that track and we're in the back of that truck, are those characters reborn then in your mind? Totally.

2:22:39Oliver Laxe:Sirot is shock therapy. And yeah, there is a process of death and rebirth. And you are transformed. I'm one of these people who feels that life takes care of you all the time, even the times when life shakes you.

2:23:01Sean Fennessey:Answer some practical questions about this film for me. It had been six years since your previous film. Were you working specifically on this in the duration of that time?

2:23:12Oliver Laxe:I mean, yes, I'm a slow filmmaker, but I'm also working in an organization where I live in the mountains in Galicia. I mean, I'm not just focused on cinema, you know. I'm also studying psychotherapy gestalt, you know. It takes me time. That is related also with the films I do. But yes, working in cinema, I like to be everywhere, you know. I'm really an artisan, controlling all the aspects of decoration, you know. I mean, it's not a work for me making a film, you know. It's not, and so I don't know how many years will take me the next month.

2:23:55Sean Fennessey:With this one, how do you find the right places to go to shoot this film?

2:24:01Oliver Laxe:So I was living in Morocco for 10 years, so I really know this country and the mountains of Morocco are mountains that really give me a lot of serenity. You are in front of the creation of the planet, all this geology, all the layers. I like this. And the desert. The desert is a place really transcendental. You are obliged to look inside on a desert.

2:24:33Oliver Laxe:You can't distract yourself. There is nothing where your eyes can be distracted. You have to look to the sky or to look inside. That is the same thing.

2:24:43Sean Fennessey:The locations are fascinating. Are the desert raves, are those based on real experiences that are happening? Are those events that are happening? Had you attended many of those before you put this on screen? Can you tell me your experience doing that?

2:24:56Oliver Laxe:Winters in Europe are tough. And also because ravers, they are living in the tracks or they are living on cabins. And they are travelers. I mean, raving is not just about partying. It's also about traveling. So they usually are really interested to meet other people. In a way, also, rave culture is a kind of neo-tribalism. So, for example, in Morocco, they like to meet a lot of Berbers and to be with them. And so they escape from the winter and they fix their tracks. There are like three, four mechanicians in Morocco that they're specialized to form tracks. And they dance in the desert or in locations that has something.

2:25:58That way of living is extremely foreign to me. I could not imagine in my, you know, suburban existence living in a major American city with my family and not spending my time looking for that kind of exaltation, right?

2:26:14Sean Fennessey:It seems like it's like an ongoing journey to find release, right? To find this like this catharsis that you're talking about. What do you think is driving the people who live that way and then who you're portraying in the movie?

2:26:29Oliver Laxe:I think that rave culture as art, as spirituality, is going through your limits. So it's not for everybody.

2:26:42Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I really couldn't see it for myself. How did you find the actors?

2:26:48Oliver Laxe:We did a wild casting through raves and communities. So we had a track. We were like going, looking for a family, you know? So we were picking people everywhere. Some of them, they are friends of mine. And we were looking for fragility. That's what we love of people. And I think as spectators, we are fragile and we like to see fragility in front of the, in the image.

2:27:21Sean Fennessey:How do you know someone's going to be able to give a good performance if they're a non-professional actor?

2:27:27Oliver Laxe:if you are touched by a human being a camera can capture this can capture the beauty after it depends on you I trust the people I don't trust myself sometimes you have the ability to capture their soul their fragility a mystery sometimes not but it's a matter of time you know so that's why I take so much time to make my films because these people were afraid to be shoot obviously so they were coming we spent a lot of time at home we were going to the forest to work we were watching films together making rehearsals and and that takes time

2:28:15Sean Fennessey:what films were you watching together?

2:28:17Oliver Laxe:so we were watching a lot of American films Tulane Blacktop from Monty Hellman Masterpiece Apocalypse Now what else Vanishing Point Amazing Phil Easy Rider we were watching I remember we watched

2:28:42Sean Fennessey:Days of Heaven the Malick film a lot of road classics American road classics I really

2:28:51Oliver Laxe:obviously we were watching Tarkovsky's and Bresson films that are so important for me. But this film, I think that dialogues a lot with the American cinema from the 70s. These movies that I told you, did you understood them? What they are talking about?

2:29:13Sean Fennessey:I think most of those movies are kind of not meant to be literally understood, but they're kind of metaphors for existentialist despair. you're always going towards something and it's still going to be painful at the end to your point

2:29:25Oliver Laxe:and you feel the time when they were made you feel you feel the society you know a 70s society that was crazy here you know all the polarity between you know the war in vietnam all the contracultural movements uh use of psychedelics in psychology you know i mean and you feel this energy on the films you know I mean they were doing films like if it was the last one you know when you're showing

2:29:53Sean Fennessey:the films to the cast and the crew are you saying to them I want you to get into the mentality the head state of these kinds of film this is the kind of film we're making or is it just I want to share this with everyone tonight and this is a way we can unwind when I talk to who when you're showing the film when you're screening the film to anyone who's associated with the movie associated yeah

2:30:13Oliver Laxe:And what is the question?

2:30:14Sean Fennessey:Well, were you showing these movies specifically to other people who were in the film?

2:30:19Oliver Laxe:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were, to the actors, yeah. We were working on these films. I wanted them to feel what we, that our film is a gesture. And we wanted to dialogue also with our time. You know, we wanted to capture the fears and the dreams that we have nowadays. Hopefully, hopefully in 20 years, people will watch Sirata and will say, this film was talking about something from his time.

2:30:46Sean Fennessey:How much of what you put on the page actually turned out in the film? Were you very close to what you wrote through? Yeah, totally.

2:30:54Oliver Laxe:The script is 50 pages. It doesn't mean that it didn't take time to write. I mean, we were working for 10 years in the script. But for me, less pages, better script. Why? Because we have a radical trust in the tools, in the cinematic tools of expression, you know. Cinema has a particular way to evoke things, to say things. And so it's a balance, my scripts, between dialogues and things that you want to say, but also images that wants to evoke things, you know. and yes it was a really technique shooting to answer you only seven weeks 35 days so you you cannot improvise you know we have a lot of sequences action sequences so that are difficult to shoot so yeah sometimes orthodox script writers they they tell me that there is no script in my films.

2:32:04Oliver Laxe:And I take this as a compliment, you know, because you have to hide the proof of the crime, you know? What do you see? The, the, this mark. The fingerprints. The fingerprints when you make a, when you commit a crime, you know, in art it's, you have to hide, you know, your intention. So.

2:32:25Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I think that you have an amazing ability to shock. You know, you really took my breath away a couple of times in the film. And I see a lot of movies. And I know a lot of where most movies are going, I feel like. And so maybe that's some of what you're describing. That there's this ability to... I feel like part of the success of the film, from my perspective, is that it feels like you're finding it as it's going. Because the characters are finding... They're on this journey and they're finding something. Like life.

2:32:51Oliver Laxe:Sure. Like life. I mean, life is like this. I mean, you start the day on a comedy and you finish on a drama or you are depressed and suddenly you fall in love, you know. And life never calls you and tells you, Sean, be careful. Tomorrow you're going to have a test, you know. And we like crisis. We like crisis. Crisis is the way that life has to shake us, to make us grow, to make us look inside. And this film has also the ability. I have a lot of relation with psychoanalysts and psychotherapists. And the film makes something that these people make in therapy, that is to suspend your rational side of the brain, you know, in order that all the level of perceptions emerge.

2:33:46Oliver Laxe:Sirat is a film that you watch with the body. Not with the brain. You feel it.

2:33:55Oliver Laxe:But I think that this is the essence of cinema. Now, obviously, with all the series and all the influence that the television has in cinema, there are a lot of films that they don't have not one image, not one that penetrates you, that shakes you, that touches you. you know but this is the essence of cinema I mean yesterday at the launch nominees yes a lot of people tells me wow I the images are still in me after three four months watching the film or but and I like they say this to me but come on this is the essence of cinema every film has to provoke this on you you are going to a theater you know that is a kind of spaceship where I mean And we had all of us this experience going to a cinema and get transformed.

2:34:50Oliver Laxe:When you go outside the cinema, you feel, wow, you feel a fever in your body, right?

2:34:59Sean Fennessey:Interesting that you say that too. And you use the word provoked and I wanted to ask you about that. So some of the criticisms that come in on the film are that it is a provocation, that it is a manipulation almost of your expectations, of your feelings. But you don't feel that.

2:35:11Oliver Laxe:No, I didn't read much these critics. Okay.

2:35:14Sean Fennessey:Well, I'm curious how you respond to hearing that.

2:35:17Oliver Laxe:That's your critique.

2:35:18Sean Fennessey:No, no. This is something that I've read. But I did feel, I said violated because specifically watching the car go over the ledge, which I will not, going off the mountain, I will not forget that. While watching the film for the first time, and I watched it for a second time last night, I was struck. Very, very hit hard by that image and that feeling in Sergei's, just his face looking over the edge of the mountain. But, you know, that is a thing that it feels like a choice being made in a film that is otherwise. It's kind of like, you know, you've really lulled us into this sense of this journey, you know, and there's confusion and there's frustration on the journey.

2:35:57Sean Fennessey:But it is not this violent feeling of shock and pain that you thrust into the middle of it.

2:36:03Oliver Laxe:Yeah. I mean, I'm living on a world where innocent people die, you know, and it's something that we have to be confronted, you know. as I said before we have to learn to die before dying I mean if you want to be more free and more emancipated if you want to suffer more it's good medicine you know watching films like Sirat I mean it's I think that more you confront yourself to this less fears you are going to have at the same time I think that thanks to cinema we feel that we love these people. We are not, Sirat doesn't have a skepticism or cynicism. I mean, we are shooting these people with a lot of love.

2:36:52Oliver Laxe:And this is obvious. I mean, the way they take care of the others, the values they have. You know, this is something that we have in Western countries. We are too worried about death. On a traditional country or from a traditional or spiritual perspective, to die is not a problem. You die when you have to die. The question is, how do we die? Are we dying with dignity, protecting our values or not? And the characters in Sirat, they die with dignity, I think. And also, they provoke things in a subtle way, you know? I mean, also thanks to the use of the sound and the music, you know, I think that there is a balance.

2:37:43Oliver Laxe:Obviously, you know, I don't know if you've done a ceremony. It's painful. When you make a ceremony, you have to look inside and it's not cool sometimes. The medicine, it's bitter, you know. but we had the capacity to put a little bit of honey in the edge of the glass so you drink the medicine of Shirat thanks to, yeah, I think.

2:38:15Sean Fennessey:I'm curious about the music and the sound design because it does, it's part of what lulls us a little bit into this sense of, I don't know, not what you expect from rave music, but there is a pulse, a heartbeat, a kind of like a consistent, almost calming feeling to the score at times as we're going through the film. And then it does ratchet up and we become more tense throughout it. But was all of the music written after the film was shot? Was there any conversation beforehand? How did that work?

2:38:45Oliver Laxe:So first, I was dancing these images that I had at the beginning. So music is really related from the beginning, electronic music. The way I write my scripts is really atmospherical, like music. And I always add links from music, you know, in my scripts. And I did a casting of musicians, and Candren Roy was perfect. I mean, he's extremely talented. And we had the chance to work one year before the starting of the shooting. I really wanted to have the mood of the film, you know, work before. And that was the goal, you know, to make images that you could hear and to make music and sounds that you can watch, you know, to really build on this culture, really organic.

2:39:38Oliver Laxe:I think Sirat is sorcery, a sorcery, you know. I mean, it's images, the proportions. It's really alive, you know, the grain of the 16 millimeter, the distortion of the electronic music, you know. Yes, it was luxury to work in that way.

2:40:00Sean Fennessey:Did you have, were you making images based on the music that you had heard that he had composed? No, we didn't change much the script after having the music.

2:40:12Oliver Laxe:We were editing. We found obviously different connections between the images. Yes. The plan that we had with the music was at the beginning to feel something more cathartical. You know, the techno, the kick, you know, it's more physical. but slowly the adventure, the film is becoming more metaphysical, you know, and so we are more with sounds, more ethereal, transcendental, you know. We approach, we are approaching sacred music at the end of the film. So the ceremony, it's tough.

2:40:53Sean Fennessey:Yeah.

2:40:53Oliver Laxe:But at the end, someone gives you an orange juice.

2:40:58Sean Fennessey:I feel like part of the reason why some Western audiences who are very cynical maybe struggle to confront some of the things that you're doing in the film is because also there's just a lack of spirituality too in our culture, like a waning spirituality. And that also, you know, this movie is kind of communing with something bigger than itself, right? It's a mirror.

2:41:17Oliver Laxe:And obviously, human beings, what we do when we don't want to watch inside, what we do is a projection. We project outside what we don't want to see. And listen, I think that Siratra sends the category of I like or I don't like. You know, as an author, when I listen to people who doesn't like it, the way they speak about it, I know we did well. It still hit them.

2:41:46Sean Fennessey:Yes, yes.

2:41:47Oliver Laxe:That is very interesting. It's healing something. It's provoking something. But again, on a good way, I mean, And it's certified as a good medicine by people who knows about it.

2:42:05Sean Fennessey:Let me ask you a simple question. There's a rising trend in movies in the last few years of filmmakers waiting until long into the film to reveal the title of the film, the title card of the film. You wait 32 minutes before saying this is Seurat.

2:42:19Oliver Laxe:Okay.

2:42:20Sean Fennessey:Why do you do that?

2:42:21Oliver Laxe:What is the intention there? No, there is no intention. You know, I don't work all the time. I'm a thinker, as you see, but I don't put my head everywhere when I'm making films. You know, I trust my taste. You know, if it's tasty, I'm going in a good direction. Because the taste is really related with your inconscient. You know, that sequence, we come from the Koran and we go to the techno. You know, that sequence is really sensorial, you know, and we are feeling a lot of things. It's a sequence where they desert on a way, you know, they are on the road and they go to the desert, you know, and the title is like, you have a feeling of the adventure starts.

2:43:13Oliver Laxe:Let's go. That's exactly what it is. With the speed, you know, you feel, okay, these people are going to a transcendental trip.

2:43:22Sean Fennessey:I like that a lot. How do you think about building and releasing tension in the story? Are you thinking strategically? Are you thinking emotionally? You know, is it because the film has been compared to some of the movies that you talked about. The film that I see it compared to the most often is Sorcerer. I don't know if that's a movie that you had watched in preparation for this. But, you know, those are movies that are really kind of ramping things up and getting everybody very involved. And then there's a big release. And then we go to the next episode, so to speak, in the film. Are you thinking that much like a diagram when you're working on it?

2:43:54Oliver Laxe:Yeah. Me and Santiago Fillor, I write with him, we think in our films like operas. And so we are thinking on the energy, you know, of the sequences and so how to go to the next block. I mean, it's something alive, a film, you know. You want to build a kind of line that is tense, ready to, you know. and we didn't want to make a long film. I had two and a half hours of... A cut? Yeah, a cut, but we really wanted to have more tension, you know, and more, yeah. So this ceremony, it's intense, so longer could be bad.

2:44:49Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think it's where it is very effective. What do you make of how the movie's been received? Because, you know, you've brought many films to Cannes in the past. You know, you won a prize there this year. But the film is really connected with people in the United States in a way that I would not have expected. I saw it over the summer. Thank you. I liked it, but I think I doubted maybe just the tastes of the common awards voter. You know, we'll see how much audiences will get invested in it. But it is that thing that you were describing of like, people don't forget the images, you know, and it makes an impression in a way that some films just kind of wash away quickly.

2:45:30Sean Fennessey:Are you surprised that it is penetrated this way?

2:45:34Oliver Laxe:Obviously, you are surprised because even if your intention is this, you never know. But we radically trust on the spectators. We radically trust on the relation between an image, sound and the body of the spectator. And we radically trust on theaters. the combination of these three things makes makes I mean we are cinephile we had we felt this you know with the films from the masters but you never know I did also the film with a I mean I wanted to make a popular film you know that's we that's the honey you know in the in the edge of the you know the genre we were studying these films you know like why what?

2:46:18Oliver Laxe:Why did you want to make a popular film? Because we want to serve because we want to make I mean I don't I'm not interested it's my fourth film all the films goes to Cannes I get awarded there but I'm not interested to be on a kind of scene close scene you know I mean to make a film is something really extreme so obviously you want it's part of a mission you know obviously there is also an erotic side you know I mean you are looking for love but there is it's we really want to we want to wake up us and the spectator too you know making this we want to elevate the level of conscience we want to heal I think cinema can heal the collective imaginary you know we are on a moment with a lot of fears that's the problem in our society amount of fears everybody has fears and everybody is suffering there is a collective wound and it's good that cinema heals slowly, this wound.

2:47:22Oliver Laxe:And I think that on a subtle way, Sirat makes it.

2:47:25Sean Fennessey:Your sincerity is bracing. I'm not used to engaging with this so directly if I'm being totally honest with you. Do you know what you're doing next? Have you started writing it?

2:47:34Oliver Laxe:I wanted to say also that we are talking about life and death. We are talking about family. We are not talking about, I don't like this expression. I mean, we evoke these things, we feel these things and that's why it's connecting. In France, we did 800 ,000 spectators, you know. And in Spain, half a million. I mean, it's, yeah, the film. I think people are tired to watch the same films, you know. And this is the future of cinema, you know, to, I'm not saying films like Sirat, but to remember people that a theater is a place for transformation, you know. I wanted to add something because audiences are really important for me.

2:48:17Oliver Laxe:Also, I wanted to dialogue with young audiences. You know, I was 20 years old and I was totally lost. And cinema art was something that really connects me, you know, war me. And so I wanted to do the same. And we are doing this. We are connecting with these audiences and I'm so happy for it.

2:48:44Sean Fennessey:It's amazing. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen. Have you seen anything that has moved you?

2:48:52Oliver Laxe:So I watched the film from Jafar Panahi. It was just an accident. And I just watched it three days ago. And I really loved it. It's one of the contendants. I won't say contend because everybody wins, you know.

2:49:10Sean Fennessey:You're both in the race for best international feature. Race. I mean, whatever.

2:49:14Oliver Laxe:We are sharing a beautiful trip and we are winners, all of us. What did you like about the film? So I like it because the film has a lot of mercy on a moment that it's really necessary to understand that everybody are suffering, that people who provoke suffering is because they are suffering. They suffer. You know, it's a film in Iran. you will see someone who he's you will see the guy who tortures and the guy who is tortured and I mean it's we have to give good news we are on a moment that filmmakers we have to give good news and to on a moment that you know is necessary you know love and light.

2:50:13Oliver Laxe:Oliver, thanks for doing the show. Thank you. Very kind.

2:50:21Sean Fennessey:Thank you to Joanna Robinson. Thank you to Katie Rich. Thank you to the very striking Oliver Lachey. Thanks to CR.

2:50:28Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

2:50:28Sean Fennessey:Our homie. Thanks to all the real Oscar heads out there who felt seen during that draft.

2:50:33Amanda Dobbins:You think the feedback's going to be good?

2:50:34Sean Fennessey:I mean, it always is. Have we done a bad episode yet?

2:50:38Amanda Dobbins:Yeah.

2:50:39Sean Fennessey:Have we ever aired?

2:50:40Amanda Dobbins:Everyone agrees.

2:50:42Sean Fennessey:This was a three-hour episode. Do you feel good about that?

2:50:45Amanda Dobbins:Apparently, people only complain when the episodes are too short. I don't hear any of the complaints, so I would never know.

2:50:50Sean Fennessey:Why? Is that because you're deaf? What's the issue?

2:50:54Amanda Dobbins:To feedback.

2:50:55Sean Fennessey:Later this week, we'll be returning to Garbage Crime. Sierra and I, we have a text to examine in Crime 101, and we will be looking at it. And I think what we're going to do is the post-heat crime movie. every movie that has heat in it.

2:51:13Amanda Dobbins:I'm looking forward to listening to this. I will see Crime 101 on my own time and then probably get a laser on my face.

2:51:20Sean Fennessey:Very cool. Well, enjoy your week off and we'll see you later this week.

2:52:03Katey Rich:We'll see you next time.

2:52:09Katey Rich:at order.sweetgreen.com, available at participating locations only.