The ‘Shrek’ Pod

28:30Like Eddie Murphy making Bill Simmons laugh at a young age is like the reason that we're all here doing what we're doing in a lot of ways. It's definitely true to them. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, that was part of the narrative at the time when the movie was released was, why did it take so long for Eddie Murphy to have a part like this? And he and Mike Myers being two comic powerhouses with SNL pedigree. But, you know, the movie is fairly strange, I would say. I think you've like located something that makes a lot of sense, which is that there's a kind of meta-ironic quality to the like upending of the fairy tale story, right?

29:12That's the whole point of the movie is like we're doing almost like the like airplane, but for fairy tales, but animated. You know, that there's like, it's like a joke a minute. Everything is like plays on words or plays on character expectations. It's not the first time this has happened. And the two movies that I thought about as I was revisiting this were Who Framed Roger Rabbit, where it was just like breaking rules about where characters could be and where they could live and who could talk to each other and who couldn't and who could coexist. Which was a huge movie for me, by the way. I have a vivid memory of putting that into the VHS a lot when I was a kid.

29:45They have a lot in common, for sure. And they both were kind of like at the vanguard of a certain kind of like animation style. Anyway, the other one was Clerks. wouldn't think five-year-old Bobby watching Shrek would be able to watch Clerks and enjoy it and you wouldn't but 10 or 12 years later you might because this like pop culture overload sensibility yes you know and every joke being a joke about a joke that's inside of a joke and it having its own weird rhythms and its own odd relationship to music and our expectations of what characters are supposed to do in a movie and who they actually are they felt very tied together for me and I saw Clerks you know not quite at five, but I think I was like 12 when I saw it.

30:24And it really imprinted on me. And I really liked that writing and style. And I think a lot of kids, I mean, you made an amazing observation here in your notes that I think is right on, that I think that this informed a kind of like internet tonality. Right? Like explain what you were going for when you were identifying that. Yeah. My grand theory about Shrek is that it's the first time that the movies and the memes truly became one. it's like the singularity for shitposting on the internet about movies and movie characters and I think that that is why Shrek literally the face of Shrek endures in so many different meme formats to this point the entire meme spectrum this seems like a ridiculous thing for me to no it's very smart I think it's true it's very smart but it's like there's the like you know I would say like twee 2012 style memes where it's like the facial expressions that Shrek is making in the movie are like you know my feeling when this happens style memes all the way down to like the deep fried me on 35 milligrams of thc at the function and my face falls off shrek memes like all of these different things are covered by the shrek experience because and and i think a huge huge part of that is that the computer animation style of this movie is incredibly uncanny and weird and kind of fucked up in some ways.

31:43Like, it looks weird. When you look at Shrek for too long, it's kind of upsetting. Especially in the first one when they were just kind of at the vanguard of this style of animation. I had a hard time looking at the first film when we revisited it last night. I was like, wow, this is really ugly. But in a way that is sort of uncanny valley in its own way. No, I think the meme thing is very smart, Bobby. And again, like, plays into my understanding of this is really like the cultural bridge between people our age and people your age. Because we learned about this very like meta, self-referential pop culture infused, like just mile a minute type of storytelling from, you know, Tarantino and Kevin Smith, I guess you want.

32:34And even, you know, like Aaron Sorkin, everything in the 90s. The TV shows. Yeah, you know, you talk really fast and you show off how much you know and that's how you relate with other people. Standom comedians were like this as well. Yes, exactly. And so it's a form of humor that we got in movies or TV shows and that then you guys digest through. And it is very cleverly using references that you would have at Five, which is every single other fairy tale. That's kind of like your pop cultural library at this point. And then teaching, the language to the younger kids and then you just put it on the internet and make some glorious memes.

33:13And then it's helpful because, you know, it helps me understand memes because you're using the same like building blocks that we were, but just to do funny things on the internet. It is amazing. I had never seen Shrek 2 before, but I have seen all the memes, you know? So it was like, it's like, it's funny. It's like when you watch like a film from the forties and you're like, oh, that's where they got this. But it was like me for Shrek 2 with the internet being like, oh, there's Puss in Boots, you know? Oh, I see it. Yeah. Well, it's interesting too, because it was, these movies are made, you know, by old Gen X and young boomers.

33:49You know, like those are the people who created, who wrote the scripts, adapted the book, the directors of the films. They're not elder millennials. They're not even young Gen Xers. The people who wrote and directed this movie are all in their mid 60s now. and they were already kind of 20 years down the road on their careers in Hollywood. And so it's interesting that they were able to locate a sensibility that would appeal so intensely to five-year-olds and that would carry them through 25 years. You know, we haven't even mentioned that Puss in Boots, like that's also a franchise that continues on.

34:22There have been now, I think, six Shrek-related films, and the seventh is coming. So it has kind of just every three to four years, there is a new Shrek movie, and it never expired, even though if you got into it at five, you're like, I guess I just kind of have to see everything that they do. Do you still have that relationship to it? Do you still feel like you have to see every Shrek-related object? No, I mean, I definitely have seen the first four because I was contemporary with them. But I know Puss in Boots, The Last Wish, which came out somewhere in the haze of the pandemic in my mind, like late pandemic era.

34:57I think it was 2022. Yeah, I never watched it. Oh, it's good. Yeah, I heard that it was like pretty well liked and I just I never got around to watching it. And something about the Puss in Boots like franchisification, like they that character occupies like the minions territory where it's like we've clearly hit something that is like unbelievably addictive to children. This cat who talks in Antonio Banderas's voice, which honestly the first time he comes on the screen, it's genuinely really funny. It's really, really good. especially since this is another link between Spy Kids and Shrek is Banderas who just from a very young age I was like that guy is the epitome of cool that guy is my god forever I mean not wrong you know yeah and that I just like didn't quite respond to as much as the original Shrek films but yeah so I'm not like I don't necessarily have like season tickets where I will just show for any Shrek product like I will for you know maybe the Mission Impossible movies or whatever but yeah it endures I think and I do think there are a lot of people who are like that and for that reason anxiously awaiting Shrek 5 having seen the trailer and are getting a little bit worried about like this much of an advancement in the technology is now going to take us too far away from what the original Shrek is about it's not going to look right crude animation and awkward fart jokes from a Scottish ogre I spent some time I mean kinda yeah I spent some time on Shrek Reddit this morning.

36:34Oh, yeah. That's right. Just our Shrek? Yeah, which has 110 ,000 subscribers. Okay. So it's a vibrant community. It's not our okay buddy Shrek. You know, like you know the okay buddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's just our Shrek. And they seem very concerned about the animation style of Shrek 5. Yeah. I mean, that is the job of a subreddit devoted to Shrek is to be upset. And, you know, we saw what happened with Sonic the Hedgehog when the people voiced their concerns. That's right. Community spoke and the studio listened. But it does seem to be a hot mud issue. I wouldn't say it's keeping me up at night, but I'm glad that there are people that care out there.

37:15The thing that jumped out to me when I was watching it was the music and the fact that this is clearly a movie made by a bunch of Gen Xers. Where I think there's just like an eel song in the middle of this movie. You know, obviously the usage of... There sure is. the two Smash Mouth songs, Rufus Wainwright on the soundtrack, John Cale in the movie performing Hallelujah. I had totally blocked out that there's just an entire, like the entire song, Hallelujah montage. And then like 2001 came back to me so profoundly in that moment. Like, I just, you know, and then I remember like some kid covering Hallelujah at like a school assembly, you know, and it was definitely, it was not because of Jeff Buckley or anything else.

37:54It was because of Shrek. Yeah. Yeah. That is, I mean, that rules. I'm not sure if that rules. I don't, again, and we know how I feel about people singing. And then this person is just up there, just like at the school assembly. So I was incredible Joan Jett needle drop in this movie when he's doing WWE, like fighting a bunch of knights. And I can't remember. Does this predate Freaks and Geeks? Because that Bad Reputation was the theme song for Freaks and Geeks. And so I was wondering, like, were these contemporaneous? was a coincidence but that song had a real second life it looks like Freaks and Geeks was 99 so it looks like this was after that it was after just having a moment the music in general is really strange but actually really effective for subverting your expectations of an animated movie like this is not there are no Disney princesses singing beautiful harmonies in this movie and in fact the one Disney princess archetype is in fact at night time an ogre and And I think there's something really cool about the way that the movie kind of consistently upends your expectations of what a story should be.

39:00I don't know if it's sophisticated, but it's fun. Can I say the I'm a believer needle drop, like the Smash Mouth cover of that song? First of all, it hits way earlier in the movie than I ever remember. It just is like, here we go. We're off to the races. I think that that was probably the peak of the serotonin levels in my brain. And it's been all downhill since then, the first time I saw that. So that hit and you were like, this is perfect. I feel everything inside of me right now. Yeah. I mean, that was like the Layla in Goodfellas for four-year-olds. You really, you can't overestimate to people who weren't there.

39:39And I guess at this point, it's like Jack. But like, you cannot understand how big a chokehold Smash Mouth had on the public as like off of this movie. between like all stars. You could make the argument that they are the 2000s band. Like they are the band of the 2000s for better and for worse. But here, okay, so here's the thing. I was there for this. Trust me. Their first album, Fushu Mang, comes out in 1997. So they were a kind of buzz bin, post grunge, where should music go, pivot point kind of a band. And they were, they seemed like kind of a joke. Their lead singer, I think Paul DeLyle was his name, he passed away, had that like croaky groany thing.

40:21He was like a bigger guy. He had spiky hair. He was wearing like Oakleys. But if you listen to the band's first single, which is Walking on the Sun, it's basically a nonconformist anti-capitalist document. That's weird to say because it's a silly song with a silly music video. But they were like a pretty traditional alternative rock band. And they had success with that album. Then they put out Astro Lounge, their second album. that second album had All Star on it also a hit and then in my mind in like 2000, 2001 I'm sure I wasn't spending a lot of time thinking about this but I was like oh they had their moment and it's over like you could have thought this is kind of the arc of the alternative rock band in the mid to late 90s they had one album, maybe two maybe they got a second hit and then see you later so for you to frame them and I don't think you're wrong to frame them this way but for you to frame them as like a 2000s band I'm like this is a 90s band to the core and yet It's not that I think that they are a 2000s band necessarily in the sense that they're creating music in the model of whatever the 2000s came to be in terms of how the music industry changed and that sort of thing.

41:30I think that they sound like the 2000s felt to someone who was growing up in that time period. Like this song, maybe that just is because of Shrek, but they're sort of like their energy. they're like you know fuck it like we're just we're having fun no matter what we're singing about kind of energy that that characterizes the songs i think does sort of align really well with like that time period in my mind um they also you know to the to the point of memes like they understood the power of posting too i mean they they were having twitter feuds with the oakland athletics in the mid 2010s still you know like this is a band that understood the power of like The internet and the internetification of entertainment.

42:13For better or for worse. They were sort of thrust into it. I made a mistake. The lead singer's name was Steve Harwell. Paul DeLyle was the bassist and the songwriter in the band. But I wonder if they didn't have the Shrek moment, would they even care about getting involved in internet fights? No. Did the Shrekification of Smash Mouth transform everything? But they leaned into it. And they also, you know, being not one but two songs in Shrek is like peak sellout, you know? and then you're just writing the way, which also has a real early 2000s feel to me. Let's just jam all these bands onto a soundtrack album.

42:50Yes. And also, like, everything is just, is kind of TRL popped, corporated out before things absolutely fall apart in the mid-2000s. What was on the soundtrack for Shrek 2? Did Smash Mouth make a return? I know that Counting Crows famously had a song in the opening song. It's unmistakable. Accidentally in love. Smash Mouth was left on the cutting room floor I'll never forget the moment I heard Nick Cave's voice singing a song it was like a saloon got piano player singing a Nick Cave song in Shrek 2 and I'm like we are truly through the looking glass here culturally this could not be any more weird anyway Shrek 1 massive massive success you have 270 million dollars internationally as you said brought back Eddie Murphy in a big way for a new generation plays to adults pretty pretty smartly.

43:41So I saw the movie in theaters too. Imagine me being in college going with the boys to go see Shrek. What a deranged behavior that was. I'm sure we'd had like 14 nighting lights. It happened. That sounds sick. I watched it last night before bed. Went into bed. And I said to Zach, I was like, well, I was like, you've seen Shrek? He's like, yeah, more than once. Donkey, man. And I was like, I don't even know what to, you know, but I guess we were of an age. Yeah, it just took over. There's no denying that it was for us too, even though we were not little kids. It was just dominant in the culture for that time.

44:12Sorry, I was so distracted by looking up the soundtrack for Shrek 2. We got Holding Out for a Hero by Fru Fru. Changes David Bowie. I mean, come on. Funky Town. That's great stuff. Sure. That is awesome stuff. Live in La Vida Loca covered by Banderas and Eddie Murphy. Just great stuff. So Shrek 1 comes out. It's a mega success. It wins the first ever Best Animated Feature Academy Award. Okay. Which is fascinating to go back and think about. Sure. Who are its competitors? Well, let's go back and take a look at the 2002 Academy Awards. Shrek, Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius. What happens in that? Oh, wow.

44:58One sentence summary, Bob. Go. I don't remember which one that is, but the one sentence summary of Jimmy Neutron is that he is a boy genius with a gigantic head and he is confronted with science-related problems. I honestly think that you could have a whole miniseries doing just Amanda's Science Corner for Jimmy Neutron. Yeah, that would go really well. Jimmy Neutron in the movie, I believe there's an alien invasion and Jimmy has to save his parents. Okay. The other contender was Monsters, Inc. Now, wow. Monsters, Inc. probably earned that one. Yeah. Monsters, Inc. losing is fascinating. Especially because Pixar would go on to run this category.

45:39They've won, I think, north of 10 times in this category. And Monsters, Inc., I think, is still widely considered one of their best movies. Actually, we just watched it in our house, and it's really good. It's a classic. But that is a testimony, I think, a very discreet testimony to what a phenomenon Shrek was, that at this time, when they decided to finally do this, this is a big movie year. This is like a big, you know, obviously it's in the aftermath of 9-11 and it's the right when the Fellowship of the Ring starts and this is the Beautiful Mind one. And it was a very, I remember it as a very noisy Academy Awards.

46:14And so for Shrek to have that spot was a big deal. Very quickly, the sequel is put into motion. What should we say about Mike Myers and Cameron Diaz? Are you guys familiar with the backstory of Mike Myers' role as Shrek? like how much do you know about how he got why don't you tell us i do i know i know the whole story well it was so it was originally going to be directed as like a normal animated movie not this like weird uncanny valley dreamworks style and it was going to be directed by steven spielberg he was the person who originally optioned this book that it is very loosely based on yeah the characters are based on william steven a legend yeah and uh the movie was proceeding spielberg had decided not to direct it, I guess, but the movie was proceeding and it was going to be voiced by Chris Farley and then Chris Farley died during the production of the movie and Mike Myers was interested, I think, from prior to when Farley got cast and then wanted to come in and take over in the role and very late in the production process made this crazy choice to give the Shrek character a Scottish accent, which he didn't have when he was performed by Farley because he wanted to distance his own performance from the performance that Farley had given when he was originally going to voice it over.

47:32And in doing so, created like a whole lot of new work for the animators and they spent like almost like half a million dollars on refitting the visuals to match his like Scottish accent or whatever. And to be honest, like I actually can't imagine the movie with Shrek just doing a normal voice. I can't imagine him not having a Scottish accent. It is such a huge part of why it is just inherently funny from the jump that he is talking like this. Yeah. It's particularly strange when you hear about what Myers' relationship is to that accent. But Farley was apparently five days away from completing his voice performance, which was going to be completed before the animation was done.

48:13And they changed the animation style a couple of times. They attempted to do it in more of like a, I think originally more of like a motion capture style. And then that proved too difficult. And so they moved to just the traditional computer animation style. But so Farley can't finish it. Myers steps in. And Myers really likes the character. He records the entire track in a normal American accent. I think he does another one in a Canadian accent. Okay. Which, of course, Mike Myers is from Canada. That doesn't really work. And then at the last minute, he says he wants to try the Scottish accent.

48:43Now, under normal circumstances... Which is something that you said to me before that first episode of The Big Mac. I know. That I produced, and I count you not to do that. If only I had gone down that route, I would have felt more comfortable in my true voice. but you'd be like that's a really quirky choice by a comic actor but it's something you might hear that a comic actor does from time to time except for the fact that Mike Myers had done this twice already yeah well I don't mind it I don't mind it either but it's really weird when you're like his most famous roles are Scottish guys yeah no it's very strange it's like it's weird but don't you think that brings our generation in a little bit because we remember So I Married an Axe Murderer that's it you know that's it So I Married an Axe Murderer obviously his character's father is a Scotsman.

49:24You know, Heed! Pants! No! It's like an orange with a toothpick. You know, like all that. Have you seen So I Married an Axe Murder? Does that, has that made it to you? No, I haven't. Oh my God. Dude, you gotta watch it. It is so, maybe you won't laugh at all and that would be really funny too. But like, I don't think I've ever laughed more during a rewatchables than when you guys did So I Married an Axe Murder and it wasn't anything you were saying. You just played the clips and I started giggling. the clips okay so just to set the scene for those of you out there listening who have not seen So I Married an Ex-Murder I believe the first time that we see Mike Myers' father in the film played by Mike Myers in old man makeup he is sitting on his couch it's Saturday night he's about to watch a soccer match and host his son and his best friend his wife played by Brenda Fricker is dusting their wall which is the Scottish Hall of Fame and he is singing the Bay City Rollers Saturday night and he's saying S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y night!

50:25It's like the funniest fucking thing I've ever seen in my entire life. And then obviously five years later he brings this voice back for Fat Bastard. So Fat Bastard in Austin Powers 2 That I'm familiar with. That made its way to me as a kid. And Fat Bastard what could play better to a young boy than Fat Bastard? Some magical film creation. So he's like okay I've already done two classic Scots in my movie performances. And now this ogre needs to be Scottish. And yet somehow, like in the mythology of ogres, it just kind of tracks, even if it's not factually accurate. I mean, I guess this is like Brigadoon inflected, but like all fairy tales take place somewhere in Scotland in my mind, even though I think many of them are of Germanic tradition.

51:08You know, obviously Scandinavia has got a big hold there. So, but yes. Classics major. She came through, Bob. Like Scotland is where it's happening. I'm just immediately primed to laugh because I know that it's Mike Myers doing it. And re-watching it, I do think he's sort of the unsung hero of this movie. Yeah, Eddie Murphy is amazing and so funny, but Mike Myers has to be kind of like the straight man and get you emotionally involved while also being like a Scottish ogre. And you do buy all of it. So I think he's quite good. Would love to talk about Cameron Diaz. Okay. You know, that's her voice.

51:49She plays Fiona? She showed up. She talked into a microphone. You despise Cameron Diaz? Charlie's Angels is one of the great moments in cinema history. Okay. Bobby, you did not see The Counselor before you saw Shrek. So what were your feelings on Cameron Diaz when you saw this film? I mean, I don't know that I was even registering. I don't think I really cared who voiced who until I had watched Shrek. 40 times and I was like, I'd like more of this donkey guy. That guy's pretty funny. I think she does a good job. Your contention was, Amanda, that she's mailing it in? No, there's not like a lot of there there, but there's not a lot of there there to Fiona in this film.

52:33Not until Shrek 2. Not until Shrek 2. So it's not really her fault. Also, just to take it back to movie star liquor taste test, we did like her wine. It was late in the game, but we thought that the Aveline wine was pretty good. That's a collab with Benji Madden? No, I think that's hers. It's the collab with Catherine Power who also makes Merit the makeup which started a long and fruitful... I thought they bought that winery together. No, wasn't that the whole thing? Did they? Didn't she get married to a Madden? She did, but he's been written out. It's now her wine in the marketing. Okay, okay.

53:05But is he still in the picture? Yeah, I think they're together. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Good. Anyway, the wine was good. We liked it. Yes, I remember you guys liking it very much. I was kind of mixed on it. Not my kind of wine. Are you a wine person? I like red wine, but I like it to be a little more dry. But is this about like macros? No. I think wine is okay. As far as alcohols go, it's like decent for macros. I mean, it's relatively sugary, but red wine has some good effects. Talk to me about Shrek's cutting and bulking routine. I think he came out of the womb like that. I don't think he has to work too hard to get like that.

53:44I will talk to you about the second movie, how he's built is a fascinating, also a deeply upsetting stretch of the movie when he's turned into like a normal looking guy. And they're like, this is supposed to be the hottest guy on earth. And he's like a very upsetting looking man to me. I don't think that really worked. He does look a bit like a bulking and cutting influencer though. He does. He looks a little bit like the mountain. Or like leftover steroids, which is another thing that you taught me, which is when the men are like large, but slightly mushy. It's because often they stopped doing their treatments.

54:19I'm really glad that on my way out here, I'm leaving you with some building blocks. I'm leaving you with some really important knowledge about HGH usage. Bobby, you know, I will always text you with questions. This relationship is not over. That's another one of the core tenets of being the producer of The Big Picture is that I'm just awake all of the time and I'll answer text messages at any hour of the night. You know, there's like girl creatine now, right? You know that that market has opened up. I've heard about this. I recently learned about it in relation to Jennifer Lopez, but I don't know as much about it.

54:51Can you teach me what's the situation? I mean, I just saw on the internet that an influencer that I follow and like, and I mostly use her recommendations for like garbage bags and stuff on Amazon. But she was posting a certain brand of creatine that I recognized as like, you know, I recognize the supplement brand. Oh, so it's just creatine. It's not like a separate supplement. It's also creatine. Yeah, no, it's like it's like shaped like the jars, you know, like the GNC jars. But it just has peak labeling and it says creatine. And I was like, oh, wow, the approach like this has made it over to girl internet.

55:23So here we are. Where does this fall on the alignment chart with girl lira, which was like a bit that we did on the pod for like two years? I mean, you can definitely only buy girl creatine with girl lira. And I think it is like also super. What's the word? I'm like, the exchange rate is not what you want. You know? You're paying a premium because of this girl creatine. I see. I see. When was the last time you took a scoop of creatine, Sean? It's been a while. Right before holding those dumbbells out for 30 straight minutes? No. No protein powder for me. I don't really believe in it either. I've started doing other...

55:57I mean... I think I actually have a reasonably good protein-inflected diet. So I'm not terribly concerned about that. I'm trying to find natural sources. I do now, Bobby, because of you do the magnesium for sleeping and it's helping. Nice. Yeah. Nice. Magnesium glyconate. I'm not a doctor. You're not. Just, you know, covering my legal basis. I realize this is in the spirit of the big picture and everything that you've been a part of on this show, Bob. It's Shrek 2. How do we get back? How do we get back there? Show me a transition. His build. Show me a segue. It was about his Shrek 2 build. Yes.

56:29When he turns to it. Well, the answer to how he gets to that is that in the first movie, we see a little bit of a window into his diet, which it sounds like he's eating a lot of rats, which I guess is a lot of lean protein, but I found that to be a very upsetting scene. But it was romantic between them when they share the rats. So that's how we get there. He's barbecuing. No communicable diseases in those rats. Like presumably if you eat a rat, whatever a rat is carrying, you're ingesting. That seems like a little dicey for that ogre. I know he's an ogre, but still. What's the world that they live in?

56:57Like what's the name of, like, is it Never Neverland? I don't really know that they specify they specify where they're going the kingdom of Duloc in the first one and then far far away are there communicable diseases there? you think they've kind of wiped everything out I'm just wondering you don't hear about any plague and it is sort of like they have much more of a pro-vaccine renaissance inflected I mean that would be nice they have they don't mention anything about hand washing and all the rules. So maybe germs are not a concern. Although those knights do have those face shields. But that's to protect your eyes and your other stuff.

57:43And your mouth. Yeah. Didn't matter for Shrek. He was straight up dropping the tombstone. Like he was doing WWE moves. It was incredible. I don't know. You think it's like a Maha Screed Shrek? This is what America could be if only you would sign up. For what? I don't think that's the case. I don't know. You could live in a fairytale existence if you didn't get vaccinated. I don't know. Whatever the fuck the movie is trying to tell you. No, I think they have vaccines. You can eat rats. I think everyone, you know, went along with it. And so now everyone's healthy. Okay. Well, what they do clearly have in the second movie is they have a supplement culture.

58:21Because Fairy Godmother runs a factory of wellness products and love products that she sells to people to get rich. Well, sure, because Fiona's from LA. The second movie being about her being an Angeleno is very funny to me. I think that's a pretty good bit. Does Goop predate Shrek 2? What year is Shrek 2? 2004. No, Shrek 2 was first. When did Goop launch? I want to say 2007 or 2008. Okay. Oh, it sounds an awful lot like Shrek 2 invented Goop. Yes. Shrek 2, I think it did invent Goop. Okay. I mean Cameron Diaz and Gwyneth Faltrow are good friends I don't think Gwyneth Faltrow has seen Shrek or Shrek 2 though She did have small children around this time But you know she doesn't watch the Avengers movies So I don't think she's doing that for her friends Gwyneth it's Cameron I'm working on a film right now It's called Shrek 2 There's a plot line for my character related to supplements And I had some thoughts Maybe you could have a business built entirely around Fiona and Fairy Godmother's lifestyle You say what?

59:21You say what? Cameron Diaz should have gotten Charlie Rose's show that would have been great actually I would watch they should give her an interview show I would watch every single one what is she interested in what's she about wine once for goop she did a crunchy vegan salad and it didn't it didn't seem like it had enough dressing for my taste what else she's interested in retiring early yeah vacations or spending time any time with her family. Yeah, that sounds very healthy. I like that. Maybe she should have a supplement company. I think that's it. I think that's all I know about Cameron Diaz.

1:00:02Okay. We neglected to mention John Lithgow as Lord Farquaad in the first film. Command performance. We didn't really talk much about Farquaad and the whole Duloc situation. What's your take on that?

1:00:15The song that introduces Duloc. Duloc is a perfect place. Yeah. Welcome to Duloc. That's just some of the funniest shit I've ever seen in my life. I still crack up every single time I see that. You know, do you know the Muffin Man? The Muffin Man? The Muffin Man is funny. It's very funny. The Gingerbread Man bit, that was a notable moment in the movie for sure back when we saw it. I was more partial to Robin Hood and Vincent Cassell. Why was Robin Hood French? I'm not sure. Is Robin Hood a French story? I feel like it's an English story. Traditionally, it's represented by the English, but I have no idea if it's originally French.

1:00:53Yeah, sure, because it's Prince John, Sir Hiss. Very big in our house right now. Oh, yeah, the Disney version. Sir Hiss is Knox's best friend. Oh, interesting. Like, borderline Lothario stealing money from rich people to give to other people is a very French-ass thing to do, though. So I appreciated the joke, even if I didn't get it when I was five. That's another thing about these movies, especially the first one. It's, like, way more adult humor than kid humor. The kid humor is confined more to, like, the Eddie Murphy line readings and the visual gags and all of those sorts of physical humor.

1:01:26Yeah, yeah. But the actual script itself, there's like a lot of more adult jokes. There's like a lot of sex jokes in the first movie. And I don't think I really realized any of that until coming back to it as an adult. I don't think most people realize that Vincent Cassell's 2001 to 2002 is extremely goaded. Okay, tell us. He appeared in the film Shrek as Monsieur Hood. and then he appeared in 2002 as Diego in Ice Age another DreamWorks animation classic that I've never seen legendary performance he's the saber-toothed tiger and he followed that up immediately with Gaspar No's Irreversible one of the most challenging films ever made a truly dark journey into the despair of relationships in this world so that's that's cool yeah good job by him he's doing it all you know Then 2004, he was in Ocean's 12.

1:02:21Yeah, trust me. I knew that that was coming. Francois Toulour. Shrek 2 is slicker, better animated. I thought a little bit less fun. I think it's... I agree. It's good, but it's missing some of the manic, joke-a-minute, Zucker Abrams style that I like about the first one. I do think it's just broadly dumbed down. like I do think that they were thinking about the franchisification potential of the franchise and franchisification potential of the franchise that's good stuff by me right there they were thinking about stuff like you know Puss in Boots being marketable they were thinking about stuff like how are we setting ourselves up to have like a million different characters that can broaden this world and that's fine I think Shrek 2 is still a phenomenal movie start to finish I just think that it starts to lean away from what I think is authentically like really entertaining and rewatchable about the first one which is like just that small set of characters and the relationships between them but then again there are people like I was at a bar last night watching a Knicks game with some friends and one of the people when I told him that I had to go home to watch Shrek 1 and 2 he was like Shrek 2 is my Empire Strikes Back I think it's the greatest sequel in movie history but that implies that it somehow is like this hinge in the story.

1:03:48Where it's just the same story but a little more Fiona. I was going to ask you what is the central conflict in Shrek's three and four? What are they working through? Couldn't tell you. Okay. I don't remember. Because it does feel a little bit like a retread of the it's what's on the inside that counts. Which, listen, in their early 2000s was an important message to be giving to young children. Now we don't say that. Now it's about what's outside. Are you beautiful? Do you have a nice house? No, I didn't. What kind of watch do you have? What is the name of your podcast? These are the things that matter in our society today.

1:04:25I did watch both of them. No, with like, you know, parent 20, 25 eyes. And I was like, oh, well, in general, this just seems like too fixated on appearance. You know, like if you made it now, it would just be more about like it doesn't, well, then you couldn't make this story, but it doesn't matter what the people look like. we have other things to worry about so I did watch 45 minutes of it with my daughter last night the first film and she obviously was infatuated with Fiona which is very clever design by them to actually put a princess in even though she's not a traditional princess but still she is so you could draw in young girls but she was most interested in the female dragon oh sick the reveal that the dragon is actually in love with donkey and that she's pink yeah great bit And she was very scared of the dragon all the way up until that moment when you get the close-up of the dragon looking at Donkey and she's sort of like drawn to him.

1:05:20And then she was like, that's probably the coolest dragon that's ever lived. You know, she was really, really into it. So there's like a series of these like upended expectations. In the first two films, I think they both do a really nice job of that. Yeah. So you think that Alice, if pressed on it, would rate this dragon on a list, a power ranking, above or below Smaug? I mean you can't believe the kind of content we're going to get out of me and Alice revisiting the Hobbit films with Chris the three of us holding hands for nine consecutive hours watching those films director's cuts probably more like ten and a half hours I think it's going to be good stuff the biggest dragon in our house right now is the dragon from the end of Sleeping Beauty which is Maleficent's transformation so I always found that to be the most frightening part of all the Disney movies shout out Alice that she's really into it it is really scary it's beautiful the animation in that sequence is incredible.

1:06:08But yeah, she digs that part. Okay, that's cool. There's a great gag. I can't remember if it's three or four in the Shrek movies where donkey and the dragon then start a family and the babies that they have are just donkeys with wings that blow fire. It's just a funny bit. It's a funny bit. I didn't, I was going to show this to Nox and then we had some behavior issues and so I had to parent. But I was telling him about the movie he was going to watch. And I was like, well, it's about a green friend named Shrek. And then he has a friend who's a donkey. And I don't remember the donkey's name. Turned out it was donkey.

1:06:45And then they have to go on some adventures. And he immediately was just like, tell me more about this donkey. So even without having seen the movie, he was like, we will see a movie with a donkey? Does the donkey talk? Is he a nice donkey? You know? These are all good questions. But I was like, wow. There's something in the DNA of the story where it doesn't even, doesn't have to be seen to work. Yeah, this is a Jeffrey Katzenberg joint. And one of the reasons Meyer said he wanted to make this movie was because he wanted to work with Jeffrey Katzenberg. You know, the producer and executive who oversaw the sort of second golden age of Disney and who launched DreamWorks Animation, one of the three founders of DreamWorks.

1:07:26And the demise of the Democratic Party, but that's okay. He has also done some unfortunate things in recent times around Joe Biden. Nevertheless, the idea that a star would want to work with an executive who's not an animator and not a writer, but has this kind of macher, producer quality. You know, he's like the Irving Thalberg of animated movies from 1987 through 2015 is really fascinating. And I think that those things that you were just identifying, that there's like some appeal to all of these little choices that triggers in people's minds is sort of a trademark of Katzenberg's. That over and over again, even though he doesn't get credits on these movies in quite the same way, he is seen as sort of like, author is too strong a word, but a really, really meaningful driver of what these movies turn out to be.

1:08:21This one might be the most impressive because it's the most original, even though it's based on fairy tales. It doesn't really, you know, it's a book, but as Bob said, it's like a loose adaptation of a book. It could have gone in any number of different directions. There are many writers on this. Like, for example, I know Terry Rossio has a writing credit on this movie, and Terry Rossio has written, like, a number of great films. He was a writer on Aladdin. He was a writer on The Mask of Zorro, speaking of Antonio Banderas. He wrote a bunch of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. He was, like, a very dependent-upon hand by Disney for many years for cracking these stories.

1:08:53But you get the idea that Jeffrey Katzenberg is very comfortable talking to someone like Terry Rossi about what he wants in the movie and what's going to work. This is like something that we know but don't necessarily talk about. And you and I have a lot of admiration and respect for the creator and the artist. And Jeffrey Katzenberg is not an artist. And yet there is a kind of artistry to him knowing what little kids are going to want in a movie and maybe even what increasingly grown adults are going to want in a movie like this. Because you can lock them in at age five and then have them for a lifetime, Bobby.

1:09:27Do you have tickets for Shrek 5 yet? Not yet. Okay. I will acquire them, though. I feel confident that I will be there. Will it be like a thing with a group of, you know, like-minded and like-aged individuals for you? Shrek 5 is not coming out until December 23rd, 2026. What? Yeah. So it's 18 months away. Wow. So they were just hyping it? 30 and a half years old sitting in that movie theater. So I'm crazy for Shrek. Life comes at you fast, big guy. Yeah, it sure does. It sure does. Will you get a Shrek popcorn bucket? I thought you were going to ask me if I'll get a Shrek tattoo to memorialize this final appearance here on The Big Picture Show.

1:10:06Did you have any Shrek merch as a kid? I don't think so. I mean, again, I know I mentioned, briefly mentioned the video game. I played the video game a lot. So no merch. What did you have to do with extended universe? It was largely set in the world of the second movie. So far, far away. And you kind of have to just basically do a lot of the things that they do in the sequences. Like the action, I want to quote, action sequences of this movie. So, you know, getting into Fairy Godmother's factory. The prison break sequence, which obviously it's really funny timing that we're doing this because it references Mission Impossible with the Mission Impossible theme song Needle Drop.

1:10:45Things like that. you know you gotta you gotta fight the knights you gotta ride donkey when he turns into a horse things like that and like what's the goal like what's the princess in the castle I honestly don't remember I think to defeat fairy godmother I guess oh sure yeah Jennifer Saunders a true legend a lot of phenomenal sense memories of playing that on GameCube I did not realize that was her until I watched this movie but it makes sense and when you look at John Cleese and Julie Andrews and Jennifer Saunders and it's that old thing that, you know, non-animated films do where they're also just like, let's just draw in as many British people as possible.

1:11:21Rupert Everett? Rupert Everett. Which is again, you know, when I saw Wicked and I thought the donkey was Rupert Everett and not Peter Dinklage, I had another moment watching this where I'm like, I don't want to get my hopes up. Is it actually Rupert Everett this time? And it was. So that was pleasing to me. Would Wicked part one have been significantly better if it were Rupert Everett doing the goat voice? Oh, he's a goat? It's a goat. Um, yes I trust him to no because I don't care what if it were Mike Myers doing the Shrek voice honestly yes now we're talking now we're talking Mike Myers should just do the Shrek voice all the time which is not like unrelated to what we're doing here and there are a lot of Wizard of Oz references in Shrek too but it's you know bringing all the like fantasy land fairy tale things together but in a slightly different way I gotta say I respect Shrek's approach more He's going to cry himself to sleep tonight on his huge pillar.

1:12:19You got to get into So I Married and Axe Murder. Are you guys familiar with the fact that, so when Spielberg came to Rachel Zegler for the remake of West Side Story, she was in a high school production of Shrek the Musical, which is an adaptation of Shrek for the stage. And she told Spielberg, I will do West Side Story, but I would like to finish it out with my high school stage troupe. And he was like, yes, you can do that. So they delayed the start of filming for West Side Story because Spielberg closed the loop on Loving Shrek. Have you ever seen any clips from Shrek the musical on stage? It was on Broadway.

1:12:58No. Out of control, man. You didn't go? Oh, no. No, I didn't go. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. What are they dancing to? I mean, this is just deeply upsetting. The guy's outfit who's dressed in Shrek the latex and the makeup. This guy got in the chair every night and put on all this makeup to be Shrek for 14 months. I guess 12 months it ran. 2008 to January 2010. He's like Colin Farrell making the Penguin. You know, we're going to give him an Oscar just because. But every night. Six nights a week. And then he's like breakdancing. This is really, that's not what you want. Who did Rachel Zegler play in Shrek?

1:13:34I'm not. I think Fiona. Well, it's not really a great part, you know? Maybe she was Donkey. I think she could be good at that. She's a bit wee for Shrek. Well, you never know. We could bulk Rachel Zegler up. You know, the suit. Get her on some girl creatine. Shrek the musical. I didn't know that existed. Wow. Now you do. Do you think Rachel Zegler would be a more surefire thing at the box office if she took girl creatine? I think if she were in Shrek 5, no problem. You know? Maybe she is. Oh, that's true. But this seems bulletproof. Who's in the cast of Shrek 5 as we get down to the end of this conversation?

1:14:12Is Cameron Diaz back? I mean, they have to have all of the people. Yeah, I'm wondering who the new voices are. Maybe they're not sharing that with us yet. They can't do it without them. Well, you know, Chris Melodandre, who runs Illumination, took this over. So this is now kind of, I don't know if it's officially under the Illumination banner, but he is the one who is managing it. So Minion's energy coming full. Guys, I have some huge news for you about the cast of Shrek 5. There are four people who are confirmed on IMDb. Okay, tell us, tell us. The first three people are Cameron Diaz, Mike Myers, and Eddie Murphy.

1:14:40Okay. Of course. Number four. As you suspected. Drumroll. Number four is a little movie star named Zendaya. Stop it. I swear to God. They announced this in CinemaCon. Do you know who she plays? Their daughter? Yeah. Oh, my God. Fiona and Shrek's daughter. Good for her. Good for everyone. She is a legend. So is she an ogre? Or is she a human? or does she have the same affliction that Fiona has to deal with? Like what? But I think that Fiona has gotten rid of the affliction. I think that she's just an ogre, her fullest form with her true love. Shrek. Did they explain how she had like ogre qualities even though she was born of?

1:15:22A spell. Oh, a spell was cast. But the spell, they went full spell? They were like, we're going permanent spell? Well, the spell was until you have your true love's kiss, you won't be your real form. and then Shrek is her true love. So they kiss and then her real form is Shrek-ness, you know? So they can be together. But that's what love does. But just like biologically, can two humans give birth to an ogre? Like have we explored this on Science Corner or elsewhere? They're two ogres. But then they were also under a spell? I'm talking about her parents. No, like Julie Andrews and John Cleese. Oh.

1:15:59Like her parents were humans. So they just gave birth to a true spirited ogre. Yeah, I believe that we want to really get into the biology of it. No, they gave birth to a human and then the spell was cast on her to turn her into an ogre at night. Because the ogre is her true self. But her father was not just a normal human. You remember, Fairy Godmother alludes to the fact that she did a favor for him. And at the end of the film, he's turned back into a frog. A frog, yes. Gen Z coming through with the lore. It's a good point, but does a human and a frog making having sex create an ogre's true spirit?

1:16:35We don't know the genetic details of this world. You know, we don't know whether they have germs. This is if you don't get vaccinated. And we don't know. You fuck a frog and then you give birth to an ogre. Like this, these movies are dangerous. But ogres are good. Are they though? They're eating rats. In the Shrek universe. They're actually quite grouchy. This movie is about accepting ogres. Listen, pot and kettle on that one. No, this is my favorite moment of watching this with Alice. Okay. I was, we're like 15 minutes into it. And God, she's the best. Donkey has arrived. Yeah. And he's in Shrek's house.

1:17:12And I was like, Alice, do you understand what's happening in the movie right now? And she's like, yeah, Shrek needs space. Donkey won't give him space. This is. I was like, yes, that's exactly right. by the way I need some space has come on heavy Montessori really really really coming through oh my goodness Shrek needs space ogres are like onions ogres are not like cake is really really great I love that line it is good I think that's so funny this is I was gonna say a beautiful pair of films I don't know if I actually believe that I think there's something a little bit rickety and weird about these movies but I like them I think that they are useful cultural artifacts okay and they did make me laugh so that's fine what would you compare them to culturally is this like the work of jackson pollock i mean what is other sort of like you know sigh twombly guys hey yeah no garbage version of a form of an art form that then helps you reflects the moment that it came from because this I mean 2001 weird ass year in every single way and a real cultural turning point so this being the lasting cultural artifact makes a lot of sense yeah I think it's this is going to seem like a strange comp but I think it's correct the first season of the White Lotus and like the aftermath yeah sure you know the pandemic and uh DEI and you know like all the kind of panic culturally around that time and a writer just having like just the right voice to kind of excite people and annoy them by what they've done.

1:18:53Like this movie weirdly unlocks an idea about fairy tale and the vision of self in a pre-Instagram world. You know, it's right. It is kind of impression, I think. Don't you think? I think that the message, the underlying message of the movie being obviously it is couched in the aesthetic view of yourself and your self-confidence. But I think the underlying message being find a way to be the most authentic version of yourself and find someone who wants to be the most authentic version of themselves is actually a really nice message. And I think holds the movies together through all of their, you know, all of their out of the side of their mouth jokes, all of that sort of like joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, all of that quickness.

1:19:36It's not actually irony poisoned like most animated movies and most superhero style kid entertainment is these days. it's pretty sincere based on the scale that we have in the rubric that we have now for our childhood entertainment. And I think that that is, I think that's nice. I think that's why I'd endorse. It's a beautiful sentiment. Before we go, Bob, what Bob highlights did you want to circle since he's given so much to this show over the years? Man, I mean, I really, I think about long drink every single time every single time i have some protein i think of bob uh every single time i watch a baseball game i think of bob i think you guys have really brought me back to the sport of my youth that's nice to hear baseball is back baseball it's so back and it's so great and let's see um i guess i'll think of you when i watch miyazaki which is increasing Porco Rosso, you know, is something that you both gave to my life, whether I wanted it or not.

1:20:44I don't know. I think the Miyazaki episode was one of my favorite episodes to do because for the same reason that you guys mentioned in the Spirited Away 25 for 25, that it could be me, you, Charles, and Andy all having something tying us together. For the generations of the new masculinity coming together to talk about Spirited Away. and Miyazaki is really nice Amanda our biggest win was Top Gun Mav we held out forever and always that's true we doubled down oh you know what and then when we saw what Dead Reckoning together correct and in that beautiful theater and when Tom Cruise does the motorcycle off the thing and I just like basically held your hand like Thelma and Louise that was really nice I'll always think of that and think of you you're like that's the thing from the trailer they're doing it it was very fun I'll always think of when Bob and I saw the beekeeper together and I was vibrating at a high intensity and I got home and immediately I saw that Bob smashed the one star button on Letterboxd and he absolutely broke my heart.

1:21:44Was it two stars? I thought it was one star. I think so. I remember being like, come on, man. You betrayed me. I had fun. It was very fun. And also politically insightful. Bob is my baseball brother for life. I think we will probably be texting about the Mets until we die. you are like just a tremendously important part of the history of the show and you got us out of a lot of pickles over the years you helped me solve and troubleshoot a lot of problems dealing with extremely famous people and talking to them is complicated business you acquitted yourself wonderfully every time I could always trust you in the room or over Zoom with people also the pandemic was really crazy you held us together it was really hard for us to make the show and the show kind of in the aftermath of that Deacon's thing obviously transformed pretty significantly during the pandemic.

1:22:31We've heard that from a lot of people over the years. And you helped carry us through that. So we are forever grateful to you. And we wish you greatness in the future. We will miss you. Yep. We are sad, but happy for you. Yes. And come back for Shrek 5 Pod. Book it 18 months from now. That is all really nice. Thank you, guys. I really do appreciate it. It has been an utter delight. Like my time at The Ringer has been more than I could have ever bargained for when I first started here, anxious during my McHugh interview. It has been so fun to get to be able to watch movies for a job is such a treat, such a pleasure.

1:23:12You know, Sean, you say this all the time, but a lot of us here may never work on another show that's like this ever again, where it's like we get to hang out with a bunch of people that we like talking about things that we like most of the time when we're not having existential crises by the box office. One of us here can relate to that more than anyone else. Who are you referring to? Was that you doing that? I do. I do have existential crises about the box. I care a lot about these corporations, as you know. You know, to the big picture listeners, like you all are so delightful. It doesn't always have to be like this when you have a big audience.

1:23:44Of course, there are people who are complaining about this and that. But when I meet people, you know, at movies or whatever, everyone is so kind and supportive of what we've done. And, you know, I don't take that lightly. it's always been you know something that's important to me to to work really hard and try to make the best version of the show that is possible you guys work incredibly hard to make this show for listeners and so i always felt like i needed to try to reach that level as well and contribute as much as possible so um yeah it's it's surreal that it's been this long and that it's ending that i when i first started working with you guys i was 22 it's like actually very upsetting for me to think back on like the 22 year old version of myself like trying to represent myself as well as possible.

1:24:26You know, even though I won't be producing the show, I won't be working at The Ringer. You can all rest assured knowing that I will see you at the movies. Nice. I love it. Well, Bobby, thank you for everything again. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. What are we doing next week? Oh, God, I have no idea. Let's see. Hold on. Wait for it. Oh, movie draft. Chaos Central. So we are doing the 2000 movie draft. And you're going to do the order one last time, right, Bob? That will be Bob's final appearance. Okay. With the Top Gun hat? I will do the order with the Top Gun one final time.

1:25:02And then we'll have to find a way to get Jack Sanders a Top Gun hat. Okay. I tried to get one for Knox one year, but... That's what I said. We'll talk about licensing at a later date offline. The movie draft we're doing is 2000. and I don't mind saying that we're bringing back the crew from the 1999 movie draft. So this should be intense, chaotic. I expect full bloodlust from Rob Mahoney coming for your neck and I hope people enjoy it. We'll see you then.

1:25:46you