The ‘Sinners’ Surge. Plus: The Val Kilmer Hall of Fame!

36:52This wonderful portrayal of his relationship to his kids. It's a very affecting, but also just very humorous and fun piece if people have not read that. I highly recommend they check it out. I did the audio when that was collected. I did Val Kilmer's voice for the audiobook. Did you? I didn't know that. And when Chuck did that piece, he got Val Kilmer to leave me a voicemail message. but it's like lost to a Oh no, I've never heard that. Flip phone back in the 2000s. What did Val say? He was like, it was basically, I think he said like, is this Chris Ryan? Welcome to the West. It was something like really weird, but it was really cool.

37:27That's so special. I love that. But it's like, you don't know when that, when you're like, I have this dumb phone that I have like a T-Mobile plan. How do I save this? That is amazing. He, I think, you know, part of it I'm sure is the fact that for us specifically generationally you know he's kind of in the firm of him and very quickly in terms of movies because in the early part of his career he makes these like very silly movies that are very fun when you're a kid and then he kind of transitions into this icon of cool as Doc Holliday, Jim Morrison, Chris Scheherlis like he takes on a handful of parts where you're just like god damn it has anybody been better at commanding the screen and yet as an actor no Oscar nominations no golden globe nominations no major nominations of any kind in his entire career do you think that's because he's usually the best thing in a movie that is like pretty genre-y or is it more about like his kind of relationship to the town and complicated i'm sure it's a combination of both i think he was probably best known for stuff that we would describe as genre um i think he the reputational stuff cuts both ways because for as many people as you say this was the most incorrigible, difficult, complicated, and annoying person I've ever worked with.

38:42If you want to read about it, look at what John Frankenheimer had to say about him publicly about working with him on the island of Dr. Moreau. It's extremely unkind. On the other hand, if you ask Drew Barrymore or Kurt Russell what it's like to work with him, they have nothing but praise. If he has Mira Sorvino, they say he was an angel. I think he was a complicated guy. I think on some productions, he was tough to work with and on others, he was great. I get the impression he was better to actors than to directors. Sure. David Thewlis spoke after he passed away about his experience working with Val on Dr.

39:15Moreau. Dr. Moreau it's like that's an all time tough production. Brando and like four directors and everything that happened. There's a remarkable documentary about that movie called Lost Soul that is mostly told through the lens of Richard Stanley the original director of that movie that I highly recommend that people check out. But I was trying to think about who are the actors that are not recognized in their time, you know, from roughly the last 50 years. There are people like Edward G. Robinson and Donald Sutherland who were never nominated, who you're like, that's insane. Like they're just in like 12 all-time classics.

39:50But, and then there's also like, you're amazing character actors. Like you're Alan Rickman, you're Steve Buscemi, you're John Turturro. Like you'd think they would have one Oscar nomination, but they don't. To me, he reminds me the most of Bruce Willis and Richard Gere. Where you're like, these were locked and loaded movie stars, underrated great actors but if you talk to other actors they would be like this guy had it and for whatever reason because of whatever movies they were in whatever associations they had they never got that recognition and now we look back on val's career and i'm like to not get nominated for tombstone is just weird it's kind of weird to not get nominated for the i mean fully agree you know uh tombstone is an interesting one just because i think that movie became, I remember that film coming out, was that in the aftermath of Wyatt Earp or before Wyatt Earp, but there was these competing Wyatt Earp films.

40:38They were being made about the same time. And Wyatt Earp is a huge Costner film that Lawrence Kasdan was making. It was sort of supposed to be this American epic and Tombstone was kind of like the B-movie shoot-em-up. At least that's the way it was presented. And Dennis Quaid's really good as Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp, but Val Kilmer is on like a completely speaking of sinners. He's piercing the veil as Doc Holliday, man. Like he's talking to everybody. And, um, that's my favorite performance of his. Uh, but I think it's been now properly rated. I think it's now like people, people have gone back and been like, I'm your Huckleberry.

41:16And this, this way of being this consumptive charming, uh, cat of a killer is, is he's, he nailed it. Yeah, and it has become kind of a cliche. It has been regurgitated in style in the past. I think maybe his beauty worked against him a little bit in this respect, too. I think that's something that works against gear, and that gear doesn't get recognized in the same way. But he was chameleonic. I mean, he really would. He would gain weight. He would grow his hair out. He would put on stupid beards. He would change his voice. And sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. He tries out an Irish accent in Ghost in the Darkness that does not work.

41:52you know like he took chances that didn't work but um a fascinating career so you want to go through the films sure man uh i have a tremendous amount of affection for real genius still to this day i well top secret comes first yeah oh you want to go through like yeah let's go through here's the problem i think we can go from 1984 through 2005 and i've seen just about every movie um i would say maybe one or two i'm missing and then the second half up to i haven't seen maverick Almost every movie he's made since 2005. Yeah, it's mostly Redbox and Independence. Yes. So we don't need to belabor the discussion of every movie made in the final 30 years.

42:32But I think a little bit of time for these early ones is important. Top Secret, part of the Zucker Abrams trilogy of greatness alongside Airplane and the Naked Gun. Recently reissued on 4K along with Top Secret. One of my wife Eileen's favorite movies of all time. A kind of rock and roll spy movie spoof. that I'm going to yellow in this conversation because I think it's really important and I think always the original film is really meaningful and we'll come back to it. Real Genius is green. Real Genius is green and this is, oh, if this guy wanted to be, he could have been Bill Murray. Or like Tom Cruise.

43:10Yeah, I mean, I just meant for his comic timing and the way he would like walk into a dorm room and make six jokes that were all like asides and you'd be like, now I'm going to say that for the rest of the 80s. Yeah, it's a moral imperative sequence when he's talking to the lead, which is so memorable to me. And it's just like, this movie is a total cable classic. He's very convincing. Yeah. And it's interesting to think of him operating at the same time of this, that class of 80s actors like Cruise. You know, he was supposed to be in The Outsiders and he passed to do a play quite famously. What part in The Outsiders?

43:42I don't know who he was going to be, but he was at the time doing a play with Kevin Bacon and Sean Penn. Wow. and so neither of them are in that movie and he he was in that cohort of guys oh yeah he was in that cruise pen michael j fox kevin bacon dylan dylan patrick swayze that whole crew of people he was a true contemporary of um 1986 are you a real genius or a weird science guy oh real genius by a mile um weird science i think is i'll tell you something crazy i actually prefer the TV show Weird Science, which aired on the USA Network, and I quite enjoyed. Is Kelly LeBrock's not in that one?

44:21No, but Vanessa Angel is in the TV series. So I'll leave that with you. 1986 Top Gun. What can you say? Iceman. Going in. If you take it out of the context of what happens to Tom Cruise in this movie, and what happens to him going forward, and how this catapults him to an almost singular contemporary level of stardom, he kind of goes toe-to-toe with him. He does. until they kind of, you know, hamstring him in the last act. But he's like not giving an inch in the locker room scenes and like, you know, in the volleyball scenes and stuff. He's like, it's my movie. Yes, there was a very touching moment at CinemaCon when Tom Cruise came out and was like, let's have a moment of silence for Val and everything he gave us.

45:05And it's interesting to think of those guys as being neck and neck for a long time in terms of stardom. And then, you know, things coming all the way back around with Maverick. 1988 Willow. He played Mad Mardigan. Willow movie that was super important to me. I saw it in a movie theater when I was six years old. This is Ron Howard's absurd fantasy movie. Yeah, nice partner movie with Princess Bride. Very much. I'm going to ask, what are your thoughts on Willow? Let's yellow it. Okay. Because I think we're going to get through a bunch of, I think the thing that's cool about Willow is this is another one of his, like he is the movie star, but the whole point of Mad Mardigan is that he's like this goofball trapped inside of King Arthur's body.

45:47Yeah, there's a little Han Solo in the character. A little bit of the like, who me, but also I'm the man. I really love it. As I was watching it again last night, I was like, I see what critics meant when they weren't kind to this movie when it came out. But when I saw it as a kid, it was a classic. Like, this is my shit. Kill Me Again. This is him and Joanne. Joanne Wally. this is where he he met Joanne Wally on Willow they were opposite each other that's right and they fell in love and then they made another movie together called Kill Me Again I had never seen this movie until this week John Dahl like a comedy thriller not very funny okay an extremely violent depraved neo-noir about a dame who comes into a guy's office and says hey I'm on the run from my boyfriend who I stole money from and I want you to kill me or at least make it seem as though I've been killed so that he leaves me alone.

46:44The old Fletch thing. And John Dahl is on a run here of this movie, Red Rock West, The Last Seduction, and Rounders. That is unfuckwithable. This is my least favorite of those four films. It's all pretty good. I remember this as a trailer at the beginning of a lot of VHS movies, but I don't remember seeing this. I think because of the trailer, I thought it was kind of supposed to be a little daffier. Yeah, it presages Reservoir Dogs in terms of films where Michael Madsen tortures a guy's face while tied up. Does he do that in this movie? He does that in this movie. He actually does it to John Grease of the White Lotus fame.

47:23Good movie. I just wrote down, this is not going in, but I didn't realize that Gore Vidal wrote a version of the Billy the Kid story, which was produced for TNT, a four-hour movie where Val Kilmer plays Billy the Kid in 1989. NT and TBS actually reliably hammered out some pretty decent westerns in the 80s. They did Broken Trail very notably, right? Some Louis L 'Amour stuff. 1981, The Doors. Kind of has to go in. I mean, he literally becomes Jim Morrison. The members of the band are like, that's Jim Morrison. I think Robbie Krieger was like, that sounds better than Jim Morrison when he would listen to the recordings.

48:02An absolutely ridiculous but amazing movie, but a performance for the ages. I think a wildly flawed movie, but when Val is locked in, especially during the band performance scenes, it's quite eerie. There's also like, I don't know if I actually thought this before he did it, but you know, when somebody gets cast in an iconic, historically significant role like this, and you're like, oh yeah, nobody else could have ever played this. That's how I feel about Val Kilmer as Jim Morrison. Like how I kind of feel about Daniel Day-Lewis as Lincoln, where I'm like, oh, Lincoln's a wrap now. Like, don't try and do Lincoln again.

48:34Has there been a Lincoln since Lincoln? Yeah, in Manhunt, the Apple TV series. That's a TV show. Hamish Linklater plays him. Hamish Linklater? Yeah. He's a pretty good Lincoln casting, I think. He's a string bean. He's quite tall, brown hair. How is his now, now, now? He didn't do now, now, now. Okay. Yeah. All right, that's too bad. Thunderheart. I actually kind of dig this movie. So it's very good. Michael Apted. Yeah. Kind of a grungy FBI western. I'm not sure what the source of it is. It's about a Part Sioux FBI agent who goes to investigate the murder of a man on a reservation. And there is a conflict between the local people of the town and the reservation.

49:19And there's a kind of Chinatown-esque scheme going on behind the scenes. Sam Shepard plays Val Kilmer's partner. Val is the lead FBI agent. Shepard's really good in this. Phenomenal in this film, as is Graham Greene. This is one of the best Graham Greene performances. the character that Graham Greene plays I think appears in other novels and there was like a big desire for like a Thunderheart expanded universe yeah exactly he plays like he plays the reservation cop and he's so cool and so smart in this movie it's a very good film Michael Apton didn't make a lot of movies like this you know best known for like the seven up documentary he had made a documentary about about uh Leonard Peltier right he did yeah yes about that that murder on the reservation some years ago I think the I think the doc came out like a year before Thunderheart too so he was the uglala nation like and he's kind of proximate to all of that at the time of this movie really deacon shot it did he yeah yeah that explains why it looks so fucking good um i like it i'll yellow it i don't think it's going in val is good yeah it's it's it's an encouraging performance for him and this is kind of where you're like okay like you're gonna be the lead of like really good movies for like the right and then you know you know what i mean like i think he's probably looking at this as a step down from the doors in terms of how it's featuring him or how it's elevating or platforming him but well it it has something in common with the doors which is that he has a kind of like a native american um like fantasia moment moment in consecutive films which is very unusual that i think the thing it does is it like cements him as guy with a gun like he can do guy with a gun and a leading man on the poster the real mccoy i'll tell you what I've never seen it.

50:56Me neither. This sounds on paper like it would be good. Russell Mulcahy of Highlander fame directing a bank robbing dramedy starring Kim Basinger as a recently paroled bank robber. And I think that Val Kilmer plays his her parole officer. Oh, Terrence Stamp plays her former employer who wants her to do one last job. And there's some friction in the planning. the movie like was kind of he should have just been an actor in the 50s because these are all 1950s movies yeah he does have a classical approach and a classical look for sure um real mccoy's not going in 1983 tombstone we've already talked about it that's green this is a great great film how much screen time does he have in tombstone not a lot yeah not a lot six scenes there was one recent time where i rewatched it and i was like oh my god man i think uh i think he's only on screen for like five scenes you know like yeah i think There's some incredibly memorable ones.

51:54There's some unforgettable ones. Obviously, the final confrontation with Johnny Ringo is some of the best acting you'll ever see in your life, but I'm more partial to the gun-flipping showdown. Yeah, Frederick fucking showdown. Okay, true romance. Small but crucial role as Elvis Presley. Unseen. You don't see his face. You don't see his face. You do hear his voice. He inspires Clarence at a moment in which Clarence, played by Christian Slater needs inspiration. It would be odd to put a film like this in the Hall of Fame and yet it may be, maybe it's the second best movie he ever appeared in. Oh, yeah.

52:34I mean, you know, it's like it's heat and then is it this movie? Yeah, it's top four, probably, at least. I don't think it's going to go in given the work that we have to do, but I'd like to yellow it. Okay. Batman Forever? I think there is a case. Now, I'm not a big Batman Forever fan. I remember being disappointed in theaters and getting that first feeling of like, am I too old for this movie? And I was 13 when I saw it. He's not a bad Batman. And it is in the first line of his obituary. Yes, it literally is. He played Batman. And Jim Morrison. Yes. There's seven guys who played Batman in a movie.

53:16And he's on that short list. So... I don't know. What do you think?

53:25This is his Hall of Fame, remember? Not his Hall of Fame of great performances. I think you have to put it in there. I think so, too. I mean, I don't even know if... I'm sure listeners are like, why are you guys even deliberating? I agree. Let's make it grand. I agree. I think it would be kind of interesting to go back maybe next time Batman is in a movie. Or we can actually do it for Superman, but you basically go back through and all the people who have played Batman and Superman over their careers and what it did to their careers for better or for worse. The Batman effect. Thinking about this with Superman just coming up and, you know, Cornswet's like a really cool actor, but like this is a lot very early to be happening.

54:04It's a big jump. Yeah. You're more likely to cast an unknown into Superman rather than Batman. Batman needs to be... Batman, you need some power, but also you have the mask. Superman, it's his face. It's an ironic aspect of it. Usually you'd want a notable person in a Superman role because you see his face, but it's kind of like how the NFL is dominant. You know, they got helmets on. 1995 Heat. Have you seen Heat? Can I just say when we saw it at Coolidge, A, one of the greatest movies ever made, obviously. It was incredible. And awesome to watch it with a full theater. He's just vibrating on the screen.

54:38Like he is in some ways taking the film the most seriously of anyone in the movie and he's acting with Pacino and De Niro who legendarily are, you know, monkish kind of dedication to their performances. Chris seems possessed. Yeah. He seems possessed in the film. I think possibly that's because it's a largely, he doesn't have a lot of dialogue. And so, so much of Neil and Vincent's dialogue has now become like memes for me. But Chris's face when Charlene gives him the no go sign at the end and like him being like, I just got shot again in his face and getting in the car and driving off. Where can I get some bread?

55:20it's a hotly debated topic online at three o 'clock in the morning um and it's sad because it's like there's another version of this world where like he had gotten to participate in heat too if it had gotten off the ground i mean obviously um his character is a huge part of heat too so i don't know if he would have obviously like val kilmer at the end of his life would not have been able to do that Val Kilmer in 2002 probably would have been able to do that if if he had wanted to make that um he definitely could have but if if people want to like continue with that character it's the best part of heat too is the Christian stuff heat is the the deepest and darkest green that we've ever had we are in the forest of green for heat the island of Dr.

56:04Moreau um this is a bad movie it's a movie that you can very clearly tell has been hacked up and reconstituted and reshot Marlon Brando is doing deeply bizarre things in the film Val Kilmer's performance you know he got word that he was being served divorce papers by Joanne Wally during the making of this movie and it reportedly spun him out and his performance is not bad it's quite strange should I serve you with divorce papers from Eileen when we're doing one battle after another and see if it spins you out I'm really working very hard to avoid that. Comes your Dr. Moreau. We have to reshoot the pod five times.

56:43My entire life is just looking forward to one battle after another and not getting divorced. And you all of a sudden have an Irish accent.

56:53Island of Dr. Moreau. The performance is not bad. And also he dies halfway through it. It's just like the movie is considered a legendary disaster. So it's red. Yeah. I'm not going to put Dr. Moreau. I mean, it's fine to have this as this is probably if you look at the films that come after it. He basically needs to wait for Shane Black and Oliver Stone to save his career. Yeah, I mean, he's he's officially on the backside. Yeah, the Ghost in the Darkness is the next movie. This is a movie. Here's my take on this movie. If you made this movie 99 more times, it would have been better all 99 times.

57:29I rewatched about an hour of it last night. this is a film written by William Goldman based on true life events about a man who goes to Africa to build a uh a bridge and during that bridge building um two lions start attacking the construction of the bridge so they gotta get the hunter the hunter in this film is played by Michael Douglas movies produced by Michael Douglas Michael Douglas was not meant to be the star of the movie I think Sean Connery and Anthony Hopkins turned down the role that Michael Douglas went on to play in Goldman's conception it was a Burt Lancaster type and then Michael Douglas Dick Cheney'd it he came in turns out I am the best one Dick Cheney'd it and he also rewrote the character and I think significantly weakened the movie this movie and the Rob Reiner film North were the most excited I was ever for movies that disappointed me in the 90s because of Premiere Magazine that's another great episode we should do that we should hold that and we'll redo that in a quiet week Ghost in the Darkness directed by Stephen Hopkins I wish it was better it's not it's red and again he's doing a very poor Irish accent.

58:30Yeah. 1996 Dead Girl. I have not seen the film. I didn't know it existed. I don't know. He plays Dr. Dark. Okay. It's red. 1997 The Saint. Green. Recently featured on the Rewatchables. This is a movie I like. Is it green? Well, it's certainly... It's a good use of Al Kilmer. Yeah, and it's a great example of him being... I could still be a movie star if everything clicks together. It's not a film that I revisit, but I think it can be yellow. We have six greens right now. We'll yellow it for now. Okay. Now, you haven't seen The Prince of Egypt. I haven't. There are a great many people who have and who would...

59:07This was a DreamWorks animation feature, one of the early DreamWorks films, and it was a very big movie. And Val Kilmer had a dual voice role as both Moses and God. Those are two great roles. Those are important roles in this world. And you're more of a Moses or a God, would you say? I thought Moses really got after it you know like definitely early in the morning yeah one of the great early writers yes absolutely he was banging it out yeah and now God could claim authorship of the commandments but you know to me that's like a more of like a Bill Simmons kind of Zach Lowe kind of relationship you know it's like interesting

59:49I'm gonna let that sit right there the Prince of Egypt there is a pocket of the community that would say this is an automatic green. Sure. I'm not going to do that. I've now decided to start respecting communities because you guys got Minecraft to$700 million. It's a good point. It's a really good point. Lots of people out there. Can I get to a billy? They like different stuff. Did you see that Sinners made$7.8 million on Easter Monday? Yeah, because apparently nobody went to work on Monday. That's sick. I know we did, like assholes. We both recorded podcasts. I saw it in my calendar where it was like Easter Monday and I was like, did we have Easter Monday off at school?

1:00:20Christ has risen, bro. Oh, yeah. You forgot about that, didn't you? Thinking about Moses, you forgot about Christ. Moving on. The Prince of Egypt is going to be red. Okay. At first sight. Saw this on a first date in high school. Yeah. Was really excited to be dating this girl. This is pre-Eileen. Ooh. Yeah. And.

1:01:12she liked it and I didn't. kind of came at the end of a wave of films where really hot guys had debilitating illnesses in movies. Well, in this case, he's blind. Yeah, not debilitating illness. You know what I mean. Like Baboon Heart, where Christian Slater has the heart. Untamed Heart. Oh, it was originally called Baboon Heart. Yeah, because he does have a baboon heart. Yeah. That's a beautiful movie. Is Marissa Tomei in that one? She is. I have actually recently spoken about this film on the podcast as a movie that I quite liked. I feel like there's another one. I need a third for a trend. was another christian slater movie uh pump up the volume where he is racked with an erection through the entire film harry hard on persistent boneritis talk to your doctor at first sight's a funny one it's directed by erwin winkler who's the legendary producer of movies like rocky and goodfellas he has directed some movies in his career not very good uh and alto knights at first sight is based on an oliver sacks story um awakenings awakenings the great science writer It's not a good movie.

1:02:13It's red. Joe the King is Frank Whaley's directorial debut about his experiences as a young boy and Val Kilmer plays his father. I have seen this film though not very many have and it's not very good. I remember it coming out. I don't think I ever saw it. Okay. 2000 Pollock he plays Willem de Kooning in Ed Harris's biopic of Jackson Pollock's life which I did kind of cruise through last night and he's in one scene and he's got four lines of dialogue. Okay. So probably not a green. Okay. It's a red. 2000 Red Planet. This is the other of the dueling Mars movies from 2000, along with Mission to Mars.

1:02:48This is Carrie Ann Moss and Tom Sizemore. Right. A reunion with Sizemore. Sounds like he did not enjoy his experience with Val Kilmer on the set of this film. They did not like each other. Much prefer the De Palma movie. Mission to Mars is interesting. Yeah. This movie is not very good. It's red. The Sultan Sea. There's a hive here. There's a hive for it. Can I cook? Can I cook my meth? this is a great late tarantino ripoff and dj caruso directed it it's about um val kilmer plays kind of two roles uh danny parker and tom van allen one is a meth head gangster not gangster basically crook uh and uh the other is a like jazz saxophonist who has like a totally normie hollywood life it is so convoluted it's got like triple crosses with multiple law enforcement agencies involved but has a great cast and absolutely obscenely stupid vincent d 'onofrio performance where he plays a drug dealer whose nose has fallen off from uh overdoing coke or meth fantastic sarsgaard maybe one of his first film roles um and val kilmer is a great um you know like classic william holden i'm in a noir and i am your narrator guy so i really like this movie but this is also my kind of movie like i will watch the most dog shit version of a guy playing multiple cops against each other while doing drugs and performing robberies and playing sax i might be able to give you this one we don't have a ton left so why don't you put it in yellow okay and we can come back to it okay the salton sea is yellow i agree it's very good this feels like a movie that is based on a book and it's not it was a spec script that i guess tony gaten wrote and DJ Caruso is like pretty decent he like he makes pretty good movies I would say after this movie I thought things were going to be very exciting and then he goes he did Suburbia right Disturbia but he goes Taking Lives um with Angelina Jolie and Ethan Hawke which I don't think is very good Two for the Money which you love and isn't good uh Disturbia which is pretty cool yeah Eagle Eye I think we saw Eagle Eye together I think you're right is Monaghan in that yeah it's it's shia and monaghan how about our monaghan stock i mean just wow this is we're gonna come back to monger and buffett do we just we invest in quality i feel like i my offshore accounts are exploding with monaghan like it is remarkable in episode six or whatever where i was like who is this lady's 50 this is insane anyway uh he yeah caruso has made not some not great movies Chris he made the disappointments room he made triple X return of Xander cage which I know is your favorite triple X film have you seen 2024's Mary which he directed it was a Netflix film I think about Christ's mother no stars Noah Cohen and Christ no Noah is a girl oh okay she's Mary the titular character you haven't seen that one I haven't okay Anthony Hopkins in that movie you have any thoughts on international immobiliary's role coming up.

1:05:59You got the conclave. My guy is, I've already chosen my. Your guy? Yeah. Is it Pietro? No, he's like kind of. He's the conservative. Yeah. Yeah. My guy's going to do fine. But you're not going to say who your guy is. Why would I reveal that information? Just like your high school girlfriend. Do I have to say this girl's name? Don't worry about it. 2002 Hard Cash. A film I have not seen. Me neither. We're getting into tricky territory. Feel free to add us if Hard Cash is a classic that we don't know about. 2003 Wonderland. Pretty good. Pretty good. Pretty good. Now, this is the film in which he plays...

1:06:39Two guys talking about a John Holmes movie waiting for the other one to be like, it's pretty good. Is it okay for me to say I like this movie about John Holmes being coked out of his mind and robbing people? Yeah, this is garbage Boogie Nights. It is. It comes, you know, some five, six years after Boogie Nights retelling at least one section of Boogie Nights, in particular the Wonderland murders. which transpired in 1981. Who directed this? James Cox. He also co-wrote the screenplay. Not an illustrious career as a filmmaker. The movie, it has the Rashomon approach where it has a number of different perspectives in terms of telling the events of the night that I think works pretty well.

1:07:19Crazy cast. Harry Fisher, Lisa Kudrow, Josh Lucas, Christina Applegate, Tim Blake Nelson, Janine Garofalo, Kate Bosworth. Kate Bosworth's the lead, right? She's the lead, yeah. Yellow? Yeah, I don't think it's going to make it, but it's better than Hard Cash, which I haven't seen. Definitely. He has a pretty small role in The Missing, the Ron Howard film. This is a reunion after Willow. That's going to be Red. That's Kate Blanchett and Tommy Lee Jones. 2003's Blind Horizon, I don't know what that is. Do you think he's blind again in that movie? I hope not. That would be a little soon after At First Sight.

1:07:542003 he has a very small role in masked and anonymous as an animal wrangler this is the film written by bob dylan and directed by larry charles uh val friends with bobby d that's how we got it it's red 2004 spartan green wow oh come on sean speak david mammoth's uh film about a marine gunnery sergeant who uh in the beginning of the film we are introduced to him he's training rangers He's training like special ops guys. And he is then put on a winding long mission to find the disappeared president's daughter, played by Kristen Bell. Derek Luke is also in this film. And Kilmer does Mamet up there.

1:08:42I wouldn't say up there past Mantegna, but he is singing his own song with Mamet. And it is awesome. This is truly one of the great late period Kilmer performances or mid period Kilmer performances to me. The way he sings the repetitive, hit these words over and over again, where's the girl, where's the girl? And then even the stuff that he has, a facility with Mamet's picked up. At one point he says to Derek Luke, he's like, you're going to have to go at half speed, baby. Or I need you to set that motherfucker to receive. You know, like just like those great mammoth punches to this chest. He nails every one of them.

1:09:24So I'm on board with you here. I think I'm a little bit poisoned by the fact that I know Val Kilmer hated working with David Mamet. And so it's a little bit hard to reconcile that with the movie. And I've gotten it in my head when the movie came out. Maybe it's just becoming friends when we came out. Yes. And we didn't I don't think we saw it together, but I think we were like, yo, did you see this? I started a Facebook group about this movie. Did you? Just for myself, yeah. Incredible amount of lore in this episode where it's like the Val voicemail. What the fuck, man? Great job on the press box.

1:09:56I thought that was very touching to hear you talk that way, by the way. I really like Spartan. I don't think I realized at the time that it was the beginning of the end for Mamet. He's literally only directed two movies since this movie. It's been 20 years. The second of the two movies comes out like next week. On his website. On HenryJohnson.com. It's a prison drama starring Shia LaBeouf about a murderer. And despite all of the very difficult complications of being a fan of David Mamet's writing and directing in 2025, I think we're both excited to see it. I mean, it's just, he's one of the singular dramatic writers of my lifetime.

1:10:36I'm just so fascinated by, you know, and obviously like disappointed by where his kind of career led him. But this is a great example of him taking essentially like an espionage story, but is more or less like a Parker novel, like the way it is kind of like one man against a massive conspiracy in a mission. So, yeah, I'm not sure. Obviously, if you had tension with David Mamet, that's that's fascinating. I don't remember that story for some reason. His director's commentary on the DVD is amazing. It's very funny. and maybe it was that tension that's what makes the performance so powerful is because he's trying to pull away from Mammoth's, you know, orthodoxy.

1:11:18So green for Spartan. For me. I'm with you. Okay. You're doing this journey with me. 2004 Stateside, haven't seen the film. Don't know it. We're in the zone of what is this? I'd like to think of myself as a fairly completist ball knower. It's tough with some of these guys that then make seven movies a year. Yes. For the last 20 years of their life. In 2006, he has six movies on the board. 2004, he also, in addition to Spartan, makes Alexander a reunion with Oliver Stone, another filmmaker who he clashed with on the doors. But Stone has said he had a great experience with him in a much smaller role as King Philip of Macedon.

1:11:57He plays Colin Farrell's, the titular character's father. It's like he's giving his inheritance of being in a crazy Oliver Stone movie to Colin Farrell. Yeah, and being a swagged out weirdo like Colin Farrell is as well. They have a lot in common, I think, as stars, where they sort of zag when you expect them to zig. Alexander's not going in. It's too small of a part, but it's a cool handoff. I think baton pass, as you put it. 2005's Mindhunters. I'm not a big fan of this movie. It's like a horror thriller, like a psychological thriller. I don't know that I've seen it, to be honest. It's red. 2005's Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang.

1:12:32Green with a bullet. It is green. it's a tricky one because it is RDJ's movie and it is RDJ's the beginning of his revival Val's great in it and very similar to Mamet I think he's got a real affinity for the Shane Black tone absolutely and it really makes you wish that they had more together I wish he was in other guys nice guys I mean nice guys yeah he would have been great in that just an incredibly fun kind of redefinition of the detective movie shot through the prism of the Shane Black. There's a kid, there's Christmas, there's a hot gal, all the stuff that he has. His great way of viewing LA is this cesspool that is also paradise.

1:13:13Yes. Val's character is gay in this movie. Yeah, it might be the funniest performance of his career, or at least in his late career, I think. It's written as hard comedy, but there's one other one that I think is much funnier, but I don't know if you've seen that movie. We'll get to it. We're stacking up greens here. Okay, so where are we at now? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. So we have 8, and we've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 yellows. Okay. So this is going to be interesting. This is a great career that he's had. 2006 Summer Love. Haven't seen it. Red. 2006 Moscow Zero, which is your other podcast. Red.

1:14:00Though not Russian red, right? Right. Who can say? Okay. Much like your high school girlfriend. There are things about Moscow Zero. It's all a mystery. That are only for Patreon. 2006, 10th and Wolf. Red. Can you, how about you tell me the next movie you did see? 2006, Deja Vu, directed by Tony Scott. Yes. Played from 2006 as Red. 2006, this is his reunion with Tony Scott as well. After 20 plus years after Top Gun. It's a supporting role. Is he Denzel's... Is he the agent investigating the story in Denzel's? Deja Vu is a very good movie that I haven't watched in a very long time. But I remember enjoying it quite a bit.

1:14:45Is that on 4K? It's not. Most of the Tony Scott films are not on 4K. Because they already look too fucking good? I wouldn't want to clean up the mess, you know? I would want some of the dinginess that comes along with a great, hard-cutting Tony Scott action movie. This is Red, although I do think Deja Vu is a cool movie. have dreams will travel no conspiracy no felon no although people some people like seem to like felon you know about felon he plays someone named john smith yeah oh is this uh it's i think this is kind of like shot caller it's rick roman was like i think it's his first film yeah and he's wearing a similar beard to the one that nicolai costarwaldo has in that film and he plays a guy who's in prison with Stephen Dorff and Harold Perenow.

1:15:31Kind of a starter kit for Rick Romanois. Okay. Who's talented? He's my guy. Red. Delgo from 2008. I don't know what this is. I don't know what all these movies are. 222? One of the crazy things about the amount of shit he's doing here is that there wasn't a streaming ecosystem, so this is like straight to video. They were all straight to video. He's made many, many straight to video movies. Now, it's hard to tell why that was happening. Is it because he needed money? Is it because his star was falling? Is it because he just liked to work? You know, it's hard to say. 2008 Columbus Day, Red. 2008 The Love Guru, which you love.

1:16:08Michael Myers' failed attempt to relaunch another franchise. He plays himself. It's Red. Okay. 2009's The Chaos Experiment. Why do I feel like I've seen The Chaos Experiment? This is a wild career that he's had. This motherfucker is in Top Gun, and he's also in the Chaos Experiment. Oh, this is, I didn't see this, but I think this is a great logline. In order to make people realize about the adverse effects of global warming, a scientist conducts an experiment on six volunteers. In a turn of events, the volunteers are now his hostages. Incredible cast in this movie. So, like, Earth Day Saw.

1:16:50Craigor, call me. this is hot IP I feel like this will really work in 2025 Armand Asante, Eric Roberts Patrick Muldoon in Chaos Experiment? that is the VOD kill team those guys moving on 2009 Streets of Blood these movies seem fake American Cowslip 2009 The Thaw literally what are these movies is amazing he worked his ass off In 09, he made two, four, six, seven feature films. American Cowslip is about an agoraphobic drug addict wishes to grow a perfect flower while his brother attempts to save his soul and his landlord's schemes to have him evicted. Sounds kind of interesting. Looks like he has a small part in this film.

1:17:39What's up with... So what do you want to do about Bad Lieutenant? I like him. You know, he's Nick Cage's character's partner in the movie. this is Port of Call New Orleans this sort of like I haven't seen this in a while false sequel to the Abel Farrar movie this movie was directed by Werner Herzog it's a cool I think it's a cool movie it's in my sort of second half of my Werner Herzog movies that I enjoy it's very different from most of his movies it's best known I think for that famous scene where he sort of like thinks he's seeing lizards in the office is it lizards or alligators I can't remember it might be alligators like I said it's been a minute really fun cage performance that is very out there but I don't think gets in the Val Hall of Fame.

1:18:192009 Hardwired. No. 2009 Double Identity. No. 2010 The Traveler. No. 2011 Bloodworth. No. 2011 MacGruber. Yeah. So I think this is the one I was saying for comedy. He plays Dieter von Kuntz. First of all, MacGruber is so fucking funny. Yeah. I watched all of the Val scenes last night. Will Forte, I think we're maybe not making enough of how good Will Forte is at being Will Forte. Will Forte also after Val passed away talked about what was the reality show that those guys Amazing Race. Did they go on Amazing Race? No. So they while they were making MacGruber, Will Forte was obsessed with Amazing Race.

1:19:03And I guess Val Kilmer was like, why are you watching this shit? And he's like, you should check it out. And Val Kilmer like watched it and was like, now I am obsessed with Amazing Race. And they actually made steps towards the two of them doing Amazing Race together. but like their management teams put the kibosh on it. That's incredible. Can you imagine if we had had that? You know, Mike White's done it. Like if we had had Forte and Kilmer as an amazing race. Just talking to each other would be magical to me. MacRuber is very funny. You know, Kilmer's not in it a ton. This is basically right at the end of when he starts working regularly.

1:19:37And it's probably the last studio movie he makes besides Top Gun Maverick. No, that's not true. He made a couple of others. But I think he's really funny. Let's yellow it for now. I think I'm open to it being green. He's great in this movie. 2011's Kill the Irishman, which... Was it Michael Shannon? I think it's a Michael Shannon movie, which some people seem to enjoy. I don't really have a strong memory of it. Jonathan Hensley directed it. I feel like I've seen this, but I don't remember it. Oh, I remember this poster. yeah this is this is good garbage crime 2011 Twixt I only just recently rewatched this because of Megalopolis and Coppola I think this is a cool Val performance he plays an author who is trying to get to the bottom of something mysterious in his town that is maybe more ethereal than he realizes it's a good performance it's not great Coppola apparently had been friends with Val for many many years and they'd wanted to work together he tried to cast him in the Outsiders in 1983 and he passed.

1:20:45So it's a very interesting movie in the late arc of Coppola, but I don't think in the Hall of Fame for Val. I've never seen Wyatt Earp's Revenge. I've never seen Riddle. I've never seen Standing Up. I have seen Palo Alto. And his son is in Palo Alto. Jack Kilmer's in it, which is why I think he's in it. This is Gia Coppola's directorial debut, which is an adaptation, I think, of James Franco short story collection. Yeah, Emma Roberts is in it. It's amazing what ideas I have in my head. How do I know about James Franco's short story collection being adapted by Francis Ford Coppola's granddaughter?

1:21:19Anyway. In 2013. I saw it in a screening room. Yeah. I remember liking it. Val's got a small part. Was this... You were in LA for this? I was. Yeah. It was a Grantland thing. I think it's red. Yes. 2014's Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn I never saw, but am I mistaken in remembering that he was doing a lot of Mark Twain stuff? Yes, he wrote a Mark Twain one-man show that he performed for some time around America and toured with it a little bit. And I watched some of it on YouTube last night and people seemed to really enjoy it. It was sort of this like aphoristic collection of monologues that featured a lot of the Twain-isms.

1:21:59but that's the other thing is that Kilmer went to Juilliard trained theater actor wrote poetry you know very sophisticated guy we were using the word weird I think with a lot of affection but a real like artist soul even though he was in all these VOD movies I think one of the things that we often well we wish contemporary actors showed more sides of themselves it often feels like these guys get kind of anointed and then shaped from a relatively young age and don't have a lot of the life experiences that inform the performances of some of the actors we grew up watching. Agreed. That may not be the case, but it's like, Timothee Chalamet is one of the few people where I'm like, oh, it seems like you have a story.

1:22:39You came from this building in New York and you like this kind of music and you've been always wanting to do this. And a lot of these guys are like, I'm from nowhere and I have no beliefs. Yes, he has personality. Yeah, and Val Kilmer kind of to me is like, just got his obsessions and his passions and his interests. Agreed. I think Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn is red but I think the work he did is quite interesting 2017's Song to Song he has a small performance as Dwayne and Terrence Malick's live music Fantasia I can't say much for Val's performance in the role which is pretty small I can say much for his YouTube video of him introducing the black lips at South By back when this film was being made in which he's kind of channeling Jim Morrison and also continues to introduce Rooney Mara as a member of the band while they are getting ready to perform.

1:23:34Black Lips fan? I was a big fan at the time. Have they been cancelled? Did something happen with Black Lips? They could have also put out like 15 albums in the last three years. In 2011 I was like this is one of my favorite bands. But I feel like there's been some weirdness. I think they were actually. Did you cancel them? No. Did that come up on the watch? They still appear on Moscow Zero quite frequently. Song to song is red, but it's cool that Malick, that Kilmer got a chance to work with Malick. The Snowman, you remember this? One of the great turkeys. Yeah, Harry Hole. Yeah. As portrayed by Michael Fassbender.

1:24:07This was a... Tolos Alfredson directed this. A Nordic mystery? Mm-hmm. That was one of the famous bomb. I don't really remember what Val did. He played a character named Walter. Was he the villain? I honestly, I saw this, like I saw half of this one. I was like, this is a disaster. Once again, Val plays himself in Jay and Silent Bob Reboot, which is yet another... Should we address whether... What's the state of our Askewverse pod? Because here's my pitch to you. Okay. Pretty soon, there are going to be too many, let's just say not, awesome movies. You know what I mean? Maybe coming out later this year.

1:24:45No, I just mean in the Askewverse. You know what I mean? Because if you go up to a certain point with Kevin Smith, it's like these are just Stokehold classics, right? And now it's like he's been making a lot of other Skewverse movies. Yeah. Doesn't he have... He's done Clerks 2. And 3. And 3. I don't... Reboot is about... What happens in Reboot? It's kind of a... It's kind of a hard sequel to Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Which is... I love. It's great. The first, like... All the way up to Jersey Girl, I like all of those movies a lot. Okay. When we get to Jersey Girl, then I have... I think things take a turn.

1:25:23yeah um you're saying are there too many good kevin smith movies my point is like we need to do the skewverse pod so that we don't have like this situation where we're like and then from 2000 after jersey girl on we have to talk about 12 movies that aren't that good to me it's not a kevin smith pod it's the view skew universe pod okay so the view skew universe includes those first five movies but it also includes movies like jane sound bob reboot if Jane Silent Bob are in the movie, if Dante from Clerks is in the movie. I'm glad you've thought this through. If Matt and Ben from the way they're portrayed in Strike Back, for example, are in the movie.

1:26:02Afflecky, the Bomb, and Phantoms, all that. What about as the archangels in Dogma? In Dogma is a definitively universe movie. So Dogma 4K coming later this year. I know, that's maybe, maybe that's the peg. That's the peg. That's the peg. The Kevin Smith thing is tough. Here's the thing. I worshiped Kevin Smith as all guys like me did. it's not an understatement to say that they're like there's no we are not doing anything resembling what we do with our lives without kevin he invented potting in so many ways i think he's just a great figure in the world of movies since he hit the scene i've been pretty tough on him in print a few times so i wouldn't be surprised if he was like you guys could fuck right off oh i wasn't like yeah uh but i would be i would happily sing his praises on a four-hour podcast okay and so we will do it moscow zero what if i look at the dogma 4k and i'm like this looks like shit he cameroned it why is this all green what's with the tinting what's with the ai corrections i haven't had a bad experience yet with tinting i know you you warned me off some of the camerons i know that did you feel any issue with the miller's crossing no that's one that there's some some angst about i think the miller's crossing criterion my experience of Miller's Crossing is either on streaming or honestly probably VHS.

1:27:16So seeing it in that version and getting to see like the wood grain was pretty incredible. I, I pre-ordered my kingdom of heaven director's cut. Yeah. 4k steelbook. And that was$387. It wasn't cheap. Yeah. Uh, and yeah, and I was thinking about getting tombstone on the same format. Yeah. Let's have a steelbook conversation down the road. Okay. I got to get Tim Simons back in here too. So you being able to sit with me and Tim while we do this, I think would be a fun conversation. To have translated into English. Who's doing the translating at this point? Jay and Silent Bob Reboot is out. A Soldier's Revenge, I haven't seen it.

1:27:53Pay Dirt, I haven't seen it. I mean, these films were made after he was using the voice box, you know, because of the surgeries and the radiation that he had. I think he had two tracheotomies and he was still acting in films and then very memorably acting in his final role in Top Gun Maverick where he came back as Iceman and he shares one scene with Tom Cruise, which is mostly wordless from Kilmer and yet tremendously emotionally affecting. Might be the last time I felt anything in my life. Hard to not weep during this sequence. And I think it has to be green because it's the capstone. Yeah, so if you feel like we're running out of room, I think you could make the argument that Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick could occupy one slot since it's the same character.

1:28:32I'm hearing Amanda's voice in my ear right now. Which is what? And it's saying, if you don't put Maverick on this list, I will assassinate you. But why can't we have Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick in one slot? That's not how the Hall of Fame works. So Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick take up two slots on a top 10. Let's go through. So we got to put Real Genius in there, right? Real Genius is staying. Let's just count what we have. We've got Real Genius is green. Top Gun is green. The Doors is green. Tombstone is green. Batman Forever is green. Heat is green. Spartan is green. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is green.

1:29:05Top Gun Maverick is green. That's only nine. so let's put MacGruber in so let me read the yellows just for posterity Top Secret his breakthrough performance Willow Thunderheart True Romance The Saint The Salton Sea Wonderland and MacGruber now does MacGruber belong in over and these are the key ones to me Top Secret Willow and The Saint if you had to choose i think for a lot of people who are younger than us mcgruber will be much more important than real genius you know what i mean like i think that i think we have to kind of understand a little bit about the the passage of time here and for many people this is like honestly like the the last great their introduction to kilmer maybe it's the last great kilmer performance it's you know the most significant now i i i think probably i can't do this pod and i have spartan on it but i understand that spartan is going to be a divisive like out there pick for some people i think if we're doing the um the objective list yes uh willow is on it i think willow is a huge movie for him in his career if you want to i'm granting you i won the power to put spartan i i would i appreciate it and I and I take that power I don't take my right to vote for granted and I'm voting for Spartan do you so what of the yellows do you choose or should I choose no I think I got to I got to push through Spartan so you choose the yellow choose the last yellow I prefer willow to the saint I'm just gonna say it I think that's fine so I think I think the saint is cool so MacGruber not no and no MacGruber okay because we have real genius and just to remind everybody This is my referendum on the films themselves.

1:30:57And it's not necessarily even like how good was Kilmer. Because, you know, Batman Forever has to be on this because he played Batman. Correct. He was at the center of the movie making world. Thank you for clarifying this enterprise. You're always a great partner in these endeavors. So then I'm going to put Willow in green. So the final list is going to be real genius, Top Gun, Willow, The Doors, Batman Forever, Heat, Spartan, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Top Gun Maverick, wait a minute. You didn't say Tombstone. And Tombstone. Thank you. That's pretty good. Yeah. Apologies to some of these other movies.

1:31:36If you only have time for three Val Kilmer films and you haven't seen Tombstone, Heat, or... What's the third? What's the third essential one? Doors? I think the Doors. Yeah, Doors, Tombstone, and Heat. You'll get a picture of the man. I loved Val. He was great. Yeah. It was great to see him in movies. He's one of the five defining dudes of the 90s, I think. Yes. Right? Yeah. Very sad that he's gone. Yeah. It's like, I think it's been, and it's also just like a sad, it's like I thought about Bruce Willis a bunch, you know, in relationship to Val Kilmer and. At this stage of his life. What he's dealing with.

1:32:19Yeah. You know, not only like feeling terribly for their families, but also like, oh, it's a shame that like the last 20 years or so of your life was kind of like spent making these kind of disposable films when we obviously would have gotten so much more. Maybe I should go back and look back at some of those VOD movies because some of those movies could be good. Yeah. You know, so I don't mean to denigrate them. I just haven't seen so many of them. Well, Chris, thanks for joining me. Of course, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks. We can hear you on Moscow Zero. Yeah. Which is a daily pod. It's a daily six-hour pod simulcast on RT.

1:32:53I'm also going to start doing some of those Jubilee videos. I don't know what that is. Yes, you do. You don't know that? No. It's like, usually it's like I take on 20 conservatives and it's like the guy sitting at the table. God, we really need to parody one of those. I saw an extremely stern one this morning on social media that was Kyrie can do everything better than John Stockton can do anything. It was an old guy versus 20 LeBron stans. No, that was Skip versus 20 LeBron stans. Now there's an old guy versus a bunch of guys who are like, you know, Cade Cunningham is better than Magic Johnson.

1:33:32This is me with Val Kilmer and Austin Butler, where I'm like, I really like Austin Butler and I'm happy for him, but sit down and relax. Watch Tombstone again, Austin, all right? You want to get into the temple of weird, beautiful man, you need to go through these pillars yeah thanks to Jack Sanders we'll be back on Friday we're gonna preview the summer movie slate and I had I had David Cronenberg in studio yesterday how did that feel well he was just very kind and he's made some of the most fucked up movies ever and he was great I have one last question for you that I forgot to ask okay who is the director you wish Val Kilmer would have worked with oh while you're thinking David Lynch well you know famously he wanted him for a part in blue velvet but we don't know which part and i don't think it was kyle mclaughlin because the whole thing with blue velvet was we did dune together but what was the part that val was meant to play in that movie right it's kind of i don't know it's not hopper right i doubt it i doubt he was so young but lynch he would have been marvelous with lynch that's a great shout i mean there's the obvious like you know the guys the Coens the Scorseses that we love who I think he would have done great with the Coens because he had that would have been a very good Cronenberg actor a very physical performer um I don't know I mean he the fact that he could work comfortably with David Mamet and Martha Coolidge and real genius and you know Michael Mann I mean these are very different kinds of directors and he was he was he was a real one R.I.P.

1:35:07to Val Kilmer shrouds is good very good very good in terms of late style there's nobody doing it like he's he's a one-on-one so i hope you'll listen to that conversation later this week thanks r sure