The 'Star Wars' Movie Draft

20:08And one is going to be you then stepped on a product and all of that stuff. But if you can do it right, I'll take as much Star Wars as you're willing to give.

20:15Mallory Rubin:I'm in a great place. I think you and I will probably discuss Andor more in depth on this pilot at some point next month. But I do feel like Andor gave me in my 40s what Star Wars gave me when I was seven. And so I'm like, anything else after this is honestly a bonus.

20:30Sean Fennessey:A better understanding of Marxism?

20:31Mallory Rubin:Well, just like that was everything I ever wanted that I couldn't articulate. It was like that adult version of Star Wars and that level of complexity and drama and a world building experience. It's like everything I had ever wanted as an adult from that when we were joking about like, wouldn't it be cool if they set cheers at Mos Eisley? Like, you know, like they gave Tony Gilroy$600 million and that's what he made. And and I'll I mean, so this is like even with Grogu all jokes aside, I'm like, I hope it's good. You know, I will see it. I will see. You're going to come with us. It's fine. Max is counting on it.

21:07Don't let Tom ice out. He also thinks Saquon Barkley is coming. So I'm going to have to bring it like five.

21:13Mallory Rubin:You get like five Noxes counting on it

21:17Sean Fennessey:before I start to get suspicious. Are you excited about it? About Mando Grogu? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, my relationship to any new Star Wars release is generally, I will hope desperately that it's good until I have been robbed of every single reason to allow myself to think that. I love Grogu. Until somehow Palpatine has returned. Until somehow Palpatine returns is one of the low points of my life. I was sitting next to Sean when that happened. And I'm like still. That was a tough one. Yeah. I mean, I think Rise of, I think that everything you're saying, my relationship to the prequels is similar as well, where like I think that Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones are like terrible movies, but the prequels are very important to me and to my Star Wars fandom.

21:57And I think Sith is like just actually genuinely unironically great. I think that two of the three sequel movies are very good. Obviously, one of those two is quite divisive. I think that Rise of Skywalker is not only a bad movie, but a shameful to the like, where do the corporations get in and meddle too much? A shameful manifestation of fearing your own fan base. Right. And the need. And obviously, like we've talked about Ash Jedi over the years. We don't agree on it. That's fine. I think that like a healthy debate about what to do inside of a Star Wars movie is like totally valid. I think the way that that manifested was unfortunate.

22:40And I think that Lucasfilm and Disney feeling that they then had to like walk back the direction of that sequel in order to like appease some of the bad faith voices in the fandom to the point where like not only do things in that movie happen that make no sense. If you've been reading books for years and you're all like current on Palpatine cloning like whatever, but somehow Palpatine Returns is like embarrassing as a story beat and a line of dialogue and all of it. the lack of like confidence to actually follow through on Chewie all of that having like the I agree I said it as soon as the movie ended but it was like this is an insane choice it was like representative of a certain type of fear that was like driving that film and I think the like moment of oh you know like lightsaber should be like the weapon of a jedi should be tweeted treated with more respect is just a sub tweet at the prior film in a way that I think is like deeply lamentable.

23:34When Star Wars is in that place, you can't operate with confidence. I mean, the reason that Andor is so great is because it's an excellent, assured piece of storytelling, but also because it was like created from a place of intention. You can look at Andor and say, New Hope, then we go to Rogue One, and then we go to Andor. And if you want to broaden even further, you can say Rebels takes place in parallel if you're interested in the animated verse. That's a lot of expanded world building and storytelling. That's not like oh you can't keep going back to the same well in Star Wars it's like you have to do it well so Mando Grogu like I think that the question of should that be season four of a tv show or a movie is completely valid and certainly the trailers which like I found very exciting because I think that Grogu is one of the only pure and good things in the last like 10 years of being alive I just think Grogu is iconic and I love him and he makes me really happy I like the one and two of Mando were like really excellent in season three was very uneven sometimes good often bad um I don't know if that should be a show or a movie but like if it's a movie and it's good I don't know that we'll care if it was a movie or a show we'll care that it was good so what do you think so last thing I'll say I know we gotta get into the draft a couple of things number one there is a lot of times we talk about corporate failures and there certainly have been corporate failures from Disney.

25:00But these things to me, to the degree that things are corporatized, it's when story and narrative power fails. And or a lot of money made by our corporation. That's one guy that they said, hey, go do your story, right? When we go back and look at even the intention of, or the construction of the sequel trilogy, three directors on three different movies. Couple got fired. Couple got fired. But like three different, that doesn't make any sense, right? Like that's not the way typically these movies have been made. These movies have been made with a sense of a three-story arc. You're trying to get to something at the end and you're doing that.

25:43You're committed to that. For all of the people who were sickened and disgusted by Jedi turning Luke Skywalker into a coward. That's not what happened in that movie. That's exactly what happened. No, it isn't. by Jedi turning Luke Skywalker also turning into but whatever like turning Skywalker into a coward the reality is if turning Skywalker into a coward is the way that you get to some sublime emotionally and narratively brilliant conclusion in the third movie great but if that gets you to somehow Palpatine has returned I gotta ask why my favorite white boy threw his lightsaber away. And like, that is what leaves you hollow.

26:29This is revisionist history because I agree, obviously, about... This can't be the Last Jedi podcast. No, of course. This can't be that. But you were saying that after Last Jedi, not after Rise of Skywalker. I'm saying what? Those complaints about Last Jedi were in real time. They weren't a result of Rise of Skywalker. No, no, no, no. Last thing I said. But that's not what I mean. Somehow I doubt it. Just real quick. No, no, that's not what I mean. What I mean is that the movie, it's that decision, that storytelling decision could have been made whole if it was going someplace. I agree. Even though we disagree

27:00Sean Fennessey:about The Last Jedi, it still was a failure in that respect because there was no follow-through on whatever storytelling decisions were made in The Last Jedi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Hold on, hold on, hold on. So Luke Skywalker is your favorite white boy? Ever. Of all the white boys? Of any white boy ever. Luke Skywalker and then Ryan Gosling from Drive. Close number two. Get on that level, yeah. Where do CR and Sean rank? I mean, these are my white boys. That'll count. You know what I'm saying? Wow. Well, we're going to get Ryan Gosling very soon in a Star Wars movie. He killed it in that one.

27:34Didn't say shit, just drove and fucked people up. I love it.

27:38Sean Fennessey:Somehow, I don't think that's going to be the energy he brings to Starfighter based on his past few films and Sean Levy's oeuvre. We got to draft movies, and obviously there are only 11 of these movies. And as we've noted, some of them are quite bad. And that's so weird for something to be so special to so many people and also to be almost evenly divided between the good and the bad. Close to. So with that in mind, I've devised a slightly new kind of draft for us. Different kinds of categories than we've done before. And I'm hopeful that you guys... Possibly more strategic in a lot of ways. I think so.

28:13So just to clarify, then, the animated theatrical release Clone Wars from 08 is not eligible. Well, I'll put it on the board to have a discussion about it.

28:20Sean Fennessey:I've not seen the film. not seen it. I would consider it I was honestly ranking my favorite white boys. Number one. It's a whole other episode. I don't know. I mean, I was going to ask where Ben Affleck is on your list. Oh, boy. Batfleck is up there. But I count Ben and Matt as well. What about Ad Rock? Come on, man. Let's talk about I mean, shout out to them. But like, nah, they're not out. They're not up there. Okay. All right. That's okay. Shout out to them, but we're not, you know. Wow. I mean, I put fucking Chipper Jones above.

28:57I know there's some problematic shit I

29:17Really was I know Chipper is who Chipper is.

29:22Mallory Rubin:So you fucking don't like Last Jedi and you like Chipper Jones. Chipper Jones was the baddest motherfucker at third base for a long time for my favorite team. It's diminishing returns, man.

29:33Sean Fennessey:As always, I'm glad you're here, but what the fuck? I'm just being for real, man. Okay, here are the categories that we're going to be drafting from. Seven categories for five drafters. That's going to be 35 draft picks. The categories are as follows. Movie. This is very simple. You draft a movie. a Star Wars movie.

29:50Mallory Rubin:One of 11 or 12 films.

29:51Sean Fennessey:One of 11 or 12 films. Wait, so what is the 12th one? So The Clone Wars, which is an animated film, but it was a theatrical release. It was. It made$80 million. In theory, it should, it could be eligible. You're right, it's eligible. And it is the first installment of what became a more than decade-long running animated series, which I will say to you once again, especially if Alice has said, Anakin Skywalker is my favorite character, you simply must watch The Clone Wars. Now, the movie, pretty bad. I'm trying to limit the screen time here. So the idea of like an 80 episode animated series is a lot.

30:21It's more than 80 episodes. The Clone Wars and Rebels are both wonderful. Rebels is, I think, one of the best Star Wars products, period, ever. I really would recommend it. The movie, the Clone Wars movie is pretty bad. The television show is really good. The movie is pretty bad. However, Radha the Hutt, Jabba's son, known by Stinky in that movie, is, of course, a character in Mando Grogu, voiced by Jeremy Allen White. So you could consider it homework.

30:45Mallory Rubin:Is it just voice or is he doing any circus stuff? Andy circus stuff where he's like I have this on set I hope so

30:51Sean Fennessey:maybe we'll find out with one of those behind the scenes mocap videos where he's got a tennis ball on his head he's like smoking he's just like I'm trying to get Roddy's head yeah does he sing any Bruce songs in the film I honestly feel like the number of times I personally in my little screen of just doing that meme with all the numbers and like trying to understand what's happening is already at like 15 we're gonna write each other out but we're also I've already googled what is the chronicological order of all the Star Wars properties. Chronicological. So, and now I'm reading a Reddit page and I'm reading about Attack of the Clones, which I was conflating with clone.

31:27It's fine. I did do homework for this. I prepared my own version.

31:31Sean Fennessey:She and I chatted last night.

31:33Mallory Rubin:We're talking.

31:34Sean Fennessey:Sounds like it was a good talk. Okay. Second category after movie. This is movie you've been cursed with. Yeah. Can you explain this one to us? Yes. you will be drafting a movie for someone else and you will be cursing them with that movie for example we know that Van does not like The Last Jedi coming around to it but no it's too late you don't like The Last Jedi and you do like Chipper Jones it's done now there's two ways to think about this

32:03Mallory Rubin:you guys better put that as the lower third for Van

32:07Sean Fennessey:Chipper Jones don't forget you exist alongside Van's favorite white boys with Chipper Jones. You're in league with him as am I. So this is complicated for us.

32:16Mallory Rubin:I mean, it's a big tribe, the white boys. You know what I mean? There can be different sides of the aisle there.

32:21Sean Fennessey:And you say growing stronger every day. Luke Skywalker being number one is not really a list you want to be on, in my opinion.

32:28Mallory Rubin:303 career batting average, 468 home runs. Please, no more. That's a curse. You're basically saying, hey, I know you don't like this, fuck you.

32:36Sean Fennessey:Or we all agree this movie isn't good and you're cursed with it. So you're not only selecting the film, but the person to get it to. Now, you can only give it to, like, there's only one pick per person. So if Amanda gives me a movie and I give Mal a movie, you know, me and Mal can't.

32:52Mallory Rubin:So just to clarify, though, movies can be drafted again in Cursed? No.

32:58Sean Fennessey:There's only 11 movies available, period, because there's only two pure movie categories. So the movies category will be good movies that we like. Like the movie you're cursed with is we are assigning what we think is either overall the worst movie or the one that is most personally galling to the person we're giving. Correct. So like we could to just stick with the animated example, Chris famously hates animation, could give Chris Clone Wars because he despises animation and doesn't think it's a viable art form. You absolutely could do that. Interesting. Okay. But it's not eligible. I'll say it is eligible.

33:30Sean Fennessey:Why not? Which is, I mean. Now there are two movies I haven't seen. It also just, it brings Ahsoka into the character set. So I think that is meaningful. Just throw that out there. Ahsoka. Throw it out. You know you're right. I think it's more meaningful than inclusion.

33:50Sean Fennessey:That's hard. That's hard. How was I supposed to know how it was spelled? No one at home can see what you see. Oh my God. Okay. The third category is Skywalker family member. Okay. Okay. So we were talking about this before you got here because you, Sean Fennessey, the architect of this demented game.

34:09Mallory Rubin:The architect from The Matrix. Have been dealing out inconsistent information. And you and I had a long chat in the press box at CinemaCon about who was and was not a Skywalker. And you were doing, you were being a little bloodline about it. You were saying no one by marriage.

34:27Sean Fennessey:No, that's absolutely not true. That did not happen. See, now he's angry just because. Season three. You just completely lied. Like, that did not happen. In fact, I just talked to Mallory about this yesterday. That's fine. You lied on him. You said in the press box sitting next to him. Should we be picturing you guys? That was completely made up, and I don't know what you're talking about, because I did not say that. I was literally naming people, and you were like, no, that's not a Skywalker. It's fine. I'm envisioning the two of you like Palpatine and Anakin in the opera box, and the evil head turned like this.

34:57Sean Fennessey:Not by a Jedi. Yeah, not by a Jedi. No, marriage is eligible. Children are eligible. Well, no. So bloodline, marriage, and you could get creative. Okay. Was there a press box? Interesting.

35:08Mallory Rubin:There's a press area. I like the idea of you tapping away on your - That is what it is. It's hundreds of people with their laptops open. People are straight up in the CMS typing up their pieces while it's there. Did Darth Blagueis the Wise come up at all when you two were talking?

35:22Sean Fennessey:No fucking way. Right. Well, yeah. Okay. Wow. Look at this collaboration. Allegedly, yes, this person is because they're married in by marriage. So there you go. This is fascinating. You're working together. Van is helping Amanda. I'm not helping. That could come into play. You wouldn't call Lars a Skywalker. Nope. Well, but by marriage. By marriage, he would, yeah. Klee Lars would be eligible as Shmi's husband. That's what, that's, yes. That's true. I was about to draft that person. I don't know if that would be the choice. I don't know. But. Is that Owen? Owen is. Klee. Klee. Klee married Shmi.

35:57Where's he at? And then Owen. Is that Joel Edgerton? Owen is Joel Edgerton. Klee is the guy remember he's in come to him it's like he married yeah it doesn't matter I'm not gonna drive we don't really need to worry about Lars I mean it's not the deepest category you never know I was about to get into a whole patriarchy type thing like if you marry who can marry into somebody's family you know yeah would you let Chipper Jones marry into your family I would just say Star Wars is in many ways about found family and we should have a pretty broad interpretation of what family is that's my opinion Chipper advanced Thanksgiving

36:29Sean Fennessey:we're fully decked out I'm a real tree. Okay, the fourth category is hero or villain. I have a question. Oh, God. Shoot. So a character can only be drafted in one category.

36:40Mallory Rubin:Yes. Of course, characters are eligible in more than one category. So if a character is taken in Skywalker, they cannot also be taken in hero-villain. Why are hero and villain together instead of being two separate categories?

36:50Sean Fennessey:Because that's what I wanted to do. Okay. Damn. A lot of characters in Star Wars. We could have gone even deeper. It's really fun when you're in charge of this. We could have been here all day. Could have been here all day. This is so far going great. the fifth category is vehicle okay Chris just looked at his watch no I was just curious where we were at 97 % of the vote though my first ballot hall of fame 97 % we'll be editing you entirely out of this episode vehicle can be anything it can be an individual vehicle that one character is known for flying or driving

37:24Mallory Rubin:for an actor who appeared in a film

37:26Sean Fennessey:No, that's not eligible. It can be various military vehicles that we know about from the Empire or the Rebellion. This is one where I was like, no problem. I got this. The next category is problematic character. Oh, in what regard? Well, I would like to leave this open to interpretation. Cool. To me, I feel like you can read a lot of characters that are beloved as problematic, and you can read a lot of problematic characters as beloved. It's one of the interesting things about this series is that it is obsessed with cultural heritage, but not specifically race in the way that we think about it.

38:07Sean Fennessey:And it's come under some fire over the years. And then there's other characters where I'm like, why is that not a problem? We can explore that here. Okay, so then it could be the more overtly way we think about this is problematic. So we're not talking like problematic fave. This is a character for derision and ridicule. You just have to make the case when you're in the pack. I think if you're like, I'm horny for Kylo Ren, that can be your pick. I mean, a lot of long established facts here at the Ringer podcast. But more specifically, I think cultural problematism is what we're discussing here.

38:37Okay.

38:37Sean Fennessey:Jar Jar's already been invoked. Jar Jar, a historically problematic movie character. But you could go the Kylo route or another character. Okay. You got to make a good case for it. I think it will make for an entertaining category. Interesting. Good? Okay. The last category is wild card, which is literally any cool thing about Star Wars. Anything. Anything. It could be an object. It could be a person. Oh. It could be... If you want it to be a TV show, it could be that. Okay. Oh, whoa. You could do anything. Now, you can't... There's no addressing TV shows otherwise throughout the other six categories.

39:08Mallory Rubin:Although, Rogue One will have some of our favorite characters.

39:11Sean Fennessey:Yes. And so then, because some of those characters appear on TV shows, you will be able to claim them because they appear in Rogue One.

39:17Mallory Rubin:And Mandalorian, Grogu counts, doesn't count. We haven't seen it yet,

39:21Sean Fennessey:so I feel like it's not... We shouldn't make it eligible yet. Okay. So like the Razorcrest ship is not eligible in vehicle because that's just been in trailer so far in the television show. Nothing from the. OK, cool. Interesting. Nothing from the TV shows is eligible in the draft. Yeah, it's the movie's draft. It's got to come from the movies. This is the big picture. Yes. All right. Tell me what else. Jeez. Does that make sense? Of course. There are, of course, many of the canonical characters have appeared in both film and television. Of course. A lot of them. But not all of them. Not all of them.

39:49Mallory Rubin:Right.

39:50Sean Fennessey:But you've just found a loophole for Ahsoka Tano. So that's good for you.

39:53Mallory Rubin:And now, if you come in last place in the voting, do you promise now, in front of everyone, to do the entire Odyssey pod as Jar Jar?

40:07Sean Fennessey:Just checking in. How many more Jar Jar jokes do you have?

40:14Sean Fennessey:I would say, I honestly don't know if draft order is crucial here. Is it crucial? I think so.

40:20Mallory Rubin:I don't know. We know that you think so. I'm here for the vibes. You could think so, but I think you also have a very specific view of... I personally think having a top three pick... Yeah. Well, I think having a top three pick would be meaningful, but I think it's such a deep set of candidates in many of these categories that, like, no one's fucked no matter where they end up. And obviously, coming around quicker on the turn is, I think, very beneficial in this draft. So, you could probably make your piece no matter what.

40:49Sean Fennessey:Okay. Jack Sanders, we need the draft order. Van what the fuck are you doing man Chipper Jones are you kidding me we're laying on the ground we're dying and you're kicking us while we're down Chipper was the man what the fuck

41:01Mallory Rubin:he was not one of the best high school players of all time as well this is look shameful drafting first is Sean wow wow drafting first is who you know it's been a while though I think it's been a while fucking annoying

41:14Sean Fennessey:it's nice to hear it's nice to hear that that home cooking here everything's coming up

41:18Mallory Rubin:fantasy this week that's so nice drafting second is Mallory okay I feel fine now

41:26interesting I feel pretty good drafting third is Van nice

41:31Mallory Rubin:where Chipper Jones used to bat right third hot corner he played third fourth Amanda and fifth Chris Ryan okay okay how do you feel about that we'll see yeah that's okay wow I think I know what you're gonna do at five actually I feel happy for you I actually think this board worked out well probably for what every individual person wants to do. Then it's going to be boring.

41:55Sean Fennessey:Can you repeat the draft order so I can remember it?

41:59Mallory Rubin:Sean first, Mal second, Van third, Amanda fourth, Chris fifth. I'll put it up on the TV and it's in the doc as well.

42:06Sean Fennessey:Okay, that's exciting. Gosh. Sheesh. I feel like one and two are both extremely strong positions. I agree. I actually think the top three is really good. The top three? Yeah. Yeah. Yes I feel like there's a clear order in the top three I agree When we get through the top three picks We'll see if we're thinking the same thing But I suspect we are There could be chaotic movies made early on There could be chaotic movies as well It's a draft There's always some chaos I think Chalk as Empire Strikes Back Is the first overall pick Which is one of the greatest movies ever made Is the greatest sequel ever made It's better than Godfather 2 in my opinion What is with you in Godfather 2?

42:50It's got some flaws. Yeah, what are they?

42:52Sean Fennessey:There's a three and a half hour podcast where I illuminated some of them. I prefer to re-listen to JFK. I really love it. I think it's a great film. But I like The Empire Strikes Back more. And it hit me at a different time in my life. And I think it's amazing that it turned out the way that it did. Because it wasn't as fully conceived as we like to think it was. The more you read about it, the more you realize that while Lucas had an idea for a trilogy, he had not really mapped out where that movie was going to go. And that very smart decision to make the movie darker, to give it a bummer ending, to, I think, center Han in the way that he did in the movie.

43:30Sean Fennessey:And that's solo. I think it's an incredible feat of movie storytelling. And it's my favorite Star Wars movie. And I would say A New Hope is right behind it. You know, like it's right up there. But Empire Strikes Back in movie, which I think is fairly straightforward would others have gone in a different direction? I would have. I would not have gone in a different direction. I would have done that same thing. You would have gone in a different direction.

43:53Mallory Rubin:I would have gone New Hope, yeah. This is going to work out well for you because I know what you would have done at number one and you're going to get to do it at three because I am taking a New Hope and Van will be taking Darth Vader. So because those were clearly the top three picks in some order, I think no question. But at the end of the day, I think that the character fields, all of them are just much deeper and stronger than the movie field again kind of like a little bit of an irony inside of star wars where uh the quality is most limited in the films themselves and then there are all of these iconic people and things and ideas inside of them uh empire also my favorite star wars movie i would have taken it at one but i'm thrilled to have new hope at two like it's a coin flip between those two two of the most iconic and important movies ever made and A New Hope changed movies.

44:42It changed genre films, but it changed movies and it changed movie history and it is one of the most seminal and foundational installments in the history of story. I think that its connection to this larger tapestry, again, whether it's like The Hero's Journey or something like how did Frank Herbert's Dune inspire George Lucas and now you look at the Dune movies and there's this new generation of filmgoers who are like, wow, that's a lot like Star Wars and then you get people to discover the actual connected nature of these things across time. It's like, it's just inextricable from the history of story and movies.

45:15If you made me pick, even though A New Hope is not my favorite Empire is, if you made me pick my single favorite moment in Star Wars history, I'm like gonna cry. It's Binary Sunsets. There's just nothing like it.

45:27Mallory Rubin:It's like, isn't that why we get the best piece, guys? We have a tissue in the back? It's the best. So I just, it's, yeah. Chris is gonna try too. I'm thrilled. and I'm happy the van gets to take the

45:40Sean Fennessey:would you have done Vader at one yeah yeah okay well so the question is what category because you can draft him in Skywalker family or you can draft him in hero or villain see this is what I always get fucked up in drafts I'm going to take him in hero or villain interesting yeah I should have probably taken him in Skywalker family I'm going to take him in hero now that category gets a little slimmer Boy, okay. Yeah, I'm going to take him here. I'm going to thin that out a little bit. I think that this is, it's difficult to talk about how iconic the character is. One of the most iconic characters in American and world cultural history.

46:25And interesting, when you first see, this is, to me, a gauge of how Star Wars was when it was creatively pure and kicking. throughout the three movies you got more Darth Vader but as you got more Darth Vader the character got deeper and better so the idea that like the more Star Wars you get the more it's watered down is directly refuted by the character arc to me of the of Vader that the entire thing is oriented around you get a little bit of him he's scared you get more of him you learn that he has this cosmic tragedy that he looks at his son for redemption for. And then at the end, he gets that redemption.

47:09So you get more of Vader and it gets better. That to me is Star Wars. He is synonymous with villain, with evil, but he is also synonymous with twisted good. He's the breathe, the breathing, the moving, the lights, everything. Cool ass motherfucker that your heart goes out to. To me, I can't think really of a character that is superior to him in culture period as far as mythology is concerned.

47:41Sean Fennessey:How much of this pick is a pick for Anakin as it is a pick for Darth Vader?

47:46Mallory Rubin:Does this pick take Anakin off the board? It does.

47:48Sean Fennessey:Yeah. It does. Yeah. It has to. Anakin is a whole other character. He's the same person. Yes. You know what's funny is he is a whole other character, but in a way he's not. He is a whole other character. But the darkness that manifests itself that has always existed inside of Anakin Skywalker is this idea that we all have that thing that if someone sees it and decides to pull us out of it, to pull it out of us, should I say, that we can become that. So Darth Vader is as much a part of Anakin's nature as he's genociding sand people, right? Like as he's doing all the stuff that he does, it's just as much a part of him as the goodness that's a part of him.

48:33The selflessness that's a part of him. The women and the children too. Yeah. So like to me, these guys are like one and the same. And the movie is about how someone can see you and take advantage of you and use you, use your power to their end. George Lucas has said like many times Star Wars is if it had to be distilled to one thing it's the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker you can't say Anakin and Vader are separate people you just can't. so

48:54Sean Fennessey:whenever I'm having a bad day yeah I just open up YouTube and I look at the sequence at the end of Rogue One when Vader is annihilating rebels fucking awesome yeah and it's like we've discussed this multiple times on pods before it's like it's the one time really the one time when I got the very small feeling of childhood Star Wars enjoyment yeah of like I'm six yeah and this is exactly what it was like or what I wanted to see when he's, you know, using the force to raise people to the roof of the corridor there. And it's interesting that like they gave us just a little, little, just a tiny

49:34Mallory Rubin:taste of that over the

49:36Sean Fennessey:last 10 years. Now he did show up on the fucking whatever TV show, was it Obi-Wan and Obi? Yeah. He's in the shows a lot. I mean, he's there. I mean, Anakin is the main character of the Clone Wars show and Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are also the main characters of that. But not theatrical movie Darth Vader. Yeah, Vader is in Rebels. You're going to get that childhood feeling of wonder when you watch Ahsoka and Vader duel in the season two finale of Rebels, Twilight of the Apprentice, and that mask cracks and you see Anakin's eye and he says, Ahsoka. It's something to look forward to, you know? We have so little left in this life.

50:07More Beatles movies than that.

50:09Sean Fennessey:That's tough. I don't know if I have 200 episodes of animated Star Wars in front of me. You're going to love it. Rebels is fantastic. Rebels is great. Okay, excellent and interesting pick for the future of this game. Okay, so Amanda, you're fourth. I've been spending this entire time deciding whether I want to do this to Chris. And I kind of have to. Damn.

50:33Mallory Rubin:Interesting. And I'm really, and I know. Well, honestly, it'll open up the floodgates. I think it is the correct thing. But I want you to know that you're my friend and that you were. I think that when you think about your blank check appearance, your last couple of months of podcasting. You've been laying the groundwork to do what I think you're about to do. That's true. Blank Check was recorded many months ago so I don't remember. I was like, did I make fun of Chris? This is also my guy. It is your guy, but I do have to, in Skywalker, take Skywalker by marriage, Han Solo. Who is just a very hot, charismatic man and is my entry point into what is exciting about Star Wars.

51:19And it's very funny watching it with a small child who is way more into Luke and even Leia. And I keep being like, but what about that guy? You interested in Han Solo? Look at him. He's swashbuckling. He's doing fun. Oh, you don't like Han? I love Solo. Yeah. But I think him being in the Skywalker category. By marriage. I think you two did the categories in the opposite way. I would have taken Vader in Skywalker and I would have taken Han in Hero. but it doesn't I mean at the end of the day Han Solo I'm playing by the rules you're playing by the rules exactly he just yelled at me about it you're playing by the rules and you know he did the nostril flare and everything

51:58Sean Fennessey:don't lie don't lie it's that simple don't lie it's fine that you don't remember any conversation we've ever had but you can't turn it on me this is an incredibly strong machine right here except when it comes to social interactions with other people that's fine I never doubted that Amanda would be selecting Han Solo in the first round. And frankly, I thought if Amanda got the first pick, she would have taken Han Solo there. I don't know whether I... The one question Adam asked me before is, what will you do, depending on how the board falls, if Amanda gets Han before you? And I said, I am prepared for that.

52:29We're the two greatest Harrison Ford enthusiasts. For me, a thousand percent. Luke Skywalker...

52:36Mallory Rubin:He never slips. Yeah. He never fucks up. Skywalker is kind of whiny and also has the burden of expectation. He has the burden of the name. Han Solo is just there to have a good time and, you know, fall in love with Leia. Listen, I love you. I know. Like, A+. It taught a whole generation of women to not expect that much from men. But also, you know, when the going gets tough, you're going to get, like, half an admission of emotion. You know what? Let's beat down this Lilith Fair oriented narrative around Solo right now. Yeah. You know why she appreciated it? Why? because she knew that that took a lot.

53:17Leia. Leia, yeah. Because she knew how much it took for him in that moment to connect with that. That was Han giving his best at that time, which we used to be able to do for one another. You know? Yeah. I agree, but he also didn't have to say too much, which I really appreciate. You don't want to say too much ever. did the movie Solo which is a part of this draft

53:44Sean Fennessey:it sure is dilute Han as a character for you I wasn't as mad as everybody else about that saying hashtag make Solo 2 happen I went back and watched it again

53:54Mallory Rubin:and it's not Alden's fault no I agree with that nobody other than Harrison Ford should be asked if it's not Solo

54:02Sean Fennessey:I agree it's not his fault it's an incredible bungle in a million directions totally it's way off the firing Lord Miller which is we now see in the light of Project Hail Mary's day what an absolute nightmare decision that was not letting those guys try to figure out a new tone for Star Wars which could have set up an entirely interesting new future getting scared of the tone that they were going for there was horrible Alden's fine I like him a lot as an actor but the movie is just as I think I wrote a column about it when the movie came out I was like this movie's not special there's nothing exciting about telling this story and it's the same vibes that I'm getting from Mando right now.

54:39Mallory Rubin:The most like hold your breath moment of Solo is him playing cards with Lando. You're like oh shit this is like like Don Glummer's really going for it here and that but like all the action sequences the train robbery's okay. Sounds like we can curse Sean with Solo. That's what's I don't think it's the worst

54:55Sean Fennessey:Star Wars movie I just think it's kind of a nothing. Has anyone ever told you you have some Dryden Vos vibes?

55:01Mallory Rubin:Oh. How are we telling that? The drafts bring that out in me. Great pleasure yacht though First Light. oh bet me oh I mean there could be worse things to be compared to he was the man in that movie

55:12Sean Fennessey:not a bad villain yeah he worked pretty good villain anyway Han Solo I'm sorry Chris great pick that's okay okay CR those are the I would say those are the big four yeah in this draft

55:22Mallory Rubin:Skywalker family I'm gonna take Luke Skywalker who while he goes up and down over the course of the sequels I would say for those first three films and especially some of the shit he pulls in Return of the Jedi. He was just my guy, you know? Sure. Like, doing the backflip off of the prison barge. Yeah? That's your first example? Of what he does that's cool? Iconic. Killed his dad, too. That was sick. But, no, Luke Skywalker is, like, he and Han are the ways in for Star Wars, and I think are ultimately, like, the kind of missing pieces of the prequel for me. It was just, like, I never really got into Hayden Christensen.

56:05Mallory Rubin:Also, like, you kind of know where that's going. And Han Solo is like the cool factor that I think the prequels missed for me. Like that kind of like get a load of all this shit attitude. I don't know why I'm talking about Han Solo. Clearly mad that I didn't get to draft him. But Luke is the root of all the mythological stuff that I think attracts people to Star Wars across generations. And it's just like a kid from nowhere becoming the most important thing in the universe. It's like this really powerful dream, you know? Yeah. And when you say from nowhere, you mean hidden. And in his father's home, still drives me crazy that they made that choice.

56:42Sean Fennessey:Just a very quick sidebar. Whenever I'm playing Star Wars with my daughter, she's always like, be this person. And then there's like a line that you go to, to be that person. So whenever she's like, be Luke Skywalker, I always say, I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you. Like there's like some. Oh, okay. Give us a little Tosche station. A little power converter. Power converters. Yeah, power converters. Yeah. that's not true for Han that's impossible what do you think is the like go to Han line boring conversation anyway I like that one you like almost can't pick there are so many well that was why I asked the question so you could pick oh but I mean it's like god every Han moment is iconic I never know what to say when she's like do Han yeah I just love that you could use a kiss I do think I love you I know is very high on the list never tell me the odds obviously iconic.

57:36That's a good one. I like that one. Perhaps counterintuitively, some of the subtler Han moments are actually the best ones, especially on a rewatch. Like, you know, Luke training with the training remote and Han challenging Obi-Wan heading into that, you know, first step into a larger world moment, which is also iconic. That's the quintessential Han line to me. Exactly. That Han moment is sort of like... Hokey religions is not going to be a good one. That is his mantra. And you just understand his world view from that moment so clearly. And then, of course, when you build toward like something like in Force Awakens.

58:06That's not how the Force works. You feel like you have just lived an entire life with this person. That's fandom at its best, I think.

58:11Mallory Rubin:Okie Religions was my yearbook quote. Thank you. It was really good. You know what my favorite moment from Han ever is though? That to me told me about the character when I was a kid. This is just off for Luke. We just immediately started talking about it. There's a reason Han went first. I love Luke Skywalker. But my favorite Han moment is actually the moment where Luke feigns that he has incestual love for his sister. And Han... Fanes? That's a very generous interpretation. That's the way I look at it now. Yeah. Okay. The proto-Targaryens. Let's be real. And Han right away starts fucking with him.

58:45Like right away starts poking holes in Luke. Peacocking. Just right away. I don't know. Maybe a guy... And he's not serious about it at all. He's just fucking with the kid, Han Solo. Han Solo. Perfect. And that's kind of what Star Wars was for me at the first.

58:59Mallory Rubin:So, you know what you're going to do here. Yeah, you have to do it. I'm going to take Rogue One. Of course you are. A movie that's probably like got two things going for and against it. One, Sean's point about the Darth Vader scene at the end. I don't think I remembered a single thing about Rogue One other than that because it was so intense that I had like a blackout because of how I felt at the very end of that film. and then Andor coming along and expanding it and giving so much of Rogue One a resonance and a meaning that it maybe didn't have on first viewing. But watching Rogue One after Andor, we did a pod about that.

59:38Mallory Rubin:I thought it really deepened my experience. And Rogue One is just the best version of the Disney Star Wars experiment so far, I think, in terms of on big screen, to me. I think that despite a lot of MacGuffins and planet hopping, like it still has like a through line that I that I really attach myself to it's got a great villain it's got incredible set pieces and I think is is gonna age very well so I'll go Rogue One and movies Scarif's sequence still just looks astonishing that like kind of crystalline water oh gorgeous yeah

1:00:12Sean Fennessey:yeah I think it's also like underrated it's got Ben Mendelsohn and Mads Mikkelsen and it's got great actors and really great parts credit goals yeah Donnie Yen yeah Donnie Yen yeah it's really slick. It's more grown up. It's the most grown up of the movies. And I actually did watch it with Alice and while we were watching it I was like, this is a war movie. This is a real trench warfare movie. And there's some great spy stuff and there's some fun Star Wars lore components of it. But it is a really down and dirty bomb them out of their hole kind of film. And even just the ideas and the conversations are so mature and nuanced.

1:00:47You know, Cassian like, now it's real for you is one of I think the great subtle challenges character to character in Star Wars history. This is a draft. I think it's been a super great celebration so far. I'm curious. Do you guys think we should try to tear Chris down a little bit and put on the record that he has come out in support of CGI Tarkin? What do you think?

1:01:04Mallory Rubin:Oh, I don't mind that. Yeah. Of all the great crimes committed against humanity in the last 15 years, either CGI Tarkin. You think Peter Cushing would have been into it? No. I mean, if they had to cut the check.

1:01:15Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Did the Cushing fam, did the estate get paid for that?

1:01:18Mallory Rubin:British people in general.

1:01:20Sean Fennessey:Who is Grand Moff Tarkin? That is so fucking, she's killing me over here. No, I just Google CGI Tarkin to get a visual. CGI Tarkin. Every time we say something, I look over here. Well, maybe I need a visual. But at the end of the day, she has Han Solo so she can win the book. Do whatever. Click him. If you don't look bad, click him.

1:01:36Mallory Rubin:You could try this, but I just think English actors, if you're like, here's the direct deposit. Like, Michael Caine is me. Ethically, I'm not thrilled about it. I love Rogue One.

1:01:44Sean Fennessey:I love Rogue One. I feel like they did get the estate's approval. Sure. Did they? I don't remember how that worked. Would you give approval for CGI Sean? Who am I giving it to? Me. Well, I would never give that. You're giving it to William Simmons? No. Yeah.

1:02:01Sean Fennessey:Okay. Okay. Now Amanda has her second pick. In movie, I'm taking The Last Jedi. Okay. Which I know you would use as a curse, but I was very moved by it when I saw it in theaters. I rewatched it this morning. Was equally moved by it. I guess I sort of understand. I do understand the reading of it as, if not like a betrayal of fans, but that movie connects with me because I do not identify as like a Star Wars capital F fan. And it is a real opening of the world and not just who can be a Jedi, but who can watch these movies and connect to them in any sort of way. And so I find part of that. And I really, I find the Rey stuff until Rise of the Skywalker very moving.

1:02:46If I didn't get Last Jedi, I was going to take Force Awakens just because of the scene. So good movie. Once she gets the lightsaber. Like at the end, I will never forget that. And I'm not like a... Firestool and Force Awakens is awesome. You know, I'm not a sentimental person in that kind of way. In addition to that, Last Jedi is like funny with great performances and looks really good. I mean, the final showdown, the showdown in the red throne room. The throne room is great. But then also when you have Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker dueling it out. Yeah. I mean, it's just... Holdo maneuver. That looks amazing.

1:03:20It's made like incredible. That's Laura Dern. You know, like it's made so well. And with such a love of the franchise, I think. But then the willingness to turn it over, which I understand. Van's angry. Van has been nice to me and I'm sitting next to him. So like, I'll be nice about it, even though I do kind of, I think you're wrong, but that's okay. I was very moved by The Last Jedi and that's that's my pick it's a great movie it's a great movie

1:03:46Mallory Rubin:it really is it just pokes all I think some of your Reddit posts from that era kind of trade that opinion but yeah I think there's a question of whether it's a savvy pick in a draft that people will be voting on given how it is I don't consider it what have I given a fuck yeah I love The Last Jedi it's a perfect pick for you

1:04:03Sean Fennessey:I think it's a great movie I'm really happy that you picked it I love this movie I think it's fantastic and like I wish Rian Johnson had gotten to make more Star Wars movies. And I think, to me, the Luke stuff in that movie is really bold and brave and interesting. And it's like what you said earlier about religion, like thinking of Star Wars as a religion. Like, who doesn't question their faith at some point? You know, to confront our sacred ideal of the chosen one in a moment of feeling really lost and confused about the thing he has put his entire sense of self and life and the world into because of a choice.

1:04:39that he made and mistakes he made and also choices other people made. I just thought it was such an interesting decision to explore that. And, you know, it's funny because like watching your face when Holdo was invoked, there are so many different things you can point to in that movie that like it's a litmus test for how you feel about the movie, but maybe more broadly, like playing with these things. Like obviously there was a lot of like did the Holdo maneuver break canon and then a lot of rebukes to that.

1:05:03Mallory Rubin:But I will never forget in terms of do like hyperspace lanes work that way. But I will literally never forget watching Last Jedi in the theater for the first time and the sound being sucked out of the theater when that happened. Do you remember what that felt like? That's like a great movie theater movie. Did you see that at Disney? I saw it at Arclight. I remember walking over from the office and seeing it at Arclight. You and I saw it at Disney

1:05:23Sean Fennessey:together. One sentence. Not fucking invited. Making Luke Skywalker hold a lightsaber and decide on whether or not he's going to murder his nephew in cold blood is akin to me to making Seth Rogue and James Bond. That right there, I understand characters and all of that stuff.

1:05:44Mallory Rubin:I think there are three people at this table who just don't care about those rules. I understand that.

1:05:52Sean Fennessey:I can't do this with you, but I will just say it's an amazing echo of the crisis in the prequels. It's just a fascinating future exploration of the problem of Anakin. It's all connected in my mind that what they did not learn through Anakin he had to seriously consider through Ben. That to me is really strong thematic storytelling. I really love that choice. I understand why it upsets people. I understand why we have this kind of Jesus Christ-like idea of Luke Skywalker. Oh, so your problem is like a Superman like Luke Skywalker can't even think about killing people type thing? No, my problem is that.

1:06:28My problem is the entire galaxy. Luke has legitimately devoted his life to building his power where he could rebuke the Empire. all of what he did has been undone Han is in the wind his sister is in trouble he's pouting on the planet it just doesn't make any sense and to me

1:06:46Sean Fennessey:middle age is tough though I'm figuring it out it feels more real now even than it did five years ago sometimes you're like I just want to take my ball and go home it's a very beautiful planet it's a gorgeous planet he got that green milk straight from the teat man and I do like those I like those I think it's a great pick too to be clear it didn't even occur to me that it would be controversial in a voting... I mean, I know that it will, but I don't acknowledge those people. Like, please don't vote for me. And then go find another free podcast. If I was taking the movie, I would have taken Jedha.

1:07:21If I was going to take a movie, I would have taken Jedha. Well, you'll have your chance right now. I'm not going to take Jedha. I'm going to take a vehicle. Oh, nice. I'm going to take the most iconic thing to me in Star Wars that is still left on the board. Okay. And I'm going to take the Millennium Falcon.

1:07:40Sean Fennessey:That's a great pick. Yeah. Awesome pick. When I look up and down when I look up and down the board. Yeah. You now have the Millennium Falcon and Darth Vader. That's pretty good. Yeah. So like to me when you think of Star Wars you think of all of these characters but the one thing where all of this shit was going down and really encapsulates what the Rebels were trying to do in the original trilogy is that broken down rust bucket of a ship that somehow was still the fucking fastest thing in the galaxy.

1:08:09Mallory Rubin:I was thinking about this. I'm really glad you picked it because I also think it's representative of you. Millennium Falcon is for the homies. It's for everybody. We're all gonna, you have to go down here and shoot. You have to target like top fighters. I'm gonna go plot the course. You know, you do this. X-Wing Fighter, it's you and a droid. You know what I mean? X-Wing Fighter is more of like a solo thing. It's more of blast shield down. I'm just gonna fucking feel the trench room. Some of us like to be alone, you know? Well, I mean, I think it's an interesting witness test if you prefer the vehicle of a solo artist or one that's like me and everybody we're going to gamble a little bit here we're going to play some cards and then we're going to go fight some shit

1:08:44Sean Fennessey:you're a collaborator

1:08:46Mallory Rubin:yeah as well yeah love it Falcon also just one of the true genuine through lines of the entire franchise it is so valuable dubious ownership history the car facts on that is kind of yeah tough to get that vehicle insured at this point okay Mallory easy I'm taking Obi-Wan as hero I honestly can't believe he fell this far when you close your eyes when you think of Obi-Wan do you think of you and McGregor when I close my eyes in general I see you and McGregor so actually I see the animated Obi-Wan frankly with that square jawline is that the only time that that's ever happened like think about it has it happened?

1:09:27I don't think it happens yeah it depends on who you're talking to you would have chosen one

1:09:33Sean Fennessey:I have the high ground. I'm sorry. Don't try it. Guys. My nigga tried to flip anyway. He got his shit fucked up. Mustafar is iconic. Come on. I like it. It's not. He's not replaced that with Guinness. I actually do think that Ewan McGregor is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Yeah. At this point, I think that he is. But you guys both are in that part. That is like the dividing line. That's absolutely insane, but I know you guys are living a different life. At the end of the day. There's more of Ewan McGregor doing Obi-Wan. And again, genuinely with all of the animated installments. Is he voicing those? No, he's not.

1:10:04The fact that you could have such a passionate debate is Ewan McGregor. Your Obi-Wan is Alec. Your Obi-Wan is just more fodder for why it's a great pick. Like he's one of the most iconic and essential characters in Star Wars. Certainly undeniably one of the most important Jedi.

1:10:20Mallory Rubin:Did the abomination of the television show affect your appreciation for Ewan's performance? I thought that was the hottest he'd ever looked. Okay. Slicing space sushi in the sun. You know? bearded filthy wonderful stuff yeah Obi-Wan is one of the most important characters in Star Wars one of my personal favorites I have Obi-Wan's lightsaber I like to think about Obi-Wan's lightsaber in some other ways Jesus Christ one of the great Star Wars tragic romances in the wider canon you know I mean at some point Mallory that's just not functional that seems you know it depends on what you can take exactly I have to tell you spice it up at some point you can anymore, but that's fine.

1:11:01Do you know who the Duchess Satine is? Do you know who the Duchess Satine is?

1:11:05Sean Fennessey:More elegant than a blaster. That's what they say. Indeed. Yeah, there you go. Obi-Wan versus Grievous. Will someone take Grievous? Maybe. Obi-Wan is hero. Did you miss it? Did you miss it? I would like to request that the picture is Ewan McGregor. Why do you guys always get... Because remember when Mal dropped the blowjob situation years ago? I watched that clip all the time. All the time. I remember Amanda's reaction pretty vividly. Sharp and take a breath. I look at both of you. Amanda's reaction was amazing. I think you guys were both like, this is Mal, and Amanda was like, this is really a bummer.

1:11:48When I picked Snatch, I picked Snatch and was talking about basement blowjobs. Oh, right. Back in Reisterstown, Maryland. Some fond formative memories. Honestly.

1:11:58Sean Fennessey:So glad we're able to relive it again. Do you know what it was? It was just like. For the reason you say it again this time, you're just like. It was a recognizable sense memory thing. Like, I wasn't in that basement, but I was like, sure. Everybody that's watching right now, pause it, go back and listen to it. Freeze on a man's face. It's just basements I have seen, you know? Oh, shit. Oh, my God. I have a new hope in Obi-Wan. and I feel pretty good for the film. Okay. Kenobi, the greatest Jedi of all time to me, by the way. Glad we were able to circle back to being pleasured by a lightsaber.

1:12:32I have two picks.

1:12:33Sean Fennessey:You do. Mallory's basement. They should send the next film there. Will Mando be visiting your basement? That's where the hunt for Ben Solo ended. I was a Relo shipper. That's elegant timing. Unsurprising. Oh. Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I have two picks. And I'm going to tell you both of the people that I'm going to take. I know what you're doing. I'll be taking Leia Organa. Yeah. Good. And I'll also be taking Kylo Ren, a.k.a. Yeah. Nice. Good. Gamesmanship. I like it. Now, Leia, I obviously have had an amazing experience with Star Wars. Because if there is no Leia, my daughter's not getting into Star Wars.

1:13:12Sean Fennessey:She's not connecting with these movies. She's an incredibly strong entry point for them, for a lot of people, but especially for young women who are getting into the stories because she's one of the very few women with any agency in the movie. Wait till she meets Ahsoka. And I'm trying to figure out what's the right place to put her versus put Ben Solo. Because they're mother and son. They're both heroes. One of them is also a villain. And they're both Skywalkers. So I'm not sure if like just visually speaking, looking at the board, one makes more sense. I think Leia as my Skywalker makes the most sense.

1:13:46Sean Fennessey:I think that's correct. And Ben Solo as the hero or villain since he's both. He's, I might argue, one of the most interesting choices you could make in that category. You can pick the other one in Darth Vader. About Ben Solo. Kylo Ren is one of my favorite characters in movies in the last 20 years. I love him. I think he is an amazing creation. And such a perfect evocation of a certain kind of male psyche that was just very prevalent in the time when he was created. And it's really interesting to me when you can take like contemporaneous psychological profiles of men or women and put them into these crazy worlds.

1:14:21Sean Fennessey:Like genre storytelling. And that like frustrated emo sad boy. Why can't I be like why can't I why are my parents making me be this way? Why can't I get back to the time like my grandfather who was so cool? My parents don't want me to, you know, be successful. They won't let me have my own independence. like all of those very common touchable ideas putting them inside of a Star Wars villain and making him this kind of like snivelly person who also has amazing power and like looks cool but doesn't know how to hold the confidence was just like an amazing choice I've always loved Driver I think he's a great character so he'll be hero or villain

1:14:56Mallory Rubin:I was skipping through Last Jedi last night and the scene where Snoke is like take that ridiculous mask off is so devastating because it's just like oh you don't need this to breathe you're just being like this is just hot topic Darth Vader. And it's such a great insult to him. And then he fucking cuts him in half because of it.

1:15:16Sean Fennessey:He's still really powerful. He's still a very cool Star Wars character, but with all of that frailty right on the surface.

1:15:23Mallory Rubin:I had completely forgotten the dyad thing. Oh, dyad and a force. They're tied together. Oh, yeah. And he's shirtless for all of it with that just very square torso. That's a great moment when she's like, do you have anything you can put on? Yeah, the cowl, anything.

1:15:38Sean Fennessey:In The Last Jedi? In The Last Jedi? What? That idea of them being able to see each other across time and space. Force timing, as the kids call it. Force timing, yeah. Yeah, I like that. For people who are just listening, it should be noted that you just shrugged. I mean, I like the connection that they had. I think that that character of Ben Solo is kind of, in ways, indicative of the failures of the sequel trilogy. Wow. Yeah. Why? Because they didn't know what to do with them. Well, the ending is unforgivable for both of them. I think that's a Rise of Skywalker problem. That's a whole Rise of Skywalker problem.

1:16:06It is, but at the same time... His arc in Last Jedi is so great to me. I agree. To me, there's even inconsistencies with the power of the character. The movie starts with that character freezing a blaster bolt in midair. So you're thinking, oh my God, this is a nuke level Skywalker blooded fucking menace. One of the strongest we've ever seen. And then at the end of the movie, he gets fucked by like... He's like Finn is in a lightsaber battle with him. Like they never quite clearly tell you. Well, he's been shot. He's bleeding out. But he's also emotionally devastated by his choice to kill his own father.

1:16:43I get it. But like a lot of times when I look at the murkiness of those films, to me, the murkiness of those films can be laid at the feet of the murkiness of the villain that is right there in the films. And so look, there is a Rise of Skywalker problem, but the Rise of Skywalker is one of the movies that Kylo Ren is in.

1:17:01Sean Fennessey:I think it's fair to say there's some kind of inconsistencies about how powerful or not powerful certain characters are across all the movies. I just think that's the boldest choice to me, that character, across that sequel trilogy, is the power and the way that he's positioned. And having him be like,

1:17:20Mallory Rubin:let's get a Marlon Brando, James Dean style, agitated, method-y person to do this.

1:17:27Sean Fennessey:That's exactly what I was thinking. The performance style of the actor, which is very different from the kind of like elevated pop fantasy that came in all the other movies. Okay. Those are my three picks. Back to Mallory. Okay. Jeez. There are so many things I want to do here. This is really... I think Skywalker has gotten so thin that I'll wait, which I'm okay with. I usually in a draft wild card is like I think almost synonymous with save it till the end. but I think that there are to me two potential picks inside of wild card that are, could have been in the first round of this draft. I'm torn, which I want to do but I will be going with my wild card here.

1:18:12I'm going to go with my heart. I'm a little hard head on this. I'm taking lightsabers. I think in a Star Wars draft it's pretty important that lightsabers be selected.

1:18:20Mallory Rubin:You obviously have a personal attachment to the concept. You guys, you know how many lightsabers I own? A lot. Yeah, well now we have a cool. What do I use them for?

1:18:29Sean Fennessey:Get out of here now. Tough stuff. Just looked right at me when you said that. Because I know that he doesn't appreciate when I stare into his eyes when I say those things. He's moved around at all. I will be jealous of the person who gets the other thing I considered taking in wild card, but I'm so thrilled to have lightsabers and I think this is the right thing for me to do here. Lightsabers, genuinely one of the most iconic things in all of pop culture, all of the world. Good pick and a rare moment when an early wild card pick I think is very justified. Yes. I thought about weapons. I just didn't think there were enough weapons.

1:19:00That's part of why I really wanted to have lightsabers because Star Wars is very much about duels and battles and I don't think frankly like blasters are going to be selected or should be.

1:19:10Sean Fennessey:Now you could have been more specific. You could have said Luke's lightsaber. Yeah, but why? Now I get them all. I'm just saying. Now I get all of them. All of them. You could have said Mace Windu's lightsaber. That is one of the ones I own. You know, as a Ravens fan, purple saber, pretty cool. But no, I'm just getting every single one so I don't need to make the choice which is pretty wonderful and powerful okay Van Lathan I am going wild card 2 I'm taking the most iconic stuff that's still available to me and I'm taking The Force oh incredible pick I have that in my top 3 in wild card I'm taking I think Van is dominating I'm taking The Force okay like when I was a lad the thing that more intrigued me about Star Wars than anything else was this idea that there was this thing that binded the universe together and that accessing it would let you overcome any sort of evil that you were up against.

1:20:07And if Luke could do that, if he can get in tune with the Force, if he can listen to the Force, if he can operate by the will of the Force. He could turn his guidance system off. Exactly. And just shoot into and destroy the biggest, baddest thing that's ever existed. So the Force. And that more than anything has been the thing that as we move forward, we struggle with the most, which is how to deal with it and talk about it and make it make sense in a very cynical world. I think that's frankly the only reason that this, that's the only knock on the pick is that I think the Force has become a little bit of like a lightning rod inside of how fans talk about Star Wars and how Star Wars is made and does everything need to be about the, a lot of this is about the TV shows to be fair, but like, does everything need to be about the Force?

1:20:49Should these characters be able to use the Force? Obviously one of the big debates about, sorry to bring up Last Jedi again, was like Broom Boy, which I loved and thought was awesome and a great reminder of how big the galaxy is. But that's not how everybody feels about it.

1:21:02Sean Fennessey:I was going to ask what the debate was. So you don't want to know. When we did the Star Wars Rewatchables episode, I proffered a theory that the decline of organized religion, interest in organized religion in America dovetails neatly with the rise of Star Wars and Star Wars fandom.

1:21:18Mallory Rubin:You say it so evenly that it doesn't register how insane that moment was when you said that.

1:21:21Sean Fennessey:I feel very confident in being at least an interesting theory. But I honestly agree with more, like we could extrapolate. I think belief in Superman, like all of these things that are based in this sort of cultural purity, they go right along with the fact that we just don't believe in this version of mystical and mythical goodness anymore. So that was what I was going to ask you is, do you consider yourself a person who fears God? Yes. Okay. And you can hold that with the force. I can. And it was so funny back in the day when my grandmother, she tried to get me off the force. She joined a very popular type of Christianity.

1:21:59And she played this video where it was like, George Lucas actually believes in the force. And they think that the force is real. And she goes, so if you believe in the force and you watch Star Wars, you might go to hell. I was like, okay.

1:22:16Sean Fennessey:It's a teen mentality. I'll see you in hell. Okay. My turn. You're up, Dobbins. So there are a few things I could do here. And I'm not going big and grand and lightsaber and the force. I'm not doing my wild card. I think I'm going to have to play strategic. What happens if I break the draft? Oh, shit. You can break the draft. I might be breaking the draft. So we'll see how you guys are feeling. But problematic character. Sean explained to me yesterday and he was like just google it and it turns out when you google it you get a lot of men who are mad about the last Jedi writing about the Star Wars characters that they hate the most and so aside from Jar Jar obviously there are many cultural stereotypes embodied across the 11 films that people would have different issues with but I don't have like a specific recall of all of those sites so I'm doing a problematic character that jumped out to me yesterday while watching The Phantom Menace for the first time, which is Padme.

1:23:24Because that is an age gap romance. And I have some real issues with that. In addition, she is endangering her handmaidens with the switcheroo, including Sofia Coppola. So because of Padme, we might not get lost in translation. So get out of here, Padme. Why are you looking at me when you're young? I don't know.

1:23:43Sean Fennessey:This is a great thing. You haven't broken the game, technically. why would I have broken the game up? because she's going the number of skywalkers available I've got some things I can do when I think I picked it it doesn't help you well I had some questions and they weren't answered I think that's a flawed character also a flawed performance but whatever yes it's not her fault they're not giving anyone in that movie a lot to work with I think that's a George Lucas issue I think the performance in Attack of the Clones is even worse but yeah so they're five years apart yeah she is a she's 14 she's 9 so when they come back to the next movie he's 17 she's 22 listen you know that right now in 2026 people on the internet on Naboo yeah what is the age of consent I think he's older than 17 he's older than 17 is he older than 17 he's like 18 or 19 so he's 18 or 19 there's power imbalance there's power imbalance although he is the most powerful being in the universe well sure but institutionally speaking.

1:24:46Midichlorian Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. What a pick. I'll allow it. You shocked me with that one. Thank you. Thanks so much. You know.

1:24:55Sean Fennessey:It's a hell of a take. Yeah. Wow. Well, that leads us to CR, right? CR on the turn here. Two picks for you. CR, do you have a Skywalker?

1:25:04Mallory Rubin:Yeah, I got Luke. You got Luke. The Skywalker in some ways. Jack, can I request that you add an S to lightsaber to make a plural to really just reinforce that I have every lightsaber? Yeah, because somebody's going to be like, ah. Yeah. Paper copies over here. Wow, paper copies. Okay, so first of all, just inspired by you guys, I'm going to go wild card Death Star. Okay. Okay. Fantastic. That's a good one. I mean, it's a good one. Something that I think is now, like, obviously is crossover into, like, why? Why didn't you take it in a vehicle? It could have been eligible. I mean, I guess. I don't really think of it as a vehicle.

1:25:40Mallory Rubin:It's more of a weapon. It's a battle station. It's a concept. Sure. It's a useful reference. Have you guys ever noticed Mallory's draft? I'm just curious. Her draft tactics. She shits on your draft, but she tries to glamour the audience. Not ever noticed. We've been living like this for 10 years. I think everyone's doing great. Everyone's doing great. I was interested in the strategy. I think of it more as a weapon than a vehicle. Okay. And also often, you know, it's quite stationary. But, you know, like in any case. Okay. It has sort of provided a lot of my favorite moments throughout Star Wars, both in New Hope and Return of the Jedi and in Andor in some ways.

1:26:16Mallory Rubin:I was just watching the Krennic interrogation scene of Deirdre. The best. And I think it's one of the great inventions of this universe is this idea of especially presaging some of the Cold War stuff that was really about to hit off. But this idea of a super weapon, this idea of a doomsday, this idea of everything lights out. I think they may have gotten a little flippant with its use in the sequels or with the idea of the Starkiller base and what it does. But, you know, I'm happy about that. And now...

1:26:50Sean Fennessey:Is that the biggest flaw of The Force Awakens? That it's just note for note? That the Empire would be like, we're just going to do this again? Yes. Not that the movie is the same as the first film, but the idea of the Empire just trying to build another thing. Planet Killer? The third time they went with it. That is the same thing. Yeah. Like, why do they think this is the only way to dominate?

1:27:08Mallory Rubin:I mean, the weird thing is that they have two of the most powerful beings in the galaxy and they're like, we got to build a space station. Well, the Empire, the Emperor is also obsessed with it. If he would have listened to Thrawn and invested into the advance. In the Thai program. The Thai program. For sure. Probably would have been better, more versatile weapons. Bullshit would have been if they Oppenheimer'd it and the Republic was like, we have to build a space station so that this can never happen again. And then it just becomes nuclear, you know. But it's the folly of the Empire.

1:27:35Sean Fennessey:That would be Oppenheimer-ing it.

1:27:36Mallory Rubin:Well, if you were like, we have to show them, you know, we have to beat the Germans just google Grand Admiral Thrawn Thrawn is the best which movie is he in? no movies books and TV shows well I can't be responsible for that he's an awesome villain

1:27:50Sean Fennessey:he's great good pick Chris you have another pick

1:27:55Mallory Rubin:for movie you're cursed with I'm giving Amanda

1:28:01Mallory Rubin:I'm giving her Phantom Menace

1:28:04Sean Fennessey:that is absolutely the right move so how do we mark so how's this mark Yeah, he's fine. I mean, honestly, it's quite poor.

1:28:12Mallory Rubin:Clones might be worse, I think. I haven't seen clones. I like clones more. And that's the one I haven't seen. And then I think philosophically and creatively, Rise of Skywalker is more bankrupt. Yes, totally. Rise of Skywalker is the evil movie, and Phantom Menace is the bad movie. Yes.

1:28:30Sean Fennessey:And this is just kind of boring at times. Attack of the Clones, I will cape for just because it just has some fun action. I think Attack of the Clones is a better story than Phantom Menace with easily the worst dialogue and performances in the entire franchise. I agree.

1:28:45Mallory Rubin:Yeah, it's hard because I know pod racing and Duel of the Fates, people will be like, but you have that. Duel of the Fates are worse. And I don't. Is Mace in Attack of the Clones? Mace is in all the regals. But he gets killed in Attack of the Clones, right? No, that's it. Revenge of the Sith. Revenge of the Sith. Unlimited power! that's when Alice says do the emperor that's of course what I said okay so those are my okay thank you so much for that what a gift where did you think someone would first choose to curse someone was this about about the spot midway

1:29:15Sean Fennessey:when it got to Chris I started thinking about who I would curse with what so it seems like about that time right because you don't want it to be nasty up front there's so much we love about Star Wars but now we've cleared the deck on a lot of old favorites and we'll think about how we can also wound our our competitors This episode is brought to you by Apple and AT &T. Scroll long enough and you'll hear it all. Miracle diets, fitness trends, you name it. But with iPhone and Apple Watch, you get meaningful insights from a very trusted source, your body. You can track sleep quality, cardio fitness, and more, then unpack all the information in the health app on iPhone to get a picture of your overall health.

1:29:52These health insights are developed with clinical experts from start to finish. Find out more at apple.com slash health. Apple Watch is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice. I guess I could curse someone, but the wild card of it all. Now I really, I am.

1:30:11Sean Fennessey:Did you have a long list of wild card potentials? I had more than one, but I'm going to take John Williams. There we go. That's what I thought. Love it. Which is just like an absolute no brainer. Love it. I mean, these movies don't exist without lightsabers of the force, but they also do not exist without that score, which is like, honestly, probably the greatest, certainly classical music of our lifetime. But he's one of one. It will live on. If you have not seen John Williams performing or like conducting symphony orchestras, performing his work, there's a whole series that he did in Vienna, which we just like watch in my house and my children love it.

1:30:49And then like I, you know, the music itself can bring me to tears, honestly, more than the movies can. He's good. That's why I started crying talking about Binders and Sunsets earlier. it's just it's an insane accomplishment that totally changes the way that we understand like popular music from the last 50 years you really wonder

1:31:09Mallory Rubin:what would happen if it was another if it missed yeah or if somebody else was doing it yeah if he wasn't just the fucking man of our lives I think it's the single the this one one of my favorite podcasts that I've ever done and been a part of was the the sounds of Star Wars binge mode episode during the Star Wars runs where we talked about the score but also just in general the soundscape of Star Wars and I think there's no greater shorthand to that emotional connection than like when you hear the force theme kick in or you hear a lightsaber fire up it's just the sounds of star wars take you to that place right away just hearing yeah the beeps and boops no droid category i think is uh very devastating here by the way but of course they could be selected in certain categories john williams score was what i was alluding to earlier when i said i was really torn between two things in a top wild card the force was was up there as well but yeah i think this is a great pick what an absolute legend okay I have to take a Skywalker now I've waited long enough why at this point the category is so thin the category is thin now if I fucking wait then I'm going to get left with fucking Shimi Skywalker I've got some things I can do I feel fine I'm going to take Rey a character you don't like a character you don't like you You sat there in a fucking coliseum in Caesar's Palace.

1:32:29And you're like, Rey is not a Skywalker. That I did say. You said it over and over again. Because there's a debate. That I did say. She just said she's a Skywalker.

1:32:36Mallory Rubin:She's won. Wait, so you're saying not eligible.

1:32:39Sean Fennessey:And I'm saying she is eligible. That I was wrong when I said that to Amanda. But you never corrected that. So I'll apologize to Amanda for not correcting that. She's fucking late. You already threw a tantrum about me recalling the conversation. There's only one person throwing tantrums on this podcast, and we all know who it is, Amanda. Yeah, it's a very thin category, but if this is the last mid-rounder that you can get, after this, there's none left. I don't know what you guys do, so I'm going to take Rey. Interesting, I like her. We're going to see her. This is shameful, what you're doing right now.

1:33:13Many people are saying, because it's not credible. You don't like her, and you don't like the movie she's in. We're going to see more of her. Okay. I like her. I think she means a lot. By the way, can I say something? Can I say something? A lot of young lady.

1:33:27Mallory Rubin:You are talking about her the way Trump talked about Tim Cook yesterday. He never bothered me. And I will say that. I think for a lot of young lady Skywalker, like Star Wars fans, that she represents a lot to them. She's cool. I like Rey. He does. I like Rey. I'm taking Rey. That's my Skywalker right there. Okay. I don't know who else is on the board that could even be like that. I thought you were going to say Rey was your problematic character.

1:33:53Sean Fennessey:That's where I thought you were going. Why? Because she's not really fleshed out. And what they do with her in Rise of Skywalker is unforgivable, but I don't think it's Rey's fault. I think just even the explanation of her lineage is so janky. I mean, I agree. You know, and it's like she's the daughter of a failed Palpatine clone. A Strandcast, yeah. You know, it's just a very odd retcon. like such a that's the best they could do with that idea in the same way that you're putting like all the failures of you're separating the failures of Rise of Skywalker from Ben Solo from Kylo Ren I'm separating it from Rey right when the moment when she gets the lightsaber in Force of Reykjanes we already I already said lost the television it's back um fear it up I good pick I think I'll apologize to you again thank you for not letting you know that I had changed my mind about that only because I didn't think there were enough Skywalker characters that would be eligible to make the game continue.

1:34:50Sean Fennessey:Fortunately for Mallory I do still have to select a Skywalker. You do. I will not be doing it now. Now that Rey is off the board I'll be waiting probably until the last round. Seems wise. There are some things I can do there. Let's see. Some exciting possibilities here. I will take I think the clear number one draft pick and problematic character. I'll take Jar Jar.

1:35:10Mallory Rubin:Wise. Because you think he's the most problematic or you just love him so much? All of the no no no sorry I think problematic, but also I think clearly the poster character for that idea inside of the franchise. And, you know, are there some fun little Jar Jar moments in the animated canon that have wormed me to him over time? You know, are there a lot of fun Jar Jar theories? Love what they've done with Jar Jar in the little Lego shorts. I mean, Jar Jar is not only does he go in the Senate, let's be clear. Jar Jar is responsible for the emperor. Remember? Remember, he's like gaslit and manipulated into presenting the motion that allows Darth Sidious to become the emperor.

1:35:55So in addition to all of the other, you know, the tropes and the racist caricatures and just the really bad dialogue and storytelling in Phantom Menace, Jar Jar is also responsible for fascism and tyranny reigning across the galactic empire for decades on end. And so I don't see how Jar Jar couldn't be the top pick in this category. Happy to have him on the squad. I will not be doing an impression. Definitely number one.

1:36:24Mallory Rubin:There's also like three or four other super kind of racist characters in those prequels. You can certainly select them. What are you thinking about? But thank you for saying clearly the number one. I appreciate it. There's six categories or five? Seven.

1:36:34Sean Fennessey:Seven. What the fuck am I doing? I'm trying to see what else is on the board. Okay. I have two picks. You need both movies. Vansel is picking a movie. Yeah, Van, you haven't picked a movie yet. Yes. Which is challenging because you're about to receive a movie in another category. Go for it. Because of the strength of Van Slate, I am cursing him with The Rise of Sons. Skywalker. Okay, good. Oh, wow. Okay. Which to me is just desserts for The Last Jedi haters. Yeah. That movie exists because of The Last Jedi haters. It exists because Disney forced J.J. Abrams to make that movie too fast with a script that was not ready and that they forced all these ideas into the frame and then they fucked up Star Wars movies for seven years.

1:37:15Sean Fennessey:That is a fact. The movie, I think we can all agree, is ultimately a failure. Of course.

1:37:21Mallory Rubin:And was Trevor Rose supposed to direct that? He was. He was going to do a whole duel of the face type of deal. But then they were like, Ryan's going to direct it. And then they were like, actually, JJ's going to direct it. They botched it.

1:37:34Sean Fennessey:I'm only giving it to you because your board is really good. And I'm kind of annoyed with how good you've been doing. I was thinking about giving it to you also because you don't like Last Jedi. Rise of Skywalker happened because of this. So I'm not blaming you personally. Yeah, because I didn't do it. Yeah, you didn't do it. But it's not good. Can I ask a process question in terms of how this will be presented? Because you're like, I did this here because I want to hurt Van because his squad is so good. But it's listed on your team. So when people very quickly are looking at this on Instagram to vote.

1:38:06Mallory Rubin:It will be corrected. So whatever movie you're cursed with. That will be placed under our individual head. Exactly. I'm just leaving this up for order purposes right now. That was going to be my recommendation. I can make a true argument that if you're cursed with that movie. You've lost. That your entire board. I think it's a great. I mean, yeah. Rise of Skywalker is a scandal. Genuinely a scandal.

1:38:26Sean Fennessey:It is a scandal. I think actually when we came out of the movie, we were like a little gobsmacked. We were like, what just happened? We stood still on the sidewalk for 45 minutes, unable to move. Yeah, that was tough. Yeah. That was tough. It's too bad. Anyway, I got to pick something else. Yeah. So I've got... You've done your movies. So I need a vehicle, a problematic character, and a wild card, huh? Yeah.

1:38:54Sean Fennessey:I think I'll tell you what I think is the coolest vehicle after the Millennium Falcon I'm going to take it right now it's called the TIE Advanced X1 it's Darth Vader's TIE Fighter it is good you're going very specific which I think is super fucking cool and you know what he does get blown out of the frame by Han Solo in A New Hope and he goes what I can't deny it but even still it's just something I enjoy I enjoy him like getting behind the wheel there just real Top Gun Maverick vibes where it's like, fine, I'll do it myself, you know? And I just think that's a really cool vehicle. So that's my pick.

1:39:26Sean Fennessey:You could have gone any number of directions. You could have gone broad with a certain style of vehicle. But if I had to choose one to jump into, if I wasn't piloting the Millennium Falcon, it would be this one. Okay. That's good. Now you're up. Okay. I didn't necessarily think I was going to do this here, but I'm mostly, I'm going to curse someone with Attack of the Clones because I don't want to be cursed with Attack of the Clones. And I actually would be like genuinely fine with any of the other movies that someone sent my way because this will take, I think, clearly the bottom three, Phantom Menace, Rise of Skywalker and Attack of the Clones off the board means I can't receive one of the worst three movies.

1:40:07So I think strategically it's sound for me to just avoid being able to receive this. Who do I want to give it to? So Amanda has been cursed with the movie. Yeah, so Sean and Chris are your options. I got her. Oh, geez. Sheesh. Okay.

1:40:20Mallory Rubin:This is like an anxiety dream. Life comes at you fast. Yeah. Okay, so let's see. Chris has Luke Rogue One, the Death Star, and has given Phantom Menace. Sean has Empire Leia, Ben. I do, and the TIE Fighter. I do think I have to curse Sean with this. Yes, Steph. You got to counterbalance having Empire, clearly the best movie, I think. So Sean will be receiving Attack of the Clones, which I think is the... As I said, I just thought I'd like... What happened to that? Nothing. Okay. I mean... Anakin slices up a pear and sends it to Padme in midair. You remember that? There's like an espionage

1:40:51Sean Fennessey:chase through.

1:40:53Mallory Rubin:Is that where Dooku comes in?

1:40:55Sean Fennessey:Yeah, Dooku enters the frame. General Greed is enters the frame. Detective Obi-Wan. People don't like it now, but in the movie theater when Obi-Wan, when Yoda was getting busy with his lightsaber, people were going crazy. Yeah, that was sick. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's not, it's by no means great. The performances and dialogue in that movie are appalling. Every scene between Anakin and Padme in that movie is appalling. Could have been worse. How many times have you said to someone in your life, hold me like you did by the lake in Naboo? Is that something you guys say to people? Yeah, all the time.

1:41:22Sean Fennessey:No? Yeah. That's what you say to your lightsaber? Quite right. Quite right. Okay. Is it a man? No, it's a man. So I got to take a movie now. You don't have to. Yeah, I'm going to. Now, this is tough for me because in my heart, there's a movie. that I want to take, but I can't justify taking it above the other two films that are still there. So I'm going to take, which I think is now become an underrated movie, Return of the Jedi. I believe so. I believe you're right. Yeah. I think it's now become an underrated movie. I think Return of the Jedi coming after Empire Strikes Back was a movie that it was easy to criticize because the Empire is so brilliant.

1:42:13Jedi is a fantastic film it completes the flawless arc of Luke Skywalker you have Sarlacc Pit you have all kinds of different things in that movie that are super duper iconic you know people who are here or miss on the Ewoks I love them I like watching the Ewoks I liked Indor I liked the force race I liked a lot of the stuff Admiral Ackbar all of that stuff in Jedi to me works and if I got a draft here I'm going to get one of the original trilogy.

1:42:45Sean Fennessey:I think this is kind of a no-brainer, right? Yeah. I don't agree. Oh, interesting. Well, you're a Sith girl. I'm shocked, and I feel personally betrayed that you didn't take Sith here. I was astonished and really sad. Can I be real with you? What happened? If it was about my heart, that's the movie that I'm taking. Follow your heart at Star Wars. What is literally, what is more about following your heart? You can't compare it to Return of the Jedi. Return of the Jedi is 40 minutes of Jabba the Hutt and Boba Fett going down sad into the Sarlacc pit like a fucking cup. All that stuff is awesome.

1:43:20And then 90 minutes of the E-box. You're glamour in the audience. Okay. It's Jedi. I honestly would have, not only would I have taken Sith before that easily, I would have taken Force Awakens before that. I'm surprised. You didn't. I'm surprised. You took a new hope in the second pick in the draft. I don't get it. I can't believe you didn't take Sith. I just can't believe it. All right. Jedi.

1:43:38Sean Fennessey:I think that was the correct pick. And actually, your strategy is waiting on movie paid off. You got one of the OG trilogies still all the way down there. I don't know. I mean, I think you did good. Amanda. Yes. Okay. So, going along with... No, I looked at the exact name. But in Return of the Jedi, yes. Okay. So, it's a speeder bike, and I believe the correct model is the 74Z speeder bike. This is my son's favorite. part of Return of the Jedi. This is such a fucking dangerous vehicle. And they look, it looks very cool. Although I guess you don't always have to ride it in such a heavily wooded area.

1:44:16I can pick all speeders, I don't have to be specific. Okay, I pick speeder bikes. You know what? The speeder bike, the fact that Leia was on that bitch going crazy is the first time I was like, she's probably force sensitive.

1:44:28Sean Fennessey:I thought you were going to say women should be allowed to drive.

1:44:36okay so that's my vehicle speeder bikes nice speeders are fun

1:44:41Sean Fennessey:what is the vehicle called that Anakin and Obi-Wan race in at the beginning of clones that like the car the hover car oh I don't know the hover car yeah I see what you mean I'm not sure you guys don't know neither of you know well then it must be really obscure I mean there's an iconic Star Wars vehicle that's still on the board a couple I would say I agree Yeah.

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1:46:47Sean Fennessey:Okay, now it is Chris's turn, right? Uh... Chris, what are you missing now, bud?

1:46:54Mallory Rubin:Hero. Hero vehicle and problematic. I'm going to go... God, I don't want to be redundant. I'm going to go Cassian and Or for hero, even though I already have Rogue One. But you mean Cassian Rogue One because Andor is not. Yeah, I know that he sort of plays the wall a little bit. The djinn is the hero of Rogue One. I know that too. Djinn's dad is the architect of our demise. so you know I think that also the architect of us being able to defeat the Death Star it's true it's the plans that he leaves behind but what's his name Galen or so yeah probably Stardust yeah Cassian for hero because like I don't have a deep attachment to Jyn and I don't have a deep attachment to any of the remaining people really like Poe or whatever what do you think of that a couple more

1:47:47Sean Fennessey:interesting heroes out there I'm surprised by some of the characters who have not been selected in hero I will I will say that. Has everybody taken their hero and villain? No, I haven't. So I won't. I'm afraid from speaking further. And of course, I can name all of them. This has been nicely distributed

1:48:04Mallory Rubin:amongst the three trilogies, I'll say. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of avoiding the prequels to some extent, but. So you're a little worried you're too Rogue One heavy and not spread out across the board enough. I mean, I don't really care. But yeah, I just really like Cassian. And even like his introduction is so dope in that movie. For Vehicle. Sorry, my scroll. are not stapled.

1:48:27Mallory Rubin:Oh, you know what? I'll do problematic character. Jabba. Good one. Human trafficker. Yeah.

1:48:35Sean Fennessey:Yeah. What do you think about the idea that he's also an Italian stereotype?

1:48:39Mallory Rubin:I hadn't thought about that. That never occurred to me.

1:48:42Sean Fennessey:His last name ends in a vowel. Ah, that's tough. He's supposed to be a big, fat mobster. He's a gangster. He's a gangster. He's supposed to be a big, fat mobster. yeah it's tough that is the idea of the character that represents a whole secret society basically I think Jabba is like when it's just like he's like a

1:49:00Mallory Rubin:you know he's a bookie you're like alright Jabba but then when he's got slave Leia by the chain like that's like a little problem that's tough but how often did you jerk off to that when you were younger be honest what was it that he was getting out of that

1:49:13Sean Fennessey:out of what Leia chained up he was licking her remember he licked her with the tongue was that the primary it was all about the titillation I think it was like the implication his lightsaber if you know what I mean the implication is that she is his concubine but how would that have played out ask her do you mean how does a hut have sexual intercourse I'm not going to use those words where are pleasure centers yeah I don't know where's the hut phallus that's what I'm saying

1:49:42Mallory Rubin:because they're baby huts that's right

1:49:45Sean Fennessey:maybe for him it's more about

1:49:47Mallory Rubin:it's like romanticcy It's like he's like a human being is like a winged fairy to him. That's right. You know? Yeah. You're right. Loves to read. Jabba. Big lick guy.

1:49:58Sean Fennessey:So Jabba is your problematic character. Okay. I was going to. Yeah.

1:50:02Mallory Rubin:That's my problematic. Okay.

1:50:04Sean Fennessey:We're back to Amanda. So I have hero or villain and I can curse someone. And I don't really feel that strongly about any of the remaining movies to curse people with. and also my options are Mal, who would be excited to get the third movie, Sith something, can't remember the full title. It's tough. And I don't want to curse Chris because I already took Han Solo away from him. So I might just let that shake out and instead take hero or villain. Well, some major characters still on the board. Okay. Does Yoda count as a hero? Yes. That's who I pick. Yes. I pick Yoda.

1:50:48Mallory Rubin:I always kind of thought Yoda was kind of boring. You could have also picked Yoda as a villain. No, I just meant that's why I didn't pick him. Let Palpy rise. I'm not really a Yoda guy either. Okay.

1:50:58Sean Fennessey:Nothing against him. He seems wise. Even, you know, even if you have all the wisdom in the world, you can't always do the right thing in Star Wars. That's what we learned. That's the complication of Star Wars. You can't always sense the Sith rising. And he trains some important people. And also my sons really like him. So at this point, I'm just drafting for the boys.

1:51:19Mallory Rubin:If baby Yoda had been in the mix here. Right. But, you know, as we have learned, thanks to Mallory and Joanna, they're not. No, but we have learned that they are the same species, which is something that I have now heroically explained to a four-year-old.

1:51:32Sean Fennessey:Can you name another member of that species? No, but there's one more. Because we talked about it.

1:51:37Mallory Rubin:It's three people count as a species now? Well, there's more than that. We only know about three. We don't know very much about them. And we know that Yoda, they live to be at least 900 years old. They're old. Inherently force sensitive as a race. Right. And we only know about three of them. I can't name the third person. Yaddle. He's a huge Joe Burrow. Yaddle is her name. She's a woman. We've forgotten again. Is Yoda getting by on his sentence construction? Like, does Yoda actually have that much to offer? But he just puts it in such a unique way. Yoda is sitting in front of Yoda's feet. Yoda and Mace they're both like shoulder shrugges.

1:52:23Sean Fennessey:For the fall of the Republic. Straight up. I got some notes for Yoda. The greatest teacher of failure is Hasn't the Republic fallen three times? Yes but this was He missed the rise of Palpatine. Darth Sidious is in meetings with him regularly on his Google Cal and he's like, I feel none of this.

1:52:47Mallory Rubin:Very tough. And then he peaced out to Dagobah. Embarrassing. Bit of a flaw in this. Govern you must. Embarrassing. And then, perhaps honestly, worst of all, when he's training Luke on Dagobah, he's like, don't go save your friends. That is some dark, gnarly shit. And Luke doesn't listen because it's in his nature to go save his friends. Part of why Luke is great. Part of why the echo in The Last Jedi is so good is because he's committing the same sin as Yoda. He doesn't listen to Yoda. He goes to save his friends. He goes to save his friends. And then he does nothing.

1:53:17Sean Fennessey:When you're young, you're idealistic. You're willing to take chances. That's the whole premise of the movies. Got it. Okay. I'm going to take problematic character. And I'm inspired by CR's pick of Jabba the Hutt. Okay. So in my problematic character, I'm going to take Emperor Sheep Palpatine. Yeah. Okay. and because I didn't when we were talking problematic which one is that? he's the greatest villain in film history they just keep up in the ante like so is Galactus you know?

1:53:55Sean Fennessey:they didn't really follow through on that in Fantastic Four there's like a pre-emperor and then there's an emperor and then well he's a senator

1:54:03Mallory Rubin:then he's an emperor he's the chancellor senator, chancellor, emperor but it's all the same dude and then somehow But he's always Darth City. So he's like the... So he's clear villain, but let me make my case for specifically problematic. Number one, a big time groomer. Grooms a young Anakin Skywalker from the point that he is legitimately an elementary school kid. Grooms and lies to Darth Maul, making him think that he was a Sith. When guess what? He really wasn't. Super mean to Darth Vader, which they don't really get into. Has Darth Vader, makes Darth Vader, like, has him in a weird relationship where he has to rely on him and he, like, makes him turn against his own family, the whole thing.

1:54:47Then so problematic, so addicted to power that he can't allow anybody else to have power. He has to have it eternally. So he puts himself in a cloning situation, his consciousness is something else, uses a Sith cult to bring himself back at the end because he can't get rid of it. He's not just a villain, but he's also a bad person. He's like, he's a boomer bad boss. Exactly. is your argument. Yeah. He won't get out of the way and he doesn't respect

1:55:11Sean Fennessey:more plays batteries. He's in a three-story house. Yeah, I almost had that joke earlier. I'm glad you got that one off. Not the first to make that joke. Yoda, you could make an argument for Yoda, too. No question. I was actually thinking about him in this category as well. Yeah, same. So I like that pick. Even though he's not historically amongst the culturally insensitive, although you could say he's culturally... No, no, no, he's racist. But what is... No, no, no, he's... No, he's also racist. Who is? Yoda or Dalmatine? Okay. Palpatine does not allow non-humans to be in the Empire. He is a racist against aliens.

1:55:46The only one that is in the Empire is Thrawn, and he makes a special case for Thrawn. Thrawn is like the Jackie Robinson of the Empire. He makes a special case for Thrawn because Thrawn is so brilliant. The whole Thrawn story is fucking amazing how Thrawn got— But there are no aliens that are allowed to be in the Empire. He's a human supremacist.

1:56:05Sean Fennessey:He's going to integrate the Empire after Thrawn. Because maybe Thrawn didn't, you know, become NL MVP. But what I'm saying. Yeah, he couldn't get on base. Yeah, Sidious is also, he's like notoriously a racist. Solid pick. Ian McDiarmid.

1:56:21Mallory Rubin:The longest serving.

1:56:23Sean Fennessey:One of the more extraordinary 35-year performances in movie history. Good. He's the best. 50-year. I mean, how many? He was in movies for 50s and 20s. It's great. How old was he when he first portrayed the Emperor? I think he was like in his 40s, early 40s or 30s or something. He looked a lot older than what he actually was. Because when he came back in the prequels, I was like, hey. I absolutely love him in the prequels. I think his over-the-top portrayal of that guy is some of the most fun shit in those movies. The Jedi are trying to take over. Okay. Who's next? Mallory. I am. I will be happily selecting my vehicle now.

1:56:57I will be taking the X-Wing, which is somehow still here despite being one of the most iconic ships in Star Wars. So not Luke's X-Wing. If we were picking specific vehicles and we had to, I would pick the T-65B, a.k.a. Red 5, Luke Skywalker's X-Wing.

1:57:09Sean Fennessey:You're just taking them all. I'm taking them all. Why not? I would like you to use a picture of Luke's X-Wing, Jack, if at all possible. That would be great, but I'm taking them all.

1:57:18Mallory Rubin:People are like, I'm having a hard time visualizing. Taking them all. The X-Wing is iconic. Every time it opens and closes, fantastic. You got your astromech with you for the ride, the best. No one has taken a droid. hate on Mando and Grogu or Mando the show the first season of that at the end when that X-Wing is crawling up it's incredible I stood up and went that's fucking Skywalker it's the best and it was nuts that's how iconic the vehicle is you know that that's

1:57:46Sean Fennessey:what Luke is riding around in story of popular culture in the last six years that was the shit that we were like this matters a TV show or sitting alone in our apartment during COVID it's not ideal got our action figures at home great stuff okay who's next you you're on the turn man you got two you have to no you've cursed Van right so you have you have problematic

1:58:09Mallory Rubin:character and wild card

1:58:13Mallory Rubin:Um,

1:58:16Sean Fennessey:gosh. Problematic character. I think I'll take Newt Gunray as my representative from the Trade Federation, which is a character who was portrayed in a movie in 1999. That is one of the most blatant anti-Asian stereotypes I've ever seen in the history of cinema. Right. and also blockades back in the news. Yeah. You know? And their strategy which was shameful and they were obviously pawns of the emperor didn't work out. I'm hopeful that everything works out in our world. I can't say for sure if that's going to happen.

1:58:58Mallory Rubin:We've only been potting for a couple hours. We could add a couple of different flips in the story. You think that's possible? I feel like every day brings something new, man.

1:59:04Sean Fennessey:Does Hegseth have you on speed dial?

1:59:06Mallory Rubin:Me and Pete have not spoken. Okay. Ever. You're sure? He looks like a Phillies fan. He sure does. He looks like a Chipper Jones fan. He does look like a Chipper Jones fan. Fucked me up with that one. These are facts. Tough.

1:59:18Sean Fennessey:I like Chipper. Wild card, I'm going Boba Fett. Now, I cannot believe he lasted this long. Boba Fett, I think the TV shows have undermined his legacy somewhat. I would argue even the prequels have undermined his legacy somewhat. There's the famous Patton Oswalt bit where he explains, you know, you love Boba Fett, one of the coolest characters in Star Wars. And George Lucas is like, yeah, when we see him in the prequels, he's a kid like you're like what which is an amazing Patton Oswalt riff but to your point about Return of the Jedi Boba Fett and Return of the Jedi that was the coolest movie character of all time when you were seven that was am I crazy like he's awesome who is this and what is their deal

2:00:01Mallory Rubin:I do think that there is a degree to which he he like the Sarlacc pit he gets embarrassed that happens real early but we know he survives Now we know. Now he survives. He's nothing. Yeah. But I love him. I love Boba Fett. It was one of the, it was also kind of like the mystery. They were, as much as they gave you in Star Wars, there were still mysterious characters. oh, they're bounty hunters. Like, bounty hunters. What do they do?

2:00:22Sean Fennessey:And what if I said he was really like an exploration of male frailty, you know, and just the idea of, you know, unable to really express yourself hiding behind the mask, you know, using tools to make yourself seem more powerful. He is but a man. Is he not? True. He is but a man. The son, the clone son of his clone of Yisa. That's exactly right, which I didn't know when I was seven. And I'm not sure I liked it. Here's my son, Boba, who was just a clone, an unaltered clone of me. Very normal. Let's say they cloned you. I think that would be unwise for everyone because don't the clones get itchy?

2:01:00Aren't they even meaner versions? It's like a Waymo. So no one needs that, right?

2:01:05Sean Fennessey:Yeah, there's an aggression. No one needs like, you know, other Mommy Amanda. But like, it already exists. But imagine it like at the next level. But would you say this is my son or my daughter? If it was a pure clone of you? No. You wouldn't say that? No, I would try to nuke it. You know, there could only be one me. Yeah, it's immediately a threat to me. Wow.

2:01:28Mallory Rubin:That's some crazy like Ellen Ripley shit. True. You know what? The other day, this is not specifically about clones, but it is about autonomous fleets of things. I was standing not in a crosswalk, but was trying to cross Hollywood Boulevard by my house and a Waymo was coming. And the Waymo sensed me. Yeah, it stopped. And it stopped. And I was like, one day it won't stop. One day the software update will be like, for maximum efficiency, we have to keep going. And I'm like, that's when it gets real.

2:02:02Sean Fennessey:But the question is, you were not using a crosswalk. So who would be in the wrong in that circumstance?

2:02:09Mallory Rubin:But one day, the Waymo is going to be like, I didn't see him. Well, the Waymo won't say anything. He's not a he. Then there'll be a whole fucking cultural debate about whether or not the Waymo was right or whether or not you were right. Do Waymo's have feelings?

2:02:23Sean Fennessey:You got to consider the Waymo's trauma in the aftermath of murdering you in the street. How are they going to go on Waymoing all around the city?

2:02:30Mallory Rubin:The Waymo ended CR month.

2:02:33Sean Fennessey:wow that's a horror movie uh well it's time for me in the last round of a draft about the Skywalker saga to select my Skywalker family member and I think it's fitting that we're talking about machines because I will be selecting Anakin's chosen son the son he built by hand C-3PO not R2 and R2 I'm about to expand my case No wait Mallory

2:03:00Mallory Rubin:You can't keep putting Plurals To just take All lightsabers And all By the rules Of the draft It's up to Sean could have said You have to I think the people

2:03:09Sean Fennessey:Who are listening At home to the show Will see this as a lame You can't just be like Droids No no no I didn't say droids Anakin built I will limit it To C-3PO If But I think That's eligible Because you could be like I draft the Republic You could do that You know Okay You could Van drafted the Force In Wilds He drafted lightsabers Exactly Exactly. And this has been allowed the whole time. Listen, Anakin built C-3PO. He built him. So I think at a minimum for sure, 3PO is an eligible pick. He's Anakin's son. He built him with his hands. Now I think he then adopted R2 as his adopted son. That's the interpretation of the creator-creation relationship that we're accepting here?

2:03:49Rey was allowed to be selected. She says out loud, I'm a Skywalker, right? And that was deemed eligible. Basically like it's my adopted family. She has the last name. Yeah. C-3PO's name is not C-3PO's skywalker. I don't accept this.

2:04:03Sean Fennessey:I just don't think this is valid. There's no one who feels this. Yes, Anakin built C-3PO's name. Well, that makes him God. This is not a Christian society. Don't you guys build the lightsabers? Yeah, they do. Absolutely. The Kyber crystal calls to them. Why couldn't you just say the lightsaber is a skywalker? They hear a song? Because he crafted him to be a member of his family. But they're not family members.

2:04:23Mallory Rubin:They're droids. Oh, well, this is a little bit of like... A little racial. Okay, so it's every single... That's not saying a pet is not a member of your family. It's every single ship. It's a little racial. A son of the... No, no, because it's about the nature of the relationship. Do you think that he treats them like family? He treats them like a brother, a son. Fuck no. He treats them like shit. No, no, no. Not R2. R2 and Anakin, that's a tight bond. R2 and Anakin is a tight bond. That is also not who you drafted. I'm trying to draft both of them. M3PO and R2 together as adopted members of the Skywalker family.

2:04:58Why did you start with C3PO? Because he built him by hand. And he did build R2 by hand? No, R2 came to him via Padme. I could argue that...

2:05:06Mallory Rubin:That's just like, he got a gift. That's like, Padme is like, here's a robot. It's a story about found family. I don't think you would allow any of us to have tried this earlier.

2:05:17Sean Fennessey:No, the answer is no. So why don't you try

2:05:19Mallory Rubin:and pick up the other Skywalker that you knew you were going to have to draft. I've got one more thing to attempt here. I'm not done yet. Okay, let's see. Let's delete 3PO from the screen that we're all looking at. Listen, I believe that 3PO and R2 should have been eligible. I actually think it's a shame to get through the draft without any droids on the board.

2:05:37Sean Fennessey:You could have asked me beforehand if they were, and I would have told you no. But you told Amanda that Rey wasn't eligible, and that Rey was eligible. Amanda and I have a long partnership that's full of lies. This is a very different circumstance. That's how it survives. I think that I should have been allowed to make the pick. However, okay. But let me say something that is irrefutable, which is that...

2:05:56Mallory Rubin:This is gamesmanship. She started with something she knew was going to get rejected so that we accepted this thing. We'll see. No, no, no. We'll see. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm not afraid. Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians. They are his father. That is canon. Absolutely not. That is canon. That's like saying, no. I'm having so much fun right now. I'm back in college. That is canon. It's like, you guys are okay. That's a violation of canon if you say that that can't be a thing.

2:06:25Sean Fennessey:Midichlorians are also an inanimate object. They are not a corporeal form on the earth. They're a family member. Family member. Why is an inanimate object? You guys said the midichlorians are alive. No, no, midichlorians are alive. What are you talking about? They are alive. They're alive. Definitely. What are they? What are they? They're like, they're little things that exist in symbiotic ways. Anakin has the highest midichlorian count and he was conceived into their atoms. Wygon Jin says conceived by the midichlorians. That is canon.

2:06:53Mallory Rubin:Does he not have parents? According to who? Shmi and the midichlorians.

2:06:57Sean Fennessey:Now, I could also argue that it's actually... Who are the parents of midichlorians? What are their names? Why does that matter? Well, explain how they're part of a family. Why are they hiding? Joe and Jean midichlorians. Why won't they come forward? You know what would have been interesting? It would be interesting if you chose Palpatine because some people say that it was actually Palpatine that influenced the midichlorians to actually create. But he used the midichlorians. Can you just draft Shitty Skywalker? That's insane. You misplayed the game. No, no, no. I'm fine with Shmi. That's fine.

2:07:29I told you yesterday I'd be fine with Shmi. I don't understand genuinely why the midichlorians are not eligible.

2:07:34Sean Fennessey:Midichlorians are not a person. This is family member. This is meant to be a person. Midichlorians are alive. Why? I don't understand. They may not be alive, but they are not a person. Have we ever seen a midichlorian? It says family member. Right, that's not a family member. That's not a family member. Of course, Anakin's father. Even by the definition of found family. No, it's an American father. You had a much better argument than 3PO. And I think you and the Star Wars canon, like Christianity, are disrespecting Shmi as our contribution. This is actually a dividing line because any person who comes forward and says I stand with Mal on this, I don't ever want to talk to you.

2:08:09I just think this is a violation of canon. And I think it's a shallow, narrow view of what family is. 3PO not being eligible is tragic. What a meaningful bond that spans the entire saga. Star Wars is an entire saga about bloodlines. And it's kind of weird. And even the midichlorian stuff, when they're testing his blood, I was like, what is going on here? This is a little strange. Qui-Gon steals the blood. And many of our problems with Rise of Skywalker are that they reintroduced the bloodline stuff into what was like an opening. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're making my point for me. The problem with Rise of Skywalker is that it once again all had to be just about Palpatine and Skywalkers and those two names.

2:08:51I am trying to combat the crimes of Rise of Skywalker by broadening our view and our understanding of what family is. And the bond that you would make with a droid like R2 or choosing to build and bring 3PO into the world. Mallory, a midichlorian does not have personhood, period.

2:09:05Sean Fennessey:It's over. Family. You don't think droids in Star Wars are people? No, they're not. Somehow we did end up debating when life begins in Star Wars. I'm fine with Shmi. You guys have done it a couple of times. I'm fine with Shmi. You made a valiant effort, but your mock outrage over your bad idea will not be held up in this court. It's not mock outrage. Droids in Star Wars are main characters. Of course they are. They were eligible in other categories, not in Skywalker family member. Because they're not because of a family. Wait, hold on. You don't think a pet is a family member? No, you can't trap him with this.

2:09:37Sean Fennessey:I would have entertained it if you had brought it to the table beforehand and discussed it with you. I don't know where I would have gone, but things that are not alive are definitely not on the table. In that sense,

2:09:47Mallory Rubin:isn't Anakin's TIE fighter a family member then? No, because it's not the way he thinks of it. He thinks of that as a tool. He does have some tight relationships with some of his ships. Yeah, he does. And his saber. Did anybody bring that up? The saber, by your definition. And that's about the kyber crystal. Oh, the kyber crystal. It kind of is a little bit of that. But he's saying, R2, you're my brother. 3PO, I fill you with my hands. He never says that, does he? through his actions. Okay. You ever heard of Show Don't Tell? There's totally no evidence that he identifies them as family members.

2:10:18Mallory Rubin:Definitely never in Starlight did they Show Not Tell?

2:10:21Sean Fennessey:He definitely loves R2-D2. That's totally different. You know what I love? All my Blu-rays. They're not alive and they're not in my family. I think if you polled every listener in the big picture, can we meme that one just so we have it in the reference? He says, let's get out of here and he goes, don't forget the droids. Of the big picture would say, if you said, does Sean consider Blu-rays family members, they would say yes. He does not consider them animate objects. I'm saying for the record, as the owner of said Blu-rays, they're not in my family. All right. Easy pick for me. Amanda Phantom Menace.

2:10:49Mallory Rubin:No, I already have Phantom Menace. Chris already gave it to me. I did that like 20 ,000 minutes ago. And I said that that was better than receiving Rise of Skywalker, which is what you got. So I got the bad movie instead of the evil movie. You have to curse. Congratulations to Rise of Skywalker for its big picture evil movie designation. I have to curse you with a movie that I don't really hate that much. You have to curse me. I have to curse you, yeah. I have to curse you with Solo. That's fine. Yeah.

2:11:15Sean Fennessey:Is that the last one on the board? No. No. I have not been cursed yet. There are a few. Revenge of the Sith. Aw, you can't curse anybody with that. And Force Awakens. That's that shit. Yeah.

2:11:24Mallory Rubin:It would be more of a curse for me. I'll tell you that. Revenge of the Sith would be more of a curse for you? I'm much rather watch Solo than Revenge of the Sith. You already made the pick. I already made the pick. I'm good with the pick. He's wrong. But yeah, I'm going to curse him with Solo. Solo, you know, whatever. You are. I can't curse you with Revenge of the Sith. I like the movie too much. This is my weakest pick, but I don't fully understand the category. So, yeah, this is my weakest pick. You feel differently about the movies than other people do. So what is a curse to us is not a curse to you.

2:11:56Mallory Rubin:I have Solo ranked number eight. So it's not my favorite movie, but it's certainly not in the bottom.

2:12:00Sean Fennessey:For clarity, the game theory is that some categories have scarcity and some categories have too many options. I feel you. Right? So Shmi, someone was always going to get Shmi.

2:12:10Mallory Rubin:Well, she probably was sitting there for two hours being like, when I pull out C-3PO and they all go, oh my God. I'm fine with Shmi. Shmi is the mother of Anakin Skywalker.

2:12:18Sean Fennessey:But by the same token, someone was always going to get cursed with a movie that someone else thinks is pretty cool. Someone else thinks is cool, yeah. We don't have Star Wars without Shmi. Just throw that out there. We do not have Star Wars without Shmi. If I were you, I would have left that. This is also the theme of the Da Vinci Code, but for the Bible. All right. What is the theme of? It's in the loop. Shmi deeply wronged by Qui-Gon, who was like, I'm just going to leave you here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel pretty good about the Shmi pick. Okay, so you've got Solo as your curse pick. Yep.

2:12:45Amanda has to curse me. I have to curse now. Because she's the only one who hasn't cursed anyone, and I'm the only one who hasn't been cursed.

2:12:49Sean Fennessey:The two films that are left on the board are Revenge of the Sith and The Force Awakens. Just FYI, two movies I love. Yeah. I mean... This is a big win for Malibu. Yeah. I'm just not going to give in to you on the Sith stuff. I really like both of the movies. So I'll do Force Awakens, which, you know... Now I've got Kylo on my team in some capacity. Thrilling. There we go. Great. Is that the final pick? No, CR has his vehicle.

2:13:19Mallory Rubin:I'm going to do Luke's land speeder from New Hope. The one that he's tooling around. Isn't that ineligible because Amanda picked speeders? But she picked the ones from Return of the Jedi. She picked a specific speeder, though. She did. She picked speeder bikes. Speeders. The desert land speeder. So that pick is in, right? That pick is in. That's final. No one picked the Star Destroyers? I think they're okay. They're cool the way they start the movies. Are they even not like... Do they have any handling? They like crash into each other. They're space battleships. They're cool.

2:13:53Sean Fennessey:We saw them get fucked up in Rise of Skywalker. I mean, they get fucked up sometimes, but they're kind of indicative of what the Empire is. This like big cock show.

2:14:02Mallory Rubin:I like Gold Leaders thing. I can't remember what that's called. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:14:06Sean Fennessey:If I didn't take Boba, I wanted to take Slave 1. I always thought that was a really cool ship. Had to be renamed? Is it not called Slave 1 anymore? They had to rename it in recent years. What did they call it? It's a fucking spaceship. Talking about Chipper Jones over here. You're talking about I love Slave 1. What did they rename it? How do you feel about Slave 2?

2:14:26I think they call it, yeah. The fire spray.

2:14:29Mallory Rubin:Sean still holding out hope for Benioff and Weiss. They woke up? Star Wars? So the walkers also other vehicles that are AT-ATs. The AT-ATs. The AT-STs. Yeah, didn't get out. Zach, my husband, was sure that you guys would immediately go for the AT-ATs. I like that. I feel like we were brought down by four people with some string.

2:14:50Sean Fennessey:Well, this is related not to spoil Mando, but this was the AT-AT situation at the beginning of Mando. I was like, what's going on here? Yeah. Interesting. If you had taken Death Star in Wildcard, or in Vehicle instead of Wildcard, you could have taken Droids, and we would have some fucking Droids on the board.

2:15:03Mallory Rubin:You could have taken a real Skywalker instead of trying to make inanimate objects into family members. I have the mother who allowed the entire canon of Star Wars. Right. And that's how you've spoken about her, as do the rest of the Star Wars fandom. This is great. Yeah. Okay, so let's see.

2:15:21Sean Fennessey:There's many honorable mentions we can go through here. Do you want to talk through some of those?

2:15:25Mallory Rubin:I'll just say that I had Uncle Owen as a problematic character. Okay. Say more. He was hiding a child. Yeah, I'm sure. why was he doing that didn't want to let Luke be who he was Watto not selected on the problematic character

2:15:39Sean Fennessey:Watto one assumes would have been pretty high up there Saul Guerrero yeah Saul would have been a great pick the fucking terrorist he was like good guys he's a really interesting he's one of the examples of the way Star Wars can be interesting that's like a confrontation with what your idea of revolution is I like that right I mean I fuck with him but like let's be honest saw Lawson at a certain point, right? Yes, they communicated. He went over the line.

2:16:09Mallory Rubin:Krennic's a good villain. Krennic's a good villain. Maul. Not taken. Yeah, no Darth Maul. Well, nobody took Mace. Nobody took Qui-Gon, right? Qui-Gon is still here. Nobody took Stormtroopers as a wild card. Again, nobody taking droids as a wild card. Storm Jupiters is there no near my house. Storm Jupiters. Storm Jupiters, yeah. Nobody picked Poe or Finn. Nobody picked Chewbacca. Chewbacca not being picked is tough I like Chewbacca that's on you guys but I don't really know what's on his mind I think if we had hero and villainous two categories Chewie would have been selected certainly as a hero you would have Chewbacca the entire time was like ah it sucks

2:16:42Sean Fennessey:it's actually super tough when I get asked to do Chewbacca because I'm like I have to do a podcast I can't do that to my voice yeah um Chewie not being picked that's tough I don't if I could go back honestly like

2:16:55Mallory Rubin:I feel like Cassian I kind of had a little bit of like a I blacked out and I was like I don't know to pick here. I think I would have gone back and done Chewie if I could do it all over. What about Snoke? Honestly, I didn't think he was that bad when I was watching Last Jedi again. I was like, this is actually pretty cool. Once again, it's a Rise of Skywalker problem at the end of the day. What about General Grievous? Grievous, I thought, could have been picked, certainly. Hux could have been picked.

2:17:20Sean Fennessey:Hux could have been picked. They fucked that character up. In the third one, they fucked him up really bad. Certainly, yeah. That pivot too, that turn with him is terrible.

2:17:28Mallory Rubin:He's like, I'm a good guy too. Holograms?

2:17:31Sean Fennessey:Captain Phasma? Phasma, not a very good character. I had the hologram messages on my wild card. Holograms could have been picked as a wild card. Force ghosts? Force ghosts are pretty fun. Force ghosts? That would have been good. Jedi temples could have been picked.

2:17:44Mallory Rubin:Sure. If we were going to do any kind of... I was also thinking about for hero, I had Wedge in there. Sure, Wedge. One of your old guys. One of your original guys. I feel like I have Wedge on my team in a way because I have X-Wings, so that's fun. Would you have argued that I wouldn't be allowed to have Wedge since you've drafted the entire aerial? Do you think Mace Windu is problematic?

2:18:02Sean Fennessey:How so? Well, he's just, in the same way that Yoda fails, he's just kind of a fool. He is a fool. He's the only really strong black character in the prequels, and he's made to be a fool. Well, I mean, they were all fools. You know what? We call them fools, but at the same time, they are insanely powerful. Sidious is like just almost doubly powerful than what Mace Windu is. I mean maybe not doubly but like Sidious is just like a once in a lifetime dark force creation. The hubris and arrogance of the Jedi. You know attachment's bad. Is it? And they stopped listening to the will of the living force and they started they came to become like bureaucrats for the Senate so they lost their way which is probably another reason why they weren't listening to the will of the force which is why they probably couldn't see what Sidious was.

2:18:50Qui-Gon Jinn was talking about listen to the will of the living force. Like Daryl Morey. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Too much faith in analytics. Did you guys ever see the clip from like 15 years ago when they had Ewoks on the Today Show for Halloween, but the Ewoks showed up really drunk and then started moonwalking? Did they sing? And on big anchor side. What happened? Have you never seen this? No. This is the best minute of two minutes of daytime TV that I've ever seen in my life. Were like the puppeteers drunk? Yeah, the Ewoks. I don't actually know what was happening. I don't know about the substance intake of the people who were in Ewok costumes.

2:19:26but they started misbehaving and it's I've never seen this it's really I thought about it in wildcard I'm glad I took John Williams but it it's the single best like viral video John Williams was definitely a better pick in wildcard you made the right choice hold on Ewoks no one took Bacta tanks you know

2:19:44Sean Fennessey:that would have been a fun one Ewoks on today's show Cantina bands okay yeah so everybody's in their costumes is that cutting into John Williams could be how have I never seen this Jawas never got picked Jawas Jawas yeah Tusken Raiders? Would you have considered Tusken Raiders problematic characters? I had them on my problematic list. Jawas are problematic?

2:20:02Mallory Rubin:The way they're treated, yes. Yeah. Exterminated. Why are they doing this? That's exciting. Al Roker's dress is Han Solo. Speeder and speeder bike, that's fine. Speeder and speeder bike.

2:20:15Sean Fennessey:I think they're two different vehicles. Interesting. You don't think they're two different vehicles?

2:20:19Mallory Rubin:Like one you ride. Sure, yeah. You straddle. There's like an X-wing. Wow, has you ever seen this? I don't think so. They were fighting. Oh, here's where he moon was. Oh, maybe.

2:20:30Sean Fennessey:You know what I was thinking about taking in wild cards? What the fuck? What's going on? What's going on on the Today Show? You took Boba, but Mandalorian armor?

2:20:38Mallory Rubin:Oh, you know what? We didn't pick Mos Eisley's spaceport in wild card. A lot of great planets specific. I mean, no one took... Maybe it was Vice Today. That podcast. No one took Tatooine. We don't have rights to air NBC content on our airwaves.

2:20:50Sean Fennessey:No one took Tatooine. It's really funny. I was going to take ILM. No, that's a good one. You could have done that. That would have been a good you pick. It would have been a dorky pick, but it would have been. No one took George Lucas. Yeah. Yeah. Could have gone in a wild card. Could have gone in a wild card. What's all George up to? Aside from opening a museum. Well, I can't wait for that. I think that seems like it. I've heard nice things about the museum. Oh, good. Okay. I'm excited. It's allegedly opening in September. Can't wait. That's what they say. Yeah. Oh, like on SC's campus, right?

2:21:16Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I don't know where to do it otherwise. You won't go? You won't go to the museum?

2:21:20Mallory Rubin:I'll check it out. Sure.

2:21:21Sean Fennessey:Okay. I like museums. Do you think he has a nice life?

2:21:24Mallory Rubin:George Lucas? Yes, I think he has among the best lives. What is he up? Six, seven billion or something like that?

2:21:29Sean Fennessey:I'm not sure. Doesn't he own like most of Marin County? Is that a fact? I mean, no, it's not. And it's probably through various LLCs if he does. I'd like to go to Skywalker Ranch. Same. Same.

2:21:41Mallory Rubin:Would you go? Absolutely. Yeah, sure. There's other ranches I'd like to visit first. Yeah, well, Dutton, obviously. Taylor's Ranch in Texas like what

2:21:51Sean Fennessey:600 acres or something? let's slow down for a second you and Taylor are sitting together

2:21:56Mallory Rubin:two men trying to come up with a new idea for Star Wars and it's about how women have gotten a little ahead with themselves

2:22:03Sean Fennessey:that actually me and Taylor Sheridan his movie would be awesome I'm not against it 5.2 billion yeah his movie would be awesome his movie would actually be awesome to me it would it would it would scare people I'd watch all of the Star Wars films for this podcast except for attack of the clones which I didn't get to what if what if he made a lioness in space and your son was like I need that I need to watch that or I need to be a lioness or I need a lioness in my life

2:22:36Mallory Rubin:oh well I'll tell you what a lioness in your life will do wonders for you I think I'm raising them. I'm raising both my sons to appreciate strong women. So that's amazing. Quick question. Wait till they meet Beth Dutton. Wait till they meet Beth Dutton. Sean, there are five directors that are worth over a billion dollars. James Cameron. Can you name them? That's one. Steven Spielberg. George Lucas. Three. Five directors that are worth over a billion dollars. Personal net worth. Net worth is over a billion. Can I ask what your sort of thing is on this? I'm looking at this article that's from businessinsider.com.

2:23:17Okay. Well. Is Tyler Perry one of them?

2:23:22Sean Fennessey:Yes. Tyler for sure, right? Yes. That's a good one. This was from December 19th, 2025, so it's fairly recent. One billion dollars. There's another. This is a person who is a filmmaker second. Is it going to be like Brad Bird or something? this is a big gigantic director that directs a big gigantic property

2:23:45Mallory Rubin:Cameron we said Lucas we said Tyler Perry we said and Stephen Spurgeon I wouldn't have thought about this guy there must have been something in this deal so it's a man you're saying it won't let women direct films either it's not the little fear

2:24:00Sean Fennessey:they just won't let women have a billion dollars that's really the issue gosh it's gotta be so obvious that it's it's not that obvious because when I saw that I was actually surprised but it makes sense when you think about it it's when I saw it I was actually surprised but I was like huh he has that much bread but it must have been in the deal for these movies that he made that he had some kind of crazy back end or first Dollar Girls is that like Todd Phillips is it? okay I feel good that it's not Jack do you know? we were gonna guess J.J. Abrams no no no it's Peter Jackson I was oh damn it I was just gonna guess Of course.

2:24:35When you said of course. Yeah. That makes sense. When I saw that, I was like, because I don't know what the structure of his deal was. Well, he also has

2:24:43Mallory Rubin:Weta or whatever. Weta. Weta. And he's got the Hobbit movies and so he's made a lot of money and done a lot of stuff. Yeah. Peter Jackson.

2:24:50Sean Fennessey:That's really interesting. Great trivia. I love trivia like that. Yeah. That's wonderful. Okay. How many of you guys have a billion dollars? None of us. Sadly. No. Working on it. Yeah, not yet. What if we put all of our wealth together? Could we buy the Skywalker Ranch? I don't think so. probably couldn't even buy a teacup. Yeah, I don't think we could buy the tailwazers. How does everyone feel? You ready to recite your picks?

2:25:12Mallory Rubin:I feel like I started strong. I wobbled in the middle and finished fine. Wobble with it. I feel like I did pretty good. I feel like there are a couple of choices in there that like, you know, whatever.

2:25:28Sean Fennessey:I think you guys brought great creativity to the categories. I feel like I kind of was... Some of us may be too much. well one tried I tried I'll read mine first since I picked first in movie I selected the Empire Strikes Back in Skywalker Family Member I picked a living person named Princess Leia in hero or villain I chose Ben Solo aka Kylo Ren in the movie I was cursed with I received Attack of the Clones from Mallory in vehicle I chose Darth Vader's TIE Fighter which is called the TIE Advanced X1 In Problematic Character, I picked Newt Gunray, who runs the Trade Federation, who is a terrible stereotype.

2:26:06Sean Fennessey:And in Wildcard, I chose one of my favorite characters of all time, Boba Fett. Mal? Pretty good. In Movie, I selected A New Hope. As my hero in Hero or Villain, I selected Obi-Wan Kenobi. My Wildcard, Lightsabers. Problematic Character, Jar Jar Binks. I received from Amanda, not really a curse. Thank you. Star Wars, The Force Awakens, my vehicle, X-Wings. If you made me pick specifically, it would be Red 5, Luke's T-65, but X-Wings more broadly. And then my Skywalker family member is the matriarch who allowed us as pop culture fans, as lovers of story, to talk about this at all. Shmi, thank you.

2:26:58Thank you.

2:26:59Mallory Rubin:I honestly don't remember this person at all. Okay. Van, you're third. Pretty good. Darth Vader in Hero of Villain. Probably should have took him to Skywalker. Millennium Falcon in Vehicle. The Force in Wild Card. Rey Skywalker. Skywalker family, remember. Remember. Remember. Return of the Jedi in Movie. Felt like that was a steal. Darth Sidious, a groomer of children. A liar. And problematic character. And was cursed with just a fucking whammy. Yeah. Star Wars, The Rise of Skywalker. That fucking hurts. In Skywalker, family member, I have Han Solo. In movie, I have The Last Jedi. In problematic character, I have the elder person in the age gap relationship and also questionable leadership tactics from Padme Amidala.

2:27:49Wild card, I have John Williams' vehicle. I have speeder bikes, hero or villain. I have Yoda. And then I was cursed with The Phantom Menace, which I think is quite poor. so that was effective

2:28:00Mallory Rubin:in Skywalker family member I took Luke Skywalker in movie I took Rogue One in Wild Card I took the Death Star in movie I've been cursed with I was given Solo a Star Wars story hero or villain I took Cassian Andor problematic character I took the man who needs a Rico charge Jabba the Hutt and in vehicle I took Luke's speeder from A New Hope that he drives around the desert in fun stuff fun only question about the presentation of it is like because the swap on the movie we were just going to do graphic design well I am curious about this because like I think Rise of Skywalker where Sean chose to hit Van with it was like part of I think the power of the pick like it looks like a really high pick and now it's at the end you should have like a little fuzzy mic same with Phantom Menace and you just walk people through everybody's pick and then do an extended monologue about why you tried to pick both a pile of metal It doesn't affect me.

2:28:57A pile of milk. The droids are indelible and inextricable from the spirit of Star Wars. Rise of Skywalker.

2:29:03Sean Fennessey:As competitive and obnoxious as I am through all of these experiences, I do not know the winner of any of the last 10 drafts. I literally couldn't name them. So while I do respect your concern for clarity in terms of the picks, we've kind of evolved beyond winners, losers, victors. Feel great. I agree. Had a blast. This was a good one. This was a great one. Thank you, guys. What fun. Star Wars, pretty cool. Mando and Grogu, we'll just do this all over again immediately after it's released.

2:29:31Mallory Rubin:And we just don't know the plot of this movie or even the logline.

2:29:34Sean Fennessey:I think that we do now because of what we saw. They're hunting Imperial remnants, right? They're trying to get a warlord. That's the logline. That may come up. I don't want to spoil it for anybody who's excited about the film. How was the Doomsday trailer? I didn't like it. Oh, oh, no. But that doesn't mean other people won't like it. that's upsetting yeah did you read about it read a little bit did you read about it yes did you watch it it's not available I thought that they oh they didn't release it they have not released it yet okay it doesn't do anything you really haven't seen before is Downey's accent good I don't think he spoke you don't think he spoke or if he does

2:30:13Mallory Rubin:it's very quiet I didn't know if it was like high Latverian or you know like kind of a new take on it or what

2:30:19Sean Fennessey:you mean like does he sound like Roger Rabbit or something

2:30:24Sean Fennessey:I mean I look forward to both of your thoughts and yours as well Chris it's okay will you be seeing Doomsday?

2:30:29Mallory Rubin:I will be seeing Doomsday will you see it in Dune on the same day? sure if it comes to that

2:30:35Sean Fennessey:will you pay the Infinity Vision upcharge?

2:30:37Mallory Rubin:oh yeah for sure I've been looking forward to a new way of watching Marvel movies

2:30:41Sean Fennessey:I read it's roughly$300 more than your average ticket is that okay? yeah any closing thoughts? just great to share Star Wars with friends truly what a treat really hope Mando movie's good and that they let Grogu shine and what's next after Mando

2:30:59Mallory Rubin:we just don't know Starfighter Starfighter next year next May with the biggest star in the world won't have to wait long so that's exciting but like no more shows

2:31:08Sean Fennessey:we're getting a second season of Ahsoka pretty soon oh yeah that's right is that the last one that's in production to my knowledge they're doing it right now Mulder me I mean Shadow The mall show is on right now. Shadow Lord. The animated shows continue and they're excellent. The mall show is really good. Really good. It is. Thank you guys for making the time for this. You can listen to Van Lathan on Seven Pods. Yeah. A lot of podcasts. Mal can hear you on House of R. House of R. And other pods. CR. Is this your first pod? Yeah.

2:31:41Mallory Rubin:This has been exciting. I've been wondering what it's all about. They're real natural. Thanks. It's really exciting.

2:31:45Sean Fennessey:Amanda, where can we find you? You know. Just catching up on all of these tabs I have open. The tabs are Chronological Order, Skywalker Family, What Does Saw Gerrera Do, and Drunk Ewoks on Today Show. So if you need me. All good queries. I can't wait to see your algorithm next. The next time you see Amanda, she will be on this feed talking about the Devil Wears Prada too. And so for all that bluster about the Phantom Menace. Have you seen it? No. As of this recording, I don't know when this is airing because we might be doing a little future recording here. Oh, okay. well I have seen it when people are listening to this you will okay and I'll be there for it I have my outfit ready so that's all that matters yeah I think we're seeing it at a Burbank AMC so I don't know what you need to wear oh I see okay I'll be dressing up for the screening because that's something that I do you should do that like Stanley Gigi I'll be in a ball gown thanks so much to Jack Sanders thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh thanks to everybody at home we'll see you next Friday for the Devil Wears Prada 2

2:32:48Thank you.