The Superman Movie Rankings

24:40You didn't, right? Like, what is the DCU movie you really want? I think I more so want to see characters than I want to see specific movies. I was really actually excited for the Authority movie, which it doesn't seem like is going to happen now. They were always really cool. Even though the engineer is in this film, it doesn't seem like she is coming back as part of the Authority. She did survive the movie. She did survive the movie, which I thought that maybe there might be a turn for her at the end. because she was a little bit skeptical of Lex at certain points in the film. I think they set us up for that.

25:14A little bit, right? But I'm interested in Lobo. Clayface will tell me whether or not the DCU works. That's the movie to me that'll tell you whether or not it works. This one, the fact that James Gunn can make a fucking awesome Superman movie, I always knew that. Did you? I did. I remember you being so scared. I was scared once I saw the trailer. Before that, it seemed like it made sense. Before that, it's like, oh, you need an earnest, sweet movie with a lot of spectacle? James Gunn. But now, Clayface, it's such a swing and it's such a distinct and interesting project to even take on. That tells me whether or not their world has form and shape.

25:57Yeah. Honestly, I'm really looking forward to the Damon Lindelof Lanterns show. Oh, wow. Yeah. Green Lantern, a character that, again, is kind of in the mix for me, but not one of my guys distinctly. so I'm very curious to see what they do with a variety of lanterns in that context. Obviously, we get one here in Superman 2. Actually, I was really pleasantly surprised and heartened to see Hawkgirl in this movie, a character who I know, again, mostly through the Justice League animated show. And it's a really cool character in the context of that show. And I just assumed, like, would never really be on screen in a meaningful way in a movie.

26:30And so the fact that she can be done well in a movie, I think it bodes very strongly for what they could do with some of these minor characters. Now, can they hold their own movie in the way that, like, I'm sure they hope that Clayface will and hope that Aloba will? We'll see about that. But incorporating some of these world-building elements, I think so far has gone more smoothly than I would have imagined. I'm very curious to see if they market Clayface as a hard DCU movie or as just a movie along the lines of The Conjuring. Like, it's directed by James Watkins. It's written by Mike Flanagan.

26:59These are horror filmmakers. Yeah. And they might just position the movie in like a DCU dark. Like there might be a kind of like sub universe in which they can make 50 to 75 million dollar movies that don't have to make 800 million dollars to justify themselves. I would love that. I was asking for that from the MCU a long time ago while understanding that they were building towards these epic events. That's part of the fun of comic books is like not every comic book needs to be, you know, the infinity crisis or whatever. Like it doesn't they don't have to be these like lead ups to something. Anyway, do you remember how we ranked the Batman movies?

27:35Do you want to hear how we did it some years ago? I would love to hear it. There were 14 Batman films at that time. I think there are still only 14 Batman films if you don't include those animated films that you're talking about. Other than, I remember we did Mask of the Phantasm. That one's a thing. Yes. Fucking fantastic. Anything related to Batman the Animated Series that was theatrical, we would do. So 14, well, first of all, three of these movies will come up again today in our rankings. Batman and Robin was 14. R.I.P. Joel Schumacher. Justice League directed by Joss Whedon was 13 Batman the Superman Dawn of Justice was 12 the Snyder Cut was 11 the 1966 Batman movie oh yeah was 10 a movie I really like it's good the Lego Batman movie was 9 too high Batman Forever was 8 Mal would kill you if she heard you say that it's not a funny movie I don't You don't think he's funny?

28:32I think we talked about it. It just didn't work for me. Right. You know, and so if you've got... It might be sitting at nine because of you. I think it probably was. If you've got a joke a minute movie and the jokes aren't landing, I just feel like I'm being humbled at a certain point. I'm just watching Batman eat lobster Thermador. It's like a real... He's hysterical to me. Number seven is The Dark Knight Rises. Very silly movie. Maybe funnier than the Lego Batman movie. Number six is Batman Begins. Number five is Mask of the Phantasm. Number four was The Batman. Number three was Batman Returns.

29:01Number two was Batman. And number one was The Dark Knight. Are you guys ready to admit that Batman Returns is better than Batman 84 yet? Are you ready to put the proverbial bird in your mouth a la Catwoman? You don't know. And just swallow it down? You weren't there. You don't know. I know which movie's better. I remember arguing about it. I still am quite upset. I feel like a residual frustration in my chest with the two of you. I don't want to generationally other you, but I will. And you weren't there. stuff. It's not better, but for some reason... It's not better. It's not better. But because...

29:36Nicholson, bro. It's not better. Prince. Yeah, sure. Prince and Jack Nicholson participated in Batman. Jack Nicholson participated for eight minutes. He was fucking cooking in that movie. It's true. He got paid so much money to do that movie. What did he get? Like 10 % of the gross or something? and top billing. Top dollar, yeah. Over a top dollar. Yeah, over a bit. But I will say that Batman Returns is the more contemporary story of the two. Oh, it's Trump. It's, yeah. Oswald Cobblepot. Batman Returns is the more contemporary story of the two. Prescient. Yeah. The first one is a better, it's a better movie to me, but when I watch, I can connect more to Batman Returns watching it right now than the original Batman.

30:26I appreciate that olive branch fan. Thank you. I offer you nothing. Superman rankings. I'm going to list the movies that we're going to rank today and I think we should talk about each of them with some care. Can we go, before we leave, you know, before we leave Batman real quick, leave Batman, leave Crime Alley. There is a discussion to be had about, I think the nerds will back me up, about the Dark Knight Rises versus Matt Reeves the Batman now we we did do this ranking in the immediate aftermath of the Batman right the Dark Knight Rises is very silly okay it has cool stuff in it yeah we did ridiculously cool stuff like like shit that's so fucking cool that like Bane's interest into that movie is it's great so fucking cool it's like shit that's so cool that you go okay the autopilot But they're like really cool shit.

31:29I think there's an argument there. I still would have Reeves Batman a little bit over it. Charles would not. He loves the Dark Knight Rises. I think the Dark Knight Rises is, it's got some momentum with the people right now. Interesting. Are they familiar with the back half of that movie? They are. And they like it. Which is, it's a pretty terrible third act, in my opinion. Quite bad. Look, all I'm saying is there are a lot of people who are looking at Bane. They're looking at Batman's art. I'm looking at Catwoman. I was about to say. Looking at Catwoman. There's something all of us are looking at in that movie.

32:07She's fantastic in it. She's very good. I just think the movie was, it was... Glenn Powell as a stockbroker. Sure. Real quick, concussion. It was received to me in a fair way, which is, this is a movie that doesn't really work towards the end, but still there's the Robin thing just stupid and all that. I actually liked the like setup and reveal, but it was annoying knowing this would never happen. Like even watching the movie in real time, I was like, this guy will never be back. Like no one's never making another one of these movies. They're not going to continue this universe. And they didn't.

32:37Right. But I think that the movie's aging really well and people are reexamining it. I don't know why. Maybe because it's on cable so much, I'm not sure. Maybe. It's very rewatchable. Yes. In an idle, like I can just walk out of the room for 20 minutes during the back half, like that genre of movie. I think it's quite successful. I agree. We did a watch along on this show of the movie because it's just fun to watch. Whether it's good or not is debatable. I think also how the Batman 2 is and what Reeves does in the future will probably help determine some of these rankings in the future. Certainly.

33:05We're not doing Batman right now. We're doing Superman. There have been a lot of Superman movies. Probably not too many yet. I think it'll be interesting to see how many movies either James Gunn or the DCU decides to focus on Superman. When we were kids, there were four straight Superman stand-alone movies. And I don't know if it was Zack Snyder or Warners or whatever kind of blinked in that era and immediately was like, not another Superman movie. It's got to be Superman and other stuff. Yeah. And that's quite fascinating and even different from what the MCU has largely done. So you've got technically five, but literally four Superman movies from the Reeve era.

33:49we will be talking about the Donner cut here on this episode. One Brandon Ralph movie from 2006 directed by Bryan Singer. Then the Henry Cavill era, there is Man of Steel, Batman versus Superman, Dawn of Justice, Justice League, and Zack Snyder's Justice League. We will not be addressing the ultimate cut of Batman v Superman, which has an additional 30 minutes of footage that I have not watched in preparation for this episode. Right. And will not watch probably ever. And then now we have David Cornswet era, James Gunn, Superman. Right. how many movies is that 11 11 movies okay you've talked a lot about the Christopher E.

34:27there the first two films are directed by Richard Donner one of the signature Hollywood directors of the 70s and 80s you know responsible for the Lethal Weapon franchise The Omen The Omen a number of really good movies Inside Moves big Bill Simmons movie that Chris Ryan refuses to watch for the rewatchables Conspiracy Theory he directed that movie I remember that Julie Roberts Mel Gibson have you seen it Rob? I have not it's about 4chan so is Superman it turns out you know there's a lot of posting happening there's a lot of posting so you came to the Reeve movies later a little later like I would say I watched the first two in my later teenage years and I had heard the third and fourth ones were so bad like don't even bother watching them came to those a little later in life I have differing opinions on them to some extent But yeah, the first two, I was not as locked in as I was on Batman, but early enough to kind of have it be a semi-formative part of the experience.

35:26So for me, the first Superman movie, and this is not a criticism, is at the very top of the second tier of 70s blockbusters. Okay. The first tier is very clearly Jaws. Sure. Star Wars. there's a handful of movies that are so totemic that are so impactful in my life that Superman doesn't get over those but it's right below those because I watched it all the time from 4 to 12 Reeve is Superman to me will always be Superman to me and the movie did something that I think was very smart that other filmmakers have tried to do but have struggled to do with this character which is that they cast a lot of really, really good actors to elevate the material.

36:15Zack Snyder tried to do this too and it didn't work quite as well. But when you look back on those movies now and you see Marlon Brando's face and he's kind of terrible in Superman. But it doesn't matter because he has so much gravitas that you're just convinced that even though he's pronouncing the word Krypton instead of Krypton, you still kind of buy it. He has that like Alec Guinness in Star Wars effect where it's like credibility. like immediately right off the bat like he's so featured so early in the movie and then like robbed out of the second one but like he does bring a sort of like a sense of legitimacy and grounding to it for sure and he was the father of acting for that time he was everybody's dad he and so seeing him he was legitimately the father of the greatest film that's ever been made so him going from Vito Corleone Island of Dr.

37:05Moreau you're talking about it's a Van classic I'll bet it is it's a Van classic I'm worried about you Van it's a Van classic to him being Superman's dad it just made sense you know who didn't really respect it is Christopher Reeve he fucking killed him he really did not like him and talked about it publicly about how he did not work hard on this movie so you when I saw that for the first time it made me respect Reeve so much more he did that on David Letterman just ripped Brando a new one that is something that would never happen now like never and it didn't seem uncomfortable for anyone he was just talking his shit I'm like he must really have had an odd or bad time with this guy I think I had seen that before but seeing it in the recent Christopher Reeve doc that came out last year it's bracing and Reeve that's an interesting portrait of him as a man and kind of the positives and the struggles that he had and the way that he got a little big for his britches too when he was Superman and like his relationship to his family.

38:11Very interesting movie. But he's not really portrayed as like a braggadocious A-list movie star. He actually seems relatively humble about his work. So for him to have done that, he must have really hated Brenda. Superman holds a very special place for me. Do you agree with that A-tier thing or is this movie over those others too? No, I have to agree with it. And it's funny because in the research, they wanted Spielberg maybe to have a shot to direct this movie. But after Jaws, they couldn't get him. So they just, they thought he was out of reach. So it showed that there were tears to it. Donner was obviously a big director and a big get for them.

38:55The movie and the production of it is almost itself deserves a documentary or a film made about that. But no, it's certainly under those movies. but it is unique in that it is proof of concept to big budget superhero storytelling in a very direct way. It's legitimately the father of all the other films. It is like patient zero. It's the thing that kicked every, I think it is really the thing that kicked everything off. Like without this movie, we're not in this place right now. Superman 2, I think the Lester cut is fine and it's what I grew up watching. The Donner cut is like roughly 15 minutes shorter, tighter.

39:31It's a little bit hard to evaluate because there's ADR and there's some like special effects stuff that's not as sharp as you would want it to be and you would expect if he remained on the film, but he was fired from it and replaced by Lester, who I think to that point was probably best known for like the Three Musketeers movies. And then before that, the Beatles films, Hard Day's Night and Help and stuff like that.

39:55I unequivocally love this movie. So I don't, even the two cuts, like it's not even like a problem area for me. We were discussing the idea of which cut is better than the other history on House of R earlier. And it's going to be hard to move past these two in these rankings. It's kind of interesting that they're almost 40 years old. I know. And they still feel like maybe the purest conception of the character.

40:25Superman 2 is fucking amazing, man. It's fucking amazing. The first movie is proof of concept to the fact that you can make a man fly. The second movie is proof of concept that you can make people care about not super, but man. By overwhelming him with forces, by making him contend with the legacy of his family and the past of his planet, depowering him, repowering him, it's just a really fucking good movie. There's a surprising choice that is made in the first movie of, you know, inserting Terrence Stamp, you know, Zod. Yeah. And sending those three figures from Krypton to the Phantom Zone and then paying that off in the next movie, which is that, is that the first kind of purposeful, not even Easter egg.

41:17That's the first Thanos, I'll do it myself. Yeah. It's like, and it's not a stinger. It's a pre-stinger, you know? It's a little amuse-bouche before the meal of Superman 2, which is kind of a fascinating, I mean, I'm sure they thought Superman would be successful. So it's a good idea to set something like that up. But in 1978, that was pretty bold. And it was kind of a double production, but also kind of not. I would say if you're going to pick any knit with the first Superman, it's that it takes like an hour for Christopher Reeve to show up. And the second he does, that movie takes off. And so it's like, do you need the Zod preamble and the Kryptonian justice system up top?

41:54Maybe you don't. But I admire that they were trying to seed that stuff so early. So the thing, first of all, I was going to ask you this about the double production of movies. Had that happened before? Because now we see it on film, that undertaking, them knowing that we are getting into a franchise. That this is a franchise. Yeah. Like we're getting into a franchise. I can't think of one off the top of my head. I'm sure there must have been some version of this, but. The thing that works about Superman 1 in terms of the beginning to me, the Krypton stuff is like, you watch it and you go oh shit alien like I'm on another planet and I think to myself for all of Man of Steel's problems which it has a lot the Krypton stuff in the movie is really well done to me it's pretty good it's really well done we'll come back to that but when you watch that stuff and like it's glowing and you're like oh he's riding a fucking dragon all of a sudden No, I'm talking about the original Superman.

42:57Oh, okay. It's kind of the same thing. It's kind of the same thing, though. But when you watch that first movie, and it's like, oh, shit. And it's like the little baby that's walking through the thing. You're like, Jesus Christ. This is where he's from. And it's such a contrast to the world that we live in that I think it was probably deeply, deeply curiosity-inspiring for a lot of people who watch the movie. Yeah. Okay, Superman 3. Trust me, got a lot of Man of Steel takes. Superman 3. Superman 3. Richard Lester stays on this project. I hadn't seen this movie in some time. And I think it's very silly.

43:34And yet I liked it. I didn't love it. It's a little long. It's a little long. And it definitely wants to be Silver Streak instead of a Superman movie. It's a good call. You know, like it wants to be a zany Richard Pryor movie. and it kind of like won't let itself be a Superman movie for long stretches of time. Yeah. But I didn't hate it. I'll also say Annette O'Toole is very important to me. Yeah. Very pretty. And I don't I don't love the sidelining of Lois. We understand some of the reasons why Margot Kidder having some struggles. This affects both of the next two Superman movies. But I was happy to be with Lana quite a bit.

44:17And I got maybe a little bit too much Robert Vaughn and Pamela Stevenson. from Superman got a lot of Pamela Stevenson in that movie. He did. He basically like did a BP oil spill just so he could get with Pamela Stevenson. Yeah. Wow. These are some more. The original thirst trap was Lorelei. Yeah. Yeah. These are some low-key like super horny movies. Like every woman in the Reeve Superman is like trying to get with Superman all the time. I respect it. Kind of makes sense. What did you think about Superman 3? I like how weird it is. And honestly, if you're going to make me pick between the flawed Superman movies, as we will, give me the one that's like a little funnier and lighter on its feet.

44:57And then I'm trying to, I'm like constantly trying to figure out like, what is this movie in a way that I don't mind? What do you think of it? So contemporary superhero comedy, which they kind of hadn't tried to do that, right? Yeah. Everything is a first and something's first. But like when you watch the film, what I didn't remember about watching the movie before was the beginning sequence, which the Richard Pryor at the unemployment office or the like five minute Mr. Magoo sequence that sets up various Superman safes that the it's so silly it's crazy which is super it's almost as if Lester went you know what I came in and I did the Donner movie and even though it became my movie because he reshot tons of stuff it was Richard Lester's movie to the degree that it could be if I was making the Superman movie This is how I would make it.

45:53This is what I think we should do. There should be a lot of comedy. There should be Richard Pryor. All of this stuff. It's like, because it's totally so different than what we just saw. Yes. Like, completely different. The beginning scene annoyed the shit out of me. Because I didn't remember it as much. And I was like, let's get to this shit. But there's some good stuff in there, man. There's the, we fucked up the kryptonite. And it really just turned Superman antisocial. rather than it kills him. The synthetic kryptonite doesn't hit the same. It doesn't hit the same. It's a cool idea that leads to arguably the best Reeve performance because he's playing opposite of each other.

46:31And so he gets to do something a little different than kind of dopey, bumbling Clark opposite the majestic Superman. He gets to play like a lot of colors. From like a storytelling logic perspective, Superman like splitting in two. I'm not sure I fully get the math on that one. I mean, I think it's a metaphor. I mean, it is a metaphor, but in a very literal movie. During those scenes, you can tell that Reeve is having so much fun. He likes it. Even when he's just a little bad, right? And he starts trying to hit on Lana. He goes, I always get there on time. Sit down. Have a little time. Let's have a little talk.

47:14Superman trying to hide my house whoever did the eyeliner in that movie went crazy crazy and then Superman starts getting the five o 'clock shadow coming in oh it's so good huh what are you looking at what are you looking at huh get out of here I really like that that scene early on when he has just received the the the altered kryptonite where he's in Lana's house and she gets a phone call that there's like a bridge that's what I was talking about yeah that's what he said because he's just a little bad right now. And he's looking at her like, what's up with you? You know what I'm saying? It's Superman.

47:49What's the deal, baby? Superman 4. You know, it's a movie. It's, uh, let me put it this way. It's not as bad as I remembered. Okay. I kind of speak on it. What spoke to you this time? Well, so the film rights go to Golan and Globus from Canon Films. Famous, kind of like schlockmeisters who made a lot of movies in the 70s and 80s that were very genre-focused or kind of like spiritual but not creative successors to Roger Corman. And they made a lot of movies in that time that are not great but are fun. If you were a kid in the 80s and the Golden Globus thing came on before a movie, you just knew that the movie was about to have a lot of action and it was probably a good hang.

48:37And probably some babes. That was the other thing that they were very interested in babes. Yeah. And this movie is not as lewd as some of their movies and not as violent as some of their movies, but it is as silly as a lot of their movies. I had forgotten how much I remembered about Nuclear Man. Yeah. When Nuclear Man shows up in this movie, I was like, oh yeah, I watched this a lot. I'm very familiar with this very strange actor and his kind of growling voice that has been ADR'd by Gene Hackman. Yes. What's going on with the Gene Hackman voice? Do we know? Did you know that, that Gene Hackman is doing Nuclear Man's voice?

49:10Isn't that bizarre? It is, but Nuclear Man has part of Lex's DNA. I get it. And also part of Superman's DNA, right? Well, it's most of Superman's DNA. Yes, his hair. The hair. We didn't talk about this, but... This is straight up in the new movie. The fact is... There was something else, too, I'm going to be honest with you. He pulls a couple of things. Yes. James Gunn from this movie. Yeah. The fact that this is an inspiration for the new Superman is really interesting, and I didn't clock it at all until I rewatch this. He pulls a couple of, he literally redoes like a couple of scenes from past Superman movies just to go, this is my version of this.

49:51Yeah. This is my version of this. This is my version of this. But I'm sorry I stopped talking about it. Oh, no, I was going to say, I think starting with the fact that both are movies of advocacy. Like this movie gets made because Christopher Reeve wants to make a movie about nuclear proliferation. Like that was his cause in the making of Superman 4. And so if you want to take like the lineage of these Superman movies and how they influence the new one. It's all over the place in terms of this really direct connection with a quest for peace of all things. It's at least a really easy watch because it's 90 minutes.

50:21Reportedly, there is a two and a half hour cut that features many long Christopher Reeve monologues about nuclear warheads that the producers and studio cut. It's a tough beat for Reeve. We already talked about on another podcast my fear of nuclear war era of my life. Yeah, right. So - You talked about it on the Ryan Russillo podcast, one of the craziest and most entertaining. I texted you both right away when I was listening to it. I was like, this is insane. I love this. So imagine that kid obsessed with comic books, right? And then Superman comes out and saves the world from nuclear war. I cannot in any way be objective about the movie.

51:06I fucking love it it's not very good I get it guys I get it there's so much there's Lenny Luther is like a really goofy weird John Cryer performance in there I don't know what's going on with the accent like the voice he's doing I don't know what it is bizarre who is Lex's sibling that birthed John Cryer great question we never meet that character Mariel Hemingway in the movie beautiful beautiful like the whole nine pretty good performance I feel like she's really game for the tone that they're trying to do also heartening that you know a magnate who buys a newspaper could appoint their daughter you know a Nepo baby to run it and she could understand through time and experience the value of good journalism it's a really good point even the part when I was re-watching I was like Jesus Christ I love this when Lex sends out the signal and only Superman can hear it and the whole thing dog whistle I just remember so much of that is one of those everybody has one guys.

52:07Everybody has one. A movie that is whatever from your past and you just can't judge it with straight eyes. That's Superman. I kind of agree with you in that I would rather watch this than Superman 3 personally. Now it doesn't mean that it's better from an aesthetic perspective but for example the scene where Clark and Superman need to entertain Lois and Mariel Hemingway's character simultaneously. That's just really fun. It's good. That part is great. But also, why would he ever agree to that double date? Why would he think that that's a thing he could pull off? That's a good point. Flawed screenwriting and yet brilliant.

52:43You know, Van, you raised your specific fears for the nuclear war. I have a very specific fear about Superman IV that I need to share with you, which is I think Lois' brain at this point is just mush. Like, her brain has been wiped by Superman so many times at this point. But she does remember certain things over time, right? What's the one thing she calls out to Superman about? Kal-El. Your name is Kal-El. It starts coming back to her. But she has been men in black mind wiped several times in this movie and in the previous two movies that she's in. I'm concerned about the state of her. Is that a canon power that Superman has?

53:23Well, certainly not the kissing mind wipe. I don't remember it. But it became something that I was always waiting for him to do to everyone. fly in and you just kiss everybody don't even remember you're there can't do that post me too but they don't want to kiss you in these movies it seems pretty consensual in the first four Superman by the way and these movies are so male you guys have already you guys have already talked about it the only thing that's stopping Superman from being a weapon like a complete enemy of female lady advancement is the fact that he's such a nice guy because he gets fawned over.

53:59He does whatever he wants. He dictates. He looks at Lois' panties. She asked for consent. What color? She did ask him to look. She asked. She asked and then he looked. But he is so swinging his super dick around. Like, not even trying to. But every single one. Think about the coal into a diamond thing from 3. Why are you going to overwhelm Lana like that? That's a lot. She ain't never seen nothing like that. She ain't never seen nothing like that before. He just that's some real come on bro you know that's like Drake buying the girl the$10 ,000 Chanel bag yeah it's the same thing she ain't never seen nothing like that bro you gonna get her up there in Toronto and she gonna hang with Drake and for the whole week and then she gonna she gonna call her her family back in Tallahassee and be like yo I think I'm in love yeah and he crushes the big ass diamond she ain't never seen that and literally gets down on one knee to give it to her right what is a woman supposed to think look he didn't invent gaslighting but he certainly perfected it.

54:59No, come on, Clark. He took care of Lana in the end. At the end of that movie, they were together. And he was going to be a father to that child. But canonically, then he apparently just left the fucking planet. Golan and Globus were like, fuck that. Four is really fun. It's stupid, but it's fun. Let's talk about Superman Returns. I had not seen this movie since it came out. I don't know why. Maybe I do know why now that I revisited it. But 2006, this is a canonical sequel to Superman 2. Now the movie dispenses with the events of Superman 3 and Superman 4. And something that maybe didn't lock into my mind in 2006, but makes a lot of sense now, is that Bryan Singer, who had been directing X-Men movies at this stage of his career, Those movies were produced by Lauren Shuler Donner, who was Richard Donner's wife and a very successful producer.

55:52They ran the Donner Company together. So in their mind, who better to continue the legacy of the Donner Superman movies than Bryan Singer? Knowing what we know now, we know that was not the best idea for a variety of reasons. Obviously, some very serious ones. And also the fact that Singer is a messy director who makes messy movies, some of which reach great heights, some of which are bewildering. This movie is kind of neither. It's just like a stale piece of bread. It's like a crazy inert, dull slog of a movie with none of the verve and oddity of the first four movies, but also none of the, at least the kind of like committed upon intensity and anger of Man of Steel, which I despise, but could at least defend as an artistic choice.

56:42I've totally forgot what a nothing this movie is. Can I posit a reason why that's the case? Like, it's really clear that this movie owes a lot to the Donner movies. Like, there are so many direct references to them, down to, like, Clark following Lois too fast into the revolving door, and, like, all these little callbacks to the original movies that feel, like, cosplay to the point that I just, I'm losing the earnestness there's so much winking happening. But also it feels like a movie that loves those movies and holds them so tightly, but is so ashamed to want to be them. And the way that honestly, like X-Men and X2 managed to overcome this a little bit, those are a shame to be X-Men movies.

57:19They don't want to put anybody in spandex. Like they don't want the bright colors. And so picking Bryan Singer of all people for all reasons to be the director of this movie was just like such a bad call. And I think muted it into just an absolute like snooze fest of a movie. It's so drab. So did you, how many times have you seen this movie? I'm not sure. I don't remember when the last time I had seen it prior to this rewatch. It was by far the least fun part of me rewatching all of these. It's dreck. It's like terrible. It's the worst part of superhero storytelling. It's unambitious. It's derivative.

58:02It plays loose and fast with the canon of the character. introduces things like a super sun that it can't possibly in any way come to terms with. It just kind of dangles it out there and leaves it there. The leads have no chemistry. Now, crazy how off they both are. I mean, honestly, and like Spacey is fine, I would say, but I would say they go 0 for 3 or maybe 1 for 3. I think he gets one Spacey scene that if you liked him as an actor at the time before all the allegations, he was doing the thing that he was great at which was like that heavy hyper intelligent smarm you know the John Doe the Kaiser Soze at the end the kind of like I will explain to you why I'm the best like he had a knack for that kind of thing so he made a lot of sense as Lex at that time but he really only gets to do that one scene on the boat with Lois and even the rest of the movie like they kind of redefine what kind of character he is because he goes to prison and then he gets out so he has to be kind of like more of a con artist instead of a genius yeah he's dressed up and using Southern accents and doing all of that stuff like that.

59:08It's like, that's stuff for Lex Luthor's minions to do. I'm sure there's a little bit of that for Lex, but it's like, it's not, the movie just, it's made, it's nostalgia porn by someone who so loves the character that they're hugging Superman so tight that they're squeezing all of the life out of it. And it just does not work in any way, shape, or form. Not a bit. Like, it just, even at the end when Brandon Routh who this is no diss to him it's like one of his very early movie roles I'm sure that you know I read a story that says he sits down with with Bryan Singer in the coffee bean over on Sunset and he stands up and Bryan Singer goes oh my god he just kept going up and up and up and up this is my Superman this guy probably calls home and the time of his life the of a lifetime, the role of a lifetime.

1:00:06So I'm not trying to get at a young guy that was doing that, but like the end of the movie, he flies, he's flying. Right. And he does the Christopher Reeve look left, look right. Yeah. And then look at the camera. Don't do that. It's that's not, you can't do that. Fuck. I'm just being for real. Like you, you, that we don't want to see that from you. But that's what he was cast to do. You're right. It's so clear they're putting him in that costume, and even Spacey in the Hackman costume, I think, to a degree. And it's not, the movie just in no way was fun. It didn't tell me anything new about Superman.

1:00:44There's a couple of scenes between Superman and Lois where I go, oh man, how hurt must she have been when he's off in space for five years? Yeah. But even that doesn't make sense. I get that nobody fucking knows that Superman is Clark Kent because of the hypno-glasses. But if Superman is gone for five years and Clark Kent is gone for five years, Superman is Clark Kent it just doesn't make the whole fucking thing doesn't make any sense yeah that's the largest problem with the movie is that it's completely like unsustainable from a very basic plot premise in addition to being boring which is a sin in a Superman movie Kate Bosworth could not be more wrong she was young she's too young could not be more wrong 22 years old I mean also just doesn't have it and certainly doesn't have Lois like just no Lois energy whatsoever to Kate Bosworth this will be an interesting showdown to me between that movie and the next movie we're going to talk about.

1:01:38Man of Steel. I shared this with you on the House of R episode. I really hate this movie. But I think I might respect it more than I respect Superman Returns. So Chris Ryan and I saw this movie together. We were working at Granlin at the time. We went to a Saturday matinee. We were like, sure. I liked 300. I'm ready for a new Superman. I don't really remember having any feelings towards Superman Returns. This movie is produced by Christopher Nolan. So we definitely were huge fans of The Dark Knight and thought that that portended something exciting. And I was angry at the end of this movie. And there are not a lot of movies that have made me angry in my life.

1:02:23Maybe vexed. You pointed to my existential crises over the years. Sure. but the like profound misunderstanding of the character that I thought was elemental to this telling made me mad. So I know that I that was a stronger reaction than some people had. The movie was ultimately considered a disappointment both creatively and box office wise but not like a fiasco or anything like that. They made sequels to this movie. Where do you stand on Man of Steel? It's bad. I mean it's just like a weird moody cover of a pop song of a movie. Totally. I don't like it. I agree. I don't think Zack Snyder gets Superman on a fundamental level to a point that really bums me out to watch it.

1:03:04All that said, I think there's stuff in the first hour that's pretty good. I actually do like the Krypton stuff, like the reinvention of that world and what we see there. I think some of the Costner familial ties, like what you inherit from whom stuff that a lot of Superman stories deal with, I think it does it fairly well. Maybe Jonathan Kent being a sociopath aside and being like, don't save that bus full of drowning kids. All that just gets completely washed out once we get into very Snyder territory, which is like, there's a codex that's going to reinvent the Kryptonian race. Zod shows up and the movie just grinds to a complete fucking halt and gets really gross and really unwatchable.

1:03:44And I'm just like so bored watching these two dudes pump, like punch each other as they're flying through buildings. So it's a Superman for a cynical world. and the thing that Gunn did better than a lot of Superman filmmakers have done recently is he put Superman in his world. He built a world around Superman where Superman makes a ton of sense and where we can litigate that world with Superman and not litigate Superman in our world because that doesn't work. But I would say the Gunn world is like adjacent enough to ours that there's a lot of recognizable qualities. It is different, but there's something there.

1:04:24It is, but any world that James, you're right. Any world that James Gunn creates is a world that is, he creates the world of comic books to where there are forces like that, that we see represented in our world, but also people are willing to believe. People are a little willing and they are very, the human beings in James Gunn's Superman are almost precocious. They're almost kid-like. Like, Superman, are you an alien? You brought here to... Lex Luthor's the only one that had the idea. Even the rest of the people in the fucking Pentagon are like, hey, everybody likes this guy. We have no reason to really have the beef with him.

1:05:05Yeah. Right? This one is different. Those people in the Pentagon are the ones that are saying, we don't trust you. We don't believe you. We're hounding you over to Zod. It's legitimately the way it would happen. It just doesn't work. right? Just, it doesn't work in any way, shape, or form. If your Superman movie, the best thing in it is Jor-El, you didn't make a good movie. And by far, the best thing in this movie is Russell Crowe as Jor-El because he gets it. He gets it. She's flirting with a version of Lois Lane I can get behind, but it doesn't. I think that character is very badly written. I don't get it at all.

1:05:43I think she's badly written, but in the performance of Lois, I kind of get her being an intrepid reporter. It never looks like they've ever had sex or touched each other ever even once. I would say they have like anti-chemistry. Two performers I really like and they just have zero chemistry. Anti-chemistry. I like Michael Shannon and Azad and I think the movie at least, at least justifies the time. It's a justifiable miss to me. It's a justifiable miss. It's a movie where I go, hmm, they don't get it, but there's cool shit happening. Yeah. And so I can at least justify the myth. So it's interesting to hear you say that you, and it seems like you also like the Krypton stuff at the beginning of the movie.

1:06:28What that has revealed to me, especially his last two movies that he's made, is that he wanted to make a Star Wars movie. He did not want to make a Superman movie. Oh, this is an alien invasion movie. It is clearly a science fiction film in his eyes. And science fiction is a huge element of Superman, but it's not the essence of Superman. and I find the last hour like borderline sociopathic. The idea, because there's something interesting in Superman Returns where they wanted to make it a 9-11 parable and there is a moment where Superman falls from the sky that looks like the falling man from 9-11.

1:07:02I feel that that is a purposeful choice. Well, they turn it from subtext to text in Batman v Superman. I'm getting there. Okay. the idea of destroying Metropolis through a punch fest at the end of this movie is insane material that like no no truly thoughtful person would pursue in my opinion like I really do not understand how he thought that this is something that would make sense for this character it kind of just destroys anything else around it that I enjoy a little bit I think this is genuinely one of the last great Kevin Costner performances it's clear to me that he completely rewrote all of this stuff because that conversation that you cited where they're sitting on the back of the truck and teenage Clark is trying to reconcile what he's learning about himself and his father is trying to guide him away from sharing the truth is way more nuanced and thematically deep than anything else in the movie.

1:07:56Now, you could say that Clark is a sociopath because of the way that he is trying to guide his son, but it's at least something. It's at least like something that makes you consider the character from a different perspective. Everything else, it makes me want to have a punch fest. I think a lot of people focus on the ending with Zod, and specifically snapping his neck as Zod is trying to laserize this family or whatever. Getting to that point would be a different conversation if Superman had just single-handedly killed, I don't know, a million people on his own. Just by throwing Zod through various buildings and shit.

1:08:30You just miss me with the emotionality of a movie like this, and it starts to feel super hollow when all of these people die, all of this unspeakable tragedy happens, all of this destruction, Superman does not care. He is so divorced from the reality of that moment. And then at the end, I'm supposed to believe that he's so distraught about the decision to kill one Kryptonian or sacrifice this family. Contrasting that with the gun Superman, where this dude is trying to save not just every squirrel and every person and every building, but every kaiju, that feels like Superman to me. So go back to Superman 2, when Zod and Ursa and all of them, they're in Manhattan and they're fucking shit up.

1:09:10Throw somebody off, they're doing, and what does Superman scream at Zod? Like, he's, like, desperate. Yeah. He screams, no, you can't, the people. Like, he's desperate. Like, he doesn't come out of his body a lot, but he is like, you can't hurt people. He's like, and this Superman? Like, what the fuck? Right? is that such a weird choice I don't give a fuck about none of it punch punch punch throw you then he kills Zod snaps his neck right in front of the fucking head snaps his shit fucks his shit up we got to the point and I was look Man of Steel doesn't work man I'm saying there was some shit in Man of Steel that was cool to look at and I think Zack overreacted to what happened in Superman Returns and the fact that Kevin Smith said you can't have a Superman movie where Superman doesn't punch one thing and that went everywhere and everybody laughed because Kevin Smith has a way of analyzing and critiquing these movies that is so sticky with everybody who watches them because he's like well he knows the characters inside and out he's kind of the king of us yeah in a way but he's also written comics right so he knows that there are certain kind of like not rules but bylaws that you have to understand and so whenever one transgresses I mean he's also very positive about movies that I don't think are good.

1:10:32But when one transgresses, he's very sharp about identifying how it does that. Right. And so like, Zach went, okay, he's going to punch everything. They're like, punch, punch everything. I thought Zod was an interesting character. I just think it's because Michael Shannon is so gifted. Yeah, I thought Zod was an interesting character in that Zod didn't see himself as a villain and Michael Shannon during the press run of the movie was like, he was very adamant that Zod is not a villain. At the end of the day though, it just doesn't work. None of it works. I think we've identified kind of the two types of Superman villains.

1:11:03You either have the ones he has to punch. The Zods, I guess if you, like maybe if they had made it to like Darkseid and Doomsday and all that. Or you have people like Lex who put him in situations in which he feels trapped and can't punch his way out of, right? If it's like you're fighting public opinion, a punch is not going to help you. And it's like those are the two genres that kind of work. And ideally you want some of both. You want Superman to feel trapped within the conflict where he's trying to fight his way out of it physically, but even that has its limits. And this movie does none of that.

1:11:32You know what? To that point, you know what you want more than anything? You want Superman to care about the damage that he's doing. Totally. He's super fucking powerful. Superior. The top, right? So even when he's beating the shit out of somebody or even when he's fighting the kaiju, he has got to care about the squirrel. Yes. He has to care about the squirrel. And this Superman, at least at the beginning, I do have a take, at least at the beginning, just didn't care about the squirrels or the people. There's a funny thing that happens in this movie. We're spending a lot of time with Man of Steel.

1:12:03I also hadn't seen this since it... No, I think maybe I watched it before the Snyder Cut, but I haven't seen this movie very much. But the season's needle drop, the Chris Cornell song, when he's emerging from the Fisherman's Wharf, which is a very... Superman does care about two things. Punching Zod and the greatest catch of crab. And grunge music. And this is the Gen X Superman. This is the only Gen X Superman that we're ever going to get, even though James Gunn and Zack Snyder are very similar in age Zack Snyder's basically making or James Gunn is basically making like the 1959 Superman yeah like a a much more optimistic Superman and this is one that is bumping the single soundtrack and that's just a weird choice for Superman okay the next movie in this story is Batman vs.

1:12:47Superman Dawn of Justice now I think this movie is not as bad as Man of Steel has a laughable conclusion but there are elements of it that I enjoy in part because I think Ben Affleck is actually quite well cast as Batman. Yeah. And he's actually one of the better Batmans that we've had and I, God, I wish he had a different filmmaker. Maybe himself making a Batman movie. Yeah. Because his like combination of the perception of perfection but the kind of like corrosive insecurity that is definitional to the Affleck movie star persona is so right for Bruce Wayne. And he gets there sometimes and then other times this becomes a movie about like kryptonite spears and whatnot and it loses me completely.

1:13:34What do you think about this one? I think it's pretty embarrassing. Like I think it's a pretty embarrassing movie and frankly like in terms of what's more embarrassing the Martha versus Superman did 9-11 like that's a that's a heavyweight bout of just truly embarrassing shit to play in that movie. I do think that was a great way into getting Batman into this movie though was that like having Bruce like look around the destruction I was like okay. Yeah. This kind of makes sense to pit them against each other. I guess. So I got to say that because when I went back and watched it, I only watched the ultimate cut of this movie, and I'm going to talk about the ultimate cut a little bit.

1:14:06But when you go back, if you want to make Batman hate Superman, then watching him watch his family die again, like all of the people, which obviously Lex says that, all of the people that work at Wayne Metropolis or whatever, watching him have to watch them die again and die in his arms, that is an incredible story choice. I guess first follow up, does Bruce Wayne or Batman ever give a shit about a Wayne Tech employee who's not Lucius Fox? He just doesn't care about the people who work for him. He never shows up. It's kind of true. He doesn't even show up to the meetings. Well, does he even know these people?

1:14:43So maybe that Bruce Wayne, this Bruce Wayne, maybe he's a little bit more on top of things. Maybe. He took a helicopter to Metropolis just to be in the middle of the shit. He didn't bring none of his tech with him. He didn't bring the Batmobile. He's wearing that three-piece suit. Yeah, I know he wasn't quite Batman. He becomes Batman again because this happens. So he hasn't been being Batman. But he doesn't bring anything with him that could have actually helped. He just goes in there to get to people. What's your perspective? This is kind of a bigger conversation. Probably something you guys have talked about over the years on this show too.

1:15:16But evolution versus canon breaking. I find the Zack Snyder movies to be very much these rejections of clear understandings of how these characters operate. I'm not, in theory, against that. I think if they're done a little bit more creatively, I could get on board with it. Some movies evolve the characters. To me, the gun version is an evolution of how we understand Superman. You're smirking like you have a dangerous secret you're about to reveal. This is my last Jedi thing. Oh, yeah. Here we go. This is it. You brought this upon us. Yeah, I did. Okay. Okay, you teased us with this over the weekend.

1:15:52So I think Man of Steel and The Last Jedi are kind of like the same movie. First of all, fuck you.

1:16:02When I say Man of Steel, I mean Snyder's version of this stuff. So to me, Superman snapping Zod's neck is essentially Luke throwing his lightsaber. It's something to where you go, we're fucking with a new Luke. We're talking with a, this is different. There is a difference to me though. Give it to me. That's the eighth Star Wars film. Okay. Maybe the ninth Star Wars film. Right. This is the first Superman movie. Well, no, it's the first, it's the point taken. It's the first Zack Snyder Superman. But it's the first movie starring this Kal-El. I get it. But it is, it is something. It's not a character's evolution or change.

1:16:48It is the first time we see them. Well, the reason why I would, still defend this is because we don't watch Skywalker change. True. So when he does that, we're just like, oh shit. And then for the rest of the movie, what I was asking for, which Last Jedi people, by the way, I like Last Jedi. I just don't like Luke Skywalker and Last Jedi. Don't at me. But what the people that are Luke Pures wanted was them to explain that move and the way he's looking at things. And to me, they never get there. I don't give a fuck what nobody says. We don't go from the Luke Skywalker that exists in a world where I'm willing to put the safety and security of the galaxy on the line to save my friends to my...

1:17:34I mean, yeah, like, Obi-Wan would never do that. Yoda would never do that. The people who taught him would never do something like that. All I'm saying is that all I'm saying is, forget about them, all I'm saying is that he's willing to do that, right? And then his sister is in trouble, and he's somewhere on an island not even carried. So here's an interesting question for you in the aftermath of that theory. Is there a perfect overlap, 100 % to 100 % of Last Jedi haters and Man of Steel defenders? Probably. And what does that tell you? That I'm on the wrong side of the history? But this is what I'll say about this Superman.

1:18:11This Superman was an attempt to me to rebuild the character in a world that is rejecting him. Yeah, yeah. And that doesn't work. Like, that doesn't work. Why in the midst of the Obama era was that the Zack Snyder movie? Isn't that a... I mean, I'm sure there's somebody who will fire back with some political rhetoric about why that was the case, but it seems odd. To be honest, there was one Zack Snyder movie. Like, the guy's got one move. He is Mikhail Bridges off the dribble, taking pull-up jumpers. It's the same thing every single time. So why would we expect something different? from him, I think is the question.

1:18:48Can you please not slander McHale Bridges? I'm just saying. For God's sake. We just went to the Eastern Conference Finals. Easy score. I'm still waiting for him to take a layup. Just take the shackles off of, let him cook. Okay, look. It doesn't work for Superman. Let's just do it right here on the pod. McHale Bridges, Mitchell Robinson for LeBron. For LeBron, I'll do it. Yes or no, you'll do it. Okay. And will you do it? I'm not involved. As Adam Silver, I will sign the paper. So it doesn't work for Superman. but it works for Batman to me. Does it? It doesn't work for Superman but it works for Batman.

1:19:23It's more interesting to me. It works for Batman. It works for Batman. Batman being somebody that is hyper cynical. Batman being someone that admits to Alfred, look, we're criminals. The shit that we're doing, the shit that we've already done. Yeah. The shit that we've already done is criminal so you can't really moralize with me. Batman using all of these different sort of extra judicial ways to get to something that he believes to be true, right? To me, all of that works. And he understands the way Batman fucking fights. I'm sorry, that scene is breathtaking. He gets the way Batman would be.

1:19:59Except it's the fact that Batman kills a bunch of people. I kind of sort of agree with that. The one thing that I'll say is I think we have a little bit more flexibility in terms of how we understand a portrayal of Batman now because we've had six movie Batmans. This was the third Superman. Fair point. And so Superman was more ingrained expectation-wise in terms of what he stood for, what he stands for. And maybe it's because he's also kind of a character of absolutes and Batman's a vigilante. And so our perception of vigilantism is different than truth, justice, and the American way. I will say, because I don't want to, the fact that Batman is using guns and killing people is a huge departure for the character.

1:20:42So I don't want to underscore that. There are similarities there, but I just feel like Ben Affleck really worked. Do you think Ben Affleck watched B.E.T. Uncut? Probably. He was locked in? Probably did. He probably did. From what I know about him, he probably liked that type of shit. But look, I will say this. This movie doesn't make any sense at all unless you watch the ultimate cut. The ultimate cut is 30 minutes longer, and I would say maybe worse, just because it's 30 minutes longer. The worst thing a bad movie can be is longer. No, but Like, Rob, you're about to piss me off. I tried, man.

1:21:17It's so bad. The ultimate cut actually has a story that makes sense. What happens in this movie, the one that was released, doesn't even make narrative sense. No. There's not a this happened and this happened. They cut so much out of the film. Why did they do that? I'm not sure. Just too long. Like, they cut so much because the ultimate cut is like three hours. They cut so much out of the film that from a story standpoint, the things that are happening don't make sense. So I prefer the ultimate cut. The Martha conclusion is heinous. It is terrible. It is abominable. Justice League. Now this is a movie that Zack Snyder had to step away from and that Joss Whedon completed and then some years later, I believe four years later Zack Snyder returned to and reshot a lot of new material, created a lot of CGI mess and we experienced that movie during the pandemic.

1:22:08It was Nominally known as the Snyder Cut online, but is actually officially called Zack Snyder's Justice League. So this is two movies in one conversation, not dissimilar from Superman 2, which we didn't really get in the weeds too much of the differentiation between Superman 2 and the Donner Cut. There's a big difference between the Justice League movie and Zack Snyder's Justice League. I've only seen Zack Snyder's Justice League one time. I did not revisit it for this podcast. And when I was watching it, it was on a live watch along on this podcast, which is an insane thing we did during COVID.

1:22:40Four hours? For all four hours. What the fuck I'm talking about? I think, I want to say Amanda was pregnant when we were doing it. Okay. So that was... That's a war crime. Yeah. To a pregnant person. There was no hazard pay involved. Yeah. And I actually thought it was kind of fun. Very stupid and fun. Justice League, atrocious. I mean, look, the Snyder Cut's much better. It's still a lot of watching a CGI monstrosity go around collecting boxes and then having Zoom calls with a wall. And I'm just not intrigued by that part of the story. And that's an hour of it. That's one of four hours. Kieran Hines did a lot of voice work in this film.

1:23:17He really tried. They called him back. I'm sure he was in the booth for a really long time. The first one, I would argue, is maybe, I don't know, in the running for the worst movie of its scale ever made. The original Whedon cut Justice League is so bad. Incoherent. The Snyder cut is significantly better, but I don't know that it rises to the level of good for me, per se. The Snyder Cut is way better. The original movie was legitimately... It legitimately thrust me into a mini-depression in the theaters. I was bummed out. I was like, man, you mean to tell me they didn't put Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman together in a movie and I can't like it?

1:23:58What am I doing? What is going on? This fucking sucks. and then I got my hopes up for the Snyder Cut and it is better. It is better. I wonder, because I've watched it twice. I watched it when it came out and then I watched it again in totality twice. I've watched different parts of it at different times. I wonder if part of the fact that I like the Snyder Cut so much better, if I've like tricked myself into that. If I've tricked myself into believing, hey, this is a market step up from the other one or if it's just the fact that it, you know, if the movie just really is not doing too much more.

1:24:37I think it's an interesting, the one thing that is interesting to me about it, and again, I haven't revisited, but it's basically high fantasy inside of a superhero movie, which is very, you know, only really Thor does that in Marvel. And it's a hard thing to pull off. And I do think it is kind of, the CGI is kind of ugly, but I kind of liked what he was trying to do, which is like, this is more like the Ridley Scott movie Legend than it is a Justice League movie. and then you have that crazy coda of like Batman's nightmare, which is another thing that I was like, if this was a whole movie, this would have been interesting.

1:25:06And like he had some ideas that he was trying to get out before he got out of this whole superhero complex. It doesn't really totally work, but I like it a lot more than what he had done previously in the series. Well, you mentioned him wanting to make Man of Steel into like a Star Wars movie or a sci-fi movie. He just straight up made this into Lord of the Rings. It was like the humans and the Atlanteans and the Amazons all have one box. It's like straight rings of power, like repurposed in a way that is not the worst idea I've ever heard. Yeah. And I have to admit, the Nightmare stuff does work on me.

1:25:38Me too. I liked it. I am predisposed to a like post-apocalyptic alternate timeline in which half the heroes died kind of storytelling. Like that really speaks to me for some reason. And so I thought that stuff was kind of good. He should have just made it in a Justice movie. Yeah. They should have had somebody make a classic Superman. Right. And Zack Snyder should have, and maybe still should, have a complete injustice universe. I am for right now Guns DCU taking Superman where it is right now. But Snyder getting the chance to explore his evil Superman in a whole injustice Superman arc, right?

1:26:18Because that stuff was really, really fun. Kalika loves it. She calls him Batman in a trench coat. Batman the Flasher? He's just straight up, ready to go. I think there's two versions of the phrase what is going on here while watching a Zack Snyder movie. One of them is this is abominable and should be destroyed. What is going on here? And then the other one is what is going on here? I remember watching 300 for the first time and thinking what is going on? I've not quite seen a Swords and Sandals epic that looks and feels like this. and that movie is not perfect by any means, but it's kind of cool.

1:26:56Yeah. And it felt very novel at the time. Yeah. And the last 20 minutes of this movie also has like, huh, so you could have done this. Right. Which completely fits your sensibility. Yeah. Which completely fits the high testosterone way that you like to tell movies. You get to take Superman. Lois wouldn't be in it. Right. She would be dead. Yeah. Like you get to post-apocalyptic Justice League. Right. You get to do your entire deal. And we just never got there. And maybe, you know, Jared Leto's Joker gets to cook a little bit more. He's in there. You would love that. I didn't mind it. And then, of course, there's the David Cornswet era from 2025.

1:27:41It's the most recent Superman. Which we've seen and we all like. Yeah. It feels roundly liked. Yeah. Unusual to have a movie like this where most people, you know, non-Ben Shapiro class or like, I liked it. He is Superman. Gunn's one job was to make us believe that Superman is Superman and that guy is Superman. That world is Metropolis. That's Lex Luthor. That's one of the best of all the people who nearly get to the original Superman levels of portraying their character. Rachel Brosnahan might be able to, she might be able to snatch Lois Lane. I think she might given enough time I think she might she might be able to snatch Lois time will tell Margot Kidder in one is unreal I get it even in two as well I get it but like Rachel is doing something with Lois that is she's sexy she's inquisitive she's inquisitive she's strong she's resolute she gets her hands dirty a little bit she the more I watch the movie and I've seen it like three times the more I watch the movie she might be able to snatch the crown I think she watching all these movies in such close succession makes you really appreciate some of like the architectural stuff that's happening in the new Superman movie.

1:28:56One of which is that, that like Lois is challenging Clark and Superman. And also like even the things in the movie that you may not love as much, like the Justice Gang, I think your mileage will vary. Their presence in the movie not only gives you a way to resolve some of the final conflict stuff in the third act, but gets you the levity of the gun style of humor. But Superman doesn't have to crack the jokes. Like he gets to be earnest about what he wants and how important saving people is to him. Everyone else gets to make the jokes. Everyone else gets to challenge him. And I think Superman kind of works best as a character in contrast.

1:29:27Like you need those opposition points. There's a reason why Batman and Superman historically work so well together. And this movie kind of gets that. Like it doesn't, in doing so, it holds back a little bit of Superman where you could, I think you can fairly argue he should just be in it more. I also am fine coming out of a Superman movie being like, I want more of that Superman. I want to see David Quintin on screen as Superman again. Superman is the ultimate straight man. He's the ultimate straight man. Everybody else has to, he reacts to sexiness. That's why I was so uncomfortable seeing him be sexy to Lana Lane.

1:30:04Like we have to see Superman react to sexiness. We have to see him react to it. We see Superman react to these things and we see how, you know, strident he is. We see that interact with the world. I mean, if Annette O'Toole in 1984 appeared before you, what would you do? Who among us? Yeah, he ate dog food for her. He enjoyed it. That's how he was trying to get to it. He quite liked it. I forgot. He was going back for more. Yeah. He dug in. A lot of protein in there, one presumes. I don't eat dog food, just for the record. I was about to say, Sean. Thanks for putting that down. What was happening?

1:30:37Please don't clip that, Jack. What was happening pre-Granland? How bad were things? It was a struggle. I will admit. We never got that bad. but we gotta rank these movies. You guys did a lot of work preparing for this episode and I want to say I appreciate you. I know it's like not that hard to watch a Superman movie but some of these movies suck. So... They're more bad ones than good ones. Yeah. Unfortunately so. Let's work backwards. What is the worst one? I think it's the original Justice League. I would tend to agree. Really? Yeah. What's your argument? I got Superman Returns. Ooh. I would watch the original Justice League like any day of the week over Superman Returns.

1:31:16I never want to watch Superman Returns again. I don't know why. The movie just, there's one cool scene where he gets shot in the eye. And then that's pretty much it, dog. Superman Returns is like eating a bland cracker to me, which is not terrible. I could go so many ways right there. Go ahead. Don't play that game with me, sir, on my show. Don't race bait me, Van Lathan. I think I did that in college one time, but... You race baited Superman? You ate a... Oh, you ate a... I see. A bland cracker. All right. Experimenting. We're going to pivot right out of that one. Back into... To me, like, Justice League and to some extent...

1:32:02Like, Man of Steel is, like, taking a bite out of poison ivy. Okay. Or, like, the body would reject it and I would be ill for weeks. Okay. Justice League... is like eating what I usually call black licorice. Something that's just like, get that out of my mouth. I don't like that taste. So for some people, it's cilantro. That's a thing that you're like, ah, it's soapy. I can't. I don't want it. Okay. You're mad because the licorice is black and not red. Is that what you're saying? What are you reflecting on? No, no. Just say it. Nothing. We're all friends here. No, no, no. So you guys want, you think Justice League is the worst one?

1:32:36I do. Okay. I hate Man of Steel the most. Justice League is unwatchable to me. Okay. I want it to be Superman Returns. I like it. Superman Returns can go in the next slot. Perfect. At 10. Perfect. Perfect. Okay, cool. I don't mind it. Now, to me, there's an interesting conversation here among Man of Steel, Batman versus Superman, Superman 4. There's a lot of sentimentality for Superman 4 here on this podcast. It is widely considered bad. Just let you know, in my list, I have Superman IV ranked second to last, even though. You do? Yeah. Why? You love this movie. Because I'm being objective. You're not, though.

1:33:21That's not what this is. Then the movie would be like third. So I can't. Make the argument. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because it's like, there have been guys that have been saints that I've really liked or guys that have played for LSU. There was a guy, a DB for LSU named Demetrius Hookfin, and he couldn't fucking cover. But I defended Demetrius Hookfin for the entire time he was a tiger because I used the fact that he would blow somebody up. Yeah, like a nuclear man. Yeah. So I can watch this movie and say that I really, it speaks to me. But when you're looking at it, the seams are bursting out of the film.

1:34:00But I only want to know what speaks to you. look, if you let me be me what are we doing here if not letting Van be Van? if you let me be me in some of these movies I'll make arguments for all kinds of stuff but I'm trying, we're on the big picture here okay, indeed we're on the big picture here, so I'm trying to say the Superman of movie podcasts I'm looking at this, well talk your shit that's what I like to hear but I'm looking at this, I'm going yeah, it's probably in the lower third for sure of Superman movies if I'm just looking at it from quality and all that stuff Anyway. Where are you at on Marquez Colston?

1:34:33Pride of Hofstra. Love him. He was great. He was the man. He was the man. He was the man. Big possession receiver when we were kind of getting back to it. I was looking at his Wikipedia just now thinking of Saints players. I always remember Marquez because he went to Hofstra, which is near where I grew up. And it said he was widely considered one of, if not the greatest NFL players to never be selected to a Pro Bowl or an All-Pro team. How about that? That is kind of interesting. Anyway, moving on. I would say... I would say Man of Steel 9 Super... No.

1:35:09You're not letting Man of Steel go into the second tier. I'm just putting that out there. It's right here with these next movies. I have it in the middle. No, we're not disallowing that. On what grounds? I have it in the middle. I think it's 9. I think Batman v Superman is 8. Wait, what's at 10? we said Justice League oh sorry we gotta do 10 Superman Returns so we'll do Justice League then Superman Returns then Man of Steel okay then Batman vs. Superman because of Batfleck then Superman 4 I think so if you give me that I will take the victory of Superman 4 being that high up I will take that victory I'm letting you know you guys are going to get fucking crushed for the Man of Steel thing I don't give a shit it's a bad movie I really don't care first of all I was hating on crypto on House of R yeah you can't do that and they just came for me first of all Jomie just like cut that and was like we're putting on the internet immediately that's bait I see you yeah that's him getting this shit I clocked that immediately too that's him Jomie getting his revenge and I don't give a damn about the Man of Steel people I really don't I've been clearly proven correct if you look at the state of Zack Snyder's filmography right now okay shit he's a talented filmmaker I wish he was making different movies yeah Army of the Devil okay okay so so where are we at so where are we at Justice League Superman Returns Man of Steel okay Batman v Superman Batman v Superman Superman 4 Superman 4 is Superman 4 or Zack Snyder's Justice League what's going in the sixth spot.

1:36:59The Snyder Cut's better than Superman. I'm willing to give it to Zack Snyder's Justice League. On ambition, on scale, it is reaching for something that I think is cool. I don't think it gets there. I'm a little allergic to his style of action filmmaking, to be honest with you. But I admire what he's trying for. In a way that I'm not sure Superman IV is trying for a lot other than Christopher Reeve trying to get the word out about disarmament. is James Gunn's Superman a superior film to Superman 3 yes yeah for sure so Superman 3 would be next yeah you guys all getting this at home thumbs up this is where it gets crazy I have an argument so we're at number 5 or number 4 number 4 is the Donner cut interesting so you think Superman 2 is superior to the Donner Cut.

1:37:55I do. Can you make the case? One, it's an actual movie. I would say like there are a lot of good component parts to the Donner Cut. It's not. It wasn't made as a movie. It doesn't stand as a movie. As a result, it's just like not as cohesive. Two, I think the Lois and Clark stuff in the Lester Cut is actually a lot better. And that's not just like nobody's pointing a gun at anybody or nobody's jumping out of a window per se. It's funnier. It's sharper. I think their scenes together are stronger. And like I'm here for that. chemistry. Like the Reeve-Kitter chemistry is really important to me. Interesting take.

1:38:27I think it's so much lighter on its feet and Christopher Reeve is so funny in these movies when they let him be funny. And I think the Donner version cuts into like a self-seriousness that is almost Zack Snyder-y. Like this scene where he's in the Fortress of Solitude doing the like, haven't I done enough for humanity speech? My guy, you've been Superman for like four days. Like straight up. You just became Superman. And he's like, haven't I'd done enough doing one thing. And really, the ultimate sin. He did save the entire state of California. He did. And that was pretty impressive. And he did it by winding back time, by flying around the world.

1:39:02And guess what? He did it again. Again. At the end of Superman 2, the Donner Cut. That's the biggest thing. The ending. It's inexcusable to just recycle the ending. And the ending of the Lesser Cut is not good either. But it's not that. Strong case. I say so. let's compare the exact scenes to one another okay in the Lester cut Lois finds out about Superman being Superman because he like burns his hand in the whatever and he's not burned in the Donner cut you have the scene of Superman they're dressed up and she shoots him yeah or with the blanks with the blanks which scene is more effective to you I actually like the Lester cut version of like there's a part of Clark that wants to tell her.

1:39:49And he's like, he trips over a fucking pink bear rug, but he doesn't trip over a bear rug. There's just a part of him that wants to have that conversation. I think the Donner Cut version is magic. I think the Donner Cut, I think that version works better. I love that. I think that... The gunshot is so exciting. Yeah. It is exciting. There are a lot of what is happening here. Whoa moments in the Donner Cut. And I think overall, so Lois as a character in the Donner Cut is just so much sharper. Like she is on it from the jump. that like this dude is Superman. I just drew the glasses in my newspaper.

1:40:21Why are we even arguing about this? Niagara Falls, the whole thing. And I respect like how that character is portrayed in the Donner Cut. But like as a result, their scenes together are so much more adversarial in a way that I don't think it's like always that effective because I think it's rejiggered. If he had been able to shoot the whole movie as he intended from the start, I think it would probably be the better movie. But he didn't. The one scene that the lesser cut has over the Donner Cut is the way Zod says my favorite line it's like why like why would you you know like why would you say this to me when I know I will kill you for it if you watch the Donner cut the lesser cut he goes why would you say this to me when you know I will kill you for it he's kind of incredulous and he's more comedic in the lesser in the Donner cut he goes why would you say this to me when you know I will kill you for it it's not as funny the same he actually delivers the line differently that's the only thing that to me the lesser cut I just wanted an excuse to put those two scenes there's a part of the Lester Zod that's like kind of bored and annoyed that I like right he's very very to the thing and the other guy is like a rage monster honestly he's very mad I personally prefer the Zod and the Donner cut and I also think well you're also a rage monster as we are seeing here on this episode today Terrence what Terrence Stamp brings to Superman to either cut yeah is he's the man is unbelievable to me it is there maybe you could say certainly Michael Shannon played the character again and brought something very specific but that fine grain combination of British upscale arrogance a kind of very entrancing bizarre beauty you know he's a historically like a very handsome like attractive swinging 60s actor but getting into his 40s and 50s that's a very we don't see that look too often now?

1:42:14The like, the full beard and mustache that is manicured in such a way to make him seem like an evil magician? He looks Kryptonian. He looks like a guy from an evil guy from another realm. He's fantastic. He holds those movies together in so many ways. I think you made a strong enough case. I don't really agree with it, but I also, we're giving each other things here. I appreciate it. Thank you. I doubt what you had to say. Now, do you think that, so the Donner cut would go four. Do you think that the Lester cut is superior to James Gunn's Superman. This one is like a tie for me. And this is where I would open up the negotiation a little bit.

1:42:50But I think it says a lot that this new movie is already in this pantheon. I don't think it's as good as Superman 2. It's not. That's fine. So it's not. But that's no knock to this movie. Yeah. I never was going to put it at two. Superman, the movie, is... Superman the movie is going to be at number one for me. It is. I mean, I don't think there's a lot of debate on that. Superman 2 is probably better. Better than the original? Then what are we... You're ranking at number one, then. Okay, so let me tell you. Now, as a... You guys have to understand what I'm doing here. Okay. We're ranking the movies.

1:43:34I'm not ranking the movies... This is what it's like in the Jets draft room every year, by the way. This is their war room, and this is why we keep fucking up. I'm not ranking the movies strictly on quality. Why not? I'm not ranking them because I think that's, I think, honestly, that's too subjective. Art is subjective, man. I know. That's why if you're going to rank something, then you rank it across a litany of different criteria and not just the thing that you like the most. I just fundamentally disagree with this. I mean, I'm just being for real. In the fiber of my being, I disagree with this.

1:44:09I just, you don't. It's been too long since I've seen you two together like this. You like something. I like something. You have a bunch of different inputs. Yes. I have a bunch of different inputs. I can recognize that something is the best, and I don't like it as much. What's more arrogant, thinking you have the power to see objectively or only using your own subjective point of view to evaluate? I would argue that subjectivity is all we got, especially when it comes to something like a movie or a piece of music. Spoken like a real fake news journalist. So when I watch Superman 2, man, the movie has respect.

1:44:49The movie has, Lex is in this. Yeah. And it has the super criminals, right? It has Zod in them. There's more happening there. Lois and Superman, what's going on between them is just way, way more interesting. The first one is delightful and it's very formative. And it's like, oh my God, they're flying. And it's like all of that. She's in trouble. She is like another little nemesis to me. Superman loses his powers. He has to use his brain to reverse the fucking thing. There's just so much happening in Superman 2 that if I look at it as a movie, it's better than the original. The original is, it's a more important film.

1:45:33It's the number one film. But the sequel is better. It's better. The original one's better. It is better. As I was watching Superman 2, I did have the thought and the Donner cut. There's one thing in particular I need Van's opinion on, which is Superman in the Lester cut getting together with Lois after losing his powers. Superman in the Donner cut fully empowered Superman. How are you feeling about the Clark-Lois-Superman dynamic, physiologically speaking? You know, like, what do you think is the, like, how realistic is this whole situation? I like it powered up. You do? Yeah, just be, you can be gentle.

1:46:08like he don't move around fast going crazy doing everything else you see him running to his mom you know how to control it he could control it there is the the faded long running question of the super sperm sure i mean what do we do with kevin smith like you know this is a super sperm i mean i don't know if you can really control i don't want to get into the whole thing but i don't know if you can control what happens the actual you know what do you mean well i don't what happens well i don't know if you could control that part if it's going you know seems It's like an important part. If there's an exit wound or something like that.

1:46:40I don't know if you can control that. But the other stuff, it seems like you should be able to control. It's fine. I liked it. I think it's cool. It's fine. You heard it here first. Van Lathan likes it powered up. Yeah. I think that this is a fairly simple Superman 2, Superman the movie. Okay. I'm cool with that. Your passion is beautiful. and back me into a corner Superman 1 is the clear answer yeah but it just it establishes and accomplishes so many of the things that are so essential to upending some of those things in 2 and I think you know the point also the idea of the way that 2 ends is just not very satisfactory whereas the way that 1 ends to me the first time you see it is very exciting and very because it's heartbreaking to watch Lois die totally it's devastating as a small kid I was like this cannot be happening so I I'm I'm really curious to see where Superman 2025 sets five years from now okay we're getting close to five years from the Batman and here we are on this panel saying yeah is it a little overrated now I think it's pretty great well I I don't know that it's it's funny because I said what I said earlier and I with the Dark Knight Rises because I think both movies are aging pretty well the Batman for me when I first watched it, it was like, man, this movie is long.

1:48:08He's walking very slowly. Like there's, you know, he is, he's taking his time. He's treating Alfred like shit. You can't brew fast. You know what I mean? He's the world's greatest detective, not the world's greatest marathon runner. I get it. But, I watch that movie a lot more now. And I think, this is gonna sound stupid, the Penguin reignited my interest in all the other things that I had. It deepened the world and was, it grieves the entry point for me in that movie. Now, man, the end of that movie, there's a lot that happens in that film. Like that movie goes on and on and on and on. Yeah. It actually kind of has a similar Dark Knight Rises energy to the conclusion where I'm like, why is this fight happening in the rafters of this political convention where there's a flood?

1:48:55Like I probably have to revisit. I will say my version of returning to the movie is just watching the Paul Dano, no, no, no meme over and over again. Whenever watching sports. Whenever I'm watching a team I care about, that's what I think of. I feel we've done well. I think so as well. I think we nailed it. I'm going to recite these rankings for us. Number 11, Justice League, directed by Joss Whedon. Number 10, Superman Returns, which I didn't think going into this exercise we all would have been so roundly against, and I would have disliked as much as I did. But it's nice to hear that we could at least agree that it doesn't work.

1:49:32Number 9 is Man of Steel. Number eight is Batman versus Superman, Dawn of Justice. Number seven, Superman IV, The Quest for Peace. Number six, Zack Snyder's Justice League, The Snyder Cut. Number five, Superman III. Number four, Superman II, The Donner Cut. Number three, Superman, 2025. Number two, Superman II. And number one, Superman from 1978. What is showing for Superman III? Just like by default ends up at number five. Pretty good outcome. Yeah. It's a pretty good Richard Pryor performance. It's a pretty good Richard Pryor performance, and it has some really good moments, man. The cyborg sister thing is fucking ridiculous.

1:50:12That's so stupid, bro. It was stupid to me when I was a kid, by the way. Yeah. Didn't make any sense, but Superman fighting himself. Evil, dirty Superman. Superman, oil tanker Superman. Yep. Superman hitting on... It's got a lot of cool, good stuff. I love when Superman saves Richard Pryor from a pile of rubble by dapping him up. Yeah. It's like the healing power of daps. By the way, we didn't talk about how Pryor got in that movie, which is he just went on like the Dinah Shore show and was like, can I see Superman? I love that movie. And then Alexander Salkin was like, we should get Richard Pryor in this movie.

1:50:45Yeah. It'd be nice if things worked that way still. It's good on this podcast. Van, is there any movie you want to be in? It's very funny that you would say that. Just guys, stay tuned. Now look. Whoa. Now that's a tease. I'm serious. Stay tuned. Now, Pryor is also, we didn't talk that much about Richard Pryor. him with the skis Superman's a bad mother he's he is he adds a lot to the film definitely he adds a lot to the film very funny I feel pretty good about what we've done here now you can find this ranking and all of the rankings on this show on our Letterboxd account which is at the big pick where's the group chat Letterboxd account I ask you we don't have one yet I gotta get those guys on actually Justin's pretty active on Letterboxd well you guys grind so much tape too I feel like can you log the tape it's a great question You should speak to Letterboxd about this.

1:51:34Does Hornet's Blazers, like, is that registerable in Letterboxd? I don't know. It might qualify as a TV program. Where's the Midnight Boys? We need a Letterboxd. I got my own Letterboxd. Do you? What? I do. I have a Letterboxd. I don't think I understand how to use Letterboxd, though. Did you follow anyone? Well, there's no 12-point scale on Letterboxd. You followed me? I followed you. It's a 12-point scale of a midnight meeting. That's what I'm saying. Preparatory, by the way. Explain to people the second apron. Just real quick. All the rules of the second apron? people are confused. I would say Man of Steel went over the second apron.

1:52:07Like, whatever they paid Costner, it was a lot. They're not going to be able to make any one-for-one trades for a while. That's why they had to blow it up. Like, they ultimately got stuck. I've been trying to explain this to my friends. Like, my friends will be like, why are they just going? I'm like, bro, nobody has any money to get the second apron and all of that. And they're like, I don't like the NBA no more, man. It didn't stop the Knicks from signing Gershon Yabaselli. Yeah, huge signing, honestly. I'm pretty excited about that. Is Valachunas going overseas? Depends on if you ask him or ask the Denver Nuggets.

1:52:37He would like to go to Europe for a while. We'll see if that happens or not. Has a take ever taken more of an L than your Jokic take from the early days on the Bill Simmons podcast? That was wrong, man. Look, okay. So let me put this into context real quick. Nah, because I'm probably still wrong. So let me tell you what triggered me about this. Bill said during that time, that he thought that Jokic was as good as Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. That's what he said. All right? That's two, three years ago. Yeah. And I'm like, you can't say that somebody is as good as Magic Johnson or Larry Bird unless they win a bunch of NBA championships, right?

1:53:18Yeah. That has to be a thing. And then Bill outed me for some reason. He was so pissed off that he outed me on Twitter about this whole thing. and sicked all the ringer people on me. We on group tests and Bill goes, yo man, Jokic is... And look, you know what? Now it turns out that Jokic might be as good as those guys. He might be the same. But you couldn't say anything, is all I was saying. It was too early. Right, but... Do you, as a ball-knower, agree that he is in league with Magic and Bird? He's one of the best players of all time. It's just a matter of what you prioritize as far as the titles, the individual production, all that stuff.

1:53:57What do you prioritize? Yeah, see, don't do that. Hold on, did you see what he just did? What did I do? Don't do that. What did I do? No, I'm asking, he asked you a question about it, and you were like, depends, depends, depends. Who do you think is better? Out of, like, subjective, be subjective. Don't do that. No, no, no. Like, who do you think is better? Yeah. Bird, Magic, Jokic. Give it now. Here's the answer. I wasn't born when they were in their prime. I'm not qualified to answer that question. If you want me to compare Jokic to LeBron I can do that LeBron's better LeBron's better than Jokic He's a better player Yeah If you want me to compare like Stefan Jokic We're going to have that conversation But like I don't feel qualified to get into The Kareems and the Larrys And the Magics In incredible detail Way to wriggle out This is what I'll say Like Jokic Yabusele is better than all of them Jokic God willing Jokic all time great All time great I think the question that really That you guys should do on group chat That really gets the people going Yeah is Jokic better than Shaq all time?

1:54:58I heard you addressing this. That's a good conversation. That's a good one. Yeah. Because that gets the group chat, my group chat, my friends on fire. Because one of my boys, Ryan, our most dedicated basketball knowledge guy, he says it's over. He says Jokic is better. And everybody else just goes nuts. I will say, I have still never seen anything, though, like the first six years of Shaq in professional sports. Where I was like, anything could happen at any given moment. The like breaking the backboard and pulling the rim down thing when that was happening, not just shattering the backboard, which we saw a few times growing up, but him pulling the entire stanchion to the ground.

1:55:38Yeah. It was like watching Superman play basketball. And then he, of course, was Steel. He was. Why didn't we rank Steel? We should have put Steel in there. That's a Superman movie. Yeah. I guess it is. I guess it's a Superman movie. How did we get here? through meandering the five minutes of NBA talk. There you go. We forgot about Steel. Steel would be third overall? Yeah, probably so. Shaq, great actor. Great actor, dominant player. Very good. Love it. Extremely good rapper. I saw him live. Jokic can only do one thing and that's basketball. That's a good point. So who's a better human being?

1:56:10Shaquille O 'Neal or Nikola Jokic? I would much rather be Shaq and I think a lot of people know why. But it... Shaq gets to it. Whatever. I think we got to end the podcast. Yeah, let's end the podcast. thanks to all Bruce and Jack Sanders for his work on this episode listen to Rob Mahoney on a myriad of podcasts whatever you like et cetera Prestige TV the Zach Lowe podcast yeah yeah now and again what else the Bill Simmons podcast definitely from time to time what else are you getting on these days I'm coming for Chris's Head as the third chair of the big picture oh there we go wow so Chris boy there's a little talk on the streets about the CR Mahoney CR you might be what is that talk the Anthony Edwards to CR's you might be the Anthony Edwards to CR's LeBron I don't even know what that comparison might be the young pup that's pushing the old master wow that's what some people on the streets are saying that's all I'm saying many people are saying yeah Van Latham Midnight Boy is higher learning the Ryan Russell podcast listen to that episode it's insane what else Prestige TV for the Bears I'm everywhere like whenever you want to piss people off just put my name in the podcast and see what they say that's just definitively not true thanks for listening watching later this week a new 25 for 25 oh it's a movie whose title I will not reveal goodbye

1:57:51Thank you.