The Top 10 Garbage Scorsese Movies and ‘The Alto Knights’

27:46The movie needs some of that life. It needs... Well, because the Costello side of it is essentially a guy watching TV. I don't really understand making Costello the center of this story. Because Costello is Ace Rothstein from Casino without Vegas. I mean, he is like a kind of diplomat leader. You know, he's somebody who is willing to put himself before Congress. Who's sort of like the gentleman chap of the mafia. Yeah, and he's installed, in the, I believe, in the history of the mafia. I think the movie kind of makes it sound like he took it from Vito, but in fact, like he was installed when Lucky Luciano fled to Italy.

28:20Yes, and Vito had gone to prison. So Vito did a stint in prison, which is the sort of like engine of the movie is that Vito disappears for a while and when he returns, he wants his cornerback, so to speak, and he doesn't get it. The movie, I think, is like a fun little portal into a period of history that I don't know how much of this you've read about or care about. We've read about it a lot. Growing up in New York, especially the sort of latter stages of this story particularly leading to Vinny Chin the Cosmo Jarvis character who went on to become an iconic staple of New York tabloids because he was as they very briefly mentioned at the end of this movie pretending to be crazy for like 15 years on the streets of New York wearing a bathrobe and muttering to himself to avoid being arrested for being the head of the New York mafia like how many hours a day do you have to commit to that performance?

29:08Well you don't have like 24-7. He was on the post every day. He was on the cover like eight times a year. Is it like, okay, it's 11, I gotta put the bathrobe on outside, and then you go back in. Can I ask you something? Maybe, yeah, sure. Because I don't know as much about the history of the mafia, or, you know, I haven't done my independent research. What is it that leads both of you to spend hours at a time doing independent? That's really interesting. I mean, crime in general is really interesting, especially crime that has kind of like ornate construction and the mafia has all these codes and these conceits and this way that they live by and I got into it because of movies.

29:48I got into it and then The Sopranos. Like, the movies show you these things. Also, I've told this story before. I think I told it on the Goodfellas podcast but I grew up across the street from a really, really kind guy named Dominic Natale. He was our across-the-street neighbor and his wife Angela and their daughter married Nick Pelleggi's uncle. So, or excuse me, married Nick Pelleggi's nephew. So I met Nick Pelleggi when I was a kid. I was surrounded by Italian-American culture. I was, Dom and Angela babysat me until I was 10 years old. And so like the kind of like Mambo Italiano, you know, Goodfellas, Scorsese culture was just kind of a part of my life when I was a young kid.

30:31And my dad, of course, was a cop. So my dad would go over to Dom's house and they would start talking about this stuff. And Dom was like, a real Italian guy and my dad was a real Irish cop. And I could feel like the friction between those two experiences. And so it naturally like makes you curious about things. The problem with like, this is the ultimate, like could have been an email movie though. You know, like we don't really like, there's no, there's no dramatic dynamic. Just to answer your question, like I also like grew up when the mafia was still somewhat present in South Philadelphia. And it had, you know, if you watch Irishman, you'll see a lot of the Philadelphia stuff.

31:06I guess it's just like an Atlanta thing there was always rumors of the mayor why are you not more interested in Jeezy and Big Meech and the track you know one of the problems with this film though is that it is essentially covering the ground that some of the greatest American films ever made has already covered so the Kefauver hearings are dramatized in Godfather 2 you know like the Appalachian meeting is referenced in Goodfellas. It's nice to see it on screen here. But this essentially functions as a prequel to The Irishman, something that happens in between moments of Henry Hill's youth and adulthood in Goodfellas.

31:50That's right. It's kind of the parts they skip in Goodfellas. And is essentially Godfather 2. Vito, Don Bartini in Godfather is based on Vito. Frank Costello is one of the inspirations for Vito Corleone. We got it. And it's not like, oh man maybe Godfather 2 and Goodfellas and Irishman left some meat on the bone here and one of the things I found a little bit melancholy about watching this movie is I remember all of the Irishman stuff being like we wanted to tell this story one more time with the wisdom of age and I got Joe De Niro gets Joe Pesci to do Irishman Joe Pesci's like we've done this we've done this I don't want to do the mafia thing again he's like yeah but like this is about these guys is looking back on the end of their lives and thinking about the violence and the destruction.

32:35Was it all worth it? What was it for? And it's kind of like, it's like, oh, and then you just did it again. Yeah. You know, because you could or because you had bills to pay or whatever. And it's a little bit tough. The Irishman is the signature old man mafia movie. Most of these movies that are great tend to end with people in middle age either getting shot or sent to witness protection. and also crucially directed by Martin Scorsese or Francis Ford Coppola yeah it's a tough balance there Barry Levinson as far as I know is also not Italian American not that really necessarily matters you didn't have to be Italian American to make this movie great but it's just kind of a it's just a footnote movie and a story of a studio to me that's really what it amounts to is we're in this period with Warner Brothers where they're taking some big chances on high level auteurs like Paul Thomas Anderson like Bong Joon-ho, like Maggie Gyllenhaal.

33:28And they're also, you know, this has been described in reports as kind of a favor to the studio chief for his friends. I don't know. You know, I don't want to be ageist, but I'm going to just talk about this very quickly. So Barry Levinson is 82. De Niro is also in his 80s. Dante Spinati is in his 80s. Nicholas Plegi, I think, is 94. these are wildly accomplished legends of movies they are huge huge figures Dante Spanatti shot in Manhunter Nick Pelleggi wrote fucking Goodfellas they're in the hall of fame forever this is not what I'd be doing in my 80s if I did that I just wouldn't be doing this I don't know what I'd be doing not working that hard this question looms over this podcast of what you will be doing You know, and you always say this, you know, that at some point you believe you will reach a wine country.

34:28Like an emotional mental state where you're like, I'm out and I'm going to wine country. And I think I wonder if that's true. So, OK, let me pose this to you both. We don't have to make this a psychological examination because I want to know genuinely what you two think. I think you do things like to a much lesser extent podcasting, but make art, make this work for Hollywood. because you like money and you particularly like sort of acclaim and attention and the energy that comes with a new project. Right? Is that fair to say? Is there anything else that you get out of it? That's exactly why I think they did this.

35:04And is that what it is? Because that's not something I'm addicted to. Particularly when I'm 60, I'm good. I'll be completely candid that there are elements of this movie that make me feel like a professional group of people maybe took it over to just finish it and get, here's what we shot and here's what I did. And now we're just going And a lot of the like, here's archival footage of a big band performance. And you're just like, why is this happening? They're not watching a big band. There's no characters taking part in this. It's just an interstitial moment that feels like it was stapled into the movie because they're like, well, here's, we have this part and this part and this part.

35:39And with all due respect to the incredible achievements of these guys, I don't really feel like this has a lot of authorship, obviously, attached to it. So I do think it's what you said, which is like these, I think it's, it's very addictive and very difficult to be like, what I want is to fade into obscurity. You fast forwarded past money. I didn't, I said that. I know, but it's like money and, but I, you know. I think the third option is obviously like a creative act is energizing in and of itself. Yeah, there's people out there that we know are working. They're working to stay alive. Yeah. Like I get it.

36:14I'm not, I'm not trying to judge. I think when it's iterative, it feels a little strange where it's like for Robert De Niro, the signature mafia actor of his time, to go back to the well at this stage, even though it does put him on the poster in a big movie that gets a wide release from a major studio, it just kind of feels like a waste of time. And we know him to be a very adventurous actor, although I know he likes money too. So I guess I'm just kind of turning it over in my head because as I'm watching the movie, I was like, it is reflected in the story. Like when we see Frank Costello at the end, when we have these characters who are thinking back on like, why did I do this?

36:49What was it worth? It's much more penetrating in the Irishman, those big questions. But it's a part of the Alto Knights too. Yeah. Can I, so I asked my dad, the number one Barry Levinson fan on this earth to go see this film, which he did. And he was disappointed. He sent me an email with his thoughts, but this is the last sentence of his email. He said, for an older viewer, my dad is younger than any of the people we've been discussing. Is your dad retired? And he is retired. He's retired. But this is his perspective for an older viewer. This is the way the world ends experience. This actor starred in Mean Streets and this director put homicide together, question mark.

37:28And now we're doing this. So that's pretty depressing. Yeah, it is depressing. But at the same time, I don't know. I really want to. I'm personally really resistant to doing a sky is falling thing. but it is it is hard to not acknowledge that like is like this is what we're gonna like what we're cashing in like political capital to make and this is the thing you're forcing someone to like green light and I mean it was put out like with hardly any fanfare it was it died on the vine why don't you share your viewing experience uh god awful 11 a.m a man I think FaceTimed the entire film to his friend and it was me and just one other guy and we were in like deep seats.

38:14So it's like, it wasn't like bothering me, but every once in a while I would hear on the phone someone be like, damn. I saw it at 3.30 p.m. at an AMC and it was me and four other singles. Four men and myself in the Prime Theater at the Americana right next to the IMAX. To watch listeners. Yeah. A lot of single men interested in crime and storytelling. It was quiet. There was no FaceTiming in the room, but there was no energy. Six or seven people in mind, which was noon on a Friday. And there might have been another woman. I do think that she... So two women have seen this movie. Really understandably checked her phone at some point.

39:03But, you know, who among us? and I wouldn't say that like the audience was really involved in what was going on on screen. You know, there wasn't like a lot of energy surging towards the screen, if you will. Yeah, this is a depressing movie. I don't want to draw too many conclusions about what you're describing because on the flip side, Warner Brothers is making the PTA movie, did make Mickey 17. It is doing all this other stuff that is going to be considered very risky and then it's going to come out and not be financially successful and people are going to stroke their chins and be like, I told you so.

39:34and then we're never going to get any good movies. So if this is the price to pay for five or four. Is this the price to pay? Have we just arrived at this? It used to be, in Hollywood, it used to be this. It used to be, I'll give one for my buddy so that the other person can have a shot. Now it's, you have to make five IP-driven projects and maybe we'll make one cool movie. So to me, this actually does feel like an old-fashioned version. I mean, even adjusted for inflation, the way that budgets seem to be expanding right now, which is why I think there's so much pocket watching of Warner Brothers is that if it's like just if one battle after another is a$70 million movie or a$60 million movie, everybody's just like, like, what a great, what a great thing.

40:14Right. Like, are we just not adjusting for triple digit budgets being what we need to like attach to any film now? I try to not spend too much time talking about budgets on the show because they're all, none of them are honest. Yeah. And then the marketing and the, yeah. Yeah. how much money is allocated to each film. Exactly. And so sometimes you'll see a movie and it'll say it was a$30 million movie, but like, Onora's awards campaign spent more on the movie. So, and like, whatever PTA gets to spend, I don't care. It's like, he's been making movies on smaller budgets his entire career, so it doesn't mean a lot to me.

40:49The idea of like, somebody like Bong or Ryan Coogler getting big budgets, I think it's just straight up good. Just like, you're talking about filmmakers in the prime of their career who have earned the right by dint of their success to get to do more. and whether they work or not is up for debate, obviously. This one just feels like closing business at the end of a run. Yeah. You know, like this is maybe the last movie that Levinson will make. It's probably not the last thing De Niro will do. He's on a fucking streaming show on Netflix this year too. But... Oh yeah, had that pan out. Did you finish it?

41:18Not great. You want me to spoil it? Yeah. Spoilers for zero day. Spoilers for zero day. He is an ex-president who is now investigating the cyber attack on the country and it turns out that the cyber attack was partially orchestrated by his daughter, a very AOC-coded congresswoman, played by Lizzie Kaplan. And it was to shake America out of its stupor. Oh, okay. Wow. So what's Bobby going to do with that info? I can't remember the exact code of the film. Okay. I think Angela Bassett remains in office. Okay. I mean, this is just, you know. President Angela Bassett. President Angela Bassett and Lizzie Kaplan is the daughter of a former president?

41:59Yeah. Lizzie Kaplan and Matthew Lutin orchestrate a cyber attack. Wow. Okay. This does not make me excited about aging. That's just kind of... Is there anything that does make you excited about aging? I don't know. When you talk about the life of, you know, when I'm done and I can just like hit Napa or whatever. Late 50s in wine country is where I'm headed. Yeah. That sounds great. But if like, as you know... Never stop making content. If this is how the world ends, as my dad put it, I don't know. I will be following Robert De Niro's lead where if necessary, I will podcast with another man played by me in full makeup.

42:39And I'll, we'll just argue about Severn season four, which will probably have come out by the time I'm. 28 years from now. I was wondering if you were going to make me really belly laugh. You just did CR. Who, who would be the best person to wear CR old man makeup? No, that's me. I'm going to have Jack shoot we're going to shoot this side of me and then I'm going to shoot that side of me I don't need anything and then we're you in the corner just being like so what's happening here Christopher Nolan shooting a knight here honest question I could not ask Chris a more honest question this is direct if you could replace Andy Greenwald on the watch with AI Chris Ryan so that you could talk to yourself I would never do it it's why I love potting with you guys I love potting with Andy it's the chemistry with you guys it's not replicable.

43:27You know? I'll probably quit when you guys are done. You'll quit when we're done? Yeah, I'm not going to just start up again with like a bunch of other people, right? What do you mean? You got to bring in a bunch of 26-year-olds to fluff you. Placate your ego.

43:45Garbage Scorsese. Mm-hmm. This is interesting. You know, Martin Scorsese is really in the news right now in a couple of ways. One, he makes, I'm sure people have seen if they've seen the trailer, a very funny cameo. very funny cameo in the studio, the new Apple TV Plus series from Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg that comes out on Wednesday. I would say his single greatest acting performance. He's so funny in the show. You haven't had a chance to see this yet, right? No, I'm very excited. Perhaps Taxi Driver, but he's, you know. He's good in a lot of movies, honestly, but he's very good in this one.

44:13This is a TV show. And then also, you know, very quietly the movie Magazine Dreams was released over the weekend. I don't, you guys haven't had a chance to see it. I haven't, no. So I saw it at Sundance two years ago, maybe even more than that. I can't recall. This is a new movie from, starring Jonathan Majors, directed by Elijah Bynum, who will come up again in this conversation. And after Jonathan Majors got into some trouble and was eventually convicted of domestic violence charges, the movie very much went away. But when it came out at Sundance, I saw it. I think I gave it a pretty negative review on the podcast, but his performance is amazing in the movie.

44:47But the movie is just straight up what if taxi driver but a bodybuilder. it's about like a sort of deeply unbalanced violent individual who's motivated by this one goal who can't see the world around him and goes to crazy ends the movie is hard watch no fun you know ripping off stuff that we've seen before but like it is a prime example I think of not just the mafia being a part of what does it mean to be garbage Scorsese you know that certainly Goodfellas is probably the a movie that looms largest over a generation of film directors who saw it and sought to bring that energy. Right. And if you just take a movie with like a bunch of young, cool guys, and you put a couple of needle drops from the 50s and the 70s and say, go, then you're doing Garbage Scorsese.

45:35But then there's other versions of it, you know, that Raging Bull, Taxi Driver, and... King of Comedy. King of Comedy for sure. And, you know, The Departed and all the way through are huge influences. and not just the crime stuff specifically, but the tonality, I think, of his movies. Right. The like sick sense of humor, the slickness through which he tells it. The self-loathing. Yes, a lot of inner hatred, a lot of like rejection of where you come from, but an inescapability of that identity. There are some Scorsese movies that I think don't really apply. I don't see a lot of like Age of Innocence, silence.

46:08Their loss. I agree. More people should be watching silence to this day. Little Women is the garbage Scorsese of Age of Innocence?

46:21I don't know. There's not a lot of self-loathing in that. Also, you know, that movie does feature more women than your average Scorsese movie, which is not a shot at Scorsese. And he has written some, you know, he has directed some great women parts and performances. But like, that's still about a man, you know, not longing. I think he's directed more women to Oscars than men. Yeah, I mean, it's just the woman-ness. And again, there's not as much self-hatred in Little Women. What else do you think of when you think of this kind of a movie? well uh i think for garbage genre pods that we do it's useful probably to relate the film that you're talking about the garbage movie that you're talking about to one of the original texts so that was sort of my operating philosophy in my selections i did want to ask you guys whether or not you had any trouble picking movies because you couldn't tell where garbage scorsese ended and garbage tarantino began um i'm glad you asked i made a long list and there is bunched in the long list from 92 through 99 there's a lot of is this pulp fiction or is this goodfellas yeah and there is a smashing together you know like they're the kind of like faux tarantinos the like things to do in denver when you're deads also have a ton of scorsese in them yeah um i think the scripts are usually very tarantino and the filmmaking style is usually very scorsese so i think there is maybe more crossover right then maybe like there's more like pop culture references and there's more like guys sitting around a table like kind of discussing their version of the like a virgin lyrics or whatever.

48:08Exactly. But I think that I mean it goes back to the 80s. That's how I know that it's not just the Tarantino thing. I would say that a lot of I would say I leaned more contemporary films in my selections but I'm happy to jump in wherever. A lot of the 80s stuff that I wrote down are mostly good movies that bear a very strong Scorsese influence. So So, I mean, Scarface is, you know, obviously a huge, owes a debt to Scorsese and Coppola in many ways, even though it's made by one of their friends. And it's a Cuban Miami tale and not an Italian tale. But just like the energy, the violence, the quick cutting, the use of pop music and the score.

48:51And then like the Pope of Greenwich Village, Pritzy's Honor, Michael Cimino's Year of the Dragon. Mona Lisa Wall Street the Oliver Stone movie is very Scorsese you know very different from Platoon you know Married to the Mob Black Rain these are all movies that are like slick crime focused movies that have some laughs have some extravagant violence but a lot of those movies are really good so like they're not garbage you know they're just influenced by Martin Scorsese stuff. It's also interesting that Scorsese's style has evolved over the years. I mean, he still obviously has a style that he uses, I think, more for films like Silence that's a little bit more contemplative.

49:40But even The Wolf of Wall Street, Killers of the Flower, Moon, Irishman, even Departed, I would even say. He started messing around with this where it's taking elements of what we associate with Scorsese's style and tweaking it to the point where it's almost avant-garde, starting scenes, restarting scenes. Yes, the DJ effect of his movies. He's experimenting with himself. Like the music, using pop needle drops as an almost disorienting kind of like, we're going to run it backwards and then start it later in the song and then start it from the beginning. And he's kind of always messing around with what we expect, even though he delivers very reliable thrills.

50:20But I found that that whole thing, the fact that he has evolved so much in the last 15 years changed like how I looked at like. Yeah. It's hard to identify. And that is what makes him one of the greats and has been so rewarding about the last 15 years is that he is very much engaging with the types of movies that he makes and the idea of what a Scorsese is. And I do feel like when we are, when we make our garbage Scorsese list, it will be referencing the same movies that he has basically been referencing in the last 15 years of work which is you know kind of ends with Goodfellas and I guess Casino but like you know here's the question like is Casino eligible?

51:09You know? Is The Departed eligible? Because in a way they are like Scorsese plays himself but they are and it's like unfair because both of those movies are good and I think that there is something interesting about Scorsese like working with his own genre conventions or whatever but like it's kind of what we mean Casino is the more interesting example to me The Departed is like that's a script that is an adaptation of an Asian film that has gone went through like many different iterations and he kind of brought his very that style that Chris is talking about where he's just like chopping up his own shit it feels like a little bit it's Boston you know it's like a little bit different Casino is like these are kind of the same characters in a lot of ways it's the same arc it's the same you know the other thing that a lot of garbage Scorsese movies have is narration bad narration historically so I think that's kind of an inspired call I think there are some movies that predate Casino but even when Casino was released I remember this as a teenager they were like this again he's going back to this well which I think is a little silly it'd be like John Carpenter made another scary thriller?

52:17Like, sometimes this is what you do. You basically needed five years to kind of separate the two pieces and be able to appreciate Casino on its own merits rather than as an extension of... And in the same way now, you can kind of look back at... But for the record, no one will ever be able to appreciate your thoughts about Casino because they were not properly recorded on the rewilds of Wilson. That was really tough. I was working with Brian Wilson that day and he just decided not to mic me up. But you can look back at Goodfellas Casino... an Irishman as his Godfather trilogy. Yes. And it has its own prequel with Mean Streets.

52:51You know, it's great. Marty. Where do you start this? Because I like what Amanda said because he knows it's an amusing wrinkle to the list. I'll start with my most, should I just throw one out there? Yeah. I can start with my most recent selection. Bike riders. Also on mine. Undeniably. A chock full of needle drops. A somewhat ironically detached narration. spanning decades or at least several years of a subculture featuring some very obvious main character being pulled in two different directions by his domestic life and his criminal life. Just a lot of the hallmarks of it. I think Jeff Nichols based this film off of a book of photographs, but filled it in with basically what if Goodfellas on bikes.

53:47And I mean that as a compliment. I did enjoy Bike Riders. Do you think we should work backwards in time so that we get to the early 90s? If you'd like to. Sure. Would you like to nominate one? Well, Bike Riders was on my list. I don't, I mean, then I have to, I have a 2019 nominee. Yeah, that's great. Does that count? Yeah, of course. And this was on your long list, but I do think Hustlers fits. You know, an Underworld in this case, case of a group of strippers in New York who are working together to, you know, illegally obtain some, you know, money, but also like there's some righteousness on their side.

54:32Like weird framing device that doesn't like totally work, but it's not like quite narration. Is it like the interview with the police department? Yes, it's a, no, no, no. It's Jessica Pressler, the New York Magazine journalist who wrote the, yeah, is like doing the interview. That's right. Yeah. So it's not quite narration, but again, like someone after the fact, the main person who gets swept up in the case. And needle drops of a kind. Oh, yeah. Fiona Apple's criminal? Sure. And like, you know, and a period piece of sorts. Yeah. Fun movie. That's a good one. There's some obvious ones that I don't want to, like, we could do Joker because Joker is like such an overt homage.

55:17I have one for you that sort of riffs off of Joker a little bit. I have two films from 2017. Okay. One is You Were Never Really Here, which is Lin Ramsey's, I would say, variation on Taxi Driver. In fact, it is what if the overhead slow-mo shot in Taxi Driver was an entire film? psychologically, emotionally. Joaquin Phoenix plays this avenging angel assassin who is essentially going out trying to free people from child trafficking until he finds himself at the center of a political conspiracy. And it's actually a pretty disturbing film and a very prescient one of where fever dreams were going in American culture.

56:02But it doesn't necessarily feature the frenetic Scorsese that we're talking about but is certainly it's the Paul Schrader side of Scorsese I would say. Yeah that's an interesting one. I saw that cited in a lot of places as sort of like Scorsese-esque because of that taxi driver construction. Really interesting movie I think Lynn Ramsey I don't think she's made a movie since this movie. She's got one coming. But she has one coming Die My Love with Robert Pattinson and Jennifer Lawrence later this year. I will nominate Hot Summer Nights. which is a 2017 movie as well, directed by Elijah Bynum, who made Magazine Dreams.

56:39You and I saw this movie at South by Southwest, Chris. And have you ever seen this movie? No. This is one of the earliest films starring Timothee Chalamet. He plays a young man spending his summer at Cape Cod and getting into trouble. It's a little bit of like, it's Cape Cod Goodfellas in a lot of ways. First half of Goodfellas. Teenage kid, starting to deal drugs, starting to get in too deep, falls in love with a girl played by Micah Monroe. Thomas Jane and Emery Cohen as high-level dirtbags. I don't think this movie's good at all. But... Did we say that when we walked out? We were like, damn.

57:18I think... I don't think so. I don't think it was the... No, but you know what it was? I think it was like... It wasn't the long shot effect. When we first saw this movie, I think we both walked out. It's like three hours long. It's pretty long. I don't know what the final cut was because I haven't seen it since we saw it. We walked out of this movie, we were like, it's almost uncomfortable how much like... of the stuff that we are into is in that movie. Well, that that's definitely true. I think it's very much like guy who watched boogie nights, but didn't realize Paul Thomas Anderson was ripping off Martin Scorsese.

57:48That's kind of how it feels, you know, like snap zooms and tracking shots and bad narration and all of these kind of signatures. And like a young guy who's kind of innocent, but kind of a dirt bag, but like you're rooting for him, but he's not doing the right thing. And if only he could just get his shit together. but um it's interesting to watch Timmy if people haven't seen this at this stage of his career without like a really strong guiding hand because his performance is like a little all over the place but it is exactly what I'm thinking of when I say Garbage Scorsese okay let's do some more what do you got?

58:20Oh me again? Yeah well okay I don't want to like now that we've introduced the chronological element I'm like oh am I gonna jump back you can go too far back okay it's fine you can be loose um you know this one is sort of obvious because there are many directors we love who are just like, well, now I'm going to do my gangster, like my movies. I love Barry Levinson. Yeah. So Ridley Scott has tried it several times, but American Gangster seems pretty like dead on in terms of you've got Denzel, you've got Russell Crowe as like as the cop, you know, they're like circling each other throughout the movie and also like our anticipation for like we really did think it was going to be Ridley Scott like finally made, you know, his version of a Martin Scorsese movie and then it was the garbage version.

59:08Yeah. Very affectionate about this movie. I completely agree with you. You know what I mean? It's like, it's not... We like all of the... It's very... I mean, it's a fucked up movie, so it's not cozy, but like, it is comforting that it hits all of the beats. Yeah. The worst part of this movie is the best part of the movie, which is the final 10 minutes when Crow and Denzel go toe-to-toe after Denzel's been arrested and they're spending time together and interacting. And you're like, why is the movie not these two guys interacting? There's like the heavyweight movie stars of their time. And so they like tease you out with that.

59:44Like it's meant to be like a heat kind of like wait for it, wait for it. But following Frank Lucas and following this kind of... 07? What was this? Yeah, 07. Is it 07? I thought it was older. Because I feel like this was this Indo-Country were the Brolin sons. Brolin is fantastic Brolin's death scene is incredible with the blood splattering on the shade only thing better is Idris fuck you gonna do friend that's become one of the great memes okay Chris you got another one yeah how about I'll throw a kind of out of this is the one I was thinking of where I was like I can't tell where Marty ends and Quentin begins is Observe and Report, which is a little bit of the crime Scorsese with the deluded clown Scorsese of King of Comedy.

1:00:41But it's Seth Rogen plays a mall cop, basically, who has big dreams of being a police officer. It's very uncomfortable, but very wild movie. Jody Hill, who's obviously in the Danny McBride, David Gordon Green school, made this. This was, is this the last feature he made? No, he made the, I think the way of the white-tailed deer. Oh, that's right. With Brolin. Yeah. That's right. Which I also saw at South by Southwest. Yeah. Yeah. So, this is one that I was thinking of because it combined a couple of different kinds of Scorsese gestures and also has a lot of needle drops and fun filmmaking stuff.

1:01:23Very funny Anna Faris performance in that movie. Hmm. I think the, I think the, one of the, there's two, I'm going to, I'm going to take two. There's two big dogs and we can talk about them if you've seen both of these movies. One is Blow, which is Ted Demme's 2001 film starring Johnny Depp about a drug trafficker who gets in way over his head. That is the most like, give me shelter, needle drop, rip off attempt. Ted Demme, director I like, late great director, co-creator of MTV Raps, among other things. and then Alpha Dog, which is one that occurred to me late, directed by Nick Cassavetes, John Cassavetes' son, that is about like some young kids who get in over their heads with a drug dealer and terrible things happen.

1:02:12I think Notable is maybe the first Justin Timberlake movie. Yeah, I was going to say that's the one with Justin Timberlake. That's Emile Hirsch is in this? It's Emile Hirsch. Ben Foster plays an absolutely crazy guy in this movie. Bruce Willis is in it. Amanda Seyfried, JT, Harry Dean Stanton, like a pretty sick cast. Yeah. But one of those movies that like, both of these movies, I know people love Blow because they saw it when they were nine or whatever, but it's like, it's not good. I'm sorry to tell you guys. Alpha Dog was announced as like a big event. And I remember sitting in theaters and being like, what?

1:02:43What is that? Why is this? Why do people love this? But same thing. Like a lot of setup, a lot of like groups of guys where like the trust starts to dissipate and things go wrong. And the energy seems really high until it all falls apart. It doesn't totally work. alpha dog no you must have been there as a JT fan yeah of course I was just more doing the math on how old Bobby was when he would have seen Blow and he was not old enough to you weren't nine when it came out so that's tough what year did it come out? 2001 I was yeah five five years old you see it in theaters at five? maybe but it probably blocked it out I think yeah five year old me wasn't ready for that can we put Casino on?

1:03:27Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Casino is a good call. Thank you.

1:03:3490s. I have, oh, well, I had two more 2000s. Fire away. Still 21st century ones. One is Guillaume Canet's Blood Ties. Wow. I've seen it. Clive Owen and Billy Crudup. Okay. Mila Coolis. Co-written by James Gray. And it was co-written by James Gray. Does it steal from any specific Scorsese film? Not necessarily as much as it feels like it is taking place in the neighborhood over from Mean Streets. It's set in 1974 in New York. And it's very James Gray. It's brothers and dads and lovers and, you know, religion and whether or not we can lead just lives or whatever. But vibe-wise, the filmmaking and the sort of, the scenery of it is just like, we should just make more Mean Streets.

1:04:24Like, there should just be more movies that are like adjacent to Mean Streets. so I had that it's a fascinating movie I've never talked to James about this one it's definitely like what if a French guy made Mean Streets including with French actors at times Marion Cotillard's in it yeah Marion Cotillard like trying real hard to not be Marion Cotillard and it's like doesn't totally come off you know Matthias Schoenart's also who's been known to play like a Brooklyn tough who's definitely just from Denmark you know doing his best to not be from Scandinavia he's in the Gandolfini with the drop the drop yeah I had to drop on this long list as well.

1:04:59Yeah. Blood Ties is fun. Blood Ties has an incredible soundtrack. Awesome. One of the great... What's the song that they use in the trailer? Oh my God, dude. It's so good. Well, Bad Girl by Lee Moses is the one that goes so hard. But there's Sam Cooke, Ace Frehley, Tommy James and the Shondells, Janice Ian. This is like, you know, Martin Scorsese, you see roulette on this one. It's a good call. You want to do another one or no? Oh, I was just going to say American Hustle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super garbage-y. Emphasis on the garbage-y. Really garbage. I just dislike this movie so much.

1:05:33But yeah, but yes. About people trying to come up in the world through ill-gotten means and ill-gotten ways. Big cocaine energy. A lot of cocaine energy. It feels kind of like 80s Scorsese right before and right after kind of getting clean. Kind of has a little bit of, I guess it's before Wolf of Wall Street, but that's a little New York, New York. where it's like way too slow but way too fast at the same time and a lot of VO lots of yeah voiceover that feels like it's stitching together fractured parts of a script again I stand by I love Amy Adams in that movie I think that's like one of her best performances everybody else feels like they're like just a little bit oh look Cooper is it very entertaining when Cooper like flips yeah that part is fun um gosh there's a lot I thought of running scared not the 80s version but the 2006 version starring the late Paul Walker.

1:06:27Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Which is a really cool movie with Vera Farmiga. Christopher McQuarrie's Way of the Gun. Oh. Which is his, I think his directorial debut after winning an Academy Award for The Usual Suspects, Ryan Phillippe and Benicio Del Toro. Yeah. Which is very... I feel like we could just Google Ryan Phillippe's, like, screen credits and then they all just get ported directly onto this list. There's a lot of Garber Scorsese, for sure. I mean, the first two movies from Guy Ritchie are undeniably a part of this. Yeah, Lock, Stock, and Snatch are both deeply... You think that those are more Scorsese than Tarantino?

1:07:02It's almost like... I think they're both. Yeah. Just like Way of the Gun, I think is both. I think Usual Suspects in its way is both. But the two that stick out to me the most, I don't know if you've seen these. I know you've seen at least one of them, maybe probably both of them. When I was... I'll tell the story. I played baseball in high school. Yeah. And... You didn't ump yourself, though. You separated those roles. That was for the little leaguers. Yeah. When I was a teenager, I was on the baseball team. Our coach was Rob Graziano. Yeah. You can imagine a Rob Graziano. Huge, huge fan of the films of Martin Scorsese.

1:07:41And, you know, he's a great coach, mentor to me, wonderful guy. And he put me on to a movie called Amongst Friends, which was made in 1993 and was directed by a guy named Rob Weiss. Here's the logline for the movie. Andy, Billy, and Trevor are three friends living the life of privilege on Long Island. Out of boredom, the inseparable trio are drawn into the action of the gangster criminal underworld inhabited by Andy's bookie grandfather. My coach, Graz, Mr. Graziano, was like, this is probably the best movie since Goodfellas. In 1993. In 1993. Okay, so I mean, that's like three years, but whatever.

1:08:22Not as long as you might think. But it's discussed at length in John Pearson's Spike Mike Slackers and Dykes. And it was a part of this wave of small crime movies that were made in the aftermath of not just Goodfellas, but Reservoir Dogs and all the early 90s movies. And so I saw it and I was like, this movie is incredible. I was like 11 when it came out. You finally felt seen. I did. I was like, I too can be a piece of shit in the criminal underworld as a child of privilege on Long Island. And I'm looking at it on Letterboxd right now. And it's only been watched by one mutual. Okay. Dave Weigel, the semaphore reporter.

1:09:02Oh, yeah. Who is a bit of a cinephile himself if you follow him on Letterboxd. And he's given it one star. Wow. That's the only person who's seen this movie. I've seen it. I just didn't log it. Do we have to go retroactively and log every movie we've ever seen? Almost every day I get somebody on social media being like, the feeling when I log a movie that Sean Fentasy has never seen. And it's like, it's like Roman Holiday or something. And I'm like, sir, I've seen Roman Holiday. So like somebody will at you and then, yeah. Like screenshot their letterbox and be like, you haven't seen this bro.

1:09:30And I'm like, come on guys. Like I didn't, I logged every movie I've ever seen. Who has time for that? Not me. You're not responding to them. No. Except for right now in this movie. I brought it up, which is shame on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Amongst Friends is one of those. And then the other one is Laws of Gravity, which is, I know is a CR classic. Just talked about this with the virtual price. That's right. So speak on it now. Well, I just, so Nick Gomez was this up and coming indie filmmaker in the 90s and was very much kind of like the other side of what Sean is talking about, which is like person with the camera, gets their friends together, makes a little crime movie for 50 ,000 bucks and gets it in festivals.

1:10:04And he went on to have a really cool career. He directed New Jersey Drive after this and worked in, on Homicide, Life on the Street. So it was like a very cool interview at the time. And when he made laws of gravity which is basically like early early incredibly attractive edi falco i just have to say yeah uh peter green as like the wild cat like i just got out of jail energy and then i can't adam i can't remember the guy's name is the sort of straight friend who's trying to keep it up yeah trying to keep it together um nick gomez made this and then like all the interviews is like what are you gonna do next what are you gonna do next and he's like well i'd love to do clockers i'd love Clockers is going to be like Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro, which is what it was originally going to be.

1:10:48And then it wound up being Spike Lee and Harvey Cattell and Spike Lee rewrote Richard Price's script. And Richard Price, he saw a lot of things in it that I did not. And he was very gentlemanly about it. Clockers is also on my long list, as is Nick Gomez's New Jersey Drive. You know, in the 90s, this is a real boom time. I have Donnie Brasco for that. Donnie Brasco is a huge one. Donnie Brasco directed by the Brit Mike Newell. Sure. Yeah. The Brit. Like in between. It's Four Weddings and a Funeral, right? Right. Yes. And then also Notting Hill. So that's like what he was. Yeah. He did do Four Weddings and a Funeral, right?

1:11:24I think so. Richard Curtis didn't do. He wrote it. He wrote it. Yeah. But he doesn't start. Yes. And then there's a bunch of more sort of more mainstream studio movies. I think way. Oh, huge debt. You mentioned Clockers. Get Shorty, which is an Elmore Leonard adaptation, but it's very like movie made for people who've seen all the Scorsese movies. Right. Paul Thomas Anderson's Hard Eight is undeniably influenced by a lot of these films. Like a blend of like an Altman and Scorsese movie. The Wachowskis Bound which we just mentioned on a future episode of this show. Spoiler. Or just a good tease.

1:11:59Okay. Suicide Kings. Yeah. Remember that movie? Sure do. Seemed like a very important movie at the time. Yeah. That's the other thing with the garbage Scorsese movies. When they hit you're like Yeah this is gonna be a new voice. And then it's not. Would you call Bronx Tale a Scorsese garbage Scorsese yeah old Chaz but it's I mean because that's De Niro one of only two movies directed by Robert De Niro can you name the other one The Good Shepherd that's right well Chris knows because he's been reading the CIA files on John F. Kennedy's assassination did you know that The Good Shepherd this was recently pointed out by Alex Ross Perry to me is entirely made up it's not based on anything yeah he's basically be a fictional character that goes through all the like sort of major, you know, eras of CIA.

1:12:47So when you wrote it, why did you write it that way? Did Steve's Alien write that? Who wrote that? I think so. I think that's correct. I didn't have any more older films. The last one that I had, the last one I had was Good Time. Safdie Brothers. Oh, yeah. It's a more contemporary film. It's a great example. Is it garbage-y? No, I think it's great. But I just wanted to throw it out there as like it has the It has the kinetic energy of Mean Streets. What about Smoke and Aces? Good Shepherd, just to save you guys from the notes, was not written by Steve Zalian. It was written by Eric Roth. Gotcha.

1:13:20Okay. One of the other masters of adaptation. Right. The other gray beard of screenwriting genius. Smoke and Aces? Sure. Seen that? Ryan Reynolds? Yeah. Andy Garcia? Chris Pine? Ray Liotta? Common? Common. Alicia Keys? Yeah. Alicia Keys plays a sniper in that movie right definitely yeah Joe Carnahan is directing Ripped Ripped Ripped which is the new film starring Ripped was Jeff Bridges and somebody else that's R.I.P.D. yeah R.I.P.D. very different from RIP which is Ben Affleck Matt Damon movie coming soon from Joe Carnahan excited about that of course I am that's also Apple TV correct Apple TV Plus yeah don't forget the Plus I don't have that so yeah you don't have the Plus you have the$3.99 subscription.

1:14:09They just show me ads for AirPods every five minutes. Do you think do you think Garbage Scorsese movies are good? Yeah. They are some of my favorites. Do you think they're good? Some of them. They're comforting. You know, there's nothing wrong with I mean, I guess there can be a lot wrong with reheating the work of a cinematic master just to watch people shooting each other. But it's an homage. It's done with love for the most part. It's because we all want to feel what we felt when we first saw Goodfellas. Is it love or is it a lack of creativity? Well, it could be both. But, you know, not everyone can be Martin Scorsese, you know?

1:14:47No. We just, we don't, genius does not walk among us every single day. So sometimes, I know, you're Chris or you're AI Chris sitting across the table from him. Or other Chris prosthetic nose saying, great point, Chris. So it's, but that's okay. It's like, that still makes you laugh, you know? How come you don't do character work like that? Me? Yeah, like in prosthetics. Would you consider it? She does a lot of physical comedy. Yeah, more pratfalls. I do. More the Buster Keaton of podcasting. Martin Scorsese over here. I was thinking about that. Is it a sign that we lack a little bit of creativity as a filmmaking community that this wonderful man has inspired so many knockoffs?

1:15:31It's hard because... I think what happens is, I thought of War Dogs, right? The Todd Phillips movie, which is very clearly garbage Scorsese. When don't we think of War Dogs? Another movie that on paper, I'm like, this is all the pieces to the puzzle, except it's not good. Great Bradley Cooper performance. Very entertaining. I wonder what that movie would be like if Martin Scorsese was never born. You know what I mean? Counterpoint. Martin Scorsese himself is something of an encyclopedia of filmmaking, you know, and that all of his films feature, you know, French New Wave, Akira Kurosawa, Alfred Hitchcock, what have you.

1:16:12So in truth, ripping off Scorsese is merely paying homage to the great films of all time. Yeah. It's not, it's not. Because he's omnivorous, but also he has a very specific style that he, I mean, part of it is just that for the first half of his career. I mean, obviously, he's made a million movies and has done all sorts of things, but through Goodfellas, or I guess through Casino, there is a very specific, thematic, stylistic through line that is, like, they're not just ripping off Scorsese, they're ripping off just like a little mini genre that he created and everyone truly loved. I think the tricky thing of Garbage Scorsese, I think you're right, is that it's an adoption of style but not theme and motivation.

1:17:08So like what undergirds all the great Scorsese movies is this like battle between fate and consequence and faith and desire. You know, these like big ideas that are kind of coursing through him using broad dramatic genre to tell stories about people in crisis. I guess War Dogs is kind of that but it's more like Miles Teller's baby needs a crib so he's got to become an arms dealer you know isn't that the plot of the movie you know it's like a cool script but it's like it's not about Harvey Keitel's tortured soul and mean streets yeah listen it's like he's gonna be a priest who's gonna shoot guys in the head you know like it's different that's why it's garbage you know that's why it's garbage that's why it's garbage yeah last question or my last question was what filmmaker since Scorsese, and I'm still active, in fact, somehow is attached to two projects right now.

1:18:05I think four. Well, there's the Hawaii Departed. There's Marilynne Robinson's Home. There's what are the other two? Devil in the White City is apparently still - And he's absolutely cooking on Fox Nation right now with the Saints doc. Yeah, you have an upcoming episode about that on the Watch. That's the first episode of me interviewing me. I think The Devil in the White City with Leo is still possible. Right. I think also his film about Jesus Christ with Kent Jones is apparently still happening. He was attached to The Wager, the David Graham nonfiction book. Was there a Hawaii one? Yeah. That was the first one.

1:18:42The one with The Rock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one seems like they made quite a big production out of announcing that. I'm waiting to hear from Martin Scorsese about that. The Rock came out and was like, it's so great to be working with the great Marty Scorsese. Yeah. So that made it sound like that was going to happen. Are you implying that The Rock always tells the truth? No, but I am implying that Emily Blunt, Leonardo DiCaprio, Martin Scorsese, and The Rock want to go to Hawaii. As do I. Here's my thing about that. I subscribe to your theory that people will often make movies like this to go on extravagant vacations and to be surrounded by beauty and history.

1:19:20But like The Rock could just, he could afford to go to Hawaii. He just made Moana too. Like I'm pretty sure he's been to Hawaii. Of all the people, like I don't think Marty does really want to go to Hawaii. You know what he wants to do? Watch movies. Sit in a dark room like me. Watch films. Yeah. He's running out of time. Worried about Marty on the set of The Wager. You know, a lot of water. You know, a lot of like throwing guys around and that. So I'd like him to stay put. Stick with Christ, you know? Yeah. Easy stuff. There was a, I was looking at unmade Martin Scorsese projects blog posts and there was one called jesus christ in new york where it was just like modern day jc walking through that was about me in 2006

1:20:04i don't fucking dipset mixtape listening session i'm i'm just i'm really excited for odyssey our second season which will be about the wager you know i like we're looking for projects right now. Once they're done in Greece, we'll just get you in that water tank, you know? Can you, just for Alice purposes, can you just record a page-by-page reading of the wager so that I can play it for her on the Yoto every night? Do you think that that would calm her? I think it might. Yeah. I'll read her Anna Karenina. Well, I would certainly put her to sleep. Hey now. Hey now. Closing thoughts? You feel good?

1:20:41Well, we said we were going to do a top 10 and this is like 15. We do that every time. Okay. No, we don't. You want to do the top 10? No, I just didn't know whether you wanted some sort of... Lop off Good Time because Good Time is actually a good movie and I broke the reverse chronological order. Bike Riders, Hustlers, Hot Summer Nights, American Hustle, American Gangster, put American in your movie, Alpha Dog, Blow, Donnie Brasco, Amongst Friends, Laws of Gravity. Okay. I think it would have been better to have Casino. A lot of your choices. Casino is the most honorable mention. A lot of my choices?

1:21:22The umpire and the player. That wasn't good list making, you know? Okay, well. I love you, but you were just like, you were like, I made some great calls here. I made the long list. Came up with the idea. You did a great job. We appreciate you always. Okay, good. Make your list. Fire away. Go ahead, big time. Bobby deleted the long list. It's right here. It's on Letterboxd. I sent it to you. No, I know. But like our. Did you know that I made it and I shared it with you, but nobody else has it? Yeah, it's private. It's only us. Oh, wow. So only you guys have it. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. Will you now release it to the public?

1:21:59Did we have edit privileges? Not after the way that you added it towards me. I didn't do anything. Could we have added things to the list? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to call Jim Letterboxd right now. Okay. Jim.

1:22:14Okay, great. Well, like I said, 25 for 25 coming later this week. No tips. You guys do Snow White yet? We're not doing it. I want to do Disney Princess Hell with Prince's dad over here, but he's not available at this moment. I'm shipping up to Boston. I know. The next princess movie will get in the mix. It'll be me and Sean on a duck boat talking Odyssey night shoots. Yeah, well, I'm looking for some micro processes. It's going to be a while before I can see Snow White. Thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner. Thank you to Jack Sanders. CR, what do you got cooking up? Not much. I'm going to Boston.

1:22:54Yeah. It's all just... What's on the watch when you're in Boston? We're recording it tomorrow. It'll be Dope Thief, The Pit, and maybe some Top Chef. Maybe some... Top Chef hasn't really... You've really been neglecting Top Chef. As someone who only knows what's happening on Top Chef when you recap it. And I appreciate that you want to honor Kaya's relationship to Top Chef and you don't want to spoil it for her. We spoil the pit every week for her. You know what? I think Kaya can catch up on Top Chef. I love you, Kaya. She does a great job on your Instagram. Yeah, she does. Yeah, she knows how to use all the stickers.

1:23:31She does. Yeah. Let me tell you something about the pit. I haven't seen one minute of it. It's one of those shows that's like a show that somebody on a TV show is watching. And they're like, I love this show. And I'm like, oh, it must be fun for those characters. is like you and Andy talking about the pit. It's like my buddies have something that I'll never have access to. Like I just can't. I did watch Adolescence. Did you watch that? I will never watch it because they like, and I know Andy started off his recap of the first one being like, as a parent, it was okay for me. No, it's not okay for me.

1:23:58Won't be doing it. What's your review? I thought it was terrific. And TV is back. Really powerful. And I thought your discussion, especially the second discussion that you guys had was excellent. Thank you. it is terrifying to consider the real world stakes of that story and very well made and I thought impressively unshowy given the strategy that they took to make it and wildly good performances so I was very very impressed that's great to hear I'm glad you enjoyed it so much thank you Dr. Television the pit is harrowing but is there's something about it it's just like the most reliably satisfying thing I've watched this year I read a headline about The Pit which was like how to you know simulate a live birth for TV and then it was like something involving a puppet and I was like once again I'm out I will not be watching this I mean that's cool it's an extensive extensive birth scene yeah that's it's you know I'm how did it feel being so close to the scene did you feel energized did you feel moved by the spirit yeah you know just wondered you know i guess that's the miracle of life that's as close as i'm gonna get okay unless anybody wants to invite me into what do you mean you're there's about to be a second chris ryan that'll be birthing soon on podcasts that's gonna be more like a severance thing you know what i mean like absolutely you're innie and you're outie uh okay well thank you for listening to this show we'll be back later this week with 25 for 25 see you then

1:25:39Thank you.