The Truth About Netflix Buying Warner Bros. Plus: Snubs and Surprises of the Golden Globe Nominations and Jafar Panahi on ‘It Was Just an Accident.’

28:38You know, I'm single-handedly saving movies. But I do think if you care about movies and you like going to movies, sure, keep going to movies. I don't think that's terribly bad advice. What else would you save to the aspiring cinephile to help fight, you know, the M &A Raiders? I mean, you will not win. So don't worry about winning. I think just support the things that you like is obviously the best thing to do. And this did have me thinking a little bit sociologically and anthropologically, though, about what Netflix is and how they have gotten to this place. Yeah. And I do think that that's worth exploring a little bit.

29:20Because to me, it is really about this soft exploitation of convenience. And the theatrical experience is connected to that. because originally when this company came around, I was very excited because the idea of getting three DVDs of a vast library of films at my home in the mail without having to leave my home and I can keep them for as long as I want, that was an amazing service. It did kill video stores, which is something I cared about, but they were already dying. And this just sped up that process. Likewise, binge watching 12 hours of your favorite show all at once in one night. And you can watch it.

30:04And before I had a child, I would comfortably watch six hours of television in a row. I will never do that again. Yeah. But that was a fascinating thing to get. I think we're all kind of burnt out on that model now. And Netflix even seems to be a little bit burnt out on that model. But that was another convenience that was extraordinary. Not only do I not have commercials, but I don't have to wait. Like, I can just click through to the next episode. And that was convenience. That was an exploitation of something that we didn't even really know we wanted or could have. And they found it. Yeah. I mean, I think that that is putting a little bit too much responsibility, again, on us.

30:46I think humans are weak, man. I'm weak. Sure, but I think corporations suck. Like, I would still like to blame the corporation rather than the human being. Like, what you described for TV. I'm using the word exploitation. We don't care about, I personally don't care about the art of television. Like, I enjoy it, but it's not, you know, cinema is the art to me. So, to me, they just, like, made it a better experience until they did it, you know? It's like, if they made a good show that was easier to watch, I was like, great. That sounds really, The Crown, loving it. You know, at least the first five seasons don't know what happened in season six.

31:22I mean, it just it was really they caught up with the modern times. I'll never know. But they just they made the customer experience better. Like and I think that trying to I think ignoring that does not. It is part of the problem. It's not going to help us get people back to what we want. I think it's reasonable to ask the question. Do they make the customer experience for movies better, though? because they did, they dramatically increased the convenience of movie delivery for new films. And, you know, like, Ava DuVernay talked about this a lot in the first half of the huge Netflix rise. She talked a lot about how in a lot of communities in America, there just are not movie theaters.

32:08Or there's not a convenient way to get to a movie theater or an affordable way to get to a movie theater. And so a studio like Netflix that prizes coming to streaming first for, you know, X dollars per month is a way to just deliver more art more cheaply and more easily to a lot more people. I think we have a lot of listeners who feel that way. Yeah. And it's not because they prefer watching a movie at home. It's because it's a lot harder to see a lot of these titles. You know, smaller things. Train Dreams is a great example, which would be like a very small, windowed, limited release if it were Sony Pictures Classics.

32:47Right. And instead is available to everyone. It's true. The knock-on effect of that is that you, sure, you didn't drive to the movie theater and pay$72 plus parking, plus get a sitter, plus your craft cocktail and your caramel popcorn to check out what you hope is not a shitty Ryan Reynolds movie. Yeah. But then you just get to watch the shitty Ryan Reynolds movie on Netflix at home. But the lack of experience and the sedentary quality of watching things at home, it minimizes its emotional impact. You just yada yada'd like$150 to$200, which is like an incredibly material part of this. Like it is wildly expensive to go to the movies.

33:35I cannot believe how much a bucket of popcorn costs. But this is not like a public trust. It's a hobby. Like if you want to participate in the hobby, it costs money. Like it's as simple as that. Yeah, but it costs$25 for a Netflix subscription versus$200 a pop? Yeah, you're making my point. This is the soft exploitation of convenience. That's what it is. It's also just, it's economics. People don't have$200 to go to. It's so, it's crazy how expensive it is. I totally understand. And the more, like, the more convenient or the more affordable Netflix got, like, the more expensive movies have gotten.

34:08Like, what kind of business is that? Like, here, now your water's$12. Like, you know, I understand there are a lot of things at play, but it's really, really, really expensive. And so are groceries and so are a lot of other things. And it's just like, it is a bad business. They can't get out of like their leases. Like they can't get out of their lot of stuff, but you really cannot discount it. It is fucking expensive. I agree. I'm not disagreeing. You're making my point for me. I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't think that's like exploiting convenience. I think that's just like a reality of, you know.

34:38Of course it is. What do you mean? I think that's condescending. I think that that's because people like don't have that much money. I think you're misunderstanding how systems work then. To me, this is what every smart business does is that they come in and they look at what people don't have and they try to give them what they want for less money than they think. The thing is, if a deal like this goes through, let's check in on what a Netflix subscription costs in five years. Sure. Because it won't be what it costs right now. And over time, they will continue to shift the financials to make this like cable television was 10, 20 years ago when you would wake up one day and open up your cable TV bill and it was$250.

35:19And I remember that being incredibly bracing for my parents. And they were like, when did this happen and how did this happen? And all of a sudden it became, well, you have the standard package and you have the movie package and all you need broadband Wi-Fi. And also we have this additional channel that you might want and there's an upsell there for$12.99. This is what will happen. Like, this is the way that they, like, essentially reconnect the revenue stream over time. That's true. And that's true of every single Silicon Valley business model where they give you something very cheaply and then they ratchet the price up over time.

35:48I just don't think that you can, like, the movie theaters have not responded in any meaningful way. And, like, it's not defensible to ask people to spend$200 to go to the movie. Like, it's just, that's fine. It can be a hobby for some people, but that's not viable. I agree with you. I'm not disagreeing. I mean, the thing is that there are still a lot of people who are willing to go. It's just that they're not willing to go 30 times a year. They're willing to go five times a year. And so I don't know if there's a way where the business itself can kind of reorient where that is allowable. You know, like we're...

36:19Yeah, yeah, yeah. To your point about like leases and this like established economy of multiplexes. Right. That thing that grew over time from 1985 through 2005, that is not manageable. And so I do think you'll see like a knock-on effect over time if Netflix goes through. If Paramount doesn't go through, it's kind of interesting like what happens to theatrical because Paramount will start making, even though they'll make fewer movies when they were two separate studios. Right. Their focus is going to be on theatrical. You know, that's that, you know, pumping up Paramount Plus and making theatrical work is kind of a core part of the business.

36:55It is the core part of the business. Yeah. Whether or not they can be successful at that, like maybe that actually augurs even more failure in the theatrical business if their movies don't work. We don't know. There's not a ton of history of Skydance having great taste beyond Tom Cruise movies. That's true. And even those, it's really, you know, Top Gun Maverick. They sat on it. They would not release it during the pandemic. They were right in that one. And then every single Mission Impossible Sense has been sort of soft and has lost its IMAX screens pretty quickly to another big name director.

37:26Yeah. Yeah, so you could make the case that if Netflix is true to their word, which is that they're going to keep Warner Brothers Film Studio as a separate and distinct business and release their movies in theaters for, let's say, 10 years. I'm not saying they're going to do that, but let's just say for the sake of conversation that that could be a better outcome. There's a case that that's a better outcome from a pure film-going experience. Sure, but then the world's on fire in many other ways because what it means of who owns both movie studios and then CNN and everything else. So in the hostile takeover bid David Ellison and family corralled the Saudis the Qataris Emirates and Jared Kushner's hedge fund to chip in money for over $100 billion hostile takeover bid.

38:20Getting a strong thumbs down. I'm sorry I didn't mean to distract you. Getting a strong Long thumbs down from Jack Sanders. So who have you called to raise money? To be a part of the hostile bid or for my own? You're independent on bid. Do you feel that you are more of a merger or an acquisition? Just, you know. A merger or an acquisition? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just spiritually. I think we'd all like to be an acquisition and we are all a merger, you know. Unless you really can be an acquirer, then you're a merger. I called business Chris Ryan. and we're just going to start our own network and live stream movie studio where we release the new Geese albums and then analyze what's going on with the various funds on a real-time basis.

39:03That sounds like a good show. Yeah. But it'll also be in IMAX. Yeah. I don't... The ideal outcome remains what we said a few weeks ago which is some person emerges from the shadows some sent a billionaire. Sure. and says, I have made my billions in shipping, and I love film, and I want film to continue on in just the way it did. And I don't think that it should be subject to tariffs at the ports. Yeah, that's a whole other story. And that person needs to be cozied up to the Trump administration, but also very agreeable to us politically. So this magical, impossible person will come along, and that's just not going to happen.

39:46Okay. I don't know. So can you run it out until, no, this deal has to close before 2028, right? It does because there is, well, there is a$5 billion penalty for Netflix if after two and a half years plus six months, the deal doesn't close, which is right up to the nose. I think there's like a six month waiting period that's indicated in the deal offer from Netflix. But, you know,$5 billion is an insane penalty. but I actually think that Netflix is really smart and the reason why I said it was a win-win earlier is because yeah sure maybe they get this maybe they get this and they end the streaming wars officially right they rise to victory they slowly take over the movie watching experience in America or maybe they don't maybe they do end up paying the penalty but two and a half to three years go by and Warner Brothers exists in this kind of amber yeah where they're like they're making their movies and everything that's been greenlit and everything that's franchised and safe is going forward.

40:47But Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi are not authorized to fund one battle after another. And maybe they can't make a deal that Ryan Coogler has an ownership stake in Sinners after 25 years because there's going to be an acquisition. And that goes against the precedent that's expected for their future owner. Maybe they don't look to acquire or merge with another company. That could be a better situation six to 12 months from now because they're in this holding pattern of evaluation by the government and other corporations. So it kind of just kneecaps WB for a while. Yeah. I mean, WB has already kneecapped itself.

41:25Let's just... But look at what it did at the movies this year, you know? I do understand that they're doing... Yeah. They were able to at least take risks because they were independent. Right. And say what you want about David Zaslav, I don't think he's done a very good job at all over the last few years. The high commander of the Christmas Adventurers himself, Southwest Division. Very much so. But he did hire Mike and Pam, and they did make those movies. And he kept Casey Bloys in his job, and HBO continues to be great. They continue to be HBO despite everything that's fucking happened over the last 20 years.

41:58It's still like, yeah, we got Tasks. We got Chair Company. We still are making the coolest shows. That's true. Creatively, the output has been positive, but then he has driven the financials that make the creative possible off a cliff while paying himself a tremendous amount of money. A lot of the advantage has been pivoted in his direction. There's some speculation over the last few days, specifically that he has been lobbying for a role in whatever new company takes on his business. And that could be a factor. That is just something that I have heard and can neither confirm nor deny. The HBO part, very quickly, since we are neither experts nor are we the TV podcast.

42:35But it is interesting because I don't really understand the idea of keeping those businesses separate. And we've heard that as well, that HBO would be its own entity. Right. Why would you want to bounce around from one streaming service to another? Would HBO just become a tile inside of Netflix? I think there's been a lot of discussion recently about how Amazon uses the tiles for all the other streaming services. And that's been a boon to their business. And, you know, another revenue stream. Like, how many... So it would be an add-on. I think so. Yeah, it gets you more money to the point I was making about, you know, the bump in subscription rate.

43:13But I wonder, do you think it will tilt Netflix's programming strategy towards more like basic cable style, like more reality, more sports, more TV? Well, it's already tilted that way. It is, but like, do you need adolescence on Netflix if you have HBO? Because those two companies are no longer bidding against each other for the property. So will anything that is quote unquote good, will Department Q go on Netflix? Or will it? I think, I mean, I do wonder whether HBO gets like slightly more breadth. I mean, their mandate. And remember when they were also in charge of making the Max shows? Yes.

43:53Text Lies of College Girls, never forget. Had a great time. Pauline Chalamet. Sure, but so their breadth of programming has shifted depending on who's in charge and what they're programming for. And I, you know, I believe in Casey Boyce's ability to maneuver appropriately. I do as well. More podcasts on the platform, you think? Don't even get started. Let's talk about physical media. I'd love to. Okay. Okay. I'm fine. Good. I'm fine. Okay. I'm going to lay it out for you. Yes. Netflix does not have a physical media operation. I'm aware. They have licensed a select handful of titles to the Criterion Collection.

44:35Okay. That's it. Okay. That's it. This flies completely in the face of their primary business model. Right. Which is streaming. Right. So. Well, their current primary business model. Because once upon a time, their business model, as you noted, was letting you keep three DVDs in your house for as long as possible. Yes. Distributing but not producing physical media. Five years ago, a company was formed called Studio Distribution Services. Are you familiar with this company? I read your outline. Okay. So it's an American home entertainment company that's co-owned 50-50 between Universal and Warner Brothers.

45:10Okay. This is the company that produces all the discs and distributes all the discs for those two studios. In recent years, they've also brought on other partners. Sony now works with SDS. Neon now works with SDS. Okay. Shout Factory, which is one of the very best American distributors. Your beautiful Bring It On 4K was made by Shout Factory. Did Shout Factory also do the five hours of trailers? No. Oh, who was that? That's Fun City Editions. That's a much smaller company, but also very good. Anyway, Shout Factory also just completely, they closed their own website, and they now use the distribution services website, Groove.com, that SDS owns.

45:47A lot of the American production of major studio Blu-ray and 4Ks is going to SDS. 50 % of it is owned by Warner Brothers. So the question here is, will that continue? Warner Brothers and Universal has a 10-year agreement to do this together. When does it expire? In 2030. Okay. So you can make the case that maybe they just run it out until the completion of this deal. Yeah. You can make the case that this is a new business model for Netflix as well. I have thought about that. As I said to you when this was first announced and you said, oh no, what about my Blu-rays? You know, they do have a history of merchandising in other areas.

46:32Meghan Markle has a jam and homewares company that is underwritten entirely by Netflix. When you order the jam, it says produced by, and then it's the sunset Boulevard address of Netflix. Like they are making these. There are stranger things, you know, sweatshirts and Furbies and whatever. At the Egyptian next door, the Egyptian theater in Los Angeles, there is a Netflix store where you can buy their gear. So they are making things to be sold. So there's no reason to say that if it could be a financial boon to them, that they would be against it. And I do think that they are in need of money. I agree with you.

47:15But it does undercut. I know. They just, they want you on your phone. It's not just that, though. There's one other component of this that I think is notable in terms of what this deal means. Part of the reason why Netflix doesn't like theaters or want theaters is because they have to share money with theaters. The Warner Brothers deal is a way to continue to centralize and kind of like significantly close the loop on who gets to participate in the revenue generated by Netflix. Warner Brothers has to split 50-50 or 60-40 on most movies that go into movie theaters. If you don't go to movie theaters, you keep all the profits for yourself in terms of the revenue generated by the memberships and subscriptions.

47:54Blu-rays, likewise, if this is a company that has owned 50-50, I don't know what the dynamics are between who gets what money from what Blu-ray production, but this is another partner. They're closing all deals on partners. They're no longer going to be licensing any of the content from Warner Brothers because they're going to own it. Like over time, they're not going to need to license very much at all if they have Warner Brothers. So it does make me a little bit skeptical. Though they may then keep licensing out the Warner Brothers stuff. That's been a discussion. That is an open question. Yes, that's an open question whether or not they would then license their content to other companies.

48:29They've never done that before. You can't watch a Netflix show on any other service right now, as far as I know. And so that would be a change as well. We're talking about a world where like a lot of changes, if no changes happen, if it's just like everything's going under Netflix and there's no more movies going into movie theaters, I'm going to freak out. Yeah. I actually am going to freak out. Sure. Like, I will too. It will be in a different way. Yeah. But, you know, that would suck. I will go walk into the desert. That would really suck. I mean, I do. My question for you about physical media is less about your ability to have steelbooks in your garage and more about what those smaller labels do in terms of preservation and things that have historically been buried in libraries and archives being available and how that works long term.

49:21To your point, you can't get a Netflix movie anywhere from any other service. You also can't rent it from the library. Right. Well, I'll use an example. They're not on Canopy. I'll use an example from the Unboxing Boy video that came out over the weekend. One of the items that Eileen got for me was a new leaf. And a beautiful edition of Elaine Mays, a new leaf. It's a 4K of the movie, which had not previously been available in that format. It was released by a company called Cinematograph, which is a subsidiary of Vinegar Syndrome, which is one of the biggest independent distributors of Blu-rays.

49:55A New Leaf was licensed from Paramount. Let's say A New Leaf was a Warner Brothers movie. Right. My gut tells me Cinematograph would not have rights to license that title. And I don't know who is responsible for restoring and now preserving the 4K upgrade of the movie. But is Netflix going to care about that? Is that the kind of work that they're going to do? Warner Brothers in particular has Warner Archive which is arguably the best just kind of like historical churn them out system that we have where they're just like look at the list of films that they've made the hundreds and hundreds of movies that they've made over the last hundred years and they'll be like what about this cowboy movie from 1939 this is kind of this is of note people will want to own this and they'll produce a version of it maybe they only sell 500 copies but there are just go to warnerarchive.com sure and look at everything that they've made Related, except for Steelbooks, Warner Brothers also has Turner Classic Movies.

50:50Yes. Which, according to Deadline, is going to be a part of the Warner Brothers Netflix. I Googled this morning. Is that the sole channel that would be moving over? I believe so, as opposed to the Discovery. So that's another tile, essentially, on Netflix. I guess so. But, you know, that is currently a television network and, you know, festival and program that does a lot of surfacing of the amazing Warner Brothers catalog and history and programming that will now be under the control of Netflix. So how and what will they do? What is their commitment to, you know, preservation and historical programming?

51:30and it's funny that experience actually always I think made more sense to people on television like Paul Thomas Sanders talks about how it's always on in his house that you just go into his house it's just TCM all the time whereas like it's actually hard to get people to press play on an old movie like a movie like a black and white movie on streaming I mean it's the old saw about you're just clicking through Netflix for 20 minutes because you can't pick what to actually watch but TCM just press play for you and I was like no check this out what about this old cowboy movie from the something what about you know XYZ yeah so the truth is is that we just don't know with physical media and I don't want to there is a an optimistic look at it there is a way to say well this company exists they're not going to disband it because of this agreement that they have the work that they're doing right now is pretty cool like stuff is on sale all the time on Groove.com like it's it's not it's actually more affordable than going to a movie it's like F1 is like $11.99 to own on 4K forever.

52:32That's part of my point of this. Yeah. If a plane hits a server somewhere and knocks out everything that's backed up on Netflix, we might lose stuff. We might lose stuff in perpetuity. I get it. In the larger Library of Alexandria sense, I get it. Again, your ability to buy plastic is... I'm not buying plastic. I'm buying movies. They're connected. They're connected, but you know, and I understand that you drive the market that then enables film preservation long term. Exactly. Sure, but you are also just like doing your own version of ethical consumption over capitalism. And it's fine. I like buying stuff too, you know?

53:17Yeah. But what I am doing contributes to artists and has emotional utility. Okay. That's great. I also contribute to artists. They're just, you know. Such as teacup makers. no one has gotten me that teacup yet okay let's do like a brass tax closing on this discussion because this has been robust okay do you think this is actually going to happen do you think Netflix is going to buy Warner Brothers Discovery I have no idea okay what do you want me to do make a call I mean I guess not okay they've tried a lot of they've tried to buy a lot of different things over the years you know I'd heard they wanted to be the kings of video games or whatever yes they try to get me to play a game every time I open that app that didn't really work They are struck out.

53:59Yep. So I think both from like a historical, they've tried a lot of things. It's obviously pretty legally tricky. Mm-hmm. No one but David Zaslav and Ted Sarandos seem excited about this. Yeah. And I guess Ted Sarandos is lieutenants. Yeah. So you then have to wonder, would people want to even work there? Not in the employee sense, but filmmakers. I have thought about that a little bit. It's really hard to say because there's going to be only a couple of games in town at this point. Yeah. So, and Netflix, to its credit, by dint of that freedom and budget, has been able to draw in the best filmmakers alive.

54:39Right. Like, they've really had very little trouble. There's a handful of people. Now, we did hear that the DGA issued a note about their concern over this. Uh-huh. And I have seen people speculate, like, if Christopher Nolan kind of rallied the troops and they really dug their heels in the ground, which is not something the DGA historically does. Well, but if they did, that would be interesting to watch the outcome of that because Chris Nolan does not want to be on Netflix. No, absolutely not. That's not something he wants. Denis Villeneuve does not want to be on Netflix. Like there are filmmakers.

55:06I think he's he's got to be real mad about. Well, he's making James Bond. Sure. For Amazon. He's off to elsewhere. Sure. They'll go on Netflix eventually but they don't want to be on Netflix to start. And that feels that's not going to change the deal but it's going to change what you're describing which is like a certain band of artists will be like we don't work with those guys. Sure. We'll see. Sure. And on the other hand, or maybe on the same hand, to quote one of our favorite films, like, never underestimate a motivated, angry rich person. Or a motivated, angry, you know, son of a rich person.

55:45They seem... That's what I think is going to happen. They came ready to play. I think it's going to be paramount. Yeah. I think it's going to take two and a half to three years, but I do think it's going to be paramount. Okay, great. Well, I think we'll have a lovely time. Yeah. Yeah, they can afford to wait it out. It's going to be messy. I promise to not make this show a weekly update on this story. I promise. That sounds great. I did think that this conversation was necessary. I'm actually going back to business school so that I can do like my weekly case studies here. That'll be my homework.

56:11Direct to camera. Yeah. I think no matter what, Netflix has done something very smart for them. Yeah. You know, that this move, whether it handicaps Warner Brothers in some way, or puts Paramount in a state of tremendous disrepair and puts them in thrall to all of their partners in a way, which is a whole other domino effect that we can talk about down the road. It keeps them in pole position in a fascinating way. And I guess we'll continue following the story. Can I close with my strong take about this? Yeah, which I agree with. Do you agree with what? I do, and I'm going to go further, but you start.

56:49Yeah. even though I would not be happy with the Netflix outcome this isn't really Netflix's fault this is the fault of every major studio over the last 25 years that has thrown itself in with globalization in the movie business and roughly mid 90s late 90s when there was this dawning realization that international box office could be more profitable and more valuable to the company at large largely corporately held than domestic box office, you saw a dramatic shift in the kinds of movies that were being made and the focus. And over that 30-year period, more franchises, more recognizable IP, more figures who could play overseas, more films that are less dependent on people and more dependent on concept.

57:38And so we have witnessed... the ultimate consequence of chasing more dollars in favor of the stability of what moviemaking is meant to represent. Now, you could make the case that that's just the evolution of any art form in any business, but there was an alternative path here. I mean, I agree, and I would just go further and say, you know, we live in hell, and the rapacious need for growth in every industry, unrelenting forever and ever, is decimating all of our institutions and our way of life. Yes. I hope this is not perceived as an ethnocentric take that American movies should stay American.

58:21That isn't my point. My point is that only certain kinds of movies will play all over the world and generate several billion dollars in revenue and that that changed what movies were. So whenever we whinge about what happened to comedies, what happened to mid-tier dramas, why aren't there movies for adults, all that stuff, that shit doesn't play overseas. That's why they don't get made. The reason why rom-coms work on Netflix is because Netflix has filled that gap in terms of consumption. People still want those movies. They just don't want them around the world in the exact same way. And that is the thing that desecrated the movie going experience.

58:52It's not the money. It's not how much it costs. It's not even the convenience machine that Netflix built that we're talking about here. It was the desire to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow for 30 plus years and essentially spiking its own in its own end zone. And to have to keep growing even now. Part of this is happening because Netflix has grown and grown and grown and grown. Yes. And so has YouTube. And so has Amazon. And so has TikTok. and they just have to keep getting more, more, more, more, more. And it's not going to end. And there's no one who's going to come in and say like, hey guys, too much growth.

59:25That doesn't exist. That's not, there's no case for that. There's no logical world in which someone would have the power. Then you're talking about government regulation around something like that. We don't really do that in our country. No. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Like an action blockbuster, the holidays move quick. But with Prime, fast free delivery means those last-minute gifts arrive right when you need them. Last year, while watching Singing in the Rain with my son, I realized a pair of tap shoes would be a perfect Christmas gift, and I had them under the tree for him on Christmas Day.

59:55Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last-minute and just can't wait. Last-minute holiday magic? It's on Prime. Head to amazon.com slash prime to shop now. So that's our thrilling conclusion to that discussion. Yeah. Outlook great. I'm really excited for the world we're handing to our children. which is a great segue to the leader of the Golden Globes nominations. That's right. Look at me. Nice job. Thank you. Thanks so much. Well done. Thank you. It's going to be one battle after another this awards season, literally and figuratively. Let's talk briefly, or maybe not so briefly, about the Golden Globe nominations.

1:00:32So the Golden Globes are pointless.

1:00:41They have nominated all of the cool and good movies. and none of the bad and lame movies. True. And they are looking more and more like the Academy Awards has looked in recent years. They're increasingly international. Yeah. They're identifying great works by auteurs. They've kind of wrung out a lot of the cronyism in their organization over time. There's a new form of cronyism perhaps in place, but it's the old HFPA. It's gone. The HFPA that nominated Deadpool in Best Comedy or Musical is no longer around. this is a very different organization yeah since their remake and their relaunch they have just been clinging to the coattails of every single awards bug and just trying not to ruffle any feathers yes exactly and there's like you know every once in a while it kicks in with like we really gotta have Kate Hudson here at the and I'm happy for Kate Hudson she's been doing karaoke in order to promote a film that I can't remember the name of.

1:01:45Song Song Blue. Sure. Have you seen it? Not yet. Okay. Next week. That's exciting. And I think I have to go see Anaconda, so I can't, I will have to wait on that one. Why not both? Because I have a job and children. But yeah, it's predictable and just an excuse to get people in a room two months early and it's sort of, it's just like a welcome party. Well, I mean, some of this is the cynical what's good for show content stuff and some of it is what is the purpose of this show. And I think that both things, both of those quagmires are true for us where the Golden Globes are ridiculous. They've always been historically ridiculous.

1:02:26You know, it's a shadowy group of people whose names we don't really know. We don't really know like what they're really affiliated with and what they do every day. And they make these choices about what they think are their favorite movies. You know, the same could probably be said for the Los Angeles Film Critics Association which just voted over the weekend or the Big Pictures top five episodes of the year or even the Academy Awards. I think everyone knows what I do all day, but that's fine. They do. You buy teacups. Still, part of what made it fun was that they would be like, yeah, Jared Leto and the little things.

1:02:58We think you deserve to be honored. That was a good idea. And we don't get that anymore. We get this like very respectable collection of nominees. Let's talk about the nominees to this point, okay? So you mentioned one after another, it received nine nominations. It's nominated in every major category that it was eligible in. That's true. The only snub you could argue is Regina Hall, which I don't even think is a snub at this point. but they've got six spots in supporting actress. Yes. But no room for Regina Hall. No, but picture, director, screenplay, actor, two people in supporting actor, supporting actress.

1:03:35For Tiana Taylor, yes. Yeah, score, like on down the line. This has been the movie of the season. It will continue to be the movie of the season. It is dominant here. The second most dominant movie in terms of the number of nominations was Sentimental Value. Were you surprised by this? I was. Though I guess they're embracing international. As you noted, it's a very international mix. Five non-English language features represented in the 12 total Best Picture nominees among drama and comedy or musical. Right. Which I was surprised by. I think even a few weeks ago, even maybe on our last Best Picture Power Rankings, it had not felt that the international features, there wasn't a pop favorite like Anatomy of a Fall, say, however many years ago or Parasite.

1:04:21And I think that's changing a little bit as we, as the releases widen. And I think It Was Just an Accident has really had its moment, both through all the awards bodies and wider release and Jafar Panahi's sentencing. so you know I think that that like it's starting and maybe we were just a little or I was a little too soon on that but sentimental value it had been waning and that's not just me talking I wonder if this is going to be impactful or not because four acting nominations Joachim Trier has two nominations here including in Best Director where he pushed out some other people who were competing and I don't I don't know if this movie is win competitive against, you know, a Hamnet or us sinners, but we'll see.

1:05:12So in addition to the six nominees in every category, which, as you've written in the document, is weak, you know, make choices. It's pathetic. Right. We're also, we have two categories. We have best drama and then best musical or comedy. And I am not one to care about category fraud, and I don't think there any is such thing. at the Golden Globes. But it's confusing right now. One battle is running in comedy, but Sinners, which has many musical elements, is running in drama. They should be flipped. Yeah. And I mean, there are other... So Sinners is up against Hamnet. Sentimental Value is also in drama.

1:05:55Something else is in comedy or musical that to me seems... I mean, Neuville Vogue is in musical or comedy. Well, sure, but that's just... You know, I'm happy for Richard Linklater. I am too. Blue Moon and Nouvelle Vague. Wonderful. I couldn't think of another time where a filmmaker was nominated twice in the same best picture category at the Golden Globes. I'm sure it's happened, but I couldn't think of an example. Was Aaron Brockovich in traffic? But I think Brockovich was probably comedy. You know, and that's obviously also the only one that we can think of. What a time for Steven. Yeah, that's really interesting.

1:06:31I'm very happy for Richard Linklater. I'm very happy for Ethan Hawke for Blue Moon. I think that those are wonderful nominations. The Nouvelle Vogue one threw me for a loop a little bit. I did not see that coming. Also at the expense of Jay Kelly, which was not in Best Musical or Comedy. Very notable. George Clooney and Adam Sandler did get nominations. They did. Well, you could make the case that this was really at the expense of Wicked for Good. Well, yeah. Wicked for Good is not in Best Musical or Comedy. That's big news. We talked about it. We took it out of our last power rankings. I thought that it would get one of the two extra spots in musical or comedy, and it did not.

1:07:07So that's... You saw it's been sinking like a stone at the box office, too. Yeah, of course. People are not feeling it. They're not really enjoying that movie. Yeah. But Gonya gets a big boost. Sure. Three nominations. It gets in comedy. It gets Jesse Plemons and Emma Stone. That's another one where, like, yes, technically, it's... I mean, it is very funny. I laughed a lot, but... Yes. Debatable how funny or painful it is. both House of Dynamite and Wake Up Dead Man completely shut out right and as you mentioned no J. Kelly and Best Comedy Hamnett's got six nominations sure which is pretty much exactly what it needs to do yeah turning along Thursday we're gonna talk about it I am going to see it in an hour and 20 minutes that's an 11 a.m.

1:07:51Monday Hamnett screening very very cool after Golden Globe nominations and the death of cinema okay so well not not according to you and Chloe Zhao who was also nominated for Best Director for her work on that film, as were Jesse Buckley and Paul Meskel and Max Richter for his score. Avatar, Fire, and Ash. Yeah. It received a achievement in cinematic and box office and cinematic achievement? Yes, it is. What is that? Yes, cinematic and box office. It's cinematic first, but then also the box office, which we should know Wicked for Good also did. It did. They're relegated to the Black Buster country.

1:08:25My beloved F1. Sure. And K-pop Demon Hunters. Yeah, yeah. Which is how you know that Cinematic is first before Box Office. Yes, Cinema is back thanks to K-pop Demon Hunters. Yeah, the acting. So let's talk about the song just briefly, which is like Wicked. The two new Wicked songs got nominated and only Golden. Shameful. Justice for Soda Pop. To me, it would be What It Sounds Like. Okay. That is my daughter's favorite song. That's the song I'm most familiar with. I think there's a case for Takedown, for Strategy. There's a lot of jams. Free. Yeah. You know, a lot of bangers on K-pop Demon Hunters.

1:09:03Right. K-pop Demon Hunters won Best Animated Feature at the New York Film Critics Circle. Isn't that amazing? It's wonderful. So strange. Okay. I was sort of surprised it didn't make it into Best Musical or Comedy. If they really wanted to throw some, you know, elbows. They're not really interested in appealing to the pop sensibility here. Well, they are in cinematic and box office achievement. I know. Just junk that. It's just such a waste of time. Nobody cares. Let's talk about the kind of broad picture of acting nominees. I think the leading contenders are still the leading contenders, right?

1:09:34Your Chalamets and Leos, your Jesse Buckley's, like those people, nothing has really changed there. No shocking surprises. But because you've got 12 lead nominees in actor and actress, you've got like Jeremy Allen White, Julia Roberts, Oscar Isaac, Tessa Thompson. I don't really think these people are very nomination competitive at the Academy Awards, but they're going to be nominated here. Yeah. Weird. I'm happy for Tessa Thompson. Nina Haas was not recognized and supported for HEDA. I was just doing my best performances of the year list. Yeah, and it's, but that's because you get, you only get one supporting category for both drama and musical comedy.

1:10:13Tessa Thompson was in HEDA, which we have not discussed on this show, but probably will come up before the year is over. Is that coming out sometime soon? HEDA, it's on Amazon Prime right now. Okay. Yeah. And you both have seen it? We have. Five words or less? An interesting adaptation. that doesn't quite get there. Okay. Nina Haas was good. You mentioned Emily Blunt. Yeah. Is in Supporting Actress. That's, you know, Globe's got a Globe every once in a while, you know? She was in The Smashing Machine, which so many people have seen. The Supporting nominations, there's only six total for Actor and Actress.

1:10:49Those feel to me very close to where we're going to end up with the Oscars. Not a single Sinner's supporting nominee, which to me is the one, you know, oversight is probably the most generous term that I could give for it. But also, you know, you do wonder whether a Delroy Lindo or a Wimu Masaka will, who have been showing up at some of the other awards situations. Yeah. I think that they're going to campaign very hard as well. So it'll be interesting to see what shakes out there. I mentioned that Ethan Hawke is in for Blue Moon for Best Actor, which is wonderful. Blue Moon also in Best Comedy or Musical, which is lovely.

1:11:27Yes, it's great. Rose Byrne also now like... Kind of in pole position? Yeah. Is that the right use of the term pole position? That would make her in first place. I would still say Jessie Buckley is very much in pole position. Sure. But she hasn't won any. She's won like one awards, you know, one like Critics Association. This is kind of like an elevated Critics Prize now. You know, it's a Critics Prize with a proper telecast. And so I don't know. Let's talk about the studio breakdown. Okay. I thought this was interesting. Neon has four nominations. Well, international. No, they have all four of the major can contenders.

1:12:05Netflix has two. Warner Brothers has two. Focus has two. A24 has one. Marty Supreme. Marty Supreme. Are you going to the drop today in Los Angeles? Is there a drop? Yeah, it's on Western Avenue at 4 p.m. Clearly, I'm not going to the drop. You are going to the drop? I have a preschool parent-teacher conference, And so I'm not able. Very cool. A different kind of drop. Right. An information drop. Sure. No, I'm not going. I saw Marty Supreme for a second time last night. Very jealous, but not at the Ben Affleck screening. I know. Who did not invite me to the Ben Affleck hosted Marty Supreme? Yes.

1:12:39What do I have to do? Did he interview Josh Sackley and Ronald Bronstein? Was that what it was? I saw a picture of Ben and Josh. Oh, nice. And I saw a quote that said Ben Affleck described it as the best movie ever made. Really? that's according to my friend's Instagram. So, you know, but I, I trust her. it is an amazing movie. Second time was better. Uh, we'll get into that. I mean, I really, I, I'm really sorry that I can't go be with the, Jack, you going to go to the drop this afternoon?

1:13:09I just, I do have a pitch. That's exciting. I have a pitch though for, you know, cause they've been doing the jacket campaign, like the greats, you know, and it's been like Misty Copeland, Tom Brady, which I know you have feelings, about, Bill Nye the Science Guy. Fucking Tom Brady. Michael Phelps. But so then imagine me. Anybody not washed? As the greatest mommy. And it'll be me in the jacket and my Velcro rollers doing magnet tiles with my kids because you can have it all in the world of Marty Supreme. I just want them to think about it. My version of that will be a live capture of my Blu-ray shelves while I'm wearing the jacket.

1:13:47And I'll just be rearranging and be like, oh, actually, no, the fury comes after De Palma's obsession. So I got to make sure that those are in chronological order. Yeah. And then I will be the greatest at organizing Blu-rays. You'll be the greatest archivist and not be the greatest mommy. That's great. Okay. Other good surprises. Yeah. Lee Byung-hun from No Other Choice getting in. No Other Choice getting in at Best Musical or Comedy. I'm excited. That's crazy. Also, like, once again, it is very funny. I guess it is technically in a draft. we would allow it as a comedy. Oh, it's definitely a comedy.

1:14:21Yeah, it is a comedy. It's a satirical comedy. Yeah, but you know. It is also very violent and dramatic. Yeah, and I think that's actually, even though I agree with you about the sinners in one battle thing and that there's something dishonest maybe about how they've been navigated around one another. It's the Golden Globes. It is the Golden Globes. But a movie like that, I mean, you know, I just put it on my top five list and I did it in part because I was like, I feel like this is, it's fallen away a little bit and, you know, the park super fans will get into it and they'll love it but it's not going to really be contending I don't know maybe maybe you know if Wicked for Good and Avatar are actually out I know that's weird at the Academy Awards it could get in that'd be great okay Ava Victor nominated for Best Actress never would have predicted that I mean fascinating yeah love that movie that movie is definitely still competing for Best Original Screenplay at the Academy Awards I don't know if Ava Victor is competing for Best Actress at the Academy Awards.

1:15:17It is an expanded field at the Golden Globes. But screenplay, I mean, screenplay is the coolest award. It is the coolest award. Especially original screenplay. That's where you want to win. Kangding Ray was nominated for Best Score for Surratt. Have you seen Surratt? No, and it's getting spoiled. I have it on DVD or Blu-ray at home. Oh, really? Yeah, because I got the neon box over the weekend where they very kindly send to critics, some critics, a box set of every film that they've released. Oh, yeah, it is. I've borrowed it from you for many years. Okay, well, I'll borrow it. Surat, fascinating movie.

1:15:49I'd love to be able to talk with you about it. I don't... I just... It was a very limited qualifying run in LA at the Burbank 16, which I love, but I just couldn't get there. I don't know when it'll come to streaming, but I recommend it with some reservations. Okay. I mean, I'm... Knowing what I... Knowing what I know, I'm ready. Okay. So the score... Sort of. The score that's nominated... Yeah. I don't even know where this came from. This is a real... This is by far, to me, the most outlandish pick. So the film is set in a desert landscape in rave culture. Yeah. And the music, the score is primarily electronic rave music.

1:16:30And it's really good and effective in the film. Like it really gives the film a heartbeat. Yeah. And an energy. But this over Marty Supreme is crazy to me. Like crazy. Again, I haven't seen Surat, but yes, Marty Supreme is maybe the score of the year. It's incredible. Yeah. Having just seen it again last night. Listen, yeah. If it doesn't get in at the Oscars, I'm going to be baffled. Yeah. Well, they didn't do Challengers last year, so. It's a very good point but to be honest, the Surratt score is more like Challengers. Too little, too late. What other snubs? No Billy Crudup. Yeah. We're talking about Jay Kelly later this week.

1:17:11Yeah. There had been a lot of like, hey, actually, what if it's Crudup over Sandler, but Sandler got in, Crudup did not. No train dreams in drama. Yeah. What does that mean? But Joel Edgerton, yes. Well, I just, they allotted two Netflix spots and they went to Nouvelle Vague and Frankenstein. Frankenstein, as opposed to J. Kelly and Train Dreams. Yeah. Who can say? Five nominations for Frankenstein, including Lordi, Oscar Isaac, and Best Director for Guillermo del Toro, but not best screenplay. Notable. Yes. I think del Toro today, I'm asking you today, is getting into best director at the Academy Awards.

1:17:54People love him, you know? Yes or no? Well, yes. Okay. If that happens, I think what has happened here will also happen, which is that Josh Safdie was not in best director here. And that would be the case. I think people, I was at a SAG screening for Marty Supreme last night. And people were like, fucking A, man. This is it. It's incredible. So I think that there's going to be a strong wave. But, you know, Josh Safdie was at a DGA screening with Ben Affleck, who was also famously not nominated for Best Director when he won Best Picture. Is Marty going to Argo? I will. That'd be great. It's not going to happen.

1:18:32Could happen. Yeah.

1:18:36This is just like a... This show is just a starter kit for the Oscars now. Yeah. It's just this is for normies to check out. Hey, here's what you should stream in the next two months. Right. As you wait for the Academy Award nominations. Do we need that? Maybe. I mean, I don't think listeners of this show need it because you and I do that. They are on our turf somewhat. Yes. Like, that's okay. If we want more people engaging with the culture of movies, see the first hour and a half of this podcast, then sure. As many, you know, glitzy ceremonies being like, hey, look over here. Watch. It was just an accident as we can get.

1:19:11I agree. I mean, it's... I like the idea of celebrating the artists, obviously. I'm for that. And if it means more exposure and money for them, I'm for that. It's silly. It's also... There's an obviation going on right now. White Lotus also got a lot of nominees. So a bunch of people will tune in for that. And then maybe they'll learn about a film, which is great. So leveraging TV brain for the purposes of teaching people about movies. Yeah. What about podcast brain? Yeah. Amy Poehler. Good Hang with Amy Poehler nominated one of the five nominees. Congratulations to Amy. Yeah, the greatest. I'm very happy for her.

1:19:44Very happy for that show. That show is great. And it is a ringer show and a Spotify show. Yeah, I'm very grateful for all of the work that Amy has done in terms of advocating for cameras that look good on people. Got it. Thank you, Amy. Yes, thank you, Amy. Look better, I guess we should say. I don't know if you and I have gotten to good, but she looks great. I'll never get to good. CR's campaign for Ben Shapiro, shut down, denied. Tough, tough break for him. Yeah. He'd been going door to door. Right. To all of the... Well... Is it even the Hollywood Foreign Press Association? What is the name of the organization now?

1:20:21I think they are just the Golden Globes. Like, that's the name of the organization. Like, I'm Jim Golden Globe? Yeah. Okay. All right, cool. Let's briefly talk about it was just an accident. Okay. Okay? Through the less said until you've seen it, the better. I agree. I just want to maybe highlight a couple of things that I really like about this movie before throwing to our conversation with Jafar Panahi. So, written, directed by him, the cast includes Vahid Mubasari, Maryam Ashfari, and Ibrahim Azizi. Most of these actors are relatively unknown. This film was shot largely in secret, in part because of the experience that Panahi has been going through, which is slightly confusing where he served time in prison.

1:21:05He had a period of time in which he was under house arrest. He had a long travel ban, a 20-year travel ban. And he has been able to kind of navigate and negotiate around some of those things over that time during the period in which he was under house arrest. He made a film called This Is Not a Film. He made a film in 2015 called Taxi in which he just mounted a camera in a taxi and had a series of exchanges that may or may not be what really happened. He's an incredibly experimental filmmaker, but also a very traditional filmmaker. And this movie is much more traditional than what he has been making over the last 10 or 15 years because of the circumstances that he's been under in the regime.

1:21:45What did you think of it was just an accident? So I went in knowing almost nothing except that it was a thriller and that it won the Palme d 'Or. And I loved it. I mean, I was like very stressed out and it does that essential like thriller audience pleasing thing of there is a central question. And I didn't know. And I went back and forth throughout the film of where I think the various characters motive. I understood their motivations, but are they right? Are they wrong? How is this going to pan out? I don't know. and it does manage to keep, you know, wrong footing you as it adds people and complications to the process.

1:22:29There's also one extended. I mean, there are a number of very tense set pieces, but there's one in a hospital that I have thought about with nausea. If I had legs, I'd kick you, was the most nauseous I've been in a theater. This is a close second. And that's a companion for part of the same reason. Yeah, I mean, the framework of the movie is that a man and his family drive into a mechanic's office after they've gotten into an accident. And one of the men working in the mechanics notices that the man who has pulled in with his family may or may not be a significant and terrifying figure from his past.

1:23:14someone who is responsible for tremendous pain that has caused him and caused other people that he knows closely. And he sets out to figure out if this man is in fact his torture, the person who is responsible for all these terrible acts. And it becomes this kind of like Hitchcockian road comedy where you're really nervous and unsure of what is real and what is true and what is not true and whether or not they will be able to ascertain the truth. But as you said, they keep adding more and more characters and figures into this world, into this caravan that is traveling around Tehran. And it's like such a fascinating blend of tone.

1:24:00Because, you know, I come to it with a lot of this knowledge of Panahi's films and his filmmaking style. And some of his movies have a tension in them, but they're usually much more sort of like intellectually rigorous and exploring like what makes a movie. And this is a real movie movie. It is a narrative story. And like I was asking him questions when we were talking about like convention and, you know, how do you think about like plotting? And he was like, I don't really think about it that way. What matters is the idea that I'm really driving at. But it isn't that kind of movie. Like if people are concerned about checking this out because they're like an Iranian film and, you know, in a foreign language that is a world that I don't understand.

1:24:41and what do I have to know about the director? Like, you don't. You don't. You really, in order to click with it. And you learn a lot about the world. And really, there are, you know, it's incredibly like well-observed and the, you know, the tap to pay comes up several times. And I've thought about that a lot. Also, when you were, when we were fighting about who can dig a hole, that's immediately what I thought of. So there's a lot that stays with you, but it is, you just want to find out what happened. that's and the way in which we find out yeah is also the way in which like it is one of we've been talking about what are the great endings of the movie endings of the year you know Marty Supreme one of the great endings what was the other movie you said that you thought was like absolutely dynamite you know If I Had Lakeside Kick you has an incredible ending One Battle After Another has an incredible ending like No Other Choice has an incredible ending there are a series of movies this year where you walk out going like wow nice yeah and this is not quite as uplifting I would say but it is incredibly impactful yeah And really delivers on the paranoia that is steeped deep inside of this movie.

1:25:45So, yeah, this is a wonderful film. And, you know, we've been saying, like, is there like an anatomy of a fall this year? I think this is it. Yeah, it's starting. Yeah. You know, people were really responding to it. And obviously they're very, I think, savvily locating what Panahi represents in the world at large. and how, you know, if you live under fascism or you live under a controlling theocratic state, what does it mean to try to be an artist and express yourself? And he is doing that in fascinating ways. I don't know what's going to happen to him in the long term. He talked a little bit about his time in prison before this when we spoke.

1:26:23But that aspect of things is very scary and very sad, but I hope that he is here through the duration of - I do as well, yeah. At least his campaign. but he's also, you know, his heart and his life and his family is in Iran. So he naturally wants to go back to his home. So it's a very complicated story. What an episode. Yeah, it's not done. It's not done. Let's go now to my conversation with Jafar Panahi.

1:26:51It is an honor to be joined by Jafar Panahi and his interpreter, Sheda Dayani. Thank you both for being here. So I wanted to start with this. It's fascinating to see your point of view and your filmmaking skill put towards a classical thriller a traditional thriller style Did you have any cinematic examples that you thought of while you were working on this film? I don't know where you have reached that you call it a thriller

1:27:24Usually it's my wife watching thrillers and whenever she wants to watch them I run away

1:27:36because I can't really tolerate thrillers that's so surprising to hear because I was very taught throughout this movie for me there is no fear in it

1:27:56Because what my wife watches is full of killing and blood and murder and I don't associate with that. That's what I call a thriller. It's funny to hear you say that though because it does conjure the idea of revenge, which is something you see in lots and lots of American films. Does that word feel appropriate to you for this film? I really think that themes such as revenge and forgiveness are only on the surface and they're there to move the plot forward.

1:28:50Such themes will not take you deep down into the film. They will only remain on the surface and they will move you maybe just through the story.

1:29:03My issue was not that. My issue was raising other questions that are the need of our society.

1:29:20What can we do?

1:29:30The question is, is the cycle of violence going to continue as before and keep repeating itself?

1:29:43Or is there a point where we decide to end it?

1:29:50So those themes of revenge and forgiveness are just introductions and preambles to get to this one question. The film takes this interesting approach of a dialectic among five characters who all seem to represent different points of view on what you just described. Can you talk about finding a way to craft real characters while also representing all of these different ideas that the film is exploring?

1:30:24I think it's quite easy because you can find examples of those characters both within the society and I also saw them when I was in prison.

1:30:42When a society is shitting, these characters automatically will rise.

1:30:54And everyone thinks of how to get to the final question.

1:31:08You can come across such encounters on virtual spaces, on the society itself very easily.

1:31:18So you can easily select them, put them in the script, and now you just have to find the dialogues between them.

1:31:38And the different viewpoints of the characters, different thoughts of the characters, are also helping with moving the story forward. Because sometimes they're in contradiction and sometimes they're in line. What does the story want? These are exactly what moves the story forward. What about finding the right actors? I recognized a couple of the actors from previous work, but working in secret, casting must be challenging. How do you do that? Yes, but what matters to me initially is the actor's physical appearances to match the characters. The first thing that the audience sees is the physical characteristics of an actor.

1:33:00And the question is how much those physical characteristics can bring the audience along in the first moments?

1:33:24For instance, Vahid has a problem. He goes to someone and he asks for help.

1:33:38And the character who is at the bookstore and seems to be a few steps forward introduces another person.

1:33:52And gives the audience an idea about the coming character. Whatever she says, listen to her.

1:34:07So the audience has it in their mind that the character whom Vahid is going to has certain charisma. And can be influential.

1:34:24Meaning you see a leader in advance. But this character that we see from Shiva, we need to see this character in her face. So the first shot that we see of Shiva, we have to see that character and personality in her face. The way she conducts herself, the way she walks, the way she looks, they all make a difference.

1:35:02When you have all these in your mind, then you look and ask, whom can you trust?

1:35:22I remembered that when I was helping a friend of mine on a set of his film, I met his assistant and I realized that she could be a good fit.

1:35:44And because that film was made in the style of my films, Underground, I knew that I could trust that actor.

1:36:00Most of my actors either had not acted before or they had acted in clandestinely made films. I wanted to ask about Shiva. At first I was surprised that there was not a filmmaking component to the movie and then it occurred to me that she's a photographer. Is there a significance in Shiva being a photographer?

1:36:34I don't explain this in the film, but in fact, Shiva and the character of the bride were both journalists.

1:36:46Vahid says at some point that he had read the report.

1:36:53And he makes a reference to the bride.

1:37:08I thought that when they wrote that report, there must have been a journalist and a photojournalist. And that's why she came into the story. And the context is that they would have gone to prison, they would have been banned from working in journalism, and now she's out and she's doing just photography. Can you talk a little bit about balancing tone? This struck me as perhaps ironically one of your funniest movies and the subject matter is obviously incredibly intense and it seems difficult to balance tone. How do you think about doing that when you're making a film?

1:38:03You know, anything that happens in the daily life, usually at the end of the day, you have some smiles going on too. In this very interview that we're doing now, at the beginning, we tried to smile even if we were faking it. So we tried to make some laugh. Just so we could bring the audience along. Speak for yourself. I'm not faking it.

1:38:46So this tone of laughter, smiles, humor has been combined into the film itself. And this makes it in the genre of realism. And it makes it believable. So how would we not expect it? How would we expect it to not be in the film? It also makes the subject matter more tolerable. Especially because I really did want this to be in the film, this tone of laughter, to be in the film until the very last 20 minutes of the film. I wanted the last 20 minutes to be very influential. To the point that when the audience leaves the theater, they would still be thinking about the film.

1:39:57So I had to make some kind of a difference in tones in film so that the film would not be monotonous.

1:40:11Imagine those parts that had humor without humor, without smiles. And that way the film would be monotonous until the last, also in the last 20 minutes, and it wouldn't have the impact that it does now. Because there was no difference in tone. I'd like to hear you talk a little bit about the difference between fact and fiction and our sense of what is really happening and whatnot. Your last few films are exploring the balance between what's real and not real. This film, that's also part of the character's pursuit. Did the work on those movies inform writing this movie? Of course they did help.

1:41:08No film is pure reality. You are only inculcating reality.

1:41:23A filmmaker gets inspired by realities. Then the filmmaker brings those inspirations into their imagination, develops it in their imagination, and then brings it back into another form of reality.

1:41:43And in this game, you try to inculcate reality. In fact, this story never happened. It just happens in your imagination. But based on what? Based on real preferences. or based on imagination that you have had before.

1:42:25And based on experiences that you have had before, such as you're being blindfolded in the prison, someone walking behind you and you're hearing the sound of footsteps and them giving you a pen and a paper and asking you questions. And now it's just your auditory sense that is working at its peak.

1:42:59You're only reconstructing reality based on the sounds you hear. You're thinking, how old is this person behind me? What does he look like?

1:43:12If I see him outside, would I recognize him?

1:43:18So this game has already started.

1:43:26And when you write about the same issue, then the scheme becomes increased and highlighted. When you were in prison, did you take very specific notes so that you could find a way to reproduce or reimagine these experiences in your work?

1:43:46I really was not thinking about making films in prison. It was not even in my mind that I would one day make a film about this. I just wanted the time to pass. We were talking with one another. We were having empathy for each other. We were talking about our experiences. past time.

1:44:31This is, this kept continuing and it was only outside prison that you kept thinking you have to do something.

1:44:46And that was because of the fact that I had lived with a number of people for some time in prison and I could not forget them.

1:44:59They had occupied somewhere in my mind and I just wanted to let go of those experiences.

1:45:10Or I just wanted to unload a very heavy burden that was on my shoulders. And it was the burden of thinking that I am outside and my friends are still in prison. And I realized I have to do something. And because I knew nothing other than film. filmmaking than I thought I'm going to make a film about them. One scene that really resonates for me is the moment when they're on the roof and approached by security and the security guard or the officer pulls out a credit card machine, which is incredibly specific. I'm wondering if you could talk about where that sequence comes from.

1:46:09The one characteristic of regimes that don't have a specific clear structure is that corruption has run its roots in everything.

1:46:36We were in prison. We were in a group of about 300 maybe. I don't remember 300 prisoners. It was only 30 or 40 of us who were political prisoners.

1:46:50And others had sentences for financial crime.

1:46:59Or the fact that any office that you go to, anywhere you go to, you have to somehow bribe people.

1:47:11The polite way of saying it is that you have to tip people or you have to, you are forced to tip people.

1:47:30But this is of course a minute detail compared to the bigger corruption charges that are happening.

1:47:58I remember I was driving through an intersection and when there was a red light, one of these, one or two of these children, children of labor came to my car.

1:48:16And they wanted to clean my windshield and they even started pouring water on it to start cleaning it.

1:48:29I asked one of them, son, please don't touch the car, please don't do this. And he kept doing what he wanted to do. I said to him, nobody carries cash around and I don't have any cash to give you.

1:48:49He said, it's okay, I have a credit card machine.

1:49:03Of course, myself and friends who collaborated with me on writing this script have had similar experiences and they somehow made their way into the film. During that sequence and a few others, I thought of your friend Abbas Kiyostami a bit while watching the movie. I wonder, was he on your mind while you were working on this? What do you think you would make of this movie? I don't know. He's no longer with us.

1:49:36I don't know if he would like the film or not. Do you hope that he would?

1:49:45Naturally, you want everyone to like your film. You've said in the past that you felt you couldn't make a film outside of Iran because you don't know the culture outside of your home country. You've been traveling this past year? Are your ideas changing about that at all? But this is not traveling. I'm either on the plane or I'm in a room like this. Where am I in contact with people?

1:50:25Sometimes they get my hotels in neighborhoods that are not crowded or not among people. They say this is nice. It's a very luxurious, fancy hotel.

1:50:47But I really want to be among people. I want to be in the crowds.

1:50:59Please get my hotel in areas where if I have 10 minutes or one hour I could just meet people.

1:51:09But our friends, because they're very kind to me, they take me to other neighborhoods. If anyone could make an interesting movie about promoting a movie, though, given Taxi, given this is not a film, I think that you could do that. I don't know what that means. I don't know. I don't know how to make that. Have you figured out what you are doing next?

1:51:37I just know that I have to make a film about war.

1:51:47There was a time about 15 years ago that I tried really hard for five years to make a project, to make a film project.

1:52:03It was not a film that I could make underground because it is or it was a big production. I had written the initial script. But I couldn't make it. But with everything coincides. on in the world, it really scares me.

1:52:32And it tells me that I have to make a humanistic film about war. Not to make a war movie, but to make a socially engaged movie with the subject matter of war.

1:52:58Just like it was just an accident, I do not consider it a political film. I consider it a social film with a political subject matter.

1:53:19Sometimes I get a chance on these trips and in these far away hotels that they book for me. to sit down and work on my scripts about the war. Would a film like that have to be made differently than what you've been doing in recent years? No, as I said, it's going to be a socially engaged film with the subject of war. So, how do you think it's a big production? No, no. It's not a big production. It cannot be made clandestinely. Absolutely not.

1:54:06It needs a big production, a lot of budget and a lot of resources. Does the success of this movie make that more possible for you?

1:54:20I really don't look at making films as such. I always say to myself, I believe in this film and I have to make it. And I have to just find a solution for it.

1:54:43And I don't know when that solution will come, how, and at what time. Jafar, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen. I know you've been traveling and staying in hotels, but have you seen anything great lately?

1:55:10The last film I saw was an Iranian film that had been reconstructed.

1:55:20It is by Bahram Beyzaei, Maestro Beyzaei, and it is called Bashu, A Little Stranger. And in fact, that too is about war. That's a great recommendation. Thank you very much.

1:55:40Okay, thank you to Jafar Panahi. Thank you to his interpreter. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this epic episode. We'll be back on Wednesday to talk about Noah Baumbach's new film, Jay Kelly. What else? What else is going on with you? You got to go to a parent-teacher conference. I do. Yeah, I'm trying to... You got to go see Hamnet again. Yeah. I got a lot of movies to watch. Yeah. And a lot of podcasting with you. And going to meet Santa at some point. Oh, shit. and just you just solo yeah just solo you gotta sit on his lap uh-huh uh-huh and um trying to lock down that jacket you know greatest mommy you're getting online now okay we'll see you on Wednesday

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