‘Wicked: For Good’ Is No Good. But ‘Train Dreams’ Is.

18:05Like it had so much importance to me. I'll bet. So much. Did you enjoy the carnival that album by Wyclef John? You have, you have no idea to the extent you could like break a CD from over, over use. that's where I was at the carnival. Listen, he directed both Cry Me a River and Jenny from the Block.

18:24Sean Fennessey:Yes. Yeah. This is, no, it's incredibly important. He directed Back at One by Brian McKnight. He directed Warning by Green Day. I mean, this guy had range as a music video director. Adia by Sarah McLachlan. Sure. Like, it's kind of shocking. Like, he has such a big impact. Unrelated to the videography of Frances Lawrence, but just related to music videos and Juliet being here, I recently saw the music video for Justin Timberlake's Mirror. for the first time. Sure. Isn't it mirrors? He's like holding his arms out. Right. But then there's like the old couple that has, I don't really know what's going on.

18:56I was quite taken aback. It was a strange time. Why did you see that video? I was getting my nails done. And that's what happens. Is that the thing that I just play music videos. Yeah. And you watch them and you're like, huh, that's the world we lived in.

19:08Sean Fennessey:It really all came tumbling down with the 2020 experience. That was like, he was really riding a wave and then it just completely toppled. Yeah. Anyhow, that's a whole other podcast we could do about growing up listening to pop music in the 90s and 2000s. Should we pivot to Wicked for good? I'm ready. Okay. So this, as I said, is the second installment in the Wicked films. It's again directed by John M. Chu, screenplay by Winnie Holzman and Dana Fox. It's based on Wicked by Stephen Schwartz and Winnie Holzman, the smash stage musical, which is also based on the novel Wicked by Gregory Maguire.

19:40Sean Fennessey:Now, as I said, last time Juliet and I spoke about the first Wicked film, I've not read the novel, I've not seen the stage show. I come to this learning all of the material in real time as I'm seeing the movie. I think that's true for you as well. We're learning and we're growing all together. I am shrinking. I am shrinking all the time. May I just say that last year's episode about the first installment, Wicked, just that's the title, right? Just Wicked. That you and Julia did together while I was on leave was wonderful and very insightful. And I recommend that anyone who did not listen to it, seek that out before joining us for part two.

20:20That's really nice, Amanda. Thank you.

20:22Sean Fennessey:I learned a lot. I mean, Juliette, maybe you should just restate your bona fides before we start talking about the second installment. Yeah, sure. I am Juliette. I am Amanda's co-host of Jam Sessions. Well, you don't have to go all the way back to the beginning. I really love Wicked, the musical, the stage show. I also like in general love musicals as a feeling, as an experience, as an idea, as a medium. I think they're like important and special and like love the opportunity to get in touch with my inner theater kid. And Wicked really draws that out. It has for like, you know, millions upon millions of people.

21:00So I'm not alone. And yeah, I'm definitely not like a Broadway expert, but I am a Broadway super fan. And also just like have the benefit of growing up in New York and having been able to see a lot of musicals, which I feel like just is an unfair advantage.

21:13Sean Fennessey:So is there anything you want to state about yourself before we start discussing this film? I was on leave for Wicked Part 1. I did see it in theaters. Yeah, you were canvassing for the Republican Party during that time. And then I guess we spoke about Wicked, the original. You came on like a house on fire when you came back. Sure. You had some strong words for the film. I did too. I really did not like the first film. But like you, I am not a person who has seen the stage show. I think generationally for me and Juliet, it was definitely a thing for a lot of people. You guys are two years younger than me.

21:53I'm four years younger than you. Right. That was also my way of seeing like for girls, you know, without being like super gendered. And also, I don't mean to exclude the many men who also feel a real connection to the show. but but it was a thing and like our jam session producer Jade Whaley is also a huge wicked head because they did it a version of it in her high school is that right Juliette? I don't want to I believe so right so it's a phenomenon the show was big and yeah and it was it's so big it's been around for so long it's now been 21 years it had like multiple national tours and it still sells out all the time in New York and you know I think I think it's been to like every major city in the world.

22:37There's been a production of Wicked. It's an international phenomenon. Right. And but I was not a part of that phenomenon. Don't I had Defying Gravity, which is the song from the first act, the climactic song that closes the first installment had like made its way to me. Like, you know, I know who Idina Menzel and Kristen China with are, but I was not a part of this and didn't really seek it out before Wicked the film or this adaptation, I should say.

23:05Sean Fennessey:Okay, we've cleared the decks on all those. Anything else you want to know, Julia? Yeah, I just wanted to add one other thing, which is that I think I have an unpopular opinion of I love the second act of Wicked. I like really enjoy a lot of the songs in it. And I think the kind of conventional idea is the first act is much better, but I actually really love act two. I think the music is great. We'll talk about the songs. There's, everyone loves For Good. It's like, you know, it's like part of the American songbook now. I also really love another song, which I'll save a big reveal. And so I was like excited about this movie because I really like the music I'll back to.

23:40Sean Fennessey:Okay. This new film essentially returns the entire cast from the previous film. That includes Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande who were both Academy Award nominated for their performances. Jonathan Bailey, Jeff Goldblum, Marissa Bode, Ethan Slater, Michelle Yeoh. They're all back. The story, you know, was literally cleaved in half at the end of the first film. I guess there was a sort of a cliffhanger and this movie picks up years later. I'm not quite sure how many years later. and we can talk about that. But Elphaba is now known throughout Oz as the Wicked Witch of the West. She's continuing to fight for animal rights in her journeys through Oz, living in a tree.

24:16Sean Fennessey:Glinda is now Glinda the Good. She is sort of like an avatar of the decency that Oz wants to present to this culture. The wizard is ruling alongside Madame Morrible. They are going to come to blows here because, you know, Elphaba needs to seek her revenge for the way that she's been betrayed. And also there's going to be some significant convergence with The Wizard of Oz 1939 film and its characters in this movie. Juliette, I'll start with you. What did you think of Wicked for Good? I found it frustrating. I just didn't know why a lot of the decisions were made. And I think there was like, as someone who loves the musical, there was two things in particular that really bothered me, which should I share them now?

25:00Sean Fennessey:If you'd like. Go for it. One, I think there's two. One is an execution and one is sort of like in principle. And I think one of the reasons people love For Good, the song, is because it really solidifies that the musical can be very heavily seen through this lens of friendship and like the idea of how much, you know, the women in your life can make a difference. And that's like the real love story. And I think there was also a lot of conversation around the first movie around sort of like the homoeroticism of the first one and the connection between Elphaba and Glinda. And I thought that was like interesting and also like a good take, if you will.

25:42I really found it so frustrating that there, like a lot of the fighting between Elphaba and Glinda, and there's like literal fighting, like the fight scene and everything, was, it felt so much more like the impact of Fiera was amplified and they were like fighting over a boy. whereas I really don't think that is such a strong theme in the musical and I was just like what the fuck is this? Like who cares about this guy made of straw now? I mean I think that like the musical Fiero is more interested in Elphaba than Elphaba is in him and like while they do have a love story it's not the main love story of the musical so I found that like super disappointing and then secondly in Execution this is a musical and it felt like they made a conscious decision to make a superhero movie and rush through the musical numbers.

26:35And I thought that like, thank goodness and as long as you're mine and for good, we're all super rushed and there was no like showstopper musical number. And that is just a crime in a musical movie.

26:50Sean Fennessey:So by frustrating, would you say you did not enjoy the movie or did you still have fun with it? No, I didn't. But I'm also like, was I in a bad mood? I'm like, I'm doing a lot of self-reflection on this because I really did not enjoy it. And I was like, maybe I was in a bad mood, but also I really think they fucked it up. Like, I really find it like sad. Can I respond to that? Just in the sense of I was baffled throughout this experience, much as I was during the first and much as I am when beholding the wicked extravaganza experience. I think I had more fun in this one. So I don't know why. I have some thoughts on what Juliet said.

27:34This is a wild zag.

27:35Sean Fennessey:A wild zag. I'm excited about it. I really did not have any fun in the first one. I was like very baffled by it. And then like, you know, as I said, a goat started singing. And also to Juliet's points about the music musical numbers. I thought that they were very poorly handled in the first. And the things like choreography and cinematography and how you communicate a musical on screen. I'm not as much of a stage musical person as Juliet, but we all know how much Hollywood and old Hollywood musicals mean to me. And I thought it was just like very jumbled, very confusing. I don't really love the songs, but I didn't think the songs were very well communicated.

28:16Like even Defying Gravity, which is this like triumphant number, they start the superhero stuff. They cut it through and she's like flying around. And then it turns out like they spoiled the ending and the trailer. So it was confusing. and there's also a lot of like expository setup in part one that I like didn't really know what was going on. This was at least on like a basic level legible of this person is against these other people and who is going to team up with who. And the lack of musical numbers, I think, honestly, was to its benefit to me because anytime they had like the full stage number and all the extras like doing their choreography uh-uh like I really I you know I think John Chu has directed like many much better musical adaptations and much better dancing and I don't care for this one and to your point about the the emphasis on Fiero versus the real love story being the friendship I not knowing anything once they actually do get to for good and are singing lovingly each other I think Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande are good in these movies despite everything else that's going on around them.

29:29And I had my like very, you know, dumb movie watcher moment sitting in there being like, oh, they're the real love story. That's beautiful. So in at least that case, it communicates it to me. It was also just so plot confusing that I had fun being like, wait, now what's going on? I'd like to ask you a lot of questions about how magic works in Oz, Juliet. Sure. I mean, just like, I don't know if I can answer, but I'll try. Right. I mean, And maybe there is no answer, but like, is Elphaba the only magical person? Like what, how does magic, how are magical powers bestowed? Certain people have them.

30:05Okay. And Elphaba's mother had them. Plus there's like this elixir. Right. The wizard has. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I remember we all. Her sister, Madame Morrible.

30:16Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Certain people have it. Many characters have it, yeah. Okay. But Elphaba has like more of it? She's just very powerful. Okay. Yeah. Which is explained at the end of the film why she's very powerful. We don't have to spoil that quite yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's fair to, I think it's reasonable to be confused by some of the plotting. Like, I have ocean waves of confusion about the plotting of this movie. And just like the, particularly the ways in which this movie is trying to retcon what The Wizard of Oz is. I mean, that stuff is just. It is like abominable to me. And I guess this has all been known because people have been reading this novel and seeing the stage show for years.

30:52Sean Fennessey:But this, as I said, this is all new to me. And so, you know, to start, I think Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande are good in this for the most part. But I don't think their performances are very well handled by the direction. And I think it's kind of number to number how much I even buy what's going on between them. So that's just like, that's at the forefront of the story. And a lot of people love the first movie. and you can already see in the reaction of this new movie that there's a lot of like either let down or frustration or outright kind of like god you really you fucked this you know but to me I'm just like this is just a continuation of where I was at the end of the first one which is that the films don't look very good the way that they're lit is bizarre given the amount of detail and time that has been put into the production design and costuming but to me the ultimate issue is just it feels like a real problem of story and that it has like completely upended something.

31:52Sean Fennessey:And this is just personal to me, but The Wizard of Oz is very personal to me. And what that book is about and what that movie is about are two very distinct things that found a way to kind of coexist. The book is this, you know, big allegorical story about really money in America in the late 1800s. Right. Follow the yellow brick road. Right. Which is all about the gold standard and the silver standard. And it's like a book about populism and, you know, it's all, in the text, if you read it, you can see it's like Animal Farm. It's just like, it's very clearly metaphorically about something in society.

32:24Sean Fennessey:The movie is not clearly about that. The movie is really more this like exploration of this girl's mind. And it's this fantasia. It's a dream sequence where people from her real life find their way into this dream world. It's like an amazing adaptation of a book. It's very different. And if the book mattered to you a lot, you might sound like me talking about The Wizard of Oz and the way that Wicked makes me feel. So again, I'll just say this is completely subjective to me. but the actual execution of the story is just so weird and stupid like I really can't believe that this is what this story is and that everyone loves this it makes me feel a little crazy following off what he said maybe as the wicked expert you could answer the question for us um what is the moral of wicked this stage like what how does it end and what are you supposed to take away with take away from it um the moral of wicked is that like you know power is abused to like ostracize a certain class of person or animal that's as and i forgot to note that there was far too many animals in wicked for good um and also the the the sense that is about the relationship like the whole the story of wicked is the story of alphaba and glinda and i think that like the first movie captured that in the marketing as well as in the movie pretty well and the second movie i think really loses that and i think the fact that like even for you amanda that like it took to like almost the end of act three of the movie to get the like oh this is the real love story like that is a real fumble um and i think part of that is because another i think failure of the movie is so many people are alone and they only like intersect with like someone else in the movie for like a big lurch forward.

34:11It's a really good point. And so it's just like a lot of parallel lines that then like swerved across. And so I think it's, you don't get that because you don't get sort of sense of like, any kind of like interconnectivity between these people. And I think it's also, Sean, why like it feels so insane that you're like, so that guy is now the Tin Man? You're like, what the fuck? It just feels so strained.

34:35Sean Fennessey:And like, they're really like bending so hard to try to make something fit into this world that they have decided to tell this story about these two characters. And but can I answer the, like how I perceive this story based on my limited experience of just Wicked and Wicked for Good? Yeah, I mean, I wanted her to speak to what the stage version is about because as we've discussed, this stage is a two act, two and a half hour show and this is four and a half hours. So a lot is added. And I don't really know how faithful this absolutely bonkers, baffling adaptation, which, like, I agree with you.

35:05I had a decent time, but I was like, what is going on? I mean, and where did the lion come from? But we'll get back to that. So, but I'm just curious about what all the people who love Wicked were actually responding to in the text.

35:21Sean Fennessey:Well, so you can tell me if this is also a critical part of the idea. This, even before I knew there was going to be a movie adaptation, just by looking at the cover of the book or images from the stage musical, my perception of this was just like, this is a story that is meant to see the world through the eyes of a villain and the way that someone who we understand to be a villain could be better understood with empathy. And that if you see what their experiences were and see how they got to the place where they are and see the way that society ostracizes like you're describing, that maybe we would have a little bit of a different perspective on how we all relate to one another.

35:56Yeah, but like, is that, so is Elphaba a villain though? I think she sort of like reclaimed. I think neither is really a villain or a hero. Like I think they kind of swap places frequently, Glinda and Elphaba. And I do think that like one of the reasons why the musical and the first movie are so popular is because people really find a lot of stories of acceptance like from identifying with Elphaba or identifying with like the animals or whatever.

36:28Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Yeah, and it just feels like completely spring-loaded to be projected onto the queer experience or communities that have been cast out. And so that character, the Elphaba character, and then it's kind of double-charged by shifting from Idina Menzel to Cynthia Erivo, a black performer, and then that loads the movie up even more so by saying like, hey, if you put that valence on it, this can be a very deep story, which I think has power. I think that conception of that idea is really interesting. And we're talking about comic book movies and superhero stuff. Like, this is something that good superhero stories can do.

37:01Sean Fennessey:They can say, like, you think that this person is the bad guy, the vigilante, but actual, I mean, that's fucking Batman. Batman is like, at the beginning of the Batman story, it's like, this fucking guy keeps thinking he can be better than a police officer. And then you see, so it's a very common structure. The problem that I have with it in this movie specifically is that it's totally undermined by the one-dimensionality of the wizard and Madame Morrible and the fact that, like, in order for a movie-to-movie there still has to be this undynamic good versus evil structure where you're like, what does the wizard even want?

37:34Sean Fennessey:Where does he come from? What does Madame Morrible want? What does she represent? Why do they hate animals? We don't know anything about all of this stuff. My friend Gilbert Cruz from the New York Times is like, what is the political structure of Oz? What am I even trying to... Seriously, who's the governor? But that's an inherited position? What's Munchkinland districting? I don't understand. I don't have a lot of answers on that. I was just going to say, like, I think that also for me, that's why I was so annoyed that Fierro's role, like when Glenda's crying over Fierro or like, you know, Fierro and Elphabed together, I was just like, this is such a distraction from like what this was like sort of supposed to be about and moved away from it.

38:14But to answer your question about the political structure of Oz, I think that also in part of the stretching and like for, I thought of this last year too, I always think of it as like silly putty. It's like, it's like when you print something on silly putty and then you, stretch it out so it's all still there. Yeah. That's exactly what this movie feels like to me. And I kind of cannot understand how the same writer wrote the stage musical that wrote the movie. Because I'm like, why would you destroy your own work this way? Like, I do not get it. Because they added, you know, they added in the two new songs.

38:45And I think that like, for whatever reason. Which are the two new, yeah. Yes. Ariana Grande's solo and Cynthia Erivo's solo that is not No Good Deed. I forget the name of it. I'll look it up in a second. But they each get a song for themselves. It's in the first half of the movie. So they use it for like exposition. No Place Like Home is one of the new songs. I wonder. I mean, yeah. Fucking heinous. I was like, this feels like they wrote this for a tie-in. Yeah. And I think that those two songs get the most like pause. They get the most gravity, excuse the pun, in the movie. Um, and I just think it's like a total waste.

39:29They contribute nothing and they're totally forgettable songs. Um, but I think in adding in all this extra stuff, you really lose the sense of the world and it feels so disconnected. Cause like, I thought that the reveal of Oz in the first movie was kind of exciting. You're like, oh, this is like this, you know, pretty like magical place and whatever. But then it just becomes like this like dark cave that it feels like they return to time and again. And you have like no idea what the geography is like either. They're like, how long does it take to get from Munchkinland to Oz? Like, I thought it took Dorothy a while on the yellow brick road.

39:58Are those the only two places in Oz? I believe there's others, but those are the two that we know of. Right.

40:04Sean Fennessey:Is Shiz located in Munchkinland? I don't know. Is this a different... These things, like, don't matter unless there's failure in the storytelling, which makes you ask those questions. That's really the point that I'm making, is, like, if you're going to build out this whole world and try to... Because nobody was watching The Wizard of Oz in 1939 and saying, like, what is the governing body of the wizard? Like the movie just swept you away, you know, and this movie doesn't sweep you away. This movie makes you go, what? Why is that happening? And that's a huge problem with the storytelling. And I think you're right that it's probably mostly in the scripting.

40:36Sean Fennessey:And it's a problem. Yeah. And I just think like they added in so much literalism too. It's just like, it doesn't need to be so literal. Like people will get it. I don't know. That's my whole thing with, with the Wizard of Oz components of it. because if you accept that both versions of the story are very metaphorical, then trying to understand why there's this desire, I honestly couldn't make heads or tails of it. I was watching it and I watched it with my four-year-old daughter and she was like, this is probably the best movie that has ever been made. There's just a tremendous amount of Glinda in this movie.

41:10Sean Fennessey:This is very much Glinda's movie. The pink dresses are wonderful. The bubble is crack. There's things in the movie, of course, that are cool. Like there's really cool design in this movie. Some of the songs are good. I do think For Good is really, really good. We listened to that in the car as soon as we went home. It's not like a zero. The movie is not like a disaster, but it raised such frustration, which is the first word that you used, Juliette. Yeah. And such, I just found it really enervating trying to understand what it's trying to accomplish. Well, I mean, I agree. And that's why I asked Juliette, what is at least the original stage production that has resonated with millions of people?

41:47trying to accomplish because the movie could not communicate it to me. And let's be clear, once they bring in like their Reddit Easter egg Wizard of Oz tie-ins, preposterous. Just absolutely silly, you know?

42:01Sean Fennessey:Yeah. So is Dorothy a component in the stage musical? Yes, but not like, someone like plays her, but you like only see like allusions to her. Like she's not like a walking body like she is in Wicked for Good. Yeah. I mean, she's kind of introduced as like a side villain in this story. It's like, this is just some girl who landed in a tornado. It literalizes the tornado and like the bridge between worlds. Like it's very like Thor, the dark world where you're like, she could ride on a rainbow all the way to Oz. Like that's not what this fucking Wizard of Oz is about. It's a dream. Am I crazy? No, and then she literally kills Elphaba's sister who's definitely like a petty fascist.

42:43So again, I don't understand And how she got her power to enact all of that.

42:48Sean Fennessey:Because her mother was magical. No, her father was the governor and she inherited the job from the father, which I read on like one of the little poster news printouts like Munchkin Gazette or whatever. But I don't. Two different definitions of power. Amanda's referring to her political power. Yes. Sean's referring to her wizardry. Right. Exactly. You served as the opinion editor at the Munchkin Gazette for six years or nine years. How long was it? No, I was working on the tabloid that the SpongeBob steals at some point to learn that he has to go to the wedding. His name is Bok. All right. OK.

43:22Sean Fennessey:B-O-Q. OK. So they literally kill her. Uh-huh. And then also she's like, so Dorothy is like a murderer in the text of Wicked for Good. and then when they finally get to the song for good, she is just like a real girl trapped in a basement cellar, like in a cellar suffocating for the extent of like three songs and I kept being like, but Dorothy can't breathe and you're going to have to let her out if you want everything else to continue. So they really literalized it way too much for me. In terms of it being stretched, can you give me an example besides the two songs of something that's been added to this story like is there a set piece or a because going from two and a half hours to four and a half hours yeah is insane and i just want to pitch like a theory about this because the first act is so important and so big and the first film is two hours and 40 minutes i wonder if there's just a ton of padding in the back half so that the second movie turned out to be not one hour and 27 minutes which would seem uneven relative to the previous kind of expansive epic experience of the first film.

44:36Well, I even just felt like the last 10 minutes, I was like, it's taken a really long time to get her back in that bubble that we saw the beginning of the first movie. I think the way that it stretches, like they just add in, like there was more around As Long As You're Mine, which is like the love song between Elphaba and Jonathan Bailey, Fierro, which I, and like, I think that they really they do this in both movies they kind of interrupt the songs to have some movie action and then go back to the song so i would say they sort of like add in scenes like here and there without and then the two wholesale new songs but so it's not necessarily like this is like a brand new thing but it's like along the path they add in extra scenes of how they got there and then the main thing i would say that is really really turned up is the animals like there's not there's not like all of these confrontations with the animals.

45:27Elphaba does like find Dr. Dillamund, the goat again, and like realize that he's, you know, can't speak or whatever. But there's just way, way, way more animal interactivity. And there's not really like, as I recall, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't really recall the equivalent of like a Noah's Ark kind of scene happening in the stage show. So this thing where the goat can't speak is text-based and not that Peter Dinklage was no longer available. That's correct. I definitely thought I was like, oh, they didn't want to, there was like a scheduling or a money thing. And I know they filmed this all at once, but that's what I assumed.

46:02No, it's canon, if you will.

46:05Sean Fennessey:I'm genuinely astonished by your soft zag on Wicked for Good because there's so much animal stuff in it. I know you hated that in the first film. Well, they don't sing. And they don't sing. I have a question about that. Sure. Why do the animals forget how to speak? when they're in captivity? I think that they, like, do something to them, like, give them, like, drugs or whatever. Okay, do we see that at some point? To maim them. No, I don't think so. Okay, so we just have to assume that, like, because their, like, animalhood has been taken from them that they can no longer speak? I think so. I mean...

46:40What is this world? As you know, I'm not pro-animal, so that's very tricky for me. It's the same, like, we should be nice to them. You know, they shouldn't suffer. And obviously they're like in a very amorphous metaphor here, you know, for like all things that are...

46:56Sean Fennessey:You dismissively saying animals should not suffer is really... You guys are bordering on evil. Like animals are obviously incredibly important to this ecosystem and to our ability to relate to living creatures. But so the animals. So there's the Noah's Ark scene, but that nice bear needs to talk to Elphaba. And that's like a point of family connection. I'm also softer on bears because of Paddington right now. Sure. That's big in our house. So I guess those other animals were wandering around, but like that didn't read to me as like the animals have taken control. There was no goat singing. Also, you know, I had seen the original Wicked, so I knew that a goat singing was a possibility.

47:36Then there's the scene with the cages. But like that was pretty quick, you know? Yeah, but even that, like I think stretches it out. And then I think a lot of the stuff between Elphaba and Fierro is also sort of, are there animals? But there aren't animals in that. No, but I'm just saying in terms of what's longer. But there are some that Noah's Ark scene, maybe I just hated it. I was like, this feels long. And I think there's some other times where Elphaba's alone. That was my takeaway. Elphaba's alone a lot. She definitely has saved the animals scribbled on various posters in her tree room just for her.

48:16Sean Fennessey:Yeah, big time Krasinski whiteboard in a quiet place energy there where it's like I'm pretty sure she'd remember to save the animals if that was the guiding principle of her life for several years in which she was living in exile this movie is idiotic guys what is going on another thing that I think was just like stretched out was like the fight scene which I thought in some ways was really charming like they do like meet again after you know Nessa dies and everything but like that was stretched out too like there's just like more fluff in there there's not like Glenda there's not like one of them just like looking around and then the other arrives like they just they just add stuff in like at every juncture basically every stop along the way to make it feel longer um yeah in the play or in the musical why so Nessa turns evil because uh of Bach yeah oh because of Bach because she's been rejected yeah oh okay because she's in love with him yeah okay and he's in love with Glenda got it yeah And he finally comes clean about that.

49:17Sean Fennessey:And then she, you know, creates like an ice-like circumstance in which all the munchkins are not allowed to leave the country. Right, right. And that whole plot line is extremely strange. And that explains why the munchkins are extremely happy that the Wicked Witch of the East has been killed. Like, these are the kind of plot contrivances that like happen over and over again in the last hour of this movie. The same with Bach becoming the Tin Man where Nessa Rose channels her hidden magical powers to make him a man made of tin. Because why? What happens is, and so this is also stretched. In the musical, I believe, I'm sorry if I get some of this wrong.

49:57I'm very afraid of the Wicked fandom. But I believe in the musical, Nessa is holding, like won't let Bach leave, but has not created this ice-like conditions. It's more focused on Bach. And she's less dictatorial, though she is, you know, grieving the loss of her father and very focused on Bach. But it is almost, that is the actual, like, this boy doesn't love me. That's not Glinda. It's Nessa Rose. And so what happens is Bach tries to leave. And then she tries, Nessa casts a spell to, like, change how his heart feels. And then to save the botched job by Nessa Rose. because Elphaba accidentally turns into the Tin Man.

50:40Sean Fennessey:But like, why a man made out of tin? Like in the novel... Because he doesn't need a heart. That's what she says. She's like, don't worry, he's not going to need a heart in this new one because the Tin Man wants the heart, you know? I mean, I didn't write it. It's just so straining. I know, I know. It's just so straining. I honestly, when Fierro shows up at the Scarecrow was when I was just like, get out of here. Because that happens at the very end of the musical, if I recall correctly. Like he's not really in it that much after as long as you're mine. and sort of like a reveal. Part of the reveal of the end is that they get to be together.

51:09It's not just like, oh, she's alive, but like that's more clear. Also, there's no like Terrence Malick imagery of like walking across the horizon in the stage musical. I was like, oh, so we've moved into Dune 3. Like, I was just like, this is not for me. But that is all like, you know, extended as well. And I think, you know, you guys talked about Ariana Grande and like how she's still so good in this. she is. She's really robbed of the best song. Like in the musical, it starts with Thank Goodness, which is like this really rueful song. Amanda and I previewed this on Jam Session. I was really looking forward to it.

51:45It's such a beautiful song about faking happy, basically. And like, you think you're happy, but you're actually not. And, you know, she seemingly has everything that she wants. And in the musical, it's like, so it's not just about like, oh, you finally engaged to this guy. Like, great. It's more about like, you have everyone's adoration and you're in charge, but she's like still not that happy. And I feel like they just, they took away all of the nuance. So the fact, like you're Sean, you're right. The fact like we're questioning all these plot points is because there's no like ambiguity to live in here.

52:15Nothing that's like fun to be like, well, maybe it's this or maybe it's that. It's just trying to tie everything up

52:19Sean Fennessey:that is part of what is magical about the film. But if you know the book, you know that there's rational explanations for why those characters exist. Like the Tin Man and the Scarecrow are metaphors for industrial workers and farmers. Like, that's the idea. And so you can, like, port that idea over to the movie where you're like, they live on a farm. There's this time of, like, economic crisis in America in the 1930s. Like, there's all of these things that make coherent sense so you accept the magical quality of the story. This movie is like, we're going to tie up all those loose threads. So you can be like, here's why he's a tin man.

52:53Sean Fennessey:That's not important. That's not interesting. And the movie goes to great lengths. But then furthermore, like, I had this experience because after the movie's over, my daughter is like, wait so why is Fierro the scarecrow and so now she's gonna go back and watch the Wizard of Oz and be like that's Fierro I'm like that's not fucking Fierro that's some guy who works on Dorothy's farm all right come on why are we doing this I'm sorry I could not do this episode without just being like you have mangled something that is very true and very deep and you have ruined it I'm sorry I think that's what you know I've said this before I'm not I don't have an emotional connection to the Wizard of Oz and I think Wicked is better enjoyed like separate from the Wizard of Oz because then you don't have to carry any of like the burden of like well this is actually how it goes in this true classic so I actually would have been content to do that I think as much as I could have if it didn't insist that it actually was the Wizard of Oz you know and that is really what the final hour of the movie is about I mean and like Dorothy's running around and like the profile is just not Judy Garland's.

53:57I agree. And like they skated too close, but then they do a whole shadow thing and you understand why. But I was like, nope, I can tell that the profile, I don't understand most of the illusions, but I was completely baffled by the ruby slipper stuff and I'd like to talk about it.

54:13Sean Fennessey:Right. So in this version of the story, the ruby slippers, who do they actually go to? Nessa Rose at first. Well, yeah, they're Nessa Roses. And they're white. They're not red. Another thing with silver you'll find. Silver. And they become red when she channels her magical powers or channels her rage. Or Elphaba gives them power, right? Yes. Yeah. Elphaba, just like, I'm going to make you happy by helping you walk or levitate. And feel the way you felt when Bach liked you or something. But do we see Dorothy wearing them and they're silver at a certain point? So why is that? She sets off on the yellow brick road and they're silver.

54:51And they're silver for the rest of the time. I don't know.

54:52Sean Fennessey:What does that represent? I'm sure there's wicked heads who know. They don't have the power anymore is my guess. Like when they're not helping you feel a certain way or something. I don't know. It was very confusing. I don't have an explanation. What? I don't know. I'm sure there's an idea there that I'm not getting, but to make such a dramatic and iconic change is very odd. But then there's like the close-up of her walking away with the silver shoes and the little socks. Yeah. And I was like, that's on trend, but they're not red. Can we talk about the ending? Thank you, Juliet. You sure can. I mean, first of all, the 45 endings.

55:28Truly what on God's earth is happening at the end of this film? Well, okay.

55:33Sean Fennessey:So at the, I don't know if this is, what number ending this is for you, but nearer to the end, we learn that Elphaba, when she is actually, when she's been melted by Dorothy, when she throws water on her at the end of The Wizard of Oz, that she actually faked her own death, pulled a kind of now you see me situation where she went into a trap door. where Dorothy was previously suffocating to death while they sang for good let me ask before we do that was Dorothy in on the plot? I don't think so on the faking of the death I don't think so I don't think so it doesn't seem that way so then Elphaba just ask me questions no bad questions at a brainstorm which is literally what the script of this movie is but it's like so Elphaba fakes her own death so that she can run off with the scarecrow and have sex forever in solitude.

56:23Sean Fennessey:But she can never return to Oz and she can never be accepted and she's willing to live in infamy for eternity as a true representation of evil in Munchkinland while Glenda gets to exist as the beautiful, perfect white avatar of grace and decency inside of this world. But she lets the animals come out of their hovels. Right. But like, what is that message? What the hell is the movie trying to tell us? Well, I think Glinda has been changed for good and she'll be leading with goodness. So Elphaba and her values and morals will live on through Glinda, as you noted, the white savior, not green. But there's a moment where Glinda could say, no, she was my friend.

57:12Sean Fennessey:And she actually wasn't that bad, but she chooses to say, I knew her. Because I knew you. See, even I knew it. Even I got it. Why, if Glinda has learned the lessons of Elphaba, why would she not say to the munchkins, no, actually, Elphaba was decent, and she was thrust into this power game by the wizard. She's still figuring it out, you know? She can only be her, but she's trying to be a good version of her. Glinda the good. I don't disagree. Does the musical end like this? Yes, it does. I had the same... The only... The other credit I'll give to the film is that there was about four minutes there when I thought that the film, I don't know, I was living in a delusional dream state, much like this film, but I thought it was going to end with the first ending.

58:00And so I was like, what? Elphaba just dies? What the fuck is that? But it at least had me, you know, in its grip of like, oh, wow, they're killing off Elphaba. I don't know if this lesson is any better, which is she's not dead. She's just like getting it on with the scarecrow. So I'd like to talk about their, well, I'd like to talk about all of them. But what is the line? It's not lying. It's looking at things through different eyes. Right. I find that condescending and upsetting.

58:29Sean Fennessey:But that's the whole theme of the movie. Sure. But like that's not, it's what about use your own eyes to a different understanding, dumbasses. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. All right. The real news. That's some Tucker Carlson shit right there. There's only one truth. I was like, that is a really mean thing to say to both people. I did also feel that turning Jonathan Bailey into the Scarecrow was upsetting for me personally because that man is adorable. Just not enough Jonathan Bailey in this movie. He's so disappointing. He's so wonderful. He didn't really pop for me in the first one. In the second one, I was like, oh, look at this guy.

59:04He's so great. Every time he's on Ken's screen, I'm like, okay, this is nice. Same. He's so charming.

59:10Sean Fennessey:I can't say that wasn't the most credible post-sex scene I've ever seen in a movie. I'm just going to put that out there. I wasn't like, wow, they definitely just banged. There was not a lot of heat between those two actors. Absolutely none. But I still was like, I was interested enough that I did think to myself, I guess I should watch this season of Bridgerton while watching. No, just go back and watch season two. No, that's what I meant. His season. His season of Bridgerton because you talk about it so much and you're like, he's great. It's so good. So I'm pro-Dodd and Bailey, but so the double whammy of, number one, they've, like, retconned the scarecrow into this.

59:44Because, I don't know, they care about farmer's rights or whatever. And then...

59:49Sean Fennessey:They don't. That's the point. I know. They're like, this guy can be saved by making him a scarecrow? But then they've also put, like, all of this Patrick on him and the crazy, you know, scarecrow wig. Like, shout out to hair and makeup, who had quite a time and are doing great work. But I was like, no, I want to see Jonathan Bailey. But that is why I came to the theater. The whole part where he gets a brain from the wizard in The Wizard of Oz. And then does that actually happen in this world? And then does he have a brain with Elphaba? Or is he just a brainless scarecrow who's going to he's like a fuck buddy forever with no like ability to make decisions?

1:00:28They don't literalize the Dorothy travel party in the musical stage version.

1:00:33Sean Fennessey:Okay. And so you don't really have to ask this question. You're just sort of like, oh, they've been reunited. But they literally show us this in the movie, though. Yeah, exactly. It's sort of... So he's not the scarecrow. What did you say? He's not the scarecrow in the stage musical. He is, but they don't have you like these interstitials of Dorothy and the scarecrow and the lion and the tin man walking down the yellow brick road and then arriving in Oz. You don't really see this stuff happening. Like, you're not part of their journey in Wicked, the stage musical. So it's, like, not a distraction.

1:01:03Sean Fennessey:I just want to say, so maybe so listeners understand, like, I do get that the stage musical can kind of exist as extra textual, like, outside of the experience of the novel and the original film. And you can be like, this is its own standalone thing. It's like a reinterpretation of this mythology and this world. And I would have been totally cool with that if the movie didn't bend over backwards in an incredibly, like, base cheap marketing way to be like this is the Wizard of Oz and just so you know this is what the Wizard of Oz is actually all about and what they want is the reaction of your wonderful four year old daughter to go home and be like well now I guess I gotta look for Fierro yes exactly in the 1939 Wizard of Oz that to me is the mistake of the movie that makes me kind of crazy on this episode where I'm just like why are you making me think about all this stuff if you don't really have the follow through in terms of the connective tissue I'm sorry to name names but I think that's a John M.

1:01:53Chu problem and as you know I'm a long time fan of John M. Chu but But I read a lot of his interviews, and I think that he has said he's a huge fan of The Wizard of Oz. And I feel like he had a desire to really make his mark on this version of Wicked by integrating The Wizard of Oz in more fully. He teased it in the press tour around the first movie. He came back to it time and again. And I really feel like, obviously, he didn't write the script. But I do think there's a lot of ways in which The Wizard of Oz is involved in a non-scripted way where you're just seeing it. And I really think those are a lot of his choices.

1:02:29I guess I am blaming him, but I'm just maybe trying to explain why I think that comes up so much.

1:02:34Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I mean, the movie itself is obviously like, it's an ingenious thing that Universal has done by splitting this into two parts, by making an event out of it. They marketed it so brilliantly for the first film last year. The connection between Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo. I heard you guys talking about that terrible thing that happened to Ariana Grande on Jam Session. Like, their bond is cool. Like, I like that in the world. They've become close. All of that stuff is really smart. It's just, um... And it's the Avengers-ification now of like stories outside of that stuff. But like I didn't invent comic book movies, you know?

1:03:07Sean Fennessey:Like me liking comic book movies doesn't mean that every movie event now needs to have this big mythological connective tissue to stories that go back 100 years. But we live in a dumb world where that worked for comic book movies and just like thus for the movie industry. And so Hollywood is terrible at being like, oh, look, that worked that way. So now we're going to make 45 different versions of it just like that. Yes. And in one sense, it was a good decision because it did work. Like, I don't think this movie is going to make as much money as the original Wicked. And we should talk. I would like to talk about the press tour, Oscar chances, all of that sort of stuff.

1:03:42But like, to your point, this is like a success for Universal. And this will make money. Is it successful artistically? I don't think anybody on this podcast thinks so. No. No, I don't think so. I think also the other thing that's just really lost is that there's no sense of camp in this movie, whereas the first one had it. The first one with more of the choreography, honestly more of Bo and Yang.

1:04:06Sean Fennessey:I thought the fight scene was the one time when it was very camp. And there were a lot of laughs in my theater during that sequence. And that was fun, I thought, and felt appropriate. I think the superherofication of the movie really eliminated that and made it too dark and like didn't allow you to like really have the same kind of fun. And like there's not going to be a viral dance trend that comes out of this movie. And I feel like that was such a win for the first one. What was the viral dance trend in the first? With the books, when they're singing, I think it's popular. It's Ariana Grande and Bo and Yang.

1:04:41So it wasn't when they were doing the mind stuff? No, no, no. Okay.

1:04:45Sean Fennessey:Popular, that's a banger. That's a banger. Sure. That might be my favorite song. Yeah. So anyway, I just feel like that it's not fun like they like really lost the sort of like silly light fun that is the main tone of Wicked even though the like ideas around acceptance and friendship is sort of I think why people get sentimental over it it's an interesting thing because you know Ariana Grande obviously has been super praised for her performance in both movies she has a really really good comic touch as an actress like you can see this if you watch her on SNL she's really adept and it's like it's kind of Disney kid stuff you know You kind of learn that there is a performance style that is necessary and material like this, I think, to make this stuff work.

1:05:29Sean Fennessey:I don't think Cynthia Erivo has it as much, but it's okay because of kind of who Elphaba is as a character, that the storminess of that character doesn't necessitate it as much. But for all the time we spend with Glenda in the movie, she doesn't get to be that fun or funny in the movie because she's kind of in this mode of crisis. She's trying to figure out, like, what is the right way to exist in this world? And so it totally diminishes all the things that you're describing, Juliette. I also still don't so she's in charge of Glinda like what are what are her roles or responsibilities as Glinda the Good I think she's the figurehead of all of Oz okay now that the wizard is gone well what about before because when the wizard's still around when the film starts but she is Glinda the Good yeah she's kind of the Hillary Clinton of this world yeah she's secretary of state and now she's president I did write in the notes that I did see Madame Morrible as the Marjorie Taylor Greene of this place okay I just want to say, listen, yo, Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Yeoh are wonderful performers and have been great in movies that we have all loved.

1:06:29Sean Fennessey:They are terribly miscast in these movies. Like, they can't sing all lick. It is really, really, really tough sledding. Especially with Michelle Yeoh, who, like, looks amazing. And I was like, I have a lot of questions about this regimen and also this regime. but I it's it's just not a fit it is not a fit it's crazy I think he's okay like I think I think because he doesn't sing with anyone else it's sort of like this is the silly wizard and I just find him so fun to watch it's like whatever Michelle Yeoh like impacts really good songs because she's like singing with Ariana Grande and it's just like no this is not this is not working it was very disappointing and thank goodness it's a great song yeah that's I mean that's just a trick of the casting and obviously Michelle Yeoh had amazing success in Crazy Rich Asians with John Chu.

1:07:21Sean Fennessey:You can see why they would cast her in this part, but it's just like, she's literally singing a song with Ariana Grande who is like in the S tier of great movie musical performers alive right now. Totally. Yeah. She sounds amazing in this movie too. She finds a different register. It's incredible. Yeah. I actually like Jeff Goldblum though. In defense of Jeff Goldblum over here. I think he has obviously the oddity of The Wizard. Yeah, the kookiness. Yes. But his one singing moment, I was like, gosh, this is just this. It just felt like amateur hour. Like I was like, this is one hundred and eighty million dollar movie.

1:07:54Sean Fennessey:You let these people sing in the movie. Just dub them. I was just also like, why are we spending time with him? Because I know what's going to happen to him. Like there's no tension here whatsoever. So it just felt like filler. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support you and your passions. Think of all of the times on this show when you've had to sit here and listen to me talk about my love for physical media and all of my recent Blu-ray splurges. Yes. Like those friends and like me, State Farm is there to help you along the way. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have support in finding what fits for you.

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1:08:41Sean Fennessey:okay you mentioned you think this movie is going to make less than the previous film i wanted to ask you both about this so wicked made 758 million dollars and it made 474 million dollars in this country which is a staggering amount of money for a stage movie musical in 2024 for. So you think under 800 million? I do. It does not seem like the juice is there even within the Wicked fan community in the same way that it was. I went to a fan screening, an early fan screening last night, pretty much silent in my theater throughout. It was pretty silent in mine too. You know, like no laughs, no cheering, no nothing.

1:09:23And like people were in pink and green. Like I was there among the faithful. It's a mess if you like the movie. It's like kind of heartbreaking. You're like, you fucked this up. You just like dropped the ball.

1:09:34Sean Fennessey:Do you think that will be the general sentiment among super fans? I do. I've talked to two other people not on this podcast who've seen the movie and they both were like, yeah, this ain't it. One of them was like, I can't sleep. I'm so mad at how bad this is. That's so interesting. So the pre-sales for the movie have been incredible. Because people love the first film so much, you know, you and I were very much on the outside on that one where most people really liked that first movie. And so I think what you could see here is like an insane first weekend performance, like$130,$150 million. And then possibly a steep decline, but I don't know.

1:10:06Sean Fennessey:You never know. Like it's been a very quiet last six weeks at the box office. And I think people have been waiting for this, for Zootopia 2, for some of the awards and movies to open more widely over the next two weeks and then all leading up to Avatar. So like in theory... Yeah, you gestured at me, but you got to gesture at Julia Lovett. I was so pleased to hear you repping for Fire and Ash. I know. No pun intended once again. See, let's just... Can I tell you what I did last night? I started watching a four and a half hour documentary about the movie Aliens called Aliens Expanded. All right.

1:10:37Sean Fennessey:That sounds good. And it features at great length James Cameron and Sigourney Weaver talking about the movie. And I was just like, Jim Cameron is the fucking man. He speaks so directly and overconfidently about everything. It's genuinely, genuinely inspiring. Sigourney Weaver forever. Yeah, she's great. Sean, how much time have you spent watching him do the press tour around the submersible that John? You know, that's a little outside my personal interest, but I know it's in your zone. It's very much in mine. And if you'd like to discuss it, I'm available later. Sounds good. No, but let's talk about this press tour a little bit.

1:11:09Because as Juliet and I talked a little bit about on Jim Session, it has been in a lower key. mostly because of like the series of like unfortunate and scary incidents that have affected Ariana Grande and as a result Cynthia Erivo as well because they are very bonded but we haven't had the you know the the viral moments and holding space and just like the the good fun juju uh that was around for the first one and there just like hasn't been as much. So I do wonder whether, you know, I think there is enough awareness from the last one and it's close enough together. Like, you're right. People who went to see the first one will go see the second one.

1:11:52I think so. But it doesn't have the same, like, like national curiosity aspect of like, well, what's going on there? Or this has taken it over in the way that the first did. Also, don't you think part of the box office the first time was people saw it many times?

1:12:08Sean Fennessey:That obviously is always a factor when a movie is getting up over$300 million domestically. You've got to have repeat viewings. Especially like a musical, like sing-alongs and stuff. Like, I just don't see that happening at all. Right. I mean, this, I really would not want to be in a sing-along theater for this because it's either people trying to hit those notes with Ariana Grande or nothing. Yeah, it's just, and I know they're doing some like back-to-back screening so you can basically experience the whole thing together. But like, that's a huge time commitment in a different way. So, I don't know.

1:12:35Sean Fennessey:I'm looking at, so historically what you get is, the sequel usually makes more, sometimes significantly more than the original film. And let's just use the Lord of the Rings movies as a comp because I think that that's a fair kind of world. Why not go to Avatar 1 and Avatar 2? Well, there was a huge gap between movies there. So I'm thinking more like... That was a joke, Sean. I just love Avatar. The Way of Water did very... Did The Way of Water make more money than... It probably did just because of inflation. Yeah. But so the first Lord of the Rings movie made$900 million worldwide. The second made$920 million.

1:13:05Sean Fennessey:And the third made$1.1 billion. Okay. So I think it's... It'll be interesting. If it makes less, that's a big indictment on the movie. That's pretty uncommon for something like that to happen, but we'll see. I think with the marketing, the vibes are just so bad. I was thinking about it. Amanda and I touched on this on Jam Session. The New York premiere, Cynthia Erivo was sick, allegedly, and so then Ariana Grande also declined to do interviews. The more that I thought about that after we talked on it, I was just like, that's super weird. She's like out of solidarity. That's not the same as like the holding space moment, and I'm just like, there's got to be something going on behind the scenes there that's just like, this has really gone awry.

1:13:39I also would not be surprised if Ariana Grande was like, keep me away from everyone after what happened in Singapore. Plus, I mean, you know, the gossip, the rumors that she and Bach eight minutes later have broken up, which I think that has to be hard. Like, I mean, very high profile relationship. Has he been on the trail? It's been kind of funny. Yes, he has. And apparently they're always like far apart. I watched The Wicked One Wonderful Night special and like it's like a very big like everyone's in an armchair it's like the whole 10 person cast and they're like far away from each other so i think there's been no interaction that said there was no public interaction between them for the first movie either but i think there's a lot more like running between the lines right now okay it's hard to

1:14:23Sean Fennessey:say whether something like that affects it or not there's been this big discussion about whether or not being available in in for all these press opportunities is a good thing or a bad thing for movies and you know it's funny that you know i know matt belany wrote about this recently it's been discussed quite a bit. I think Chris and Andy talked about it on their show too. I just think it's like about the material. Like if people are interested in the movie, like no, people are not interested in Die My Love because it's a very difficult arthouse film. Well, yeah. I mean, a number of things went wrong with that including that they use Katniss Everdeen and Robert Pattinson and then people walk into a very small movie that opened in 2 ,000 theaters which is also like insane.

1:14:58Sean Fennessey:Yeah, but this is a different story where like I don't know if people could have gotten enough of Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo around the first Wicked film. They loved seeing them together all the time. And I do think that it buoyed it. Totally. But they were promoting something in Wicked that has its own fan base and its own. That's right. So it's like awareness of a lot of things. And it was like intertwined in the film. Yeah, and I think that that's where it works. I think that they help the IP and the IP helps them. Yes. But to do it without any IP at this point. That's a lesson to all the movie marketeers.

1:15:29Sean Fennessey:It's very tough. Don't just like play flip cup with your two stars unless there's flip cup in the movie. You know what I mean? You need to make it about what the experience of the thing it's going to be about. Let's briefly talk about the Academy Awards. I heard you say this actually on Jam Session and we've been slotting Wicked for Good pretty comfortably into Best Picture for two months now because the first film got 10 Academy Award nominations. It won two Oscars for Costume Design and Best Production Design. And it's obviously, it was hugely appreciated by the community of movie makers. I think all of the branches found something to like about the movie.

1:16:03Sean Fennessey:And then now we're like, ah, maybe it'll disappoint a little bit at the box office. It's clearly like lower on the critical reception. The super fans may not feel strongly about it. Like, is there a world where this is not nominated for Best Picture? I have started wondering about it. Doesn't deserve it. That's for sure. Yeah, but that deserve don't count when it comes to Best Picture. I'm not sure yet. I'm not ready to write it off. But I do also, that conversation on Jam Session came up in light of the marketing run and the bad vibes, which would affect an awards campaign. And I do think that they ran a great, you know, they went straight from the press campaign for the movie into the press campaign for the Oscars and Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande, especially, were just out and about working it.

1:16:52And I think, understandably, they might not want to do that again.

1:16:55Sean Fennessey:Yeah, they will be nominated again, though, both of them. I'm pretty sure both of them will be. Maybe Cynthia Erivo is a little in danger, but I don't think so. I think they both will. and because of that they're going to have to they're going to have to hoof it you know like that's a lot of work to spend three months trying to tell people that you deserve to get a gold statue and Ariana Grande has signaled in every way possible that explicitly saying it that she's basically done with music and just wants to be an actress so I feel like this is very much what she wants right now so I wouldn't be surprised if like you know she does get nominated to see her working for it I do feel like it's slightly different with Cynthia Erivo because she's like has a different kind of esteem I'm sure she wants an Oscar not to like denigrate that, but as a Tony winner, it's just like a little bit different, I think.

1:17:37Yeah, I don't know. How you approach it.

1:17:38Sean Fennessey:I mean, I don't, it's impossible to know either of their motivations in terms of the award season. I do think that Ariana Grande has a significant chance to win. Yeah, yeah. She is great. She is so good in this role. It's so fun to watch. And she's going to get a lot of the high marks and because she's at the center of so much of the story. So like, I think it's probably reasonable to again expect costume design and production design to be nominated. I think makeup and hairstyling will get nominations. maybe score but I don't think so because score is super competitive this year sound and visual effects maybe I definitely don't think best editing is in play this year it got best editing last year which is just fucking heinous supporting actress here's who we're talking about okay I don't know if you probably haven't seen all these movies Julia but just hang with us on this almost impossible that I've seen any of them so both so Tiana Taylor for one battle after another Amy Madigan for weapons Ariana Grande for wicked Inga Ibstotter-Lilius from Sentimental Value Elle Fanning from Sentimental Value Glenn Close from Wake Up Dead Man Odessa Azean from Marty Supreme we've not talked about her speaking of I Love L.A.

1:18:42Sean Fennessey:Wonmi Musako from Sinners Gwyneth Paltrow from Marty Supreme I don't see that happening or Gina Hall but this is kind of the bottom of the list it's very possible that there's a big one battle swoon and that Tiana Taylor is a part of that swoon and it becomes a night where that movie wins seven awards it's also possible it goes the exact other way. And we haven't seen a lot of years where a film wins five, six, seven Oscars. Now they tend to spread the wealth. This would be the way to recognize Wicked would be to award Ariana Grande. I could see that happening. I can too. I would be tough for that to win over Tiana Taylor in one battle after another.

1:19:19For me personally also and just, you know, politically. Yeah. And in everything that implies.

1:19:25Sean Fennessey:Literally the white Avatar princess of Oz reigning over it all. You're just like, Just really, really not good. But she is very good in it. And I think if... I hope she gets a couple weeks off. It seems unlikely. But let her rest for a little bit and then get back in the game for Golden Globes and start the campaign. And it could happen. Have you seen Marty Supreme yet, Juliette? No, I'm looking forward to it, though. I heard you say Uncut Gems was not your flavor, but there is a distinct New York energy in Marty Supreme. Yeah. There was an Uncut Gems too. Yeah. I'm surprised to hear myself say I'm looking forward to it.

1:20:03Sometimes, some days I am, some days I'm not. Today I'm like, yeah, that sounds kind of good. The Gwyneth Paltrow of it is appealing to me.

1:20:09Sean Fennessey:Yeah. She's good, but I... It's Odessa Asien's time in that movie. Yeah. Movie rocks. It fucking rocks. If you didn't like the 18-minute marketing stunt though, I don't know whether this is going to be the experience that you're looking for. I love Marty Supreme. Yeah. It's really great. Yeah. Okay. I want a jacket. but like they gave one to Tom Brady instead. A Marty Supreme jacket? Tom Brady was wearing a Marty Supreme jacket? Yeah, he's part of like the greatest campaign. I know it's tough. Well, that's just not at all what I want to hear. Listen. I'm going to call Josh and tell him take that jacket off that New England Patriot.

1:20:42We should probably have a thing where just like for five minutes, Juliette and I have YouTube Corner where she just tells me what she's watching on YouTube and I guess I should just tell you what's happening on Instagram like once a week for five minutes. That happened on Instagram.

1:20:54Sean Fennessey:That would be a good social media strategy. Yeah. Yeah, just keeping Sean up to date with the comings and goings of social media. And then you clip it, and then you do hashtag Tom Brady, hashtag Marty Supreme. Just see what you get. Yeah, that sounds really good. That sounds excellent. I did want to share this one tidbit that I thought was really interesting that Scott Feinberg from the THR had, which is that Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande could become the seventh and eighth performers to land multiple acting nominations for playing the same part in different years. Now, you already read this, right?

1:21:25Sean Fennessey:This would have been a good quiz for you. I should have set it up as a quiz. Well, but I don't remember. So I... You want to try to guess? The two I remember because I just read them were Sylvester Stallone for Rocky and Creed. And Creed. And then Cate Blanchett for Elizabeth and Elizabeth the Golden Age. That's right. Okay. So, but I don't remember any of the others. Juliet, jump in as well. How many others are there? That is... That's two. There's four more. Okay. Four more. There's one very famous Oscar win in the second appearance of this actor? Paul Newman, Hud, and, uh, no, not Hud, Hustler and Color of Money.

1:22:03Sean Fennessey:That's right. Uh, do, do, do. Okay. So let's see. There's a tremendously iconic version of this. Um, Fran, is it a franchise type thing or is it? Sort of. I mean, is it a Godfather situation? It is. Yes. Um, so it would be Pacino, right? Pacino. Yeah. Godfather and Godfather Part II. Okay. And then... We've got one more that you may not get, but you admire. Oh, I did read this. Okay. Because it's Peter O'Toole and it's Lion and Winter. And then I honestly did it like a Samuel Beckett something? Beckett. No, it's just Beckett. Yeah. And then the last one for the real heads is Bing Crosby for Going My Way and the Bells of St.

1:22:44Sean Fennessey:Mary's, which just like Wicked and Wicked for Good came out in consecutive years. He won for Going My Way and then appeared again in Bells of St. Mary. Have you seen the Bells of St. Mary? No, but should I check it out tonight? It's not a bad film. It's about a priest. It's about an Irish priest. All right. It's also a song on the Phil Spector Christmas album. Is it? Bells of St. Mary. Yeah. Oh, okay. Cool. Did you see all the people who went to go see the Pope? What'd you think about that? All the cinema people? I thought it was cool. Honestly. I thought it was cool. I think this Pope seems pretty great.

1:23:15Sean Fennessey:He opened his arms to the artistic community and cinema. and frankly we love to see it. And Chicago sports. Yeah, it's beautiful. That's right. He seems like a great guy. Good choice, everybody. Where can we find you on the internet and on podcasts? On Mondays and Thursdays you can find me on Bachelor Party. On Tuesdays you can find me on Jam Session and on Fridays you can find me on Food News. Wow. A podcasting freak. You're all over the place. Honestly, too many. I know you're all thinking. Okay, Julia. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your wicked insights. Thanks for having me, guys. It's an honor.

1:23:48Have a great rest of your podcast. Thanks, Juliette. See you Tuesday.

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1:25:53Sean Fennessey:Okay, just me and you now. Hello. Tell the truth. You actually loved Wicked Part 2. You didn't want to reveal it in front of Juliet because you knew she was frustrated. It's It's your favorite movie of the year. Yes. Okay. I've got the family costume for next year, all set to go. You're playing the lion. I was going to say, I'm the scarecrow. Yeah. No, I'm the nice bear with all the stuff on her back. You kind of have that energy. Okay, I thank you. The sweet bear. That's what I think of when I think of you. My family nickname is actually bear. That's what Zach calls me. Oh, that's nice. That's not your energy at all.

1:26:23Sean Fennessey:More of a cheetah, I would say. Okay. Train dreams. Let's talk about this movie. I've been telling you about train dreams. For like, honestly, nine months. Since January. Yeah. Now, I saw the movie on my couch during virtual Sundance. And I did the thing that I always do, which is like, I've had a full day. I've been podcasting. I get home, pick up my daughter from school, play with her for three hours, go to bed, eat dinner, and then fire up. Go to bed, eat dinner? Go downstairs, put her to bed. I don't go to bed. You got it. Okay. And then fire up three Sundance movies in a row from, you know, 8 p.m.

1:26:55Sean Fennessey:through 1 a.m. Terrible system. And I think it is really a bad system. but I think I started watching this movie at like 10.30 p.m. and usually when that happens I get really tired and I'm like I'll finish this tomorrow or something and I stayed up all the way to 1.30 in the morning for this one and was really moved really knocked out it's directed by Clint Bentley I mentioned it's co-written by Bentley and Greg Quedar Greg was on the show last year because these two guys have this partnership where they make movies and they kind of trade year to year who's the director and who's the co-writer producer last year their movie was Sing Sing which we both really liked a lot so if you liked Sing Sing or if you saw Jockey, which is Clint's first film, you know that it's very sincere guys.

1:27:32Sean Fennessey:Very kind of like direct emotional filmmakers who are really interested in the human condition. This new movie is based on this Dennis Johnson novella, which I had not read prior to seeing the movie and then kind of read through a little bit after I saw the film the first time. It's about a logger named Robert Greiner who works to build the railroads across the United States. And so he's constantly moving away from his home and he eventually starts a family and he moves away from his family. And we watch really this entire guy's life unfold over roughly two hours. And the film is shot beautifully.

1:28:07Sean Fennessey:It's very much a kind of a naturalistic look at the world in the early 1900s. What did you think of Train Dreams? And so you have been talking about this for 10 months and you just keep saying, it's like a beautiful movie about logging and the Pacific Northwest and like all this stuff. And you are not the film's best marketer, you know, is what I would say. Or you were not marketing well to me because I rolled my eyes every time you talked about this. And then I saw this movie and it is beautiful. It is beautiful. And wonderful. And I guess it like is about a logger. And there, I mean, sure, their logging happens.

1:28:43Sean Fennessey:There's a lot of logging in the film. There is a lot of - And I'm not talking about Letterboxd. There is a lot of logging, but it is also, it's a movie about a family. And I thought, and a man dealing with his family. And it was absolutely upsetting and beautiful. And one of those things where you feel the emotions that you're supposed to feel very early on in the film and it does keep grabbing you. It really connects with the audience. Yeah, it's an interesting thing because the novella, just like the movie, is very episodic. And so it's kind of like beat to beat, job to job for Robert or he meets his eventual wife and played by Felicity Jones.

1:29:23Sean Fennessey:Which is another thing. You didn't even tell me until I sat down and I'm a pretty black licorice with Felicity Jones. And I was like, oh no, she was wonderful in this. I was afraid you were going to hate it. She was wonderful in this. I think she's, I mean, I do like her and have always liked her so I was happy to see her but I was a little worried that you were going to be like, I can't with this because I think this is such a nice movie and I didn't want you to hate it, honestly. Sometimes I don't care if you hate a movie but this was one where I was like, I really hope she doesn't get on the pod and be like, fuck this.

1:29:48Sean Fennessey:No. But I think the book is very strange. And the movie takes some liberties with the book that I honestly don't love. It definitely, the Robert Greeneur character is not in the book this like beautiful, innocent, almost like angel type figure moving through this period in existence. He's kind of more complicit in some of the more unfortunate stuff that happens in the book. And so I think it does, it puts a different valence on the story. Okay. Where this is more like a kind of a very innocent man trying to move through a very uninnocent world. Whereas in the book, it's more like the world is cruel and it moves quickly and it's hard to live simply.

1:30:29Sean Fennessey:And it's not a bad thing, but it is a very different perspective on it, especially in the first part of the book, some of which, some specific things that they changed. Nevertheless, like Joel Edgerton is kind of my Felicity Jones. I never liked Joel Edgerton. I've said on multiple pods, like if you just take him out of other movies he's in and replace him with, you know, count the list of names. You know, Jake Gyllenhaal, Andrew Garfield, like a bunch of other actors who I just like more. That's definitely how you save Boz Lerman's The Great Gatsby. That wouldn't save it, but, you know, it would improve it in my opinion.

1:31:02Sean Fennessey:But I usually just can't really connect to him as an actor. I thought he was very, very good in this. And it's a challenging part because he doesn't say a lot, this character. You really have to kind of like live through his pained experience. He has a lot of trauma in the movie. I thought he was very, very good. and it's not as showy as a lot of the best actor candidates that we've been talking about in the last couple weeks, but he gives a great performance in this. I mean, it is, I guess, a movie about trauma, but it doesn't, I don't think it ever says the word trauma, which is great. I think in general, you can control F any script in the world and if it actually has the word trauma stated, like bad movie, change it, even use your little thesaurus, but like once we're stating it as text, that's the sign of you know over simplistic structure and this is just about this is about loss and so i you know i didn't read the novella um and so i i don't have that point of comparison but i didn't mind like the the innocence or the almost obliviousness of like an aw shucksiness the character because I thought it created a portal just into the, what happens when like, when you lose something.

1:32:14And that is something that happens to all of us, but no matter how much evidence you have in life around you, like you don't expect it and you don't know how to navigate it. Yeah. And so like almost just like a lost person going through, I mean, you know, literally a lost person. To me, it was a novel recreation of it and very affecting. Like I was really fucking upset. It's very upsetting.

1:32:37Sean Fennessey:There's stretches of the movie that are just deeply sad. Yeah. And then there's a couple of things that are extraordinary about it too. One, it's this amazing collection of character actors and actresses. You've got William H. Macy, probably the best performance he's given in years. Oh, it's so good. I didn't watch Shameless. I know he spent like 10 years making Shameless, but when we were teenagers, William H. Macy was the best character actor in America. Like he really was in that stretch in the 90s and 2000s, as good as we got. and he's really quite good in this film as a fellow logger. Nathaniel Arcand in this movie, John Deal, a character actor I've always loved, Paul Schneider, Clifton Collins, who was the star of Clint Bentley's last movie, Jockey, like just really kind of A-plus figures.

1:33:18Sean Fennessey:My girl Carrie Condon swoops in for a minute. Trying to do an American accent. She's doing her best. You know, it's not one of her skills. No. It's just not something she's great at. I got her back though. She's trying. When we first talked about the movie in January, I kept saying there's a shot in the movie that I never saw before. Yeah. Where the camera is strapped to a log. It was cool. And at the very beginning of the movie, you see the camera following the log. It's kind of similar to how the camera is strapped to car doors all throughout one battle. Right, yeah. And it's like every time somebody gets in a car, you can feel the door swinging closed.

1:33:51Sean Fennessey:Those kind of perspective shots of inanimate objects, there's not a lot of terrain of I've not seen that before. Yeah. I really love and I've not seen that before. But you were into that one. There's a couple of cool ones. And then, without ruining the movie, has a final 10 minutes where it really takes advantage of its digital photography and puts the character in a couple of positions that seem completely outside of the experience he's been having in this very natural, simple log cabin world that he's been living in that just like swept me up. You know, like you might feel the movie like drag a little bit kind of into the beginning of the third act.

1:34:22Sean Fennessey:And then by the end, I was like, just deeply moved, you know, just like hit me like a ton of bricks. So I think, just think this is a really good film. It's a real paradox with Netflix because it's a movie that, on a big screen, would just take you down the river. You know, like it really would be super powerful. But you watched it at home. I did. On your Sundance couch. And it worked. And it worked. Yeah. And it can work and it should work and people should watch it on Netflix. But I can't imagine it was made specifically to be seen as a streaming movie. It's great that more people will see it that way, but it doesn't feel like the ideal execution.

1:34:59I don't think I know of a good movie that was made specifically for streaming. Maybe with the exception of Triple Frontier.

1:35:07Sean Fennessey:That's the thing. There is a kind of movie that works well on that experience. That's literally the only one. Even all the streaming rom-coms, I'm like, what if you had made this, though, to be good instead of on streaming? And then I just watched it on streaming. That's a really good point. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, especially after seeing Regretting You. I've got a lot of feelings. I just couldn't be more excited. Okay. Oscar chances for Train Dreams before we get to my conversation with Clint. It seems in the mix. You and I were talking on the way out of a recording the other day about the international features category this year and also our assumptions about which international or non-English language features would make it into Best Picture.

1:35:45We have been, based on previous years and based on me always yelling at you, it's an international academy counting big, reserving two, maybe even three slots. I don't know if that's going to happen in the same way. And we're going to talk about... So that's the next episode, right? It is. Psychotically.

1:36:02Sean Fennessey:We'll go back to Best Picture Power Rankings and Sentimental Value in the next episode. And Regretting You. So it's sentimental value. They're perfectly matched in so many ways. I honestly can't believe how close they are. It is true. Even though they could not have less in common. Yeah. We don't have to have that power ranking conversation yet, but I agree that there is a spot for a movie like Trainwaters because it is a movie that... I've not met a person who's like, I didn't like that. Yeah. And that's really what you need. You need this movie to show up in like the number three or four spot on a lot of ballots to get bumped up and up.

1:36:29Sean Fennessey:Because a couple of these movies are going to be divisive. You know, I think Frankenstein's divisive. I think Wicked for Good's going to be divisive. I think Avatar's going to be divisive. These movies that feel on the bubble when you get a movie like this or everybody's like, damn, that was pretty good. I think Jay Kelly's divisive. You know, like a bunch of these movies. Listen, as you said, we've got three that we feel pretty confident about. Though for the life of me, I can't remember what the third one is right now. So two. oh no I remember the third okay because I forgot about Hamnet but Hamnet yes when is that coming out it opens November 26th in limited wide on December 12th so we're going to wait on this show to do it until the film is made widely available which I think is the right thing to do okay that'll be an interesting conversation as well any other thoughts on Train Dreams before we go I thought it was lovely it's a nice movie let's go to my conversation now with a very nice guy Clint Bentley

1:37:25Sean Fennessey:Very happy to have Clint Bentley here. You're here with Train Dreams. We didn't speak for Jockey, but I liked Jockey quite a bit. Oh, thank you. I talked to Greg Quidar, your writing partner, producing partner for Sing Sing. Yes. Another film that you were significantly a part of. But you're here now to talk about Train Dreams. I'm excited to be here. I'm a big fan. Thanks, man. I'll try not to geek out. Please do. I encourage you to geek out as much as possible. I do want to start with Dennis Johnson, who is an author that I like quite a bit, and I assume you do as well since you adapted this novella.

1:37:54Sean Fennessey:what's the first thing you ever read by him? Actually this. Yeah? Back when it came out. I think it came out like 2014 or something like that. And it was just like one of the books to read that year, you know, and so I read it. I didn't know who Dennis Johnson was. I was on the road, I think at the time. And it was a nice little slim, it's like 117 pages and I read it and blew my mind. And I just loved it so much. And it sent me down a path of reading everything I could by Dennis Johnson. I became a huge super fan. This is kind of a great place to start because it's very conquerable. You know, like trying to start with Tree of Smoke is much more challenging.

1:38:32In some ways, but then in other ways, like Tree of Smoke is so narratively, if you were thinking about like pulling one and thinking like, all right, which book of his am I going to adapt? Like that one at least is more narratively straightforward. It's a much bigger canvas. At the same time though, this one's 85 years in a guy's life. That's true. But the stream of consciousness nature of train dreams and the way it shifts all over the place, I actually never would have probably had the courage to think, okay, I'll adapt that one. If somebody had said, take any book of his and adapt it, you know, I don't know that I would have had the courage to say this one.

1:39:09So what happened? Well, some producers had the rights to the book. and Marissa McMahon, Ashley Schlafer, and Will Janowitz, who are producers on the film, they saw Jockey at Sundance and they'd been trying to make it for a while and trying to find a filmmaker for it. And lucky for me, they hadn't been able to crack it. And so they reached out and asked if I'd be interested in adapting it.

1:39:34Sean Fennessey:And you said, I read this book and it's not adaptable. It's impossible. So like, how do you conceive of it? Because I definitely have some questions about kind of like how faithful you tried to stay and then where you made excursions away from the source material. I went back at first, my memory of it was, it was funny because like, even in the years between like getting that call and like having read it initially is one of those books that like, just things would bubble up from time to time from it. Like scenes would come up in my mind randomly. And it just was one of those things that like really stuck with me.

1:40:06One of those pieces of work. And so I went back and at first I thought like, maybe this one is... It's like a sound, sound of the fury or, or a hundred years of solitude or something like that. That's, but I went back and reread it with an eye towards like thinking about it as a film. And one, I just got so excited about the, the potential of it, of, of the landscape and the things that it could, that, that I could use the film to talk about. And some of the themes, the story of Robert Grenier, like this guy who, who kind of has a life. that no one would build a statue for or anything, yet it's very beautiful and rich.

1:40:50And pretty quickly, I felt like there was a shape for it, a narrative shape for it, that could make it a bit more digestible as a film, but not lose some of that wooliness that's so special about the novel or about the novella. And that came pretty quickly, and that stayed intact into the film. but then it was a very like difficult process with Greg of like actually doing that and actually you know executing it as a script was a difficult and long process but yeah.

1:41:23Sean Fennessey:I want to hear about that but so when you're saying that you're figuring out like the appropriate structure are you saying like okay I want to have these five incidents happen in Robert's life and we'll build the movie as like a pathway through those incidents like how are you thinking about it specifically? I think generally thinking about it, I'd heard an interview a while back with, um, Paul Schrader and he was talking about, it unlocked something about screenwriting for me, where he was talking about that screenwriting comes from the oral tradition, not from the written tradition, you know, the form of screenwriting.

1:41:57And he talks a lot about like, you should say your, you should just say the story of your movie to a friend or to somebody like that when you're trying to work it out. And then you'll realize very quickly, like, what's interesting, what's not, what you have figured out and what you don't, what questions arise, what you forgot to talk about, and therefore it's not that interesting. And so just coming up with the shape of the general structure of the film as to like, okay, it's going to start with the first half and not giving anything away. No spoilers for this, but like the first half of the movie is going to be this section of him trying to figure out how do you make it work with a family at home while also having to travel far away for work and and and like the push and pull of that and the specialness of being at home while also all the fun and the camaraderie of like being on a logging crew with a bunch of random weirdos um and then some big event which i won't gave away happens in the middle and then and then the lat the back half of the film is then like the the narrative breaks and the back half of the film then becomes how do you pick up the pieces of your life and move on after unspeakable grief and tragedy and where do you find hope so for lack

1:43:18Sean Fennessey:of a better did you figure that out by talking through that with greg in the oral tradition like is that how you guys land on the structure is that something that you're doing to yourself again that one like came uh that they don't all come like this uh with our films um but it came pretty quickly like that after going back and reading it and then sitting with it reading the book and then sitting with it for a minute that came pretty quickly and then i could say that when greg and i always use each other as like the first contact of like is this a movie or not you know whether it's when he found the article for sing sing um and then sent it over and was like okay and here's what I'm thinking the movie could be or with this one.

1:43:58And so I was able to say that pretty quickly, that general structure. Again, then the devil's in the details of like, how do you actually do that?

1:44:05Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Jockey is seemingly a very personal movie. Your father was a jockey. I feel like you poured a lot of experience in that world into this. This is a slightly different exploration. It's, you know, 100 years ago and it's a world, I don't know how familiar you are with the world of logging in the Pacific Northwest, but like how do you make yourself an expert so that you can portray it? It's a good question. I mean, there's a lot of research that went into it. Excuse me. The things I loved about the novella were actually the things that were very personal. I think in some ways of like the things that he's struggling, that Grenier is struggling with of like doing this thing that you love and this work that takes you far away from home while also wanting to be with your family.

1:44:49Like I experienced that as a filmmaker a lot and struggle with that. Um, I was raised on a ranch, um, and, uh, and my uncle was a logger and I used to ride in the log trucks with him, um, on the weekends. And there's a lot of like this question of like, how, what is our responsibility to in our relationship with nature? Um, as, as people who live not over top of it, but really alongside of it. um and then the nature of grief like like dealing like like a lot of us like have dealt with some real like debilitating loss in my life um and that was a big thing i think we started writing it on the tail end of covid and when like just life had completely changed for all of us um and and there was a lot of that that went into it of just like trying to kind of figure out like where do we go from here and and and what does it look like um yeah there was just so much about the that about the book and reading the novella that felt not only that i could personally relate to in my own personal life but that i felt like even though it was telling this story of this guy who lived in the early part of the 20th century in the pacific northwest and was a logger so much felt so pertinent to today um in terms of you know this guy feeling like a relic of another time even while he's still alive technology's passing him by he doesn't know you know how to kind of keep up with life life feels like it's moving faster and faster like all these things it just felt like this really feels like maybe a really stunning way to talk about a lot of things we're going through today um through this lens of of of this character can you talk about actually

1:46:35Sean Fennessey:portraying this person's vocation and how you recreate this work the movie opens with this you know really not doesn't open but one of the very first things you see is the camera fixed to a to a tree that's being cut down and the first time i saw the movie i was like i've not seen that that shot before that image before in this exact way which is like i've seen a lot of movies we've all seen a lot of images in our lives and and that you know that just grabbed me and took my breath the way thank you um but it felt like there was a lot of intentionality in terms of showing how this work is done i assume it's got to be challenging to recreate that environment make it look authentic but then not damage the the environment that you're totally you're in not doing the same thing that we're that we're criticizing here yes exactly it was a similar like and also like doing it safely and like having a bunch of people swinging axes and stuff like that in a way that like...

1:47:32Sean Fennessey:The only other logging movie I could think of was Sometimes a Great Notion, which has like one of the most devastating death scenes. The drowning. The drowning. Yeah. It's brutal. It's insane. But you know, it's like that movie is, you know, it's a mixed bag, but it is an amazing representation of this very dangerous world. It is. And it's also like made in the 70s. And so they could just like throw logs down a hill and shit like that. Yes. And you can't do that. And you shouldn't do it. Cannot, but should not. So what did you do? took a lot of lessons from Jockey, you know, honestly, where we were going into a space also with, in horse racing, where one, we didn't have the budget to like set up horse races in a way.

1:48:13And so you just, we just found ways to, we just filmed that movie on a working racetrack and just had our scenes happening with the racing in the background, right? And we're folding our actors into those moments. And so it took a similar approach here to the trees. There are only a few trees that are cut down in the film and all of those, we went into logging areas where they're already cutting down trees and just said, which ones are you cutting down next week on Tuesday when we want to film the scene? And they're like, that one, that one, that one. And we're like, okay, can we bolt a camera to a tree while you cut down that tree that you're already going to cut down?

1:48:49And so trying to be thoughtful in terms of that perspective Also, our production designer and her team, Alex Schaller, they were amazing. There are a few scenes where they're cutting into these big old trees and laying in a notch of one. And that is a wooden and fiberglass tree that they made. They made a big 12-foot tall stump that then we could have our actors sawing into. And then we extend the top with VFX. That is seamless. I would have never guessed that. There's a ton of VFX. I mean, our production design team is amazing in terms of what they did and giving us big stumps that we could just place in different areas, you know, that look very real.

1:49:33And then our VFX supervisor, Ilya Mokhtore-Zava, is amazing. And there's a lot of VFX. I'm proud to say, like there's a lot of VFX in the movie and you wouldn't know it by watching it.

1:49:45Sean Fennessey:Yeah, that's really impressive. Yeah, which is hard VFX to do. I did want to ask you about shooting on digital, which like you would think, I don't know what your feelings are about film versus digital. If you could have shot on film, but it had this surprising effect on me that watching it for a second time because digital kind of draws out a lot of detail. And this is a film about like a different time, like a lack of, like the changing modernity, right? That this character is walking through. And you would think that it would be like a contrast to some of the ideas and this, you know, portrayal of natural beauty that the film is after.

1:50:20Sean Fennessey:and yet like I find it to be really effective in this particular case I'm curious just to hear your thoughts about shooting in that way the challenges of it what are the upsides of it I think we wouldn't we explored shooting on film and that was something that I like Adolfo and I my cinematographer Adolfo Veloso we had talked about doing the reality is like we couldn't have done the film on film the way that we did it and and part of that was we shot the film in 29 days and so we're moving very quickly we're using available light wherever we can all the fire scenes that are lit by fires are lit by fires you know and are lit by candles and and um and lanterns and so in that environment like we couldn't if we had more time or more money we could have shot it on film and had lighting packages and things like that um or more time to do lighting setups but as it was like we needed to move quickly and um and we needed to shoot in a lot of really low light environments and um and digital just made the most sense um for that and yet like uh we i don't know you don't want it to look digital you know you don't want it to you want it to look have this like special look to it and adolfo is brilliant in how he shoots it to get that.

1:51:46And then also the colors that we work with, Sergio Pasquilano is amazing at like coming up with a look that feels softer than the hard edges of digital. But really like as quickly as we were moving and like, you know, following around Joel Edgerton and Felicity Jones with a bunch of chickens at sunset, like you can't, it's tough to do that with film cameras. You can, but you just need more time than we had.

1:52:10Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I'm sure it's helped by the fact that you're not just sitting in modern rooms with black walls. Like you are in an incredible location capturing the world as it is. Oh yeah, totally. And the detail, there is something very beautiful because Netflix was kind enough to do a 35 millimeter print of the film. And it's really beautiful and I'm really proud of it and I'm excited for people to see it on that. And yet, like just because of the nature of the medium, there is some detail, there's some really like special detail to the spaces that is lost in that exhibition format. We have long-running dialogues on this show about the use of narration in films.

1:52:50Sean Fennessey:Yeah, yeah. And it can be a crutch. It can be... There's a very bad way to do it. There's a very bad way to do it. And it can be a way to deliver information that was not originally part of the intention of the story.

1:53:04Sean Fennessey:The narration in this film, to me, makes it very unusual because it does make it very literate and almost like literature. And I don't feel the structure of a traditional three-act movie because of the narration. But I was curious to hear you talk about writing it and kind of when to include it. The decision to use Will Patton, which is so inspired and he's amazing. He's incredible. Keeps you like very emotionally tied to the work. But can you just talk about why you included it in the way that you did? Yeah, it was a few things that came from just the story itself. One was you've got this character in Robert Grenier, who Joel Edgerton plays, who is a man of few words.

1:53:44And I wanted to portray this character as he is in the book, but also like thinking about like my dad, my grandfathers and men like that who had very deep feelings and deep thoughts, but didn't always have the vocabulary to say it, you know? And so that was one aspect of just having this character who you want to portray to an audience that there's a very deep undercurrent running through there and he's trying to figure out the world around him and yet doesn't have the words to say, hey, I'm dealing with trauma and loss. I don't know. So he breaks the character as soon as he starts doing that.

1:54:19So that was one aspect. The other aspect was thinking about what was special about the novella and trying to bring that across. And part of the thing was just Dennis Johnson's voice and he's got these clever turns of phrase and this subtle kind of irony that he puts in at times. that just makes the story come alive, even though it's so spare in terms of the fiction. It's so deep. And that's part of it is because of his voice. And just trying to pull that across in there. And then like, you know, you don't want to do narration badly and be like, and he was sad that day. And I thought about like the narrators from like Jules and Jim and Itou Mamatambien who are just like characters in their own right.

1:55:03And wanted this character to feel like if you like we're in some bar in a logging town late at night and some guy sits down next to you and is like let me tell you about robert grenier after he's had a few beers um wanting it to feel like that you know and that he can take a side so you can take these like tangents and talk about a comet for some reason you're like wait what does that have to do with what we're talking about i

1:55:24Sean Fennessey:love that oh yeah let's get back on track that's great i mean he really does feel like he is someone you know but just met and has a lot of things to share which is a nice way to feel about about the narrative instead of it being, if it was in Joel's voice and it was first person, you'd be like, I was, you know, three years old when this happened and then it's all of a sudden we've, we've felt it before. And I think that like taking that approach to every, every part of it, the structure, the way you set up shots, the way that like, um, I don't know any scene between two characters go and just try not to do the thing that's, that's expected with it.

1:56:02Um, and, um, you know, I think that, that like applies to the whole process.

1:56:09Sean Fennessey:So I have a confession. Uh, I, I have always been a little bit immune to Joel Edgerton as a performer. How? Many people say that it's, I'm on, I'm on like the outside on that one. This is the, probably the first movie that I have felt emotionally connected to him. Oh, wow. So I'm curious. I'm not curious about why I feel that way, but I'm curious why you put him chose, chose him to be Robert in this film. I felt respectfully the opposite of that. And I found him to be like, with Loving especially, but with several of his roles, just found him so like fascinating as an actor. And again, felt like there was so much depth there that maybe like we hadn't seen all of it.

1:57:01um and and then just like this very rare he's a very rare actor who feels like he could be from any time period and i always love that when it like you could put joel in the 30s you could put joel in the 60s and the 70s you can put him today and he fits right in wherever like that's true whatever era of film you know he could be right there alongside jimmy cagney and you'd be like yeah if it's um and uh and there's something just very kind of timeless and beautiful about him and having somebody who can like you believe him as a logger chopping down trees but then you also believe him as like a sweet family man you know hanging out with the kid and and holding the baby trying to burp the baby like that's a very rare gift um and then again like not you know i could i could spend the rest of the thing talking about how great joel is but like also having somebody who can do a lot with a little you know it doesn't need to be busy as an actor and doesn't need to like say a lot, but can get so much across with his eyes.

1:58:04And, and, and, and with a look, that's a very rare gift. Okay.

1:58:09Sean Fennessey:Slash talent. You've convinced me. I wanted to ask you about the phrase Malikian. Cause you, you have this like great compliment and great burden of being compared to Terrence Malick because of this movie, because I think in part because of what the movie is looking to explore, how some of the visual representation you live in Texas home of Terrence Malick how do you feel about that how do you feel about that comparison

1:58:38I mean, he's one of the greatest filmmakers to have ever, you know, lived. And it's very, like, it's hard not to, I think, be a filmmaker trying to do something poetic, especially with nature. Whether you're making films or you're making Tide commercials, it's hard not to be influenced by what he's done. he changed the language of cinema he created a new form like one of those rare filmmakers that that that turned the medium in a new direction you know there's not many of them um and uh um so yeah i'm i'm a big fan um trying to uh do my own thing but but it i don't know if i'm mentioned in the same sentence as him.

1:59:30I'm very honored.

1:59:32Sean Fennessey:It's a good answer. I really like the choice of actors in small parts in this movie. I feel like you have an incredible eye for one scene heroes. Clifton, obviously, you worked with in the past, but seeing Paul Schneider and John Deal. I love John Deal. Obviously, William H. Macy is getting a lot of love for his work in this movie. There's many others. How do you cast? I talked with Greg, I think, a bit about this too, because Sing Sing is such an extraordinary act of casting. But how do you think about casting? I mean, I was lucky to make some mistakes on short films casting where you get too caught up in the look of a character that you have in your head or an age of a character or something like that.

2:00:19And then you cast incorrectly. But I think just thinking about what is the spirit of this character and who can pull that across. and then looking for that and letting go of like what, how the character was written on the surface, you know? And I don't know, just thinking, like this was such a joy, like it's what every filmmaker kind of dreams of to be able to have like Paul Schneider come in for a day and just be able to play with him or John Deal come in for a few days and deliver some heartbreaking performance, you know? like it's a it's a dream come true but then also all the people who have you know some of them have never acted and and turn beautiful things um uh beautiful performances in the film um and it's just trying to treat everybody trying to think about what's what what what you need to get across with the character and then finding the right person that you want to watch in an audition tape or you want to sit across from if you meet them at a in an audition room or in a coffee shop that you want to just like hear whatever they're going to say next whatever it is and then um and then figure out a way to tailor the moment and the way you shoot the moment to just bring out the best in them um uh and nathaniel arcand is another he plays ignatius jack he's another example of that where he's just like a really special person that you just want to like put him on screen you know and if you want to hang out with that person and talk to them chances are like you know the audience is going to feel that way as well.

2:01:54Sean Fennessey:It's interesting. I always think of that as like a way to understand what a filmmaker is interested in is who they pick to be in their movie. You know, obviously you're working with other people, but it's like indicative of an energy that is trying to be communicated by the energy of the actor. Like when you put John Deal in your movie, you're like saying something because he's an interesting kind of actor where he can be very sinister. Oh yeah. And he can be very warm. Yeah. And he's a sweetheart of a man. But yeah, growing up watching the stuff he did with Michael Mann and Stargate and all of that.

2:02:23And he's like, can be a scary dude. For sure. But then also like, but seeing him trying to tie his shoes is like one of those heartbreaking things.

2:02:31Sean Fennessey:I'm curious what your experience with Sing Sing taught you about this larger apparatus. Because that's a movie that is somewhat similar to this one insofar as like, it played at a festival. It was acquired. It had a long run up to its release. You're in the awards conversation. That's a complicated thing to be plunged into over a long period of time. What did you learn from it? What does that mentality teach you about how to be a successful filmmaker now? Setting aside what happens when you're on set or cutting the movie. From the production standpoint or from the release standpoint? Just this being a vocation for you.

2:03:05Sean Fennessey:This being something that you do for a living. Oh, yeah. Only very recently for a living in terms of being able to make it work. um i think actually jockey was the big one where i remember we had before we got into sundance with jockey we had gotten rejected from several festivals and um and greg and i had like we had a little money left over in the budget and we were putting together a plan for like self distribution and um hoping we would get a festival release and all that i remember making that making a decision there where i was just like this is what i want to do as a trade and and as an as a as an art form and it's probably never going to work out in terms of um making a lot of money at it i was doing a lot of stuff like editing insurance videos on the side and things like that um and um and doing some script work uh with greg that we could get paid for um and i was like you know i'll like maybe work at the post office or or work a contracting job and then and then you know every few years get a couple hundred thousand dollars and make a little movie and and that's fine that's great like and that's where jockey like that that happened before anything happened with sundance and and all of that um and then it was also interesting to watch with sing sing it was interesting to watch that process because it was an eight-year process and greg knew immediately after trans pecos very quickly after that he wanted to do that movie and found that subject matter and then there were a lot of reasons i think in the in the universe that that got pushed back and and it was better that that he made it when he made it um and that it took the time that it did but it was interesting to watch like that was a movie that like a lot of the industry told greg not to do that movie you know they're like no no you did a thriller with transpeak like do another thriller like that and um and that was an interesting thing to see that like when it finally came back around and he made the movie that he wanted to make initially and followed his gut and, and, um, and we put that movie out, like the response that it got and how special it was and all of that.

2:05:17That was, that was a really interesting lesson. You don't always know how the outcome is going to be, but, but, but just to like make what you want to make and what you feel drawn to make and don't try and reverse engineer some version of success financially or critically or anything like that.

2:05:33Sean Fennessey:Requires patience. It's funny. I think about from my very small little experience with Jockey, I had almost the opposite viewpoint where I was like, this movie is not getting enough attention because it's COVID. And I watched it in virtual Sundance. And it's a very good film. And it's a film that even in 2014, it would have been easier to exhibit that movie and draw an audience. And things have changed a lot in independent film over this, since you guys have been at this. Yeah, totally. How do you feel about the state of it? What do you make of it? Your film is obviously premiering on the largest streaming platform in the universe, which is very exciting, but also different than I imagine how you were thinking about it when you were developing Jockey, for example.

2:06:15I don't know. It's one of those things of like with this one in particular, it's I'm I'm in a very lucky position where I get to have my cake and eat it, too, where where I am. they're giving the film a robust theatrical release and doing a 35 millimeter print of it. And, and Netflix is taking very good care on that side, on the theatrical side and going to let it run as long as people are going to the theaters to see it, you know? Um, and then, but then also it's going to go out on the platform and I have family members who, you know, live out in the country who've like never seen my films, you know, because they don't have a theater near them or something like that um but they have netflix and and thinking about like adolfo's family in brazil is going to be able to watch this the same day as my family and and you know north florida is going to be able to watch it like i'm excited about that that's a beautiful thing the landscape overall especially as an independent filmmaker it's like one of those things where it's a weird time and i think like there's it's a very strange time to think about bringing films out and it's odd because like there's more ways to get your film out than ever to people.

2:07:24And there's no lack of desire. There's no lack of audience out there. There's no lack of desire of people to watch them. And yet there's fewer and fewer like distributors. And I think the whole industry is just trying to figure out what's what, you know, what's up from down in terms of how to put a movie out. But at the same time, like, I don't know, as independent filmmakers, we're kind of like alley cats anyways, where you just make do with whatever you got at the time and don't think too much about it. I don't know, just try and make something good and hope that people see it.

2:07:57Sean Fennessey:It's funny, though, because you were saying that you didn't really see this as an occupation until recently, but now you're probably in this situation where you'll get a script sent to you and it'll be a studio movie and you'll get to say, yeah, I do want to make a movie that costs$75 million and does X, Y. Do you feel yourself transitioning into that phase, or do you think you guys will keep working in the way that you have been? I don't know. When does your Marvel movie start? Yeah, I'm trying to think if I can break the news now or not. I'm just kidding. I don't know that anybody would look at Train Dreams and be like, you know what we need him to do is the new Ant-Man.

2:08:35Sean Fennessey:I don't know, man. Somebody looked at Nomadland and they did. That's fair. It happens. It definitely happens. That's true. um i i don't know i really like it'd be nice to have a little more money but at the same time like then then then we did on train dreams um but at the same time it's a nice space to be and i think looking at like looking at my the filmmakers who i would like love to have a career like or or some sort of like body of work like like how the coen brothers came up you know um Or like, or Malik as well, like in terms of outside of like a 20 year gap, but like taking, taking like stair steps up and, and kind of staying in your lane and, and figuring out like what your voice is or how Fellini came up, you know, like a step at a time, I think is just like, it's typically more interesting that way.

2:09:38and that's not to say it's not to make big jumps a lot of filmmakers do it and do great at it but I'm kind of a slow learner myself so Ant-Man 4 yes is that what we're on? I think so I think it's 4

2:09:52Sean Fennessey:good luck thanks we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen are you seeing much as you are exhibiting the movie around the world? unfortunately because I'm like on the road like exhibiting this movie and then I've got a four month old at home. Oh, congrats. Thank you. That's insane timing. And so the last great one I watched was How Green Is My Valley. Oh, yeah. How Green Was My Valley. Definitely a movie with some relationship to your film. Yeah. Kind of similar themes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very good film. It's much maligned historically because it beats Citizen Kane.

2:10:30I know. I didn't realize that. But it's a beautiful film. Gorgeous. I think one of Ford's best movies. I agree. And just so, I found myself like the last half, just crying through the last half. It's hard when you have years like that where we have to have a best and you've got like Citizen Kane in that movie. It's like, what do you do? But I think in terms of new releases, like, I mean, just like every, just jumping in the choir here of One Battle After Another.

2:10:56Sean Fennessey:Yeah, you're like the ninth person to say it on the show. Of course. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty cool though. What did you like about One Battle? I mean, I'm inclined to like anything that PTA does. Same. and so I enjoyed it but just like I don't know the freshness of it I could like Benicio Del Toro's character I need a whole movie of him like I loved it Clint your film is beautiful congratulations thanks for being here thank you very much thank you for having me this was really fun thank you to Clint Bentley thanks to Juliet Littman thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode next week Amanda and I will talk about sentimental value and regretting you and take stock of the Best Picture Race.

2:11:35Sean Fennessey:We'll see you then.

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