2026 Finals Lessons, Giannis’s Next Stop, Brunson’s Apex, and Mike Brown’s Magic Touch With Doc Rivers

23:20I remember. Yeah, that still bothers me, you know, that loss to the Bulls. We were up 2-0. and then

23:28Bill Simmons:well Jordan put the double nickel on you in game three right or game four well no game three the media and I and I felt it oh I like this I don't know if we've talked about this game three what happened with the media it was I want to say a three or four day break yeah between game two and three which allowed them to kind of capture themselves a little bit but more importantly the media beat up Jordan every day because they saw that he was at a casino right and for four days or three days or whatever it was Michael Jordan is sitting at home hearing that he let his team down. Does he care anymore?

24:04Bill Simmons:What's wrong with this guy? He's out gambling. Yeah. You know, and yeah, Jordan happened from that point on. I think one of the toughest things with evaluating, so I look at that Knicks team, and it basically comes down to the Charles Smith sequence, right? Yeah. And you could blame, okay, Charles Smith should have scored. Maybe you should have had a slightly better player than Charles Smith, like et cetera, et cetera. Or you go the other way and go, this is why the Bulls are so great. They protected the rim and they had no center out there. And those guys were so great in the moment. That's what made that team special.

24:37Bill Simmons:That's the difference. It's not that Charles Smith missed the three layups. I lost BJ Armstrong late in the game and he got a three. It's a play we worked on all the time that you had to block out, but not get sealed. And I had to block out, I think it was Horace Grant. and as I was blocking him out, I got too low, and now he seals me in that I couldn't get back on the ball swing, and BJ makes a three. I think we missed two technical foul free throws in that game. I always took, I was the best free throw shooter on the team. I think I played, I'm going to go look now that I'm thinking about it, I think I played 38 minutes or 37 minutes.

25:21Both techs were in the time that I was out of the game. and so whoever shot him missed him um so it was all like it was like 10 little tiny things yeah it's always and Michael Jordan but at the end of the day uh who was our second best player yeah I'm not sure Starks was by the way he played but he wasn't really the second best player every night um where you know they had Pippen uh you know it was clear who their second best so they Pippen was one of the seven best guys in the league. Exactly. So when you make that case, it's hard to say that you would have won, but I think we would have. We had a chance.

25:57Bill Simmons:I mean, San Antonio was a little like that too, right? Like, who was their second best player? Well, it was Fox all year. But it might have been Harper by the time we got to the finals. By game seven, or by game three, game three, it was Fox. Something with Fox, I mean, it was Harper. Something with Harper that he would make a mistake and come out and go back in. So So, you know, there's this old adage, you don't know a player until you coach a player. There's something that he was doing that made him come out at times. And I couldn't figure it out. Interesting. Yeah. So he's a 20-year-old point guard.

26:33Yeah, that's part of it. You were a point guard. Yeah. And he's like me, too, because 100 times better than me. You were really good. I wasn't a point guard in college. Yeah. I just led the team in assists. Yeah. And then when I got drafted, I remember my first conversation with Mike Ferteller. He said, you're going to be the point guard of the Atlanta Hawks. And I'm like, okay. You figure it out.

26:56Bill Simmons:It's like Dennis Johnson. Exactly. But we didn't have, in the 80s, we didn't have some traditional point guards like the way people think of them. Well, we had some. It was like guys would bring up the ball and run the offense. Isaiah was a traditional point guard. Well, then you would have the Isaiah John Lucas, like Tiny Archibald types. Magic wasn't traditional. Yeah. But he was a pure point guard. Yeah. You know? So, yeah, I think Harper is that and probably didn't execute things properly all the time, you know, but he'll learn all that. I mean, he is special. He's a special basketball player and he will be their second best player.

27:30Like I was trying to think of him in the context of when like kid came into the league or Chris Paul.

27:37Bill Simmons:Yeah. People like that where you knew right away. I feel like that with him. Yeah, Harper. Yeah, but they're completely different. Totally. Harper is a scorer. He's a scoring point. It reminded me more of Rod Strickland with his finishing. I mean, he can... Harper finishes at angles... I think it was game five, the one where he was under the basket and comes up. The reverse, yeah. Come on. I couldn't have made that in the gym by myself. I could have tried that shot 10 times and I'm missing it all 10 times. He's doing it in the NBA Finals with ease. It's amazing. And now it's time for Across the Eras brought to you by New Era, the official cap of the NBA.

28:16Bill Simmons:So we just had the finals, and as always, I thought a lot about history and the eras intersecting and some of the greatest matchups we've seen throughout history. The New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection celebrates these legendary teams and eras and moments, so perfect time to put the finals matchup side by side with a classic from the past. Gotta talk about Reggie Miller here. Like, when you think about New Era, are players that bridge eighties nineties, two thousands, Reggie Miller drafted in the eighties really starts to hit it in the nineties. First there, uh, I think it was 91. He's in the, the Larry Bird's last great moment, the 91 Boston and Anna final, uh, first round.

29:00Bill Simmons:And then we go through now he has the next battles and 94 and 95, and then you go to 99. Um, they get the heartbroken by LJ's, um, four point play 2000. They make the finals and it really feels like Reggie is going to finally get there and win it. And then sadly for him, Kobe ascends. Um, and then not to mention in 98, they came the closest out of anyone to beating Jordan's bowls. So he intersects with bird, Jordan, uh, Kobe and Shaq. And then you go into the 2000s and he has one last run. Like they almost beat the Nets. Um, he's not involved in the art test melee, but he's on that team. Um, he just saw a lot of things, man.

29:44Bill Simmons:And the best of the sports totally different by the time, by the time he's, uh, he's leaving there in the mid two thousands. Cause this three point shot that he was special at, um, now it's about to come back in a big way because Steph Curry is about to join the NBA and the league and the Geometry League is about to change. So Reggie Miller is a good one. 80s all the way through the mid-2000s and boom, sports changing. Relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the NBA, I'm sorry, with the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection. Available in a wide range of silhouettes including the iconic fitted 50-950 or adjustables like the 940 of frame and 970.

30:24Bill Simmons:And some great Hardwood Classics apparel as well. Visit neweracap.com to shop now. Use one-time code RINGER for 20 % off your first order. This episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG. If I'm ever traveling for work, where I stay is so important. I actually really care about this because sometimes I even have to do a podcast wherever I'm staying. In general, I don't go on the road that much, but when I go on the road, I like to be in a nice hotel with a nice room. I'm spoiled. If you sound like me, check out Holiday Inn. It has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. You'll see it everywhere from refresh rooms to reimagined social spaces and dining done right with new drinks and dishes.

31:11Bill Simmons:And for business, there are flexible spaces that work for the way you work. It's a new day and a new stay. Book now at HolidayInn.com. This episode is brought to you by Fox One, where you can watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup Live in 4K for just$19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, follow player spotlights, customize your audio, stay on top of the action with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. Don't miss a moment. Watch the FIFA World Cup Live on Fox One. Offers are subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. so you talk about like the little differences between teams like so i went to the bird dominique game which you were great and you got you got a standing o when you fouled out yeah that was cool that was nice the crowd appreciated you that was the breaking point for me with boston that was it you were like i like these people yeah i hated boston yeah uh when i was a player yeah um and that changed my entire mindset of boston i love these people these people are pretty cool well So Dominique, at one point, he's number two in MVP.

32:21Bill Simmons:Yeah. He's one of the five or six best players in the league for five years. And that's like his moment to either ascend or not ascend, right? And Bird's like just a whiff better than him. Yeah. Partly because Dominique, I wouldn't say, was the strongest defender, right? And you didn't have that. Maybe if you're doing it now with a different team, you're throwing different guys at Bird. We call it he was an occasionally great defender. Sporadic. Yeah. I remember Fratello saying that occasionally Dominic is the greatest defender in the league. Right. We just need that to be more. Well, but I think.

32:55Bill Simmons:But he has a score. But he's a, well, that's the thing. He's carrying a lot offensively and he comes so, and that's the closest he ever comes, right? Yeah. And then you go back to the Lakers who end up taking Worthy over him. Yeah. And Worthy ends up in all these games and he's big game James and he has the big game seven and 88. And Dominic's on this other team where he has a much bigger burden. and if you flip them... You don't know. You don't know, but I... Yeah, I mean, that Tracy McGrady made that comment that if I was on the Lakers, I would have... And I said, no. You just don't know. But think about Dominique on the Showtime Lakers.

33:29Bill Simmons:That might have been pretty spectacular. It would have been fun, for sure. But he also wouldn't have been able to guard Bird in the finals. I don't know what you win in this. But it would have been interesting. I love doing that. If such and such was here, would he have won as much or won less or won more? Yeah. I think it's hard to say. Like Tom Chambers is another one. Yes. Who is really good. It's like if he had just been on the Lakers instead of Worthy, would we be talking about him reverentially as one of the best forwards in the end? It helps. I mean, Magic was, again, the reason Magic, I struggle taking Magic out of the top five of all time.

34:04He's fifth for me. Yeah, because of not what he did is his presence. he made I mean he resurrected Kareem Abdul Jabbar's career and his love for basketball yeah he'd gone from the Lakers were losing games not playing well I don't know if you remember their first game was against the Clippers

34:26Bill Simmons:yeah yeah and the hug game and the hug game yeah I mean I think that changed Jabbar's second half of his life basketball wise and it was huge I forget who said this on my podcast I'm going to say it was Nick Wright, but I'm not positive. It was recent. Certain players love playing basketball because they love playing basketball. And then certain players play because they absolutely love winning and want to win all the time. And Magic was one of the few who was both at the same time. He loved basketball, but he also really, really loved winning. Yeah, it's funny with Magic. Going into my rookie year, they used to have that barnstorming tour in Michigan.

35:06And I was included in that. we would go and sell out in Lansing and after the game, and I'm not being honest the gate, they would bring the gate in the cash and Charles Tucker would it's like the godfather it'd be 10 for Magic 5 for Isaiah, 1 dollar for Doc you know and it was unbelievable but I remember going to Magic's house you know, we were sitting there Magic was out, I want to say he was playing Mark McGuire tennis in the backyard. And I'm just sitting at the...

35:41Bill Simmons:Isaiah was playing Mark Aguirre in tennis? No, Magic was. Magic was. He was playing Mark... Because Magic had a tennis court in the back of his house. Okay. And we're just... We're not watching the game. We're sitting in the house, drinking Kool-Aid or whatever, just hanging out. And I was sitting there and Magic busts the door open. It throws a racket across the room and just walks and leaves. And I'm like, what the... What is going on here? And he lost. he lost a tennis match he lost to Mark Aguirre he lost a tennis match and I want to say wherever we were supposed to go that night he didn't want to go I mean he I was like this guy doesn't like losing well wasn't that KG was like that right the practices oh yeah KG you know what's great about KG he loved the competition in practice but he also loved when the other team was into it you know that first practice we had the starters lost and the whole bus ride you know, we were in Rome.

36:39The whole bus ride, Eddie Howes, Tony, they're giving it to him. Just giving it to him. And Kevin's like, alright, yeah, okay. That next day, it was incredible. The energy that he brought to that practice. That was one of the days I told Tibbs, I was like, we're going to be hard to beat.

36:58Bill Simmons:Speaking of Tibbs, they just win the title the year after he gets fired. Yeah, that's tough. Do you take that as a positive or a negative if you're Tibbs? because I got a great email a couple days ago from a listener who's like, Tibbs conditioned these guys in a lot of different ways and he should get some credit for this, right? Tibbs should get a lot of credit defensively. They didn't vary from that sense, the system. Brendan O 'Connor was my assistant coach in Boston and with the Clippers is who Mike Brown hired as his defensive coach this year. and that's we're all from the the uh dick harder system of defense so he brought that to the knicks it was already kind of in brendan made a lot of changes but you know it was pretty cool having said that bill you're a human all right and if if i was fired uh and then team won the world championship the following year uh i get i would know deep down that i really helped that team.

38:02But it wouldn't feel that way as you're watching it. Yeah, and I think Tibbs was very happy for a lot of their guys.

38:07Bill Simmons:Yeah. Probably not all of them, but for a lot of their guys. But it also, it hurts you too. It's just human, man. We forget that we're all humans, and that would hurt a little bit, for sure. Where would you put Jalen Brunson against Isaiah and some of the other, Chris Paul, some of the other tough little guys? We had that, well, I think Like, you know, and nothing against Chris. I think you would just put him against all the guys who have won titles. Yeah, yeah. I think you would have to shorten that list. That becomes a much shorter list. That's basically Isaiah, Tony Parker, and Gus Williams.

38:43Yeah, that's who you have to put him against, you know, because he powered them. You say Gus Williams? Good call.

38:52Bill Simmons:Yeah, Gus Williams. I apologized to him on my Monday podcast because I forgot to mention him in the great small guards because he always gets left out. And he was the best guy in the 79 Sonics. What about Kuz? Kuz never won a title without Russell, though. Yeah, that's true. And Russell was the best player on the team. Yeah, good point. Because he was close, close, close. Russell showed up a lot easier when Russell was there. Yeah, so I would start with that list first, and then you can go back to the other guards because Brunson was so much different. Like, all the small guards would have really struggled guard Brunson.

39:24I mean, all of them. Now, he would have struggled guarding them as well.

39:29Bill Simmons:Because one of the things, so I did my thing yesterday and I had him ahead of Luka all time. Right now. I had a Laker fan who was like, that's insane. That's not insane. Luka's 33 and 9 and I'm like, yeah, but the whole point of basketball is winning the title. Luka was in a similar situation in the 24 finals right against Boston. They're down 2-0 in game three. And then he has that whole thing where he kind of implodes and fouls out and then tells him to challenge it. But that's part of it, Bill. Do you have the makeup to win? That's what I was telling him. That's what people keep missing. So you're telling me if you switch Luka and Brunson, would Nick still win the title with Luka?

40:10Bill Simmons:Or are you discounting all the other stuff Brunson did for that team? The fact that he got better when it mattered all the time. I would say no, they wouldn't, at least from what I've seen so far. And I love Luka. Right. He's just not there yet. Not yet. And health, conditioning. Can Luka sustain that type of intensity for that long? I don't know if he could or couldn't, but I know Brunson could. And there's something about whatever Brunson did with that team, that the guys around him were the best versions of themselves, which I think should count as a trait for basketball players. That's something KG was great at.

40:46It's what Casey Jones told me. We were sitting around in my office one day and I said, so what was Bill Russell's secret? He always left for him. that's what he said it's like he knew for him to be great he had to give everybody else enough room to be great as well what what you you keep hearing it so often by players you know i gotta play my game i got you know they gotta let me play my game okay we will but that means he can't play his game if you're going to be dribbling the ball or he can't play his game and so i'll let you play your game, but we're going to lose. Or can you play your game and allow him to play his game and him to play his game and your team win?

41:29Because if you can't do that, if you think the only way you can win is just with you with the ball in your hand, every possession. Yeah, but a lot of people think that. But it hasn't happened. It's in the history of the game. It's never happened. It has never happened in the history of basketball that a guy, every time down, just dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, either shot it or passed it. No one's ever won that way. So, I mean, I love history.

41:59Bill Simmons:Right, and even when Brunson was playing that way, it was more because he kind of had to for like nine straight minutes or they weren't going to score. Yeah, but they also moved the ball. They advanced the ball. They got it back to him. They had fast break points. But down the stretch, they went to that. Yeah. Other parts, they went away from that. What they did a great job of, they knew when it was too much Brunson. And what Mike did so well this year is he instilled the ball movement, you know, playing through towns, even without towns, just moving the ball, where in the past they hadn't done that.

42:35It just stayed in Brunson's hand. It's almost like they had a little barometer. Uh-oh, it's too much. And they got away from it, and then they would go back to it. So I thought that was the difference. The other thing with Mike Brown, he used the hell out of his bench. Right. He really did. I thought Mike Brown coached an amazing series. Even his challenges were like that. And that doesn't mean that, well, the Knicks have the best challenge system in the NBA. It's swung games. They're challenges. It's funny, though, Bill. People think it's the coach, head coach. The head coach has very little to do.

43:11It's some dude that he trusts completely on the bench. And the Knicks, I think, two or three years in a row have led the NBA in challenges. It's a weapon. Right. And they're good at it. They're quick. You know, I remember we played them last year and I was like, do they have a quicker computer? I mean, what the hell is going on? But the guy actually also understood, you have to understand the rules. You have to understand the rules to be a good challenger. Was that a foul before the play? Why use your timeout now? you know is this the right time even if you're right uh they had one in game one or two where they were right they knew it but they didn't challenge because they already had one challenge that they won and they were like no this isn't the perfect time for us to use the second if we use the second one now we're done and they end up using it in the third or fourth quarter where it came back to really help them so yeah they're really good at but what else mike did was that bench, man.

44:09Bill Simmons:Well, to do what he did without Towns, basically playing half the game and just figuring out how to patch together non-Towns minutes so that they could hang around. Impressive. He had the courage. He had more courage than I did as a coach in bigger games. What do you mean? He was putting in guys that he hadn't played. That was something you just wouldn't do? Unless the guy has proven it all year. But he puts in different guys. He went away from Deuce. He should have. Deuce in the finals couldn't make a shot. So then he goes to Sham. I love that one. Hook 40. Hook 40 out of nowhere? Yeah. And then he goes to Clarkson.

44:54Clarkson and Blade throughout the series. Game 4, the comeback, he stays with Alvarado. Stays with him. Now I did that. You remember we won the one game where I didn't bring in Paul or none of the big three. It was the big baby Nate Robinson. Oh, in 2009. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that group. And we won, I think it was a finals game maybe, with that group on the floor. But I had played them all year, so I did have more confidence in them. But he had gone away from Clarkson all year. You know, it's funny. He did put them in in the NBA Cup game, if you remember. he hadn't used him and Clarkson came in and played great but even in that game, the cup game against the Spurs, Tyler he put him in and he played great so I loved him Mike kept trusting everybody I thought that was really impressive it's funny, he got fired

45:52Bill Simmons:three times, four times including recently in Sacramento it's called coaching meanwhile all the other coaches were like Mike Brown's a really good coach and then finally he's in the right spot Now he's getting standing ovations in restaurants. Yeah, now he'll never have to pay for another meal. Did that happen to you after 08 when you're walking in a restaurant? Oh, my God, in Boston. Still does. Because they had a quip. He walked into the polo lounge in New York. Everybody just started standing up and doing this. Yeah, but right out there, I remember I was walking in, me and Sam Cassell, and it was a little uncomfortable.

46:26Yeah. I walk in a restaurant and people stand up and try to pay. You had no chance of paying. I did like that. I'm known for being a little tight. So I absolutely love that part. Yeah.

46:40Bill Simmons:Yeah, because the Celts were 22 years. This was 53. Yeah. But it had a little bit of the same stuff of like, you know, a lot of losing. A lot of like, I remember back when we were good and now we're not. Yeah. And, you know, Boston's fans now have gone through so much winning. You know, when I. Now we get upset when we're bouncing around one. Exactly. When I got to Boston, the Red Sox hadn't won in a thousand years. Yeah. The Patriots hadn't won. The Bruins hadn't won. The Celtics hadn't won. Then all of a sudden, we're all winning. And I used to always think back to, man, there's a kid that's seven years old that thinks, this is how it is.

47:15Right.

47:16Bill Simmons:That's Sully from the Celtics. Yeah. His sons, all day, they were born like right when Brady showed up. They were born at the perfect time in Boston. They think winning is like they're entitled to win. It was 13 titles. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. I don't know, however many years that was. One thing on Brunson, so I was arguing with a Luka friend of mine, and we started talking about Harden. It's like, you know, I know you don't like Harden. There's just no way Harden was worse than Brunson. Like, Harden has to be above Brunson. I'm like, all right, make the case. So he makes the case. It's like, he won the MVP.

47:52Bill Simmons:You know, he's 36 points a game. We're like arguing back and forth about it. And I was like, all right, I hear everything. give me your best heart in here 2018 he's like 2018 i'm like all right take 2018 hardin and put him on this next team do you think they win the title and he goes well but that's and i was like that's your answer that's the answer that's your answer that's why brunson has to be ahead of hardin that is because you just said you just already started stammering and making excuses yeah it's it's the answer that we should all go by right you know there's a lot of players You know, James is a phenomenal player.

48:28He's in my top 50. I still think the best part of his game he doesn't like as much as I love. The point guard putt. Yeah. I think he has as good a vision as anybody that I've seen next to Rondo and Chris. Yeah. But he can score, too. And he liked to dribble. He liked to hold the ball. See, James doesn't give everybody else enough room to be great. Yeah. he is the only one that can be great on this team. He has to be the greatest. Yeah. I don't even think it's a jealousy thing. I really don't. I just think it's the way he plays, and that's how he plays. As you said, he's a system. But that system, to me, is not the way to win.

49:16I still go back. You look with James with us in Philly, the first half of the year. Yeah. He gave himself up to the team. He was playing unbelievable basketball. And I thought there was nobody better than us. Yeah. And then it kind of changed. He wanted to go back. You could see it slowly. Like he was uncomfortable in that role. One of the things I did like about that sucker though, he practiced every day. It's funny how people don't look at him like that. James Harden loves playing basketball. And he's durable. Very. I told Ty Lue that. I said, listen, you're going to need a guy that practices every day, and he's going to play 80 games.

49:58Like, there's something good about that. The bad part is, can you win with it?

50:04Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by New Era. All right, if you love the 90s NBA, listen up. New Era just dropped the Hardwood Classics 90s collection, and it's stacked. It pays respect to the Golden Era basketball with iconic teams like the Bulls, Rockets, Spurs, Suns, and Pistons. Obviously, my favorite is the Celtics. I was really jealous of the 90s Suns hats, jerseys, shirts, everything, but Celtics is my team. Plus, 90s All-Star Game Caps, complete with host team side patches for that authentic throwback feel. Available in a wide range of fitted and adjustable styles. Visit neweracap.com slash ringer to shop now and use one-time code ringer for 20 % off your first order.

50:41Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by TikTok. Did you know you can use TikTok to connect even more with the sports you love? It's not just highlights. It's everything around the game. including the sports community. Find breakdowns of classic basketball plays, deep dives on baseball stats, even videos on how athletes train and recover. There are people teaching strategy, sports, history, even ways to improve your jump shot. It's kind of like the biggest locker room ever and everyone's sharing what they know on TikTok. The other thing I've been talking to people about is the 10-week playoff run and being durable and actually getting better as those 10 weeks goes along versus going the other way.

51:20Bill Simmons:I think Wemby is a decent example of this, but he's 22. But I think every team does that, and every player. What you want is that grind is so hard, and you've got to keep climbing the rungs, and some guys can't do it. And even LeBron in 2011, by the time we got to the finals against Dallas, he cratered. He had to learn how to win. He had to learn how to win. He hadn't figured it out yet. But I thought LeBron's growth, where he became one of the best all time, was between 11 and 12. Yeah, right. And I thought— And sadly, you were part of the shrapnel in 2012. Yeah, yeah. But I remember we played them in a game, maybe a preseason game, and he was calling out the sets.

52:05And I remember turning to—I think it was Lawrence Frank. You were like, oh. And I was like, oh, this is different. Yeah. he didn't he didn't prepare before like that he came out and played but he was 21 over here he's going i was like wow now that's different and when he started doing that uh the other thing i thought miami you know uh kevin garnett and him loved it uh i showed a video before game one a two it was before game one we played you know 2012 yeah they were the you know the big favorites You know, we were old. And I showed a video of Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and LeBron before the game doing their thing.

52:49The handshake thing. After the game, they would do it. And I said, those three guys cannot beat us 12 guys. And until they figure out that they're going to need those other nine guys. We got these guys. They can't beat us.

53:06Bill Simmons:You know what you weren't counting on? being about to go up 3-2 in game five and all your guys talking so much shit to LeBron that he finally said, all right, fuck this. Well, not all our guys. Paul. Paul can't stop talking. Is that the all-time bad trash talk story? Oh, my God. He probably changed the course of LeBron's career. Yeah, actually, I do think if we had won that series somehow, they were about to break them up because they had lost the year before. Chris Bosh was gone. They at least trade Chris Bosh. Yeah, somebody was gone. But I feel that way about the 2016 Cavs. if they lose to Golden State, Kevin Love is out of there the next day.

53:40It's amazing. It's amazing how it bounces or something. Right. You know, I always use Jeff Van Gundy, who I think is an excellent coach. All right? But Jeff Van Gundy was about to get fired with the Knicks. And Allen Houston takes a shot. Oh, in 99, yeah. And the ball bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce on the rim and goes that way. If the ball goes this way, Jeff Van Gundy's fired. the Bucs if Kevin Durant's foot was back this much they were going to fire Bud.

54:12Bill Simmons:Well I think the 2014 Clippers is a good what if team. Yes. Because you have Sterling happening which is still one of the craziest things that teams ever had to deal with during the playoffs. And then just Chris Paul the safest bet on the planet just having a complete meltdown in the last minute of game 4 or game Game five, Oklahoma City. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I thought, I don't know if we would have won it or not. Because when you look back, and that's where some of the players get mad at me when I say it. When you look back on our team, we didn't get along the way we were supposed to, to win.

54:49And so if you didn't have great chemistry, it's hard to win. But that year, I thought we kind of had it. Blake and Chris kind of whatever their stuff was and that happened before I got there they kind of moved it to the side there were so many mistakes and Chris was literally the smartest player that I coached in my career I think Ronald was the smartest

55:18Bill Simmons:who also never made mistakes he had the best turnover ratio never turned the ball up But we were supposed to foul out of the timeout. His guy got it. He didn't foul. He tried to trick the game. That was the one thing that me and him butt heads about all the time. You don't need to trick the game. Oh, the— Yeah. You remember he threw the ball, and honestly, he did get fouled. Yeah. But they didn't call it. Right. And so Oklahoma gets it, and they come back and scores. That was like when Brunson got fouled for 10 seconds left, and they didn't call it. They didn't call it. But the ball went to Bridges.

55:48Bill Simmons:Yeah, so— That was almost a disaster. It was going to be a disaster. So that's, you know, but man, that changed the fortune of the Clippers. That one game really did. Yeah, you had that one. We've talked about this before on pods, but the ones that you almost could have won and two bad things happened are way worse than winning. Well, I've had the— Winning is here in the losses. The seesaw is— Yeah, the winning is always, if you win it all, there's nothing that's ever going to beat that. except for mentally your losses hurt more right you know you think more about the losses than timbs and i talk about 210 way more than 28 and that's you're not being like oh remember that oh wait the trade series that was great that's that's what coaches i mean i had the 3-1 lead against detroit where we were we wasn't supposed to be in that series if you ever go back and look at our the magic team uh yeah and then tracy mcgrady stands up this series is over right you know i didn't know he said that but that's he said it in the media nobody should ever say that never never and think about this rick carlisle got fired because of that series yeah because joe dumars i guess all year said you got to play this kid named tayshaun prince and he didn't play him all year and then game four he put him in at the end of the game and he was phenomenal by game seven he was their go-to guy i mean it was crazy yeah and i really believe that's what got rick fired Jesus.

57:17Bill Simmons:Yeah. We were talking on a previous podcast about these teams that got the secret, which like the 04 Pistons is a good example. Yeah. This Knicks team, the 14 Spurs. Now there's other, like the 08 Celtics were so talented. It's almost like the talent is going to. Yeah, but it was more the play. We played together. Right. So when do you know that it happens as a coach? Is there a moment during the season or playoffs? With the Knicks, it was the last 16 games. But that's how it happens most of the time. We were not ready to win when the playoffs started. People think we were. We went seven games against the Hawks.

57:55The first two teams. And the second series was Cleveland, who was probably the second best team in the East. Another seven-game series. Where we turned into a championship team was when we lost game two at home against Detroit. then it flipped that's when when we went to detroit and won that was the moment that we went from here to here and for the knicks it was game four atlanta right and what i try to tell people each round as much as these players think they know and coaches all of us If you're good in the first round, your team is different in the second round. You win that round, your team is different again in the third round because you keep growing.

58:41You keep trusting. Guys start either becoming more unselfish. They start seeing themselves with a chance to win. Each round, your team gets better. Each round, it does. And that's every team. What's your theory for why home court advantage seemingly does not matter anymore? Well, I don't have one. I really don't. I've thought about it. You know, the talent, the offense. Three-point shooting variance. Travel.

59:08Bill Simmons:I think the travel's easier. What about DMs and Tinder and all? You don't have to go to clubs to meet girls anymore. That helps. That helps. You know. That'll help Dominique. As I think Pat Riley said, it's not the act. Yeah. It's the chasing. Right. You know, so, yeah, I think all that. But I do think it's the three-point shot that has changed. Because the Knicks won two in Cleveland. Yeah. And then all three in San Antonio. Well, look at last year, Indiana. Another one. They didn't care where they played. Yeah, there's no, but shooting, three-point shooting has changed. There's no lead that's safe anymore.

59:48Bill Simmons:I have a Boston fan friend of mine says the biggest thing that's changed is they have all these rules that the fans can't be super mean to the other team anymore. Oh, no. They're still pretty mean. Because, you know, there's been teams where they would put people behind the visiting bench and they would just yell at the guys the whole game. They had Leon the Barber in Detroit. That era's kind of over, too. That era's gone. Yeah, you don't feel like you're, oh, my God, it's a little dangerous. You know, it's funny as a player. I love the road. I love playing on the road. Well, those are always the best wins, right?

1:00:19When you shut the crowd up. There's nothing better. It's the most powerful position. I wanted to beat the Lakers so bad in game five.

1:00:26Bill Simmons:Yeah. I wanted to win there so bad. I just talked about this game in a podcast because I was telling a story about how that next game five with Foster reminded me of game 508 with Foster where Ray Allen had five fouls in the second half. Quick, yeah. And so did Paul Pierce. Yeah. And Ray Allen fouled out of the game. How many games did Ray Allen foul out of his life? Yeah, not many. But that was one of those where I was like, I just wish we'd gotten a good whistle. well either. I thought that was the first game. The only game. You can't get fined anymore. It was 20 years ago. You didn't get any whistles.

1:01:00I thought that was, yeah, that's well, we didn't get any whistles in the game seven. That's for a whole nother show. You know, the officiating changed from the first half to the second half, you know, in that seventh game in 210. When they allowed Pau Gasol to just shove everybody around. Yeah. It went from, they wasn't calling anything to, I think it was 17 to five.

1:01:20Bill Simmons:But that's a good example of the little margins, right? So why did we ultimately – I'm going to say we like I was playing. Well, it's a we. Why did we lose that game? Because Rasheed Wallace had to play 35 minutes. Yeah, yeah. And because Perkins is out and that tilted it just enough. You didn't have – you were 10 men. And Kevin was more like Wimby then in the fact that – Yeah, Wimby. Kevin was exhausted. He had three rebounds in that game. Yeah, Kevin's, once he got back from injury, he never could practice and work the way he worked. And fatigue was a major factor with KG. And that was Gasol was feasting.

1:01:58Yeah, and that's where Gasol, we let him out of, we owned him. And we let him out of the bag.

1:02:03Bill Simmons:Well, that's the thing with these, when you talk about the margins, because a great one was 2016 game seven. Where's Cavs? Bo gets out. Barnes is unplayable. Also, Festus Azele is out there with six minutes left. LeBron targets him, gets six points out of him, and that swings the game, right? And it's like, it's a little thing, but it's not. Yeah, it's a little thing, but it's a huge thing. And I always find that interesting. Like, LeBron had figured out how to win now. You know, he'd won in Miami. He'd gone through those each rounds. And so now he knew how to win. He'd become a winner. It's interesting, though, because I felt like he was, I mean, he's easily one of the four or five smartest players of this century, right?

1:02:46And then he's probably the best athlete

1:02:49Bill Simmons:of this century. But something had to settle in with him. It was almost like a cake. He had to stay in the oven for a while. He had to settle. He had to figure out how to win. And the pressure I think he was putting on himself. If you don't know how to win, how do you know how to? Right. If you haven't won. You don't think he learned from Ricky Davis and Larry Hughes? Some people it's natural. Magic was a winner coming in the pros. He won a national title. the biggest game in, I think, the biggest college game in the history of college basketball. Has to be. And I think it still is. Yeah. You know, I know where I was at when Larry Bird and Magic played.

1:03:26I remember that game.

1:03:29Bill Simmons:Would you see that stat that Brunson was the 15th guy to win high school, college, and NBA? Yeah. I didn't see that stat. No, that's a lot. You know who else is on there? Kareem Russell and Magic. Yeah, I was going to say, that's a lot. Like, Bill, that's, people. That has to matter. It matters more than so many other things. This guy just keeps winning. He may not be done. Well, that team probably has two years left, but now they're going to deal with the Pat Riley disease more. Yeah. I gave up stuff. Now I'm not as excited to give up stuff. I don't really like shooting eight shots a game anymore.

1:04:03Bill Simmons:I'd like to shoot 12. Michael called it the trophy tour. You're going to have to deal with all the trophy tour guys. And I remember asking, what are you talking about? He said, oh, no, these guys, they're carrying the trophy to their hometown. They're having parades for them. They're going to come back. They're going to want more. Trophy tour. I like that. Yeah, he called it the trophy tour. Did you see the Jim Dolan speech? No. About the fan safety? No. This Brunson's podcast, they put the speech on their feed. He gave a 15-minute speech to the team before the playoffs. Wow. Sat in front of them.

1:04:41Bill Simmons:I couldn't believe it. It's like a great speech. It's like a sports movie speech. I have to see this. Gives him this whole speech about, I think this team is going to win the title, but it's only going to happen. If you guys dedicate this, you're going to have to put the team above yourself. It's like he, it was kind of great. He's like, you're going to have to tell. At one point he goes, I'm going to give your wife or your significant other championship rings if we win this because they're going to have to sacrifice too. This has to be all you think about. Wow. This is going to be the hardest thing in your life.

1:05:11That's a Pat Riley speech.

1:05:12Bill Simmons:Well, then he goes, if we win, what this will mean in New York City, I can't even explain to you what's going to happen to everybody in this room. You got to watch it. I was like, I didn't know you had this in you, Jim Dillon. Listen, they've done everything right. Like, Leon, man, we talked about this two podcasts ago about— Leon and Wes, yeah. Yeah, but anybody—and I remember I said, anybody can get the star. I can make a trade. I can take over a team tomorrow and find a way of getting a star. But can you put the right people around them? And God darn, every decision they made came up gold. It came up gold.

1:05:55Bill Simmons:I talked about this before, but do you think the job of being a GM with relationships and knowing kids who turn into adults that you recruited and stuff, that feels like more of an advantage and like West Newtown's when he was 15. Yeah. We're trying to get him to, like he's known that guy forever. So he's like, oh, it's contract. It absolutely matters. No, no, he's a good kid. We got to get him in. Should more owners be looking at people who were like agents? Or agents or even players who want to be front office people. Yeah. You know. Like could Chris Paul do this? I don't know if he has a relationship.

1:06:36Right. But one thing Chris does is he knows players. I guess Jamal Crawford knows everybody in the league. He's voted teammate of the year every year. If you wanted one guy to get, and I'm joking, DeAndre Jordan knows singly every single person in the league. It's funny, when you play on the Olympic team, Coach K calls me, he's like, hey, this guy's the Pipe Piper. I have never seen a guy that everyone wants to be with have we ever talked about this

1:07:09Bill Simmons:because when I had the I still have the Clippers and tickets but when he didn't play he wasn't playing he was like a scrub on the Clippers but before and after the games he knew everybody on the other teams and it was like handshake pugs and I would say to my wife like I don't know what the deal is with this backup center he knows everybody in the league when I got him and you know when I came and we had the big talk and for him my favorite player coach stories of all time I gave him that long list like he told me he wanted to score more and that's why he didn't play well the year before he was pouting it was my first year there it was my first meeting with DJ literally my first meeting, we were at Nobu and I was like so Benny Del Nigger told you that you were going to score more?

1:07:57He said no he told me to work on my offense and then I did that and I didn't get the ball. I said, I'm going to have you work on your offense too, but I'm going to guarantee you one thing. And he says, what's that? I will never call a play for you. Never. And he's looking at me. This is our first meeting. I said, but if you get every rebound, I'm going to make you the defensive captain. I gave him a list. All defense, all-star team, Olympic team, rebounding title, all these lists, and then NBA champion. And it's an emotional one. He checked them all off. And then when he won the title with the Denver Nuggets, I'm built 10 minutes after the game.

1:08:40I get a bing on my phone. It's a picture with him and the trophy. And he had the note. And it said, checked. Wow. How awesome is that? Yeah, that was DeAndre. That was pretty cool. We took J.R. Giddens over him. Yeah, don't get me started. with that one. I'm going to give you the, one thing I loved about Danny, and we wouldn't, me and Danny loved, we had a great relationship. But, my son, Jeremiah, Yeah. had played with some of these guys now. Oh, I think he told me this story. Yeah, and he's texting during the draft. During that draft, J.R. Gidds, he's like, I'm telling you, I've played with him.

1:09:23And Danny loved him. Danny loved him. Well, Danny's had a pretty high batting average. Yeah, that's why. Listen, And I knew what Danny said, let him do it. Whatever. He's right most of the time.

1:09:34Bill Simmons:Well, you know what's funny now? They have the second pick and people like Peterson said he wasn't going to work out for them. Yeah. And it's, nobody's going to know who Utah, anyone who's like, I know what Utah's going to do is like, good luck. Because I don't think people who work for Utah knows what Danny's going to do. It was over game one or game two. I had Larry over and Lawrence Frank. And it's funny, Larry really enjoyed Lawrence Frank because Lawrence is an active... Right, just asking questions. And he's just buzzing with questions. And we started talking about Danny and we were laughing.

1:10:06No one knows what Danny is up to.

1:10:09Bill Simmons:No one. And it's the truth. I think they're going to take Cam Boozer only because of 25 years of watching how Danny thinks about this stuff. I just think he's going to be like, you know what? That guy's just really good. Taking that guy. I will say this about Danny. He knows already. Yeah. I can guarantee you that. Yeah, he's like walking in a bar and seeing a girl. Yeah, now he's trying to sell other franchises on someone else. You know what he does. Have you looked at the draft at all or no? Not much, not yet, no. You're like a retired guy now. Yeah, I'm playing golf. Golfing. Trying to build your endurance up on the course.

1:10:49Bill Simmons:Yeah, terrible golf, but I enjoy it. Well, we got to talk about Giannis trades. Yeah. So when you have a trade hanging over a team like that, and it's not just Giannis and the Bucks, it's other stuff, and then the way stuff's reported now and talked about. How do you navigate that as a coach or you don't? You do. I probably underestimated the damage that it was doing to our team. Yeah. Because, you know, first of all, a lot of the reports, they were just not accurate. Yeah. And, and unfortunately it doesn't matter if they're accurate or not. It's out there. Because the reports are poor and there's six hours of shelf life out of it.

1:11:32You know, as Al Michael says, some of these guys, they report on the news and then they, they didn't do reports on the news that they created. You know? Right. And so it just. It's like a double dip. It's like you go back to the buffet table. It takes a life of its own. because I knew what Giannis was telling me. Yeah. And so some of this stuff just wasn't right, wasn't true. But that doesn't mean the agents wasn't telling someone else something else. You know, it didn't matter. It did damage because if you're a coach, I'm trying to get Bill Simmons to play his role. You're like, play my role?

1:12:11Why am I going to play my role? Our best player doesn't even want to be here.

1:12:13Bill Simmons:Yeah. You know? And that is the damage it does. Giannis... Really never said to the players that he wanted to leave. And he never probably said he wanted to stay. You know? And so. So it's just like everything is uneasy. Yeah. But he did tell them once, guys, I'm here. I'm here. He told me that. You know, several times. Coach, I'm going nowhere. Tell me long before the trade deadline, before I'll start breaking. Coach, I'm going nowhere. I don't want to go anywhere. So what am I trading for if I'm getting him? Because I don't know if you're aware, but. I've heard. The Boston Celtics are one of the possible teams.

1:12:47Bill Simmons:Yeah, I've heard. I've heard. Well, you're getting a rejuvenated, healthy Giannis. Is it a healthy or hopefully healthy? No, he's healthy. And I also think this will be his first time in four years not having your basketball. You know, so Giannis and I had a conversation, I want to say a month before the season ended. And, you know, you remember the whole, should you come back? And I was honest. I said, Giannis, here's my opinion. All right? You shouldn't come back. The season's over. Yeah. You need to sit. I said, but you should look at this as a great opportunity. You can start working out now.

1:13:32You can bring in your guy that you work with, and you can start now for next year. There's no European basketball. You get a whole year to really work on your skill.

1:13:43Bill Simmons:It's like the Rocky III, the Tiger. Yeah. Yeah. And he started doing it. He was doing it. He was, you know, before I left, he was already into his workouts, you know. So I think they're going to get that. I think it'll be good for him probably, you know, just to get all this stuff off of him. He can focus on basketball and playing. But how does it make sense? And I've already said on the record, I kind of hope the Celtics don't trade for him because I think it's risky because this will be his 14th year in the league. the history of big men as they get older. No, he's not a typical big man. I know, but I'm just going by history.

1:14:22Bill Simmons:I don't think it's, it's not like getting cagey in 2008. And also, with any trade, you risk chemistry. You don't, even if you think your chemistry is not great now, you risk making it way better. You also risk making it worse. We've seen this happen in the NBA over and over again. Over and over again. But for him, like, I don't understand why he would want to go to, Miami's the one I can't figure out, unless they have other moves coming that I don't know, because it's like, all right, it's him and Bam, but you just traded everybody else. Where are you going? And you would have traded your closer, because Tyler Hero's a closer.

1:14:59Right. Say what you want about him, but he's a straight-up closer.

1:15:02Bill Simmons:So why would I want to go laterally? I would just rather stay in Milwaukee at that point. My guess is that's where he's trusting their front office, that they have the ability to add more pieces. you know those are the talks we're not in you know after the last two rounds of basketball we watched you need like seven, eight dudes you need a lot of guys it can't just be you and Bam Adebayo it can't be you and Jason Tatum yeah well the Celtics still have a lot of players no I know so there's a much safer thing for him the only thing from the Celtics point of view is you are shortening your window you know because Giannis is older and Brown is younger.

1:15:44Well, Giannis is older with more miles on him, too. But you also maybe, after that window, give yourself a chance to have another window with Jason Tateau. Right. You know what I mean? So it depends on how the front officers look at it. What would you do if you were Boston? Ooh, that's a tough one. You know, I don't ever say it because I don't know. Because you traded for KG.

1:16:04Bill Simmons:You had a five-year window with KG, right? Yeah, yeah. You knew it was like, I have him, I have Pierce, we have Ray. Yeah, we - This is four to five years. Yeah, I remember we thought when we did it, we thought we had a three to four year window with age. And obviously KG got hurt. We didn't know that was going to happen. That's why you can't take anything for granted. I said it the other day. You remember when Oklahoma City, KD, James Harden, Abaka. I went nuts when this happened. They thought their window was limitless. Yeah, Mike Breen. I remember Mike Breen say, well, you know, they lost this series to Miami, but they're going to be back here many times.

1:16:43They never made it back. Like, assuming... 86 rackets. Yeah. You can never... 95 magic. There's no assumptions. There's no... This league, winning is brutally hard. You have to play well. You have to act right. You have to get along. You need luck. You need everything to win a title. And if you don't get everything, you're not going to win.

1:17:08Bill Simmons:So you think you get Giannis, these next two years would be the years you have to cash in on him? Yeah, he's got to be, he's so motivated. You know, it's not like he's not always, but he's just motivated. He wants to win another title. Giannis wants to win. Like, it's interesting. We were just talking about it. He doesn't talk a lot about his play. Yeah. He talks about winning, and Giannis wants to win. I don't know what the right team is for him I don't either to actually win a title you have to have a closer with him which Boston would have that's why the Tatum thing makes more sense because a two man game with Giannis and Tatum good luck the only thing I said on the pod that I guess was a reporting but I know I'm right is that the Celtics made an offer I don't know if Jalen Brown was in it I assume he has to be in it.

1:18:05Bill Simmons:I don't know how you get it. I don't either, but I don't know how you would make an offer without him in it. The problem with our league now is when I first started coaching, you could have all these conversations and the player would never know. Now the player always knows. They know it 10 minutes after the conversation. Because this is what happened with KD in Brooklyn with Jalen Brown. When he heard about that. Once the news happens, there's damage. It's really tough for teams. you should have conversation. You should always try, listen to everything. That doesn't mean you're doing it. And my guess is it wasn't the Celtics calling.

1:18:43It was probably Milwaukee calling Boston. Or they're trying to figure out, they're talking basic, vague parameters.

1:18:51Bill Simmons:And then Milwaukee goes, well, if we got Jalen Brown, could we spin him? Now you talk to another team. Everyone says there's going to be three teams. It has to be. If it does happen, it'll be three teams. It's just, you know, with the collective bargaining. It could be the Clippers. Jalen could become an L.A. I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if the Clippers were involved in this. At all. With the financial ability of Steve Ballmer and that organization. And they have some cap space and they have the fifth pick. They also will have 80 degrees and no humidity. And they have an ocean. People like that.

1:19:29Right. They have players like that. um you know before it was all lakers you know when it was a little like the nets next situation yeah and but now um you know that's one of the things i would say if i have a lot of pride about things which i never do because i don't ever think that in those terms but that's one of them like no you should take pride we wanted to when i took that clipper job i remember said i i said in the press conference we're going to make this a destination we're going to make the clippers a place that people want to come to um now i didn't know at the time with donald sterling as the owner that was a pie in the sky thought when you think about it but even donald paid you know for players but then when bomber came uh organizationally like everything's first class they do everything right uh i mean it's they they do it the right way yeah when i got

1:20:24Bill Simmons:my tickets in 04. I just got it for the other teams, which is why most of the people were there, right? Yeah, still do, unfortunately. And it was really kind of fun to go to the games. They were so dysfunctional year after year after year. And then, you know, it was little baby steps. They draft Blake. He finally gets there. The Chris Paul thing falls out of the sky. And all of a sudden, it starts to look like a real team. You know, Matt, so when I was traded to the Clippers as a player. Yeah, in the 90s. my wife Chris Rivers goes to the first game and she's in a stance crying true story she's sitting next to Gloria Shuler that was Mike Shuler's wife and Gloria is consoling her like what's wrong baby my son is she says my husband is no longer in the NBA and he doesn't know it oh my god And she was like saying, no, baby, that's not true.

1:21:22That's not true. No, it is an NBA team. Yeah, and she kept saying, no, it's not. Now, way back then, if you remember at the clip joint, that thing was a mess. It was a mess.

1:21:32Bill Simmons:I never went there because I had never been in LA until the 2000s. I heard it was, what was it, the sports arena or whatever? The sports arena was a mess. It was a mess. They had comedians doing shows after the game. Yeah. I mean, you could literally check yourself in. It was no one there. It was crazy. it's one of the only good sports documentary ideas left that i don't think balmer will ever let happen like the actual history of the clippers and what the what if i'm bomber i would because the ending is a glorious story and he's he was the white knight i hope it's glorious we don't know how the aspiration scandal is going to come out at worst who knows at worst he's still going to be there true and he's still going to keep doing things well and um so i wouldn't worry about it.

1:22:16Bill Simmons:So you, if you're the Clippers, you would rather have a star than the fifth pick. Yeah, I think if you have Kawhi and Garland and you have a really good front office, I think right now, here's my belief. And a lot of front officers don't believe this half and half. If you legitimately can look yourself in the eye and say, if we do this move, if we have a chance to win, you should go for it. I think so many franchises have waited. No, man. No, this is not to them. If this is the time, you got to cash it in. But you got to have a very honest, like, is it or isn't it? Because a lot of teams think they do it.

1:22:59And what did they do? You know, and I remember last year, Orlando traded for Bain. And they said, now we have a chance. I was like, what? No, you don't. You're better. It's a hell of a trade. It's a good trade, but you're not ready to win yet. That's how I always feel about these trades. If I'm doing it, I better at least have a chance. Yeah, but you have to be honest enough to evaluate the league and what you have for sure.

1:23:29Bill Simmons:Like Celtics, Ray Allen trade, then the KG trade. You basically trade all your assets, but now I'm the best team in the East. Of course I'm going to do that. Yeah, we knew immediately we had a shot. We knew we had to beat Detroit, Cleveland, and the Lakers. Right. You know, in whatever order, we knew that had to happen. Well, the Bridges trade, which I guess I'll take the loss on this one, but the thing I didn't like about it was like, this is it. This is your move. Like, now you have no more moves. But it turned out they had an extra move because the Towns trade became the extra move. I thought after Bridges, I didn't think.

1:24:02Bill Simmons:It was funny. Everyone made the big deal about the Bridges trade. Five picks is a lot. What was anything they could have given him for Giannis? It still didn't constrict him. You know, they went out and got Towns. It didn't stop them. Yeah. And I don't know if there's a better role player for your basketball team than Bridges. Yeah. He's willing to take four shots, 15 shots, six shots. Every game, he shows up. He didn't know. And by the way, he plays basketball. He's out there. He doesn't miss games. Yeah. He plays every night, and he's still one of the better defenders every single night. Yeah.

1:24:36he's a pretty important guy to have on your team. If you were Orlando, would you think about Palo for Giannis? I don't know, man. Does that put you in the title convo? Yeah, I would do it if I'm Orlando, if I thought that put us over the hump.

1:24:52Bill Simmons:I got Giannis, I have Franz, I have Bain, I have Suggs, I have Black. I don't know if you have enough shooting. Maybe in free agency I can get somebody. Yeah, if you can get enough shooting. I don't know what the other moves. I keep saying it. I can go get a Giannis, right? But does that put us over the top? And do we know how to make the rest of the moves to win? Teams do it over every year, Bill. Every year we see it. Teams go and get a star. How about Houston? I have Van Vliet coming back. I have to give up Shingun in the trade, I'm guessing. And maybe Jabari Smith too. And I might have to take a contract back.

1:25:32Bill Simmons:No. I don't know if that works. I don't think it works either. I don't think I'm better than San Antonio or OKC either way. San Antonio is the interesting one, but I don't think they would do it. They probably wouldn't do it. Oklahoma could as well. Not their style. Oklahoma could do any trade they wanted to. Right. I mean, what they have, what Sam has done is absolutely amazing. They have 12 and 17 in this draft. They're mad at draft picks. Yeah. Like, oh my God, what are we going to do with all this stuff? He's in the first situation ever where he's like, I think I'd rather have the eighth pick than the 12th pick.

1:26:05Bill Simmons:Yeah. I'm just going to go trade for it. Hey, Atlanta, here's seven picks to move up more spots. There's no doubt that he's going to do a two for one. He has to. No, he almost has to. Well, there's a center in this draft who I like, the Michigan kid, Mara. Yeah, he's solid. But I haven't watched him enough. Yeah, you've watched him more than me. Well, he's 7 '3". Yeah. He's a good passer. And I'm through the Wimby prism now. Yeah. I need size. Where am I getting size? Yeah, Wimby is everybody in the West. You have to think about it. You have to think about it. You know, it's funny, the Knicks, they didn't just, where I was way wrong.

1:26:44There's no way I thought Towns would or could guard Wimby. And he did an amazing job. And he didn't really have dumb fouls until near the end of the finals. You know what made it interesting, statistically going into the series, you know who's the best defender on Wimby plus minus? Who? OG. I think in the league, he had the highest plus minus guard.

1:27:10Bill Simmons:Did you know he was that good? No, no. I knew he was a great defender. Great, like elite. I never thought he'd be able to shoot and make shots and make plays the way he does. And I never knew he had the IQ. He has an incredibly high basketball instinctive IQ. I never saw that. there's got to there's no way to have a staff for this but like do you do the most positive things that you're capable of doing in the least negative things something about like do you know yourself the best out of anyone like you always have these guys who are like oh I bet I can do it and they can't he never does anything he can't do the whole league has irrational confidence every player has irrational confidence that's what makes them good but if you want to be a successful coach, I always tell young coaches if you can get all 12 year guys to know exactly who they are, now you're never going to do that, but if you can do that you would never lose you would never lose you talk to coaches all the time you're like the fucking Yoda I do talk a lot you talk to all of them, what is their biggest thing that they're worried about now?

1:28:25Bill Simmons:like just with basketball in 2026 No one's ever asked that question to me. That's a great question. Thank you. I think a lot of them are concerned with how many of the outside forces touching their players. There's just too many people. You mean like shooting coach, manager, agent? Even inside. Like you got 10 skill development guys who I love. You have the medical team now is bigger than your coaching staff. there's just so many voices and how do you manage those voices like culture is not just the players if your culture in the training room or which is skill development aren't all locked in on the same thing you're not winning right um you know 15 years ago i had to worry about four coaches and two four you might add two yeah two or three coaches and two trainers it was easy to kind of circle the wagons and they have a great culture.

1:29:26Bill Simmons:Now, you got, you know, a lot of people. How many coaches do we actually need in all seriousness? Because, like, I was watching, they were showing the 76 finals. Yeah. And the Celtics had Tom Heinsohn as the head coach, John Killalea as the assistant, and that was it. Yeah. It was just the two of them. And if both of them got thrown out, like, Dave Cowens had to become the coach. Yeah, we had Dick Harder and Jeff Van Gundy. It sounds great. Yeah. Isn't that easier? And it was so cool because I remember I hurt my knee and I needed a coach to come rebound for me. I didn't have a skill development guy.

1:30:00I do a lot of skill development guys. I think they really help players. Yeah. I would call Jeff Van Gundy. And that's, you know, it's funny. Jeff would come and just, Jeff was the greatest freaking guy because he shut his mouth and he just rebounded for me. He could tell, like, I was just shooting, shooting. And if I miss you, run and get it and throw it back. Wouldn't say a word. just bagged balls for you and shot. And it wasn't until the middle of that workout one night, we were just sitting there talking afterwards, and he said his age. And I said, wait a minute, I'm older than you? What? I didn't even know that.

1:30:38Bill Simmons:Isn't that crazy? So they worry about outside forces. Yeah. How about wear and tear the schedule? Not as much as you think. I think the coaches worry about that far less than front office and medical teams do. And then I think they do worry about, it's harder to get players to buy in now. Because of the two ways? No, because of all the other stuff. You know, everyone has their own brand now. You know, everyone. Right. You know, guys who you're like, why do you have a person? Yeah. Why do you have a publicist? What do you need a publicist for? Yeah, you're our 11th man. Yeah, they all have them.

1:31:22They're hawking, selling something, creating something. I mean, this is real business and money for these guys. So I think that's what they're more concerned by than anything else.

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1:32:11Bill Simmons:Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect, I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the meta pant, that's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20 % off your first purchase at viore.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. I have something that you didn't know about. You know what that is? No. Oh my gosh. This is awesome. Where did you get this from? After the 2007 draft, somebody at ESPN grabbed this for me and sent me an email and said hey I grabbed the envelope do you want it and I was like fuck yeah I'll take it not realizing how about that yeah this won a title for me this won me a title I will say that was the lowest our office has ever been it was the lowest I think I've ever been as a sports fan we did everything to get the best pick I mean I wish I could have some of those games back that, I mean...

1:33:18You're just ISO-ing for Gerald Green in March, mid-March? I would look up in the stands some nights and, you know, let's say Gerald's having a night or somebody and Danny's looking at me like... Right. I'd take him out.

1:33:33Bill Simmons:I remember Rondo was almost like too good to play in those things. Yeah, Rondo, I mean, it was... Yeah, so that one comes up, that's it. That was, yeah, that was a rough night. Because think about it, if we got... if we got one and you took Odin, you're probably doing TV the last 15 years. Danny swears he would take a Durant. Yeah, and I don't know if that's true. I think that's true. But Danny kept things so close, I wouldn't have known until late anyway. Well, the story I always heard was that the Celtics doctor, they had a great doctor back then. Dr. McKeon, the best. That he saw the Odin stuff and he was like...

1:34:08He actually gave a couple flags. The only one that always, you know, dr mckinney and i have become best friends with golf and only thing i still kill him on uh uh brandon roy like we could have had him and he he uh he said guys no he's got he wasn't wrong he was like four years window yeah you know he said it was a really good five years yeah and i always say i would have taken those five years right but he was it was amazing how correct he said that guy is going to play four or five years and then his career is going to go the other way. I mean, it was like to the year. It was unbelievable. Jesus.

1:34:45Yeah.

1:34:45Bill Simmons:So, what's your final Giannis prediction before we go? I think he gets moved. You think he gets moved? Yeah. East Coast or West Coast? I don't, you know, I think teams make a mistake when they worry about that. Get the best deal. Okay. But I'm saying, would you predict the Eastern Conference or Western Conference? I'm going to go West. You're going West? No, I'm sorry. I'm going to go East. You're going East. Yeah. Do you think Giannis will be in the NBA Finals again? Yes, if he goes to the right place. Do you think Thanasis will be in the NBA Finals again? He'll be there. He'll be there for sure.

1:35:17He won't be on the team. What was Thanasis' best pickup basketball strength? Energy. One thing I tell you, the dude, there were days where he actually was useful because he would ramp it up? Yeah, he was playing hard. Thanasis, no one wanted to practice against him. Yeah, I was going to say, was he the guy in the gym that everybody was getting mad at?

1:35:41Bill Simmons:Oh, yeah. Because he was trying to hurt? Yeah, you know what was that for me? It was Leon Wood, the ref. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I made the all-star team that year, and I swear to gosh, it's because of Leon Wood. I hated him. Back then, you're playing 42 minutes, and back then, you practiced every day. Right. And you scrimmaged a lot. And, you know, I just played 42 minutes during DJ, and the next day, we're practicing, and Leon Wood is picking me a full court. you know there were days I wanted to just punch him but that's probably why it hurts when you hit a 5 wood now yeah no doubt hurts when I bend down you played probably 80 games the dude Leon would how do you the last game that Leon did I say Leon you move just like me we did too much who'd you think by the way I had before we go I had you just coached a team questions random ones who did you think the best ref in the league was right now right now the best ref this season that you saw i thought scott foster scott foster wow yeah yeah i thought i think he has really become a uh it's you know what i've learned it's not just his refereeing where scott has improved it's just people skills and uh you know there's a couple other ones that are that i really like any young ones uh josh Josh Tibbin, I think, has a good demeanor overall.

1:37:06Takes it very seriously. I love, I love, I learned a little bit during COVID. I got a chance to golf with some of the refs.

1:37:15Bill Simmons:Oh, interesting. And it's interesting. I love, I have found this thing. Some of these guys care so much. They want to be like really good at their jobs. And those are the guys I like. Then there's another group of guys that are like, why are you so upset it's just a game you know what I mean so give me that first group because it hurts them like they know when they make a mistake and it hurts them just like you those are the refs you want Scott Foster yeah I think he's really he's a solid NBA ref what coach impressed you the most that you went against that's a great boy good questions I forgot to ask you these the last time you were on.

1:38:01Bill Simmons:Yeah. Was there one where you're like, man, that guy's got fucking everything going here? Well, I mean, it's tough. Oklahoma was so good. Yeah. But I still think he's really good. Yeah. I think he's really marked. Like, he does. He makes the right plays. He subs the right guys in. Though, I thought in the last series with guys injured, you know, it was tougher for him. Yeah. I was impressed with Mike Brown this year. You know, I've played against him, coached against him, and two weeks, and I beat him twice when he had LeBron. Yeah. And I think his growth has, he's a different coach from when he was back then.

1:38:48There's no, like, he's different. I love, and I'm a couple, we got to come up with a list. I loved, there are certain coaches, you better be ready. Right. And then there's other coaches I felt like, ah. Yeah, this is a bit easier than that. I know what they're doing. There's certain coaches that I felt, because I thought one of the things I did well throughout my career was ATLs. We call it timeout, we were scoring. I had a very, very, very prominent coach that told me he lost, he admitted this, he lost the game to me because they had a timeout. we didn't and he didn't use it because he didn't want me to be able to drop a play and he and he said it was so stupid that he didn't yeah um and there's coaches that you feel the same about like yeah i i call it timeout they're gonna get to drop a play too and he's killing us right now right out of timeouts so there's you know that goes both ways with coaches Stevens was the best I ever saw at that.

1:39:52Brad was great out of timeouts. Very good. I don't know.

1:39:56Bill Simmons:He must have had some database of all these crazy plays that he would have. Yeah, you would be amazed at the coaches. Ty Lue has every ATO that I've ever drawn up. Really? Yeah, the entire time he was my assistant. Just like in a Google Doc or something? No, he would draw it up and keep it. He had a book. He would draw them all up and he would keep them. and they beat us in Philly one game with one of my plays and it incensed me. It just pissed me off so bad. They literally ran a play that we... It's a violation. Yeah, and it was flawless and we talked about it afterwards. He was laughing. I said, like, and Tibbs did that a lot.

1:40:43You know, we run, you know, because we all steal from each other. Nobody's a genius in this. We all think we are. No one's, you, I could watch a game. I watch a game now. Oh, wow. That's good. I could tweet this. You know, that's how coaches watch games. It's pretty cool.

1:40:58Bill Simmons:Yeah, I remember game one, we were texting and you were like, I don't like, I don't like this Wemby on Towns. Yeah. I don't like this. He's going to, he'll get away from this as this goes along. I kept telling you, I was like, I don't like this matchup. Yeah. Well, guess what? He stopped doing it by game three. Give me two young players who aren't superstars or known stars yet that you think are going to get there. Well, he's known, but Edgecombe has a chance to be really good because he has the makeup and I think having Maxie around him. So you're buying stock on the Maxie-Edgecombe combo. Maybe too small.

1:41:34What did you like about Edgecombe? His edge. He's going to be what Edgecombe is going to be. I don't know how good he'll be offensively. You know he played on Austin's AU team. I don't know how good he'll be offensively. He's ahead of where I thought he was already. But he's going to be an elite defensive player in the NBA. Elite. That's coming. And you can see that. I'm trying to canvas the league with my imagination right now. I would have thrown Dylan Harper in there before the finals. Well, Dylan Harper's already known. Yeah. Yeah, like that's the obvious choice for all of us is Dylan Harper.

1:42:10I'm just thinking like... But Castle is the other guy that we don't talk about enough. You know, Castle is being a consistent shooter away from being a consistent all-star player every year. How about Cedric Howard? I don't know yet. You like him. I do. Yeah, you like him. I'm not sure yet. I do. I'm not sure about the intangibles, you know. Yeah, it's tough because he was on a shit team. Yeah. It's so hard to judge some of these guys. and it's also hard to judge a guy on a good team that doesn't play a lot or play his role. You know, you don't get to see it.

1:42:45Bill Simmons:My problem is I don't go to as many games as I used to and I always pick up, I'm sure you're the same way, you pick up so much more in person. Oh, you do. Like the Quippers backup center, who ended up getting hurt, Niederhauser, whatever his name is, I love that guy. He's playing well early. That guy's a guy, he will be like in a playoff rotation. So I got a question for you, other than Boston and the Knicks. who will be the other two teams in the East? Next year?

1:43:15Bill Simmons:I'm interested to see what Charlotte does with 14 and 18. And maybe next year is not their year. Maybe they'll be like, we'll draft two more guys. This is a slow build. But I also think they could zag the other way and just go get somebody really good and make a run in it with the shooting they had. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they moved someone and then did the trade as well. honestly that was like an interesting Giannis team to me it's a different timeline but yeah um but Charlotte was a wild card for me though Charles was one of those young coaches that I was that's the other thing they're really well coached that I was extremely impressed with we beat them three out of four times um and we caught them early and I remember sitting with John when a horse in the office he said man that team's coming I said oh they're here right I said I don't know if they know it, but they're here.

1:44:04Bill Simmons:So I would go Boston. What do we think Cleveland's going to look like? I don't know. Who knows? You know, they're going to be in it. You know, Cleveland may have to make some decisions. Well, they can't have the$120 million tax team again. Well, can they win with both big guys? To me, it's not the money. They can move the money. They'll trade Allen. That's the question for them. Well, one of the things I wonder, like, Do they trade Allen in a sign-and-trade with LeBron for the LeBron Cleveland farewell tour? And does he want to do that? That whole thing is going to be a mess. I mean, whatever LeBron does.

1:44:37And listen, he deserves it. But where he goes and what he does, it feels like things are fractured a little bit in L.A. with him. But I don't know if that's actually true. But it feels that way.

1:44:49Bill Simmons:Everything feels fractured until they figure out a monetary figure to make it unfractured. The makeup is unbelievable in R &D. Well, I told you, I think he's going to Golden State. I really do. I think that's going to happen. I don't believe that, but you've said that. I really think it's going to happen. All right, so Boston, New York. Cleveland kind of lingering. I don't know about Orlando. Well, the two teams to me that people are sleeping on is what Atlanta does. Right. And then what Indiana does. Getting to it was big for them. Yeah, I worry about. They would rather have that fifth pick. or whatever.

1:45:27But getting Zoop was... They're going to be good next year. I just... What's Halberd going to look like

1:45:34Bill Simmons:and what's his confidence like? Yeah. He's probably playing now. I would assume. Yeah. Yeah, Indiana's a wild card. And Indiana's the one team that's like, we could beat the Knicks. And then the biggest wild card is Detroit, who we didn't mention. What are they going to do with the cat? Would they have all their picks? I'm glad I don't have their decision. To me, they have a franchise Defining decision to make. And I'm not sure which way you go. And that's what Duren. What do you think is the decision? Duren. Oh. I think that we know how that's going to play out, right? Well, they're going to pay him.

1:46:07Bill Simmons:But are they going to pay him the max? If they pay him the max, I just wouldn't do that. Yeah, I mean. You can't pay a center the max that's not Wembenyamo, basically. Yeah, I mean, that's a brutal decision. Because if you don't, you know, if I was another team with money, you wouldn't mess the business up. you sign him to an offer sheet. That should be Brooklyn, right? Yeah, sign him to an offer sheet. Isn't Brooklyn the only one with a... Yeah, it's only two teams, I thought. Yeah. But you get a two-for-one. If they sign him back, they hurt their team. If they don't sign him, they hurt their team.

1:46:39Well, shit.

1:46:39Bill Simmons:I mean, this is, no matter how much the NBA changes, this has happened every decade. Remember McIlvey in Seattle? And somebody offer sheeted him or whatever, and then he made more money than Sean Kemp? I remember John Konkak. John Contrack right that's another one John Contrack he was on your team you're right yeah who was the maddest at that Kevin Willis Dominique he was making more than Dominique yeah he made more than everybody oh no it's funny but Dominique had the nightclub he was fine yeah he had 21s in the nightclub I remember Stan Kasten who was you know Dodger lower now yeah but I remember Stan Kasten calling me I said hey I need to sit with you and Dominique we got this situation And I remember we sit and talked about the, I could care less.

1:47:26Right. I didn't care less. I was happy for John Konkak. I'm like, what are you going to turn it down? But the Pistons did it to screw us. And they got, and they did. It bothered our team. Absolutely. That GM was great.

1:47:38Bill Simmons:McCloskey. Oh, he was great. He was cutthroat. Yeah. He was mad because Stan Kasson put an office sheet on James Edwards. And he told Isaiah and him, the next free agent that the Hawks have, we're going to bother them. And that's why he did it. Red Arbeck did that with the Knicks. because they were sniffing around McHale when McHale was restricted. So he signed, it was like Sly Williams and Marvin. I forget who the three guys were, and he made them match all that stuff. Roy Sparrow. You know, greatest coach, one of them. Red's the greatest GM ever, front office, ever. It feels like he is. Oh, it's, if you go by the, just how they built the one team.

1:48:16Yeah. You know, they got Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish for Joe Barry Cara. They draft Danny Ainge, knowing he's going to play baseball. Drafted Bird. And drafted Bird the year before. They get DJ for Rick Robey, I think. By the way, he traded for Bill Russell. Yeah. I mean, oh, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. Okay, then it's over. Yeah. The debate is over then. Yeah. He's the greatest. He's like, I like that Bill Russell guy. But you should do a show on who follows after that. So I think Presby's in the running.

1:48:46Bill Simmons:He is now, for sure. Jerry West. Because he's nailed the draft picks, and he's made some really good trades. And honestly, like that, and you were there for the Clippers, and they're like, we need to do this. And he's like, I have to have SGA, and I have to have all these picks, or I'm not doing it. Well, we can't do that. Okay, no trade. And he kind of waited out Ballmer. This is what Sam Presti learned this time around, that he didn't know the first time when he had all the players. Getting Shea is great. Getting Williams is great. You know what changed their team? He went out and got Caruso and Hartenstein.

1:49:19Those are the moves you have to learn how to make when you're a front office guy. And Sam didn't know how to make that move early on, and now he understands the value of that.

1:49:28Bill Simmons:Well, that's another team to watch right now because they got Dort in a team option. They have Hartenstein on a team option. They're going to, I don't think they'll ever play second apron. They're really a strange team because they have so many picks, so many players. They are looking at this guy and say, well, we can play this guy. you know they have that Thomas Sorber guy they drafted nobody's ever even seen what he looks like they have the riches of all yeah so they could do that's a team that Atlanta could potentially trade with they could do whatever they want I'm with you in Atlanta but Atlanta has the same issue that you talked about earlier about who's scoring for me in the last four minutes of the game that's it it was CJ in those two Knicks games and then he's 34 years old yeah he's 34 and that's how I looked at that series.

1:50:15I was like, if you've cut down, see that, who's their scorer? Like these, I'm telling you, man, if you want to look at a championship team, start with the closers. Well, how about the Bucs that your Giannis won? It was mostly Middleton. It was Middleton. Closing. You know, the biggest change that Buck made was Giannis had the ball a lot. They took the ball out of Giannis' hands. They put it in Drew's hands and Chris Middleton's hands and Giannis became the roller. And that two-man combination was unguardable. unguardable. And then they put Holiday on Chris Paul after game three or whatever, game two.

1:50:51That changed the whole series.

1:50:52Bill Simmons:By the way, Drew Holiday, did you know that that could have been the other person they traded Darius Garland for? Did you read that? That was a report. Yeah, wow. It was their choose Ben Harden and Drew Holiday. Do they beat the Knicks or come close with Drew Holiday? Yeah. It's pretty interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. He's one of the great teammates and team players in the last 10 years. He's that valuable to a team. I would go last 20. Yeah, he's that valuable to your team. It's just everything right. De 'Aaron Fox going for the layup. I never got your point guard take on this. We didn't talk about this in a pod.

1:51:31Yeah, well, I want you to go back and look at film. Doc Rivers steals the ball from Hakeem Olajuwon in game one of the Western Conference Finals. I grabbed the ball and I threw it ahead. You're in San Antonio? On San Antonio. Grabbed the ball, threw it ahead to Sean Elliott. Sean promised to just dribble the clock out, right? He attacks the basket, gets fouled. I think he makes one. And Robert Ory, who was 0-4, makes a three at the buzzer. So, yeah, you dribble that darn clock out. Now, he wouldn't have dribbled the clock out. And he would have, he probably...

1:52:08Bill Simmons:Maybe you chopped three more seconds off before you get fouled. At least three. But then now the foul to give timing comes in. There were so many things that went wrong there. I mean, why would you foul? That was Fox 2 at half court. That kind of got lost in the whole thing. Yeah, no one talked about that. And it looked like Alvarado almost went back court. Yeah, almost. And I think if he had waited another second, he was going that way. Yeah. But besides that, Alvarado wasn't looking to shoot. He was looking to get the ball to Brunson. As fast as possible. Yeah. They could have wasted four seconds more.

1:52:41It would have been a two-second timeout. They would have had two seconds and a timeout. What did you feel about Mitch not calling timeout

1:52:51Bill Simmons:right before Wemby threw the ball away? That's the only thing I didn't like. Now, if I was... Because it's fast, right? He gets a rebound. He's right in front of him. Yeah, but you knew it was coming. You know, you would have been prepared. Let's say I was flipped. If I was the Knicks, I wouldn't call a timeout because they're a veteran team. Right, they know what to do. They know what to do. And I wouldn't want San Antonio to set their defense up. The only reason I would have called it to him, and I said it right away, is because they're so young. That's it. And, you know, Wimby gets a lot of heat from that.

1:53:24But I'm telling you, if you watch the Spurs play, they are the best advanced pass team in the NBA. They do it every time they grab it and they throw it. And you can see, was it Cassels? His eyes were there, and then he turned the wrong way.

1:53:39Bill Simmons:Would you see the other angle? Yeah. He had both point guards to his right. Yeah. And he was looking up this way, but he had Fox right there with his hand up. They always throw it ahead. That's what they do. And, you know, but that one, yeah, I'm calling the time out. And then. In five years, they wouldn't. How did you feel about Wemby being 30 feet from the basket on the OG tip play? I didn't like that. I said that yesterday. You know, you remember them coming out and Wemby was. They seemed they were disheveled. Yeah. I don't know what happened. There was a good camera behind the basket. Somebody came in that they weren't anticipating.

1:54:14I think somebody in the Knicks came in that they didn't account for. And the other thing I think is they were surprised OG was taking the ball out. Something happened there that I don't know. Only thing that I do know is I don't think they wanted Wimby being the guy to trap Brunson. Wouldn't you want Wimby in the paint just to challenge any draft? I think you put Wimby on Towns. and you know there's not going to be a drive. There's going to be a shot and you want your biggest guy. Six seconds left? You want your biggest guy under the rim. And he would have been if he had been on Towns. You know, he would have been there.

1:54:51I think. That was a tough one. But I think. It was still one of the eight greatest plays in the history of the league. He was on Towns. Yeah. When he came out. You could see him. He was there. And then the guards start pointing. I would love to know what actually happened because something on that floor, one of those guards said, no, you go here. I mean, something messed them up, and I don't know what it was. Mitch Johnson, this summer,

1:55:19Bill Simmons:we'll be thinking about why did the ball have to bounce front of the rim straight toward OG? Like, what are the odds? Perfect bounce. It was a brick. It's just like... First of all, not only the perfect bounce, you know how hard it is to tap that in? The ball didn't have to go in. I think that was like a one in 100 ,000 play. It was, but it's also one in 100 ,000 being alert. Yeah. Like a lot of guys would have been standing there. He saw it and went for it. And then there's an angle of Vassell comes from the side to try to hit the ball. Yeah. Harper was the guy that I thought could have got there a step earlier.

1:55:51If Harper gets there a step earlier, he's in front of OG. So if the Spurs win that game, what happens? I think the Knicks win the series. I think the Knicks win the series anyway. Yeah. Anyway. I agree. I thought... Because they could go in San

1:56:04Bill Simmons:Antonio and win it. It didn't matter. Yeah. I think I think it's clearly they had five exact same games. I think we would have had two more of those games. And that's what I want. I just wanted more basketball. All I have now is a U.S. Open this week in golf. Who's your pick? That's a good guy. I'm going with Xander Schauffele. That was one of my two. I have him or Fleetwood. Yeah, Fleetwood. I don't know the length, but I'm going with him. And then I think Scottie's going to have a good week this week. Is it true you're playing in a celebrity tournament? Yeah. going to play. Yeah. You know, the bar has been lower.

1:56:40Can you play with Larry? The bar has been, Larry is supposed to play with me. I've told NBC that Larry wants to play, right? Larry calls me and says he wants to play. Now, you're getting to know Larry, but I've known Larry

1:56:51Bill Simmons:for 35, whatever years. You guys are my favorite buddy cop comedy. Yeah. There's 100 % chance if Larry commits, he's going to back out. Yeah. All Larry needs is the night before we're leaving to hit a shot and it goes wrong and he's out. That's it? There's no way Larry's going. I still can't believe he went to game four. After the game three loss, I thought he was 100 % chance he's flying back. Trust me, there was conversation about it. Also, he told me if he could have left at halftime of game three. He would have just left. He was thinking about it. But it did give us one of the single funniest videos in the history of the NBA, the Josh Hart layup.

1:57:30And then he gave me the greatest text in game three. I'm sitting there watching and I get a text and he says, hey, can you tell your buddy Mitch, he's standing in my way, can you ask him to please move? He's blocking his view? Larry said the whole game, he's trying to look around, he said, and I can deal with Mitch, but then they had this other guy. This other assistant. Yeah, he kept jumping up and I was like, met you too. It's a curb episode. It's a curb episode, it's funny. Alright, Doc Rivers. Good seeing you, I love your studio. Thanks for coming over. This was a blast. Hey, Bill has an amazing house, people.

1:58:06Oof. It's amazing. Thanks, Doc. Yeah, it's nice.

1:58:10Bill Simmons:All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Doc Rivers. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, rewatchables, Hand That Rocks the Cradle. That one is already up. Domestic Disturbance next week. Please watch this. John Travolta, Vince Vaughn, Trying to Be a Bad Guy. Really special movie. I think I'm going to have one more podcast before the end of the week. So we'll try to have something hopefully Thursday or Thursday night heading into the second USA World Cup soccer game. I can't wait. See you later in the week.

1:59:01I'm a proof of the night.

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