A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

25:02And he didn't, there's no push off on this play at all. Like he creates all of that space on his own, no illegal contact, cans it because he's Jalen Brunson, one of the most clutch players that we have in the league right now. I love watching that guy play. I love watching that guy hoop. And when he's doing it in this way, like he's, he's such an undeniable charismatic basketball force. And yet heading into that next round, the Celtics are minus 700 favorites. Well, sure. Now, if I told you before the year, the Celtics and Knicks are going to play in round two and the Celtics are going to be 701 favorites, I think we would have thought somebody was hurt on the Knicks.

25:39Yeah. We would have assumed Towns, Brunson, or Inanobi, one of those three, or maybe even Bridges. That was not a healthy five, but it is a healthy five. I mean, I know Brunson's flipping around. He had 40 tonight. Or the other assumption would be that the cat trade had gone really poorly for some reason, which it hasn't. It's gone mostly quite well. Not so well in this game. I thought this was a game in which it was very much Josh Hart and OG and McHale completely delivered in all of their kind of peripheral capacities, in addition to Jalen Brunson just going balls out as far as like shot creation goes.

26:14And then Kat is doing a thing we've seen him do before. We're sort of floating around and he's weirdly passive and he's not involved in the offense. And then when the ball finally comes his way, he's shooting shots five feet behind the three-point line it's and then he fouls out and and misses a crucial free throw is just like a not a great display of carl anthony towns as a basketball experience especially going into a series against the celtics where he has to be one of the knicks most important players to actually leverage that matchup and i i really like cat i find myself as a cat defender in a lot of debates and conversations i don't have a lot of faith in his ability to successfully bully and score on and be everything defensively that he needs to be against the Celtics.

26:55It's just not, it's not, that, that matchup does not position him for any kind of success. Yeah. It's a weird one with all the Knicks fans I know, and I'm sure, you know, a lot of them too. Last year, they were just so delighted by that gritty underdog team that they had, and they just really responded to those guys. And this year, it's a lot of complaining. A lot of complaining about Tibbs. A lot of wondering. But then also a real love for Brunson. Yeah. And the fact that at least they got to round two with those five guys healthy, which I think was the number one goal. A team that was built to try to beat Boston, even though Boston spanked them all season.

27:34I do not have any Knicks fans in my life who are like, watch out for us. The vibes are real weird right now. Yeah, don't you think? I mean, they, again, barely survived this series. The Pistons had several chances to potentially win it, several chances to, you know, lead and protect the lead. Malik Beasley almost had a look to tie this game at the very end, but kind of like Gary Trent Jr. the ball away at the final second. Yeah. Like, it was right. Is that a verb now? Gary Trent Jr. After that implosion the other day against the Pacers, unfortunately, it's wrong place, wrong time, but such is life.

28:06But I would say as far as the reason that that Celtics optimism and Knicks pessimism exists, in addition to just, you know, not disputing the heart of a champion and kind of the general funkiness that's been going on with New York all year. You could see in this series, it's so clear that the Knicks just do not trust basically anything other than a Jalen Brunson ISO. Like they don't run them consistently enough, maybe a pick and roll if you're lucky, but so much of their offense is geared around Jalen having to create every inch of space against defenders. And now... It's a weird one to me though.

28:40I don't really understand that as a strategy. I get it from the sense that Jalen Brunson's an unbelievable ISO scorer. I don't get it in the sense that you just traded for Carl Anthony Towns in the offseason. You just traded for Mikael Bridges in the offseason. And some of those guys are good at kind of creating movement within stale sets. But it really doesn't take much of a nudge from the defense to push the Knicks into just ISO, ISO, ISO, ISO repeatedly in a way that is frankly self-destructive. Well, you know who eats that up for breakfast, lunch, and dinner is the Celtics. If you're just going to do the same thing over and over again.

29:13They couldn't be more delighted. I mean, Brunson had 33 shots tonight and eight free throws. 33 shots for a non-overtime game is kind of bonkers. And I just don't feel like they've... I felt that the whole year, I've never felt like they've... It feels like somebody's always losing when somebody else is winning on this team. Yeah. You know? It's almost like a zero-sum game. Brunson gets 33 shots, so that means Towns has to have a shit game, basically. And again, I need to watch the second half and study what was going on. But 33 shots is fucking... That's a crazy number. I know he made 15 of them, but that's not sustainable against Celtics.

29:52Celtics have so many guys to throw at him. They're going to be sending two guys at him. They're going to be putting taller guys on him. This is one of the Tatum superpowers. He's actually really good at guarding. guy. I wouldn't be surprised if they threw Tatum at him. You should. I mean, based on Asar Thompson's success in this game, to the extent that there is a Jalen Brunson blueprint, and this guy just went for 40, like it's not a wildly successful blueprint. I thought Asar Thompson did a great job with the minutes that he was given and the assignment he was given. And that's kind of the Jalen Brunson story is you try to put as much length as you can get away with.

30:25It's just usually wings and bigs have a much harder time hanging with Brunson's footwork. Not so for the Celtics. They have enough bigger, rangier defenders. And even the guys who are quote-unquote small, if Drew Holiday is healthy enough to play consistently in that series, that's a tough matchup. Derek White's a tough matchup. They're all tough matchups. Well, the other thing is, though, Tatum's been just playing so great. And the Knicks built this team together, partly to go toe-to-toe with Tatum and Brown. Brown hasn't been as great, and I don't think he's 100 % healthy. But Tatum is at the complete command of his powers at this point.

30:59And, you know, there's going to be this Ananobi versus Tatum piece, and then Bridges will be the second guy. I'm sure they're going to stagger him so that, you know, there's going to be stretches. Maybe he'll come out earlier in the first quarter and then come back where he's trying to go against some Knicks bench guys. What is your level of satisfaction with the Tatum rise? As I would say the preeminent author of the does Tatum have another gear ongoing conversation. Yeah, I feel vindicated and delighted. I just think he's been awesome and there was somebody wrote a piece about Angry Tatum in that Orlando series and I totally agree he had developed this little sneer that he has now it's like where'd that come from you're like the nicest guy now you have like a playoff sneer but the sneer is worth like three percentage points in terms of field goal percentage easily at least a couple free throw attempts it's worth its weight in gold I love his bully stuff that he does which is going to be harder to do against this Knicks team but they're going to be I just think they're going to hunt Brunson this is what the smarter teams who have a lot of options they're just going to be like where is he let's try to wear him down on this end they're probably not going to defend him full court which I think if like Indiana played them I think Indiana would try to wear him down that way and just basically make him work to dribble the ball up Detroit did some of that too but you'll get some of that with OG just like denying at various I'm sorry I think in terms of more Tatum I think there's just so many ways that on both sides they can deny the Stars and force you to go to your second option.

32:31And for the Celtics, there's many avenues from that point. For the Knicks, you deny Jalen Brunson, you chase him full court, even if that's what they decide to do. There should theoretically be many entry points for this offense. Realistically, and in terms of the way these games play out, they just kind of wait for Jalen Brunson to get open, and sometimes he doesn't. Yeah, if the Celtics are healthy, that's not going to work. The question would... The fear for the Celtic fans is how healthy are we? What's going on with Drew Holiday? Are they playing it super safe? Or is this a guy who's in his mid-30s now who has a hamstring issue and this is going to bug him the whole time?

33:06How bad is Jalen's knee? When's the next Porzingis injury? Getting the rest and not having to play a game six against Orlando I think was pretty good. If I'm a Knicks fan, I'm really concerned that it was that much of a slugfest, knockdown, dragout, back and forth series with Detroit. You know, and I know that we talked about them a bunch on your pod, on my pod. Like, we all respected Detroit. The advanced metrics are very favorable. They turned into be a good regular season team. But they're so limited in a series like that. Like, the guys that they had versus the guys the Knicks had, I just don't feel like the series should have been this nail-biter for six games.

33:48I don't think they should have been able to go in there and win a game five at MSG. I don't think this game tonight should have come down to Brunson having to be heroic. The Knicks should just be better than that team. And I think some of it is coach-related, which we've talked about on all of our Ringer pods. I just don't think Tibbs has a feel for this team. This doesn't feel like a Thibodeau team, in my opinion. I think all of that's true about the Knicks. I just don't want to diminish the fact that the Pistons grabbed those games, grabbed those wins and nearly grabbed this one. And I think that that's a team that has a lot to be proud of in terms of the way they acclimated themselves to this series, to this dynamic.

34:25You're right. They don't have all of the options that the Knicks do. They don't even have, I would say, you know, the highest end experienced playoff shot creation yet. I thought Cade was really, really solid in the series overall. But you can see a bit of a distance between him and Jalen Brunson, right? You can see where Cade still has to go as a young creator. And that's really exciting. And you can see, you know, what a star Thompson can be. You can see overall for a team that was missing two crucial rotation players, right? Isaiah Stewart barely played in this series. Jaden Ivey did not play in this series.

34:54Like, that's a huge deal. And I think saps the Pistons ultimately of their hopes of being more dynamic. And then you get into a position where it's like when push comes to shove, like, I don't know, Tim Hardaway Jr., like Malik Beasley, these guys are your kind of security blankets. Tim Hardaway didn't play in the finals last year. He was on a team that made the finals and did not play. And for good and fair reason, and yet in this game, it's like he's essential personnel because of who the Pistons have on their roster. And so that's stuff that will gradually improve over time as they sort of like start to replace some of the archetypes of these supporting players.

35:29And maybe replace them with, you know, Jaden Ivey coming back and having another great season. You know, like there's young talent, Ron Holland, who kind of got, I would say, kind of filtered out of the rotation by the end. Maybe he starts to pop in a different way. These are all different in terms of what they're bringing to the table. But I like where the Pistons are headed. Kind of like a stealth Durant team. I wouldn't say he was the favorite, but it's a really interesting one if you're going to try to figure out a Durant destination and that the price gets a little lower, but you just kind of put him in the Tobias Harris spot.

35:57I mean, they're not close to winning a title, but... You think Tobias Harris for Kevin Durant's a pretty solid upgrade? Well, I'm thinking about how many picks would have to be in that. But if they're trying to get picks, if I were the Pistons, I would probably try to do what some of these other teams in that position have done in years past is, hey, it was great. We got our playoff taste. Let's try not to get crazy. Let's do this again. And then maybe two years from now, you know, they're probably hoping. The story's already starting to come out about how the Celtics, this is kind of a last run with the roster they have and expect some trades.

36:33You know, I'm not surprised that came out. I'm not surprised people did the math and was like, yeah, this is probably not sustainable. The timing of it was a little weird. I was wondering why it became a story when it's been a story all year for anybody who follows the Celtics in any capacity. The roster is going to cost like$250 million extra. Yeah, it's prohibitive. If they don't trade some salary, I don't know who it's going to be. So there's a little bit of this last dance run just with this specific group. And it might just be one guy. But Bob Ryan's coming on this pod later, and we were talking about like just what a popular Celtics team this is with the fans, like just a bunch of like dudes.

37:17There's no like the one guy like, oh man, that guy drives me crazy. It doesn't really exist. So one last thing with Celtics Knicks. Yeah. You would think there would be all these great storied battles over the years and there just hasn't been. You know, I was too young to remember when they played in the 70s. I do remember the 84 series which was Bernard versus Larry which was just awesome Bernard basically beat this awesome Celtics team by himself for three games they beat them in 1990 I think they played maybe in 2013 yeah I want to say didn't we get a mellow it was the tail end of the KG Pierce era yeah but for two teams that have been in the NBA since it began it's fucking nuts that they have no play because they're like, oh, what a rivalry.

38:07It's like, this really isn't a rivalry. But this is probably the closest the two teams have been from a talent standpoint, I would say. Maybe 84. I thought the Celtics were way more talented, but Bernard was maybe the second best player in the league that year. So it'll be fun to see it. I think it's going to be a really hard ticket to get in New York. Sure. There'll be some energy behind it. And from an ESPN standpoint, they lost the Lakers. But they get Nick Celtics. We just moved right to the Knicks, right? We move right to Nick's content. What happens? I don't know what they do. You don't think Clippers and Nuggets are moving the needle in that way?

38:41I don't. Well, they'll probably, they'll get five more days of LeBron. Yeah. I'm fully expecting from somebody from the Lakers, LeBron is open to resigning, but wants to make sure Luka is committed to being shaped next year. I'm waiting for that story. I'm on pins and needles. Just sneak that one out. Yeah. I am waiting for the Austin Reeves. if they have to trade Austin Reeves to get a big guy. You know, you saw what happened with Rudy Gobert. We got to do it. I'm waiting for that one. Maybe it'll be trading for Rudy Gobert. Who knows? You just laid out like four different news cycles. I think we're good through June, to be honest with you.

39:17We're good at least through round two with all the cycles. I forgot that will LeBron retire or not? We're going to get that one. He might. He might not. Now he's thinking about it. Now he might. It'll just be in the news over and over again. or we'll get the, will LeBron accept a minimum salary to go play for a contender? That'll be two days. So yeah, ESPN will be fine for probably another two weeks because what they're not going to do is talk about, can OKC go 16-0 in the playoffs? Sure. Well, and meanwhile, here on The Ringer, here's another segment about the Boston Celtics. You know, we all have counterpoints.

39:51It's a great point. But out of all these four series, what's the best one? Like, we don't know who's coming out of OKC Denver. It's probably Gold State Minnesota, right? If that becomes the series, just from a star power intrigue standpoint. I mean, that would be a juicy one. Honestly, this is maybe an unpopular pick, but I'm actually really excited about Cavs Pacers. I think that's going to be a really fun, really competitive series. Are you with me on don't count the Pacers out for a massive upset corner or no? I'm basically always on don't count the Pacers out corner. So yeah, I think that has to be taken into account.

40:31But like there has not been a bigger buzzsaw in these playoffs than the Cavs in the first round. So I'm eager to see what they get against better competition. Of course, I'm eager to see what OKC's got when they have to play someone who's actually going to put up some resistance. So honestly, it's been a pretty fun, if a little bit turbulent of a first round. Second round is going to have some real juice to it though. Indiana's plus 410. in that series. And, uh, for the series spread. Yeah. Cleveland, Cleveland, a win in a sweep one, uh, four, one or four, two, that's minus one 88. I think the Pacers are going to hang in this series.

41:12I've been saying it for weeks. I, I, I really think they have, I think they're really hard to play and I think they really know who they are and they have an identity and, uh, and they're going to be dangerous. I know you already got your Minnesota Lakers thoughts out. Can I just tell you how weird it was to go to that game last night? To experience Rudy Gobert in person? Who was awesome. Certainly the best game he's ever had. But just to watch the Lakers not try to solve the problem? This is like, if we lose this game, we go home. Yeah. And they're just getting annihilated on the boards. And they were just like, even the guys on the court, like they weren't playing a center, but it's, you know, Luca, it seemed like Luca was 100 % healthy, but Rui and LeBron, it was basically, if they weren't getting rebounds, guess what?

42:00Nobody else is getting a rebound and they're 15 feet from the basket. It was one of the weirdest games I've ever been to. I've never seen a team in a must-win situation just let the same thing happen over and over and over again. Well, there was the refusal on J.J. Redick's part to put, say, Jackson Hayes, whatever big you would prefer on their roster back in the game. Put the corpse of Alex Lennon there. At least he's taking up space. I'm not going to advocate for putting any of those guys in in particular. I'm just saying he refused to do it. And yeah, the fact that the players on the court, specifically the forwards, were just not putting a body on anybody, including Rudy Gobert, but really anybody at all, just standing there as rebounds came down.

42:40Both of those things can't be true. One of the sides has to budge. Either you put in bigger players or the kind of bigger wings you have have to rebound. But this is the trouble with playing that style. When I went to game two, they were scrambling and gang rebounding and really being wary of it in this game. I thought when Maxi Kleber came in, I was with my friend Chen. First of all, I honestly didn't know he was on the team. I didn't know he was dressed for games. And he came in and I was like, is that Maxi Kleber? He just came off the medical table, cleared to play, and they're like, yeah, okay, here you go.

43:16Here's five minutes. See if you can knock down a shot. Minnesota was like, that's great. knock yourself out over there. We were just like, wow. And he was out there in the second half of the game. Very, very strange. Obviously going back to that Mark Williams trade not going through, but I don't know where he makes a difference. I just feel like that's a bad matchup for them all the way around. Mark Williams thought he made a difference. I don't know if you saw him getting in on the action, which I appreciate, but I don't think he's changing that game. I don't think anybody on their roster, if they had subbed in Alex Lenn or subbed in Jackson A's, I don't think it's materially changing the fact that Rudy Gobert was putting just about everybody who would get close to him in the rim.

43:56And nobody would really get close to him by maybe the third quarter at best. Well, it was also like such a massive rollover because Minnesota should have won that game by 35 points. They couldn't make a three. Yeah. All the threes were wide open. All of them. And guys weren't like scrambling. They weren't like, you know, it was just it was such a weird one. And then the way JJ acted in that 48-hour stretch, it's like, wow, that feels like he's unraveling. I thought the whole thing, now you go into this offseason, it's like LeBron's going to be now officially in his 40s. Yeah. Really, the only move is Reeves.

44:33That was weird. But for Minnesota, Minnesota Golden State, Minnesota probably has the puncher's chance against OKC because of the Edwards piece and the defense. but I'm still on Clippers have the best chance to beat OKC Island and they're probably going to lose game seven. It's weird like that. I think the trouble with Minnesota too and I'm a believer in the Wolves. How could you not be after the display they just put on? Julius Randle played unreal. Rudy Gobert obviously showed up in the way he did and Ant has just been developing as a playmaker right before our eyes. There's also some stuff happening on the periphery.

45:08You mentioned the three-point shooting where like Nikhil Alexander-Walker, low-key cannot hit a shot. Dante DiVincenzo cannot hit a shot. He was awful yesterday, yeah. Like that stuff, it either will come home to roost all playoffs long or it's going to swing back hard the other way. And I think that's the question if you're picking the Wolves as one of the definitive best teams left in the bracket is, are you betting on those guys to hit? And I think it's realistic given both of their pedigrees to say that they will, but there's a lot riding on them. And Jaden McDaniel is also, we should say, being dared to shoot yet again.

45:38And he will be again, just by nature of the way that team is built. and he's going to have to knock down some shots in addition to everything else he's doing. Yeah, the one thing I feel like with Minnesota is when McDaniels is good, they feel almost unbeatable. Yeah. And he's finding more ways to be good. Like he's finding more ways to leverage his size, to get inside, to make plays for other people. It's been an awesome, Jaden McDaniels, back part of the season. They hung him on a foul with a minute into the game. Yeah. It's like, okay, here we go. Then he had a second foul. I was like, all right, good job.

46:06You got him out of the game. I think he had 40 of the 50 fouls that you mentioned. They were calling him on hand checks, which is so funny. Like if he had played in the, he would have loved playing in the game I just went to. He would have been clubbing people. I think the last point I'll make on Minnesota, driving home, I was listening to Gobert being interviewed. And he was, they asked him like, hey, Edwards was 0 for 10, 0 for 11. Would you think of his game? Because he'd still had an impact on the game. And he was like, I don't care if he was 0 for 60. He made all the right plays. and that's all we want him to do is he made the right decisions.

46:41The ball didn't go in, but he was still making the right decisions. I thought that was a really good point because I thought last year in the Dallas series, when he got a little discombobulated, then he stopped making the right plays. I always felt like he was doing the right thing or had the right idea most of the time yesterday. He just couldn't make a shot. And that I think is the difference between him last year and this year. I think there was a stretch of maybe three or four possessions where he settled on threes consecutively. when the Wolves really needed baskets. And it was like, he's rocking a little bit off the axis here, but then he stabilized, then they stabilized, then he's getting Julius Randle involved.

47:18He's making this crucial setup to Mike Conley in the corner for a game securing basket. And also, there's also the thing where it's like when your game plan is so clearly to work the offensive glass like hell, the shots he was taking are not necessarily bad shots. Like sometimes his role is to force things so that he doesn't have to call Rudy Gobert up for a high screen, so Gobert can stay low and get those rebounds. Like, there's some trade-offs involved in that, obviously. And you would love, you know, when he gets Luka, an injured Luka one-on-one, to see him blow by him. But the Lakers were doing kind of soft doubles all night.

47:52They were trying to throw things at him to throw him off balance. I thought he mostly aced every test. Some occasional blips, but really, really impressive stuff from Ant. Yeah, when you think he's, you know, not even in his mid-20s yet. It's pretty good. Well, a lot of good setups. Plus, we got a game seven, Rob. So group chat's going right after, like Sunday morning? Right after the game, I assume, on Saturday. We'll get it up as soon as we can. I'm excited to hear it. Rob Mahoney, thanks for popping on. Appreciate it. Thanks, Bill. All right, Joanne Robinson is here from The Ringer. We were basically married to White Lotus for eight weeks together.

48:32Eight weeks, yeah. Me, you, and Mallory. Then we did a couple of rewatchables. We did Can't Hardly Wait. We had our first fight. A lot of good stuff happened. Right. And then divorce, I guess. Yeah, it was like a trial separation. So last year was rough for us with television because we had the writer's strike. They were moving stuff to 2025. And this year has been a pretty great run, especially for like The Ringer and for our pods where we had like White Lotus and Severance and a bunch of different things. And now we're in Last of Us. We have this Jon Hamm show. we have the studio we have we found out i don't know if this is common knowledge or not but the bear is going to be mid-june now so there's yeah shit's going down what what's the biggest tv storyline in 2025 to you the biggest tv storyline of 2025 i think is that um the good ip is actually delivering because i know you didn't mention and or and i'm not going to try to make you talk about Star Wars on this podcast, but Andor is firing on all cylinders, the Star Wars show.

49:34And The Last of Us is incredible. And so I think, and Severance delivered on its second season. So I think the ways in which we're used to watching this stuff drop off in second seasons after like a big first season hasn't really been the case this year so far. And that's been really exciting to know. Well, it also feels like the whole infrastructure of an episode happens. We talk about it. We go backwards. We go forward to the next one. What's going to happen? Oh, new episode. This happened. Yeah. It's still I was really worried the binge model was going to ruin it. And I think it has ruined it in some cases.

50:10Yes. Like your friends and neighbors could easily just you could put those all up at once and just had me binge him. But for the most part, that week to week structure still works. I know for us with White Lotus, like we got so much content out of it was great. It's Apple and HBO and FX are really like holding it down on the week-to-week front in that way, and Paramount as well. But yeah, in the binge model, I say this all the time, but yeah, if White Lotus had been a binge drop or if your friends and neighbors, the show that you texted me the other day was making you giddy was a binge drop, then we wouldn't get to talk about it for as long as we do and dig into it as deeply as we do.

50:44The Bear is still a binge drop. That's always confusing to me. I don't know why that's not a week-to-week. And Andor, once again, to come back to this, but Andor is dropping on three episode chunks every week, so it's going to be over in two weeks. And that's wild to me for a 12 episode season. So it's, it's, it's mixed bag, but I do think that people are finding more and more that if you want your show to, to really take root in the conversation with something like White Lotus, when we're all watching together, when we're speculating together, that's the way you really permeate pop culture in the larger conversation, um, without even the help of IP White Lotus being sort of like an original concept from Mike White.

51:24So there's three versions of these shows, right? The first version is like what we went through with White Lotus, what you're doing now with Last of Us. You watch it. You probably watch it a second time. You prepare all your thoughts and takes, and you really got to dive in. Then you wait for the next week, try to anticipate. That's one. The second version of that is probably the same thing. So maybe you don't need to watch it twice, three times. For me, Landman was like that, where I really looked forward to it every week. I knew what it was. Then there's that third version. That's a real sweet spot this day and age, which I think your friends and neighbors fits into.

51:57Okay. Tell me about it. Tell me why this is a third. This is not. This is why I was getting. This is deeper than Landman for you. What is it? No, no, no. Landman was good at this too. I don't have to completely pay attention the entire time. Okay. I can kind of do something else. Yeah. Somebody in my call, I missed five minutes. I'm probably not missing that much. It's a show that knows what it is. I like hanging out for an hour. I wouldn't watch it twice probably would never watch this season again I like I'm enjoying the hang yeah yeah yeah it's like this new version like a hang show you know what I mean a good hang show I love to know that you're somewhat second screening it I think what's so telling about your friends and neighbors is like we are covering it on the Prestige TV feed but we're probably only going to drop like 30 minute episodes about it because there isn't like we're not going to go deep into the metaphors of your friends and neighbors.

52:52It doesn't have that meat on the bone, but it is fun to talk about. There are great performances in there. It's fun to look at. And it's fun to think about it. It's a real throwback show. We've been comparing it to stuff like Weeds or Breaking Bad and stuff like that. It feels like a really vintage kind of show dropping surprisingly in 2025. Apple is doing all kinds of surprising things. The studio is really, really hitting for me as well. Well, I want to talk about the studio. But yeah, you're right. Your Friends and Neighbors was probably like a 2012 Showtime show. Yeah, exactly. It was definitely a Showtime show.

53:27Like packaged with the affair. It's like the affair at nine o 'clock and then your Friends and Neighbors at 10. The Californication sort of era. It's got the model of a lot of those type of shows where Ham is the star. Then you have like the second star who's like, oh, I've always liked them. In this case, Amanda Peet. It's like, oh, great to see her again. Yeah, exactly. I'm glad she's still in stuff. but for the most part, it's a cast of that guys and that ladies and people you're like, I know I know this person, but from where? I can't even remember. A huge roster of side characters. I did have a question for you about your friends and neighbors I was curious about.

54:03When we were talking about it as this kind of throwback show, I was remembering that when shows like Homeland or The Good Wife came out, there was all this conversation about the teen characters and how annoying people found the teen characters. How do you think, what do you think about the kids on this show and your friends and neighbors? It's so funny you ask this. I just was talking to somebody about this who works in TV and who had kids around the same age as my kids. And we're just like, it's just amazing how TV gets this wrong. Because you'd figure some of the people that write or run shows have teenage kids or just had them or are in the middle of having them.

54:38And they just don't get it. They're all kind of like anytime you have like a female daughter, like a 15 year old daughter character. They're always like super snarky and angry. They have no other dimensions other than that. The boys are always like crazy awkward and that's just kind of what they've decided all the teen characters at all these shows should be and I don't really fully understand it. What do you think they should be like?

55:32more people that I could see, actual teenagers. And it, it, it highlights even more how they're getting it wrong. Cause when they cast 30 year olds, we're all like, we know, we're not watching actual teenagers. We're watching like an invented fantasy version of a teenager. But when you cast an actual teen, I'm like, this doesn't bear any resemblance to any teen I know in real life. Does any show get it right? Is anyone getting it right? Well, the funniest is Landman. Cause I think the lady who plays the teenager is like 29 in real life. It's also in 1923 in a completely different role. But, um...

56:04No one's getting it right? You guys like sex lives of college girls. I thought the youngest son on White Lotus... I thought Lockie was a pretty interesting character that had some dimensions. Now, he's probably... He was heading to college, right? He was like a senior. Yeah, he was like 19. Yeah, 18, 19. Well, we were talking about when we did Can't Hardly Wait, like how many of those archetypes they either got wrong or there was way more there or stuff they missed. I just think Hollywood's always had issues with this. Yeah, it's true. Well, I'm glad to know that you think that Lockie, a character who gave his own brother a handjob on the White Lotus, but it's White Lotus is the most accurate depiction.

56:45Yeah, but just like a sense of like, I think when, you know, it really depends on the year, but kids are, when they're 15, they're trying to be 17, right? Yeah. When they're 17, they can kind of see 19 and 20 in college and they want to be adults, but they're not there yet. And it's super awkward. And then when they're 19, which is another age that's in these shows a lot, that's when they become a rational confidence adults. Like my daughter now who thinks she knows everything. And you know, she's like, I know I don't know. And it's like, you don't know anything. But it's just, it's weird. They can never nail it.

57:18And I think a big part of it is they have tried to zag and cast the people that are more age appropriate. And then you're heading into a whole other thing where you don't know if you're getting good actors or not. Yeah, that's true. My favorite thing that TV writers now and probably always have done is, yeah, they did this with like Dylan on 90210, is they give the teen characters their own, the pop culture interests of their generation. you know so like if you watch euphoria and all those kids go to a halloween costume party and they're all like dressed as you know baz lerman's romeo and juliet or you know like just pop culture references that are not of their time no matter how much teens are like obsessed with the 90s right now it's just clear that the writers room are like this is what we think is cool and the way we code our coolest characters is to give them interest in pop culture from the past and And those are the cool characters on your show, like Dylan, et cetera.

58:16And I just think that's really funny. They're not even trying. The Homeland Daughter was really when that's the fork in the road for how we did this. But I mean, you're friends and neighbors. The best thing is it's basically a Jon Hamm show. And if you like Jon Hamm, you're going to like the show. And I like Jon Hamm and I support all Jon Hamm projects. But this is like, Jon Hamm, just cook. You're going to you rent out all your money. your wife's sleeping with this other guy you're paying alimony to her you just got fired for no reason just start stealing from people you know I love a heist personally I have a question for you as you know I'm covering this with Rob Mahoney on the Prestige Feed NBA expert what do you think of the basketball player on this show I have some questions I have some thoughts there was a pretty strange party basketball scene they had in one of the episodes that I was like, well, this will never, ever in a million years happen.

59:15But I do think some of the dynamics they have are pretty fun about the country club dynamics, the paying some sort of private coach. How much should we spend? Do we need to get another guy? We've got to get our daughter in college to play this sport. Some of that's pretty good. And then the dynamics of when you have this big extended circle of friends, which I'm certainly I've had different versions of that as I get older. Yeah. One divorce or separation can be such like a catalyst for conversation, whether they're in the room or not. For people, how do you bring it up or not? How do you talk about it?

59:53Do you take sides? So they've had some pretty good stuff. But this to me is like a typical Apple show. It's like the morning show. It's just these kind of fun shows that you have to watch kind of one episode of and you get it. Yeah. I was thinking about Bad Monkey. similar, like in that vein in that it's like, it's such a showcase for Vince Vaughn and then everything else that's happening around him. But like, if you love Vince Vaughn, you're going to love Bad Monkey. And if you love Jon Hamm, you're going to love your friends and neighbors. But that's kind of the Apple model, right? The person to put in the square picture with the title of the show.

1:00:24And you always know who it is, right? It's like, oh, Vince Vaughn. Okay, what's he up to? And sometimes it doesn't work where it's like, Billy Crystal. He's a psychiatrist and he looks sad. I don't know. I'm going to stay away. No thanks. But yeah, I mean, yeah, the studio is writing a lot on, you know, do you like Seth Rogen? Here's the studio. But I think the studio has much, much more on its mind to say about the world is existing. And are you I you and Sean and I talked about the studio early season. How are you enjoying as you now that you see more? Yeah, we did the prestige. We did the first, I think, I think three.

1:01:02And I think we were all really interested in it. You guys liked it a little more than I did. I thought the energy was definitely a choice. And they've kept that energy every episode. It's really interesting. It's, you know, to me, it's like the rehearsal or some of these other things where people decide creatively, we're going for it. And you're either going to be for the ride or you're against it. And they have a lot to say about the studio system, why things are made, why choices are made. They're trying to satirize and parody everybody at the expense of where sometimes you watch and you're like, oh, come on, that wouldn't happen.

1:01:36But I don't think they care. Right? So it's a fun hang. I think it seems like the younger generation, like Craig Horlbeck loves it. Yeah. Right? So there's a certain generation that isn't familiar with the player and some of the other times that people have made shows like this. And so for the first time, they're seeing a show like this and they're like, this is great. Do you feel like, oh, you don't even know the player? You don't know what you're listening. Or like Larry Sanders or a lot of these. It's dipping and pulling from a lot of things I've already seen. So I kind of know, like, I'm not, I don't find it that surprising, but I still glad that exists.

1:02:12So what do you think? What's been your take through seven episodes? I love it. And there's been moments that I've been really surprised by. Like, I think the biggest moment that surprised me was, it's not an episode that I loved overall, but the fact that they got Olivia Munn, I'm sorry, Olivia Wilde, Olivia Munn's obviously on your friends and neighbors, Olivia Wilde to sort of parody herself after having been under such scrutiny for her work as a director. I thought that was pretty interesting that they had that conversation with her and was like, look, it'll be great for everyone. You'll show that you have a sense of humor about yourself and we'll just go ahead and do it.

1:02:47I think that's always really fun when you can imagine the conversations that they had with the person who's playing themselves and say, look, everyone's going to really love that you did this, that you let them know that you know what they're all talking about and you showed an even more extreme version of it on screen. And that's been the blueprint for all of these things where they were always able to get good cameos that are smartly thought out where it's like, here's this public perception of you. We're going to twist this a certain way and try to use this. And this will be a win for you and then usually it is.

1:03:20Ron Howard maybe not in episode three. It works. But the rest. And I think I think it's really interesting to think about to your point about like the rehearsal or the studio. We I complain all the time. All of us who cover TV complain all the time that there's too much television. And there is there are tons of shows that go unwatched, unnoticed by people. But the advantage of having so much television is that people will studios will greenlight something that seems really niche or really odd or really experimental like the rehearsal and just say, go for it. we have the space, we have the time, we have, we think we have the money.

1:03:57Now they're realizing they don't have all the money in the world, but we think we have the money to try this. Let's try it. And when it hits, it's extraordinary that something like, like the rehearsal exists, you know, and you, you don't get that in the sort of TV landscape that you and I grew up in. It's a great point. Well, I feel like, you know, I think about the, uh, the studio and what's missing for me because I've watched every episode. I look forward to it. I don't always love it, but I'm glad it exists. Yeah. I don't like Seth Rogen's character. I'm not rooting for him. Yeah. I like how he's drawn out.

1:04:33I get it. I totally get the character, but you're making him the hero of a show, but he's not a hero, which I think is the point. But it's like, so I'm seven episodes in. It's like, am I rooting for this guy to flame out or figure out like, oh, I can actually use my powers to save Hollywood. And maybe the show hasn't figured that out, but we're on this journey with him. And I don't know what the journey is, and I'm not sure what my role is. Am I rooting for him or against him? I don't know if the show's figured it out. It's funny to hear you describe that because I am rooting for him, but I hear what you're saying and that he's a doofus.

1:05:07He's a, he's like a fuck up, like all this sort of stuff like that. So, um, but that's the exact same journey I'm on with your friends and neighbors where I'm watching Jon Hamm's character Coop and I'm like, am I supposed to like this guy? Am I supposed to be rooting for him? I don't mind the crime. I don't mind the B &E. I love a heist, but he seems like he was a bad husband and a bad dad and kind of a callous dude. Am I supposed to be wanting him to succeed or wanting him to get busted? What am I looking for inside of this show? And that doesn't like, it doesn't have to be someone, a character doesn't have to be someone I'm rooting for.

1:05:45they just have to be someone I'm interested in. You know what I mean? And so like, if you're interested in what Seth Rogen is doing in the studio, for me, that can carry me beyond whether or not I want him to succeed or not. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it's weird. Both shows, even though I think the studio probably put a little more thought into everything it's trying to do than your friends and neighbors. But I think both of them are trying to say something that's not about the main star, right? The studio is pretty obviously trying to make all of these points about this is why we all complain about Hollywood all the time.

1:06:17This is the thought process. These are the people that are responsible for the choices of the shows and movies that make you mad when you don't understand why there's not more good stuff. This is why. You're seeing all of it right now. So I get that. These are the people who don't know how to write teenagers on your favorite TV show, et cetera, et cetera. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Your friends and neighbors, I think is way less interested in the Jon Hamm piece and more interested in this whole culture of wealthy people, their relationship with one another, their possessions, and the fact that they have stuff and they don't even realize stuff's gone when they're just collecting things.

1:06:53They don't know what it is. They have a basketball court. They don't use it. They want their daughter to play tennis because it'll get her into college and it'll be a good thing for them, not for the daughter. And so it's hitting this, why are the choices that all these wealthy people making, what's the point of them that I actually think is a really interesting concept. Well, I think it's interesting to watch your friends and neighbors right off the heels of White Lotus, which is also a show that tries to look at rich people and, hey, man, they also have problems. They're not happy, even though they're surrounded by all this luxury.

1:07:31But I think it's... Except for Greg Gary, he didn't have problems. He's figured it out. He has a great house and he knows what he likes sexually. He's good. But I think both those shows are trying to have it both ways where they're critiquing that class of person while also inviting you to luxuriate in this world and just have this sort of escapist fantasy that you too can have a watch that costs this much money or a swimming pool that looks like this or a catered birthday party that looks like that. Or a shove of watches. Just like, here are all my luxury watches one by one. Do you have a watch shelf, Bill?

1:08:11Definitely 100 % no.

1:08:16I don't know, man. Is there anything on your friends and neighbors that you saw that you're like, yeah, I should do that. That's something I should do. I mean, when they went to the guy's little private basketball court, I was like, oh, that's that's pretty impressive little indoor court out of nowhere uh the some of the uh the the part they maybe don't hit hard enough especially with older parents is how drunk people get i think they've gotten in a little bit but it's definitely something you see when when people have like the kids go to college and it's just like the couple left like people getting like hammered.

1:08:53Uh, it's like this whole, that's what I've never seen in these shows in the right way where it's like, Whoa, they can't even walk and they're 54. The more you talk about this bill, the more I want you to make this show. I want you to make the show. Yeah. I want you to make the show where you get the teenage characters, right. And show what the empty, the, like the well-to-do empty nesters do once their kids are off to college. It doesn't even have to be well whole life around work and your kids and then the kids just go. Some people, first of all, you better really like who you're married to, which I'm fortunate enough.

1:09:29I really enjoy my wife's company still. But you better really like whoever you're married to. Yeah. And you better be prepared for like, guess what? There's going to be a moment when your kids don't really want to hang out with you and they're just going to leave and they're going to go and it's just going to be you guys. And some people are like, that's how it goes. All right. Wait, can we talk about Last of Us? Sure. What do you want to say? I don't watch that show. I know you don't. I know. Are you having FOMO given that The Last of Us and Andor are dominating at least a lot of the conversations we're having at The Ringer?

1:10:04Is that something like, does it bum you out to not be watching these shows or how do you feel? I don't. I think I'm going to watch Last of Us at some point. Really? Yeah. Okay. I do. And then by the way, I watched the first five episodes. Yeah. I just wasn't, for me, those bleak end of the world type things, like you really kind of have to be in the mood in the, you know, post COVID, I wasn't really that interested to explore the end of the world, but maybe I'll get there in the late 2020s. I don't know. Andor is something like, that's one where I think you really have to buy into the Star Wars universe and I think it becomes more meaningful, right?

1:10:45I just couldn't step into Andor unless I had some background, right? To a certain degree. But I think, you know, when you listen to Chris and Andy talk about it on the watch, you know, they have been so disillusioned with Star Wars. They might have grown up on Star Wars, but they've been so disillusioned with like what's going on in that world. and what Tony Gilroy is doing with Andor is just like making a really complex show about politics and spycraft and all this sort of stuff and with like this barely visible veneer of Star Wars on top of it. So I actually think you could watch and enjoy. Interesting.

1:11:23I should just watch the first one and see what I think. Yeah, see what you think. I mean, the problem is I'm just on these terrible channels like 2B and Pluto and just like, oh, Death Wish is on and I'm just watching some movie from 50 years ago. Do you pull up Pluto because it is comforting to see the old like grid of what's on? I love the grid. Yeah, I love the grid. I still have cable too. Same thing. I'll zip through the movie channels. Yeah, just what's on. The Tubi main screen's great. I like what Amazon will get frisky sometimes with like 90s classics or 2000s movies you haven't seen. I like having my handheld.

1:11:57So you're happy with The Last of Us. I know you're covering it all over the place. Yeah. I mean, can we spoil the big thing that has happened this season that everyone already knows about? I feel like at this point, everybody knows, right? How would you hide from that one? Yeah. So they kill off the main character. So Pedro Pascal is not on the show anymore. Looking at it from the outside in, like, what is, are you, do you have any reactions to that? Yeah. I was, I was startled. Yeah. Because they did one of those things that we've gotten used to during the social media era of huge surprise, you know, and you see those moments on the last of us.

1:12:37Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, something happened, but then it just was persistent. And then the next day, of course, it's on like Apple news on my phone, like why Pedro Pascal left the last of us and they strayed true to the video game. And so obviously even me who doesn't, didn't watch the show knew that he wasn't on. So, but so it stayed true to the video game, right? Or no. Yeah. That, that happens in there was like a first edition of the video game and then a sequel to the video game. And in the sequel, they kill off that character right at the beginning of the game. So they killed him off. And we were all wondering if they would string it along just to keep their star, Petra Pascal, on the show a little longer.

1:13:15But they killed him in the second episode of the season. But I was just curious if that kind of move is something that makes you want to watch the show more. If you're like, oh, they're doing something as bold as that. That's interesting. I kind of want to check that kind of storytelling out. or if you're like, because we've heard. Seems risky. Well, there's been this interesting, there's been a reaction of if Peter Pascal is not on the show, I don't want to watch the show anymore. And I have to say, I got a little like bored with that because I've just heard it before and those people don't ever wind up quitting the shows.

1:13:49I've just heard it for too often that people are like, I'm quitting. I'm never going to watch the show again. We heard on Game of Thrones every other season, people would say that in reaction to something. And then more and more people watched it every single year. Walking Dead was the best example of that the first couple of years when it was really a water cooler show. And they would kill off a couple of people and be like, what? I'm quitting. I'm never coming back. And then they always do. So I'm just like, it's not... What's the number one? What's the number one I can't believe they killed that off, that person off characters?

1:14:19It's got to be the guy in Game of Thrones, right? Sean Bean? Sean Bean, yeah. Just like that, they did that. And everyone who read the books knew it was coming. But for somebody like me, it was like, I thought that was the star of the show. It was like, wait, what? How do you do that? Given your allergy to genre storytelling, Bill, how did you wind up watching Game of Thrones in its very first season? Because it was on HBO? I didn't watch it very... I didn't. I came in late. Okay. And a couple people, and it was the then Grantland universe. Right. just hammering me. But it got to the point where it was clearly such a great show and such a phenomenon that it was like, if I like TV, how do I not watch this?

1:15:05It was one of those. Yeah. And I'm trying to decide which, like, between The Last of Us and Andor, which one I want to sort of... Steer me toward? Yeah, bug you about for the next five years to see if I can get you to watch it. Probably Andor. My biggest hole, my worst one, your worst one is Sopranos. Correct, clearly. My worst one is probably Six Feet Under. You've never seen it? Yeah, I've never watched it. That is wild to me. Yeah, it's terrible. It's a bad job by me. No, it's just such a Bill show. I know. It's like a show you would really like. I can't explain it. Okay, that's okay. We all have those things.

1:15:39Yeah, that's one that I know I have in my back pocket. I never watched The Shield, which has enraged a couple people in my life, but now I feel like that's probably too dated. No, I mean The Shield. And The Leftovers is the other one that's a miss for me. Yeah, but The Leftovers isn't a Bill show, but like Shield and Six Feet Under. Well, my girl's in it though. Well, yeah, Carrie's in it, but you can see her in other things, right? I know, but I feel like I have to support the Carrie Coon franchise. I was watching Flippin' Channels and Eagle Eye was on with Shia LaBeouf and Michelle Monaghan.

1:16:13Michelle Monaghan, yeah. Much younger because it came out 20 years ago. And I was like, wow, there's our girl. She's back. I still feel like attachments to all the characters. Although it seems like our guy, Walton Goggins, is kind of unraveling a little bit. I have a lot of questions, Bill, and no answers for you. Just only questions. People go on White Lotus and weird shit happens after. They lose their marbles. It's a lot. I don't know. We support Walton Goggins always on this podcast and all podcasts, but I just have some questions about what's happening. I do have some intel. I don't think they're going cold in season four.

1:16:46What? Yeah. I tried to warn you with this. I don't think Mike White likes cold. It's anti-cold. Do you know where we're going? I don't know where we're going, and I don't think they know where they're going, but I don't think it's going to be cold. But it's somewhere sunny. Okay. We're not going to get the Swiss Alps. We're not getting Aspen. We're not getting anything with snow, I don't think. What's the next show this year that you're excited about? What's coming up that you - The Bear. The Bear. Yeah. And how do you watch The Bear? What else is coming? I can't. So here's the thing with The Bear.

1:17:17I can't do more than two. I think that's how you have to treat it. And I think people who binge, you try to watch like five in one night. That's not the show. You can't do it. You're doing the show a disservice. That's not how it was meant to be written, perceived, consumed, anything. But would you do two over the course of a week, like Monday through Friday, every night we're watching two? Or do you do two and space it out a couple of days and two more? So I'm saying I would watch two in a row. Right. But I'm saying like Monday night, two episodes, Tuesday night, the next two episodes, Wednesday night, sort of like that.

1:17:49Or the problem with binge shows like that, though, is you don't want to be too far behind what everyone's talking about in case you get spoiled or something like that. You know, if I was in charge of FX, I would run one on Sunday night and one on Wednesday night. Now do a Sunday, Wednesday, a staggered schedule so people could talk about each one. But then the next one's coming. And that's I just think that would work better. I told you why they started like the bear is a binge watch, right? It was to ignite Hulu, wasn't it? No. Well, I was told that it was because John Landgraf thought it was like too bleak and that people wouldn't stick with it if it were week to week.

1:18:26So I understand why they dropped the first season as a binge. But once they saw what a hit it was, I will never understand why they keep dropping it as a binge. I think it's just because they think people expect it at this point. But I don't know why you wouldn't just reverse course and own the summer with the bear, which you could easily do. So I, I can tell you this, it would have been great for Grantland and it would have been great for the ringer and it would have been great for any content. On the watch, um, a great podcast on your network. Um, Chris and Andy interviewed Tony Gilroy about Andor and he was talking about the release schedule and he was saying dropping three episodes a week.

1:19:07He's like, I kind of like it. It's like a little movie every week. Right. You know, so people can watch it. He was like, I do worry about the podcasters. And he sounded actually genuine. He was like, it's a lot for the podcasters to try to cover. And I was like, thanks, Tony Gilroy, for thinking about us. Well, Stranger Things was the other one that just doesn't care. And that's coming to, I think, this summer. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think like midsummer, July, something like that. Yeah. The one I'm the most excited about, God knows it'll ever when it'll ever finish and it probably won't be 25 is uh is when they figure out euphoria especially if they do the moving the characters forward by five years gimmick which it sounds like they did yeah i just i've always wanted somebody to do that i think what did like dawson's creek do that or some one tree hill one of those shows advanced the characters got old and they just said fuck it moved everybody forward yeah that sounds like a one tree hill move dawson's never did that we had to suffer through all the years of college.

1:20:04Well, at the finale, the finale of Dawson's, they did a time hump. Well, the best time hump of all time is Mallory's favorite moment in the history of television, which was the end of the affair with old Dominic West, with the old age makeup. She's never been more delighted about anything that's ever happened. I genuinely think you two think of the affair is one of the greatest things that's ever happened on television. It's one of our bonds. The first season, I would stand by the lore of everything behind the show, behind the scenes of the show. That would be the greatest oral history, no pun intended, I think, that's ever been written about a TV show.

1:20:48I still don't really know what happened. Euphoria would be a pretty good one, too. I love that Mallory's not here and you're just filling in for her. I appreciate you bringing that energy. I'm just taking some of her takes. I appreciate that energy. What show are you the most excited about in 25 that hasn't come out yet? Well, we got another throne show coming up on out of the seven kingdoms. We just don't know when it's coming. We thought it was coming after the last of us, but they haven't even announced a date yet. So I don't know when that's going to happen, but I'm really, really excited for that one to podcast about it with Mallory and Chris, I think is going to be really fun.

1:21:20So that one should be good. There's a, there's a new show from the creator of Mary of Easttown. that's gonna kill yeah that's gonna be a really good one i think so you know there's there's a lot to think about in terms of what we want from television going forward because television is radically changing in terms of how they're making it and what exactly they're making and so i think you know the more that people can make it clear in terms of conversation or engaging what actually hits and what they're not actually watching. I mean, your friends and neighbors, you're saying you're watching like 80 % of it.

1:22:00Is that what you said to me? Something like that? Yeah. I wish there was some way to keep like how they have aura rings and Apple watches, like where your eyeballs go during a TV show. It's like, so like a 72 % I'm looking at the TV during it. Yeah. Is it an 80? Are we at 30? Where are we? So that's a hang show for you. That's just sort of like a background watching show for you. But with White Lotus, you were sat and you were taking notes and you were ready for it. In 1923, which I really, really, really enjoyed and is a big show for me and my wife. I think there's very few shows we equally like the same percentage and White Lotus was another one.

1:22:41But 1923 seems like it's a hang show, but you actually are popping your head up a lot on that one. There's a lot going on. And I thought the actors were really good on this season. I thought the wife character who is trying to get back with her husband. Oh, yeah. She's great. She was excellent. I thought she was an excellent actress. She's great. What do you think of the rumors that the guy who plays her husband, Brennan Spinner, that he might be Batman? What do you think of that rumor? Would you like it? Interesting. I know he has some Sidney Sweeney movie coming, right? And he's in a movie with the lady from White Lotus that I think already might've come out.

1:23:20The girl from season two. That one I think already came out. Yeah. Yeah. So I think they're trying to make them a thing. Him as Batman though. I don't know. I mean, the one thing with him is I do feel like he's winning fights on 1923. It's like, don't fuck with it. Like he has that kind of energy to him that I think works. He threw that one guy overboard. Like, you know, so I mean, I think that would be really interesting. one, two other shows we didn't mention before we go. Paradise was totally watchable. I thought that was probably a 72, maybe a 67 on my eyeball scale. Yeah. Definitely could go on eBay and look for stuff and just pop up.

1:23:58And then I didn't watch it. I'm going to, but The Pit, I think was the unexpected surprise hit of the year, right? Yeah, but The Pit is not Paradise background watchable. No, you're locked into The Pit. Yeah. Yeah. I think The Pit is definitely... uh, I think and or just for what I like is the number one show of the year for me. Um, and, uh, it's just operating on a different level altogether, but the pit in terms of similar to your friends and neighbors, it feels like a show from a different era. Uh, we feel like we're just watching ER and elevated ER and, uh, elevated ER is a great idea. I would have bought that one in the room.

1:24:38Oh, we're doing elevated ER done. The best part of the pit, not just that it ran longer than your normal HBO show runs. So you're just like really with the characters week to week for a while, but it's coming back at the top of next year. Like we don't have to wait three years for another season. They're bringing it back at the same time next year. And so, you know, that's how we used to watch television. But yeah, The Pit is, I mean, absolutely killer. I can't wait for you to watch The Pit. I can't wait to hear your pit takes. Yeah, I'll be banging. Once we get through NBA playoffs, when we hit like mid-June, I'm just, that's it.

1:25:11I will be all caught up on all TV by probably mid mid late July. So what I'm hearing, though, is that you want to podcast about Euphoria season three with me. That's what that's what our plan is for. Am I? I think I'm too old to be on that podcast. Are you? But no, we're. Well, first of all, I don't want to jinx it because God only knows with all the people involved in that show, if we ever get to the end of a season three filming. But they are filming it. Yeah. So that's a win. I believe. I believe. The one I'd want to do with you is like the five year anniversary of the idol. Diving back in and trying to figure out exactly what happened.

1:25:52Is that my punishment for not having seen The Sopranos? You're going to make me watch the idol five years later. What happened? I actually don't feel like enough's been made out of them postponing the biggest phenomenon show that they had since basically a non Game of Thrones. Like just an absolute phenomenon that's peaking on TikTok. And instead of doing season three, the guy's like, can I do this other idea first? And then it just becomes this two and a half year shit show, however long it took. Yeah. And then it was so bad they had to basically combine episodes to get out of the season. Like, what are the odds?

1:26:27That was a brush fire. That was terrible. That was... It couldn't have been worse. Yeah. Okay. Five years later, the idol, what happened? What happened and why? What happened? A deep dive. Yeah. Yeah, coming back. All right, so you can hear Joanne on House of R with Mallory, as well as Prestige TV podcast, which was a feed we were basically like, we were holding on to the side of the cliff, hoping for good shows. And then boom, we're having a really good year. I know, there's a lot going on. Yeah. All right, good to see you, Joanne. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks. We're taping this, it is Thursday morning.

1:27:02There's so many storylines in play, big picture, that I had to bring the guy who's seen it all, Bob Ryan, who is the best ever at comparing players, different eras. He's seen everything. What guy do you want to start with? Because I really want your big picture context on some of this stuff. You want to go Anthony Edwards, age 23, taking it to the Lakers, taking down Durant last year, taking down Luke and LeBron this year. What do you see with him? Interesting. There was a point in the middle of the season when I, in fact, I don't even know if Twitter turned to X yet, but I either tweeted or Xed that he's got some Michael Jordan in him.

1:27:42And then next thing you know, I saw that somebody, you know, in real consequence, saying the same thing made me feel very good. He does have Michael Jordan in him. Michael Jordan has qualities in his game. Same size, body type, range of skill. swagger. He's got swagger. God knows. And, you know, we took, he got everyone's attention last year in the world games, you know, we lost, he was the best player on the team. And that was news to a lot of us that he would be the best player on that team. And he's built on that. And he's, he's a growth stock. My God, you know, they've got something very special there.

1:28:21So yeah, he's gotten my attention. Wait, hold on. Can I say on Edwards? So world games was two years ago and then last year was the big playoff run. Olympics where... No, I'm just getting the chronology right. No, that's just fair. But that's where he got my first... Now, I was aware of him in Georgia, and I knew people that thought he was very talented, but there was something missing. But whatever was missing, he appears to have found it. Well, you think last year versus this year. Last year was the, whoa, Anthony Edwards, he's here. I can't believe it. I didn't realize he was like, whoa, there's a little Michael Jordan here.

1:28:57this year even though he sucked in the he sucked in the closeout game last night he couldn't make a three but Rudy Gobert said something interesting after that I agreed with because I went to the game he made all the right plays like he wasn't making the threes but they were the right threes to take they kept sending these doubles staggered doubles at him he usually was making the right decisions and the truth is if they had made some threes they would have won by by 30 but I'm with you like I didn't go to the famous game. I know you did the 63 point game that MJ had. And I hate comparing anyone to MJ.

1:29:30He's the best player I've ever seen. But there are pieces and it's undeniable when you see it in person where you're like, ah, that kind of, just the way he's carrying himself, the way he's easily going by people, the way he easily seems like he's the best athlete in this game. It does bring back some memories. I got to be honest. It's fair. Bill, it's always fair, fair to guys say, guys, remind you of great players and there's qualities about them without going overboard and saying that they are that guy or or is better than that guy i mean absolutely and then he people there's there's types we all know that there's all kinds of types there's guys that remind you and then there are certain people that i don't you know you they're they stand apart that they're and i always say that one of the things that the truly great players uh have something special that that is uniquely theirs.

1:30:23There's something about their style. Maybe it's a quirk of some kind, but, you know, and they don't have to be the top of the line player, but I'm talking about just a Hall of Fame level excellent player can be very special in a way that nobody else reminds you of him. For example, and you'll like this, I think, I'm not saying he's the greatest player or the greatest guard of all time. I'd like that. But I've never seen another Dennis Johnson. There's something about his package. That's the word we want to use. The packaging. His package was special and different and worked for him. And I haven't seen anybody that reminds me.

1:31:03I've never seen anybody that reminds me of him. And yet there are plenty of other great players that somebody reminds you of them. Yeah, Dennis Johnson's a good one because he had size. He could kind of jump, but he would pick his spots. We got him with the Celtics. was like a slightly different part of his career because he was so good on Seattle and that, you know, was a big part of those two finals teams. But the way he would pick his spots, the only person that kind of reminds me of him is Drew. With the way Drew has gears during the season and then gears in games and then in a fourth quarter can elevate a level where he goes from being a role player to being, you could really feel it in the Celtics Orlando series where it's just like, I feel like Drew and sometimes I feel like he's the second most important guy in the Celtics for the late game stuff.

1:31:49So he's in the right spots. Can always count him to get the right rebound. I always feel like he's going to make a three. He can guard anybody in the other team. And that part reminds me of DJ, I think. But I think you're right. DJ was a one-on-one. But of course, part of that is when we knew him and we knew, we saw him night in and night out and understood the overall approach that he took, which was that he didn't play 100 % all the time. he took nights off and at least in 85 86 he's absolutely positively but he pre-announced them to the team to danny specifically i love this danny tonight you're getting the shots and he always picked a team that they were going to kick their ass at home it was a game the way the game was going to be won and and you can see i've got the logging game by game and oh minutes played 28 fga four uh you know danny minutes played you know fga 17 um because dj was taking the night off and yet the converse is when uh when the big games came you wanted that guy and larry bird would be the first one to tell you and the as he as he famously anointed him as the best player he ever played with and and and never backed down from that right well you know another one-on-one this a fun combo.

1:33:08Um, just cause like, I always think about this stuff and you're one of the, I probably learned it from you. I've never seen anyone rebound like Moses, like Moses at his peak. I've never seen anybody, whatever he was doing. I remember writing about in my book where he would go, he'd almost go to the baseline almost out of bounds. And then he would just back into people. And I've never seen anyone do that before or since like he would just use his ass as this like weapon. And all of a sudden, guys were flying backwards and he was right next to the rim. I've just never seen it. No, he was special in that regard.

1:33:42But to me, the number one rule of rebounding, do you want the damn ball or don't you? And, you know, he wanted every rebound. I mean, and there's two types of statistically good rebounders. There's guys that get what comes to them and they're big and they're strong or they're athletic. And there's guys that get rebounds that, quote, don't belong to them unquote and and uh moses was the champion of getting rebounds that didn't belong to him and that's what he lived for rebounding was his reason was his identity and his i know when that mattered that was the part of the game that mattered the most to him there was there was no question about that he was an okay offensive player he didn't have a great repertoire you know he had a big man post you know power stuff but he wasn't a finesse anyway shape or form a finesse offensive player, but he sure was a phenomenal rebounder.

1:34:31Yeah, that's what I love, though. Game four of the Golden State Series, Draymond made that big stop, and then Butler came flying in for this crazy rebound in traffic, and he was just like, I'm getting this rebound. I went to the Laker game last night, and they're just getting killed on the boards, and everybody's just kind of looking around at each other like, I don't know. But nobody was like, shit, I better get some rebounds. You know, like I think about 2010 game seven, Gasol was, you know, really taking it to KG, but Kobe, because he wasn't making shots and Kobe's like, I'm just going to have to go get, try to get as many rebounds as I can and came flying in.

1:35:09And that's what swung that game. Nobody in the Lakers did that last night. Everybody's like, ah, Rudy Gobert, I wish we had a center. And that you could watch them rolling over in real time. It was kind of crazy. interesting yeah well i think the whole thing they they i'm guessing i wasn't i never did anything in person as you did but the lakers i guess recognized the futility of their circumstance some point during the middle of this series right and shortly and i mean you know and they just weren't didn't have a deep enough roster they could you're lucky they had two guys let alone three and anyway we all know you saw it and you know so now we'll see what that offseason brings All right, more guys now and where you see them.

1:35:51Who is Brunson to you? Brunson almost seems like he's at a 1974, like he could have been easily on the Knicks with Walt Frazier. Yeah, very, very true. Brunson's one of those guys that you could easily see playing in a 1968 All-Star game as well as playing today. I had two guys in a previous generation that I said were complete throwbacks games that they were in combinations of the 1950s. The combination of Dolph Shays in the 21st century, Paul Pierce and Manu Ginobili. Those two guys had old games spiced up with a three-pointer. They added the little extra sauce, which was the three-pointer. But other than that, their game translated very well in previous generations.

1:36:37Brunson, he shows you what you have to do if you're going to excel at his size. and he's figured out you know the angles he's figuring out deception timing uh he's strong he's strong he can take a bump and and keep the shot when he goes to hoop and he just he's got a basketball mind a phd um you know he's a he's a player's son and this coach's son who really had obviously absorbed all the lessons and and you and he's got and people talk about the the flopping it doesn't even bother me at all i think he's just smart that's all i don't buy i don't with him. I got with my, I've mined it with some people over the years, but it doesn't bother me at all with him.

1:37:19I, I, I, you go guy. I love him. I just think he's, he's, he's a special. And here's the thing, Bill, when they got him, you know, I always had my eye on him back to Villanova. And, and now of course I didn't see him play much in Dallas, you know, but I knew he was there, but when they got him, I said, Oh, that's a good move. Very good move, but they've overpaid. He's not a star. He's a, he's a wonderful auxiliary player. That's what I thought. Oh boy, as he turned out to be worth every penny for them. Yes. Do you make anything of the fact that only one team built around a small guy in the history of the league has ever won a title?

1:37:58Yes. I think it's a good historical lesson. In fact, I've had this discussion this year with people about you go back over the history of the NBA and I only can think of one in my time anyway. You know, and I'm thinking about what I know about the 50s and Kuzi never won until he got Russell. And so, and he was the preeminent guy. And the other guys, the other little guards of his near him were Slater Martin. And he did win. He had Mikan and Bobby Davies. And they won one in 51. But anyway, Isaiah Thomas arguably was the best player on the bad boy Pistons. And they won back to back and could have won three in a row because they were jobbed in 88 on a terrible call.

1:38:43don't get me started lambier you know when they put lambier they put kareem on the line and that was a terrible call but anyway i say i think we're on the same page here only only stockton ever won you know um chris paul uh nash no you know so it's hard it's hard when your best player is a point guard and and the next best player is a point guard and so So we'll see how far they can go, not just this year, but in the future, with their best player being Jalen Brunson. Yeah, because there was a great book about the Pistons in the late 80s, how they put together that title team with McCloskey called The Franchise.

1:39:29And it was all about them with this conundrum of the league had been around for four decades at that point. Isaiah was their best player, one of the best players in the league, but nobody had ever won with a small guy. So what do you have to do? And basically the answer was Isaiah had to give up a lot of his offense, lead the team. He could have had 30 a game. Instead, he scored like 22 a game, 23, whatever it was. And he was trying to get everyone else involved. And sometimes I wonder, like when I watch Brunson, how much he has the ball, if he's not, like are they better off with him scoring seven less points a game?

1:40:02You know? That issue was raised earlier in this series, at least in the New York Post anyway. I read that every day and I didn't see it. And they raised that issue that he's got to be less ball dominant for this team. And the next game out, he was. And in fact, so, yeah, that's a very, it's a final. It's like so many things in basketball. That's why I love the, among the reasons I love the game. I love, but the, what goes into winning, you know, and they need to calibrate guys' skills. that's what I always said about about Jordan and the difference when Jordan people think he didn't win a championship yeah he needed he won a championship when he finally got Scottie Pippen as a tremendous sidekick but until he learned how to calibrate his skills with the other guys and not you know and balance it out and know when to take over when not to take over know who to go to when not I mean it's all very very important stuff you just don't throw together talent you've got to you've got to play the game in a quote-unquote right way.

1:41:08And that's a universal truth. And you've got to figure out how I'm going to blend with the other guys. There's one ball and five guys. And I mean, what's my bet? Petey Kirill used to talk about that. Bradley grew up thinking that way. And you've got to be able to think that way. Byrne understood that. And God knows Magic understood that. And Michael didn't originally do, even though it came out of North Carolina, Indeed. But he finally figured it out. And once he did, the championship started to flow. How about Luka? First of all, is he one-on-one? And second, do you think he'll ever understand that balance of, I have to make everybody else better?

1:41:48Maybe I don't need to score 35 a game. Where do you see for him from a title standpoint? Yeah, I know right now. First of all, before we get to that, I was thinking that I know one person sitting back having an extra late tidy night last year was Nico Harrison. He must have been smiling as the Lakers out the window. Anyway, yeah, Luke got interesting there because he does have the ball all the time. And I think he's still only 25. He's still got lessons he can learn. And I think he's smart enough to recognize that he's got to think in these terms that we're talking about. but uh the lakers still unfortunately for them uh you know their roster is shy and and now now who knows where they go from here with uh lebron i mean we played 40 years 41 years old in december of this year yeah is he going to play again and blah blah no luke is interesting you know in that regard he's he's so skilled but that's that's the thing that when you have all that skill you have to learn how to utilize it properly there's no question you know and uh some nights it seems like that he does and other nights he's got the ball too much so I don't think he's fully gotten there yet yeah I wonder I'm sure they're going to be talking all summer is he going to get in shape seriously he's going to take this there's the whole defense thing too with him you know and I wondered my big question about the series before they started was will people will the other guys be able to take advantage you know how much can you exploit him on defense you know and And it happened.

1:43:27And that's something that the Lakers have to be realistic about. Yeah, the Lakers case hinged on, can Luka not get torched on defense? Can we get any rebounds? And how much can we ask from LeBron? And as the series went along, LeBron started to die, especially in these fourth quarters. So you said he's going to be 41 next year during the playoffs. I think that's right. September 30th, this is Thursday. So I know that. Yeah, so have a check. have a check played 16 years and it seemed like 40 when ha when have a check it was like oh my god somebody played 16 years in the nba this is impossible but then probably could have played a couple years more like he you were going to this i did not i i by the way i've got a column in the hopper it's either going to come out sunday or the week after they they didn't tell me which one they want to run it's on it's on havel check by the way for reasons that you'll see okay um and and you'll like but uh i know you will like it but um uh john did not quit because he couldn't play anymore his game had diminished sure to me he averaged 16 points a game that year um but he could still play and and he he you know when he he said he would have hung around if he had any idea how good bird was going to be you know and and he would have hung around anyway no john played 16 years he was ended at 38 went out with a 29 point game uh and and he quit because he didn't like the circumstance anymore he wasn't having fun with with the way that the celtics had deteriorated in the locker room quite frankly and yeah it was a down period and um so anyway but he still had skill uh he he went out he went out to be able to play but he was 38 uh that year he ended in fact he ended uh the day his last game was a day after his 38th birthday by the way and that just so happened.

1:45:21He had turned 38 the day. He was born April 8th, 1940. And his last game was April 9th, 1978. Wow. Yeah. Cause they always, always stories about how he would come and like, just play with them and scrimmages and stuff when like three, four years later and was still pretty good. And they couldn't believe how good he was. These guys, these young guys, you know, that, that, that, this, this, yeah, that was his birthday present to himself to come to practice and suit up. That was fun. Well, so I mean, this is the question with LeBron cause we saw it with Brady, where he just kept playing in the 2017-18 range.

1:45:54They had Garoppolo, and it's like, how long can this go? They need a succession plan. Quarterbacks don't play this long. And then he just kept going and going and going. I do feel like there can be generational freaks. I really wonder how long LeBron can go. I think he could still keep playing, but if he's going to be making$50 million a year as one of your two expensive guys, that's where it becomes problematic, right? Because you're just asking, you're asking for nine months a year, potentially, if you're going to win the finals from this guy that you need to rely on for all these different things because he's in your$50 million spot.

1:46:30And that's where I don't know what the, it almost seems that the answer might be, maybe he needs to take less and try to boost up the team and think about it that way. But I don't know if he would do that. I don't know. That obviously would be a very rational solution that we know along the way, supposedly Brady was able to do that in his time with the contracts. And it's always wonderful. And with the money that we're talking about these people make, it shouldn't be that hard of a decision if you really want to win. Plus they make it off the court too, right? Like they can still make up money all these different ways.

1:47:07But the issue about how long, he's occasionally, has he not at times over the years or recent years when somebody would kiddingly say about playing near 45, not dismiss the possibility that he wouldn't want to keep playing until he's 45. You know, I mean, if he did too, I used to look at, I remember thinking about Brady this way, if he were to deteriorate, take a percentage, five, 10%, you know, how much would you still like to have him? And the answer was always, I still take him. If Defond deteriorates 10 % next year okay yeah um that's still a pretty good player uh based on what he was able to produce this year right um and so it's it's you know that he certainly could still play in this game uh he is in phenomenal shape uh we learned that he spends literally a million dollars a year and on conditioning yeah and or more yeah and and he we see the benefit of it it's and we've never been We've had old guys.

1:48:08They've always been the two oldest guys I can think of that played long this long were Kevin Willison and Robert Parrish, who still holds the record for most games, which I guess LeBron is eventually going to eclipse. Well, and then the old washed up Kareem, I think, got to 42. Didn't he? Was he like 41 or 42? But those guys got into their 42 and 3 range, those guys, particularly Parch. LeBron, but they weren't running up, they weren't doing the work, the up and down work that LeBron does. They were doing the down low work. But anyway, we haven't seen anything like this. What I'm babbling is say, we haven't seen anything like this before.

1:48:48Anybody that could play the game, the way he plays it at this time, at this level, at this age, we haven't seen that before. It's a whole new territory that we're exploring. Yeah, I voted for him second team on NBA and I stand by it, right? I just thought he was one of the, I mean, there were a lot of injuries, but Jason Tatum, what do you see when you see him? Who do you see pieces of with Jason Tatum? Jason Tatum at six feet 10 is the most all around skilled player the Celtics have ever had at six feet 10. You know, Larry didn't possess that kind of ball handling ability. Larry didn't possess that kind of get your own shot at your will against almost anybody at any time you know most people but there were people you know we know that could give him irritate him this guy the it's funny because he's like Pierce on steroids because you know I declared 20 years ago that Paul Pierce was the best scoring machine in Celtic history you know not the best player still larry but but the best scoring machine that he had every aspect of scoring you know you know what they say now all three levels right well the fact is that uh his mid-range games were superb and he can get a shot off anytime he wanted and he could and he had a three-point range and he's the best bill i think he's the best finisher on a break the Celtics have ever had was was Paul Pierce and um he had that and he and don't foul him because he's an 80 plus percent way up there mid-80s percent homer free throw shooter this is the best all-round consummate individual offensive player that they've ever had.

1:50:25Jason Tatum is making a bid for this honor. And as a matter of fact, I'm sure a lot of people now think he's already earned it. And it's funny you mentioned, not funny, but I'm glad you mentioned this because I've already been on local public record as saying he just came off yet another yawn, routine, 35-point, X-rebound, X-assist game in a playoff. And it's not getting enough credit for it here in Boston. He's not. this is part of the curse of the history of the franchise he's he's up against you know the Havichek's and the Larry's and the Pierce's that's that's who what happens when you come to Boston and and there's good in that and there's bad in that you know and and this guy is I hope he's going to be totally appreciated for what he's done and how much he's improved his game and then broadened his game last year the big thing I took away from the playoffs with him was improved defensive rebounding, traffic rebounding.

1:51:18I thought he became a terrific traffic rebounder last year, which to the likes I hadn't seen before. We know he's broadened his passing game, you know. And then his individual offense, I mean, some of these step backs, they're, you know, because all over the league we're getting used to it. Curry has set a template, you know, for distance that you've got to match now. And because I used to call it Curryland, now I call it Caitlin Clarkland, but that's a story for another day. But, you know, look at the shot that, how about the shot that Carl Anthony Towns made that last jumper the other night?

1:51:53Game five, yeah. After we had the one where he was going out of bounds, which was, that was a bird-like shot, going out of bounds on a baseline, making that from almost behind the backboard. The next shot, that was five feet behind the arc, minimum, seven feet tall. But Pierce has, I'm sure, excuse me, Tatum has this ability to make step backs almost in that range. And, and people, I think people here, I'm taking him for granted. I really do. And, and I don't know what more they want out of him, frankly. I agree with you. I've been talking about it all year and then people get mad at me that I'm talking about the Tatum too much.

1:52:28And I just feel like he's made such a leap from two years ago to last year, but then last year to this year where there was, I thought Tatum and Brown last year were 1A, 1B in a lot of ways. Brown was awesome last year and the distance between them, you know, it was, you never knew who was going to be the best guy in a given game. Now Tatum is clearly the best guy in the team. I think he's clearly either the third or fourth best guy in the league. And you didn't even talk about like how good his defense is and his ability to guard all these different positions. But the rebounding is the thing I love the most.

1:53:03He's their best rebounder by far. You take a game like that Minnesota Lakers game last night. He just would have gone under there and battled go bear and gotten like 14 rebounds. Cause he's like, this is, we're going to lose unless I do this. I think I, I appreciate that piece of it the most. I just think he's turned in as such a, I don't want to say bully, but there's, there's, there's a toughness to him this year. There's a confidence. I mean, he's a, I mean, obviously he's, he's, he's smart and, and, and he's, he's smart and, and, uh, confident, but humble too. He's, you know, there's nothing, nothing like with this in you know the whole package i don't see anything it's no yeah buts you know i don't have a year but and uh on him and and we and we know off the court is his personal life with it this wonderful kid and you know the whole thing is he's he's entirely rootable is what i'm trying to spit out here yeah i think this year people will appreciate him more i think if this goes a couple more rounds i think he's gonna get win if they win you know if they be all this and and i get don't get me you know i'm not a championship or a bust guy okay i never have been i never will um because too many variables going to winning any championship including in this game seven and things are going great and then somebody goes down it can happen and um we know that so i i don't take anything for granted there i i'll say this um i'm going off key here a little bit if anybody other than okc cleveland or boston wins i'll be stunned One of those three is going to win.

1:54:39You got to draw a line after those three teams in this league. You have to. And that's that. And one of them is going to win. I don't know which one. I'm anxious to see. So I had the, and we're taping this for game six of Clippers Denver. I had the Clippers in that conversation. And just, I must have had amnesia with James Harden. I just, I just, I think I just forgot. I don't know. Maybe I blocked it out of my mind or whatever. And it's like, what am I doing? Of course, of course, they're not making the finals with James Harden. I should have known. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back.

1:55:09I want to talk about Jokic.

1:55:36in their shop Appartaker app. All right, we're talking history, current NBA, gotta talk Jokic. I went to the game Saturday when he just would not let them lose against the Clippers and basically played the whole game and just did everything. And it was a man absolutely possessed. And it was, you know, it was up there for me with LeBron in game six in 2012 and some of the Jordan stuff I'd seen in person. And just when I'm thinking about the best players I've ever seen in person, this now moved, this moved him just being at that game and just being like, oh my, I can't believe how good this guy is.

1:56:16Where do you put him? I never thought we'd see another Bill Walton. I never thought we'd see another bird. And yet there's pieces of both of those guys and a lot of the stuff he's doing. And he's also doing way more than that. But when you watch him, like, did you ever think we'd see anything like this ever? let's go back early in his career here and i remember a local writer out uh out there uh getting talked to me and asking about his passing and how did i think his passing rated with with walton and i hadn't seen enough of him to have i couldn't believe i was having this discussion that anyone would be so sacrilegious as to suggest that there was a center who would come along to pass anywhere near as well as Bill Walton.

1:57:00And guess what? He's hit. That was a fair, he is, right? I mean, he's there. And we can have the argument. He's so, and so that's the thing. Not only is he as good a pass as Walton, but he's a far superior scorer. Oh my God, you know, not even questioned. And so my position on centers, as you probably well know, I mean, you start with the three all-timers and whichever one you want to make the devil's advocate argument for go right ahead russell kareem and wilt you know and i could you know fine i mean i'm a russell guy but i mean i totally respect the other two for what they were and and and then i said that's then you draw a line now we start who's number four well now we got a guy firmly entrenched in the in the discussion uh that we'll see how it all plays out how many championships he'll win or whatever it is.

1:57:55But in terms of wanting to watch somebody play, I'll tell you what, he's at the top of the list. I mean, it's extraordinary. You don't know what he's going to do next. You don't know what incredible pass he's going to conjure up. You don't know how many threes he's going to make. You don't know what great rebound he's going to get. No, he's a treasure. I mean, my God, it's a total delight to watch. and he isn't, you know, he's still got a long way to go, you know, depending on how long he wants to play. We don't know. We know he might want to go become a jockey, you know, a seven-foot jockey someday.

1:58:31Who knows about that? But anyway, count me among the admirers, the idolaters of Nikola Djokic. Yeah, Russell and I talked about this a little on Sunday, that this whole theory that he's just going to retire when he's 34 and be done with it. after going to that game on Saturday, I don't believe it. The guy's too competitive. You don't shut that off. He was an absolute full-fledged maniac in that game. And just in general, there's pieces. Obviously, there's some Walton. There's a lot of Bird. One of the things that him on defense reminds me a lot, Bird always had the reputation of being not a good defense player.

1:59:11Meanwhile, he made all defenses and was always up there in steals. but Jokic's ability to read what the other team's going to do on offense and know what they're doing in advance and then fuck it up basically as they're doing it, jumping in these spots where they're like, oh, I didn't know somebody was going to be there. His brain's always moving. It's in person. It's unbelievable. I never thought after Bird of Magic, I never thought I would see somebody that processed a game like that. To me, that's the standard. There's always a danger of allowing yourself to think that way. I've done it myself.

1:59:46You're never going to see anything. I remember when Havlicek retired. Of course, we haven't seen, and we were talking earlier about styles and individualistic people and people that, there hasn't been another Havlicek, but the point is in effectiveness, Bird comes along, and renders John as 1A in Celtic Pantheon now instead of 1. um yeah you you you there's always you got to prepare yourself for for uh the evolution of the game this guy uh is really ultra special and you know and the thing that made bird so special ultimately was the mind game and playing thinking two steps ahead and now we got a big guy taller than him that uh you know that can uh do that as well no it's it's it's he understands the game, the game in a way that some of the other guys never, never, never will.

2:00:38No, no question. So you have, you have like, there's that Hakeem, Moses, Shaq kind of area, right? Maybe Giannis is like right underneath it. And you already have Jokic in that area, potentially looking at that spot right under Wilt and Kareem. Oh, he's at a bridge right now. You're kidding. First of all, my number four is Hakeem. Okay. He's not at number four. Okay. Okay. So, oh, so in between, he's closer to the big three than he is to the four. I mean, he's going to be in that, he's going to have to be in that discussion. You know, and Tim will go to Harham on championships. Wilt won two, you know, and the other guys won multiple.

2:01:19Russell, of course, won 11 and Kareem won, what, six, whatever, five or six. Yeah. Sheck had four, Moses had one. Yeah. Yeah, Moses wasn't pretty, but he was effective. But anyway, Robert Parrish got three, by the way, because he got one with the bulls, by the way, although he wasn't prominent. Anyway, I got him in between. He's at three and a half right now on his way up. All right, so we go. Your whole premise that I loved, we're playing the aliens and we can grab anybody. And Jokic, Bird, and Magic agree to come. Now we need to find two more guys to put with those three where we're just like, we're just going to have the aliens backpedaling, not knowing what's happening, just amazing passing.

2:02:09Who are the other two people playing with Jokic Bird of Magic? Well, I still want Michael. Okay. And you know who I'll take now because that gives me a weapon. Since I got Magic, I got the ball handling. I got the orchestration. I got the fast break. I got everything settled to run it. I got special qualities that he had. Stephon Curry. Why not? Why not? For the spacing. The greatest shooter of all time. You know, I'm coming. I mean, the greatest shooter of all time. I don't need LeBron, you know, multi-skilled. I don't need LeBron. I'll bring him off the bench. He can be my sixth man. He won't like it.

2:02:48Be an amazing sixth man. What a wonderful sixth man that would be. Yeah. Why would we dismiss the greatest shooter of all time? and who's a team guy. Oh, by the way, who can also pass. By the way, he's people. He's not a point guard. He's a two guard. Who can pass? Period. He's not a point guard. He doesn't think, it's not his role. But he can pass and will. And by the way, the other thing is how well he goes to the hoop with either hand that set up things for himself and other people in the long run, Curry. So, Andrew, and I'm just, this is on the fly question that you ask, and I'm, my first, why not?

2:03:28That, with the guys you named, he'd fit in perfectly. If Maravich had a three-point line, are we talking about him in the 60s and 70s, like we talk about Curry? Yeah, but remember, the game came, the shot came in in his last year. Yeah. 1979-80, when he joined the Celtics in the midseason. And his knees were shot. he did make he's a guy that scored 68 points in master square garden without a three averaged 44 points a game and 44 people youngins the guy averaged 44 points a game in three years of college basketball at lsu without a three yeah and and he had that he you know he would have done what what but so many of them who didn't would have done go home and work on it and he would have gotten you know certain guys that occasionally took shots in that range and when it was considered to be a bad shot and sometimes they went in you know uh he he would have worked on that shot he would but uh he made some threes i remember some games where he had effective threes for the selfics yeah yeah oh my god it's just because you know they've done these estimates you know which i've at lsu going over the game films and trying to project what his average would have been had he made had well he also would have taken more of them though because If he knew there were three instead of two, he's taking 20 a game.

2:04:47It's like Larry. It's like Larry. People that anybody, my God, you imagine how many flourish today? If you tell them, oh, you can take 10 or 12 a game. You know, Larry embarrassingly would take four or five because it was, you know, there. You know, he famously didn't want the three, didn't like it. Well, he's more as the weapon. It was like a, either to get the crowd going or to demoralize people. Yes, he did it as a psychological weapon more often than not. and saved his spots. But he would have, hey, if you said, okay, if that's the game, I can play that game. And he would have gone, oh, you've gotten better.

2:05:22A lot of guys that can, you know, by the way, you know who would have been ready-made for the game? I can still see him. Jerry Lucas. Jerry Lucas was bowing threes before there were threes with that shot put thing he had. You know, I can still see him with legs extended. And he shot it from here. Not here. He shot it from here. But, you know, anyway, Lucas would have been a phenomenal three-point shooter. Stretch four, getting 15 rebounds a game, Jerry Lucas. And then computing his season's average in his head as he went back down on defense. Famously, computing is, re-computing the shooting percentage as he would go back down on defense.

2:06:02Where do you put Giannis in all of this? Because he just got knocked out of the first round again. He's spectacular. he's not you know now we were talking centers earlier but oh yeah i think the question now is going to be the rearrangement of the all-time 10 you know the all-time fan you know yeah how can you not include him in any current discussion about all-time top 10 players i i can't i can't ignore him i'm in sometimes in awe of him um i am a little annoyed that he has legalized not just a euro step but in his case a euro gallop and it's you know that's this whole thing is this whole traveling thing i i used to laugh it off but it is epidemic it is it is bad and the league seem to care about it and uh and he's a exhibit a you know um and and how devastating it is when he can do it because he can go from midcourt to the best no more than two dribbles you know with Waze Lab.

2:07:02Oh, he's phenomenal, I think. And this whole issue with the buck, that's a whole, you know, that's worth lots of discussion. Listen, they gave up a lot of assets for Drew Holiday and then Dame Lillard. And that's it. I know. And what could they possibly get? And who could afford them? And what could they possibly get back that would make it even remotely worthwhile? Not that in my head, I don't have the scope of the vision or knowledge of all the teams individual circumstances to know who could possibly make anything remotely, a deal that Milwaukee would ever want. But they have to start thinking about it whether they're from here now.

2:07:40So, you know, clearly it's over. And where's Doc from here? So I don't know whether that is either. I'm hoping Doc comes back on my podcast. Milwaukee has no first round picks that they control of their own over the next five years, which makes the tanking a little bit harder. I got one more guy for you. SGA is another guy who feels like he, easily could have existed in 1974. Right? He's a tremendous guard and he's tremendous. You know, he's he, I'm trying to think of, I can't think of, you know, among all the great two guards, does he remind me of anybody? No, I just see him as a wonderful all-around shooting guard, period.

2:08:25But I do, I love the idea, by the way, that that team has an all-Canadian backcourt. Right. you know, he's from Montreal, do it. And, and so I love that. They go, I'm still waiting for Canada to make a splash in the world and the Olympics sometime soon, you know, I mean, but they choke every, every time. Yeah. They fall apart at some point. I know it. They, they're massive underachievers, Canada. But, you know, anyway. Oh yeah. He, he, I could see FGA, you know, in, in the 1970s, Flora Championship Series. I can see him. Yeah, absolutely. Positively, yeah. He's not... So you have... No, I can come up with.

2:09:12You have OKC still as the favorite because Vegas would agree with you. I think that... No, honest to God. I mean, I know it sounds parochial. I'm sorry. I still think that if everybody is fortunate enough to be healthy and able to bring their A game, that the Celtics can win. and will win if they're fortunate enough. But right now, the variables there, starting with, you know, Holiday, starting with Ned Brown, and will somebody, you know, mess around with Tatum's wrist? And poor Zingas, you never know when he's going to take a misstep. Never know. You can't count on. Too many what-ifs there for me to be totally confident.

2:09:52But I'm saying if they show up in the finals healthy, you know, then, and I don't care how, and I want everybody to be healthy. I still like their chances. OKC's interesting though. There's no question about it. And I'll tell you who's, I read about, I was prepared for him but having read about him before he ever set foot in college. But my God, Holmgren is good. Holmgren's good. He's a very, very useful player. And Hartenstein, he's not a star, but he knows who he is and he knows what his job is. and he does it well and of course then the rest of the team fine and well coached of course so yeah I like that and Cleveland, don't dismiss Cleveland but right now they're doing it without Garland as we speak and I think they're not going to go all the way without their full complement but they're good Mobley, defensive player of the year they're good too But I still honestly believe that the Celtics have more assets ultimately than anybody.

2:11:02I still think if they're healthy. Is this Celtics team, where is it creeping up on the popularity rankings in Boston? It just seems like people love, you know, they have a real history now with Tademan Brown because those guys grew up on the team. Porzingis is a cult hero. Horford is among the most popular role player plus guys they've ever had. Holiday and White are impossible not to like. Pritchard's a fan favorite. Yeah, it's just, you go on and on. It's like, everybody loves everybody on this team. I don't remember many teams like this on the Celtics. And the vastly underrated Luke Cornett, who's been a nice adjunct to this team.

2:11:41Okay, you're right. Well, this is a new generation. You know, this is their team. This is, the Celtics have had, you know, four or five incarnations. Well, you got about the 50s, then you got the 50s and 60s team. that's one you got the Havichek Cowens team that's two you got the big three team that's three you got the second big three team that's four this is the fifth Celtic incarnation you know of greatness and and and a new fandom uh I see so many young people in the stands I um you know uh and and it's terrific and uh uh um it is what a likable bunch you know I mean uh it it is it's just uh there's no polarizing players Marcus Smart who I loved but acknowledged his foibles yeah to me and he and Jackie Bradley Jr.

2:12:28were like Siamese twins of sports yeah okay and you know I love Jackie Bradley Jr. today you know I don't care if you're at 180 but um there's no polarizing who's a polarizing player unless unless people want to manufacture something about you know like oh Brown he dribbles into traffic he still doesn't have a left hand all right you know That's as close as I can come to any kind of a negative. You're right. It's a beloved team and very well worth rooting for. Yeah. And it's something that, I mean, I certainly grew up with where everybody stayed on the same teams. And then in the last 15 years, that kind of got blown up and people move around more.

2:13:09And you have something like Jokic in Denver, you have Curry and Golden State, or you have Brown and Tatum together in Boston with Horford. and I do think it's more meaningful to the fan base and to the people at the games they have real history with these guys you know and like we tried to capture some of that in the Celtic City about these generations how they overlap and how people buy in and people overlap with the stars from the previous generation and does this stuff actually exist and I do think those guys care about that I think Missoula cares about it you know I think the organization cares about it that came across clearly well it sure came across clearly uh how garnett and pierce felt about it within their time how about ray allen ray allen was like i'm a celtic he only played five years and he's like i am a celtic i consider myself a celtic that did that did surprise me you know i i uh he's always kind of a little bit unscrutable as far as i'm concerned and that was good to know Yeah, that was really good to know.

2:14:09No, it's all true. Oh, by the way, I can't leave you without filling out. I decided Peyton Pritchard is a cross between Larry Siegfried and Eddie House. Wow. I'm probably one of the only ones that's going to get that one. What's the Larry Siegfried part? Well, he's same rough size. Yeah. uh close and feisty tough he's a scrapper yeah sigmy was oh i can hear johnny most said he's in his shirt said he's in his shirt well i can see that payton's in his shirt he said and he's good for one sneaky offensive rebound a night right and and he's and he's tough he's a not just this three-point machine he's a good basketball player yeah and and i love when he takes himself inside and finds a way to get the shot off, you know, and sometimes they block it.

2:15:09Okay, fine. But he can, I love him. That's the secret. And of course, you know, the Eddie House part is self-evident, you know, the three point. But that's where he is. It's a cross between and Eddie House. Before we go, you were a big part of Celtic City. So we did nine episodes. We tried to cover 80 years of the team. When you saw all of it laid out episode by episode, like did you had like what what were you expecting and then how did you feel as you watched it well first of all you can't you can't do everything as you well know you know there are a couple things i would like to have seen uh addressed at the time maybe it was more thoroughly or or at all but but i'm not remotely going to nitpick i thought it was a spectacular job i thought that that they got the essence of it they said you accomplished your mission that's what i thought i could say they've accomplished their mission and and and then tied it up with a wonderful bow with with the 95 year old bob koozie saying how much he wanted the 18th championship to keep the continuum that he could have relate to and be feel a part of going that was exactly what you were trying to portray i think in in the spirit of that and and oh no i thought it was terrific um i'll tell you it was a hard episode was was eight uh was eight that was you know seven That was hard.

2:16:26You know, when you live through it, you know, and I'm sure a lot of us, I know how I felt watching it. And, but, you know, it's part of the deal. You know, those things happened and it was a down period. And it was, you know, those things were just frightening, but it was just awful. But by us and we didn't know. So, you know, I had seen, I was so excited about him because I happened to have stumbled. I don't know what I was doing, Bill. I have no idea why I was in Durham, North Carolina that particular evening and why I was, because I don't know what kind of feature or whatever I was doing. I was there in Cameron North Stadium the night as a Maryland player.

2:17:09He dropped 40 on Duke. He got my attention. I could see. You went to that game? I was at the game when he got 40 at Duke. Oh my God. And then twice, twice, Mike Krzyzewski has said to me that the greatest two opponents he ever faced in college were Michael Jordan and Len Bias. And, you know, and I know how excited Larry was. Larry was going to come early and work with him and play with him. And, you know, Larry was up on him. He knew he was really excited about it. To think all this happened in a flash in, you know, 36 hours and 40, it was just astonishing. we tried to hit that I mean that episode not exactly a feel good episode but that 90s Boston how dark it got like the garden got knocked down Bias and Reggie the Red Sox if I said eight I meant whichever one encompassed the burden yeah yeah okay but oh no that group and I loved it you got Wick there saying Danny how do you put together a big three you know and or and uh well here's how you do it you know right you take your fifth round your your number five pick and trade it for Ray Allen and and now you could you persuade Kevin or Garnett to come and now you got a big three I'll tell you what I remember though about me and I'm on record I mean I can't deny it I printed it that when they put the big three together original that second big three I said yeah well guess what you need a lot more than that i wouldn't trade i've there's no team in the league would trade their next their final other nine for the next celtic nine that they got the worst support upon which they went out and got eddie house james posey and then of course pj which which was a great story about being recruited literally being recruited by the big three or points of thereof and uh so i was you know i was a skeptic i didn't think it was going to be enough but never dreamed it would just come together as quickly as it did.

2:19:12Those guys were so ready to do it, you know, to get it, to have a, they recognized what the possibility was and they were so ready to do it. And it was going to require the word sacrifice. It's going to require a balance of skills that they're going to have to calibrate. I love that word, calibrate their skills to get the most out of it. But But ultimately, there's nobody like Kevin Garnett. He's special in terms of the approach. As good as all-round players Pierce was and a great shooter Allen was, you know, we all know that the ultimate key person on that whole thing that made it work was Kevin Garnett.

2:19:56Yeah, the sad thing, you talked about earlier how you don't judge players by championships. you look at KG like just this completely misused asset in Minnesota forever like gets drafted in 95 we head to 2007 he's won two playoff series and meanwhile everybody is like I think he might be the best player in the league like nobody even knew how to put him in context because he just had such bad luck his owner gets penalized for the Joe Smith signing and they lose like three first round picks in a low like Stefan Marbury just decides he wants to go to New Jersey and that happens. Like it's just, there's 30 different things that prevented him from ever succeeding in the NBA in the way he should have, which sometimes that's how it plays out.

2:20:39I mean, I don't want to hold that against him unless I have a certain, you know, antipathy for somebody in a sense, you know, I like to hold it against them. But if I don't care about them personally and their game, then, you know, fine. And it's like, you know, I think I got tired of people dumping on because he's never won a championship and obviously never will. Chris Paul, it's not his fault. And once again, we get back to the little guy thing. Chris Paul is a great player, a great point guard, a technically pure point guard, perfect guy in that job, and a worthy Hall of Famer. So I'm sorry, I don't judge him for not having won a championship anymore, and I judge Stockton for not having won.

2:21:24I hold Carmelo accountable, though. I think they could have beaten the Bulls in 97 for sure. And should have. Mrs. Freak goes, he's not a guy you want in a big moment. I'm telling you, Karl Malone was not, I think he's the most overrated great player, supposed great player in NBA history. I do. He's not in my, just a top 10 forwards at all. He's one of the main reasons I decided to write a basketball book because I didn't want people 50 years from now to be putting him in the top 10 because of his stats. It's like, we got to fix this. Somebody's got to go on the record. You'll love this. I don't know there was a period of time when I carried in my wallet a little list of 10 forwards better than Carl Malone I swear to God it was such a topic for me and he's not a bad human being or anything like that no that's not it but I just all those thousands and hundreds of millions of points and I'm sorry he wasn't a guy you want Your other guy like that was Elvin Hayes, who ends up winning the title.

2:22:32But wasn't he like benched in the fourth quarter when they actually won the title? I forget the story. Yeah, he was in the game seven. He went out of the game for whatever reason. And Mitch Kupchak came in and made the big play of the game. He wouldn't have been in the game if Elvin hadn't come out. So they wouldn't have won if Elvin hadn't been watching from the bench. Yeah, that's for sure. And I loved it. I'll tell you what I relished. 1975, when the Warriors swept them. And the rookie Keith Wilkes, 6 '6", 1, God knows what, 80, 90, outplayed Elvin Hayes, you know, four inches taller, 50 pounds heavier, you know, and he outplayed Elvin Hayes.

2:23:16I loved every second of that. Do you think Harden is this generation's version of those guys? pardon yeah i said yeah yeah i'm i'm i can't stand watching him play and and i'm and i'm and so to a degree i am you know vindicated that he doesn't come up in the playoffs the way people think he should you know i just can't stand watching that dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble game and and i always say he must have bribed every scorekeeper in the league i don't know how those assists i don't remember any of these assists but they're there to the point the league right i guess i i still can't believe it i don't know how but i mean that's just my personal you know preference and i i don't i'm not i'm not a big hardened guy where do you stand on mb on joel mb oh mb i said the beast i want to like him very i love his game uh you know i mean I love his range of skill in offense.

2:24:17It's tremendous. And I've seen him in games where I just love to watch him play. But there's something, and he's an engaging online presence, that's for sure. But he's on another level. He's not, even though he did get an MVP, and I think I would have voted for him. But he's not Jokic, and he's not Giannis. He's another level down where he belongs. But he's on the way to Hall of Fame. I have no problem with that. All right. All right. This was a good hour. The thing is, stay healthy. You know, he has a hard time staying healthy. Well, I mean, you've been watching this forever. These centers, once the injuries start, it's not like it gets better.

2:25:02They're like buildings with real structural foundation problems. And then at some point, it becomes a problem. And it feels like once you've had a few of those surgeries, injuries, whatever, I don't know. I just don't, when you're seven foot two, I don't know how you like, oh, no, I'm fine. You know, I don't see it. Yeah, big guys. Yeah, you're right. You're right. It's a good point. Like I saw Kyrie Irving at the Laker game yesterday, right? And he tore his ACL. I feel like he can come back. He's six two. Like, you know, he's a guard. He can, I feel like he can bring back his movement and get back in a year.

2:25:35But when you, you know, you've had a bunch of these. Anyway. All right. That was a really fun hour. I'm glad we caught up. I needed your take on a bunch of stuff. Bob Ryan. And thanks for being Celtic City, by the way, but great to see you as always. Hope all is well. Thanks for having me there. And I appreciate it very much. So long. All right. Thanks to Mahoney and Joanna and Bob. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. You can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch this as a video podcast on Spotify. Going forward, we are going to be live on Sunday at some point. We don't really know the basketball schedule yet, but it's going to be me and Russillo at some point on Sunday.

2:26:13And we'll be going live on YouTube for that. Enjoy the weekend. I will see you on Sunday.

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