A Finals Pick, Greatest Knicks Ever, ‘Made’ N.Y.C. Stars, and Big NFL Trades With Max Kellerman

12:35Max Kellerman:does the other team believe it too because when Brady's on the field everyone but both teams believe it yeah and like okay here comes like they win now and Stafford drove him right back down the field and won the game and then went on to win the Super Bowl. He's a special guy. To overcome that kind of stuff, it's like Curt Schilling. Whatever you think about Curt Schilling should be in the Hall of Fame, obviously. And when guys like Brocious and Tino hit home runs at the end of games, that signals this ain't your year, especially 2001, 9-11, and in New York, and the Yankees are destined to win.

13:12Max Kellerman:But a guy like Curt Schilling is like, not so fast. Right? Right. What was it? Destiny, whatever in Destiny, or what do you have? It was like we're strippers or whatever. Mystique and Destiny, or I forgot what two words it was, but everyone was using that in New York, that the Yankees are going to win. Yeah. And the retort was those are, you know, that's all they are.

13:37Bill Simmons:I kind of still can't believe they didn't win that year. I mean, part of it was because Rivera got dinged up in the ninth, which was inconceivable in the moment. Actually, even worse than that,

13:48Max Kellerman:Rivera, who's one of the best fielding players at his position of all time, turned around. Game was over. Double play ball. Turned around and threw it into center field. Stuff like that happens. And then you bring the infield in and you get a little pop out. But the point is, when you have a guy like that on your team, all that kind of team of destiny stuff on the other side goes away. Stafford's that kind of guy. He had to overcome Brady to do that. That's why when Stafford has the ball late in the game, I thought the Rams were going to win the game late in the game, even though Seahawks, you knew, were a little bit better than them, but it's like they got Stafford.

14:24Max Kellerman:The Miles Garrett piece,

14:28Bill Simmons:I don't think most people know what he looks like. Now, you could say this for most football players, but if, I don't know, Carl Anthony Towns walked into a restaurant, most people would know what he looks like because we see him on a basketball court. And football players, for the most part, we don't know what they look like. I think people know what the quarterbacks look like. You don't think they know what Garrett looks like? I think so. I don't know. Would my son know what he looks like? I'm just thinking the recognizability of NFL players. First of all, he's had his helmet off

14:56Max Kellerman:on the field. We know famously. It's true.

14:58Bill Simmons:I think there's just a level of fame that he doesn't have that this Rams thing is going to immediately solve. He was this underground. He's playing at Sunday, 1 o 'clock ET, getting the shit kicked out of it. His team's getting the shit kicked out of them every game, basically. he's on one Thursday night football game a year, probably against the Steelers and maybe a crappy Monday night game. And then everyone is telling us how great he is. But, you know, sometimes this happens. I remember this happened to Moss in the mid 2000s when he just became irrelevant for like three years. When you're just on shitty teams year after year.

15:32Max Kellerman:Moss went from, is he going to challenge Jerry Rice as the greatest wide out ever to, which seemed debatable. Yeah, at the time. and then it was like, well, I guess that didn't happen. And then it was like, oh, wait, maybe it did happen when he went to New England. It was, we got him for a fourth round pick.

15:49Bill Simmons:But that's how bad he was on the Raiders. I have him, we might have talked about this. I have him second. Yeah, who would be second over Moss? I feel like Rice won Moss too. He's kind of set in stone. No question. People try to push the Terrell Owens case every once in a while. And it's just like, doesn't team murdering matter?

16:08Max Kellerman:I love T.O. He murdered at least two teams, right? Well, T.O. gets a little bit of...

16:14Bill Simmons:Doesn't that matter? The chemistry stuff has to matter a tiny bit when you're talking about the greatest of the greats.

16:18Max Kellerman:Fine, but then you also have to give him credit for it. And this tripped me out. When he plays in the Super Bowl, hurt. With a broken leg. He is the best player on his team. I think he had eight catches, seven or eight catches. He is arguably the best player in the game. We couldn't cover him. and he was criticized heading into that game. It's like, he's a selfish player. And I was thinking, wait, this guy's rep is so bad in the media that playing with a broken leg, he's criticized for being selfish and then he's the best player on the field. It was tough.

16:48Bill Simmons:It spoke a lot to how annoying he was in the 2000s. But also how great he was. The A.J. Brown piece has just a whiff of that because he was unhappy with the Eagles. But watching from my TV in LA, he should have been unhappy. I didn't understand anything about their offense. So the Pats get him. Not last year. Rumored for, I don't know, three months. It was pretty, once the Eagles started drafting receivers, it was pretty clear it was going to happen. They gave up a 28 first. I wish they had top 10 protected it, but they don't do it in football.

17:18Max Kellerman:Yeah, why don't they do this?

17:19Bill Simmons:They don't do it. Are they allowed to do it in football? They are allowed to do it. They just, you could have done it where it's like -

17:24Max Kellerman:Make it top 15 at least, right? Because if Drake May gets hurt, something happens, you wind up in the middle of the pack, that's the NFL. Well, it was interesting that they didn't make it 27 because I think if I'm the Patriots, I wouldn't have because of the schedule, Super Bowl hangover.

17:40Bill Simmons:If you're going to stink in 27 or 28, 27 is probably the safer bet.

17:45Max Kellerman:You think that's the Pats? I figured that's the Eagles.

17:47Bill Simmons:I think that's the Pats.

17:48Max Kellerman:I figured that's the Eagles saying, all right, we don't want a late first round. It's practically like a second round pick. Why don't we roll the dice and see maybe something happens in the next year or two?

17:58Bill Simmons:I think it was the Eagles because they're, they're playing the percentages of what happens to the team that loses the Superbowl and gets the first place schedule and had everything go right the

18:09Max Kellerman:year before. You think it's the Eagles wanting the next year? Yeah, I agree. I think the Eagles want not this year, but I think, I think the Patriots wanted it to be 28 because of some fear of 27.

18:21Bill Simmons:What could happen? I, if I was the Eagles, I would have wanted 27.

18:24Max Kellerman:Really? Yeah. No, I want 28 because the thing about AJ Brown, and this happened with Jalen Hurts. What was Hurts' big problem before they got Brown was that he couldn't see the middle of the field, right? Then you get a guy who, and like, is A.J. Brown a little past it? Yeah, he's probably not as good as he was a couple years ago. But he's never a guy. We don't know. They didn't throw him the ball. Yeah, right. You don't know. But he's also, it's his age. It's the whole thing. He's never a guy who relied on speed. It's not like, oh my God, A.J. Brown is a one-on-one matchup nightmare because he gets all this separation.

18:54Max Kellerman:He's a nightmare because he doesn't need separation. he's going to catch the ball, right? So a guy like that who's tough, who can go across the middle of the whole thing, makes a guy like Jalen Hurts go from, hey, is he going to work out to almost two times Super Bowl MVP? And you got a guy like Drake May, who was in a version of the situation Hurts was in. He looked lost in the Super Bowl. You get a receiver like that, and that could make him, that can easily have him taking the next step, especially in the moment of truth. There's a lot of good stats

19:23Bill Simmons:with A.J. Brown against man-to-man, where he's basically like the most unstoppable guy in the league. Yeah, because... That was the biggest issue with the Pats. Like, none of the receivers could get open. As the year went on, you could feel it. And then in the playoffs, when they start going against these awesome defenses, you know, not to make excuses for Drake, because he, you know, I don't think he was healthy, but he was also really bad in the Super Bowl. But then they do that all 22 shots, and you watch what he's looking at. Yeah. And everybody's just blanketed. They would have like the straight line guys open, then every once in a while digs but it really the second half of the year wasn't open as much.

19:59Max Kellerman:But that's the thing about Adrian Brown he's kind of never open but he's always open. Yeah. Like wherever he is you can throw him the ball and there's a good shot he's going to catch it and that is like the perfect player for a young quarterback who needs to take a step forward.

20:11Bill Simmons:He had 145 targets in 22 and 158 in 23 and then the last two years was 97 and 121 and it added up when you watched it because, and I get it. Like, they were doing that weird math thing with the possessions where it was like, we're going to shorten the game because we have a better team. Every play felt like it was 35, 40 seconds, and the pace of the team just seemed way off. But if I'm A.J. Brown, I'm, hey, like, he clearly got fed up with it. Now he's on this Patriots team that desperately needs him. He's going to have Dobbs next to him. They have a bunch of young receivers. The offensive line's okay.

20:49Bill Simmons:It's going to be slightly better. The Eagles just had, their offense was ridiculous last year.

20:55Max Kellerman:Yeah. Right? There was no real reason for, I mean, you could try to rationalize. It was a bad idea. Empirically, it was a bad idea, right?

21:04Bill Simmons:Well, which part? Like how, because to me, it's like you're going to pay 50 million a year to Hertz, and you're going to pay 60 million to two receivers, and then you're basically going to walk the ball up the court. Like you've built this team that's supposed to do this.

21:18Max Kellerman:That dominates both sides of the line.

21:20Bill Simmons:Yeah, and now you're playing a different style than the team you built, which I never really fully understood. I know it's frustrating with the Philly fans. So the best case, and he's a Vrabel guy, which is a big piece of this. Vrabel loves his guys. Vrabel needed this, by the way. He needed something good to happen. He got AJ.

21:42Max Kellerman:It was all worth it.

21:43Bill Simmons:Yeah, you know, it's been two weeks without a story, and now he's got AJ Brown.

21:48Max Kellerman:But that's good when coaches should go get their guys. Yeah.

21:52Bill Simmons:Well, I was looking at the wide receiver trades because best case was Moss. When it gets in trouble, when you give up like big capital, like a first-round pick, the Cowboys gave up two for Joey Galloway that year and he immediately got hurt. Roy Williams, Percy Harvin, people like that. That's where you get into trouble. You don't get into trouble when you're getting one of the best receivers in the league.

22:14Max Kellerman:Actually, everyone thinks that like forever now, It's like quarterback's the most important guy, obviously, right? And then everyone's thinking, well, then his protection is the sort of left tackle. And then it's defensive end off the right side or pass rusher because that, and that, no, it's actually quarterback one, one A is a legit elite receiver. At least one. A. That's so much more valuable than every other position. That's what the league is now. And by the way, you bring up Randy Moss. when the Giants got Plexico Burris. They won the Super Bowl. Then the next year, he literally shoots himself in the foot, right?

22:53Max Kellerman:And they don't have Plexico Burris. And I'm thinking at the time, well, no one receiver. No, it was night and day difference, right? Like when you have an actual elite top five guy, top 10 guy, it's other than the quarterback, the most important position on the field. But a lot of those guys -

23:10Bill Simmons:That's what made the 11 Giants so annoying to me. You didn't even have that. Their second Giants Super Bowl.

23:15Max Kellerman:No, we didn't have that, but we had some good receivers.

23:18Bill Simmons:Terrible loss. To me, that loss is much worse for me as a Pats fan than 07. Can I tell you? 07, they beat us.

23:27Max Kellerman:That second one. 11's ridiculous. That second one was so amazing as a Giants fan. I was more exhausted after watching that game than I remember at any point in my life. Well, you stole the Super Bowl. You didn't have a better team. I could imagine a little kid growing up in Boston somewhere watching that game. And all he knows, his first memory is that somehow the perfect season. They're about to be anointed. Greatest team in the history of sports, right? Yeah. And they somehow lose in the most unlikely way, like the Tyree catch. It's happening again. Again? It's like a train wreck for a Patriots fan unfolding like that?

24:09I did not.

24:10Max Kellerman:I went to that game. I was in LA for that game.

24:12Bill Simmons:From the moment Brady had the safety on the intentional grounding that I'm still don't know how that was the call. And the game was just off. We had Gronk on one leg. The Giants, who was it, Brandon Jacobs? It was just a weird Giants offense. It was a lot of like, the score was always weird the whole game. It was like one of those games where it was like 15 to 12.

24:33Max Kellerman:You let them score intentionally.

24:35Bill Simmons:Yeah, every piece of that game was kind of off.

24:39Max Kellerman:And then the Manning hat, like you hear Belichick. That was amazing. And this is what Belichick did at his best. Take away your first and second option. Beat us with your third option. And he did. Like, that's, okay.

24:50Bill Simmons:I was in the end zone where Eli had that throw.

24:53Max Kellerman:Yeah.

24:54Bill Simmons:The throw was incredible.

24:55Max Kellerman:Yeah, it's one of the best throws ever.

24:57Bill Simmons:I think he, what was he on? Like his own eight or his own nine? I don't remember. But he just like, it was a fucking frozen rope. It was unbelievable. Like 35 yards. Catching the guy like this in the one spot where he could get it. And that's, if you're making the Eli Hall of Fame case. Which I do. It's whatever he was doing on that last Giants drive, even though he tried to throw it to us three times. But he was scrambling for his life and just creating shit, and it somehow worked. And then that Manningham throw.

25:24Max Kellerman:The same reason that Peyton, a lot of his career was bad in the playoffs is because when you are the chosen one and you are expected to be perfect, right? Man, there's a lot on the line in those moments. When you're his kid brother, it's like, if I fail, big deal. so why not go for it right like there's no fear of failure for a guy like eli do you think now

25:47Bill Simmons:that now that we have dart it's the face of the giants does he get compared to eli or is it is

25:53Max Kellerman:it too far gone now he's more talented yeah you know it's a different game now but no i mean the giants just kind of over here he's a hall of fame look first of all he had an iron man streak he was playing in bad weather city like for the with the wind and everything at like meadowlands was not.

26:10Bill Simmons:So that's the real Hall of Fame case is him in the playoff games. He was freezing cold in Lambeau, the candlestick. Twice. Against Favre and Rogers. And taking huge, huge, huge punishment in those games. Tough as nails. He's the toughest motherfucker. And that's... I don't... See, I have trouble with the Hall of Fame in general because I feel like we've just increased the capacity of the restaurant to ridiculous...

26:36Max Kellerman:It's just the basketball has been ruined now. But it's inevitable because once whoever the worst guy is who gets in, that will now be the benchmark. And people say, well, he's better than this guy. Why isn't he in?

26:46Bill Simmons:All due respect to Michael Cooper, but that's where the NBA Hall of Fame is now. Like Michael Cooper's in. So if you go through the Knicks team right now, it's like, who could make the Hall of Fame from the Knicks? It's like, who wouldn't make the Hall of Fame from the Knicks? It might be five of these guys. You got three starters who could do it.

26:59Max Kellerman:Yeah.

27:00Bill Simmons:I mean, Towns is probably a Hall of Famer at this point. And it's nuts, but it's... Brunson. Yeah, Brunson definitely. And then the question would be OG. Right, if OG could stay healthy for a couple of years. And then it's like, what if Mikael Bridges plays 1 ,700 games and is the number four guy on a title team? I don't know anymore. I don't know what a Hall of Famer is.

27:16Max Kellerman:But you have to like, Cooper, you could hang your hat on something that defined him at a certain level. He was an awesome role player. Right. Like, you know. But although if Bridges keeps playing, like, he's two different guys, regular season playoffs. He's like, during the regular season, it's like, you five firsts on that? Are you out of your mind? He's a nice 3 and D guy. But that's it. halfway through the Atlanta series it seemed like a catastrophe every playoffs he's like this though like his defense is unbelievable he's hitting shots he was great on Maxie

27:48Bill Simmons:I love how he figured out how to play with Brunson and Towns in the playoffs for some reason it clicked like he's just popping in the right spots because they changed the way they use Towns really that's the whole thing we gotta talk about that finals we're gonna take one break and hit the finals alright the 2026 NBA Finals is here New York, San Antonio. We're going to make some picks. I am going to probably share picks for at least a few of the games on my Twitter feed from FanDuel Sportsbook. For the series, though, since we're doing this on a Tuesday, I like the Spurs to win the series. I like the Spurs in six, which is five to one odds, but I think the Spurs would be my series pick as well.

28:31Bill Simmons:I wouldn't mess with the... Wembediyama is almost definitely the finals MVP. you're just better off taking the Spurs money line at that point. So game to game, I would definitely take San Antonio in game one, and then we'll see how it goes. Usually home team wins game one. Game two becomes a little bit of a tester out slugfest. When I bet, I bet with FanDuel. It's a brand I trust. Easy to build NBA bets on FanDuel as well and find futures, all kinds of things you want to do. You're getting great odds, payouts in your parlays, boosts every day. get your winnings instantly. FanDuel, play your game.

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31:31Bill Simmons:It's a new day and a new stay. Book now at HolidayInn.com today. Who are you picking for the finals? Just close to taking the Knicks. Hey, check a lot of boxes for the Nobody Believes in Us pick.

31:46Max Kellerman:they're like maybe one guy short on the bench right now, but it doesn't.

31:50Bill Simmons:I wish, we don't know the Robinson situation.

31:53Max Kellerman:That's the whole thing. He's really their sixth man.

31:56Bill Simmons:He doesn't, but he's really. You've seven guys. Yeah. Including Robinson. Yeah. Shamit and him off the bench. McBride, we'll see. We'll see what McBride looks like again. I know, but we'll see what he looks like against San Antonio. Yeah. But Robinson you need for, because you need fouls and.

32:14Max Kellerman:He's also a great playoff performer. He really is a great... Defensive guys, you don't always think of like that, but watch him play in the playoffs, you go, championship player. I want him on my team.

32:25Bill Simmons:He's Wemby kryptonite, too, because Zach and I talked about this a little on Saturday. The way to kind of hit... And Hartenstein did a little bit in the last series, but when Wemby's playing that box-in-one zone, whatever the fuck he's doing, and he's, especially with Brunson, where they'll have guys on Brunson, and then Wemby kind of shifting over, and you leave the back of the basket open. And that's like Mitch's specialty. It's like, you're not going to box me out. I'm just going to get 10 offensive rebounds. And that was what OKC, anytime they felt like they had momentum, it was on the offensive board.

32:56Bill Simmons:So they need Mitch for that for anything. Knicks are good on the offensive glass. Yeah. OG would be the other one. Knicks seem like they're healthy, except for Robinson. That's a huge part of it, too, by the way.

33:08Max Kellerman:That's a huge part of it. Like health this time of year, they happen to be very healthy right now. Well, not playing basketball always helps. No question. You just like get in the nine days off. And as the road team, if you have a long layoff, I hate to have home court because you could give it up game one before you get that out of your system, you know, the rust gone. But if you're on the road, so what you lose game one. Now you're rested. You have a good shot at splitting on the road and taking home court. So it's like kind of working out in their favor. And they beat them in the cup on a neutral site.

33:42Max Kellerman:They came a possession away from beating them in San Antonio. Right. They have a way of playing the Spurs.

33:48Bill Simmons:The teams are even.

33:49Max Kellerman:They're even because the Knicks slow it up. And when they have their version of the death lineup on the floor, they can hit shots late in the clock. So they're slowing up the pace and scoring late in the clock. And that kind of stymies the Spurs offense, I think.

34:05Bill Simmons:Here's what I'm going to pick the Spurs. Here's what I think really hurts the Knicks in this series is all the layoffs between the games. Because they have this 2-2-1-1-1 schedule and they've spaced stuff out. And I think that's really helpful to Wemby. 100%. I felt like in the OKC series, it was a constant battle of, you know, there were just games where he just seemed like he was dead.

34:28Max Kellerman:Know why they won the series? Because they could play him 28 minutes in game six. Right. If he had to play 34, 38 minutes in game six, they may have lost.

34:37Bill Simmons:That double overtime game in game one, which just wreaked havoc on both rosters, but you could really feel it. I just think, especially after seeing him in person a couple of times, and you've seen him in person too, right? It's just, he's not really meant to run up and down a basketball court. That's not what God created a seven foot seven guy to do is just run up and down on a wooden floor like that. And he does it and he's about as graceful as you can. Like him and Kareem are the two tall guys I've ever seen who seem graceful as they went up and down. But he starts throwing 42, 43 minutes. All the stuff he has to do defensively.

35:13Bill Simmons:All the hard rolls they do with him to kind of create three-point shot. And it's just... Even the way he closes out.

35:19Max Kellerman:Like, he'll close out. The play is lost. Like, the guy's going to hit the shot. But just because Wemby gives the effort to close out and put his hand up, I think they're shooting... I'd love to know what the numbers are. I'll bet you shooting percentages get cut in half. You have a guy shooting a three. Wemby's just... He's not in position. He's not going to get there in time. but just the fact that he can kind of blot out the sun like you can't see the basket at the last second guys who you expect to hit the shot don't hit the shot there was a great

35:47Bill Simmons:clip that somebody took a chat in game six where in the same possession he tried to challenge Wemby twice and just kind of bailed on it the second time I was like okay like he was gonna take a three from the corner and part of the problem with Chet in that series was his he's got one of those long developing jumpers and Wemby was always able to come out and challenge it. So then he decided, all right, I'm going to take him off the dribble. And he beat him off the dribble, did a spin move. And it's like, oh, he's going to block this. And he just kind of bailed.

36:14Max Kellerman:And that's seven foot one. He's not used to be like he's, you know, it's like, why can't a lefty hit a lefty? Cause they never see the lefties. Right. When does Chet see a guy who's him, but three, four inches taller? And you got to credit Wemby. I love this about Wemby. When he threw that elbow. Exactly. If a guy's hitting you low and the ref doesn't do anything about it, hit him low back do it harder right he'll get the message Wemby swung that elbow and it changed a little bit the way they were playing him right oh excuse me and the elbow helped and then when he

36:46Bill Simmons:ordered his team and he ordered the code red yep code red he did it was a little fuck you from

36:52Max Kellerman:Wemby which you want him on that line yeah so like yeah like can't handle the truth he and he has this thing in him where he looks at everyone's like well it's come from the the kids and and check got MVP of this tournament. Wemby sees Chet. He sees the team he's on. He knows, that's my guy. That's my rival. And he let him know at every chance, I own you. To the point where Chet started believing it, right? Like everyone's writing Chet off now, but I don't know, he could learn from this. Like he could actually grow from it, but he got his heart, like Wemby took his heart and everyone, the whole world saw it, right?

37:33So he did that intentionally.

37:35Max Kellerman:He knew, like, that's my guy. I got to make sure he knows he doesn't have a shot.

37:39Bill Simmons:We talked about it on Saturday night about the Drexler Jordan. That was a little like that, too, where Jordan, you know, the people were like, these guys, who's better? And that was a real thing that was happening for about a week. And then Jordan was just like, all right, I've had enough of this.

37:56Max Kellerman:He took it personally.

37:57Bill Simmons:Yeah, so the reason I'm picking, all due respect to the Knicks, and they do check a lot of my nobody believes in us. The Robinson thing worries me. I do think they have a really good team to play the Knicks. Like if you were creating a team to kind of stop Brunson, especially in the fourth quarter, you would say you want these defensive guards and swings that could switch combined with this big tall guy in the back to challenge all like the 12 to 15 footer stuff. I just think it's a bad matchup. So the way for the Knicks to beat them obviously is hope Wemby wears down. Hope the Spurs three-point shooting isn't there.

38:35Bill Simmons:Hope the crowd is going to come through in your home games. And then just get an awesome OG Bridges combo.

38:43Max Kellerman:If Josh Hart is hitting from outside, Knicks are hard to beat.

38:48Bill Simmons:But you know that's going to happen in one of the games. Josh Hart will have his one in the series. How many times is it going to happen? And then can you get the offensive rebounds? I see the path for it. I just think this is a generational thing now. and I'm not going against it. And I felt the whole year, I was like, are the Spurs, really since December, are they the 90 Bulls or the 91 Bulls? And I think they're telling us they're the 91 Bulls.

39:11Max Kellerman:Well, first of all, the 90 Bulls were the best team in basketball. Pittman got a migraine in Game 7. Yeah. Right, like, you know, otherwise they probably, everyone's like, oh, Jordan had to win. No, he didn't. He needed one other All-Star with him. He didn't. And then in Game 7, he didn't have him. You can't beat the champs by yourself.

39:27Bill Simmons:But they weren't dominant in the playoffs that year. No, you're right. They took a jump.

39:31Max Kellerman:Next year, they fucking destroyed everybody. But that was also baby Pippen. Like, Pippen made his first All-Star game. But he wasn't what he would be the next year. He became into his prime, right? 100%. I would say that I agree with you 100 % about your analysis of why the Spurs would win. What got me thinking the Spurs, like, I said all season, but from like the middle of the season, I said the Spurs are the best team in basketball. They're going to win the championship. But by the time the Knicks were finished playing them the third time, I thought, if the Knicks come out of the East, they would have like a 40 % shot of beating the Spurs.

40:05Max Kellerman:I think 40 % is the right number. For what you identified, which is, and it occurred to me in game seven, actually, really the number one name is Castle. Castle and Harper are puppies. And they're even like out in front of themselves like a puppy gets out in front of himself. But like they're purebred puppies. Like these guys are already dogs, right? They're already a problem. They don't even know what they're doing yet. They're overly exuberant on defense. They can wind up in foul trouble because of how they're bumping around out there. But because of Castle's size and his tenacity, it's like you kind of don't want that overgrown, you know, eager puppy at his size on these smaller Knicks players.

40:51You know, like Brunson.

40:53Max Kellerman:They could have him.

40:53Bill Simmons:They could have us put Champagny on him. And they're big and strong.

40:56Max Kellerman:They could have Vassell, who's taller. They're also like big, strong guys like Brunson. Yes, he's he's strong, but he's short. Mikael Bridges is not built like those other guys. It's like there's a there's a lot of kind of size and strength and and like youthful exuberance on the on the perimeter defender types on the Spurs that I think are a bad matchup for the Knicks.

41:18Bill Simmons:we talked about on Saturday night mentioned on the podcast I did with Zach we were like what is Castle I don't even know what he who is who's the Castle doppelganger so a bunch of people sent emails these were the candidates this is what got sent to me guard Kawhi yeah Kawhi more defensive Dwayne Wade more explosive Drew Holiday that's a good one

41:45Max Kellerman:springier Artest ooh that's I hadn't even thought of Artest. That's a good one. Yeah, early Artest. But Artest could shoot for his time better than Castle can shoot for, like, I don't know what the league averages are off the top of my head, but Artest was a better shooter in his day than Castle is in his. Guard Jimmy Butler. Another good one.

42:06Bill Simmons:Latrell Sprewell. Didn't really see that one, but it made me think.

42:10Max Kellerman:Well, Spree was a good defender. He was energetic. Yeah. But he was, and I guess I see that because he was also athletic leaper guy who didn't shoot it especially well. But I just get the feeling like Castle's going to be a shooter, a good enough shooter when it's all said and done. Better offense, Marcus Smart, and Heinz Ward.

42:32Bill Simmons:Those were all the comparisons I got from all these various... Like a basketball player. Just like how Heinz Ward was just like... He's a football player. I'm a good athlete. I'm physical. I can do everything. He's not just a receiver. He's a football player. I can block.

42:43Max Kellerman:I can do in traffic. I like, who did you say who was second to last? Marcus Smart. That's interesting. If Smart were bigger and...

42:53Bill Simmons:I think he's a better offensive player and a better athlete than Marcus Smart was. But I like... I do too. The way younger Marcus Smart, how balls to the wall he was all the time, which I think Castle has. Also, one of the things I love about Castle and the Spurs team in general is they don't seem to wear mistakes or bad shooting or get psyched out. Or value possessions.

43:14Max Kellerman:They just kind of go. Yeah, it's true.

43:16Bill Simmons:Short memories. Yeah, when you're talking about like puppies, purebred puppies, like they're just kind of running around and they don't really carry their past with them.

43:25Max Kellerman:And it's like, that's why you say are they 90 or 91 bulls. And the way I interpret that is, is that short memory and is that going to go too much on the side of not valuing the possessions in crunch time because they just go? Yeah. Or is that actually good for them because they don't worry about it? And if they don't score on that possession or they turn the ball live turnover and it leads to two or three points, they're fine. It's gone and they're going to do it again. And because they're so aggressive, sometimes it's going to work. The other reason I think I'm taking the Spurs, and I don't feel great about it, but the competition in the East,

44:05Bill Simmons:it has to be said. They fall 2-1 Atlanta. They change their offense. I love the way they played. To me, they looked like the 2014 Spurs crossed with whatever Brunson's doing. But that Atlanta team, when you look back, it's a pretty brutal team. They had like five guys that were playable. They had one center. Couldn't really rebound. McCollum died as the series went along. They had no kind of guy who could calm the runs.

44:34Max Kellerman:They won two games by a point, though.

44:35Bill Simmons:Yeah, and they probably should have gotten swept. They play Philly the next round. Embiid put one week of the season and he was done. Now all you do is shut down Maxie and you're good. And then that Cleveland team, they're just a mess. Yes. That game one loss was just one of the most egregious, blown... You knew it was a sweep after that. When you lose like that, it's a sweep. The coaching combined with them not running back and they just rolled over. So you go from that and meanwhile here are the Spurs. who are just going through this gauntlet. Even Portland was like, you know, they probably would have been like a five or a six seed in the East.

45:18Max Kellerman:They're a tough team, and they showed up.

45:20Bill Simmons:Yeah, and I don't know, that OKC team they beat, I just, I take that seriously. I thought OKC was an incredible team missing one of their best guys. No Jalen Williams, really.

45:29Max Kellerman:Yeah, missing one of their best guys. Missing their second best player. Yeah. That's a lot. It's a lot to miss your second best player. Like if, if this, well, the Spurs don't, if the Spurs didn't have the Aaron Fox, they'd have lost. Right. Like the live ball turnovers were killing them.

45:44Bill Simmons:But that's the thing. So the Spurs didn't have Fox for a couple of games and then he didn't seem right really until game seven. And then the Harper thing, Harper in the middle of the series is just a useless and then kind of came back as it went along. But, um, but so, so I think the Spurs of 91 bulls, so I'm, I'm going Spurs in five.

46:02Max Kellerman:The thing about the Knicks is, I think it's going to be a long series. I do think that. But the thing about the Knicks is they're not beating these teams by 10 or 12 points. I get it. You're feeding everybody into a wood chipper, right? They are destroying teams. They have two losses, each by a point. And they're beating the brakes off of everyone. And the team that they are not compared to enough is the 2016, they did lose in the finals, Warriors. they have a death lineup. Yeah. Except it's a better shooter. They don't have the two greatest shooters of all time in the death lineup, right? When Josh Hart is hitting his shots, that's why I say if you want to look at a few key things, if Josh Hart is hot more often than he's cold in this series, the Knicks are virtually impossible to beat because everyone, like all five guys are killing you at that point.

46:59Max Kellerman:Right. How do you guard that? especially with the offense running through towns, who's like not only the best shooting big ever, maybe, but he's also like kind of Jokic in a way that I didn't understand, right? I'm not saying he's as good as Jokic. I'm saying he's doing some of that stuff.

47:15Bill Simmons:It was impressive.

47:16Max Kellerman:So like, I think that's really what it comes down to. If Josh Hart is hot in this series, this is going seven games and the Knicks might win.

47:24Bill Simmons:You're probably right. I'm going to amend to Knicks in six. To the Spurs in six. I'm sorry, Spurs in six. Freudian slip. I'm going to amend to Spurs in six because you're right. I forgot to factor in the one Josh Hart game. That's it. And if there could be two or three. Five for seven from three or something stupid. So correct score, Spurs in six is five to one. That also sets up for the devastating everyone at MSG trying to send the series to a seventh game and just the all-time gut punch of whatever. So what did you have, Knicks in six or seven?

47:57Max Kellerman:If the Knicks win, it'll be a seven-game series, I think. But by the way, what you said about Wemby is the thing about him, because he's so big, so everything's magnified, you can see all the detail, is it's very apparent when he's fatigued, right? He looks uncoordinated all of a sudden. He's like the most coordinated big guy you've ever seen in your life. First of all, you've never seen a guy that tall, right? But he's so coordinated at that size. and when he is fatigued, you can see, oh, where'd the coordination go? You know, even on lobs and stuff, he can't do it. He starts getting a little like,

48:31Bill Simmons:almost like a little kid where little kids start falling down and slipping. Right, and you know, it's time for a nap. Yeah, yeah.

48:35Max Kellerman:But the guy's physiology is just like, this is unexplored territory and he is doing everything in his power to give himself the best possible shot. But that schedule where there are essentially no travel days was brutal in the Western Conference finals for him. And more rest is good for him.

48:52Bill Simmons:It's also why, good for Wemby. It's also why guys like LeBron, as they hit their late 30s, it just becomes impossible to put together four straight rounds to win a title.

49:03Max Kellerman:Definitely on the defensive end.

49:04Bill Simmons:You have to have younger players. And that's been the thing over and over again that we've seen this decade is the combination of how the regular season got much harder. It became harder just for guys to carry big minutes. But then you get into that every other day in the third round. Brutal. You have to have the younger dudes for that. so you have Knicks and seven, that would be eight to one. Let's talk about, um,

49:28Max Kellerman:I have not yet made my pick at that. I do think like, I,

49:31Bill Simmons:I think to make it on game over with Rich Paul.

49:33Max Kellerman:I think I will make it on game over. Do it. Do it. I would say that it's the, if I had to handicap it, I think it's a 60, 40 type series favoring the Spurs, but 40 is a pretty damn good shot for the Knicks. And I have to think if I like their chances.

49:48Bill Simmons:I, so I bet on the Spurs for, I had the Spurs before the series, and before uh after game five i did a hedge on okc for game six because i thought the harper fox thing i just didn't think those guys were there and of course san antonio won then i doubled down and bet on san antonio game seven smart um just because of the wimby piece and i think ultimately like i was thinking about i was like i just think wimby's the best player in the league now and i don't want to go against him in a game seven i've been saying this since like the all-star break yeah but you still you have to do it in the playoffs it's a different level you got to see like the ebb and flow of the games the fatigue the how do you handle foul trouble how do you handle when the handle when the refs aren't giving you calls but you know what he has but now i think he's now i think he's there he's tasted it that okc thing was such a good seasoning for this finals it look

50:42Max Kellerman:it's a hunch until you see him do it right my hunch was he's the best player in the league but you're right you have to see him do it in this circumstance but the thing about wendy that i love that like i thought i thought middle of the season he's better than yokich right he's better than sga i don't think sga is in the conversation with yokich and wemby but he's better than yokich is there's a floor to wemby's game because of the defense right he can't really have a bad game ever he's such a defensive presence so when his offense is clicking it's like well he he he might he's a very good chance if he stays healthy it's right if he hits a couple threes and a couple

51:17Bill Simmons:turnarounds and get some fouls.

51:19Max Kellerman:That's all it takes. But there's a good chance he winds up the greatest player of all time. But health is going to be a big thing just because we've never seen a guy this size before, right? And the other thing about Jokic, Bill, is you're down two possessions in the playoffs. Your season's on the line. There's like two minutes left. Okay, overcome it, right? And Jamal Murray was taken out of the series, who's normally a very clutch player, because you have a six-foot-eight wing defensive specialist who's doing an unbelievable job on him. So now you have Gobert, who's also a great defensive player on Jokic.

51:52Max Kellerman:And it's like, okay, Jokic, do it though. It's two possessions. Can you make up two possessions in two minutes? We've seen this from super great players throughout history. And Rich and I play a game nowadays on the show where it's like, does this player need to win or does he love the game? So for example, or love to play, need to win, love to play. For example, the player that best epitomizes needing to win and loving to play on the highest level possible is Magic Johnson. That dude, like Larry Bird, needed to win more than he loved to play. Same thing with Michael Jordan, right? There are other guys who love to play more than they need to win.

52:33Max Kellerman:For example, Kevin Durant, right? Clearly loves to play. Does he need to win? It doesn't seem that way, right? Or he would really, people who put him above Bird and they should not, it's because of that. He doesn't need to win like that.

52:47Bill Simmons:this was the LeBron issue for years

52:49Max Kellerman:yes he loved to play more than he needed I think LeBron does need to win but not as much 2011 finals then he flipped it Jokic I don't know if he's a basketball genius I don't know if he loves to play or he needs to win I don't know if he has either I know Wemby has both Jokic ripped through everybody in 23 he's got to get credit for that he's among the greatest players

53:12Bill Simmons:I'm giving him loves to play I think you guys are wrong does he yeah i think he does he seems so pissed off at the press conference he just wants to go

53:19Max Kellerman:right and he's from fucking serbia he is there's listen his basketball brain could be like studied it's ridiculous he's he's lebron james larry bird magic johnson i'd move him more toward

53:31Bill Simmons:a problem that was a problem for shaq is it fun to be you when you play shaq was you know i never i'd shaq was immensely frustrating for me because i never felt like he was in shape the way he should have been. I never understood the free throws. It always felt like there was more there, but he still ended up being one of the best 15 ever.

53:51Max Kellerman:Yeah. Do the Rick Barry. Come on. Like do the grandfather.

53:53Bill Simmons:Just figure it out. But I also think it would have been incredibly unfun to be Shaq for eight months a year playing basketball when everybody's like, we can't stop you. So we're allowed to do X, Y, and Z. The refs are going to be like, yeah, this isn't fair. Do what you need to do. Bang him in the back, pull his shoulders down. and I honestly think with Jokic it's becoming a little similar where the way he's defended Wemby we're starting to see it like some of the stuff OKC was doing against him I just don't think is legal I don't you should be able to you should be able to run to your spot without somebody like pushing back like they have a blocking sled it's because he's 7 '7 they let it go

54:33Max Kellerman:I've had a big problem with the officiating all series I feel like they officiated it straight up and down at San Antonio and gave the thunder the whistles in OKC. I agree. And like, it is so, it's already, there's already a rule on the books about, it's a non-onsportsman-like tech if you flop. Come on, ref, everyone can see it on TV in real time. That SGA sideways three? 90 % accuracy, you know. Maybe not every time, but like, and then go review it afterwards. And where did I, someone, maybe you said this, someone said, maybe Zach said it. I had a flopping, flopping points. That's what I want.

55:12Max Kellerman:That you review it after. Oh yeah, you did. But I really think just, it's a tech, it should, two of them and you should be suspended a game. Or like a yellow card.

55:21Bill Simmons:Yeah. Like yellow card and soccer.

55:22Max Kellerman:Just like, I didn't like what you did there. Yellow card. Yeah. One more of those and you're out. Right. Like, and then it would just stop and the product would get better. And also you're right. Any kind of a guy who's seen as having an unstoppable physical advantage like Shaq or like, um, I'm sure this happened to Wilt, but I didn't see it. Uh, LeBron.

55:42Bill Simmons:It 100 % happened to Wilt who started, that's when he developed that awful turnaround he had. He'd have this little spin cause he didn't want to get fouled and he was tired of getting hit.

55:51Max Kellerman:By the way, with Kareem, they were just like, uh, no, you can't dunk. Like, right. Yeah. No. And so he comes up.

55:58Bill Simmons:Kareem would be interesting now because if you're allowed to do this stuff in the seventies and eighties that we can do now with, shoving a guy before he can get to his spot. McHale would have been in trouble. Hakeem would have been in trouble. It's just, it's this new thing that I don't really know why they've allowed it the way they've allowed it. I hate it.

56:14Max Kellerman:And it seems so fit. So like, so to legislate out tanking is difficult. And I don't know, they're trying to address it. I don't know if they did successfully. We'll see empirically whether it works or not, or it helps. But this is like, there's a problem. The fans don't like what's happening. There is a, there are like a million easy solutions and they just refuse to do them.

56:36Bill Simmons:Right. All right. The real reason you're here is coming up after this break. This episode is brought to you by New Era. All right. If you love the 90s NBA, listen up. New Era just dropped the Hardwood Classics 90s collection and it's stacked. It pays respect to the golden era of basketball with iconic teams like the Bulls, Rockets, Spurs, Suns, and Pistons. Obviously, my favorite is the Celtics. I was really jealous of the 90s Suns hats, jerseys, shirts, everything, but Celtics is my team. Plus, 90s all-star game caps, complete with host team side patches for that authentic throwback feel. Available in a wide range of fitted and adjustable styles.

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58:57Bill Simmons:We're going to talk about the 2000s today. Some amazing players, unforgettable teams, and logos aging quite nicely a couple of decades later. I really love those Steve Nash Suns teams, especially as the years passed when the league was getting very physical. Not as much fun to watch game to game, and yet the Suns were playing a lot like some of the style that we have now, fast-breaking, freewheeling, unselfish. so when I think about 2000 I think about them I think about the 2008 Celtics winning the title obviously the Pistons shocking the Lakers and then those three straight Lakers ones in a row three titles that I still have trouble swallowing because I don't like the Lakers but the best team that whole decade was the 2001 Lakers which almost swept the playoffs that came within an Allen Iverson overtime loss of of actually sweeping the finals so anyway that was quite an era.

59:55Bill Simmons:Relive vintage logos and timeless icons from that era or any other era with the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 50-950 or adjustables like the 940 a frame and 970 and some great hardwood classics apparel too. Visit neweracap.com to shop now and use one-time code RINGER for 20 % off your first order. All right, Max, it's education time. Okay. We need to have a nice big pitcher of settle down juice for everybody.

1:00:40Max Kellerman:Head in the fridge. It's nice and cold. It just happened. This is the moment we became old, right? Like it just happened.

1:00:47Bill Simmons:But we used to do this when we were younger and we were kids where you just think what you're seeing recently has to be the greatest thing that ever happened. A pitcher of settle down juice. A big pitcher of settle down juice. Did this happen in your house?

1:00:58Max Kellerman:was this an expression in your house? Bill, if you don't pipe down, you're going to have a big picture,

1:01:06Bill Simmons:big helping glass with ice cubes. Jalen Brunson, there's two separate things happening right now. There's two paths for him. One is New York immortality. And then the other is where do you rank in the greatest Knicks? He's not the greatest Knick yet just because they made the finals. Of course. I don't think people, there's people out there that are like, he's the greatest Knick. They made the finals. It has to. So I want to go through some of the history of the actual greatest Knicks, but let's move into the New York side. Who is?

1:01:38Max Kellerman:Can we establish a criteria for greatness before we do this?

1:01:42Bill Simmons:Yeah, I'm ready to do whatever you want.

1:01:44Max Kellerman:I want to just establish a criteria for greatness. Well, do you want to do the New York side first

1:01:48Bill Simmons:or the Knicks side first?

1:01:50Max Kellerman:Any way you want, but let's establish what we're, I think part of the problem is when kids, it's not just recency bias or, you know, you give a guy a book and he reads the book. It's the only book he ever read. That's everything he knows. Right. Like, you know, it's something, um, there's a conflation between better and greater, right. And, and kids correctly, intuitively understand everyone now is better than everyone before that is kids. You're right about that. Everyone now is better, just about, more or less, than everyone before.

1:02:25Bill Simmons:It's the car's analogy. If I had a 2026 Porsche, it would drive better than a 1982 Porsche.

1:02:32Max Kellerman:Because you built that new platform on what came before. You didn't just invent it from whole cloth. You saw it. You improved. You improved. You improved. Okay. In the one sport that can be objectively measured, track and field, you can put a stopwatch on Jesse Owens and the stopwatch on the 10th best sprinter in the world today and know objectively that Jesse Owens is not as good as the 10th best sprinter.

1:02:54Bill Simmons:But that's, I don't think that's how, this is why I wrote my book. I don't think that's how you can think about it. I think you have to measure greatness by how you compare it to everybody you were going against.

1:03:03Max Kellerman:Correct, because I'm talking about better. Yeah. And the conflation is between better and greater. The reason it sounds ridiculous to say the 10th best sprinter in the world, whose name you don't know, is better than Jesse Owens is because, yeah, duh, no kidding. That's not what we're talking about. Does boxing work this way, though? Yes, but there are influences in boxing, for example, the number of fights and stuff like that and the number of rounds and the number of participants in this country that select it out for different characteristics once upon a time than it does nowadays. You need it to be tougher.

1:03:39Max Kellerman:You need it to be more resistant to cuts. You need it to have a better chin. You need it to, you know, like, there's 15 round fights and yeah. But the, but the point is that we are talking about greater everybody. We're talking about how you did against your contemporaries. Now, does it matter if you're playing in a league with eight to 12 teams as Bill Russell did? Do you discount him? Yes, you do. But then the, do you discount Babe Ruth? I disagree on the eight to 12. But, but how much of a discount, even when you discount Babe Ruth gets a real discount because he was not

1:04:10Bill Simmons:playing against any minorities basically. And he was, And he was a black player on top of it. Or Latin American players, anybody.

1:04:17Max Kellerman:He played against nobody other than whites. But no one who ever lived in any league ever dominated that league nearly to the extent that Ruth dominated his league. So even with the discount, he comes out number one. I think with Bill Russell's discount, he probably comes out four, something like that. I would say Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Bill Russell. If you want to argue Bill Russell's Kareem.

1:04:40Bill Simmons:It has to be those four in whatever order you want, but those have to be the first four. I think Jordan has to be one

1:04:44Max Kellerman:and then you can argue the next. I have Jordan one as well. But that, okay, so that gets, so first of all, we're talking about great or not better. Let's establish that first. And we're talking about, you do take discounts on the Babe Ruths and the Bill Russells. The question is after the discount, where is their greatness? Sometimes it's still number one, sometimes it's no longer. Now the next thing. Are we mostly valuing career or mostly valuing peak? When I got Bill James' historical baseball abstract volume two as a bar mitzvah present when I was 13 years old. Yeah. It taught me comparative analysis really in a new way.

1:05:19Max Kellerman:And, and the thing I loved he did is he separated it into two lists, peak versus career, right? Sandy Koufax's peak or Nolan Ryan's career. How do you compare Koufax and Ryan? If you just weigh their value, Nolan Ryan did a lot more. Is that really what we mean though? Or are we talking about as long as they sustain their peak for a reasonable amount of time. Peak. I favor peak. I think that's what we're really talking about. I had when I made the Earl Monroe

1:05:44Bill Simmons:trying to figure out where he ranked. Yeah. I called it the Bill Walton corollary. If a guy peaked for just two or three years as a truly great player, that's more appealing than someone who never peaked at all. That's the difference of Bernard King versus Ewing.

1:05:59Max Kellerman:Okay, agreed. Then the question is, so we both value peak over career, right?

1:06:05Bill Simmons:So Bill Walton peaks for a year and a half and then as the sixth man on the 86 Celtics. And that's it. I still had him in the top 35 of my book. Because at his best year, he was the best guy in the league and took it to Kareem.

1:06:18Max Kellerman:I had a, this is not exactly the same thing, but I had a producer, John Crystal at HBO. We talked about Roy Jones in his prime. And he said, I know what I saw, right? Like you watch Bill Walton. I know what I saw.

1:06:31Bill Simmons:What was that, the Tony fight? What was that, 94?

1:06:33Max Kellerman:Yeah. And he beat him with one hand. No, he beat Hopkins with one hand. He beat Tony with both hands. But so, so. Well, that's Aaron Pryor too. Aaron Pryor's peak was absurd. So this is the LeBron Jordan argument. If you just weigh their win totals, right? Their win shares. LeBron played twice as long. I don't think that's what we're talking about. At least it's not what I'm talking about.

1:06:54Bill Simmons:A good question is, okay, you can have one guy who played for 20 years. Or you could have another guy who played for 13. but the 13 years and the peak of the 13 years was better than the 20. What would you rather want if you were starting a franchise?

1:07:11Max Kellerman:What kind of fan are you? Are you the kind of guy who wants to be a powerhouse team for 20 years with no championships? Or would you like to maybe not be a powerhouse team for 20 years, but you wind up with three, four championships? I'll take the championships.

1:07:25Bill Simmons:Like Bird was, Bird came in the league in October 79. and for the next nine years was either the best or the second best player in the league every single year and then was the best player three years in a row you were always in the finals or near the finals with him that's basically what Jokic is doing now

1:07:43Max Kellerman:No one really was and no one really because their styles weren't the same he more than anyone was the original Michael Jordan right because their styles are so different and also racial obvious like there are differences in the style of the play one's a white guy one's a black guy the whole thing and Berg was compared to Magic and Dr. J seemed to be the guy who Jordan was the evolution of. No. There was Larry Bird who ran shit and then there was Michael Jordan who ran shit. Like that's...

1:08:13Bill Simmons:And honestly, I think Wemby's going to do that too. It seems to me that that's the case. I just feel like he's, especially when you think this is probably the worst he's going to be over the next seven years unless he gets injured. It just feels like the way... When you're impacting every part of a game, that's kind of the last level. I do feel like LeBron got there when he was on Miami.

1:08:32Max Kellerman:No doubt. Unquestionably. The closest I've ever seen in terms of value of a player to a prime Michael Jordan, like the one who made me think, hmm, that's getting close, was years two and three in Miami.

1:08:45Bill Simmons:The 20s, I really, I've talked about this before. I love the 27-game winning streak. In a way, I like that more than either title for them.

1:08:55Max Kellerman:Because they started slow?

1:08:57Bill Simmons:I just thought it was such a cool streak because it was just so atypical. It was in the middle of the season. It wasn't like the Warriors had that 24-0 or whatever they had to start. I think when you start a season with continuity, it's a little easier. When it's just the middle of the season, when you're just ripping off wins and you get a bullseye in your head around 16 and you can't rest anyone and it's the rhythm of the schedule, you're playing four and five nights. I don't think we're ever going to see that again.

1:09:24Max Kellerman:That was LeBron defending. defending, not just switching on, defending all five positions. You could put LeBron on all five positions on the defense event. And shooting 60%. He knew exactly where his spots were on the floor. He's a basketball genius. He was, but like, that's an unsustainable style of play for your whole career, I think, right? I think. But you could do that for two or three years.

1:09:47Bill Simmons:I had this thing, the wine bottle team, where it's like, pick a greatest team, but you have to pick the vintage year of what bottle of wine you'd want to order from that player's career, 2013 is the LeBron year. Clearly. You could put that version of him on any team with any teammates and he would just be the most additive player possible.

1:10:07Max Kellerman:Right. No player ever could take a lower level group of guys farther than that LeBron James.

1:10:15Bill Simmons:Or fit in with a better group.

1:10:16Max Kellerman:To me, it's like... With other all-stars.

1:10:19Bill Simmons:Because you always think about who are the best guys you could just put together. And you kind of have to have LeBron, Bird, Magic, and Jordan on that foursome and then just pick the fifth?

1:10:29Max Kellerman:I love Magic Johnson. I love Magic Johnson. You would just worry about the defense? No. The shooting, because to play in any era...

1:10:39Bill Simmons:I know, but all the shooting better. The shooting would get better. I would put LeBron at point.

1:10:41Max Kellerman:I'd have LeBron run the point, Jordan at the two. I'd probably wind up putting Bird at the four and Hakeem at the five. And then maybe KD at the three, because he doesn't need to really touch. He just kind of gets in the flow. He can defend. He can tallies you know if i'm trying to win yeah duncan would be in the conversation for me right duncan

1:10:59Bill Simmons:or but not over bird because i want the shooting no but if you just gave me duncan bird lebron

1:11:05Max Kellerman:jordan and magic i'm pretty confident the thing about duncan is hakeem needs the ball a little more number one and duncan for more of his career was a better pastor hakeem wasn't a good pastor till later the problem with hakeem is because i've done this before and every time i take duncan someone's like Hakeem and I'm thinking yeah he just made my team a little bit better he's just like by the time Hakeem if we're talking prime not just career yeah the two way stuff with him was nuts

1:11:32Bill Simmons:I just feel like the 03 Duncan gets slipped on like he basically beats the Lakers by himself he was unbelievable he was you know what Jim Lampley

1:11:40Max Kellerman:told me just crushing everybody that if you want to know who Bill Russell was he's Duncan but not as good a shooter and I never I never saw Russell play or will play so I was like oh okay I get it that's pretty damn good

1:11:55Bill Simmons:well that's another thing with Wemby because I think Duncan had it everyone said Curry had it and it feels like feels like Wemby has it too of this culture they create like the leadership and I always called it with Duncan it was always the arms around the shoulders there's certain leaders where they're just Wemby does it too they're constantly touching their teammates and they're just very inclusive and they're like den mothers almost and he has that already at age 22 All right.

1:12:22Max Kellerman:He's a serial killer. You realize that, right? No one's this perfect. No one, like, like.

1:12:26Bill Simmons:No, but when you say he's a serial killer, like, he kind of is as a competitor. I do think he has that side of, like, I think he wants to destroy everybody. Look what he did to Chet.

1:12:36Max Kellerman:Yeah. But I mean, like, Wemby is so perfect in terms of what he's doing, how he's preparing himself, how he's going after it, how he's using his talents, the whole thing, that it's like there must be something really wrong with this guy that I don't know about yet because he's perfect.

1:12:52Bill Simmons:Well, when was the last time you saw somebody celebrate like he did after they won game seven where you felt like it was completely authentic? Jordan after he won the first championship, maybe? Right. Because this is one of the things that's been terrible with tennis. And I don't know who started. Maybe it was Agassi, but it was like you win and then you just sink to the ground. You have to do that whole thing. And now it's like this whole performative thing and you never... Because people are self-conscious. like everyone even that's not self-conscious at all i don't feel like he's not he knows

1:13:24Max Kellerman:like he yeah he's he's there's nothing not to love about this guy that's why i'm suspicious

1:13:29Bill Simmons:no one's this perfect okay so greatest next so we've established the peak versus um sustained career but we're also we about the greatness has to be when you're comparing to the other people

1:13:41Max Kellerman:in your era but but we should take a slight discount if you get past a certain like i'd say modern NBA starts obviously absorption of the ABA team's three-point shot, right? So you want to say 79-80, you want to say 76-70, you could pick. I'd say 79-80 is the start of the modern era.

1:13:59Bill Simmons:That's fair, but I had when I did my book, which was 09, did the paperback in 2010, Willis was the highest Nick I had at number 30. I now have him 38. But Willis was two-time finals MVP, 70 MVP. went... He was two-time finals MVP, but... But Frazier should have been the 71. It's fine. One of the things I value with him, his prime is right against all these great centers. He's against Kareem coming in the league. He's against Wilt. And he's going head-to-head with all these dudes for a couple years there.

1:14:37Max Kellerman:I'm not saying that he's like this player. I'm saying the position he occupies and the way history has recorded him unfairly in terms of where he's ranked is similar to Moses Malone. Moses Malone. Yeah, Moses is higher. Right, but Moses Malone was the best. Like, we talk about Larry Bird, how amazing he was in the very beginning. Best player in the game was not Kareem or Larry Bird.

1:15:01Bill Simmons:For like five years, Moses is the best guy. 79, 83. At least two or three.

1:15:05Max Kellerman:He's among the two or three best for five years. And at least two or three years, you're like, that's the best player in the game. Yeah. And kind of the guy you want, even though, yeah, Kareem is better. We get it. But kind of the guy you want. Willis Reed was sort of that.

1:15:20Bill Simmons:So he was also the biggest enforcer of that era, which you need. And then the Game 7, playing with that injury he had is one of the... I did a whole thing in my book about it. I had him when I did my book, when I did all the work. I thought he was the greatest Nick because of the titles. More than Clyde? That's what he did Game 7. I would put Clyde. I had Clyde right after him.

1:15:40Max Kellerman:mad clad at 32 i would flip that but but you're a few like you're enough years old i'm i'm 50 i never saw you there on play okay all right but you're still a little closer to it you know i have this theory that the weakest um knowledge base that one has in terms of history is the era that occurred in the 20 years before 10 years right before they were born because that's not history yet so people assume in the world the world just assumes you know all this that everyone knows this but you don't know it you didn't live through it so like the 70s i was born in 73 that knicks era is kind of my weakest era of sports history in a way i had i saw clive probably last couple years in the knicks and then when he was on cleveland um but i did have my dad who went to all these games my dad my dad listen to this this is embarrassing for me my dad used to root for the Celtics when they had Bird and McHale and Dennis Johnson and Robert Parrish and Ainge.

1:16:42And I was

1:16:43Max Kellerman:to be like, I hated the Celtics. And I was like, what are you doing? He'd just be watching TV. He didn't go to the games. He just watched. He'd say, they remind me of the Knicks. The way they play reminds me of that Knicks dynasty. And that was over. It wasn't coming back. And the closest thing he could get to it was watching the Celtics. So my dad, um,

1:17:06Bill Simmons:I had Jordan and Frazier, this is in 2010, as his all-time backcourt. And he said, Frazier killed us. He was an assassin. You didn't want any part of him in a big game. He was always been the best guy on the court. I've never been happier to see anyone retire. Isn't it amazing? Like, when you think about... And he's just gone now.

1:17:26Max Kellerman:Like, people just know him as the announcer. And also, there's so many things about him. First of all, his style was so flashy off the court. Yeah. Right? He was him and Joe Namath, right? But on the court, he was textbook by the standards of that era.

1:17:40Bill Simmons:He was one of the best big game guards ever. He was the best defensive guard. In the league. For the first 35, 40 years of the league. And then game seven, 70 finals, Willis comes out and he's done after a minute.

1:17:54Max Kellerman:35, 7.

1:17:55Bill Simmons:36, 19, and 7, and 5 steals and took it to Jerry West. To Jerry West. And Will was playing. So whether you want to go Willis or Walt. I go Walt. They're right next to each other. I had Willis slightly hedges because center was more important, but Frazier's fine. But those are the top two. That's interesting.

1:18:13Max Kellerman:Like, now guard play is so important. Back then in center, you had to have a center. You weren't winning anything. But I just feel like it's like Magic Johnson. I guess, look, Kareem is greater than Magic. I get it. But Clyde Frazier did in game seven against the Lakers in a more unlikely situation what Magic did in game six. right against philadelphia right like you look at those even the lines are similar 42 15 and 7 versus 36 19 7 and 5 whatever it is both guards missing their big the iconic guy in the big and and i guess i guess you're right kareem is ahead of magic a little bit maybe maybe willis

1:18:55Bill Simmons:reads ahead of definitely an argument i had i wrote about this in my book so they had game seven in the 1973 Eastern Conference Finals, Celtics-Knicks. Havlicek separates his shoulder halfway through. It's the best of all the Celtic teams, even though they won in 74 and 76. Everyone says the 73 team is the best team. Havlicek gets hurt. Celtics still have Game 7 at home to win. And Frazier just murders them in the second half. But the NBA had, this is crazy, they don't have the game. Because there would just be games that just don't exist. But they had a game with no audio. and they sent me the game for when I was doing my book.

1:19:33Bill Simmons:Was it just a DVD of the game with no audio?

1:19:35Max Kellerman:Home movie or something? Yeah, it was like a home movie. That's the only way I've seen Sugar Ray Robinson fight it well to make home movies.

1:19:40Bill Simmons:And it's just Frazier coming down, backing down whoever to like 18 feet away and just hitting jumpers. And it's the whole second half in silence. I was just like, oh my God. So anyway, Brunson, so Frazier was...

1:19:54Max Kellerman:By the way, isn't it amazing how your dad puts Frazier in the backcourt with MJ like not even blinking right when you are if someone says who's the most clutch player i've seen it's always going to be the guy on the other team who killed my team right like you can't tell me if i'm making my all-time baseball team george brett is playing third base george brett i don't care you tell me whoever you want i'm taking george brett at third base the dh is david ortiz like i these guys killed me right so like those are the guys i want on my team well i had i wrote this is

1:20:27Bill Simmons:what I wrote in 2010, and I'm interested to see who you would add to this list. In my basketball watching lifetime, only seven guys were crowd killers. Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Bernard, Isaiah, Andrew Toney, and strangely enough, Vinnie Johnson. And those are my seven in 2010. Who would you add to the crowd killer list since then?

1:20:52Max Kellerman:That's a great question.

1:20:54Bill Simmons:Because I think, I don't think LeBron always had it, but he could summon it every once in a while. But I don't think it was usually going to be a shooter. It's usually a shooter who's like, oh, fuck. I feel like SGA is right on the border of having it, but hasn't really crossed over yet. But the funny thing, the reason I bring this up is I think Brunson's on this list.

1:21:14Max Kellerman:I was the closest thing today, I think is Brunson. It's Brunson, right?

1:21:19Bill Simmons:Over. And I think Durant would be another one. Um. Um. on paper, but I don't know if I'd put him on this list.

1:21:27Max Kellerman:It's a guy who you know rises to the occasion. And Durant didn't always have it. And also like a guy who rises to the occasion, but physically, well, how can, why is it him? Why he's rising to the occasion? You know, like Durant's seven feet tall.

1:21:41Bill Simmons:So I think Brunson's on that list. I think so. But anyway, the point is you have somebody like Frazier who was first team All-NBA four times, second team All-NBA twice, was all defense basically from they created the award in the late 60s. He was all defense for the rest of the time.

1:21:59Max Kellerman:I'd have him one and Willis-Reed too, but okay, those two are the top two. So if Brunson wins the title,

1:22:05Bill Simmons:they win the title. He beats San Antonio as a two-to-one underdog. Would you have him ahead of those two guys?

1:22:13Max Kellerman:No, not... But he'd be third. He'd unquestionably be third. He'd be third. One chip, third. Those guys won two. And also, when you mention all NBA, back then you're not talking about first, second, third team. You mean like he's one of the two best guards in the league. And by the way, he's contemporaries with the logo. Right. That's the other best guard in the league. That's the level he's on. And the one thing I will say is that in a league where two-thirds of the team are still playing when the season is over, Yeah. Right? There's... There's no point in a regular season award. The only season that matters is the very long and very high leverage playoffs, right?

1:23:00Max Kellerman:Post-season. And when you say a guy, and this is like the Jimmy Butler rule for me, when every year you're like, when the playoffs start, you're like, you know, Jimmy Butler is one of the top five guys in the playoffs. What you're really saying is Jimmy Butler is one of the top five guys in the NBA. Right. That's really what that means. so Brunson is not first team all NBA but he is first team all NBA at least this year but if you

1:23:26Bill Simmons:ask any basketball fan who would you rather have in the playoffs going forward he would he wouldn't be one of the first three picks but he might be four or five but when you look back at it and see

1:23:39Max Kellerman:what actually happens it may be that we say well that's how we felt at the time but in fact he was the number one guy you'd want. Like, I did this on the show the other day. How many guys in the NBA are you taking over Brunson right now, heading into a series? Who do you want over Brunson? Brunson or SGA? They both, SGA's taller. I'd rather have SGA. SGA's taller. He's a much better defender. I would rather have Brunson. I would rather, like, this is not, oh, it's Nick Spice. Brunson could flip that for me

1:24:06Bill Simmons:in this series. Sure. I think SGA, like he won the title last year.

1:24:10Max Kellerman:He wasn't good just now. I mean, he wasn't awful, but he wasn't that good in this series. He wasn't. You know, and the difference, and when we talk about like.

1:24:18Bill Simmons:I thought he was awesome in game seven, even though he died in the fourth quarter. For a while. Yeah, he kept it. I just thought what he was doing in that game was sick.

1:24:25Max Kellerman:He, the difference between SGA and I'll say James Harden too. Yeah. And let's say MJ or Kobe when they are looking, like when they get the whistle is the priority for MJ and Kobe were hit the shot. And if I get the whistle, fine. the priority for Harden and to a lesser extent SGA is the whistle and if I hit the shot fine and it's not the same thing

1:24:52Bill Simmons:Brunson second team all on bay three times in a row three year peak of 27 and seven four year playoff peak counting this year 29 points a game four rebounds seven assists 46 % field goal 29 for four playoff years is really good I mean that's so the case for him now is best part in the finals team, which I value. I have to do my pyramid at the end of the year. I always redo it every year. After the playoffs? Yeah, he's sniffing around now in the top 100 because of the peak. I mean, he'd have to do it for a couple more years. But this is pretty special.

1:25:32Max Kellerman:There's also something about winning a championship for a franchise that hasn't for 53 years.

1:25:37Bill Simmons:But that's where you get the Willis and Walt. that's why you have to value those because of what that team meant to the city and Patrick Ewing I have third I had him 40th in the book now because Brunson hasn't won a title yet I have him 47 yeah I mean Ewing was top five once top 10 six times playing during an era with

1:25:58Max Kellerman:Hakeem and Shaq and David Robinson David Robinson was better I get it I also felt like Ewing maybe had the edge in that matchup when they played each other, just experiencing those games. I thought it was close, but maybe Ewing had the edge. Obviously not against Olajuwon or Shaq, but who could against Olajuwon or Shaq?

1:26:18Bill Simmons:The 94 finals is tough for him. If you're talking about Ewing big picture, where he ranks, like he just got his ass kicked against Hakeem. He was 18.9 points a game, 36 % in that series, seven game. They just needed him to be better, and it came down to like,

1:26:34Max Kellerman:you know, a couple plays. He was very good defensively. Like, people forget. He had something like six blocks in one of those games. Just the offense never... He had the best... He had a guy who's in the conversation for greatest defensive player of all time. True. On him. On his... At his best. Like, that's the best Olajuwon ever played.

1:26:53Bill Simmons:But it's a good example of, like, if he flips that and they actually win game six or game seven and he wins the title, then Ewing's the best think of all time.

1:27:03Max Kellerman:Well, how about this? Olajuwon doesn't get his fingertips in game six on Starks three. Yeah, but you think that shot was going in?

1:27:12Bill Simmons:I don't know. I have no idea. Like Olajuwon blocked it. My theory at that 94 Knicks team was always, you didn't win the title because the ball was in John Starks' hands in the biggest moments of games for you. And that's the reason you weren't a champion.

1:27:27Max Kellerman:But the bigger issue is John Starks is a sixth man.

1:27:30Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:27:30Max Kellerman:pressed into action because they didn't really have an all-star caliber. Because you didn't have Doc Rivers.

1:27:36Bill Simmons:Well, you didn't have the, Doc Rivers would have been the, didn't he tear his ACL that year? Or was it Blackman?

1:27:42Max Kellerman:One of the years was Rivers, the other year was Blackman. Harper. That was Derek Harper.

1:27:46Bill Simmons:What was the year?

1:27:47Max Kellerman:Rivers was pre-Harper.

1:27:49Bill Simmons:But Doc told me this whole story about how he was hurt, and then they could have put him on the playoff roster and they didn't. But Doc was post-prime at that point. But how do you get to the Knicks? He's a good point guard for the Knicks. He's a good point guard for the Knicks.

1:27:58Max Kellerman:short he no they were in they only had one all-star scorer yeah like john starks was an all-star sixth man type he's like a he starred in the role of sixth man he should not have been the starting shooting guard he had to be because the knicks didn't have reggie miller or alan houston at that point right yeah if they have that guy they probably win that series they didn't have that that was the flaw of the team 100 that's why i said this starting five this last year best starting five, starting five of my lifetime watching the Knicks. There's, there's, in other words, there's no, all the players are at least league average.

1:28:36Max Kellerman:And you have a couple of all-stars and you have a guy who's the next thing to an all-star and multiple players have an offensive game.

1:28:44Bill Simmons:So I have Willis one A and Frazier one B. Okay. Ewing three, the Busher four. Okay. Bernard five. DeBusher over Bernard. Because the Bernard, he just wasn't on the Knicks long enough. I mean, and his peak, where he's the second best player in the league, the Piston series, taking the Celtics toe-to-toe for seven, which was an awesome Celtics team with multiple guys to throw at him. It didn't matter. But the peak was...

1:29:12Max Kellerman:Here's where you're going to...

1:29:13Bill Simmons:Here's the DeBusher case, though. Okay. Best defensive forward of his whole generation. um two were born too early three-point shooter but they didn't have a three-point line so if you put him in a different era it's actually more interesting but everyone was just like this guy was just the all-time winning player to throw on your team and so it's tough because i love as you know i love bernard more than anybody but um i just don't think it was a long enough

1:29:41Max Kellerman:thing to put him ahead of the busher here's the thing that you'll run into with the bush the DeBusha pick. It was a different league. It's pre-modern basketball in the sense that, as you say, there's no three-point shot. And Carmelo Anthony was on the Knicks long enough at a point where he was still among the 10 best players in the league. I don't know that DeBusha was ever considered one of the 10 best players in the league. Like, is he...

1:30:10Bill Simmons:He made one All-NBA top 10, 69 all defense six times right third best player on two title teams yeah he's kind of of that team

1:30:21Max Kellerman:the og ananobi who you love having on your team but i don't know that 50 years from now we'll have

1:30:28Bill Simmons:og ananobi ranked fourth on the so i had him for i had the busher 46th in my book re-ranked to 57

1:30:34Max Kellerman:you have you love the busher i mean my dad loves the busher that's the thing i was i was really

1:30:39Bill Simmons:riding with what the old guys were telling me and to busher was the guy over and over again that

1:30:44Max Kellerman:they talked about like reverentially you got it like by the way one day years from now someone will look at draymond green and be like right yeah but draymond green changed basketball right

1:30:53Bill Simmons:yeah um the carmelo thing i think has been overblown and um you could pick it apart pretty

1:31:01Max Kellerman:easily i would not have him in the top five i think we have to make allowances for carmelo and for Kobe, who tend to get underrated. They're overrated by some and underrated by others because the game changed from underneath their feet. The ground was moving. And because they were featured offensive scorers, the analytics will tend to underrate them. You know, they didn't, like, Carmelo didn't evolve his game the way Vince Carter did, let's say. Not that they're the same kind of player, but like Vince Carter evolved with the league and had a 20 year career and Carmelo didn't, but the analytics are going to underrate Carmelo because the game changed out from underneath his feet.

1:31:48Bill Simmons:Like he was, he just never had the one run. The closest was Oh nine against when they made the conference finals. He wasn't on the right team. Well, part of that was his fault though. I got to ding him on that. Like he could have waited a sign with the Knicks and instead he made them trade a whole bunch of shit for him. If it goes to a team that, and then he has no help and it's like, I don't have any help. It's like, yeah, because you forced them to trade all these dudes to get you and you could have waited.

1:32:11Max Kellerman:Well, by the way, Dolan didn't need to intervene. Donnie Walsh was going to get him for a lot less, you know, like, but like the argument that convinced me about Carmelo is what if Detroit just has a normal draft and drafts Carmelo Anthony? What are we saying about him now? Right. I know it didn't happen, but nothing had to change about the kind of player he was. He just needed to be in another situation. How many times has Carmelo all NBA.

1:32:36Bill Simmons:I was, oh, I have that. I was a big Carmelo defender, um, because I always felt like the best thing about him was that he thought he was as good as LeBron and Wade. So if I, and Kobe, so if I had that in a series, at least I know I'm going to war with somebody who's like, I'm as good as he, whether it's true or not, he believed it.

1:32:55Max Kellerman:He was as, he was as good as like back end of the career Kobe, like the, the more kind of post-up game Kobe that Carmelo was as good as that.

1:33:03Bill Simmons:Carmelo, two first team All-NBA, or two second team All-NBAs, three, four third teams. Seven times one of the, yeah, it's pretty good.

1:33:12Max Kellerman:He wasn't a defender, you know?

1:33:14Bill Simmons:I thought in maybe 2013, he was the third best player in the league. Right. It was him and Durant and

1:33:23Max Kellerman:LeBron. And LeBron and Durant were above him. He just had a game that was tailored to the previous era. Like, you don't have to go back three errors. Just go back one half an error.

1:33:33Bill Simmons:They're 2-2 in that Nuggets series. Yeah. Nuggets-Lakers in 09, right? Series tied at two. He's playing really well in the playoffs. And then last two games, whatever. And then the Indiana, which everybody blames on Tyson Chandler. But Carmelo was in that series too. He just kind of never had the moment.

1:33:51Max Kellerman:I agree. I don't know. I'm just saying like, DeBusha over Carmelo is, you can argue it. I don't know if you win the argument. I don't know if you win that argument. But by the way, the Knicks fans who actually lived through the DeBusha era will agree with you.

1:34:07Bill Simmons:Yeah, I really trusted the old guys because that was what we talked about earlier. And there were a couple guys that they were just fanatical about. DeBusha was one of them.

1:34:15Max Kellerman:We're talking about greatest Knicks. If you say greatest players, hard to argue DeBusha over Carmelo. But greatest Knicks, you could argue DeBusha over Carmelo.

1:34:26Bill Simmons:I gotta say, I don't 100 % understand the romanticism with Carmelo and the Knicks. Like, was that an incredibly fun time that I missed? Like, even Linsanity was probably the most fun part of the entire Carmelo experience. And by the way, I was defending...

1:34:40Max Kellerman:And he drove Jeremy Lin out of New York. I was defending Carmelo to Knicks fans that whole time. Like, oh, when Carmelo gets back, he's going to stop the ball. I'm like, no, Carmelo's a winning player. Listen, I was hearing about TJ Ford all that year, and I saw Carmelo Anthony play for Syracuse once, and I said, they're going to win the championship. That guy's the best player in the country. not close, Carmelo Anthony. And they did. So I thought of him as a winner. I mean, he had a little McNamara and like winning players on that team. And then he doesn't get drafted by Detroit where he probably would have won multiple championships.

1:35:12Max Kellerman:And then when, but like, so I'm like, no, he's not going to stop the ball. He did. And he did drive Jeremy Lynn away. In the end though, was Jeremy Lynn going to win you a championship? He was not.

1:35:22Bill Simmons:The Denver stuff isn't great either when you go back and there's just a lot of first round exits. And, you know, he basically until the 09 finals, that's like his six year in the league. And then round two, just not enough.

1:35:36Max Kellerman:Carmelo was unlucky and then was a victim of his own hubris later on.

1:35:40Bill Simmons:And made the mistake, which the other guys didn't do, of signing the longer contract in 2006. Oh, believe me. And those guys all had the outs, but he didn't. He was stuck with the Knicks for that extra year. Well, the second part of this conversation is the keys to the city conversation. conversation. All right. Guys who just minted in New York, Namath, Jeter. In order? No, no order. Namath, Jeter, Eli, Reggie Jackson.

1:36:13Max Kellerman:Yeah, he is. There's a butt with Reggie though. What is it? Thurman Munson. Well, I had Munson next. Was so beloved that the fact that Munson couldn't stand Reggie because of what Reggie said early on. Yeah. Even though it's not, he didn't need to make it about Munson. Reggie showed up with a baseball bat after the Yankees had been swept in the World Series by the big red machine and said, no one will ever embarrass the Yankees again, as long as I'm holding this in my hand. Yeah. And then hit five home runs, three of them in a row in the deciding game six. Then they gave him the candy bar because he had said the thing, you know, baby Ruth.

1:36:59Max Kellerman:He thought it was after Babe Ruth. And it was actually after Teddy Roosevelt's kid, baby Ruth, right? Ruth, his daughter. But everyone thought it was named after Babe Ruth. So he said, if I ever play in New York, they'll name a candy bar after me. So after no one did embarrass the Yankees with that in Reggie's hand, they gave him the Reggie bar. And on opening day at Yankee Stadium, 78, after they won the championship, he hit the a home run, they had given out Reggie bars and everyone threw the empty wrappers on the field like confetti. I know Bill James and others will argue that it's either very difficult or maybe clutch hitting doesn't exist.

1:37:38Max Kellerman:Look at Reggie Jackson's record in the World Series. It's a big sample size. I just don't agree with that. It's a big sample size.

1:37:46Bill Simmons:Because how do you explain Ortiz then?

1:37:48Max Kellerman:Right. Did you think Ortiz

1:37:50Bill Simmons:was getting hit against you when Ortiz came up? Every time.

1:37:53Max Kellerman:He's still getting a hit somewhere.

1:37:54Bill Simmons:I have Reggie and Thurman. I have Mariano.

1:37:56Max Kellerman:But there's a distaste. As much as people love Reggie, unlike everyone else you just mentioned, there's an undercurrent of... There's a but. Because of Munson.

1:38:05Bill Simmons:Not with Mariano. Mariano, come on. And I think Messier is there.

1:38:11Max Kellerman:No question Messier is there.

1:38:13Bill Simmons:Is there a Met?

1:38:17Max Kellerman:I mean, I would say Tom Seaver once upon a time, probably. You know, he's not around, but...

1:38:26Bill Simmons:Seaver was the one I had. I didn't know if you'd want to... There was an 86 Met. I'm trying to think of who the 86 Met is.

1:38:33Max Kellerman:I feel like Hernandez was close. That's the Gary Carter. Close. And by the way... Not on the level of the guys we just ripped off. You know what the real is? Here are the two guys. Goodman and Strawberry? Goodman and Strawberry. Yeah. Goodman and Strawberry were the biggest stars in New York at the time.

1:38:50Bill Simmons:Would you have any other Yankees from that 96 to 2000 run other than Jeter and Mariana? Well, I mean, I have a personal favorite. No, but for the city, this is the exercise.

1:39:03Max Kellerman:Paul O 'Neill. Paul O 'Neill got the keys to the city. Paul O 'Neill is beloved in New York.

1:39:10Bill Simmons:Okay.

1:39:11Max Kellerman:And then the other guy who people have a love for in New York, like other people outside New York, don't understand is Bernie Williams. Bernie Williams on my all-time clutch team, remember, if your all-time clutch team a lot of times didn't play for your team, but if I was the fan of another team in that whole era, in fact, of everyone in baseball in that era, the last guy I'd want to see come up of everyone in any situation in the clutch would be Bernie Williams because he was a switch hitter. He was patient. He was clutch. Look what he did in the playoffs. And he was calm. He was calm. He fouled off.

1:39:49Max Kellerman:He always wasted the good pitches. I hated Bernie Williams. He had plus power. He would hit 300 plus every year. And he's a switch hitter. He always had the matchup. So Bernie, I would say Bernie. For me, it's Bernie. And for the people I know, it's Bernie. Hard for me to talk for all of New York there, but he's up there. Jalen Brunson wins this thing. Forget it. Reed and Frazier would be the two Knicks. So many young people don't understand And like the reason that Wright Brunson is going to be the greatest of all time is because they don't. One of the most treasured memories I have in my life is bumping into Clyde Frazier downstairs the day of the decision.

1:40:30Max Kellerman:Yeah. And having breakfast with him at this little place across the street from Madison Square Garden. and while we're lamenting the state of the Knicks and the fact that all I can think about is breakfast with Clyde Frazier on the day that LeBron like this is the Knicks and goes to Miami. Oh my, I'll tell my grandkids about this. But I don't think a lot of younger fans in New York care.

1:40:53Bill Simmons:I think there's for a specific generation, Bernard is on that list, but it's only like, it's an age window of like 15 years. Yeah. But the Bernard in 84 and then the first part in 85 was like...

1:41:07Max Kellerman:Go watch... I love Bernard. She's Gotta Have It, right? Like, you know, he's arguing Bernard King. Spike Lee in She's Gotta Have It is arguing Bernard King over Larry Bird. That's who we had in New York at the time.

1:41:19Bill Simmons:Yeah. So Brunson has a chance to elevate to that level.

1:41:23Max Kellerman:No other Knicks from this team? Oh, I'll tell you another guy with the keys to the city. Who? Don Mattingly has the keys to the city. Without the title? Without the title. Don Mattingly is... The hitman? He is so beloved in New York. Like between Jeter and Mickey Mantle, he was probably the most universally loved Yankee. And that includes Reggie and Thurman, even though those guys won World Series and he didn't. And Lawrence Taylor, just because he was the best ever. Right. Like Lawrence Taylor is you. LT is a good one. You can't tell anyone in New York anything about Lawrence Taylor.

1:41:59Bill Simmons:He's the best defensive player I've ever seen.

1:42:01Max Kellerman:Best player. Yeah. Best defensive player of all time.

1:42:03Bill Simmons:I think he might be the best football player I've ever seen.

1:42:06Max Kellerman:Yeah, probably. Like if we're, if we're doing, if we're doing a draft to try to.

1:42:13Bill Simmons:Him and Jerry Rice and, and even Brady, like I'll divorce myself as a Pats fan, but just like got non-Patriots. Jerry Rice and Taylor were the two best players I ever saw.

1:42:23Max Kellerman:The thing about Brady is if we're choosing up an all time, let's draft an all time team, right? Yeah. If you take Brady, I'll take Montana. I'm good. Right. The two players. The drop off of LT to the next guy. It's LT. And the other guy for me is Deion Sanders. If we're strategically, like if we're drafting shortstops and catchers because there's going to be a run on them, like there's no, I know, I know the advanced metrics, like other guys better than Deion Sanders, but I know what I saw. Like, I don't think there's anyone close to Deion at his position. I don't think there's anyone. You can't approximate that.

1:42:52Max Kellerman:You know, you want to take Reggie White. I'll take Bruce Smith or I'll take, you know, I'll take, I can, you want to take, I can take Aaron Donald if I just want a guy on the defensive line if you want to take Jerry Rice I could take Randy Moss yes I would much rather have Jerry Rice but Randy Moss is you know basically you know but I don't know what to do if you take Lawrence Taylor I'm like well you're looking into Derek Thomas like you're already over there outside linebacker who can drop into coverage like forget about the pass rushing John Hanna's like that for for guard

1:43:24Bill Simmons:yeah it's like if I get John Hannon now it's a huge drop off

1:43:28Max Kellerman:that's true that's and by the way that's the strategy you always go for like the scarcity at the position um what should OKC do I had in my notes as well for you Zach and I talked about this for a while there's I was thinking about this um and I don't know if it's the time we live in now we have to overreact to whatever happens

1:43:53Bill Simmons:at all times, right? And how if that had been the case in the 80s, like would the Lakers have traded magic after the 84 finals?

1:44:04Max Kellerman:After tragic Johnson?

1:44:06Bill Simmons:Yeah. Especially when he wanted to trade? The Pistons, when Isaiah, the bird steals the ball and they blow it in game seven, it's like, what do the Pistons do? They got to blow it up. They got to do this, that. It's kind of the mentality we have. The more I look at it, I think the move is just to ride it out. you won the title last year you went against a crazy freak without your second best player you didn't have your second best player you had a big bullseye on you all year just like let's take a deep breath this is a marathon not a sprint it makes me think of what uh what riley said when he was trying to jedi mind trick right before lebron left to go back to cleveland and riley had that press conference and he's like winning's hard only one team wins every year.

1:44:47Bill Simmons:Like the hard part is now when you don't win and you stay together. He's basically like sending this coded message to LeBron.

1:44:54Max Kellerman:Well, Jordan ruins basketball that way. Yeah. The problem with the standard that Jordan set is he's the greatest of all time. And people know that they're going to be compared against that. And when you dig into the numbers, it says that Jordan's the greatest of all time. And when you dig into the analytics, it says Jordan's the greatest of all time and when the analytics get more advanced it furthers the argument that remember real box plus minus used to say lebron had a slight edge over michael jordan as it's become more sophisticated jordan now has the edge even in that stat like a kind of point guard stat over lebron jane so he set that bar how do you beat that well you at least like he also never lost a championship, right?

1:45:39Max Kellerman:He was 6-0 and three-peated twice. And the only times he ever lost, when he had another all-star on his team, even one, was the year he played baseball, came back, and didn't have his legs, and the year Pippen got the migraine against the Pistons. Otherwise, if you gave him an all - So, LeBron and everyone is being measured against that, and they're aware of it. And if you look at the stats and the advanced analytics and everything, like, shit. Not

1:46:05Bill Simmons:quite i gotta get him in championship beat him on game and and duration of career is the way

1:46:11Max Kellerman:lebron's trying to beat him now well i mean like you just do what you can kobe was like i'm gonna do mj better than mj and he took the number 24 he should have taken the number 22 because he got super close right but not quite so it ruined because like before mj you were allowed to lose championships yeah and if if people and it's like it's it's um what harold bloom the literary critic wrote about Shakespeare, about how there's an anxiety. And stop me if I've done this with you before, because this is from my greatest hits, volume three, but it's, it's every writer since Shakespeare, because writers, great writers are always aware of what came before them.

1:46:52Max Kellerman:And in fact, they're kind of having a dialogue with what's come before them. Right. And so, and, or they're involved in this dialectic as time goes on and they, and, and every writer understands that Shakespeare covered it all. There's nothing new you can do. So you have this anxiety of influence. And that's Michael Jordan. He has created an anxiety of influence in basketball that has warped the way we think about basketball. In terms of Chet Holmgren, he has shown that at this point, he is at best the third best player on a championship team. But he's very young. He ran into a guy who may replace Jordan one day as the GOAT if he can stay healthy, maybe.

1:47:35Max Kellerman:And he can grow from this. And I compared it to, oh, Warriors fans mad at me right now. But I just mean in this way, when LeBron blocked Steph in game six and screamed on him and Steph kind of hung his head in 2016, I was thinking, oh, I mean, not in retrospect. At the time, I'm thinking, that's not how you react to that. right like he knows he's better than you you know that too and then in game seven yeah i know steph was hurt i know he was tired everyone's tired you know it's game seven 73 wins at home fourth quarter five and a half minutes left you can't score a point you can't set up a teammate to score a point you're throwing the ball out of bounds behind your back and you lose like that at home to LeBron James?

1:48:25Max Kellerman:He told you he was better than you and you believed him. There's something about that. I believe that. And Wemby did that to Chet. He's been prepping it this whole time. At every instance, I own you. Now, Steph, I think, consistently underperformed in the finals earlier in his career. In 15, in 16, I looked and I thought, this is not the same guy as the regular season.

1:48:49Bill Simmons:It's slightly worse. different uh you're seeing a guy every day for two weeks okay you can start to shift stuff against them and it took them a while to unlock that they shifted against jordan they shifted against larry

1:49:01Max Kellerman:bird but in 22 he answered that one even before then i started to see him turn the corner against kawaii i saw him win games where it looked like okay kawaii is telling everyone i'm the best player in this series look at this look at this look at this and steph answered him right back and won a couple games at home yeah and and then and then by 22 he's the best player on either in other words he got where I wanted to see him get. Truly as the best player in the world.

1:49:24Bill Simmons:The Duran thing kind of screwed it up, too. In this way. I kind of wish Duran had just gone somewhere else. Of course. Even though that 17 Warriors was the most fun, or the most successful team we probably had since 01. But I thought that Rob Curry of his Rocky III moment. If you could have. Coming off the 16 finals.

1:49:46Max Kellerman:Coming back and beating Clubber Lang. Yeah. But yes, maybe. maybe but the fact is this is how it happened but my point is Steph matured and figured it out

1:49:57Bill Simmons:in my opinion and yeah I gotta push back slightly in the block I remember the moment I just I don't I just don't think Steph I think that team was banged up and tired from going for that 73 wins from winning the year before I just thought they're running on fumes you watch those games and it doesn't even... It looks like a... Like, Draymond has 35 in Game 7 and they still lose. He was going to be the MVP of the series. They were going to lose that game by 20 points if he doesn't do that. I saw... Yeah, I saw that moment. Maybe you're right. Because I thought... The key to me with that series is Game 4.

1:50:32Bill Simmons:Cleveland brought it. That's an awesome game that's been lost in NBA history and Golden State won the game. And at the tail end of it, Draymond got punched in the balls. But I think Golden State was going to win that series in five.

1:50:43Max Kellerman:I... I... well, I think that's LeBron goading. Like he knows this guy, one more tech, and he's out. He won't admit that he did it. I know. But I don't know why. It's to his credit that he did it. It's super smart. It's like Muhammad Ali level psychology.

1:50:56Bill Simmons:He should say like, yeah, I knew maybe I could get to Draymond and the game was over.

1:51:00Max Kellerman:But I would say this. But that's like the John Starks 94.

1:51:04Bill Simmons:The Achilles heel of that Warriors team was Draymond's. 100%. When you have that kind of Dennis Rodman type,

1:51:10Max Kellerman:what side of the line is he going to be on? And if you, he fished and he got it, but I'll say this about your pushback. It could be that I'm confusing correlation with causation. Like for example, if I saw a dark cloud and thought, oh, there's going to be an earthquake. And then there was an earthquake. The cloud didn't cause, but hard to tell me when I, when my, when I, you know, my great grandfather told whatever it was that this in my family, we always knew if this, there's a dark cloud, it's going to be hard to tell me that that's not the case if it happens. Right. Whatever. It's a bad example, but you get the idea.

1:51:43Max Kellerman:Yeah. When I saw that moment, I thought, uh-oh. Right. That's my reaction to it. And then so that I linked it to the last. But Bill, it wasn't the last minute. It wasn't the last two minutes. They didn't score six points and the other team scored eight points. With 5.22 to go, I believe it was 5.22. in the fourth quarter of a game seven at home, they didn't score a single point. So maybe you're right, but hard to tell me that because it's not like I looked back and connected those two things at the moment. I'm like, what is this? It's fine.

1:52:28Bill Simmons:It's such a fascinating game because the Warriors, the Bogan injury happens and then Harrison Barnes over the course of that series basically just dies and becomes unplayable, right? unreal couldn't hit anything if you go back and watch it's like an all-time game seven rock fight curry doesn't really have his just doesn't seem like he has his mojo in the same way draymond's keeping the minute and they have azalea out there with like six minutes left who was also not good by the way who i don't think ever i'm pretty sure he never played another nba game yeah i'm i'm almost positive that's no that was an all-time choke um but they had to have azalea out there he didn't know who to play he needed to buy somebody minutes and lebron sniffed it out The first time he got, you've got it, Azalea to fall into him for three free throws.

1:53:13Bill Simmons:And the second time, Azalea was afraid to come out on him, he hit the three. I always felt like that was the game. It's like, you have Festus Azalea out there with five minutes left in a game seven because your team is just depleted or whatever.

1:53:24Max Kellerman:I mean, and then also - That was it. And then, yeah, maybe, I mean, yeah, sure, sure. I mean, obviously it takes -

1:53:28Bill Simmons:I just think they ran out of guys as that series went along. And, you know, they weren't that deep to begin with. Fine, hit a shot.

1:53:35Max Kellerman:You have five and a half minutes is the greatest hash court offense.

1:53:38Bill Simmons:Starting Curry is the worst moment of Curry's career.

1:53:41Max Kellerman:Hit a shot or use your gravity to create a shot for a teammate. Like, or try this. Don't have an unforced turnover. Like throwing the value of possession. But that is the only finals he ever lost. Well, okay, except the only reason they won in 15 is because LeBron's second best player with Matthew Delevedova. There is, like, we, look, two years ago, last year the Pacers were better than the Knicks it was clear they're better than the Knicks two years ago the Knicks were better than the Pacers but injury allowed the Pacers to win we all saw 2015 that was injury now we are in a time in the NBA and maybe it's always been like this and I don't know and I'm not

1:54:26Bill Simmons:I don't chalk that up to an injury finals 15? No I thought the Warriors were good that year I honestly think they would have figured it out

1:54:34Max Kellerman:so if you think the Cavs are good that year. It's because they have LeBron James and Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love.

1:54:39Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:54:40Max Kellerman:And if you took Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving off the team, you'd be like, well, they're not so good, right?

1:54:45Bill Simmons:But they had to change how they played in that finals in a way that I thought actually weirdly helped them a little bit with what they did with LeBron. The difference was...

1:54:54Max Kellerman:In other words, LeBron, because he didn't have his two guys, they played in a way that got the most out of the rest of the group.

1:55:00Bill Simmons:I thought it fucked the Warriors up. And then when the Warriors figured out the lineup of that thing, that flipped the series back. But there was something about how that series, it was so weird that I actually thought it kind of, I still feel like the Warriors, if you're just putting those 15 teams together and the newness of that team and what was going on with Kevin Love, that, you know, the Kevin Love thing was weird those first two years.

1:55:22Max Kellerman:Kyrie was a big game player, though.

1:55:24Bill Simmons:He was, but he'd never really done it before the...

1:55:27Max Kellerman:And he didn't have a chance. Yeah, he didn't have a chance. That's LeBron on the 0-7 Cavs. He basically took the 0-7 Cavs six games against the Warriors.

1:55:36Bill Simmons:I feel like the right team... So if you're going to go 15 and 16, going one and one was probably the right outcome.

1:55:42Max Kellerman:Yes, but... Right. But you have to flip them. Yeah, yeah.

1:55:46Bill Simmons:But it's just like each team probably should have won once. Okay, here's the best argument for Steph Curry,

1:55:50Max Kellerman:for all the Steph Curry fans. Not only are the individual stats great, but he created an environment, both a culture and in terms of the space that he provided and the way he could play off ball, on ball, the whole thing, where it's like in chess, if you dominate the middle of the board, all tactics will tend to favor you, right? If you have Steph Curry on your team, if you have Steph Curry on your team, all these situations will tend to favor you because of the structurally what he creates, both in terms of the culture and in terms of the spacing on the floor and all that kind of stuff, fine.

1:56:24Max Kellerman:I would not take that away from Steph. I still think that he is an example of how a player can mature in the clutch, and not that Chet is Steph Curry, but I wouldn't be so quick to move off Chet. Here's another, unless you just think at his size, we were worried about the longevity anyway, given his frame, blah, blah, blah. Maybe even then you're still selling low. If you look at a guy like Iguodala, who was miscast as a number one in Philly, eventually he's a number four in Golden State, but you still want Iguodala on your team. Yeah. If Chet is a three or a four, i get he's a very expensive three or four but he like it seems to me he's one of the things that

1:57:08Bill Simmons:makes that team really good that's the biggest part of this though is can you afford three expensive guys if you're not sure about one of the three that's that's how or could you turn him into into uh into uh Well, let me ask you this. If they called the Clippers and said, give us the fifth pick for Chet, what do the Clippers do? Because they have the cap space to make it work.

1:57:30Max Kellerman:I think the Clippers would. I think the Clippers would. I think they would too. Would Milwaukee do it?

1:57:36Bill Simmons:I'm not. Giannis isn't answering the question. The question for me is, would OKC want to turn Chet into the fifth pick in the draft making$30 million less? then you bring Hartenstein back. You have Hartenstein and J. Will as your centers. And then try to go get Porzingis or someone like that. Or maybe you try, yeah, or you try to get Robert Williams and Frey H.C. Maybe at five, then try to trade in the top four. Maybe you could talk Memphis into going back two spots or Chicago. It's just, that was the most interesting fake trade of all the shit fake trades for me. Could they get to five for the Clippers, a team that has Kawhi, Darius, Garland, some urgency, not knowing what the aspiration settlement's going to be and all that shit.

1:58:19Max Kellerman:Without running plays for Chet Holmgren, he's giving you 17, what? Eight, two blocks? He's like a 19 and nine. 19 and nine.

1:58:28Bill Simmons:But he was the second best defensive player in the league this season. I mean, like, Chet's a lot. And also, you want... You're just paying$41 million for him.

1:58:36Max Kellerman:And he's a 3-4, really. Like, Wemby's really a 3. He's playing 4 or 5 because he's very tall, but he plays kind of like a 3. Gives you rim protection. I don't know. I would think about it. Yeah.

1:58:47Bill Simmons:But that's it. I would have to get major salary cap relief, and I would have to get some sort of big chip.

1:58:56Max Kellerman:The Warriors are going to... Sorry, the Warriors. The Thunder are going to have to do something, is the general feeling about things, because of the way Chet came up small. And the money. And the money, sure. Right, of course. If they have Jalen Williams, maybe they win this year. They went seven games without their second best player.

1:59:14Bill Simmons:That's, I think, where you land after the wounds, after licking your wounds, cleaning up the blood off the floor. You're like, fuck, would we have won that series if Jalen Williams was 100 % healthy? We probably would have.

1:59:23Max Kellerman:It's more really preparing for what the Spurs are likely to become. You know? So that's the big picture. You win the Super Bowl in Madden, and then the next year, all your young players are rated 10 points higher, right? Like, all of a sudden, Steph and Castle and Harper and everything start to blossom, and it's like, ugh, we needed to do something then.

1:59:43Bill Simmons:Here's the, you'll love this analogy. I love to bring in boxing with you every once in a while just so, you know it puts the hair on your arms standing up Frazier couldn't beat Foreman Frazier was awesome put Frazier against anybody else it was a great fight he was the worst possible guy to fight Ali something about Foreman he had no chance and they did it twice rock, paper, scissors he said no chance I don't know what I don't think Frazier at any point in his career would have figured out what to do against Foreman Foreman would have knocked him out every time. And the question is, is that Chet against Wemby?

2:00:18Max Kellerman:But Styles makes... Is he Frazier against Foreman? Probably, but Styles make fights. So Ali, the boxer, has a hard time with the volume pressure fighter, Frazier, because the guy who wants you to miss, yeah, you make Frazier miss five times. Who cares? Here come another 10 punches, right? Yeah. Hard for Ali. Frazier versus Foreman, the pressure fighter has to come inside against the puncher. He gets clipped coming in. He's knocked out. Hard for Frazier. Foreman, the puncher, trying to swing one at a time against Ali, the guy who can make you miss. Bad for Foreman, right? So it really is rock, paper, scissors.

2:00:52Max Kellerman:And if you're saying that the problem is that the rock is going to be sitting there in your path every single year, you know, that's true. But again, I don't... But no one... Who's going to match up with Wendy? Like, you're not going to find a matchup for Wendy.

2:01:07Bill Simmons:Saturday night, it's like, everyone's going to have this problem, so do you just... except that there is no Wemby answer. And maybe you did the best job you could have done against him, but every team is going to have this issue. So just put your best possible team together.

2:01:21Max Kellerman:Yeah, if I'm the Thunder, I don't think I'm looking at that matchup. I think I'm looking at it. I think we're better than them. We were missing our second best player. And we need one more shooter. If we have him, we're good.

2:01:33Bill Simmons:Yeah. And one more shooter, I think, is the other thing. It was a team that when they couldn't hit threes, felt like they could lose to anybody.

2:01:40Max Kellerman:Well, if they lose Dort, then they're going to, you know.

2:01:43Bill Simmons:Could they make a run at somebody who's just a more reliable, he-checked three-point guy that...

2:01:48Max Kellerman:But I think really what you're preparing for is not... Wemby's always going to be better than Chet. Even if Chet does better, he's still going to be better than Chet. You're preparing for the evolution of...

2:01:57Bill Simmons:This was different, though. This was...

2:01:58Max Kellerman:Yes, he... Chet was a puddle. Yes, he was.

2:02:01Bill Simmons:I didn't realize when we did the pod Saturday night, Chet took both of his shots at the beginning of the game. He went like 28 minutes without taking a shot.

2:02:09Max Kellerman:late possession where he he thought about shooting he didn't shoot but i think really if you're the thunder you're you're you're thinking how do we counteract the evolution of castle and harper really that's really what you're going to have to deal with yeah and that's i wouldn't worry about

2:02:25Bill Simmons:i mean also like what if carter bryan all of a sudden is good in two years and he's good now i know like but but could be like a 35 minute a game guy it's pretty rough it's i think they're set up it's so funny because we were saying this about ok seed last year and somehow san antonio set up even better and it's really just can wamby stay healthy at seven foot six that's it if if if

2:02:45Max Kellerman:i was thinking i said this on because we remember when samson got hurt and and wamby's plays a much he's playing in space more than samson ever did it's a different time and when he now he's but

2:02:57Bill Simmons:samson didn't train with the shaolin monks either or like train how to fall that's another thing like Wimby actually works on how to fall, how to land, which I don't, they just didn't know this shit. Like Samson 40 years ago, nobody was working with them on, here's what happens if you're starting to fall.

2:03:13Max Kellerman:Right, so he has a three-year prime and that's what people are thinking about.

2:03:16Bill Simmons:He fell in the Boston Garden. He was never the same. He fell on his back, led to all this other shit. All right, Max Kellerman, you're going to go to at least one Knicks home game. I got to go do the show in a minute.

2:03:28Max Kellerman:I don't know if, like, let's see if I can get into a home game. I think I might have to catch him in San Antonio.

2:03:34Bill Simmons:Hot ticket. Yeah. Good luck, though. Thanks. Ever since I've known you, this seemed like an inconceivable conversation, that the Knicks might have the greatest Knick ever on their team, that they might win the finals.

2:03:47Max Kellerman:When people say 99, it's so annoying. They didn't have a shot in 99. Yeah, Ewing was... Ewing didn't play, and they were an eight seed. Like, you know, Camby and... And Camby's kind of a forgotten... He was excellent. That was a great trade. He had a great run. That was a great, but like at Sprewell and Houston and those guys, but they didn't have a shot. This is the only shot they've ever had since 94.

2:04:09Bill Simmons:So I said this on a pod a couple weeks ago where I said this Knicks team had the best chance to make the finals since the 94 team. Yeah. And people were like, what about the 99 team? They made the finals. And it was like, they lost Ewing. Like it was a miracle they beat the Pacers. They wouldn't have won

2:04:27Max Kellerman:with Ewing, but they would have gone six or seven games.

2:04:29Bill Simmons:Yeah, like that was crazy that they even got out of round three.

2:04:33Max Kellerman:But I would say that in a way, this Knicks team is playing with house money that the 94 team wasn't playing with because in Jordan's absence, it's like, okay, now. Like we were taking the Bulls. No one in the West took them seven games. We were taking them seven games. We took them seven games with Jordan and Pippen and Grant, right? Now is the time. And this is Patrick Ewing's time. Here we get to see the parallel universe with no Michael Jordan. The Knicks are going to win a championship. so it felt you weren't playing with house money you were like destined to do it and it was so bizarre when they didn't it was like wait what they lost the chip like how is this possible this is house money the knicks were not supposed to be here right like they became this new team

2:05:16Bill Simmons:in the playoffs i agree and i disagree because i also think this is going to be your best chance this decade to win the title yeah it's the best chance you're probably not going to have mitch next year. He's going to leave because I just don't think they can pay him $20 to$25 million. You had no Indiana this year. You had Boston with Tatum coming back. You're going to have other teams in the East getting better. You don't know where the next challenger's coming from. You have younger Wemby who's only going to get better. Or OKC. This is it.

2:05:44Max Kellerman:I think it's not as much about they didn't have the gauntlet. You have all this rest? Based on what I've seen, they would have beaten all those teams based on what I've seen these playoffs. They wouldn't have swept everyone, but they would have won. I think they were. No, Indiana had your number though. If it was the same Indiana team. But they're not winning by 12. They're winning by 40. I get it. The math says yes. Who knows? But that's my feeling. I feel like they're really, really good. The question is, is it sustainable for more than a year or two? Yeah. Right? Like, so is this it? And they're firing on all cylinders?

2:06:14Bill Simmons:You have guys that I wrote about this, the Pat Riley disease of more, which was one of my favorite things to write about in my book. you have all these guys sacrificing this year because they're trying to win the title. Once you win the title, you're not as excited to sacrifice. Towns is like, yeah, eight shots a game. I don't know. I'm ready to take some more.

2:06:34Max Kellerman:You know what? I don't think that's his problem. I think he has the other problem. Towns, shoot more. I think that's really, he's such a team guy. It's like, you know, like I just think it's the, when you say the 2014 Spurs, they had largely the same cast, but it never came together like that year. It was awesome. Right. And so this is now it does seem like they caught lightning in a bottle. They didn't have to run the gauntlet, their gauntlet, they're rested. They're mostly healthy. We'll see if Mitch can play. They just happened to be, and maybe they're catching the dynasty the year before it becomes a dynasty.

2:07:08Bill Simmons:Right. Right. I'll, so I'll do Spurs in six. I don't feel great about it. you'll talk about your pick on game over with rich paul and max kellerman correct um good to see you thanks for coming always good all right that's it for the podcast thanks to max kellerman thanks to eduardo and chris and gahau as well don't forget i'm going to be coming back right after game one of the nba finals tomorrow night we're gonna be live on netflix and new rewatchables mailbag mailbag coming on uh on thursday and then i'm not sure if i'm doing another podcast that week after the Wednesday night pod. We will see.

2:07:45Bill Simmons:Don't forget about the new rewatchables with Steven Spielberg and Sean Fennessy as well in 2001, A Space Odyssey. So I will see you tomorrow. it.

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