A Spurs Fumble, CarusoMania, Brunson’s Mega-Rise and a Knicks Appreciation With Tim Legler and Brian Koppelman

20:43Bill Simmons:Right, right, right.

20:44Tim Legler:Other guys, guards then sneak in and run down a long one. That guard should have been there for the opponent. they're not because they're helping chip on hartenstein because they're tired of watching him get two or three in a row so that's a whole nother element to like what he brings to it just because of his activity and i love that your point about the fouls you don't play through those for and ones against hartenstein he's gonna he's gonna hit you in a way and again he said it's all it's all legal stuff he's chopping down on your arms biceps forearms as guys are trying to get up and then you're going to feel it and you're not going to, most importantly, you're not going to play through it for an and one.

21:23Tim Legler:You're going to have to go earn them and in a lot of cases, maybe, you know, your arm is like numb when you're like going up there to try to shoot.

21:29Bill Simmons:Big welt in your arm. Yeah. So SGA had 32, 16 for 17 free throws, six turnovers. McCain's 18. Hartenstein was 12 and 15 and Caruso's 22 with six steals and four threes. I have two big picture questions for you. But this is the basketball fan. Just that after game one, which was an all time, all time, all timer. It was like, wow, buckle up. This is a series for the ages. Did we fly a little too close to the sun? Because we haven't had a good game since. The series has not been a classic. Game one had all of the everything you'd ever want. And then we've had four kind of, eh, probably never watch any parts of any of these games again.

22:15Bill Simmons:Where are we with this series now? Because I'm watching, well, that'll lead to big question number two, but I'm watching this one. Like, I really thought this was going to be the finals and it doesn't 100 % feel that way. So why?

22:27Tim Legler:Most anticipated game of the entire season, without a doubt, with what's at stake in this game. Because what I said earlier, San Antonio, a lot of people, you know, believe can win the series. We're going to win the series. This is your chance. This is your chance. You know, they each split on each other's floor, So now you go, okay, this is what it sets up. This game five, you get it. You get that last home opportunity to close out the defending champion. This is what we grew up with. These awesome game fives. This is it. This is like the one that shows on NBA TV for 20 years. Game five is the one.

22:59Tim Legler:And I agree with you. I mean, obviously, all you really want as a fan, when you sit down to watch it as a broadcaster, if I'm calling the game, just give me some drama late. That's all you really ask for, man. So somebody that has to really rise up and show a lot of nerve to knock down a big shot, like some great defensive play. That's all you're asking for, man. That inside of a minute game could go either way type of feel to it. And no, you haven't really had. He had that incredible first game. It was the greatest games any of us have ever seen in the playoffs. And you're thinking, as we all were, oh man, we're going to get like five or six more of those.

23:40Tim Legler:It's going to be incredible. And I guess that was too hard to live up to, man. But look.

23:45Bill Simmons:It might have taken something out of both teams. Like, we've had a bunch of injuries since that game and a bunch of guys that don't look like they're 100 % anymore.

23:53Tim Legler:Yeah. Well, hey, listen. At least it certainly beat what we were calling in the Eastern Conference Finals with what went on. I certainly got that same drama in game one of that series. Yeah, you did. With what the Knicks had to do, 22-point deficit in less than eight minutes. And Brunson just put on an all-time show. and then, you know, goes overtime, Knicks win, and then the rest is history. And you know particularly how those last two ended in Cleveland. So at least, you know, these games, even though like Oklahoma City got up 10, 12, 15, 18, whatever it was, you're still sitting there going, there's enough time.

24:26Tim Legler:Spurs are good enough. And like the way the game was kind of going, you're like Spurs could make an 8-0 run here, 10-0 run. This could still get to a six-point game with five minutes to go. And they just, you know, in both cases throughout the series, haven't been able to make that run that really made the other team feel it outside of game one, really feel it, that they were going to chase you down and you're going to have to really earn this late in the game. So, yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess from a fan's perspective, has it lived up to it? I don't think anybody in Oklahoma City is bitching about that right now.

24:59Tim Legler:They're up 3-2, and that's fine with them, man. They don't need to have the drama that we're describing if they can end up winning this in six or seven games.

25:07Bill Simmons:Well, that leads to question number two. we headed into the series thinking this was the NBA finals. The Knicks are just playing better than both of these teams. Yeah. It's just a fact. Now you could say it's the schedule they played, but it's really hard. I think you were there too, the 2014 finals. Spurs Miami and the Spurs just hit that level where they just put, we're playing so beautifully together. I remember being on TV back then being like, I think the series, like in game four, like, I think this is over. I think the Spurs have kind of solved Miami and I think they've gone to another level.

25:43Bill Simmons:And it was just the selflessness and everything we were watching, which you just watched for four games. And if I'm them, I feel like I can beat either of these teams now. Now, we don't know if OKC, if J-Dub comes back and Mitchell and they have a full healthy team and they're going to have all these dudes to throw up Brunson, you know, and try to wear him down and guard him 94 feet. I get there's some matchup stuff, but just holistically, if I'm the Knicks, I'm like, we're in a heater. These teams are just going to beat the crap out of each other. And something magical is happening. We can actually win the finals, which I don't think anyone other than them would have thought two weeks ago.

26:19Bill Simmons:Right.

26:20Tim Legler:I mean, I go back two weeks ago. I probably will be thinking about they haven't lost a game in a month in the playoffs. So I think once they got into that Philly series and started hitting their stride and this was looking this way every night, offensively, somewhere in the Philly series, it started to look like, okay, damn, the Knicks, man, like they've really like closed that gap with the West because at one point, I don't know how long ago you'd have to go back. Let's say for me, probably, you know, March, late March, early April, where you're going, it's a foregone conclusion. Whoever wins the West is the NBA champion.

26:54Tim Legler:And at that time, there was even a time when Denver was even still kind of included in that. Right. But it was really, we were mainly talking about the top two teams. And here's what I'll tell you, that narrative is now completely changed because of the way the Knicks are playing. Now, I'm not sitting here predicting the Knicks will win. What I'm saying is now you've got a series with whoever they play. That's the kind of basketball that they're playing because it was going to take something that was going to be almost mind-blowing offensively to think that anybody coming out of the East was going to be able to operate the way you need to to actually win a series against those two defenses.

27:31Tim Legler:And that's what the Knicks have reached. It's literally a level of offensive basketball that you sit there. It's so overwhelming for their opponents. You can't really even believe that you're deep into the NBA playoffs and this is happening. And it was the switch was flipped in the middle of the Atlanta series. They haven't lost a game since 11 straight. Saw some really interesting stat. I kind of had some people dig up for me because I was really curious. I'm looking at this team and I'm going, When have you had five starters at the same time playing this well in rhythm? So I looked at their field goal percentage as a group, the five starters.

28:09Tim Legler:53 % as a group, okay? So I went and I said, well, who else has done that? You know how far you have to go back? The only three group of starters that were this deep into the postseason that had a higher field goal percentage collectively amongst starters then the next team this year were the 84 85 and 86 lakers jesus and they were layups and dunks half the time that's what i'm saying that's exactly what i said it's magic it's kareem it's worthy yeah like this is the this is the team and they did it three years in a row a little bit a notch above that and then the knicks 53 for your start as a group and it's like it's i mean what Bridges finally cooled off.

28:54Tim Legler:I mean, I was like, okay. You know, because the numbers were getting so ridiculous. At one point, he was 67 for his last 97 from the field. And a guy that shoots mostly jumpers, it gets a little bit of slashing stuff, a couple of layups in transition, but a lot of it is pull-up jumpers. A couple of threes a game. Doesn't go to line ever to get rhythm. So, and he's shooting, he's like 67 for his last 97. At one point, he was 72 % in an 11-game stretch. Landry Schammett comes off the bench. What does he do? Let's just go 11 for 12 from the three. 12 teams. Yeah, it was fun. We had a funny back in Ford, Richard Jefferson, on the broadcast said, he's like, you know, man, one guy that's made himself some money is Landry Schammer.

29:33Tim Legler:I said, is 92 % from the three-point line considered good in the conference finals? Like, I don't know. So even that stuff. But it's the starters. That's really what we're talking about here. The flow that they have, the way they're sharing the ball. You know what that does, Bill? For me, it means this. you can win on the road now because balance travels, defense travels. Their defense is playing almost as well as their offense, but their offense has a lot to do with that because it's been so good. You're taking the ball to the net all the time. Their defense is going to be better, but it's the balance.

30:04Tim Legler:Balance travels. You don't need it from one guy on any given night. Guys are picking each other up. And it's just this machine-like performance offensively does now thrust them into the conversation of, yes, yes, it's possible. The Knicks could be the champions when this is all said and done. Certainly, they're worthy of going toe-to-toe with whoever they face in the NBA Finals. And I don't think anybody thought that going into the postseason, there was a worthy challenger to those teams.

30:33Bill Simmons:Well, they have a couple things you want, right? So they have a star who can go toe-to-toe in the last five minutes of a game. They can come from behind. They don't necessarily, they're a little like OKC in the sense that they can kind of survive a bad game from anybody in their top six and somebody else will pick up the slack. They're getting all these fast break points that I'm not sure that's going to translate into playing OKC or San Antonio. Probably not the same as when James Harden and some of the Cavs are out there. But I think about, I thought the best two teams I saw this century, and it's not even close, were the 17 Warriors and the 01 Lakers.

31:14Bill Simmons:I just thought levitated above everybody. Both of those teams legitimately could have gone undefeated. And then we've seen teams that went on heaters as the playoffs went along. The Nuggets hit a point in 23 where it was like, Jesus, oh, it's happening for these guys. The Spurs 2014 is another great example. And then the 11 Mavs were these teams, seven, eight guys, and you can kind of see them figuring it out in real time. the interesting piece with the Knicks is the math is on their side too like they're like what are they plus 20 now net rating for the playoffs I I remember doing this before the Dallas Celtics series like at some point the math is the math if somebody's just killing everybody for a month you have to take that seriously and I don't think the east was that bad either you know that the that Cavs team I thought was a pretty pretty tough well-rounded team the Knicks were better than them But they, by the end of that series, they were, they were tapping out like a UFC fighter, you know?

32:15Bill Simmons:And, uh, I don't know. I just, I think the Knicks can beat either of these teams. I really do. I would not have said that even 10 days ago, but I wouldn't have them favored. But to me, it's like 50-50.

32:26Tim Legler:Yeah, Bill, I think it would be honestly foolish for any person to say that they couldn't at this point. I mean, and I understand you could talk about the path and who they played. And I mean, I think also there were some things in the Western Conference that the path was a little bit easier than we thought it was going to be for these teams. But listen, you look at the Knicks, there's no doubt. I mean, you know, Atlanta gave them their biggest test. Philly was, you know, dealing with the Embiid stuff, banged up. They were not right, not themselves. It still doesn't explain what the Knicks did to them.

32:54Tim Legler:It doesn't explain in this series what the Knicks did to them. Now, look, I don't think Cavs, the way the Knicks are playing, the Cavs aren't winning that series regardless of what happened in game one. You're not recovering from that. you're not recovering from that against this team the way they're playing because that so this team comes into that game they're already on like hyper drive offensively all right and now okay man this is a tough spot you put them in so what do they do they go have a 44 to 11 run that actually kicked their overall hyper drive into another level for the rest of the series so right because they had to find it like in that moment i look i don't have this all that's in front of me now i had it before the game notes going into game four the other night when they swept but it was like number one in all the playoff teams in fast break points per game.

33:37Tim Legler:Number one in three-point shooting percentage overall. Number one in field goal percentage. There were one or two offensive, I think two offensive rating, one defensive rating, and vice versa. They kept flipping it back and forth every time they'd play a game. But top two, either way, on both ends of the floor. They were dominating points in the paint. They were number one in second chance points. It's like every way you can get it offensively, they're getting it. And it's even more than that. Even more than the numbers. Just sitting there watching them. The connection between each other. It's special.

34:13Tim Legler:It's something special that they've got going on right now. They have lost two games in the postseason in which C.J. McCollum hit a last-second shot to beat them by one point. Or this team is very, very, possibly could be 12-0. Instead, they're 12-2 because of C.J. McCollum playing great at the beginning of the Atlanta series. but once they figured out how they wanted to play, they haven't looked back. And it's another long layoff for them. You know, going to be incredibly fresh when the final start. If this thing ends up going seven, these teams are going to get Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, three days off.

34:48Tim Legler:Knicks are sitting there again for close to a week and a half. Exactly. They're sitting there waiting. Now, the difference is in this last series, they were waiting and then you had to come into the garden. You know, Philly coming off of their seven-game series to Boston had to come into the garden right away. That'll not be the case this time. The Knicks are going on the road one way or another. So it's going to be a little bit different environment for that game one where you set the tone. But regardless, I think it'd be foolish for any person to watch the Knicks right now and not say that they absolutely could envision them being NBA champions when this is all said and done.

35:22Bill Simmons:The two McCollum shots reminiscent of the 0-1 Lakers would have gone undefeated if not for the OT game that Iverson, the stepover game, right? And then the 2017 Warriors won their first 15, had a chance to go 16-0. That was KD's first year. And that team was incredible. And that game four in Cleveland was just an atrocious officiating game and just a weird game where you just, everything felt wrong about it. But they really had it. 16-0 would have been, you know, nobody's done that. And then I look at the Knicks and it's like, Yeah, they're like two CJ McCollum shots away from being 12 and 0 right now, which is a whole other level of everything.

36:04Bill Simmons:So you mentioned this earlier, but I think it's important because I haven't gotten to see it in person. And you're sitting there courtside watching it. They've passed all the eye test chemistry. They have the secret, unselfishness, guys pulling for each other. It seems like they check every one of those boxes. What did you see as you were sitting there?

36:24Tim Legler:A hundred percent they do with the chemistry, the what's being said to each other in, in whatever, you know, moments of adversity they've had within a game, or if they're not playing as well as they want to the leadership that's coming in the huddles, the way that guys are respecting each other, if they've got a voice for what they want to do. but the most impressive thing about it is I'd watch this team now I don't know so we did two of the Philly New York games we did obviously all four of the Cleveland games so that's six we did one of the Atlanta games we did the game in Atlanta when they went up 61 points so that was pretty impressive so we called that game so I've seen them now seven times I think in the postseason and here's what I tell you they are not ever missing the next pass that's supposed to be made.

37:15Tim Legler:It's made every time. Every time I call a game, it's like every third trip up the floor, I'm thinking to myself, just the way my mind works, ah, ball should have gone here. That should have been reversed. That guy's open. The ball needs to go there because it would have led to this. That roller needs to be hit on the short pocket. I don't say that at all with the Knicks. Every single time it goes, we're supposed to. A lot of that is, they're playing with this surge up the floor. And you can see what it did to the Cavs. The Cavs literally just stopped running. They're just like, this is just, who wants to run with these guys?

37:48Tim Legler:I mean, it really was. You know, you think about it, Bill. They had, what was it, 25 fast break points at a half? In a half? The record for a playoff game is 38. They had 30 at the end of the third quarter. They could have had 35 if they wanted to keep running. They could have had 45 if they ran the entire game for whatever reason. But obviously, you're not going to do that in a game like that. So they didn't get to the record. But like, and it's obviously, that was a lot about the Cavs. It's just a lack of commitment, man, to turn and sprint, run back, match up. And they just knew they were overwhelmed and it is what it is.

38:23Tim Legler:But it's not just them that they did it to. They did the same thing to the, at the end of the Atlanta series, they did the same thing to the Sixers. They broke three teams in a row. They really did. I mean, and that's the thing you're watching happen right before your eyes. You're seeing the competitive will be taken away with what they're doing. Now, the most shocking one for me by far was the Atlanta series because that is a 3-2 series. Very much up in the air. And Atlanta's at home for a game six. You're like, okay, we might get a seventh game out of this right away in the first round. Of course, there was a lot of tension still about the Knicks and they were down 2-1 at one point.

39:03Tim Legler:And they were up 45 points in the first half. In the first half. And so you're like, okay, This team has, they've got waves that they're hitting you with where every single read is perfect. Every cut is with intent. Everything they're doing right now is like literally, like if you're any coach at any level, man, this is what you want your team to look like offensively because they're just doing everything on point, on time for each other. And then at the end of it, which you never know if you're going to get, they're finishing it with shot making. Like, that's the one thing. You can play beautiful basketball and not shoot well.

39:42Tim Legler:They're doing that, too, every single game. And that's just what it looks like. And their defense has been just swarming because, again, teams have let go of the rope because they're getting just smashed. And so now they get careless with the ball as well. And it looks like this piranha tank, and they're just grabbing the ball and going. And it's amazing how fast these games are just turning into an inferno for the other team where it's like not winnable in a period of six minutes. That's what they've been doing game after game. And that's like been the most impressive thing of all.

40:15Bill Simmons:Well, and they have an incredible crowd. And then on the road, they're now traveling like Red Sox style with, it felt like it was half the fans at that Cavs game. What was the crowd like in game one? Because it felt like ESPN almost said to lower the crowd mics just so we could hear the announcers. there were some fan videos that came from that game where it was like 10 out of 10 deafening. Because I've been in situations like that with those cans on where the crowd is coming through the cans and you almost can't even hear anything. How loud was it?

40:48Tim Legler:We're doing the open on the court. Myself, Mike Breen, Richard Jefferson about to do the open and we're standing shoulder to shoulder and I was having a difficult time hearing Mike Breen. So fortunately, I kind of knew the question. So I just watched his lips. And when he stopped moving his lips, I started talking, you know, because I kind of knew what the question was, but yeah, it was on that level. And then it got real nervous in there.

41:15Bill Simmons:The Brunson, the game one, yeah.

41:17Tim Legler:Cavs took it to him, and it was like nervous energy, and it didn't, at one point, it didn't feel necessarily like the Garden in a playoff game. They were waiting for a run that never came until it happened in that stretch when they, you know, he just kept getting one-on-one against Harden, over and over, and it took six incredibly difficult shots that he got, well, I'd say four incredibly difficult, two, like, sort of tough, four really tough shots, and they were determined we're staying home with three-point shooters, let this guy go. After six in a row, the lead's been cut in half, and there's enough time to win the game.

41:53Tim Legler:Now they started making decisions. Oh, do we run a guy at him halfway at him? What do we do? The rotations weren't good, and then Shaman hits threes, Bridges hit a couple threes, and the rest is history, but there was a lot of nervousness in there. But I'll tell you this, though, Bill. I'll say this. When Brunson started making those shots, you're still down 18, 16, 14. It felt to me like that crowd knew right then they were going to win that game.

42:18Bill Simmons:Right. Because of the history with the guy.

42:22Tim Legler:They watched him do it 20 times. We just needed this. We were waiting, hanging on the edge of our seat. We were so loud early. and then man they jumped us in the third quarter and it's like wow are we gonna lose this game it was a little bit of that in the third quarter they were just waiting give us one like 8-0 run and we're gonna be fine and that's what he did he gave him that run you know what's funny about

42:44Bill Simmons:that believe it again Brady was like that he got to that point as a QB where he could be down the whole game and you know they'd go for it on fourth and one the other team and screw it up and be like You're giving us the ball back. Oh my God, Brady's closing. You just kind of knew. And it feels like the Knicks are like, wow, you're letting us hang around? Brunson's going to, do you realize what's about to happen? Because he's hit that point. What do we do with him? There's been very few little guards like this in the history of the league who have been able to be the guy on the team that took a team to the finals.

43:17Bill Simmons:He's never been considered a top five or six guy in the league. He made second team all NBA this time around. I think we all thought incredible clutch player. Eh, could you win four straight playoff rounds with him? Probably not. And now he's kind of knocking on the door of like that top four, top five in the league just because of what's happening. Can you think of another player in your career playing in the league, announcing, talking about it? Is there another player that you can think of who's been like him?

43:51Tim Legler:There's not a comparison for him for this reason. And other guys that have been smaller type guards that are your team's highest volume shot taker, leading scorer, that's a hard way to go about it. If you got a guy that's, you know, under 6 '6", even, that's like your point guard-ish that takes most of the shots. And like, okay, there hasn't been, and here's why he's different than those other guys. Most of those other guys, lightning quick, right? And so they played a certain way that you're like, okay, you can see how you can get escapability. He doesn't have that. Now, he's got a shiftiness that he can shake you and get by you because he's got to set you up.

44:32Tim Legler:But you think about it, and I think it's a great lesson for young players. If you're not necessarily the most athletic, because I would call his game a grounded game. He's got a grounded offensive game. If you're kind of one of those guys that's got that. So here's what you have to master. footwork balance get strong get in the weight room footwork balance strength and then the last component that you can't teach that he has is a certainty of in himself of what the result is going to be i think jalen brunson is more certain in in especially in big spots when he goes up to released the basketball than any player in this league he is the most certain of where that ball is going to end up and and that um is incredible because he's not going to shake you entirely he's not blowing by you and getting into the the glass before anybody can react he's not getting to an area in the floor and elevating 38 40 inches for a mid-range pull-up or a lean back he's not doing that he's a grounded offensive player that you still can't stop because he uses his strength, footwork, balance, IQ.

45:43Tim Legler:And at the end of it, he's so sure of himself.

45:46Bill Simmons:Yeah.

45:47Tim Legler:That's really, to me, the final component sets him apart. He is one of those rare players that, like, the brighter the lights, that's what he's kind of been built for his entire life. This is what he knows. And so he was the perfect player that the Knicks acquired at the time. We weren't sure, is this the perfect player that they just acquired? Because you didn't really know. It wasn't his team yet when he left Dallas. Now it was his team. And you're like, okay, let's see what this looks like. and man, this is what it looks like. And the guy, by the way, shoots 46 % or up, I think, every single year.

46:17Tim Legler:So he's a smaller guard that's way more efficient than most guys his size have ever been in this league.

46:23Bill Simmons:There's the sustainability with how he does it because this has been four years now and it feels like he's just getting slightly better each year. Because like the one great Isaiah Thomas season with the Celtics, the second Isaiah Thomas, when he had 29 a game, he was an MVP candidate. I think they made the conference finals. But you're watching it like, man, he's going to get hurt. He's just flying to the basket, right? And he's like this little guy going against these big dudes. And over and over again felt like he was flying in the basket support. I always felt watching it like, man, there's like a shelf life with this.

46:58Bill Simmons:I don't see how you can keep playing this way. Brunson almost moves more like Jokic, where it's like, I feel like he could do this for 10 years. This is all like footwork and confidence and know-how. So when I think about the guys, there's nobody to compare him to, but he's got pieces of different great guys from over the years, right? Like Isaiah was the toughest guy in that Pistons team, right? That was the bad boy Pistons. He was the toughest guy. But also like in the end of games, he knew he could take over and score. I don't remember seeing Oscar Robertson. I was too young, but they always talked about the way he controlled the pace of a game and just slowly, painstakingly got to his spots.

47:38Bill Simmons:And that's what made him special. So there's guys, but to watch a six foot one guy who can control a game with his footwork, basically, who's the toughest guy on his team. And then you hear Mike Brown say this week that Duncan and Curry are the only two people he's ever seen as leaders like that. And those are the two best leaders of the past 35 years in the league that everybody talks about. Like, if you have this guy, you have a culture the entire time you're there so you have that too it's just it's an all-time signing it's one of the great free agent signings in the history no doubt about it i mean they're

48:12Tim Legler:talking listen i mean there's a lot of people now in new york and you see it all the time online or conversations or podcasts whatever the topic comes up greatest knicks of all time he's played himself in that conversation to the point where if he wins this he's able to win this and he puts up the kind of typical jalen brunson numbers in an nba final and this guy averages like 30 or something in an NBA finals and, and they, they upset San Antonio or Oklahoma city, which I mean, it's be as big of an upset now as it would have been, but I'm saying, you know, these are both teams that won North of 60.

48:42Tim Legler:Right. And he's able to pull that off and, and also doesn't have home court advantage in doing that. And he goes in and he, you know, shoots 50 % from the field and averages 30. Like, and they win a title. It's, I can't even, I don't even know, like where does he, where does he shoot? With 53 years of baggage? Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Where does you, where do you shoot historically if that happens? It's been 53 years, you know, 27 since they just got to the finals, you know. So he's a special player, man. They got the right guys around him. Give Leon Rose and that group a lot of credit, man, for what they did and the pieces that they went out and got.

49:16Tim Legler:Even a guy like Bridges, who he gave up a lot for, and he was getting beat up at times this year, and certainly in the Atlanta series. You know, the game before this whole streak started, remember, he had no points in four turnovers in game five. of that series. I'm sorry, he gave three of that series where they go down 2-1. Right. And it's completely turned around for him. So even he was now...

49:40Bill Simmons:And he's figured out where to go on the court that's the best for him, which it felt like that took two years.

49:45Tim Legler:And here's why. That subtle change he made to their offense with Cat, and look, his assist number spiked in the Atlanta series. They're not even quite as high since. There's no doubt he's touching the ball more. His shots are down. His scoring is down. It's interesting. But he feels way more important because he's touching the ball 25, 30 more times a game. And so what that has done from a Bridges standpoint is he's really good at weak side, like getting a little brush screen and then curling and slashing through the lane and catching some of these passes from Towns or doing that continued run to the other side.

50:21Tim Legler:And then he's that guy that will catch the ball and immediately catch it, put it down for one dribble for 18 foot pull up. his natural motion now within the spacing they have is so much more suited to him than standing around waiting and watching high ball screen 45 times a game and hoping it's going to come your way that's not the kind of player he is he's the kind of player now he's moving the entire game and that's what their offense looks like now without a lot of play calls by the way it's just spacing and putting guys in the right spot at start and then make reads and it's it's really suited his game.

50:54Tim Legler:So it's not a coincidence that all of a sudden he started shooting well, not well is an understatement of the century, that he's doing this. It's because its offense now is much more suited to his skill set. And so he looks comfortable and confident. OG's been great for them, obviously. Cat, you know, Josh Hart is like probably the heart and soul of what they do with what he gives up every night to try to win. It's been awesome to watch man they're just um they're just absolutely on fire and that's the biggest question whoever they get in the finals what are you going to do to slow this machine down because that's what they've

51:28Bill Simmons:turned into offensively their machine i still don't completely understand the cat piece of it just because he's was in the 2015 draft he's not like a 27 year old player at this point he's been in the league for this is 11th or 12th season and it was like this is just who he is he's gonna get dumb fouls. There's going to be games when he's going to seem upset that he's not touching the ball enough. He's going to get beaten on the glass every once in a while. He's going to be defensive. He hasn't been any of those things. He's been additive. He'll go six for nine, get 13 rebounds, maybe two turnovers.

52:08Bill Simmons:So I have one dumb foul each half. But this is the most I've enjoyed watching him. And it's basically because he's been relegated into being this awesome supporting guy, which maybe should have been his destiny all along.

52:19Tim Legler:Well, I think what he's done is transformed himself by the way he's playing into. Now you look at him and go, that's a winning player. That's a guy you can win with as your center. And so you didn't know exactly what he was. He had a lot of talent and he was kind of multidimensional, a big dude that could play some power basketball but really can shoot it. But you didn't know. Here's what I think the greatest testament to what I just said about how he's labeled now. This season, all year, man, like every time we saw the Knicks, saw Mike Brown, like we were asking him before the game, because Cat was the number one topic of conversation in New York surrounding the Knicks, because it was like up and down offensively, sometimes it didn't seem very included, sometimes it was less like, man, he doesn't really fit, he doesn't seem like he's even happy in this offense, like running this offense.

53:04Tim Legler:He didn't seem happy. They changed it, they changed it mid-season, and then really changed it in the playoffs. Here's what I wanted to say about him. Despite all all of that bill every night the guy rebounded it was like death taxes and 13 rebounds from carl anthony towns and so that helped them continue to win and it's how you end possessions by securing the defensive glass so that was there every night and i'm this guy is not a guy that's like gobbling up soft rebounds he's not getting you know six a game off miss free throw he gets physical tough rebounds in traffic where he used his body and he has been this physical presence for them in that starting lineup defensively, even on the nights when he only gets eight, nine shots.

53:51Tim Legler:And that's changed, I think, the way a lot of people maybe have viewed him. This guy is now a great fit for what they're doing. And I just love those kind of stories because he's a great person. Like, the way he carries, he's raised well. Like, he's polite. He's just a good dude. And it was like, he had a lot of talent. You were kind of just wondering, what is his ultimate label in this league? And I think this is now the perfect situation for him to be appreciated and admired for what he is capable of doing. And he's been just a bigger part of this. But the good thing is they don't have to get it from any one of these dudes on any given night because they're all doing it.

54:30Tim Legler:So one guy can have an off night. It's okay. Everybody else right now is in such rhythm. It doesn't matter.

54:36Bill Simmons:Well, the other thing about when you talk about the appreciation, that's the other thing at stake for these guys. and yeah, I haven't heard I would say everybody's been talking about the Knicks for the last couple days, but you win the title you can see it with the guys who didn't win the title, who didn't even really make the playoffs that are still invited to these games and are part of the past with the Knicks. Guys like Stephon Marbury, I don't think he won a playoff series. Ewing obviously made the finals Starks did, but if these guys win, Towns could be strolling back in there 35 years from now.

55:09Bill Simmons:It could be 70 years old in a standing ovation like that's what's that's some of the stuff that's at stake here I mean they're

55:16Tim Legler:you kidding me they're they're at the place now where like Jose Alvarado would get that treatment if they win this because he's so popular there with like his energy and like what he does so and I by the way to your point I don't I don't I've never seen that many former players showing up at games at the same time ever yeah this league that's just not yeah not even the Celtics have that many how do you 15 guys there the other night from like different eras and stuff it's really cool man they're all kind of vibing on this and the city is obviously just so electric right now. I don't know what that city is going to look like if they actually pull this off and win it.

55:51Tim Legler:If it's as energized as it is right now. I don't know how you're getting out of the arena. I don't know. Breen fortunately knows all the tunnels and stuff. So you can get out of there if you have to after the game. Although he'll probably stay there and be back there. Because he's a, look, the guy's a Knicks fan. He's the most unbiased broadcaster I've ever seen. when he calls Knicks games. He's every bit as enthusiastic for the other team and whatnot, but he calls Knicks games. He's a lifelong Knicks fan. Everybody knows that. And here he is with an opportunity. He's going to be calling his first finals as the lead play-by-play guy with the Knicks in the finals.

56:24Tim Legler:So it's kind of an interesting dynamic to it as well. But he's obviously the best in the business. I'm lucky to be sitting next to him.

56:31Bill Simmons:Yeah, he's been a Knicks fan since age seven. But I think you geek out. The Knicks fan side of you geeks out before and after the games, right? You're doing the game. You're just doing your job. It's almost like you're an airplane pilot. You're just moving all the levers. He's setting you guys up. You're just lost in the game. But I'm sure there's got to be moments when he's just like, holy shit. It's the fucking finals. We made it. I'm here. We actually have a chance to win. Jesus.

56:59Tim Legler:What's crazy is for all Knicks fans, there's like how quickly they just dispatched of the conference.

57:05Bill Simmons:Yeah.

57:06Tim Legler:Like that's the thing. You're going into this. You're going into this. You're the three seed. So you're, you know, but you think you got a chance. You're like, okay, you know, Detroit unproven. They got some offensive issues. The Boston is missing. Got Tatum back late, but like they're not quite the same. We're a three seed, but we have a real chance. And then what happens? The one and two get taken out for you. So you don't even deal with the one and the two. And now you find yourself with home court advantage.

57:31Bill Simmons:And you lose Indiana, who's your nemesis. They're not even there to begin with. They're dealing with stuff.

57:36Tim Legler:So, so, so like, and now you go, okay, going into the playoffs, I'm sure Nick fans were thinking like hopeful, but, but nervous, like you would be like, we don't know exactly how it was going to go to like completely dismantling the Eastern conference. Like just such clockwork, the first round knockouts night after night. And, and here they are sitting there with all this time off waiting to play whoever's

57:59Bill Simmons:coming out of the West. You know, sometimes that's just how it goes. I even feel like the 2024 Celtics two years ago, I don't know if they would have beaten Denver, but we never found out because Denver never made it. And the way it just lined up was like perfect for them. Sometimes that's what happens. You know, like Milwaukee in 2021, where the Nets just fall apart as that series happens. Phoenix somehow ends up in the finals. Davis gets hurt. And just a couple of things go your way. And that's what happens when it's a year. The Knicks have been healthy. They gelled at the perfect time, and it feels like something magical is happening.

58:36Tim Legler:That's really the key to it. It's so rare for a team to hit perfect rhythm. Their absolute peak, and beyond probably any reasonable expectations for what their peak was, they actually smashed through what their ceiling was at this time of year, at exactly the right time that you have to have it, and to do it now and then sustain it series after series with one more series to go. and we'll see how it goes. But they got some work to do left in the West.

59:05Bill Simmons:Well, you get to call the games. Hopefully, you'll finally get a good series. Talk about getting boned over with drama in a playoff series. Did you call one good game? You guys are like 0 for 7. I think it's Richard's fault. I don't think you should take the blame. I think it's Richard's fault.

59:21Tim Legler:We did the Nick comeback game against Cleveland. Oh, that was a good one.

59:26Bill Simmons:Okay, so you're 1 for 7.

59:27Tim Legler:Yeah, because we called the whole conference final. So we did that game.

59:30Bill Simmons:Yeah, I forgot.

59:31Tim Legler:So you got one good one. I'm trying to think. We did a game, a Philly-Boston game, when Embiid came back and they beat Boston. And Embiid was great in the second half. Was that game five?

59:44Bill Simmons:Game five, yeah. I didn't really enjoy that game. That was a huge fan of that one.

59:47Tim Legler:In Boston, that was a good game, at least. There was some drama to that. I'm trying to think.

59:55Bill Simmons:Maybe there was one more. But no, for the most part. Well, the Brunson game was awesome. So you at least had one good one.

1:00:01Tim Legler:I mean, it was the greatest comeback under the circumstances in the history of the league. So yeah, that was like... Actually, the next morning, I was in the hotel room in New York, and I was still kind of really processing what I just watched. Yeah. Because of how big they were down with that amount of time to play and what Brunson did. And the beginning of that run, take a look at the first two or three shots he hit. they're incredibly difficult shots.

1:00:31Bill Simmons:He hit one off the backboard that I have no idea how it didn't go flying off the backboard. I know the one you're talking about.

1:00:37Tim Legler:Yeah, I was like, how did he have touch on that? The ball hit the white stripe on the top. On the very top. From the right, right off the right lane. And he's shooting it this way. Exactly. I just don't know how that went in. Yeah, I remember, I remember calling, then that happened live. And then I got to do the replay on that particular shot. and now as I'm talking, it's super slow-mo, high def, and so you're watching this ball, and I'm like, it just kept going up and up because the first time you saw it live, I wasn't exactly sure where it hit. I know it was up there. And then you see the replay, and it hit the white stripe on the top of the backboard from that angle and went straight through.

1:01:13Tim Legler:That's when you're like, are you kidding me? That's still, they're down like 18 when he hit that. And you're like, okay, that's what it took to get down 18. How are you going to finish this off? So it's been unreal. Quickly on Cleveland,

1:01:26Bill Simmons:They announced Atkinson and the front office is coming back today. They're set up now for a LeBron comeback that I don't think will happen, but at least on paper, it could be discussed. They have to get into a luxury tax. Whatever team we just watched is not a team that's going to win four straight playoff rounds. So they're going to have to figure out how do we pay less money? How do we shift stuff? They're stuck with Harden now because they obviously made some wink-wink. Come to us, we'll blow up the last year of a deal. We'll give you a shorter deal to save some money. what's the move? If you had to pick Mobley, Allen or Mitchell as the move for them to reset the team and maybe try to shed some money and move the roster in a different direction, who is the guy you would look at?

1:02:14Bill Simmons:The guy you'd look at to move or to keep? To move. If you had to get rid of one, who makes the least sense for them? Or would you cut ties with Mitchell at this point? What would you do?

1:02:26Tim Legler:I don't think I would cut ties on Mitchell. No, I still think, I still think when you have a guy like that, and even in this series, he, first of all, I don't think he was right. I think he had something going on with his groin. He was limping a little bit. I think it was game two.

1:02:37Bill Simmons:Yeah, you guys were talking about that a bunch. Like, he didn't have the lift sometimes.

1:02:41Tim Legler:I don't think, I'm trying to think, I don't think he had a dunk in the series. Hmm. Okay, you're talking about a guy that's like, he's known, he's going to get one or two of those rim attacks a game where he takes off, right? And ties a tomahawk on somebody. he didn't really have any of it. It's weird because he still had pretty good numbers for the series overall. Like the only guy that did. You know why he was because he was worn out

1:03:04Bill Simmons:from the 14 games it took to beat the two teams they were better at. That's like their fault. I think that was a big factor, Bill.

1:03:10Tim Legler:And I think, you know, it's a big factor. He played every other day for like a month.

1:03:14Bill Simmons:When he didn't have to. You should have won those series in five. And it was their own fault.

1:03:18Tim Legler:Yeah, their own fault. But it still is a factor. And you don't know how much of a factor until you run into a fresh team like they did.

1:03:25Bill Simmons:Then you're like, it was obvious. So you would look at Mobley or Allen trying to choose between those two.

1:03:32Tim Legler:Probably Mobley. And I think I was a little bit disappointed in this series just because like he shoots decent percentage from the field. He'll have some games where he does decent rebounding numbers, but he just has stretches of games where he just, you don't notice them. Yeah. Offensively. Now we're what? He's four years in. He's 25 years old. And you're like that. You just wanted that next progression. He's a little bit better three-point shooter. He's probably much better than when he came in the league, but he's not like he's out there shooting 40%. He's in the mid-30s. He can make them. He made one or two, I think, in probably every game in this series.

1:04:06Tim Legler:That's great. He added that. But it's just the impact and the force that you wanted to play with for the entire game because he has a lot of talent. And he hasn't really been able to kind of find that gear. So maybe it would be him. I don't think it would be Mitchell.

1:04:22Bill Simmons:Would you trade him for Giannis?

1:04:25Tim Legler:Oh, for sure. For sure. Because of where Mitchell is in the stage of his career.

1:04:33Bill Simmons:And being stuck with Harden, too, now for two years. So now it's like you're giving yourself a two-year window.

1:04:39Tim Legler:That's what I'm saying. So I don't think that it would make sense for me in certain situations with Giannis.

1:04:47Tim Legler:Depending on where it was, it does in this case. Because that window is now. Every year is now going forward. So that would be the immediacy that you need in a guy that's built, that can get you through a deep playoff run, and he's going to play with force against any defense and all of those things, and he's won a championship. That would be probably a place that I would say, yeah, that makes sense.

1:05:08Bill Simmons:So if we sat in a log cabin and talked about this for two weeks straight, I think we would come to this conclusion. how are we going to win four straight rounds if our guards are Mitchell and Harden how are we going to defend there's too many good perimeter guys in the league how are we going to be able to defend these guys when we need both those guys on the floor and one of them at all times is going to be exposed and Mitchell is slightly better than Harden one of the things

1:05:30Tim Legler:I did uh post-mortem on them on uh on like a sports radio station in Cleveland and it was what do they need to do like what's what's it look like assuming you're going forward with Mitchell and Harden. So they've got to get much more athletic on the wings. They've got to get tougher guys. They've got to get you know, you maybe have to sacrifice some of the guys that can shoot for you because they didn't even shoot that in this series at all. So you need to have some guys with a little bit better switchability factor a little bit better where you have options as a coach on what matchups you want to see.

1:06:07Tim Legler:And guys that can run and get after in the open floor and play with that aggressive force because you're seeing the teams that are lasting in this league. They've got some guys like that. And they didn't really have a lot of that. They got the two bigs. They play well together, both talented guys. The two guards, a bunch of shooters, role players for the most part beyond that. But there was an overall physical toughness that they were not bringing to the Knicks. That it was so obvious. And I mean, you saw it other times with Cleveland, but it was really exposed in that series. And so look, they've already made the decision to move forward with Kenny Atkinson and they're going to go from there.

1:06:43Tim Legler:And now I think they got to retool the supporting cast and probably move one of those, one of those bigs.

1:06:49Bill Simmons:I mean, the flip side would be, it's a 30 team league and they finished fourth. I don't know when, when you start talking yourself into that side of the narrative, I just don't think Mitchell and Harden, you could win four straight series of that. And I don't really love Allen and Mobley together either. So I would probably get a little more creative. All right. How are you feeling about the commanders? Decent? getting ready for minicamps.

1:07:10Tim Legler:This time of year, I always feel amazing. Favorite part, right? Favorite part of the year. It's the greatest time of the year. Schedule comes out. For a fan of a team that has struggled that long, yes, man. Schedule release, although we had a tough schedule early. Schedule release, and then every day, I'm reading about the OTAs, and I'm just reading about these guys in minicamp and who's impressing. And Styles looks amazing, apparently. He's already the leader of the defense. He's going to be calling the plays as a rookie. I'm like, This is all the stuff I want to hear. So really excited. But it will always come down to the health of Jay Daniels.

1:07:44Tim Legler:End of story.

1:07:46Bill Simmons:I'm just excited there hasn't been a story about my Patriots in a week. So hopefully we can keep that going.

1:07:52Tim Legler:Have fun. I will. And I think the one thing we're going to get, Bill, and I don't like making big predictions, but I do feel really good that I know we've had a lot of lopsided games, blowouts, maybe in the postseason. We wanted more on a given night. I think the finals are going to be incredible. Whoever comes out of the West, I don't see that being a five-game series with like three lopsided games. I just, I don't see it. The Knicks don't go away. The teams coming out of the West, they don't go away. They fight. They're talented. They're deep. They defend. I don't know, man. I think we could be set up for this incredibly epic NBA Finals.

1:08:29Bill Simmons:And all the rest the Knicks get, you know, last round, this round, like you can't sleep on that either. If this OKC San Antonio goes seven, they play Thursday. They play Saturday. They have a couple of days. And all of a sudden, they're going again. And the Knicks are just getting healthy, running plays, having bonding pizza nights. All right, Tim Legler. Say hi to the ref for me. Please give him a congratulations. Good to see you. We're going to be coming back, take a break, come back with Brian Koppelman right after this. Uber Eats makes last minute gifting easy, whether it's Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduation, whatever, you blink, they're here.

1:09:06Bill Simmons:But just because it snuck up on you doesn't mean your gift has to feel like it. The Uber Eats gift hub has something for everyone. Flowers, perfume, champagne, even their favorite takeout order. It can show up in as little as 25 minutes, even if you just remembered five minutes ago. The best part, you can add a video message and a personal note so it actually feels like you planned it all along. Order on Uber Eats today. Must be 21 or older to purchase alcohol. Product availability varies per region. see app for details. All playoffs long, I've been looking through the slates, trying to come up with some good picks from FanDuel Sportsbook to throw on my Twitter feed.

1:09:43Bill Simmons:Usually my favorite parlay, some add-ons if you want to get a little wacky with a longer shot. So I'm definitely going to be doing something for Game 6 and probably zagging against whoever lost in Game 5 zagging the other way for Game 6 because I think this series just it just reeks of seven. But we'll see what happens. I will have that pick on Thursday morning for game six. When I bet, I bet with FanDuel. It's a brand I trust. Easy to build my NBA bets on FanDuel. I know I'm getting great odds. Payouts on my parlays. Boosts every day. And you get your winnings instantly on FanDuel. FanDuel, play your game.

1:10:23Bill Simmons:All right, my friend Brian Koppelman is here. I just want to mention he didn't want to come on. And I reminded him, you've come on so many times. dating back to the ESPN days to talk about the Knicks. And it was always sad circumstances, unhappy. Why did God do this to me? I don't understand. We talked about our friend Goldman, who passed away in the late 2010s. The last finals he saw was 1999. Missed all this. And that was what I said to you, Koppelman. I was like, you know what? You're about to make the finals. This is the most fun Knicks team of this century by far. It's a really special team, even regardless of what happens in the finals.

1:11:05Bill Simmons:And you have to come on and talk about it. So you're here. Yeah, we made, we made the finals. We're not about to, we made the finals. It's very exciting. I didn't want to come on cause I don't want to, I don't want to jinx it. I really just want to be the, uh, uh, I'm here as just a, I'm such a fan. Look, my first memory, cause this is like you and your dad, you know, and, uh, you and your kids. My very first memory is it a human being is being with my father who died three years ago, but being with my dad at the Knicks, I was turning five years old. And that's literally the first memory I have is Madison Square Garden with my dad watching the Knicks.

1:11:42That's how important this team is to me. It's, it's, you know, in the fabric of my life, it's the best thing about sports is these connect. And the worst thing is these connections we have to these teams and what they mean because of the memories we share with people. These times get you corny. Get me corny and I can't help it because I'm literally thinking of this guy named Bobby Angler who grew up across the street from me. And he would wear Walt Frazier's number and I'd wear Earl Monroe's number. And we'd play one-on-one all day and all night long as Earl and Clyde when we were little kids.

1:12:20And like, we still, he's four years older than we still text each other when the Knicks are in the playoffs. Like from when we were seven and he was, you know, 10 and I was seven, he was turning 11. It's like, it matters to my college friends who I went to games with, some of whom I still am in touch with, some of whom I don't talk to that much. They're texting me. Not because I'm a special Knick fan, but because we're all Knick fans and care so much. And so, yeah, I don't want to jinx anything. I'm just so happy to be in the finals every single person involved with the Knicks has just done an incredible job and Jalen Brunson's the truth

1:13:00Bill Simmons:so this segment is brought to you by New Era ironically because this feels like a new era for Knicks fans you think of the 2000s and the 2010s and all the crummy things that happen and then Leon and Wes take over All-Star Weekend 2020, a month before COVID. And with, with really one goal, how do we, how do we basically recreate the 2004 Pistons with Rashid and Billups and all of these dudes? How do we think outside the box and try to put a contender together if we're never going to have, if we're never going to luck out with the lottery? Nobody wanted to just do the lottery thing again, because the Knicks had done that a million times.

1:13:42Bill Simmons:How do we think outside the box? When did you start believing in the vision? What year did you think this is actually something that was going to work? Well, in the beginning, I didn't know. Right. And you know what happened is, I mean, you were involved in part of what made me be a believer was I ended up taking a walk with Wes and we called you and you were like, this guy, these guys, they mean it. And, um, and Wes, as you know, is look, Leon's obviously a visionary with figuring out how to put this team together, but Wes is this incredible connector of people and built this belief system. So I think Wes was going to find all these people who were like lifelong Knicks fans and trying to convert them into becoming believers.

1:14:41But it's Just like things are different now.

1:14:43Bill Simmons:Just trust us. Like we get it. We have the right vision in place. He would convey that they really cared so much, like about turning this around and they kind of put their own net. Like they would say, like, like judge us based on how we do. You know, so many people in those roles want to run from responsibility. And I felt right from the beginning that that those guys were saying, no, we know what we're saying we can do and we're going to do it. But I can't I don't I look. There's a lot of. Anyone who's a sports fan of a team that has lost for a really long time or not lived up to the promises, knows that it starts to feel a little bit like post-traumatic stress.

1:15:33And you don't you just are so accustomed to getting disappointed and hurt. And it is such a joy. So, like, for instance, the Jalen Brunson move. Yeah. So many people want to say, oh, I knew it. I'll be honest. I had no idea that that was a smart thing until I started watching him. And by the end of the first season, it was so clear that we had a guy who was one of the smartest people in the league. one of the true leaders in the league. I mean, a guy who is available to fans, like communicates, but his emotional range is that of like the greatest leaders in sports. Well, did you see what Mike Brown said today?

1:16:21Yeah, you told me. I mean, say it because you saw it before I saw it.

1:16:25Bill Simmons:Yeah. Yeah, they asked him about Jalen Brunson as a leader and he compared him to Steph Curry and Tim Duncan, two other guys have been around now. Anyone in basketball would say those have been the two best culture setter leaders that we've had basically in the last 35 years since Magic. And for him to mention those two guys as a comparison, I was like, whoa, that's not faint praise. That's like a real thing to say. It's so great for something to be like a positive surprise when it comes to the Knicks. You know, you're right when you talked about 1999 and then sort of the years of like the angry Nick fan.

1:17:07And I know I personified that sometimes, you know, I wrote about I mean, for you, I wrote a lot of articles about being angry, about being happy when Spree came back and made the chokes. You know that the that that signed to the owner. But I'll tell you something like this has turned me around completely. First of all, I never stopped going. I've had tickets since 1989. I had one ticket. My friend Alan Havy had the other. And Havy and I, then Havy moved to California 12 years in when I could afford both tickets. And I've had the two seats since. But I've had seats since 89. And so this is just an incredibly meaningful, great thing.

1:17:52And yeah, if this is as far as it goes, it's a win to get back to the finals. I started taking my son, Sam, right when he was the age I was when I started going four or five years old. He's had some, you know, we've had long walks back. I wrote about the long run for him.

1:18:08Bill Simmons:Yeah, because it was basically the reverse situation of what I had with my dad. Yeah, I had my dad and we're winning titles the first year we went and we had Larry Bird. And meanwhile, poor Sammy had nothing. He had that Carmelo again around to once and for three weeks. Yeah. He just watched all of these disappointments and he's still, you know, wears a Knicks hat almost every day and, uh, no matter, you know, he's just a diehard fan. And, um, I do think that these guys have put together an incredible squad. I mean, you think about that day that, that Jalen, I love that this clip resurfaces all the time, but you rarely see an athlete in such an open moment, even in this era, Bill, such an unguarded moment is when he found out.

1:18:51Oh, the Josh. Yeah. And, And almost the opposite of the way people, when the Luka thing happened and people were getting it, when he found out that Josh Hart was traded to the Knicks, it's almost like he knew all of this. Like he started jumping up and out because he knew, oh, you put like my best friend, this guy who I know exactly how to make him better. I know I can count on him. He makes me better. He's going to throw his, because, you know, Josh Hart is such still underrated and he's just so perfect on this team, you know, and the whole team, I mean, even what Mitchell said the other day, right?

1:19:28You've got a team of guys who somehow are just hearts on their sleeves. You know, Jalen is the only one who's kind of guarded, even on his own podcast. He's still guarded. He's the leader, but everyone else in the team, they're the opposite of guarded. They just let you know what they're thinking and what they're feeling. And, um, they're in it. I Brunson who will like argue with somebody. And yeah, it's, um, it's really been an incredible thing to watch and, and we, you know, it's so hard to put together a possible championship team

1:20:01Bill Simmons:without one of the best five guys in the league. Cause that really the last time that was the last team that was able to do this was that Oh four Pistons team. The Knicks have nobody. I don't think anybody who's been first team on NBA. So like, let's say if they win four more, I think Jalen got no votes for first team. He was never, he was never going to, I had a vote. He was never, it was Kate or Jalen for the last spot. Once Luca became eligible, Jalen was second team, but the Knicks were, it wasn't a disappointing season, but it wasn't like the greatest regular season either. Right. It was, I think there was as many questions as answers heading into the playoffs, they were like 7-1 just to even win the East.

1:20:47Bill Simmons:I don't think a ton of people were picking them and people really weren't sure. I think what was so shocking was how this became this selfless, old-school, Bill Bradley-era Knicks team over the last 11 games. Even watching somebody like Towns just not care about his field goal attempts anymore and just be like, I'm just here to rebound, make some good passes and not have dumb fouls and then makes all these incredible shots. But I think that, yeah, I think this is great. So you say the thing about the top five players, you know, um, well, you could argue if he wins the title, he then becomes a top five player, but nobody thinks that way now player in the league.

1:21:28But I also think what you said about leadership, maybe it's, you gotta be a top, but cause if he is the best leader currently, cause Steph, but they're out of the place. He is currently like the best leader in a way. The team has taken on his characteristics, meaning the team, his character, really, because he is a guy who will sacrifice. He'll sacrifice his body. He'll keep getting up. He'll keep trying to write. How many fourth quarters has he had after games when he hasn't necessarily shot the ball well?

1:21:56Bill Simmons:And that's the big thing is that I never feel like the Knicks are out of a game when they're down 15 because of him. You know, it's like, here we go. OK. And he just he is a guy. I was, I mean, I asked you this earlier, um, because it is a great thing, the texting, right? You and I have been texting about the Knicks since as long as we've had text, the ability to text and known each other over 20 years now. And, um, even I texted you in the first, uh, game of the Hawks series to be like when Jalen had that opening quarter, that was so incredible, you know? And, and it's like, uh, this guy to me, you know, sometimes even Nick fans will get on him and I don't understand it.

1:22:35And they'll say, share the ball. And I, on the one hand, it's part of that thing of feeling like all these years of being disappointed. But when I watch this kid, I don't see a guy who is selfish. I see somebody who knows his job is to take charge of the game. And whether that means take charge of it by scoring, take charge of it by making a great pass, take charge of it by taking a charge. He's just willing to do whatever it takes. And I think the other guys see that.

1:23:03Bill Simmons:Yeah. And they get the charges are a big piece of that. that too. Yeah, he does. You know, he's not the best defender, but he is in the right places all the time and he fights, which is really, you know, all you can ask for it. The Brunson centric thing, I do feel like something shifted the last three, four weeks where once, whatever that little wrinkle is of moving towns away from the basket and running stuff through him, it just made them less predictable because I felt like they had the same issues that you'll sometimes see with Luka teams. You always see with the great Harden teams that never made it.

1:23:37Bill Simmons:The Celtics would get like this. You could kind of predict what they're going to do every play. And I think in a series that becomes hard because you're just doing the same thing seven games in a row and teams get used to it. I felt like what was going on with the Knicks with now I don't really know what you're going to do. And now you're running as much as possible. You're getting these fast break points that you know, you would kind of come and go. And all of a sudden it felt like this complete team overnight. Well, whatever happened when we were down to one, you know, that's the only time in this playoffs.

1:24:09Got dark. I, you know, I thought we were going to lose game one when we were down in this series, but I didn't think we were going to lose the series, not even for a second. Um, but when we were down to one, I really did feel like I so supported the Mike Brown move, bringing him in. It made total sense to me, but I doubted it when we were down to one. And I was like, I don't understand how we got here. And then seeing what they did, because 2-1 felt bad, right? It felt like the past in a way. And that was the one moment that I wavered. And in the whole thing, like in the last four years, that's like the one moment.

1:24:50Because once they brought Jalen in, I thought Wes and Leon have just proven it. They put this squad together. They know. I'm in their hands. but down to one, I became just like all the commentators who take shots at them. And I, you know, I, I should have, I wish I would have had more faith in that moment, but that was the moment when I was like, what is this? You know? And then though, seeing what happened in the next game and the next game, I was like, right. Don't ever fucking doubt this guy and this squad. We may not win when B, you know, you got the two, I mean, a lot of people would say the two best players in the NBA.

1:25:28Um, a lot of people already saying when these cano come down as the best player in the history of the NBA. And, um, it does seem hard, but I have the faith, man. I just totally, um, I'm full tug McGraw. You got to believe.

1:25:43Bill Simmons:And now it's time for Eric comp brought to you by new era, the official cap of the NBA. We know today's players are incredible. We know they shaped a lot of the styles of the players watching today. They shaped the game we were watching today, the new era NBA hardwood classics collection celebrates those iconic moments and the players who made them unforgettable. So we'll put era side by side, two thousands. And now I was thinking two, two good ones for this. One is Stefan Castle, who I feel like you could have just easily thrown into the Pacers Pistons, 2003, 2004 Bloodbath series that they had.

1:26:24Bill Simmons:And he could have played for either team and given you like some of what Steven Jackson was giving you in that series or a little Tayshaun Prince. But just, I felt like he just would have been happy in that series. But the big comp, let's go Wemby and Yao. I feel like Yao has just been completely forgotten. Only played eight seasons. His body broke down as it went along. But there was a moment with Yao when we started to wonder, you know, could this guy take over the week someday. I think he got, I think he got up to probably 25 and 10 at one point, but, um, he was seven foot six. He didn't move like Wemby does.

1:27:01Bill Simmons:He was a pure center, but had that same kind of overpowering, holy crap. How is anybody going to defend this guy when he was close to the basket? Uh, and unlike Wemby was just carrying so much more weight. It was harder for him to move up and down when you saw him in person. Um, it was just, it was like, man, I don't know how long and this one's going to last. And that's the difference with Wemby. When you watch Wemby in person, even though he's an alien and he's subfoot seven, the way he moves is just different. It just seems there's an athleticism to him. There's a grace to him. He carries his weight the right way.

1:27:38Bill Simmons:It doesn't seem like he's carrying too much weight. But I thought, yeah, there was a moment there when it really seemed like it would have been shocking if Yao didn't win a title. Anyway, relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection. Available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 5950 or adjustables like the 940 A-frame and 970 and some great hardwood classics apparel too. Here's what you have to do. Visit neweracap.com slash ringer to shop now. And you can use one-time code ringer for 20 % off your first order.

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1:29:38Bill Simmons:AI-powered screening interviews. Its conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. No recruiter jargon needed. Nearly 60 % of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent. Hire right the first time. Get started by posting your first job for free at linkedin.com slash Simmons. That's linkedin.com slash Simmons. Terms and conditions apply. I want to pour some settle down juice on everyone who says Brunson, if they win the title is the best Nick ever, because that's a classic recency bias thing and really does a disservice to just go read up on Walt Frazier for like five minutes.

1:30:20Bill Simmons:But with that said, I do think he has a chance to be the most beloved Nick ever, right? Which is an interesting conversation. Right there with Clyde. Clyde is still so beloved. I gotta be honest. that mid-80s Bernard, even though it was a blip, was... That's my favorite, as you know, that's my favorite Nick of all time. But I think he's in the conversation. I just don't think it lasted long enough. But to me, it's like Clyde, Bernard, and then Willis because of coming out and dragging his leg around in a game seven. But I think Brunson making the finals, people are at least allowed to have the conversation now.

1:30:59Bernard King, April 27th, 1984. for my 18th birthday bernard uh against the pistons when isaiah had one of the great

1:31:09Bill Simmons:games ever one of the best playoff games ever but bernard had a better game and we won in five and it was one of the greatest if you go like like that game's available go watch that game and you'll understand what bernard king was able to do that said it it you're right uh right now, the most beloved Knicks are those guys. Jeremy Lynn is one of the most beloved Knicks. He really is. Uh, but jail by for me, but, but, uh, and I mean, I'm 60 years old now. I turned 60 this year and I love Jeremy Lynn for what he gave us for those three weeks. But yeah, Jalen Brunson, that's the, that's, that's the top guy.

1:31:48Bill Simmons:He hit the final stage in the game one Cleveland game where they're down 22 and there's seven and a half minutes left and it's a wrap. You shouldn't be watching. And normally sometimes when we'll do the pod, when we have to go live, I'll text whoever the guest is and our producers. I'll be like, hey, let's go with three minutes. Like this game's going to be done. Did not, as I mentioned that night, did not send the text because it's like, can't at least see what happens here with the Knicks. What was interesting about it is how the crowd, everyone was locked in kind of waiting to see if it would unfold over the next couple of minutes like it did with Brunson.

1:32:25Bill Simmons:My son, Sammy, never lost the faith. They were down 18 and they were recognizing what was happening. And that's like the final level of being really, really great in those situations. Sammy never lost the faith. I did. I didn't think we were coming back. Really? It was really an incredible. I didn't think so. Against James Harden? Well, that's a good point. Oh, can you explain this to me? But Sam never lost faith for one second, which I was very proud of him that he didn't lose faith. What do you make of Harden just saying, I still think we're the better team? I don't know what to say. When people say, after a sweep, when you say that, that almost feels like an IQ test.

1:33:03Bill Simmons:You can say it if it's a 4-3, and even if it's a 4-2 and you completely blew three of the four, but if you get swept and you roll over in a game four to the point that the announcers at halftime bark, it was just clowning them at halftime. Like, you can't say you were a better team. No, what a, I mean, I watched every second of that game last night and watching them just not even, I don't want to say not care because they're professional athletes. I'm sure they did care, but just they kept getting beat down court over and over again on those rebounds. That felt like one of those games when you play in high school when the other team was so much better coached than you.

1:33:41And you would just be looking behind like, how did that guy get down there again? You know, I mean, I remember those, I can remember playing in those kinds of games and just feeling like totally they were completely out out man and out out class it was a wrap but yeah it was a weird one this feels like jalen brunson i'm trying to find the the sports analog for this guy he has just the greatest characteristics of so many he's almost like uh he's almost like the way brad gilbert would constantly win and he was four in the world and no one could believe he was four in the world in tennis but he just would like get to i mean he was there was a time brad gilbert was the fourth number four player in the world.

1:34:18And that may be where this guy finds himself.

1:34:22Bill Simmons:Yeah, I remember when you pitched us a 30 episode Brad Gilbert narrative podcast, we had to turn it down. I know you're so fascinated by Brad Gilbert. I just wanted you to co-host. And I remember you said, you could only do every other episode. And then I said, well, Mallory do the other ones. And you were like, I don't know if I can lend her for that. And then that blew up the whole thing, which was a drag. Here's the thing with Brunson. And I think you need this when you have the amount of baggage that a team like the Knicks have. Right. You almost need some sort of supernatural human being event to make people who are prone just not to believe anymore to flip their minds.

1:34:56Bill Simmons:For the Red Sox, it was Ortiz. It was Ortiz in 04. Just the slow realization over the course of those four Yankee comeback games that we had Ortiz and there was something magical about this guy. Brunson, now whether he can keep this going for the finals. We'll see. But Brunson at least has done that for the Knick fans where they're not thinking about what's the worst case scenario. Because the thing we didn't talk about was that Halliburton game a year ago where it's like all the skeletons come out of the poltergeist pool in that game. It's like, wait, I thought we were past this. Oh yeah. We haven't won since 73.

1:35:34I was there. I mean, yeah, yeah, uh, that was just a brutal, um, that series almost crushed me. But, but the truth is, and that's obviously why Tibbs is gone and that, but that didn't, um, that didn't actually dim my enthusiasm for this team. Um, every move these guys were like, I was upset when they traded Dante because I thought the three guys together was so important, like to have the core from Villanova and, but they were right. Like they're just right. Leon and Wes are just right a lot. And that is such an odd thing to think about people running this team.

1:36:17Bill Simmons:It's not that odd. And I wonder like if I'm an owner, if I was an owner for a losing team, I would have meetings trying to figure out, okay, here are the four teams, the three teams, the two teams that succeeded this year. Why? What are the reasons? And if I'm looking at the Knicks and I'm thinking like, well, how did they put this team together? Because they hired guys who were like relationships guys. They were guys that in the other business they had, which were, you know, they're basically player agents, representatives, and they're targeting people from age 15, 16, 17, 18. They're making bets on people.

1:36:50Bill Simmons:They're trying to, they're not just looking at talent. They're looking at how somebody behaves, what their background was, you know, how, what their work ethic is, how competitive they are, because ultimately they're betting on those guys as representatives because they're getting a 10 % cut of everything they make. Right. Of course. So you're betting on, you want to bet on like the safest competitive talents and that it's not really much different than putting together a team. So if I was an owner, I would be like, who are the other agents we can get? who else sees the world like this and could potentially put together a group of people like this well they really had skin in the game and one other thing about wes because you said the thing about look leon's not going to talk to the press don't worry about it but one of the other things right but one of the things wes does do is he walks around the garden wes is a visible presence and not in a not in the i'm shadowing i'm lingering over the bench to put pressure no the other thing where he walks around like, yeah, we have it all on the line.

1:37:55Like he shows himself, you know, so many people hide in the front office and in the back and they, the second halftime comes, they duck into the Wes is like out there and not just down in the front row. Like he walks around the ring in between and talks to people and people shouted him and he engages with people. And I do think, and that may be from being an agent too, right? Being in with people, being comfortable with people, knowing how to make deals. But it does instill a sense of, oh, these guys have something on the line here. Like, yeah, they're saying something about what they're doing.

1:38:30So they put the pieces together, but it's almost like, but they also have advantages

1:38:34Bill Simmons:of, they've known Brunson forever because of the relationship with the dad. They've known talent since he was 15 years old. Ann and Obi was the CAA guy. Like they have real opinions on these guys because they have a whole background. Whereas like, if you're just a typical GM and you're looking at it more like the way you and I would look at it, like Zach Levine, what's he about? And we're just like on his basketball reference. But all these things broke the right way. Like, okay, Ananobi, as you know, his injury, but Ananobi from the moment he came here, he was so great. Anytime he was playing in the garden, I don't know how much you felt in the garden.

1:39:06Like the garden loves, they love him. Like we love that guy as a, as a fan, you know, as fans in, in, in the garden, but other things like, like Bridges showing up with that completely changed jumper last year and everyone being kind of freaked out, but almost like when tiger changed his swing, it's like, don't worry at the right time, it's going to peak. And then like, cause it was, the jumper was ugly and he missed so much, but he knew what he was doing because like, think about how it's paying off now. So it's almost like everything that's happened, these guys really just all know what they're doing.

1:39:43And it's very humbling. You know, it's the thing you wish some of the commentators would understand. Like sometimes these experts, sometimes they do know something like the people in the game. And, you know, I don't want to call out a certain self-identified big New York Knicks fan who's on ESPN, always saying a lot of bullshit about the Knicks, but it seems like these people do know what they're doing. And Jalen Brunson is the real thing. And we're in the championship.

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1:41:27Bill Simmons:Thanks for fitting me in the rotation. I hadn't done a pod in like two years. And then Cody Rhodes asked me to do a podcast. And as you know, his dad, second favorite wrestler of all time. And I love Cody. Got to do that. Got to do the pod. And then once I did it, another friend asked. But listen to me, Bill Simmons. It's always, who put me in the podcast game to start? Wait, I have one last thing before. Much to the chagrin. No, I don't want to. I'm not saying goodbye yet. You got it now. You have a new Vegas show. Yes. There was all this stuff written about it. last week. We start shooting in seven weeks.

1:42:01Bill Simmons:You and Levine are back in Vegas. We are back in Vegas. Everyone in America wants to know what part I'm playing. It's been everywhere I go, people are asking me. I heard about the boys have a new show in Vegas. Are you just going to have a cameo? Is it going to be like you're playing a blackjack dealer? Are you going to play yourself? I don't know. I'm in your hands. I mean, let's figure it out. What do you think? Do you want to put on a pork pie hat and be your gambler down on his luck? You want to be a dealer who's taking satisfaction in someone losing a little kill. Can I be like a struggling actor who used to be famous but got a gambling problem?

1:42:38Bill Simmons:And now I'm just kind of... I don't know. I'm open for anything. Yeah. You know what we'll do? We'll put that version on the Ocho. And then... Right? We'll put it on the Ocho. And then, yeah. You can totally do that. So you did Rounders, Tilt, The Ill-Fated Tilt. Ocean's 13. this is the fourth one now in the whole gambling universe although there was some dabbling in billions yeah there was some poker in billions but the cast we haven't announced all the cast but Oscar Isaac Alec Baldwin, David Costable Betty Gilpin and there's some people David Costable, your old guy yeah, gotta have we're never going to battle without Costi but the cast is incredible, Oscar is going to crush it in this part Damon Cameo?

1:43:27Bill Simmons:Can you get them? I mean, listen, like just a slip by. I feel like this kills rounders too, but I'm fine with it. Everybody says, you know what? I'll call you, you conference in Matt and we'll take it from there. All right. Well, I'm happy for everything that's going on with you. Say hi to all your Nick fan friends. I know this has been a long journey. I'm just happy you're happy. In honor of William. Well, like you said, I wasn't going to do it because I didn't want to jinx anything. I didn't want it, but here's the thing. You were right. You said two things. You said, one, I should celebrate being in the championship series.

1:43:59And having a lovable Knicks team. But also in honor of William Goldman, who you loved and I loved too. And when you said that he had 99 and that's the last time he saw him in the championship series. And so I just shout out, bring me the greatest screenwriter who ever lived, the great William Goldman and a wonderful man and one of the great Knicks fans of all time. He's watching over us. Right up there with Spike Lee. He's watching over this. Thanks, Koppelman. thanks man talk to you soon bye

1:44:29Bill Simmons:alright that's it for the podcast thanks to Tim Legler thanks to my friend Brian Koppelman congrats to all the Knicks fans out there here's the schedule for me I'm coming back live on Thursday night after game 6 you can watch it on Netflix or you can listen to it watch it whenever you want on Spotify and if there's a game 7 we will be going live on Saturday night for game 7 OKC San Antonio. So that is the schedule. Don't forget new rewatchables went up Animal House and we have 2001 A Space Odyssey coming next week, either Sunday or Monday, depending on what happens with game seven. I will see you later in the week.

1:45:10Bill Simmons:Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867. Good energy in. Good energy out.

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