Ageless LeBron, Kawhi’s Crazy Career and NFL Draft Burning Questions With Zach Lowe and Peter Schrager

26:14Those two guys make sense together. What if he starts getting hurt within a couple months after that trade and now LeBron has no running mate and that just goes. It's ridiculous to even suggest this, Bill. Nothing like that ever falls into the Lakers' laps. It doesn't happen. They don't just get stars. They go to their team like shockingly. It doesn't happen. What if COVID doesn't happen is a really good what if for really a bunch of different people in 2020. But especially when you think about where the league was at that moment, Milwaukee was kicking everybody's ass. The Lakers and Clippers were the two best teams in the West.

26:46And it felt like there were three teams and then everyone else. And we were headed toward this LA versus LA. Then the COVID, the bubble, things get weird, whatever. And then, you know, the last one is what if he stays healthy in 2021 when he gets hurt? And then Paul George elevates. But I forgot this. He played 11 playoff games that year in 2011. And he averaged 30 a game in the playoff games. Seven against Dallas and four against Utah. Four against Utah. And then kind of left. I went to the game where he kind of left near the end of the game. It's like, uh-oh, that's not great. Well, can we just stop for a second?

27:21Yeah. We shouldn't slow down on it. We should slow down at a couple of things. Yeah. The first one is the bubble and COVID. Because I picked the Clippers to win the championship that year. And we learned pretty quickly, even during the bubble and then after, that no team wanted to be there less than the Clippers. And they just completely... I don't know that I've ever seen a team let go of the rope like that, like they did against Denver. Like they wanted to leave over trying to win the title, seemed to be a feeling that was pretty pervasive. and 2021 he gets hurt against utah um the series is 2-2 when he gets hurt and they end up winning the series the end essentially the end of the jazz of the mitchell gobert you know iteration they had one more year after that but everyone knew it was kind of over um we just like i i that 45 point game six to save the clipper season and remember that series against dallas they get rolled the first two games in la they're down like a million points in game three in dallas and it It just feels like it's over.

28:23They saved the season. They're still down 3-2 in game six. And he plays one of the best games I've ever seen anyone play. 18 of 25, 13 of 16 at the line, 45 points, and the usual defense. And single-handedly wins the game and saves their season. Then he follows it up with a whole hum 28-10-9 in game seven. That's one of the best games. That's up there with any game I've ever seen anybody play. I just wanted to say that. Just slow down and say that game. Well, and then you think from a Quipper standpoint, the most tortured NBA franchise we have. And 21 is just wide open. You look back at that season, it's like Bucs team that I'm not even sure was the best Bucs team.

29:04The Suns make it, right? And I think there's a bunch of teams that are like, oh, we could have beaten that if this had happened or this had happened or this had happened. And that ends up being our finals and the Bucs wins. But Bucs win. But I think the 22 Bucs team, you could make a case if Middleton's healthy that year. they're probably a better team than the 21 team. So anyway, a whole bunch of what-ifs. From the what-if career standpoint, Walton's still number one for me because he just wins multiple titles in the late 70s and goes down as one of the best 15 guys ever. He, Kawhi is second.

29:39And then my other two for my lifetime were Andrew Toney, who really only played five years and then his feet went on him. But I just think would have been a Hall of Fame two-guard and probably the second best two-guard in the league behind Jordan. And then Bernard King was the other one. He was 28 years old when he blew out his knee. He was averaging 33 a game that year, which in mid-80s standards is like 40. And came back, but was never really the same, but he was the forward-scoring Michael Jordan of that era. And then the only other one I have is Yao. I'm glad you brought up Yao, because I want to bring him up later.

30:13It's like, ah, man, we kind of forget that Yao only played like eight years. Ralph Sampson? Samson's a good one. I don't, I'm not sure he knew where, yeah, he got hurt, but I'm not, I've always felt like he spent four years in college and then it's like, am I a center? Why am I on the perimeter this much? I'm never sure he totally figured that out from like a ceiling standpoint. Yao could have been 23 and 10 for like 15 years, but I think the China national team murdered him. And then there's some other ones. There's like the TMAC and C-Web, but those are guys like, they had good careers and they got hurt a little bit later.

30:49but I think those are my five anybody else you have? Well there are some, it depends how how what if you want to I mean Len Bias never played in the NBA but were working so I'm glad you brought up Yao because I just did, to point to your point about how unique Kawhi's career is, I just did a search on basketball reference, people in the Hall of Fame with player efficiency ratings for their career. PER, everyone craps on it now. It's like a useful, like, if I just need a catch-all, like, was this guy good? How was he, right? Yeah. PER above 22 for their career. Kawhi's regular season is 23.2, I think.

31:29Because I wanted to see how many guys Hall of Fame, that elite level, and how many played fewer than Kawhi, minutes-wise. I think Kawhi's at about 23 ,000 career regular season minutes. There's only three guys in the Hall of Fame that meet that PER standard and played fewer minutes than Kawhi. One is George Mikan, okay, like original NBA dinosaur, but innovator, ABA commissioner, all that. One is Neil Johnston, 50s Philadelphia Warriors player, probably made your book of basketball. Bill Russell kind of took him out. And the third is Yao Ming. And so that was a name that I thought of right away.

32:06Even before I did that search, he only played 15 ,818 career minutes. But obviously, unlike Yao, Kawhi is a multi-time champion, multi-time finals MVP. There's just, there's, and then you go right, and then there's a, Neil Johnson played 18 ,300 minutes. And then there's a 10 ,000 minute jump to the next guy on this list. And it's Dr. J, who obviously played in the ABA too. So he's got other, like there's just, there's a 10 ,000 minute gap between those two guys. And Kawhi's right in the middle of it. Well, and then you think there's only three guys who ever won finals MVP for two teams. and the other two are LeBron and Kareem.

32:43I have my 42 club that I still stand by as one of the dumbest but accurate. Wait, is that the one that cuts off Karl Malone? Yeah, I got to 42 because it was the best way to cut off as many Karl Malone seasons as possible. Points, rebounds, and assists. Poor guy. Sorry, Karl. No, don't be sorry. If you go 42 club who made the finals since Michael Jordan, Shaq has three, LeBron has six, Kobe once in 0-1 Iverson once in 0-1 didn't win the title Duncan in 0-3 45.4 Kawhi in 19 45.4 Giannis in 21 48.1 Jokic in 23 53.5 and Luka last year 47.0 gives you a sense of first of all how great that 19th season was but then also like that's where we are and the only outlier in all that is probably Iverson who just, he took a ton of shots, but wasn't like a points, rebounds, assist like some of these other ones.

33:49Even Kobe only made it once. And then the other thing with Kawhi, well, how many guys have gone from incredible glue guy to awesome A-plus-less scorer? I was trying to think, like, SGA. Kawhi was a better glue guy than SGA. but where you thought their career was going to be one thing and then it became something completely different. How many guys can you think of who were like, wow, I just didn't see this because we were working together and we were going to those finals games. I never thought Kawhi would be a guy who averaged 30 a game in the playoffs. That was inconceivable. Well, I remember after the first Spurs heat final that the Spurs lose the Ray Allen game and all that.

34:41he had moments in that series. I don't have his game log up in front of me now, but he had moments in that series where it was like, ooh, something's interesting is happening with this Kawhi. He's guarding LeBron. Okay, fine. He's a great defensive player. Actually, let me bring up his game log as I'm talking, but he's guarding LeBron. He's guarding LeBron comfortably, by the way. Yeah, and LeBron respects him already. And now he has games. I'm looking at here. Here's his last three games of those 2013 finals. 13 or 14? 13, the one they lose to Miami. 16 points on six of eight shooting, 22 points and 11 rebounds on nine of 14 shooting.

35:20Game seven, 19. He misses a big free throw in game six, obviously. People remember that. 19 and 16 on eight of 17 in game seven. 45 minutes, 46 minutes a game before. He has double digit rebounds in five of the seven games. And I remember before the next season, I wrote a piece about this. for Grantland, this guy is the biggest X factor in the league this year. And it was the only time I think I ever got a one-on-one interview with Kawhi. I called the Spurs. I was like, hey, I'm writing all about this kid. They keep as a kid back then, whatever. And I remember their PR guy, Tom James, was like, this will be your one for the year.

35:57Don't call and ask for pop. He was being polite about it, but you know how the Spurs are. I was like, you're not getting pop. This will be the one, but I think it's a good idea. You should do it. And then he ends up winning finals MVP making me look really, really smart. But you could see enough in that first finals where it was like, okay, something different is going on. Something more is here. But again, to be an MVP candidate and a guy who, we'll go through his playoff numbers. But even in the 2014 finals, I don't think you could see that coming. He was kind of like MVP by, you had to pick a spur.

36:31And he was - Yeah, nobody, it was such a team win. And he did, LeBron's numbers are actually pretty good. when you look back at that series, but he did a good job of at least going toe-to-toe with LeBron, which is why I think he won, and his stats are good. He was in an interesting spot there the first couple years we were working together where he was the go-to guy if you were talking about, you know who I really love? And he was the guy. Like, who's that now in 2025 where the, you know who I really love? It would have been like... It's like a Jalen Johnson, but on a better team. It could have been like Evan Mobley or Cade Cunningham before this year.

37:06Right, right. maybe not even quite that. But he didn't have the pedigree of those guys, right? But it was one of those things coming out of the gate where they were like, yeah, there's something here with this guy. But I always thought his, I thought he was going to be Pippen. And Pippen was a better, like, kind of passer, creator than him. He had the ball more than Kawhi did. But to me, the best, still to this day, the best three perimeter players I've ever seen in person. And maybe, maybe a man Thompson can get here. Wow. Maybe. I don't know. What is he, 22? But the best I've ever seen in person, Pippen won, Kawhi, and Rodman.

37:44If I'm just talking about, I need a long athletic perimeter to shut down this score. Who am I picking? Those are the three guys. And then after that, we can argue. But those three guys have to be on the list. Is there anybody else you would add? For defense, I'd have to sit and think about it for a second. about, I mean, you know, Gary Payton wasn't big enough to be in this conversation, right? Like, is it? You're talking about guys who could guard everybody from LeBron James to Tony Parker. Like, you just, anybody basically from 6 '1 to 6 '10, they can handle. And also, maybe even, like, you could throw Kawhi at Jokic at this point, and it's not, like, crazy.

38:23I'll give you this one, too. Like, I'm going to, I sound like an old man. It's not that long ago. But, like, he's still a very good defender now. If he were healthy and played the whole year, he'd be in the all-defense conversation. He's still that good. Peak Kawhi, 2016-18-19 Defensive Player of the Year candidate Kawhi, was legitimately terrifying. And to the point that he would turn entire games by himself, steal, dunk, block, dunk, steal, three-pointer. and be like, what just happened? Did that one guy just go on a 9-0 run? And I remember the most underrated playoff series, I think, maybe anyone has ever played, is that year Kawhi against Memphis in 2017 in the first round.

39:15Like a ho-hum Memphis team. The Spurs should have won that series. He was incredible in that series and did everything for that team. And just people can go back and look it up. But remember the Ben McLemore thing? I think he ruined Ben McLemore's career because Ben McLemore tried to dribble within like a 10 foot radius of Kawhi and Kawhi just took the ball out of his hands two possessions in a row and went and dunked on the other end I wanted to write a story about that I approached Ben McLemore's people once and I was like can I write this story and they're like eh I don't think he wants to talk about that but he's still not ready but he ended up writing something different about him he was a very sweet guy and had an interesting arc to his career but like peak Kawhi, if you were not like an A-level dribbler, you could not dribble anywhere near him.

40:03You would just take the ball from you. Well, I remember one of my last pieces I wrote for Grantland, we did this art drawing because I was talking, we were talking about how Kawhi was like an octopus. He hit this level the second half of that 2015 season coming off the finals MVP. And that second half of the season where there was a lot of storylines going, right? Like Curry, the Warriors are winning 67 games. Curry's about to win an MVP. Blake has become one of the best five guys in the league. LeBron's in his first Cleveland season. Harden is starting to really kick ass on Houston. And it felt like this sea change of like this new generation of guys taking over, kind of taking the steering wheel of the league.

40:46And then Kawhi was in there just wrecking everybody. And I remember we did this octopus drawing of him. and you can find it probably in one of the last grand, but Kawhi's face on this octopus because he would just kind of be on the court. He'd be like, I'm just going to take the ball. And he'd just go over and grab the ball. You could see the moment when he would decide, actually, I think I can just get the ball. You're dribbling it like everything's normal. How about I just take it? I'm just going to grab it. So that stretch he had on the Spurs, basically from the second half of 15, 16, 17, leading to him stepping on Zaza's foot.

41:23he was as good as any. And we have Durant humming on OKC at that point. We have kind of the last stages of Carmelo. We have LeBron on Cleveland. We have a lot of good forwards. And it's just this amazing forward stretch. I have him. I was thinking most talented small forwards in my lifetime. Just talented. I'm not going best career in that stuff. And LeBron's one and Bird's two. And then Kawhi versus Durant, if you're just talking Apex, it's a pretty good argument. That's almost a 3A, 3B thing. Durant's had a better career because he was more durable. I don't know the answer. It's actually kind of amazing and speaks to how great he was during that five or six year stretch.

42:09That he's a six time all star. Because it doesn't feel like he's been healthy enough in his prime to be a six time all star. It's just when he's minimally healthy, it's so obvious that he's one of the five to eight best players in the league that he just makes the all-star team every year the durant one is interesting durant's got the height and the quick twitch shooting from any any range ability this the bulk and defense uh and just you can't move him at all that kawai brings both of them are their assist numbers durant's probably a little higher but broadly similar and that they're not a primary creator they're more a secondary creator I mean it's an interesting four assist range it's an interesting it's an interesting one well one other thing with both of them there was a little bit of a Swiss army knife with each where I felt like you could play Kawhi at either forward spot and get away with it right you could play Durant I mean you weren't it's not awesome to play him at small forward but you could do it but really you could he has the ability to either go you go stretch five with him and just go smaller or you can play him with a center it was just to more flexibility in a lineup than maybe LeBron had up until later in his career, where LeBron was like, he needed certain things around him.

43:22Those guys you could kind of mold, whatever your roster is, you could kind of mold them a little bit. But I really think those are the four best, quote unquote, small forwards I've seen in my lifetime. These are great names. Can I just read you another list of things I got from Best Ball reference do it searching around i'm ready uh i just did um playoffs these are playoff numbers again per is not a perfect stat good catch-all kawai's career playoff pr is 24.3 it's higher than his regular season wow that that alone is an accomplishment by the way well for a perimeter guy that's really high if you can maintain your efficiency stat if you're an elite player and you can just maintain your regular season efficiency into the better competition of the playoffs that alone is an accomplishment to go up a mini level is a big big deal so i did above uh 24 per at least 4 000 minutes in the playoffs why is it 5 2009 i think so you got to have been there a decent amount of time and you maintain a 24 efficiency 24 per eight guys total have ever done it and i'll go in order of their player efficiency ratings number one michael jordan 28.6 Number two, LeBron James, 27.9.

44:38Number three, Shaq, 26.1. Number four, I still think for my money, maybe the most criminally underrated player in the history of the NBA, Hakeem Olajuwon, 25.7. Not by me, not in this house. Number five is a tie at 24.3, and it's just too good that it's a tie. Tim Duncan and Kawhi Leonard. Wow. And then right below them at 24.2 is Barkley, who has the fewest playoff minutes of this group. And right below Barkley is Durant at 24 flat. And that's it. That's the whole list. The legend's not in there? I'll look up his playoff PR. I mean, I know I should have anticipated your level of concern. The last couple of years were a little rocky.

45:22He's wearing the back brace. Career PR in the playoffs. Probably like 23? 21.4. Ah, the legend. But he's got a 26, a 24. I mean, it's different. PR is it, yeah. Well, I have my own basketball reference list. You had to play at least 20 games in a playoff season. Okay. You had to score at least 30 points. Per game. Per game. And you had to get at least six rebounds. Here's that list. So 30, hold on. 30 and six in at least 20 games. 20 plus games. You're making the finals. You're making the finals. Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, Kawhi, LeBron again, Giannis, LeBron a third time, Jokic.

46:15That's our list. I mean, when you said top 15 earlier in the podcast, I mean, again, you're getting into sacred territory there in my initial - You're at least near Durant. Yeah. You're in that dirt. You're above. You're right around Dirk. You know, you're in the Dirk, maybe a little edge above Dirk, and you're in the Durant area. It's pretty sacred territory. And now that we're going through these lists, I can't argue against it. The what if is that severe and the what if ceiling is that high. Your guy, Hakeem, 95, 22 playoff games. 33 points a game, 10.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists. If you're criminally underrating Hakeem, you can go to hell.

47:08You know who's not criminally underrating Hakeem from 1995? David Robinson. Or Shaquille O 'Neal. Yeah, or Shaq, that's right. Or either of those guys. Yeah, two couple other quick things with him. Three first-team OMBs, three second-team OMBs, that's it for Kawhi because he kept getting hurt. You could say he's responding. That's still like a lot. That's a lot. It's a lot. It's a nice one. You could say he's responsible for title teams in San Antonio, Toronto, and maybe Oklahoma City this year. Because he wants the Clippers. I'm only coming to the Clippers if you give me Paul George and that leads to...

47:49Lots of stuff that's still going on. The last 10 years of the playoff games, including the two that we've just had, 2016 through the 25 playoffs, he's 28-8. 51 % shooting, 39 % from three, 88%. 66 games. It's a 10-year stretch. Kept getting hurt. And then, oh, in the 2019 Raptors, 30-9, four assists, 49 % field goal for the whole playoffs. But here's the other thing with him. And this is crazy. 733 regular season games total. That's his career, which seems low considering he was in the 2011 draft. 726 winning percentage all time. Six. It's Tim Duncan 2.0. It's incredible the symmetry of those two guys.

48:35So here's the list. Magic, Bird, Casey Jones, Cooper, Tommy Heinsohn, Kawhi, Duncan, Sam Jones, Russell is our top nine. So a bunch of Celtics. When I play, my team wins almost 73 % of the time, and yet I can't stay on the court. And by the way, there are Clipper fans probably listening to this going, You motherfuckers. He's going to get hurt in game three because you guys did this segment. But there's never been a career like this where he might be, he might end up being like the best guy in the West for the next, you know, this round and the next two, which, you know, I didn't see. You talked about giving up on this.

49:16I gave up on giving up on this. I was like three levels beyond giving up on this. Even when he came back during the season, I was like, all right, this is stupid. He's just going to get hurt again. Even as you're watching the Clippers finish at whatever, 16 and whatever, they've had an incredible last 35 games. Yeah. And he looks incredible. And you are saying out loud what is completely reasonable, which is that, in your opinion, this is the second best team in the Western Conference. And I'm watching it, and I'm like, yeah, that makes total sense. And my brain just can't even, it still puts them over here in like a separate category of the standings just because I just never believed we would see it again.

50:01I wouldn't allow myself to. And again, he hasn't finished a season since 2020, but I'm glad he brought it back to this year because I think this is the coolest thing happening in basketball right now. I don't know how far this team can get if he stays healthy and plays like this, but it's minimal conference finals. I think they could beat, I don't know, I don't want to put a ceiling on it. Thunder are going to be favored against anybody. Well, I guess not minimal conference finals because they're in the Thunder's bracket. So we'll see where they can go. But would you rather catch the Thunder sooner or later?

50:34Would you rather catch the Thunder after they've just completely demolished this crappy Memphis team and now all of a sudden they're moving up in weight class? I liked, by the way, I like that one game to adjust almost. I like Drusillo's idea that if you lose by 50 or more in game one, it counts as two wins for the team. They try to push that through. But I will say, not only is this about Kawhi, I think the Clippers are the team of the year, the franchise of the year almost in the NBA. I mean, the Thunder are the obvious choice because they won 68 games and they're just incredibly well set up for now and tomorrow to a level that no team has ever been.

51:10but for the Clippers to win 50 games and be looking like this in the postseason after they lost Paul George and everyone including me just wrote this entire era off is now we're just killing time until we pivot into a rebuild and we get our picks back it'll be cool we were saying like you're only doing this because you have a new arena this is fool's gold you just want to bring people in and make them feel okay that they can recognize a couple players and the front office was like actually I think we signed some pretty good role players in free agency and we have a lot of faith in Zubats to make another level and if Kawhi ever can play and we're doing our best we feel like we're still like a pretty and they didn't I don't even think they expected I think they thought we could be like a cool 46 win tough as nails defensive oriented team and for them to be this is incredible it's an incredible job by the coaching staff Ty Lue Jeff Van Gundy the whole staff it's I think they're like the franchise of the year in the NBA maybe be second to the thunder, I guess.

52:09You can't undersell what an incredible accomplishment it is for them to be a 50-win team and going toe-to-toe with the best player in the world in a playoff series in the middle to upper half of the Western Conference bracket. It's ridiculous. Well, and they know they can play with OKC. They have a real identity, which I think is so hard to find, and there's two teams in the East that have an identity. That's it? Yeah, the Knicks do not have an identity. They just do not. Concerning first couple of games. They do not have an identity. Remember when we did that pod and I said Tibbs was my wild card?

52:47Don't be surprised. I'm feeling better about that prediction. Can I give you a third? This is supposed to be a wild card. Identity teams. Pacers. Pacers have an identity. No, good call. Okay, I'll accept it. Clippers have an identity. And unfortunately, it's built around this awesome player. And they just kind of never know with him. you know I heard Marcus Morris today I saw him on ESPN talk because he played with Kawhi and he loves him and he was like Kawhi's the first guy there like the guy works his ass off he gets this reputation that he doesn't but the guy worked as hard as any teammate I had but if you talk to people around the Clippers and Kawhi is always this thing like yeah we don't know he does his own thing he's kind of over here and we just kind of keep our fingers crossed that he's going to be awesome the difference this time versus some of the other times he just looks good.

53:38Like when you watch him, like his side to side stuff and the athleticism, it feels like it's back. He's got lift on his jumper. Like he made a couple of jumpers last night in traffic with a hand in his face and he's able to elevate now like he used to. And he just has that line drive shot he can get over anybody. And he's such a weird player. There's no player like him now who's like, I just want to get this 14 footer. I just want to get to my spot and get it and I'm going to get it. And, you know, so that's why he's always been an elite postseason player, among many other things, is that there is some truth to the idea that in the playoffs, you need a little bit more than in the regular season, at least need some guys who can get those shots.

54:19And he can get like the last shot he made last night to put the Clippers up 105, 102. I think it was. Yeah, it was the last shot of the game. The last basket of the game. They ran a pick and roll to try and get Jamal Murray switched on to him. And for maybe the first time in the entire game, the Nuggets decided, we're not giving you this switch. We're going to hedge with Jamal Murray, risk leaving the screener, who I think was Norm Powell, open and figure that part out. We're just not taking Aaron Gordon off you. And he was like, cool. Like Aaron Gordon is a tank. I'm totally cool with this. I'm still going to get to my spot.

54:52And he made that jumper from the right wing over Aaron Gordon. And it was vintage Kawhi. the height the trajectory the ease with which he got there against a defender who's one of the only guys in the league who can match his size strength and athleticism and it was just like walking the freaking park Denver was basically an underdog heading into the series Clippers were minus 118 favorites. Denver wins game one. I talked about this Sunday night. It flips just a little. Denver became a minus 118 favorite, whereas the Minnesota things flipped wildly. Now on Fando, the Clippers are minus 180 to win this series.

55:36And honestly, if you tell me, no way to know this, but if you're like, Kawhi's playing the rest of the series and he'll be at the level you're seeing, I don't see how Denver wins. I also think Denver has some real issues. It goes beyond the Westbrook stuff. It's just rocky. Like you got to be for what this Clippers team is with Kawhi. You have to be pretty sure of who you are and what you are. And the Nuggets, all they know is that Jokic is fucking awesome. And I don't think they know anything else about their team. Right? And they're beyond six guys. They don't even know who the seventh guy is.

56:06And he's getting frustrated too. Yeah. He's getting frustrated with the officials. He's been pretty demonstrative, not in a bad way, but with teammates trying to point them in the right direction. Seven turnovers, missed some big free throws in both games, including two late in game one, only six of 10 from the line yesterday. Well, doesn't he look a little worn down to you, too? I'd be worn down carrying it. I thought last night, as a giant yokage watcher, as I know you are, too, but last night, the guy seemed like he was physically beaten up last night. 20 minor injuries, nothing major, but I sound like I'm making excuses for him.

56:45He sucked last night down the stretch. He was bad. It's funny you say that because in my notes I was taking on the game. I can't remember when it was in the game, but I'm paying very close attention to every Murray Jokic pick and roll, how the Nuggets decide to guard it. Different ways, their default strategy has been X, Y, and Z. and there were two in a row, I think in the third quarter maybe, where they didn't need to do anything dramatic. They didn't even need to do their sort of usual response to it so far in this series because Jokic didn't pop to three, which is dangerous for them, and he didn't roll into floater area for like a pocket pass from Murray, which is a danger area for them.

57:30So Zubac just kind of saw it. he just sort of stood at the point of the screen, like 19 feet from the basket. And Zubats was like, oh, cool. I can just sort of drop back and play this like a normal pick a roll. And the worst case scenario is he gets a 20 foot jump shot. This is, this is a nice reprieve. And I just took note of those. Cause I was like, I, you don't see him do that very, very often. And I said in my notes, like maybe he's tired. I mean, he should be, he's playing 40 gazillion minutes every night on a team that needs him to do literally everything on offense for them to survive. Yeah.

58:02He was four for eight from three last night. I just remember it triggered me in the memories of the Minnesota series last year when I just thought he lost his legs as that series went on because they were just absolutely murdering him game after game and they had so many big bodies to throw at him. Then by the end of it, the three-pointers started to go. When he starts missing free throws, I always feel like that's a bad sign, but I just think the burden he's carrying on this team, especially not knowing if Porter's going to show up or not. Porter showed up last night and rebounded. I don't know if he's going to show up for game three.

58:34This seems like a team, and we've watched a lot of playoffs, and I'm even older than you. This seems like a team teetering on this could really go badly in these next two Clipper games. Or they'll just look, Jokic will be great in game three and be like, oh, what are we worried about? But I just feel like they're, like, if I go through every other team, like, the Knicks have real problems. We knew this. I don't really change anything I thought of the Knicks other than I was surprised how well the Pistons have played. The seven of the eight quarters, they look good. Right? They had one horrible quarter, and it's a 1-1 series.

59:07The Knicks, we knew they didn't have a bench. We knew they were going to have to play too many minutes with those guys. Denver, I could just see this going any direction now, and I think the Clippers are better than them. So we'll see with Kawhi. But I'm glad we captured this moment because... Can I just add one more Kawhi thing that is too irresistible given that this is a podcast with you? I think about Kawhi... 100 nights a year, 50 nights a year for this reason and this reason only. I don't even know if you remember this. After the 2017 season, when Russ wins the MVP and averages a triple-double, you voted for Harden, I believe, right?

59:47It was the most we've ever texted about an MVP. And you did a classic Zach rope-a-dope and you went, although I can feel you going toward Kawhi. That was one where I just felt it in my gut. But anyway, so you voted for Harden and you're so proud of the vote that I believe you had them made. You or someone in Grantland had these shirts made. I should have brought it, but it looks disgusting. What was that, Right Side of History? It's a white t-shirt and it says, 2017 MVP, Right Side of History. And it has a photo of Russ and a photo of Harden and a check mark in a box next to Harden. And now that's in my pajama rotations.

1:00:26It's one of my pajama shirts. So I look at it and it makes me smile. But it also pisses me off because I have the wrong vote for me on the shirt. I need a Kawhi version of it. I look at the shirt. Kawhi's not on it. It's the right side of history is James Harden. They're like, well, that's not my side of history, but I wear it anyway as pajamas. So I think about the 2017 MVP like a third of the year because it's pajamas. Did you vote for Harden second? Probably. I think so. I'd have to go look it up. I probably did. Yeah. That was the year like LeBron was fourth and you just felt like this is insane.

1:00:59or that this is the way this is breaking? How? Why? But that's how it broke. The LeBron MVP conversation goes every once in a while. The only one he has a case for after 2013 is the 18-1 when Harden beat him. And the numbers were around the same. I voted for Harden too, but Houston won 65 games and Cleveland... LeBron spent six straight weeks pouting and giving everyone side eyes. And that's why he didn't win, Which nobody remembers from Basketball Reference. Because he hated his team and was like, I need you to trade all these people. Basketball Reference doesn't capture that, unfortunately. But that's the one that I think people mentioned, but Harden clearly should have won that year.

1:01:40All right, Zach, you have a podcast coming Thursday? Thursday, we're going to recap everything that happens Wednesday and Tuesday, depending on which series we have time to talk about and look ahead to Games 3s and Games 4s. I think that's coming right off a Warriors-Rockets Game 2, and it's coming right off Lakers. Wolves will have a couple extra days of rest, so we'll see. If the Lakers are down 0-2, it's going to be DEFCON 1 across the airwaves, baby. Let's go. Are you on Kaminga Watch or have you just sold out your stock and given up? I'm going to keep the stock because I'm going down with the ship.

1:02:16Tim Legler and I used to joke that we needed t-shirts made that we could wear on television and the t-shirts would have just said, John, I think Kaminga is good because we both would just be like, I don't understand. We think this guy's good. Warriors fans, it's incredibly polarizing. Some of them just think he stinks. I still think he's interesting and good. But if they're not dusting him off now and they're winning games, I kind of think the ship has sailed. But you never know. The longer you would stay in the playoffs, if they get through this series, the matchups change, someone gets hurt, you never know.

1:02:49But I don't even think about him anymore, sadly. I don't think Steve Kerr does either. Zach, fantastic to see you. I'm so glad you're with us. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast early my time on Tuesday morning because Peter Schrager is about to fly to Green Bay for the NFL draft. Why are we having the NFL draft in Green Bay, the single hardest city to get to out of all the NFL cities? Why are we doing this? So hard. Planes, trains, and automobiles. I think the NFL has decided that sunny weather and new stadiums get the Super Bowl. and then cold weather, Cleveland, Philly, Detroit, Green Bay, you get the draft.

1:03:30But yes, this will be a different destination than just a direct flight on Delta to Detroit like last year. I forgot to introduce you as ESPN's Peter Schrader. Oh, yeah. The worldwide leader. You paved the way for me, and now I'm here. Here we go. What way did I pave? I started reading you back in 2002 at my college dorm on ESPN page two. And I said, someday I want to write for that website. I didn't realize that 23 years later, I'd be on air doing it on ESPN, but I'm here, Bill. Let's go. What's the longest stretch? What's the longest day you've had? How many shows have you done in one day? Did you do a three-show day yet?

1:04:13I did. I'm about to experience what they call the car wash at the draft. I got my schedule. It's like, so Thursday morning, you're going to do Get Up, then you're going to do SportsCenter, and then you're going to do NFL Live, and then you're going to do... And I'm like, okay, all right. So we'll see how this goes. But I'm an egomaniac. I'm a narcissist. I like seeing myself on TV, and I'm cool with that. You love this stuff though. You're ready to do multiple hours at a time. I mean, you were just on Get Up an hour ago, and now you're on this podcast. You're ready to go. No doubt. I'm excited.

1:04:44And it's funny, we're sitting in the getup production meeting and it's Marcus Morris and it's Damian Woody and it's Carlos Boozer and we're talking about the Knicks. And you know, I'm a diehard Knicks fan. And I'm just trying to stay quiet because I'm here for NFL draft stuff and I just spill my heart. I'm like, I just can't watch DiVincenzo hitting threes and Randall bullying LeBron and Hartenstein looking like he's an all world center. and I'm looking at Carl Anthony Towns unable to score and Dennis Schroeder all up in everyone's face or Schroeder. So they let me talk about the Knicks, which was fun.

1:05:16And I'll tell you, man, all these ESPN shows, I was biting my tongue last week. It's like, if they don't get past the Celtics and the Cavs, is it a disappointment for the Knicks? I'm like, the Celtics and the Cavs? I'm petrified of the Pistons and here we are and you're going to go to the game tonight or whatever and you're going to see DiVincenzo and Randall light it up again and the Knicks had zero from Cat and zero from Mikael Bridges when it mattered. Yeah, it does feel like the Knicks fans didn't have enough time to enjoy whatever the team that kind of blossomed last year was. And then all of a sudden, it just blew up.

1:05:49I don't think, I personally don't think Tibbs is the right coach for the team that they currently assembled. And maybe we'll find that out after the year whether they agree with me. But they played the two games against the Pistons at home and they lost seven of the eight quarters, basically? No doubt. Not a great look like the better team or the better coach team. And, you know, campaign in the first game scores 14 and is like this huge spark plug off the bench. He gets three fouls early. We don't see him the rest of the night. And they had eight bench points, eight. And they're all from Deuce McBride.

1:06:20None of them of great significance. So as a Knicks fan, I'm sitting here. The series is tied at one, but I'm not exactly full of optimism. But that's what I bring to ESPN. That's what I bring. Your multi-sport capability, passion, optimism. We're going to talk NFL draft. which we haven't talked about in the last five, six weeks as I've thrown myself into it. I don't even know where to start because on the one hand, it feels like a draft that can go chalk. You were on GetUp today reporting that teams are trying to trade up for two or three. Yep. And we don't even really know for who, whether it's like a Travis Hunter play, is it an Abdul Carter play, is it I just refuse to believe Sanders is a top three pick at this point.

1:07:05even if the Giants wanted to take him at three, why wouldn't they just flip picks with the Patriots and try to get like a third round pick or anything? Why would they take him at three? Why not move back? Why not move back one spot? I can't imagine in a million years he goes three. I'm not even sure he goes in the first round. I don't think Shador Sanders was ever a top three pick. This is my big treatise on the NFL draft world and the NFL. I really value what Mel Kuyper has to say. And like, Daniel Jeremiah is like the best in the business. And all of these different pundits on TV, like for a good month there after the combine, it was like, well, you've got Cam Ward, you got Abdul Carter, you've got Travis Hunter, you got Shador Sanders.

1:07:49Like at no point in this process was anyone telling me that Shador Sanders was a top five pick or a top 10 pick. And then even when the Saints, like nebulous Derek Carr injury, which I roll my eyes about, I don't know what's the story there, but Derek Carr is now - Do you think that was an umai arm? I think it's broken by the danger field case. I can't say anything publicly because then it comes out, but that one came out of nowhere. I don't think the Saints saw that one coming. Derek Carr's shoulder, and everyone's just like, ooh, Saints aren't going to take him. Guys, I think everyone's mistaking what we want Shador Sanders to be into what the NFL evaluators see him as.

1:08:28So here's my take on Shador. if he goes three to the Giants this is one of those cases where they did all the work they feel comfortable with him and it's like if we like him at 15 or we like him at 20 in this year's draft who cares if it's not one of the blue chip guys take him at three we've got our quarterback we took him at three we're good this is the Bo Nix Denver last year right no doubt you know what we like him we'll just take him 12 can we get him at 28 sure Blake Bortles to Jacksonville I remember that pick also. He went third overall. They took Portals third and it was a big surprise.

1:09:02If we like him as a quarterback in the first round and we have the third pick, we're not going to get cute here. So that's it with Shador. We're recording this on Wednesday. I can tell you there is a... Sorry, what is today? Today's Tuesday. There is a meeting that's going to happen on Wednesday between John Mara and all of the brain trust from the Giants and they're going to go through their draft board. And they've talked, of course, It's been fluid throughout, but this is one of those where does the owner step in and say, guys, I am not going through another draft year where we don't get a quarterback.

1:09:37If we like Shador, I'm okay with you taking him at three. I don't see it happening right now. I see a far more likely scenario being the Giants take Abdul Carter at three, and then they trade back into the first round and get either Jackson Dart or Shador Sanders. But just to empty the bag a little bit on this whole thing, the Giants have been to multiple Shador Sanders games. I know Joe Shane himself was at a practice earlier this year. They sent 13 people to the pro day. He came to New Jersey. They not only did a visit with him, they then took him out to dinner in Jersey. And then last week, they went back out there for a private workout, which I'm told went well.

1:10:20That and Pat Shermer is his offensive coordinator at, you know, in and he's got great relationships with Dable and Shane. So you've got like, if you don't want to look at the Dion side of it, there's also another voice in there. That said, Joe Shane's daughter goes to Ole Miss. He's been around that program a whole bunch. Joe Judge, former head coach of the Giants, also works for Ole Miss football right now. So there are people in the organization who are still employed by the Giants who can get the full story on Jackson Dart from Joe Judge, who still talks to those guys. Charlie Weiss's kid calls the plays.

1:10:55Brian Dable and Charlie Weiss, thick as thieves, have a long relationship. So as much as we want to say, well, they put all this time into Shador, they know Jackson Dart also. So I am not convinced that Shador is this quarterback. the Giants are certainly being linked to. I think Jackson Dart could easily be that guy as well. Shepter had a tidbit about how, which I agree with, that some organizations slash coaching staffs would be afraid of taking Sanders because Deion is just looming over you as you're replaced with his head coach the moment you take his son, which I think ties into what I see with the Giants.

1:11:33And I have some intel on the Pats. The Pats don't, the Pats don't know what the Giants are going to do. And the Pats are heading into this draft prepared to not know up until the Giants are on the clock and then building out all their scenarios from there. But I think the intel a lot of people are having are you have the people who, they might not be there in a year in the Giants, right? The GM, the coach. Well, they just, can we just take the best possible player and whatever. You have the long-term planning people who are like, maybe we could, you know, maybe we could turn this pick into a bigger asset.

1:12:10And then you have the owner, who knows what the family thinks. So you basically have three different sides, all who have these vested interests. Like what if Dayball is like, I'm going to get fired unless we take Sanders at three and he's good. If Sanders is at three and he's good, I might keep my job for a little bit. He might also think the opposite way and be like, if we take Sanders, I'm definitely getting fired. No doubt. No doubt. It's so interesting how many different agendas are going on. And what a mess they've been for the last decade, which is just a fact. The word is a giant delta on what Sanders' draft stock could be.

1:12:46And three is where it begins. And I will not close the door on the Giants at three because of exactly what you're saying. There's different agendas going on. There also might be different evaluations. And there's different philosophies on, hey, if we draft Abdul Carter and he gets seven sacks and we're five and 12, that doesn't help any of us. and it doesn't necessarily do anything to strengthen the team far greater than what they have, which is Brian Burns and Dexter Lawrence and Kayvon Thibodeau. They have defensive line. So it's not like this is some pressing need. That would just be, hey, he could be Micah Parsons or, hey, he could be Lawrence Taylor.

1:13:21That's why you take him up at three. But Miles Garrett might be the best pass rusher in the sport. There's been a lot of turnover in Cleveland since they took Miles Garrett. You get a quarterback and suddenly you say, okay, well, Dable's a quarterback guy. you know, we've got to pay some time here to see this quarterback develop a little bit. That's why we have Russ. And then you kind of give yourself a little breathing room and say, well, there's obviously signs of development. I would also add with the Shador thing, he could go three there. He could still be on the board at 34. So to me, this is one of those where, and I've said it and And people get caught up in the comparison, but not since Johnny Menzel have we had a prospect where I walked into draft night and said, this guy can go first overall or this guy doesn't even belong in the first round because of so many differing opinions.

1:14:16And my last point on - Well, Lamar had like what? Like a 20 pick swing for where he could go? Like it would have been shocking if he was in the high teens, it would have been shocking if he fell to the second round. Yeah. And what's amazing about the Lamar one is that people forget the Ravens took Hayden Hurst at 22. So it's not like he was, they took a tight end. And then they traded back and Lamar says, I'm going to get you guys a Super Bowl ring. And it's like, all right, we'll see. Well, sure enough, he's everything you'd want and more. But people forget that 30 teams pass on him, including the Baltimore Ravens.

1:14:48Well, that's the Patriots with Brady. They passed on him in the fourth round and the fifth round. And then they took him in the sixth round. So it's smart, but you also passed on him. The Dion thing is interesting. So Shador Sanders has never played for a coach other than his dad. Yeah. In high school and in college. Red flag? What's up? Is that a red flag or is that just weird? That's the question. And then it's, well, he didn't do that. He just plays for his father and that's fine. The other side of it is like Dion's shadow might be large, but like if you're a coach and you're that insecure, then you probably have your own issues.

1:15:26Mike Tomlin is the reason I would think Pittsburgh makes sense because Mike Tomlin is not going to be nervous of like Deion Sanders talking in the media locally about his son. That said, you go to a weaker coaching staff in a weaker market and they're one in seven and Shador is still not on the field. Deion might have something to say. A couple other things just because - Wait, can I ask you a quick before you do the couple other things? Yeah. What's the craziest team in round one that could take Shador that you think there's actually like a 1 % chance it could happen? So it's completely insane, but also you could see it.

1:16:09Is there a team? There's two teams. Okay. Not at 11. But you're telling me Shador's still on the board at 30, 31, 32? and we've got Brock Purdy talking about where he wants and what he wants. Does San Francisco pull the plug and just say, screw it, we'll take two young quarterbacks. We'll see. We'll still sign for it. Maybe. But not at 11, but maybe a trade back. Yeah. Okay. And then Seattle, who gave Sam Darnold a three-year deal, but there's a lot of ways out of that three-year deal after the first year or second year. And if Seattle was to look at things and say, we like Shadour and let's just give ourselves some security here behind him.

1:16:54That would be two teams that I think that no one's talking about. That could be a possibility. San Francisco one would be a giant leverage play just to press it to Purdy and put him in a corner because he's there. Those contract talks are going on right now. And I don't think they'd ever waste a first round pick to just make a point. I think Purdy is the guy they want. But you talk about him slipping. Who knows? All right. We'll hold on the Niners because I want to come back to them. What was your couple other things that you had off this? You know, Dion has a lot of people that he's done work with and works with in the media.

1:17:27So I think there's been a little bit of like the sensitivity of being negative on Shador. And I don't know if it's helped Shador in the long run, because now if Shador doesn't go in the first 20 picks, it's this great slide. But, you know, Dion worked for CBS. Dion worked for NFL Network for many years. Dion has obviously great relationships with Fox and he's got a show on Tubi. He's got a documentary on Amazon. We all love Dion who worked in the media at any spot with him. I worked with Dion at NFL Network. He's amazing. And he's a great, great dude. So I think this whole lead up to the draft, the people who have been talking about the draft are careful.

1:18:08I don't know if that's done him any favors if there is a slide in the draft. That would also add - And meanwhile, people are saying like, eh, he might be Andy Dalton, Teddy Bridgewater, like that level. That's probably the ceiling. I think your guy McShay had some things to say out of the combine and it was as if he had said something about - McShay's been consistent this whole time. He just doesn't have him as a top 25 guy, period. 100%. And for Todd to do that, that's him going out on a limb. I think some other people have been out there saying, I don't see him as this guy. But it's a lot safer just to say, yeah, we like Shador, but when the rubber hits the road, who's going to be there answering the questions as to why is he slipping out?

1:18:48Listen, after Knicks last year, I just think that's the league now. If you like your guy, who's going to remember 10 years ago what number in the draft he was? If you want your guy, you want your guy. And if you talk yourself into QB, which is the make or break position every year, you're going to do it. And it doesn't really matter where you take him. Three is too high. I would also add this with the Shador thing. So obviously all eyes have been on him, huge spotlight. They had reality shows at Amazon. Dion has the famous video of him with the amazing draft day look at Andrew Kramer in his living room.

1:19:25I don't know what the plans are to cover Shador during draft day, but if there's 10 cameras in his living room and we've got wall-to-wall coverage of him, that tells me they know something. And if there isn't that, that tells me that this thing is still very undetermined. So I would almost approach the day of the draft and see, okay, well, let's see how much access we have to the Sanders family. Now, all that could be moot and they're doing their own documentary and maybe they're filming something that we don't even know about. They've already sold the rights to Fubo or to Netflix or whoever. But these guys have never shied away from the spotlight.

1:20:02And I'd be curious to see how much spotlight and attention that they're getting or they're asking for on the day of the draft. Did Fubo come after you when you were a free agent? I'm waiting for the Fubo talks. No Fubo talks? No Fubo talks. Can we just all agree, and maybe I'm saying this selfishly as a Pats fan with the fourth pick in a three-part draft, the most fun outcome to all of this is the Pats and Giants flip picks. The Pats take Carter. Sanders goes to the Giants at four. and we just get to talk about that for the rest of the offseason heading into the thing and maybe he's a little better than we thought and the Giants fans will talk themselves into him almost immediately.

1:20:45Them taking Carter is just a weird pick. That's another piece of this. That team has holes everywhere. I would say the only thing they don't really need to address in the 2025 draft is the defensive line. They've got one of the better young defensive lines in football. You could argue Dexter Lawrence is the best defensive tackle in the sport. And then Thibodeau is entering his fifth year. So obviously he's got a contract situation that's looming. And then on the other end... Did he pay for Burns? Burns, they spent a lot of money on Burns. You're almost like, do you take Carter? Maybe you shop Thibodeau at that point and you decide not to pay him.

1:21:22For a team that has holes everywhere, it just seems like such a weird pick to me. But that's how top head of this draft is until we get to Gentry, who's the wild card of everything. I want to talk about that. Let's take a break quick.

1:22:04All right. Gentry, the running back. Just a beast. He's doing the thing where he's just calling out teams. If you take me, I'm going to be awesome. Here's my letter. Here's my promise. It's a position that, you know, you think back to when Zeke Elliott was in the draft and he was awesome. That was 2016 and he seems like he's 100 years old now and he's like 31. It's a seven, eight year shelf life. You might get the guy in the rookie contract plus one more contract. If you get eight, nine, 10 years out of a running back, it's amazing. And yet he has a chance to be immediately one of the top five guys in his position.

1:22:45Now it's a position that when you're paying for it, when you see like free agency and you see the numbers different positions get, what did Barkley get? What was his last contract? Like 16, 17 a year? Yeah, he got a new extension from the Eagles and finally got made whole. 16, 17 range? It was 12, yeah. Yeah. So McCaffrey is like somewhere in the 12 to 14 with some bonus. Yeah. McCaffrey and Saquon both are like 16, 17 right now. Right. So the high end is 16, 17. If I have one of the top five left tackles, that high end is in the high 20s. If I have one of the best nose tackles, that high end is what the Patriots played Williams.

1:23:25That's in the mid 20s. If I have a cornerback or a receiver. Cornerback might be high 20s. Receiver, the market now is like low 30s. Quarterback is 50. Edge rusher, that's in the 30s now. So I look at where the Pats are picking at four and it's like, you can take Gente. You have a top five guy at your position going forward. But it's a position that is valued at 13 to 16 million a year at the highest possible end of it. But if you take the edge rusher from Georgia and he's good, that's now like a$28 million a year guy. So I don't understand why teams don't just think this way. What are the best players worth in our salary cap and why don't they just shift their drafts that way, but they don't think that way?

1:24:15Which leads us to Gentry. They're not thinking about the second contract. They're thinking about the first one. And if you get a guy who can get you 10 sacks to 15 sacks in the first round and you're paying him rookie numbers for the first four years, well, then you're getting the biggest bang for your buck. And eventually you have to... You're getting an$8 million guy that's worth 28 who's getting you 15 sacks. That's why I would just be talking about this constantly if I ran an NFL team. That's why the Will Campbell thing, if Will Campbell goes four and he's the 15th best left tackle in the league, it's like, that sucks.

1:24:49We don't even have one of the best 14 left tackles, but he's still worth like 29 million a year as left tackle. And here's the, everyone I've spoken to is obsessed with Gentry. Right. Seems. It is a home run. There is no holes in his game. The pushback I got last night. Like a rich man, Jameer Gibbs, basically? Yeah, and he's so small to the ground. His way he runs, he does the upright and then he goes low. You cannot bring him down. And what he did in the college level like there's a lot of stuff about him that you'll want to run through a wall for the fact that he was offered crazy money in NIL going into his last year.

1:25:29And he's like, no, I've got a job to do at Boise. I'm staying at, but that stuff, it goes a long way in today's day and age of NIL. When these coaches and GMs are talking to players who've been to four colleges each to take the more dollar sign, you know, each time. It's like my guy, Drake May in North Carolina. No doubt. My home is here. Had to finish it out. My little kids are here. That's it. But it's planting roots. Here's where the pushback is. Last year, there were all these running backs in the draft. Do you know who the leading rusher of all the rookie running backs was? It was Bucky Irving, who was a fourth-round pick.

1:26:06Wow, that's the problem. The second leading rusher of all the rookies was Tyrone Tracy for the Giants, who quietly put together a 1 ,000-yard season while everyone was crying about Saquon leaving. He did basically what Saquon did the year before in that Giants office. so the opportunity cost of missing out in the gap of okay well you know we we get genti he could be amazing and jameer gibbs was behind the best offensive line in football and in a lot of ways saquon last year took this giant leap not because yes saquon's amazing but he also was behind that jeff statlin offensive line and it was a perfect fit if your team has a ton of holes and your offensive line isn't great, taking a running back when, oh, I don't know, a left tackle or a pass rusher.

1:26:52However, Bill, this draft, there's three great players in this draft. And I will say that there are three great players. It's Carter, it's Hunter, and it's Gentry. So if there ever was a year where you take a guy in the top five at running back, if you're Jacksonville, close your eyes, you take Gentry, you put him in there, you have your running back, and then you deal with everything and you know you have that guy because at five, Mason Graham or Ted McMillan, like those are questions. Gentry is a sure thing. This guy is awesome. So this is the year for a top five running back because of the rest of that class up top.

1:27:24Here's the problem. I just was looking up as you were talking the 2023 draft. Let's go. Bijan goes eight to Atlanta. Solid pick. everybody was like one of the best running back prospects of the last decade. This guy's awesome. I like it. Jalen Carter goes ninth. What's a more important position? Who's going to make more money on their second contract? And it's like now you look back and you're like wow, that was stupid. Now there are reasons Jalen Carter fell to nine. Look, who'd the Raiders take at seven that year? Look at that. Tyree Wilson. So you pass on Jalen Carter for Tyree Wilson. However, Bill, if you put Jalen Carter in Vegas, is it the same situation?

1:28:08I don't know. It's a great question. Jameer Gibbs goes 12. You were all excited about it. We were doing podcasts that year, and you were like, this is an amazing pick. This is like a toy for the Lions, that this weapon they just get to use and move around. I think the difference with Jente that would really fuck with me if I was in a draft room is that he's just three downs. You have a guy who doesn't basically have to come off the field, who can play however many downs, touches, whatever. Yeah, look at the Patriots. They don't have enough left tackle. But they had him and Drake May. Does this become Peyton Manning, Edger and James for seven years and you can keep him on third down?

1:28:54Now he's probably our best receiver on the field anyway. I don't think they should take him at four, but I'm sure they've had the conversation. But it seems like if he goes to the Bears at 10, I wonder if that's like a Gibbs kind of toy situation. Like, whoa. I don't see him going past 10. I don't either. I look at New Orleans at nine. Kamara's in the last year of his deal. And, you know, Kellen Moore, new coach. That's a tough beat for New Orleans, though, who has 40 holes. Yeah, no, I know. But what's your identity going to be? Your first pick of the new coach? Like, what are you going to be?

1:29:31If Jente's there, I like that. I mean, I like it. I like it at six, obviously. I think there's a little too much about the Raiders that tells me if they're talking about Gentry so much, usually. It's a little smoky. But to me, five, Jacksonville. James Gladstone, interesting guy. 34-year-old new GM from the Rams. And Liam Cohen, like Schefter had it in his column on Sunday, and I've heard the same thing. They're going offense. What's our identity going to be? Now, if you're James Gladstone coming from the Rams where character was everything when they did their board and they had a whole philosophy.

1:30:05And I've been in the room with Les and with McVay. And it's like, what do we stand for? Tett McMillan, great player, great kid. The questions are, does he love football? Is his heart in this? He took plays off. Is that going to be your first pick as a GM of a team? This is what we stand for. This is my rep. Tett McMillan. This is my guy. I don't know. Ashton Gentry. You can look at everyone in that room and say, this is what we're about. This kid right here, this is what we stand for. and this is what Jaguars football is going to be. So I think he could go as high as five. First guy in the locker room every morning.

1:30:40Last guy to leave. Last guy to leave. Warrior. I don't know why we haven't heard more about the Patriots taking them. You know, to me, their team has been lacking offensive firepower. And if Campbell's not Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden, then why is he such a slam dunk? So to me, it's not my pick. Elliott Wolfe and Mike Vrabel will make it. And I hear that there's a lot of love for Campbell in that building and great. Abdul Carter would be a wonderful selection at four as well, but for whatever reason, Gentry's been crossed off the list from Patriots, but then the Jaguars, it's like, yep, that works for us.

1:31:14A couple of things in Campbell's favor, just in general. Van Lathan, giant OSU fan, absolutely loves him. Thinks he's a warrior. He was in the ESCC just battling all these dudes. I'll give Van credit. He was big on Brian Thomas last year. Van and Jaden Daniels was another one. He absolutely loved Jaden Daniels. Van's been good. Is he big on Nas Reed? Because I didn't see Nas Reed being this out of LSU, and Nas Nas Reid doesn't miss a shot. I don't remember his Nas Reid takes. Campbell, so he shows up, what is he, 18 as a freshman? And he's just immediately thrown into the fire like a man's man, leader, played every play, tough as nails.

1:31:51I heard this tidbit about Vrabel, but I don't know if you've heard it. Okay. And it seems insane and I loved it. And I'm going to share it here. Apparently when he's working out people, he has this thing about body mass and feeling like banging bodies and if it's the right kind of player that they're looking at who actually put on the pads and bounce against them to feel what their body's like like he's a big how sturdy are you how physical he's done it at pro days so you know about this there's no way he'll do wrestling moves with the player and get him in all these weird positions to see how he reacts No, it's real.

1:32:31Okay. So I would say like Will Campbell, who poor Will Campbell, that his arms aren't an inch longer, right? An inch is like this big, by the way. And it's like, oh, couldn't get to 34 inches. I don't know. Meanwhile, there's a bunch of like, Sean Slater's been pretty good. Yeah. That was a knock on him. Joe Thomas has been okay. Yeah. But it just feels like Will Campbell, I could see Bray will put in the pads on him and hitting him and be like, yeah, this is my kind of body mask. guy. I just think they're going to take him. And it's like, look, maybe he won't ever be one of the eight best left tackles in the league, but this is a guy who would be, he's going to be a leader.

1:33:12He's durable. And he will be in the top half of left tackles, which is all you need because you can't find them. They're not falling out of trees, period. Is it a great failure and a great disappointment if a year in you're like, he's a good left tackle but gosh, he's an amazing left guard. Do we move him inside and do we put someone else on tackle? Could you be a four-time All-Pro at left guard? Is that a loss? Is Quentin Nelson a loss for the Colts? No. He's great. He was the best at his position for a decade. I think he'd sign up for that. When you're picking fourth or you're picking fifth or you're picking third.

1:33:55If you're in the top five, I have to get a blue chipper. And the only way I'm not doing that is if there's some quarterback that I'm doing my 50-50 coin toss on. And Bill, last year, Malik Nabors was a blue chipper. Joe Alt was a blue chipper. This year, I hate to be so dismissive, and I think it actually adds to the intrigue of the draft. They're just not there. You can't make Will Campbell into a blue chipper. You just can't. So he's looked at it as that. Would that guy from Pittsburgh who nobody had ever heard of who signed as a free agent, the left tackle? More? Yeah. Didn't he get like$20 million a year from somebody?

1:34:29Yes. And everybody was like, we're not sure he's a starter. So when you think of it that way, if Campbell could just be the 14th best left tackle in the league, if that's his ceiling, it's like, well, that's probably a$29 million player. And you have him for five years. Armand Membu, no one had ever heard of. And that's dismissive. I shouldn't say it that way. But he wasn't in the conversation. No, he was a fast riser though. There's no question. He was definitely coming on strong. And then the combine was an absolute, you know, revelation. So if you're talking about arm length and that stuff and Campbell, maybe Membu's a tackle.

1:35:01He's a pure tackle and he has huge upside. I would always take the pedigree of the blue chipper who's done it, but I'm the same guy who would have taken Mac Jones over Trey Lance. You know, like I like knowing what I'm getting. And you look at some of these teams, like the Chargers last year, their first four picks were out of Notre Dame, Michigan, Alabama, USC. That's what they do. Membu comes out of Missouri, doesn't have the same pedigree, doesn't have the same sort of resume, but is this physical freak. Where do you stand on Membu versus Campbell, who you know what you're getting with Will Campbell.

1:35:39It's solid. It's a guy as solid as a rock, but he might not ever end up being, like I said, an Orlando Pace or a Trent Williams or a Jonathan Ogden type. Obviously, I've done a lot of Membu work. I have two questions one did Vrabel put the pads on with him yet and bang and feel him out and put him in some wrestling moves does Vrabel like his body mass that would be one I do know this the Patriots have been doing work on Membu and this is this week they've made some calls and they've been asking around so that door is not shut yet so this is what I know and what I've heard with the pads where there's two types of players you're picking right And Belichick, I think his mistake, especially over the last 10 years, was he would default toward these winning programs.

1:36:24And you're getting guys from LSU, Alabama, who have already been maximized because those teams have the greatest possible college coaching staff. So you're getting somebody out of there and they've already been really well schooled. They've been, whatever's in there, a lot of it's been pulled out. And that's why it's safer bets to take some of these guys, right? The question for the Pats is they have an awesome coaching staff now. that they feel really good about. And can you look at some of these guys from schools that maybe weren't the greatest, maybe didn't have a defensive coordinator making$2 million a year or whatever.

1:37:02And maybe there's some raw gem stuff for it there. And it's like, well, what happens if we take this raw, awesome piece of something who's already has blue chip talent and we pull him into our universe and we coach him up. I think that's what Washington thought last year with some of their guys, right? They thought like they went and got these B-list veterans, put a bunch of like smart, just tough vets, and then kind of took some chances on, eh, that guy was never in the right situation. Let's give him a test drive because we love our nucleus. I think that's how the Pats are feeling, which is why I think Membo can't be ruled out at four.

1:37:39That's really interesting. And the Washington approach, which was Adam Peters, who has a history with New England, was exactly what you said. Let's get a veteran for every position group. And that was Zach Ertz and Austin Eckler and Marcus Mariota and Frankie Luvu and Zach Ertz. You go through all these guys that were not hot. But let's also get assistant coaches who are overqualified at all these different spots, which is kind of what the Pats are doing. And then they took a guy like Mike Sanistrel in the draft who everyone was like, well, he's a nickel. He's not really worthy of having. And then he was an all-world rookie for the commanders out of the gate.

1:38:16I'd push back on the Patriots thing. At the end of Belichick's stay, it was like Kyle Duggar from Lenore Rine. And then he took Cole Strange. Right. Well, they went older. That was a new strategy near the end. Older guys who they could come in right away and be plug and play, which also didn't really work that way. Yeah. I'm curious about the Patriots. I do think, my report today is real. Cleveland is getting calls. Does Cleveland just say, you know what, we're not a Travis Hunter away from being relevant? They should 100 % trade back. What are they doing? And the Giants is a little more complicated.

1:38:51They have no chance to win a Super Bowl for three years. No doubt. No doubt. So don't be shocked if Cleveland on Thursday, we're on the clock. Well, Cleveland's traded, and then some aggressive team that is a couple steps away made the move. And because it's such a kind of depleted draft and because it's not a quarterback, it won't be the same bounty of picks that you usually get to move up to number two. Yeah, but what team is that? Because if you go through it, it's not anybody else in the top five. I don't think it's the Raiders. I don't think it's the Raiders. Is that the Jets? The Panthers are too far away.

1:39:25Do the Panthers move up for Abdul Carter? Maybe. If I were them, I wouldn't. The Bears were the one I was looking at as a move. back team, I think. The Bears are a trade back team. Because they have some talent. I look at the Niners window, right? Now, they've done this before. They went up and got Trey Lance. I don't see it. I don't see any of those teams in the top 15 being, whoa, if we get this guy. Do you? Miami Dolphins? I don't know. I'm just throwing out teams that are a playoff team that didn't have what they thought they should be that are still in waiting. The only team that does seem crazy to me is the Raiders.

1:40:05Just because new coach, new coach, new GM. He's in his mid-70s. Tom Brady making a splash. They fall in love with Hunter. They think he can play both ways. From what you talk to everybody and you do the on the record, then off the record, and you love hearing little tidbits about character and all the stuff that sometimes you can't even use, injury stuff. Is anyone worried about Carter? and the stress thing in his foot. It's not a stress fracture, but it's not great either. Like, what is that? I'll say this. His dad. Like, there's like all this stuff you're hearing about. You're on it, dude. It's Travis Hunter.

1:40:46It's Abuka out of Ohio State. It's Gente. And you hear about Jalen Walker. These are amazing kids. Then Carter comes up and it's, guy can play and he was tough. So I think there's some stuff about, is this the all-world guy? But I'll tell you what, Charles Haley wasn't the all-world guy and he won five championships. Yeah, some of that. Well, listen, if you're a great edge rusher, you got to be a little selfish. And at that position, it is what it is. You're not going to be a team guy. You're just trying to get the quarterback. That's it. The Giants passed on Micah Parsons a few years ago. They traded back and they ended up getting Kadarius Toney and they got an additional pick the following year.

1:41:24This is an all-timer. It's an all-timer and it's really the original sin of this generation of the Giants, that and the Daniel Jones contract extension, if they were to pass on a guy who legitimately, not because they were the same number and not because they went to the same college, is compared to Micah Parsons, the way they used to meet Penn State, the way he went into his coach's office that final year and he looked at James Franklin and said, I don't want to just be this. Make me a guy who plays off the ball. Let me do all these things. And then did it at a higher level than Parsons in college.

1:41:55It would be an incredible, incredible mistake made twice, at least in my eyes. I don't think you pass on him, even if you have all these different pass rushers already. That said, there is the injury stuff, didn't compete at the combine, didn't do it at the pro day. So if you want to make that a red flag, fine. And then off the field, it's not like this guy is necessarily marrying your daughter. That's what they say. Now, none of that is criminal. None of that is this, but that's just the word around the street is that he's not the same type of, wow, you want to wrap your arms around him and give a big old hug like Travis Hunter.

1:42:26It makes me like Amor. I know. That's my pass rusher. I don't need him to be trading jerseys after the game. I'm good. All right. So you be the Giants and I'll be Vrabel. Who's taking the phone call for the Giants for a trade? Joe Shane. Okay. You be Joe Shane. I'll be Vrabel. Okay. Joe, how are you? Hey, what's up, Mike? You know what you're doing at three yet? You know, we still don't know. The truth is I'll let you know when we do, but we're leaning towards Carter, but the door is still open. What do you got? I have an idea. We can flip picks three to four. I'll give you my second next year, and I'll give you my fourth next year, and you just move back one spot.

1:43:09That's my offer. And also, I'm willing to talk about it a little bit. Who am I taking it for, if that's the case? What are you implying? If you like Sanders, why do you have to take him at three? Take him at four and get some stuff back. Interesting. So this is what the Niners and Bears did a few years ago. I'm still playing Joe Shane, just giving a history lesson. For Trubisky, they said, okay, we'll move up one spot. We'll move back. We'll take Solomon Thomas, get a little extra. What was the little extra for that? I can't remember for Trubisky. It wasn't that much, right? It was like a second?

1:43:42It wasn't that much. I believe it was a second round pick and the Niners were doing flips. What happens if you, Joe Shane, comes back and says, I'll flip spots with you, but I want your first next year. And I'll give you my third. Mike, Mike, what happens if we do this? I will flip spots with you, but I need next year's first. What would you say? Give me a third back and it's a done deal. Okay. We've got, I think, the 104th pick. So you're saying I give you the third and the 104th, and I get next year's first, next year's second, and a fourth this year? You want my fourth this year too? Yes. I need another pick.

1:44:21Jesus. I got to hang up. I got to talk to Kraft. I got to talk to Kraft and yell at him for not taking week 18. I got to hang up and go scream at Drew Locke for throwing for 200 yards against the Colts in week 16. Yeah, see, the Pats need so many things. They're probably better off just staying at four and taking Will Campbell. But if they think Carter is Michael Parsons and the price would be flipping picks with the Giants, I think the Pats are going to be good next year. I don't think they're going to win the Super Bowl, but I think they could go 9-8, 10-7 if they hit a couple picks. Rosters better, coaches better.

1:45:04If they think they can get a left tackle who can start next year at the top of the second round, I think you have to think about trying to trade up a spot. I can't believe they're in this position because Buffalo out-tanked them, which I'll never get over. No. Buffalo didn't play. That was crazy, that Buffalo game. That was nuts. Buffalo was making the playoffs. Somehow out-tanked us. Joe Milton just looking like Dan Marino out there. Mike, wait. Just hand the ball off and the guy's going to fall down. I have some lingering questions. last year the shocker was Penix. Yeah. If you had to handicap this, what is the Penix bomb of this year?

1:45:45What is the shocker? You just had to have one guess. Guy's name is Gray Zabel. Has that name come across your board at all? I haven't done a lot of Gray Zabel work. What is that? Offensive guard at a North Dakota state. In the last 72 hours, I've gotten multiple calls from teams looking at my mock drafts. Here's how I do it. I talk to people, I put together a mock draft and I send it to like all the teams. I'm like, what am I missing? Who am I missing? What are you hearing? And a lot of teams will tell me, we actually like this guy more than this guy. So just put him there if you want. I'll throw you a favor, throw you a bone on that.

1:46:18Or where's this player? And unanimously I'm getting, where is Gray Zabel in your top 20? In the first, in the top 20. Watch for Gray Zabel out of North Dakota State to suddenly be one of these guys who goes like 15, 17, 18, 19, even if it's early 20s, a player who at the senior bowl played well, and then you didn't hear from him again. And he's an offensive guard, but he's looked at as like one of these maulers and in a draft full of just meh, he is one of these guys that they think the sky could be the limit. So that is my wild card. You think Vrabel put the pads on with him? Vrabel might want to wrestle with him a little bit.

1:46:54Put him in a headlock, see what he's like. So you have your mock draft coming on Wednesday. Yep. And this has been a mock draft that has been very successful by mock draft standards. So you'll send spots to teams and do who's missing, what's crazy, what jumps out of you. I'm looking at my phone already. I sent to Howie Roseman this morning, Adam Peters this morning with Washington, John Spitek at the Raiders, and some of them won't respond. Or some of them will say, we actually like Membu more than this guy. Or they'll say, hey, why do you have Will Johnson from Michigan going in the mid-20s as opposed to top 15?

1:47:36What are you hearing? And then in exchange, it's, hey, you're missing Gray Zabel. Or what about the Oregon tackle? Gray Zabel almost seems like a fake name. Gray Zabel. I'm going to get the jersey for you. It's like, yeah, there's this new HBO show starring Gray Zabel. Have you seen it? I have one draft take about a top 10 guy. Let me hear. Now, granted, I parachuted in and I barely watched college season. You're good, dude. You're good. You love this shit. I think you're pretty good about... You're good. Whatever. I've had some good moments over the years. Tet scares me. You're not alone. Here's why.

1:48:14Because the Pats, who have done the worst job ever of drafting receivers since forever, and here's where I've landed with receivers, and it sounds stupid, but it's really not. I just want guys who are open. When I'm watching the clips, the guys are wide open. I want speed and I want the ability to get open. These guys, he's a big guy. He's unbelievable, catches in traffic. Nobody uses his body. I would just rather not take a chance on those guys. We've had those guys. We had the Nikhil Harry. I think when you get to the pros and everybody's more covered than they were in college and guys are just have people draped around them all the time.

1:48:53I just think it's harder to succeed. I just want speed. Like the chiefs don't do this. The chiefs are like, let's get Xavier worthy. He's fast. This guy. Guess what? We'll run plays for him and he'll just be open. And then our quarterback will throw him the ball. Lad McConkie was another one. It's like, ah, what is he? It's like, I don't know. He's always open. That seems positive. I just, I wouldn't. What now, if you were in the teens, it's different. But if you're talking about like Jacksonville at five, and it's a guy whose biggest skill is how good he is in traffic and how physical he is, it just makes me nervous.

1:49:26Let me give you the Ted McMillan stuff, because I was early in on Ted saying he's going to be top five, and then I've walked it back a little bit. Because Nate Tice loves him, by the way. And Nate, me and I really respect him. The good is so good. This guy's film, you pick 10 plays from Ted McMillan, he looks like Calvin Johnson. Danny Kelly has him fourth. Dude, he's amazing. he takes plays off his motor isn't always going and in this past season it was a significant difference in his consistency than the year before now the year before Arizona was coached by Jed Fish they had an offense that was humming they were a top 10 team at one point and this guy was engaged last year they took a dip they had a new coaching staff it wasn't as good that said 6 '4 fast, dominant hands and teams that met with him he's a different cat he's from Hawaii and he comes in and something that rubbed people wrong was like I'm a volleyball player first football player second, something of that I love volleyball now football guys see that and they bang their head through glass a coach who's more evolved says alright he's got volleyball skills and we will coach him up and we will get the most out of him.

1:50:44Now, the ceiling is Mike Evans. The basement or the floor could be... The ceiling is Mike Evans who's had one of the best wide receiver careers start to finish of anyone in the last 30 years. Good ceiling. He's got the same body type and a better college career than Mike Evans had. So, you're looking at that. And in a wide receiver draft that is putrid. Putrid. I mean, last year we had Neighbors, Adunze, Harrison, you had all the Washington I'm scared about him because this is what happens with the draft. When you're in this cluster and you're way better than everyone else in the cluster, but it's a bad cluster.

1:51:21This is the same thing with the quarterbacks. No doubt. Jackson Dart wouldn't have gotten drafted in the first 45 picks last year. Might not have. But McMillan, what I like though, is that the evolved coaches who I've spoken to, they didn't just shut it down. It's not that he doesn't love football. It's that this kid is different and he's got other interests. But gosh, when he's on the football field, he turns it on. So I don't know if it could be your first pick as a GM or your first pick as a head coach, but if you're secure in your spot and you're looking at this draft and it's a bunch of mid, this guy is the sky is the limit prospect as far as skill position goes.

1:51:59It feels very Dallas Cowboys-y at number 12 to me. Got the same type of body type as CeeDee Lamb, though. No, I'm just saying like, ah, now look at me, Dak and these two, this is the Eagles blueprint. Yeah. I have him going currently 19 to Tampa, which is crazy because a week ago I had him going either four or five. I think he goes in the teens. So I want to talk about the Niners at 11. Yeah. Sal and I did guess the lines over-unders for the first time ever this year. I heard. I was four wins off on the Niners. I thought it was going to be six and a half. It was ten and a half. It's still ten and a half on Fandle, even though there's a bunch of action.

1:52:39There's minus 130 under. And there's reasons for it. The schedule, the divisions they play, their fourth-place schedule, all that stuff. And yet I'm looking at the Niners at 11. Do they think they're good? And if they do think they're good, are they going to get aggressive? Are they going to try to move up? Will they try to move back? They feel like a pivot team to me. The Bears are staying at 10, and they're going to take a weapon, I think. I think the Bears are interesting because they lead to the Niners. The Bears at 10, like if Colston Loveland is sitting there, the tight end. A riser. That's really interesting for the Bears.

1:53:18You add another weapon to them. I could see the Bears take an offensive line, going with the big kid out of Alabama, the Booker, or Kelvin. I'm losing his name, Texas, the offensive towel. Yeah. The Niners, their defense was atrocious last year. And they just lost a bunch of dudes. They did. And that's long been their pride of their team up front. So you look at the big kid, Mikkel Williams out of Georgia, that's a possibility there. Or you look at defensive back and there's Hunter, but then this kid Barron out of Texas who won all the awards is a superb talent too. And is it like, to your point, the economics of it, if we get a number one corner and he's sitting there at 11, like we could put that pick in and we're good and we're building?

1:54:11Or are you trying to swing the bat and try to do something major, move up and get one of these star players and try to stay in the conversation? You're trying to get all the way up to three for Carter. See, I think Mason Graham is the guy who could potentially fall five, six spots. He might. The awesome middle of the line guy. There was a moment where I would have been psyched if the Pats took him, but then they signed Williams, so it makes no sense. Look, he's a three-technique player. He's got an incredible motor. Everyone likes him, but his body type is not, you're not going to sit in a room with Mason Graham and think he's Aaron Donald.

1:54:43So there's questions like, what's the sky's the limit with this guy or have we seen the best of him? Also, it's a pretty deep position. Can I give you a good Sala note? Yeah. Oh, Sala. Sala's the new defensive coordinator of the Niners. I have to share this with you. I don't think anyone's reported this and I don't think you and Sal have discussed it. Sala and his wife had another kid this off season.

1:55:09So what's that, eight? Eight This is like, how does he not have a reality show? I love it And his wife is the best Eight kids This is it, eight kids quietly in the offseason Sala Another kid, I'm like, God bless him I love that man His new child, Aaron Rodgers Sala Yeah, the Niners To me, major wild card Miami, a team that kind of needs everything and is being held hostage by whatever the hell is going on with Tyra Kill. Another question for you. Yeah. Do the Rams just draft a QB? No. Or is that weird? Yeah, because they think they can win the Super Bowl. They're drafting somebody that can help them, right?

1:55:53Or trade back. Classic, less need trade back. Like, let's just collect a lot. Because we hear about the teams that stuck around and it's like, we'll trade up and get our quarterback. Perfect spot. If there's a player that can help them. last year I came on your podcast and I'm like there's no way McVay with his first first round pick isn't taking offense and then he took Jared Verse and I looked like an idiot but the truth of the matter is they wanted Brock Bowers and they were looking to get trade up. If a Loveland was to drop to them, if a Bucca was to drop to them I think they would consider it but I don't think the Rams are looking to stay put at 26 unless there's a player that falls precipitously to them.

1:56:34Alright, here's my big prediction. It's not even a crazy prediction because I think it's in the ether. By the way, Bill, I would say Seattle is a more likely in the NFC West quarterback team to trade back into the first round or early second than the Rams. Okay. I think Cousins ends up on the Steelers. Go on. It's been floated out there. There's been scenarios. There's a couple things that don't add up. And you read some of the intel from people like Schefter where the Falcons are like, yeah, we trade him, but you got to pay some of his salary. And teams are like, well, we'll pay 10. It's like, no, it's got to be 20.

1:57:16The Falcons have no leverage at all. What are they going to do? They're going to pay Kirk Cousins a gazillion dollars to be their backup. They have to trade him. They have to trade him this week and they have to trade him to a team that is going to start to freak out that they're not of a quarterback yet, which is basically the Pittsburgh Steelers. So if the Steelers can be like, fine, we'll pay$11 million or$12 million, whatever. The Falcons, this is a sunk cost. Any money they can get back to dump his contract, they've got to do it. You can't keep him. They probably feel like they're going to be pretty good.

1:57:52They're in a crappy division. Who knows? So I just think he ends up on the Steelers, and I don't think the Sanders thing is as important for them. Where everybody has them taking Sanders. I feel like they could pass on him at 21, maybe get him in the second round and still get Cousins. I, by the way, think Cousins is washed and I think it's a mistake. That's the thing. I mean, he played hard at the end there, but if you watched that Monday night game Raiders versus Falcons when Kirk Cousins could not throw a football, his shoulder was messed up. We learned about it afterwards, but he probably was on the field for two extra weeks that Atlanta should have had him on.

1:58:29They lost those games and it cost them in the end. I thought Cleveland, and then they signed Joe Flacco. So, cross Cleveland off. I thought the Giants were a fuss. You'd rather pay Joe Flacco $4 million than Kirk Cousins$10. Joe Flacco, who's been there, and I know the connection there was Stefanski and Cousins have a great relationship, but that's such a big price tag and then you're kind of setting yourself back as a franchise. With Flacco, you get the one year and you see, and then you go from there. I haven't done the work on Pittsburgh I'll be honest with you I'm trying to think of the different connections have Arthur Smith worked with Cousins?

1:59:04No, they didn't overlap in Atlanta to me it's such a shocker to me that they put themselves in this corner with Rodgers of all the franchises with the place that they're at he looked more done than Cousins but also just with the veterans in the locker room with like Cam Hayward and TJ Watt and Minka Fitzpatrick and guys that are like known made men and we're sitting around waiting for Aaron Rodgers. It's a shock. And I got to think that if they were to do this all over again, they didn't put up much of a fight to bring back Justin Fields. The Jets got him for two years, 20 million apiece, whatever.

1:59:39And then they did not put up any fight to get Russell Wilson back. Cousins would be one of those deals where like, gosh, this all went awry. And I guess we'll get Cousins with like a shrug, but... Well, you're getting a better locker room fit than Rodgers. At least you're getting a guy that everybody loves being a teammate of. No doubt. But can he still play? And the price tag is going to be big. I mean, I think Atlanta is going to pick up most of it. Well, can we agree it's kind of dumbfounding that they've had no solution and it's past mid-April now? They have no quarterback. I'll tell you this from the Giants' side.

2:00:21to Rodgers' credit, and you can say, screw that. He looked at these teams and said, guys, I'm on my own timeline. If you need to pivot and make a move, there is no hard feelings. I am telling you straight up, I do not know when and if I'm coming back. And that is on you to do it. And Giants heard that. Giants waited a couple of weeks and they were like, all right, we got to act. And they did it. And they got Russell Wilson and Jameis. Steelers were like, all right. And they still haven't made a move. it's ridiculous okay I think we hit everything except Kyle Brandt some hurtful comments on the last rewatchables I didn't listen I'm sorry there was no interest in I had no interest in reliving the saint you guys I'm giving you a platform how are you guys doing you guys were like a married couple it's sad how many years was it It was a divorce that he had nothing to do with.

2:01:23It wasn't even a divorce. It was like, I don't know what it was. I fell out of love. It was it. It was it. How many years were you together? I couldn't be on Good Morning Football another day. I'd given it my all. So I'm on to another lover. Well, you know what's going to have to happen? The three of us are going to have to do rewatchables. That's how it's going to have to play out. You already did Blue Chips. That's going to have to be the reunion ending. I could have done every word of Blue Chips. You did Blue Chips already. I could have done that one. we're going to have to figure out our rewatchables for the three of us I would love that and if it's Steven Seagal, Jean-Claude Van Damme count me out but we can find a different niche for me I know Kyle has his real house what's your movie niche?

2:02:03I'm an art house theater guy you know spider house rules art house theater guy black box theater if you want to talk about was there hazing stuff at ESPN when you came in as the new guy? Did anybody just not talk to you for a week and shit like that? It's crazy. They put me in a room and just maybe watched Lakers, Cowboys, Yankee highlights. It was nuts. That was it? This is all you're allowed to talk about. It's like Minority Report.

2:02:34No, we're all happy for you. I love you for it. I appreciate you. You are, as you know, a huge sounding board. And I'll tell you this, as long as the years I was on Fox and as long as I was on Good Morning Football, all anyone is asking me is, are you still allowed to come on Simmons' podcast? And hopefully... Oh, that's nice. Hopefully I can. I love working with you and I love being a part of your world. All right. Well, it's great to see you. Safe travels to Green Bay. Good luck with the Knicks. I'll be interested to see if we hit any of this stuff. And if Rabel is at the draft and wants to put the pads on and try to get you in some wrestling moves, just be ready for it.

2:03:14That's it. You might want to feel your body best. I know. if you're in New York for any of these Knicks games we have to get together and go to 100 % alright Shregs great to see you thank you alright you're the man thanks dude alright that's it for the podcast thanks to Zach and Shregs thanks to Gahau and Saruti as well and don't forget I have a new podcast coming on Thursday don't forget to catch up on Celtic City on Max episode 8 the KG era it's an awesome one so if you missed it try to I know there's a lot of basketball games on right now but try to squeeze that in. And then new rewatchables, Minority Report.

2:03:51You can go check that out. As a video podcast on Spotify or on our Ringer Movies YouTube channel, don't forget to subscribe to my channel, the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And I will see you on Thursday. NBA playoffs and the draft. It's going to be hectic, but I will see you then.

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