America Gets Bounced, World Cup Picks, Knicks Fan Bliss, ‘Heat 2’ and ‘The Odyssey’ With Chris Ryan, Anthony Dabbundo, and Jason Concepcion

23:29Bill Simmons:Yeah, this felt like it could have been worse. Yeah, you look at the Fandu odds right now. France favorite, minus 175. Spain plus 340. Argentina plus 450. And CR's England at 5-1. And then Norway just like 17-1. Come hither. Holland during the day in Miami. Yeah. Yeah. Just that's like you're really fun. Just I'm putting everybody on my back bet. We need to go sell some sunscreen in Miami this weekend. That's a good business idea. So did this come down to that Senegal didn't hold on to that lead? Senegal didn't hold on to that lead to nothing? Because that's what we would have played, right? I felt like we matched up better with Senegal than we did with Belgium.

24:11And I know everybody wanted to call Belgium washed. And like they kind of are. but it's still a big difference in passing quality from what Belgium can offer versus what the Senegalese did. I would have preferred to have played Senegal.

24:23Bill Simmons:We still have... CR, what's your relationship with number 10 on Belgium, the left wing, the little guy? Oh, Trossard? He plays for Arsenal. Just going nuts. Yeah, he just won the Premier League with and was very instrumental at the end for Arsenal. So I recognize him and acknowledge him but I'm not an Arsenal fan so it's a little bit tough. He really schooled us. He was awesome. He was getting doubled at times and just seemed to be able to get the ball where he wanted to go. I hate Arsenal, but I actually like Trussard quite a bit. He's probably my favorite Arsenal player. I'm allowed to have one these days.

24:57Bill Simmons:You know those wings are scary when they're just completely still and the defense is paralyzed and they haven't even done anything. Like, oh God, what's he going to do? Is he going to do something? What's happening? What do you think about the... Just in terms of your question about like, where do we go from here? I mean, it's interesting that the three host nations of the cup went out in three successive days, right? So Canada, then Mexico, then the US. I don't think it's going to diminish people's interest in the tournament just because there's still so many incredible players playing. And this has been a tournament that's been defined by the fact that like Jude Bellingham, Erling Haaland, Lionel Messi, Kylian Mbappe, Harry Kane are all dealing.

25:36Like, this isn't like, oh yeah, I have to learn who this guy is. It's like, no, these are the best players in the world and they're playing like it. So I think that this will remain a really kind of central sports story for another 10, 12 days. But it is disappointing that all of those host countries went out over the weekend, and we're not going to get any of them in the semis. Or the quarters, rather.

25:57Bill Simmons:What was the highlight of the tournament for you, DiBundo? I know what it is for CR. Oh, England 3, Mexico 2. It's one of the best games I've ever seen. Argentina 3, Cabo Verde 2. That was also one of the best games I've ever seen. And they all happened in the last week. I mean, it was unbelievable. But those two matches, that's why we love the game. Yeah, we can go into the Azteca. Darren Fletcher. I want to give a shout to Darren Fletcher. He has called so many different sports now. He calls a lot of stuff in London. He's called baseball. But he has been so good these last two international tournaments.

26:26He did Euro 2024. He did, and now he's, you know, I think the number one guy. No disrespect to Strong and Stu, but like him and Hargraves are so fun. They make the game interesting. He's always working in these NFL or other sport references that kind of work, but don't really quite work. But you can see what he's trying to do. I love those guys. And then, yeah, I mean, it was just the scenes. I mean, I was singing along to the anthems last night in my living room.

26:49Bill Simmons:It was so much fun. CR, did you well up during Wonderwall after the game or no? No, I didn't. I think the bar that I was in was not quite an England bar, believe it or not. Oh, in LA. You barely got out of there alive? No, it was fine. Everybody was cool. But I think there were a couple of like silent fist bumps to myself. so walk us through the night last night for you you get a red card with 30 minutes left this turns into pre-2004 Red Sox territory of like oh god here we go here comes the fuck job well and then Tuchel puts on all these center backs not all these but he puts on like he basically decides okay like this is what it's going to be we're going to defend Fortress and we're going to put all like we're going to put Dan Byrne who can just head away everything John Stone's out there we're going to pull off Kane at a certain point we're going to pull off Saka and he just was like we're going to either live or die in the 90 minutes plus 11 minutes of stoppage time and I thought that was brilliant and incredibly brave to do it that way because if they had gone to extra time or to pens he doesn't have the best players on his team out there to get a goal or even to kick penalties I mean he's got center backs taking penalties so I thought it was amazing that they were like I don't think these guys can get it over our heads and we're going to prove it who was the six seven guy you brought in dan burn a lot of people made fun of him for big a lot of people made fun of tucco for taking dan burn and it was like this is the this is why you bring him for this one reason is you bring him in for this it was amazing it was like watching an nba center just clearing out the paint throwing it around um i thought that game was awesome i really loved it i think england's really good.

28:32Bill Simmons:I'm not just saying that because CR is here. I don't see why they couldn't win at CR. It's a really weird setup right now. There's like some stardust around Messi. France definitely looks the most competent. I don't know what's going on with Spain. They kind of seem to be playing with their food like in a lot of these matches. But I think I think right now I just I think it's France's tournament to lose like they're just it's so overwhelming how much talent they have. What do you think, Dabundo? Well, it's very convenient you say that, CR, because I wrote a piece for the Ringer today. Is this France's tournament to lose?

29:11And, you know, everybody has crowned France. France has not yet played a team that will challenge them in midfield, that will try to keep the ball, that will try to press them. And that's because most teams can't. Paraguay can't do that. Sweden certainly can't do that. Norway's backups can't do that. And so France looked very good and always does against those kind of teams. But we have seen Spain in the past, the last couple of years, beat France by saying, we're going to keep the ball and your press isn't good enough to win it off of us. And that has worked for Spain. I think it could work for England.

29:43I think it could work for Argentina. I mean, people forget it's four years ago now, but Argentina was kicking France's ass for the first 70 minutes of that World Cup final. It wasn't until Mbappe sprinkled the pixie dust that that game turned around. And certainly, if you get into an end-to-end contest, nobody is beating France. But I think all three of the other favorites have a decent matchup to just say, hey, we're going to keep the ball and you're not going to be able to get it off of us. And good luck. Because Deschamps, they don't want to press. They don't like to press. Spain's defense has given up, what is it now, one and a half total expected goals in five games?

30:18It's ridiculous how good their press is. And so they get Belgium. Who does Morocco? Morocco, France. France. England, Norway.

30:26Bill Simmons:I would be shocked if it wasn't France and Spain. Yeah. I only saw the second half of the Spain today because I was at the Odyssey for three hours. Classic Portugal, though. I wasn't surprised at all by their not scoring a goal at all. Not pulling Ronaldo off is an embarrassment. I mean, we talked about this in the pod we did before the tournament. That De Bundo was like, are they going to accept that this guy shouldn't be out there when it actually matters? and all I know is I watched the second half and the little added time, all that. I never saw him come out. He was out there the whole time, right?

31:04They kept making subs in the broadcast. Dar kept saying, you know, Is this the time that CL7 comes off? I mean, it's like he should have been Lukaku for them. He should have been the closer. Or even if he's capable of that, I really don't know what he really is able to do. I mean, he started patting himself on the back for scoring on Uzbekistan and kind of didn't really, And meanwhile, not necessarily his generational cohort, but the guys who he would consider, he's a part of that group. All those dudes have like seven goals, are leading their teams, and Ronaldo's divisive, and Ronaldo can't run anymore.

31:41It was really funny. I mean, the stat that came out at the Croatia game, he had one touch in the penalty area, and it was the penalty that was handed to him. And then his backup comes in, Gonzalo Ramos, who, again, four years ago, had the hat trick at the World Cup. People seem to ignore that. And he scored on his first touch in the winning goal for Portugal. So we're like, oh, maybe Martinez will sub in and we'll go with Ramos. No. And there were opportunities today. You know, if you wanted to be critical of Spain, there were chances like where a more functioning attack, it's not just Ronaldo, Liao was bad off the bench, Neto gave them nothing, Felix gave them nothing.

32:16Like, all of their attackers were bad today. But, you know, a competent team might have created some chances because their midfield hung in there. I mean, those two midfields went toe-to-toe today.

32:25Bill Simmons:It was a pretty even game. And Norway, with their keeper and with Haaland, they have no chance to do a 2011 Mavs? No, they certainly do. I definitely think Norway is a shot. Fando says no. 17-1. Oh, I don't think that's... I think Norway is very, very well organized, know exactly what they want to do. They have Odegaard, they have Haaland. They could do one there. They might be the best coach team in the tournament. Their coach has done an incredible job of maximizing what they're good at and trying to hide as much as possible what they're bad at. It's like, we can't defend wide. So we're just going to like, we're going to turtle up.

32:58And then the minute we win the ball, it's go, go, go. We're sending a bunch of numbers forward. Holland, Holland, Holland, where's Holland? Oh, he scored. Oh, he scored again. It'll be interesting to see if Tuchel, when they get Norway on Saturday, whether Tuchel starts Stones or even Dan Byrne to deal with Holland lurking back there. Because even Gabriel, who plays for Arsenal for Brazil, like seemed small against him. and they're going to need to muscle up with him.

33:27Bill Simmons:So big picture, we're parachuting above this tournament. It feels like it's been an A or an A+. Yeah, all World Cups have black eyes and things where you're like, whoa, that happened. And certainly this one has. But as a sporting event and as a piece of a spectacle, it's just been incredible. How was that like this? The point you made earlier about all the best guys are playing their best is the number one thing you would want with any of these things. Like, I hope that's what happens in 2028 when they have the Olympics basketball, right? You want all of these guys to also be at their best when they're going against each other.

34:03It feels like that's been happening.

34:04Bill Simmons:And then the Cape Verde thing was incredible. Yeah. And even America, just even getting to where they got to today was really fun. I just ordered a jersey. I can't wait to wear it. Cape Verde. And the fact that Messi can still do it at this level, but it feels like out of anybody in the tournament, even though all these guys are absolutely super famous, it feels like Holland has won over the casual fans the most. Because the people that aren't watching, you know, Sunday at six in the morning on Pacific time and just kind of parachuted in these cups, people are just like kind of dumbfounded by this guy.

34:39Yeah, he's probably the newest addition to the kind of super galaxy of stars that we have. Yeah. Him and Bellingham. So if you watch England and you watch Real Madrid, Jude's not like a new name or anything. But I think his performance in Mexico was like, that's the kind of thing they write songs about. And both guys embrace it. Like you said earlier, they play up to the stardom. Jude does the patented wide arms and Holland has all of his celebrations. He's hilarious on social media. I saw his tweet got like 22 million views in the first two hours that it was posted. His selfie after the win.

35:16Bill Simmons:It has 91 million now. Maybe it's 100 by this point. And he's just hilarious. And he's so quintessentially Norwegian, right? It fits every stereotype that people think of when they think of the Vikings and then they're doing the rowing and everything. And they've definitely probably been the fan base that has won over the most people too because of the iconic row. For sure. People on Broad Street in Philly rowing yesterday right after Norway won. I can't tell you guys, living in Philly where we've had Ecuadorians, we've had Brazilians, we've had the French, the Iraqis, We've had the Paraguayans.

35:48Just seeing the different communities. The Croatians were awesome. Seeing the different communities cycle in and out of the city for the last two, three weeks. And then the 4th of July being Saturday with France game. And then downtown Center City was just absolutely jumping all night Saturday into the wee hours in the pouring rain. The city has never been more fun. Being a host city has been a dream. And I can't wait till we get to do it again in 12 years. Yeah. The games are on the other side of town for LA, but it's been so cool to see like the Mexico fans showing out, especially in the East side of LA.

36:20And like, uh, I was at the, I watched the Ecuador game at a bar and it was just like, this is, this is what it's all about. It's so fun.

36:28Bill Simmons:Well, and the best thing for us here, it's not the case everywhere, but for here, the games are on at normal times that we can construct days around. And that's been, you know, something we lose when the thing is overseas, the games are on in the middle of the night and weird shit like that. Um, And I think that's going to happen with the Olympic basketball too, which will be a shorter version of this. But same thing. All the primetime games and all that stuff, everybody will be watching. I think it's been an A+. I've loved it. I've loved the gambling. I love the irrational confidence I have now.

37:00Bill Simmons:I was like, there's no way Portugal beat Spain today. It's not happening. I don't see it. It's the dream World Cup. I mean, the sports books have gotten crushed. the back-to-back times where Mbappe, Kane, and Haaland both scored two goals. Mbappe, Messi, and Haaland both scored two goals. People were just... I mean, if you bet any good player, they automatically score. It's like this has been a dream. Well, the two-goal bet too, right? If you're in the Haaland, two goals with Norway to win, which is usually like four to one, five to one, and you're just cleaning up on those. What were you going to say, CR?

37:31I was just going to ask whether or not you thought there would be much of a post-tournament kind of accounting of the Balogun red card and Trump getting involved in sports karma or anything like that?

37:46Bill Simmons:I think if the game wasn't such a blowout, I don't think. If he scores and we went 2-1 or if he scores the final pen, it's a much bigger story. Trump could have done anything he wanted and we weren't going to beat Belgium in that game. The fact that they were just resting guys that would have been two of our best five guys, I don't know. I think that one will come and go. I do think it was interesting, though. Interesting precedent being set of the president being like, huh, sports. What if I should get in and throw my elbows around a little bit here? I think he has a very open audience in FIFA.

38:24Yeah, I mean, they conjured up a prize for him. Yeah, I think it's a two-way street. And, you know, one of the things that makes the World Cup so fascinating as a historical object is, like, the crossing of the streams of politics and governments from these different countries and how they get involved with what happens on the field. So it's not the first time that's happened, but it was certainly like, holy shit, he's really doing this.

38:52Bill Simmons:Can you imagine if he had also gotten involved in the Jalen Brown trade? Yeah. I don't like this. I have a full investigation trying to figure out what the Celtics are doing here. He called it a veto. Yeah. Do you have a Jalen Brown trade opinion before we go? I know you did this on gambling show. I've always loved Jalen Brown. I'm so happy to have him. I think it's, it is going to be weird. I'll be honest. Like we'll be a better regular season team. It's going to be fun. They had to do it. It makes a lot of sense. I'm, I'm pleasantly intrigued, but I don't know. Things just always end badly. I'm programmed to expect the worst with the, with the Sixers much like I am with the U S men's national team in the round of 16.

39:28But you know what? I already have my eyes on it. Copa America, 2028. We need to get more matches against good teams. We can't just keep beating up on CONCACAF. And that's going to be the chance to do that.

39:38Bill Simmons:Well, even in the 2020s, having... You know, this is the big difference between where we were 12 years ago, which a lot of the guys that we had out there are guys that are... You said this before the tournament. Guys that are in good leagues playing on good teams. So, you know, you figure that keeps going. That's going to be an interesting development over the course of the next couple of years. I saw a couple of MLS teams have been talking about, like, they want their model to be like, we develop young players and sell them to Europe. And that's going to be both financially good. And it's also good for like U.S.

40:09soccer because those guys will then get experience in these, in these leagues and making it less about the designated players and seeing if they can get a Messier or Lewandowski to come play for them. Those kinds of developments are probably good for the U.S. MNT if bad for MLS, maybe, or maybe not. But the ultimate thing that they're going to really want is to create, how do, how do U.S. national teams play and create this kind of playing identity that I think Poch could probably do. I just don't know if he's going to stick around for the long haul. I hope he does. I love Mauricio Pochettino.

40:42He has done such a great job with this team. And I know today went really badly, but I still think he's the man for the job. And look, he's bought in. We like him. He likes us. Kumbaya. Let's have some fun.

40:55Bill Simmons:The Netflix audience, we did a little poll who's going to win the World Cup and Netflix audience says France, but only 54%. Who was second? I don't know. Gahal didn't tell me who was second. I'll tell you this. If Norway sticks around 16-1, 17-1, that's just a fuck it bet for me. It would be very England to go win at the Azteca and then show up flat Saturday.

41:19Bill Simmons:We can hear on the Mringer Gambling Show. Keep doing those social media clips you're doing as well. And we'll have to have you on one more time before the end of the World Cup. I'm sad, but we press on. There's more soccer to be had. We're going to take a break and I'm going to come back with old friend Jason Concepcion right after this. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We're in the heart of the World Cup. Look at these little special bottles for Michelob Ultra. Every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26. For you, the stakes are just this high. Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26.

41:56Bill Simmons:It's giving you a chance to win $1 million worth of tickets and prizes. Michelob Ultra, from the pitch to the poor, Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com slash SuperiorAccess slash FIFA World Cup 2-6. Michelob Ultra, FIFA World Cup 26, SuperiorAccess. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. Residence 21+. Begins on December 1st, 2025. Ends on July 31st, 2026. Multiple entry periods. visit www.micleobultra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. All right. CR is still here. I am. Old friend, Jason Concepcion is here.

42:43Bill Simmons:You can hear him on the Wait a Second podcast. I made an appearance early. I'm due for another appearance. Ironically, cut back a little on the pods the next couple of weeks, probably one to two a week for the next three weeks. One of the reasons is I got to do my Zodiac deep dive. Got to get ready for this, my Zodiac killer. Wait a second appearance. Jason, you just watched the USA game. We just covered it for 40 minutes, but give us, give us your takes watching from afar. My main takeaway was I knew we were in trouble when we were doubling Leo Trossard early. I knew we were in trouble when Leo Trossard, who is one of my favorites for Arsenal, super sub microwave score as an Arsenal supporter, love him.

43:30He's maybe 5 '7". I don't know what the stats on him are, but he's holding off our defenders like he was prime Shaq. And I knew at that point, like, we just didn't have the physicality to be in this game. We came out soft. We looked like we were afraid of contact. We didn't initiate any contact. We weren't getting up in the air. And just a bad performance all around at every level.

43:58Bill Simmons:You know what I realized? Actually, just over the last 40 minutes, Jason. What's that? Sierra's Team England. No, that's not. Come on. This is the good son. Be respectful. No, you're sad. You're sad we lost. But really deep down. I have dual citizenship in the globe of soccer. No, you let go of Macaulay Culkin tonight and you're holding on to Elijah Wood, England. That's what's happening. Have you been obsessed with the World Cup, Jason? What's been your relationship with it? I love the World Cup. I've been, you know, much like Alexi Lalas, I've been waiting with bated breath, lo these 20, it feels like, years but more for the U.S.

44:43to kind of finally upshift out of this get one game into the knockouts and then get knocked out mode, which it seems like no matter what the talent is. And certainly I think this is the most offensively capable team that I can remember seeing since I started paying attention. We still got knocked out because, listen, there's a reason that Tim Ream at 38 is still starting for the squad. And that's because you saw what the team looked like against Turkey. A and, um, it wasn't good when he didn't play. And we're, so we're just not, we, there's always something. And this time it was that we just couldn't get organized in the back and just looked shambolic, had a good strategy, I think, but just didn't execute in, in moments.

45:36And it all fell apart. It's just like in basketball in a playoff series when somebody's like, that guy can't defend. Everything runs at him. You know, I think they knew Reem in certain circumstances was going to be a problem for us. And, you know, his athleticism is much diminished. And I think that they started like saying, like, let's test this dude. And obviously, then he kind of went on tilt a little bit, I think, but it was, it was, we got picked on in that department.

46:02Bill Simmons:Yeah, it's funny. I really got into soccer 08-09 range which was when I really like started become watching it and trying to understand. Who can forget your brief love affair with Tottenham Hotspur. Yeah. And if you go back in my archives, there's a couple of decent calls. It's been read multiple times to me over the course of the couple of weeks. Yeah. But, and then my daughter started playing and I was in this whole club soccer world. One of her first coaches said something that has always stuck with me ever since. Because when we went to 11s, we, you know, you go from like 9v9 to 11v11. and the coach said, yeah, 11s are tough because if you don't have 11, the ball always finds the person you don't want it to find.

46:42Bill Simmons:And it felt like we had, the two for me was poor Reem, who's 38, not totally his fault. And then Dest, who I just didn't really trust. And it just felt like, and they also kept attacking the sides too in a way that I thought seemed intentional in the first half, but just felt like the ball was always finding the wrong people in this game. And that's what happens in soccer. Yeah. Desks were completely washed. It was tough. Yeah, and like that's... If I was going to take like a kind of silver lining, I think these are the kinds of problems that more accomplished nations also face where you're like, Oh man, well, like we haven't quite figured out right back or we haven't quite figured out the right side of our midfield or we need a center back to replace Reem.

47:23Like other countries have had to deal with stuff like this. We don't necessarily have the most eye-popping talent pool where you're like, Well, obviously this dude is coming next, but I'm sure there are US soccer freaks out there who are like screaming at their televisions or their phones right now being like I know who's next it's coming you know but it's like I think that I think we're actually the problems that we have are the are good problems to have you know they're they're soccer problems not like can anybody on this team play right I agree I completely agree with that I think that the people forget like you look at the World Cup and it's like everybody mostly plays bad.

48:01Even the really good teams mostly play below their level. I think part of the thing that's so frustrating for the U.S. is like, we are bad at minimizing the holes in our squad, and that seems to be a recurring issue year after year. And for instance, I'm not saying that we should become overnight like a Paraguay-style shithousery squad, right? But we're like never pulling a jersey, like ever. Hardly ever are we pulling a jersey. Hardly ever are we going hard into a tackle on purpose. And it's like those little things can minimize some of your shortcomings sometimes. And we play like we're above that sometimes.

48:56and to your point, CR, it's also the fact that while this is the most talent that I can remember seeing, particularly on the offensive side, it's also not great. We don't have any world-class players. Yeah. It would be nice to have a top six Premier League player, like a top six club guy on our team and we just don't yet.

49:17Bill Simmons:Do we need like a Draymond Green type? Can we brainwash? Do we need luxury? Some sort of midfielder? He's just like, getting very close to the line game after game, you're worried about him? Maybe? If he could also pass and play in tight spaces. Like if we, you know, if we could somehow produce a, if we could somehow produce a Busquets, like in this country. You want to produce an Argentinian, basically. Yes, somehow. Yeah. Somehow, you know? JC, who is your MVP of the World Cup so far? We still have two weeks left. I think Holland, just in the way that he's captured people's imagination. And in the way that he just always scores.

49:56He always scores, and you know what's going to happen. He seems to lollygag through periods of play where he's just kind of strolling around, and then he sees a sequence unfolding, and he just is in the right spot. The way he runs, the way he seems to play up his Viking ogre kind of image at moments, and his clear sense of humor, I just think he's been unreal. He's been dealing at an unreal level.

50:28Bill Simmons:CR, no John Wick bad guy stuff for him or anything? Is Hollywood investigated him at all? He plays for Manchester City, so nobody except for Waz likes them. And so it's like he plays for the most sort of evil empire team that's in the Premier League, I think. Okay. But just to go along with what Jason's saying, like Holland would be my number one pick and number two, 1A would be Messi who could be doing a 2019 Tigers Masters here. You know, like this could be like going out like the goat that he is. Yeah, and Bellingham I think is the other one who even the real soccer fans know who that is but the super casual ones are like, wow, this guy's really good, number 10 on England.

51:12Bill Simmons:I think he was just incredible in the Mexico game yesterday. For some Man City context, Bill, they're currently facing 115 Premier League charges for circumventing their version of the salary cap. So it would be like if there were 115 Kawhis. Yeah. And you're talking to an Arsenal and a Liverpool fan. So yes, we do take it personally. Yes, we do take it personally. Well, it's funny. When I was thinking about, when I was trying to pick my EPL team in 07, everyone was telling me how they were the Clippers. They were like the sad sack Clippers. Yeah, and then that quickly flipped. Favorite national anthem, JC?

51:53Bill Simmons:Wow. Anything really knock your socks off as we hear? Dude, Mexico last night was incredible. Yeah, Mexico. I thought Mexico was great last night. Mexico was bone chilling last night. I will also say, one note I have for Poach and Team USA, I love, why don't we do the arms around each other? Wait for John Denver or during the anthem? Just during the anthem. Everybody else is like arm in arm and singing it. It's a good note. And we're like a foot away from everybody. I think France's anthem is still really strong. Yeah. Yeah, Marseillet is great. Yeah. I think that's way up there too. There's been some clunkers.

52:34Bill Simmons:I don't want to name any countries, but there's a couple where we're like, wow. that's it? That's what you're rolling with? You know, the Brazil anthem, when it's in Brazil, you're like, this is the most incredible thing I've ever heard. But when it plays at MetLife, you're kind of like, where's this one going? You know, because it just doesn't have the entire crowd is into it. CR, what would be your move? Would you be a close your eyes and sing? Or would you be a belted out? Or would you just be trying to stay cool? I think personally, I would go the route of the Mexico players who are just crying and screaming at the top of their lungs.

53:10I'm not too cool for the anthem in that case. Would you do that, JC? A little crying? Some tears? You would see the chords in my neck standing out. That would be the level of intensity. You would be like Nick Sirianni, just like tears bubbling out of your face but no singing.

53:30Bill Simmons:I would do the head back with the eyes closed, the intense one. I always think that one looks really great. Who do you have winning the cup, Jason? I mean, this is not some wild prediction, but I think this is France's tournament. This means it's not going to happen. Everybody's saying that. Usually when everybody agrees on that, then the rules of soccer have to trump it somehow, right? I picked Spain to win it, but I picked Spain to win it based on this stupid idea I had that Germany was going to beat France earlier. and obviously that was quite wrong. So don't listen to me. But it just does seem like whatever game you want to play, France can play it.

54:13If you want to have a shootout, they'll kill you. If you want to try and kick them, they don't care. If you want to sit back, they don't care. There's nothing you can do to really fluster them unless what DiBondo said, which is like, can Spain keep the ball away from them forever?

54:29Bill Simmons:The only thing you can do to fluster France is to give them a lead with two minutes left in an NBA game. And then I'll just start ripping the ball around. Too soon.

54:43Bill Simmons:CR, what would... How many more wins does England need now? Four quarters. That'd be three more wins. Would that change your life? I mean, I'm from Philadelphia. I think it would be incredible for my family. And I would just... I wish I would be there. I'm sure it would be just an amazing experience to be in England for that to happen. That's actually where my parents met was during the 66 World Cup. So it would be very tempting to want to go over there for the celebrations. But it is, it's still like I'm playing dress up a little bit. You know, I can't shed the soccer hipster accusations that easily.

55:24Bill Simmons:And who are you rooting for, JC? Who's your team now? You're just jumping on Norway, that's it? But for years I've been, and I remain this, it's France with the Netherlands as a backup. So obviously France, but now I'm going France, Norway. Okay. Okay. I'm going to root for Norway and I'm going to bet on them at 17 to one or whatever the hell it is and do it that way. I don't think that's that bad of a bet. Yeah, I don't. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We're in the heart of the FIFA World Cup 26. Every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26. For you, the stakes are just this high.

56:00Bill Simmons:Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26. It's giving you a chance to win$1 million worth of tickets and prizes. Michelob Ultra, from the pitch to the poor, superior is worth playing for. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26. Michelob Ultra, FIFA World Cup 26, superior access. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. Residence 21 Plus begins on December 1st, 2025, ends on July 31st, 2026, multiple entry periods. Visit www.mickelobalture.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.

56:42Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG. If I'm ever traveling for work, where I stay is so important. I actually really care about this because sometimes I even have to do a podcast wherever I'm staying. In general, I don't go on the road that much, but when I go on the road, I like to be in a nice hotel with a nice room. I'm spoiled. If you sound like me, check out Holiday Inn. It has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. You'll see it everywhere from refreshed rooms to re-imagined social spaces and dining done right with new drinks and dishes. And for business, there are flexible spaces that work for the way You work.

57:23Bill Simmons:It's a new day and a new stay. Book now at HolidayInn.com. This episode is brought to you by TikTok. Did you know you can use TikTok to connect even more with the sports you love? It's not just highlights. It's everything around the game, including the sports community. Find breakdowns of classic basketball plays, deep dives on baseball stats, even videos on how athletes train and recover. There are people teaching strategy, sports, history, even ways to improve your jump shot. it's kind of like the biggest locker room ever and everyone sharing what they know on TikTok so now we have soccer dying we're going to go down to less games and then the tournament's going to be over and then we're all going to be staring at each other Wimbledon's is about as boring as it gets basketball we are now moving into this LeBron, he's orchestrating this perfectly you can't pretend like nothing is happening in sports when we can do a frame by frame analysis of Brad Stevens' press conference So that was the most exciting thing that happened non-soccer today was the Celtics press conference, which I respect that they had to say what they're going to say.

58:29Bill Simmons:But on the one hand, we didn't want to have 70 % of the cap tied up with two guys. Okay. But then they also tried to trade for Giannis, who would have tied the cap up with 70%. And also Paul George makes$50 million a year. So I still don't know. Jason, you haven't. Sierra and I have talked about this in the pod already. You haven't given your take yet. What is it? Well, my take was, and I'm waiting for it, is the classic Brian Curtis, now they tell a story because it simply must be there. The only answer to this is... All the whispering about the relationship between Tatum and Brown, all that stuff must have really amounted to something.

59:14And they really must have felt like, listen, Brown is not going to submit to the kind of team that this was in the past. And we will not dedicate ourselves to the kind of team that Brown wants. And it's going to be a problem if we let it go any further than this. Clearly, they were under the gun. and it's interesting that Brad Stevens said nothing that betrayed them being under the gun. He made it to your point, he really framed it as a purely fiscal decision when it's like don't you still have two players amounting to that much money? Well, he did

59:50Bill Simmons:use the word usage which I thought was the one slip where he was like when you have 70 % of your cap tied into two players and a high usage for those two players we came to the conclusion that this isn't going to work. And I thought usage means we don't need to pay two guys to just trade, do dueling banjos anymore with the way the league is. Was my interpretation, is that fair? Yeah, that's fair. It's exactly, I mean, he was like, it's kind of like what Kirk said during the colonoscopy pod when he was just like, they want to be a one. You're the one who called the pod that. I know, now that is what it's called now.

1:00:27I know. it's like they wanted to be a one contract team. They want, well, that's what they say they wanted. Yes, they were looking for Giannis. Maybe they feel like Giannis was like this big or a better trade asset they could have spun or whatever. I don't think we're going to know who won this trade or whether it was a giant mistake by Boston until next spring because I think they'll be, you were saying this with Zach, they're going to be good in the regular season. They're going to be good. Has good regular season basketball teams.

1:00:54Bill Simmons:They play. It's going to be good. Hugo be better, Shia, I'm going to be better. To JC's point about the now they tell us, I don't think it's going to happen just because I think they're so conscious about what's happened with the Red Sox and Patriots in years past when those pieces come out after the fact. And everybody in Boston is too crazy about sports and knows all the signs and can read between the lines of pieces like that. And I just don't think they're going to do it. I think they're going to take the high road if there is stuff. I don't see them doing it. The only stuff that's going to come out is this ancillary stuff.

1:01:31Bill Simmons:Like, you know, I talked about this on the pod a week ago, but Brown and Tatum being in France together, but not interacting. And people that were there, like, this is weird. They're one guy's over there and just like, and, you know, Tatum taking forever. Kind of like how Embiid hasn't done the welcome to Philly post yet for Jalen Brown. Like, you can read between the lines with some of this stuff. CR. You just can. I guess that's true. I mean, I saw that Embiid was at the Brazil match in full Brazil regalia. I was going to say, we might not have to wait for Now They Tell Us because we'll just have to wait for Jalen to do a Twitch stream where he's like, now I'll tell you.

1:02:11He did one the night that the trade happened and seemed to be pretty confused and pretty upset. And I think he's getting his head around becoming a rival. He's going to a rival team. I think that he's a competitive dude and he probably was like, I will be a Celtic probably for life. The Celtics thing is so strange to me because there's on one hand this mythology about their relationship to their star players and those players' relationship to the city, but this modern era has been about turnover. Isaiah Thomas, the Kyrie and Gordon Hayward iteration, Paul Pierce and KG being traded to Brooklyn.

1:02:51Those guys don't sell late. you know like whatever they do Marcus smarts or yeah they don't like it's like yeah we're gonna take a beating for two months and then people are gonna be gonna be back at the garden so like I respect it I think that sometimes they get a little bit of like like they get like a little bit too much leeway when it comes to like we're like a institution that really respects the players who play for us and keeps them in our hearts and it's like you guys fucking trade people when they have like dislocated hips like give me a break but

1:03:21Bill Simmons:I, oh, geez, CR. I'm just saying. It's hurtful. I'm in a lot of pain this week. No, I mean, the Isaiah Thomas thing was tough to defend, but that was previous ownership. I will say the new owner, Chisholm, looked like he was getting a root canal during that press conference. Yeah, he did. You go from like, oh my God, I bought my favorite team. I'm going to bring my whole family. We're sitting courtside. This is so great. I'm having such a good time. And now, you know, the worm has turned. If Chisholm was still like a writer, we were still doing this, we would probably have a Tom Dundon, Matt Ishbia, Bill Chisholm group chat post that we were manufacturing.

1:04:01With that in mind, CR, here is what I would pitch to you and be like, CR, I'm working on a take. I don't... This is all I have, but help me flesh this out because I think this is a piece. The second apron era has turned every owner into James Dolan. Yes. That's a great take. high turnover you're drinking

1:04:23Bill Simmons:dole and juice yeah every contract is a bad contract yeah it's like so hard to be smart the cap fights against itself to retain your best player you have to give them a contract that's immediately bad immediately and it's all about depth but now but like the rosters are squeezed and inevitably everybody who's smart looks dumb under this under this regime yeah even look at mark walters in the and the lakers like the dodgers would keep lebron on the team and just have him like wave at the crowd every every every night like they don't care about money but like he obviously knows that that team is going to be decimated if they have luca lebron and ar like all on like that that salary tier so you're right jason it's just like the idea of like a cuban or a balmer who's going to be like i'll just spend my way out of it you know like nope it's not going to happen anymore.

1:05:21Bill Simmons:Well, this starts, previous version of this, the connective tissue was the Bradley Beal contract where the Wizards were like, well, fuck, what are we going to do? I mean, he's our best player. And the moment they sign it, it becomes one of the worst contracts in the league. Now we have the next version of this, which is you kind of can't have two of these. So the Pistons are, you know, Pistons won 61 games last year. They didn't even know if they want to bring Durham back because the moment that contract is$8 million a year too high, it has all of these crazy ramifications the other way. When Brown signed for$304 million, the mistake in retrospect was maybe trying to knock that number down a little, but it was Wick, the previous owner.

1:06:06Bill Simmons:He wanted to take care of his guys. They just won the title. And, you know, it plays out the way it plays out. But it's weird to hear a team say, look man I know he was sixth MVP last year but that contract's a little too rich for my blood like we do ringer ringer 100 I don't care where you have Jalen but if you had him outside the top 20 that would have been insane there's 30 teams yeah I think there's a corrosive effect that we're going to see over time too where you know there's a connection with players that yeah yeah that cities have and I mean watching that video of the kid crying because Jalen Brown was his favorite player it's like that's that's real that happens and I think if you have a system that's based on just too much of that who knows what you lose like obviously the parody era from the perspective of the actual parody is a success they wanted to create this and they've created it with eight new champions in a row.

1:07:14It's unprecedented. But, you know, the league was built on a specific kind of dominance that allowed characters to develop over time with the fan base, and there is a connection with teams and with the communities around them that maybe is getting severed, you know, and is that good? And also with this model of having one big star and then a lot of turnover in your two through ten, say, of your roster. It's the football motto. It's the quarterback with everybody else. I mean, like, the Sixers have kind of done that around Embiid and Star 2 over the last ten years. And it's soul-deadening after a while, where you're like, who is this year's Marco Bellinelli?

1:08:01Who is this year's J.J. Redick? Who is this year's Robert Covington? Who is this year's X, Y, Z? It's kind of awesome, even though the Knicks were, like, somewhat thrown together. Mitchell Robinson was the longest-tenured Nick. It's kind of awesome to watch that core come together piece by piece over the years and develop and build out. And those guys are now folk heroes. They'll never buy another drink or a Chipotle Bowl in New York City again. And fewer and fewer teams are going to have that if they all abide by this. Like, well, we can have one star. And then it's up to the GM to just find the right rotation of guys every year.

1:08:38Bill Simmons:it's it's a huge issue for the league i don't think they see it i think they're just focused on how much can we make from the media deal can we add two expansion teams can we grow the league can we create nba europe um every decision they're making is financial which includes this last cba where you have this second apron and i've talked about this with other sports too you you're basically it's a protection against yourself yeah it's it's like uh if if like i give one of my kids It's like a credit card they can use, but it's got a limit on it. And it's like, if you go over the limit, the card just automatically can't only use the gas stations.

1:09:14Bill Simmons:Yeah. That's what the second apron is. It's like, yeah, you can, you can go above the second apron, but your picks get frozen. You can't make two for one trades. Um, there's all these tax repeater shit that happens and you have to be a fucking idiot. And you see somebody like James Dolan, who, you know, has not been shy about spending money. That's for sure. He gives away every court side seat around the team. Like it, you know, on the one hand, doesn't seem to care about money at all. But even he understands, yeah, we can't have Mitchell Robinson anymore. We're going to have to replace him with Andre Drummond and he'll cost$12 million less.

1:09:48Bill Simmons:But this is what we have to do. By the way, since JC's here, you've been on the podcast since the Knicks won the 2026 NBA championship. Yeah. What happened? You were just like, was it like the end of the Odyssey? What was it like for you? Don't give away the end of the Odyssey. Spoiler on a 3 ,000 year old story. People know the work. I can honestly say that game four into game five was the peak of my life. I'm not even joking. It was the most remarkable period of my life that I've ever felt. I flew back for the parade. It was just like Like, I got to a point in my life, you know, you watch 20 years of bad Knicks teams after the 90s.

1:10:39And so I got to a point where I was like, you know what? Let's just be good. Let's just get in the mix. Get in the playoffs every year. Be respectable. Don't be a dumpster fire. Don't be a scandal-plagued 17-win team. Like, just compete. And I'm fine with that. So I had put away, for real, any actual hope that I would ever see this. And to see it has been incredible.

1:11:07Bill Simmons:So it was like you were in the rom-com where you're giving up on love, and then finally you found somebody on a trip to Tuscany. That was it. That is 100 % right. Now, I will say this, and this is very not like me. After we smoked the Cavs, smoked that Cavs pack, in the Eastern Conference Finals. I was texting, you know, my Knicks groups and I'm like, I really, I think we're going to win it. I think we're going to win it. If you, especially if we got the Spurs, just looking at the underlying stuff, we'd beat them, what was it? Two out of three in the season. Pretty comprehensively on the same game plan every time.

1:11:48We almost beat them in the game we lost. You guys won the cup against them, right? Won the cup against them in a game that they were trying to win. The Knicks did the double. They did. Didn't get no credit for it.

1:11:59Bill Simmons:When do you raise the banner? Do you have to separate the banners? What happens? There should be a double banner with an attachment where the cup banner attaches to the bottom of the regular banner. And let me also say, to critique Adam Silver a little bit more, that's his baby, the cup. And the fact that they didn't play up much more, this historic double that has happened. A new bar has been set for NBA greatness. A new bar in an era of parity. In an era of parity, a new bar has been set. The Cup predicted the NBA Finals. And for the first time in its history, a team has done the double, won both.

1:12:45And that should be trumpeted everywhere. And it frankly hasn't. And that is a miss from Adam Silver in the NBA.

1:12:54Bill Simmons:53 years felt like it kind of trumped the cup, which I understand. Yeah, I get it. When they were down a lot of points in game four. Sure. Because this, I went through basically the same experience you did with the Red Sox in game four and game five against the Yankees. Yes. Where it's like two, these sporting events that just blend together now where I don't even remember what happened in what game anymore. But there were also like a couple of dark moments where you really like look at your past and you'd think like, oh man, and the real doubt starts creeping in. That must have happened in game four a couple of times, right?

1:13:31Game four, it wasn't the full existential doubt because I still thought, okay, we'd go back. You thought you were better. I thought, yeah, I thought we'd go back to, especially after, yeah, I thought we were the better team and I thought we were going to win the series. So I thought, okay, we go back to San Antonio. I think we can still win the series. But that said, you know, down 29 in the second quarter I just turned the sound off. I'm like, okay, this is a wash. We're not winning this game.

1:13:57Bill Simmons:Well, you had Trump game three, flipping the karma, and then down 29 in game four. Absolutely. And despite the fact that I'd seen all these comebacks now going back two, three seasons, I was just like, okay, you know, just like, that's it. We're not going to get this one. That's fine. And I didn't start to get, like, feel that a little. I mean, it was 2018, like in the middle third and even into that fourth. But when they couldn't, when the Spurs couldn't make it more than that, I started to get, you know, I started to get really interested. And then, you know, as the run was developing, you started to feel it.

1:14:39And they just, the Spurs looked so tired. They looked absolutely gassed. I thought the one, you know, obviously the Knicks don't want to go down double digits early in every single game. But it was very smart of them that no matter how many blocks Wemby would have in the first quarter, they just kept running at him. Run at him. Make him jump. Make him turn around. Make him react to things. And it's like a boss battle where you're just chipping away at the energy bar of the video game boss so that you get to the end and he's tired. And that's what happened. Every single game followed that exact plan.

1:15:14Bill Simmons:CR, do you think new Spurs head coach, Billy Donovan, and we'll be able to fix some of that stuff. I don't know if he has the title yet. We forgot to put you on this Google Meet, Mitch. My bad. Hey, guys, was there a meeting? No, no, no, no. Oh, yeah, Mitch, we forgot to tell you. We just didn't want to waste your time, honestly. Yeah, no, no, I just got together with the other assistants. We just wanted to come up with some ideas for you. No, you want to give a speech? Go for it, yeah. We'll just circle back afterwards and maybe just clean that up a little bit. That's like we just did from how we did Hand That Rocks a Cradle where she hires Rebecca DeMornay.

1:15:47Bill Simmons:It's like, don't hire Rebecca DeMornay as your daddy. It's like, oh, Billy Donovan. He's only won a couple titles and coached two other teams. That was really, actually, Jason's description of this whole experience was so moving that I'm going to trash the joke I was going to make about them raising not only the NBA Finals banner, the cup banner, but also the contract of payments, of dark money payments to Jalen Brunson that they're obviously making. Let me just say this. Yeah, can we do that on Wait a Second? Can we, can we? Let me just say this, and I'll say this in complete sincerity that it's just a thing that I've noticed, and I think everything is above board.

1:16:24It is notable the massive jump in production level that the Roommates pod underwent kind of suddenly. Yeah. Oh. The shootout of IMAX. But that being said, I am completely... I believe that everything is above board and right. Let me ask you this. Did you guys feel like it was a red flag in the moment, how much Popovich was talking to the team and making speeches?

1:16:51Bill Simmons:I didn't think it was a good thing. Like an early flag? Yeah, it was just weird that they were bringing a miniporn. And I wonder if the Spurs would rather that had not got out or if the Spurs were like, get this out, that Pop is still like the Newt Rockne of this team. Did you guys hear their film in the roommate's pod in 70 millimeter starting in September? 70 millimeter IMAX. They have Nolan's cinematographer. Yeah. It's just like, like this, Mikhail. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The T-Mobile Home Run Derby is right around the corner. Might be one of the best showcases of pure power in all of sports.

1:17:30Bill Simmons:Baseball's biggest sluggers, along with some legendary announcers. Pujols, Rizzo, Bonds, Sabathia, Al Duncan. Yeah. Hunter Pence, Matt Faskersian, A whole bunch of people. And it's the one night where you don't swing to make contact. You swing to make history. I'm interested to see what Bond says about this, actually. Anyway, it is all live from Citizens Bank Park in Philly. Watch the T-Mobile Home Run Derby live on Netflix this Monday, July 13th at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. On the court, the pitch, the track, even the pool. Professional athletes show extraordinary physical flexibility.

1:18:09Bill Simmons:For us normal people, we've got PayPal's flexible monthly payment plans. Pay nothing at checkout, then enjoy a flexible monthly payment plan that works for you with no sign up or late fees. And it's available millions of stores. Pay monthly with PayPal. Subject to approval, pay monthly consumer loans made by WebBank. Available through PayPal Inc. NMLS 910457. Learn more at paypal.com slash pay monthly. so what TV are we supposed to watch as the World Cup winds down JC oh wow what are you into these days second season of the agency which is a show I know that cares about which is itself an adaptation of Le Bureau de L 'Agence from French television is out and I think it's it's not as good as the Bureau but to me it's good enough It's pretty good.

1:19:06It's pretty good. And the changes they made to make it to, you know, kind of like American intelligence it more, just hit for me.

1:19:15Bill Simmons:And I'm loving it. So I can run that back. I haven't watched one episode. Can I bang that out this month? Oh, yeah. You will like it. I think you will like it. Yeah. Is it shame Fassbender or just Fassbender? It's Fassbender pretending to be an American spy. And it doesn't totally work, but it's still pretty good. It's not like weird sex with his maid or anything? No, he's basically playing like... like a, yeah, I mean, he has some weird sex, but still like, yeah. That's part of the course with him. Yeah, he's a spy. CR, what's been your favorite thing of the summer? You know, there's a show on Apple called Star City that's been, it's like a spinoff of another show they have called For All Mankind and it's set in the Russian, the Soviet space program in the 60s and 70s and it's really great.

1:19:58Bill Simmons:that sounds like CR Mad Libs. That's, I can only be me. They have one of the co-showrunners of the Americans. It's the For All Man guy, guys, but it's really good. I've been hate-watching the living hell out of Cape Fear, which I think is one of the worst shows I've seen in the last five, six years. And now it's hit the point. It's six episodes in. I could tap out right now and not even care about what happened. Or do I just hate-watch my way through the rest of this? I'm more interested, like, when shows like this, when they don't work and they become campy, trying to read the signs of some of the...

1:20:38Bill Simmons:They have good actors in this. When did Amy Adams, felt like around episode four, episode five. I think when Amy Adams showed up on set and she was like, wait, you guys aren't all doing accents? It's just me. Right. The hope was starting to flicker out of her eyes, I would say. One of the things Apple does amazingly well from a comedy standpoint, it's the worst parenting you've ever seen in your life. And they'll do it over and over again with these wealthy families, some sort of drama crisis thing. And Apple's just like, do you think it'd be weird if these parents didn't care that their kid chopped his toe off and seems like a complete maniac and a destructive force to others and might be putting himself or other people in danger?

1:21:24Like, no.

1:21:25Bill Simmons:It's like, hey, Bobby, we're going to go out for dinner tonight. You stay home with the dog. They just, I don't know what it is. So at Apple, like this seems like their lane now, they have like three different lanes. And one of these lanes of these wealthy, crimey, um, families in disarray couples that hate each other. Like prestige. Yeah. Yeah. It's like prestige divorce, divorce pulp. Yeah. Um, did you finish the bear JC? I, I, I did not finish the bear, but I'm getting ready to, to struggle through it with all respect to the bear. I was a fan of the final season. I think you'll... Okay. They did the pit, right?

1:22:04Pit style? What's that? They did pit style? Just like everything in one day? It's set mostly in one day.

1:22:09Bill Simmons:Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. What are we missing now? CR, what are we missing now in the TV landscape? What are we not doing? I mean, there's a lot of genre stuff on Dragons pretty good this year, I think. It's just that we don't really have like, you know, that, I mean, we actually really don't have like a White Lotus-y succession kind of like normal people behaving badly show that everybody kind of falls in love with. Trying to think of like what's coming that's even exciting, but... Feels like it's drifting back toward movies. I made this point six, seven weeks ago where it fit. I wonder if the creativity is starting.

1:22:49Bill Simmons:I finally saw Obsession. Did you like it? Oh. It was really good. I didn't love the lead actor would be my one question. If Chalamet is in that movie, that's one of the best movies of all time. I think his bill is five times the budget of that movie. I get it. I'm just saying, if you put Chalamet in that lead part, we're talking about this movie for 25 years from now. I'm sure you did not see this, but the main actress from that movie, Indy Navarrete. Oh, he too? He too. Could be happening. Don't you know me at this point when you're like, I'm sure you didn't see this, but you were like anything happens without me knowing with heat too.

1:23:31Bill Simmons:Um, I have this question actually, speaking of heat, it's a mailbag question from Victor longtime fan, diehard magic fan in Orlando. Recently I was rewatching the town and the entire Fenway heist was for$3 million. Realizing this is what Bismack Biambo made for the Spurs this season. Had me thinking, are the prizes and heist movies too small? or are NBA contracts too big? What would Neil McCauley have had to do to get a year of Devin Booker's salary? You're the best man to resolve this issue. I have noticed this in some of our heist things where they're like, we got to take this down. And I want it to be like$29 million or something.

1:24:11You almost wonder if they should go back in ADR. Like, what's it? Because if you go back to like the 1950s Noirs and they're like robbing a horse racetrack and it's like, what's the take? 10 grand. Right. We got it. 10 grand, guys. And it's like, maybe we should go back in and be like, a million dollars.

1:24:26Bill Simmons:It's like we were talking about when Jason was on for the Survivor, like, oh, that Mr. Beast bumped it to two million bucks. It's like, this was a million dollars in 2000. The NBA salary cap was $18 million in 2000 or whatever. How is it not$10 million to win Survivor now? So heist movies higher? Would you bump it up, CR? Yeah, but I think we actually have a lot of really ridiculous heist movies where they go for like, we're going to take a billion in crypto off this guy. It's just that those aren't as good as Den of Thieves and Heat in the Town and stuff. Do you want to quickly have the Heat 2 conversation?

1:25:00Yeah, let's talk about Leo being shirrless. This is the thing that has been rumored for a long time. I think everybody was waiting to find out if he was going to be Neil or Chris. And he's shirrless. He's going to be the star of the movie.

1:25:14Bill Simmons:I get asked this question all the time. And I'm sure both of you do too, from people in our lives. Like, what do you think? Is this really happening? I'm gonna listen I'm gonna go you're gonna go I'm glad I'm glad they're doing it I'm obviously gonna see it I obviously care that it's happening I am aware of every single casting anything that's happened with this thing I'm just nervous this one we've seen this go wrong I ended up not seeing gladiator 2 on the advice of many people um just in general some of the scary bad sequels that we've had that you end up just kind of forgetting happened. And Michael Mann, who, you know, our all time favorite, he's been on nine rewatchables movies, including today with Ali.

1:25:59Bill Simmons:But when you get directors in their 80s, JC. Yeah. Gets a little dicey. Like, I don't know if I want people directing expensive movies or running my NFL team or there's just. This was a conversation I was having with some friends recently. like who is the director in their 80s historically who was like crushing it and um i i think that there are there are different variables like but at the top level of triple a type of movie it's like kind of nobody kind of nobody like i 70s even gets dicey yeah yeah kubrick kubrick still had the fastball to the very end and to be fair to michael mann he's still from everything we've seen sammy recently still got it but yeah it people i know but this is pretty quick it is this is the difference is it's not just him making a movie what i would support if he was 100 years old or want to make movie it's just why haven't we done he too before now why are we doing it now i know he wrote the book but is it worth doing yeah i mean you could say and i will hear the argument that this is like Ridley Scott returning to the alien universe where it's like but Ridley Scott can still make two movies a year and they're not always that good and he shoots with five cameras and it seems like he's getting a little fast and a little sloppy the thing that gives me some confidence in Heat 2 specifically is the presence of Jerry Bruckheimer who himself is not a spring chicken, 82 years old but is like one of the great showmans and I hope that the combined forces of these two very old men will make up for whatever deficiencies the other has and make sure that this is like, I just don't think DiCaprio signs on for this and is like, let's hope it's okay.

1:27:53Bill Simmons:It is true. He has had impeccable taste over the years. And we do have the IP. We know what it is. Yeah, and he has to know there's going to be three things in this movie that I do that people are going to be breathless over. You know, and otherwise I just don't know why. Why would I Didn't he just do Ferrari then, you know, or whatever else? Like he just doesn't make his choices idly. Well, I saw, I won't spoil anything from the Odyssey today because I know you guys haven't seen it. There's also an embargo on it, I think. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. The only thing I'll say is Chris Nolan, guy who, you know, over the course of a long movie, there's going to be a couple set pieces in there.

1:28:36Bill Simmons:you know it's like like when you're watching an awesome wwe championship match there's gonna be a couple bumps that they thought about ahead of time and that you're gonna be like holy shit um and that's that's what a michael man when his movies are really cooking they'll have like three four sections in there that you're just like wow the stuff i'm most looking forward to in heat too also is stuff that hasn't, that is not heat. Like it's from, like it'll be either in the desert or it'll be in Central America or whatever. And it'll be like different than heat. So the city stuff will be cool, but I'm looking forward if they bring it page for page out for that stuff.

1:29:18Bill Simmons:There's another existential question here, JC. You know, CR has obviously known Sean longer than me. They've been friends since when? mid-2000s early 2000s yeah you've done a lot of big picture appearances with him seen a lot of movies um we started the rewatchables from a heat podcast we did heat i feel like is r.i.p uh-huh and i'm really gonna be interested to say i handle this i'll be interested to see how you handle this i think with heat too i feel like that's i feel like i should be in pole position for the first pod with CR. You are in pole position, Bill. I don't know. Maybe America decides.

1:29:59Why not all of you? Why not the triumvirate? Yeah.

1:30:04Bill Simmons:Maybe that's what needs to happen. Because I think let me just say as a fan. As a fan of y 'all also. That's what I want to see, is that trio. JC's saying don't choose CR, that it should just be me and Sean together, the three of us, for Heat 2. I don't know. Maybe we do a poll. America votes. America votes. We did the three heat or the four heat? Well, we've done two heats and Michael Mann. We have not done four heat yet. I'm ready because I have some thoughts from recent watches. I have more heat opinions. I didn't think I had any more heat opinions. We still have a couple of ways to go. We can do the blind heat rewatch.

1:30:50No notes. we can do heat, but we're not allowed to talk about De Niro Pacino. Like there's still, yeah, there's still a couple of tricks up our sleeve.

1:30:58Bill Simmons:Oh, that was my favorite one where we like, we give De Niro Pacino a red card in the first minute of the pod. They're just out of the pod. We're resting them for heat five. You're not allowed to do a Pacino thing at all. How excited are you for the Odyssey on a scale one to 10 JC? I'm excited. It's, I, it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's going to be a, like an iconic Nolan is one of the iconic guys currently working and you could argue that he's the best director currently working certainly the only one currently that would be allowed to make a film like this and I mean I'm all in considering that this has its roots in him not getting to make Troy it's been gestating that long I'm excited I'm excited I sat next to somebody you've both potted with over the years many times Mally Rubin in the screening today and let's just say she was digesting a lot popcorn or a lot of things a lot of things in a wheelhouse there's books I don't you know there's this whole other level for this movie that if you want to go back and then also dive into I was going blind I could barely remember anything from, you know, I read these books in high school, you know, so.

1:32:22Bill Simmons:So I was I was kind of re re re remembering a lot of the stuff that was in there. But I know there's an embargo. I saw people tweeting about it. I think you're allowed to say, like, I saw it and I liked it. But they're like full review and plot. I thought it was incredible. And most importantly, my guy, Matt Damon. You know, I still feel like he's alive in the Damon versus Leo thing. I know I'm like one of the only people holding on to it, but if we go best, best like seven Matt Damon movies versus best seven DiCaprio, I feel like he's in the mix. This is a very exciting argument to have. This is, it is a really interesting one.

1:33:00Bill Simmons:I just think his basketball reference page is better than people realize. I think I tried to do that. I tried to make a Damon versus Cruz take case that you guys laughed me out of your, off of a set for like during rewatchables, but Damon Leo is a good argument to make. I remember my HBO show 10 years ago, playing that one up right after The Martian because Damon had momentum. But Leo's been steady. He's a little bit younger. But Damon's career also, you go back to basically school ties is 92, 93 range. So he's been 35 years now banging out watchable movies. With Leo, I think you would have to say no Titanic.

1:33:42we don't put Titanic in the mix because I just think with Titanic it takes Leo to a level that Matt Damon has never seen

1:33:54Bill Simmons:honestly it might happen with the Odyssey I know Titanic was Titanic was a billion dollar movie that won a bunch of awards I don't know if that's not happening with the Odyssey it's fucking sold out all through the summer in LA already But like Titanic was the type of like cultural impact that like the Taliban had to ban it. Like it was that. That is true. You know what I mean? So people going eight, nine times. To be fair, they were banning stuff left and right. So. But when they were like, no music, no makeup for women. But and also Titanic cannot watch that movie in the borders of Afghanistan, period.

1:34:37Like, I think that is a crazy, crazy, crazy impact. it's a

1:34:41Bill Simmons:it's a pretty awesome achievement I'm really happy for Damon it is impeccably well cast okay and people know this I think from the IMDB do you guys know who Charlize Theron plays in this movie uh I forget but I I know that she's fairly important I wanna say it's Cersei maybe or she plays she plays Calypso oh Calypso okay and she's well cast oh oh yeah just gonna to say that. Also happy for my girl, Anne Hathaway. But yeah, no, it's really something. I'll be interested to see what the reaction is. It seems like everybody had that reaction. Like, holy shit. I'm excited for Bernthal. Just Bernthal.

1:35:23Bill Simmons:You want to know about the horse? You didn't talk about the horse. Your dad wasn't that big of a deal. So I intentionally read nothing and knew nothing. I knew a couple of the people that were in, but there were a couple where I was like and when I saw Berthal I gasped when Mallory started laughing and I was like I had no idea my guy he's here but those are the most fun kind of movies anyway The Odyssey what else are you looking for pop culture wise this summer Sierra anything? Me? Oh I can't wait for Resident Evil the Zack Greger follow up to weapons and it looks awesome JC? Same that you've you know loved the video games me too and the trailer knocked me out any reality nothing are you out on reality now jason no i'm i'm well i'll tell you my most dirty reality secret is below deck i watch it year-round oh my god the bravo show my wife like like just just inhales it what is it about below deck i don't really understand it it's a perfect reality procedural.

1:36:32It does the same formula over the course of like two episodes and it just does it like on an assembly line. It's Charter comes in, there is workplace dynamics, and then there is the cool down where they all go out to the club or whatever. But for me, the thing is, they're all truly working they're actually doing a crazy job out there on the high seas and you can't beat the stakes in reality television of if this all goes wrong somebody drowns interesting has that ever happened on Below Deck? it's almost happened several times it's almost happened

1:37:18Bill Simmons:my wife really enjoys the different people that come in that rent the boat the different types of people they pick and then really Johnny Damon she was all excited about that but she really likes the tipping at the end and the dynamics with that and whether the people I just I can never buy into it CR I gotta say this is the least amount of reality I've watched in a long time yeah you might be aging out between eras I'm also probably aging out I think when the challenge just became a professional sporting event and stopped having people screaming at each other and hooking up in a closet yeah nobody's hooking up in a closet or a bathroom or anywhere I was like I don't know I don't know where we go with this.

1:37:58Bill Simmons:All right, guys. I think we covered everything. I think so. America's gone. The Knicks are NBA champions. The Celtics are in complete flux. AJ Brown is on the Patriots. He too is coming out. Just a lot of crazy shit's happening right now. JC, I will see you on Wait a Second in the next couple weeks. Yes. CR, I will see you for your watchables the next week. People can watch us do Ali today. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal and Chris and Jack and everybody at Spotify. I'm going to be back one more time this week. Not sure when. So stay tuned for that. Thanks for watching on Netflix.

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