An NBA Scoring Boom, NFL Holiday Picks, 'Landman' Is on Fire, the Return of 'Stranger Things,' and the Future of TV With Kirk Goldsberry, Joe House, Chris Ryan, and Zoe Simmons

21:59Oh, yeah.

22:00Bill Simmons:So that had... That was... We thought Detroit was going to make it. That was kind of the tail end of their run, even though they made it last year. They were 53 wins that year. I don't... Either they lost... Did they lose Wallace? I'm just going to check this really fast. Did they lose Ben Wallace that year? They did. So they were kind of like... We were kind of looking for... Is there anybody else? Was it Miami? Miami had that kind of year after the title year. Toronto won 47. LeBron won 50 basically by himself. We had nobody on that team. The Bulls won 49, but that was one of those years where we were like, are we, is there, and meanwhile, all the action was in the West.

22:40Bill Simmons:This year, the three best teams are in the West, right? It's like unassailable. Those are the three best teams. I think Cleveland has a chance out of everybody we have in the East to climb up. But you mentioned, I think Detroit's a little closer to that conversation than you gave them credit for. Like, they're clearly three and there might even be two. Atlanta is the wild card to me because of some of the advanced stats with the non-trade lineups. I think that they have one of those lineups is like one of the best lineups in the league. The one with Porzingis and the three long guys and Alexander Walker.

23:17Bill Simmons:I'm not counting out Orlando yet. Right. That was one of the things I was going to talk about with you. When you look at the five-man lineups, Orlando's best five guys, the whole reason they made that trade, those guys are plus 19.7 when they all play together oh really with the Bain and the and then the two young the Boncaro, Wagner, Wendell yeah so that tells me there's room with bench stuff or it tells me their bench is terrible or maybe both but Atlanta's best five no trade is plus 14.8 and I think that means something because Atlanta has the trade possibility if they wanted to get nuts and trade them.

24:00Bill Simmons:They also had that giant trade exception if they wanted to just add one more bench guy. But I think they have the most room to kind of maneuver with the roster they have. If they, Detroit, everybody's throwing the marketing trade. I personally would not fuck with Detroit. I wouldn't do it. Zach and I talked about it Thursday. We used the, what would Sam Presti do rule. And we both agreed Sam Presti would not do anything. Right. No, he would have traded with Joe Dumars to elevate his draft position for next year, which is looking like an incredible move by Ansi in the Hawks' front office. Right.

24:33I love the Pistons.

24:34Bill Simmons:That's the thing, they have that crazy trade ship if they want to use it. They have this New Orleans pick that is going to be top six. And again, if we're doing what would Presti do, the move is to keep that pick and get a Chet Holmgren-type player on your team next year and be ready to go. And I love the Hawks, not just this year, but more so deep into the future. I mean, Jalen Johnson is great, and Dyson Daniels. They have such an identity now. But Detroit's the one. There's some Reese's Shea momentum. I don't know if you've been following. A little momentum with them. Reese's Shea, Reed Shepard, still a conversation in many practice facilities.

25:13But I want to push back on something. I love the Detroit Pistons. I thought they should have beat the Knicks in the playoffs last year. No disrespect to the Knicks. There were some tight calls there. I feel like Detroit was still learning how to win. They had this weird Malik Beasley thing, which in retrospect is, was very distracting. Um, but they're 15 and two man. Uh, and they look great protecting the paint and they look good attacking the paint. They have this Cunningham Duren pick and roll thing that is emerging as one of the most reliable two man games in the Eastern conference. Um, the shooting is a little questionable.

25:53Duncan Robinson is filling that role nicely, but still beyond Duncan if Tobias Harris isn't playing a lot. But I love Detroit. I think they deserve to be in the Knicks-Cavs conversation. If I had to elevate one team, it's definitely Detroit, and I'll take the 15-2 record as Exhibit A there.

26:13Bill Simmons:Yeah, I would have those three. I think Detroit has officially moved into the conversation with the other two now. I would still take Cleveland. And then Orlando is the wild card. And then Atlanta is the wild, wild card. Other than that, Milwaukee being a play-in team, but having Giannis come back for the last 45 games of the year and still having to see them in a one game or in a 2-7, something like that. I just don't want to see Giannis in a playoff series, especially with how driven he is. Now, they're a little under.500 now, and the longer he goes out, their lineups are really – all the stuff is really bad without him.

26:49Bill Simmons:I think the lineup they played the most without Giannis was like minus 19 or something. But in eye test wise, it's like, ugh. And then, you know, the Kuzma rollercoaster stuff. We'll take a quick break and then gonna come back and throw some other stuff at you. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. This Thanksgiving, FanDuel, introducing a brand new way to parlay together. Let's parlay together, everybody. It's called Pass the Leg. Here's how it works. Start a group, add your pick, then pass it to your friends so they can add theirs. When everyone's done, each look in the parlay with your own funds on top.

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28:37Bill Simmons:Terms and conditions apply. All right. Any other trends before we keep going? Well, I got, I got, you want one, the nerds are really talking about this one, which is picks, picks are in decline. So when you and I were growing up, it was dump it down to McHale or Jabbar. And the post game was, was the bread and butter action of, of pro basketball. You know, the D 'Antoni sons obviously made it a pick and roll game, but here we are in 2025 and the epicenter of this movement is in Miami. I don't know if you're following. Oh, I sure am. I hate that I like watching them. Oh, it's electric to watch.

29:15Bill Simmons:Yeah, they're really fun to watch. I hate myself. But it's also unprecedented. They're setting fewer screens than any team has in decades in the player tracking era by a wide margin. They're just saying, let's move the ball quickly and see if we can find a driving gap and attack it before anybody's ready, set on defense. So it's fun to watch. People are comparing it. It's like a run-and-shoot football offense. That's a great analogy. They're just going. They're trying to just get downhill and catch people when they're backpedaling. Seems to be their entire strategy, and it works. Yeah, they're number one in pace.

29:52They're setting the fewest picks in the league, and they're scoring by far more points per game, even though they're number 12 in offensive efficiency. But it's a brand-new look. I think last year Adebayo set 27 picks per game, Bill, if you want to drill down on a player level. He's had an eight picks a game this year. They're just doing something completely different. And they've gotten off to a really good start with a 12th-ranked offense without great offensive personnel. Remember, Tyler Harrow hasn't played much at all. Bam Adebayo's missed time. And they're number 12 on offense. And by the way, their team is built for defense.

30:31They're a top-five defense. If Harrow comes back and he fits into this, which why wouldn't he? And if Adebayo is regularly available, I expect them to be flirting with the top 10 offense with this new look. The defense is great. Will teams around the NBA start to copy this just like they copied elements of the Spurs or D 'Antoni systems? That's what the nerds are talking. Wow

30:59Bill Simmons:Didn't realize the nerds That was that much scuttlebutt for that Can I ask you I don't think Miami should do this trade So I'm going to preface that right now So don't aggregate this Because this is a no for Miami I'm just talking about it as a conception Because I think Sabonis is available On the Kings And I was just wondering Would it be more fun to watch Sabonis The way Miami is playing Than Bam Adebayo in this offense with what they're trying to do. It's just, my point is, I've always wanted to see Sabonis in an offense like this, where you're just going and he's just rebounding. And I always thought he was underrated as like a guy on the move.

31:40Bill Simmons:And he kind of gets pigeonholed with whoever the fuck is on the Kings every year where everybody stands around. There's ball stoppers everywhere, but he can dribble pass and shoot. I mean, I love Bam Adebayo, but I think, yeah, the passing and the movement that they're trying to do there in Miami, he would fit in well. Two, obviously. Yeah, but it's just like, I wish, it's too bad that's not a fair trade because it would be fun to see him on that team. But we'll see what they are once they get Harrow in there and Adebayo in there. I mean, they, I don't know. I know we all respect Eric Spolstra.

32:12You're afraid of the Miami Heat because they've scarred you for years. Well, they're Michael Myers.

32:18Bill Simmons:You think they're dead and then there's, all of a sudden there's another movie coming out. It's like, I thought he blew up in a fire. He's back? His mask burned. I'll compare him to Greg Popovich because he's played many different ways. Eric Spolstra. Now, he's been in the league so long. And one of the signs of a great coach, he doesn't get fired from the place he's been coaching. But he's sort of overseen these different motifs, like obviously starting with the Heatles, but then moving on with the Dragic era, the Heat culture, Butler era, and now this. He plays different ways, and I really respect that about him.

32:58And this is just one of the more innovative things we're seeing in the NBA this season.

33:03Bill Simmons:Here's what doesn't make a ton of sense, and I think is bad for them long-term. They just don't have the horses. They don't have a top 25 player. I had Bam at 27. They have Hero and Powell. They're getting a great Powell year. Great. Great comeback Hawkeyes year. Hero's coming back. But I think if you're actually going to think about, like, can they make the finals? I think it's really hard to make it if you don't have a top 25 guy. So you, I don't know. It would have to be one of the weirdest seasons in the history of the league. Can I give you, you mentioned that pace thing. Miami being first in pace, what were the odds on that in August?

33:43Bill Simmons:Like 100 to one? No, I mean, there was some talk about this, this Grizzlies consultant coming over and talking to Spoh about this newfangled offense, but you'd have to be really deep in discord. First? To predict that Miami Heat would be... No, nobody saw this coming. Clippers are 29th, which fits the eye test. The 30th team, do you know who's 30th? Is it your team? It's my team. I thought before the year, they were going to be running gun, gunning threes, going like kind of like just trying to cause chaos. They've done the opposite. And weirdly, it's kind of worked. Like they have a winning record.

34:22Bill Simmons:Now, granted, they've had a little bit of schedule luck. They played Orlando the other day, and Orlando is missing everybody. But their defensive rating is a little higher than I thought. I think they might be, what are they, fifth? Yeah, they're fifth in defensive rating. They're third in three points attempted. They're last in free throws attempted, and they're last in pace, and it matches what you watch game to game. I don't know what this team is. White hasn't had a good year at all. They have like three. Jalen's been excellent. And then Nimi has been like the most underrated guy in the league.

35:00Yeah.

35:00Bill Simmons:And he sprained his ankle. I'm a multiple text threads about, oh my God, we can't lose Kada. Like this is things Celtics fans are texting each other. So that's been weird. I have a couple offensive ratings things for you. So Houston is first. Yeah. Which is bonkers. their 30th and three points attempted. Yes. First in rebounds by a wide margin. And they basically just flipped everything we thought basketball was as we headed into the mid-2020s. Like spacing, shooting, switchability on defense. It's like Houston's like, nope. Here's this giant team where we're really good at shooting twos and we're going to crash the boards and we're going to have the number one offense this way.

35:44Bill Simmons:Can you make any sense of this? Yeah, I looked into it for the column last week And it's remarkable. We forgot about rebounding, I think, generally, as a fundamentally important part of the sport. And Steven Adams and Alperin Sagoon are here to remind us, dude. I think, if I'm not mistaken, Bill Simmons, this year's Houston Rockets team is on pace to set the record for offensive rebounding percentage by recovering over 40 % of their own missed shots. So, yeah, they're not shooting threes. but when they miss the defensive stop hasn't happened yet uh and a lot of those second chance points you know those second chances are among the most efficient options you can have as an offense and they just have more of them than anybody we've ever seen um credit to steven adams but also shangun and just one of the things when van fleet got hurt is oh yeah they put amen thompson in a point guard.

36:42And by the way, I got in trouble by saying he's not a point guard. He identifies as a point guard. He has his whole life. But the larger point is, stop it.

36:51Bill Simmons:He's not a point guard. He's a guard that dribbles the ball up and you can run stuff through him. He's not a point guard. Chris Paul is a point guard. I got corrected sitting next to some Rockets coach. But don't say that about him. Stop. They can settle down. But one of the things when Van Fleet went down is like, okay, now every dude in this lineup is a rebounder, right? And so Durant is one of the tallest threes when they're playing double bigs that you'll ever see in this league. And then you have people like Tauris and guys like Jabari, Amon Thompson, who are incredible rebounders. So it is one of the more fascinating pathways we've seen to the number one offense in a very long time.

37:35When Joe Mazzula had figured out the math, hey, what if we just shot more threes than everybody else. That was, it was kind of this sort of cliche way to get there. What I love about this Rockets team is they are reminding us that you can get there with just brute force inside and grabbing rebounds from your opponents.

37:53Bill Simmons:Well, were you and I doing the podcast where we talked about Reed Shepard and whether the van, we did that one, right? And I just think it's worked out as, it's a 10 out of 10 if you're a Rockets fan for like, all right, how am I feeling heading into Thanksgiving about Reed Shepard getting some of these Van Vliet minutes. He looks way more like Mark Price than Brent Price. So if you're doing the Price Brothers Seesaw, which I think is an important way to look at him, he looks like Mark Price's doppelganger. I thought Friday was one of the games of the year. It was NBA Cup, whatever. It was more like a, let's size each other up.

38:28Bill Simmons:Denver didn't have all their guys. Houston should have won the game, it felt like, and Denver just did what they usually do sometimes with Joker, where they're like, yeah. Of course, they lost the next night because it really was like a high-level playoff game. But I also thought it was a good game for Houston because I think it showed them, like, Shepard can play in these games now. We can get 20 to 25 out of him. All of our guys kind of make sense against this Denver team. And if you're going to beat Denver with bigger guys in length, and Jokic is going to get what he's going to get, Sengun was the one X factor.

39:04Bill Simmons:He wasn't good. Yeah. And was that, I'm playing my, you know, the guy I always get compared to and I just had a bad game or was there something more there? I don't know. But those three teams, and you alluded to this earlier, those are the three best teams in the NBA, right? We have Houston, we have Denver, and we have OKC. And they're OKC levitating over both of them. Well, that's my last trend, by the way. But, dude, I think anybody who says all these teams are playing the same, just watch those three teams. It couldn't be more different. It couldn't be more different. And, you know, you and I have to do this every time this year, it feels like.

39:40But this time of year is like, this is awesome. I love watching the Rockets play the Nuggets or the Nuggets play the Thunder. I just pray everybody's healthy. But I do want to shout out Eme Adoka, Ben Sullivan, that staff for finding efficient offense in a way that people haven't found it. And it's a little bit like what's going on in Miami. There are these cool stylistic trends that are finding success in the NBA.

40:05Bill Simmons:Yeah, there's some There's a couple good games tomorrow night And the most interesting one to me And this ties into Houston and a team I wanted to talk about quick I know you're going to talk about OKC in a second But Houston, Golden State Golden State, they've had some injuries They're not going to have their whole team Golden State's 21st offensive rating With the team they have If they're not going to be better offensively Like to me, Golden State, their record And they can point to a whole bunch of things but they're basically been a 500 team.

40:39Bill Simmons:Conceptually, I'm worried for, as you know, I love Curry. I'm really worried about this team because I don't think they're big enough. And I think they kind of know they're not big enough, but I think where the league has gone, even where it was 10 years ago, 2015, even that year they had Bogut. They had the ability to bring in somebody with some size. I just think when they're playing these like Steeman Adams and Shangoon together, or they're playing Portland, where Portland can give you cling in and then all of a sudden Rob Williams is back. They just can't match up with these teams. They can't rebound.

41:13Bill Simmons:They give up too many offensive rebounds and they don't get second chance points. So everything, it's like one of those, it's like one of those end of Brady's Patriots career Patriots teams where everything had to be absolutely perfect just to get a drive. And if one guy dropped the pass or a pass got tipped, you're just going, the punter's coming in. Golden State, like everything has to be perfect. Curry has to be awesome. Butler has to be incredible. And it's just not easy enough for them. And I really think they need to make a trade. And Horford needs to be available. I say them and the Clippers.

41:45Bill Simmons:Well, he's old. He's a 50 game a year guy who doesn't rebound anymore. He's not going to solve this. I call them and the Clippers the Danny Glover lethal weapon teams, dude. They're too old for this shit. Like, this is a league that's been dominated. And you've written about this better than anybody for a generation. this is a 20-something man's league for the most part. You can find exceptions to that. But look at OKC, man. Look at the best teams. And you're going to get pushed around. And it's just like, especially once you're on the wrong side of 34, 35, somebody else is in better shape than you.

42:23Somebody else is hungrier than you.

42:24Bill Simmons:There's more wear and tear. You're not recovering for the third game in four nights. There's a trade I think they can make. Can I float this at you? Yeah. It can't happen until mid-January. Obviously, Kaminga's involved. Yeah. Why does Gafford have to be on Dallas? Dallas has too many bigs. If you're the, what do they call it, the interim GM of the Dallas Mavericks, I guess is Michael Finley, you have to look at your front line and be like, we have too many guys up here. They have the second defensive rated. They're number two, and they're 30th in offense. And it adds up when you watch them because they don't have a point guard.

43:03Bill Simmons:They finally at least realized that Cooper flag kind of actually tried to grow his career instead of ruin it. Yeah. But what if it was Kaminga to Chicago, Kobe White to Dallas, and then Gafford and expiring to Golden State? Does anyone have to throw a pick into that trade? Because the moment White came back to Chicago, it kind of screwed them up. I'm not positive they need him. And I actually think they probably need another wing and more explosiveness. and Kobe White's going to be a free agent. Do you want to pay Kobe White if you're Chicago when you already just paid Giddey? There's some sort of ring around in Rosie trade with that.

43:41Bill Simmons:But I like the idea of Kobe White in Dallas who desperately needs somebody like him. And then Gafford to Golden State, if they could turn Kaminga into Gafford somehow. I'm not going to say they're going to make the finals, but I think that at least gives them a puncher's chance to win a couple rounds. Yeah, they've been at their best. Remember, Looney's not there anymore. He was there forever. They don't have that traditional five-man, with all due respect to Post. I like it. Kaminga, obviously, it's not clicking. It's as awkward as it's ever been. But they can't play him and Draymond and Butler together.

44:16Bill Simmons:It doesn't work if those are three of your guys. You're just not going to rebound well enough. And the Dallas point, like Dallas needs to start moving. They're going to be really active at this deadline, or are they going to have some disappointed fans? because they have too many pieces to move around. And they need to start looking at the future around Cooper and Lively, in my opinion. Well, Lively, who they just said is hurt even longer now. So I don't know if that affects your thinking at all. No, it doesn't. I think, we'll see. I think it's a foot thing, which is, as you know, is you got to be really careful with those.

44:49But assuming he's healthy, those are two pretty great building blocks for a rebuild. If you have Cooper flag and a relatively healthy Derek Lively, that's a pretty fast rebuild. I think a lot of teams in the league would kill to have that as your starting point. But everything else should be on the table. PJ, Kyrie, AD is obviously already being floated out there. But this is a team that needs to get young fast and get a return on some of these players that aren't in that aging, sort of that part of their aging curve as soon as possible.

45:26Bill Simmons:I'm not ready to throw away this season yet from Dallas. Because I think they have, I like a lot of their players. They missed on D 'Lo. I tried to warn everybody and then Kyrie got mad at me. Sorry. If they had somebody who could have the ball and create shots and actually care about other guys on the team and try to set them up and things like that, I think that only helps Flagg. The only thing I care about is how do we help Flagg? Well, step one, get him a guard who thinks about other players in the team and can create stuff. That's step one. Step two is how do you get rid of this weird log jam you have, especially with Davis coming back, where you have to play flag basically as a two or a three because you have too many big guys.

46:11Bill Simmons:Trade one of the big guys for a guard. This is a fucking layup. Build around Leva. You're not going to be able to trade Anthony Davis. He's not going anywhere. Nobody's trading for him. That trade doesn't exist. It's not going to happen until this summer. He's going to be on your team this year. So maybe you could try to make a run and try to get a playing team because some of these West teams are bad. And they're not that far out of it. They're 5-14, dude. 5-14, but the 10 seed is 6-12. That's true. And that's Memphis. And that's what the John Moran thing couldn't be going worse. But could they leapfrog Sacramento, Clippers, Utah, Memphis, Portland?

46:48Bill Simmons:I think they could be a 9 seed. I would try to be thinking now how to make the team better. That's interesting. And they have Davis. Davis is, I don't know what version of him we're getting when he comes back, but Davis, when he's healthy, is the top 20 player in the league. That's right. When he's healthy. So I don't know. I wouldn't punt on the season if I was Dallas. It's compelling. I think they got to start the rebuild. But what they don't have - The thing is they couldn't do that Kaminga trade for another month, or a month and a half, because you can't do it until January 15th. So maybe it'll be too late by then.

47:20Well, and the other thing to watch with Dallas is they do have a wounded front office, to put it mildly. Are they going to let Michael Finley or an interim GM come in and make it?

47:30Bill Simmons:I mean, intellectually wounded or just wounded? Just wounded. I mean, they lost their leader. Their leader. Jason Kidd didn't know about the trade. I do. Hey. He had no idea. Blindsided. Nobody knew. Dumont didn't know. It was Nico, solo shooter. He was JFK on the sixth floor, just acting alone. CIA not involved. Ridiculous. But do they want to bring in another executive to manage this rebuild around Cooper Flagg. I'm right here. I'll move to Dallas. I'm throwing my hat in the ring. It's time. Yeah. Ready to do it. I'll leave the ringer. Don't leave the ringer. I'll turn it over to Gajau and Eduardo.

48:10Bill Simmons:There you go. Now, the Mavericks, that's a great job. Their fans, I will say the fans, I get it. The most traumatizing sports trade ever, but the fans have to move forward now. Flag's really good. He's not even 19 yet. He's finishing games. They're running plays for him in crunch time. He's an awesome additive player. There's good pieces here. I don't think they're out of the playoff race. I think Nico's gone. They did that. I'd be a little worried about the Jason Kidd. I'm not positive he's whether he wants to coach or whether he wants to coach this team. I have no idea. But Davis is going to be in the team.

48:47Bill Simmons:There's no Davis trade. You're not getting four first-round picks for him. It's not happening. I don't think. Who's the team? I don't know. I'm not trading for him. I'm Detroit. I'm changing my identity if I get him. I don't want to do that. I won 13 straight games. I was watching Phoenix without Mark Williams the other day, and that was one that crossed my mind. Oh. It was because of the Kentucky connection with Devin Booker. How many picks? I haven't done the research on the salaries and that, But I was just like, oh, yeah, Phoenix might be a good place for him to land. But I don't know. If I was in a front office, my job would be to bring to the general manager all the risk associated with the move.

49:30And Anthony Davis is nothing if not human risk. And signing up for two years of Anthony Davis at a big number is just a lot of risk for one of these teams. If you were the Knicks and Davis for Towns

49:45Bill Simmons:as the focal point of something was on the table, who hangs up faster? I think the Mavs are staying on the phone because they want to hear what... They're looking to move on with their lives. Also, Towns is kind of a better fit for this team to have with these multiple centers than at least he could be on the outside stretching the floor versus... And he's younger. I mean, he's a younger player. Can you do your OKC thing quick before? I'm going to bring House in with us. Well, this involves Joe House's team, too. I wanted to ask the sports guy this question. Are we more likely to see a historically great NBA record this season or a historically bad NBA record this season?

50:28Bill Simmons:I've been on this regular season win record for the last month. And the odds have been dropping. I think, what was it, plus 700 or something on FanDuel for them to do it? Oh, House is here. House, are you recording? I am, of course. Remember your friend Kurt Goldsberry? One of my favorites. The OGKG, baby. Let's go. The little tickets. OKC is plus 880 to break the wins record on FanDuel. 74 plus wins, plus 880. Is that more realistic to you than the Wizards breaking the loss record? If you had to pick one, Wizards most losses ever, or Thunder most wins ever, what would you pick? The Thunder. I mean, the Wizards could win basketball games.

51:14They could. There are NBA-level players, not many of them, but, you know, they're playing these rotation shenanigans and so forth. There's a couple wins in there.

51:25Bill Simmons:How's it going to get better? You're going to be buying out veterans. Play the NBA players at the end of the games. I do regret and resent them not trying to win a few of these games at the end of the fourth quarter where they're competitive. There's a few that I haven't been a fan of. Would it bother you if they were the worst team of all time? Or would that just be like, all right, we got a great draft? House has no... What's the difference? His body is full of Wizards bullet scars at this point. It's just another scar for his leg. Can you do some of your OKC stuff, Kirk? Well, I mean, if you just look at the game the way I do, there's a compelling case for the Thunder to beat this record.

52:07They're setting the net rating record once again. The Bulls.

52:11Bill Simmons:After 18 games, it's the highest, right? Well, so there's a case against it, but the case for it is, yeah, the net rating is over 16. The 95, 96 Bulls have the record at plus 13. Wow. Remember that when the Warriors won 73, they didn't even lead the NBA in net rating. That was our Spurs in San Antonio that year. Thanks, Zaza. Did you hang a banner for that or no? No, Zaza made sure of that. We also had another counterpoint, though. For those who don't want to see this record fall, the Thunder have had the easiest schedule in the league so far. How about counter to the counter? No Jalen Williams the entire year.

52:50There's the counter to the counter, so that's where it goes. So I think the over-under is 68.5 right now on Fandle, which is absurd. I would take the over, and the only question there to me is how far over can they get?

53:04Bill Simmons:How? So OKC's reached a point. when they lose, I'm shocked. Right. And I know this because they've only lost once. Yeah. It was shocking. If they lose their next couple games, home for Minnesota, home Phoenix, at Portland to finish the month, those would be three shockers for me if they lost any of those games. Then you go into December, they're at Golden State, home Dallas, at Utah, home Clippers. They could be 24-1, heading into at Minnesota on Friday, December 19th. That's some rarefied territory. Like the Warriors, what did they start out? 25-0? We've had some teams start out like 24-1, 27-1.

53:48I want to see how much of it, as we mapped this out before. So the implied probability at plus 880 is a little better than 10%. That feels like a good, you know, worth a dabble. But how many times are they doing three games and four nights? What's the back-to-back situation look like? You would want to map some of that stuff out. I'm not worried about strength of schedule because I'm still mad at the Cavaliers last night sitting, virtually everybody against Toronto, basically conceding the tiebreaker against Toronto as though Cleveland's going to finish so much better than Toronto this upcoming season that they can go ahead and concede the tie.

54:29They've lost three times to the Raptors, and they have a game last night. Everybody sits. Come on. The other thing about... The last thing I say on the Thunder is like, they're going to encounter so many games, and this is very 2025 NBA, and I don't like it, where the other team isn't trying to win. To your point, I think when you talk about the 96 Bulls or the 16 Warriors, is it fair to say that this potential record could fall in part because there's more teams not trying their best on a nightly basis in the NBA?

55:03Bill Simmons:So are you saying against OKC specifically or just in general? Just in general. Teams are tanking at a higher level. More teams are tanking this year with a deep draft. So if they do get to 74, is there an asterisk in part because there's so many of these Wizards Utah? Go look at the 96 polls. That league sucked that year. Fair enough. That was one of the reasons that happened. It was like we had like the, yeah, we had expansion teams in two clusters right before they did that. And I don't know that, that the 73 and nine, I actually think there's probably some more impressive records. The crazy thing with Jordan was never losing three games in a row for the last six bowl seasons.

55:50Bill Simmons:That's one of my favorite stats ever. Can I throw you Toronto, sixth offensive rating, second in assists per game, and 27th in three-pointers attempted? Some of it's schedule-related, right? Zach and I talked about that last week. Schedules lined up really nicely for them. But ITES-wise, I don't mind watching them. I actually think it's a team that makes sense together. But do you think that rating, does that seem too high to you? What do you think? Yeah, I think there's some shooting luck on both ends of the court. I don't want to rain on the Canadian parade, but if you look at the three-point shooting percentage on defense, it's a little lower than you would expect.

56:28And on offense, it might be higher. I think Scottie Barnes is shooting 40%. I love Scottie, but that's not where he's going to land this year. But they're bringing the ball to the hoop. They're attacking. They're really physical. And I do love Scottie Barnes because he's not Giannis, but with a head of steam and he gets going, that's a really great. Yeah. And then last night.

56:49Bill Simmons:I finally bought in after five years. I'm finally in on Scottie. Yeah, I mean, it took some time. Why are you shrugging, House? Because he sucked last year. I mean, it's perfectly fine. He's playing much better. He's playing, yes. I mean, his shooting percentages across the board last year, which was emblematic of what that team was, you know, sort of designed for and what their goals were. They had injuries throughout the season and they decided to do the quiet tank with about 30 games left. They pulled everybody off the court. So you didn't get any, they paid Scotty Barnes all this money and then he, you know, he didn't show up.

57:24But this, I like this version of Toronto quite a bit. By the way, that's a great name for a blog in the 2000s, the quiet tank.

57:34Bill Simmons:We're going to see some quiet tankers pretty soon. I think the quiet tanks, I keep waiting for it with my team to see. My team just keeps winning every time I think the tank's about to happen. House has been quiet betting Toronto over and over again. That's been one of your teams, right? Toronto and Phoenix have been your two teams. Well, and Toronto was a lock for me, the over. I mean, I think I got them at 39 and a half before the season started. I love them. Screw you. The best stat of all time this year, OKC being first in defensive rating by 7.9 points. I've never seen anything like that.

58:11Bill Simmons:Dallas is second, Detroit's third, Houston's fifth. the net rating stuff anyone over 20 minutes a game all the leaders are from OKC in Denver and then Suggs pops in there plus 17.2 Dylan Harper 16.8 Steven Adams 16.8 Ananobi 16.5 and then my guy Kata 16.4 how stick around Kirk can you stick around for one more quick segment or you have to go? Hell yeah. All right, we're gonna take one more break. I wanna talk point cards with you guys. This Thanksgiving, FanDuel's letting you pass the leg to your friends and family with a fun new way to bet. So let's break it down. Open Pass the Leg in the FanDuel Sportsbook app and begin by creating a unique link for your group.

58:58Bill Simmons:Add your legs. Invite and share with friends. Once friends are finished adding their legs, add the group parlay to your bet slip. Finally, use your Pass the Leg PBT. last but not least to boost your winnings and place your bet. Sal House and Dabundo, they're creating their own group pass the leg bet on Cowboys versus Chiefs. I would love to get in on that one before Sal and House eat all the turkey and forget to pass the leg. So go check out that parlay. Throw it in to whatever you want to do for your bets for Thanksgiving and for Black Friday and everything else. And on Wednesday, The Ringer will be sharing our final root bet.

59:42Bill Simmons:Stay tuned to social for that. All right, two topics. Didn't prep you for either of them. You know, it's 25 years of the 21st century. Just thinking back a little bit to everything we've seen. And I was thinking about John Morant, who I've just been so disappointed by for so many different reasons, as most basketball fans have been the last couple of years. Even the Klay Thompson thing, like Klay Thompson's NBA royalty, like settle down, don't talk shit to Klay Thompson. Anyway, I was wondering, has he thrown his hat in the ring for one of the most disappointing stars of the past 25 years? And what are the qualifications for that list house?

1:00:22Bill Simmons:Because I don't think injuries are fair. it's like oh I'm so disappointed in Jay Williams well he got in a motorcycle accident he hurt his leg like that doesn't count Greg Oden I can't be disappointed by but I made a list of the guys I was the most disappointed by and I'm not even going to read all the lists especially because probably all of them have a player podcast at this point but I think my number one most disappointing guy the last 25 years is Ben Simmons oh yeah sure because that makes a lot of sense I think he was there for like a year and a half when it was like, I see the vision of what Ben Simmons, I think he can be the one of the 10 best guys in the league.

1:00:59Bill Simmons:Like it's, it's right there. You kind of look like LeBron sometimes when you have a head of steam downhill and defensively, you might be one of the three best guys in the league and you are a foundation block of a team that could maybe win a title. And then it just, that Atlanta series, it went sideways and I'm disappointed by it. So is that, Would that be a good candidate for you guys? Ja, is Ja starting to nudge toward the top here, Kirk? Yeah, he definitely is. In part because I loved watching him play basketball at such a high level. Me too. And he was so young and so ascendant and so confident and cocky.

1:01:37And like those series against the Warriors were just thrilling to watch. And, you know, I hear Chris Vernon in my head with just, he had the city too. He had this whole identity of Memphis and all this, and it was like, oh, this is perfect. The alignment of the player and the city and the highlights were incredible too. It wasn't like boring greatness. But yeah, it's been, I think I'd put him ahead of Ben Simmons, but that might be recency bias, just because I loved watching John Morant play. How's? I mean, Ben Simmons, to me, has to be number one because wasn't he, was he first team or second team?

1:02:14His second team all-NBA, I think. All-NBA and first-team All-NBA defense, right?

1:02:18Bill Simmons:Yeah. So Ja hasn't, has he sniffed that? What's Ja at the peak? Ja might have been third-team, but Ja was, you know, they had, I guess the highlight for him was that Golden State series when they went toe-to-toe with those guys. They showed clips of that the other day when they were talking about his history with Golden State. And even in that series, he just looks more explosive than anything we've seen this year. He's got to be in there. Yeah. So we're not counting first-round busts. Uh, so Markel, I'll give you a couple others. Disappointment. Uh, go ahead. Okay. Markel faults is a tough one because he's disappointing, but I also think like, you know, he, in retrospect, I wonder how much some of that was his fault.

1:03:00Bill Simmons:It seemed like he had some physical stuff with the shoulder. Like Zion to me is on the list, but I think it's still play out of it just cause I don't think he's taken the, the body piece of it, physical, the, the staying in shape, taking care of himself. I just don't think he's done it. And I think that's the biggest reason he's had so many issues. I don't think it's debatable, right? And he's one of those guys you watch from afar and you're like, why can't this guy figure it out? So I think that has to qualify. I had Darko. I don't know how much of that was his fault, but Darko was really talented.

1:03:36Bill Simmons:And I don't really know why it didn't happen. This isn't like a Kwame Brown thing where Kwame Brown got drafted out of high school. ended up staying in the league for a while, right? And it wasn't his fault he went first and that somebody thought he was better as an 18-year-old than Pau Gasol, which is just the wrong opinion. Somebody was Michael Jordan. Somebody was the greatest player of all time. Darko was good. He just was a fucking mess. But that one still bugs me. Bad situation, bad timing. He was a guy who could shoot threes and he was athletic. Kirk's smiling. Oh, I love that. Was he too early for his time?

1:04:11God, such a great point.

1:04:13Bill Simmons:You know, I don't know. If he goes to a different team, he's not on this. He's not the mascot of a 2004 Pistons title team. And he's just on Charlotte for a couple years. Does it turn out okay for him? I don't know. Couldn't he have been Christoph Porzingis 1.0? Couldn't he have been? I mean, you can do the Instagram thing with him where it's like, Darko Milchik was a problem. And you could cut like two minutes of highlights from him and be like, Like, ah, I kind of see it. He's a lefty. You know, he had that little lefty hook. I liked him. For this exercise, let me interrupt you for just one second.

1:04:50If you put Ben Simmons number one, where's Joel Embiid? Yeah.

1:04:56Bill Simmons:I thought about him. He didn't make my list because I think physically it's just been one thing after another the entire time. How much does he get blamed for that? I don't know. But he had issues coming into the league. He had knee injuries coming out of the gate. Whether he could have done stuff on his own, I don't know. But he also won an MVP. He had some really good years. To me, he's more in that Chris Webber area where it's like, oh, there's a version of this where this is a way better career. Never played in the Eastern Conference Final. He never did. Serious. Can I nominate somebody for your list?

1:05:29Please. Lakers Center went out. Andrew Bynum? Yes.

1:05:36Bill Simmons:He was on my list. so he was on my I'm not sure list because he had some knee stuff he did and some brain stuff well yeah he definitely I don't know if he made a lot of friends during the course of his career but it seemed like his body broke down but House I didn't know if it was because he was carrying too much weight he's one of those centers where it's like but yeah 08, 09, 10 that guy was you were scared of him when they posted him up I had this is a tough one for House I think he belongs on the list Now I know he had some personal problems, but half of the guys in this list probably did.

1:06:10Bill Simmons:But Steve Francis, who was 26 and six and was the focal point of a Tracy McGrady trade. And his career was basically over before he hit 30. But just from the get-go, when he didn't want to go to Vancouver and it just was never... There was a better player in there somewhere and we never got the career. All right, my next one. I'm still mad at Derek Williams, who I think was the second pick. I think I was really high on him in the draft diaries. And I don't understand. He was great in college. He was the perfect stretch for who was, he could be a rim runner, but also hit threes. And he's moving into this 2010s era.

1:06:50Bill Simmons:And I still don't know what happened. Really makes me madhouse. We thought we were all in on that dude coming out of college. But remember the Arizona stuff? It was like, how is this guy not going to be an awesome pro? I'm also mad at Jimmer Fredette. I don't know why he couldn't put it together. we're moving into the three point shooting era the guy had 30 foot range he couldn't have been like the 10th man he couldn't have been Peyton Pritchard House he could have been he had plenty of chances I gotta give House some red meat I'm thinking this through we don't have like you didn't define the parameters so like is Marvin Williams a disappointment no because I was ready to be disappointed by them I'll give you some red meat All right.

1:07:34Bill Simmons:Anthony Davis. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Let's get frisky. NBA top 75 player. Man, a ring. Got a ring. That's one. That's one. Should have been Tim Duncan. I'm not disappointed by Anthony Davis. All right. I put him honorable mention. I just want to talk it out. Baron Davis.

1:08:00KG, what do you think? I think he has a couple of historic moments. I don't know how high I was of him coming out of UCLA. I think he had a decent NBA career, but I can see why people who watched him play either early in the NBA thought that he was destined for more than he actually got.

1:08:20Bill Simmons:He's on the list for me because I was going to those Clipper games. I thought he was so talented. And then the other, I remember Nash talking once about how Baron Davis was the hardest guy for him to play in the entire league. And he had that whole run. And he had a good career. He got a couple big contracts. There was a big game element to him that we saw in the 07 Warriors Mavs series where it was like the bigger the stage, the better he got. And I never thought he was in the right shape for most of his career. He had some neat stuff, but I thought he should have been awesome. I put OJ Mayo on there.

1:08:52Bill Simmons:And then Vince Carter, obviously, has to be on this list. Even though Vince Carter is going to go to the Hall of Fame. Deserves it. average 25, 26, 27 a game some year, but it's just never from the heights of that early Toronto stuff, when you go all the way through to the end of Toronto, to the Nets, then he shows up on Phoenix and he's in Dallas. And it just felt like somebody that should have been the best guy on really good teams for like seven, eight years. And it never happened to us. One of our most frustrating players that we would talk about. Yeah, he never found the situation that was going to give him a chance at a ring?

1:09:32I mean, what was the best team that he played on?

1:09:35Bill Simmons:I wouldn't have been in Orlando in 2010. I never understood that. He's playing with an all-NBA center. The league wasn't in the greatest shape, right? LeBron's Cleveland thing's about to crater. The Celtics were up and down that year, and it just felt like somewhere along the stretch it should have happened. If that's your logic, is Tracy McGrady a candidate for your list? Thought about him. like if teammates where the supporting cast were so awful. I'm actually in the camp of, I would actually defend Tracy versus put him on a list like this. I thought he just played with nobody for years and years and years.

1:10:11Yeah. I love this game. One of the nerd candidates I'll throw at you is Larry Sanders. Oh, that's a great one. When we were putting, we were starting to do some of the first player tracking studies in the NBA. This guy like started to pop on all these rim protection metrics that we'd never had access to before. And I wrote his paper for Sloan. I was like, this guy's going to be the best rim protector in the league for the next five or 10 years. And he was out of the league, uh, by 26 or something. And, um, but he was, I, I was like this guy, I'm going to put my flag in here and this guy's going to be, you know, the face of, of the defensive analytics revolution.

1:10:52and he never showed up.

1:10:55Bill Simmons:I'm still personally disappointed in Keith Van Horn, but technically he also belonged to the 90s. But I just, I don't know why he wasn't 20 and eight for like 12 years. House is done with this segment. Can I give you my top 10 point guards really quick? Go ahead. Talked about this with Zach. We talked about it through the context of the point guard, Chris Paul, retiring. And I mentioned my top five, which is Magic, and Curry and Oscar Robertson and Bob Kuz and Isaiah Thomas as my top five. House, do you have notes? No, no, that's it. That's the list for me as well. Goldsberry, you have notes. I can't go against the sports guy on Kuzi, but that's the one I heard you and Zach talking about it, the generational stuff.

1:11:41Everybody's going to read that differently. I'll take it. I'll take it as listed.

1:11:45Bill Simmons:next five at Chris Paul John Stockton just a hair behind him Steve Nash Jason Kidd just a hair behind him and then and then Walt Frazier if he counts as a point guard which I think he does and I think that's the top 10 we mentioned at Gary Payton a level after that then it moves into Gary Payton's probably the toughest cut. Iverson was not a point guard, so he can't be included. But, House, how do you feel about that second five? No issue. I mean, you know, we're doing the all-time greats, and we have a good, like, a pretty unimpeachable top ten. Frazier's the one that got lost to history a little bit.

1:12:35Bill Simmons:He has the Game 7 and 69 as one of the great individual games in the history of the league and wins them a title. He wins two titles. He is probably the best defensive guard of his entire generation. Was a famous, famous big game guy and had good stats. And his career went about as long as it should have gone in that era where they're flying coach and they're playing on converses. So, yeah, Gary Payton is the toughest one for me because I think Payton's peak was probably better than Stockton. There was at least one playoff series where he just murdered John Stockton. Right. and it was a really bad matchup and the whole thing.

1:13:15Bill Simmons:But is there anybody, who do you think is the most underrated point guard of all time for you? Tony Parker. The guy who won four NBA championships, the finals MVP, led the league in paint scoring as a 6 '2 point guard. And, you know, you could say he's a system player or what, but man, he was the best player on that team for a lot of big games. And, you know, I'm biased to the silver and black, but Tony's getting lost for the same reason Tim gets lost. He doesn't talk about himself. He doesn't make a lot of appearances. He's not on TV. Not on TV. Going on TV always helps. But that's the name where I wouldn't be doing a service to my friends in San Antonio if I didn't bring him up.

1:13:59Bill Simmons:So the guy we didn't mention was SGA. I don't think SGA is a point guard, but I also don't know what a point guard is anymore because technically he fulfills the position of point guard, but he's not a point guard. He's not like these guys, House and I grew up with, like Mo Cheeks and Tiny Archibald. He's just a different type of player. It's almost like this new version of a guard, right? So he's like on this different list with like Harden and Russell Westbrook and people like that. Yeah, Luka. These high usage rate guards that they fit the role. And the bigger question for me is, is Curry on that list?

1:14:36Bill Simmons:And Zach and I talked about that. yesterday, but House, do you think Curry's an actual point guard? In your head, what is he? Is he a guard or is he a point guard? He's more of a guard than a point guard, but it's impossible to try and split, you know, to do definitionally what we're trying to accomplish. So just putting him in the top five, we're saying, okay, he's with Magic and he's with, you know, that's the right place for him. What do you think, Kirk? I have him as a point guard. I think if you look at it, it's like this too. Parker wasn't like a total point guard, but he was. And to, to, to piggyback on your point, like we have to, we have to move the goalposts because the style of the game is changing.

1:15:17And you know, when Mark Jackson was the coach in golden state, they ran a lot of traditional pick and roll and he sure as hell looked like a point guard back then. And then Steve got there and now they're running through Bogut and Draymond and David Lee and his dribble handoffs and he's running circles and that really defined as career. Um, but I think of them as a point guard, but the, the same thing I would say to, to Shay is just like, this is, if we want to continue to compare point guards, we have to say that the, the definition is, is growing to include these type of guys. Cause you know, who's not walking through that door is Mo Cheeks.

1:15:50Mo Cheeks isn't walking through that door ever again, but we're never going to see like the six, one guy dribbles it up, initiates an action, dumps it down to Moses Malone. And there we go.

1:16:01Bill Simmons:House and I love those guys. I love those guys. We had a couple guys at Holy Cross. Well, we had playing pickup. You always wanted the Mo Cheeks type guys. Oh, for sure. Those guys just were looking out for everybody else. Just wanted to let everybody else eat. What can I do, guys? Can I make you a plate? Can I cut your chicken for you? Here. I wonder as this argument evolves down the road, if we throw away point guard, shooting guard, all this shit, and we just go guards, wings, and bigs, and that's where we end up. Because Jokic is a center, but he's also a guy. I don't even know what the fuck he is anymore.

1:16:40Bill Simmons:I guess he's just a big. He's a big. But just the five positions that we grew up with are basically gone. Right? And I... It's okay. The game's different. It's fine. Luka's a guard? Harden's a guard I just think that probably needs a way to think about it but is it how high can I put SGA in the pyramid at this point what's the number that you'd be happy with because he's clearly on it now is he level 2 for you yet yeah yes yes yes so that puts him like the McAdoo Archibald, Joel Embiid, Bernard King, Heinsohn, Arizon, Wilkins, Dwight Howard, Russell Westbrook, Anthony Davis area? As you say to all those names, I grow more and more confident that it's absolutely appropriate to say he's there.

1:17:37Bill Simmons:Does he nudge toward the low 50s Gary Payton, Paul Pierce area around there, or does he in a couple more years? Because almost when you're doing this, it's like his career ends tomorrow. Does he have enough to... So you need two more years. Okay. Well, let's just let the season play out. If they defend the title, if they win 70 games and they defend the title. Now he's in the 40s. Yeah. If they win two straight titles, he wins the MVP last year, maybe even this year. Now you're in the different tax bracket for this, I think. All right, Kirk, anything else? Any other questions for us before you go?

1:18:15I would just like to wish you and your family and your listeners and the house family a happy Thanksgiving. Enjoy the football, some basketball in between football. And thanks for having me on, Bill. Kirk, what's your favorite side? I'm a mashed potatoes guy. A lot of garlic, a lot of gravy. And yeah, I don't get a lot of mashed potatoes. So once a year, I really go into it.

1:18:38Bill Simmons:House, you're going to have to be careful this year because the football games are really good. I don't know what you're doing for an eating strategy, but you almost have to like kind of wait for that little stretch between the second and third game. The first two are amazing. I'm going to eat all day. I'm just going to eat all day. There's no real, like, you know, it'll be a plate an hour. All right. Over 12 hours. We're saying bye to Goldsberry's house, staying on, and we're going to do some football. Later, guys. Thanks, Kirk. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. Family vacations are the absolute best.

1:19:09Bill Simmons:I think my favorite place that I've been to a bunch of times with my family is Hawaii, a place that we could not go to when I lived on the East Coast because it was too far away and we went to the West Coast. and now it's like just close enough. Really fun. Sun's out every day. Nice hot sun. Just happy. Get to eat fish. But listen, when you're booking a family vacation and you're quartering everyone's calendars and agreeing on where to go and snagging deals before it's too late. Yeah, there's some part about traveling that's not great, which is why Expedia's bundle and save feature is a total game changer.

1:19:42Bill Simmons:It combines flights, hotels, and cars into one package for impressive discounts. And there's no pressure to decide everything at once, Because as a member, you can book one part of your trip first and add more right up until your last day of travel. Planning your vacation just got a whole lot more relaxing. Book now with Expedia. This episode is brought to you by Fox One, where you can watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just$19.99 a month. With three days free. Build your own multi-view. Follow player spotlights. Customize your audio. Stay on top of the action with live stats, highlights, and instant replays.

1:20:18Bill Simmons:Don't miss a moment. Watch the FIFA World Cup live on Fox 1. Offers are subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. All right, House, we're doing Ringer 107 picks on a Tuesday afternoon Thanksgiving. This is way too early. So much can change. But what are we going to do? We got to do it. We're going to try to concentrate on the Thursday and Black Friday games just because they're closer and we actually know who's playing and then maybe do some other stuff. We had another disappointing week last week. Two and three. We're two games under 500. I just can't get it going this year, House.

1:20:59Bill Simmons:And I don't know what it is. We're not making excuses, but you and I spoke and I told you that by the time Sunday morning arrived, I was in a different place on at least two of our picks. And we had a difference of opinion. The Saints was a classic. We liked the Saints on Thursday. That's right. By Sunday, it was clear it was an all-time stay-away pick. Everybody had them. They're minus one and a half with a pretty crappy 2-and-8 team with everybody mobilizing behind them, and the game played out the way it played out. So we're going to concentrate on some of the games that are a little closer.

1:21:32Bill Simmons:Okay, staying away from Rams. Stop me if you don't want to stay away from any of these. Rams, Panthers, Bucs, Cardinals. Don't even know who's starting QB for the Bucs. Titans, Jags, Falcons, Jets. I'm never putting the Falcons in Ringer 107 again. I hope they burn in hell. Chargers, Raiders, and Broncos, Washington. Is that a possible parlay for you or is it a stay away? Who's playing QB for you? Almost certainly Marcus Mariota. Well, yesterday they were characterizing it as extremely unlikely for Jaden. I just want to go on the record. I think if he plays any more football this season, I think it's an outrage.

1:22:17I think it's a goddamn debacle. There is no, I think it's a misunderstanding fundamentally of what an asset he is and what the risk paradigm. The man's been hurt three different times with three different body parts this season and a different body part with a different injury last season. There is no rationale other than what butts in seats at the stupid stadium out in Prince George's County. He's not he doesn't need reps. He's not getting useful reps with this poverty team, with everybody hurt. No Terry McLaurin, no Noah Brown. Eckler's been hurt, you know, since the beginning of the season.

1:23:01It just doesn't make any sense to me. So I soundly and loudly reject the idea that additional reps are helpful to him. I hope not to see him until the beginning of the 2026 season.

1:23:14Bill Simmons:Should I just cut and paste that same monologue when the Celtics start thinking about bringing Jason Tatum back in March when they're 38 and 39? Viking Seahawks, can we stay away? So it's probably Brosmer. That line's double digits now. Ten and a half. It's probably Brosmer, right? yeah I don't what if he's like okay I don't know I don't I'm in the same boat as you I was really really really I already bet it I bet Seattle minus nine and a half before the news about this I'm gonna be really I'm not gonna make any jokes about the concussion thing because he did get a joke that he might not have well it was you know he had the symptoms on the flight on the flight home yeah so and he took some hits in the kid he took hits Let there be no doubt.

1:24:05Bill Simmons:Dolphins, Saints, Dolphins, five and a half. Cannot, cannot, cannot. Staying away completely. Cannot, yeah. Do you like, Coward was saying he thought, he thought Purdy was the right-handed Tua. It's really, first Coward take I've been jealous of in a while. It's very good. Coward, keep it on my toes. I haven't been jealous of a Coward take in four years. The only difference is so far, Purdy doesn't really put himself in harm's way running-wise. Coward was bragging on his show that he had better seats than me at a WrestleMania. It's possible. Why couldn't he? There was one where I was with six people, and I was in the third row, and he was in the first.

1:24:45Bill Simmons:He called the wrestling fans booger eaters for years and years. Go look it up. So what? How dare he? That doesn't mean he can't sit in the front row. Yeah, but that was once. I've been ahead of him in the... I'm always ahead of him in rows. You should be on the front row at every event. I don't understand. What are you doing? No, for Coward, he can screw off. Go sit with the booger eaters in the third row. See, I'm hoping this turns into a sports blog post because they can just put us both in the post with the thing. But meanwhile, I like Coward. But don't tell anybody. Just get your post. Get your aggregation out.

1:25:24Bill Simmons:Likelies.

1:25:29Bill Simmons:these are not Thursday Friday games Browns plus six and a half at home against the Niners we have to play it home Browns is one of our favorite bets they're just a different team home Browns the hash Browns Shadour wasn't incredible but he was fine them at home maybe less than fine but he wasn't bad he wasn't bad the San Francisco defense what they were what they put on display against Carolina it was that San Francisco handling their business against the Panthers was a thousand percent about how inept the Panthers are that was the Panthers insisted on defeating themselves again and again and again I did a seven point tease with five teams including the Panthers up to plus 14 and sweated out and they won oh right right And Bryce Young was just, what goes on in that dude's head?

1:26:29Bill Simmons:Would you rather have J.J. McCarthy as your quarterback and know that it's not happening? Or Bryce Young tantalizing with the possibility that it might happen, but then over and over again proving that it's not going to happen? I don't know which one's worse. Definitely J.J. McCarthy. He can't play. That's worse, okay. He's worse. So Browns, they're six and a half. This is like three free points. Play it. How is this line at three and a half? I don't know. Play them. We love the Browns. Browns at home. Myles Garrett might get four sacks. Another possible is Texans Colts. Texans are getting four and a half in Indianapolis.

1:27:11Bill Simmons:This is a bet on the Texans defense. I don't know if it's Mills or Stroud. I don't really care. Not sure how good the Colts are. as the season goes along. The fact that Sal and I talked about it on Sunday, they seem really scared to let Daniel Jones decide the game. Here's the thing that scares me a little bit about the Houston situation. The Colts have been away from home for a month. And all of these games where they haven't looked great have been outdoor. That game against Pittsburgh, that's an outdoor, you know, not going to let them get out and run thing. Then they went to Berlin, outdoor stadium.

1:28:01They put up a bunch of yards. Last week in Kansas City. Two consecutive overtime games also for the Colts now. But finally, they're home. They're finally home. They're back to their home track. And that secondary, the health, they were good. That secondary against the Chiefs was very good. That was not the reason. You're saying all stuff I had in my head that should I be more scared of them at home with Houston who can't really block, with the secondary taking a rise up,

1:28:35Bill Simmons:and most people probably liking the Texans because of the line and because of the way they've been playing. Counter Texans, 10 days rest. Must win for them. Literally a must win. I don't know if they make the playoffs if they don't win this game. Well, I'll mark it down. I mean, to be fair, the Colts did have a bye in between. It wasn't like they flew from internationally back to the U.S. and immediately played the Chiefs. I'll mark it down because I thought that was a really bad loss for the Colts. Like Sal and I were talking about just to go three and out the last four times you had the ball.

1:29:15Bill Simmons:and it just didn't seem like they trusted Jones. And I think sometimes with your teams and like, those are the moments where it's like, do you trust this guy or not? It didn't seem like they trusted him. It's fine to not trust him. You got to get JT the ball. Like we watched the, we saw the recipe with the dumb, dumb lions. The lions at least understand that Jameer Gibbs is their secret sauce. And they're like, we're probably going to lose this game to the Giants, but we're going to get you 300 yards from 300 scrimmage yards. Because if we're going to lose, it's going to go down this way. It has to be the exact same with Jonathan Taylor.

1:29:56Go ahead and be cautious, but get that man touches every which way you can.

1:30:03Bill Simmons:So maybe staying away from that one. I just don't love it. Giants-Pats. Giants are getting 7.5 in New England. It's a Monday night game. we went against the Patriots because I try to be like I'm not trying to be a homer we wanted the five best picks we went against the Pats once and we lost it was a tough situation they went to Tampa and they handled their business it was impressive that was the one we went against them seven and a half is that the number? it's too many points is Jameis playing? is Jameis definitely playing? I think Jameis is playing if Jameis plays then it's too many points You know who's not playing?

1:30:42Bill Simmons:The entire left side of the Patriots offensive line. You know what wasn't good? Even two weeks ago, the Patriots offensive line. You know what was the best part of their offensive line? The two guys on the left side, the rookies, who we're not going to have. The way to get at the Giants, again, you know, we just saw it with the Lions. You got to establish the run. You have to get outside and run on them. Can the Patriots do that? Have we seen that at all this season? There's two issues with this line being this high. One is that I'm worried they're not going to be able to block the Giants at all.

1:31:13Bill Simmons:Two, even if they have the lead, they're not going to be able to run the ball to keep the lead, which is what we saw in the Bengals game. They should have put that Bengals game away. They could have run the ball. So this line's just too high. The counter would be you have Jameis. God only knows with that dude. You're betting on him on a Monday night. There could be two pick sixes. It could be four and four. four touchdowns, four picks, two of which are pick sixes. That's what makes them so beautiful. The Pats have, look, the schedule has been amazing. They barely beat Cincinnati. Thursday night against the Jets, which they won by 13.

1:31:54Bill Simmons:That game was closer than it felt like. And the Jets left some plays on the table. And really, if they were competent at all offensively, that would have been closer. Tampa, 28-23 final. but Tampa played really well that game and I just thought that was a good game. Atlanta, they win by one. The last time they've really beaten up a team was Cleveland in week eight. They won 32-13. They beat Tennessee the week before, but they're not really like whooping teams because they can't run the ball to protect leads. So this line's too high. Giants have been pretty good on the road. Like they were live.

1:32:32They've blown five double-digit leads on the road. Yeah. They were live to beat many very good teams. Live to beat all of them.

1:32:41Bill Simmons:So the other thing with this Pats game, they have a bye week after this week. They're banged up and they got Buffalo the week after. And this just feels like a classic. Can we just sneak through this game? Let's try not to have any more injuries. Anyway, I'm marking it down. Bill Steelers is the last one. Bill's at Pittsburgh. Bill's are minus three and a half. Bill's 10 days rest. Steelers missing their left tackle. They're missing Harmon on defense. I didn't think last week was a great game for them. Rodgers is apparently coming back, even though he's going to have a splint on his wrist. And I don't like the hook, especially in Pittsburgh.

1:33:20Bill Simmons:But I do want to put the Bills in the tease or a parlay. I would like to discuss that. As a money line leg? We could do, I think we both like the Eagles minus seven against the Bears. and we could just do Eagles money line, Bills plus one and a half and make that one of our picks. So the counter is plus one and a half in Pittsburgh. The case you have to make for Pittsburgh is 18 years of Tomlin. Tomlin in these situations, they can't lose any more games. They're going to be out of the playoff picture if they lose any more games. And their ability to generate turnovers, especially at home, especially in this dog position, when you sit down and go through the numbers, the trends, Tomlin in this spot at this point in the season, especially three and a half, you have to play.

1:34:12So the right thing to do is what you're guiding us towards, which is get away from, don't play three and a half. Get away from the hook. Do something else. But do you really feel like we can trust the Bills? That's my question to you.

1:34:29Bill Simmons:So I thought about this. the Bills are 7-4. 11-6, you're almost in danger. You might not even make the playoffs with how many 11-12-win teams they're going to have. They can't really afford any of their losses. Did we overreact to that Houston game? I mentioned this to Sal on Sunday. They're playing on three days rest. They're playing in Houston against the best defense in the league. And they almost won, by the way. Had the ball in the 10-yard line, first down, and they couldn't punch it in. but they were in the game. It wasn't like, yeah, Allen got sacked a bunch of times, but that was the best defense.

1:35:06Bill Simmons:They did only have two days to prepare for it, basically. And I don't know. It just feels like we're actually getting the bills on a nice, kind of on a nice zag situation where people are a little too down on them. And the market's not though. It's three and a half. The market's kind of telling us. I don't, we both agree. Everybody's going to be like, Oh, Pittsburgh three and a half Tomlin at home. You got to take the points. That's what I'm thinking. The only thing that makes me uneasy is it does seem like Pittsburgh is pretty comfortable with their run game now. And it is kind of a two-headed monster.

1:35:41Like both Jalen Warren and Gainwell as a revelation. And they're getting catches out of the backfield. They've really done something nice with their two-headed running back core. and the thing that has beat this Bills defense all season long is the running game.

1:36:02Bill Simmons:All right. I just want to make sure we're being cautious. You're advocating a stay away. We still have to come up with five picks. All right. Thursday. Lions Packers. It sounded like you like the Packers a little bit, but I'm going to force us to take the Lions. Well, you can do that. I am vehemently opposed to it. Okay. Can you make the case? Let's hear it. I think the version of the Green Bay Packers that we saw in the very first game of the season against this Lions team is still present and that they can do the exact same thing to this Lions team. The skepticism around the Lions coming into the season was they had two of their Hall of Fame-ish interior offensive linemen, one retired and one plays for another team now.

1:36:51And the changeover at offensive coordinator and defensive coordinator. All of that has proven to be, you know, factor in making this Lions team look pretty underwhelming against every team with any kind of talent. And I think that this Green Bay defense is being underrated. I think that they are, to me, they're a top three defense in the NFL, the Green Bay defense. And I think they have no problem whatsoever going into Detroit and bullying the Lions. They won in 2023. They had the ball last possession last year and lost right at the end. They're not afraid of going in. And this Lions defense was on the football field for 80 snaps.

1:37:39That game went to overtime against the Giants. Here's the, if you want to get into the trend thing, teams that play on Thursday after playing in an overtime game, 6-25 against the spread since 2000. 6-25. And it's at noon. So it's not even like they're playing nighttime, the Lions. So I'm on Green Bay. I've already bet it. I bet the money line. I think they're the better team. I think they're going to win the NFC North.

1:38:12Bill Simmons:That was a pretty compelling case, House. I don't know what it is about Thanksgiving. trying to come up with a good counter other than I have no idea where the Packers are going when it's third and seven here the counter is um the Packers are also like one Jordan Love falling down the wrong way because of the you know he was handing off with his opposite hand uh because that you know whatever that injury is if he falls down the wrong way one time I noticed that yeah Yeah. And, you know, we're still waiting for that offense to really wow us. Now, Emmanuel Wilson, who you picked up, you son of a gun.

1:38:51In my Ringer Fantasy League. In my Ringer Fantasy League.

1:38:54Bill Simmons:Part of my dramatic comeback. Yeah. Jacobs, I bet, plays. Well, I'm looking. I think we're going to play each other. If the playoffs started this week, we would play each other. So I'm trying to look at who I'm likely to end up playing against. But Jacobs, I expect the reason that he didn't play on Sunday is so that he could play this game. But what if that's a two-headed kind of monster for them? Because you've got to play Wilson, so you've got to play both, I think. And that should help Jordan Love, but that would be the counter, I think. So are you advocating Philly money line with Packers plus six and a half?

1:39:33Oh, I mean, that would be fine, of course. because the Philly money line is fine with anything you want to pair it with, from my perspective.

1:39:40Bill Simmons:What if we had Eagles, the Eagles minus one and a half, and we got that Lions to plus seven and a half? Fine, great, done. That sounds pretty exciting. Awesome. So you're saying even if the Lions win, which you're skeptical of, it's not a game where they're going to be blowing the Packers out, anything like that. You're expecting a tight game or you're expecting the Lions to kick their ass. Yeah, yeah. I think that the Green Bay has the right personnel to handle the, you know, Detroit's weapon is Jameer Gibbs because golf has really not been that impressive. We keep waiting. That was a classic Detroit get right, put up 50 point spot against the Giants and they should have lost a football game.

1:40:29So, and it's because they just can't, they don't win at the line of scrimmage the way they used to.

1:40:35Bill Simmons:Oh, man. So I'm Fando Packers plus 6.5 is minus 235, but plus 7.5 is minus 330.

1:40:44They're not giving us that over the top.

1:40:47Bill Simmons:So it would have to be Eagles money line with Packers plus 6.5. Fine, fine, fine. I mean, the Packers are going to win outright. I've bet on it. I'll accept my fate if they don't. If Jordan Love gets hurt. Well, your fate last week was you gave us the Saints minus one and a half, which I didn't want to do. And that fucking lost. So your fate's been pretty fateful. Well, I, so many lessons learned. What are the lessons? I mean, don't bet on Tyler Shuck. Taylor Shuck, what's his name? I thought I was watching Tennessee from last year, watching that game. Because I was in field goals. They had fucked up two fourth and first and goals.

1:41:25Invested in. Yeah. Like they were bad in every phase. They had poor planning. It was a poor scheme. It was a poor execution, offense, defense, and special teams. It was really, like I said, I thought we were watching the Titans from last year. It was a Callahan special.

1:41:43Bill Simmons:Cowboys, Chiefs, Cowboys are getting three at home. Chiefs, speaking of your overtime stat, they also played overtime on Sunday. And I liked, it's funny, because I used the logic for liking the Cowboys in this game as part of my calculus. and didn't use that for the Lions-Packers until you reminded me that the Lions also played overtime. This went from three and a half to three. There's some wiggle room here with the T's too, with the Cowboys. That's another one we could throw in a seven and a half. I would much rather just take the plus three. Not me. I'd rather have the points. I'd rather have the points.

1:42:21What do you mean? I'd rather have the extra points over seven and a half. I need a backdoor. three doesn't give us a backdoor with Dallas.

1:42:30Bill Simmons:Well, one more game. Bengals, Ravens. Bengals plus seven. No T. Higgins. Chase is playing. Burrow's playing. I got to watch this team against the Patriots last week. They're not very good. It's one of the reasons like the Pats-Giants line, like the Bengals, we made the Bengals defense look like it was pretty confident. I'm not sure it is, but I don't like the Ravens either. The Bengals have the worst defensive DBOA since 1978, according to Aaron Schatz. The Ravens, I don't know what the advanced metric is for eye test. This looks like something's wrong, but something looks wrong, especially with Lamar.

1:43:10Bill Simmons:I almost want to stay away from this game. Good. Please do. Because the correct side is definitely Cincinnati at that number. I don't want to take Cincinnati. What evidence is there of Baltimore winning by margin against a team with a good quarterback? I don't want to go against Burrow. I mean, there will be a rust factor. There will be all this stuff. But I just, I mean, these two teams, this divisional game, that's a lot of points for a divisional game with all the uncertainty around a Burrow return.

1:43:45Bill Simmons:Well, we only have four picks. Here's the problem. What are they? four. Packers plus two and a half. Eagles minus two and a half parlayed with Cowboys seven plus plus seven and a half. That's like minus 113. Browns six and a half over the Niners. Giants plus seven and a half over the Patriots. Then we need one more game. So it's either the Texans plus four and a half or we or we just blindly take the Steelers Tomlin infrastructure plus three and a half. or we take the Bengals plus seven just because it's Thursday and we get to root for it let's do that, that's more fun we're at the stage of the season, week 13 it's Thanksgiving I'll be sprawled on the couch t-shirt halfway up by the way, this is the Thursday night game I know, that's what I mean I'll be on the couch protruding belly t-shirt three quarters of the way, barely covering.

1:44:50It ain't going to cover my belly. I don't think

1:44:54Bill Simmons:the Ravens are good. Yeah. All right, let's do it. All right, Ringer 107. Lions, as always, presented by FanDuel. House wanted us to take Packers plus two and a half against the Lions, so we're doing that. You're basically vowing the Packers are going to win this game. This is confidence I've seen you all year. True story. I believe it. We were talking, we did the two for the money rewatchables. And we were talking about that sports advisors era when they dramatically said, this is the lock of Thanksgiving and whether we should incorporate that in our own ring or one else. The only time we did that all year was that one Browns game, the bad weather game with two ago in a Cleveland where we were like, this is our lock of the year.

1:45:34Bill Simmons:The Browns against Tua in that one. I don't know if we should start doing that more and we won. So we're one and O and we go lock of the year. So Packers plus two and a half. Is this house's lock of the holidays? It's the Thanksgiving lock. It's the turkey leg lock of Thanksgiving. My Thanksgiving lock brings in Black Friday, and it is Eagles minus 2.5 with the Cowboys parlayed to plus 7.5. Eagles have to win by 3. Cowboys are getting 7.5 points. We're parlaying those together. We're going to take the Bengals plus 7 against the Ravens because it's too many points. Burrow's back. Jamar Chase is back.

1:46:11Bill Simmons:Trying to prove to everybody he's learned some lessons. a Bengals defense, either the Pats offense isn't good or the defense actually looked pretty frisky. They had some goal line stops and they were at least playing hard. There's three. Browns, plus six and a half at home against the Niners. House and I just feel like the Browns are like, home Browns are like a different, they're like the 33rd NFL team. And then last but not least, we're staying away from Bill Steelers because of the hook. We're staying away from Texans plus four and a half at Indianapolis because we're not sure Indianapolis at home might have forgotten how special that team is.

1:46:49Bill Simmons:And we're going to take Giants plus seven and a half in New England because the line's too high because the Patriots don't have an offensive line anymore. They can't run the ball and even if they take a lead, it's going to be hard for them to extend and move it out. And there's a whole Giants-Pats history and I think it's the right one. And the back door is open if Jameis is the quarterback. That's true. I hope the Patriots win by 40 points, but that's going to be our Ringer 107. The last pick, Giants, plus seven and a half. All lines subject to change. Presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. All right, give us your 2025 Thanksgiving rankings before we go.

1:47:22Thanksgiving rankings.

1:47:23Bill Simmons:Number one thing you're most excited to eat. What is it? Dark meat. I love to get underneath. It's not just you could take the leg and the leg is fine. But where it connects, that thigh meat, the juicy thigh meat, because it's been sitting in the pan and roasting for hours and all of the moisture of the turkey is right down to that portion of it. That's the bird butter. That's what I want. I would put my face in it if I had the opportunity. But this is, you know, I understand everybody that's like, oh, turkey, yeah, I had to do turkey. You're missing – it's a rare thing. We don't have it all the time.

1:48:06So try and find the portion of it that is just – it is flavorful. It's packed full of flavor right where I'm describing.

1:48:14Bill Simmons:Turkey is the quarterback of Thanksgiving that you try to look for other things that are the most important player in the team. And it's like, no, it's actually the turkey. It is the turkey. Everything revolves around the turkey. We don't eat it that often because it immediately puts you in a coma. There's a scene in Beast and Me when the bad guy, Matthew Rhys, his character, he's just eating rotisserie chicken. Oh. I don't know, have you seen that show yet? I don't know it, no. He just starts eating this chicken and he's just like eating it like an animal. And the only other person I've ever seen do that is you.

1:48:46Bill Simmons:All right. What's your number two Thanksgiving thing you're excited to eat? Stuffing, but it's got to be sausage stuffing because I love the combination. And it's got to be a moist stuffing. I don't, I understand when, when, um, you know, folks go for that, that, that crispy baked top, but it can have the effect of, of undermining the moisture, sucking the moisture out. So as long as you can preserve the moisture, but like, I like big chunks of sausage, um, in there. I like the pow and I like, you know, a nice bite of fennel in, in, in, in the, in with the, uh, that, that, that stuffing. And if you want to throw a couple of red pepper flakes, if you want to elevate, you know, um, the, the spice level, I'm, I'm here for it because when you put that next to that, that, uh, that, the, the dark Turkey, um, you know, it's almost takes you in the direction that dark turkey with the juices, it's a little bit gamey also, potentially.

1:49:43And then you get that sausage and the pop of that sausage, the way that that eat and the moisture of the bread along with it. Those are bites. Those are world-class, once a year, revel in it bites.

1:50:00Bill Simmons:Big chunks of sausage was in the text between Olivia Nuzzi and RFK Jr., but I can't remember who texted it. All right. My favorite, I'll let you go again for your third pick. My favorite is stuffing of everything. And for all the reasons you laid out, I don't like when it's too dry. I like when it's a little moist. I like putting gravy on it. I like taking the turkey. I don't eat the stuffing by itself. I always have the stuffing bite with the turkey, with some cranberry. And as I say every year, and people think I'm a serial killer, I still like the canned cranberry over like the fancier homemade.

1:50:37Bill Simmons:Give me the old school, buy it at any grocery store. I still like that cranberry jelly round, whatever fucking, however you describe it. I still like that the most. We've come all the way around. People now, what I see is folks, even high end chefs saying advocating, go ahead. And if you want to make your foo food, do it, but also make sure you serve a canned version next to it because it's, it's nostalgia. and it is tasty. It's still tasty. Carve it out. It also has a little better consistency. So you put it on the stuffing, scoop it in with the turkey and a little gravy. And it's like, that's the best bite I'm going to have.

1:51:16Bill Simmons:Number two is my mom's, the sweet potato casserole thing that she makes with that. She puts like, it's basically a diabetes special. It's like, there's pecans on it. It's brown sugar. It's cooked. But there's marshmallows in it. It's like you just go into a coma basically after you have it. Is it dessert or is it served as a side? No, it's a side. Yeah. But the funny thing is we have mashed potatoes too. We do double. We have mashed potatoes with the sweet potatoes. Yeah. Mashed potatoes and sweet potatoes are fairly traditional double dose. I think that's a lot of things. What's your number three?

1:51:54I don't want to be told that this is a cop-out. it's gravy because gravy plays such a crucial role to elevating every aspect of what's on the plate. If you've got mashed potatoes on the plate, then you got to have the gravy. If you've got the juicy turkey that I'm talking about, but the gravy just elevates it to push. It's a glue guy. The gravy plays that glue guy role and it elevates everything. Any vegetable you're going to have on the plate, got to have it, you know, have the gravy available to dip, you know, if there's green bean. I mean, I'm not, I don't do the green bean casserole with the mushroom soup.

1:52:34I like kind of the roasted vegetable vibe. My mom's making that.

1:52:37Bill Simmons:The green bean casserole. That's great. That's great. Because she has to bring one of traditional green beans or green bean casserole. You could have both. What you find is that anything with casserole in it, I'm probably going to eat at Thanksgiving. Yes. Yes, for sure. My wife's trying some cream spinach thing that I didn't even really fully understand. From a steakhouse, that vibe? Yeah, I didn't really understand it. It just sounds like more calories, but apparently that's happening as well. Okay. You know, the Italians, this is my beloved aunt Jen, now deceased, but it was multi-courses. Like to start with the, this is for Easter too, where there's a lasagna.

1:53:16Yeah. Oh, sure.

1:53:17Bill Simmons:And then a ham and then Thanksgiving. That makes sense. But that's like, I don't know. That's fucking crazy. I look back, I'm like, how do you have a ham and a turkey? That's absolutely bonkers. I don't think it is. So like my household tradition, the thing, and I've put pictures of it up. My mother for, you know, 50 years makes an anapasta with rolled Italian meats, cheeses, olives. We had that sometimes too. Yeah, the vegetables in the brine, like that whole spread. Maybe with a little bit of tuna in the middle, flaked tuna. What's your favorite? What's your fourth after gravy? Any other ones?

1:54:03Bill Simmons:Nah, I mean, we covered the most important parts. How about favorite pie? Definitely a thousand percent sweet potato. I love sweet potato pie. I mean, you're still in the same basic kind of orientation. with pumpkin. And why would I say anything bad about pumpkin pie, but sweet potato pie is superior. One of the biggest tragedies I've had since I moved to LA, it's not in the top three, but it's in the top 10, was when my wife's friend, Robin, who made the porch pies. Oh, yeah. And she moved back to the South and we don't have porch pies for Thanksgiving anymore. Man. And she would make the chocolate chess and the pumpkin.

1:54:40Bill Simmons:The chocolate chess was outrageous. And the sweet potato. Yep. And it was the fucking best. And now it's just gone. And I haven't had a pie since. That's like it. was always the number one. I don't know why she just didn't stay here and open a porch pie shop. You could call her up and ask her to send you one. Maybe I should make her move back. She doesn't have to move. That's an extra 10 pounds for me, though. You can just ask her to make one and put it in a FedEx. It was so good. What's your least favorite Thanksgiving dish or dessert? Do you have one that you're just out on? I don't tend to eat the rolls.

1:55:11I don't mess with the bread because... That's a great point.

1:55:14Bill Simmons:Why is there bread on Thanksgiving? I'm looking forward to every other aspect of it. the stuffing. Yeah, exactly. That's, that's, that's right. And I, I want like my calorie allocation. I want it to the stuff. That's like the once a year stuff. It's like your, your green bean casserole, your, your, your, your mom's sweet, but like, let me have, it's only once a year that you're going to have that. Why am I having a Parker house roll or those roles are good. They play, you can know they sop up the gravy and stuff, but that's the, I'd rather have the gravy on the other things. I'm always out on rolls.

1:55:46Bill Simmons:To me, rolls are the run into the middle of the line on the first down. Like what's the point? We're still, we're still going to have to throw it to get a first down. Why do we do that? Negative EPA. Yeah. I might get an offensive lineman hurt. A million things that could go wrong. What's your eating schedule on? So you're just eating constantly. Yes. I'll wake up. I'll start eating savory. I'll have coffee in the morning um whatever the first game comes on at noon and i'll have um i'm traveling this year i'm not going to be with my mom so i won't my mom's antipasta is like 12 30 it's it's it's um halfway through the second quarter of the first game that's the house tradition uh but i will figure out you know a way to get a version of it and just i'll start having plates starting at halfway through the second quarter because i'm how many hours since your last meal before thanksgiving Do you try to go like 15, 16 hours?

1:56:39No, it doesn't matter. At this stage, you know, we're professionals. I don't need to like starve myself in advance. I like to do early dinner the night before,

1:56:51Bill Simmons:nice empty stomach. Great. Then move in right around that first, end of the first game, West Coast time. Great. But then the second meal around 7.30 range. I'm not in it all day. I'm like, eat, can't believe how much I ate. I want to throw up. Should I throw up? Where's the Tums? I don't want you to do that. I'll have a glass of red wine. Don't eat so much that you feel that way. And then the second wave around 7-7-3. Eat before you think you're full. Before your brain tells you you're full, stop eating. That's how you can eat once an hour. I'm getting that advice from you. You've overeat more than anybody I've ever met in my life.

1:57:30I can eat all throughout.

1:57:32Bill Simmons:I saw you pass out in a phone booth that didn't have a phone once because you ate too much. What's the thing that defines me, though? Everybody else has stopped eating. True. And I continue to eat. Long distance runner. There you go. Yeah. You're like the rabbits in the marathon. They come and go and you're just still chugging away, putting the eight minute miles together. I can't wait. I can't believe we have three interesting football games in a row. It's going to be outrageous. This hasn't happened since we were in college. How about four? You know, we, all Bears fans are going to be super mad because we've been, I'll put my hand up.

1:58:08I've been down on the Bears all season, super skeptical. And we just, like I said, Eagles in Monty Line, Eagles. We're not, we gave no discussion whatsoever with the Bears. Here's why we didn't give a discussion.

1:58:21Bill Simmons:Here are their last one, two, three, four, five, six, seven wins. they beat Gino Smith, Mariota, Rattler, Flacco, the Dart-Wilson combo, J.J. McCarthy, and Mason Rudolph. Congratulations! I mean, it's literally what Washington did last year. That was Washington's run. I don't think you're going to beat the Eagles after a loss on Black Friday at some weird time of the day. In Philadelphia. In Philadelphia. I just don't see it happening. Yeah. But you might keep it close. That's why we did the Moneyline. Anyway. Happy Thanksgiving. Best to you and yours. Great to see you, House. Thank you. Great job.

1:58:58Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. That is fire. Whoa, that's good. This might be the drink of the summer. Okay, I like this one too. I'm rocking with it. Okay. Try it for yourself. Starbucks refreshers concentrates are coming home. Find them in the coffee aisle and make it yours.

1:59:18Bill Simmons:All right, Chris Ryan is here. We're taping this on a Monday. We just did a rewatchables with Sal that by the time you hear this, went up, did two for the money. And then we thought, because we were sitting here, we'd talk about Landman, which I know you're excited about. Very much. I want to talk about Philly sports, which you're not as excited about. No, because I don't like it when you put me in the Philly cuck chair. I want you to bring me on when you want to celebrate Philadelphia. I don't always want to have to answer questions. Would you call it the Philly cuck chair? Yeah, I don't always want to come on and be like, Joe Allen beats knee is not doing great.

1:59:45you know or like but that Sixers stuff's going great the Sixers stuff they're my heart I love them so much I have such an uncomplicated relationship we'll start there

1:59:53Bill Simmons:let's talk about this rejuvenated kind of Sixers future even though you have two of the worst contracts in the league but somehow everybody's good with it yeah and also like even the two guys who have the worst contracts seem to be enjoying themselves which I would too if I was making that money and sitting on a bench for most of the time but the young core of this team is so delightful and so awesome to watch Maxi moving up the ladder for most popular Phillies sports athletes in a while. If I watch him without my glasses on and I see the black uniform, it looks Iversonian sometimes. Come on, it kind of does.

2:00:25Like he's so electrifying. The minutes is crazy.

2:00:30Bill Simmons:Terrifying. With the way he plays. Yes. Where it's just like, this dude's going to do this 41 minutes a night. And the answer is yes, he actually is. He's been, I mean, he's a second team on NBA guy, maybe even in the running for first team right now. Yeah. And they have just like, they're obviously just scraping together a team from what they have in terms of like, it's Maxie and Edgecombe and Grimes. And then like whatever night they have, it's like Barlow or whoever they have to throw out there in the front court. But I don't know. It's just like, they play fun games. It's the cardiac Sixers, a lot of tight games, a lot of clutch games.

2:01:04So it's really,

2:01:04Bill Simmons:Lex been swinging a little bit. Yeah. And it's, it's a really good lead pass. I mean, Edgecombe came a little bit down to earth, but not like so much that you're like, oh, that was a fluke. Like he's obviously going to be a really, really amazing player. Any Knipple? Should we have taken Knipple at three? I don't have any Knipple. Should we have taken Knipple? Okay. Yeah. I want to make sure. Yeah, I think you're in a little bit of a Knipple bubble. Knipple's made the most threes of any rookie ever through 12 games or something. Sounds great. Knipple's doing great. No, I like Edgecombe. That's a good battle.

2:01:35Bill Simmons:It's a great rookie class. Ben and I bought a bunch of boxes from this class for cards because I love this class and I didn't even realize how deep it was going to be. But it's like, this has a chance to be one of the generational classes. The Edgecombe with Maxi, I think, pushes it over the top because there are these two guys that clearly complement each other in like the best possible ways. And you can see like, this is like the foundation of we can now build a team around this. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Like, I know what this is now for the next seven years, but you just have to wait out the Embiid piece.

2:02:10Yeah. And Edgecombe really excites me because even when he's got games where he's not fully involved or it's not going right for him, he doesn't quit on the game. Like, he'll still do lots of little things. Yeah. Grab an offensive rebound, do a hit ahead past. Like, it's just, he's just a really fun basketball player to watch.

2:02:27Bill Simmons:Yeah, he can, there's some rookies that if they're not doing well from a scoring standpoint, they're pretty much useless in the game. But he's still around. Like, he rebounds, he moves without the ball. The Maxie thing, you know, I don't know what the sample size would have to be before we start talking about him in the territory with Brunson and Mitchell and Booker and people like that. But we're probably like 10 more games away from him just being in that group. Especially if he keeps playing games where he's the best player on the court on both teams. You know what I mean? Everyone says he's the best fucking guy.

2:03:02Doc was saying this forever. So beloved in Philly. Yeah. Like is already probably, I'd say, top two or three, if not the number one Philly athlete right now. It's so weird.

2:03:13Bill Simmons:It's so weird how all this works out where you think it's going to be, it's the process with Embiid and Simmons. And then Maxi's this post-lattery pick, right? A bunch of teams pass on him. And that ends up being the guy. Yeah. Yeah. That ends up being the guy you're going to have for 15 years. I actually just feel bad for Embiid because he can't participate in this. you know or like he can't participate in it consistently like you know he was getting back or not anywhere close to his old self but numbers wise was doing pretty decently per minute and PG had like a really nice game the other night I think it was the he was on a minutes limit against the Bucks but had like a really good I saw some PG by the way he's not a disaster no of course not like he'll definitely help whatever's going on it's just like are those guys ever going to be healthy together right with Maxie Edgecombe and Grimes probably not right I mean, so OKC has your pick, but the team's going to probably be good enough.

2:04:09Bill Simmons:There's already... There's three teams in the East that have already said we're done. Yeah. And Charlotte will be the fourth. I don't know what the Celtics... The Celtics keep winning every time I think they're about to go in a seven-game tailspin. I thought we were talking about Philadelphia. Well, but it seems like there's 11 East teams, right? So we're trying to decide who's real, yeah. Even if Philly was like, you know what, we're actually going to tank so that we don't want to give OKC a pick. I think it's too late. I don't think they can, like... afford to tank with the fan base. I think they have to play.

2:04:38Bill Simmons:Or with Max. If you have Maxie playing like this, you can't tank. No. You can't shut that down. I got to bring it up. Do we have to give Daryl some props here? Yes. Daryl was being fired for two years, but he picked Maxie, right? Or was Maxie already there? No, he picked Maxie. I think he picked Maxie, yes. He picked Maxie. He picked Edgecombe. He picked Edgecombe. And he finds good... By the way, he tanked so that they would be in position. They audibled quickly enough that it actually paid off, which I'm not sure everybody would have done. All the side stuff, like the Grimes trade was a great trade.

2:05:16Yes, and then holding his powder dry to sign Grimes for the number that they got him back, not blinking when Grimes was like, I'm$25 million a year, and getting freaked out by that and just kind of waiting that out was really good.

2:05:29Bill Simmons:The mistake was not trading Embiid when he could have. I think there was a moment with the Knicks pre, when before they went all in on the towns and like this whole CA team that they have now, I think especially because Embiid was their old client, before they traded all those picks for Bridges, I think there was a monster Embiid trade to make. I know that this is probably... He was a house of cards. He was. It's an antiquated, anachronistic idea or whatever, but like trading your franchise player in division is very, would have been, that would have been a real death sentence for Daryl, I think.

2:06:01Bill Simmons:would you have been like why are we doing this or would you have been like oh that's pretty smart no I just would have been like I can't believe I have to watch Joel Embiid go to like the Eastern Conference Finals or the Finals on the Knicks after all the years that we kind of like emotionally invest in it that makes sense well they're in a you know these contracts whatever you know what the heart of the team's gonna be you know you have like one of the best 12 to 15 assets in the league in Maxie so you wait out the Embiid-George thing with or without Joel if we make the playoffs it's like a really cool like you probably would rather not see them in the playoffs?

2:06:34Bill Simmons:Yeah, especially if Embiid puts it together for 5-10. If they wind up being the 8th seed or the 7th seed, is Cleveland or Detroit going to be a little nervous to play them? I kind of feel that way about the Celtics. Well, just like if Tatum comes back in mid-February and they're able to get like 20... Have you decided on the number or the record that you would accept him coming back versus being like, just take a year off, bro? They're hitting this danger zone with this season. Even if they started tanking now, everybody's done so much work on the tanking ahead of them. I don't know how they pass some of these teams.

2:07:14Bill Simmons:Three teams in the East that you're not catching now. Indiana's just going to come up with all kinds of reasons to lose games from now on. And then the other two are terrible.

2:07:26Bill Simmons:Unless there's some sort of injury. Memphis, I'll be interested to see what happens with them when they throw the hat in the ring. But Utah will at some point start going backwards. But then some of these other teams, like Phoenix was a team I thought was going to be in the bottom eight, and they're not probably there yet. Dallas, I still don't believe, is going to be a tank team. No. It's like Kings, Pelicans. Pelicans are the one because they're going to play their young guys, but they don't have their pick. That pick goes to Memphis, right? That pick goes to Atlanta. Oh, Atlanta. Yeah, so there's still some tanking stuff up in there.

2:07:59Bill Simmons:But I thought the tailspin, the Celts had this awful loss to Brooklyn on Friday. And I was like, here we go. Oh, you went to that game, right? No, my dad did. He was like furious. He said it was one of the worst games he's been to this decade. And then Orlando doesn't play any of their guys and they went on a Sunday. So I think it's a zigzag situation. But this draft, I think the more people watch the draft, they're going to go nuts. What's been your favorite old school CR kind of NBA story through five weeks not counting the bomber stuff like are you like deep deep Damon Jones in it right now uh old school CR like a kind of like a dirty story or kind of like a feel good story dirty I think it's just watching what's happening the Clippers yeah and just like on and just how even if Harden scores 51 they're just in a dogfight every night and And not that I wish this on them, but it is, it kind of almost feels like a throwback season of like these just really, there's a couple of really gross, bad teams really early.

2:09:03Like the Kings thing is just like almost unwatchable on a night-to-night basis.

2:09:07Bill Simmons:And then somehow they beat Denver. Yeah, I know. Right as it felt like it was an all-time slip away for them. Yeah, it doesn't feel like a lot of teams can, other than Oklahoma and Detroit and a couple other places, they can't get any traction. Like even Jokic coming out and being like, we're not as good as we think we are. And Gordon getting hurt. It kind of puts a pause on their season. The Golden State stuff is so strange. Butler already starting to kind of do cryptic quotes about people defending. It's a strange year so far. And nobody seems to think they practice. So, I'm looking at the standings.

2:09:40Bill Simmons:Brooklyn, Indiana, and Washington are all three wins and less. Charlotte's 4-13. So those are four tank teams. New Orleans is 2-15. I don't see that changing. Sacramento's 4-13. This is on Monday. Then it goes Dallas Clippers, Utah, Memphis. Probably two of those fall. But yeah, the league's so deep now. These teams that you think, oh, they're probably going to suck. But then you watch Phoenix and they have like a bunch of NBA players in their team. Like Grayson Allen, Mark Williams, Royce O 'Neal. Playing together. And they're playing hard. They seem like they give a shit about each other. I'm the most interested in this whole, wherever this gambling story goes.

2:10:22Bill Simmons:Really? Yeah. So the David's just played. Windhorst did a big Damon Jones feature today, which I read, obviously. Yeah. He's just crossed paths with a lot of teams and a lot of people. And, you know, depending on how much he knows, like that, I keep thinking about Goodfellas, like Henry Hill flips at the end, right? So is Damon supposed to be Maury in this case? I think he's Henry Hill. Yeah, okay. It's like, oh no, they got Damon. I just don't know where it goes. And the Chauncey thing is nuts. I feel like we haven't talked about this enough. This guy coached the first game of the year. We haven't seen him since.

2:10:58Bill Simmons:He's being like a rain. He's in all these games. But I feel like there actually hasn't been enough like reporting about this, maybe because we can't find what the actual facts are. But I think this is a bonker story. Yeah, is it my imagination or is the NBA has been pretty like poker-faced about this? Like they're just like, we're investigating. Like there's not been a, we're in a crisis moment. Like we need to have like an independent investigation into this. Like, are they doing that? Like, I don't feel like we've seen a lot of like Adam Silver press conference, Adam Silver TV interviews about this stuff.

2:11:30Bill Simmons:Because I think it's more contained to the poker games. Right. But if there's situations where people have information they're passing along, it's the thing that the league can't police. Yeah. I think for the most part, pretty good NBA season so far. The games have been really good. They have been. Denver-Houston on Friday night was spectacular. The injuries suck, but I think that they're pretty, they're looking pretty soberly. it's like look the like the sports just changed so much in the last couple of years that these guys but they they have to i said this all the time they have to cut games out of the schedule we're at that point now i think it's too hard to play basketball though i've been a i've been to four games in four different arenas and it's the thing that jumps out all the time like how hard these guys are going they're covering so much of the floor compared to the nba we grew up with where and i know eddie johnson doesn't want to hear it but i just you can watch any of those games on YouTube.

2:12:21Yeah.

2:12:21Bill Simmons:There's a certain type of body that you were able to jog around, take some plays off. There's a lot of standing around, a lot of posting up. It was more physical, but you were more in danger of like having your nose broken. Sure. You weren't in danger of like having this, all this Achilles calf stuff, Davis getting hurt, and then them, now teams realizing like, hey, this could lead to this. Yeah. This feels relatively new to me. The amount of like probably preemptive let's pull this guy out for a couple weeks because he's in the red zone. It seems like they're taking it really seriously, especially after Halliburton and Tatum.

2:12:57Bill Simmons:How about all the streaming stuff with Amazon, Peacock, ESPN, all these different, just figuring out where games are on. I ended up just going to the NBA app because that will send you to the game anyway. Yeah, I mean, I have enjoyed enough the league pass experience on Amazon so far, but I think when it gets into the national games and when it's like, is this on Peacock? Is this on NBC? Is this on... It just... It's kind of sad. Like, I don't think that we, like, necessarily deserve to have every single basketball game for free. I mean, that's not how we grew up. You would basically watch your team.

2:13:35Yeah. And I've tried more or less just, like, watching the Sixers as much as I possibly can. So I've probably watched, I don't know, like, 10 Sixers games, 13 Sixers games. So I'm trying to keep it, like, more like as Sixers play people, that's how I see them. But it is really frustrating when you're home on like a Wednesday night and you're just like, oh my God, you need like all these different services just to get like a complete picture of the league.

2:13:58Bill Simmons:Yeah, I got a mailbag question that I didn't use from somebody who said, is the NBA now being marketed to the 1 %? Right. If you get the league pass, it's like 160 bucks, right? But you get, I think you get all the games. Yeah, there's some blackout rules, but yes. Yeah. Yeah. I would say the NFL is more guilty than that. The Sunday ticket is like three times the size of that, right? Even though they have some games on for free. But I just think this is the business of sports now. Yeah. Could they maybe all charge less and then make less money? Sure. Sure, but they're not going to do that. Guess what?

2:14:35They're not doing that.

2:14:36Bill Simmons:It's the same reason we have 82 games and not 72. Who was I talking to the other day? Oh, man. I would give this person credit about they never talk about making the NBA schedule longer which is how you know it's too long could we get this to 86 people would be like what are you guys doing the most they could do was the NBA cup do you think the cup's gonna are they gonna keep doing it or do you think that they're gonna oh yeah Amazon bought in I just don't know what the answer is to get people to actually care other than the courts are weird but like do you care I don't know the Sixers got bounced up I don't think that the group stage stuff is working I think that people in Champions League you know they've changed the groups the group model significantly in the last couple of seasons and it's helped a little bit but I think that if the NBA probably wants to make this like a huge product they they might have to introduce elimination earlier which I don't know if the teams would go for what do you mean like if you lose the first game to whoever you're just gone you're gone You're done.

2:15:43Now, you might have some teams basically tanking the cup because they're like, cool, maybe we get some nights off here and there. Yeah. But I just feel like if you want to make this exciting, you should introduce the idea of it being tournament basketball. You shouldn't make it just like another game and they're tied 1-1 in Group D with points differential coming into play. Like, that doesn't really, like,

2:16:03Bill Simmons:stir people up that much. Yeah, it's year three and I still don't know why the players ultimately care other than the extra money. Yeah. And that's really it. But ultimately, you want to make the best players in the team care. I'm sure they care a little bit, but you don't. Everyone keeps sending me the draft pick idea, and I just don't think the players would ever care. Oh, if we win this, we'll get the 10th pick. Oh, could my GM get another draft pick to draft my replacement? Right. Why would that ever be an incentive? I did think of one thing, though. I'll test drive this with you. Okay. With the cup.

2:16:37Bill Simmons:The problem is I can't figure out how you would do the tiers. But if it's a team that wins the cup and it's one of the 10 best teams in the league, when they win the cup, they're automatically guaranteed a four seed in their conference. So they know from that point on, we're at least home for round one because we won the cup. Right. But you have to be in the top 10. If you're not in the top 10, if you're from 11 to 20 at the time of the cup, you're guaranteed a playoff spot. you're guaranteed the 6 seed oh yeah and then if you're from the 21 to 30 range you're guaranteed to be in the play-in in the 7 seed spot no matter what happens yeah you're guaranteed the home game 7 seed spot even if you're like New Orleans and you're 2 and 15 you win now you get to be in the 7th speed you can actually control your play-in destiny would that affect the New Orleans draft slot though?

2:17:37wouldn't affect it They wouldn't because the record would still be. So wouldn't that basically encourage New Orleans to essentially throw every game that they have left? Because then you get into the play-in, but you also get the number one pick or have the best odds of getting the number one pick.

2:17:49Bill Simmons:The thing is, the 21 to 30 teams would never win the Cup. Sure. So it's usually going to be the best teams anyway. So if you're like, I don't know, think you're like the Bucs or you're Cleveland. It's like you might not actually be a top five seed. Yeah. Or you might actually be. now it's like I'm guaranteeing being a four seed. I just think it would be a fun. I just think they should run it more like the league cup or the FA cup in, in premier in English, English football where it's just like on the, there's, there are certain weekends that are cup weekends. And if you lose your out and I think, you know, they, you know, obviously they have like, if you draw, you have a replay for the FA cup, but you wouldn't do that in basketball.

2:18:29But I think it would be cooler if there was just a little bit more danger involved.

2:18:33Bill Simmons:If it was a 60 game schedule and we had the cup, I think it would work so much better. There's just too many games. It's hard to be in the... The whole reason the playoffs matter is people care about it. I still feel like at least it's a little different. It accomplished the objective of in December, in November, like, oh yeah, that's this game. It kind of means this. Yeah, that Denver-Houston game on Friday was fun. The red court, like pretty high-level basketball. And then Portland was next and they were in that. And I was looking at that bracket. I'm like, whoa, that's quite a bracket. But it wasn't like I was texting you like, do you see Group C?

2:19:12Bill Simmons:Yeah. Group C is loaded. Yeah, that's the group of death. Yeah. Speaking of death, Landman, our favorite show is back. We've seen two episodes of season two. And so Jon Hamm in January, when we were trying, we saw him for the fantasy football thing. And we're like, are you coming back? Because it was unclear of his character data. And I was like, no, no, I'm done. and he said how Taylor Sheridan had set this whole thing up. So Demi Moore was in a few scenes in season one and just seemed like, why is she in this? Yeah, why is she swimming laps in the background of this scene? And he was saying, because Taylor Sheridan set this up, season one was my season and then season two was the Demi season.

2:19:52Bill Simmons:Right. I think she's been awesome. She's been a lot of fun. Her first couple scenes in the first episode I thought were homeless. She's just doing Jon Hamm too. in a very fun way, but where she's just talking about the Serengeti and how she's going to underbid people's leases and all this stuff. The only difference between me and my husband is I'm meaner. It was just playing the head. She looks great. I thought her Texas accent was surprisingly good. That was like five to one odds. She was going to have a good accent, but I thought she was excellent. I thought Billy Bob and Allie Larder have completely figured out their whole thing.

2:20:33So how do you feel about though when it's like the Allie Larder 12 minute dinner scene? I'm in. You like it? Do some people not like it? Yeah. I mean, I like it for how crazy it is, but it is truly like unhinged television when they're just like, we're going to do an entire 12 minute scene about my menstrual cycle and white truffles.

2:20:57Bill Simmons:But I think that's what they're trying to do. It's like when she comes in, fucking safety off. Yes. And we don't know where this is going. I don't even feel like the actors know where it's going. Like they're all just sitting there at the dinner table just like, what the fuck is happening? So it makes me wonder, like, I don't know how Bob Taylor Sheridan is in these shows after he sets them up and writes the first season. He's writing this one. Yeah. That man's like a pretty huge show. So he definitely has some thoughts about marriage. Yeah. And I'm not sure if he just thought it'd be fun to take this angle or these are really...

2:21:28Bill Simmons:Because Billy Bob will have, he did this in episode two. He has these like, he's telling it, giving his son advice about how to deal with women. And it's almost like cutting too close to home. It makes me wonder, is this what Taylor Sheridan and all of his thoughts are? Billy Bob's his proxy for relationships? I'm sure he is his proxy. I don't know about what Taylor Sheridan's marriage is like. The thing I like the most about this show is that it doesn't really seem to play by that many rules. So it'll be like Cooper this son on this show. Who I really like. And he's, Jacob Laughlin's a really good actor, but he will be like, you're like, so this guy has basically been on an uninterrupted role since his friends died in the rig in the first season.

2:22:11He's wound up with this girl. It wound up being able to be with her because they've like successfully warned off like her friends and family members who were against it. Then he digs these wells by like reasoning with these guys to get their leases. Yeah. All of the wells hit and you're like, where's the conflict in this character? Is he just going to be like... Oh, we're getting the conflict. Every Hail Mary he throws is a touchdown. And then we find out this week that off screen, there's been some shenanigans. And this is probably just Taylor Sheridan being like, it's never too late to course correct something or to throw a curveball.

2:22:44And this kid needs an obstacle. So we're going to bring in the cartel. Andy Garcia and Tyra Cartel. As his silent partner and is financing these leases. Yeah.

2:22:55Bill Simmons:It just looks so easy to just go down to Texas and borrow some money from people and drill some land and just be like, what people don't realize is the land that people thought, the oil got, they already thought they tried it out. But what they don't realize is the oil is higher now. That sounds like it makes sense. The second episode was great because Tommy was like, what the hell is wrong with you? Why didn't you come to me about this? What would have happened if this had all gone wrong? And I think that will be a really good plot line for the rest of the season. Yeah, Billy Bob's done great.

2:23:28Bill Simmons:Then we have this whole Sam Elliott. So far, two scenes, both at sunset, both in a wheelchair. We'll see if Sam Elliott... Is Sam Elliott actually in a wheelchair in real life? Or what's going on? Well, he did say that he had gotten injured shooting 1883, and that he has had physical stuff since then, but that this was a part that he really wanted to play. So, I'm hoping now with the funeral coming up for Billy Bob's mother, that we'll get some mobile Sam Elliott out. She sounded like a prize. Yeah. Do you think Sam Elliott moves into the house with everybody else? Yeah. I've signed up for Sam Elliott this season.

2:24:04Bill Simmons:I need him in more scenes. We saw... It was at dinner in Malibu like a year and a half ago and Sam Elliott was in the bar. It was at this place. There's a steak place there and they have this place where there's like tables but you can also see the bar. And Sam Elliott came in and sat at the bar and it was like the most Sam Elliott thing. It's great. All the women were like... Sam Elliott. Women love Sam Elliott. Handsome dude. Like exactly what you would think. And he's just having like a scotch and soda. That guy has lived a life. That's great. Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe in Landman, they're taking it week by week, not knowing if he's going to be there.

2:24:40So you're watching Landman. You watched Beast and Me. What else are you watching? We're done with Landman? No, we keep talking about Landman. What other characters are there? We did Cooper. We did Tommy.

2:24:48Bill Simmons:Well, you know, they haven't figured out Billy Bob's son's living girlfriend. No, but she actually was like, hey, I don't know if I'm signing up for this. I feel like he's going to make a big speech and turn around. I wouldn't mind if we got rid of her and he ended up with, he started to play in the field a little bit on Landman. Okay. I don't really want anybody attached on Landman. Even Billy Bob and Ally Larder. Like, does anyone have to date anyone in Landman? He should just be like in all open relationships. Yeah, I think it should be all like the ice storm. I just don't know what's going to happen.

2:25:23Bill Simmons:said in Texas. But yeah, I don't like that plot that much. I'm glad he's a nice guy who wants to be a decent fake stepfather. I think he's trying to be the opposite of his dad. You know? Yeah, it's cool. Play the field a little. You're like, do we know how old he is too? Who, Cooper? Yeah. I think Cooper's supposed to be in his late 20s. He's out of Texas Tech, maybe mid-20s. He's been doing geology at Lubbock. But now he's probably a couple years out of school. And the daughter... Mid-20s. who I thought was great in the first episode. I love the college. The TCU stuff? Yeah, so I think she has.

2:25:58Bill Simmons:Are you trying to encourage Ben to go to TCU? After this show? No. Yeah, so Landman, I love Beast and Me. Yeah. I thought that was a home run. I'm midway through that now. Yeah, I thought that was really good. There's been some good documentary stuff. That one kind of reminds me a little bit of like really good early like FX and Netflix thrillers. I was going to say like early 2010 Showtime. Bloodline. Yeah. You know, like damages. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's Howard Gordon. Yeah. Who did Homeland and 24 and stuff. Yeah. Reuniting with Claire. She's really good. Would have been an interesting call.

2:26:37Bill Simmons:Yeah. Convinceing her to do it. No, no. This character is different than the other ones. Yeah, this character laughs it up. Yeah. This is a different one for you. That one's been really good. I feel like TV's had a really nice run this year. Yeah. we're about to do our best of the year in a couple weeks and it's one of the easier top tens. The cream is really, like, obviously the cream for this season. Somebody sent me a tweet that it was the 2000, it was a video of the 2014 Best Actor Emmy nominees. And the caption of the tweet was something like, we really knew how to make TV in 2014. Was it like Cranston Ham?

2:27:16Bill Simmons:It goes through, it's Cranston, Tam, it was Kevin Spacey in House of Cards. Who else was that year? Would that have been a Thrones year? Oh, two true detective guys. Oh, both true detective guys. Yeah. It's like when you're watching, it's like, oh my God. It's like this murderous row. That was the height of Greenland. Yeah. Just for like TV coverage where we just couldn't believe we had all these shows. Yeah, it's tough. We're in a different era now. But it's like there are successful shows like, well, A Man's got 9 million viewers, which is really good, or 10 million viewers or whatever. But it just feels it gets talked about differently and people watch it on their own time now.

2:27:54They've completely broken the idea of watching something on the night it comes out, unless it's like task finale or whatever.

2:28:01Bill Simmons:Yeah, but even that, White Lotus was the last Sunday night, this is the time it's on. But even that, my daughter didn't watch it when it was on. I think you have a whole generation of people now that the one difference is, so I noticed this with my daughter, Summer I Turned Pretty, which was dropping on Wednesday nights at two in the morning. Yes, I was participating. East Coast time. Were you actually participating? My wife is a huge Summer I Turned Pretty fan. So it was like 11 o 'clock on the West Coast. Yes. My daughter was in college. Up all night waiting for it to come on. There was one time where she stayed up for whatever the drop was.

2:28:39Bill Simmons:I thought that was interesting. And I think the Stranger Things Wednesday will be a big one. That'll be big. But I think that they, this is almost indicative of what I'm talking about, where they're playing to the idea that everybody's going to be off work and we'll have time to watch five hours or six hours of Stranger Things over the course of like a night or two. Whereas like before we would just be like, no, do the one hour on a Sunday night so that we can talk about it all week. Yeah, but this has been the Netflix conundrum for 10 years. But it's like, Even if they put Stranger Things out on a normal media schedule, if it had dropped two weeks ago, you would have just had so much more coverage of it.

2:29:17I think people will cover Stranger Things a lot, but they're circumventing the talking about it part.

2:29:23Bill Simmons:I don't know the answer, and it almost depends on the show. Because I think there's some binge stuff. Beast and Me was a perfect binge show. Not a show I want to watch week to week. Yeah, it wasn't quite... It was a really good show, but I liked the ability to just plow through it. There were like 40, 43 minute episodes. It really was a six episode show, but it just kind of extended out. Cut shorter. But I, you know, we always look at it from our, the Grantland Ringer vantage point of, we just want content. Sure. So White Lotus was perfect. Yeah. And then you get shows like... Task was perfect.

2:30:02Perfect. And then every once in a while you get like adolescence, you know, where it's just like out of nowhere somehow. everybody is talking about this show that's been on Netflix for a couple of days and everybody watches it.

2:30:12Bill Simmons:But the Garfield assassination show... Death by Lightning, really good. That's a perfect binge, though. Yes. I don't think that should have been We're in a Space to Sad every four weeks. When you go to like... But they crucially didn't make that into like an eight-episode show. Right. They were like, this has like, we're going to tell like a very contained story here. I thought the marketing of it was really interesting, too. The marketing, kind of, they snuck it out. The Game of Thrones guys were involved. Yeah. They didn't really play that up. They kind of put it out, but it did really well, it seemed like.

2:30:42Bill Simmons:But I didn't feel like there was a lot of buzz at all, whereas like the Stranger Things. Do you watch Pluribus at all? Have you checked it out? I'm going to. That's on my list. I feel like this is a combo sports culture thing, but everybody's just better at spreading out the content and picking weekends so that it's kind of relentless now. Oh, yeah. There would be stuff, I think like back 10, 12 years ago, where we just have weekends where there was no new movie, no TV show to watch, and no sports on. Yeah. Like, ah, fuck. And now you're like, I feel like I'm already really behind on awards movies.

2:31:16Right. And the TV stuff I'm on top of, but it still is like, it's piling up for sure. Pretty much after Stranger Things, Fallout's coming out, and then the rest of the year is pretty quiet. For TV. Until January when industry comes back.

2:31:31Bill Simmons:Yeah, because in sports, the, and this was a big neck con thing for UFC and WWE, like just that whole company that runs that stuff, they really studied the schedules of we shouldn't be putting WrestleMania out on this weekend. Why don't we do this weekend? It's a little more dead. Why don't we have this boxing thing in the third weekend in August? Because that's a dead weekend. So now it just feels like we just go from week to week and there's always like a new thing. And I think the big thing for me, we haven't talked about it on this podcast, but I know you've talked about it on The Watch a bunch, but Paramount, what happens with them if they can get Warner Brothers or if Comcast can get Warner, whoever gets it?

2:32:13Bill Simmons:Are one of those people going to be a disruptor? Because right now, I don't feel like we have disruptors in the same ways. Where we, Netflix has figured out their lane. Amazon is basically doing like, they're into sports. They have YA. They do a lot of dad shows. And dad shows for specifically my dad, like Bosch and those things. So I think that the one thing I would know about the Paramount stuff is that Cindy Holland is now essentially running their TV business. Yeah. And she was the person who kind of was the architect of Netflix's early TV strategy and has really, really well-guarded taste.

2:32:46So she was the one who brought in House of Cards and Orange is the New Black, all those shows. So I think that some of those first decisions that she's been making have been really interesting with Paramount. I don't know what happens if they acquire Warner Brothers. I mean, I think HBO is really the crown jewel of...

2:33:01Bill Simmons:Well, let's... We'll do the players, right? Netflix, we know what they are. Every week they have something. Apple has these shows. They always have big stars. They're either a movie or a TV show. But it's a closed circuit. Their shows don't go out. They don't get licensed anywhere. It's a global service, but at the same time, it's one that I think lots of people don't even know that they have if they've got it or don't even know how to do it. And they have stuff that comes and goes and you didn't even know it happened. Yes. Like real movies with famous people. No, there's a show on right now called Down Cemetery Road with Emma Thompson and Ruth Wilson, which is pretty good.

2:33:35But it's like, I don't think I've seen a single outside of Apple piece of advertising for it.

2:33:40Bill Simmons:And then the studio, which I think we all, we all were fairly high to pretty high on the ringer. I also think that was a New York LA show. I don't think anyone... I think that they're fine with a New York LA show. And it hit the awards that did everything they'd want, but it wasn't a big audience show. Severance, they claim is a big audience show, but I don't know how big of an audience it is. I think Severance and Pluribus have both kind of like moved into a larger... Pluribus is the one, yeah. Like theories, fan theories, and also like a larger Beyond Apple thing. Pluribus is a good one by our standards where we can get the content out of it every week, I think.

2:34:17Bill Simmons:But yeah, so you have them. You have Paramount, which has basically moved into this Taylor Sheridan kind of world. They just lost Taylor. I know, but they don't lose them for three years. Yeah, but like that's... I do wonder whether that's a little bit like, yeah, that's right, Mark Cuban, you can still be the governor. Right, right, right. At what point does Taylor Sheridan start offloading some of those shows to like protégés or people who are like now writing Mayor of King's Town or Y Marshals or whatever? And he starts to go to work, at least somewhat on his Peacock stuff. The fact that Comcast got Taylor Sheridan makes me think that Comcast thinks their major players for another 10 years.

2:35:02Buying the NBA rights, having the Olympics, getting Taylor Sheridan, that makes me think that they are really going, they're going to go after, I think they're really going after those Warner assets.

2:35:13Bill Simmons:Right. And maybe getting at least half of them. So it feels like we're about to hit disruption again because right now everybody seems too comfy. And Hulu, we didn't mention them, but Hulu, I'm not, it's Hulu plus FX. and they have stuff like... It's the Murdoch murders, by the way. I watched that. I enjoyed it. But don't you think at a certain point that just becomes tiles on Disney Plus? Like, won't they want to choose one? So who's probably a loser? And then Peacock, I guess, needs to be supercharged by whatever happens with NBCUniversal and fold it in. But I do think this... I think this whatever happens going forward with all these assets from the Warner Brothers is going to supercharge somebody.

2:35:56Bill Simmons:I just don't know who. Yeah. And it's a question of whether or not, like for instance, so Sean and Amanda were talking about this today. If Netflix were to buy Warner Brothers, do they still commit to the way like releasing movies? Or if they were to buy Warner Brothers, do they also buy HBO? Are they buying the HBO brain trust in HBO? Becomes like a, basically a tile on Netflix. Like I don't, I don't know how that stuff works. I don't see it. Netflix has never bought anything. So you think they're just doing their due diligence? I think it's, I think what they would want is the library. Yeah.

2:36:29Bill Simmons:And the IP. It's my understanding. Yeah, you get the Warner Brothers. You just get all these movies that are now just on Netflix and you just have them. I think HBO, however this plays out, HBO ends up on its own somewhere, carved out. I think the biggest thing that's happened in the last five years is HBO kind of got its mojo back as an entity. Sure. Because it really felt like Zaslav was trying to ruin it. It's like, no, no, it's only a part of this bigger thing we have and Max. I also think TV is getting back to being TV again post-COVID, post-Strikes, which is really worth keeping in mind when we say the sky is falling is that a lot of people's changing relationships to television was in fact a ripple effect of COVID and the strikes.

2:37:11That's where the three years in between seasons starts coming in. And now it's like the pit's coming back on in January or February. It's a big success. These shows, these Taylor Sheridan shows usually come back once a year. So we're starting to get back into TV as something that is repeatable on an annual basis, not something that's an event every three or four years.

2:37:34Bill Simmons:Everyone I know who tries to sell shows or make shows says the combo of COVID and the strikes changed the equation for the urgency these places had to actually green light shows. and that we're just making less stuff across the board and people are just more careful versus maybe Apple's not being as careful, but people are careful for the most part of what they're greenlighting, how long those things are going to be, how many seasons. And it's still kind of shaking out. So the Paramount thing, I think, is the most interesting wrinkle as we head into the second half of the 2020s. Are they just going to completely blow up the market for everything?

2:38:16Bill Simmons:Are they going to be trying to steal stuff? Also, are they the only people who can get a merger to go through because of the White House? So it's like, I don't know how that stuff works politically and what happens if tides change politically. I still feel like Tell Me Lies, the summarize term pretty, Stranger Things. Euphoria. There's still some massive shows being marketed It's people under 30 that are working in real ways. And then there's shows for the over 30 people that I think that stuff's been hitting too. I don't know. I'm pretty bullish right now. Yeah. It'll just be interesting to see whether people like your kids graduate into becoming TV watchers the way we were and like adopt their shows or whether they're just like, this is just like part of the content buffet.

2:39:03Bill Simmons:Or there's better stuff now. I was thinking about when we were kids, they would show reruns of sitcoms and we would watch them again. Syndication stuff, yeah. No, like on NBC. Oh, right. It's not a new episode of Night Court this week. Cheers again. Yeah. It's like, you already saw it. It's like, cool. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Yes. I'll watch it again. But that would be your only opportunity to ever watch it again. But now it's, I don't know. Everything is kind of narrowed down. I still don't, the thing I really want to see how it plays out just for TV and movies is comedy. I think we figured out everything but comedy.

2:39:40Bill Simmons:Like horror movies are the most backed I've ever been. The IMAX and blowing out these big movies on movie screens, you can even see it in the marketing now. We're like coming on IMAX March 23rd. So we figured that out. We figured out the Prestige TV, YA, all these different things. In comedies, we've not figured out. They don't release in theaters anymore at all. right nobody goes to see comedies in theater period do you think there's a correlation between the popularity of stand-up at any given time and the popularity of comedy television and movies in terms of like are people just going to see stand-up and watching comedy pods rather than watching comedy sitcoms and comedy movies that's interesting I just think we don't have the stars we have really big comedians though yeah but like here's the difference I was flying home on JetBlue the Wi-Fi went so now I'm stuck with DirecTV and they have like their 20 channels Beverly Hills Cop is on WeTV which I've seen 700 times I'm like alright fine I'll watch Beverly Hills Cop again this is my best option I can't watch the ESPN talking and programming there's nothing else and it's just a great movie and Eddie's just such a megastar in it and I just feel like if we had people like that comedies would be back we just need massive people who can carry movies that are really funny, which sounds like, it's like, we need a franchise basketball player.

2:41:08Bill Simmons:Great. I just don't know who those people are. And you're right. They've kind of drifted towards just doing these stand-up shows. I just think it's pretty lucrative to doing their stand-up and doing their pods. Like Nate Bregatzi. Yeah. Like 30 years ago, Nate Bregatzi's coming up with his version of Everybody Loves Raymond and not doing stand-up. Exactly. 1993 Ray Romano is trying to be Nate Bregatzi in 2025. He's not doing Everybody Loves Raymond. so TV sitcoms those have gone out the window and then that was also like a a platform to go into movies but I wonder with comedies what is the generation coming that was shaped by the Apatow movies and Superbad and all that because like Craig Horlbeck's age yeah because when we did the Weird Science pod me and Kyle we were talking about how much that movie influenced Superbad right Weird Science comes out in 85 Superbad's 2007 2008 range and the generation that wrote and super bad and acted in it was affected specifically by those 80 movies, like Weird Science.

2:42:09Bill Simmons:That new generation should be coming now for all the people that were affected by Jonah Hill, Bill Hader, Steve Carell, Will Ferrell, Anchorman. Like that should be transferring. But maybe that just goes to TikTok. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's also like that would be around like the people grew up watching Eastbound and Down and the Danny McBride stuff. That was an unbelievable comedy era. Yeah, and now I think probably the biggest comedy that's on right now is probably Chair Company, like in terms of like the Tim Robinson show. Is that even a comedy? Barely. It's got more in common with like David Lynch.

2:42:45Yeah, or some of those shows. I mean, I think it's funny, but it's a super weird show. Like I Love LA is interesting.

2:42:54Bill Simmons:It's not like, you're not laughing. Yeah, I think there's some like funny observations in it, but I don't know that it's like a comedy. or like a punchline driven comedy yeah this is like that Louis show started this where these shows that were ostensibly comedies but they're not and this is just where we've been 10 years I still think there's an option for somebody to just be really fucking funny but you need the stars unfortunately yeah I think that they I think it's become so lucrative to be your own boss and have your own comedy career that you don't want to go and be like, I'm a cop, fish out, I'm a fish out of water cop, you know?

2:43:35Right. And it's like, Theo Vaughn's not going to go do that movie.

2:43:37Bill Simmons:Like he's doing fine. What comedies would work? I still feel like buddy cop movies still work. Um. But, you know, I'm kind of surprised nobody's done a college comedy in a minute. I'm trying to think of like. Or would that just be on Netflix now? I guess, but it's, it's also just like, I think that those become TV shows probably. You're right. but we haven't had like a Project X kind of like party comedy in a while right right which has traditionally been like a nice place to start from where it's like that's like Animal House and like right but do people go see comedies in a movie theater anymore do they just wait until they're on like I really wanted to see the Paul Rudd Tim Robinson movie and I was like I'll just wait until it's on Amazon well this is this is they've crippled that because like now that's become like the ultimate like it's not exactly going to see one battle after another I can watch this on my TV whereas you have to see one battle after another in the theater.

2:44:31Bill Simmons:Have you seen it? How many times have you seen it? Twice. Once on IMAX and once at home. Yeah, I'm going to test drive it at home. It's so much, and it's almost three hours that you leave and you're just like, your head's spinning. I would say the second time through, because you know the rhythms of it, and you know where it's going, and you know how much longer the perfidious section is, and how much longer the... It really is an awesome second watch and rewatchable movie. Yeah, like some of the stuff I didn't pick up on the first time, I've only seen it once, but just how distinct and deliberate the starts in 2008, ends in 04, or 24.

2:45:14Bill Simmons:There's so many things I just want to watch. Yeah, and there's lots of nuances to the Leo performance and the Benicio performance that are like, on the second watch, I noticed even just Leo's vape acting is just elite on the second watch. Yeah, you think he's really vaping the whole time? He must be, right? I think he's an enthusiastic vapor, yeah. Did we cover everything? I think so. Thanks for popping on my Evergreen BS Thanksgiving Week podcast. Great to see you. Great to see you, man. Well, we didn't talk about the Eagles. Oh, yeah. You want to do some Tullo stuff? Let's go. Yeah, just quickly.

2:45:47Were you 8-3 and miserable? Yeah, that's what it is. Did you ever have a Patriots season like that? Did you ever have an 8-3 and miserable?

2:45:55Bill Simmons:We had a... I want to say it was 2009, 2010. It was after Brady's ACL. When they were winning and they were scoring, but you just knew they didn't have it. The only thing that's weird is that I don't know who has it this season. Yeah. It would be one thing if it was 8-3 and it's fake and they're about to lose to the Bears on Friday and it just goes downhill. But they could very well turn this around and go to the Super Bowl again. They get Lane Johnson back. There's all sorts of stuff. Like there's ways in which this could go better, but yeah, if you're doing the life depends on a test and you're like, what team's coming out of the NFC?

2:46:31Bill Simmons:And granted, I'll give you the Rams, but I don't know how the Eagles aren't the second pick. And especially with Tampa falling apart. Who else are you taking? Right. Seahawks? Like, I don't know. It reminds me of like the mid two thousands NFL, like the year we had that Colts Bears Superbowl with that Steelers Seahawks Superbowl where you're just looking at all these teams. going, yeah, like, really? You're going to make a Super Bowl with Hasselbeck? Rex Grossman's going to be in there? It might be that crazy. It might be a really flawed Patriots team, or the Bears just get the two seed, and somehow win round two on a punt return, and you're like, really?

2:47:14The Bears? Yeah, but I was watching the Lions yesterday, and... Another flawed team. And a flawed team, but so exciting, and feel so much more fluid and electrifying than the Eagles. Gibbs looks like what Saquon used to look like. But they're in nail biters every week, it seems like. So it's just like, I don't really know who's good.

2:47:37Bill Simmons:Who's your favorite Eagle? Oh, Devontae Smith. By far. Is he like the alternative band? He's like the Matthew Sweet of the Eagles? He's like the teenage fan club of the Eagles. calls it. All the cool kids. Yeah. The little Devontae Smith. I love Smitty. Yeah. Smitty we're calling him now? Yeah. When did that start? I think it's been like his Philly nickname for a minute. Yeah. What, what, how many Eagles text threads do you have? One major one with Andy and Zach. That's it? Just three of you? Yeah. Nobody else is invited? That's not even invited. I don't think anybody else would want to like withstand that.

2:48:15You know, just the amount of like us scouting other people's offensive coordinators.

2:48:19Bill Simmons:I have, I'm on a Boston sports thread that Hench is on, but I'm also on a Pat's thread with him and one other person. And somehow we don't repeat our takes on the two threads. Each thread has a different energy. A different vibe? The Boston sports thread's a little like happier. And then the Patriots thread is like hardcore. I'm really worried about Gonzalez. This is the third time he's been beaten by some fringe receiver. It's like getting into that. Oh God. Yeah. Those are some fun threads. Yeah. I was just telling you, like, I was like, if you go back two years, we're openly calling for Bobby Sloick to replace Sirianni.

2:48:55Bill Simmons:Oh, and you're on your text. Yeah. And it's like the, like the, the certainty with which we were like, it's just a matter of time before Sloick moves into Sirianni's office. And then he goes and wins a Superbowl. That would be a fun, uh, I don't know what that would be. Yeah. It would just be like take storage in your text. Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering, could you pay Apple to just get rid of your terrible sports takes? I'm positive we could beat the Lakers Like 2020 Alright, see you Alright, Tuesday afternoon Gonna finish the podcast with my daughter Zoe Simmons, who I made come home from college You resisted You were only home for a couple days It's a cross country flight I did come home for you You should come home for Thanksgiving You spent every Thanksgiving with us Yeah, but I came home for you Because I know how badly you want me to Was it mom, just me?

2:49:46It was for mom too But mom is less hurt by these sorts of things. You take this stuff to heart.

2:49:51Bill Simmons:That's my dad's side, though. That's that whole guilt trip side of the family. You're a grudge holder. You're a guilt tripper. I knew if I didn't come home, this would be hung over my head for the next 10 years of my life. I don't know how many more of these I have left. Come on. I mean, really. Let's not even go there. You'll be 21 in May. Yeah, it's true. For the people listening. For the people listening. You've been coming on this podcast since like 2017. Although, I was thinking about it. ESPN I had you and Ben sing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer when you were like little kids I forgot about that it's been quite a journey for us Stranger Things launching this week the defining show of your generation I think it's fair to say I don't even know what the competition would be it's interesting because your generation is like way scattered social media all these influencers everybody has all these different things they like and you don't have like the common stuff like my generation where we all watch the same shows movies but yet everybody watches Stranger Things.

2:50:45Bill Simmons:This is the one show like that? There's a few out there. Some of them are like older TV shows that people of my generation have found. Like Gilmore Girls is one of those shows where I think if you're a female within age like 13 to 30, you were just expected to have seen all of Gilmore Girls. There are a few shows like that, but I think this show, as you were saying, it's so scattered all over the place because with social media and everyone just being aware of what everyone is up to. Yeah. It's easy to just do your own thing and have your own route and like be aware of other stuff happening, but not necessarily like immerse yourself within it because you just know that it's happening.

2:51:22But this show kind of like stopped time and it felt like everyone had to watch it. And it came out in, what was it? 20, 2012, the first season.

2:51:32Bill Simmons:No, it was later than that. It was like 20, yeah, 20, I'm going to say. It was a defining year regardless of when it came out. And every single person that I knew watched it. And we were all, at least for me, the ages of the characters when the first season came out. So it just, it felt like a total, it just took everything over. Now Millie Bobby Brown's a mom. She's a mom. She's a wife. She's old. They're all old. It's going to be, that's a whole other topic, but interesting how they kind of transferred, how these people have grown up and how many years have been between the last season releasing and then this season.

2:52:07So last season came out my junior year of high school and now I'm a junior in college.

2:52:11Bill Simmons:Why did it take so long? Because of COVID and... COVID setbacks. The CGI for this show is also just out of control. Yeah. And the writer's strike. Like, there were just a lot of things that happened that set it back. And I'm honestly okay with it because I would rather them do it to the best of their ability as perfectly as they can than just try and pump it out for no reason. I think it also, it taking so long to come out has made people, like, really excited for it and has given you time to rewatch all of them. Yeah, people keep rewatching them. Yeah. Because it's a nostalgic, like, for me, it's my first real nostalgic thing.

2:52:44It's like I watched this show for the first time when I was like 12 years old. And now I'm 20. And I'm rewatching all of these episodes and these seasons and remembering things. And it's the nostalgia of it that really gets people, I think.

2:52:57Bill Simmons:It was even a show you and your brother agreed on. Oh, yeah. Everyone I know, though, everyone has an experience where they're like, I remember when I first watched Stranger Things. I remember this happening in my life, this thing happening. It was just a cultural thing, Stranger Things. So is there a fear that this isn't going to match up to whatever the hype is? No, I don't think so. Okay. I usually worry about that in terms of shows that have so much hype around them. I think this season is going to be phenomenal. I have no fears about it whatsoever. So I somehow never watched it. I know. I only saw bits and pieces from when you and Ben were watching it.

2:53:33But you're aware of the cultural stigma that surrounds it.

2:53:37Bill Simmons:I'm aware of all the stuff that the show bred. I don't actually know what happens. I know it's set in the past. I know it's an homage to all the movies that I loved when I was in the 80s. Yeah. And Seven has superpowers or something. It's Eleven. Nice try. Eleven. So Eleven. Seven's a different character. Who's Seven? Seven got killed off in season one. You don't really know the other numbers. Eleven's the goat. All right. So where do we leave off with Eleven? Eleven is Jason Tatum of Stranger Things World. Well, season four was this whole other... This show is so confusing to explain to someone that hasn't watched it.

2:54:16So I don't even feel like I can attempt at doing that for you.

2:54:19Bill Simmons:Okay. Do it in 20 seconds. Okay. Can you do it in 20 seconds? I'm going to try. It's a big test. Eleven is a part of this company that is basically trying to breed people to have superpowers so that they can use them to fight other countries in war and combat and things like that. Okay. So she's a production of this evil hospital. She escapes into the woods and ends up like finding her friends that are the Stranger Things cast. So she's like escapes from the hospital and within all four seasons, they're trying to get her back. So that's like a different subplot. That was 20 seconds. But that's not the whole show.

2:54:57There's so many different subplots. But in season four, it kind of comes to fruition that the number one person who started this entire, like, Elle was the one who broke the world and basically made it possible for us to enter a whole new dimension, which is the upside down.

2:55:16Bill Simmons:Yeah. Upside down. And she sent one of her other people from, like, the hospital, number one, into the upside down, and he became a demon that was the king of the upside down and has now come back for revenge. Oh. So that's the whole different subplot, which is the main part of the show. But then in season one, Will, one of the characters, one of the little boys gets abducted. So that's kind of how it all starts out. And then Eleven comes along and Will is always kind of like a part of this upside down world because he was abducted and then possessed by the upside down demons. That's like the dumbest way I can try and explain a really complicated show to you.

2:55:54No, I think I followed it. You got the gist? But this is it.

2:55:57Bill Simmons:So it's going to end with like Eleven saves the world and then the show ends. Right. There's a lot of predictions and like speculation as to what's going to happen this season because we've had some pretty pivotal characters die. Beloved characters, you could say, but not any characters that were like there from the beginning. Yeah. There's always like a new character that's introduced at the beginning of the season. Like season three, it was Bob who was Will's stepdad and Joyce's new like boyfriend who becomes like a really lovable father figure character. And then he gets murdered at the end.

2:56:27It's just devastating. and then this last season Eddie Munson who's kind of like the leader of this group that they're in the Hellfire Club which the whole show is based off of Dungeons and Dragons like that was the premise yeah

2:56:40Bill Simmons:I never liked it in the 80s I'm not a Dungeons and Dragons girl myself but Eddie was kind of like the ringleader freak of the high school and he ends up being a good guy and then sacrificing himself for the kids but he was the big loss of the last season so this season people because it's the last season have been speculating who's gonna die It's a lot of... And they keep it under wraps. Like they don't leak it. Nobody has... No one knows anything. Okay. It's like a Taylor Swift situation where it's like there's no teasers. There's no... It can't be known. Like everything is kept super under the wraps.

2:57:13But there's a lot of theories floating around. Eleven's going to die potentially because she's going to have to die in order to save the rest of them. But there's a few pretty significant people in there that I will be absolutely devastated if they die.

2:57:27Bill Simmons:So what is the number one reason why this show resonated like it did? Because it's well done? Because people love the characters? Because of the mystery of it? Like, what is it? I think that... And people, at least for myself, like I have always loved the 80s. Yeah. It's the entire vibe of the show itself. It makes you feel nostalgic for something that you never even experienced. And I know that you lived through that period. Mom lived through that period. Like all these people that I know and love and looked up to live through this period. And I think that this show does the best job at like depicting what it was like.

2:58:01And it almost makes you wish that you could have been living back in this time. Because it was. It really was. I think the outfits, the fashion, the vibe, that's a whole facet of why this show is so popular and why I like to watch it. Outside of that, I'm not a science fiction person, but the way that they've done this show and every single season has so many different layers. And it's just like, it's so obvious that they had thought so far in advance from the very beginning and all of these pieces coming together. That's what people really like. It's more than just well done, but it's like so well written.

2:58:35it feels like TV doesn't get written this well in this day and age.

2:58:40Bill Simmons:Well, one of your big passions is how the TV shows always seem to miss stuff that would resonate with your generation. They always get like three things wrong. Right. And I also like to feel like I'm much dumber than the people that are writing the show. If I can guess exactly what's going to happen way before it happens, it doesn't feel like rewarding. Or maybe you're really smart. Maybe you should be writing shows. But this show, like, you never know what's going to happen. It just feels like this force that's so much bigger than you. As cringe as that sounds, it's like it really, it does withhold like such a power that really no other media or TV or movie has ever done for me, unless it was some old stuff that was produced like 20 years ago.

2:59:23Bill Simmons:So why did Summer I Turn Pretty hit like it did? What was the difference? I think that had immediate nostalgia because for me, I read those books when I was in middle school. And I think a lot of girls my age also did. Those were kind of like the rite of passage books that you read throughout middle school. So just to see something like that on a big screen was important. I also think using like all current music, like Gracie Abrams, Taylor Swift, all these songs that we kind of grew up on, that was super helpful for watching the show. But I think it was just an easy watch that it came out as summer was ending.

2:59:56So getting to watch it through like the fall period, especially for me, like playing soccer and needing like kind of longing for the summer and like relaxing times. They just did a good job at making it an easy watch. And they also made the characters super lovable or hateable. Like people are still very much in love with Conrad on TikTok, like consistently talking about...

3:00:17Bill Simmons:Did Conrad win or lose? I can't remember. It was a love triangle, right? Well, they... I'm so happy for him. Amazon made it so that there's a movie that has to come out in a few months to finish the whole story. They left us off on kind of like a cliffhanger. We're assuming we know what happens, but we don't exactly know. But anyway, like the parasocial relationship that people have created with Conrad is like a whole reason as to why like it was so successful. And then everyone - What did they like about Conrad? Hates Jeremiah so much. Cause he's a yearner. That's just what people say on TikTok.

3:00:47Like you're a yearner. Like Jeff Buckley's music is like yearning music and like women long for like men that just yearn for other women. Because in this day and age, it's like, boys are kind of not like very charming or like, do you know what I'm saying? Like they're, boys aren't trying to court girls anymore. And I think Conrad, like trying to court belly, like really hit with people.

3:01:11Bill Simmons:You miss the yearning and the courting. Well, that's just what like TikTok is kind of going off of. They like a man who's like willing to like put all of everything aside and just be like, I love this girl and I'm going to do everything for her. And that's what resonated, I think, at least with my friends that still love Conrad. I think it's great that Jeff Buckley still matters. Oh, yeah. Especially because we have a new documentary for the Music Box series about Jeff Buckley next month. He's had a huge resurgence. Well, it's funny how the TV shows can revive some of these people. Yeah. Yeah.

3:01:42Bill Simmons:So, Summer I Turned Pretty got to the point where you were... What time was it coming on in Boston time? Midnight. So you were staying up till midnight. Oh, yeah. And I also like when TV shows space things out weekly. So you have to wait for it and you get to have the anticipation. I think that was a whole other thing similar to Stranger Things where it's like everyone is watching this show and everyone's waiting and in the week before everyone's throwing in their predictions or like just bonding over it on like a global matter. Exactly. Like White Lotus too. Yeah, but why don't the streamers, everybody feels this way and yet like Netflix is dropping all the Stranger Things episodes at once, right?

3:02:18Bill Simmons:No, they're dropping the first batch on Thanksgiving. I think the first four episodes and then you have to wait until Christmas and then New Year's. But wouldn't it be better off doing two and then just one a week to like, to basically like suck you guys in for the rest of 2025? They think they're more important than these other shows, which I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that I think they are too. Yeah, obviously it works. And they're important enough to be able to like, here's four episodes and then you have to wait a month for the next four. And I'm willing to do that. I think that they want to be like bigger than just dropping.

3:02:50Bill Simmons:But Summer I Turn Pretty didn't do that, right? Because that show's not nearly as good as Stranger Things. That's the type of show that has to be released weekly because you're going to lose interest if it's not. Like there were so many filler episodes in there where it's like, I don't know what just happened for the last hour, but it feels like nothing that we needed to happen happened. So it's like, oh, hopefully the next week will be better, but at least it's only seven days until we get to find out. Well, I mean, that dates back to the 80s and 90s and the 90210 type shows that were like that.

3:03:20Bill Simmons:they always should have been like 10 episodes a year. And they would, like 90210 was 32 episodes for a couple of years. Yeah, that's a lot. So they would have like all-time filler episodes. Some might turn pretty, it seems like, what is it, like 13? It's not enough episodes to have as many filler episodes as it did. Like I would leave a week of show and being like this, that was just pointless. A wasted hour of my life. But I'm going to come back again next week because I need to know what happens. But Tell Me Lies was, that one hit. Whole different spectrum. Like I put these shows in different like boxes in my brain where it's like Summer I Turned Pretty is just nostalgic, easy to watch, a good watch.

3:03:58Every episode might not necessarily be good, but it's easy for background noise. And it's a nice thing to be able to like relate with others on the internet about and just be like, I'm going to open my for you page and everything is going to be about this one scene from the show last night. And we all get to laugh about it together. I just like having the sense of community that that show brought.

3:04:17Bill Simmons:Tell Me Lies was like the dangerous show that people 16 and under shouldn't be watching, but they have to watch. Yeah. It's like a, it's a total mind screw up. Like watching that show, I have to like prepare myself to go into every episode because it feels like you are like watching something really dark and like being manipulated. Are there any good people in that show? What do you mean when you say good people? Like good person? Yeah. There's not a single good person. Okay. Literally not a single one, but it's, it's a great show. It's exactly like Euphoria in the way that these characters are so complicated and so fucked up that you would just never even imagine that a person could be capable of doing the things that they do.

3:04:58It's a little less drug heavy and kind of like disco. Than Euphoria? I hope so. Glitter outfit situation. but it still has the same effect where it's like a more real life simulation of like this is some really fucked up, manipulated, like really terrible people.

3:05:17Bill Simmons:Euphoria is coming back in there. I think fast forwarding. Yeah. The ages of the people. I'm nervous. The one thing I heard was that I heard Sydney Sweeney's character is going to be an OnlyFans model on the show. No, for real. Yeah? Yeah. That's the only Euphoria scoop I have for you. I'm nervous for that show to come back. I really did love it in the first few seasons we watched it, but it seems like there's so much baggage that has happened and so much time in between that I just can't imagine it being a good season. But you loved I Love LA. I loved I Love LA. And you were literally the audience for it because you're a 20-year-old in LA, which I don't know.

3:05:55Bill Simmons:They renewed it, so that's a good sign. Yeah. What did you like about it? I Love LA was I thought it was just perfect in the way that it made fun of how awful LA people can be. I love LA, not the show. Like, I love LA. LA is great. But you're also smart enough to know who not to like in LA. It just did the most perfect job at showing how ridiculous the whole influencer world can be because it is just insane. Yeah. I loved every single bit and piece of the influencer stuff. The relationships. that lead character has with her boyfriend is just could not be more perfect. Everything about the show just felt like it's all of these like niche things I've picked up on in like my 20 years living here, put into a singular thing and then blown up by 100%.

3:06:45And I think it resonated with a lot of people from LA.

3:06:49Bill Simmons:So you think it became a little bit of a thing? Oh yeah, I saw a lot of stuff of it on the internet. And it's a binge-worthy show too, which is helpful. It's an easy watch. People just like easy watches. It's nice to know that like, if you're going into a show, like Tell Me Lies, it's like I need to prepare myself and this might like give me an emotional, like some emotional turmoil for the rest of the week. Watching I Love LA, it's like I can just easily watch this show and go about the rest of my day and not really have a dark cloud hanging over my head. We should have created a podcast where you recap these shows with my dad as he tried to figure out what was going on.

3:07:25Bill Simmons:I'm like, I love LA. He's unbelievable. Well, I think he would have had an aneurysm if he tried to watch that show. Yeah, he's just conditioned for CBS now. We tried to watch a doc with him over summer. Which one? The Call Her Daddy one. Oh, that's right. And he, I think he had four seizures in his seat. He had to get a lemonade with extra ice just to keep him awake. And then he left. Yeah, he just left. He went in the other room. He's like, I don't like that lady. And he just left. He was only here for four days and he didn't even want to stay with us to watch it. Yeah, I don't really blame him.

3:07:59No.

3:08:00Bill Simmons:It wasn't great. Any other shows before we go? That's it? That's the All-Star team? Who's your favorite influencer right now? I love my Graydon Cutler, Hallie Batchelder combo. I've talked about them before on here. Also like a local Boston resident. I'm always looking out for him whenever I'm on the streets. He's 6 '7", so he shouldn't be that hard to find. But there's some good people out there that I'm really liking right now. My most favorite person is this lady named Natasha. And she is from California. She lives in Long Beach, I think. And she takes like four weed gummies and then tries different restaurants from like different ethnicities in different sorts of like areas of the world.

3:08:43Bill Simmons:Why do the weed gummies? What does that have to do? It makes her hungry? Okay. But she films it through like these glasses that she wears. And it's like you're eating. It's like you're eating. You're watching her eat, but it's from a first-person perspective. When you still love Therapist, but it's on vacation, right? No, Therapist just finished season two. Okay. I mean, I couldn't love that guy more. And his two friends, Julia Mervis and Peyton Perther and Brett Chody, like all the people that surround him, I just would trust with my life. There's no one more that I'd want to be friends with.

3:09:15If anyone was like, you can be friends with these five famous social media people, he's my number one.

3:09:21Bill Simmons:because all these influencers come and go or they get canceled or they turn on each other or they never seem to last longer than like nine months yeah well i was trying to explain to mom the other day like how he came to be and how he gained success and it was literally from him like getting high and then making these little skit videos that people would send in i think his most famous one was like abraham lincoln finding his signature hat but it's just like these little stupid funny videos almost simulated Vine and people just caught on to him and his personality is so great and he just created this entire like kingdom around just his personality and how he is.

3:09:59And he's lovable across the board. Everyone who's been on the pod like loves him. He's buddies with every famous person. Yeah, because he's so likable.

3:10:07Bill Simmons:I want to go on. I haven't been invited. I'm sure he'd like to have you. I would love to go on Therapeutics just to impress you. Would you be able to give some recommendations to the pussies about like things. That's what he calls them. The pussies. You don't like that. Yeah, the therapists. Well, you said that he's tapping into some trend that's happening right now where so many people are in therapy that he's crossed therapy with a podcast and interview thing. And he's somehow solved these three different things at the same time until one pot. The mailbag segment, the life advice, the unsolicited therapy thing.

3:10:42And he's a trustworthy person. And I think it's hard for these influencers to be successful because they're so easy to see through. Yeah. And it's like you're liked for this specific thing. Like maybe you're the crazy party girl and that's your appeal and you can get a certain audience or whatever your niche is. But he's just genuinely like such a likable person and people trust him and just like want to listen to him. And that's why everyone keeps coming back.

3:11:07Bill Simmons:Yeah, you're almost too normal to have a pod. You'd have to have a pod where you were the normal person. I know, and have some crazy guest stars. Girls your age who just like tell stories every week about what they did. And you're kind of the, the calm one. Yeah. Well, we're open for business of that. If we can find those two people. But stranger things, we didn't finish who I think is going to die. I'm just going to throw it out there. Because we got to go. So tell us who's going to die. Give us, give us two predictions. I hope to God Steve Harrington doesn't, but I'm assuming he will. Another big prediction that I saw on the internet was that, um, One or Vecna is going to transfer his powers over to Will, who's one of Eleven's best friends, which is going to make it a more difficult time for him to kill her.

3:11:49I was wondering if that could happen. Yeah.

3:11:50Bill Simmons:Yeah. So that's a potential. Regardless, let's all stream it together. I'm super excited about Stranger Things. Just excited for everything that's coming out. And Tell Me Lies in January. Thursday, I'm going to be watching football after we eat. And you'll be like up in your room watching Stranger Things on your phone. Upstairs, done for the night. And then you fly back. Okay. It'd be great to see you. Zoe Simmons. Great season, by the way. You stayed healthy. Yeah. Congratulations. I tried. It was great. Did good this year. Yeah, it was all right. It was successful. Oh, it was all right. No, no.

3:12:20Bill Simmons:It was good. Yeah. It was a successful year. I'm always happy when you're playing and you stay healthy. Yeah. Those were my two goals. Got two of them. But it was fun watching. Thanks, Dad. Good to see you, Zoe. Happy Thanksgiving. Good to see you. Thanks, guys. Bye. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsberry. and thanks to Chris Ryan and thanks to House. Thanks to my daughter. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. Have a great Thanksgiving. For Ringer 107, we're going to be posting all of our picks on Wednesday night if you want to get some really mediocre. Is anybody going to get hot in the Ringer 107?

3:12:51Bill Simmons:I have no idea. We have five teams all treading water around 500. Will one of them get hot? We're about to find out. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Thanks for supporting the podcast. I will see you on a Sunday night. I don't want to see them when we saw that one said I don't have feelings with them. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Get a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Visit rg-help.com. Call 888-79-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland.

3:13:36Bill Simmons:Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York.