Best NBA Summer Arguments With Zach Lowe

21:21Bill Simmons:Well, I don't think that thing just came out of nowhere right after that. Like, I feel like that was brewing for a couple months. Yeah. At some point it's hanging over his head. I'm just saying like, is Duncan Robinson, whose contract is like partially guaranteed right after the first year? Like, I think he can do a different version of what Malik Beasley did for their team. And I think if anything, the playoffs showed in the regular season, I think they were over-reliant on Malik Beasley and the playoffs, the game changes, the offense gets better, it gets more predatory against it. Now Duncan Robinson is going to get hunted just like Malik Beasley.

21:54I think I'm on like Detroit's better next year. How many games did they win? I don't know. They were in the mid-40s. I think 48. I don't know what the win total will be. I think they're going to be a better team next year.

22:07Bill Simmons:I like the identity they had in the second half of the season in the playoffs with those tough veterans, right? Built around Cade and rebounding and a real attitude. And I don't know. We'll see, I guess. Did they lose any of that? What toughness and rebounding and defense did they lose? I thought Beasley was kind of a badass for them. I really did. I thought he had a real swagger and attitude. And he was the guy they went to over and over again late. And I thought Cade, Cade, it's obviously going to come from Cade over anyone else. The big thing for them last year is that they rejuvenated Cade as, you know, an A-list asset, which I just was, Were you ever like wavering on him?

22:47I was never off Cade Cunningham. I just couldn't believe. I was a little nervous. I could not believe, and I said this often, how quickly people went on the, well, you know, he doesn't get to the line. He doesn't get to the rim. He doesn't finish well at the rim. Like he's going to be, it reminded me of the dialogue, which turned out to be kind of right on like, I remember Andrew Wiggins' rookie year. I think it was 538 ran a piece about like statistically he's one of the worst number one picks of all time as a rookie and like this doesn't project well for him and I was like wow it seems like kind of premature and it turned out like he is not a great number one pick it felt like the K dialogue was starting to trend that way and I was like I just I like I watched this guy play and he's got something he's got the sort of in-between game and the vision and the strength that you need and like put some real guys around them.

23:37But we're getting off topic with Detroit and Troy Weaver.

23:40Bill Simmons:I never gave up on him. I got worried. But I always look at those situations where you think, and this happens in football too. It's the situation. If the situation is awful, as I've gotten older, I've learned like you have to trust that that's the most important factor if somebody's not looking good. You almost have to value the situation over the talent if the talent is there. Anyway, we got off topic. New Orleans. New Orleans and then just the amount of like collective league-wide almost sorrow about what has happened to the Kings in two years. Like how they went from the feel-good story of the NBA to like nobody even really wants to talk about them.

24:20They're like mediocre and boring and directionless in a way that other teams even are like, man, it's just kind of depressing over there. You know, it's just I don't know.

24:30Bill Simmons:It's funny. They just became the Kings again. Yeah. They weren't the Kings anymore. And it felt like, oh my God, the Kings aren't the Kings anymore. They're actually like a real basketball team. And then that died within 18 months. And just like the word Vivek was said over many dinners and drinks, like that it just, it's still kind of a mess internally. And it just, that, you know, phrases like he can't get out of his own way. He can't help himself. You know, that kind of phraseology came up a lot. Like, because what's been the constant between the Beam team and now and all the crappy teams before the beam team post Maloof, it's the ownership group.

25:07Bill Simmons:When that Halliburton trade happened, I can't remember. Were you apoplectic or you're like, I can kind of see it? Where did you land when it happened? I was surprised. I wouldn't have done it. I remember being on TV with JJ Redick when he called it, it was like franchise mismanagement or something even more stringent than that. And I was like, that feels a little harsh given that Sabonis has a real track record of helping teams win and is a very good player. So I was surprised. And I remember even saying like a year later, it was like, oh, what? This was a win-win trade for both teams. This is a win-win trade.

25:46It's like, it's not. Like, Indiana won the trade. Like, the Kings just didn't lose it as badly as some people thought they were going to lose it. And now it's like, what happened here? Like, how did we get here?

25:58Bill Simmons:I know. I hated it. It was one of the few times I went all in. I'm like, I'm putting this in pen. I hate this. I would not trade Halliburton. I always thought Fox was the one, if you're going to make a move, that would have been the one I did. The Spurs thing, we talked about it a little before Summer League, but they probably have a year here with Fox where you can bring Dylan Harper off the bench. I watched one of his Summer League games. I mean, he can't shoot, but he's just such a crazy athlete. he's just clearly going to be a guy. I don't know if it's going to be year three, year four, like how long it's going to take, but there's going to be a point where it's his team.

26:38Bill Simmons:And you can just see, like, he's one of those guys who's had the ball his whole life. He's not going to be, oh, like Halliburton had that rare ability to just be able to play off people and not have the ball at the time. I don't think Dylan Harper is going to be like that. So they probably have a year here with Fox where they can bring Harper off the bench and be like, we're going to ease you in. maybe there'll be a game where Fox is hurt for a week, you become the guy for a week. But the weird part of it though, is Fox doesn't have the massive extension yet, right? August 2nd, he becomes eligible to sign it, I believe.

27:10And I do expect something will be done shortly. Because they did the wink wink, right?

27:15Bill Simmons:But when they did the trade, it was kind of understood that they would take care of him. Well, I mean, he went out of his way to say there was only one, there was no list. San Antonio was the list. I wanted to be in San Antonio. know, that was the team on my trade demand list. And I, whether it was wink, wink or not, I mean, you don't do trades like that without some understanding of what it's going to be when you, when you hit extension time. Well, your guy, Rich Paul talked about that recently. He talked about, he was bragging about the Brandon Ingram extension. And he was like, we felt like the free agency money wasn't going to be there.

27:46Bill Simmons:We had to get him traded so he could make the money. And by the way, he was right because he had zero chance of making 40 million a year if he was a free agent, Brandon Ingram. So, yeah, with the Fox piece, I'm sure they have the wink-waking extension. I'm sure it's going to happen. But also, do you think he's going to be on that team in two years? Because I don't. Two and a half years? Like three years? There's going to be a moment where they just give the car case to Harper and that's going to be that, because I think he has a chance to be that special. I'm not in a rush to make these kinds of decisions.

28:17Fox and Wemby played five games together last year. I think... You want to see it. Well, not only that, Like I'm like higher on the 2025-26 Spurs than most people are. I think there's a chance for a big, big leap from them. I know they have some shooting issues.

28:32Bill Simmons:Can I join you on that island? It's not an island. Like anyone's welcome. But like I don't know what their odds are over under or any of that. I haven't looked at that stuff. Yeah, maybe an archipelago. Yeah, yeah, there you go. I think there's a chance for a much better. For the very simple reason of those guys barely played together, One of them has the potential to be the best player in the NBA at some point in his career. And I like some of the I like a lot of the moves they made. And, you know, we'll see how much the rookies can actually help. But something is cooking there. And I'm not in a hurry to like I understand the theory of we can win now with Fox.

29:08And then when the young guys are ready, we can flip Fox for stuff that fits when Benyama's timeline more like it's not like Fox is old. Like I'm not in a hurry to make any of these choices.

29:17Bill Simmons:Well, I think it was Eddie Johnson who said this on my podcast about how Sabonis and Fox with the lob stuff where they're both lefties was just weird. And he's like, watch what happens when Fox is with Wemby because he's going to go left and he's throwing to a guy who's right-handed. It's going to be different on those high screens. I was like, all right, that sounds mildly interesting. I'm with you on the Spurs. I've already looked at their over under. Do you want to guess what it is? Because I looked at it after Wemby said, I'm clear, I'm fine, I'm healthy, I'll be ready for the season. What do you think their win total is?

29:55Bill Simmons:41 and a half. 43 and a half. I'm over. There's a lot of people in the Archipelago. I'm not even thinking about it. I'm going over 43 and a half. I know they're young, it's the West, everybody's good except Utah, blah, blah. I'm going over 43 and a half. Me as well. And I think that that's probably this year's Orlando, if you're going to make a – or this year's Detroit. Like the team that just kind of jumps into the high 40s because they have a bunch of young guys and they always can throw dudes out. They also – I kind of like Kelly Olenek. If he's your 10th man, if you have this weird Kelly Olenek, Luke Cornett, you're relying on, like that's – I'd rather have that than Zach Collins.

30:38Oh, there's – Cornett's good. I mean, just flat out good. Olenek has been one of these, like, every team that gets him from Utah to Toronto to now San Antonio, I have the same reaction, which is like, I love having a shooting passing big guy around young guards and young wings. I just feel like it helps everybody. And then he just never plays. And so it's just this sort of, like, theoretically helpful ingredient.

31:03Bill Simmons:I like the idea with him and Wemby. I do, too. I like the idea of Kelly Olenek. Like that's, it's just an idea until it becomes not a reality. One of the things I love about them, incredible trade machine team. They have all different types of tradable contracts. You compare them together. They have a bunch of cool picks. And, you know, that's one of those, when we get to December, January, February, that's one of those teams. If they're good, they start out like 20 and 12 and Wemby looks like he's an MVP candidate. That's a team that could shift pretty quickly. Let's take a break and then we have some other stuff to hit.

31:37Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 as a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group Incorporated.

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32:50All right.

32:51Bill Simmons:So we have more tales from summer league stuff. The biggest thing that I think became a basketball argument was everything the Clippers did. Let's go. Let's do that, and then we can hit some summer league stuff later. I was less excited about it than others, while also admitting that everything they did was just cost-effective, low-risk. You have moves everywhere. You're just adding contracts that you could easily swap out or trade or package together if anything weird happens. Everybody's made jokes about how old this team is, how they put together the 2017 All-Star Game. there's a million ways this could go.

33:33Bill Simmons:I'll start here. They were post all-star. They were fourth in net rating. I think they should have beaten Denver in five or six. And they didn't because of what happened in game one and what happened in game four, especially. But I think they were, I don't know if they were better than Denver, but they easily could have taken that series and it didn't go their way. And a couple of plays happened, but they were right there with the team that then went seven against OKC. You can make a case. They were one of the four best teams in the league last year. That's the most clippery thing ever is to give them a trophy for almost beating the team that almost beat Oklahoma City.

34:07Bill Simmons:That's the banner that's going up. We almost beat the team that almost beat OKC. They're putting that up in the arena. Game one. Yeah, they blew it. Game four, Aaron Gordon. You were there. Like, all cool. Denver won another game. Yeah, they were the champs. But then they had a game to win the whole series in Denver, and they shit the bed so badly that it's just like it's a black mark on the entire season. I'm sorry. And that's my bigger picture point. We could talk about, oh, yeah, they're better. They're deeper. There's still a team that's built around James Harden. And I don't know if you're a Clipper fan, if you work for the Clippers, if you coach the Clippers, if you're the GM of the Clippers, if you own the Clippers.

34:48Bill Simmons:I don't know how you fall asleep at night feeling great about that after what happened in game seven and what's happened over the course of his entire career. I actually went back and watched because I was like, I feel like that was so bad. I need to maybe I'm maybe enough time has passed that I'm misremembering something and maybe it wasn't that bad. It was that bad. He was so bad. He wasn't he was doing the thing where he doesn't look at the rim at all. you knew immediately this segment could be recorded in five different seasons when I'm dead they'll just CGI it he was so bad that I don't know how like you're reading these stories about oh yeah he was recruiting Bradley Beal for a half hour it's like what was the recruiting pitch hey we had a really good thing last year could you do me a favor and not watch game seven can you watch like game five have uh hey and brad and bradley beal's like hey what happened in game seven it's like i don't know denver just caught like this is a team built around james harden and fundamentally you cannot win four playoff rounds with james harden how old is he now 36 and he's shown us who he is year after year for his entire career and i just i can't get excited about it i'm sorry well it's also built around kawaii leonard and four playoff rounds is a lot for a player who has battled injuries for his entire Clippers tenure.

36:15And he had a great last, last second half, whatever, 50 games of last season.

36:21Bill Simmons:When you say battled injuries, do you mean he played 266 games in six years and 37 last year? Is that, is that bad? Is that battling or is that drowning? He's it's, it's a toe to toe battle between Kawhi and the injuries. It's, it's, it's, it's neck and neck. Look, I'll just, let me just make a couple of cases for the Clippers. Okay. number one I don't think anyone with the Clippers has any like illusions about what they are right now like I think they I think they probably think we are a really really good team that slots in fourth in the west at best and if you're if you're talking about everyone's healthy let's go it's Oklahoma City Denver Houston and then maybe the Clippers probably the Clippers whatever word you want to use.

37:08Bill Simmons:But I think for a regular season, I think you can make a case they could slot in in the top three because of the depth and the fact that even if these guys aren't going to play reliably, they still have so many guys, they might have the depth to be good. And I'm talking to, like, you were the president of the Clippers are the second best team in the West Island for the last 40 games of last year. That was your call. Yeah, and you know what happened? We had a hurricane. Hurricane and hard and hit the island. And I had no electricity for a month and a half. Out, go. Here are the rotation players that they, even semi-rotation players that are gone from last year's team.

37:49Okay.

37:50Bill Simmons:No, go ahead. Do it. I'm with you. Go. Do your thing. Ben Simmons. Not even signed yet. What was your favorite moment of Ben Simmons' Clippers tenure? The one day where everybody talked themselves into thinking that maybe this is the time he went to the rim one time. My favorite was I was at the game with Mike Toland and we were joking about how when he crossed the big circle logo at midcourt, it became like an electric fence for him where he had to get rid of the ball before he got to the three point line. And I was I nicknamed him the new logo because the logo like triggered. It didn't matter who it was or whether the person was open.

38:27Bill Simmons:He had to pass it. He wanted to know he did not want to have the ball within 25 feet of the basket. And I think it might be one of the reasons he's not signed yet. But yeah, out goes Ben Simmons, Norm Powell, Amir Coffey, Drew Eubanks, Jordan Miller. In comes Brooke Lopez, Bradley Beal, John Collins, Chris Paul. They're undeniably like better than the team that was last year. They have 11 guys who can really play. They're going to need all 11 to get through the regular season. And I think the idea of the team is like, look, we know the issues with our top two guys. Harden's playing big games, Kawhi's availability, etc.

39:00We know how good those other three teams are. all we can do with the resources that we have and the money we've committed to these two older veterans at the center of our team is put ourselves in the best position possible to pounce. If the matchups break right, if a team takes an injury that's in the top three, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then maybe we're in the conference finals again. And once they're there, that's all they can do. I don't think they're going into the season like, oh yeah, we hit it out of the park. We're a championship favorite. I think they know exactly what they are.

39:27Bill Simmons:Over under on Fandul is 49 and a half. that seems about right honestly I'm not against any of the moves on paper except one which we'll get to in a second the Collins one I just think they had they weren't going to give Norm Powell an extension and I think he was going to get really sour and I think they were worried about chemistry and happiness with that right so you flip him into Collins who hasn't been on a good team since 1995 oh stop no I'm just saying like he's like It's been a while. He's in a contract year, and he's on his first good team since that one Hawks team that made a run. It's funny.

40:07Bill Simmons:He's become a weirdly polarizing player because there's some really good nerd arguments for him. You and I very much disagree on John Collins. You're out. Not out. Just the highlight of his career was that Philly series. He was good in that Philly series. I thought he felt like he was becoming a real playoff guy. and then if my memory serves me correct they then played Miami and he was abysmal and you know I just think with what they have with Zubats and Kawhi who I think Kawhi is a four at this point in his career you can play him at the three but I just think he's a four and you're putting Collins with Zubats and Kawhi that doesn't make sense to me in the way basketball is played in 2025 but I do think for the versus Powell who I think they had a lot of guards.

40:57Bill Simmons:They were worried about him being unhappy. The trade makes sense. It's an expiring. They can flip it. I'm down with the trade. I'm not down with John Collins being a huge part of a team that wins four straight playoff rounds. Where I get off the bus is with Beal. I still am waiting. I've been waiting all summer. I'm waiting for somebody to explain what actually happened with him in Phoenix. Because even my friend Eddie Johnson, I tweeted something. We went back and forth on Twitter. And every time we do that, then somebody will aggregate it like we're mad at each other like eddie's my friend um but eddie's like no no he was good here he was everybody liked him here and he he he was a good son it just didn't work out it's like what does that mean because i saw the sons in person and the entire team looked miserable including bradley beal uh nobody was happy with how he played the entire time he was there part of the issue seemed to be that he didn't like being a role player who didn't have the ball all the time now he's going to be a role player in the clippers and i just don't understand why people think this is going to be an awesome situation with him and the Clippers.

42:00Bill Simmons:I don't get it. So explain it to me. Why is he going to be happier than he was with Phoenix? Well, they got him for cheap, right? So it's a difference between$50 million and$5 million. That's kind of a big deal. And he did average like 17 a game and shot it well and can be a secondary ball handler. And I think if you're asking him to do that on a team where he's whatever in the hierarchy and not part of a big three, and he maybe he comes off the bench or that they're talking like he's going to start, I'm not convinced that that they're talking like they're going to rely on him and he's going to have the ball a lot.

42:35I would not rely on him to have the ball too. I mean, I would rely on him to have the ball in this sense, harden Zubats, pick and roll, bend the defense, kick to Bradley Beal, attack a closeout, or take a second screen from Zubats. And when the, when the defense is already moving and that's, that's cool. Like I don't, I don't, that there's any idea that we're like, all right, give the ball to Brad Beal and get out of the way. I don't think that's going to be part of the offense for the Clippers unless people are injured or there's just a whole bench mob in the game. I was like, what's the opportunity cost for them?

43:04They got him for essentially nothing in NBA terms. He's still a 17-point-a-game score, still shot 40 % on threes, still can handle the ball. And look, I think you're right about Phoenix. There was just a malaise over the whole team. I think his effort level wasn't good enough, not nearly good enough. And it's going to have to be better, obviously, on a team.

43:23Bill Simmons:Why wasn't it good enough? Nobody's been able to explain that part. They changed the coach every year. He knew he was going to play with Durant and Booker. And he knew he wasn't. When he gets traded, he waves his no trade clause to go to Phoenix, a team that already had Kevin Durant and Devin Booker. What did he think was going to happen with the shots and the usage rate? Did he think it was going to be awesome for him? Those guys averaged like 60 points a game in the playoffs. What did he think was going to happen? I would hope that he understood he'd be the third option. But I will say this.

43:52You just got through saying about Cade, like, you always got to remember that the circumstances really matter. Like, they do change the coach every year in Phoenix. They've kind of become a punchline for their spending, which focused on Bradley Beal, the sort of ridicule that he took. And, like, you're the body language doctor. How was Kevin Durant's body language from, like, you know, game 10 on last season? The whole team just seemed like checked out. But why did that happen?

44:20Bill Simmons:This is my point, though. I still don't understand what happened in Phoenix and why that team was so unhappy for two years, right? And why they fell as short as they did. And then, you know, it's like, no, no, it was good with Durant. It was great. We're sending him off. Wasn't his fault. Wasn't Devin Booker's fault. Here's 75 million a year, even though we won 35 games with you last year. And it wasn't Bradley Beal's fault either. He was a great son. Well, whose fault was it? Because that was the unhappiest team all of us watched last year. And I don't know if you're carving up the blame pie.

44:55Bill Simmons:Who has the biggest slice in the blame pie? I still can't figure it out. The rest of the roster. There was more stuff going on behind the scenes than we're finding out about. And I'm still waiting for like the now they tell us story and nobody wrote it. But no, I mean, there's got to be something somebody wrote that was interesting. They all clearly the closest thing was the whole very weird like Bud telling Devin Booker, hey, man, you got to like talk less in huddles like that. That was that was a weird one. But I'm not sure that can break a team like that. Maybe they just never recovered from just getting absolutely humiliated by Minnesota in the first round of the playoffs two seasons ago in a sweep in which that ended with Bradley Beal just like falling over and losing the ball three times in the last six minutes.

45:42Bill Simmons:Bradley Beal was so bad in that end of that playoff series. And it's one of those things that we just, the time passes and you just kind of forget. We've never really seen Bradley Beal except for the, what was that, the 2017 Wizards, which I thought, even though he didn't, I think he had some up and down shooting stuff, I felt like he really competed. I don't see a guy that competes in the same way anymore. And to just expect him to turn that on because he's in a contract here, that's the other piece of this. So Bradley Beal is somehow going to make more money out of this. And Dame Lillard, same thing for different reasons.

46:19Bill Simmons:And I feel bad for Dame, but Dame somehow tore his Achilles and somehow made more money out of it. The league is in this weird situation where they have the second apron that penalizes everybody and penalizes all these smart teams. And if you draft well and you sign well, but then it has this other mechanism where you can kind of either get hurt or tank your situation or just not play well. And it can somehow work out. We will make more money. Cause the part of the narrative was, well, Bradley Beal does well in the Clippers. He'll be the biggest free agent a year from now. It's like, he was already making 53 million a year.

46:51Bill Simmons:That wasn't enough incentive for him. And that's somebody I'd want to bet on. I mean, am I being a dick? Like I feel like I'm in the minority on this. Who were the Clippers getting with a$5.5 million salary slot that's better than Bradley Beal? Nobody. He was 17 points a game, 39 % threes. But I would be really worried about... So that's it. I have this chemistry thing where I already have the whatever, the Harden just never knowing whether I can trust him in a game. I have Beal where I have no idea. He wasn't happy as a relegated role player in Phoenix, but now he's going to be happy with that.

47:27Bill Simmons:I don't know whether I can trust Kawhi. It's a team that now has a clear two-year window, right? And I can't wait to talk about that piece of it. You're bringing CP in basically ceremonial. He'll play 40 games during the regular season. He might have a playoff moment. But I would just have real concerns about what happened to Beal and Phoenix and what that meant because he wasn't happy that last year in Washington either. We haven't seen the guy be happy in the 2020s. And meanwhile, he's been making crazy money. I just, I don't get it. So I need it explained to me. And on top of it, like his agent and the son's, you know, president or whatever, they're father and son.

48:10Bill Simmons:I'm aware. And the best you could do is, oh, Bradley cut the exact amount of money he's going to get from the Clippers. And it's going to save Matt Ishby all this money. It's like, why didn't he have to give up more money to leave a situation he hated? and if you're Phoenix, why didn't you wait until February to do this? If you're going to buy him out, you're not going to get any relief out of it. The luxury tax, all that shit doesn't kick into February. Why not wait and try to have a staring contest with him? Can I just unleash a mild take right now? Speaking of Phoenix, I'm so ready for it. This reminded me, there are a lot of things we have to ban in NBA discourse.

48:47Like nobody's talking about that guy. We need to ban that. That guy's a problem. Here's what we need to ban. I sat down yesterday and for some goddamn reason, I decided I'm going to watch the entire 11 and a half minute video that the Phoenix Suns just posted inside our draft room. Day one of the draft. No more. No ban them. They should be 45. I kept waiting. Minute eight. Maybe there'll be something interesting that happens in the video. And it's just a bunch of dudes wearing the same ugly ass Suns polo, high fiving about how the guy they wanted might fall to them. And then it's just phone calls where Brian Gregory is like, hey, man, let's come here in Phoenix to work hard.

49:27You want to work hard? And Malawatch being like, yep, I'm going to work hard. All right, let me give you over to Jordan. Jordan's going to say something to you. Enjoy this night with your family. Enjoy this night with your family. Then come here to Phoenix to work hard. Yes, sir. I'm going to come here to Phoenix. Enough. And then there's the whiteboard that's blurred out. Just no more videos of everyone be like, yeah, all right. look at our polos no more has anybody ever not been excited when they drafted somebody in the

49:53Bill Simmons:top 15 where's the draft room footage of the people like oh man yeah where's the draft room footage of the kings calling in the papayana's pick you know and and they have to call that's what i want to see because the sons i believe had to make that pick for the kings i want to see ryan mcdonald on the phone being like yeah they want they want papayana's man i don't i don't know what to tell you. That's who they're telling me to pick Papianis. They don't. The guy from Greece. That's the guy we want. 11 minutes of crap, man. I'm sorry. There's nothing interesting happening in the whole video. Don't watch it.

50:26Bill Simmons:Great rant. Couldn't agree more. So old guy champions, if you think James Harden at age 36 is going to miraculously change who he is in playoff games, old guy champions, the two doppelgangers would be the 98 Bulls and the 2011 Mavericks. In 2011 Mavericks, Dirk was 32, Marion 33, Kid 38, Terry 33, Chandler 28. Peja, forgot he played 18 minutes a game on that team. I don't remember any of the minutes. And then he was 33, and Barea was the youngest guy at 26. The difference is... Well, the difference is the league is much better now. And you're going against this OKC team where basically all the guys in the team are born after Michael Jordan's last Bulls game, except for like Caruso.

51:13I think that that team though is and remains a team that gets brought up the gold standards for, but for this reason of, of like, they're the just stay, just give yourself the puncher's chance as many times as you can as a good and maybe not great team. And maybe one year it all comes into place. And I think that's just, that's the game. The Clippers are playing is like, that's the team.

51:37Bill Simmons:Well, here's the game the Clippers are actually playing. Because if you gave them truth serum. Oh, let's go. Yeah, let's go. Let's do it. If you gave them truth serum and you said, do you think you could actually win the title? Like, come on. You'd be like, all right, we have like a haymaker puncher's chance. But OKC is going to be really hard. But that's what I've been saying this whole podcast. I think that's what they think. But what they've really done here is cleared the books for the summer of 2027. and the Norm Powell piece was a big part of this. He was going to be unhappy if they didn't give him an extension.

52:13Bill Simmons:They didn't want to give him an extension. Well, why? He was almost an all-star last year. Didn't play well in the playoffs. That's not enough of a reason. Balmer is a guy that has always spent and added and paid money, and he's never been afraid of the future. And now this is a team that's clearly, we are on short-term here. We're on two years. Well, why? It's because Giannis is a free agent in the summer of 2027. and I don't, this is like the, you know, there's some, maybe some TV networks that dabble and specialize in this, just throwing out names and teams. I think there's, this is a real thing.

52:49Bill Simmons:I think the Bucs are terrified of it. I think it's a big reason why the Miles Turner thing happened because the Bucs knew they were on a two-year window with Giannis and that is a player option and they're trying to do as much as they can to make it so that if anyone's winking at him, that they'll at least have enough of a foundation to try to keep him. The one thing with Giannis is he's already won the title, right? When you've already won, it's a different level of mentality because now you're weighing, I've already won. I could start and finish my career in Milwaukee. By all accounts, loves Milwaukee.

53:24Bill Simmons:But I think if you're the Clippers, and short-term, you can compete with a puncher's chance for a title. But long-term, you have 20 million on your books in the summer of 27. You just have Zubats, that's it. you can basically build a new team and they're in the best position. Bomber doesn't care about money. Have you been in the practice facility? And their thing is like a fucking palace. Like you go there and you're like, this is a team that spends every possible asset, dollar or whatever to impress the people that play for it. And I think that's their end game is that summer of 2027. Short-term, let's try to win long-term Giannis.

54:03Bill Simmons:And that's how they're thinking. him so um a couple of things lawrence frank does not does not wink subtly he winks like costanza's got the grapefruit pulp in his eye in seinfeld remember the kawaii recruitment when he was just like at toronto games just that and now it might be different with yannis as a player option but like there ain't nothing subtle about how the clippers operate number two they're also in position if if need be to get max cap space a year from now because harden's contract is partially guaranteed. It's a weird thing where he got the player option and they got, I think it's only 13 million out of 40 whatever million guaranteed.

54:41And then they have team options on like a million guys. Bogdanovich team option, Lopez team option, Batum team option. They could clear out $50 million of space from their books without even trying. So they're flexible on a couple of different levels, but sure. I mean, everybody knows the timetable of Giannis' contract. Everybody sees how desperate the Bucs are. and I haven't closed the books. I don't think anybody has closed the books. I'm like, do we know that Giannis is like, okay, I'm done thinking about anything else now? I don't know that.

55:16Bill Simmons:Yeah, but by all accounts, he's fine in Milwaukee, and the team's going to be pretty good. I mean, they actually had a really good offseason when you consider that the second best player on the team who made 50 plus million dollars was going to miss the entire season. And you would have said, this team has no chance to look competitive. The Cole Anthony thing was a big deal. But they got him to be able to get somebody like that for nothing. He's a rotation guy. They kept Trent for nothing. He's a rotation guy. You know, they've added together a team that in a week conference with the best player in the conference at least is now in the game.

55:54Bill Simmons:And I think with more of a puncher's chance than maybe the Clippers have. Interesting. I actually don't disagree with you I went through all the East rosters the other day and I'm like the Bucs are actually a little better than I think they are they have a little more depth and a little more day to day and I do think they can patch together some lineups that I like I don't mind a couple of their young guys they have some shooting already and I agree with you like he's shown us over and over again he would prefer to stay in Milwaukee it actually reminds me of ironically Dame in Portland who would just like walked up and walked back, walked up and walked back.

56:30And like now that he's back is publicly saying like, I kind of, I maybe I shouldn't have ever left. And Giannis kind of reminds me of that. Yeah.

56:40Bill Simmons:You did a good job with Mahoney talking about the, on the pod you did with Mahoney this week about the culture that Dame put in Portland and how he was all in and all in and all in. And I think what changed that was the Scoot Henderson pick and just getting a top three pick and taking a future point guard. And I just think that changed how they thought about it, which is why I brought up San Antonio earlier. Sometimes you can get lucky in the draft and it can just completely change what you thought your plans were for a roster. And in that case, I think, you know, I would have been really interested if he hadn't gotten hurt to see how they would have handled Dame this summer and whether they would have tried to peddle him.

57:23Bill Simmons:because he ended up the second half of the season before he got hurt. I thought he was pretty good. All right, so we're just, we planted our flag on keeping an eye on this Giannis Clippers thing. I'm not saying we invented it, but I wanted to quickly mention, let's take one more break and then I have another thing to throw you here. This episode is brought to you by my old buddy, Paramount Plus. See you Sunday on Paramount Plus. You're streaming home for the NFL and CBS all season long. That's right, football fans. Stream your live local CBS games every NFL Sunday all the way through the AFC Championship game.

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58:31Bill Simmons:Well, that's when PayPal comes in with the assist. Pay in four, no interest, no fees, truly game-changing, subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com slash pay in four. PayPal Inc. NMLS 910457. So one other thing happened since the last time you and I talked basketball. and it's the Miami Heat, the zombie heat. I'm not saying they're in the cornfield starting to eat human beings again, but there were a couple of small things they did over the course of the summer where it's like, I just thought that team was done and maybe should think about trading Bam and just blowing it up and starting over.

59:14Bill Simmons:There's just kind of a roster flexibility slash identity forming. And I didn't know if you were intrigued by it. So are you intrigued by it? You have this, I don't know if you have some telepathy abilities. Like I remember a couple months ago, you said, you know, what teams do you have your eye on is like potentially frisky teams in the off season. I've mentioned one, you were like, that's the one I want to talk about. So tomorrow I'm having, we're doing a pod, the Zach Lowe show. we're going to put the Eastern Conference teams into tiers of teams, which is what I like to do just for fun. And I'm looking at the FanDuel odds.

59:54One, two, three, four. Miami is 10th to win the East. I'm not saying Miami's going to win the East. That's not a conversation. I'm just saying the odds are what they are. Indiana's plus 2 ,300. They're 9th. Then there's a jump all the way to plus 4 ,100. That's Miami. And then plus 4 ,600 is the Raptors. And I keep looking at the teams above Miami, Indiana, Milwaukee, Boston, Philadelphia, that group. And I'm like, I don't think Miami is worse than those teams. Like, I understand that Miami, that all of those teams save Indiana with Halliburton hurt. And maybe even Indiana with Siakam have a player who's much better than anyone on Miami.

1:00:37I don't say Siakam is much better than Miami. He's probably a little better all around. but Boston's still got Jalen Brown. Philly's got whoever is healthy. Milwaukee has an MVP candidate. I kind of think the Heat are in that group. And I was talking to a couple front office guys earlier this morning before we hopped on this podcast, almost trying to get them to talk me out of my Heat optimism. And one of them tried to, one of them kind of shared. I'm not saying this is like a great team, but if you told me the Heat went 45 and 37 and snuck into the sixth seed or whatever, I wouldn't be surprised.

1:01:09I think this is a better team than Vegas is giving them credit for. I bet their over-under is like 38.5 or something like that.

1:01:16Bill Simmons:Yeah, 38.5. It's too low. And I actually think... I know it's insane. I actually think like 48 wins could be in play. With how bad the East is going to be from a star power standpoint. You're just not going against stars night after night. You're going against, like, you might play Philly, there's no Embiid. You're going to play Boston, there's no Tatum. You go on down the line. The East games are just not going to be as hard as they were last year. So literally 20 minutes before we hopped on this podcast, I was talking to an executive on another Eastern Conference team saying, like, am I crazy to think Miami could win, could be like 46 and 36 and be the fifth or sixth seed?

1:02:01Like, am I missing something about the composition of the East? Like, what am I missing? Because I seem to be wildly off on Miami. And he kind of was like, yeah, 46 seems a little much. But I literally just said this to somebody 30 minutes ago. I said 46, you said 48. 48 seems a little high to me. 46? It's 10 games over 500. Like, that's a good team. I don't know if that's a little over my skis, but I'm with you. I don't know what we see.

1:02:26Bill Simmons:Powell in a contract here. We already know he's going to, he's a 19-point game, point-of-game scorer. They have Wiggins for a full year. They have Hero. They have Adebayo. They got Fontecchio, who I just like. I'm sorry. I'm always going to think on the right team that guy can succeed. There's just certain guys, like, on the wrong team. I get it. But on a team where guys know what they're doing, I'm just in on him. Jovic, everybody else likes. I don't like him as much. Like, Rusilo likes him. I like Jovic. I haven't really seen it yet, but I know you're... Of course you like him. He's got the itch.

1:02:59I gotta be welcomed in the Balkans. You've got an itch for the itches. Yeah. Believe me, all the people in Croatia that we visit with when we're there, they know my awards ballot. And if I've shunned the wrong Balkan, I hear about it. uh,

1:03:14Bill Simmons:Hawkeyes, if he ever learns how to shoot, Yaka Shonis, I still feel like is, is gonna, I'm still in, uh, and then they have Highsmith who I've always liked. I don't know. I just don't mind their team. There's a Rozier piece. There's two ways it could go, but good. And one way it can go awful. The two ways it can go good is he's in a contract here. Maybe he comes back, he gets cleared and he's actually good again. This was a guy who was like a 24 point a game score two years ago. they give up a first-round pick for. The second way it could go good for them wouldn't be good for Rozier. What if it turns out he gets suspended for the year?

1:03:53Bill Simmons:Like, does he come off the cap? How does that work? We haven't had that happen before. Does he disappear from the cap? It feels like if anyone would ever luck out from something like this. I was talking to my friend Mike Schur, who hates the heat the most. And I was like, you realize if Rozier gets suspended for a year, the league will somehow figure out a way that that just magically comes off Miami's cap. And he's like, you've ruined my day. I like that you guys are still, the Miami scars are so deep for you. I just want them to die. Yeah, I just want heat culture to just be dead. And it never dies.

1:04:27But the third way it would go, I think the bad version of this

1:04:34Bill Simmons:is that's just a giant 26.6 thing. 26.6 million he's not playing but you also can't trade him because he gets suspended and it's just like this cap albatross for a year is the one bad way this would play out so who knows um i'm penciling him in is out of the rotation when i'm when i'm i think that's fair no no i just just in terms of my projection of the heat because i want to make sure my optimism i want to make sure my optimism is not based on the whatever small percent chance that the terry roger thing totally turns around. I'm not expecting that to happen. It's unbelievable how much of a zero he's been from Miami.

1:05:15It's one of the most under-the-radar shocking from semi-productive slash productive to can't even get on the floor in the playoffs for a team that's losing by 50.

1:05:28Bill Simmons:The off-court stuff I think murdered his season last year. There's no way you can come back from that, especially if you think potentially really bad things are happening. but he was really good on Charlotte. Crunch time scorer. Yeah, he was becoming a guy that you had to start talking about as kind of like what happened with Norm Powell last year where he wasn't an all-star, but you actually had to throw his name into the conversation for it. Anyway, one of the things I like about what they did, and I like the Mitchell signing too. I've always never gave up on that dude, feeling good about my condo on that island.

1:06:07Bill Simmons:but they have a flexible roster for trades, right? Like Powell's still an expiring. Fontecchio's an expiring. Highsmith's an expiring. Wiggins has a player option for next year at 30. It's not bad. It's a situation that looks a little LeBron-y. I'm just going to say it. If we were going to go, all right, somebody came from a time machine and said, in January, February, LeBron James will be traded. And you had to pick a team. I think Miami would be one of the teams I would think about. Okay, two things. And I already, I already, okay, two things. Number one, they're only in the whole one first round pick.

1:06:52And I believe they could trade up to three if they do it right.

1:06:56Bill Simmons:Their 27 pick goes to Charlotte for the aforementioned Terry Rozier disaster trade. um number two i know no one has time to listen to every episode of the zach low show let alone let alone someone as busy as you last week in vegas i i said i did a segment on lebron because everyone's talking about lebron and i said look i've already done all the all the like i've already gone through all the teams everybody's gone through the clevelands the dallas the warriors the knicks and on and on i said the one team i forgot to bring up when i was doing it is like there's actually kind of a heat reunion trade that isn't crazy on paper for either team, if it ever came to that.

1:07:36What I neglected to mention on that podcast and should have blamed the Vegas haze that I was in is it ended very badly. Like there were hard feelings in Miami when he left and the banner in which he left. And Riley doesn't strike me as someone who gets over hard feelings particularly easily. Now winning and a superstar papers over a lot. I don't disagree with you. LeBron's on the Lakers. It's kind of gotten quiet now after it was the talk of Summer League. There doesn't seem to be a clean solution either way. Everyone's saying we should expect him to be on the Lakers. That's my expectation. But I agree with you.

1:08:13On paper, there's a heat trade that is not crazy for either team.

1:08:19Bill Simmons:Wiggins and Powell for unhappy LeBron in January and maybe some sort of pick swap and maybe that's all it is. as crazy as that sounds. I think for the Lakers, Ware has got to be in it. Like, just because I've gone out of my way to say I've got to get a rim runner that can pair with Luka, blah, blah, blah. And I'm trading arguably the greatest player of all time. I got to hit the trade well. And I think he'd be the piece that they'd have to get. Well, the only thing, if there would be real urgency to trade him, you know, he would have to start acting passive aggressively. and we've just never seen him do that over the course of his career.

1:08:59I'm just going to let that hang in the air there.

1:09:04Bill Simmons:There's just been no evidence over the course of his career that he could use the regular season as a tool to try to make a transaction happen that he would be in favor of. Do you think he wants to do that at the end of his career? I can't think of any examples. But do you think he'd want to taint the last X years of his career with his son on the team by doing that? I'm trying to think. Yeah, I can't really come up with any seasons where that happened. Listen, they waived Clutch client Jordan Goodwin to sign Marcus Smart after he was recruited by Luka Doncic. And I was like, they're now antagonizing the LeBron side.

1:09:42Bill Simmons:This is flat out antagonizing. They can say what they want. But think about the hold that Clutch and LeBron had over the Lakers for those first seven years to the point that they drafted his son who had played 10 minutes a game in college. And now it's gone full circle where it's all Luka, Luka, Luka, Luka, Luka recruited. I mean, you and Mahoney did, I thought you did the perfect breakdown of the Marcus Smart thing. To expect him to guard anyone with speed who's a guard at this point of his career, good luck. He also can't really shoot threes and is the kind of guy that's just a bad fit with a LeBron-Luka team.

1:10:23Bill Simmons:I didn't like the move at all. I would have rather had Jordan Goodwin. Like, for real. I don't think Marcus Smart with Luka and LeBron and Austin Reeves makes sense to me at all. Because I need somebody who can actually guard all of the awesome guards that are in the NBA. And guess what? I still don't have the person after I did this Marcus Smart move. I have the person who can guard bigger dudes who could be like, let's throw him against Giannis. Which, by the way, which matters. it matters because LeBron doesn't want to do that kind of bang and Luca only wants to do it against the guy who's a non-threat they it really can do it but they need someone else and look Marcus Smart is not Marcus Smart he's not a great three-point shooter but he's an oh he's a good enough catch and shoot three-point shooter on open looks which I think he's better you're betting on the up like we know what Jordan Goodwin is I like Jordan Goodwin I said there's a universe where he's better than Marcus Smart next year I think if you're the Lakers you have to bet on you just have to make a big bet that we're a long shot to win the West to to even make it plausible we've got to hit home runs on some things that on the fringes of like this is a chance at that you're never going to hit a Jordan Goodwin home run he just his body seems like it broke down to me I love Marcus Smart he was a great Celtic there's an interesting would they retire his number case that I think if the season if you have a season three years from now that's going terribly you could see it happen um he never won a title with them but was one of the most beloved um role player self-fix ever in my lifetime um i don't that's why did you see that i don't think his body can handle a nine-month season anymore did you see that he said he expects to get booed in boston no never i mean i i saw look i saw it on i saw it on twitter i suspect everything is fake It didn't look fake to me.

1:12:12It didn't look like an AI generated quote. But my reaction was like, dude, it's going to be a standing ovation. It doesn't matter if you're on the Lakers. People are going to go crazy for him when he comes back.

1:12:22Bill Simmons:I have penciled in August 20th. I put in my Apple calendar. You see an Apple calendar? I have a Google calendar. I use the Apple calendar. I penciled August 20th in for the day that I'm going to try to talk myself into DeAndre Ayton on the Lakers. I already did it. I'm done. I did it. I got through it in early July. like you're officially like you've talked yourself into the scenarios. I would say my thesis statement for DeAndre Ayton working is, is just this. I think it's going to go better than expected. That's as far. I think it's going to work as well as the Lakers could reasonably hope it works.

1:12:58I think he's going to have a decent offensive season and a decent defensive season. I think if you're expecting him to be amazing, it's not going to work. I think he's going to roll more. I think he's going to play a little more force. He's an elite mid-range dump shooter. And I think any big man worth his salt who's embarrassed by being bought out by the freaking Blazers and you could spin it like, oh, no, that's what I wanted. I wanted to play on a winning team. Whatever. The Blazers were super excited to clear the way for their young centers. And I want to talk about that before we get off.

1:13:30I think he's good. Luka and LeBron are going to make him look good. He's going to be a productive offensive player the way he was in Phoenix. And I think he's going to be, if your expectations are mocking him as Dominating and I'm a max contract guy and I've done my share of mocking and mocking him for getting to the foul line once every two weeks. That's one of my go-to eight in lines. I think he's going to be better than that. I think he's going to be a serviceable starting center for the Los Angeles Lakers to help their team.

1:13:57Bill Simmons:Did you ever see the clip from the movie Scanners when the guy's head blew up? I don't even know what that movie is. It's a horror movie that came out in the early 80s and it was by David Krodenberg. And it had this famous scene where this guy's head exploded. And it's one of the best special effects scenes of the 70s, 80s, 90s. The guy who's like, and his head explodes. I think it's in play for J.J. Redick this year with Aiton. With the combo of Aiton and passive-aggressive LeBron and Marcus Smart trying to guard point guards, this feels like it could, and Luka trying to play defense. There are pieces of this where you could talk yourself into the Lakers season going really good.

1:14:35Bill Simmons:And there's a case for them to be a three seed. I also think there's cases for J.J. They were just a three seed. I know. And it could totally happen again. I think there's also a case that J.J. Reddick's head could explode in the sideline because of Aiton. When you've watched him play basketball. I have. I see it both ways. I do think, though, this is the type of team that could honestly kill J.J. Reddick. I'll just put it. I'm going DeAndre Aiton, 16-8, solid bounce back season. 16-8. He does get rebounds. You know, it's like Barkley's whole thing about you can't get three rebounds a quarter when he gets mad that like Jaron Jackson has five rebounds a game.

1:15:15Bill Simmons:He does get rebounds. He'll grab them. Luka seems like he's in better shape, but who knows? We'll find out. And the LeBron situation is just going to be really, really weird. They have a lot of expirings and a lot of ways to make the roster better. It seems like Luka is going to sign next month, which I think, you know, nobody's going to be surprised by. I believe that's August 2nd as well. All right, so February 15th, what team is LeBron on? Safe bet is still the Lakers, right? I mean, I haven't heard enough actionable, realistic stuff to go anything but Lakers. If you're telling me Lakers versus field, I'd still probably go Lakers a little bit.

1:16:01But until I hear something, because why would they ever buy him out? I don't think he has it in him to act out the way Jimmy Butler did to get out of his situations. Passive aggressive, maybe, but I think you can live with that. And I don't know that he wants to do that at the end of his career with his son on the team. Even that level, like 2018 Cavs level, eye-rolling, passive aggressive slump shot.

1:16:23Bill Simmons:We've never been in a situation where the player is great as him before, where the focal point of the franchise he's on shifted to another guy. I'm really interested to see where, like, I'm talking like the best players of all time. So what's your answer to the question then? What team's he on February 15th? Dallas? No, because I don't think there's any scenario where the Lakers buy him out. He would have to really, to your point, he would have to really push the envelope in a way that I just think it would be crazy for him to do. Like, he's a role model. People love LeBron. He's going to be a dick to try to get traded.

1:16:54Bill Simmons:He'll do the passive-aggressive stuff, but he's not going to do the outward. He's not going to tank during games. He's never going to do any of that stuff.

1:17:04Bill Simmons:I honestly would say Miami I don't know why it's just like a weird gut feeling it's just and I don't think the Riley stuff yeah it ended awful with them in Miami I don't think this stuff matters he went back to Cleveland after the Comic Sans letter and all the shit that went on if it's the right move for both sides and if Miami can look at it and go holy shit we could actually win the East if we turn Wiggins and whatever else into LeBron. And I don't know. I encourage people, go back, listen to the Zach Lowe show from last week. I talked about it. I was like, hero, bam, LeBron, something. Like it wouldn't be like a terrible Eastern Conference team.

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1:18:57Bill Simmons:Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started. Just go to ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans. I know you may have other things to get to, but there are a couple other summer league things I wanted that are in your wheelhouse much more than mine. A summer league topic that came up quite a bit given Yong Hansen's play is why is there like no buzz about who's going to buy the Portland Trailblazers? So I ask you, you have a lot of ownership sources. You're always good on this stuff. Like why is there there's like even people within the Blazers that I talk to are like, I don't like we haven't heard anything like what's going on.

1:19:41This team is like allegedly in the beginning processes of being for sale. It's an NBA team. What's happening?

1:19:50Bill Simmons:I heard there's a guy and I heard it's going to go over four or the only two things I've heard who's not going over three and a half or four at this point but I think the consensus is it's going to be in the mid threes but I think it goes over four let me ask because there's there's just not a lot of teams available this is it's Portland it's maybe make a power play for New Orleans over, overpay for New Orleans and then move them to Seattle, Vegas. And then other than that, unless, unless the Rhinestorf shock everybody and just sell the team for 7 million, what other team is there? Let me ask you this.

1:20:29I know you're, you can't say who the guy is, if you even know who the guy is, but is it, is it, is it someone who already knows I'm not getting Vegas and I'm not getting Seattle if, and when those things happen? Is it somebody in that pool potentially because that that's that's it i don't think it is okay that wasn't the name i heard that

1:20:49Bill Simmons:i'm not gonna say okay um the vegas one was really fun because there were so many groups for it i was ready for the game of thrones between all the groups and each group had like a famous person in it i was just very excited to see how that was going to play out but now if we're not going to have expansion um you know if somebody hired me as a conciliary for all this stuff i would just be like, just go after New Orleans. That's the move. I know you've talked about it before, but now we've seen him play Summer League. Some time has passed since the draft. What does Conspiracy Bill think of the Yang Hansen pick and the conspiracy theories that it was all a ploy, partly a ploy, let's say, to increase the valuation of the franchise?

1:21:29Bill Simmons:So that was a Summer League combo, right? That the combo of Dame, because the Dame thing was nuts. Like they paid 14 million this year not to play. And I know it's great to have him back, but it's just, I thought the combo of those two things I thought was notable. And the fact that you took Yang Hansen at 16 when you probably could have gotten him in the mid-late 20s, but you were so desperate to get him, you didn't want to fuck around. Conspiracy bill was activated. There's no question. Yeah. Well, I think there's a lot of Chinese money in play. We've just seen it with some of the players we've had in the league.

1:22:07so yeah i i marked it okay what was your other thing no that's it i think i think that between that and strahinia yokich just lighting up summer league all over all over the place the big scary yokich brother appearing everywhere and scaring everybody uh i think oh the other one uh the other one there was a lot of like um late in my summer league visit a lot of like wait what when did paul George get injured again? When did the surgery happen with Paul George? I thought I just saw him walking around a casino somewhere. Why did they announce it now? What's happening with the Paul George injury?

1:22:47And just a lot of like,

1:22:49Bill Simmons:Sixers, what are you going to do? Did the Embiid piece come out that was on ESPN.com when you were in Vegas? It came out the last day I was there. I left that afternoon. I have no comment on the Embiid piece. What does that mean? I just have no comment on it. You did no comment. A representative for Simmons was reached and said, no comment. You had a rant before. You did your little thing. I have my little stupid rant. I'm going to get to you for 40 seconds. I don't understand. So Washington trades for Marcus Smart. and they get, they trade expirings and they trade a 20, 25 second rounder for Marcus Smart, who's making like 20 million and then 20 million the next year.

1:23:42Bill Simmons:But they got a first round pick too, right? And they get Memphis' 2025 first, which at the time seemed like it was going to be in the 20s. And then Memphis fell apart and it ended up being the 18th pick. So then they traded 18 for 21 in two seconds and they took Will Riley. And then they bought out Marcus Smart for$6.8 million. so basically, and we've seen teams do this a bunch, I guess that's the market for a non-lottery first round pick. You're, you're paying whatever is left for the guy in the previous year, but you had the expiring. So that offsets, but then the next year you're paying. So he basically paid$7 million and their second rounder to get the 18th pick in the draft.

1:24:29Bill Simmons:Does that sound like the right price? because this happens all the time. We're like, oh yeah, but they got that pick. It's like, is that the right price for a non-lottery first rounder? And conversely, should they make a rule that teams can just pay whatever they want for somebody else's first rounder? Like just no cap at all. Like if the Lakers wanted to pay$35 million for Memphis's 18th pick, they could just do it. Why do we have a cap on it? Would teams actually pay? What are the values of picks? I just, it got my brain percolating. I don't know if you had any thoughts. So people have studied trades over X amount of years.

1:25:09And like, what is the average financial valuation of a first round pick? Like how much did the Nets just pay for the Nuggets 2032 first round pick, right? Right. More than$7 million and a second round pick for sure. And I think those studies would probably conclude, again, you're hitting me with this off the top of my head, that that's actually kind of a cheap price to pay for the 18th pick, that that's probably a good deal cash-wise for the Wizards.

1:25:36Bill Simmons:Because the guy's making like three and a half, four million a year and it's locked in, has the chance to have upside of to be a real guy. So it's like the four plus the seven that you paid. So it's almost like getting a mid-level free agent. I think just the on average, what do teams pay for a first-round pick? and salary dumps, right? How much dead salary does it take for me to get a lottery protected first round pick? I'm guessing that's a pretty cheap price overall for Washington to get that pick. Your second idea broke my brain a little bit. Obviously there is a cap on the amount of cash in trades that you could use in a calendar at NBA year.

1:26:17You're saying, should that cap just not apply to draft pick only trade? Should we just, and then you just come into a thing like, what is the price for your humiliation as a team? How much do you have to pay me to be able to go to my fans and take the heat of like, yeah, sorry, we just sold the... I know you guys were super excited about all the mock drafts and who we were going to take at 17, and we actually need a player. The Lakers just paid us$75 million. What's the price for your humiliation as a franchise owner? Because it's humiliating. It's humiliating to just, it would be humiliating to go to your fans and be like, yeah, you know, but look, I mean, I'm richer.

1:26:59We're richer. Like the practice facility might be nicer. Yeah.

1:27:04Bill Simmons:But in soccer or as they call it in the, uh, in the European areas, football, um, they have these transfer fees, right? You develop some awesome player. You have like con knipple and he's the rookie of the year in year one. It's like, wow, this guy's the next clay Thompson. And then the Lakers just buy him a year later for a$150 million transfer fee. And people are used to that in soccer. I think the CBA to me, the older I get, the more I stare at how they think about it is all about just checks and balances with the owners against themselves in two ways. One, to make sure that you don't end up becoming like Ishbia.

1:27:44Bill Simmons:Like without the second apron, Ishbia, you're almost saving Ishbia from yourself. It would be like if I fed my dogs at four o 'clock today and I just put all the dog food on the floor, my idiot dog Murph would eat all the dog food, right? If I put 20 pounds of dog food on the floor, he would eat all 20 pounds and then he would have diarrhea for like a week and a half. That's kind of what the second apron is for Matt Ishbia. What's the diarrhea in this metaphor? Is it the stretch? Is it the wave? It's the Bradley Beal trade. Yeah, it's the Bradley Beal, seven pick swaps and 19 second round picks.

1:28:24Bill Simmons:But so it's checks and balances on the one end. And then the other end is that humiliation thing you mentioned, where they don't want to give the smaller market owners either the chance to be humiliated because like, OKC, Jalen Williams, they build him up and then he just leaves because they can't afford what the Lakers or Miami paid. but then you also to put owners in the position where they would just sell off shit. Like they were selling off things in their attic or, you know, their car. Honestly, I didn't hear anything you said after diarrhea. I just, I just, I just lost, I just like lost checks about what, I mean, this is the same thing.

1:29:03Like, hold on.

1:29:04Bill Simmons:I have a news flash. The Clippers have just traded for 20 pounds of Murph's diarrhea. It's going to be fine though. It's solidified. It's hard. Like I remember, um,

1:29:17i remember when they shortened contracts right and like that was the whole argument it's like well we got to save these owners from themselves otherwise it'll be like another seven year 120 million dollar david lee contract like it's like that it's saving the owners from the stepion rule is about saving owners from themselves it's always checks and balances and it gets more and more complicated with every good luck reading some of the fucking pick swaps on real gm like i don't Can someone just tell me who gets what pick? I don't understand. This pick and the second and fourth favorite.

1:29:47Bill Simmons:Do you want my document? I have a document. I created a document that I rely on because it's so confusing. I actually had to write all of it down with all the mac and I'm going to send it to you. It's my little summer gift. Are you upset that when we brought you to the ringer that we didn't do a recruiting trip? We didn't have people calling you like Luka Doncic called Marcus Smart. Should I have done that? Yeah, I think you should have all come to my house and, you know. So we should have done that. Like seven of you should have appeared at my front door with, with food and wine. Like I'm uptight.

1:30:18Bill Simmons:It could have read. Apparently Joe house called Zach Lowe today. And they're on the phone for a half hour talking about how great the ringer is drunk house or sober house drunk house or like drunk, drunk in an ambulance house. Being carried out of a Chinese food restaurant house. Here's my last thing. And then we'll go. The Bleacher Report did that top 100, whatever the player, and Kobe was 11th and everyone went crazy. Yeah, I haven't looked at it. That's the only thing I know about the whole list, by the way, is what you just said. Kobe's 11th.

1:30:56Bill Simmons:It's basically for the ninth spot, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th, I guess. It's Curry, Kobe, Jerry West, and Jokic.

1:31:06Bill Simmons:And people, I'm not going to make the case today. I'm not going to put you in the spot. You've done no research. but it's basically a Curry versus Kobe versus West argument. And I thought it's interesting because people are just so stupid when they talk about the history of the NBA and it drives me crazy. I don't even know why it bothers me. But people are like, Kobe 11th? That's nuts. It's like, okay, we'll make your list. But the Curry versus Kobe versus West is so fascinating to me because it's these three different generations of guards. And I think you could honestly make a case for any of them.

1:31:39Bill Simmons:I think Curry's case, I thought Curry was going to pass Kobe and actually had him proactively in my pyramid ahead of Kobe. But now I'm looking at the end of Curry's career. And I think, I just think that's going to be an awesome historical argument as we get further and further away from it. Because Curry's whole thing about how he's only made four first team All-MBAs. That's like a, like Kobe was first team All-MBA like for freaking a decade and a half it felt like. But Kobe only won one MVP. Curry has the four titles Kobe has five Curry never got to play with anyone like Shaq But he did get to play with Durant So he had the two Durant years But Kobe had the three Shaq years It's just a good battle And I think it's a more interesting argument Than social media gave it credit for Because it's one of them for that ninth spot I feel like I'd have to go down and do it But having done it before Like 11th doesn't feel wrong On its face and if you started to list the 10 guys above him, I bet it would be pretty, like, at the very least, I mean, there's like seven that are just, they have to be.

1:32:46Bill Simmons:I'll give you the list just so people know. Like, MJ, LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, and Wilt. So eight guys that it's not, it's not negotiable. Those eight guys have to be the eight in some order. And by the way, I am glad we've reached a point, Not like you talked about Curry-Kobe being a fun historical argument. For a while, the go-to one was Duncan-Kobe. And I would always be like, I love Kobe. Like it's not like Duncan. Duncan is a top whatever. Like Duncan's above Kobe and has to be. Yeah. And, you know, the older we get, we're going to have to defend that one more and more.

1:33:25Bill Simmons:But we were both there. And it's just, he has to be. I mean, Duncan, you just won 50 plus games if he was on your team. There was no ifs, sends, or buts. He made everyone better. He's now become the most underrated. Him and Hakeem, I think, are the two most underrated historical guys ever. And there's some other guys. Where's Shaq on the list? The Bleach Report list. I think Shaq might have been higher than 11. I can't remember. But Shaq's one that, as the years have passed, I think he's actually, his stuff has kind of gained steam. Yeah. I think Shaq has been largely underrated until the last few years, historically.

1:34:02Like there was just nothing you could do with Shaq. It was just like you could, there was there were, you had no defense for him other than Fallon. Well,

1:34:09Bill Simmons:there's now Yoke edge is in that conversation too. And there's just a really fun Yoke edge, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses. There's this whole tier of centers. That would be fun to argue about it too, but we should, I was thinking we should do a special podcast at one point where we just go Curry versus Kobe versus West and try to figure out what's a frog. Cause West is the most out of all those guys from the first 25 years, or first 30 years, I really think West is the one you could put in a time machine. You could have just put him into basketball now and he would have been completely fine. Even somebody like Russell, who is the greatest winner in the history of the league, they're still like, all right, he was 6 '9", 210 pounds.

1:34:47Bill Simmons:Like I at least want to see, couldn't really shoot. I at least would have wanted to see how dominant he could have been compared to how dominant he was when he played. West is like just fucking plug and play for 80 years in the league. There's nobody like him. you know so anyway we should do that at some point um he's one of my favorite he's one of my what one of my favorite players of all time um i've been i've read every book about jerry west i've got to talk to him on the phone and meet him which is obviously an honor um i think he's just like i i've said before like when they when people do who's the greatest laker of all time it's like well magic kobe kareem should get some love i'm like i don't know like jerry west gets no love in this argument.

1:35:30The guy is like a lifetime Laker. Yeah. All-time great player, great at every part of basketball and made the finals a million times and got the nickname Mr. Clutch despite losing in the finals every goddamn year to the Celtics. He was still so good. Imagine now you lose in the finals. Everyone just makes fun of you. Oh, you got no rings, no rings. That dude was so good that he got the nickname Mr. Clutch losing in the NBA finals every year.

1:35:57Bill Simmons:Right. He won the 69 finals MVP. He had Havlicek inconsolable after he won the 69 title being like, I feel so bad for Jerry West because he like literally did everything. The one thing that he didn't have was that he never won an MVP. But I did this in my book. He should have won the 1970 MVP. It's like actually kind of crazy that he didn't. So I feel like that's an honorary MVP. Can I ask you one? Just it's an unfair follow up to this, but it's another summer league conversation I had with one guy. what's the ceiling on Jokic's all-time ranking?

1:36:35How many more years can he be at the level

1:36:39Bill Simmons:he's been at for the last five, in your opinion? I mean, I don't see why it's not at least five more. So if he does five more, I think he has to be on that magic bird level for connection to the teammates, success every year. Probably needs, you know, it's funny. It's the multiple rings, I guess. But the ring culture thing has become stupid because it's like, guess what? You know what matters? Winning the title. It means you were the best guy when you played in a season. It's the best way we can figure out who the best guy was. I'm sorry, that still matters. So I was listening long overdue, listening to the Steve Nash, LeBron, Mind the Game podcast about when the rings culture thing came up because I wanted to hear I wanted to hear exactly what they said full context they didn't want to hear the soundbite I didn't want to see the aggregation headline I want to hear what they said about ring culture what LeBron said specifically and I texted Steve afterwards and I was like man I wish I wish I had been in the room because I had like a lot of takes that I could have pushed back on to this but like the other thing I said was if Jokic wins one title and that's it he's going to be the ultimate sort of barometer for this because the statistics are going to say he's a top whatever single digit player of all time and how do we talk about him with only one ring is it going to be like a jerry west situation where we just sort of like well he's just that great but if he just gets stuck at one and he's let's say he wins another mvp he's a four-time mvp with one championship and these statistics don't even make any sense.

1:38:19How are we going to talk about him? It's too early for that, but he's going to be an interesting test case. Denver's got a shot to win it all this year, for sure. Probably the next year after that.

1:38:31Bill Simmons:I think the big thing to remember when you talk about this stuff is what era was the guy in and how good was the league, how competitive it was, right? Because when you talk about the bird magic, magic was in the West. They didn't have a lot of competition. because of what happened to the Mavericks, what happened to the Rockets. Any sort of big rival that was coming kind of got vanquished. And they were just in the finals year after year. I sound like a Celtic fan talking about the Lakers, but the Celtics were in that conference against Philly and then Milwaukee and then Detroit. And we probably had five really good teams.

1:39:05Bill Simmons:They kind of split all the rings up, right? Between four teams. I think now when I look at the Jokic thing, I just think it's, I think it would be harder to do that. I think winning a guy winning three rings now in the 2020s with the especially the second apron stuff I think it would be even in a weird way more impressive because everybody's better at putting together a team and we also have more high-end talent right? Giannis has only won one title too LeBron's won he won in 16 and he won in 20 so he's won two in the last 10 years Curry's won uh he's won four, but that, I mean, that team was a historical fluke with what happened with the Durant ad, right?

1:39:51Bill Simmons:Upgrading from Barnes to Durant, we'll never, we'll never say anything like that in our lifetime. And I just wonder, like, is it just, everybody's going to win one or two now going forward unless OKC can figure out how to be dominant, right? That maybe they're a historical fluke. I don't know, but don't you just feel like we have too many good players for somebody in the sports too hard to play these injury variable variables, somebody like I that's another piece like just to stay healthy um almost feels like you need more luck than ever you agree yeah I mean you look at just who's won all the multiple rings in the last look at who's won all the multiple rings in like the last 15 years or whatever it's like whatever teams LeBron on and the Warriors with their their four in the short span of time two of which are with Durant and an all-time one-time only capspike and then you have the Spurs who won you know five over an enormous period of time, which is in its own, you know, there's only one guy that was on.

1:40:49Bill Simmons:And that's a perfect example. They won five and really could have won seven. But you go back and look at some of those teams and those teams just wouldn't have won titles in the league that we have now. You couldn't have won a team. You couldn't win a title in 2003 with Duncan in his prime, but then Robinson in a back brace, super duper young Tony Parker in rumors that they're trying to get Jason Cade instead of him. Manu is not even close to Manu yet. You go through, it's like, how did that team even win the title? It was just the league was way, way, way weaker. And it just was, you know, like people from that era probably pushed back on it, but it just was.

1:41:26Bill Simmons:Like, go look at some of the teams we've had this decade. The teams are, you know, I think way deeper. Even a team like Indiana, which was unconventional, they had real depth. Like, think about that 2012 Celtics team that was playing Michael Pietras and Brandon Bass. I was going to say, Brandon Bass mid-range jumpers. Or the 2010 Celtics that was relying on Rasheed Wallace for 36 minutes in Game 7 of the finals. Nobody had depth like we have now. So I just think it's going to be way harder. Brandon Bass was guarding LeBron in Game 7 of the 2012 conference finals on purpose. I kind of like Brandon Bass.

1:42:07Bill Simmons:He's one of those guys that just, where the league went, He was one of the casualties, that kind of 6 '6", 15-foot kind of post-up game. Didn't have three. Yeah, he was one of those. Anyway, I could talk about this all day. Sacklow, you got a podcast tomorrow. You're breaking down the East. I didn't look. What is the Celtics over under, by the way? I'm nervous. Ooh, 43 and a half. Seems high. That's not out there. Yeah, we're going to break down the East, and we're going to have another. JJ is coming out for Mets Corner. Mets Corner is taking off everyone's favorite baseball segment. You didn't go to David Wright Day, did you?

1:42:49No, I was planning to, and then we had to change our plans. I was going to be at the Sunday game, so it was David Wright weekend. It was going to be the end of David Wright weekend, but I did not end up going. We have tickets. We're going to Old Timers Day in mid-September for sure when they're bringing back. They're doing Team Shea versus Team Citi Field in mid-September. So hopefully the team is still in contention at that point. I'm not sure.

1:43:12Bill Simmons:All right. Thanks to Zach Lowe. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Sunday with another podcast. And then we have a very fun rewatchables on Monday. There's rumors you might be on a rewatchables in August before you disappear. I sent you a list of candidates. That's for sure. All right. Good to see you, Zach Lowe. Have fun, guys.

1:43:38Bill Simmons:When we saw our little ones say I don't have a few years with them

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