Burning NBA Questions and a “Holy Crap, Charlotte!!!” Deep Dive With Zach Lowe

14:16Bill Simmons:You have no chance. You have OKC, you have Denver, you have Minnesota, you have all the teams in the East we mentioned. You're not getting away with like the 2015 Warriors type of, let's go small, we'll play, like those days are over. This Tatum comeback, one thing that I haven't heard anyone talk about that I realized today, the rarity of somebody coming back this late in the season that's also being counted on, on a team that has a chance to make the finals. I went through all the history trying to figure out how many times this has happened. I really could only find Jordan with the baseball comeback in 95.

14:56Bill Simmons:Magic Johnson got hurt in 1981. He hurt his knee. He missed like 40 games. He missed over half the season, his second season. They came back, they lost in round one. And then Wilt Chamberlain only played 12 games in the regular season in the 69-70. Came back for the playoffs in the Willis Reed playoffs. There might've been a couple others, but I really racked my brain. I couldn't, this is really unusual. Like normally how it goes is Jamal Murray getting hurt, missing the rest of a season, coming back and just kind of not being ready in time for the playoffs and the team kind of punting on it. We've never really seen this.

15:31Bill Simmons:And I don't, it's one of the rare things in sports where I have no idea how it plays out. You can give me any set of alternatives for it and I just don't know.

15:40Zach Lowe:I mean, there is, it could not go well and they could decide midway through, like we're actually going to cut your minutes. I don't suspect that's going to happen just because he's so good and he appears to be ready. Yeah, but anything could happen. There was the Jordan broken foot season too, but they weren't a contender that year. Yeah, they were fairly a playoff thing. Most of the time, like I think back to KG in 2009 when there was this will he, won't he thing from that weird knee injury. Even like, remember Jameer Nelson that same year got hurt in the playoffs and Ray Forlsen started and it was like will he, won't he?

16:11Zach Lowe:That's usually what it is. And it is a trickier like reintegration process for those kinds of players. So yeah, this is a weird one.

16:18Bill Simmons:Was Stoudemire, I can't remember, Stoudemire 20 years ago in the 06 Suns. I can't remember if he was lingering for a comeback or not. I'd have to reread seven seconds or less.

16:28Zach Lowe:He did not come back, I don't believe, in the playoffs. He didn't come back, but I didn't know if it was like

16:32Bill Simmons:they had their fingers crossed. Well, we'll see what happens. This is going to be a very interesting Celtics week because they have Milwaukee tomorrow night, and I think they're going to rest everybody and hope Milwaukee has one of those just terrible Milwaukee games like they had today. Charlotte on Wednesday, who we're going to talk about later. We're doing a Charlotte. The deep dive, we did Kawhi last week. We're doing a deep dive on Charlotte this week. Friday, Dallas, Cooper flag homecoming. The entire state of Maine is going to be there. Hopefully he plays. And then I think they play against Sunday.

16:59Bill Simmons:I want to talk about Maxie quick because I was thinking about him today. The best picks after pick 20. He's the 21st pick in 2020. How rare it is to get somebody that you've drafted for yourself who has a chance to be an all-NBA guy, which I think we both think he's probably at least second team. Desmond Bain in that same draft was 30. Brunson was 33 for Dallas, but ended up on the Knicks before he became a guy. Ananobi on Toronto, 23. D. White was 29. Siakam, 27. Then, of course, Jokic, 41. Gobert, 27. Draymond, 35. Middleton, 39. And Butler, 30. Those are all the guys from the last 15 years that after pick 20 became guys.

17:44Bill Simmons:And he has a chance to be a second team all-NBA The Sixers have loved him this whole time, but I just think what he's doing is really special this year. He's going to play the most minutes and the most games at the guard position in 10 years is what he's on pace. The last guy was James Harden, 82 games, 38.1 a game in 2016. Like guards don't do this anymore. Play this many minutes, have this much of a burden, and they kind of rise and follow them. He wasn't very good tonight, but he kind of also kept a minute. and uh i just did did you ever think he would be this guy no no i mean i i think he is going to

18:20Zach Lowe:make an all nb team nba team this year i had him on third team when i just did my my blink test look at the team it's it's it's a crowded field even with the health issues um but i think he should make an all nba team i don't think anyone thought he would be an all nba player that's why he was picked 21st remember they only got him because mike muscala hit a bunch of shots in an oklahoma city game that like flipped a pick to philadelphia's way no i'm saying like after

18:43Bill Simmons:we knew he was good. Oh, I mean... Did you think he was going to be this good? Because there became a point, especially when Harden was still there, it was like, wow, they really hit this maxi pick. He's good. Did you think he was going to be this good?

18:55Zach Lowe:Yeah, I can't say that I expected like 30 a game on good efficiency. Me neither. And I think what proves that that was probably the consensus is he's been in the most improved player conversation for like the last four years. Like every year people are like, again? Like, I guess we got to put him up for this award again.

19:12Bill Simmons:Yeah. Yeah, he's got... Some of the stuff he does is just so unique to him. Like, he's got a floater, basically, from the foul line that he shoots running straight like a shot put. I don't know anybody else who has that shot. The change of speed stuff he has. The teams are so terrified of him now. They get a defensive rebound, and he has the ball in the backcourt. You can see... It's almost like football, like when Tyree kills in motion. You can see everybody kind of scramming around. But he's a really special player. And, you know, they have this Embiid. Embiid now has this oblique injury. too.

19:43Bill Simmons:And Maxie's talked about his frustration with how they're basically these two separate teams. I think people are wondering, is this kind of like a playoff team you don't want to see in the playoffs when they get Paul George back and Embiid? I think the style thing is going to kill them ultimately in a series because I don't think they know who they are. But long term, as a combo, this, we don't call them Vijay Max, Edgecombe and Maxie. It's about as good as it gets for a young combo, I think. They're in great shape. The question for me is, will Darrell Moore be around to see it? Will he be around to see it through?

20:18Bill Simmons:Who knows?

20:19Zach Lowe:I mean, you'd have to, but we're only 60 games in, and they are clinging to the sixth seed. The race for sixth in the East has gotten pretty spicy, and the whole 7-10 thing is a mess, but 60 games in, you'd have to count this season as a success for Philadelphia, I think, given Embiid's been in and out of the lineup and this PG thing. I mean, I don't know how you evaluate who's at fault for all of the the mishaps that continue to befall this franchise. But this is better than I thought there would be after 60 games given it. And they haven't had like great health luck by any stretch.

20:51Bill Simmons:No. What was it? 42 was the over under. It was something like, it was the one that really flummoxed you, me and house. We didn't know what to do. We, you could have said 20 wins either way. Yeah, you're right with Paul George basically missing. When you include the injuries that started the air and the suspension, he's going to miss over half the season. And beats had, three separate injuries. They've gotten more from Edgecombe than they... I really like their role, guys. I think that Bona is a legitimate rotation guy who I could see in a playoff series. Yeah, I don't... If that's the 2-7 matchup, they match up pretty...

21:30Bill Simmons:They're very comfortable against Boston. Even today, all of a sudden that game was six and they just had these little runs against Boston. I think they like going against Jalen. They have guys to throw at him. They like owning it. It's the Boston guards. They did a good job on Pritchard today. But I just think without the size, it's not going to happen. Nick Spurs was the other really interesting one today, which we both watched. It was the first time the Spurs looked like crap in a while. Their win streak then. It was also the first time the Knicks really, you could see the full whatever the blueprint was as they were heading in the trade deadline.

22:06Bill Simmons:Not going to overreact because the Knicks had some bad losses over the last couple of weeks. But did you learn anything from that game?

22:13Zach Lowe:I thought it was, first of all, I guess I learned that Mohamed Diawar is going to shoot like 23s in a game at some point this season. I actually think he's pretty good and he's earned himself a look in their postseason rotation. To me, that game, I mean, a lot of Knicks played well in that game. That was a Josh Hart game. And, you know, they're going to see this strategy over and over again where teams put their centers, their rim protectors on Josh Hart. and just ignore him and put wing players on Cat. And my God, Stephon Castle goes from guarding Cat to guarding Brunson when Cat goes out the game.

22:46Zach Lowe:It's like, this guy is in his second year and this is what he's doing on defense, let alone the offense. That's crazy. But Josh Hart, it was a little funky to start with. And I think the Knicks kind of leaned into, if you're going to ignore Josh Hart, we're actually going to bring him up into the action, even though Wemby's on him. And that means we're bringing Wemby into the action and he's this terrifying alien with a million foot wingspan. And they made the most out of it. Like he scored on the pick and roll. He got open shots for Brunson. He did the Draymond thing, which I think they're going to need to do more if teams treat him like this, which is if you're ignoring me, swing the ball back to me.

23:21Zach Lowe:I'll run a handoff for Mikael Bridges, who hit a three out of this. Landry Sham, I got a good three out of it. And I looked it up on the tracking data. It was the most ball screens Josh Hart has set in any game this season was in this game. and I remember talking to a head coach maybe two months ago whose team was in New York to play the Knicks we sat down and we were having coffee and I was like so who are you going to put your center on blah blah you're going to do the heart thing probably right like that's what the matchups make sense for you are you going to put your center on heart he's like I don't know man Josh Hart feels like he's solved that one and like he's hurt a lot of teams by making open threes and doing Josh Hart things and crashing the glass and I'm kind of afraid to do it and he didn't do it and I think the Knicks won the game But that conversation stuck in my head.

24:05Zach Lowe:It's like, this is how teams think about game planning for the Knicks. It really starts with Towns and Hart. And the Knicks felt like today they hit a gear with that that they had not hit this season.

24:17Bill Simmons:Also helped San Antonio, 26.5 % from three. You could say this about just about any team. But yeah, the San Antonio clunker is a little unsustainable. It's also the way to beat OKC. hey, could you guys miss 75 % of your threes? That would really help us. On the Knicks, Larry David was there. They kept showing him during the game. I'm reasonably sure that was his first or second time back, but I think it was his first time back since the game where he went to the Halliburton. Oh, he was there? The comeback game and the three that went all the way up and down. And he was supposed to stay for two games and flew back after that game.

24:59Bill Simmons:He was so traumatized. So I think it was an emotional return for LD back at MSG. I didn't realize that. Yeah, it was. I mean, the Knicks fans still talk about that Halliburton game. I was talking about the 86 World Series, the Buckner game. It was that traumatic.

25:16Zach Lowe:You're not kidding because I think it's faded recently because we're just in the dog days of the season. But early in the season when I would go to MSG and they would be up like 14 in the fourth quarter and another team would go on like a 5-0 run. You could hear these murmurings in the crowd. I'm like, wait, this is like the eighth game of the season. What are you all so worried? Oh, it's that game. It's in their heads a little bit.

25:38Bill Simmons:One of the most traumatizing losses since we've been alive for the NBA. It's easily in the top five. And we've both watched the game since. It's an absolutely incredible rewatch. All right, I'm going to zip through a couple random dorky NBA things.

25:55Zach Lowe:could I just say before you do I'm just so I'm really happy that I got to share the Kata game with you that's what I was thinking the entire second half there's one one day I'm gonna get to see the sad bill meme if we keep doing these after Celtics games and I really want to see the sad bill meme like in person or on the zoom this I just the whole thing I was thinking no one in the world is gonna be happier that Kata had a career game and we had to spend nine minutes watching a woman get kicked in the face by

26:23Bill Simmons:vj edgecomb because of a review and make us reconsider who should be sitting sideline do we need a protective net i'm prepared for every dumb conversation possible about this that lady was a hero sitting stayed in the seat too no complaints i thought tariko did a great job of being like look at her toughen out she's gonna she's gonna stay the last four minutes even to go to the

26:45Zach Lowe:medical tent even she was sitting there like is this is what is secaucus doing is nobody there Did they all go get a coffee break? Why is this taking eight fucking minutes to resolve this? Can we get on with it? I'm bleeding. Can we get on with the game?

26:58Bill Simmons:I need an ice pack. 45 seconds max for a review. Just tell me that rule doesn't work. We don't know in 45 seconds. Keep the call as stands. Let's move on. All right. The world moves fast. Your work day, even faster. Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot. is your AI assistant for work. Built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and other Microsoft 365 apps you use. Helping you quickly write, analyze, create, and summarize. So you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more at microsoft.com slash m365copilot.

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27:52Bill Simmons:Venmo, Stash Terms, and exclusions apply. Max$100 cashback per month. See terms at Venmo.me slash Stash Terms. Random dorky NBA stuff. Let's go. Have the Thunder officially become villains? Did this happen? Are we here? I'll give you some of the case, and then you tell me. All the picks that they have. Just the fact that they're successful, but then have this war chest too. Sam Presti. how everybody else in the league now is mad at Sam Presti for a variety of reasons, including that he's now anti-tanking when he used to be pro-tanking and whatever. Is your phone ringing yet?

28:29Zach Lowe:Or do you have it on mute? It's off.

28:32Bill Simmons:Okay. All the foul-baiting, especially from SGA, that became a thing this year. The boring commercials, just bad commercials starring the OKC people. I don't think people like that. They stole the team from Seattle, has to be mentioned. Wow, you are all in. And then the coup de grace, Lou Dort, the dirtiest guy in the league. Just hands down. If we're handing that out and if that's in the awards, dirtiest player of the year, Lou Dort wins. That was the dirtiest thing anyone did this year. It was inexcusable. I can't believe he did it. It was a play to try to hurt another player. It wasn't in the flow of a game where somebody's up in the air and they make a mistake.

29:08Bill Simmons:This was like a deliberate, I'm going to try to fuck with Nicole Jokic and maybe hurt him. It's my interpretation of that play. There's no other interpretation.

29:19Zach Lowe:I feel like you're taking it personally almost because it was Jokic. I feel like you felt it was a personal attack on you.

29:25Bill Simmons:Listen, Liam Beer, there's been guys over the years, they crossed the line of, are you actually trying to hurt somebody else who's in this game? And I thought that crossed the line. And I couldn't believe the OKC coach was surprised after. Maybe he didn't see the clip.

29:40Zach Lowe:I did enjoy Mark Dagnall's reaction after the game. Like, I just want to know, is that a flagrant two now? We're doing that every time. it's a flagrant too, because we're doing every time. I just want to know it's a flagrant too. And then that's as far as you go. He wouldn't say anything else about it, but I mean, look, it looks, it doesn't look like a hard hit when you see it on replay, but that's because we're not taking it from like a 260 pound cinder block in real time. It was a, you know, it was a decent hit. I wasn't surprised. They upgraded it to a flagrant too. And it was clearly I'm going out of my way to hit you.

30:16Zach Lowe:This is not a natural running motion. This is not a direction anybody would take. Similar to like, you know, that we've been seeing a lot of other plays like that where just guys just decide I'm going to hit you and he decided I'm going to hit you. Okay, are they villains? I mean, I think villains are great for the NBA. I would love to see them lean in. That's why I brought this up.

30:34Bill Simmons:They kind of need an identity, right? Remember last year we were like, how do we talk about these guys? They just play hard. They all like each other. They're leaning into their inner villain now, which I like. I mean We'll never see Jokic that mad again And this is a guy who got Cheap shotted by one of the Morris brothers And then nailed him in the back And nobody has messed with Jokic since For like what, five years? Has anybody done anything to him since then?

30:59Zach Lowe:I was worried his brothers were going to be at the game And something, like who knows What's going to happen if the Jokic brothers are at the game But the eyes, those eyes Will live on forever I mean that is an all time meme whatever like those eyes I don't look at the first beer after trade deadline with the intensity that Nicole Jokic stared at Lou Dort with like I did big Jalen Williams that was a lusty aggressive stare

31:28Bill Simmons:yeah there's three problems for Dort one is that he saw Jokic sized him up and then pretended he didn't see him then he stepped back into him and then he swung his right foot around to make sure that he got him And there was history from the before earlier in the game with them. And in general, it was a chippy game. And I think one of the lessons from this week, there's real animosity in some of these games now.

31:54Zach Lowe:Oh, that was an intense game from the beginning. Piston Spurs was just like...

32:00Bill Simmons:How about Pistons everybody? Pistons Cavs was also... I thought Friday night was awesome. Piston Cavs was also really chippy and kind of angry. We've kind of moved out of the banana boat era with the league. I feel like there's a lot of animosity now in these games again.

32:22Zach Lowe:I love it. I think we all agree we would like to see more of that. On the Thunder villain thing, I will say some of it is envy, right? Teams are just envious about how well the Thunder have built their team. I will also say when Chris Finch now what are we two months into this gave his they're very frustrating to play against because they get to the line a lot and you can't touch Shea remember that press conference Chris Finch gave and like there was before and after stats about Shea's free throws I heard from so many people around the league being like Chris Finch is a hero we love Chris Finch finally somebody said it somebody said it like so there's something there's something to this it was like the

33:03Bill Simmons:the Stillwater drummer and almost famous when they start going off on Russell Hammond and he's like, finally the truth in the bus or the plane, whatever it was. I like it. I think the Thunder have an identity again. Their fans are going to eat this up. I'm sure this segment will get cut out and put somewhere and I'll be a villain like poor Justin Termini, who's enemy number one in Oklahoma City.

33:26Zach Lowe:Before all their players got hurt, part of being a villain is knowing how goddamn good you are and wanting to crush everybody in front of you. And before all their players got hurt, they played like a team who was like, bring it on. We're going to destroy your soul in this basketball game. And I loved that. That's exactly how you want a champion to approach its potential repeat season.

33:48Bill Simmons:Well, you talked with Legs about this little Case and Wallace mini leap in February, which has been noticeable. I don't know how much is there, big picture, but I've increased the ceiling in the building by a couple stories. Because it's clear to me now they're going to have some tax stuff. They also have to figure out how to pay him. Dort's got the team option next year. And I wonder, is Dort and Caruso and Wallace on this team a year from now? My bet would be no. They'll try to patch the picks that they have and they'll try to save money that and then give the money back to Wallace. But Wallace, give me the best statistical season of his career.

34:30Bill Simmons:Give me a guess.

34:32Zach Lowe:18 and 5, maybe. Something like that.

34:35Bill Simmons:Do you think that's the best?

34:36Zach Lowe:22 and 5? I don't know. I mean, it just depends where he goes, right? Like, it depends what team he's on.

34:43Bill Simmons:See, I was ready to get to like 22, 7 and 5. You might be right.

34:47Zach Lowe:You're better at projecting. You're more adventurous and therefore better.

34:51Bill Simmons:I just wonder how much is there. Could he be... Obviously, if he's on this team, he's never going to be the lead guard. But could he be like a real sidekick? Somebody who's 37, 38 minutes a game, 3-3 is a game. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's 20. Maybe it's closer to you. It's somewhere between 18 and 22. But I wouldn't have said this three months ago, I don't think.

35:11Zach Lowe:But to your point, I think people just like recency bias and just people got a lot going on in their lives. I think people have kind of forgotten how good the Thunder can really be. And there's going to be a week when they get everybody back. And it's going to be like, oh, God. Oh, yeah, that's right. That guy, too. and that guy is coming off the bench and that guy's a luxury item. And like Jared McCain, who they swipe from the Sixers is suddenly like the 13th man on the team, but he's playing great too. Yeah.

35:39Bill Simmons:And honestly, not, not the worst thing in the world to not put all these miles on these guys when you're going to have a five or six year run, which I've been thinking about a lot. Like talking about that five year Warriors run, I forget what podcast we've talked about it on here, but you know, those years are like seven years crammed into five years when you add those playoff games and you look back at the history of the league and all these teams that had these four or five year intense runs like that and the guys would half the time break down at the end of them it certainly happened with the celtics in the in the 80s and it happened to the pistons by the time they got to 91 it was just off a cliff um the bulls kind of avoided it because jordan went and played baseball for that year and a half kind of kind of pushed it off i was thinking about the other day because robert hory was saying how he thought that 94 and 95 he said on some podcast the 94 and 95 Rockets would have beaten the Bulls, which in a vacuum is a relatively insane statement.

36:35Bill Simmons:But when you think about the Bulls coming off three straight titles and losing Horace Grant, I do think the Rockets would have beaten them one of those years.

36:43Zach Lowe:Is he saying like if Jordan never left?

36:46Bill Simmons:He's like, if Jordan was there, we would have beaten them both times. I don't know about both times. I don't think that's insane.

36:51Zach Lowe:Both times is probably crazy. But I mean, eight titles in a row, like that was not that was probably not going to happen it's not sustainable even people with the Bulls like Steve Kerr has said he doesn't think that they would have won all those titles

37:06Bill Simmons:speaking of nuggets just a quick one okay Cam Johnson concern scale I was DEFCON 2 and then the 0 for 4 today and I might now be at DEFCON 1 it's been bad Friday night I was on a couple different techs during that OKC Denver game. Three minutes left, I texted, this game is going to come down to a wide open Cam Johnson 3.

37:31Zach Lowe:No way.

37:32Bill Simmons:Because, yeah, I have it. I have the text. Wow. And the reason I said that was because he's been shaky enough in these games that they were clearly going to help off him in the biggest possession of the game and take their chances with him in the corner. And it's exactly what happened and he missed it. And it was a tie game with seven seconds left. this is why you go and trade him a trade that both of us loved and he just said hold on hold on

37:59Zach Lowe:don't lump me in with you i thought i thought michael porter jr was swept away like he was

38:05Bill Simmons:like i just lumped you in what are you going to do about it i said what i said i i lumped you in easy i don't care if you didn't want to be lumped in i needed company with me in house so you didn't

38:14Zach Lowe:like it you like porter i i i liked it because i it also allowed them to get valentunis and fill out their bench a little bit and it was clear some sort of financial relief was going to come i just thought people were like wildly underestimating how good michael porter jr was in in the trade and how important his shooting was for denver and i right i also didn't think cam cam johnson's moving so tentatively in some ways that i almost you just have to wonder if he's still not healthy all the way back from the various ailments that have hurt him this season because he just beyond the shooting numbers which are actually for the season all right he just is not adding any oomph to their ball movement, to their offense.

38:52Zach Lowe:It just isn't there. I looked

38:54Bill Simmons:up his crunch time stats and he's one for eight in crunch time. Small sample, sus. Small sample. But turns 30 this week. But I just think they need him. They need him at the end of these games. They've had so many winnable games. It's so weird to see a Nuggets team where they're still like five. We did this last week. We were saying how they're 500. They're still 500 over like 35 games now. And they've blown so many games at the end of games, which I just didn't think was possible. Now they have Gordon's going to come back. That's going to change things. Watson, I'm not freaking out. No, but the Cam Johnson thing is significant though, because he's somebody that if he, if he's not going to be out there in that spot when we're in the playoffs, who is it going to be hard away?

39:39Bill Simmons:Who's it going to be? Who's it going to be in that corner that is going to make or break like a game four on the road somewhere? because I don't, I don't, he's lost my trust, unfortunately.

39:50Zach Lowe:Well, Gordon and Watson answer a lot of those questions, but I mean, Jokic had more, some more goofy turnovers by his standards today. I think he had five turnovers. And he's had a few turnovers in all these games where it's like the defense is on his wavelength. Like they, I don't want to say they outthink him, but he doesn't outthink them. They see the pass coming and pick it off, which is unusual for him. And right now they just have no, they have no size. Like they're so small. They have no one. They have like Christian Brown's trying to guard Antony's all right at it. And Cam Johnson's trying to guard Julius Randle, who didn't have a great game, but they just don't have any size outside of their centers right now.

40:27Zach Lowe:It is beginning. Again, you can't panic, can't overreact because all these guys are coming back and we'll see if Aaron Gordon can stay healthy. But this last month with Jokic and the team not winning as much as you'd expect with Jokic still playing sensationally, it does have a feel of like sometimes it's just like it doesn't come together sometimes it's just not we're not there yet but it's it's on my like radar of like it might just be the year it doesn't happen and I expected it to happen like because I do think there's a legitimate great team in here but yeah sometimes you run out of time to find it I mean sadly I'm deep down feeling the same way the problem here is that Jokic is still

41:09Bill Simmons:having an all-time season and Murray is having the best season of his life and we shouldn't have this many questions. Also, when Gordon comes back, what level of Gordon are we getting? And also, is he coming back? We now have, they played so basically 20. We're at the, entering the last quarter of the season. So he's going to come back and just be thrown into a 4-5 matchup against Minnesota where they're going to need him for like 35 minutes a game and with a hammy, it's a hammy thing that just feels like it just keeps happening.

41:40Zach Lowe:That's the worry, is that his combination of size, power on both ends, defensive versatility, and he's now a proven 40-plus percent three-point shooter. They don't have anyone who combines all those things. That's why he's such a unique player. They have pieces of them and other players who have weaknesses. They get exploited elsewhere. And to get through the West, you need to be pretty damn close to 100 % to get through all of these teams. I mean, these are five legit, really good teams. and Houston, who we're kind of both down on, and I think everybody is, is now in third in the West. And whatever you think of them, they're going to make you feel some pain over a seven-game series, no matter who you are.

42:20Bill Simmons:The scary thing for Denver is four or five could be them and Minnesota, a team that loves playing Denver. It's very comfortable against them. Doesn't mean they're going to beat them. And the Lakers now have the same number of losses as Denver. And it's been this Lakers season, a team we've written off 700 times. And it somehow has the exact same record as Denver. Okay, next topic. Oh, speaking of the West, the 7, 8, 9, 10 in the West is just officially bizarre. Where we have Phoenix at 34 and 26. Booker's still out. Brooks is out, I guess, for the season. Golden State's 31 and 29, and it's going to be 31 and 32 in three games.

43:03Zach Lowe:I don't think they've said for the season with Brooks, but time-wise, it gets... Time-wise, it's very close to the last week. I just wanted to be clear. I was like, did I miss something? I don't think I did.

43:11Bill Simmons:Golden State could be under 503 games. Portland's at 29 and 32. The Clippers are at 27 and 31, but relying on Kawhi and Darius Garland, who aren't exactly Lou Gehrig.

43:24Zach Lowe:Clippers are about to win right now, by the way.

43:26Bill Simmons:All right, so they'll be 28 and 31.

43:30Zach Lowe:Portland lost, so they're 29 and 33. They lost to the Jonathan Kaminga-led Atlanta Hawks by 34 points.

43:36Bill Simmons:Crowd chanting. Thank you, Warriors. during the Kuminga game, as he had another one. Portland has a weird back injury thing that's going to knock him out of any possible NBA stuff, not that he was going to make it anyway. Golden State just said Curry needs at least 10 more days. That's starting to look a little get a little whiff of a little tanky whiff. Oh, I wouldn't. I don't know. If Curry, do you rush him back to play him hurt? Or do you be like, you know what? Let's get the 10th pick in the draft.

44:12Zach Lowe:Okay. I mean, that's a... I mean, so you got to lose in the play-in then. You got to like... There's zero chance that any of these teams fall out in the play-in. Yeah.

44:21Bill Simmons:Fuck it. We'll wait. Steph, come back that week if you're healthy. Give me two teams you think are in the playoffs. 7, 8, 9, 10. Phoenix, Golden State, Portland, and Clippers. Pick two. I got to pick two. Two have to make it? Two have to make it.

44:36Zach Lowe:Well, again, I'll tell you what, no one below them is even trying to win. So congratulations to the four play-in teams. Unless one of you passes the Lakers or Nuggets, you are in the play-in with 20 games left. We can celebrate. You can hang a banner. I will go. I'll go Suns Clippers. How about that? Suns Clippers. Darius Garland coming back tomorrow. Kawhi's Kawhi. You know, I don't feel great about it, but I'll go Suns Clippers. I don't love this Steph injury, and the team just feels like there's just a lot of DeAnthony Melton and Guy Santos and Quentin Post going on, and all those guys are actually playing okay, but it just feels a little like a rickety mishmash of whatever.

45:19Bill Simmons:The box score is alarming. The one yesterday, they got killed by the Lakers. The box score is like, oh my God, this is like a Brooklyn Nets lineup. I would also say Suns Clippers. I really tried to talk myself into Portland. I watched the entire Portland-Charlotte game. My Hornets were playing at 10 o 'clock Pacific time. I had to test drive that one. Portland really wanted the game and came in with a really hardcore defensive plan against, and I don't want to waste our Charlotte stuff because we're doing deep dive later, but really, it was the first time I've seen a team be like, here's our strategy to take out Knipple, and they were doing all this stuff to try to take them out.

45:57Bill Simmons:Drew Holiday was playing really hard. I like Klingen. They have good wings. Scoot Henderson, there's a lot of signs that he's, don't sell your Scoot stock yet. Don't shake your head.

46:06Zach Lowe:No, I did a whole Scoot Brandon Miller segment last two weeks ago and talked about Scoot. I just didn't think that was a particularly good Scoot game.

46:14Bill Simmons:Well, just there's some signs. They're getting more comfortable. They're giving him the ball and letting him do stuff.

46:19Zach Lowe:It would be nice if more of the signs went into the basket. But, you know.

46:23Bill Simmons:I'm just trying to be class half full of Scoot. I've been admitting defeat on the Brandon Miller Scoot thing.

46:28Zach Lowe:I've been officially admitting defeat. There's no other move. I mean, there's no other move. Brandon Miller. Brandon Miller is tremendous.

46:39Bill Simmons:He's really good. I love Brandon Miller. He's really looking Paul George, Jalen Brown-ish offensively. I think he could be 26 a game if he could stay healthy at some point in his career. All right. So we both say Phoenix and the Clippers. and yet the Clippers could, Kawhi could be gone tomorrow. Okay.

47:07Zach Lowe:I mean, yes, but if you're asking me to pick, I'm picking them. It's just, it's a little bit of a... I don't trust the Golden State thing. Everything about it is weird, including that there is no 11th place team. You can just erase the last part of the standings unless you're doing the reverse standings. You don't even need to look at them.

47:23Bill Simmons:Well, New Orleans might make a late search here. They're only 20 back. but they're one of the hottest teams in the Westbrook.

47:29Zach Lowe:They're 11 games behind the Clippers in the loss column.

47:31Bill Simmons:Can they make that up? I don't know. New Orleans played really well. Just killing the Hawks pick.

47:35Zach Lowe:Zion got hurt again, though. Not again. He played. Zion got hurt just as we got used to Zion playing. He's now hurt again. Hopefully it's minor. But this is just the story of some of these guys' careers.

47:46Bill Simmons:I hope we learned a lesson from this Pelicans pick with the Hawks because we've seen this situation before. The Celtics were in it one year with the Cleveland pick. Like we've seen these teams have these seemingly super choice picks and the time to trade them is November, December when they have maximum, look how good this pick's going to be. Because the truth is the team whose pick you have has no incentive to stop trying in the last 30 games of the season. And they start playing some of these other tanking teams and they're like, fuck it. Well, what do we care? And they'll start winning. And all of a sudden you're in the ninth pick instead of the fourth pick.

48:26And I think Atlanta probably should have sent that pick back in a while ago.

48:30Bill Simmons:So it'll be the ninth pick.

48:32Zach Lowe:If you watch the Pelicans, if a person who knows nothing about the NBA watched the Pelicans play any of the other seven to eight teams who are tanking right now, they'd be like, well, that's got to be the best team in the league, right? Like this team's got to be by far the best team. They're so much better than this other team.

48:48Bill Simmons:Some of the tanking stuff's great. And then Sacramento's taking it a step further. there was some weird internet rumor about, uh, that they want to sign Westbrook for next year, that he's become a leader of the team, Sacramento. Goldsberry sent us that. And my response was that I think him being the GM is the natural outcome for all of this. But putting him in charge of the team.

49:13Zach Lowe:He, I guess he's now, I mean, he's a King player. You have to be a King's player to really be in consideration to replace an established GM, a former King's player.

49:22Bill Simmons:You have to put your time in. It's like prison. It's like you have to be in the yard for a couple years before they let you work in the library.

49:29Zach Lowe:I didn't even have the heart to respond to the text. I just, it's just too sad.

49:35Bill Simmons:Is it, would you say it's completely inconceivable that Russell Westbrook could someday be the Sacramento Kings GM?

49:42Zach Lowe:No way. I think that, like, I don't, I'm surprised there are not odds on it already. Like, it's like -

49:47Bill Simmons:Maybe we could do it with those weird prediction markets. is. Kalshi? Put that bet down. Yeah. Kalshi. Just put some Kalshi money on that.

49:56Zach Lowe:Giannis tweets out, by the way, look at Kalshi today for a new line on Russell Westbrook being the GM.

50:02Bill Simmons:Dropped to 50 to 1 on Fandles. What's Fandles 1? Fandle predictions. Okay. Next goofy question. What happens if Giannis comes back this week?

50:14Zach Lowe:I'm so excited you brought this up.

50:16Bill Simmons:Miami is the... So right now, we have 6, 7, 8, 9. Philly's 31 and 27 Orlando's 31 and 28 Miami's 32 and 29 So they're all grouped together At 6, 7, 8 America's team The Charlotte Hornets Is 30 and 31 Can't wait to do the deep dive with them They're the 9 seed right now Atlanta is 31 and 31 Actually they're the 9 seed right now Charlotte's 10 And then Milwaukee is 26 and 33 So they are A couple losses behind Basically everybody Milwaukee was 8 and 3 In their last 11 Until they lost the stupid game They lost today Giannis is looming he could play the last 20 games so if they go I don't know could they get to 40 wins?

50:59Bill Simmons:it's possible they go 14 and 6

51:04Bill Simmons:what happens? could they make all they'd have to do is jump one team and get to the 10th seed and then it's just playing playoff games to me Giannis is not dead yet

51:14Zach Lowe:no that little I think people wrote off the Bucs and kind of forgot about the Bucs. And the Eastern Conference let the Bucs stay alive because that stretch they had before All-Star was absolutely massive because it gave them the margin for error to come back to earth. And this was a comeback to earth weekend for the Bucs. Two horrible losses, including a blowout to the Bulls who had not won in literally a month. And yet they're just still two games back in the Lost Column behind Charlotte and two games back behind Atlanta. Four games back in the Heat. But all of these teams, Like just look at their records in the last 10 games, Orlando six and four Miami five and five Hawks six and four.

51:53Zach Lowe:None of them have run away from the bucks. And, and like with the honest, the team makes sense. It makes enough sense to make up two games on an Atlanta Hawks team who only like kind of makes sense as a basketball team. Orlando is, is that's, that's Orlando and Miami are taller hills to climb, but not on, not teams without problem. I mean, Norm Powell just got hurt. He's going to miss a little bit of time. The sooner he comes back, the more interesting this gets because if they get into the play-in and they're going full throttle with Giannis, even if they're coming from the 9-10 seed, they got a hell of a chance to get in.

52:29Zach Lowe:And then it gets real interesting.

52:31Bill Simmons:Then it turns into NBA Cup where it's just like, you have to beat Giannis tonight or you're going home. And that's it. And Giannis really cares and actually wants to be in the playoffs.

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53:23Bill Simmons:And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

53:27Zach Lowe:EBCLIS, LibriKizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EBCLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EBCLIS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems.

53:54Zach Lowe:You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

54:00Bill Simmons:Ask your doctor about EBCLIS and visit EBCLIS.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. nine. So Philly, Orlando, Miami, Charlotte, Atlanta, Milwaukee, pick three.

54:13Zach Lowe:That get into the playoffs.

54:15Bill Simmons:Yeah. Just pick three right now for six, seven, eight.

54:17Zach Lowe:I'm not even going to look at schedules. I will do Philly or Orlando. No, I'm no, no. Ooh, this is actually hard. Yeah, I know. I'll go. Fuck it. I'm going to go Philly, Miami, Charlotte, Orlando's out. which would just be the most wildly disappointing outcome for almost any any team so i would have

54:42Bill Simmons:had orlando in the miami spot there i think philly and charlotte i have them in and charlotte i can't

54:47Zach Lowe:wait to do the deep dive i mean miami just miami is their way in it's just that's the thing did you see the houston any of the houston thing i did i saw the whole game until that game i was

55:01Bill Simmons:like they're going to, you know, this is not going to be the year for them, whatever. I don't know. They showed, they had a little feistiness in that game. And we always see around now, there's one team that kind of gets hot or does whatever. And I don't know if they're that good, but that, I don't know, you watch them and the team kind of makes sense now that when they have everybody and if they can get hero going a little bit. So I would probably say Philly, Miami, Charlotte. But Orlando, more likely they make the playoffs or they change coaches for the end of the season?

55:34Zach Lowe:I will go make the playoffs because I think I just, the history of this front office is that they act slowly and I think they will now give, especially given how much time Franz in particular has missed, I think they give this thing till the end of the season.

55:49Bill Simmons:That was an awful loss today. They're up seven and a half time. They lose by 14. Bad. Atlanta doesn't have their pick. So no real reason for them to throw it in. That's why I like Milwaukee. If they were 28 and 31 instead of 26 and 33, I'd be more excited. I think they've, they're probably a little bit too far back, but I was thinking with Detroit, this is such a strange situation for them to be in, right? It's like, they're going to get the one seed. They might have the best record in the whole league. And the prize for getting the one seed could be their Philadelphia with them beating George back.

56:28Bill Simmons:Miami, the fucking heat culture, weird voodoo Miami team. Charlotte, who's been awesome for 32 games now, like a legitimate kind of offensive juggernaut. And none of those matchups are fun. Like none of them. It's great.

56:47Zach Lowe:That's what the playoffs are supposed to be. Let's not have any pushovers. I mean, I think... Orlando would be a pushover. I don't think they'd be a pushover. If they were fully healthy, I don't think they'd be a pushover. I think the Hawks would be a pushover for Detroit. I just think...

57:03Bill Simmons:Orlando's not going to be fully healthy, and you know they're not going to be fully healthy. Cross that off.

57:08Zach Lowe:Unlikely.

57:10Bill Simmons:When Suggs plays two games in a row, it's like a shock.

57:13Zach Lowe:It really makes you feel good when you turn on the Magic game and Suggs is playing. I love watching Suggs play. I'm like, all right, this team just became 25 % more entertaining to watch.

57:21Bill Simmons:Yeah. Yeah.

57:25Bill Simmons:Cleveland, who won today? Barely. Another dorky combo. If you're Cleveland, do you care if you're just, you're the four seed, you play Toronto in round one? Do you care?

57:37Zach Lowe:No, I don't think you care about your seed at all. If you're Cleveland, you just need to get as healthy as possible. And like, you know what you're being judged on. And I wouldn't stress about three, four, one, two. You've had your ups and downs against all the teams currently above you in the standings. You just got to play.

57:54Bill Simmons:On Fandle, they were plus 125 for the four seed and 11-1 for the five seed. If I'm them, I just want everyone running full steam second week in April. I don't care if I'm playing Toronto and I don't mind playing Detroit. I think they would think they can beat Detroit. They have more offense, more stuff to bring to the table. Schroeder had really had a chip on his shoulder on Friday night. I thought that was just to bring him off the bench like possessed doing that crazy Schroeder stuff. I thought it would be fun. But I think that team you know, the Sam Merrill piece has defrayed the fact that they missed on DeAndre Hunter.

58:36Bill Simmons:Dean Wade is a I guess just a exit stage right.

58:41Zach Lowe:First of all, he's been starting for them for the most part since the team got fully formed again. When he plays decently, they are very hard to beat. He's a minor role player, but they really like him and they keep giving him chances and they keep seeing him through these months where it feels he hits two threes in a month and they don't have a game where it's like he's four of six from three and that's all he does other than play great defense. But it helps. But at least they turned Hunter into Schroeder and Keon Ellis. At least they got two guys that can play for them in that deal.

59:18Bill Simmons:Body language doctor likes their chemistry too. I like some of the stuff I saw on the sidelines from Mitchell and Harden. Looks like Mitchell and Harden like each other. Honeymoon Harden is just, it's really kicked in. I don't know, did you create Honeymoon Harden?

59:30Zach Lowe:Is that yours? I think I did.

59:31Bill Simmons:I'll take it. Next topic. I texted this to you, so you're actually prepared for this one. Normally I like to sneak attack you with topics. perimeter defenders better than the Thompson's all right let me bring up my list I asked you to make a list who's actually better than these guys perimeter defenders we're not talking big guys we're not talking uh tiny guards or small I don't the answer is I'm not sure anybody is

59:58Zach Lowe:um although I think they both are no player is perfect but I I think here so here are the names I wrote down as just like these are the guys you at least have to consider tell me how many names

1:00:09Bill Simmons:you wrote down before you tell me the names?

1:00:10Zach Lowe:I wrote like 15 names down because I go big. I go big all the time, but I don't.

1:00:14Bill Simmons:I wrote down 10 names. Yeah. Okay.

1:00:17Zach Lowe:Lou Dorr.

1:00:18Bill Simmons:Who is it? Caruso. Yep. They were not my first name.

1:00:24Zach Lowe:No, I'm just, I just went down standings order.

1:00:27Bill Simmons:Okay.

1:00:27Zach Lowe:And I'm going to omit some ones that I don't think are serious.

1:00:31Bill Simmons:Well, the good news is the fan bases won't take that personally at all if you forget somebody.

1:00:34Zach Lowe:So I'm just going to say, like, I'm not going to mention Hugo Gonzalez after saying I'm not mentioning I'm sorry, Hugo, you don't get into this one. The llama haircut doesn't get you in. I think Jaden McDaniels deserves a word. Derek White doesn't have the size, but...

1:00:51Bill Simmons:I left him off because I think there are certain guys that he probably can't guard.

1:00:56Zach Lowe:I still think Pete Kawhi needs to be on this list. He can't bring it every night, but when he really, really brings it, he might still be the best perimeter defender in the NBA for a game or a quarter. Yeah. Dyson Daniels. I left him off. You're running out at guys. And I don't mind leaving them off. Like you run out. Like I think Peyton Watson could get into this conversation. OG Ananobi. Had him.

1:01:24Bill Simmons:I had Kamara.

1:01:26Zach Lowe:Kamara is on my list. That's a good one. I had Scottie Barnes. He's on my list too. I was waiting. I wanted you to bring up Scottie Barnes. But I had him on my list.

1:01:36Bill Simmons:Here's my descending order. I had McDaniels first. I had the Dorton Caruso combo. Castle, Ananobi. I had Kamara, Kawhi, Barnes, and Bridges all next to each other. And I had Ian Edwards because I think when he really wants to guard for a possession, I think he's as good as anybody. I'm not saying he's doing it all game. If it's 30 seconds left and I need to play defense and I have him and McDaniels. I just saw it. I went to the Clipper game the other night. And the reason I have McDaniels so high is he snatched Ben Matherin's soul from his body for two hours. he just he reached inside his heart and pulled it out and by the fourth quarter Matherin who's like a really confident guy walks around with his chest out and it really seems alpha 8 was just like deer in the headlights and couldn't solve it McDaniels is terrifying and he's the only one I've seen in person other than when Kawhi gets into that I will now take the ball when he gets into that mode he's the only one I've seen on the level with the Thompson's.

1:02:41Bill Simmons:Castle, even though he guarded Durant, which was one of the great things that grant random things of the season, I'm not sure if there's certain guys that could he guard bigger guys like Jalen Brown, bigger physical forwards. I'm not sure he's big enough to guard those guys, but McDaniels is.

1:02:57Zach Lowe:But you cannot say enough. I mean, you cannot say enough about how good Castle and Harper are as defenders this soon into their career. Because the experience factor, although the Thompson twins are not super experienced either, is what makes it hard to put them on this sort of apex level. But those guys, I mean, they guard up in size so well. You put them on, they were on Brandon Ingram in a recent Spurs-Raptors game. Dylan Harper closed the game on Brandon Ingram and kind of clamped them a little bit. And I'd mentioned how Castle guarded Cat and Brunson in the same game. Like, they are up for, the Durant game I'd forgotten about when he kind of bodied up Durant, and like, Durant was like, what's happening?

1:03:38Zach Lowe:Is this a foul? What's going on? They are big and rangy, and they want all the smoke. Those guys are so far ahead of the curve defensively. It's crazy.

1:03:50Bill Simmons:Jalen Brown is in the vicinity for this, if it's one of those games where he's really fired up to play defense. But it's bigger guys. It's like Luka-type guys. It's the more physical type of wings that he's really good at defending and really has been for the last few years.

1:04:06Zach Lowe:I would not respectfully not put Jalen Brown in this conversation. I know.

1:04:09Bill Simmons:I'm just saying certain games. The other one, and I thought about this the other day at this, at this Cooper game I was at, I was like, first of all, three inches taller than I was prepared for in person. I don't know why the TV made me think he was like six one, but I felt like he was the same height as Anthony Edwards. I could figure it out. Big, big shoulders. And just when they had him, McDaniels and Edwards all out there at the same time against a team that really didn't have a point guard. Chris Dunn was the only sort of point guard on the Clippers. Everyone was terrified to bring the ball up.

1:04:45Bill Simmons:Nobody was happy about it. But I thought that was interesting.

1:04:49Zach Lowe:He's a great fit. You know who's furious right now?

1:04:53Bill Simmons:Who?

1:04:54Zach Lowe:Dylan Brooks is furious. Dylan Brooks is going to pick up the rare podcast technical for arguing. So he's just off the list? He's hurt? We don't even consider him? I had him honorable mention. He's hurt.

1:05:04Bill Simmons:We might not see him again this season. Well, this leads to the next question. Pick one as a defender.

1:05:12Zach Lowe:Of who?

1:05:13Bill Simmons:Houston Thompson or Detroit Thompson?

1:05:17Zach Lowe:Houston Thompson. I think Houston Thompson is ahead. I don't like doing the brothers thing. It makes me sad to pit the brothers against each other like this, but it hurts my soul. But I'm picking Ahmed Thompson. I think he scales down positionally a little easier than Asar does. Asar might guard up a little bit better, but I think Ahmed Thompson can guard anybody. And he just, his speed, I mean, they're both unbelievable, but I'd pick Ahmed.

1:05:41Bill Simmons:So I give him a slight edge as well. I think Asar is the single scariest guy to bring the ball up against. Like when he's really in, I'm going to try to get a steal as you bring the ball up mode, I think he's number one. Who's scarier than him?

1:05:57Zach Lowe:You know, I was watching a game. It was a tank-off game, and I watched it because I just, This is what I do. I watch Grizzlies Kings. Scotty Pippen Jr. Oh, he's another good one. I shit you not.

1:06:09Bill Simmons:Didn't he have three steals in a row or something? Four.

1:06:11Zach Lowe:Four consecutive steals while the Kings were bringing the ball up. And it was almost like, let's just cancel the game. If this is what's going to happen, send everybody home, refund the tickets. It's a great night out for Scotty Pippen Jr. Game over.

1:06:26Bill Simmons:See, that's another guy. Why didn't a contender try to get him? He's been injured the whole year. I don't care. It's like free second-round pick for him, right? Is Memphis turning down a second-round pick for Scottie Pippen? I don't think so. And he's been hurt most of the year. I wanted to see him in a playoff series. Okay, next question. So the All-NBA, it feels like we've separated to Yoka, Jess G8, Cade, and Wemby are levitating in that top group now. And then we have the next five. of Ant and Mitchell and Jalen and Luca and Maxie in some order.

1:07:04Zach Lowe:Ant, Mitchell, I'm writing this down.

1:07:07Bill Simmons:Ant, Mitchell, Jalen, Luca, Maxie are in the mix. There's a first team spot open, but then the next question is, I only listed nine guys. Who is the inside track for the 10th spot? If I gave you Brunson, Kawhi, Jamal Murray, Durin Durant Barnes Ahmed Thompson etc etc who's your 10th who's the 10th best player in the league right now from an all NBA standpoint in your opinion

1:07:37Zach Lowe:assuming eligibility Kawhi Leonard okay

1:07:42Bill Simmons:I agree with you so he's got

1:07:44Zach Lowe:like and I put Brunson next so Brunson when I did this I had Brunson Maxie I had Maxie 13 oh so you have Maxie

1:07:53Bill Simmons:out of that group and Brunson in the group

1:07:54Zach Lowe:I had Kawhi second team when I did my draft of NBA teams. So, all right.

1:08:00Bill Simmons:So there's nine plus Brunson, Kawhi, Murray, and Duren. That's 13, which means there's two spots left for everybody. Not to mention we might lose some eligibility guys. We've already lost Curry. Booker's at 16 now. Not that he was going to make it anyway, but he's probably getting bounced. Jokic only has two left. Wemby has four left. Kawhi, I think, has four. Avdi is going to be out. We might not have enough All-NBA guys is, I guess, my bigger point.

1:08:28Zach Lowe:Well, you didn't mention Durant.

1:08:31Bill Simmons:I didn't mention Durant.

1:08:33Zach Lowe:I mean, you got to mention Durant. You're not going to put Durant on third team All-NBA? You're going to put other? Okay. I mean. I didn't say I wouldn't. Were you on the text thread? Were you mentioned?

1:08:48Bill Simmons:I wasn't. Okay. I take stuff like the, whatever the hell happened in All-Star Weekend, I think has to count in your LNBA candidacy. That's the weirdest story of the year. 26?

1:08:59Zach Lowe:I get it. 26, 5, and 4. 50, 40, 90 shooting.

1:09:02Bill Simmons:Yeah. I had him. I have 13 guys listed. Then look. I'll even show you. Bubble. Durant. Top guy. So he would be on my third team if the season ended today. You didn't even mention him. Well, he's on my bubble list with Durant, Barnes, Thompson. I mentioned him as a bubble guy. Okay. And I don't know if any, the only person that I think the nerds might take and grab a hold of and grab the flame and start bringing it outside the wall, I could see a Chet momentum just for the defensive impact. We need two OKC guys in the NBA. I could see that unfolding. I don't know how you feel about that.

1:09:46Zach Lowe:Yeah, I mean, I could certainly see it unfolding because there is always that groundswell of, well, this team has to have X amount of people, which I don't really believe in. I just, I've been wanting him to do a little bit more on offense in some of these games without Shea and Jalen Williams and AJ Mitchell and on and on. Chet hasn't scored 20 points in a game since January 27th. it's just been too many like 13 15 17 and this is like i look the defense is unimpeachable he's unbelievable the fact that he could shoot threes is a huge spacing boon for their offense he's amazing i just think this level of conversation there's only 15 spots i for me i there's 20 games left so we'll see he's just he's out on the outside looking in but not by much it's not like a huge slight, you know, just player 19 or 18 or 17.

1:10:40Bill Simmons:He's an all-star, not an all-NBA guy.

1:10:42Zach Lowe:You haven't mentioned one guy that I, maybe you mentioned him when you listed him off and I missed it, but did you mention Jalen Johnson? I had him in the bubble list. Okay.

1:10:52Bill Simmons:Shea is minus 260 for MVP. Jokic is plus 450. Cade is 10 to 1. Inexplicable because if SGA misses five more games, I think Cade's going to win the MVP. I can't bet on it Over Wemby? Wemby's at 25-1 and I think the Spurs would have to basically lose two more games the rest of the year and be the one seed and have the best record in the league for it to be a serious combo. I'm not even sure some games if he's the best guy in the game for his team, even though I know the Detroit game Monday, what he did defensively was incredible, all that stuff Luka's dropped to 100-1 after a pretty tough week for Luca.

1:11:33Bill Simmons:100 to 1? Yeah. Wow. Oh, that's my next dorky thing I wanted to bring up to you. And then we're going to do the Charlotte deep dive. Luca's MVP finishes by year. This is his eighth year. Didn't finish first year. Fourth, second year. Six, third year. Fifth, eighth, third. didn't get any votes last year. This is year eight and he's not going to be in the top four. So he's only had one third place finish and one fourth place finish. This will be after eight years. If I had told you this during his rookie year as we watched how good he was, would you have ever have guessed this?

1:12:20Zach Lowe:No, and in fact, I feel like I've picked him as my preseason MVP at least twice. He's been like a preseason odds-on favorite to win MVP maybe more times than that. And so, yeah, I realize the whole conversation is now shifting into, there was a whole, will he ever win a championship conversation this year that I feel like is a little bit premature. But yeah, I am surprised. Part of it is that, you know, if you look at his game log, he's only cracked 70 games a couple of times. There's some certain COVID-related shortened seasons in there, but it is surprising. I thought he would have won an MVP by now.

1:12:55Zach Lowe:I thought he would have won. I thought he would have won an MVP for the Dallas Mavericks by now. So everything about what's happening is a little bit surprising.

1:13:03Bill Simmons:Good point. Yeah, when we were moving into the 2020s, and if we had had a who is the most likely guy to win one MVP this decade draft, I think he would have been the first pick.

1:13:14Zach Lowe:It's just tailor-made. The whole offense is going to revolve around him. His passing does make most types of players better. He's had playoff success basically since he came into the league. he's been a good playoff player, like going back to the bubble, etc. It just seemed like absolute no-brainer. You'd be shocked if a guy like this didn't win an MVP.

1:13:34Bill Simmons:He's 286 and 210 regular season. 287 now. 26 and 29 in the playoffs. Never has won

1:13:45Bill Simmons:I think 52 games is his highest with Dallas.

1:13:48Zach Lowe:Because he's missed a decent amount of games. He's missed the kinds of numbers of games that turn a 55 win team into a 47 win team. Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also, expensive. Sell their pint-sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees. Because somewhere, a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow. And he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Consider your future growth spurt budget secured. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply.

1:14:26Zach Lowe:See website for details.

1:14:29Bill Simmons:All right, it's time. Hornets deep dive. We're really doing this. I'm going to start us off with some Hornets facts. You know all of this.

1:14:39Zach Lowe:I'm just going to sit back and soak it in.

1:14:42Bill Simmons:They haven't made the playoffs in 10 years. Last time they made the playoffs was the last year of Barack Obama's second term. Since their expansion comeback year in 2005, three playoff appearances. As a franchise, because for whatever reason, we include the 1988 to 2002, whatever. They haven't won a playoff round since 2002, which was also the year they moved. They don't have a single number that they could retire this century. Unless you want to talk yourself up into a Kemba Walker night just for the emotional night. Or Al Jefferson night? Kemba would be the one. They haven't made the Eastern Finals once, even going back to the morning LJ era.

1:15:32Bill Simmons:Just in the last few years. They drafted Shea Gilgis-Alexander 11th and immediately traded him for Miles Bridges in two seconds. I forgot this happened. Oh, yeah. They drafted Jalen Duren and immediately traded him for a future first in three seconds, and the future first became Nick Smith Jr. They took Saloon one pick before Donovan Klingin. They spent a lottery pick on James Booknight.

1:16:02Zach Lowe:So that's a thing that happened.

1:16:05Bill Simmons:Last year, they were 19-63. They started out 4-14 this season, so they were 23-77 in 100 games over two seasons. And since then, something magical has happened. They're now 30 and 31. Their last 32 games, Zach Lowe, 21 and 11. Their first overall net rating plus 9.8 in the last 32 games of any NBA team. First in offensive rating, 121.4, which would be nearing the all-time high. They have 21 wins. 15 of 21 were by double digits, including their last four in a row. And they're 14 and three in their last 17 games. I have more, but let's all start there. This has been the most dramatic turnaround in season of anyone that I can remember.

1:16:51Bill Simmons:Any other time this has happened, there's been signs. Like OKC, the year when OKC became like a 500 team. It's like, yeah, I could see this building all year. This was like, this is like a fun league pass team that will never actually be a play-in team this year. There's no way. And yet they're going to be a play-in team and might even win the division.

1:17:10Zach Lowe:The division, I forgot about the division. The Southeast Division.

1:17:15Bill Simmons:They could win the division. Right now, the odds in the division, they are plus 460. Orlando is plus 135, and Miami is plus 155 on Fandle. I still like Charlotte to win the division. But there you go. So you go.

1:17:29Zach Lowe:Well, I'd just go.

1:17:32Bill Simmons:I could give you a couple more stats if you want.

1:17:34Zach Lowe:No, first of all, I implore whatever team wins this division, do not hang a banner, Even you, Charlotte, do not hang a banner.

1:17:46Bill Simmons:No, Charlotte, if they go 44 and 38 and win the division, I'm allowing the banner. No banner.

1:17:51Zach Lowe:You should be, any team that hangs division banners should be shamed at all times. I'll give you this.

1:18:02Zach Lowe:The Ball, Miller, Knipple, Bridges, Diabate lineup is plus 179 in 281 minutes. that's like that is preposterous that is the number one of deaths that is the number one plus minus for any lineup in the nba number two is the piston starting lineup at plus 131 so 48 points quote worse than the hornets and they've played almost twice as many minutes plus 179 in 281 minutes is insane.

1:18:41Bill Simmons:And somebody that wasn't playing for like, what, the first six weeks, basically? It's a perfect storm of,

1:18:48Zach Lowe:in all the attention on Knipple, and he's been unbelievable, and I don't want to besmirch anything about your illegitimate son, but he's been this constant metronome of productivity the entire season. Ball up and down, but Miller has leveled up and stayed there for like a month and a half to two months now. And something about the way Diabate fits with this group at the starting five, it's a perfect storm of Miller, Diabate, Lomelo kind of chilling a little bit with some of the crazy stuff and just be playing a simpler game in a lot of ways. It's all clicked together. And I mean, we're what you just said, 30, 35, 40 games into this being like, this is a real team.

1:19:33Zach Lowe:This is, I don't quite know where we're heading with it, but it's a real team. And as you're going to get into, the way this has happened is incredibly unusual in modern NBA history.

1:19:47Bill Simmons:The crazy thing about Lomelo, because if you weren't really following or watching the games or even looking at the stats, you would think like, oh, it's Lomelo's healthy and the team took off. He only plays like 27 minutes a game. he's in a weird way I don't want to call him a luxury but this is really built around Kahn and Miller and Diabate and then Lamello when he's good they become almost unstoppable now they have this Kobe White trade which we did the trade deadline thing it was like oh cool I like Kobe White more than Colin Sexton it's a really important trade for them for a variety of reasons one which I totally forgot until I was watching the game on Saturday he's a North Carolina guy Like Roy Williams was there to see Kobe White and Kobe White's like loves being in Carolina.

1:20:34Bill Simmons:He's, he's like, they're going to be able to resign him and they're going to make him like a part of stuff. Kobe White stats last three years, he was 19, five, four, 37 % from three made almost three threes a game. He's like the perfect guard to just add to this. And also more importantly, gives them LaMelo insurance. If LaMelo ever gets, gets wacky or gets hurt or anything. Right.

1:20:58Zach Lowe:Well, I mean, Colin Sexton was playing really well for them, and you could probably find the stats for him are not so dissimilar from what you just said about Kobe White. In fact, they're not.

1:21:06Bill Simmons:I know, but I'm talking styles of player, though. I just like Kobe White's game more. He's more of a basketball player.

1:21:12Zach Lowe:He's a bigger, more dynamic, more diverse kind of player than Colin Sexton was.

1:21:17Bill Simmons:Who can play off the ball, on the ball. I just think he fits better for what they're doing. He's a little bigger. He's got a little more defensively, I think he can help them. And I think that when they play that lineup of death you mentioned, but then you can move Kobe into the Lamello spot, it's still a really good team.

1:21:35Zach Lowe:We can't call it the lineup of death because the death lineup is taken and it's the Warriors lineup.

1:21:39Bill Simmons:I'm just trying to give Charlotte as many bones as possible.

1:21:42Zach Lowe:It's sitting there in front of us. How about the buzzsaw? The buzzsaw lineup. The buzzsaw lineup. I like it. Just the first draft. We can workshop it.

1:21:52Bill Simmons:So you mentioned something on one of your pods the other day. I can't remember. I think you were talking maybe about Detroit.

1:22:01Bill Simmons:Maybe it was with Leggo. You were talking about Detroit only has one guy that can really create a shot, but they have all these guys who know how to do all these things and they can kind of patch it together. But really, they only have one guy who can create a shot. And you could feel it the game on Friday night against Cleveland when Cade fouled out, which for some reason has happened more than once this season. Cade fouled out. It's like, oh, shit. What do we do now? And they tried to patch it together.

1:22:25Zach Lowe:By the way, you know part of the reason why Cade gets in foul trouble here and there? Because he tries hard on defense. He tries to make plays on defense. That's part of it.

1:22:33Bill Simmons:Well, he doesn't get the respect either. I don't think he gets the superstar respect. The Hornets have five guys who can create a shot. Like, for real. Khan can do it. Brandon Miller, obviously. LaMelo can get by anybody. Kobe White can create a shot. Miles Bridges can create a shot. so anytime it's like eight seconds left, play screwed up or whatever, wherever the ball is, somebody can kind of do something with it or you can set a screen. That's one thing. The threes are out of control. They're averaging 17.1 made threes during this 32-game streak where they're 21-11. 17.1. They're shooting 43 a game.

1:23:13Bill Simmons:They're 40 % from three, which leads the league, but they're also second in rebounds, which is nice because Canippo rebounds, Lamello rebounds, Bridges. every guy on the team goes and grabs rebounds. And then when you just think about if I know I'm getting 17 threes a game, I can kind of have a bad game and still be in the game. You know? I can still hang around. I can be down nine and then all of a sudden I'm down three. I don't know. And they have three 20-point scorers. I really believe in this team. And then we didn't even mention Grant Williams. who came back, the shooting stats aren't great, but they kind of needed one more glue guy who kind of knows where to go and how to move on defense.

1:23:59Bill Simmons:So they have LaMelo and Khan and Miller and Bridges. They have White. They have Williams and Diabate and Kalkbrenner and Josh Green, I guess.

1:24:08Zach Lowe:Josh Green has given them really nice minutes.

1:24:10Bill Simmons:As the 10th guy, as their swing defender.

1:24:12Zach Lowe:And he and Sion James are kind of the wing guys that come off the bench. Kind of the wildcard wings, right. But Josh Green has been the best version of what Josh Green is. You know he's not going to shoot much. He's going to play some defense and hit corner threes and move the ball. And he's done all of that for them. Do you value this?

1:24:28Bill Simmons:Nine in a row on the road?

1:24:30Zach Lowe:Love road wins. I'm a sucker for road wins.

1:24:34Bill Simmons:All right. I'm about to take this up a level to crazy town. But do you want to say something normal before I do that?

1:24:41Zach Lowe:I do. And I want to delight you in saying it. Because you mentioned this. First of all, I think you undersold LaMelo a little bit in saying the team is built around Knipple and Miller and LaMelo kind of floats in as a bonus. All the lineup data suggests that their offense is awesome when LaMelo's on the floor. And now this may change with White because they can keep two of these four guys on the floor at all times, which is used for them. But their offense without LaMelo has not been very good. And even like some, I don't have it all sorted in front of me that I did a couple weeks ago. Even like the Miller and Knipple, no LaMelo lineup was just so-so at one point.

1:25:15Zach Lowe:But anyway, so I think you understood him a little bit. But I'm just...

1:25:18Bill Simmons:Yeah, I was projecting the White being able to do a reasonable facsimile of a lead guard for them.

1:25:23Zach Lowe:I just think his level of creation is unbelievable. His knack for floaters, he's trying to get to the rim more. And you mentioned the shooting. Lomelo is an elite three-point shooter. It's just masked by the fact that he took so many difficult threes that deflated his percentage limit. He's an elite three-point shooter. And everyone knows Knipple's a great shooter. At the end of the sentence about, and they have this Knipple is unbelievable shooting. He is, this is one of the greatest shooting seasons anyone has ever had in the history of basketball. And I just, I did the basketball referencing for you.

1:26:02There are six seasons in the history of the NBA,

1:26:08Zach Lowe:six individual player seasons, and Knipple is on pace to be seven and he's almost going to do it this week. 2 ,000 minutes, so you can't be like a role player who comes in and pops threes. 43 % or better from three. He's at 44 % right now. At least eight threes per 36 minutes attempted. Six player seasons total. Here are the six. Steph Curry, Steph Curry, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Desmond Bain, Duncan Robinson, and at 1 ,900 plus minutes, about to be con canipple.

1:26:44Bill Simmons:Wow. And the Klay Thompson is the comp. because that's who he reminds me of, like a Clay Thompson coaching tree kind of player the way. He just reminds me of him with some of the stuff he does, but he moves kind of smartly in the paint and stuff. He does stuff Clay never did. Clay was always around the fringes for the most part. Khan also has this little John Havlicek side when he can muscle in and get a little 10-footer, 12-footer. But when they set those picks, it really reminds me of Clay. Those little quick flare picks when all of a sudden he's wide open for a split second, he makes them.

1:27:21Zach Lowe:They move their best offensive players around in such creative ways all over the floor. Charles Lee and his staff deserve a lot of credit. They've really maximized three guys who you look at them and think, well, teams should be able to switch a lot of actions between these guys. And it's just they've made it really hard to keep track of everybody. All right.

1:27:41Bill Simmons:Are you ready?

1:27:43Zach Lowe:I'm so excited.

1:27:44Bill Simmons:We're going to crazy town.

1:27:45Zach Lowe:Let's go.

1:27:47Bill Simmons:the 2013 Warriors 47 and 35 40 % from 3 led the league upset Denver in round 1 lost to San Antonio in round 2 we were working at Grandland together league was not as good that 2013 Warriors team with those two guys and David Lee basically was Bogan on that team yet he was

1:28:17Bill Simmons:the league just wasn't as good and that was probably a 41-41 team now

1:28:23Zach Lowe:that was a 51 win team

1:28:25Bill Simmons:no they were 47 and 35

1:28:27Zach Lowe:oh 12-13 you're talking 12-13

1:28:29Bill Simmons:I'm talking that first Warriors season

1:28:31Zach Lowe:that's the team

1:28:34Bill Simmons:Curry was 22 a game Klay was 17 a game combined they were 6.1 made threes people didn't shoot the threes as much back then As that season evolved, we were like, something's really here. This is headed somewhere. And then when they beat Denver, it was what, 56 wins that year? Ty Lawson's team. Iguodala's on that team. George Carl was a big upset. And then they lost to the Spurs in the next round. But Curry, everything about it felt like something special happened. So that summer, they make a big move for Iguodala. They had Draymond on the team as a rookie, but he blossomed the second year. They go 51-31.

1:29:12Bill Simmons:when they lose the Clips in seven, Curry and Klay jump up, and then the next season was this season. My crazy town question for you is could this Khan-Miller-Lamello threesome be the same kind of foundation that Curry and Klay were for that Warriors team? And could you actually like see a path for this nucleus with some of the caps, some of the picks, which I want to go through, adding one more guy, could this be like a real playoff team a year from now?

1:29:42Zach Lowe:There's no question it could be a real playoff team a year from now. And I do think adding one more guy has to be part of the recipe. But I think the Warriors comp, you're now copying them to what becomes an all-time incredible team.

1:29:55Bill Simmons:That's why I said we're going to crazy town.

1:29:57Zach Lowe:A nucleus. You have to include Draymond in the, can this be Steph and Klay?

1:30:01Bill Simmons:But I'm saying that that first year, Draymond's not, it's just Curry and Klay basically with Bogut and Harrison Barnes is on there at that point. But it's not Draymond. we didn't know who Draymond was as a potential like dynasty guy. That's the year to point to because more than the regular season and even more than the Denver

1:30:20Zach Lowe:series because Gallinari gets hurt right before that series and it kind of upends their team. The Spurs loss, that was the final proof of concept for me. I remember vividly thinking it at the time, writing about it at the time, talking to people with the Warriors the next season and beyond about that series. And remember the first two games in that series were in San Antonio and they were wild games. The Warriors split the games and then Steph gets hurt in the series and kind of limps through it. Boga gets hurt in that series and kind of limps through it. They lose in six. But just like the gold standard of NBA defense ran in to something that they didn't know what to do with.

1:30:56Zach Lowe:They just were like, we're, we don't, this guy's pulling up from 30 feet and we're supposed to defend this. Like this is not how we were told basketball was. That series was the series where the Warriors became the Warriors to me. And then they just, it's a snowball from there. This team is going to be an awesome offensive team. They could be a 50-win team next year. I don't think that's out of bounds at all. Like that kind of leap, this is a real thing. That kind of leap is there. I do think one more add is key. And then the Draymond thing I bring up only because the Warriors were an elite defensive team right away when they started to play him.

1:31:30Zach Lowe:And I think that's the big question for this team is how do they become a top 10? But that really wasn't until

1:31:35Bill Simmons:the 67-win season when Lee got hurt and then Draymond's minutes went way up, right? That was the year when it bloomed. That was year three of this.

1:31:47Zach Lowe:The David Lee injury was a big part of their team. 13-14, they were third in defense. 12-13, they were 12th in defense. Right. The Bogut Ellis trade obviously also changed the trajectory of their team. But that's the question for the— and maybe Diabata has answered some, but they're up to 17th in defense now. And this did not look like a team that could be an average defense. So they're trending the right way. Well, how about this?

1:32:14Bill Simmons:In that 32 game streak, the 21 and 11th, their eighth net rating.

1:32:18Zach Lowe:Trending the right way. And Kalkbrenner off the bench is a real guy defensively. Like he's a problem defensively. The perimeter guys will all get better. And they know exactly what they want to be defensively. So they're number one in opponent free throw rate and number one in defensive rebounding, which means they do not beat themselves. You have to beat them. And they allow the second fewest corner threes in the league. And I said this way early in the season, like all these numbers have been there since the start of the season. And just the other mistakes they were making were sabotaging their defense.

1:32:54Zach Lowe:But like the groundwork was laid for a competent defensive team. They had a structure, they had things they wanted to accomplish and they were starting to accomplish them. And now the other parts of their defense have caught up and their offense has completely exploded. But that's the question to me is, can they become like a top 10 to 11 defense in the NBA? And if they can, I think, I don't see why 50 wins is out of bounds next year. Why would it be? And that would be a huge jump. What are they going to win this year? I don't know. Maybe they could win 44 this year, 42. But yeah, 50 something next year.

1:33:24Zach Lowe:Why not?

1:33:25Bill Simmons:I've been pretty good over the years at identifying when some team has, like just being a year early on somebody. I remember the OKC. the year they finished 40 and 42, right? It was the 22-23 season. Now, it didn't take a rocket science to think that a team with a bunch of draft picks and Shea, we knew at that point, was going to be special, like that they were going to be really good. But I remember, and I remember talking about the podcast at the time, they played LeBron in the game when LeBron broke the record. And watching them and how they handled that whole experience, and they just kind of wanted to keep the game going because they were trying to beat the Lakers.

1:34:07Bill Simmons:They just had a calmness and a competitiveness to them. I was like, there's something really here. I feel that way about the Hornets. I felt that way about those Warriors teams in that 13 season where I was like, there's something actually really here. This isn't just like a fun story. There's something special brewing. And I really feel that way with this Hornets team. I don't think this is like, I know they're not even 500 yet. They're 30 and 31. But I think they have the foundation, especially the white trade. They have, I don't know if Bridges is their long-term or not, and I assume Lomelo is.

1:34:41Bill Simmons:But they have this Dallas pick that's top two protected in 27.

1:34:45Zach Lowe:It's a great asset.

1:34:46Bill Simmons:They have a Miami pick that's top 14 protected this year and unprotected in 27.

1:34:51Zach Lowe:The Rozier pick.

1:34:54Bill Simmons:What is their Iguodala move is my question. because Golden State came out of that 47 and 35 season. Draymond wasn't Draymond yet. They were basically Curry and Klay and some barns. But their big move was Iguodala. They dumped some contracts. They added two first-round picks. They went and got this amazing fourth banana for them. And that made their team go up a level. Could it be Giannis? Could it be Bam Adebayo? Could it be Anthony Davis? Could it be Trey Murphy? Could it be somebody like Isaiah Hartenstein? OKC just trying to get off his money it's that there's not as many candidates as you think but I think that's the next step for this it's a playoff warrior guy that can come in and be like one of your five guys

1:35:40Zach Lowe:and they have time it's funny how fast this goes in the NBA because this is a feel good story right now and you know they don't have all three of Knipple and Miller and Lomelo on max deals until 28 2829 and then they will or i'm sorry until 29 30 that's the end of canipple's rookie deal so they have time but they got to use these next two or three years to take advantage of that salary cap space and that cap tax apron flexibility that will go away if and when all three of those guys are on max deals and get someone in the door who can help them win now because they're going to be ready to win big and i do think it needs to be somebody who i don't want to i don't even think you need to lean defense i just think you need to be a good defensive player and fill some gaps on defense because that's and probably have some size but but they should absolutely be active trying to find like they were one of my favorite just for total for fun i didn't think they would do it nor do i think they should do it but like anthony davis popped into my head when nico harrison got fired like too expensive too old but bam is a good name i don't think the heat ever want to trade Bam, but like a guy, a guy like that who, who defends, but doesn't gum up your offense, which is obviously hard to find, but they're going to be on the hunt for somebody because these three guys together, there's, this is a real thing, what they're doing offensively.

1:37:04Bill Simmons:They have all their own first run picks plus those two other ones. The other piece is new owners, which is similar to the Warriors situation, right? The Warriors brought they make up and those guys bought that team right around 2011 12 so it was like early on and they've kind of revamped the back they're actually spending money which is you know the secret problem with charlotte was jordan was one of the worst owners of all time you know we love michael jordan he was just a terrible owner who was cheap and made bad decisions it was too poorly run behind the scenes to hire charles lee who's great who by the way charles lee was involved with the Bucs when they won the title and the Celtics when they won the title, and I think is one of the best coaches in the league.

1:37:47Bill Simmons:They're not that far away. When you think like the foundation of those three guys versus like Curry, who turned out to be one of the all-timers, just Curry and Klay versus those three together, talent-wise, it's like you're at least in the vicinity and then you can patch it around. I think the Knipple piece, all jokes aside, but he's 20 and he's putting up stats that a 27-year-old would do and the stuff they're doing with him in games. Like to have somebody who's that young, who you have on a rookie contract that you can still kind of build around. It's a little reminiscent of when the Warriors had that huge discount for Curry forever, right?

1:38:24Bill Simmons:What was he making? Like 10 million a year for like years and years? I think he was like a four-year,

1:38:28Zach Lowe:$44 million extension or something.

1:38:30Bill Simmons:Yeah, they were able to just patch shit around. That's basically the Knipple contract. Lamella's a max and they're going to have to pay Brandon Miller this summer, I think. And he's earned the contract now.

1:38:40Zach Lowe:and and speaking of lamello i it's i am like an all-time like lamello defender i never got off the lamello is good thing and i do think it'd be interesting to have a conversation with him because winning is this weird feedback loop where finally the team is winning and i do think he's modulated his game as much as young lamello ball can modulate his game like a lot of the crazy early clock threes they're being trimmed down a little bit that he's trying harder on defense and more consistently on defense there's always going to be moments where like only lamella ball could take that shot there's the only player in the league who would do that but i do think he's playing like a calmer more just clean normal style of basketball and i wonder i would love to ask him like in these previous years with charlotte what was to stop him from doing whatever he wanted he couldn't look around the roster being a little that guy can shoot and that guy should shoot and that guy should shoot and we're losing anyway they had a couple good play in years with borrego and stuff but now he looks around he's like that guy's fucking awesome that guy's scoring more points than me and we're winning all these games and all of a sudden we have a lot of hype around us and and and a lot of a lot of buzz no pun intended maybe i can take maybe i can just take 12 shots tonight and 15 shots the next game and 11 shots the next game and not take 25 shots and have a usage rate that's gargantuan and everything's cool and I do think there's, I think his game is changing a little bit in that sense

1:40:12Bill Simmons:I was completely out I didn't think he was going to get it and usually by year 6 if there's no signs of life, it's not happening but I'm with you, I think I think he's toned back a lot of stuff what's interesting about him on this team and why he's such a good fit in so many different ways. And again, he's playing 27 minutes a game. Like, they're very careful with not putting too much on him. Remember they brought him off the bench a few times? Yeah. Like, back-to-backs? They're easing him in. They'll get a rebound, and he can do a... Maxey is a good parallel to this, where he's just off, right?

1:40:45Bill Simmons:And he's, like, full speed. They're not just, like, this half-court team or this team of three-point shooters. They also have this fast-break side. and when he's off, these guys split to the sides and they know what to do and it's really hard to defend. At home, they're finally starting to get some sellouts. There's some real energy for some of these games. I think they're going to be really dangerous.

1:41:06Zach Lowe:Talk about a team that fans are dying to love. Oh my God, I feel so bad for their fans. They're waiting to fall in love with a team like this and I hope they make the playoffs. I would love, I mean, Pistons, Hornets, round one would be unbelievable theater.

1:41:22Bill Simmons:It's a terrifying series if you're the Pistons because you're playing a team that started out 4-14 and has basically been a 50-win team since. And that's who you're getting as the 8 seed.

1:41:32Zach Lowe:And they're going to come out like I don't ever see them deviating from how they play because it's the playoffs. They're going to play fast. They're going to play loose. They're going to shoot tons of threes and play with tons of bravado. That's just who they are.

1:41:45Bill Simmons:It's funny. So comparing anyone to the Warriors is insane. That's why I said we're going to crazy town. But in 2012-13, when we were working together, we never could have predicted anything that happened with that Warriors team, right? We just knew they were super fun. And it was like, I'm glad Steph Curry's gonna turn out to be a really good pro because there was three years there where we didn't even know if he's gonna be able to stay in the league with his ankles. And thank God he's really fun to watch. And I'm so glad we've gotten to this point. And hey, Klay Thompson's really good too. And then over the next three years, it built into this way bigger thing.

1:42:17Bill Simmons:They have the foundation to do something pretty special with this team.

1:42:20Zach Lowe:So I was looking through the last 25 years of teams that sort of like unexpectedly and organically snapped into something.

1:42:30Bill Simmons:Was this your first chat GBT foray?

1:42:33Zach Lowe:Yeah, I did a little chat. I did one chat GBT and then I felt horrible about it and I stopped. Why'd you feel bad? I just, you know. You had to try it. I'm old school. Can we have just like writers and writers doing writing, doing the writing?

1:42:47Bill Simmons:I've just gone to the library and researched this and encyclopedias.

1:42:50Zach Lowe:Hey, look, we take, I, the Lowe family takes out books from the freaking public library. Okay. You think I'm buying my daughter, all the goddamn babysitters clubs, books and all that stuff. No, you're taking some of those out of the library.

1:43:00Bill Simmons:The Greenwich public library is one of the great libraries. You don't have to blow up my spot like that. Well, it's a great place.

1:43:06Zach Lowe:Yeah. It's got its ups and downs. And it like, there really isn't a perfect, this is the most interesting. So a lot of them are, have one or two, one or both of these things. One, a consensus, even as this is happening and it's early, this guy's going to be one of the 15 to 20 best players in the league at worst. Like a, like a true blue, like Derek Rose or Damian Lillard or Steph Curry or on and on for your sort of like organic builds, a couple of exceptions. Or two, there's a coaching change that dramatically changes how the team plays. So like the Bucks with Budenholzer, the Hawks with Budenholzer, that's a good team that didn't maybe have a top 20 player.

1:43:53Zach Lowe:And there's a couple more like the Bulls with Tibbs, the Pacers. The Pacers are actually an interesting comparison. Like the Paul George, David West, George Hill, they have a coaching change. but Paul George I think becomes an all obviously became an all NBA player and do you look at I think probably they do but they don't do we have like an all time superstar on this team?

1:44:18Bill Simmons:I think that's where this falls apart because you would have to say the Knipple Miller combo as how unusual it is to have two wings that can both shoot and are almost interchangeable in some ways almost as the superstar because it's a little like what the Celtics had with Jalen and Jason for a while there where it's like these two forwards. Like, what is this? Nobody has anything like this. And maybe that's the superpower. Just being able to have all these different lineups, but with those two guys as the centerpiece and you can go bigger or smaller with them. I think you gotta include LaMelo.

1:44:55Zach Lowe:It's the three of them together because he's the best passer. He's also 6 '7", the same height as Brandon Miller and one inch listed taller.

1:45:03Bill Simmons:I don't want to put this on LaMelo because I'm so nervous that it's going to fall apart for him at any time. Well, the health stuff has been...

1:45:12Zach Lowe:The health stuff is now the thing that makes me the most nervous is just the ankle stuff that keeps popping up and making him miss time. But the three of them being 6 '6", 6 '7", and having the combined passing, shooting, ball handling skills that they have is really unusual.

1:45:26Bill Simmons:Well, how many teams in the league right now have five guys who, if the situation was right, could absolutely easily score 20 points a game. Like, think about that.

1:45:37Zach Lowe:Yeah. It's not many.

1:45:40Bill Simmons:Because there's a scenario where it's like, hey, Miles Bridges, we need you to score 25 points a game for three weeks here. He could actually do it if they wanted him to. So for the people here listening who are like, this is the most fucking insane thing I've ever heard. I don't think anyone who's paying attention could think this is insane. Well, the advanced metrics are demanding that we have the conversation. When you're first in net rating, for 32 games, you have to have the conversation. They play Dallas at home on Tuesday. They're going to win that. Dallas has given up on the season. They're at Boston on Wednesday.

1:46:13Bill Simmons:Home Miami on Friday. That's a fun one.

1:46:16Zach Lowe:That's a must-watch. Charlotte, Miami, Friday. That's going on my calendar.

1:46:20Bill Simmons:At Depleted Phoenix on Sunday. At Portland. At Sacramento. And then at San Antonio on March 14th. Then they have a little Miami-Orlando home game combo after that.

1:46:30Zach Lowe:They waxed the Spurs, by the way. They didn't wax them, but they wire-to-wire beat the Spurs at home in Charlotte.

1:46:37Bill Simmons:So at Boston Home Miami, this is now, it's midterms for them. It's the midterm exams in high school. It's like, okay, you have our attention. Now go to Boston. You're not going to have Jason Tatum yet. This is a team you should be able to play with. You're going to shoot a lot of threes and be super comfortable. And then Miami, that's the team you have to get through in your division. Can you split these? Can you win both? If you lose both, then we were in crazy town and this was stupid.

1:47:05Zach Lowe:No, you can't. You live in... Two games can't take you out of crazy town. At Boston's a tough game and Miami's Miami.

1:47:13Bill Simmons:I know, but I just brought the 2013 Warriors and the 2023 OKC into this.

1:47:19Zach Lowe:That's where we got in the crazy town. I tried to temporary by bringing in some teams who became very good and did not perhaps accomplish the great history that the Warriors accomplished because they were all very good teams. But no, you stay in Crazy Town. You can't be dissuaded by two games, especially one against Miami, in which something as historically significant as the 2026 Southeast Division title could be at stake. I mean, the pressure that all the players must feel knowing the division is in the air in that game is palpable. People less, better, stronger humans have quaked under that kind of pressure before.

1:47:55Bill Simmons:If we wanted to go to Crazy Town, we would go to the 1978 Seattle Supersonics, who started out 5-17 and ended up losing the finals in seven games to Washington and then winning a year later. No one... But that is the craziest start-to-finish season. 5-17 made the finals. I think there are probably less than 50 people

1:48:21Zach Lowe:who are still alive who can have... who can say one sentence about the 1977-78 NBA Finals, who can say one coherent sentence about the Seattle— I could probably name nine of the guys on the team. It's a great basketball card team. I think you guys are going to be like D-Day soldiers who every year there's fewer and fewer of you left.

1:48:42Bill Simmons:Well, that's like my dad with the season tickets for the Celtics. He's like fifth oldest now for having the tickets straight through. I think there's some guy who's like 90, but my dad's like moved into the top. Has he been honored? It's like,

1:48:56Zach Lowe:you know how they do the season ticket holder of the game. They bring them out and they waves.

1:49:00Bill Simmons:I honestly can't believe he has been, has been brought to mid court and wave to the crowd. What's he got to do? Come back going since 1974. Wow. That's, that's astonishing. I'm actually surprised. The 73, 74 season brought him a title. So anyway, yeah, Charlotte, I think this is real. Okay. Before we go. Okay. Um, it's March. It's spring training. I have the Mets over under for the year for you.

1:49:27Zach Lowe:Over. I don't even know what it is.

1:49:31Bill Simmons:Well, you could go. Oh, where is it? Over is. I can't find it. Well, 90 plus wins is minus 134. You winning 90 games? Probably not. You don't think so?

1:49:48Zach Lowe:I think they look, I'm following it from afar. It seems like a little bit of a problem that every day there are quotes coming out of spring training that amount to like, it turns out playing this new position is a little trickier than player X thought it would be. And that's like five players on the team. And like Brett Beatty now has gloves for seven different positions.

1:50:08Bill Simmons:It's never a good sign.

1:50:10Zach Lowe:I hope this is going to work. It seems I'm a little worried, frankly, but of course I'm taking the over on whatever the over under is.

1:50:16Bill Simmons:Are you watching Survivor 50? No, I haven't watched any.

1:50:20Zach Lowe:I've never watched an episode of Survivor. Not one.

1:50:23Bill Simmons:Do you ever think of going on?

1:50:27Zach Lowe:I would probably not subject myself to it.

1:50:32Bill Simmons:What would be your strategy if you went on?

1:50:34Zach Lowe:I don't even know how it works. We do tasks and then someone gets voted off. And I know everyone forms alliances and their people alienate other people in their backroom deals. My strategy would just...

1:50:45Bill Simmons:It's like ESPN.

1:50:48Zach Lowe:Are there teams? I'm seriously, I'm sorry. I'm not bringing anything to the table.

1:50:54Bill Simmons:I can't go on because I wear contact lenses and I have allergies. Otherwise, I would have gone on. Yeah, I would have loved it.

1:51:02Zach Lowe:There's no workaround for that?

1:51:04Bill Simmons:No. I feel like that's an excuse. Being in the outdoors. Well, now I'm too old. My wife was my dream person to go on, though, because great at challenges. She would have owned the challenges, but gets crazy if she's not eating and you have to like, you're really hungry on Survivor. She's just an absolute terrorist. There's not like a hotel nearby

1:51:24Zach Lowe:where they're getting catered meals?

1:51:26Bill Simmons:No. So she'd be just an absolute maniac, but then would win the challenges. They wouldn't be able to vote her off and she would just be yelling at everybody about the rice. Just like who ate the rice? There was more rice here. I'm trying to think what reality show

1:51:41Zach Lowe:has ever tempted me. Like that would be fun. Amazing Rice? That's the one. That's the one where like, I travel around the world and solve problems and puzzles and go on chases. That seems fun.

1:51:53Bill Simmons:What's the craziest thing you've ever done? The craziest thing I've ever done? Well, joining a reality show would be the craziest thing. If you told me one time I applied to be on The Real World, I'd be like, that's the craziest thing you could have told me.

1:52:07Zach Lowe:I don't think I have anything.

1:52:08Bill Simmons:Did you have anything like you're like, I can't believe I did that?

1:52:11Zach Lowe:I mean, I still can't believe I ever got on television to talk about anything. You were there with me the first time I went on TV and I almost had to take me to the emergency room.

1:52:22Bill Simmons:I couldn't even convince you to do a podcast.

1:52:24Zach Lowe:No, it was two months. Like it was, I think all of this is crazy. I'm trying to think if I did anything.

1:52:30Bill Simmons:I'm glad you mentioned that. I think about that sometimes. All of this is crazy.

1:52:34Zach Lowe:I don't think I have any. I mean, I did crazy stuff when I was a cops and crime reporter at the Stanford advocate in Stanford, Connecticut, like talking to murderers.

1:52:43Bill Simmons:What was the craziest trial you ever covered? craziest trial ever.

1:52:48Zach Lowe:It's sad. It was a home invasion in which an elderly retired teacher was murdered in her own house by, I don't even remember who exactly did it. It was someone that they didn't know. It was like kind of a random thing, if I remember it correctly. I covered all sorts of horrible stuff and talked to lots of scary people and lots of very interesting people in strange places. It was crazy.

1:53:12Bill Simmons:I was on a jury once in the, like the late 1990s, maybe 2000, where I was living in Boston. You're on a jury?

1:53:20Zach Lowe:No, I've always gotten out of jury duty.

1:53:22Bill Simmons:I was on a jury. Um, and it was, it was this case where, um, these guys got in a fight in an elevator and somebody got stabbed. And he said, it was the guy who did the stabbing said he was defending himself and we had to do this three-day trial and uh decide on whether he did it or not it's pretty tense sounds tense yeah it was uh i won't tell you what the verdict was but it was uh

1:53:51Zach Lowe:i'm gonna come back with the better answers so i'm sure i've done something crazy that's just did you ever drive cross-country with anybody no trying to think like you're just

1:54:01Bill Simmons:a very practical guy.

1:54:03Zach Lowe:I once chaperoned a high school band trip to Florida from New Jersey. I was one of eight faculty members who did that. It wasn't crazy. It was just incredibly unpleasant from start to finish. It involved, that involved a group. I mean, we're talking like 60 children, high school children and eight teachers. And that involved one of the nights was a dinner at medieval times in orlando and what we it was like night four of a five-day trip and we did have a serious conversation among the faculty members about whether we could sneak alcohol into medieval times and not and and no one would be able to be tell because the cups were pewter and whether the risk reward equation was worth it because yeah what a way to get fired so sick of the whole

1:54:52Bill Simmons:the whole trip medieval times like in the cable guy so yeah it's still going we look we actually

1:54:58Zach Lowe:had to talk about this with some friends there's still there's like 10 medieval times around the country if you want to organize a work of like an outing did you follow this whole thing that

1:55:06Bill Simmons:people were worried that jim carrey had been replaced i did see i saw photos that looked

1:55:12Zach Lowe:like you know different than i remember jim carrey but people age and then the hollywood people have things happen to them and they don't look i thought it looked like he had fillers in

1:55:21Bill Simmons:his cheeks. I didn't think he got replaced.

1:55:23Zach Lowe:There's been, there have been, there's a litany of people who I see them in movies and I'm like, that person looks like that now. That's like, doesn't even, I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years.

1:55:35Bill Simmons:I like the, in general, I wonder if anyone's ever been replaced in our lifetime.

1:55:40Zach Lowe:You're going down some dangerous roads that could get us into some political discourse.

1:55:44Bill Simmons:Well, it happened in Dave, but that was a movie. well it's just it did happen it was just in a script kevin klein came in he looked just like dave did it um have you seen sicario i have you have you like sicario i love sicario is i haven't

1:56:02Zach Lowe:seen it i saw it in a hotel by myself in los andres on some road trip because it's a it's a classic my wife will never watch a movie and i didn't quite know what i was getting into i knew the gist of it. And I remember being like, this is so much better than I even thought it was going to be. And I would like to re-watch it. I have not seen any of the sequels. I think there are there multiple sequels?

1:56:20Bill Simmons:Multiple sequels. The original Sicari was on Netflix and we're doing a live re-watch almost tomorrow, 6 p.m. ET. Me and Fantasy and Chris to kick off CR Month. We have two other movies knocked down. Fargo, his second movie is CR Month. And then today just announced To Live and Die in L.A. I don't know if you know that one I don't think I've ever seen that movie

1:56:42Zach Lowe:William Peterson

1:56:43Bill Simmons:it's a classic you can find it I don't know if it's on Netflix but yeah those are the first two more spots so five movie month for rewatchable thanks to McLoab Ultra for sponsoring this live stream thanks to Gau and Eduardo and Jack and Kevin and Chris and everybody at the ringer as well Zach Lowe you have a podcast Tuesday morning Tuesday morning Thursday morning That's right. Thursday morning will be the holy shit. That Hornets Celtic game was the game of the year. And Jason Tatum's coming back on Friday podcast. So I'm looking forward to it. Wow. Good to see you, my friend. Thank you. Always fun.

1:57:19Bill Simmons:Thanks, everybody.

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