Caleb Wilson Fever, 2020 NBA Redraftables, and the ‘Odyssey’ MVP Rankings With Joe House, J. Kyle Mann, and Jason Concepcion

22:08I'm just keeping an eye on that one. And they matched up twice in the summer league.

22:12Bill Simmons:Well, the only thing, the only real big picture thing left is wherever LeBron goes. And it's just, you know, I went on game over yesterday with Richard Max because I was in the office and I was there and I'm going on for 45 minutes. But the really red flag thing about this LeBron thing, which I don't really feel like is going to swing the title odds in any direction, at least for me, but it is notable that James Harden hasn't signed and Draymond hasn't signed. So you have two teams that are definitely going, uh, you know, golden state doing nothing is also doesn't mean nothing. It means they must feel like they're in this.

22:49Bill Simmons:So we'll see what happens with that. I still, I still hope it's gold state, but, um, I still have a feeling it's going to be Cleveland all along. I do have a house before we do the redraft. I had, I had a great email for you. this is from Harry, who did, he paid Conspiracy Bill, who's always available. Do you wear a beeper for that? No, but he's just, every time there's an email, Conspiracy Bill, Conspiracy Bill, Jossis. He mentioned Presti, OKC, Roster Crunch, they have to get rid of, they got rid of Isaiah Drew, they got rid of Aaron Wiggins, right? And then, we knew they were going to probably get rid of Lou Dort, which they did.

23:32Bill Simmons:They got rid of three second runners for him. Harry says, I 100 % believe Sam Presti sought out not one, but two Hawks deals to beef them up this season and knock their first round pick owned by San Antonio down a few spots. Very good. Pretty good. He stamped that one immediately. I liked it. Absolutely. I endorse this. It's not like he got a lot for Lou Dorr, right? He's got a couple seconds. I'm sure there were a few teams that would offer that but i wonder so you think presti is that devious sure anything they understand who their their nemesis is of course that doesn't even sound like conspiracy to me that just sounds like strategy i agree jay cam is right jay cam is right i want to go on record on lebron i think he's going to philadelphia just want to say get it out there oh wow i would bet anything against that okay i just want to be on record okay what do you want to bet?

24:27Let's bet something good.

24:28Bill Simmons:We'll bet a dinner that has food. Um, and then there's another conspiracy bill email. Stuart from Perth, Australia said, um, does conspiracy bill think Dumars was sent to the Pelicans by the NBA where he worked to make the Pelicans so bad that they would have to relocate to Seattle? Um, I was watching the movie major league and couldn't help but think they took notes watching on how to get a team relocated. What team goes 26 and 56 and literally does nothing in the offseason. It's a very solid point. It went 26 to 56 and did nothing other than DeAndre Jordan to an amazing contract. Yes, they did.

25:07That's not nothing. It's a bet on development. That's what it is. That is literally... Now, them going to Seattle makes no sense whatsoever because Seattle's going to get one of the expansion teams. But what markets are ripe for an NBA team? Seattle and Vegas obviously lead, But where should the Pelicans go? They should go somewhere.

25:27Bill Simmons:Honestly, Kansas City's, I think, a bigger factor than people. They just hosted World Cup. That city's built for like big events now. And they used to have basketball before. I think Kyle's Neck of the Woods is another one. I think Nashville, even though it's too close to Memphis, is possible. I wouldn't rule out St. Louis. I think there's a lot of cities. Like we never would have said Oklahoma City in the mid-2000s. You know, if you have hungry, local, rich people and you have some sort of arena, you can make a play for a basketball team. Conspiracy Bill got another one. Mike in New Orleans wanted to know if the Blazers owner, did Conspiracy Bill think the league wants to get back in Seattle, gave this guy the team he was going to force his way out and barge them to Seattle?

26:11Bill Simmons:I actually don't believe that one because I don't think the Seattle fans want Portland's team. I think they would rather have their own expansion team and start over. And they know what it's like to have your team ripped from you. And I don't think they want Portland's team. And I also don't think that's why he's doing this. I just think he's super cheap. And this is what he did with the Hurricanes. He has a specific method of he cut costs all over the place. And, you know, he's basically like, you guys should help me buy an arena. Or I might move. So how much do you want the Blazers here? I don't agree with what he's doing.

26:47Bill Simmons:It's absolutely the most cutthroat thing you can do, but I don't think there's some master plan. I just think the guy's cutthroat across the board and that's why he's handling it. Well, speaking of cutthroat, we're going to take a break. We are going to do our first redraft on the BS Podcast. I think since the 2018, we did a 2022 range. Is that 2023? We did it three years ago. You didn't do one since then? No, no. We did one in honor at Shark. So we're going to bring up in this one we're about to do. But when we come back, the 2020 NBA Redraft next. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

27:29Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. Tremphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur.

28:03Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible.

28:12Bill Simmons:Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimphiaradio.com. This episode is brought to you by TikTok. Did you know you can use TikTok to connect even more with the sports you love? It's not just highlights, it's everything around the game, including the sports community. Find breakdowns of classic basketball plays, deep dives on baseball stats, even videos on how athletes train and recover. There are people teaching strategy, sports, history, even ways to improve your jump shot. It's kind of like the biggest locker room ever and everyone's sharing what they know on TikTok.

28:50Bill Simmons:All right, so as you know, I remember nothing from 2020 or 2021. I have no memory at all. Apparently I did 14 NBA redraft podcasts. You guys were on a bunch of them. We did 14 on my podcast and on the Book of Basketball podcast where a lot of them aren't. It was super fun and never did them again. And during the summer, because there's absolutely nothing going on for the next couple of weeks, we're going to do a couple of redrafts. And I texted you guys and we talked about possibilities. And the one we landed on is the single weirdest draft in the history of the league, other than maybe 1986. What's weirder, 1986 or 2020 house?

29:27Bill Simmons:2020 is super weird. 1986 had like, not only the tragedy of the Lund Bias, but half the guys in that draft became drug guys. or, you know, it was like the most jinxed, weird draft ever, but we didn't know that it was just happening. 2020, we knew right away. So 2020 COVID draft takes place on November 18th, 2020. Let's start there. I forgot about that. Yeah, way after. I was thinking it was June. Yeah, that's right. Six weeks after the NBA finals in the bubble, which was even weirder, the season started five weeks later. They had no March Madness to study because there was no March Madness. they had no draft combine because they couldn't have draft combine um they had for the most part zoom interviews they had prospects only going one on zero workouts basically with masks on a lot of the times um these guys they went from getting ready for march madness to there's no more college basketball to i'm just going to work out by myself in a gym for four to five months basically they They kind of ramp up the process near the end.

30:34And they're basically house.

30:37Bill Simmons:They're just fucking grasping at straws. It's the only draft where we can honestly say NBA teams were just like us. They're just watching YouTube and just kind of piecing things together and guessing. You can't overstate how weird it was. I'm glad, you know, it's not fair to compare this to 1986. The whole world was upended. And every single element of, you know, an evaluation of talent for a professional sports league, it's kind of asinine in a way, except it's the business, it's the industry. There's no other way to do it. They did it. They did it. And I'm thrilled that they did it. I actually kind of loved the way that that season played out because we had so much basketball in our lives.

31:24There was no dead moment. You know, there was no, let's all take a breather. it went from wow it was really fun to have the bubble that was gave us something to look at and compare notes on and talk about yeah right into this super weird draft uh and then right into a season that began was it like christmas-ish right after christmas yeah i think there was a real

31:44Bill Simmons:physical toll on some of the players that lasted long in the playoffs and then had to start the season that was the only downside for the fans it was great because we had nothing going on it's like oh thank you i've got things to watch again well i remember the burnout among people covering it i remember when they came back you know granted the physical toll is a whole different thing but i just remember when they came back at christmas and then at the end of that season i guess extending it to summer league and free agency i just remember the fried look in people's eyes from from the toll of that because we were trying to stay busy during that gap where the season ended i remember we were doing all kinds of stuff like the redrafts and i did a bunch of historical stuff.

32:21Granted, we remember the, the wind in our sails with the last dance and all that stuff, man. I think one of the things with the last dance that people forget is how bad we needed that shit, man. I mean, like people were just so desperate for anything and that alone kept us busy. That big Jordan sort of sweeping wind that came in for a while there.

32:39Bill Simmons:Yeah. Riscilla and I were doing live podcasts after the two episodes of the last dance, like they were sporting events because we had literally nothing else going. So the actual draft, uh, When you look back at who the best player is, and we're going to do the redraft and people can hear it in real time. But I think it's the most off teams have been for who actually turned out to be the good players versus where they were drafted. Like, for instance, so in the actual draft, Edwards was one. Lamella was three. Tyrese Maxey was 21. Desmond Bain was 30. Right? Right. So Wiseman went to, and Wiseman is the guy I think to think about when you think about this draft, because they're basically going off three Memphis games and nothing else.

33:30Bill Simmons:And now you're going back to high school tape. And now you're just looking at raw tools. And it's one of those things where if we had had March Madness, I just think so much of this is different. Like what if Halberton goes on a run, you know, in the tournament and makes like the final four, the final eight, what if Wiseman gets knocked out in the first round? Um, what if Lamello's terrible? Oh no, Lamello was in New Zealand. Yeah. So that Lamello is even out on that. Um, what if, what if Edwards like gets knocked out in the first, like, I do think March Madness swings this stuff one way or the other, but in this case it didn't.

34:06Bill Simmons:And, uh, and, but Wiseman is the one Kyle that I think we had the toughest time trying to figure out. I went back, and our old friend Charks, who did all the draft grades after. And the words take Wiseman second and Charks writes, this is simultaneously the safest pick and biggest gamble at the top of the draft. Quality big men are easy to find in the modern NBA. Wiseman has to be elite to be worth going this high. So where did you stand when they took Wiseman? Did you feel like he had a chance to be elite? I remember having a similar sort of trepidation that Charks did granted because we were talking about the draft constantly around that time I had watched Wiseman a whole lot in high school coming up to that weird Memphis season the other thing too is just the fact that it was the Warriors making that pick that was the thing that made me the most suspicious because the things that are the most worried because the things that Wiseman needed to work on this the Warriors kind of conversation about them extending this window like house I was watching your face as Bill was talking about the Warriors potentially being in the playoffs and he had a like no fucking way look on his face but I mean at that point we were like hey I think there's still some more soap in that rag and there was like they went and won a title despite this not working out but the things that he needed to work on subsequently Kuminga the following year I think it was 21 I was looking at those dudes and just thinking man offensively raw.

35:35Absolutely not ready for the speed of the way the Warriors want to play. That worried me. And then you combine, it was a lot of fog. If you're projecting the tape, the college development that we didn't really get to see, even at the time, it was risky. I think I thought that it was, I thought that he could become a good player. I did not expect him to fall off a cliff the way that he did, and you know, not even in the league now.

35:58Bill Simmons:My biggest win from this draft was I absolutely loved Halliburton and thought He should have gone way higher than he did and went nuts about that the whole draft. So that was a huge W for me. My biggest loss was I liked the last pick for the Warriors. I was a great pick. Like passing center, unbelievable specimen. The guy a year ago would have been hands down the number one pick in the draft. And this is amazing that they got a franchise center. And it just didn't work out for a variety of reasons. But I think the biggest one is I don't I just don't think they had enough tape. and you start drafting the premise of a player versus what the actual player is.

36:36Bill Simmons:What did you think of it when that happened? At that point, the Warriors had engendered so much confidence and trust in a kind of approach to both player development, player acquisition, that I didn't know anything about Wiseman, but gave them the benefit of the doubt. But there is a through line all the way up to right now, this very moment. And my wild skepticism about the Warriors making the playoffs this upcoming season between missing on that pick and today, the end of Steph's career that we've been experiencing, lost seasons, missed playoffs. After they won the title, they did eke out one more title.

37:20So God bless them in 2022 with what they were able to put together. James Wise, an NBA champion. I feel like we're missing out on something because of the toll on Steph and the way that Steph's career is going to end. If that pick had been somebody solid, somebody credible, what would that have meant for the Warriors franchise and ultimately for Steph, who's really the only guy I care about? Bill, did you see the thing that I wrote in that draft guide? The specific thing that I said about Halliburton was like the league should be doing everything they can to not let this kid end up with Golden State.

37:59I specifically said that because he would have been perfect for their style of play.

38:03Bill Simmons:He was who I wanted them to take, but they could not trade back and they weren't going to take them at two. But I think they knew out of anybody in this top 12, that's the guy that if he's on our team would fit perfectly with us and could play on the ball, off the ball. but I don't, nobody wanted to, you know, they tried to trade back. Nobody was trying to trade up because nobody could figure out the top seven or eight in this draft, especially like Patrick Williams there at a Coro. Nobody could unlock LaMelo at all. The Warriors thought about LaMelo too. And I've talked about this before on the pod, but they had a zoom interview with him.

38:39Bill Simmons:That was so bad. Like they felt like he, you know, was tanking the interview not to go there. And I, He probably might have. That might have been what happened. I don't think he wanted to play for them. So they were kind of stuck. They weren't going to take Patrick Williams or Okoro. They weren't going to take Okongwu. They weren't going to take Killian Hayes. So if you can't trade back, I don't know what you do. So they took the swing with Wiseman, and they're still paying for it. Think about what an abandonment of philosophy. I've said this so many times. you get Steph under these circumstances where this guy is mis-evaluated in terms of where the league is going level to level and they get so lucky that Khan takes, you know, Johnny Flynn and Ricky Rubio ahead and just with its backward-facing thinking and then you get this opportunity to take this guy, Tyrese Halliburton and you say to yourself, well, two's too high.

39:34I just feel like anytime you have that type of conversation with yourself about a player where you're like, well, that's too high to take that guy. If you like that person, just take them. Figure out a way to get them, even if it's go back a couple spots. It's such a shocking, remarkable abandonment of philosophy that they would strike gold with Steph and then fail to see what happened there and then not take Tyrese Halliburton. He was so clearly going to be a good player.

40:00Bill Simmons:There's one thing that teams didn't like about him. I remember specifically one team in the top 10 telling me this. teams were worried he wouldn't be able to get his release off on his shot in the pros. And they're like in the college, fine. And the pros at that hitch, it just takes too long to unfurl. It's not going to happen. And, you know, I, I remember saying this at the time it goes in like, what the fuck do you guys want? Like the shot goes in. It's not like this is a long baseball swing that you get to the majors and you're not going to be able to catch up at 98. Like his shot was weird, but it It always went in and the advanced stats were unbelievable for him.

40:38Bill Simmons:You know, I remember Haral Bob talked about this. He was like doing everything possible to try to get Dallas to try to trade up, especially, you know, the biggest legacy of this draft is Halliburton falls and keeps falling and then ends up going to ironically Sacramento, a team that could never do anything right in the draft. So he goes 12. So to recap the top 15 for people, Edwards goes to Minnesota. Wiseman Golden State, number two. Lamello Ball to Charlotte. Then we have the Patrick Williams, Isaac Okoro, Shit Sandwich Combo, 4-5. Chicago-Cleaven, who then ended up getting traded for each other a couple years later.

41:15Bill Simmons:And both teams still unhappy after that. Okonwu at six. Killian Hayes at seven. Shout out to our friend KOC, but this was... KOC's had so many wins. He still carries to Killian Hayes like a scarlet letter. this was his worst one but he's also had a lot of good ones Obi Toppin 8 to the Knicks and that really should have been a Halliburton team first of all Detroit taking Killian Hayes over Tyrese Halliburton as Fireball and everyone did get fired Obi Toppin versus Halliburton when the Knicks they didn't have Brunson yet oh man they needed playmaking if I remember correctly at that point he was perfect for them he did though In fairness, Toppin felt like the surest thing at the moment.

42:04What did you write about Toppin, JKM? I wasn't writing the guide at that point, but he was just crazy. He was a little older. He played four years at Dayton, I remember. He was just this elite athlete that we thought could turn into a big-time defender. There's more stuff to unpack in relation to Halliburton specifically. I think that's interesting as we re-rank these guys. Kevin and Charks were doing the writing at that point on the guys.

42:29Bill Simmons:got it got it got it i think sharks had uh hold on i'm calling it up sharks had a great draft guy he basically all the a's he handed out were the right a's except for um except for uh killing hayes i'm killing that was the bad one yeah i remember he said something about top and like he's the oldest and most ready pro player but can't guard anybody like he's athletic there's clearly a way for him to succeed in the nba but just remember he will not be able to guard anybody in the court and that's how it bore out. So Toppen went to the Knicks. At number nine, your wizard's house, Denny Avdia. Tremendous.

43:09Bill Simmons:Some pick in retrospect. One of the best of the decade. It's too bad you gave him away four years later. It was a franchise in transition. The pick was right. At number ten, the worst and most egregious mistake in this draft. An incredible what if, a fireable offense. Phoenix takes Jalen Smith instead of taking Tyrese Halliburton when they already had Chris Paul and they had Devin Booker. And they go on to make the finals anyway in 2021. And Halliburton could have been the third guard in that team. And I'm guessing he swings the finals if he's on that. I feel like that's worth one of those six games.

43:56Bill Simmons:If you just go from Jalen Smith, who you're getting nothing for to Tyrese Halliburton as a rookie coming off the bench and being able to, it was terrible and it happened. I can't believe they did it. So take him 10. And then Devin Vassell is 11, which I was okay with just because I felt like he dropped two. I would take in Halliburton there too. And then finally Sacramento 12. And then after that, the draft gets weird. Kira Lewis to New Orleans Aaron Neesmith to Boston at 14 Cole Anthony at 15 to Orlando Stewart at 16 to Portland and then we can end on number 17 Poku who became an incredible source of comedy all the way around but there's more stuff coming let's do the redraft which one of you guys wants the number one pick jkm can have it all right so we'll go we'll go snake fashion um jkm goes one house goes two i'll take three and four and then we'll snake it back and we'll see who can come up with the best team so who is your number one pick in the 2020 redraft kyle man this uh this was an interesting back and forth because i'd put these guys in tiers there are Two guys in my top tier.

45:19Anthony Edwards is ultimately who I'm going to pick, although I will say this is very, very close for me. And the only thing that tipped it Ant's way is the fact that I'm not sure that Halliburton's going to be, I don't know what he's going to be after this injury. As I was sitting down and kind of looking at their paths as players, like developmentally, they're really interesting sides of an offensive coin where Halliburton came into the league as this like super, super advanced passer, processor, who we were like, if he can score the ball, we just weren't sure about it. We were like, well, you know, we know he has all these gifts, but if he's going to be a superstar, and I don't feel like he even answered that question until like a few years into his NBA career.

45:58There was still doubt about it. It was, you know, once he got to the Pacers, it was like, okay, this guy is a system in and of himself. And I don't think you can say that necessarily about Ant. You know, I don't know that Ant's impact on a team like chemistry wise and the way he plays. I don't think he elevates and adds value to other places the same way that Halliburton does. That said, Ant is one of the best, you know, he's, I think in this class, he's the leader in made threes. He's, when he wants to, he can be an on-ball terror. He's one of the most athletic, creative scorers in the league.

46:27He's ultra competitive. It's very, very close, but just tilting towards Ant health-wise is what I'll ultimately do here, even though it's a pretty tough choice. But those two guys, to me, are in the top tier.

46:40Bill Simmons:I had that as well. Ant, two conference finals, 26 a game in the playoffs, two second-team All-NBAs on the 24 Olympic team. House, not 25 years old left yet, has scored over 10 ,000 points, 10 ,854. That's a list of seven guys who scored 10 ,000 points before they turned 25. The other guys in that list are LeBron James, Luka, T-Mac, Kevin Durant, Kobe, and Carmelo. Nice list. Pretty good list. Yeah, so he's on his way. He's averaging 25-4-5 for his career. Charks wrote that he's an elite athlete with a better feel for the game than advertised. All the physical tools necessary to become an all-star caliber wing.

47:25Bill Simmons:And I actually think he's probably a notch above that. He's been twice now, he's been a franchise guy in a Final Four team, which I think is notable. So did you have him first? Oh, what kind of question is that? Yes, he's facing the league shit. I mean, Kyle is waffling. No, I think it's debatable. I really do. Let's set some parameters here because this will factor into... I have my selection for two overall, but are we basing this on at the time, what the team needed, the trajectory of the player? Are we basing this on kind of now we have a lot of information about these players and we know what these players have in front of them.

48:11Bill Simmons:We're in a time machine. We're going back to November 18th, 2020, but we know everything that's happened the last six years. So what do you do? It's still Edwards. It's not even close to me, to me. And the reason for that is because he is on another level to me in terms of the force of will. I mean, Halliburton was a revelation in last year's playoffs. absolutely positively. He finally got to the stage. He finally ascended to where he could show what he brought to the table. All of those intangibles, all of those shots at the end of game. But Edwards, he accelerated Minnesota because of who he was when he arrived with that dog in him, with the incredible charisma, a leader at his young age, taking the team.

49:04Now, I mean, there's a lot of leadership qualities in Halliburton as well. But if you're trying to build, you want a cornerstone for a franchise, Edwards, to me, a lot easier call than Halliburton. That's the way I think about it.

49:18Bill Simmons:If Halliburton doesn't get hurt in game seven in Indiana, beats OKC, and he just plays last season and he's fine, is he the number one pick in this? It's an awesome conversation. It is an incredible conversation. I think he'd have to be at that point, but we'll never know. It's a great what if. Well, you're going to take him second, I'm guessing? I am, but I just want to make a case for Maxie, which is... I'll take Maxie third and we can talk about it. Halberton at number two. Best guy in a finals team already. 38 playoff games in 24 and 25. 18-5-8. Some incredible clutch heroics. And then one of the saddest moments in the history of the league when he gets hurt in game seven.

49:58Bill Simmons:We talked about all the what-ifs with him in the draft. Golden State at two. Detroit seven. Knicks eight. Phoenix ten. Um, there's another, what if we're Philly could have traded Ben Simmons for him instead of how it turned out where Halbert goes with the Sacramento, Indiana straight up. Philly could have been in on that and ended up with, you know, Sabonis going into Indiana or whatever it turned out, or they could have just done the straight up and send Ben Simmons to, um, Sacramento. And you could have had Maxie who's going to be the third guy in this draft with, with Halberton. Philly also could have had Shea and Mikael Bridges, if I'm not mistaken.

50:38They've got some pretty tough draft winners. Yeah, they have a lot of what it is. I mean, they literally drafted Mikael Bridges. They did draft him. They took him and shipped him away. He put a Philly hat on.

50:49Bill Simmons:Sharks wrote that he's the perfect, this is Halberton, he's the perfect analytical selection. An uber-efficient scorer who never takes bad shots or turns the ball over and who also racks up defensive stats. Can I make another case for you? Go ahead. I've cut off the charts. My bad, my bad. No, we're done. If you look at the way, when I was going back and looking at these guys and how we think about them now, and you look at Neesmith, granted, I don't know if it's necessarily as true about Neesmith as it is about Obi Toppin, Halliburton affects other players' value in a way that is similar to like a Steve Nash.

51:26Totally. it's a quality that very few guys have. And I think any situation that he comes into, I don't think he's as hard to build around because his.5-ness just shines a light. He shares the light and it doesn't have to be shining brightly on him all the time. So even though Ant scores more, I think that their offensive endpoint is the same because I think that Halliburton makes everybody better because he's able to make reads and play this like 0.5 style where he gets off the ball fast. And he produces as much offense as Ant does, I think, in the end. I think the stats back that up. So I think it's a lot closer than you guys do, really.

52:07Bill Simmons:I have Maxie at three. He went 21st in this draft, which is incredible. Last three years, 27 points a game, six assists, 45, 36, 88 percentages. So in this draft, Minnesota passed on 17 and taken him and traded back. they could add Edwards and Maxie in the same draft which is out of control OKC had the 17th pick and took Poku over him they could have had Maxie with SGA Brooklyn at 19 could have taken him and put him with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant that would have been weird and then the crazy one to me house Miami had 20 coming off the 2020 finals and I think I can't remember if they lost or he was hurt or whatever but they just could have taken him and added him to that 2020 finals team.

52:53Bill Simmons:They did not do that. And he ended up, uh, being the 21st pick Charks loved it. Called him a combo guard. He could play on and off the ball. Great combination of team fit and best player available. And he said, the only reason he's not a lottery pick is that he's six foot three and won't be a primary ball handler in the NBA. Well, it turned out he's a primary ball handler in the NBA. He fixed that one. So why did you almost take him second house? because he feels to me like he's just scratching the surface of who he can be. That's why, because I feel like, you know, these guys, when we're trying to, you know, parse the top of this, are there still levels to what they're capable of?

53:34And Maxie, to me, is the easiest to say, yes, there's still a whole nother. He just played the most minutes of his entire career, was an absolute warrior through all of that. Yeah. single-handedly drug a team that had no business whatsoever winning 45 games. But the combination of the incredible good luck the Sixers had, those dogs with Vijay Edgecombe. I thought you were going to say Jalen Brown. Well, that wasn't good luck. That's your GM, the Stevens. That's his player talent evaluation. But I would say what Maxie showed us, that there is a whole nother element to his game. And I mean, I think this is part of why I just love this upcoming Philadelphia season.

54:23Him with like the innings that he and Jalen Brown and Vijay Edgecombe are going to be able to eat together creates so much room for Joel Embiid to be whoever he's going to be in whatever capacity he needs to be. And it's also why I think it makes the most sense for LeBron. LeBron could land there, play 45, 50 games, however many nights, Friday nights or Saturday nights, are on Prime and NBC. Sunday night NBC, oh, it's a LeBron game. Here's Philly. I understand, but I'm just making the case out of all the situations. It's the one that makes the most sense to me. I made the same case, House. I think the basketball fits fun in Philly with LeBron.

54:59He got all these guys buzzing around him that he can feed with Vijay and with Maxie. And those guys tilt towards scoring. And with Jalen, I think it kind of makes a lot of sense to me. but you think it won't happen, Bill.

55:10Bill Simmons:If he's going basketball fit, you go to Minnesota, I think. That's a team where he could actually, like they could actually win the title if he went there. He's not going there. He's not playing with LaMelo Ball. I know. He doesn't do clowns. He'd be choking him like Homer, choking Bart half the season, just like LaMelo's neck. There's two reasons I think it would be fun if he went to Miami. One is that I think that's a terrible fit of all those guys together. And two, they're annoying fans they're even more annoying media will be going nuts that they think they're going to win the title. And it's going to be really fun to watch that crash and burn.

55:45Bill Simmons:More annoying media. This is my favorite. What a hater. It's not an annoying media? What are you talking about? We just slipped that in there. It's the most annoying media. They know it. This is a hater. This is my favorite version. Same time, Simmons. They know it. That's the only way they get attention. What a hater. I love this. I have the number four pick as well. Denny Abdiah will be my pick at number four. He went ninth overall. He's an all-star last year, 24-7-7. Used to be on the Wizards. To House's credit, he always said Denny Abdiah was good. He was always a fan. Never understood why he didn't have the ball more and why they didn't use him, kind of unleash him.

56:25Bill Simmons:And then when he went to Portland, was like, I bet he's going to be really good there. So, House, take a bow. Thank you. I appreciate that. You always like Denny. Let Denny take the bow. I mean, he's become the best version of himself. It'll be super interesting this upcoming season for them, especially with this crazy-ass owner. Like, you know, will he get that same usage? It was really important. We saw it in those playoff games for him to be the on-ball, the creative playmaker. How does that coexist with Ja Morant? That's a... I thought they should have traded for Jalen. I don't know why they didn't, but if the choices were what they did versus like maybe moving some of the resources differently and getting Jalen and trying to, I just think Jalen and Denny would have been kind of a bitch to play against.

57:10Bill Simmons:Wow. These two physical downhill forwards that night after night, I think would have, would have been an attack. So I had, there were two other guys I thought about there, but I thought with the way Denny, with the arrow pointing up with him and he had the best season out of anybody left in this, um, in this redraft. So how's you have five? Who do you have? I'll take LaMelo here. I think that that's, that's, that's fair. I mean, I gotta say he was not next on my board, but go ahead. Well, the offensive engine proposition and we get to see it. We're going to now, is it true? I saw news reports.

57:48Is LaMelo Ball living with Anthony Edwards right now? Is that accurate? That's the best thing I've ever heard. There's some news out there suggesting...

57:58Bill Simmons:Even if it's not true, put it out there. As LaMelo gets himself sort of oriented around his new thing, those guys are spending some time together. If that's true and there's not a camera involved, then what are we even doing? I hope there's a driver involved. well it could be Anthony Edwards or his own driver House Lamella Ball played 52 plus games twice out of six years zero playoff wins yes six years 303 games 93-92 minutes by the way we should have mentioned this earlier way more fun if Golden State just says fuck it and takes them second right like we know you don't want to be here but that's fine we'll figure it out we're going to put you in we're going to basically make you what Jordan Poole became as this kind of heat check guy off the bench, instant offense.

58:48Bill Simmons:Let's see if we can fit you into our system. And it just would have been a fun experiment. I don't even know if it would have worked. Who knows? Well, they had to have had an opinion. You know, they, they, they clearly consulted, you know, the vets in the room. Do we think that we can take a, a, a spin with a, with a teenager and it's not just a teenager, but like, Do you really think they consulted anyone? I don't think they did. No? I don't. To me, the LaMelo thing was more, he played in New Zealand. His family was weird. The family part was still very in play. It's easy to forget. That was still a big point.

59:25Bill Simmons:Is this guy an N1 player or a real player? There was some real stuff six years ago. Do we need this circus? Yeah, can this guy be a professional? Which, by the way, we're still not 100 % positive. So, House, you're in on LaMelo here. Would you have taken him higher? Would you have taken him four? No, no, no, no, no, no. He's not. I mean, Denny Abdiah, for where he seems to be headed, I would like to invest in him more than Lamella. Sharks had some interesting thoughts on him. 6 '7 point guard with an elite passing ability who will be a triple-double threat from day one. The question is whether he will ever be a threat to make threes instead of just take them.

1:00:04Bill Simmons:Bell will likely be an inefficient offensive player for the first few years of his career, but he will make everyone around him better. All true. I mean, last year when he played, which was only 28 minutes a game, but he did all the offensive stats, the eye tests. I thought he had a really good season for them last year, but they were very careful about how they used him. And Minnesota's not going to be able to be as careful. It's going to be like, the 28 minutes a game is out. You're up to 35 now, and we're going to need 70, and we're going to need two, three, or four rounds from you in the playoffs.

1:00:37Bill Simmons:So I have no idea if he can do it. I wonder if Charlotte in the playing game just saw something. They just opened the patient and saw cancer in terms of their chances to be like a, because the rim pressure is the thing. Cause I had written, you know, dove on a lot of these guys. And I was, I wrote down that LaMelo, you know, Charks mentioned the shooting. And I think he's proven himself over time where, let's see, nine players this past year attempted 300 or more threes off the dribble. and only Jamal Murray had a higher percentage than LaMelo in that group. So the wildness was good. But just getting to the rim, I re-watched some of the Orlando game and it's just like you can't have that guy as your primary option.

1:01:18And maybe Charlotte thinks that they're not going to lose a ton with their passing and stuff with Miller and Kahn. But he was 46.4 % from two. And inside the arc, he was like 50. Like at the restricted area, he was like 51%. It's really bad. So you're not getting free throws. He just can't be your primary option. So I kind of wonder if he's closer to Jamal Murray, honestly, in terms of like what we should expect from him, like star status wise.

1:01:41Bill Simmons:Listen, there's so many fascinating things about this season that is now one, two, three months away. Lamello playing on Minnesota with real expectations is in that. I mean, that you have Jalen Brown in Philly. You're going to have wherever LeBron ends up. You're going to have like the new era, Luka and Lakers and Kessler and the snowtime Lakers. the Celtics with pot. There's this league, I don't know, over and over again. Dude, you didn't even mention the snow globe. The rookies. All the rookies. It's eggplant emoji time, bro. I mean, right now, mid-July, I'm ready. Can't wait. You know what I'm really ready for, though?

1:02:20Bill Simmons:Football.

1:02:24Bill Simmons:I can't wait. I can't wait to put some bets down. Kyle Mann has two picks in a row, Kyle Mann. I was going to say, House, have you thought at all about how you guys let go of Avdia, this big physical wing who gets downhill and you just basically reset. Like, DeBansa is just sort of the spiritual reset of what you all would have had. So you're kind of, it turned out pretty well for you. I'm sure you're aware of that. Yeah, you tanked so you could basically get Denny Avdia again. Well, that's the basketball gods shining their good light down on this franchise for that sound decision-making because the franchise wasn't ready for this version of Denny.

1:03:01It wouldn't have not have made any sense. he would not have risen to these heights. He was being held back by the, you know, the direction that the franchise was going. And I give the front office credit for recognizing he was on a different timeline than the franchise was on. They need to be building up with these guys that are all between the age of 19 and 21. We have six or seven of them now, and they're all in the same contract. That's why, you know, we'll make fun of Trey Young's contract for the balance of the season. but Trey Young's contract, Anthony Davis, the Anthony Davis extension that Washington will probably pay for.

1:03:36It doesn't really matter because they have, everybody else is on a rookie contract. They have to reach a certain floor salary floor as required by the CBA. The funniest moment of the season is going to be the third,

1:03:48Bill Simmons:fourth, fifth or sixth game this season. Trey Young's going to have like 39 points and hit a big three and do this with the wizards Jersey. And house is going to be like, we're back, baby. I already have his jersey. I mean, you know. And we're going to be studying the still frames and in the background. Yeah. AJ's just going to have his hands on his shoulders looking off into the distance. I'm going to be magnifying us on that. The Blazers should bring Moran off the bench. I just wanted to throw that in. My next two, I have Jaden McDaniels. He was fifth on my board. That's fine. Jaden McDaniels.

1:04:22Fifth on mine as well, Kyle, man. Very fair. This is, we get into a team. My second tier, I wouldn't say, was playoff-level primaries. That was Maxi and Navidia. Now we're into elite specialists. Yeah, McDaniels, he became a much better catch-and-shoot player from three this past year. He's one of the most dynamic. He's really, really good off the ball, chasing defensively, like navigating screens and things like that. Very slinky and spindly and explosive. But he's also very good on the ball. His matchup difficulty consistently through the roof. And he's also just one of the meanest fuckers in basketball.

1:04:56If you just watch his face, I sometimes just want to pat him on the back and be like, Jaden, dude, it's cool, man. It's all right. He's just such a maniacal competitor. I love the dude. He's one of my favorite players in the league.

1:05:08Bill Simmons:We should be able to vote on that when we do awards at the end of the year. There should be a meanest fucker first team. Well, he revealed that in that Spurs series. Joker's got a dark side. It's just like, are you okay? Yeah, McDaniels definitely is a mean motherfucker. That Spurs series pulled it out of him in a way. Like, it was personal for him against Denver as well. The thing that I wonder, and I will wonder this entire upcoming season, is why Minnesota didn't just run it back. And I do get the idea of moving on from Randall. Sending this all offseason. Like, getting rid of Randall is kind of fine.

1:05:43You can kind of run it back without Randall. Although, speaking of inning eaters, he has been pretty durable. He has played. and giving them minutes over the court. But it's a very weird decision for them to go in the direction that they've gone, especially in the face of a Wemby West. That's the thing. I hated it. I still hate it.

1:06:04Bill Simmons:I'm always going to hate it. I thought they overreacted to some injuries and some bad luck and underreacted to the fact that they had made two conference finals in a row and had a pretty young team for the most part. McDaniels, a couple of things with him. Charks wrote this. the biggest surprise of the night might be that the Thunder traded McDaniels instead of keeping them for himself, for themselves. He could have been on OKC. He's like the quintessential Presti guy. The Lakers ended up with the 28th pick and traded it with Danny Green for Dennis Schroeder. And then OKC flipped the pick after that.

1:06:42Bill Simmons:So the Lakers also could end. Now, it took them a couple of years to get going. And then the other piece, and I certainly made fun of him at the time when When Minnesota gave up all that stuff for Rudy Gobert and then put out, they were adamant about keeping Jaden McDaniels. It's like, oh, cool. Congrats. You just gave up 100 first-round picks. Turned out to be the right move. I'll take the L. Who did you have for the other pick, Kyle, man? I was going to note an inefficiency, I think, that was going on among Washington, which is where he played wings. They played zone a lot, weirdly, for those few years, and they happen to have two of the best perimeter defensive prospects in Batiste Thibel and Jade McDaniels.

1:07:22So I think that was maybe a reason why he fell. Who knows? I really liked him in that draft. My next guy is Devin Vassell. Actually, yeah. I'm going two-way guys who can shoot the shit out of the ball. Had a pretty interesting arc where when they were tanking and rebuilding, his primacy has gone down as this team has gotten better, but I actually think it's the sweet spot for him where that stuff was all invaluable for him, but I'd like him a lot. I mean, he's a shot maker. Going to be central to what they're doing going forward on a championship-level team. I think we've seen that now.

1:07:55Bill Simmons:Sharks said he was the best 3-and-D prospect in this year's draft and has more Sharks-loved him. More shot-created talent than he showed in college. I was really surprised the Knicks didn't take him. I thought they were going to end up with him. Alright, so we have, so far, we have Edwards, Halliburton, Maxie, Avdia, Lamello, Jaden McDaniels, and Devin Vassell as our top seven. And Desmond Bain, he's like, I have to have another chip on my shoulder? I went 30 in this draft. You guys are going to disrespect me again? Are you taking him here, House? I am not. You're not? I'm sorry. This is so disrespectful.

1:08:33Who are you taking? I'm taking a Kongwu. I really feel like that guy's got, you know, there's a ceiling yet to be explored. I had him lower on my board just for the record.

1:08:43Bill Simmons:I get it. I get it. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm taking him at eight. The problem I have with Bain is just watched a lot of him in a playoff series and on a team where just felt like that impact should have been more. You know, the. On Orlando. Plenty of things going on with Orlando. Nice fit where they needed him. Yeah. Yes. He it should have been a wonderful fit. There is a reason that the forecast for Orlando was upper tier of the Eastern Conference and 50 plus wins. And I didn't see it every night from him. I went to watch Washington play Orlando and he played significant minutes in that game.

1:09:29Was it a you forgot he was out there performance? The Wizards beat Orlando the night that I went. In fact, it was right on the precipice of the Wizards trading CJ McCollum because it was the Wizards' fifth win in seven games. It's starting to get too good. They're like, wait a minute, hold up.

1:09:45Bill Simmons:So last five years, he was 21-5-5, 39 % from three. And that was his calling card in the draft was he's going to be a good three-point shooter. He turned out to be a way better player. I mean, when you think about it, the Grizzlies take him 30. They get five years out of him in some playoff series. Then they flip him for four first-round picks. So that's like, if you're like a, I don't know, a stockbroker or a hedge fund person and you're buying low on something and then selling high, that's like the ultimate value you ever could have gotten for somebody. But I think he's a little better than house.

1:10:18Bill Simmons:I can't, I can't say he's been on the perfect team the last couple of years. Like we've still never really seen him with a normal type of point guard. I speaking of, uh, well, I'm going to take him here at, at, uh, at 10 and then I, oh no, is it 10? Yeah. Nine. Nine. At nine. And then I'm going to take Peyton Pritchard at 10. Okay. 26. That's who I had next. 26 pick in the draft. A little bit controversial. It was like a Danny Ainge heat check pick. They had, the Celtics had 14 and 26 in this draft coming off a 2020 making the conference. I think they made the conference finals. And it felt like this was going to be a really important draft for their depth.

1:11:01Bill Simmons:Pritchard took them a couple of years. I always liked him more than it seemed like the coaches liked him. And it was always unclear why he wasn't getting the car keys a little bit more. And I think the team liked him because they gave him a contract even before he had kind of become who he became. And then he just became, you know, one of the best bench guards in the league. Last year, moved into a whole different level where he was 17 a game and is really one of the best get into the lane guard scorers. we have in the league, which is just weird. He's a little hit or miss. There's a question whether there's like another, is there a second leap for him, a la Jalen Brunson leaving Dallas?

1:11:43Bill Simmons:I don't think so. But there's really good stats with him. Jarks was a big fan. Jarks said, should instantly be an excellent backup point guard, has the confidence and skill to knock down shots in big playoff games. So nice job by him. But anyway, so I have Bain and Pritchard, and now it's starting to get a little dicey house. Yeah, and I recognize my role in this podcast today as a little bit of an outlier with some of my perceptions. There's no wrong picks in a redraft. I'm valuing... Stand strong, house. Some size here. Well, I mean, I didn't really make... I loved Okonwu where I took him because I think that his flexibility, what he adds to a team in terms of front court depth, and he shot, you know, he averaged two threes a game and he shot 38 % from three.

1:12:33So that's floor spacing, especially for that Atlanta team. And they really, really need that. Are you taking beef stew right here? Is that what you're telling us? I am taking beef stew. That's exactly right. I sure am. You know me better than anybody. You're fucking A right. I'm taking beef stew.

1:12:45Bill Simmons:I had him either, him or one other guy that I'm sure Kyle's going to take. But beef stew went 16th in this draft. Was an excellent bench big guy. And then really from the fight last year on, just got weird with him in Detroit. There's an athletic article talking about he got into it with the coach during the playoff series and he only played 11 minutes a game i think in their playoff series so something funky happened and then they basically dumped him gave him away it'd probably be like a shorter article to like write like who he hasn't gotten into it with right it'd be better because he's gotten into it with everybody from from what i understand i mean honestly san antonio should got it's exactly who san antonio needed they needed a fuck you guy on their team and he's a fuck you and a half guy so memphis is gonna have him he's gonna fit in perfectly with them and uh that couldn't have worked out better i didn't mind the pick house who do you have next pal uh i have aaron needsmith next yeah i did good good player good player play drafted by boston isn't that right yeah he just couldn't too many dudes right yeah i had a a couple jokes about in tweets and podcasts i always liked them and i felt like They completely marginalized him.

1:13:57Bill Simmons:It's a good example of bad team, wrong fit, where you'd go to the games and he would just kind of run up and down and stand in the corner and do nothing. They didn't trust him to do anything. He never knew when he was going to play or not. His minutes were getting yanked around. He just had no confidence. And he goes to Indiana and becomes this awesome 3 and D guy. And people think the Halliburton game was the Halliburton game, but it was really the Neesmith game. Halliburton made the famous shot in the game, but it was Neesmith making like four he checked threes and proved himself as somebody who could play in a finals at a high level, guard the best players in the other team.

1:14:33Bill Simmons:That's the key. Yeah, he's a real team. That's why he really deserves to be here. Well, this next pick will be interesting. It's starting to drop off, Kyle. Who do you have? Let's see. This is my, these are my starters, my playoff starters. And my next one is, and I'm a little waffly on this one, But Emmanuel Quickly was my next pick. I had him as well. 50-50. Yeah. Yeah. Funny because, you know, Quickly when he was traded from the Knicks was still like ascendant. And, you know, everybody was like, okay, well, this guy's on a rocket just going upwards. And then has a couple seasons in a row where he misses a lot of time.

1:15:11And then he comes back and plays. It just has a really quiet season this past year. So I don't know if the star bet is still there with him. I don't know if the star confidence is still there as much as it was with him. They gave him a gigantic, crazy contract. But he's a starter player. He's a good shooter. I don't know that I'm going to run my offense through him like maybe people hoped that they would. But probably already said too much about him, too quickly, honestly.

1:15:33Bill Simmons:Well, no, there's one other thing. He got a stupid contract. So he's in the worst contracts draft every year. And then you start to hang that around your collar. They have this dumb contract. But he's still a playoff guy who can come off the bench. And, you know, he just shouldn't make$30 million a year. They missed him. I mean, he couldn't play in that playoff series this year. That's the lingering taste, which makes him, you know, at least for me when I was looking through, it's like, can I? But when you look at his resume, for the most part, he's played a lot of basketball. He missed like, you know, two-thirds of whatever that season was two years ago.

1:16:06But otherwise, you know, he's between 65 and low 70s in terms of the number of games played. Yeah, he's a net positive for me.

1:16:16Bill Simmons:I had dinner with Doc last night. He was talking about how he always liked to have one guy, one guard come off the bench, like the Eddie House, Lou Williams type that was just like, no shot is a bad shot. I'm just firing it up. And he was like, I always loved those guys. I would never tell them it was a bad shot. I would just kind of take them out if they didn't have it. But I would always tell them, go, go, go. I think quickly, if Toronto's good, quickly could be one of those guys, right? He comes in. If he doesn't have it, he doesn't have it. if he does have it, you can ride it for six, seven minutes.

1:16:50Bill Simmons:I think there was a moment there when we felt like maybe he was more than that, but I don't know if he is, but it's fine. He's probably a two and a ones body. You know, he likes to score and that's kind of, that's his destiny. I think I'm taking a OB top in here and he's really the last guy that I think we know for sure could play in a top seven of a really good playoff team because we saw in Indiana two years ago. He was really valuable for them. I like him and especially seeing him in person was not afraid of the moment guy, which I think for he's an underside. I don't even know. He's a four.

1:17:26Bill Simmons:Is he five? Who fucking knows? He can't really guard anyone, but he plays really hard and I think he feeds off the crowd and I just thought he was a really good bench guy for them. House, would he... Do I have another pick? Oh yeah, I do. I have two. wow this gets really hard um wait did house get his turn like does he get his two in a row no i don't get two in a row because where i am right snake yeah i get two in a row and i'm kind of screwed now um well there's only a couple picks left i have uh this is my last pick oh man I can't believe I'm at it. There's two guys that are really good. Why am I agonizing over this?

1:18:10Bill Simmons:I'll take Sadiq Bae here. Oh, wow. That's fair. Yeah. I have two other guys. I don't hold it against him that he got hurt. Okay. I like his game. I thought, you know, he's buried on that terrible Pelicans team last year. And I thought he actually played well for them. I thought he did. I thought a playoff team could have not only traded for him, but he could have really helped them. and it just wasn't meant to be, I guess. But I've always liked him. I think he's a tough wing. I think he's got a little fuck you in him and it's not his fault he got hurt. So that's my next pick. I like it. He could still help somebody.

1:18:49I will take Isaiah Joe because I feel like that's a guy. Here's the skill that he possesses. This was the fourth consecutive season that he shot north of 40 % from three. That's an important skill in the NBA. That's,

1:19:10Bill Simmons:that's a guy. I wish I had taken them. That was a good pick. I wondered if you might. That's a good one. Well, the thing is we just don't know, right? We'll go on Detroit this year. Can he play 25 to 27 minutes a game? Can he shoot 42 %? Can he actually be somebody they look for in the last two minutes of a game? We have no answers for him because we've never really seen him in big moments. Who's your last pick here, Kyle? If I know Isaiah Joe, he's going to make threes. Yeah, he's been one of the better volume shooters in the league. He's been great. That's a good skill. Yeah. This is, I mean, there's only like two guys left that I would take.

1:19:47But for me, it's between Sam Merrill and Paul Reed. I'll lean Sam Merrill here just because we've seen him play in the playoffs. it really really falls off though here this we get to the guys who like are on the roster optimistic and on the roster pessimistic those are my next two years so but Merrill is a guy I'm just like runs a pick and roll can make shots he's dynamic he's smart plays hard yeah I had him

1:20:15Bill Simmons:here too I he was 60 in this draft house um all right so guys that didn't get taken Cole Anthony which this would have been shocking two years ago that he didn't get drafted out of the league he's basically out of the league didn't make it he was the 15th pick playoff paul was the other one paul reed yeah b-ball paul b-ball paul i'm screwing up my nicknames no well you can call him playoff playoff number 58 pick but we've at least seen him playing in playoff series and being um somewhat relevant and then here's what we have for the not drafted wise been at number two Patrick Williams at number four is a$90 million contract right now, not drafted.

1:20:56Bill Simmons:I never understood the Patrick Williams thing, even as it was happening in 2020 with the draft. It was like, he's a physical wing, but he can't shoot. But if he ever learns how to score, like it's one thing when it's like a Caleb Wilson, is he going to house his stroke going to be five years from now? But when it's like, this guy can't score, but if he could score, It's like that usually never works out. Same thing for Isaac Okoro, who I thought was going to be better as like a defensive shutdown guy. I did too. He's just not. Killing Hayes at seven. Jalen Smith at 10. I think if we had gone 20 picks, maybe he gets taken.

1:21:31Bill Simmons:He's turned into at least a backup big. Kira Lewis at 15. There was a moment when it seemed like he was going to be the fastest guy in the league and a great change of pace guy. It just never happened for him. he went into the Pelicans volcano Poku at 17 who I think could have gotten a championship ring in 25 for his incredible tanking exploits when they turned the entire offense over to him for 30 games one of the funniest tanking moments of all time Josh Green at 18 precious Achua at 20 who is still playing he's virgin on having moments but never totally Zeke Nagy at 22 Xavier Tillman at 35 I think if we did this three years ago it would have gotten drafted but his knees went on him unfortunately how many players in the league are a senior he's Xavier Tillman's senior and he seemed like he was 40 years old when he came into the league I'm trying to think how many seniors there are in the league and then the last one we could have drafted was Nick Richards at 42 I think the draft was 25 picks he's somebody who we've seen play on different teams and get minutes poor Najee Marshall undrafted in this draft and undrafted in the NBA draft in 2020 alright so Kyle if we had to grade this draft overall like a like a B plus we have three franchise guys in this draft we had Edwards Halberton Lamello who are all franchise guys I mean I'm sorry Edwards Maxey and Halberton franchise guys on teams that could make a final four with those guys as their best guys So to me, that's a hugely successful draft.

1:23:14Bill Simmons:And then you throw in a bunch of the role players. This is for as weird as the COVID draft was. I think it's a B+. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I have Edwards and Halliburton a tier above Maxie and Avdia, but it's just sort of like, these are contending level franchise players who are worthy of max contracts. And I think in any draft, if you can get that, it's just the depth. It's not great. It's really funny to think about back what we were thinking. we were going into that draft, it's a funny time machine that this is the only COVID time machine that I'm willing to go into willingly. House, what's your grade for this draft?

1:23:50Yeah, I think it's a solid B because when I look at how many all NBA

1:23:59recognitions are we going to get out of this draft, then I think it's like a dozen ultimately. I think we'll get to, by the time these guys are done, you add up those top sort of four guys, I think we'll get to around 12 all-NBA teams out of Maxie and Halliburton. We're about five or six now, right?

1:24:19Bill Simmons:Yeah, we have five All-Stars. We have three guys who've made an all-NBA team. We have one guy who led a team to the finals. And we have three NBA champs. Can you name the three?

1:24:35Wiseman got a ring for Golden State, didn't he? James Wiseman. Peyton Pritchard. Peyton Pritchard.

1:24:43Bill Simmons:The other guy got drafted for us. Isaiah Joe. Oh, yeah. Great point. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, with the Thunder. Yeah. We also only had 10 guys who played 10K minutes so far in this draft. 10K minutes in six years. Not a lot. Right? Feels right, though. That's 1 ,500 a year, but we've only had 10. All right. So the final redraft. Edwards won Halliburton Maxie, Avdia LaMelo Ball, our top five McDaniels, Devin Vassell, Okongwu, Bain Pritchard, rounding at the top ten and then we did Stewart Neesmith, Quickly, Toppen, Bay, Isaiah Joe and Sam Merrill I don't even think that's the right amount of somehow that's 17 players we probably skipped a guy at some point but that was our redraft and then the closest to getting drafted probably Paul Reed.

1:25:36Bill Simmons:He was our bubble guy. Yeah. You guys both liked him. I feel like Kyle Mann has not given up on Okoro yet. What? Based on what? I think you're still holding out hope for him as a defensive shutdown guy. Didn't we get valuable playoff minutes from Najee Marshall? I feel like Najee Marshall is being overlooked here. Was he in this draft? I'm a little flabbergasted by that accusation, Bill. I don't know. I saw a glimmer of hope when Okoro's name got brought up. No, that was the sun reflecting off my glasses. Where was Najee Marshall in this draft? Did I miss this? Undrafted. Oh, he's an undraft. So the undrafted were him and Deshaun Tate.

1:26:12Bill Simmons:Najee Marshall could have been picked. I actually think he's arrow pointing up out of some of these guys we mentioned. Facundo Compasso? No love? Joe House. Yeah. Enjoy the golf. Thank you. Kyle Mann, enjoy the time off before the playoffs get really kicking here. it was a pleasure to do a redraft day. I have a feeling I'll be seeing the two of you again for another redraft this summer because I really enjoy this. Thank you, fellas. We're going to take a break. Come back with Jason Concepcion. This episode is brought to you by Mazda. There's driving and then there's driving with peace of mind.

1:26:47Bill Simmons:Knowing you're behind the wheel of Consumer Reports' safest new car brand, Mazda. The Mazda CX-50 hybrid comes standard with a suite of proactive safety features. so confidence isn't an upgrade, it's a given. Mazda, move and be moved. Visit MazdaUSA.com. Discover how confidence comes standard. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. Visit MazdaUSA.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG. If I'm ever traveling for work, where I stay is so important. I actually really care about this because sometimes I even have to do a podcast wherever I'm staying.

1:27:28Bill Simmons:In general, I don't go on the road that much, but when I go on the road, I like to be in a nice hotel with a nice room. I'm spoiled. If you sound like me, check out Holiday Inn. It has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. You'll see it everywhere from refreshed rooms to reimagined social spaces and dining done right with new drinks and dishes. And for business, there are flexible spaces that work for the way you work. It's a new day. and a new stay. Book now at HolidayInn.com. Jason Concepcion is here for one of the most important moments of the year on the Bill Simmons podcast.

1:28:08Bill Simmons:I'm going to unleash my MVP ballot for the Odyssey. Okay. I haven't prepped you at all. I didn't send it to you. And we're going from 100 to one. Now I'm going to skip some spots. Okay. Okay. Yeah, we're going backwards. How many times have you seen this movie? Once or twice? I've only seen it once. I'm going a second time with my wife this week coming up. I saw it yesterday at 10 a.m. showing at the Grove with CR himself, Chris Ryan, and my son, Ben, who was completely blown away and tried to get tickets for last night and was like, dad, there are no tickets. And I'm like, yeah, there's not gonna be tickets for a while at night.

1:28:48Bill Simmons:Yeah. Yeah. Not going to find those. But before we get into the MVP ballot. So you're obviously, you did Binge Mode for us with Mallory. You're a Game of Thrones aficionado. That's right. Do these worlds overlap at all for you? Do you feel like there's some sort of DNA strands together? In the sense that this is based on history. You know, these are epic poems from a period of Western history, the dawn of history, but that within that, it's also from an age of legends. It's you're unclear, like what actually happened and, and what was, is fantastical. Um, yes, I think about them in the same way, which is something I've been telling people.

1:29:37Like I, I think about this, this movie is, you know, when I was a kid, you'd turn on basic cable and it would be like the dark crystal or labyrinth or any number of movies that this movie reminded me of. like this is a movie where if I was 13 years old and I turned on TV and it was two hours into the movie I'm like well I'm here for the rest of the 55 minutes well this is going to be one of the

1:30:06Bill Simmons:all-time rewatchable so I'm sure we'll do it at some point this year I gotta wait till it's on streaming or cable so I can really study it and take a bunch of notes and stuff but it's I love that we're gonna do a lot of spoilers for this so if you haven't seen it yet no offense you can leave come back after you've watched it but one of the things i love about it other than it's just so ambitious and they use technology perfectly and it's almost impeccably cast with a couple of exceptions we'll get into but the i have there's one i'm gonna yeah there's somebody that fares very poorly on the mvp ballot and his name rhymes with bomb balland oh god yeah I told you buckle up interesting okay but I think what I really love and what's great from a rewatchable standpoint it's got four like set pieces where it's like alright okay buckle up ten minutes get ready and you know when we see we see Cyclops for the first time and the movie's like kind of moving along it's like we're bringing in all these different characters.

1:31:14Bill Simmons:I'm just kind of going along. It's like, oh, let's get some food. Hey, there's a sheep. Let's follow him up the hill. And you just have no idea what's about to happen. And from that point on, the movie just goes nuts. Goes absolutely nuts. Yes. I loved it. I can't wait to... I cannot wait to see where we go with this MVP. 100-person MVP. Yeah, I'm going to skip some spots. Okay. Coming in at number 100. So just react off me after I give you a chance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got it. After, at 100, finishing last. Bitchy internet people. Yes. They're 100 on the MVP ballot, complaining that only 41 theaters can show IMAX.

1:31:55Bill Simmons:Sorry. The casting was too woke. That's been a big thing. Nolan wasn't faithful to Homer. Just shut the fuck up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just stop. We can't complain about everything. When somebody spends this amount of time and money and makes a great movie like this, we can't also bitch about it and find reasons that it sucks. Faithful to Homer is hilarious because first of all, Homer is not a guy. Homer is a collection of unknown amounts of anonymous poets. There was no actual Homer guy. Yeah. And two, you know, the things that people choose to be mad about, the wokeness of it, it's like, you know, what's not, what's barely in the Odyssey, the horse.

1:32:35The horse is like mentioned in a line and you certainly don't see what goes on inside of it. So it's just very interesting to me, the stuff that people choose to be upset about. And then the people, even with the trailer who were like, that's not what Agamemnon's helmet would have looked like. It's like, get out of here.

1:32:50Bill Simmons:Please stop it. Listen, there's a lot of people out there who need a nice 24 ounce glass of settled down juice. They know who they are. All right. We're dropping down to number 58 in the MVP ballot. Benny Safdie is Agamemnon. Oh, wow. Okay. Here's why. didn't even know it was him the first time I watched it no idea he could have been anybody and then it was like Benny Safdie and it was like he was so now I'm watching it and I guess you can kind of see him at two different points but really you just needed like a tall imposing guy I would have gone with Con Canipple like just go with somebody 6 '7 of course you would have gone with Con Canipple here's the thing about the Benny Safdie casting you know it was like it's a mythic depiction you know agamemnon's like a foot and a half taller than everybody he's almost as tall as the giants that they end up running from and it's to me and i'm gonna i'm gonna unveil this theory at the right moment in this podcast i can't wait to me nolan has done something incredibly creative and thoughtful with all of his cat with most of his casting choices and i would include safty because he's like the most normal guy of the major characters in this cast.

1:34:08And they shoot him like Darth Vader, this mythic figure. But then when he speaks, it's just like a guy. So it's like this collision of myth and feet of clay that I think is really interesting. I thought it was really fascinating. But I agree, you don't even know it's him.

1:34:26Bill Simmons:Would you have gone with Walker Kessler? Would you have just gone seven-footer? Talk about a guy that we also haven't seen very much of in recent years. James Wiseman? Wiseman. Talk about another guy that we also haven't seen much of in recent years. Darko Milichick? Yeah, just go with any seven-footer who's not in an NBA team anymore because you're going for like a big, giant, tall guy, right? I don't know why you need Benny Safdie. Anyway, I didn't know he was in it. All right, number 47, Tom Holland as Temeculis. Okay, okay. I'll just start here, Jason. Sure. Go ahead. To me, this is a 2002 range Heath Ledger role.

1:35:05Bill Simmons:Where it's like, this is somebody I could see someday becoming this badass gladiator. But right now he's in, you know, he's like a pup. Still trying to figure out the world. Tom Holland, way too short to be like the next guy who runs the whole thing. To be like this warrior. Just not cool enough. I never bought the American accent the whole time. I didn't feel like he was related to Matt Damon. And he's trying, and they're trying to make it work. But I just find it hard to believe that this is Temeculous. I'll unveil my theory here. I think Nolan is playing with our... Sean Fennessey mentioned this on the pod you guys talked about, the Odyssey, and from last week.

1:35:51I think Nolan is, in a fascinating way, playing with our perceptions of these people and the characters they have played. For instance, Tom Holland, who is almost eternally now associated with Peter Parker, Spider-Man, who is a teenager forever, here plays a character who their entire struggle is, why won't anybody see me as a man, as a full-grown man, as a person who could be king? he's trying to grow out of that image that we have placed him in because of his association with Peter Parker. And that's my Tom Holland example for why Nolan picked Tom Holland. And personally, I think it worked. I think it was, I think that kind of nod and a wink to the way we perceive Holland in this role.

1:36:42It, it, it worked for me.

1:36:44Bill Simmons:It worked for me. Interesting. People are really split on it. That's why I knew putting him 47. I thought there was one scene Renee and Hathaway just blew him off the screen it was just because she's great in this movie we'll get to her much later I had some questions with the age too because Odysseus was gone for it seemed like 20 years the dog is barely holding on at the end but then we have flashbacks of he sees his little kid there who's like 4 seems like 4 or 5 in the flashbacks so that puts Tomekulus at like 24, 25 range. Yes, that would be mine. But he's treated in the movie like he's 16.

1:37:23Bill Simmons:I just don't I don't I just didn't. This was the one thing that really didn't work for me. Well, you know, it's like ancient Greek culture. He can't grow a beard. I think they just don't see you as a man until you can grow a full-fledged beard. At number 43 I have Poseidon. Not a great dad. Negligent dad leaves his Cyclops son just in a cave. Son has to finally get stabbed and attacked and has to call out for him. And he's like, all right, fine. I'll do some stuff for you. It's a good point. I would add that every single Greek god who's a male Greek god from Greek myths is a bad dad. All they do is go out, sire children, like with regular human women after meeting them in disguise and being like, hey, I'm just like a really handsome guy.

1:38:19I'm not Zeus at all, by the way. And then just abandoning them and never raising them. So this is like the culture of the pantheon of the Greek gods. This is just what they do.

1:38:28Bill Simmons:They're like, he's at a dinner party and they're like, what's up with Cyclops? He's like, you know, he's doing all right. He's, you know, the cave's doing well, except the 12 sheep. He's got a career. Yeah, he's got a job. He's making his own way as a sheep herder on an island. he's doing really really well works really hard at it obviously one eye is tough but um okay number 40 bear with me because we're not allowed to be critical of this person on i'm not going to be but all of the explanation number 40 is zendaya it's a day um the goddess of wisdom warfare and handicraft in this movie is athena which is also people don't know this mallet Ruben's title at the ring.

1:39:10Yes.

1:39:11Bill Simmons:Mallory's the goddess of wisdom, warfare and handicraft. Um, yes. Listen, sometimes you can have too much star power in a movie. I'm not sure we need her for who she's playing in this movie. And I get it. Nolan's just like, I'm, he probably grew up on 70s movies and we're just getting stars all over the place, but she's basically here. It feels like she filmed her scenes in two days. She's making the Rue face from Euphoria in four different scenes and then calling it a day it's like you have zendaya here she's one of the most famous actresses in the world like she barely gets the ball they don't run any plays for her i i liked it because you're meant to wonder what it could mean that she's here she barely speaks throughout the movie she does a couple things you know at one point um you know odysseus is like why can't you just like why can't the gods speak plainly and just like say normal stuff right and she's like listen this is i I don't know what to tell you that God's work in mysterious ways.

1:40:07We're doing the best we can. And so for me, it was like, you, you want to be starstruck by that face. It's a lot like the Charlize casting where it's like, I just want to be dazzled by this character. And I think that was appropriate. And with the end, listen, we're spoiling it, right? We're spoiling everything. Yeah. Yeah. With the way, with the reveal of who Zendaya is in the movie, which is a, a woman who was killed during the sack of Troy, adding to Odysseus's guilt. That reveal after all this time wondering like, what, you know, what does Athena want? Like, is she going to be more plain spoken about it?

1:40:51Really hits for me. And secondarily, a lot of the, like the talk in this movie between the characters is, Hey, remember the gods can just show up in disguise, like as a, as a beggar, as a normal person. Right. So I think Odysseus at the end is meant to have wondered all these years. Did, oh man, did we accidentally, did we kill Athena in disguise? Did we insult her? Like, did I insult her with this Trojan horse?

1:41:18Bill Simmons:So you're saying we need somebody, we need more star power because there's a mystery of how important she was. Man, that's not bad. Because I was going to suggest Sophie Cunningham here, where she's just, she's just doing the point. Just because of the point? Just because of the point? I mean, that's a great idea. And by the way, Sophie Cunningham needs to... Yeah, like Pat Riley needs to trademark the point quickly. Yeah, no question. Number 38, James Remar. Another one, I didn't realize it was him the first time I saw the movie and then was looking for him the second time. He's in the dead people scene.

1:41:53Bill Simmons:It's after the Elliot Page comes back and says all this stuff. And then we see Remar's in the bottom. I just want to give you his IMDb here. Please, please, please. He's in the movie for 90 seconds, which is why he's not higher. He's Ajax in The Warriors. Incredible. He's Gans in 48 Hours, one of the great villains in action movie history. He's Dexter's dad in Dexter. He's Sex and the City, the best sex Samantha ever had. He's in Oppenheimer, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Pineapple Express and What Lies Beneath. He's in Miami Vice in an episode and he's in Cruising. James Remar. Incredible. incredible turn all time IMDB anyway kudos to him okay down to number 33 I have the giant last dragonians so these are the big giant robots that kill most of Odysseus's crew yes no backstory I don't know what they're so upset about I don't know where they came from if I'm gonna cut anything in this movie this might have been where I cut I might have just had a boat capsized instead.

1:42:59Bill Simmons:I don't know. Here's why I loved it. Okay. Because it turns out that Nolan shot that with no special effects. They did the force perspective trick from the Lord of the Rings where they took they replaced Damon and cast with like five foot tall stunt people. And then they cast like seven foot two Serbian centers as the last Dragonians and then shot like from a low angle up. So that's all legit. There's no CGI in that at all. Okay, you talked me into it. I just didn't understand what was going on in that scene, but that's, you're kind of holding on for dear life for half of this movie anyway. Yeah.

1:43:46Bill Simmons:Number 32, I mentioned the LA page character, Sinon? Sinon. Tough job. Tough one. Get lied to. tough tough coaching here by Odysseus you know um it's like hey we're all gonna be in the horse you're gonna be out there it's gonna be fine though nothing's gonna happen but he knows it's tough I mean to to be fair to Odysseus when he found out that Sinan volunteered for this was like whoa whoa why did you do that like wait right it I I didn't want it to be you why did you have to do that but there again i i think is this example of nolan's really interesting casting here's a character that like is cut loose and sacrificed by their entire community and society lied to and then left to die in order for this mission to like actually work uh and so i thought that was like yeah it was that really hit me that it was like Yeah.

1:44:50Bill Simmons:Felt bad. I mean, who knows? Sidon could have been much higher in the ballot, but you know who didn't want him higher? Who? Odysseus. Just left him out to die. It was brutal. Brutal by Odysseus. And they had to listen to it from inside the horse. Number 30. The spoiler alert, people. We can't spoil the Odyssey. We all read the book. We all know it happens. There's nothing to spoil. It already happened. It's not like, hey, I wonder or how this plays out. Number 27. All right, now we're starting to get into some real candidates here. Number 27. Okay. Mia Goth as the handmaid, the untrusting Anne Hathaway.

1:45:33Bill Simmons:Turns out she's got something going with Pattinson. I wanted a little more from her. I got to be honest. She felt like the most Game of Thrones character in this movie other than maybe Pattinson and definitely was the only one who seemed like she was a little bit horny? This is not a horny movie. Not at all. There's that one moment where you realize that she is with Pattinson's character when he's just come from the queen. Yeah, they do a sloppy kiss. And they're just like, oh my God. They're like, yeah. And that's about as horny as it gets. Well, you know, like, there's the entire preamble of Odysseus with Calypso on the beach that feels like Like there's been editing.

1:46:19Like it's been like it's the horniness was 20 minutes ago. And now we're past that. And we're just like rehydrating and basking in the glow. I'm glad you brought that up.

1:46:30Bill Simmons:There's an hour rated version of this movie. There's definitely a Calypso scene. There's probably a scene with Odysseus and Penelope in the first 20 minutes. There's 100 % of Mia Goth and Pattinson scene. And then there's probably some sort of feast slash orgy if we went Game of Thrones style. There's probably a little finger running a brothel right outside of... Yeah, there's something like that. There's a 1 a.m. on Showtime or Cinemax in 1996 cut of this that comes after the Hitcher or whatever, the Red Shoe Diaries or something. Bob Guccione produced it. Right. It was shot in the Netherlands.

1:47:11lens, absolutely there is a cut of this movie that is possible. Yeah.

1:47:15Bill Simmons:I think Mia Goth was probably like, this is, I was, I was ready for more, I guess, I guess nothing's happened. All right. At number 25, the dog Argos. Oh, RIP. So I, first time I saw this was with your former binge mode partner, Valerie Rubin. And the moment we saw the dog, she, and she was just terrified. And, and then the dog dies at At the end, I thought Mallory was going to be reduced to a puddle. Odysseus comes back, just touches the dog. The dog's like, you're back. Odysseus drops dead from the shop. And I thought Mallory was also maybe going to drop dead. The note I wrote down here is, you know, Murph is now six, my dog.

1:47:58Bill Simmons:This is how I want Murph to go. Age 20. I'm away for a while. He holds on until I come back. I touch. Then he dies. This is what a relationship. how did she do when they were kicking the dogs like in the in the dinner scene you know Mallory how do you think she did she she threw up the both she did one of those guarding her eyes uh I will say the reason Argus isn't higher is uh I wonder what more flashback scene this dog was such a great hunting dog let's see it we saw like for a split second I I kind of wanted to see him cook a little bit. I don't know. Maybe Nolan, not a dog guy. All right, number 24, Corey Hawkins.

1:48:41Bill Simmons:He's Polybus. He's Pattinson's kind of sidekick. Honestly, possible Deion Waiters candidate. I thought he really jumped out. I thought he was really good. Huge reaction. I don't know about you. Huge reaction in my theater when he buys it. the audience absolutely loved it to have that kind of impact in what does he have like three lines and he's probably on screen for like two and a half minutes yeah to have that kind of impact in two and a half minutes i gotta respect it crowd loved seeing him die he kind of came in like he's out of the bad boy pistons he's just kind of crazy he's just trying trying to get a tech just trying to start shit with people.

1:49:26Right. He's like any member of the Argentina World Cup squad in the final.

1:49:34Bill Simmons:He's already got a yellow card. He doesn't care if you might get kicked out. Number 22, Lupita Nwongo. Playing twins. Playing hot twins. One has scars on her face. The other doesn't. The other shanks. Honestly, need a little more with this. This was kind of the untraveled side of her getting the, the evil sister, getting the revenge at the end, but there's a, in the books, there's a whole backstory for why she did that. And just kind of comes and goes. And I, I don't know. I felt like I could have gone another 10 minutes with it. I, uh, this is for me is the kind of your mileage may vary thing.

1:50:12I think what Nolan was trying to do here is say through this character, whose face launched the original Trojan war.

1:50:22Bill Simmons:Right. Is to say like, oh, Helen has thoughts about this too. Um, because she keeps wanting to say something. Like she tried, she pulls Tom Holland aside at one point and like, gives him some very important information. And then at the, at the feast is like, keeps trying to interject, but, uh, Menelaus just like, won't let her speak. And to me, that was like a meta statement about. war and about this entire conflict within this movie. But I agree that - I like it. You have Lupita and you just kind of want more. I thought that was a perfectly cast because she's one of the most beautiful actresses we have.

1:51:00Bill Simmons:And that's like in your head, Helena Troy has to be like, oh yeah, I get it. Number 20, Mentor. Yeah, original Mentor. They named everything else after him. Unbelievable. I never realized there, or I'd forgotten. because I read these books in high school, but the original mentor is just kind of, oh yeah, that's a good one. Here's my Nolan casting theory applied to John Leguizamo mentor.

1:51:33Bill Simmons:By the way, I have Leguizamo coming later if you want to save this. Oh, okay, I'll save it. I just had the concept of mentor as number 20. Yeah, we're going to hit Leguizamo in a second. Number 19. The big lesson of the Odyssey is my number 19 MVP. Winning isn't everything. You know what? Trojan horse, great idea. You offered somebody a gift. Yeah. You turned it and you ended up winning the war because you shanked them with this gift. But Odysseus, as the movie goes on, he realizes, was it worth it? It's the nicest thing you can do for another human being is give them a gift. And we did that. And then we betrayed them with it.

1:52:17Bill Simmons:and I don't know if I would do that again. I thought he was the proper amount of doubt and skepticism about whether that was the good move. I think that's absolutely right. I think that, you know, one of the things that we know about Odysseus is how, not only how clever he is, which everybody says throughout the movie, but also that he is fair. Like he thrums that bow with that classic Christopher Nolan bass drop sound moment. And, you know, Penelope asks him why he does that. And he's like, well, I want to give, I think it's only fair and honorable to give the animal I'm hunting like fair warning that I'm coming.

1:52:51But he doesn't do that with Troy. He plays it underhanded. He never gives them the warning that this is that actually the hunt is still on. And that's a big reason why he's so guilty. He feels like he insulted Athena.

1:53:06Bill Simmons:A little parallels to Bill Belichick and Spygate, maybe a little bit. How far do you want to go to win? Sometimes you can have regrets. too much. Yeah. How much is too much? There are repercussions coming in at number 18, Matt Damon's beard, uh, authentic, real beard. It's weird. Cause he can't, I don't know if they were trimming the upper lip part, but the beard itself. Um, I'm just going to ask you, cause it's one of the most important questions, the movie better or worse beard than Tom Hanks and cast away. Also a natural beard. They're different kinds of beards. Odysseus beard was more both are wild, but it was more manicured.

1:53:48And it seemed more, air quotes, Greek, whereas Tom Hanks just had that crazy thing. He had the survivor beard, basically. He had the survivor beard. I'm going to give it a push. Push? I'm going to give it a push with the edge to Damon because of the dedication of how long it's, it's like a year of your life to do this. Pretty impressive to me.

1:54:11Bill Simmons:you know it makes you realize when we've had fake beards in movies yes how bad the fake beards are like there's one point when he gets wet and the beard like kind of like stiffens up it's like oh that's a fucking real beard man i knew he grew the real beard but there's moments where this is why you spend a year growing a beard can i ask you bill yeah so i was listening to your um dicaprio or damon conversation and can we just say right now that the boston connection had nothing to do with it if there wasn't any it didn't factor in at all maybe a little maybe a tiny bit okay because i i i'm not saying i disagree with the with the with where you landed with it i think it's an interesting conversation but i wanted it acknowledged at least a little bit you no DiCaprio Laker fan.

1:55:05Bill Simmons:Well, that is true. It's funny. I got so many emails from the listeners saying like, do you realize you've been a lifelong Jordan over LeBron fan? And then you did Leo versus Damon and you picked LeBron over Jordan, basically. You picked career, resume, more movies, more minutes, more games, more everything versus the heights of Leo, which was the exact opposite of your strategy with Jordan. I'm like, you know what? Checkmate. You got me. I don't have a counter on that one. Number 17, Hamish Patel. Is that how you say his name? Hamish Patel. Hamish Patel. Officially a Nolan guy. Congrats to him.

1:55:44Bill Simmons:Like Nolan's making a movie he's in. I really liked him in this. I thought that, is this a mutiny? It doesn't have to be. Like he had a couple of really good moments. I thought the way he was like watching Odysseus and you can see him losing faith, but I just thought it was kind of not the most exciting part, but I thought he kind of crushed it. I liked him. I loved it as well. He just brings a more, you know, with a guy like Odysseus, who's like the mastermind, the brilliant guy, you need that character. Who's like, okay, I'm going to take all these brilliant plans of yours and somehow make it happen.

1:56:22And he, you felt that chemistry through their interactions.

1:56:26Bill Simmons:Yeah. Number 16. This is goes to the crossbow and arrow trick. okay so this movie has to hinge on this stupid beau thing that he does in the beginning that everybody's like oh wow he did it again and everybody's like oh my god this is fucking amazing and they have to plant that seed for later and it's like an all time comes back it's like oh she's gonna have them do it she's gonna have she knows the suitors won't be able to do this and she's kind of secretly hoping that beggars and desius I just thought phenomenal and by the way I would watch this as a two hour ESPN event of just bending the bow and then I want to see people bend the bow how many people can do it and then you have to shoot through the axes I'm in for two hours through the axes incredibly underrated totally glossed over just be completely glossed over like obviously no one has done stringing the bow except for Odysseus yeah but once you climb that mountain there's arguably an even higher mountain after that.

1:57:32It's just impossible. I love that they brought it back.

1:57:35Bill Simmons:I loved it. Okay. Now we're in the top 15. This is the really good stuff here. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance, and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. so every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24-7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new work day. This message is brought to you by Mariner. It takes the right team to help develop an athlete's talents.

1:58:12Bill Simmons:Managing your money works the same way. You've ever thought, am I getting the most out of my financial plan? You're ready for Mariner. With Mariner, you get an advisor backed by a full team of specialists, so everything's working together toward your goals. Take the next step in your financial journey with Mariner. Investment advisory services offered through Mariner LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. For more information, visit Mariner.com. Okay. Number 15, I put this in partly for you. Drunken, menacing, bordering on violent feasts. Really, this was the most Game of Thrones DNA here where we just have a bunch of people eating together and people drinking bad wine and just getting bombed and they don't know how to interact what are they talking about that none of them have any hobbies and they can't be like hey what do you think about the playoffs tonight the only goal is just to get drunk and maybe get in a fight with somebody and it was just fun to be back it made me brought me back to the thrones what an incredible collection of bad hang individuals that have been hanging out yeah Not for a week, not for a month.

1:59:18Three years. But for like years, they've been here eating Penelope out of house and home, bullying her son, kicking dogs, spitting in the face of beggars and just trying to hook up with her for years. Terrible.

1:59:33Bill Simmons:That is a maybe just poison everybody kind of moment for her. At some point. At some point. It's like, hey, I got some special steak tonight. Number 14, Samantha Morton as Circe. Oh my God. So another, also like Thrones, Cersei versus Cersei. I'm like, that can't be a coincidence, right? I mean, I think that there's significant thematic connections for sure. Yeah. What performance was creepier for you? Samantha Morton as the creepy lady who lives on a hill and can turn everybody into pigs and knows a lot of shit and just has kind of a dark energy about her or who she played a minority report. The pods.

2:00:16Bill Simmons:One of the... The bald pods in the underwater. One of the freakiest characters of all time. This is clearly a juicier role. I think this is the spookier role. Just because, like, the eating scene, when they're feasting on the food and you're just like, this can't be good. Whatever's about to happen, it's gonna be bad. And the way they, again, with the practical effects, she's like, reaching into their cheeks, stretching their mouths, turning them into pigs. It is so unsettling and magnetic, but also like really just gross on a base level that, I mean, I was blown away by this. This is a creepier role just because, is she eating the people?

2:00:58Like, so she's feeding people to people in the form of animals. To eventually eat them. And also very underrated part of this is she has her sister as a crow just in a cage forever.

2:01:11Bill Simmons:Yeah, so she's a cannibal witch and also not a great sister. Not a great sister. I saw this the first time. The second time, three-hour movie. I'm drinking a giant water. At some point, I got to go to the bathroom. Timed it for when she turned everybody into pigs. I'm like, I don't want to watch this again. Get me out of this. I had another question for you. Turning people into pigs. Yeah. Top 10 worst superpower? Like, if you had to pick like, oh, cool. I get a superpower. What am I getting? Well, you're going to have to turn people into pigs and then you eat them. That's your superpower. Well, with regards to your mentor, Paul, the first mentor, is this the first men or pigs?

2:01:59Bill Simmons:Oh, I like it. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Cause she's, she's calling her shot too. She's like, they're pigs. They're getting what they're deserved. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. I mean, we're really just like in the origin stories of so many tropes. It is true. Number 13, Zeus. I wrote down, he's a little like Adam Silver. He has a bunch of laws. We mostly don't know what they are. And the punishment is either not nearly enough or way worse than it should be. That's exactly right. No notes. I have no notes. That's perfect. Adam's exactly correct. Yes. Did we violate the laws with the aspiration scandal?

2:02:39Bill Simmons:You will find out. I don't know. Is this king that I have put in place, the cheapest king, the worst king ever? Yes. Oh, the Portland king. The king of Portland. The king of Portland. I didn't realize he was so cheap, even though he did exactly the same thing in Carolina. He might be the king of Las Vegas very soon. We have no idea. All right, now we're really getting there. Number 12, Jon Bernthal. Arguably could have been five spots higher. He's the king of Sparta in this movie. So I mentioned this last week. I intentionally avoided all spoilers, everything. I literally didn't know he was in the movie.

2:03:18Bill Simmons:I gasped when I saw him. I got so excited. But could he have played Odysseus if we were doing like slightly cheaper budget? We can't afford Matt Damon. We need to go second level actors. Could you have bought Jon Bernthal as Odysseus? Because I would have. He could have done it, but here's why I think Nolan did it the way he did. I've got a, this is part of my Nolan theory. With regards to Bernthal as a occasional, a little more than occasional listener to his podcast. Yeah. He is always... He's a very pro veterans issues figure. He's always talking about the sacrifice of vets. He's always platforming, you know, ex Delta Force guys, ex SEAL Team 6 guys on his podcast and talking about the things that warfighters go through.

2:04:07And here, I think Nolan very specifically playing with that, cast him as like the character who's like, Trojan War was awesome, man. Like, oh, what's it? Your dad was in the Trojan War? Come here, sit next to me. I want to talk to you. Yeah. Let me tell you about the horse. Let me tell you from inside the horse. I'll tell you what that was about. And he's the guy who's the most concerned with what happened to the Trojan War veterans as they left the war and what they're up to now. And I think this is, could he have been Odysseus? Yes. But I think Nolan wanted him specifically for this kind of part.

2:04:41Bill Simmons:it's an awesome point number 11 i have homer who as you mentioned isn't a complete person no it's not um great stuff nonetheless and the legend of homer continues great job by him great job by him them however many homers there were we have no idea but yeah you know homer they'll be reading it forever it was enjoyable in high school just really laid it down great time back All right. Number 10. This got really tough. Number 10, the Trojan horse. Just an all time. I know ultimately evil and Odysseus had a lot of regrets about it, but just fundamentally probably the greatest war idea of all time.

2:05:29Without it, the fact that we're talking about it 5 ,000 years later proves the point and that it's become the word Trojan horse has become the byword for something that contains a hidden poison, some sort of ambush within it. I think you're exactly right. And let's be honest, Bill, if we were there like Menelaus or any of these other characters, we'd never stop talking about the horse ever. Right. That's it.

2:05:56Bill Simmons:I wouldn't have to do anything else. I would just be telling Trojan horse stories to everybody I met. Yeah, I was in there. Let me tell you, every single podcast, the comments would be like, guess what? Bill managed to tie it back to the horse. He did it again. He did it again. It's the horse. Guess what? He's in the horse and the water level is rising. You'll never guess. It's the horse. I think Kevin Wilde's half-baked ideas, the Trojan horse is the greatest half-baked idea ever where they were like, all right here's my idea i only have half of it we just build a horse right and we all climb into it and somehow they pull it up and then when we're inside we'll come out of the horse and they're like okay they try to work with it and somehow it works so the movie lays out a really key point about the children because it's been romanticized over the years like yeah they were in a horse that really has yeah bad times in the horse i mean not fun about as bad as it gets where they're just pissing and shitting on themselves there's water in the horse people are drowning in the horse they're suffocated in there they also have no idea how long they're going to be in there uh i'm going to say one of the worst things of all time it might not work at all you're just they might leave it there like you don't know it's a it's a hail mary pass for sure you're getting stabbed in the horse then there's the guy who's like i've got to also wipe the blood off the blade before it pulls out or this whole thing is is going to be ruined very one of the all-time worst times in the horse which is why again bill you would not stop talking about the horse it's right it was it's the warriors figuring out how to get kd in 2016 multiplied by like 200 one of the great things ever the smell by day four had to be all time worse you think everybody's like yo I know we're not supposed to open that little opening that we get out of but what if we did what if we just opened it anyway I think Odysseus very strategically put himself by that little opening because I think he was sneaking breaths yeah no question alright number nine Robert Pattinson as Antonis This is the Billy Zane part.

2:08:11Bill Simmons:We have these big movies and it's like, oh, you're the Billy Zane part in this. And in Titanic, Billy Zane is over the top and just one of the most ridiculous characters in the history of the movie, but it's great. This is a really good performance. And here's the thing, Jason Sepsion. This is an actual fact from Robert Pattinson. He based his performance on James Woods in Casino. That's actually a great quote. He said this in an interview. Wow. I watched Casino and I decided, what if he was Antonis and I just was Lester Diamond? And that's who I was. And it's like, holy shit. So I found that out between the first and second movies.

2:08:51Bill Simmons:And I, times I watched, I watched it the second time, him as Lester. And I was like, this is fucking out of control. There's a, there's a moment in this performance, obviously like he's so almost cartoonishly evil throughout. out. But then they get to the final, you know, the test with the bow and the 10 axes and everybody's failing, failing, failing. It comes around to Antoninus. And he's like, he does this fascinating thing where he gives the speech where he's like, hold on. None of us could ever imagine that we could replace Odysseus. Odysseus is a giant. Odysseus won the Trojan War. I would never Dean to take his place.

2:09:34We can only hope to be selected by you, Penelope. So I'm not going to try. I'm not going to even try to do it. I don't want to disgrace the bow. I won't disgrace the bow with that kind of performance. And I was like, man, that is on the one hand so slimy and also that would have worked on me. I would have been like, you know what? Maybe he's not such a bad guy. Did I have him wrong? Maybe I had him wrong.

2:09:58Bill Simmons:I think he should get nominated for this if i was going to do supporting actor in leguizamo's the next person we're going to mention but it it and maybe both i don't know what the categories look like but you know that the academy and just in general the the over-the-top villain part like this never gets actual award recognition i thought he was awesome and pattinson's been in her life now for since my kids were young and you know the fucking twilight movies were coming out this is like almost a 20-year career now for him. He's just a really good actor. I think this is the best he's been in a movie.

2:10:33He's really good in this. He's always, especially, you know, post-Twilight, it seems like he's reveled in taking these really interesting roles. And I don't think, Bill, there is a better actor currently working at that specific kind of sniveling, two-faced villain. Like obviously like a cartoon, like mustache twirling villain, but also like has the wherewithal to understand like my villainy is revolting to people. So I need to put a mask on it. And then the, you know, the, is there a better actor at these really dynamic physical moments where like the fight is unfolding and he's hiding behind a pillar, like get him, get the shield and get him with the shield.

2:11:18It's like, there's nobody better at this stuff.

2:11:20Bill Simmons:He's great. He's really good in good time. I mean, he's been in a bunch of good stuff, but, uh, but I love that he keeps, he's all over the map. Like, I don't know what to expect from him anymore with movie parts that he plays. And in this one, you know, 10 years ago, you would have said he would have been the Tom Holland part. Right. It's like, that's the kind of, but he zagged and now it's, I just think he's doing a really good job. All right. Number eight, Leguizamo. Uh, another one didn't know he was going to be in the movie. Saw him and I was like, Oh, Leguizamo. That's cool. He got in a scene.

2:11:52Bill Simmons:And it's like, no, he's actually a big part of this movie and is probably going to get nominated for an Oscar. I thought he fucking crushed it. I thought he was so good in this movie. And I do think he's going to get nominated, right? I think that would be my bet for this category for him. Completely agree. My favorite role of his since Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet, the 90s Romeo and Juliet. Yeah. And is one of those roles where you're like, damn, Leguizamo, I forgot. Like, he can really do it. He can really act. And with my Nolan casting theory, I don't think it's a... I think it's very specifically chosen that Leguizamo is now in a second movie where the death of a dog is the huge turning point in the movie.

2:12:45just like in John Wick. And just like in John Wick, he is that character in John Wick who's like, listen, you don't know what you've done. When John Wick gets here, you guys are fucked. He's the same character in this. It's like, listen, when Mike, when Odysseus gets back, you...

2:13:01Bill Simmons:That's really interesting. I've missed that completely. He's going to wipe the floor with you guys. I did not miss the John Wick parallels in this movie, but I missed the Leguizamo collection. That's a really good connection. I thought he was tremendous. Congrats to him. Completely agree. Number seven. Arguably could have been one. Charlize. Oh my God. Another one I had no idea was in the movie. She's Calypso. It's a role that probably should not have worked. Seven years of great sex and lotus flowers. And he's like, my heart's somewhere else. I'm going to leave. I would have stayed. I don't know how she got the part to work.

2:13:43Bill Simmons:like it does, but she's really great in this. And it's like the perfect kind of heat check. She comes off the bench, hits a couple threes, grabs some boards, dunks over somebody, and then she's out. I don't know that she's looked better in a movie than this movie. And she's great in every movie. And with regards to Nolan Theory, she's been the face of Dior for 20 years, this kind of like ageless, immortal beauty. So from that perspective, the casting makes sense. She's been very public on numerous podcasts talking about how she's single by choice, that it's a source of strength for her. Yeah. That she would in fact never date in the entertainment industry because she's been through that.

2:14:27It's too -

2:14:27Bill Simmons:She loves one night stands. One night stands are great for her. That's right. And here she is in this movie, an ageless beauty who ends up alone at the end and kind of by choice. She says to him, okay I've kept you here long enough like if you want to leave you can leave um and so I think once again Nolan is playing with our idea of who this person is and using that creatively in the casting and she was absolutely incredible this was the best casting in the movie for me and I don't know what other actress would have been a better sometimes we'll have somebody in this and it's like nah not quite but this one is like wow and then I I had this in my nose Jason this is four decades now of heat check performances from her going back to reindeer games and devil's advocate like we're talking her basketball reference page now is like god damn this is it's 32 years now this fast and the furious i mean it just goes on and on like the amount of things that she has done yeah it's pretty incredible like and to your point career launched you know in a in a basically a tarantino ripoff movie like that's how long she's been at this thing yeah incredible incredible performance by her great casting and the concept of calypso like there's seven different movies that could have spun off from this movie and just been like all right let's go there for an hour and a half they're just the concept of calypso just on this island waiting for people to wash up pretty great uh number six i don't want to get too film dorky but the editor jennifer lame the the person did the score ludwig goranson um yeah i'm not sure who killed it more so i have them as 6a and 6b here um the editing and chris and sean talked about that when they did the pod last week about in the later nolan movies where he does this kind of flashback edit thing that just kind of seamlessly goes into where we are now but I gotta say the score in a couple of these scenes, the, and the sound of Cyclops calling for Poseidon.

2:16:37Bill Simmons:Yeah. the Trojan horse, the music of that scene when they're breaking out and it's like, and it's just like building up. Um, this is just an A plus special teams movie. I would bet a lot that Goranson wins the Oscar for this. I would hope so. Score. I also think. just like Sean and Chris said, what I loved about this movie, one of the things, is that Nolan put in all of his classic Nolanisms, but in the most creative versions of those things that I've seen yet. There is the big, you know, Inception-level bass drop. The blah sound is all throughout, but more creatively with the bow. There's the little metal tokens that are given to other characters.

2:17:27parents and children sad wives circular storytelling all of that stuff is here but at the highest level that I've ever seen from him

2:17:42Bill Simmons:number five Ian Hathaway who's absolutely tremendous and I think needed this big picture just for her yeah I think this was a little capper this was like making that last first all NBA team I don't know if she gets nominated for best actress or best supporting. I think I'll give her back. I think it's best. Yeah, right. It's probably best actress. She's in enough of the movie that she could probably go for it. I thought she was awesome. I've been a long time season ticket holder. Same. It's interesting. If you said the first four movies, let's say she stopped acting tomorrow and 50 years from now passes away.

2:18:23Bill Simmons:Maybe 80 years from now. what are the first four movies mentioned in her obituary? What are the four that popped to mind? Are we counting this? Yeah. Are we counting this? I think this would have to be one of the four. I think the Odyssey. I think the Princess Diaries is the breakout. Had that as well. I think Les Mis. And I think The Devil Wears Prada. So I had those four. You also, on the cutting room floor, broke back interstellar dark night rises and rachel getting married which i think she got nominated for i loved but i think you have the right four yeah we're gonna do this later with no one yeah but those are the big four for her and she kind of needed this one she's also by mad calculations has never been in a best picture winner broke back should have won but didn't i think you're right i'll say this too there was a period you remember the hathaway hate This must have been 12 years ago.

2:19:22It made me mad.

2:19:24Bill Simmons:I didn't like it. So the hate, which I never understood, was that she loved what she was doing. Like, that was it. Yeah, it was like she wasn't authentic. She was like, oh, it wasn't authentic how much she liked acting. And it's like, maybe she just likes acting. Yeah, maybe she just loves what she does. Like, get out of here. I'd never understood that. I've always been a longtime fan as well. I thought this movie used all the best pieces of her. Yeah. And she had a couple really great, like, whoof, like Meryl Streep level scenes. There's that speech she gives Telemachus after he tells her, like, maybe, I don't know, maybe you should marry the guys.

2:20:03I don't know. Where she just, like, blows up at him about, like, I've been the queen of this place for 10 years. Nobody treats me as the queen. And she's like, you know what I'd like to do? I'd like to shut the doors, kill everybody. I was like, whoa. Incredible stuff from Hathaway.

2:20:19Bill Simmons:number four we're now in the top four of the mvp ballot so you didn't think this was going to work and you're having a good time it absolutely worked i used to do this with the nba when i had my column i would do my i would do a 400 person mvp ballot but really only have like 28 people on it number four cyclops um this is one of the holy shit it was so fun going the second time with my son and the movie's great and it's going along but i'm like i can't fucking wait for the cyclops scene And to just, when it ended, he just looked at me and it was like he'd just watch a Waymo fly in the air with a family of six and just fly around our house for, it was just awesome.

2:21:00Bill Simmons:And also important to note, I just don't think it works before we have all the technology we have now. I don't think this scene works in 2012. I just think it would have felt fake. I would have loved to see you know as we talked about I think Nolan's done a lot of practical stuff I would love to know how he did that but I was like blown away not just by the feel of the scale of the giant but the creativity of his face the way the eye is kind of sideways and then at the end you're like fuck man they really screwed that Cyclops. I feel bad for the guy. Right. It's terrible. That was awful what happened to him.

2:21:46He was just at home tending his sheep.

2:21:48Bill Simmons:Yeah, he didn't ask for you guys to show up. It was terrible. It also has this great... I mean, everything about that whole section is unbelievable, but it has that great thing of they also have to figure out how to get the fuck out of there. Yeah. And they're going to kill him. They're like, wait, if we kill him, we're just going to die in this cave. We can't do that. So how do we... And then all of a sudden it turns into like a NFL strategy. How do we, how do we attack Cyclops deep? I mean, classic Odysseus, once again, like the man with the plan, everybody's like, well, you got us in here, Odysseus.

2:22:21How do we get out? Oh, I got it. We, we all act like sheep and then he figured it out,

2:22:25Bill Simmons:but then makes the fatal mistake of he shoots him. I mean, that was just pride. That was just pride talking. He got mad. Cyclops took a couple away played by Bill Irwin, by the way, who weirdly played Anne Hathaway's dad. in Rachel getting married. And one of our famed clowns in entertainment has that kind of physical presence of classic clowning, vaudevillian clowning. So when I saw this the first time, I didn't know, I didn't make the Bill Roman connection. I didn't know they used an actual actor to play him. And then not only did they, but he was, you know, they really went all in. Anyway. All right, three left.

2:23:07Bill Simmons:number three the 75 70 millimeter slash imax experience of this movie which is just been honestly has saved movies in some ways with making it an experience where you feel like you have to go this is what they try to do with 3d 15 years ago and it didn't work and now it's at the point where it's now working and i know it's not everywhere yet but and i still feel like if you see this on a normal awesome movie theater it's still an awesome movie yeah but the experience of seeing it the way no one wants you to see it there's nothing like it it's it's so overpowering to see it in that 70 millimeter imax it's words cannot describe the power of it it is like that uh you know the cinema meme come to life the scorsese picture where he's got his arms out Like that's, that's what it is.

2:24:04See somebody's, you know, Anne Hathaway giving a fire monologue with her face 40 feet tall. You're just like, man, this is the movies. This is what it's about.

2:24:13Bill Simmons:Combined with the sound, which has also gotten really better in these movie theaters too. And there's some great sound in this movie, but just, just an experience. And it's so funny. Like when you think back to that 3D era where they're like, this is how we're going to have to keep people in theaters. And we're going to have them put these fucking glasses on that give you a headache, but it's going to feel different than being at home. And it's like, no, you could actually just have the screen be way better and, you know, spend more money on the cameras. The thing that I hated about the 3D, the attempt to make 3D happen, like the attempt to make fetch happen was it was so forced.

2:24:48There was always a forced moment where like some bad guy gets his arm cut off and then the arm has to float towards the screen, towards you. There It always had to be that. And it was like, oh, great. Here's the scene that the 3D manufacturers made them put in to show how the 3D worked. You don't need that with IMAX. You just need the power of the movies.

2:25:10Bill Simmons:I remember seeing Friday the 13th 3D in the early 80s at a movie theater. And they have what you just mentioned was a specific scene. Jason has like a bow and arrow on fire and shoots the arrow and it comes right toward the camera. And it was like the big 3D moment. Guess what? Didn't need the glasses for that. I, uh, I, you know, they talk about a movie tickets get more expensive and all this stuff. I would double down on this. I would have like the IMAX, the seven 30 showings. I would make them five, six times as much in the big cities for the first couple of weeks. Like I, I would like to see these movies make more money because then they'll make more of these movies.

2:25:51Bill Simmons:So if they have to rig the first couple of weeks with the tickets and drive it up and drive interest, It's like, I'm all for it if you're going to make more of the Odyssey, you know? I love this idea. Let's rig the box office. Let's do it. Let's rig it. I'm for it. Listen, in LA, like last night, if they had charged for those four rows in the middle, if they just said, yeah, these are 150 bucks tonight, that would happen. Like my daughter wanted to go to the Red Sox game tonight because by the way, they won 15 straight and the tickets are through the roof. Like you can't find them because everybody wants to go.

2:26:26Bill Simmons:It's like, why don't we have that mentality with movies? I would, I would just have specific rows where they could make more money because if they make more money, they'll make more movies like this. I don't think it's rocket science. And it's not like you have to pay for those tickets, like pay for them wherever. Uh, I was thinking about how fortunate we are to live in LA where there's multiple IMAX theaters. My brother-in-law lives in London. There's only one in the whole country. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Kyle Mann, who was on here before you, was saying he would have to drive somewhere just to see it on like a B-plus movie screen, right?

2:27:02Bill Simmons:In Boston, there's like two. And it'll still look great. Yeah. In Boston, there's two. Like if you live in, if you're like vacationing in Wyoming right now or something, you're not getting the great experience. But I'm sure we'll have more. The fact that they're consistently coming out with these now. Like Spider-Man's coming in two weeks. That's going to be an IMAX movie. And so there's going to be a regular cycle of these, which makes me think the other one. All right. Last two. Who do you think was two and who do you think was one between Damon and Nolan? I think Damon is two. I think Nolan is one.

2:27:35Bill Simmons:That was what I had on my ballot. So I talked about Damon and Leo for 35 minutes with CR on Sunday. I don't need to keep talking about Damon. But we want to hear your Matt Damon thoughts. Well, here's my Nolan theory. This is the culmination of everything that Damon has been doing over the course of his career. Broke out as a young actor, as a boy genius, right, in Good Will Hunting. Here plays the grizzled old genius, everybody talking about, like, how brilliant he is as a guy. in this movie plays like a noted trickster a liar kind of a con man pulling from his Tom Ripley performance he's also Jason Bourne the amnesiac trying to get home somewhere and trying to remember who he is with he's also and he with fight scene and he's also the Martian the man who is stranded, living by his wits, who is trying to figure out a way off, in this case, the island, but in that case, Mars.

2:28:41This is everything that he's been doing up to now in one movie. And a little We Bought a Zoo with the dog. A little bit, a little bit. Get the sprinkling of We Bought a Zoo.

2:28:54Bill Simmons:His love for animals. We've worked out with it as well. Maybe a little bit of Invictus. Sure, yeah. fighting in front of large groups of people. All right. Damon was just as good the second time. I'm proud I met Damon. All right. Nolan, who, I mean, this is, this is the, I think this is the best movie he's ever done. Other people would argue with it, but I just feel like degree of difficulty. Everybody who worked on this movie was like, I can't even tell you how hard that was. I can't believe how grueling that was. I'm glad I did it. I'll never do anything like that ever again. Um, he just went for it, which I love, but he's hit this point in his career where he's made enough movies now where I think everybody has a different top four for him.

2:29:40Bill Simmons:Like mine would be the Odyssey, dark night memento. And I think dark night rises would be my fourth. Okay. But you probably have a different four. And I think Sean and Chris would probably have a different four and name anybody. Horvath would have a different four. Um, because he's had enough of these now. Yeah, I would go for me. It's the Odyssey, Dunkirk, Dark Knight, Batman Begins. But, you know, there's a lot of other, you know, I think all the other ones are valid. It's just incredible. I think this is like. If you had bought Spielberg stock, like after E.T., this is like the heat check that he's on.

2:30:24Bill Simmons:This is his E.T. moment. you know dark night's 08 yes this is 26 so you're talking and i thought dark night is in the running for best movies of the first 25 years i completely agree um it's at least in the conversation and at some point it becomes subjective and not objective but um it's in the running this will be in the this will be in the mix for the next 25 years but to have two of those 18 years apart that's also not a long list i mean that's you're going into the scorsese spielberg area of did you put two kick-ass awesome memorable all-timers but 20 years apart basically it's not easy i mean you know with the dark knight as a as a comics guy that changed the way the joker was depicted in the comics.

2:31:18They were like, and that's never really happened before. You know, obviously Jack Nicholson, iconic Joker that didn't, they didn't change the way the Joker looked in the comics after Heath Ledger's performance. They were like, actually, that's incredible. Let's do him like that in the comic books.

2:31:34Bill Simmons:One of the things I've heard people are talking about, this is the movie industry has changed. Now the directors are the IP. Now the, this is a theme now of like, Instead of the comic book and the suits and the capes, the directors are now going to be the ones. I was like, that's always been the case, man. I went to see Jackie Brown in New York City in 1997 because Tarantino had a new movie coming out. That's never changed. We just have more good directors now. We're in a nice little run of talent. The trailer, I believe the trailer for Jackie Brown was like one of the first frames was the new film from Quentin Tarantino.

2:32:18It's always been like that. The latest from Steven Spielberg. It's Steven Spielberg's Jaws. The closure date just now.

2:32:26Bill Simmons:This is a Spielberg movie. I think the difference with Nolan is he's making movies that are big scale for as many people as possible, but also the best possible version of reaching the most people, basically, which is the hardest thing to do. This is why Spielberg is the best ever. Spielberg was able to make big ass movies for the most people possible that made a ton of money that were also really, really, really good. And that's the hardest level of this. All right. That's my MVP bout. Did we leave anything else out? No, I think that's it. That's comprehensive. We did a hundred. It's a hundred.

2:33:04We did a hundred, give or take 50. Yeah. I didn't think it was possible. Much like Odysseus's journey home, I did not think it was possible. And it was, we accomplished it.

2:33:14Bill Simmons:All right, Jace Concepcion, you still basking in the glow of the Knicks? I will not stop basking until the season starts. I'm absolutely basking. I'll be interested to see how they screw up the first home game. It's like, don't overthink it, James Dolan. Just throw some pitches down the middle. All the fans want to do is see the rings and the band. Like, don't overthink it. You think he makes a speech? just be careful. I, the parade, I thought the parade, definitely the mic was getting passed around. And I just, just, you know, you almost can't screw up the night when you raise the banner. It's almost an unassailable night.

2:34:00It is disconcerting to see him moving around with this much confidence and freedom.

2:34:04Bill Simmons:Where do you want LeBron to go? Where do you want LeBron to go, by the way? You know what? I, and I said this, I said this previously and I mean it. I think, Cleveland makes the most sense. And also, I want him to go there because it will be incredibly satisfying when the Knicks wash the Cleveland Cavaliers once again, but this time with LeBron James. With the ball movement as LeBron and Harden are just like, what's happening? Yeah. The ball keeps going over there. No, no, it's there. I mean, I think at this point, they should just like do like the Pope smoke for when it actually happens because we're just like waiting.

2:34:41Just let us know.

2:34:42Bill Simmons:No, he's milking the summer now. All right. Thanks for doing that with me, Jason. I had a good time. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. All right. All right. Thanks so much to House and Kyle and Concepcion and Gahal and Eduardo and everybody at Spotify. If you missed it, I went on the Game Over podcast with Richard Max, by the way. It was really fun. I was just in the office when they were about to do it, so I ended up crashing it. I think I'm going to be Amina Kimes' podcast. I think that's running this week as well. and I'm probably not going to talk about the ESPN stuff, but Press Box with the Press Box podcast with Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker did a really good job talking about that.

2:35:22Bill Simmons:So I'm going to be back on this podcast on Sunday and then live rewatchables on Monday. So enjoy the rest of the week. See you this weekend.

2:35:40Bill Simmons:Feel it with him On the wayside On the first side of the road

2:36:10Bill Simmons:dot org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods. It's hot out there, folks. Whether you're planning a family road trip, backyard barbecues, or a watch party, you'll find everything you need to beat the heat with the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. Find sales on best of summer fruit, stock up on cooler friendly drinks, and discover no antibiotics ever meets for the grill. You know, something like a New York strip steak, plus made in-house kebabs, skewers, and sausages.

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