Crazy NFL Trade Deadline Swings and the Future of Filmmaking With Sheil Kapadia, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan

21:41Bill Simmons:But the hits that he's taken the last three weeks, this is all I talk about on my Pat's threads. He's 17 sacks in the last three weeks and six in the last two. And I thought Atlanta really pushed him around and gotten his – I thought they made it really difficult for him. I'm really worried about the injury possibility with them. I don't think they have a lot of depth. But this schedule, they might be able to get a two-seat and be that team that we all look at. And they're like, you know, underdogs in a round two home playoff game because nobody believes it's legitimate, which would be great. I would take that right now.

22:16Yeah, Vrabel has won as an underdog before in the playoffs. I think, you know. I would trust Drake May. I mean, the other thing with Daniel Jones, and I feel like I'm really, I'm going to, you know, Colts fans, sorry. but he's never gotten through a season and played well and been healthy the entire, I mean, he, he has a very long injury history as well. So that's far from a guarantee. So I think I would go bills, chiefs, Ravens. And I think I would have the Patriots ahead of the Colts. Wow.

22:46Bill Simmons:I would go, I'd go, uh, yeah. Bill's chiefs, one, a one B in some order. I want to see more, but that they're right. They have to be the top two. Yeah. I'd go Denver three. I think I'd go Indy four, New England five. Okay. Baltimore has too much room for error with the way they've constructed their season. Any other injury, and they might not even... Plus, you have Pittsburgh, who just has... Pittsburgh's this year's horseshoe up the ass team. Right. And the Steelers fans both know it, but then also get mad and say, what do you mean? It's like, all right, we had 11 turnovers forced against the Colts and Pats.

23:28Bill Simmons:Like, that's unusual. Let's all agree that that's unusual. Like punts hitting a punt returner. That doesn't happen with other teams. It's just you guys. So I'd probably have the Steelers seventh out of that crew. Yeah, I don't... And the Chargers are a cross-off. The Chargers traded for a tackle from the Saints today. I think less to try to win the title and more to just make sure Justin Herbert doesn't get killed. That was my takeaway on that trade. Yeah, I don't think they can, And with, I mean, you lose two offensive tackles. And if you look at their numbers this year, when Joe Alt has been on the field or off the field, I mean, it turns them from like the sixth ranked offense to like the 23rd ranked offense.

24:07So I just don't think they can withstand that. So, I mean, yeah, I'm with you. I just, it is very, now I was slow on Darnold last year. I was slow on the Vikings, but it is just very hard for me to get to a point. You're rightfully slow, they lost. I guess so, yeah. But it's just, I mean, Daniel Jones is going to beat Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes in a playoff or even Lamar Jackson in a playoff game, that Colts team? Right. I don't know.

24:32Bill Simmons:I was trying in my head to look at Houston every year, as you know, because we both studied the same stuff. There's always the second half jump team. That's like two and six, three and five, and they make the jump. And I thought Houston had a real case to do that with the defense they have and getting their receivers healthy, et cetera, et cetera. That loss last week made me so mad. I'm still mad about it. I still can't believe the game management. And I really worry about, I think the coaching stuff has been really dicey with them. And I think people have just, because they made the playoffs the first year, everybody's like, remember we were celebrating Ryan's and Bobby Sloick.

25:12Bill Simmons:Bobby Sloick's not there anymore. And Ryan's, the stuff he did on Sunday, I just was, I thought it was really, really concerning. Like that, get to overtime. you're not going 60 yards with Davis Mills in 70 seconds to kick a field goal. Like Davis Mills has done nothing for two hours. And to not read that, I just thought, right, really made me, made me, uh, turn on them. And then you zoom out. If you're a defensive head coach, your biggest hire is, can you find an offensive coordinator? And he's, you know, he didn't have it the first time to say, and then personnel wise, I mean, their offensive line is still terrible.

25:49So I'm with you. I I've been holding, you know, my ringer one Oh seven record is so bad. If you take out my Texans picks, I swear on 500. I mean, I lost on them every single week, but yeah, their defense is so good. I still like Stroud, even though he's developed bad habits, but yeah, last week's loss. Now he's got the concussion. I think you're right. That it's probably too much has happened with them. Yeah.

26:11Bill Simmons:All right. We'll take a break and then, uh, let's talk Dallas. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Thursday Night Football continues to deliver and FanDuel is keeping the energy up with their$2 million Thursday Night Football jackpot. You heard me. Placed in any time touchdown score bet using your profit boost. And if your player scores the first or last touchdown of the game, you'll earn a share of$2 million in bonus bets. So for this game, Vegas versus Denver, I'm feeling R.J. Harvey. Yeah, I think R.J. Harvey, second half of the season, rookie running back, something good with him.

26:50Bill Simmons:So you can check out R.J. Harvey's touchdown bet. You can head to fanduel.com slash BS to download the app and get started. FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of the NFL. Must be 21-plus president in select states are 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Opt-in, must apply profit, who's token on select market, prize pool to be split equally among all eligible participants who made the correct first or last TD pick. Bonus issued as non-retrawable bonus bet, which expires 21 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandle.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or visit rg-help.com.

27:26Bill Simmons:Call 1-888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. it. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every football season, the same thing happens. The game somehow makes everybody really hungry. Quarterback scrambles, clearly a sign for breakfast burritos. Yeah. Turnover, suddenly dessert at 2 p.m. doesn't sound so crazy. Wing formations, well, those can only mean buffalo wings, as if they're ever not in play. Even the goalposts start looking suspiciously like french fries. It's almost like football is sending the message to eat more food. Yeah, the good news, Uber Eats makes those cravings easy to satisfy with game day deals all season long.

28:08Bill Simmons:From wings and pizza to chips, drinks, and even last minute grocery runs. Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. All right, the Dallas Cowboys. I'm proud of us that we didn't lead with them. Maybe one of the only football podcasts or shows that didn't lead with Dallas. just kudos fist pump for us. Dallas is drunk. This is one of the worst. You can make a case for the indie trade. I still didn't like it. If we were doing grades, I'd be in the C minus D plus range. This Dallas trade is fucking bonkers. This is like a crazy NBA trade from the 2000s.

28:48Bill Simmons:If I was a Cowboys fan, my head would be doing 360s. You're three, five and one. You have no chance to do anything in the playoffs. What are you doing? You should be absolutely livid. So here's the, you add it all up and here's what the Cowboys essentially traded if you add up the Parsons trade. So they traded Micah Parsons and a second for Quinnen Williams, Kenny Clark, and a first. Plus they get some cap space and money. So essentially they move up from the second round to the first round and swap Parsons for Quinnen Williams and Kenny Clark. And though, let's not forget this. They lost games this year because they didn't have Micah Parsons.

29:31And so now you're in a hole here. They don't know what I mean.

29:35Bill Simmons:And you're giving away this year's pick that you made worse because you traded Micah Parsons, basically. That's right. Congratulations on that. That's you've made history. And the 2027 pick, by the way, nice move by the Jets. This is according to the reports out there is the higher of their pick or the Packers pick. So like if Jordan Love goes down with an injury next year and the Packers have a bad season, like you get a little bit of optionality there with that as well. And who knows what the Cowboys are going to say that again. Yeah, I didn't see this. So is a new wrinkle. Yeah, this is a new wrinkle.

30:08So the 2027 first round pick that goes to the Jets as part of this Quinn and Williams tree, the Jets get the higher of the Cowboys pick or the Packers pick. So that's a nice move there by the Jets that just, if you like, you know, if Dak Prescott has an injury next year, if Jordan Love has an injury and one of those teams goes really bad, now all of a sudden you have an even higher pick. So can I tell you, do you know how many sacks Quinn and Williams has this year?

30:39three one he has one sack he has three quarterback hits and he ranks 90th in the nfl in pressures now i'm not trying to kill him i think he's a very good run stopper i think he's a very good defensive tackle i am not giving up a first and then a second with flexa you know or second and then a first with flexibility for Quinn and Williams months after I traded away Micah Parsons. Just unbelievable mismanagement.

31:11Bill Simmons:These Jets trades are so crazy. As you were recounting what they got in my head, they got two firsts for Quinn Williams because this day was so crazy. Yeah. But yeah, that. Wow. The 27 draft, everyone's saying is so loaded.

31:33So what...

31:35Bill Simmons:All right, you're in the room with Jerry Jones. How do you stop him from doing this? What's your case? I mean, I have no idea how you stop him from doing this. I would have stopped him from doing the Micah Parsons trailer. I would have tried my hardest. At that one, I would have gone to the point where I'm locking us in the room or taking away his keys or grabbing his cell phone. Whatever I need to do, getting him another drink and just saying, Jerry, let's sleep on it and talk about it tomorrow here. But then to come back, I mean, he's been foreshadowing this for weeks and months now where he has done his weekly radio appearances and been like, well, don't sleep on us, you know, trading one of these picks for a player.

32:17We're gonna improve that defense. And it's like, all right, if the right deal comes along, go ahead and do that. But I would not have done it for this deal in a season where you just lost on Monday night and look terrible and are three, five and one. And so you're essentially doing this for what? Next season now? Or you think you're making a run this season? I don't get it at all. That's the key point is you were terrible last night. Yeah.

32:40Bill Simmons:By the way, this trade's probably still sitting there in February or March. 100%. Right? 100%. Why not just wait? What are you guys doing? They were so bad last night. We had Bursette last year in the Patriots. he first of all couldn't really move he was so bad that it was a whole conundrum with the Pats fans like do we throw Drake May in even though we can't block and just hope he survives the year over having to watch another Brissette game and then I don't know what's happened to him in Arizona maybe the offense is better but he demolished Dallas last night right and that was they were not one Quinn and Williams away from oh this game would have been totally different if we had been able to control the middle line.

33:27Bill Simmons:Guys were wide open all over the place. They were doing whatever they wanted offensively. So, this is just like, honestly, it's like deranged old man behavior. It is. It's the kind of thing like when you're watching TV shows and they have the old guy who owns the oil bear and the 85-year-old grandpa and it's like, wow, he still has the car keys to the business, but we got to figure out how to get away from him. That's where we are now with this guy. And he, and he won't turn down an interview with anybody. Like he invited Stephen A. Smith. He's doing a live series show. It's like, what are you doing interviews about?

34:05Bill Simmons:You guys haven't haven't made a super bowl in 35 years. Listen, I'll give him credit. He's good for content and he knows the content waves. You know, he was foreshadowing that he was going to make a trade and then everyone's waiting and they trade for Logan Wilson, the linebacker who can't get on the field for the worst defense in the NFL and the Bengals. And you're like, wait a minute, Was this the trade he was actually foreshadowing? So he did make a splashy trade eventually. So nice job with him with the content. They got a lot of headlines in the offseason with Parsons. They got a lot of TV segments.

34:38So I guess if you throw all of that into the trade along with the picks, maybe it comes out a little bit more even in his eyes. This is a good example of let's remove the second round pick.

34:50Bill Simmons:Would you trade your first? And it's the higher pick between the Cowboys and Packers for Quinn and Williams. I don't know I would even do that if I was 3-5-1. I'm just waiting until March now, right? Yeah, that you could at least consider. That wouldn't be unreasonable. He's 28 years old. He's under contract. I think he's like a top five, top 10 defensive tackle. So you could at least talk me into that making some sense, but it's not a no-brainer. It's not a home run. And now you threw in the second round pick as well. The rest of the league must love having Jerry Jones in the NFL allowed to make trades.

35:25Bill Simmons:Did you have the Cowboys as a playoff team before the year? I did before the Micah Parsons trade. Pre-Parsons trade, you had him in? Yeah, then post-Parsons trade, I didn't. I had him out after the trade. Well, they're going to be really bad. Their schedule after this Raiders game, Eagles, Chiefs, Lions, Vikings, Chargers are all on the docket. Wow. Yeah. So if you're the Jets, like kudos to the Jets fans. Now you have teams to root against, right? You have these extra draft picks. You can throw yourself into the 2026 draft. It doesn't really matter anymore if you go one and 16. Yeah. I guess the one thing is they weren't able to trade Brees Hall, which I thought was surprising.

36:16Bill Simmons:And, you know, they wanted a third round pick for him, I guess. I did think about it for the Pats. I wouldn't have done it. But if the price was a fourth round pick, I would have done it. I thought the chiefs, I mean, I was doing fake trades on the ringer NFL show and I'm like a fourth that maybe can turn into a third. If he does certain things here, that's an AFC title game. It's a third rounder. Yeah. I mean, I don't really understand playing hardball with that. He, again, he's a free agent at the end of the season. So if you're not bringing him back, you see what the best deal is and you just take the best deal rather than say, no, we're holding cause you're holding out and now you got nothing for him.

36:49And now he's probably walking at the end of the season.

36:52Bill Simmons:Well, I don't think they wanted to trade him in division. I'm trying to think for the NFC teams, none of the contenders really would have needed him, right? Just go through. I can't find a single one that would have wanted him. So that means you're looking at the AFC, and you look at the top AFC teams. I just don't think any – the Pats were really the only hope for them unless they were looking at the Chargers. And if you're the Chargers, like what – now that you – the Chargers lost both their tackles. They're not making the Super Bowl. They lost two of the best five guys in their team. So they're out.

37:27Bill Simmons:And then you go through. It's a weird one. What did you think about, you know, it wasn't like a huge price, but Jacksonville getting Jacoby Myers. I was just thinking like the amount of picks and money that they've thrown at running back and receiver to try to show that Trevor Lawrence can be a franchise guy. It's kind of staggering. It, I was unmoved, I guess would be the kind way to, uh, to put that with Jacoby Myers. Yeah, I mean, he didn't give up much. You know, I think they gave up a fourth and a sixth. He's okay. It's just, yeah, that doesn't move the needle for me. Travis Hunter's injured.

38:00Bill Simmons:He's okay and the Jags are okay. Yeah, the Jags are okay. I mean, the Jags are such a dumb team. It just feels like they can't get through a drive without doing something absurd, whether it's a penalty, a drop pass, a miss Trevor Lawrence throw. Their red zone stuff is the best. Oh my God. One of the most entertaining things about the season so far. When they're inside the 10, it almost feels like you're entering like the Matrix. my favorite trade was Shahid I thought the Seahawks had a real chance to make the Super Bowl even before Sunday night because of their defense and the way they can throw the ball and they can block better than people think and what happened to the Niners etc etc etc and adding Shahid with the way that Darnold's been throwing the ball and how good Smith and Jigba's been and then they have Horton too Kup nobody knows if he'll be available in January.

38:52Bill Simmons:But Shahid is like, that's like a real dude that could have a huge impact for them. It fits what Darnold's strengths are. I really like that trade. Third rounder, I think. Love it. Fourth and a fifth. So they didn't even have to give up. Yeah, fourth and a fifth. And I think it makes sense for the reasons. Right now, Jackson Smith and Jigba has 948 receiving yards. No other receiver on their team has more than 293. I mean, that's shocking. when somebody else makes a catch. Yeah. You're like, 85? Wait, who's that? I forgot. What guy is that? Yeah. So Shahid played for their offensive coordinator, Clint Kubiak in New Orleans.

39:29So it's like, all right, he's going to know the offense. He's going to be a scheme fit. I thought that was one that made a lot of sense. They just kind of need another pass catcher there. So that might have been the best trade of the trade deadline day.

39:42Bill Simmons:Best value, certainly. I think if you're giving a fourth for a guy who can swing your playoff destiny a little bit. I mean, same thing for Jalen Phillips that the Eagles got for your team. I know you already talked about it, but I don't think he was playing that great. He certainly wasn't jumping out of the TV for the Dolphins, but how he always stockpiles all these extra things and then he can just kind of give one away and take a flyer on people. But you were okay with that trade. Yeah, I thought that was a good trade. My whole thing with trade deadline is if you have a realistic shot to win the Super Bowl, I am fine with you being as aggressive as you want to be.

40:19And Phillips has played for Vic Fangio before. It's just a rental. You don't owe him money after this season. I think when teams get into trouble is when they talk themselves into stuff and then get really aggressive. And then you get to the spring and you're like, man, why did we give away that draft pick? Or you get to next year and you're like, why did we give away that draft pick? But, you know, FanDuel has the Eagles as the favorites in the NFC right now. I was looking earlier today. So they haven't had those like season ending injuries that some of these other teams have had. Like their guys who have been injured are all coming back.

40:51So yeah, that was a, I mean, their pass rush hasn't been very good. So you add a player, you take a swing and you see if he can help you.

40:58Bill Simmons:Eagles plus 380, Rams plus 440, which I think is really surprising. I would not have guessed that they had the second best outs. Lions plus 450, Packers 5-1, Seahawks 6-1, Tampa 11-1. I think the Seahawks should have the second best odds. I think they're the second best team in the NFC right now behind the Eagles. The Eagles have the pedigree. They have just a shitload of talent. They've been there before. We know what we're getting with them. I think Seattle's really good. Those five are in the top tier, I think. I change my mind every single day. But yeah, I mean, you watch that Seahawks game from Sunday night, and you're just like, man, they are explosive on offense.

41:37I trust their defense against great quarterbacks. Like if they had to face Matthew Stafford and I think they play in a couple of weeks here, so we'll see, but like, they're going to have a plan and they're not going to get blown out. I think their defense is too good to get blown out. So their offense is going to stay in it. Yeah. Those are, it's going to come down to just like, all right, who's healthy in January. But those to me are the five teams that can actually come out of the NFC. Yeah.

42:01Bill Simmons:One thing I'd like to look at, especially around now is, are you in every game? Have you played shit games? have what's your record in either war games and stuff like that. The Patriots, I know that the schedule, by the way, is 16th strength of schedule. It's not quite as bad as everyone thinks, but they've played six shit teams. Patriots have only been, how many times do you think they've been behind by 10 points this year? Behind? I can't remember in that Raiders game. It's not a lot. Once? Yeah, the Raiders game. Raiders game. They were down exactly by 10. Seattle's another one. Seattle has two losses, but had a chance to win both of those games.

42:39Bill Simmons:They haven't really played a shit game. They haven't been behind. You look at the Broncos. The Broncos have been behind by 14, 10, 18, and they've climbed back. But I feel the same way in basketball. I think it's a bad sign when you're just way behind in games. And I look at Seattle versus the Packers, where the Packers have just played a couple shit games. Yeah. The Browns game was a shit game. The one last week, that Panthers game, that was like just a shit performance. And it makes me not trust them. But I think that's the Matt LaFleur error in a nutshell. You just kind of never know when this shit game's coming.

43:17Yeah. Yeah. The Packers are the NBA team that regular season, you're like, and then they think they can flip the switch in the playoffs, which you know, there's NBA teams that, but the Packers like haven't done anything to warrant that. That's my thing with them. It's like if they were defending Super Bowl champs and this was happening or they always get there and you're like, oh, we've seen this before. Like the Chiefs. You're like, all right, we kind of know where this team's going to be. But they haven't done that yet they still just play with their food for a half every single game. And I think they're still really good.

43:48I think they have a high ceiling, but they are a pretty frustrating team to watch. The Kraft thing's massive.

43:54Bill Simmons:Huge. I just couldn't believe that. Not to mention I had him on a couple of fantasy teams. But I just thought he was really blossoming as like, oh, it's third and five. You know where they're going. He was really becoming one of those guys in real time. And I'm not sure. Maybe there's more Matthew Golden now. I'm not sure. Where are they going on third and eight? I think it's always a great thing to think about. I think this is the thing I worry about with Buffalo. Like in a playoff game, we're down three, there's six minutes left. Where am I going on third and eight if Josh can't do something?

44:27Bill Simmons:Who is the guy? Is it Kincaid? Is it Cook coming out of the backfield? Who is your guy in this spot? The Pats have at least found digs, right? The Chiefs, they always have Kelsey and now they have Rice back. But yeah, Green Bay, I don't really know who that guy is. Yeah. Who's going to get you a bucket? It's man coverage. They're not playing soft. It's third and long. I'm with you. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that the Packers do have that guy, you know? So that's a big... I thought Kraft was the best tight end in the NFL. I mean, he was a beast. Like now Brock Bowers, I can be like, all right, Brock Bowers now that he came back, he was ridiculous.

45:04Bill Simmons:That Brock Bowers performance on Sunday, he did in week one, got hurt, took eight weeks off. And he was, I mean, that was one of the best games anyone's played all year. They were like, they were just trying to take them out. They couldn't even take them out. They were just moving them around doing different things. Yeah. Very uncommon for a tight end can just like lift your entire offense. But I thought Kraft had the belt before Bowers came back. And so you're losing. I mean, any of these contenders, you lose like your go-to guy in the passing game. I think it's a big, big deal. So who do you have in the NFC?

45:36I still am sticking with my preseason pick, which was the Eagles getting back to the Superbowl, especially when you look at their division and how it's going, like they're not going to be needing to sweat that out down the stretch. So I think they're in a good spot just from a health standpoint, but I changed my mind every week on that. I had the Packers last week or two weeks ago. So who knows? I had the Packers before the year.

45:59Bill Simmons:The Kraft thing. I want to see what happens with Seattle over these next two, three weeks because people now know they're good. Yeah. Right. They're in a different space now. This is like, hey, this is a real team. We got to get up for this game and I want to see how they handle it. But the Darnold thing was been a home run. We didn't know if that was like Darnold versus Gino. How's this going to work out? Is Darnold damaged goods? He was so bad. and Darnold's doing great. They can block. Yeah. The defense is probably, it has to be in the top three, depending on what's going on with your defense, top three or top four.

46:37Bill Simmons:So I don't know. If I had to pick from a value standpoint right now, I would probably do Denver with Seattle, which is, what do you think that is? Denver versus Seattle in the Super Bowl. Oh my gosh. Just for a value pick. Plus, just got to be, man, 900? Am I close? It's 50 to one. Oh my gosh. That's not even close. Well, put the Eagles in there instead with Denver and that's 36 to one. You put Seattle with, let's say Buffalo, 25 to one. but I think Seattle I think they really have a chance to get like a two seed and if they get a two seed and they get at least that first home game and then the two three they have two home games and then defense travels and they go into Philly potentially and I think they'd have a chance but then you'd have Darnold on the road on grass which you know after interception three you're like why did I bet on this?

47:42Bill Simmons:Yeah. The biggest thing with Seattle is like the way they want to play offensively is they get like like all the tight ends and the fullback on the field on early downs. And then you bring on your big, and then they create the, they do play action and then they hit you with explosive plays downfield. So my question with them is like, if it's the fourth quarter and they're down by 10 and the defense is like, screw you, you can run the ball if you want to. We're not loading up to stop the run. Can they do it? They've only attempted 48 passes this season when trailing in a game. It's by far the fewest of any team in the NFL.

48:14So I'm not saying they can't do it. Darnold has looked great, But that to me is kind of what I want to see here in the weeks ahead. Like I said, they get the Rams in a couple of weeks. They get some of these opponents that maybe we'll see them in that kind of game script. But they've looked legit. There's really nothing to knock about the Seahawks so far.

48:30Bill Simmons:Well, and now a Shahid. Who knows? Might tilt the field a little. All right. Before we go, give us 48 seconds on B.J. Edgecombe and what he's meant to you these past six weeks. I haven't been this into a Sixers team in 25 years. And people laugh at me. They're like, what are you talking about? The last eight years, 10 years haven't been that bad. And I'm like, I've never just the watchability where I'm like, when do they play next? And like adding it, okay, they're there at seven. I'm going to pot it this time. I'll catch it on DVR. That type of energy that you have with the team that you love hasn't been there for me in 25 years.

49:03I knew he was springy. I knew he was athletic. I knew he was competitive. The basketball IQ on this guy, he is making unbelievable passes and just mentally sharp plays and his teammates love him. And you say like everything about him, uh, is just so exciting. So this is, yeah, they get McCain back, uh, later, I think on, on Tuesday night here. So the best part for me is that the whole is MB playing is he, it doesn't matter. Like he, Oh, and beats going to the locker room. Cool. I'm still locked in and I can't wait to watch the second half with this team. So I have been just energized by this team, uh, this season.

49:42I don't care if they win the championship. So you're going back to 0-1 Iverson. Yeah, my favorite team of all time. That's the last time you were this excited. Senior in high school.

49:49Bill Simmons:So we go through the 2012 when they almost snuck into the, where did they go, most Eastern finals with the Derrick Rose. Doug Collins. That was fun. That was fun. All the process, 2018 when they lost to the Celtics. 2019, losing in the last second to Toronto. No? I wasn't. Listen, 17, I was into it because it was like for the first time, They now have a, you know, they're finally back in the playoffs. But this, again, is just the, hey, it's a Tuesday. It's a Tuesday in January. They're playing the Hornets at 7 o 'clock. Do I want to watch that or do I want to, you know, watch Catch Up on Landman with my wife?

50:27No, I'm watching the Sixers. We'll watch Landman. That kind of energy is what really has me pumped. Well, don't turn your back on Landman. No.

50:33Bill Simmons:Yeah, Maxi and BJ, none of it, nothing else matters. You have your two guys. You'll be able to build around them. Edgecombe's going to be in this contract for I don't know, three, four years before they have to extend it. And if I'm Utah, if I'm a Utah fan and I could have potentially traded Markkinen, taken Paul George back, but gotten that third pick and that third and three and five and gotten Edgecombe, that one would be haunting me because I wonder if that was possible. Because Darryl was definitely shopping that three pick trying to look at who was around. and you know anyway it all worked out I'm with you when league passes on I'm like oh the Sixers are on this will be fun like they've just turned into one of those teams where I was like I hated watching them the last couple years I couldn't stand it there was just everything about it the energy the crowd was off now it feels like a Philly crowd again like they really like these guys so anyway congratulations I was googling some eight game plans earlier today Bill my daughter wants to go oh yeah I'm excited Yeah, I can't wait.

51:39Bill Simmons:All right. You can hear Shea on the Ringer NFL show and on the Philly special. And I'm going to pop on Ringer NFL at some point in the next couple of weeks. Maybe after, if the Pats have a good win, that might be my virgin appearance. But good to see you. Thanks for coming up. Can't wait. Talk to you soon. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Countless hours in the gym. A thousand shots before tip-off. Day after day on the same court with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right. the best players put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well.

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53:35Bill Simmons:All right, as promised, this is the conversation that Sean Fentasy and Ben Latham and I had near the end of a Rewatchables taping on Monday that went for so long, we just decided to run it here. And it's about movies and creativity and what drives people and all kinds of things. And it goes all over the place. And we all had a really good time arguing about it. And we just thought, you know what? Let's run it here on the BS podcast. So that's what you're about to see. We taped this on Monday. I was thinking about this. if this movie came out today, this exact movie, would people think it was good or terrible?

54:09I would argue probably people would not like this movie if it came out right. The exact same movie comes out tonight. I feel like it would get panned.

54:15Sean Fennessey:It would be a streaming movie for sure. Right. It just wouldn't go into theaters as a movie like this. I guess you could say that the most recent Austin Butler movie, Caught Stealing, is like kind of like this movie where it's just like a crime drama with a movie star at the middle of it with some kind of gnarly incidents. But I... I mean, this movie costs$75 million. Yeah. So this is my thing. But is the bar higher? Are the stakes higher now? Like, why would this movie, if it's the exact same movie, why wouldn't it work now? Well, it's not that it wouldn't work. It's about why you, to me, to me, and Sean could probably give a more thoughtful answer, but when the movies like this are back in theaters, to me, that will be when that experience is back.

54:54Like, I look at films like this, cool ideas executed by really talented people for everyone to see, but you have to get up and go to the movies to see it. it's no IP it's slightly smaller in terms of like what it's saying I guess but at the same time there's no IP but this movie has a gigantic movie star a legendary director a big budget there are reasons to go and see something like this but as long as movies that this movie would exist on streaming now I think that's kind of the problem at least well

55:23Sean Fennessey:one of the probably I would guess the single most popular genre of movie on this show over the years if you had to do like a data analysis of every genre it's probably crime thriller right? Yeah. Action thriller. Action thriller. Yeah that's one of your favorite kinds of movies. Those movies are really fun to talk about. They're the most fun to talk about because they always have nitpicks. But those are movies specifically that don't work now. Yes. That you don't see coming out. They also all have like a hint of kind of being funny because there's some cheesiness in them. Yes. Yeah. And that's completely gone now.

55:54And again I don't know why that is.

55:55Sean Fennessey:De Palma has a big sense of humor. He doesn't do comedy ever. But he has a really good sense of humor about characterization. What's the specific thing about the action thriller that you feel like audiences aren't responding to. I think it's because it's just in, it's in the middle. And so there's no, it's like this movie costs a lot of money to make. It's shot in like an arena with hundreds of extras. It's got a big set piece with this rolling ball coming down the hill. Like it has the trappings of a big movie. And this would probably be panned as a movie that was not profitable because it made a little bit more than its budget, but it probably ultimately lost money.

56:26Although maybe with the DVD sales, it didn't. That's another thing. Totally. But now, if this happened now and it was a$70 million movie that made like, 95, the Variety would write about how this movie lost money. Not profitable for De Palma.

56:38Bill Simmons:Maybe we should just shoot Variety into the fiery pits of the sun. How about that idea? I'm definitely

56:43Sean Fennessey:sick of reading those stories.

56:44Bill Simmons:I don't know. Why do those stories exist? Why didn't they do that with the Dodgers? The Dodgers won their back-to-back World Series, but they spent$330 million and they didn't make their money back. Fuck off. This is the deal. Number one, and obviously you guys know I've played into this. I think that the economics of whatever it is have become such a part of what it is that we do. When people started reporting, do you remember when Striptease came out? One of the biggest stories about Striptease was how much money she got paid to do the movie. They gave her like$12 million or something like that.

57:19I remember when Selena came out, it was like the first Latina actress to make a million dollars. That started us talking about the salaries of the actors and what it meant to be a$20 million actor. Started us on... Will Smith and this movie.

57:33Sean Fennessey:I think Will Smith and Jim Carrey were a big part of that in the 90s. And then you also had movies like Bonfire of the Vanities and Waterworld that were like, the budgets were constant. But it also was

57:41Bill Simmons:the whole infrastructure of people writing and reporting this for the first time in a real way. They pre-did this with Titanic. The Titanic was a very troubled production. We talked about that in the pod. A lot of money. Everyone thought it was going to be a bust. But that has evolved into this entire section of discussing movies that is about how profitable the movies are and obviously people are listening and they know I've talked about this stuff based upon the talent and the budget and all of that stuff. Well, the thing

58:09Sean Fennessey:that you hear now, you hear maybe not normal people but just general movie fans say things like, well, when you factor in the marketing, it's actually 70 million more and it's like, you don't have to know that. Like, that's not important for you to know as a movie fan. I talk about box office all the time on the pods. I do think it is important because it tends to dictate what kinds of movies get made. So it's valuable to kind of understand why movies are working and not working. But the race to be like, this movie failed after six weeks, I always find to be really, really strange. No matter who's making it.

58:36Bill Simmons:It doesn't acknowledge the infrastructure we have now for movies where some people just wait till they're on Amazon or wherever. And there's no visibility into VOD. Or they want to buy a Blu-ray or whatever. But for variety or for whatever publication is doing it, they're doing it because it incites people. It stokes rage, yeah. It stokes rage. It incites people. Well, the sports media is no different. It's all the same shit. It's like, what can get a headline and traffic and people to read this? The thing about the budgets for these teams, they're different because of just the amount of joy that people get from the team itself.

59:10There's always going to be a conversation, particularly in baseball, about how much the roster's costing all of that stuff like that. But if a movie is a dud and it costs$300 million or$250 million like one of these Marvel movies, there's just a different experience that people have. But why do people care?

59:27Bill Simmons:Like, I care in sports when the Red Sox get, you know, some pitcher for$180 million and the guy sucks. And it's like, well, that affects me because we only had like four big money spots to spend and we fucked this one up. I'm mad.

59:41Sean Fennessey:Okay, I have a question.

59:42Bill Simmons:I don't care if Paul Thomas Anderson spent$100 million on a movie that we all liked.

59:48Sean Fennessey:I know you're mad, but to me, that was the same thing as Kugler. I felt exactly the same about both of those experiences. The Dodgers thing I wanted to ask you about, though, is the one thing with this Dodgers title is that this, I could be wrong about this, but I think this is the first World Series champion in which the 10 best players on the team were bought. Yeah. They did home grow Will Smith and Max Muncy, but every star on that team is a free agent or they traded for him. Now, that obviously reveals that the Dodgers are willing to spend on other teams or not, but does it, in sports, does it change your mind at all?

1:00:22Bill Simmons:This changed in 92 and 93 with the Blue Jays, ironically. when they got Joe Carter and Jack Morris, and they went and got the best guys from, homegrown guys from other teams, and we were all pissed off. I was pissed off. It's like, well, they didn't do this fair. But now it's like, that's just 30 years of baseball. I am chronically and annoyingly in favor of the little guy in all things, like, to the great annoyance of a bunch of people. I get it. The same reason why I, I guess, I criticize the big budgets in the movies when the movies aren't profitable, It's because I'm always thinking about smaller creators.

1:00:56But I will admit this. I will admit this. And at a specific time, at the time we're in right now, where there are so few things that we can actually agree on in terms of things that are good, good art. When you get good art, it shouldn't really matter how much it costs. Because at this point, there is just, I don't know if people are paying attention to it. There are a lot of great movies that come out. There are a lot of great records that come out. There are a lot of great albums that come out. But the things that really, to me, seem like truly inspired art, that people are making it and putting their all into it and all of that stuff, it just kind of seems like there's not as much of that that I can connect to as I used to.

1:01:40And I'm not saying that it's necessarily true that people aren't making those things. I'm saying that there is something to be said. And I've thought about this after some of the conversations that we've had about one battle after another. after everybody on set not having to worry about anything other than just cooking about everybody on set yeah just being able to folk not having to worry about when the money going to run out or like when you're going to do this or how you're going to pay just everybody just worried about there is something to be said for that and i think that concentrating too much on the financials kind of gets us away from it because that was not a conversation i'm assuming when snake eyes came out nobody was like was this profitable in the same way babylon which made like 70 million dollars and cost probably similar rents to Snake Guy.

1:02:23That was the only thing. Oh, this movie lost so much money. It flopped.

1:02:26Bill Simmons:Yes. You know what's interesting though? In movies, this has always been a conversation and in sports, it hasn't. Like, I remember when I was a kid inside, I think it was inside sports, they ran an article, a cover story about the first million dollar athlete, Nolan Ryan. And it was like the cover. And it was like, these guys now make a million dollars. And I remember being a kid, like, whoa, that's a lot of money. But it didn't make me think differently of the athletes. No. But in movies, talking about whether something costs too much, you go back to like Cleopatra and that era. Yeah. The Godfather.

1:03:00Bill Simmons:Did this cost too much? Did they make a mistake? Is this going to bankrupt the studio? This has kind of been the lingo for, I don't know, 70 years?

1:03:08Sean Fennessey:Well, the trades are predicated on driving interest, but with a winners and losers mentality. And creating panic.

1:03:13Bill Simmons:It's just an angle to talk, to criticize something. And to create panic for, oh, they could be done if this doesn't work.

1:03:19Sean Fennessey:we're getting we're treading in a dangerous like i'm not attacking your territory but i do think that the era of fandom did create a kind of like us versus them mentality amongst people mostly online nope in real life people aren't like i like this and i don't like this but people are very eager to rush to tell like people love to tell me that one battle after another is a flop because they know that it's my favorite director my favorite movie of the year and they want me to They want me to feel bad that it didn't make money. And that is a like, the thing that I like is more important and better than the thing that you like, which is a kind of insidious thing that has happened in culture over time.

1:03:54That has to do with the nerds. And it's just a fact because I'll just be completely transparent. If you grew up, I'll speak for me. I'll speak for the nerd in me. If you grew up, and I know that we have a similar upbringing as far as it's concerned. if you grew up and you collected over 3 500 comic books right and you read you read them all the time and constantly constantly constantly over and over again that was something that was supposed to be niche and something no matter how much people love superman was something supposed to be niche was something supposed to be weird whatever the comic book revolution the star wars ip revolution all of that stuff was a validation of everything that you did in your youth and you being able to do that stuff, do that and talk about it and having that go mainstream.

1:04:45I remember I used to be on TMZ being like, you guys would call us nerds and be like, there's no nerds. The movie made$2 billion. We won. Right? And those movies exist. They have to have gigantic budgets. They have to have huge budgets, but they are only validated. Nobody cares about how good Robert Downey Jr. was in Avengers Endgame. Those movies are only validated if they make money. So the minute that they don't make money, doesn't matter what. the minute that they don't make money, people shoot at them. People shoot at them. They go, all right, well, your big special thing that you love or whatever, it flopped.

1:05:19Nobody cares. Nobody cares just like they never cared. And then you just go, okay, well, the thing that you love, it flopped. Nobody cares. What's the difference? And if the difference is just the quality of the art, that's always subjective. That is legitimately, there are very few movies that we can all agree. So that's always subjective. And that comes back to taste, which taste comes back to hierarchy, which opinions are actually important enough to be deemed important, which opinions are not important, which movies matter, which movies don't. That's a tale as old as time when you're talking about art.

1:05:56We have that same, that's a Jay-Z versus Talib Kweli conversation. You know what I mean? So like all of that stuff.

1:06:03Bill Simmons:But how does that explain why anyone would care if Sinners or one bad after another spent$25 million more than they should have? Who fucking cares? That's the part I don't get. The response to the Sinners thing was the fact that at least initially, it seemed as if those two movies were treated in different ways. Sinners had a gigantic Open and the Variety headline Or at least what made it to Twitter Was this movie opened Big but It's got a long way to go to become Profitable It was one news piece though It was almost like the Lamar Jackson How one person said he should be a receiver And then that just became Everybody said he should be a receiver It's like nah it was one idiot But you do understand though that a movie that is That connected and that undergirded by a celebration of black culture variety which is by far to me at least the most relevant trade taking that spin on a movie that opened big it actually opened it opened big that for i'll just be honest with for for a black man you're good but you're not quite good enough i'll just say okay fuck you guys bill the answer to your one battle thing is why are people upset as they're not.

1:07:22No one gives a shit. These are like .001 % of people online who are not real people are like stoking these flames that don't know. Every normal person you'd see on the street would be like, I don't even think about movie budgets. How much did it cost? What does that even mean? I liked the movie.

1:07:36Sean Fennessey:It's also just a context-free like recency bias in terms of reflection on what a movie means. One Battle and Sinners are made by the same studio. Like the Prophets of Sinners benefits the ability to make more movies like Sinners and One Battle of the Another. The second or third biggest movie of the year is Minecraft, which was also made by Warner Brothers. You don't make Minecraft to make an art film. You make Minecraft to make money so that you can take chances on other films. That is the story of Hollywood. That is what made Hollywood Studios great is that they had this fine grain balance between, oh, you got to make a wrestling picture because people like Wallace Beery movies in the 1930s.

1:08:13Sean Fennessey:They're going to show up. That's going to guarantee X number of dollars. So then we can take a chance on something a little bit more audacious with an artist who we think is really interesting. That is a 100-year-old story. So if on Monday morning, when you're looking at the box office returns, you're like, man, this sucks. One battle, like it costs$140, and it's only going to make$207. Gosh, this could have been way better because you got to factor in the marketing. It's really disappointing. But that discounts the fact that it exists within a system in a studio, and that system exists around all these other studios and all these other companies that are thriving right now.

1:08:44Sean Fennessey:So it's just, it's kind of an incoherent fight that I personally am having, every other day. And I'm a little exhausted about, but I also feel complicit in because it just drives the discussion. You know, it really does keep people interested in this stuff in an ugly way.

1:08:58Bill Simmons:The only time I've ever cared is when the studios would spend money on two. This is probably a more 2000s, early 2010s thing. They'd have the money to really splurge on like three things. And they're always the wrong three things. And then if they did well, I would monitor that. I'd be like, oh, fuck, we're going to get more of this shit. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, oh man, that worked. God damn it. So, last thing I'll say about this is, obviously you guys know I bring a ton of baggage and bias into this, right? Because - You? Oh, come on, man. Why? Baggage and bias. That's going to be the next Van podcast.

1:09:35Bill Simmons:Baggage and bias week on the Rewatchable? Baggage and bias for Van Nathan. I bring a ton of baggage and bias into this. Hey, everybody. Welcome to baggage and bias. It's facts. And I own that because when they are choosing to overspend on these movies, they never do it with black creators, right? So there's a scratching and a clawing. Yeah. And it doesn't matter how good you are, what you've made. It's just, there is a, you know, some of that's demographic. Some of that's like, you know, what does it mean to have a four quadrant movie and all of that stuff like that? So what I think is, if we get back to just making cool movies.

1:10:13We're kind of back to that. Maybe. I was thinking a little bit about - 25 is a year. If we get back to just making cool movies, I'm cool with a truce, but I am completely unconvinced that in any type of way, we're going to see a situation where black art and art made by people that don't run the town and sit in all of this stuff is going to be able to get$150 million and go out and not be profitable.

1:10:45Sean Fennessey:I think you can point to Sinners and at least say that's something. That that is a movie that nothing has really happened like that ever before. But the one thing I was thinking of while watching Snake Eyes was MBJ is kind of at a similar place in his career that Nick Cage was in. He's like in his late 30s. He's kind of done every kind of movie. He's done serious drama. He's done IP spectacle. Sports movie. He's been at the center of a sports movie. You know, he really…

1:11:09Bill Simmons:Legal trial movie.

1:11:10Sean Fennessey:Yeah, he's been in the military movie. like he's he really has touched all of the genres he's tried comedy bad rom-com did that people don't even fucking remember that movie did like we all agreed

1:11:22Bill Simmons:not to talk about it yeah people what was your point with him though

1:11:27Sean Fennessey:um just that a movie like sinners is a movie that kind of like elevates you out of I'm a good star into I'm potentially going into a like forever mode like there's gonna be an awards push for him now the same way that cage got his awards push and that Like, let him, he could make pretty much any movie he wanted for seven years in Hollywood after leaving Las Vegas. And his decision was, I want to make action spectacle. But you can go in another direction. You wouldn't have the same clout that you had in the 90s. But it's interesting, like, these guys, the decisions that they make at this point in their career also dictate the future of Hollywood.

1:12:03Sean Fennessey:Like, Leo has spent 25 years being like, fuck it, I really like Scorsese. I'm going to get as many Scorsese movies made as I possibly can through the absolute center of my career. That has been his primary focus. And raise money to make the movies, even. That's the whole story of Wolf of Wall Street. Him going out and raising the money to get that movie made so that Scorsese could direct it. So it is also incumbent on the stars who are at their center of movies to use their power to get cool stuff made and not just be cynical and not just make the same old boring action movie where they reach their quote, you know, like, and it's like, oh, well, I'll do it for Netflix, but I won't do it for Paramount because Netflix will pay my quote and Paramount won't.

1:12:40Sean Fennessey:You know, like, they really, you have to sacrifice something to get that thing no matter whether you're white or black or whatever in Hollywood. Yeah, I mean, look, like, you're not wrong. For me, I just look at there being such a contagion inside of the system of that, right? And there isn't, I mean, we could talk about Michael B. Jordan. He's not Leonardo DiCaprio, right? I mean, Leonardo DiCaprio at one point was the star of the biggest movie of all time, right? There are things that factor into this that are different. One thing I do know is this, is that knowing as many people in this town as I do.

1:13:14Oh, I like that, in this town. It's true. Wow. That are looking to create, all they want is story. There's nothing else. There's no, for the majority of these people, there's no agenda. There's no nothing. They have things that are burning inside of them, and they want to be able to tell these stories. And they want to tell them. Sometimes they're going to be easy to understand. Sometimes they're going to be incoherent. Sometimes they're going to be great. Sometimes they're going to be bad. Sometimes everybody just wants to get their shit out. And all of these other conversations are wrapped into age-old schisms that have existed in America since time immemorial.

1:13:49But we just want to watch and make movies. And that, to me, sometimes we talk about a lot of other things, but we just want people to be able to make movies and watch movies and all of that shit. How are you grappling with the fact that perhaps the decline of the superhero movie might be the thing that actually saves original storytelling? I think everybody. I mean... Is that a trade-off that you're willing to take? Certainly. I think everyone... It doesn't matter what type of movie is being made. The action star that we talked about before, Van Damme, Schwarzenegger, all of those guys, they got market corrected.

1:14:25Bill Simmons:Seagal. Seagal. Those guys got market corrected. Stallone. They did. They got market corrected. their genre their movie making they were superheroes they were superheroes their movies didn't last forever so like we'll see what is next and we'll see what happens next I'm good with it I think it comes down to the same thing as always writers and directors the thing I hear we always talk about who's the next movie star and do we need more movie stars and obviously we do and it's always nice to have them but if you have the ideas and you have somebody who knows how to make it you can you can win 12 games with Alex Smith, basically, to use a Kansas City Chiefs analogy.

1:15:06Sean Fennessey:That is the, in this town, the thing that I hear the most is, who's the filmmaker? Is there a filmmaker who can bring to a story this sense of event? That's the thing that everybody is looking for, is how do you eventize something that in 1998 maybe didn't necessarily need to be communicated like that? But if you look at what the major studios are doing now, it's like Warner Brothers putting their arms around Kugler and PTA and Zach Kregor this year. If you look at Universal putting their arms around Daniel, Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, Jordan Peele, like these are strategies happening inside the studios where they're like, you know, Netflix is going all out for Greta Gerwig, for Narnia.

1:15:48Sean Fennessey:Like that is the move. That's the, and the problem is the thing that you're describing, which is that the studios don't develop the talent like they did in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties. They don't let people take shots the same way. you've got to make it for yourself. And then if you get lucky, you get noticed. And then you get plunged into the deep end. Right. Even those guys we're talking about, though, those guys had to break the system. Like, these filmmakers, once again, not a new phenomenon. When you talk about, it doesn't seem like it now, but Lucas, Spielberg, De Palma, all of these guys, like, even the generation of actors that came before them, like Hoffman, Nicholson, all of those guys, they had to break a system.

1:16:28Sean Fennessey:Yeah, they all functionally worked in independent cinema. Right. They had to break a system. And we got to a point to where a lot of this stuff got, there needs to be, if not a breaking of it, but certainly a resetting of it.

1:16:40Bill Simmons:But people romanticize the 70s, and the 70s were bonkers. If you look at how they made movies back then, then the 80s were basically all cocaine. But the 70s were just like, yeah, here's money. Just like the, I mean, how many books do we have about all the crazy shit that they just let people do. Like, that's not coming back. The 80s aren't coming back. The 90s are probably the closest to where we need to be. How do you mean? What do you mean? Just like, just letting people, letting young filmmakers or letting good filmmakers, giving them real money to make what they want to make. Well, then it's over.

1:17:12Bill Simmons:I think it's coming back. I really do. I think we're closer than we were. It's just smaller. But what I'm saying is, if there is no, like, that would be like taking away high school baseball. if there is if there's no appetite for letting smaller less established filmmakers get reps work out story and do all of that that has to exist

1:17:33Sean Fennessey:there's a there's an interesting thing happening next year at the movies there's this movie A24 is putting this movie out called The Back Rooms I haven't seen it I can't remember the filmmaker's name but he made these YouTube videos that are sort of like creepypastas they're like it's like a horror movie idea that he made on YouTube and based on this idea he was drafted by the studio to adapt what he made on YouTube into a feature film. The film's got real stars in it. He's 20 years old. And it is like, it is the thing we're talking about. It's a studio trying to identify somebody really early on, giving them a shot.

1:18:09Sean Fennessey:Kane Parsons. Kane Parsons, that's his name. I read about this. I don't know if it's going to be good or not, but that's what Corb was talking about in his speech. The back rooms is not going to cost probably more than$5 million. dollars take more bats let's even if it's bad even if it's worth trying because if you find if you did find one based off of his youtube videos then that's an annuity that's going to pay off forever if you're a studio if you sign that person up like you're if you're trying to find the next christopher nolan you got to give them chances to try to make their movie right i think the 90s were the last time where this actually happened though and there are a bunch of reasons for that

1:18:46Bill Simmons:but I also feel like Kevin Smith like yeah and it was pre-internet and I wonder sometimes does the internet in some ways make it less likely for somebody to just have an imagination to come up with a story because they have easier things you're saying the talent isn't there no I just worry sometimes that there's so many distractions you think about when people make art a lot of times it happens because they're bored or they have nothing else to do and it's like I guess I'll just write this chapter of this book I was thinking about. Or I guess I'll try to make this song. Or I guess I'll try to flush out this movie idea versus like, I'll go on Instagram.

1:19:23Bill Simmons:I sound like the old guy, but I do really worry about that. I think that's real. I don't think I've ever disagreed with one statement more. Let's hear it. But you don't have kids though. I do. I watch how my kids spend their time versus how I spend my time. I think the idea of making a movie feels so arduous and long. And now you can just get famous on Instagram. You can make smaller jokes. There's shortcuts everywhere. There's sketches on TikTok. There's other ways to get your creativity out. I'm not saying that kids are not preoccupied with other things right now. Yeah. Two things. One, the idea that people created out of boredom before, to me, just skips over the fact that, like, I don't think that Quentin Tarantino was bored.

1:20:03I think Quentin Tarantino was -

1:20:05Bill Simmons:You're misunderstanding bored. But what else was there for him to do? He couldn't, there was no TikTok. No, no, no, no, no. He was obsessed. But I'm saying there was - He was - The reason you became obsessed is because you had less to do. And the only thing you could do was make a movie. Now there's like a thousand other things you could make using digital tools. That doesn't necessarily mean a feature film. But I get everything that you guys are saying. I'm not at all discounting. Hasn't Tarantino himself said if he were alive now, he's like, I would have never made it as a director. He said he would not have been a filmmaker.

1:20:35That's fine. I'm telling you right now. That's concerning. I'm telling you, that's fine. I'm telling you right now, right now. I'm not even, I'm in no way conjecturing this. Right now, there are thousands, if not millions of people that want to get their movies made. And like, they want to get their movies made. And they don't want to get their movies made because they're bored. They want to get their movies made because...

1:20:59Bill Simmons:You can't weaponize the word bored. I'm telling you, like, people became passionate about stuff because they had less options for what to do every day. I think you're both right.

1:21:08Sean Fennessey:I mean, I think the thing is that there are still people that have always existed who have an artistic idea burning inside of them. And they're obsessed with the medium that they're supposed to make it for. Like, I have a couple of friends who are younger filmmakers. A couple of people I've interviewed on the show and become friendly with over the years who are in their 20s. Who I'm like, this person is just born to do it. This is all they've ever cared about. And it doesn't matter that they're Gen Z. Like, they love movies. They worship movies. They have something to say. But there are less than there were.

1:21:36Sean Fennessey:because there is more around that you can put that energy into.

1:21:41Bill Simmons:Yes. Yeah, maybe it's more like distractions than being bored. It's just, I don't know. I wrote a book once because it was like, all right, what am I going to do late at night? I'll just do this.

1:21:53Sean Fennessey:I think video games are an amazing, you know, kind of rejoinder to this. Like, because the amount of time you can spend just playing video games and going into those worlds. That doesn't mean that people weren't throwing themselves into cinephilia and seeing every movie ever and then still going out and making movies.

1:22:06Bill Simmons:Well, so that's a bonus. Like, you can watch so many more things now. That's your passion. You can just be like, I'm going to watch three movies, four movies today. You know what I think is tainting my opinion of this? Is like... Well, you know a lot of people that are trying to get shit made. Well, I've produced some movies. But that's over there, though. That's a separate topic. Well, no, it's not. Think about this when you're in your car. But when you're in your car driving and you're at a stoplight, what do you do? Look at your phone. Right Yeah What do you do when you shower? You listen to a podcast The Godfather isn't available Like I still watch But I'm saying I still watch a shit ton of movies But I think people are distracted Way more than they used to be And back in the day Like your imagination would run rampant Because you didn't really have that much else to do At a stoplight you just thought about weird shit Partially I think that's right You guys it could be I'm telling you right now Like there's a guy and I'm so weird that I haven't emailed him back.

1:23:07So maybe there's a guy that emails me every single day, every day.

1:23:11Sean Fennessey:And now you're just encouraging it. No, I'm going to eventually get back to him. I got to watch the movie. He emails me every day about the movie he made. And every email is different. Every email is like, this is a film that we came together and made in Toronto. And it's about this. And let me tell you this. Then the email on top of the email is van. They're like, I know I've, I've, I worked as a radio DJ. I know so few of these emails get through, and I've read every single one. Not to crowd you out, but this dude also emails me. Does he? Yeah. Okay, but that's not about crowding me out. That just shows to me, that just shows me how important it is that his thing gets seen.

1:23:54And I get that people are creating all types of things. I get that they are. but guys like people out here are desperate to get their stories told

1:24:04Bill Simmons:that's no different than 1990 I'm telling my story every time I get

1:24:08Sean Fennessey:a stack of blu-rays from the same director out and put them in chronological order and take a photo of them and put them on Instagram that's me making art

1:24:19I feel like Tarantino saying that if I were alive now no way I would have been a director is like the beginning and end of the argument I love him

1:24:27Sean Fennessey:but he's a contrarian I think that's also horseshit. He's trying to fuck. I think he's trying to fuck. I actually think about

1:24:32Bill Simmons:would I have written sports comms if I grew up 40 years later the way people grow up now.

1:24:37Sean Fennessey:You'd be making awesome YouTube videos.

1:24:38Bill Simmons:I think it would have been completely different, right? The most amazing... I would have done something but I don't know if it would have been the same thing and I definitely wouldn't have read all the books I read.

1:24:45Sean Fennessey:But what you did about Game 5 on your pod if you were not who you are now you would have found a way to do it in a different venue in that way because that's the most consumable way. That's the other thing is that it's about wanting to be seen, like wanting your stuff to be seen. By the way, people consume stuff now. Everybody wants to be understood now and everyone feels like they can be understood because we have this, right? It's harder to make a movie. It takes a year, five years. It takes a million dollars. late and night, kills your brain. I will tell you this. It's harder to make a movie, but there's also no substitute for it.

1:25:15Oh, I agree with you. You know I agree with that. And so it's definitely harder. It's definitely harder to make a film. There's also no substitute for it. There is some kid... As much as we're talking about, we're leaving out one portion of it, which is inspiration. There is somebody that went and they watched Sinners and they sat down. Right. And they were, however old they were, and they saw the medium that was on the screen telling a specific story in a way that you can only tell it up there. As much as you would want to do it, the only way you can do it is if you take the cinematography, the action, the direction, the scope, all of that.

1:25:58Ten million people watch Ryan Coogler talk about the way you should watch and shoot the movie. There is an interest for the art of storytelling, the relationship that you have between you and the screen, that to me, I see it all the time. Like all the time. Like people, like shorts, all of that stuff, all the time. I think it's still very, very valuable. And I just hope that there's an ecosystem.

1:26:24Bill Simmons:We agree with you. I know. What I'm saying is I hope that there's an ecosystem that nurtures that for the next group of people. But then you got to remember the part that Ryan Cougar didn't just fall out of bed and make sinners. Like that's like a 15-year journey.

1:26:38Sean Fennessey:Exactly.

1:26:38Bill Simmons:That includes Fruitvale Station and somebody letting him do that and him fighting to make it. My entire point is you do not get to Sinners unless there is Fruitvale Station. When I went to the L.A. screening of Sinners, Ryan Coogler talked about why Omar Benson Miller is in the movie. Omar Benson Miller is in the movie because Ryan Coogler went to a screening when he was still a film student of Miracle at St. Anna. And he saw Omar Benson Miller in Miracle at St. Anna. and after that congratulated him and said one day we're going to do a movie together and then years and years after he's gotten the opportunity to make his movie, taken that opportunity and made the most out of it, he goes back and he cast that guy that was in that thing that he liked like almost a decade before that journey is how you get sinners but the problem is Kugler is one of the most talented filmmakers we had in the last 20 years They all can't be good.

1:27:41Bill Simmons:No, but I mean, he's like, that's like saying, why can't we have another Shea Gildress Alexander? It's like, I think people are always going to watch movies and be inspired and say, I want to make a movie. That's always been there. Always been there. It's just a little bit easier now, I feel like, to try for three years and then go, I'm just going to start a YouTube channel instead. I'm going to start a podcast. What if I go the TikTok route? What if I express myself in a different way? This whole conversation is blowing my mind. Of course, Shea Gildress, you don't wake up to be Shea Gilliger's Alexander, right?

1:28:10Sean Fennessey:Yeah, but he worked his ass off. He had to pick the basketball up. Somebody had to nurture it. Somebody had to give him the opportunity to play. There had to be a game for him to play. There had to be a team that was like, hey, we'll take you and you will play. I'll tell you something else about him. That actually makes my point. He is Canadian. 15, 20 years ago. He is? He is. I don't know if you guys know this. 15, 20 years ago, him being Canadian would have meant that there was not enough basketball culture where he was for him to, number one, see a game that he loved, participate in a game that he loved, and have the infrastructure that he needed to work to get to 10 ,000 hours to get great at the game that he loved.

1:28:56so the fact that he as a international player or wimby or whomever else all of these guys are it shows that that sport is still evolving where people get i guess where we disagree is i think

1:29:07Bill Simmons:this infrastructure has been here the whole time i don't think i mean we've had since sundance and there's been the film school boom happened in the 90s this has been 35 years of people kind of knowing i don't even think there's that much disagreement going on there i would that's what

1:29:21Sean Fennessey:i was going to say is we're not actually arguing i do think what's interesting about it though is that we're talking on the Monday after the lowest box office performance weekend since the 90s. And one of the reasons why that happened is because Friday was Halloween, which is unusual, and the studios were afraid to release a new movie on Halloween. So there were no new releases over the weekend. And they were banking on the Colleen Hoover adaptation having a good carryover from the previous weekend. And it's something that's been happening a lot, obviously, in part because there were strikes a couple years ago, but also just this past year, there are just weekends where no movies come out.

1:29:58Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. You know why elite point guards make everyone better? It isn't just the no-look times. It's because they know everything. Who's hot? Who's tired? What the defense is doing? Which teammate needs a basket? Most businesses don't have that. Sales run one play. Marketing runs another. Nobody told service. The game plan has now changed. HubSpot gives you that point guard vision, one platform, full customer context. And that context is everything you need to win. Visit HubSpot.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. We've seen some legendary athletes don the number four jersey.

1:30:41Bill Simmons:Now I can't name names, but you guys know who I'm talking about. In fact, If you look at my studio, there's a framed picture of one of my favorite number fours. He played hockey. Anyway, you know what else is game changing for? PayPal Pay-in-4. No fees, no interest, no impact on your credit score. It's just the flexibility to pay the way that works for you. And it's available at millions of online stores. Pay-in-4 with PayPal. Subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com slash payinfor. PayPal Inc. NMLS 910 457 Well that goes to the like the there are these big directors that these studios are rallying around but then everything else there's like 10 spike weekends each year where it's like the Nolan weekend the Spielberg weekend the Kugler weekend and then everything in between is just dead

1:31:31Sean Fennessey:This has been my my big point in the last five years it's just that the eventization is not going anywhere movies like that will continue to happen Kuglers will come up through the system The floor is falling out the like Like the Andrew Davis, the guy who's like, God damn, every Andrew Davis movie is really good. But you never knew Andrew Davis's name. He made the fucking Fugitive. He made Under Siege. He made The Package. Every time you watch an Andrew Davis movie or like Out for Justice, like this movie's gonna be good. I fuck with it. But he wasn't famous. Like that is the thing specifically that is going to me.

1:32:03What was the guy that made the Dallas connection? You guys never saw that. Anyway. But I used to like Andrew, whatever. I used to like his movies too. um but uh this is what i'll say about this you're right that's why my thing is intentionality always is intentionality not whether or not you're gonna get a director it's like i always used to tell celebrities that would be mad that they were getting their asses kicked by tmz they would be like van i don't have any allies in the office i'll be like why don't you make one like if you want an ally in the office, if you want somebody in the office that cares about your story, why don't you make one?

1:32:44Why don't you be intentional about what it is that you want to exist? And if you want an ecosystem for up-and-coming movie makers that are going to undergird, I keep using that word, the next generation of films, why don't you be intentional about it? Now, I will say this. I think that other artists do this. I do. I think that other artists reach back and put people on all the time be intentional about the fact that there's talent to be found and cultivated and developed over the course and that these stories these stories that are about the changing landscape of society that you know what i would want to watch i want to watch the movie about the kid that's so bored that he starts making tiktoks and i want to see these stories i care about their

1:33:29Sean Fennessey:there's a great movie came out last year called dd by this guy sean wong and he's he was a kid who was in like 8th grade trying to make friends and a little detached growing up in I want to say Central California I think it's the Bay in the Bay Sacramento maybe even and Fremont Fremont yeah and YouTube is just getting going and he starts basically like trying to make friends by making skate videos having his own YouTube account that have like pranks on it trying to find his way and it's a it's a it's a nostalgic movie but like I'm sure I know how we've talked about it before like I know that that is a movie that resonates with people because it's the actual experience that you're describing.

1:34:11Sean Fennessey:And that's like, Sean came out of the Sundance system and he developed his skills. I think he worked at Google for a minute and then developed his skills over time to figure out how to become a better, better filmmaker. To me, that guy, that filmmaker specifically is somebody whose studio should be like, let me put my arms around you. Your next movie is going to get$25 million. Make it good. We're going to vet the script heavily. The executives are going to be hard on you, but we're going to make this movie good together. And then your next movie, if it does well, is going to get$75 million. And we're going to keep growing together.

1:34:39Sean Fennessey:That, to me, is the essence of the system because it costs so much money to make movies that are at scale. If you want to make independent films, that's a different story. Raising money yourself, being strategic, you know all about that world. But the thing that I like and the thing that I'm talking about every week is getting these kinds of movies in front of as many people as possible. Make a movie that can play on 3 ,500 screens. I really value that Snake Eyes is an example of that But getting it in front of as many people as possible Means it should be on Netflix Well that is One battle after another There can be both There can be streaming services making movies And there can be studios putting movies in movie theaters I think that there is no doubt about the fact That we are living in An ecosystem where There are movies that are just going to be For streaming There are films that Like, I am not the best person.

1:35:32I went and saw everything. Saw all the movies. It was the only place you could see them. Saw all the movies. The DVDs came out in the 2000s, and they were going crazy. So there were certain movies that I saw, and I never experienced them on the big screen. But as soon as them bitches came out, and they were playing on the big screen, I was like, guess what? Suicide Kings? Big screen? I'm going to see it. All right? So I get that, and I understand that that passion for the actual experience of going to—I know that that's different. There are movies for streaming, movies for all of this. I see it.

1:36:04There's a Tubi-type movie. I watch these movies all the time. I watch these Tubi movies that are set in New Orleans. I just want to see what people are talking about and what they're trying to say. I watch these movies all the time, right? I hope that the person that you're talking about is allowed to fail a couple of times. I hope that they're allowed to take chances on films that got decent budgets and that those movies came out and people didn't understand them. People didn't fuck with them and they're able to fail. Cooler is batting a thousand. That is difficult. That is tough. I just hope that some of these people that have this artistic sensibility, like Spike.

1:36:46Some of Spike's movies, at the beginning, Spike was on a run. But then Spike would take chances and he would make films that weren't for everyone. But I feel like we're more enriched if there is a gigantic gumbo of creators and people that are allowed to create and have their say. That has to be nurtured intentionally. You have to want more people to have the opportunity to get their stories out. And you have to, I mean... I don't know. I just don't buy it.

1:37:15Bill Simmons:I just don't. I think it's like gobbledygook. Like, oh yeah, we got to have everybody tell stories. Like telling stories is hard. Putting the time in day after day to make something good, to like learn how to be good at something. I don't think, I think some people want to take the shortcuts. They don't understand what kind of process it is. I get it. I think it's just really hard to make good shit. It's not as easy as I want to make a movie. Oh, here's my movie. No, no, no, no. Like the whole thing is like this, this is a fucking process. It takes years and years and years and years to become even decent at something.

1:37:48Bill Simmons:And I really wonder sometimes if people realize that. That's the number one question I get asked all the time. How do I do this? How do I do this? And it's like, all right, you want to be a writer. What are your favorite books? Well, what do you mean? What are your favorite books? What book have you read the most? What do you mean read the most? Like read a lot of times? Yeah. Have you read a book like 20 times and studied every page from it? But I really think sometimes that people want to just get to the end without remembering. There's a whole journey to get to the end. But do you understand that that's not what I'm talking about?

1:38:18Bill Simmons:No, I know. But I'm telling you that's where I'm coming from with like being bored, the shortcuts, the whole thing. It's like this is really hard. Right. And I wonder sometimes if people realize that.

1:38:28Sean Fennessey:I was thinking about this a little bit when you were talking about coaching people up in the TMZ office. Because the other thing is like you guys have both worked really hard, but you're also incredibly talented and charismatic. and there's also just like some people just got it. You know, there is a just got it factor to some of this. Right. That like sometimes the person who just got it isn't nurtured or taken care of or doesn't have an opportunity. There's no denying that. But sometimes some people just walk in and they do have it. And if they work hard enough at it, then they can make it happen.

1:38:58Bill Simmons:But Van's a good example of this though. You got all these reps for years. Yeah. Right? Right. Did those reps make you better? Certainly. but that was an unconventional path right for years and years you just have to come up on the fly and now cnn figure out how to interact with yeah now you're on cnn um figure out how to interact with people you had to figure out what worked that didn't work you could have a trial and error situation where if something didn't work it wasn't the biggest deal in the world because the platform you know it was a little more forgiving and over a while you forgot to you figured out like oh this is my style this is how to express myself oh i'm getting better at this i have confidence here but that's the whole thing like Craig and those guys have been doing the fantasy show how many years have you been doing it?

1:39:41Bill Simmons:Five like if you went back and listened to the first year of the show would you be fired up to listen to it? You'd be like oh my god we sucked at this why were we so bad at this? Like this is the whole thing it's a fucking process So there's a talent component I'm not disagreeing with that I think about when you talk about like me at TMZ I wrote my way on to the TMZ tour Tiffany Drucker shout out to her she was a production coordinator at TMZ they were looking for tour guides I send in my resume but the cover sheet of my resume I wrote something funny right and when she got it she's like I had to interview you even though we'd stopped because of what was on there right then I get on there and I get on the tour bus and I mean everybody else would do the tour me and Kalika would run the tour after the tour bus we would get in the car and run the tour bus around town like in the car we would drive and run the tour bus around town and I would stop and do my whole thing.

1:40:36So when Harvey came on to take the tour, he saw it and went, hey, why don't you come into the studio and do it? And then boom, it kind of starts. I start there in April. By June, I was on TV every day.

1:40:52I'm not saying that I'm not naturally charismatic, unbelievably handsome and tall and beautiful.

1:40:56Sean Fennessey:You didn't say any of those things. I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is, though, is that there was an opportunity given to me. and there was an opportunity given to me by people who were like, oh, interesting, new, different. And then the X factor was the fact that every time I see an opportunity or a chance, I go, what the fuck do I have to do? That is a different thing. However, in this, where there are millions of dollars at play, there is sometimes some people that need to be able to look and look at somebody and see people and go, huh, there's something there. What can we get out of it?

1:41:33Talent capitalization. I don't understand how we're having this conversation.

1:41:37Bill Simmons:You've seen these movie studios. None of them have the wherewithal to do that. That's like a fantasy world. I don't think that's true. I don't think they're good enough to figure that out. You know what's funny? I just don't. I'm not about to start glazing. That's just really hard to me. Yeah, I don't think that's crazy. I found PTA. He's 19. But PTA is like a prodigy. That's very difficult. PTA was making elaborate home movies when he was 15. You're just not going to become PTA. I'm not, it's not about being PTA because there's only going to, it doesn't matter if there's only going to be one PTA or two PTAs per generation.

1:42:11There are a lot of films out there that are better than the people who actually created their films. There are a lot of films out there that are the result of a certain dedication to storytelling, a sincerity. There are people that made the story of their life and couldn't make the story of anything else, right? There are all kinds of situations out there where that exists. Rap phenomenon. Your first album is your best. Why? Because it's all in the - Your whole life story. It's your whole life story. What I am saying is there is a portion of this that in order to, whatever it is that we're talking about, whatever it is that we're talking about, that if you want the next great anything, you have to invest into it.

1:42:54The NBA right now is in Africa, and they're investing money into Africa. And what you are seeing is a return on that investment. It's a return on talent that was overlooked. You can almost do this in any sport. If it is the Dominican Republican in baseball, right? You see a bunch of people who have a passion for something. They're using milk cartons as gloves. What if you gave them a real glove? What if you gave them a real bat? What if you took somebody that was 13, allegedly, and then you brought them to the Dodgers training facility and you gave them what they need? After a certain point, would you get an all-star out of it?

1:43:31Not everybody will be an all-star, hence the movie Sugar. Great movie. Very good. Not everybody would be an all-star, but you would get more all-stars than you would get if you didn't do it. Like, you would get more...

1:43:42Bill Simmons:I just think creating shit is different than being good at basketball. It's the exact same thing. I disagree. I agree. Because somebody who's creating something, it's the sum of a lot of the experiences they've had in life. There's also technical expertise that goes into it. It's the work ethic piece. It's the stuff they've watched. It's did they care about this from the moment they were like six years old? Any of the great directors, none of them were like at age 20. Oh, I think I'll try this movie thing. These were people that from the moment they were like six were like seeing everything this way.

1:44:13Bill Simmons:And I just don't think it's like basketball where it's like, that guy's 6 '8". Maybe he'll be good at basketball. Some of it has to come from you. Like when you say like we need more stories, like yeah, we do need more stories. But then that's got to come from the people and they have to care about the stories they're telling and the experiences they have. And by the way, you have to learn from all the content that we have out there. Like there's a lot that goes into it, I think.

1:44:37Sean Fennessey:This is one of the great everybody's right conversations I've ever had. I don't really disagree with anything anyone is saying. I do think that movies are going to continue to be a little bit smaller as a business. It's not going to get bigger again. And I've been getting my head around that for the last couple of years. And so, to me, the thing that I value the most, you could see it in how I try to book interviews on Big Picture. The two kinds of interviews I'm trying to get are the filmmakers I really love or who have made a big movie and first-time directors. That's the two categories I'm looking for.

1:45:12Sean Fennessey:who is a new voice this year. The most recent ones, Ava Victor, who made Sorry Baby, and Alex Russell, who made Lurker. Two really cool debuts that I thought were really interesting. Talk to them, figure out what gets them excited, what's inside of them, what's the thing that motivates them to do this, and then how did they do it? I always ask them, like, how'd you raise the money to do this?

1:45:30Bill Simmons:Well, the Sorry Baby lady was like that. She had a really unconventional background.

1:45:34Sean Fennessey:Yeah, like an online comedian who was like making YouTube videos. But there's more and more people that are coming out of that background that are trying to get into this work because they love movies. Like that's what you find out invariably is ultimately they do love movies. But then there's like, you know, there's still 180 people who are master filmmakers who I'm always interested and curious to talk to. And I hope that they continue to get as much money as possible. But it's that thing in the middle that I'm talking about is the thing that is not really there anymore. And, you know, it doesn't even really matter what your background is.

1:46:07Sean Fennessey:Like you used to be like a white guy, you got a leg up. you're going to be able to get a$75 million movie made because it's got Steven Seagal in it. That whole part of the world just kind of feels gone. You know, like, Caught Stealing was treated like a miracle that it happened because Aronofsky was like, yeah, I'll make like a shit-eating New York crime movie and they'll put it on a million screens because we got Austin Butler. That was like the weirdest thing that happened in movies this year and it didn't really do that well. So I think that there is like a much more global thing going on. Maybe it's boredom and a lack of motivation.

1:46:36Sean Fennessey:Maybe it's a lack of opportunity.

1:46:38Bill Simmons:I don't think it's a lack of motivation. I just think there's way more distractions than there used to be. There's too many things pulling people in different directions.

1:46:45Sean Fennessey:How many times do you think Ben has gone to the movie theater this year? Probably five.

1:46:49Bill Simmons:Do you know what they would be? The biggest ones to go to. And a couple of horror movies. I think his generation, horror movies seem to be the things that have a lot of life right now with like the under 25s. Like they, you go to the, you got to see this in the theater. It's scarier that way. Whereas comedies feel like they're just dead. nobody's like you gotta see this comedy in the theater it's so fun to be around all these people laughing no that hasn't really happened anymore like that even go and remember when like The Hangover came out or there's something about Mary or like I gotta see this in the theater everybody loves this and now it's like I'll just stream it with my girlfriend or whatever I think even some of the streaming some of the streaming stuff they haven't really figured out how to I mean we can't really agree on what makes us laugh anymore what you're supposed to be laughing at I think comedy that's the other problem Maybe that might come back though.

1:47:38Sean Fennessey:I haven't watched I Love L.A. yet, but to me, Rachel Sennett is like a prime example of this where it's like 30 years ago, she would have been a movie star. They would have been building movies around her for a decade trying to make it happen. They would have forced her down our throat. And now after a couple of movies, she's got a TV show on HBO. So I think there are a lot of ways to say what you want to say. And sometimes you don't even have to put it in a story. You just say it on Twitter and all of that stuff. I think there are a group of people, a group of creators, that will feel like, they will feel constrained by the limits of two minutes to tell their story.

1:48:14Yeah. They will feel constrained by the limit of what the reels can do to tell their story. and there is until this changes and maybe it will one thing I'll give the movie industry credit for is to main is that they've maintained the prestige of what it means to be an important filmmaker and all of these different disciplines it's still the highest achievement like of all of these different disciplines prestige is very important certainly it is meaningful you are taken seriously you are lauded you are looked at in a specific way when you are a good, important filmmaker. That's changing in a lot of other disciplines.

1:48:53I think in music, that's changing a little bit. I think that's, but in film right now, if you can make a movie that literally gets people out of themselves, like we still revel when we talk about Denny, when we talk about PTA, when we talk about all of these, we're still waiting for the next one. That has not gone away. I think people will chase the importance and the prestige and what it means to tell stories. But I also think this. I think legitimately there is some kid in South Louisiana right now that looks around and his shit is fucked up. And he's like, I want everybody to know. I want everybody to see this.

1:49:31A documentary ain't good enough. I saw Nickel Boys. I want to fuck with the camera. I want to do some different shit. I think it was people that when they saw Clarksdale and Sinners, they were like, you know what? I come from a place just like that. I want to do some crazy shit And I want people to understand this You cannot understand No one can make a TikTok And make you understand Clarksdale, Mississippi Or the blues Or that culture As much as it is when you see the sweat coming off the people I think that's still meaningful I just hope that we are Really, really intentional I'll say again About giving people those opportunities Because your master filmmakers They've always existed and I respect them.

1:50:13Like, I respect them. Sometimes I watch movies and then I'll actually stop the movie and then go look at the script because I'll be like, how the fuck is this written? I can't see how you would write that if you wanted to do it. And sometimes when you look at it, it's so fucking different than what it is. I know you read a lot of scripts. It's so fucking different than how you would see. And if it were something that you were writing, they would be like, what the fuck are you doing?

1:50:41Sean Fennessey:Well, the even crazier thing, it's kind of appropriate that we're doing this with the De Palma conversation, but I was at the Academy Museum with my daughter on Sunday, and there's a Bong Joon-ho exhibit. See? At the Academy Museum with his daughter, she's going to grow up with a specific appreciation for film and going to the Academy Museum. She's going to turn 11 and turn on. I'm giving her opportunity, to your point, to learn. But she didn't really care about the Bong Joon-ho exhibit for obvious reasons. She was very into the Greenwood and Spencer production design of Barbie. But I was able to explain to her very clearly because in that exhibit, which is really cool, Bong storyboards every movie.

1:51:21Sean Fennessey:And he storyboards every single image he wants to see. And they have the storyboards up in the museum. So I can hold her up and show her the images and say, this is a movie that I've seen. The man who made this movie saw the entire movie in his head before he made it. and while he was writing the script, he was drawing the movie so that he could create the images. This is something Martin Scorsese does. He storyboards all of these shots. In that documentary, he designs all this stuff. So it's like, it's both things. It's like, there are people who can see these things and who have these skills, but also those people have been protected and supported over time.

1:51:56Sean Fennessey:And that's why my daughter will be a master filmmaker. Case closed. This is legitimately the last thing I say because I know that this will probably be broke out as a separate podcast. this is the first episode of baggage and bias baggage and bias that's a good first i will say this baggage and bias with van lathe baggage and bias i will say this you guys realize that the bad nba players are as important as the good ones so you must have bad movies bad art is as essential as good art like michael jordan doesn't exist if there's no one to compare him to the

1:52:31Bill Simmons:Okay, but you're leaving out the part that it's worse to fail in the 2020s than it's ever been. And this is the thing that has not ruined writing, but really changed it and affected it and made it so much different than it was 15 years ago. And why the essay writing and features and everything seems so much more, there's a sameness and a blandness to it that just wasn't there when we were doing Greatland. Because people didn't care if they took a big swing. Now everyone is always worried about getting filleted on the internet about whatever. It's why I think there's no Nick Cage's right now. Because Nick Cage's like authentic weird self would get destroyed in a movie now.

1:53:09Sean Fennessey:But you almost can't speak about this. Because you feed off the heat. You're like fucking Razor Ramon. You're like, yeah, give it to me.

1:53:15Bill Simmons:But this is, these are the TMZ reps. Right. You developed your thick skin. Yeah, it callous me over. There's still some times that get to me. But it callous me over. But what I am saying is... Tyler Shuck jokes. Don't be a fuck that shit What I'm saying is It is essential Failure is essential But you say that This is where you do the van thing Most people don't want to fail They don't want to take a chance And fail once But you have to fail to be good at something You have to take chances I still haven't made a good pod

1:53:48Sean Fennessey:I've been podding for almost 10 years I'm still waiting for my first good pod

1:53:51Bill Simmons:The ability to embrace a failure And be like that didn't work I learned from it now I'll do this next thing I think is really scary to a lot of people and part of it is from how people grow up now how people what they're told what they read how mean people can be online that's very true there's a whole bunch of factors that go into it and I think part of this what I'm talking about is maybe us changing our relationship to that I saw a movie that's another one how's that gonna happen I saw a movie earlier this year by somebody who I know is a talented filmmaker I know for sure they're a talented filmmaker I could see it in a movie the movie itself is just not very good it's just not that good but you can look into the movie and see pieces you can see it I could see that with Jake LaRavia though but like he's so close to being good he went for like 32 he's been pretty good he went off well now he's been good stop being racist towards white people if he was the whites are saving the Lakers if he was Darius Washington LaRavia you would be like the Lakers need the whites

1:54:53Sean Fennessey:The Reeves-LaRavia two-man game was Friday night. Going crazy. Wild. Going crazy. The MAGA pick and roll. But what I'm saying is that there has to be... I'm just talking about... I'm talking about believing in people. Everyone believes in people. I know. You keep presenting like you have... This magic elixir. The most noble point of view. which it is noble. I'm not saying it's noble. I'm just saying... Can we have 35 years of film schools and scholarships and Sundance? I'm not... There could be doing more. I'm not saying... No, they definitely can. They definitely can. They definitely can. I'm not saying it to sound noble.

1:55:37I'm not even saying it to be noble. I'm saying it's legitimately the only way the thing keeps going. I agree with you. I agree with that. The only... Yes. That's why I'm a little bit... Gotta give me more people more shots all the time. It's the only way you find it.

1:55:51Bill Simmons:Totally agree. But who's... I'm just curious, like, who's giving them more shots? We've already established none of these movie studios give a shit about anybody.

1:55:58Sean Fennessey:That, I mean, that is a real problem. And that's never changing. That is a real problem. That's been movie studios

1:56:01Bill Simmons:for a hundred years. That's not true. What's not true? What movie did PTA make after Hard Eight? It made Boogie Nights. Now, how difficult of a sale do you think Do you know why they did Boogie Nights? Because they thought it was going to make money. That's why they greenlight every movie. they definitely thought it was going to make money, but also, it was just a cool fucking idea. Because the guy was a fucking prodigy. I understand, but there are so many films, though. Very specific time. Indie films are taking off. Mike DeLuca really wanted to work. The Weinstein era was like all of the independents were popping.

1:56:33Everyone's looking for young filmmakers. It was like a moment in time.

1:56:36Sean Fennessey:As we give... That can happen again. It should. It's happening. It can happen again. No, it has to. Yeah, when it has, it has happened. Because we just talked about one battle after another. legitimately, if somebody doesn't go, oh my God, look, interesting, this guy, great, amazing dude, then the movie never happens. And by the way, not only does the movie never happen, but you then get... You can't mention P.T. though. That's like saying Giannis is great.

1:57:04Bill Simmons:We gotta find more people from Greece. P.T. is like a generational prodigy. What do you mean it's like saying Giannis is great? He's literally named the freak. P.T. is the freak. But do you understand what I'm saying though? P.T. was making 8mm 90-minute movies when he was 15. So, think about this, though. What is Giannis? Giannis is the... A physical freak. But he's also the eventuality of... With an amazing work ethic. Just let me get it out. I see what Van is saying. He's also the eventuality... Investing in Europe. Yes. Spreading the game around the country. So, Giannis did not just happen because of an individualistic set of circumstances.

1:57:41That's part of the reason why he is who he is. but in 1986 there would have been a Giannis who would have never made the NBA because we weren't there yet

1:57:50Sean Fennessey:this is another way of thinking about this you've both made a good point which is that also movies have just become internationally democratized in a way and there are many of the biggest movies of the year not made in America anymore we thought of America as the absolute hub as movie making for forever but Asia makes so many of the most popular films around the world European cinema is still pretty strong not as strong as it used to be but still pretty strong You know, there's obviously African cinema, South American cinema. Like, these are things we don't watch. Bollywood is still, is massive right now.

1:58:20Sean Fennessey:We're watching anime coming out of Japan. It's enormous, even in this country. So, it's not, it is kind of like what happened in the NBA like 20 years ago, where it was like, oh, wow. The All-Star Game is actually 40 % European, and it's going to increasingly be moving in that direction. It's going to be first to go on the NBA this year.

1:58:38Bill Simmons:It's going to be all Europeans, it looks like. I'll tell you this. So I've been working on... I think I'm going to do a podcast. And I thought I was going to already do it. But as you know, I feel like I'm... Sports movies. That's been my favorite thing to write about. What? I was going to do the 20 best sports movies of this century. Okay. So I've been kind of watching them on the side. And we've done some of them. Happy Gun Burt 2, number one. No, so I really love The Way Back with Affleck. Me too. I think that's a great movie. And I think that's probably my favorite sports movie this decade.

1:59:10Bill Simmons:but anyway I was watching it the last week and then the movie ends and it's like directed by Gavin O 'Connor written by Brad Inglesby and it's like well that's why

1:59:18Sean Fennessey:that movie's good yeah yeah

1:59:20Bill Simmons:and Affleck by the way is probably the best he's ever been in a movie in that movie but it's also the pedigree of the writing that he had and the person who directed it who is a fucking artist yep and you need all of these different pieces to have a good movie in it did you see I think that's I mean this with no disrespect to Gavin O 'Connor

1:59:38Sean Fennessey:whose movies I love but the next movie that Gavin O 'Connor made also starred Ben Affleck and it was The Accountant 2 and The Accountant isn't very good The Accountant 2 isn't very good and that movie was made because it needed to get made because it would further people's careers and be good for the studios and it's like I legitimately think Gavin O 'Connor is a gifted artist but that is actually a testimony to how fucked up everything is right now what's the robot lady movie that we that they companion did you see that yeah

2:00:05Bill Simmons:did you like it I really liked the performance by the lead Sophie Thatcher

2:00:11Sean Fennessey:Okay Yeah

2:00:11Bill Simmons:She's terrific

2:00:12Sean Fennessey:I think she's really good

2:00:13Bill Simmons:I think she's really great too I didn't really like the movie And I would never want to watch it again Are you out on Jack Quaid? No Not only did I like it I loved it Yeah I loved it I liked it a lot I loved the movie I thought it was fantastic Robot Lady Everybody Robots We don't know who the robots are Very cool All set in one place All of that Remember I watch movies Remember Worth Winning With Mark Harmon Have you ever seen that? Remember that? Mark Harmon trying to

2:00:38Sean Fennessey:You always pull this move. You just say in a movie from some 30 years ago, remember that movie? That was good. And often it was. But it's a totally unimportant movie. That's my thing. Right, right. My thing is it's like worth winning with Mark Harmon, where Mark Harmon plays a handsome weatherman who is trying to figure out, I think, what lady to marry or something. It's a totally unimportant movie. I get that The Way Back is like one of the best sports movies and they had all of these guys behind it. But sometimes good movies are like totally unimportant. They're for the moment. Yeah. Films to be consumed and ideas that people had.

2:01:17So there does not have to be a murderer's role of creators behind every film.

2:01:22Bill Simmons:Do you think there should be a movie about Gooner culture? Yeah. I'm already writing that. Write it every day.

2:01:27Sean Fennessey:I was wondering if the three of us should write a film for Carla Gugino. And Gooner culture.

2:01:33Bill Simmons:This podcast itself is a bit of a goon. Yeah. It really is. Anyway. We should have invited people to a theater. All gotten together. Yeah, I guess we should probably wrap it up. Probably should wrap it up. Getting a little lightheaded. Me too. I need something to eat. But the last thing I'll say is, y 'all talking all of this? Y 'all do this every day. Do what every day? Every day I see people that used to be a fucking PA or intern or the producer or all of that shit. every day I see talent developed at the ringer. Every day. I see capitalization of people. Here comes the glaze. It's not glaze.

2:02:12Bill Simmons:That's the other bad podcast. It's a secret of baggage and bias. Here comes the glaze. Can I be real with you though? Here comes the glaze. This would be a huge hit. Here comes the glaze. The only reason why I'm saying that though is because I come from a place where that kind of didn't happen as much. I'm blown away with the young people that we have at the ringer and how and like how they do it. And so I'm, I can't believe you. I can believe, I can't believe you. I can't believe that you are against young filmmakers and young filmmakers.

2:02:42Sean Fennessey:Just stop. Just stop. I'm fucking with you guys. I'm fucking with you guys. So just takeaways. Bill says, no more opportunities for young people. That's it. Especially filmmakers of color. Absolutely not. My takeaway. Done. Yeah.

2:02:54Bill Simmons:Here's my big takeaway. Go to TikTok. Use your imagination. Yeah. Read. Watch stuff. Sit at a stoplight. Just look around at the lights.

2:03:03Sean Fennessey:Yeah, buy physical media if you can afford it.

2:03:06Bill Simmons:Buy physical media. Learn from the best people.

2:03:08Sean Fennessey:Watch the Mac through True Romance. Best being subjective, but yeah. Watch Jake LaRavia. Don't doom scroll. See how he worked hard to get where he is today, even as a white American. Is he American, Jake LaRavia? I think he is. Okay. And by the way, now we have to respond to that guy. You do. I've read every email. Tell him I've read them too, but I won't be responding. Yeah, I know. Sometimes you can't, but I've read every email. I've read every email. It's secretly me. It's my script. Is it you? All right.

2:03:35Bill Simmons:That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Shield. Thanks to Van. Thanks to Sean. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Thursday at some point with the third podcast of the week. And new rewatchable is coming on Monday. So I will see you on Thursday.

2:04:01He lives with him

2:04:06Bill Simmons:Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Visit rg-help.com. Call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This message is brought to you by Mariner. It takes the right team to help develop an athlete's talents. Managing your money works the same way. You've ever thought, am I getting the most out of my financial plan?

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