Down Goes OKC! Spurs-Knicks is Here! What the Hell Just Happened? And What Does OKC Do Now? | With Zach Lowe

23:29Like, it's just a weapon that no one has an answer to yet.

23:32Bill Simmons:You know when you really noticed it? When he would come out of the game and SGA was like, when I let Murph out in the backyard, he just runs around. SGA was like, he's not out there. You could just see like the hop in his step. It's like, oh my God. Hey, look, that's what the rim looks like. You led with it almost as a joke. I do think that Cornette block, if we're going to talk about the Wemby on the bench minutes, I mean, that was if he finishes that fast break, Hartenstein or passes it off to Wallace because it was kind of a two on one that makes it 97, 93. Wemby's in foul trouble. Crowd's going crazy.

24:06Instead, it's a block. And I can't remember who ends up scoring at the other end to make it 99, 91. Just it was a castle. It was a castle jumper that, and their, their transition defense, the entire series was just balls to the wall. Oklahoma city just could not convert in transition as consistently because everything was contested. The rebounds were contested, like credit to Spurs. That's the kind of urgency it takes to beat a team like this four times. And like that Cornette, that Cornette block was maybe the moment of the entire game. I don't know, but it's up there.

24:43Bill Simmons:Well, there were two moments when it felt like OKC was going to make a run, and that was one. So it's 97-92, 6.48 left. Wemby has to come out. And then there was that other one when it was, I'm going to say it was like two minutes left. Wallace hit that second three. And then San Antonio inbounded the ball. All this stuff's blending together. And they just decided to run the let's throw it to Wemby play. Oh, yeah. Door took it away. Door took it. And OKC just couldn't convert, but it felt like, oh my God, this would be the classic young team falling apart piece. But listen, I really respect when somebody knows how to handle themselves with five fouls because they brought him back a minute later.

25:28Bill Simmons:He came back with like over five minutes left. And the announcers were talking about it. I agreed like I'm just going at him and trying to get that six one. And there were a couple of times it felt like they could have attacked him and they just didn't. So there were a couple of things San Antonio did even in this game to try to get him a little more open. A couple of times they just put him in the corner and basically left him on one side and had him not really back down, but he was at least 18 feet where he can go toward the paint with his right hand. So maybe trying to think what stuff the Knicks will try to do against him.

26:03Bill Simmons:Now, the Knicks have that Mitchell Robinson finger thing. I assume he's going to play, but who knows? They'll have Towns to throw at him, who's a dumb foul waiting to happen all the time. Other than that, who are they going to be able to... OG would be the other one, I guess. Ananobi guarded him quite a lot. I re-watched all the games this weekend to prep for... Little Josh Hart, maybe? Split second or no? Josh didn't guard him much. Josh guarded Steph Castle a lot. OG guarded him a lot. Probably Towns and Ananobi and Robinson. And then there's random guys who are in these games because they're regular season games.

26:34Like Huck Portie comes in and whatever. I think we'll see a little bit of, and that is where the Harrison Barnes swap out of the starting lineup for Champagny, who was absolutely nailed in this game tonight. Looms large because when the Knicks would play around like that and put Ananobi on Wembenyama, Harrison Barnes was the guy that they would be like, all right, Kat, just like stand in the corner with Harrison Barnes and that's safe for you. And that's not, that doesn't really exist anymore. But the Robinson, I just want to flag it now. I think he's a massive deal in this series because one of the other things I've come to believe watching Wemby is everyone searches for like, what's an answer?

27:11What's the, is there an answer? Is there a player? And like I said, I don't think there is one. There's no individual player. I think shooting is an answer. And I do think an elite offensive rebounder and lob catcher, someone that he's got to think about, like if I try to block every shot and even I'm going to miss some, am I going to get, am I going to get punished? on the other end of it? Or is there a lob threat? And I think Mitchell Robinson, obviously in the Vegas game, he had like a thousand offensive rebounds. I think that player type is a really important player type against the Spurs.

27:43And like, if they don't have Mitchell Robinson full throttle, I think that's a bigger problem in this matchup than it would have been against the Thunder.

27:52Bill Simmons:I wrote, anytime I watch a game like this, I always write down in the second quarter, in bold, the guys who, I think I trust in the game. So for the Spurs, I had Wemby, Castle, Fox, Vassell, Harper, and Champagny. So it's six guys for them. And that was before the Keldon Johnson renaissance in the second half, right? They had seven guys really show up in this game, not to mention Cornette, who had the biggest defensive play. For OKC, at that point... By the way, I just want to point out, that's basically all seven guys who played in the game. The other three guys played six minutes, three minutes, and three minutes.

28:30Bill Simmons:I felt great about all those guys. OKC, I had SGA, McCain, Caruso. And then I had iHeart, question mark, and J. Will, question mark. And those were the only five guys I had for OKC. Now, I didn't have Wallace down. And Wallace came on in the second. He didn't really play as much in the first half. And Wallace should have been on there. Maybe I forgot to write him down. But it was interesting. I didn't have Chet. And I didn't have Keldon Johnson. and Keldon Johnson, who I thought really wasn't good this series. But then in the second half, he had some big offensive rebounds. He had a couple big threes that there were a couple no-no-yes threes and had the right kind of energy.

29:14Bill Simmons:Whereas from the OKC standpoint, Dort was that guy for them last year. He would give them energy with defense, with just kind of veteran stuff. and he just wasn't, I didn't feel like he was the same in this playoffs. Look, I think it's not second guessing. I, I, I, and certainly I was not alone said after game six, like, I don't think you can start Dort and Holmgren and Hardenstein again in game seven because you're just getting boat raced at the beginning of every game. Would you have started Harper and Baylor and Baylor Shireman? I, I, again, I said after that game, I don't know, like we always say chestnut checkers.

29:52I'm not sure what Mizzoula was playing. I think he was playing Boggle that night, neither Chess nor Checkers. Had to have been some Boggle. I just couldn't believe he started that lineup again. To his credit, he pulled Dort real fast and put Caruso in, and the damage was not as severe as it could have been. But every time the Thunder got close, there were two times the Thunder took the lead, and when they took the lead, it felt like they had gotten to the top of the mountain, and boy, what a relief. And just instantaneously, the Spurs would go on like a 9-0 run to say like, no, no, we're going to retake control of the game.

30:25The first one is at the end of the first half when they finished on a 7-0 run right after the Thunder took the lead. And I think there was another time in the second half. And just like, that's so impressive to take that punch, to have the crowd going like that, four-point lead, three-point lead, whatever it was, and just instantaneously like, oh, an 11-0 run just happened. And it's not just they're ahead again, they're in control of the game again, and they got to fight back again from 7-8, 9 down. It's just like sensational responses by the Spurs.

30:53Bill Simmons:Fox especially, I thought, had a couple big boy moments. Right when the momentum felt like it was shifting against him and he had some old school... Did he win Clutch Player of the Year? He might have. I don't know. For the second, he was like... He did. No, he did. I think it was the Beam Team year, which was the first year they had the award. I don't have my Clutch Player of the Year by year thing framed yet, so I'm not able to look at it. But it was the old school. Fox ended with 15-5. He had three steals. and I thought he did an okay job anytime he was on SGA too. Like when, you know, I don't even really know who OKC was trying to switch SGA onto because it felt like every single guy was at least, you know, passable with Wemby behind them.

31:37Bill Simmons:There wasn't like a, like a black hole type person. If we'd gone to the next series, it would have been Brunson. It ends up not mattering because of the guy that's, that's behind him, like you said. Yeah. So Champagny hit, Six threes. And it was interesting. They didn't close with Basel. He was on the bench, I felt like, for most of the end because they were playing Harper, who we have to talk about. Oh, man. Listen, man. I've talked about it before, so have you. 20-year-old point guards doing this on this stage on the road is unheard of. Yeah, I'm trying not to use the word generational, but we're talking 1980 Magic Johnson at age 20 in the finals.

32:24Bill Simmons:And we're talking Derek Rose and that both Celtics playoff series. 20 year old point guards are a mess. They're like, they're like freshmen in high school, just trying to remember what their locker combination is. And just trying to survive the day and remember where the classrooms are. They're not supposed to be running the offense. He had that one when he, we backed down. I can't remember who it was. He backed him down, did the footwork thing and kind of stopped. I think traveled. It felt like it might have been a travel, but somehow ended up pulling. But I just, we're going to have 15 years of that.

32:54Bill Simmons:I thought that was such an important game for him because now, you know, the Knicks, that atmosphere is going to be even crazier. It's the finals. The spotlight's a little bigger, but I think they know with him. He seemed healthy to me too the last two games, which is the big thing. Yeah, bounce back. His bounce is back. His power around the rim is back. He tried to do that crazy dunk too. Yeah. In the fourth quarter. which was probably a mistake, but he was like, I'm going for it. He went on Chet. Which was that whole team. Yeah. I mean, they killed some clock before, but again, I was surprised that he just went for it, but I'm also not because he thinks he's going to pull it off.

33:26And imagine if you do, you just, I think Chet Holmgren would have just broken into like 10 ,000 pieces and that would have been the end of him. And like, I don't know what you, I just don't know what would have happened.

33:37Bill Simmons:Poor Chet. This is really going to be going to be a tough one for him. So Harper, Castle, Fox together. This was the dream. When you get Fox, when it's like, we'll have these three guys. Sometimes we'll even be able to play them together. This will ease Harper into this. The Fox on a bigger stage on a better team. Fox is in Sacramento. And would you call them in our over under pod? The Hindenburg or the NBA. I said they were heading for a Hindenburg level season. By the way, we have a De 'Aaron Fox, Mike Brown. We got off the Hindenburg reunion coming up in the finals. We have a reunion for them.

34:12Bill Simmons:But Fox gets out of there. the ringers rich paul smartly puts him on wemby's team which was i think a good move and uh and this couldn't have worked out better i mean he you guess where else he could be on sacramento with rossel westbrook and de rosen and uh waiting to see who they pick who they're gonna how they're gonna fuck up the seventh pick so you have that castle was you know i thought he was incredible the whole series for his he's 21 it's not like he's 10 years older than harper the defense when he had the four fouls I was nervous for them because it's like I don't know if you can survive if he's out of the game that long I don't know what has he become what is what is Castle in five years for you who is he I mean an all-star for sure a multi-time who's the doppelganger who like who is it I mean you have to think who's a big physical guard who who gets by with brute force and passing creativity around it and by that time is probably a more reliable jump shooter than he is now, although he shot the three well in the playoffs.

35:15Like I'm trying to even think of who plays with the raw power and like ferocity that he has. Like he plays as if he plays with like a hatred of the guy in front of him. Like, I just want to beat the shit out of you and go up right in your face.

35:31Bill Simmons:Yeah, he was tired of Caruso after seven games. I think he had enough of him. I don't know. I don't know who he is. No one is coming to my mind as a great guard wing doppelganger for him. It's somebody that definitely belonged in a different era and decade. I think he would have been really happy in 2003 or 2004 being in those Pacers Piston series. I don't really know even who to compare him to. Like a meaner... Is he taller than Dwayne Wade? like a meaner, more aggressive, more like powerful Dwayne Wade. I don't know. It's like a Dwayne Wade crossed with Alvin Robertson. I'm going to go back to the 80s.

36:15Bill Simmons:Alvin Robertson. So anyway, you have that. You have this Cornette sign in that they do. That was really smart. They played the Celtics perfectly. And then Cornette, every time Wemby comes out, they lose the Cornette minutes. And at some point, I had a couple of people in my life who liked the Spurs. They're like, what's up with this Cornette? What a stiff. I'm like, he's not a stiff. Cornette's a good backup. This is just for whatever reason, can't get it going this series. And then finally, it was able to hold the fort a little tonight. But what's interesting about them going forward, they have the Wemby extension this summer regardless, but they could still kind of dabble and make this team better.

36:51Bill Simmons:I don't even know what you would do because you always want to base this stuff on who do we have in a game seven that we trust and we just went through it. I have seven guys I like. Yeah, they have small windows to do small to medium things. the big things are over um i looked at it a little bit too and i didn't think too deeply about it because the series was still going on there it's not nearly as like financially dire as what's about to hit the thunder um and well and then and they have the carter bryant piece too like if he emerges keldin johnson expiring next year but if carter bryant becomes that perfect like defensive physical banger who can also hit threes and play next to wimby that's kind of what they need so well and the the the kelden johnson one is a big one because if they end up having to keep him at what a fair rate would be for a guy who just won six men of the year it get and they love him and maybe they will but if they keep him they're gonna i think they should probably want to resign extend or resign champagney they have a team option on him next year for nothing for three million dollars they get pretty expensive if they keep everybody together but again they have windows now and by the way we should we always do this thing where we we, the collective we, everybody points out when a team like the Rockets were the first team that we talked about like this.

38:05The Pistons have gotten a little flack for it. Like, well, they had all these trade assets and they did nothing at the trade deadline and look how it came back to haunt them in the playoffs. The Spurs did nothing at the trade deadline and they have a lot of assets and everyone, I think, thought they were going to do something at the trade deadline and they didn't. And they're in the finals. So sometimes it goes the other way too.

38:22Bill Simmons:I was okay with them because I felt like It was probably a year ahead of schedule. They needed to taste their own butt in the playoffs. As it turned out, they didn't. No, they just, they're drinking everybody else's blood. But yeah, it's just like, let's take a year and see what we have. Because that's like what Sam Presti would have done, for instance. But as it turned out, it turned out to be an incredible move. And they have a bunch of picks too. Like they're going to be able to have some maneuverability. So how many Knicks fans in your life were texting you over the last 48 hours, asking you who they should be rooting for in this game.

38:58Oh, just countless.

38:59Bill Simmons:Because I had every single Knicks fan I knew was like, what do you think? Who should I root for? And I'm like, if I'm you, I don't want to play Wemby in the finals. That's who I would root for. So it's funny. I said this with Goldsberry. I just think you just have to say I don't care because the easy answer is like the answer they default to is the Spurs because we beat the Spurs twice, including in the cup, and we looked pretty comfortable against them. We killed them at home in March. and the Thunder of the Thunder, I'm like, I just don't. The Spurs have risen to the level where there's just no great answer here.

39:32They're both bad answers. But if Jalen Williams is hurt and AJ Mitchell is hurt, I think the Thunder might actually be the better answer because I don't want any part of these guys. But they're just excited. And honestly, weirdly, a lot of them were, a lot of my Knicks fans' friends and acquaintances and people I run into were rooting for the Spurs regardless because they're just fascinated with Wemby and they have a lot of people really just have bought into, even casual fans have bought into like the flopping with Oklahoma City drives me crazy and I just don't like the way they play. Like Knicks fans were, they're just like, you know what, let's have some fun with Wemby.

40:08It'll be fun at the very least.

40:10Bill Simmons:I am delighted that we don't have to talk about flopping anymore. Thank God. Thank God that's over for content. And the most fun possible series was Knicks Spurs. even though the basketball historian side of me was like, man, OKC going through wars to try to win two straight titles like that would be really meaningful. That would put them on this whole other level. But Nick Spurs is the most fun series. And if you're the league, this is like the this is the all time wet. The only other wet dream, if you're talking wet dream finals, it's this one it's 2016 lebron rematch against the 73 win warriors coming off the clay thompson okc game it's the 2010 laker celtics rematch right those are the three wet dream finals for the league and this might be number one honestly out of everything we mentioned because you have the revival of the knicks you have 53 years and generations of fans waiting for this forever and you have Wemby, your next guy, the guy who's ready to replace LeBron and Curry as the guy in the league, already here.

41:22Bill Simmons:It's like what we had in 2007, except the rest of his team is actually good when it was Spurs-Cavs. And it's like, LeBron's here. Yeah, but he's playing with guys that have no chance against his Spurs team. This is different. Like, Wemby could actually win it. And I feel like we have some history with Wemby, too, now. And I think the Olympics was really important with that. But even though he's young and he hasn't been around and he missed half of last season, I still feel like I've seen him in some basketball games. He doesn't feel like a shiny new car to me. He can't to you, right? We've been watching him for a few years now.

41:56We've been talking about him as arguably the best player in the league for five months now. He's here. He's been in big games. The international stuff was big. NBA Cup. Yeah. And this is, you know, another finals without any of the sort of older generation players that have carried the league for a long time. And it's the first, I think, well, I mean, depending on what you how you perceive of Shea or whatever. But obviously, there is a guy like everyone. Everyone is fascinated by Wembenyama. People who have watched two basketball games the entire year and kind of half watch them while drinking in the suite somewhere at MSG.

42:30Like, can't wait to watch this guy play on a big stage.

42:34Bill Simmons:he did a thing today in the fourth quarter it was it was like halfway through the fourth quarter Dylan Harper maybe even like four minutes left Dylan Harper ended up with the ball and he kind of lost it around the foul line and all of a sudden there's a fast break and the OKC had a two on one and they ended up throwing into the left corner to McCain and Wemby was hustling back and he's on like the three point line but somehow challenged the shot and he did like that crazy Wemby like Freddy Krueger movie does. And he almost blocked it. And if he had blocked it, that would have been the greatest block I've ever seen.

43:09If I had had time, I would have gone back and slowed it down because he's running and you know he's going to jump at it. And you're just thinking he's so big that he's just, Jerry McCain is at least going to know that he's coming, but probably also think he can't actually get to it. But I'm easing my head a little bit. Like, did he actually almost like a figurative on it?

43:32Bill Simmons:he almost had it it seemed like he did from the camera and that's why Tariqo on the call God bless him was like oh Wemby did that Cornette contest and I'm like oh if only Luke Cornette could do a Cornette contest like that that was that was not the Cornette contest that was something altogether different I get where you're going he started from very far away but that was not the Cornette contest this episode is brought to you by New Era alright if you love the 90s NBA listen up New Era just dropped the Hardwood Classics 90s collection and it's stacked It pays respect to the golden era of basketball with iconic teams like the Bulls, Rockets, Spurs, Suns, and Pistons.

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44:41Bill Simmons:You're ready for Mariner. With Mariner, you get an advisor backed by a full team of specialists. So everything's working together toward your goals. Take the next step in your financial journey with Mariner. Investment advisory services offered through Mariner LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. For more information, visit Mariner.com. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. It's not always easy to show love, but there is one way to express how you feel, food. And what better way to say I love you than with Panda Express's delicious, authentically cooked American Chinese cuisine.

45:15Bill Simmons:Whether it's eating with someone you love or while watching the team you love, you can pick from tasty options like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, Kung Pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Have you eaten yet? Order now or visit a Panda Express near you. FanDuel has the finals line for us. Okay. You saw it? You looked at it? I saw it. It was not what I would have guessed. I'll tell you what I would have guessed after, but what is your guess? Spurs. Spurs. Spurs. Very slight favorites. Like what is the proper terminology? Like minus one 10 or something like that. Like minus. So like minus one 25 minus one 30 range is slight favorites.

45:55Yeah.

45:55Bill Simmons:Yeah. So I would have said Spurs minus 150. And it's Spurs minus 205. Two to one favorites. Very similar to the Boston-Dallas finals line. If you want to do Spurs sweep, that's plus 730. If you want to do Knicks in four, Knicks in five, that's 16 to one or 12 to one. If you want to do the greatest night of basically everyone's life that we know from New York, Knicks win in six. plus 480. Look, if the Knicks win in six, shut down New York city. I'm either, I'm either sleeping in Madison square garden or I'm doing a live podcast from the street, just drinking with crazy people. And you may never see me again.

46:42Those are the only, those are the only two.

46:44Bill Simmons:Not sure we see really anybody again. I don't know what happens. I mean, that will be the highest price basketball ticket of all time. It will be in the running for highest price sports ticket of all time. I don't know. If assuming we get it, let's assume we knock on wood that we have a game six and maybe a game seven in these finals. I'm, I'm supposed to go there. I can't go live after game two because my son is graduating high school. Big moment. Last time I skipped a game for his graduation was the Curry game, uh, Curry game for Boston gold state when he graduated the, which you have stated grade, which you have stated was probably good for your emotional health to not be at the game, despite its historic significance.

47:28Bill Simmons:I felt like whatever I did, they were going to lose, but I'm glad I didn't go. I missed the greatest game of Steph Curry's career, but my son obviously means more as he does for this high school graduation. But it's just, it almost guarantees game two is going to be good. I'm not saying I have those powers, but. It's good for Ben Simmons that he's stayed above NBA players that you don't really know in the Bill Simmons love power rankings, that he's sustained in these intervening four years that he hasn't fallen off at all, teenage Ben Simmons. And stayed ahead of the other Ben Simmons, who is now a professional fisherman.

48:00Bill Simmons:That was another thing. I was worried he was going to be, like, what if Ben Simmons had been Wembenyama, like been the biggest star in the league, and my son had the same name. Did inside the NBA work Ben Simmons into the Sixers gone fishing graphic? They must have, right? Like, if they didn't, like, what a missed opportunity. He could be on another boat just fishing randomly, like not even not even on the Sixers boat. He's just on a boat nearby. Yeah, is that going to in a boat in the back? Yeah. You don't have to say your finals pick, but are you leaning? I'll save it for your podcast. The Zach Lowe show.

48:35Bill Simmons:A great podcast. Yeah, we're going to record. Are you leaning longer series or shorter? Longer, longer. I haven't I haven't made up. I haven't made up my mind on who I'm going to pick to win, but I will say I think the line. I would not favor the Spurs by as much as Vegas is favoring off the bat. I think this next thing is real. Like, I think it's legit. I don't care what the level of competition is like to do this for this long. And you just know, like, I know what my eyes saw, how they are playing. But the Mitchell Robinson thing is a big, a big X factor. The other X factor is the Spurs probably just feel like they won the title, even though they have another team waiting.

49:14Bill Simmons:but that was such a, to come back 3-2 to do that on the road, it's about as emotional of just getting to the finals. I'm trying to think, who would have had a more emotional we just won the conference finals win in the recent history of the NBA? Because normally it's more veteran teams, right? I guess OKC beating San Antonio in 2012, but even that wasn't a game seven. Oh, but we're thinking like winners, like they had to have won the series. Winning the conference finals, being that emotional to just win a conference finals. Miami beating Boston in 2012 was a good one. But they were home. Yeah.

49:54Bill Simmons:But yeah, it's pretty rare to have like, I remember going back to the 90s because I wrote down, it's funny, I went through all the game sevens in conference finals because what was rare about the thing today, there was every time it's under 200 points. like for uh basically before 1993 every game has been under 200 points except for 2002 lakers kings overtime was 106 102 so usually they're rock fights and then for the most part the home teams always won until recently and that was the fifth one in a row that the road team has won um which is nuts the home teams conference finals game seven conference finals game seven specifically.

50:38Bill Simmons:But I'm looking at the list of most emotional ones. I guess LeBron beating Boston by himself in 2018 is up there. That was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. He played all 48. I know he'd won a couple titles already, but the emotion of just dragging that team that he had all the way three series, that was pretty nuts. That was the only emotional Eastern Conference triumph for that LeBron 2.0 in Cleveland because the other ones, I'm not even sure they realized what round they were in and someone was just told no you actually are in the finals now you get to play the West team you just beat all these teams again 94 Knicks over Indiana was one and then Barkley over Seattle in 93 was another one and then the most famous one for me was the Celtics Sixers won in 81 when everyone charged a court and you know that's still I think the greatest playoff season of the time Stockton shot in Houston oh that's a great one 97 yeah the Matt Maloney team that's a really good one but I wonder how much they have left in the tank Wemby has never played this many minutes for this kind of a stretch they've been really really really careful with him almost like a pitcher not throwing more than like 5-6 innings but he was 40 minutes or around there for about a month so we'll see what happens we'll see what they have left in the tank let's talk about what happens with OKC okay i always like to play what do you do with you so we talked about the safest thing to do is just be like look man we won the title last year we had a big bullseye on us all year it was the first time we became the villains the flopping thing became a huge storyline constantly um people just didn't like us that's always a weird thing to deal with for the first time and then we had some bad luck in the playoffs we went against um a guy who's the best the best player the league's had since LeBron and Curry from a ceiling standpoint and a team that just took it from us and we were banged up and injured and let's not overreact.

52:38Bill Simmons:That would be the safe, smart move. I don't think they're going to do that. Okay. What do you think they're going to do? I think you have to start getting creative with some of these picks because the thing that they have is they can go 130, 140 cents on the dollar in a trade. And you're stockpiling all these picks. Now they just changed with the lottery form. Those picks might actually be even worth a little bit more than maybe they used to be. But, you know, I'm just not wasting this SGA window when he's this good. You know, when he's, this is four years in a row now where he's been one of the one to four best players in the league and you just never know when that window is going to end.

53:18Bill Simmons:So I would try to get at least a little creative. What do they need? What's your, what's your all time fixer? Just improve the Chet spot. What would be your move? I mean, but how am I improving the Chet spot? Giannis? Again, I have to aggregate. Anything's possible when you have as many picks as the Thunder have. DeAndre Ayton? The restrictions of the second... I'm not going to let that slide. The restrictions of the second apron are real and make it very hard for the Thunder to make trades because they can't aggregate salaries. They can't take back a dime more. There's a lot of restrictions that just make this mechanically much.

53:55Bill Simmons:Are they over the second apron now or it's next year? They're not over it now. I don't know if they're over it now, but I don't think they're over it yet. Next year, they won't be. When the calendar flips to July 1st, they're going to fly over it. So next year, just so people know, SGA is 40, but then he goes to 60, 65, 70, 75. Chet and J-Dub both start five-year$239 million deals. They have Mitchell, who they re-signed at 3-3-3, the best contract in the league. They have Caruso at 19.5. It's unbelievable, that contract. They have team options for Hartenstein, Hartenstein, 29. They're under the aprons now.

54:36Bill Simmons:So they have team options for Hartenstein for 29, Dort for 18. They have to deal with Kaysom Wallace, whether you want to extend him or not, get him on a good deal. And then they have Joe and Wiggins and J-Will making a combined$30 million next year, plus Topic and Sorber making nine. Sorber is just a forgotten man, just another mid-first-round pick sitting there waiting to contribute next year. That they might, if they are really under the crunch, might have to use picks to try to get rid of. They have the 12th and 17th pick this year. They have a Clippers swap next year. They have a top five Denver first.

55:11Bill Simmons:They have a Dallas swap in 28. They have a Denver top five protected first in 29. And then they have their own first. What do we do to mark the moment when that Clippers swap is exercised and the Paul George trade ends? do we have a is it like when like the last episode of Seinfeld I was thinking like do you have like a clip show leading into the final episode and then a party after I was thinking like the last episode of the Sopranos like every podcast just goes blank when they're when they're talking about it and people think we're all dead I got a mailbag question wondering if they should um raise to the banners paul george and kawaii because of all the all the good stuff that that trade brought them why not not not the worst idea so all right so get creative i mean they can do they can i think the i think the number one need is shooting more than anything else and i don't know where they get it but i but yeah they can bundle a bunch of picks and move up in the draft they can bundle picks and players and try to get like a low price player and the chat one is chat one's tricky um and into jail and william i mean this was more or less a lost season for jail and williams like almost an entire like lost season um and now they're going to jump up and make all nba level money next year and that is a proven big three on a championship team we just saw it last year but it it um we just didn't see enough of it this year in terms of availability and like this this game tonight i just don't think we can talk enough about what just happened to chet holgram in this game like that was a disaster um and i'm just fascinated where he goes from here personally well and we've also seen a couple times in nba history where a guy had such a bad playoffs it followed him right it definitely affected dirt for a couple years there's no question um hey one of the famous celtics examples was antoine walker when kenny martin just destroyed him and i honestly felt like antoine walker was never the same after that second net series like kenny martin just took his lunch and then we mentioned drexler earlier as another one where Drexler was the second best player in the league in 92.

57:22Bill Simmons:The next year, I don't even think he made an all NBA team. Like between that and kind of being a backup on the dream team and getting his ass kicked by Jordan every day, like he just wasn't the same after that. So the question is, do you start to worry that that could be Chet? And then if I'm another team in the league, do I feel like this is my opportunity to try to go get Chet? And what is Chet? Like, what if, what am I getting in Chet? Because am I getting a guy who is this another, you know, it's hard for these big guys. where it's like we we're doing it with Mobley and Chet like oh they have this well-rounded game like maybe this is your they're gonna they're gonna develop into a 24 point a game score and the perimeter game is gonna come along and it's just it's hard and are you ever getting that guy or is he gonna be 19 a game second best defense player in the league reasonable three-point shooter I mean the the total vanishing of his three-point shot is astonishing inexplicable I think it was like one of the best things about his game and it's the thing that like yeah okay sure it's hard for you as a big man to a skinny big man to dribble against wings that are guarding you and get to your spot you're not an overpowering ball handler is going to back people down but that's the thing that should never go away no matter what no matter what or where or however you're going to get five open threes a game by spotting and it just he got i think he averaged less than two attempts per game and was completely invisible in the biggest game of of the year 27 from three in this series before tonight.

58:46Bill Simmons:What did he shoot tonight? Was it like one for two or something? Did he even take a three? He didn't shoot. Zero for zero. So you can just... Wow. So he finished 27%. Really odd. It's not the percentage. How many did he take? He took 11 threes in seven games. He passed up a couple too tonight that Jamal and Reggie called him out for right away. Like, wow, he's got it. Yeah. Like they were about as harsh on him during the broadcast as you hear announcers. The only one who will really do that is Van Gundy. But they were over and over again. Like, where's Chet? What's going on here? Why isn't he more impactful?

59:22Straight up was like, hello. Hello. Right. Like Ken Rich Williams attempted as many threes in the series as Chet did.

59:28Bill Simmons:But the other thing is, shouldn't he have, like if I had told you he's going to do zero threes in a game seven or 10, what number would you believe? I would have believed the 10 because it was like, oh, they're finally like, this is their strategy now to pull Wemby out. They went smaller with Chet at center and he's just going to shoot threes. But he just, I, as I said earlier, when he wasn't catching passes clean anymore, that's when, you know, you're in your head. when the ball handling pass catch stuff goes sideways so as long as they are is assuming we're both right that they're under the second apron for like the the next month like so let's just let's just do it then do you think chet plus you're gonna have to throw in someone else good you think let's i'll just make up a big train some of their extra picks no let's just go chet plus case and wallace plus sorber plus three unprotected first and three swaps including some of my swaps from other teams for Giannis.

1:00:25Do you think that's a good idea?

1:00:27Bill Simmons:I think that's way too much. I wouldn't have Wallace in it. I would have less picks and less swaps because who am I competing? Of course you would like to do that. I know, but who am I competing against for Giannis? I'm competing against Miami, who I can top any offer they have. And now Orlando, because we didn't talk about this, but they hired Sean Sweeney, the uh san antonio bench coach who spent what five years with the honest four years of the honest in in milwaukee and i think makes not the first person to make this point but i think that entered them into the honest chat for trades there's no question so it's like is paolo on the table for yannis is that even a possible trade i don't know you might be competing against that too sure i mean again they traded all their picks for desmond bain so i'm not sure how many sweeteners they can throw in there um but if i'm the bucks and i could get rid of yannis and just start over and have paolo as the centerpiece i'm i'm doing that but like but here like the thing about the thunders offer offers whatever you want to say compared to the heat or whoever you want to throw out there it's like at least if i'm milwaukee and i trade him to miami or i trade him to golden state or something like at least i'm getting picks where i have some expectation that um i can bet against that team being successful and some of these picks might end up being pretty valuable even with the lottery rules changing if i trade them to oklahoma city even if i like fleece oklahoma city they're just not is there's no world reasonable world that i can project where those picks are going to be any good and i'm probably not getting any of my own picks back which is another little side plot.

1:02:06I still kind of like the Jalen Brown to Portland, Giannis to Boston, a bonanza of picks, including Milwaukee's own picks that Portland's have coming back and young players coming back to Milwaukee. I kind of like that trade construction. I have no idea how interested anybody actually is in doing it, but I don't mind it.

1:02:23Bill Simmons:I keep saying it. I don't think Boston's in on Giannis. I mean, I certainly not sensed any great urgency from them to break up their team. I think the reason to trade Jalen would be to not want to have the two$70 million guys in two years or 65 or whatever it is. So to just flip him into somebody else who then is going to want an extension. That's the other thing with the honest. To me, it feels like a very un-OKC move. Like if we're really going to, like we've been with Presti now for 20 years. Presti is a huge chemistry guy. He's a huge, put personalities together, certain types. be patient.

1:03:02Bill Simmons:Even with that first OKC run, that was when you and I started working together and the Harden trade was a big trade for them because they couldn't afford them, even though I feel like they could have. But then you look at the next couple of years, remember how hesitant they were to do anything? And then that last year when they thought KD might be leaving, that was when they went over the tax and they made some big swing trades and did the Dion Waiters and a whole bunch of weird trades that they did. I think for the most part, he's pretty careful. The one time the Perkins, Jeff green trade, which feels like it was 700 years ago.

1:03:37Bill Simmons:Now is a little bit similar to this Chet situation. I think where it was like Jeff green, KD card in Westbrook. Those were like, they're four guys. Oh, they'll never trade. And then all of a sudden he did it. He traded Jeff green. Cause he needed his center. And that would be like, so we know he can be cutthroat if he needs to be. Chet is now an all-star and an all NBA level player. This is just a completely different conversation. I mean, there was also the Ibaka trade, which was, you know, like when they got Oladipo. Yeah, it's a bigger situation because you're going to get a better player back than Kendrick Perkins.

1:04:12But the other thing is like Giannis plus J-Dub plus Shea, like the financial, I'm not solving any financial issues with that kind of trade. In fact, I'm just I'm getting even more expensive.

1:04:23Bill Simmons:I don't see I don't see them doing and messing with, you know, now you got the brothers there. and it doesn't feel like an OKC move. I would say the move would be, hey, we should have won and Jalen Williams got hurt and you talk yourself into that world and you don't do anything. But the question is, is Cech going to do the Dirk Australia? We don't see him again for four months because he's going to take a ton of shit all week. I mean, and look, I don't love piling on. That was dumbfounding. Like the whole series was dumbfounding. He had a couple moments in game five and six where he seemed to like crash the offensive glass, had a couple of nice takes against Vassell.

1:04:58whatever this was a just a dumbfounding game and in a game where they the the need for anyone to produce offensively other than Shea was never more glaring than in this game and he just didn't

1:05:12Bill Simmons:do anything wow 32 minutes one for two like you almost looks like it's like the James Harden 2021 Brooklyn game seven box score when he was on one leg well and you're like oh yeah he was hurt but Chet was healthy for this game. The last two things I remember him doing on offense, you know, he had that nice block on Dylan Harper, were dropping an entry pass. Now he recovered it, but it took the... He, like, cut into the middle of the floor, Shea passed it to him, and he dropped it, and it disrupted the whole rhythm. And then he tried to drive on Victor, and you could hear the broadcast gearing up, like, hey, here he goes, he's going to...

1:05:48And then he just, like, fell over. And, like, I couldn't even see him on the floor. And, like, those are my last two memories of Chet Holmgren on offense.

1:05:55Bill Simmons:Yeah, it does have shades of that Jordan Drexler thing, but more like it's almost like a boxing thing or like what happened with Ronda Rousey when she was just, you know, beating everybody, making everyone submit. And then all of a sudden she fought Holly Holm, got knocked out and like lost her mojo and like kind of never got it back. She ended up losing again. And that's why what I'm rooting for is come back for vengeance, because the end of Ronda Rousey was not that fight. It was the next fight against Amanda Nunes. Oh, look at Zach talking UFC. This is so exciting. When it was very clear that she was broken as a fighter and would never be repaired.

1:06:33Wow, this is amazing. Let's dig out of it. Come back. Everyone should be fucking pissed off. No, we're not ready to pass the torch. We want to go at that guy. We want to do it together. I'm going to learn from this experience. This was my low point. I'm coming back next year, Jalen Williams. Got to be so frustrated that he just lost an entire season. lost an entire Western Conference finals other than a few minutes here and there where he didn't do much. And just like, go back at him next year. Glad you brought that up.

1:07:03Bill Simmons:What happened to Jalen Williams? He played, I have it in my notes. He played last year, he played over 3 ,000 minutes. Right? Regular season and playoffs. This year he played 1 ,000. I know he got hurt. I'm asking you, how do we end up with him playing a thousand minutes this year where it wasn't like a knee injury or torn MCL or like, this is just like a hamstring injury that he just kept having for eight months. Like what the fuck? Well, it happens. I mean, we, it, it happens. And obviously everyone is a lot more cognizant of like, if we, if we push this too far, real bad stuff can happen. Now, hamstring Achilles, it's not the same, but they didn't push it far at all.

1:07:46Bill Simmons:I mean, if anything, they push, they unpushed it because they were just hoping he could be healthy for basically two rounds and he couldn't even do that he had a wrist injury too that messed up his uh his his his like uh pattern in the middle of the season but yeah i mean look it just he got hurt and every time he played he would get hurt and he would feel it i mean it wasn't subtle he would come off the court grabbing his left hamstring like something isn't right there and it was causing pain and discomfort and it wasn't getting any better and look he played 37 minutes in game one and I thought he played quite well and that game you've talked about a lot like took took like there was punishment from that game like there was there were lasting effects that both teams had to deal with and overcome from that from that crazy maybe that was their tactical mistake was unleashing him too much in that game because that game it's weird because this wasn't a great series but it had in all-time game one and a really good game seven and then everything in the middle we're never going to remember i mean and i think like we have short memories and you and i were arguing about this a little bit before the series where you said chet's the second best player on the thunder i was like i all due respect like i like i think we're about to be reminded of what jalen williams is and then he we were and then he was gone like that guy's fucking awesome that guy showed out in the finals last year in a seven game finals he's a six eight monster wing you can do everything like he's he's and like isn't this as a neutral fan what you want like get the gang back together and take a shot at like isn't that more fun than panic trade for Giannis and all the gang's not gonna be back together though well the core gang like the main part of the gang like the side characters might change but like the main part of the gang that's more fun to me as a neutral fan than panic trade for Giannis we get way older so different we disrupt don't we want I would not panic trade for Giannis don't we want continuity don't we want to watch great teams the core of great teams not the top eight or top nine but like the core of great teams.

1:09:43Don't we want them to stay together and grow together? Isn't that what we want as fans? Don't we want them to come back and try to avenge this? That's what I want.

1:09:51Bill Simmons:Guy by the name of Magic Johnson. You might've heard from him or might've heard of him. 1984 finals sucked. Got the nickname Tragic Johnson. Guess what? He was fine. That would be what I told Chet. I'd press he's going to take them out. They'll go get an ice cream cone in downtown Oklahoma City. And I'll be like, have you ever heard of the Magic Johnson story? 84 finals rock bottom came back ended up winning three MVPs and three titles that could be us Chet no he'll bust the Pressy will bust out an obscure 80s hip hop song rap song where he's like you're gonna like the lyrics to this this is gonna speak to you yeah just think about this later can you be Joe Dumars for a second New Orleans general manager and I'll be I need another phone I need another phone I'm Sam Pressy calling you Hello?

1:10:42Bill Simmons:Hey, Joe. I've got... I already threw the phone to Troy Weaver. I already just threw my phone. I'm scared. I threw my phone to Troy. Troy! I have Lou Dortz expiring. I'm going to pick that up, the team option. I could pick up the Hartenstein team option for 29. I've got Aaron Wiggins to offer you. I have the 12th pick in the draft and the 17th pick. What else do I need to just get you to trade Trey Murphy to me? Sorry, the phone went. The phone, our landlines are out. There was a power outage. We didn't know. So no, like give me the package again. Hartenstein 12, 17. I'll give you 12 and 17. I will give you Hartenstein and Dort on expirings.

1:11:29Bill Simmons:And I'll take back Jordan Poole in the Murphy trade. I'll take back Jordan Poole's expiring. You'll take back Jordan Poole now. I'm paying attention. I will. So you give me Poole and Murphy. I'll give you 12 and 17. I'll give you the Hartenstein expiring, Ndort expiring. I'll take Jordan Poole for a year as an expiring contract. So now I have eight centers on my team that I got to figure out how to play together? Yeah. Also, instead of Hartenstein, you can keep Jordan Poole throwing Wiggins instead. I need another pick or a swap that's actually good. How about Topic? Have you seen him? Do you see him in Garverstein?

1:12:03I have.

1:12:04Bill Simmons:Any interest? No. I mean, for me, New Orleans, no. He's fine. I need to see more of him. I need another pick or a swap. What if Dumars says back, is AJ Mitchell on the table?

1:12:18That's what I would say back. Three million a year. I'm interested. How badly do you want to win the title? You got a window with these three guys. How badly do you want to win the title, Sam?

1:12:30Bill Simmons:AJ Mitchell, 12th, maybe 17th pick in a contract. Yeah, there's something there. To me, that's the move because I'm tired. If I'm them, I'm tired of not quite having enough three-point shooting. You know what I mean? I do. And that's a very intriguing trade. Also, I have to trade for him before somebody else does, like the Celtics. And the thing everyone's around the league, I don't know Troy Weaver at all, but the thing everyone around the league who talks to Troy Weaver, who talks to him says is like, he's always got a guy or two in the draft that he really, really wants, that he just loves and he has to have.

1:13:06we saw with queen and maybe if there's somebody in that range that 12 or 17 helps him get maybe in any year where they you know traded their pick obviously maybe he'd be amenable mccain

1:13:20Bill Simmons:i thought i loved how he played in the playoffs i'm on the record when philly drafted mccain i went nuts that was my favorite i watched him in la i've just always liked him i think he proved that he's a guy that can be out there for them in a real way and i wonder with sga mitchell and McCain. Could you turn one of those last two pieces into something with Murphy? It would be interesting. A couple of things before we go. Just a couple of mailbag questions, basically tied to what we just watched. I had a whole thing on the pod the other day about if they had flopping penalties like they used to with flagrant fouls.

1:14:00I saw this.

1:14:03Bill Simmons:ben from dc said you missed the best part about your flopping point system the leaderboard they'd publish the leaderboard every week and it would be like shameful to be like the number one in flop points it would just be good so good one i love that i mean look look teams do that with their like hustle boards right and they track it in practice charges taken hustle this hustle that and like if you're at the bottom of the hustle boards like there your name's at the bottom there There you go. It's like being in the bottom in the barrel speed one in baseball. Like Caleb Durbin for the Red Sox. He's like in the bottom 5 % of barrel speed.

1:14:36I love all these stats. When you know you're not doing great.

1:14:40Bill Simmons:Tyler in Portland, I had a whole thing about all the losers from the Knicks Cavs series, and he wanted to know why Tom Thibodeau wasn't one of the biggest losers out of how this has played out with the Knicks. And he said the second biggest loser were the seven remaining Tib stands. I just thought that was really mean. You just want to throw a spotlight on his cruelty? Let's platform his cruelty. Do you feel like Tibbs was a loser for how this has turned out for the Knicks? Or did circumstance and health make this a better situation this year for the Knicks? If Tibbs is the coach, are the Knicks in the finals?

1:15:18I don't think so.

1:15:18Bill Simmons:I don't think so either. But I also don't think that he's a loser in this situation. I'm sure it eats at his craw a little bit or whatever the right terminology is to see this happen. But I also I'm sure he's happy for a lot of the people that are there that were with him. I'm sure it's an interesting, emotional time frame, but I don't consider him a loser. I would flip it around and say, how about Mike Brown is a winner? He did a great job with the Knicks. He played the long game. He pushed all the right buttons. He was a good hire, even though he was like their 17th choice, apparently, for the job.

1:15:49Bill Simmons:I like that. But this episode is brought to you by Expedia. Family vacations are the absolute best. I think my favorite place that I've been to a bunch of times with my family is Hawaii, a place that we could not go to when I lived on the East Coast because it was too far away and we went to the West Coast. And now it's like just close enough. Really fun. Sun's out every day. Nice hot sun. Just happy. Get to eat fish. But listen, when you're booking a family vacation and you're quartering everyone's calendars and agreeing where to go and snagging deals before it's too late. Yeah, there's some part about traveling that's not great, which is why Expedia's bundle and save feature is a total game changer.

1:16:30Bill Simmons:It combines flights, hotels, and cars into one package for impressive discounts. And there's no pressure to decide everything at once because as a member, you can book one part of your trip first and add more right up until your last day of travel. Planning your vacation just got a whole lot more relaxing. Book now with Expedia. This episode is brought to you by America's cookout classics, Heinz, Kraft, and Oscar Mayer. This summer, we're celebrating 250 years of America cookouts with all the classics, Heinz, Kraft, and Oscar Mayer. I love hot dogs. Anytime it's a cookout, you have to have multiple kinds of hot dogs.

1:17:06Bill Simmons:I need a different kind of food. Like some people like the burgers and the turkey burgers. gotta have the right playlist in place gotta grill some vegetables but for the most part you really need the hot dogs and I need multiple types of mustard too make sure to top the burger with only the best Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles I'm a ketchup and burgers guy dress up your sides to impress all summer long with Kraft Real Mayo and Kraft dressing no matter how you cook out you'll find the same favorites on every table Heinz, Kraft, and Oscar Mayer shop at your local retailer so Clark from Rockford Illinois wants to know did all the negative national discourse on OKC's flopping tweak how SGA played a little bit over the course of this series in a negative way I actually thought a little bit about that because they're so buttoned up of like well the noise doesn't affect us we don't care about the noise we don't care about the officials we don't care about the media we don't care what's being said they must be aware on some level like I think the tipping point for me was, what was it?

1:18:12Underdog Sports made the fake operation game, and then they got a cease and desist letter from Shane's attorneys or something like that. It was like, okay, I wonder if this just is this shrieking noise is in his head at all. But then he goes out and shows out like that in game seven. And I think the thing that really bothered him was Victor Wembenyama. I actually don't, I probably don't think the flopping thing bothered him.

1:18:35Bill Simmons:Sam from Austin said on the Zach Lowe Show, good podcast, after game six, Zach talked about how the Spurs play a one-man zone with Wemby roaming the paint while everyone else is locked up man-to-man. Goldsberry asked if Zach had coined that term and encouraged him to take credit for it. Sam thinks it should be called the Unboxing One. I do feel like it should have a name, but I was thinking maybe it's like the Alien Box or the Boxing Alien, something like that. I'll workshop some stuff in my head. Now that I know there's a groundswell of interest. There's a groundswell. People like the box in one.

1:19:11Bill Simmons:I, by the way, have always loved the box in one. I've always loved variations of it. It's the two things I've never understood with basketball are why don't more teams play box in one and why don't more teams press? Like, if I was OKC, every time Fox was out, I would have pressed. Because I think he... Castle, I like. I don't think he's a point guard. I think he was dying to give up the ball, and I don't know why they didn't just go 94 feet with him and Kaysom Wallace. I'm just so charmed by this that you i mean we're we're we're almost 30 years into this and you're just not giving up the full court press you just i love the you're enamored with like someone's got to do it someone's got to really make it part of their i mean the pacers kind of came closest for you last year of doing it the celtics were doing a little this year but i thought okc wallace was playing 22 23 minutes a game and i don't know if if he's out there i'm like hey when you're out there you're just going 94 feet with everybody.

1:20:09Bill Simmons:They couldn't really do it with Caruso. I'm just going to say this. I mean, if you want to implement these kinds of tactics that may or may not work, but that are certainly unconventional, I think you're going to have to suck it up and try to get the GM job for the Sacramento Kings because your owner is the guy who suggested that his coach play four on five defense and cherry pick. And if like, if that's available, you can go to the owner and say here in the job interview, here are some crazy things I want to try. You're going to think I'm crazy, but these are going to work. He's the right audience.

1:20:41Maybe this is your destiny.

1:20:42Bill Simmons:You can save the Kings. 8-12, we're going to press for five minutes a half. Maxine Reynaud is going to be a full-court press center for us. We're doing it. Vivek is a gullible guy because Vlade Divac looked him in the eye and said, we already have Darren Fox. Luka's a big market superstar. He's not going to want to stay here. And Vivek's like, You're probably right. Let's take Marvin Bagley. I signed off. So if he signed off on Marvin Bagley over Luca, I think he would sign off on my press idea. This is, and then you, but then you have carte blanche. You're what's working against you is you did not play for the Sacramento Kings in the early two thousands.

1:21:18That would have been a big leg up for you in this, in this race.

1:21:21Bill Simmons:But alas, I would have started smoking again too. I got a bunch of emails today. Are you a soccer guy or now? I'm ready for the world cup. I don't know. I watched the final. Do you follow what happened today? I saw the penalty kicks. That's all. So PSG won for the second year in a row. And I got a million emails about this, about how Mbappe. Mbappe. Mbappe. I always screwed up. My speech dyslexia. He doesn't play for them anymore. No, but he left and they've won two titles in a row. And people are wondering. It's gone further than that. It's like, A, is this the best Ewing theory ever? And B, should we just change the name?

1:21:58Bill Simmons:We're never changing the name. but I can't think of a better Ewing theory than this of going all in on a guy, the guy leaves and then they immediately win two titles without him when he's considered to be one of the best players in the world. His first name is Killian, right? Killian Mbappe. I feel like that gives you a lot of pun potential for like you don't even have to name it. You have Kill sitting there in the first part of his name but he plays for Real Madrid. I assume they're good and he's still very good. Not as good as you'd think. I had a mailbag thing about a single shot swinging a series.

1:22:39Bill Simmons:How few times that's actually happened. Most famously, Ray Allen. Joshua M. wanted to know why didn't I mention John Starks, his miss in game six in 1994. A couple of people have wondered about this. Why doesn't that get better PR as a do or die? We could have won the title if that went in. Listen, I watched a lot of basketball back then. There was no way that John Stark shot was going in. I never thought it was going in. And by the way, it was hotly contested by Hakeem Olajuwon, one of the best 15 players of all time. I think there's a fingernail on that shot. And there might have been a fingernail on it.

1:23:19Bill Simmons:But I just don't think that shot was going in. I know it's like you could say, oh, if he had made that, but I just, I don't know. So the interesting thing about that shot is they're down two, I believe, the Knicks. So that's a shot. They're playing for the win. But Ewing has always contended. I was rolling to the rim wide open at the nail and John had a passing lane to me and he didn't make it. And Starks has always said there was just so little time on the clock that I wasn't sure I had time to pass it. You would have time to gather it and shoot it. But Ewing, as always said, if he had passed it to me, we're going to overtime.

1:23:53I'm making a little eight-footer. We're going to overtime.

1:23:55Bill Simmons:Well, he did miss that little eight-footer the next year. Jack from Chicago wants to know if we could see with these new tanking rules a spite tank of somebody who somebody else has their pick. Like the Nets could be an example, right? The Rockets control the Nets' 2027 pick. And the Nets could be like, fuck it. We don't care if we're one of the worst three teams. We don't even have our pick. How about we relegate you? And they just kind of spite tank it. How about we relegate you? Watch this, Rockets. And they just play five point guards for the last 10 games of the season. And it's like Silver's worst nightmare.

1:24:30Bill Simmons:I didn't think of that. Do you think of that variable? Yeah, it's come up. I've seen people talk about it as one of the potential ripple effects of this sweeping change that everyone is still trying to grapple with, including what they've done to the second round, which I did not even realize was in the proposal until... That was like they had a couple shots and just got drunk. And they were like, wait, did we change the second round last night too? I don't remember. I passed out. We can do anything. Once they've gone for this, we can do anything. How about we make the second round of like we can do anything we want.

1:25:00Bill Simmons:Because there's some drafts where if you have 16 and 31, it's almost better than having like six, right? Those deeper drafts where after the top five, you just want to like throw darts against the dartboard. Rob H. had another one on this. Would this weird new rule lead to somebody trying to accumulate a bunch of picks in one draft to have the most possibilities basically stack a draft? Like when Houston and Brooklyn made that weird trade when Brooklyn wanted their picks back and they did and could we see something like that where, I don't know, the Spurs have a 29 pick but they have... three 28 picks and they're like you know what let's trade our 29 pick for another 28 pick and try to have four of these sure why not i don't know i mean no one knows yet but yeah that's not a bad theory i like that it could be weird yeah the biggest question i've gotten over and over again is why would i want to be the playing 10 the 10 seed trying to win two playing games so i can get destroyed by san antonio next year why wouldn't i want to actually could this lead to higher level tanking basically we're like yeah i don't i don't want to be the 10th seed uh i don't i i think i mean there's two directions that flows in right there's the team that's 12th and is four games out of the 10th seed and do they go all out to try to get it i i could see that team currently already i could see that team under any rule system you have having some thoughts having some thoughts about it.

1:26:37But the other... Be irresponsible. The other one where I'm eighth and I'm like, I'd really like to be 11th. I just can't see a team doing that to its fans, especially since a lot of the teams in that spot are younger teams who really, I think, could use and value the experience. And like, look, we saw Orlando get in. We've seen play-in teams have real success and get to the finals in Miami and Orlando, took Detroit to seven.

1:27:02Bill Simmons:Counter. Golden State, do they give a shit about March and April after Jimmy Butler's injury? If they have this new lottery system in place, I don't think they do. I think they're saying Curry's fine. You're sitting out. Don't try to come back. We're going for it next year. We just lost our second best player. And then you're just trying to get in that four to 10 range. I guess, but like they have Steph Curry and they've always been honorable, but having Steph Curry on their team, even this year, and they gave you, I think you're maybe your favorite moment of maybe top five moment for you of this NBA season was that Warriors-Clippers playing game.

1:27:37Bill Simmons:Top three. Top three easily. You were so delighted. Leo from Indianapolis wants to know if Halliburton doesn't tear his Achilles in game seven and then they win the best finals of all time, what did the rest of the decade look like for the Pacers? Would it have been a fluke or would it have just kept going? So no Halliburton injury. And they win the title? They win the title. They lose Turner. Is it just like a one-year fluke like Leicester City basically in the Premier League. I don't think you lose Turner if you win the title. You think they wanted to keep Turner at that price? I think if Halliburton's healthy and you win the title.

1:28:12Turner comes back? Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the reasons they punted on Turner was next year is a loss for us anyway. It might as well just save some money. Halliburton's hurt. He's out for the year.

1:28:20Bill Simmons:It's an underrated what if. I just think as a fan, I still and will forever feel just so robbed of what that game was shaping up to be. Because we could even add what we had. yeah even what we had tonight could have been at that level um john and did you see shea by the way said before this game today it was the biggest game of his career i did it's like you played in finals game seven how was that not you're not ever playing in a bigger game but i wonder if he just in his memory now that game even like that game is so weird to look back on like i wonder if he can even conjure what it felt like before tyree saliburton tore his achilles if he can even bring himself back to what that what the stakes were because then that injury happens and it's like I just felt like I was in a haze for three hours and not even paying attention to the game because you knew what was going to happen I mean that's almost a good one to end on but I am going to end on this okay Mason from Seattle sent this before game seven I feel the exact same way about AI as I do about Wemby.

1:29:29Bill Simmons:He's a foreign, unknown technology that's arrived to dominate our world for the future. And there's nothing any of us can do about it. I felt genuine dread after watching game one, the same dread I feel when I think about how AI is eventually going to take my job in a year. That's pretty dark. But the only reason I wanted to mention that email is that's how astonishing this postseason has been that we have seemingly normal people sending mailbag emails can comparing wimby to the the most uh generation changing technology we've created since the internet i wish i could remember who it was who summed it up i don't even think like that's a that's a dark that's a dark version of a thought pattern that i don't think is like fringe fringe um i think it was harrison feigen who's a lakers blogger but i might be miscrediting somebody after game one somebody tweeted um wemby is the first player i've ever watched in my life where i thought maybe they might actually have to change the rules for this guy and i think that like that tweet like got some traction because i do think you watch it and you're like is this a wilt thing where like fundamental things about the geometry of the court are going to have to change like i because when in his best games where it just feels so hopeless to ever do anything near the basket i think those thoughts could reasonably like creep into your mind i love how much he cares i love how he reacted after the game um we'll see how he reacts if they actually win the finals but the mountain that they climbed.

1:31:10Bill Simmons:And you know, the more we're talking and think about it, you're OKC, you have that semi-magical year last year, but the game seven was pretty weird with the Halliburton injury. Like it was just a weird way to win the title, but you're taking any title you get. But now you think they start out the way they did this year and it's like, holy shit. Oh my God, what are we going to do? And now the, oh my God, what are we going to do? has just shifted to Wemby and away from OKC, which to me is the most, it's even more stunning than San Antonio being in the finals. That the what are we going to do has just shifted teams in real time.

1:31:47And I think the other 28 teams are still like, what are we going to do about OKC when they get healthy and they make whatever moves they're going to make? And I think that's the ultimate compliment is these two teams are going to be staring at each other one way or another. And they're the ultimate measuring stick. And I think that's why one of the reasons why, if you want to psychoanalyze it, why Shea would call that the biggest game of his career, why Wemby would weep after it, because they both have so much respect for the other team that they know what the challenge is.

1:32:13Bill Simmons:Yeah. Well, there's four guys in this draft that levitate above everybody else. The order has been in great debate. There's a chance Peterson could get to four. As crazy as that sounds. I know you've been doing some stealth. How are we talking about the draft? Where are you going with this? Because I wonder, like, with Chicago at four, would OKC, would that be the power move that we talked about earlier? Like, what would they do move? Maybe they just go all in and try to get one of those four guys. If I'm a team, try to keep keep their nucleus in place. I've done my I've done my just enough to be dangerous YouTubing of those four guys.

1:32:51Yeah. If I'm Chicago, I'm just not even picking up the calls. I mean, you got to really do some crazy ass stuff to make me just not be psyched to take whichever one of the four falls into my lap.

1:33:02Bill Simmons:But that could be, that's the opportunity for OKC though, to be like, we're overwhelming you with a stupid offer. But I'm not even know. I don't know. You hear those stories about when people don't want to leave their house and somebody knocks on their door and is like, I want to buy your house. It's not for sale. Here's the offer. And like, whoa, I guess I'm moving. I mean, that would be what you have to do. The overwhelming thing is they have some Denver swaps, a Clippers pick, a Clippers swap, their own picks. They could throw 10 first-round picks at me. If I add them all up, are they as valuable as one of these four guys?

1:33:35What if I put Shett in the table? I just want to start over, man. Just let me start over. Benny the Bull just wants to start over.

1:33:45Bill Simmons:You've talked me into it for Chicago, but also for OKC. okay i think the move is deep breath that san antonio team is awesome that's going to be the team we battle for the rest of the decade and i just i guess if you if you offer me 10 first round picks in chet home grin i guess i just have to do it i mean i don't know i uh but then if you're oklahoma city you're out that's it you gave everything for you know what the you know what the example is? It's when, uh, Kawhi wanted to play with Paul George, right? Ironically. And what did Preston do? He said, well, I don't want to trade Paul George. And they're like, what about how, what would it take to trade him?

1:34:29Bill Simmons:And he's like, uh, four first three swaps. And then you have to give me SGA. And they're like, well, we can't give you SGA. And he's like, well, that's what it would take. And he just kind of ground them down. Maybe that's what one of these teams in the top four would have to do. They also got to figure out what Wallace is worth is the other thing, which we didn't talk about. Do you do an extension with him or roll the dice with him as heading toward a restricted? What's his price? Is he in the$25 million range? Probably. If you're his agent, you're at the very least throwing around Christian Brown, Jalen Suggs types.

1:35:04You're mailing the Christian

1:35:06Bill Simmons:Brown contract to them. well no i'm like this guy's what christian brown got our guy's better than this guy yeah exactly um yeah oh i'll leave you with this why does denver have to trade anybody to sign peyton watson fuck off you have yokich on your team dickheads pay everybody clip this out denver fans clip this out kronky's got a kajillion dollars just pay peyton watson and keep everyone else on your team because your owner is super rich how much did arsenal what are we doing just just for making the Champions League final. That must make gargantuan amounts. Yeah, definitely. They own Arsenal, right?

1:35:43Bill Simmons:Yeah. Joker was there supporting Arsenal. Yeah. With at least one of his brother. All right, Zach Lowe, what's your podcast schedule this week? I think we are going to record Monday night. So I'm going to San Antonio for game one of the finals, at least, and flying Monday. Tuesday, there's going to be some interesting podcast stuff happening that the NBA is organizing that I don't know if I should really say anything but now I've said something uh but so I don't know how that's going to work exactly but so I'm going to do a traditional episode where I just do a deep dive finals preview I've watched my film I've got my notes I'm ready to go I'm going to make my pick so I don't come out either Monday night or overnight into Tuesday morning like usual and they'll have some fun in San Antonio hopefully see a great game and hopefully we get a great finals and boy the Knicks and the Spurs alright so I'm going to be I'm coming back with my pod on Tuesday we have tomorrow rewatchables which usually runs Monday night we are running it tomorrow night because I'm not going to have my podcast because we did this and we did 2001 a space odyssey and it's one of the best episodes we've ever done without spoiling what happens I would highly encourage people to check this one out Zach Lowe I don't know when I'm going to see you again because this final schedule is weird, but I'll see you after one of these games.

1:36:59Bill Simmons:Yeah, we'll figure it out. I'll see you after probably game three, but we'll talk about it this week. State travels in San Antonio. You won't see me after game six in New York City. That's the one thing I can guarantee. Well, I'm going to say goodbye to you before game six in New York City in case that's the last time. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Chris and everybody else at the ringer. And I will see you on this feed on Tuesday. Thanks.

1:37:23Bill Simmons:Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-79-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 seven support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867.

1:38:04Turn it up.

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