Embiid’s Return, Houston’s Weird Weekend, Joker’s Swoon, and a Knicks Gut Check With Zach Lowe

22:50Bill Simmons:It was Kobe's 81-point game, but he only had 32 points. They're 24-1 when he scores 25-plus points. That's not where I'm going to start. We finished. We taped a big chunk of this pod right before the Celtics-Sixers game because there was a window. We wanted to get stuff done so we could get it up faster. We came out of the room, and the game had started, and I saw Embiid on the court. and as a Celtic fan, I was like, oh my God, this is great. I was excited that he was playing. Wow. No reflection on Embiid as a player. I just think to introduce him into the series halfway through when he hasn't played, when he's rusty, combined with how good I thought the Sixers played on Friday night, and I really thought they found something with the smaller lineups and the defensive identity they had.

23:40Bill Simmons:I thought the Celtics really pulled it out of their ass in that game. They had to make a couple of huge shots Philly easily could have won it. I thought Maxie was really comfortable attacking them. And you could just feel it today. I thought Embiid, by no fault of his own, completely discombobulated them. And he was minus 25, and it felt that way. Yeah, I honestly, I'm surprised he came back. I just did. I mean, it's appendicitis or whatever it is. It's a big deal. And he came back pretty early from it. I thought he looked pretty good, all things considered. Sure. But, you know, earlier this season, he wasn't dunking at all.

24:16And he had an explosive dunk. He had a couple of explosive defensive rotations. All of his pet shots seemed to just roll around and go out or rattle in and out. Like, just so close but not going in. And, yeah, you're right that they had, you know, I thought, it's funny. I watched game three and then I checked the box score the next morning. Maxie was 12 for 31, I think. And it did not, it felt much more efficient than that to me. because I just felt like the Celtics toggled between a bunch of different pick and roll coverages over the courses of game two and three. And he figured out a way to kind of solve all of them in different ways, getting to the rim, pulling up for three, passing.

24:54And it felt like an even better game than 12 for 31 to me. And because that game three felt scary for Boston. It felt very winnable for Philly. And Pritchard made a huge three. Tatum made a tough three. Like, it was a tough, tough game. This was never a tough game. And when the Celtics make threes like this, they're very hard to beat. The problem, and this is almost like a basketball IQ test,

25:18Bill Simmons:because, yeah, he had points, he had good stats. But defensively, he really hurts them against Boston because it's just you can always pull him into screens and stuff and get threes that you want. The offensive rebounding, I think, is a problem when he's out there. And I just think they seem way slower and more kind of lumbering. versus the team Friday night. I thought the Celtics were really lucky to win Friday night. And if Embiid didn't play today, I genuinely felt like the Celtics might lose tonight unless they had like a Pritchard game or something like that. The thing is Pritchard hadn't done that yet.

25:53Bill Simmons:And he's usually good for that once or twice a series. But I don't know. I just thought it screwed them up a little bit. Like Oubre, I don't think made a field goal. I thought Maxey, it felt like it took him an hour just to be like, hey, is it okay if I can run some of the offense too? And they were just constantly trying to work him in. I also thought Bona, I thought the Bona-Drumman combo was fairly effective. And I thought Paul George has been really good for him all series. I think he's gone toe-to-toe with Brown and Tatum in a lot of ways. And if there's a bright spot for the Sixers in this series, it's that I think they've resuscitated him as like, I don't think he's untradeable.

26:35I mean he had a huge second half uh of game three and tonight um he was you know 16 points on 6 to 13 but made all his threes he had a couple takes against Jalen Brown like he had an iso against Jalen Brown where he kind of bullied him and and shoved him toward the basket later it was like oh he's been settling for tough fadeaways a lot and the Celtics will live with that even if it's over Derek White or like on a switch against Peyton Pritchard they're fine with that they're not going to double him but that one was like whoa that's that looked like Paul George right there

27:05Bill Simmons:I thought his defense was good too for the most part, especially in the first half I think he's been resuscitated as, it's not inconceivable that you could get rid of him though that's a great feeling, right? he's playing well, now we can trade him this is like we can't even enjoy him playing well it's already, we're just like he's playing well, great, call somebody that's that's kind of how you have to think that when you have him and Embiid, right? You have$110 million of guys that you don't know how reliable they're going to be. So would you have sat Embiid? Would you have just said, you know what, you're just out for the series?

27:44I wouldn't have played him tonight.

27:46Bill Simmons:I would have waited for him for game five. And I wanted to, I would have, I personally would have waited for game four because I would have been really, really encouraged by how my team looked in game three. Especially because like Edgecombe, his threes now and the three losses, he's 0 for 6. from three, right? He couldn't hit a three on Friday and they were still in that game. I don't know. I just, I thought going smaller against the Celtics was really working in their favor because the Celtics were in the city. They played Vooch like 30 plus minutes in game three. A lot of Vooch. I didn't really love 15 minutes of Vooch much such 30 in that game.

28:24Bill Simmons:And I thought over and over again, they were using and abusing him in the screens and getting threes over him and just figuring out ways to take advantage of him being out there. He's just too slow coming out on the screens. But with Embiid out there, all of a sudden now, the Celtics could just play all their centers, get a lot of, you know, they have 18 fouls with those three guys. Even when Garza was out there, it's like Garza's going to shoot over Embiid every time he gets it, which I think he did once. Made one three. Yeah, I know. They're not going to say Embiid don't play, but I wonder if he gave Nick Nurse true serum.

28:56Bill Simmons:Would he have been happy with it? So like your game plan would have been, let's wait till our backs are against the wall if we lose and it's 3-1 then all bets are off wild card bring them out but let's give this current team tonight to try to even up this series after their performance i get i get that i just think the the the uh the mileage on the maxi do everything offense is is just going to expire against a really good team and they just needed another layer of offense, but integrating that other layer was a little, you know, slipshod for parts, a little wonky for parts of today. So in the Friday game, the Celtics were 44 % shooting and 43 % from three.

29:44That's pretty good.

29:46Bill Simmons:Yeah. Today they made 24 threes. That's a lot. 45%. and I actually thought I thought they got great shots the entire game it was actually one of those games they scored 128 they easily could add 150 like they missed a bunch of free throws in the first half the Jays were terrible in the first half and then the third quarter just became the Jays and I thought really complement each other well and then you know Pritchard who's in the running for weirdest career of the decade where he plays four solid years where I don't even think he averaged eight points a game, maybe like eight and a half. He wanted to be traded, remember?

30:28Bill Simmons:Yeah. And I got to say, a lot of the Celtic fans were like, this guy's good. When this guy plays, he's going to be good if he can ever get a chance. He just, he's always buried behind guards. Last year, sixth man of the year. This year, averaging 17 a game. And it's just perfect for the team they have because they do so much of this one-on-one attack stuff. And he's really great at it. He's really like, you saw the whole tricks and everything today, plus Reggie Miller's there. They're going to have to redo his contract this summer, I think. And I actually think they're allowed to extend it, but he's, I think, one of the best contracts in the league, if not the best.

31:08Bill Simmons:$7 million a year, right? It looks like according to Spotrack or Spatrack or whoever you say it, he is extension eligible this summer. Yeah, he's got two more guaranteed years after this. at 7.7 and 8.3. I'd have to look back and re-familiarize myself with how much they're allowed to add on the extension with the percentages. It's probably one of those ones where it's like, it might not even be worth it for him to do it. Austin Reeves style, better off to wait. But I also think he wants to stay in Boston. They're going to have an interesting offseason no matter what happens. They've got money to spend.

31:44Bill Simmons:They have trade exceptions. He's just a really good player. I remember I picked him as six-man-a-deer last year. There was a Malik Beasley, Peyton Pritchard kind of debate, and I was just like, he's just a better basketball player than Malik Beasley. He defends, he passes, he's tough, he's physical, he can score in different kinds. He's just a really good player. Offensive rebounding, he'll sneak in and see, wow, Peyton Pritchard has four offensive rebounds today. I sadly took Beasley. I think I was trying too hard not to be a homer and swung too far the other way with Beasley. So the other thing, I don't want to talk about Tatum every podcast, even though I secretly do.

32:24Bill Simmons:Yeah, as you say, yeah, you do. He's just, I just can't believe how good he looks on some of these drives. First of all, he played 42 minutes on Friday, which is nuts. If you had told me two months ago, hey, in game three, Jason Tatum will play 42 minutes in a regular playoff game. Like, well, that sounds insane. We're going to do that. Definitely did it. he was explosive. His three-point looks great now. Like, he's got a nice snap on it. And it's interesting. He's getting better. Jalen seems like he's having a harder time getting to his spots than he's had all season. And I don't know if it's because Philly has him scouted really well, but this is a guy who was scoring on, like, pretty easily on people like Lou Dort during the season.

33:09Bill Simmons:In this Philly series, it's just a lot of, like, Like, it feels like he's like a battering ram trying to just, like, get to his spots and bang into people and swing his arms. Like, he got, I think he had two offensive fouls today, but it just, either they're scouting him great or he's starting to wear down. But that worried me a little bit. I'm not worried. Okay. I'm just, I mean, it's, they're clearly a better basketball team with the two of them. It's going to go up and down a little bit about who scores the most points, who has the ball the most, all that kind of stuff. there's been games like where Jalen, I thought, I can't remember which game it was, but there was one game where they started hunting.

33:49They're hunting Maxie all the time, but they down the stretch, they made it clear like Jalen, you're going to be the guy to hunt Maxie because you're just having a better night. I'm not worried about it, but I mean, the stat that jumps out today is the 11 assists that Tatum had. I thought his playmaking was awesome. And they're just making Boston's offense is both beautiful and simple at the same time. And sometimes within the same possession. Those guys just get the matchup, they draw help, and they're just making the simple reads, and Tatum was just spraying it out. Just really, again, 11 dimes, that's a lot.

34:24Bill Simmons:Dream situation is they clinch Game 5 Tuesday, Knicks Atlanta goes 7, and they just get to put their feet up and relax and do the whole thing. I really wish Baylor Shireman would play a little bit more, would be my one critique. I think he's been lights out when he's coming into these games and really additive and I wish he would get more minutes. Quick mailbag stuff before we take a break. Adam writes in, the Io DeSumo 43-point game feels eerily similar to Jalen Brunson's coming out party post-Luke injury in the 2022 Utah series. Are there some parallels for is he starting to bump his free agent salary up?

35:08Bill Simmons:He isn't like an unrestricted free agent this year. Now, Minnesota can go over whatever to try to get him. But could you see a Jalen Brunson-Knicks, somebody going big on him and giving him like $110 million for four years or something? I mean, I'm not sure any of the cap room teams fit, but that doesn't necessarily prevent things like that from happening. I mean, I could because we're in a world where that's not like max money. It's a lot, but he's probably worth like 20 plus. I mean, that's probably his value for sure. I think for sure his value is above that. The Brunson thing is like, well, could he be the number one option on an elite NBA offense?

35:55I'm not sure I'm ready to go there because Brunson has the kind of physicality. But he's a really good player. I was really good. Again, we talk about it later, but just I don't know what the Bulls were. What's the rush?

36:07Bill Simmons:We did dive into that. We have a good player. We don't want him. Okay. I was thinking the markets between 20 and 25, but then you put the free agent craziness tax on it. And maybe it does get to like 110 for four years. Maybe somebody is like, this is Derek White. This is like the mid-2020s version of Derek White, Nikhil Alexander Walker, one of these guys that like, let's invest in this dude. And we think he could be the third best guy on a really good team. And by the way, if they thought that, I can't really disagree. I think he could be the lead guard on a really good team. The lead guard?

36:45Bill Simmons:Yeah, like the best guard you have. Not necessarily your number one scorer, not your number one playmaker. You need a real apex playmaker then. Yeah, but I think he could be your best two-way guard on a good team. I don't disagree. He's really good. Rob from Philly wants to know if the Ewing Theory Committee was dispatched to Atlanta to figure out whether Trey Young and the Hawks, the eligibility of that. We did send some people down to Atlanta and they rejected Trey's application. They decided he was not good enough. Oh. Yeah. It's a rare situation because four years ago you might have said so, but nobody was like, wow, what are the Hawks going to do now without Trey Young?

37:30Bill Simmons:And that's... Like it was too predictable. Yeah. Can I just like... The Ewing theory... I just, it's, it's, I'm a little angry lately about it because it's now so pervasive that when Francisco Lindor, my daughter's favorite player got hurt earlier this week, I got multiple texts from people because he's been struggling this season. Is the Ewing theory in play for Francisco Lindor? No, screw you people. Don't bombard me with that kind of stuff. Well, Dave, do you want it? Did you win a world series with Francisco Lindor? Then he's eligible. we did not yeah there you go somebody named Durant once had a long Durant email that ends with the question is Kevin Durant the Michael Jordan of good stats bad team guys this is my point of bringing up the Durant stuff earlier like I'm telling you people are losing their mind with this Durant thing these are the emails I'm getting I mean the answer is no most of his teams have been not bad.

38:36They've been out of bad teams.

38:38Bill Simmons:Kyle wants to know, Kyle wants to know, is CJ just Dame with worse PR? Or is Dame CJ with better PR?

38:52They're both excellent basketball players. Damian Lillard's had a better career. Is his PR good? I don't know. Is his PR very good? I mean, this thing is cool. The watch thing is cool. He's made a bunch of big shots. CJ is awesome

39:05Bill Simmons:if CJ can beat the Knicks these two of the next three and parade into the next round and try to go toe to toe with the Celtics it's not a closed discussion I just can't I mean you have to sit back for a second I mean he is like murdering the Knicks in crunch time it's like he's Michael Jordan it's like every play CJ and get out of the way and you have to sit back and remember like he was on the Wizards for like most of the season. He was just over in Washington doing stuff. And now he's like the biggest clutch force in the playoffs so far. It's almost like an actor that was on, I don't know, one of those fire shows on NBC.

39:50Bill Simmons:New York Fire. Is that a show? Probably. Chicago Fire? Chicago Fire is definitely a show. He's like a famous movie actor, but now it's like, oh, he's the number three guy on Chicago Fire. This is too bad. Now all of a sudden he's in, you know, a Christopher Nolan movie. And I'm like, wow, CJ, he's back. Last question. You and Zach, this is from Ryan from Milwaukee. You and Zach both gush over Jokic all season long. While he might be one of the best offensive players of all time, he's a cone on defense, forgets how to shoot threes in the playoffs, and he only has one ring. Give me Duncan over him and it's not close.

40:26Did any of us put him above Tim Duncan? I mean, you and I are like president of the Tim Duncan is...

40:32Bill Simmons:That's another one that as the years pass, people are starting to forget about Tim Duncan too. There was this great clip. He turned 50, by the way. Happy birthday, Tim Duncan. That's great. And there's this Twitter account called NBA History. And they ran this clip of Duncan... Duncan and LeBron congratulated Duncan after the 07 finals. And LeBron's like a baby. He's like 22. And he's like, hey, great series. And Duncan says to him, yo, I love what a good teammate you are. Keep it up. Keep doing what you're doing. Like he doesn't praise him about how well he's playing. He specifically praises him on being a teammate and his connection with everybody else.

41:09Bill Simmons:And to me, that's Tim Duncan in a nutshell. And that's why I always ride for the guy. Like he - Wasn't about the stats. He could have averaged 25 and 12 if he wanted to. He was very happy 20 and 10 and being an awesome teammate. Like he sounds like a mentally healthy youth sports parent, basically like - Right. I'm so proud of you. Here's this little mini trophy. All right, so we think Celtics win in five? Yeah. What about Lakers? I'm going to give the Rockets another game and say it gets a little frisky and Lakers win in six. Okay. I not only agree, I actually, I think it's six or seven. I thought LeBron looked a little gamey.

41:54Bill Simmons:You forget he's, I don't know if you know this, but he's 41 years old. You are. I mean, I looked a little gamey tonight. We do have to have every, and I, he deserves it. He deserves it. Absolutely deserves it. But we do. It's like, I think it's in the broadcast partners contract that there needs to be a two minutes soliloquy about LeBron's fitness and how much attention he pays to his body every game. It just like, it doesn't matter if you do it every game. It's just, all right. It's the eight minute mark of the second quarter. Grant Hill, the floor is yours. I want people to start doing that about me.

42:29Bill Simmons:It's like, Bill Simmons, 25 years now, columns and podcasts. You know, he walks every day, saunas, eats really healthy. Like this guy, it's amazing how he takes care of himself. Tell people out there who do that for me. Okay, I'll give it a shot. So you're more depressed about the Mets than I'm depressed about the Red Sox, it sounds like. it's a devastating turn of events. Fantasy had like multiple tweets today. He's, he's like, he turns into the Unabomber every once in a while and there's these long missives about the Mets. He's having a rough, I mean, it's been, it's a disaster. It's an absolute, like this has, the Mets have been, have like the Vince Coleman firework season, the Bobby Bonilla contract.

43:13There's like a lot of just embarrassing Mets stuff. This has the potential to just be... I think I saw that they've scored two or fewer runs in half their games this season. They have the highest payroll in Major League Baseball.

43:30Bill Simmons:Baseball's different than basketball because in basketball, if you spend money on guys, it usually works out. Yeah. It's like, oh, we've signed Giannis. He's 32. This is probably going to work out. In baseball, you sign somebody and their career is over the next day and you're like, we still owe you$280 million. You can't hit anymore? Longest into any podcast we've ever done before Giannis was mentioned and mentioned as a baseball-related aside, no less. Yeah, true. Giannis. A lot of time to talk about him this summer. Alright, we're going to take a break. We're going to come back. We're going to talk about an incredible Spurs comeback.

44:10Bill Simmons:What's going on with the Nuggets? The Knicks game for all the other basketball storylines is next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during their playoff run. Build the same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip-off. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21-plus select states are 18-plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming.

44:44Bill Simmons:If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Duluth Trading Company. Whether it's the 19th inning, the 12th quarter, or the fifth and a half shift, overtime, not going anywhere. Which is why Duluth builds hardworking gear for folks who work their butts off. Their surefire arsenal of work shirts are built for function and comfort, giving a big foam middle finger to all that is futile. And the new No Quit Utility Shared is equipped with cooling and wicking tech, oh boy, to keep you comfortable all while being tough enough to take down your most daunting tasks.

45:28Bill Simmons:When it's marathon work session versus you, give no quits. Shop at a Duluth store near you or at duluthtrading.com. All right, we just hopped in a time machine and went backwards to six o 'clock Eastern time to talk about the other six games in round one coming off Spurs Blazers. A terrifying San Antonio Spurs performance. Zach Lowe. This is the one that you're watching the second half. And if you're every other playoff team, the hairs on your arms are going up. Yeah. As we're recording this, the Blazers have 32 points in the second half of an NBA basketball game, which by Cavs Raptors standards earlier in the day, it's actually not so bad.

46:11Lavish. But an absolutely terrifying Wemby defensive performance in the second half. And then you throw in, like, oh, De 'Aaron Fox. Hey, I remember that guy. All-star De 'Aaron Fox just making step-back threes over everybody. Spurs are figuring out counters to all the weird defensive schemes the Blazers are using. But Wemby was just everywhere. And the Blazers are not a good offensive team. They're not a good shooting team. They're a horrendous turnover team. So, like, it's not as if they did this to the, you know, number one or two offense of the NBA. but it was legitimately like, oh my God.

46:44Bill Simmons:Throwing the road. That counts for something. Yeah. Also game three when Scoot, I was really having a moment on Friday night with Scoot taking it to Dylan Harper. And then we learned a valuable lesson. You don't talk shit to Dylan Harper. And then he put in a facsimile 2000 game four finals Kobe kind of arrival performance. Kobe's a 10 out of 10 on that scale. Dylan Harper was like a seven. but it was like, Hey, here's what the future is going to look like when I'm putting this all together. And I look like this all the time. So that was game three. That was scary. No, when being that game, game four, um, when being the Spurs, just, I, the only other team that can do this is okay.

47:25Bill Simmons:See, right. That could do a 60 to 30 second half of a playoff game on the road. And they've been, yeah. I mean, Oklahoma city has a gear of frenzy that almost nobody can reach the Spurs. It just looks different because they don't quite have the perimeter frenzy and all the crazy wing. They've got some great defensive wings and guards, but they have the one guy in the middle who is just everywhere and impacting every play and in four places at once. And you just see everybody looking around like, where am I? So I can't shoot this. I got to shoot. It's crazy. So this is a sweep if he doesn't get hurt in game two, I think.

47:58I mean, they were winning when he got hurt, but yeah, they were winning in the first half today. They didn't win. So yeah, I think, I mean, I picked Spurs in five. I gave the Blazers a game one way or another. They're a tenacious defensive team that can cause some problems. But yeah, this feels like, it feels like we're heading toward an appropriate Spurs in five.

48:15Bill Simmons:I think this, that series was a win for the Blazers. They, you know, we know what the limitations are, but when you think about, it was a good Drew Holiday series, like kind of validating a pretty weird trade, at least for the short term. They wanted to bring in a veteran guy. Then he was okay. I think, I wouldn't say the greatest matchup for him. And, you know, they're feisty. There's some pieces here, and I can't wait until they have a coach that makes$425 ,000 next year. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens when Gabe Kaplan is the head coach of the Trailblazers. Yeah, the Fox thing, the big things for the weekend, other than when we come back and looking healthy, was Harper in Game 3 and then Fox kind of reminding people, like, yeah, this is in here.

49:00Bill Simmons:I've been scaling it back. Just kind of here to help out, facilitate, get some shots out. But for the most part, that's lurking in there somewhere. We'll see if it lurks in an OKC series. Can we talk about Dylan Harper really fast for Game 3? Because neither of us have done a podcast since then. I would love to. That was a... I texted some people I know with the Spurs after that game. I said, that was a real effing playoff win, Game 3. That was like a big boy playoff win without Wemby. It was an awesome game. Scoot going at him. and then Harper basically from that moment on just taking his soul out of his body.

49:39Bill Simmons:Still a win for the series for Scoop, but Harper was so good and you could just see all the pieces where we're going to go. And I'm not really positive where we're going to go with him because when he hits the three-pointer, he basically has every single offensive weapon you need. He can do stutter step, get into the lane, Brunson style. He can just get to the rim. He can play with somebody on his body. He can step back and hit threes and then he can also kick back out to people with really precise passes already. He's a really, really, really advanced, advanced, advanced guard. One of the best, I think, rookie guards that we've seen come into the league that I can remember the last 10, 15 years.

50:20Bill Simmons:Who else jumps to mind at 19 and 20 where you could really see some special shit? Not very many people. And yeah, special. That was a game without Wemby that they needed other people to step up and he and Castle were both unbelievable. Yeah, first of all, it helps to move up in the lottery three years in a row. Second of all, it's been one of the pleasures of this series. Like, the Blazers have a lot of kind of power perimeter players, including one of the all-time great, like, power hybrid point guards in Drew Holiday. And it's been so fun to watch Castle and Harper be like, oh, we're just kind of babies in this league compared to you, but we're going to, we have that too.

50:54We're going to take it right at you over and over again. It's been so fun.

50:57Bill Simmons:Yeah. And Castle, who was the unsung hero on Game 3, at 33, but Harper was just such a dramatic second half entrance by Harper into that game that it kind of overshadowed everything else, but Castle's been great. Pretty omnipresent. Even that play that led to the double technical with Denny started because Denny was really physical with him dribbling up the ball and Castle finally got tired of it, took him to the basket, did the whole thing. Blazers home game, no t-shirts. They were shooting used t-shirts during timeouts into the stands. I don't know if you knew about that. They've gone to some goodwill, grabbed some stuff.

51:36Are you worn armpit stains? Like, what are we talking about?

51:38Bill Simmons:Yeah, yeah. Just, you know, not holes in them or anything, but definitely had been worn. I'd still think win for the Blazers. They've rekindled some trade value for some guys, and I'm interested to see what they do this summer. Okay. Cavs Raptors. Yeah. That also happened today. It did. this was an homage to what what year 2006 2005 2003 I mean I looked at the score multiple times in the second quarter and had to remind myself that it was the second quarter so you pick pick a year from a long long time ago in an NBA far far away oh four Raptors shoot 32 percent and win they had 21 offensive rebounds and they had 36 free throw attempts and it seemed like they blew the game and then the the Cavs had a very strange stretch they're up five they give up two free throws they missed five straight shots in the last two minutes and all of a sudden the Raptors are winning and all of a sudden the game's over and it was a it was kind of your worst fears for a Mitchell Harden game right I mean I don't even want to put the blame on Mitchell Harden nobody covered themselves in glory in this game, but Jared Allen and Evan Mobley to combine for 11 points on 5 of 16 shooting, when you're being guarded, at least at the start of the game, by a combination of R.J.

53:00Barrett, who they've cross-matched onto a big guy, and Jakob Pertl, who can kind of sometimes stay on the floor at a couple of nice takes in this game. Like, I understand that the Raptors, they bring in Murray Boyles off the bench, and when he's the only, quote-unquote, big man on the floor with Scotty Barnes, they're very switchable, they're very hard to play against, but, like, that's not the entire game and remember that the third quarter started and Cleveland very clearly came out and was like, hey, Evan, face up against Jaco Purtle if he's guarding you and score some baskets and he got two and I was like, all right, great.

53:30Then they switched the matchup. They put Purtle onto, I don't know, they switched the matchup one way or another. They put Purtle somewhere else and they put RJ Barrett on Mobley, I think. Yeah, and then we just never heard from either of those guys. Again, Jared Allen had a great defensive game, had some blocks, had some rim protection, but like Like, we can clown Mitchell and Harden for shooting 12 of 38 combined, but the big guys deserve a little bit of criticism, too.

53:57Bill Simmons:Mitchell, 6 for 24, Kobe Omash. Harden had six turnovers in the first half, and I tweeted this. I was so disappointed Barkley didn't make a joke about the Cavs being in Toronto all weekend, Friday night, Saturday night, and then playing a 1 p.m. game, and Harden just looked like he had woken up a half hour before. I had the same question marks next to Mobley. He had eight points, nine rebounds, and three assists. And you just forget he's out there for stretches. I'm starting to wonder if this is just who he is. We kept factoring in this bump and the ceiling for him and all the potential of what he could be.

54:36Bill Simmons:And, oh, wait, maybe he's really a five. Maybe he shouldn't play next to Allen. Well, what happens if he starts making threes? That's going to change him. what we don't see from him is the guys get out of my ways I'm just going to wreak havoc here for an hour right we need this game we're up 2-1 nobody can get anything going just I'm kicking in a fifth gear and I'm going to destroy everybody for about a half hour here and he just doesn't do it ever And this is the game you win if you're a serious NBA contender. On the road, tough game, tough atmosphere, tough but limited Toronto team, not a great team.

55:12You win this game and go up 3-1 and set yourself up for the 4-1 win, which I picked Cavs in seven, but it was sitting there for them. Toronto did not come out like a blaze of glory, and this is a game you win. And yeah, I mean, to your point, Cleveland all of a sudden, like they'll go, they'll put Allen and Mobley together at the start of each, each half. And then we'll never see them play together again. And we didn't see Mobley for like most of the fourth quarter. I know Jared Allen was playing so well. Yeah. And I think they're caught in this existential dilemma of like, all right, well, do we want to play them together more?

55:45Well, that means we have to increase their minutes. We don't love the spacing. It's getting a little funky. I've been to Mobley's three kind of disappears for a week at a time. Then, okay. hey, if we want to go small, who do we play when we're small? Do we want to play more guards? Do we want to play more of our forwards like Tyson and Struis and Wade, all of whom were okay today? And then Sam Merrill, who had been a zero for the entire series, came in and damn near swung the entire game and the entire series for Cleveland with his gravity, and he actually held up okay defensively even against Ingram.

56:13But it's like they all of a sudden feel like they're torn between identities in some ways, and it's not – this should – I mean, like, credit the Raptors. Their defense was sensational. Murray Boyles is one of the stories of the last month and a half of the NBA season and the playoffs so far. And they made it really hard on the Cavs, and the Cavs did not have a lot of answers.

56:36Bill Simmons:Yeah, Murray Boyles gets three stars for his game today. And the fact that they can play small with him, with a rookie, and be okay. But even big picture, let's say the Cavs get through this series, and they play Boston down the road. Boston's just going to go small with better players than Toronto has, you know, because I think this is a blueprint now. You mentioned that they were split between two teams, basically. I would almost say they're split between two teams, but then they're also split between a second version of those two teams where the Mitchell and Harden stuff at the end of games, where it just feels like they're both 30 feet from the basket looking at each other, and then one of them has the ball and the other one just kind of stands there and watches.

57:19Bill Simmons:It's a little weird. There's some Mitchell stuff I want to get into in a second, but they leave me cold. I don't think their defense is good enough either. And in this, you know, the Raptors shoot 32 % today. But with the shots that we're getting at the end of games, basically they're playing shed out there as a fifth guy. So it's Scotty Barnes just trying to beat people off the dribble. He's doing these spin things, then trying to kick out. they didn't really have anybody who could create a good shot i didn't feel like and they still won i didn't like any of the shots toronto got i mean their best offense for a good portion of the fourth quarter was scotty barnes just bring the ball up as fast as you can and see what happens and what happened was like people kind of got out of his way sometimes or they got in his way and he went through them i thought he was awesome i think toronto's defense is just taking away so much of the paint yeah and leaving mitchell and harden to be like all right we're just going to kind of run, pick and roll out here with our guards to see if we can get RJ Barrett switched onto us and then see what happens.

58:22And then we'll hoist a step back three because the paint is like a no fly zone. But, you know, we're recording this before six or Celtics. So we'll see what happens in that game. But depending on how that game goes, like that was kind of an underwhelming game three win on the road for the Celtics. I guess no playoff win on the road against a guy like Maxie, who's busting every scheme you throw at him is like ho hum. But the East is like Detroit's down 2-1 you know Cleveland 2-2 Boston is where they are the Knicks are 2-2 is Orlando going to win the East? what's happening in the East?

58:55Bill Simmons:I know it is like unprepared for anything moment so Darko said this about Scotty after the game I expect more from Scotty the way he's playing he's 60 % of a player that he's going to be in two to three years Scotty's going to be one of the best players in the league and he's already one of the best players in the league so he saved it at the end but I don't think he's one of the best players in the league I think he's a really interesting player and you can see today like the last piece that's for him to become like the number one guy on an awesome team that has a chance to win the title I think he's gonna have to have the ball and like what is his what's his finishing move gonna be and he might not have one he might just be almost like what Iguodala was and some other guys we've seen like guys who are way better off being your second best guy, your third best guy for them.

59:45Bill Simmons:He has to be the best guy, but I don't, I don't, I don't see it offensively. I don't know how he jumps up. What's in there in your opinion for him? I think it's the bully ball and the playmaking. And look, we can, we can debate like what's the best, one of the best players in the league. Like I had him, I had him third team, all NBA, and then bumped him off when Luca and Kate became eligible. So that puts you somewhere around the 20th best player in the NBA. So do like that. And it has been interesting in this series to see how willing the Cavs are. You know, they'll start with Mobley on him, and then they'll go with Tyson or Struce or Wade or whatever.

1:00:22And I keep waiting for him to just dominate those matchups. And the Raptors spacing makes it hard for anybody to do that. And he has stretches where he does, but I keep waiting for the moment where he's going to force Cleveland to put their centers or whatever. the only Mobley or Allen on him and put those other guys somewhere else. And that hasn't really happened yet. And it's just because of the jump shot, right? I mean, we all know they're going to try to go under every screen, force them to shoot jumpers. But I mean, I'm not going to sit here. Dude played 42 minutes, had 23, 9, and 6. I'm all right.

1:00:53And four stocks, I'm good with that.

1:00:56Bill Simmons:And here's the other thing I would say. They play really fucking hard and they're really competitive. And I like that. I like them a little more than maybe I did a week ago. I still can't imagine they would win a round or even two rounds. I still think Cleveland should win this series. But if I'm Cleveland, if I'm a coach on the team or I own the team or I'm in the front office, I'm a little nervous now that we're playing this team that exposes a lot of warts that we have, right? Oh, you're going small? Well, here's Moby to punish that. Well, Moby's not doing that. Oh, you're super competitive and going after every 50-50 ball and pounding us.

1:01:37Bill Simmons:We're going to fight back with our version of that. Well, maybe we don't have that. And the Raptors haven't even had the game yet where they just got lucky and hit a bunch of threes. I don't know if the Raptors have that game. But every team has that game once in a playoff series. There's always a game where somebody goes like 14 for 35 or something. Could you go be a Walter hit one? Just a shot of some kind? We might even see Grady Dick at some point. But yeah, if I'm on the Cavs side, I'm a little nervous because I have some fears. There's some guys on my team that have wilted in big situations.

1:02:12Bill Simmons:We don't have to name them. No, really? Yeah, we have some really bad playoff losses in our recent past. I got to do some Googling. I would just start to get, I would be getting a tiny bit nervous here. Can we do the Donovan Mitchell playoff history really fast? I love the Donovan Mitchell playoff history. Go ahead. Lost to Houston round two as a rookie, then lost to them round one the second year. blew a 3-1 lead to 2020 Denver in the bubble, beat a really young Memphis team, then lost to the Clippers in 21-6 after Kawhi left, the famous Terrence Mann game. Just an inexplicable loss. One of the most inexplicable losses of the decade.

1:02:49Bill Simmons:Lost to Dallas in 6-22. No Luka the first, I think, three games. That was Brunson's arrival. And they just kind of cratered as it went along. And it became clear. Somebody was going to get traded. Turned out both guys got traded. Mitchell goes to the Cavs. They lose to the Knicks in five. The next year, they beat Orlando in seven in a series that it seemed like they were going to blow, and then they showed up for game seven. Got smoked by Boston in five. The next year, last year, swept Miami and then lost to Indy in five in a game where they had more excuses than games won after the series ended.

1:03:26Bill Simmons:Well, Mobily missed a game. Garland was hurt. and Indiana just took their lunch in that series. In that series, just to add on to it, remember DeAndre Hunter got hurt, I think he gave one of that series on a Matherin chase down block and they were mad about that. He didn't get called for a flagrant, I think if I remember correctly, or they wanted to, I can't remember exactly what it was. And then they're like, oh man, what a big loss for DeAndre Hunter. And I'm like, really? Because it seems like you guys can't wait to get rid of DeAndre Hunter. Now that he's hurt, it's like the biggest loss in the history of playoff basketball.

1:03:59I didn't like the way they handled adversity in that Indiana series when it hit them.

1:04:04Bill Simmons:Well, if they lose this series, every guy in the team, the coach, everybody is, I think, on the table. I'm prepared for every single outcome, right? Is there one keeper that you would say, well, they won't trade him. I'm prepared for anything. I would say Mitchell, but Mitchell has a little agency in that whole discussion as well with just the one guaranteed year left on his deal. I'm not going there yet. They should win the series. They should win the series. They should be. But credit Toronto, man. I thought this would be a tough series for Cleveland, and it's going to be a tough series for Cleveland.

1:04:41Bill Simmons:This is officially a who are the tough guys on our team. Let's go. Like, who wants this? Who's ready to bang bodies? Who's ready to? I think Struis. I liked how he's been playing. I think Jared Allen has it in him. We'll see with Mobley. Harden, you never know. Mitchell, we've seen it. And he's his playoff. What is he? 28 a game for his career in the playoffs. That's what I was going to say when you went through the team results. I mean, there's been he's got a couple of dud playoff series individually. There's also been some series, particularly with Cleveland, where it's been like Donovan Mitchell.

1:05:14It is. Is anyone else coming with me? Am I just going to have to do this all by myself, including that Orlando one? They got it out in seven. and his postseason individual play is pretty unimpeachable. Everyone's going to have a dud now and then, even the very greatest players in the world like Jokic is having now. But it's been pretty, by and large, very good.

1:05:35Bill Simmons:Yeah, the only thing you could ding him is the results, but also 31 % from three of the last five postseasons. And a lot of stuff like today where he just couldn't ever really get it going. And I thought the kind of team the Raptors have is actually the kind of team you would want to throw at the Cavs. And I think the Celtics have a virgin out too. Just long wings to put on those guys and really bother them. And the ability to play small or big, depending on what you do. Well, we'll see. I already think this series is a win for the Raptors. I had Cavs in six. I bet the Cavs win game five. My prediction would still be that the Cavs would go and win in Toronto.

1:06:15Bill Simmons:But I just didn't like how the Cavs looked today. Can I say a couple other things about this game? Yeah. How about Scottie Barnes just going to the foul line and knocking them all down right in the game? And eight-second violation gets thrown in there. Like, if we're just going to have a complete offensive disappearance, we'll throw an eight-second violation. I'm not sure I've ever seen that exact kind of eight-second violation where Jamal Shedd seemed to know that it was coming and is like, what if I just jump in front of this guy right now and jumped in front of Donovan Mitchell? And sure enough, eight-second violation.

1:06:46Bill Simmons:And that's not the first time Mitchell's had one of those either. Okay. I'm going to save. I'll save the nuggets. Want to do some magic pistons? Sure, let's go. This is, I've said this to you. I got notes. I got notes on every series ready to go. I've said this to you before. This is a great one seed case for my 223 idea. Yet again, Detroit just on the ropes. Really? After being awesome all season. Orlando couldn't have been more disappointing this season and then ended the season in like a borderline disgraceful way. And now they're in the driver's seat at 2-1. But the number one thing I wrote down and I bolded it, I felt this way after game one.

1:07:31Bill Simmons:I felt this way halfway through game two. And then the Pistons played one awesome quarter in game two. Other than that, these teams look dead even to me. and even the net ratings are 105 and 104 offense defense for Orlando and the opposite for Detroit. All their stats are near the same. It just feels like if they play 20 games, I feel like 18 of them are going to be close. And I honestly don't know who's going to win this series. I would not bet on it. I would not make a prediction for it. I do not know what's going to happen.

1:08:05I think it's also a reminder that sometimes the conventional wisdom about the playoffs being different than the regular season is actually spot on. It turns out everything that we were worried about about the Pistons and Detroit fans yelled and screamed about how they had 60 wins and all this. It turns out your lack of shooting is a problem. It turns out the lack of secondary creation around Cade is a problem. And it turns out that Jalen Duren is just getting flat outplayed by Wendell Carter Jr. and looks just frazzled on both ends of the floor, which is fine. He's 22 or 23, whatever he is. He's not fine.

1:08:37Bill Simmons:It's not fine. I voted for him second team all-NBA. I shouldn't have this many voter regrets already. And I have like five. Well, okay. Fine is, I guess fine by fine. I would mean it's not entirely shocking to me that the playoffs have proven much harder for him than the regular season. But, um, but it's worrisome that Orlando has pretty easily figured out how to nullify him in this series. Yeah. His face up game just isn't working. I mean, Wendell Carter hit him with the, with the Shea, like this guy, this guy, the other thing with Dern is he carries himself. like he's the biggest, baddest guy in the bar.

1:09:12Bill Simmons:And Wendell Carter's like, let's go outside and fight right now. I'm right here. Wendell Carter's been a big winner, I think, of the playoffs so far. The inevitable Stu-Goga conflagration already happened. And it was interesting to see J.B. Vickerstaff kind of get fed up with both Stu's antics, and he yanked Duren early in either the third or, I think, the third quarter of that game after a couple of defensive mistakes and just, like, sat him for a long time. Like, they took that game, obviously, seriously. and Orlando took it from him and Paolo and Franz made a couple dagger threes. You don't expect those guys to have dagger threes.

1:09:43That was kind of fun.

1:09:44Bill Simmons:Did not expect that. Well, the trade deadline, which we were concerned that they didn't do anything major. It feels like it's continuing to haunt them. Kobe White, Desunmu, who... Oh my God. I mean, out of all the teams that could have trumped Minnesota's measly offer of four second round picks and our bus lottery pick for Desunmu, I'm pretty sure Detroit could have topped that one in about five seconds, right? Maybe those... Four seconds? Three seconds? Jenkins crashed back to earth. Yeah, that's another one. He played seven minutes in game three. Thompson, his stats are okay, but especially in the last six minutes of these games, and I would say the same for his brother, he's on the court dribbling around, and it almost seems like he doesn't know where the basket is.

1:10:30Bill Simmons:He'll be just going this way, and the basket's over here or backwards and just has once no part of shooting ever. And Cade's been awesome. I mean, if you said before the series, Cade's going to have a 31-5-8 through three games, you would think, oh, Detroit, then Detroit, are they going for a sweep? What's going to happen? They just don't, they don't have any other crunch time offense. It's every fear we had about the Pistons all regular season when we were doing the yeah buts. And look, let's just be clear. Like the Magic are good. This is a tough matchup for Detroit. It's not like they're, I don't think they're like choking or this is a sort of like condemnation of their entire team construction.

1:11:10They're a young team with some obvious offensive warts playing a team that probably had a higher over under number than they did before the season. And so like, it's not entirely shocking that this has proven a tough series for them. Everything you said about Assar Thompson is true. And they just, you know, I thought Orlando, Detroit went at Duncan Robinson with a little bit more precision and intent in that game. and they need Duncan Robinson's offense on the floor to sort of loosen everything up. And they just need Dern to play better. Like, Dern being a 10.5 rebound, like, okay defensive player, they're going to lose this round if that is what he ends up averaging.

1:11:45Bill Simmons:Yeah, you need the wildcard guy, too. You know, like, for the Lakers, and we're taping this before Game 4, but Kennard has been something of a wildcard guy for them, right? You need that. Oh, I did, like, Ayo last night. Wow. 27th second half. We weren't expecting that. I don't know who Detroit's, wow, we weren't expecting that guy is. It's probably Duncan Robinson, but they just never got the heat checking thing. I mean, it's a really interesting point you made about regular season versus playoffs because it's funny. You have in the East, Orlando, a team that we were all disgusted by at multiple points this year and really frustrated by.

1:12:23Bill Simmons:And then you have Minnesota, who was the classic, kept roping us in, then making us feel stupid. and they'd be like, I'm out of Minnesota. Then they'd look awesome again. They'd rope you back in and we just did the zigzag with them for six months. And then if you just watched them in the playoffs, you would think, was Jaden McDaniels the runner-up to Wemby for Defensive Player of the Year or was it Gobert? Did those guys finish two and three? And you see their bench and you just see the physicality and the intensity that they have. And I promise you, they did not look like that very often during the season, but they do now.

1:12:59They absolutely do. And I don't know if you want to talk about that series now.

1:13:03Bill Simmons:Let's go to a break. We'll do a break. We'll come back. It's going to be a hard one for us. Nuggets. Timberwolves. It's not going great. We'll talk about that next. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. With playoffs around the corner, now's a good time to create a tournament of your own. Compete to see who can predict the best playoff series or put your own basketball skills to the test. And the prize, a crisp Michelob Ultra. Plus, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, prizes, and more. Michelob Ultra, superior is worth playing for.

1:13:40Bill Simmons:Enter now at MichelobUltra.com slash courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526, no purchase necessary, open to US Residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods, see official rules at MichelobUltra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. We've seen some legendary athletes don the number four jersey. Now, I can't name names, but you guys know who I'm talking about. In fact, if you look at my studio, there's a framed picture of one of my favorite number fours. He played hockey.

1:14:20Bill Simmons:Anyway, you know what else is game-changing for? PayPal paying for. No fees, no interest, no impact on your credit score. It's just the flexibility to pay the way that works for you. And it's available at millions of online stores. Pay in four with PayPal. Subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com slash payinfor. PayPal Inc.

1:14:44Bill Simmons:NMLS 910457. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. You know why elite point guards make everyone better? It isn't just the no luck times. it's because they know everything. Who's hot? Who's tired? What the defense is doing? Which teammate needs a basket? Most businesses don't have that. Sales run one play. Marketing runs another. Nobody told service. The game plan has now changed. HubSpot gives you that point guard vision. One platform, full customer context. And that context is everything you need to win. Visit HubSpot.com to learn more. All right, Zach. Game four, Nuggets-Wolves, which gave us a terrible DiFincenzo Achilles injury that I didn't even see because I was watching the other game within a minute of the start.

1:15:35Bill Simmons:A really scary ant injury that seemed like it was the ACL because he was holding the side of his knee. Turns out hyperextension, but he's out for the round. Io is 43 in the game and 27 in the second half. And if you only watch this game, you would think he was one of the best 10 players in the league. We had a near brawl. involving Jokic. Very entertaining. Involving the Joker, which is always all bets are off. And Julius Randall came in with a little like Steven Jackson and the Artesmele kind of energy. I thought he was really going to escalate it. Huge fight in the stance. Lots of video from that.

1:16:10I didn't see that. There was a fight in the stance between Nuggets fans and Timberwolves fans.

1:16:15Bill Simmons:Big fight in the stance. You can go look that up. Wow, what a rivalry. It's even spilling into fandom. That's great. Well, maybe not great. I don't know if it was... I didn't see the fight. I should have said it was great. That was a rivalry. Were there children involved? I hope not. I hope everyone's okay. Hopefully everyone's all right. We had ABC breaking into the game and forcing us to move to ESPN because they had to do an update about the White House dinner, the shooting there. And then after the game, someone stole Joker's underwear and he was really mad about it. Probably more mad than the loss.

1:16:46Bill Simmons:I don't know where you want to start, but this was probably the drunkest game of the year, replacing whatever the previous drunkest game of the year was? I want to start with the injuries to Minnesota because they're up 3-1 in this series and if even just Ant were healthy they would probably win the series even though they only have the one home game left and be a dangerous team in the next round and now Ant availability is in question for an unknown period of time and D.V. Vincenzo, the dude is just a winner and a gamer, played every game. He wins everywhere he goes. He's just such an awesome role player and has done so well there.

1:17:29That's a heartbreaker. And you knew it right away. You feared it right away. He knew it right away, it seemed like, when he was on the floor. So I want to start there because as appealing as it is to start with, is Jokic having the worst playoff series of his career? Is Denver, is their window already closed or closing right now for this core? What does that mean for the offseason? And those are the big questions.

1:17:51Bill Simmons:I might, I might have to open a Michelob ultra for this. I'm getting upset. I want to sit with, I want to sit with the Timberwolves injuries for just a second because DiVincenzo is like just classic central casting, beloved, like glue guy, role player. And Ant is Ant, one of the faces of the league, one of the most explosive players in the league, a guy who plays both ends of the floor and is risen up in the playoffs every year that he's been there. And this team is like, has a legit, awesome top seven. Like, they're starting five plus Ayo and Nas Reed, and then you go down below that and it's Bones has been playing well and whatever, but, like, they are legitimately really good, and if they're harmed going into the second round, assuming they win this series, which I don't think is a done deal, by the way, that just, it just sucks, and all these injuries suck, and when Castle went out in that game earlier today with the hand injury, I'm like, I just don't want to, I can't watch this anymore.

1:18:45Bill Simmons:Yeah, and DiVincenzo's out next year. The timing of these, when you get March, April, May range, you're also out for the next season. I would assume unless he's on some crazy Tatum timeline that would put him back. I guess, I don't know. He would have to get lucky. I know he flew to New York today and got the surgery, but the thing with him, other than your top seven point, he would swing two halves a series just by getting hot. It felt like, and I thought he was a great wild card. Like, Oh my God, Dante's heating up. He's not afraid of this moment. And somebody's going to have to fill that spot.

1:19:19Yeah, I should have clarified by top seven. I'm including Di Vincenzo and now he's gone. And so we're going to see more of Mike Conley. I was very happy, by the way, that Mike Conley threw this all. Competent. Had a moment. Yeah. Had a moment in a big, big game. And Shannon got in. I think they're going to need, they're just going to need other guys to just fill time now.

1:19:37Bill Simmons:The Ant thing was the least surprising injury of the first round because he did not, except for Aaron Gordon, because Ant did not look healthy. You You could tell something was wrong with his knee. And he was also playing 100%, not favoring it at all. And then afterwards kind of be like, ow, that still hurts. And it was just scary to watch play by play because he was clearly not healthy, but playing like he was healthy. But that's the crazy thing about these two wins for Minnesota is Ant was in foul trouble and not great in game three. Ant was doing pretty much nothing. He wasn't even that involved in the offense before he got hurt in game four.

1:20:17and they still win both games. And I'm glad you brought up Aaron Gordon because, you know, he deserves credit for trying to gut out that game, but he just... It was scary. He was just jogging lightly on his feet, and he summoned a couple of big jumps for a rebound and for a challenge at the rim, and both times I was like, oh, no, is this... Like, it was not... And without him and Watson, they're just too small. They're too small for the Timberwolves. They don't have enough force. They don't have enough oomph. And, like, that's not an excuse. It just is what it is. And now there's just injuries scattered across this series, and one of these teams is going to win four games and go on to the next round and face the Spurs.

1:20:51By the way... Be a show of themselves. But by the way, I mean, you go back to that Spurs-Nuggets regular season finale. The Nuggets shouldn't even be playing the Timberwolves. Both of those teams had it lined up for them, and I don't know what happened. I mean, it's not like the Nuggets played all their best guys.

1:21:08Bill Simmons:David Roddy and all those guys happened. They just played... Their worst guys played really well for about a half an hour. that's when you start being like hey David Roddy if you ever wanted to take 12 left-handed threes in a half like have have at it man go watch some Mark Madsen film at halftime from game eight like you gotta lose that game and the Spurs should have been like well we'll help I talked about that a couple pods ago how that not only swung this series but it swung that Lakers Rockets whole situation in a crazy way where the Lakers just would have gotten I think dusted by somebody and instead we have this next chapter in LeBron's legacy and Marcus Smart's rejuvenated.

1:21:46Bill Simmons:Luke Kennard is back. The Rockets are a complete mess. Darren Gordon thing, regardless, he looks like he's done and it completely changes whatever the ceiling was for Denver. I thought they were going to make the finals. I don't think they're going to make the finals with how he looks. There's some other stuff, though. There is a lot to unpack. Well, the Io thing, how long were we on the trade deadline pod? we did talking about how fucking stupid that trade was and trying to get, we weren't the only ones. I'm not, I'm not claiming the territory by ourselves. Um, joining us were probably everybody else who has a podcast and watches basketball.

1:22:23Bill Simmons:Everyone who watched the Chicago bulls fairly regularly to regularly, this guy was a good basketball player and he was on a cheap contract and these guys should be the hardest people to trade for. And they got him for four second rounders. and it was just immediately clear he was the perfect guy to add for them. And I don't know where a bunch of teams were with this. I don't understand how you get this guy for four second runners. With that said, the stuff he's doing offensively, I did not know. I did not know he had this. Like he was unstoppable. Unstoppable. Denver was like gearing their defense to try to stop him and couldn't stop him.

1:23:02Bill Simmons:I did not know he could do this. I mean if I don't know when the first time stamp is of me saying to Timberwolves to trade for Io DeSumado but it's like in the fall it was that obvious and I and I do feel like imagine being a Bulls fan where almost everything that happens in the NBA playoffs ends up being a joke at your expense like oh this guy was just on the Bulls like you had him on your team you don't have a lot going for you you had him and you're like yeah you know what we're gonna have to pay him Minnesota just gets him and yeah I mean, he's just a very good player and he fits them well and he shot 45 % on threes this year.

1:23:39But I did not. I mean, it was the I.O. show from start to finish in the second half.

1:23:44Bill Simmons:Also another guy, and this is a recurring theme in all these series, just an incredibly competitive guy who really seems to respect and treasure being on the big stage. You've seen a bunch of these guys talk about this. Barnes is another one. I've really grown to admire Barnes. Barnes is like, I'll fucking die to win this series. I'll do anything it takes. I'm so happy to be here in the playoffs. And Io's another one. I think Io's this guy who probably watched the playoffs in April, May, and June every year. And was like, fuck, I really want to be in the playoffs. I'm on the Bulls. Why am I on the Bulls?

1:24:19They're my hometown team. Get me off of my note.

1:24:21Bill Simmons:So anyway, I'm happy for him. And he really fits in with the kind of mentality and energy of this team. And Jaden McDaniels, I watched something on the social media today of all the people he's kind of battled with and gone at. He has no respect for anybody. This would have been the guy who went at Kobe and Jordan if he was in those eras. He'd have been like, fuck these guys. I'm not afraid of these guys. And this is the best he's ever played. So to do all this when you have a compromised aunt who then goes out of the game in game four and still feel like they're probably going to beat Denver is pretty crazy.

1:24:59just a total gutsy performance by the Wolves. Gobert has been sensational the entire series. Sensational. There are a few other things that need to be remarked on in this game.

1:25:08Bill Simmons:That Gobert took a three? Well, okay, I was going to go. We need to deep dive the end of the game at some point. But Gobert takes that three. I mean, they're up 13 with six minutes left. That is such an insulting shot. That's like a shot you would take if you're up 30 with two and a half minutes left. That's like a very winnable game for Denver in most circumstances. And Gobert taking that. There was like 17 on the shot clock. He took it. That was so disrespectful. And I mean this in a good and fun way. That was just like, we have you. We know we have you. I'm just going to give myself a 15 % chance to have the target center just combust if I make this shot.

1:25:50That was so disrespectful. I loved it.

1:25:52Bill Simmons:You know, it wasn't even a heat check three. it was like a somebody driving home and they just decided to drive the car with their feet on the steering wheel and stick their head through the sunroof was one of those moves it's like watch this guys like that's how confident he was they were winning the game it was like a scene to put it in your language it was like a seven-way parlay it was like adam sandler in uncut gems betting on like kg winning the jump ball and five five other things happening at once and he was like fuck it i'm doing it we're only up 13 yeah i just they lost imagine if they lost we would look back at that and be like, why did you, what happened?

1:26:25Bill Simmons:You know what the funniest thing about that shot was? I thought it was going in. It looked good. It had this kind of energy for the Timberwolves where it's like, ah, that's probably fucking going in the way this is going for Minnesota. But yeah, that, uh, what McDaniels has done in this series and how, how many miles he's put on Murray combined with what Gobert has done to Joker. You know, I was on a lot of texts today. I have a lot of people in my life. They know who they are, who get really mad when I compare Joker to Bird of Magic and that I voted for him for MVP again, all that. So there's a lot of people I heard from today.

1:26:59Bill Simmons:I don't have to name them. And you want to do this now? Or did you have more from this game? No, let's do it now. You're, you feel it. I feel like you're on the therapist couch and you're ready to go. So let's go. It's, we're four games in the series. I'm not ready to say that this is one of the big disasters of all time. I will say if they get knocked out of this series and he's looked the way he's looked, it does feel like the best player alive room, the door is going to open and somebody is going to be able to walk into that room now and be declared the new person. I mean, I have voted Shea.

1:27:39I voted Shea. I didn't vote, but I didn't have a vote. I had Shea MVP, and Shea's been number one in Ringer 100 the last two or three times. That's fine. Isn't that already happened? Deep in the recesses of your soul, you thought Joker was the best player in the league. No. I mean, Shea took the belt, I think, this season after the injury. The injury is like a line of demarcation. The injury on December 30th when Jokic got hurt, he has not been the same guy since. And I think Shea has been the best player since then, period. No caveats, no like, well, if I had to win a game, blah, blah, blah. I think he's just been the best guy.

1:28:15By the way, we're probably not going to talk about it because it's a boring series. What he did to Phoenix in game three yesterday was like... Had it in my notes, 15 for 18? And shit talking? Straight up majestic. And they couldn't do anything with him. And defensively, he's a game-changing... He makes some game-changing plays here and there. But okay, I'm sorry. I interrupted the Jokic cope.

1:28:39Bill Simmons:Well, this is a six-year run. six, started in 20. They come back and they beat Utah, right? They come back from in the bubble. That was kind of the arrival playoffs. So seven years, really six. They lose two because of the Murray injury. He wins three MVPs. They win one title. That's going to start too. Oh, they won one title, but look who they played. People are going to do that. He's 31 years old. I wouldn't say he's going to have a LeBron type of physical arc of staying in shape until his late 30s and being incredible. God only knows what he's going to look like at age 35, 36. The bigger thing for me is the team around him.

1:29:22Bill Simmons:I really worry like this is like really it for him as a contender. If they can't get out of the first round this year, Gordon's year 13 next year. God only knows what he's going to be like physically. whatever we saw from cam johnson this year uh can't say i was impressed i went from thinking that was a steal of a trade to wondering like would michael porter jr have actually maybe helped them in this series people i said it from i know you did i know people disrespected michael porter jr the analysis of that trade and then uh and then tim hardaway like the biggest part of this game denver was like felt like they were going to come back multiple times in that fourth quarter Hardaway's in the corner, takes a three, it hits the side of the backboard.

1:30:03Bill Simmons:Like, I think it would have cut the game to like four or six. Next play, Cam Johnson, or the next time they have it, Cam Johnson's wide open on the side. Same thing, missed a three. Like, Murray was the only guy that hit a three in the second half for them yesterday. He had two. Everybody else was 0 for 11. So the supporting cast has been bad. Here's what I don't understand, Zach. For the season, they were first in offense, offense, 121.3 by possessions, 100 possessions. Their offense is 105.3 in the playoffs. Their last in three-point shooting in the playoffs, their 16th shooting 28.5. Their 40 % field goal, 15th.

1:30:44Bill Simmons:They're not really turning all over. Their second best in turnovers, their first to get in the line. Their 33 free throw attempts a game. And the offense just looks awful. There was one side I saw on Reddit that Denver on open shots is eight for 36 in the playoffs and on wide open shots, they're 20 for 57. I don't understand what happened to their offense. And I can't think it's just Gordon. And I can't think O 'Bara McDaniels, as good as they've been, are this good. Like they've completely shut down an offense that was humming the entire season. I don't really get it. Well, I mean, a lot of the open shots are Christian Brown and Spencer Jones and Jokic threes, which they're giving them.

1:31:24Bill Simmons:Which don't go in anymore for some reason. And Aaron Gordon on one leg, jump shots. So they're open, but it's not like Steph Curry's out there shooting catch-and-shoot threes. I'm glad you brought this up, though, because when the Nuggets fail, everybody wants to clown on Jokic's defense, which is hit or miss, obviously. Their defense has actually been fine in this series for the most part. They're losing because they have absolutely no answers for Minnesota's defense, and it's shocking to see Denver out of answers because they were the number one offense in the NBA this season. There were nights where it looked so easy for them.

1:31:58And the Wolves have just taken them completely out of their game. And they've taken Jokic. Gobert, with a great team of defenders around him, has taken Jokic totally out of his rhythm, totally out of his usual game. And the way I was looking at the tracking data over the weekend, this is before game four, because I was curious, having watched game three, his post-ups are down. He just doesn't want to post up against Gobert. like every minute that he's out there with Nas Reed or Julius Randall on him they should be going to him in the post and yet they weren't in the third quarter the Barber was out of the game for a while and I kept waiting for Jokic to take over and he was just getting the ball 30 feet from the hoop and they were running split cuts and all this stuff that looks nice but it's like dude you have Julius Randall and Nas Reed on you you should you should be like this is your time and then he's also not rolling to the rim nearly as often uh and I don't know if it's I don't know what it is but I I think he knows that they're trying to take that away and he's just not doing it.

1:32:56And when he's not doing it, he's not compromising their defense at all. And I don't know if there's, there was one play in game three that's he finally rolled hard to the rim and he got the ball in the spot where we've seen him make a floater 5 ,000 times. And he went up for it and Gobert was in the neighborhood rotating around. And in midair, Jokic dumped it down to Christian Brown, who was kind of like right under the rim, but couldn't go up because Gobert was there and the possession died out after that. And that play and combined with him, if you look at the tracking data, him rolling to the rim, rolling into the paint, rolling at all.

1:33:31He's just popping and staying put. Doing that less often has me wondering. They're just in his head. Gobert is in his head. He's out of rhythm. He's not playing the way he usually does. And all those pet paint shots are gone, vaporized. And the Timberwolves have completely taken him out of his game.

1:33:49Bill Simmons:I agree with everything you just said, and I would add this. And this goes to the taking him out of his game. They figured out a way to speed him up to just almost like a podcast where Jokic is like, I like when my podcasts are at 1-2. I'm a 1.2 guy. That's what I am. I like to play at that speed. And the Timberwolves have sped him up to 1-5. And where I've really noticed it is on defensive rebounds when he's trying to... He had a couple of the crazy turnovers that he hasn't had since like the 2010s in the second half of that game where it's like he's afraid McDaniels is going to come from behind or IO or somebody and they're going to swipe the ball from him.

1:34:31Bill Simmons:So he's getting these balls and he's like a bad out of hell going up the thing or trying to do these quick passes. And he doesn't have that same calm pace that he always had. Like they've just discombobulated him. And the thing I was telling to the people that were making fun of me today in my life, like people have had bad series, right? And every single great player we've ever had has had a lousy series. Yeah. Tragic Johnson. Kobe had the 0-4 against the Pistons was a classic. Bird had a couple stinkers, like the 88 Piston series is bad. Every Jordan against Orlando in 95, everybody has them.

1:35:10Bill Simmons:I'm just surprised it happened right now for Jokic with what we had seen this year because I really felt like he in a lot of ways I know he got injured, he came back, we were worried about him but I really felt like he had his mojo back and I thought this team knew what it was now you look at him, it's like Valanciunas doesn't play anymore they don't really have a backup point guard it's just a bad matchup for them and sometimes that happens in basketball So they're favored on Fandle for game five. They're favored by 10 and a half in game five. Oh, with the injuries. Sure. Yeah. I think that's still too.

1:35:46I think the way they're playing. I thought it would be like minus six. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen with Aaron Gordon. Just eye tests. And the fact that he didn't come back in the game in the second half after he went out. I would just plan on him. I'm mentally planning on him not playing. And that seems like too many points. But you brought up a very important point, though. Whereas as much as you want to make this about Jokic and that's, he deserves all the criticism. Like Gobert has eaten his lunch and taken him out of the game. Jokic and Murray scored 54 points in game four.

1:36:17The rest of the team scored 32. I'm sorry, 42. And Cam Johnson has been nothing. Christian Brown has been nothing. That's two of your starters giving you, giving you zero. Watson's obviously not playing. And I think there's a real discussion to be had. I don't know if now is the time to do it because we haven't got to the end of the game, which I found delightful. Are you doing this? No, there's just a real discussion to be had about Oklahoma and San Antonio are who they are. And did Denver just flat out miss its chance at a second ring? Is the window closed for them? Because Murray and Jokic are getting older.

1:36:53Gordon, I think you just have to assume that he's just not going to be healthy for six straight weeks in the playoffs ever again. I mean, the evidence suggests that. But they're, and the rest of their team is just not performing up to the level it needs to perform. And it just, you do, like, things happen fast in the NBA. You mentioned 21, Murray hurt. 22, Murray hurt. 23, they win the title. 24, they'll always regret blowing that lead in game seven at home against Minnesota. Because I think that had been favorites over Dallas in the next round and favorites over Boston in the finals, perhaps.

1:37:26Although, you know, that would have been a good matchup, obviously. That would have been tough. Boston probably would have been favored, but that was there are three rings sitting there. Two of them robbed. Their chance was eliminated by injuries. One, I think they would have had a real good shot at it and they didn't get out of game seven. And now it's like, is this it? Like, are we done? And if we do think we're done, what the hell are we supposed to do?

1:37:49Bill Simmons:You know what's hilarious? I was a step ahead of you for where you were going and I thought you were going where I'm starting. Jokic trades. Jokic, should Detroit trade everything for Jokic? Should Charlotte trade everything for Jokic? you want to do it? No, I thought that's where you were going to go, though. That's why I jerked up. Because I do think like this, if you're them, like we had the window and now we're kind of stuck with this team. That's the real issue with them. Sengun, five first round picks, six. I mean, you do really do it. You're not ready yet. I don't think Jokic, I think he's a little like Curry, where he's like, I like Denver and I'm happy and I'm just happy to compete every year.

1:38:26Bill Simmons:But the San Antonio KC point has been lurking all year. And this is why I really thought this was last stand for Denver. Like, this is it. You might be able to catch OKC in a back-to-back with Jalen Wins. They've had some injuries. You know you can play them pretty well. And San Antonio is a year away from being ready. This is like your window. And, you know. I don't know about San Antonio being a year away from that. Well, after this weekend. But I'm just saying, like, youth-wise. But they played them well in the regular season. The Nuggets played the Spurs well in the regular season. My point is, next year, San Antonio is going to be better than this year.

1:38:59Bill Simmons:So teams that are up 3-1 in a series, there's been 298 NBA examples. Okay. How many do you think have come back? 17. 13. Okay. Team 285 and 13. How many were coached by Doc Rivers? At least a couple. Minnesota's defensive rating with Rudy is 98.5 in the series. That's like out of the 1940s. Christian Brown, his extension kicks in next year for$125 million for five years? It does. It does. That is going to... I think it made the worst contracts with me and Waz and House. I think Waz drafted that one. It's now... There's been some... Him and Pirtle, I think, are going to be high first-round picks in that draft next year.

1:39:54Bill Simmons:But the Brown thing's tough because if you can't guard Io or anybody else, you can't shut down anyone on Minnesota, any of their perimeter guys, and you're not making threes and you're not finishing around the rim and you can't hit free throws. I'm really not sure what you're bringing to the table because that's kind of the four reasons you're playing. I think that contract was a bet on him improving his three-point shot, which he's done intermittently and then it always seems to disappear for two weeks, three weeks here and there. And yeah, I mean, that was a very clear choice of, you know, there's obviously a lot of variables involved in these choices, including what salaries the players want and all that.

1:40:32But that was a very clear, like, we're choosing you over Peyton Watson. Or if we have to choose one and whatever variables line up, we're choosing you. And Peyton Watson flat out outplayed him when he was healthy this year. And now he becomes a free agent and they are already like apron troubled. And I don't know what they're going to do.

1:40:52Bill Simmons:This really makes me sad. I do respect like if Jokic is going to go down my favorite non-Celtic to watch other than maybe Curry if he's going to go down this way I want it to go down this way like Terminator 2 style with the falling into the pit putting his hand up down 3-1 just like one last 37-15 and 17 and just doing everything. Murray is playing well in this series I think. He is. they just I just need unfortunately against Minnesota you're gonna need more than that wow so you're already you've already poured dirt on no no no no listen I said the best guy in the league no it's fine I said that they could still win the series you're an SGA now you're an SGA guy oh will you stop you love foul baiting you're a foul baiter now okay all right that's who you are it's fine look if I could bait fouls I would bait fouls I can't though I'm also I'm just at flat I'm just an injury risk at this point for any any running sporting event.

1:41:54Bill Simmons:I'm going to give you an OKFC hat. Is that a thing? No, I'm trying to make it a thing. No, OKC, they're clearly... It's Shea's time now, and if they win back-to-back, I think whoever emerges from that OKC San Antonio series will be the best part in the league. That's who we will feel has the belt, and that's just how it's going to go. Can we do three minutes on the end of the game? Yeah. McDaniels, Jokic? Yeah. First of all, I hope nobody gets suspended. I hate when this stuff happens when they do the film about did someone leave the bench. As you pointed out over text, I think the players thought the game had ended.

1:42:30I thought the game had ended. Everyone thought the game had ended. But there's one person that's not getting any credit here that I would like to give a little credit to. Mike Conley threw that pass ahead to Jaden McDaniels when he absolutely did not have to. He could have just dribbled out the clock or dribbled up to half court. And I think Mike Conley has a little bit of shit disturber in him. and was like, let's see what happens if I throw this pass up to Jaden McDaniels. And you could see Jokic watching. Like, as soon as that pass went, Jokic turned his back to the hoop that he was shooting at and just watched Jaden McDaniels, who was like, wait, are you going to do it, motherfucker?

1:43:02You're actually going to do it? And then he did it. But I want to give Mike Conley a lot of credit for starting the whole thing. Maybe inadvertently, maybe slightly vertently. I don't know. But that's a great pass by Mike Conley. He had another assist in an illustrious career. It's a great Mike Conley comeback. For point guard Mike Conley.

1:43:18Bill Simmons:Joker running at you full speed angry it's not what I want to see he's first team All-NBA with I'm trying to think other ones Isaiah Stewart Isaiah Stewart is Isaiah Stewart is in a league of his own Jalen Duren it's probably the top three two of them are on Detroit I did enjoy McDaniels McDaniels when he was asked about it I was like I didn't know what was happening I just know someone big as hell was coming at me I'm like yep that's right McDaniels' energy has I think really spoken for this Timberwolves team who's clearly knew they were playing with Edwards, not at 100%, and they're still carrying themselves.

1:43:53The other take I just want to have on this, if you will allow me, is Denver Nuggets, Nicole Jokic, David Adelman, all of you, stop whining. The guy scored a layup against you in garbage time. You're that upset about it? How about just don't go to garbage time? How about try to play better during the run of the game? The unwritten rules, it's not like he did a windmill dunk 360. Just put the ball in the hoop.

1:44:15Bill Simmons:I think it was that it was him of all the people that did it. Well, then just take the L because the guy talked shit about your entire roster, backed it up and made a layup in garbage time. Then you get all mad about it. Come on, the game's going on. He made a layup. Big deal. He doesn't get to see scores. He wants an extra two points. You'll be surprised to know I completely agree. And I thought Adam and seemed like a loser in the press conference. And by the way, him talking about wondering where when the when the all the Nuggets fans, everybody who watches this team is like, where's the fight?

1:44:48Bill Simmons:Why are you guys rolling over like this? What are we watching? Where's the pride that we've watched the last six years? And Adam is like, what do you mean? I thought we were competitive. I had it in my notes in the game. In the last, from minute four to minute two of the fourth quarter, not the very end, but a little stretch there before the very end, they seemed to start playing harder than they had played, particularly on offense. Like they started executing with a lot more zip and a lot more force. And to the point that I put it in my notes is like, where it's too late. It's too late now. Well, do you think Adam and his coach in this team next year, if they get bounced in five or six?

1:45:26Bill Simmons:Cause I do not. Who the hell knows with these coaching changes? I mean, Tiago splitter can't get a job. These guys are all getting, who the hell knows with these coaching decisions anymore. Billy Donovan's like, Hey guys, do you have a top six or seven player in the league? because I would love to have that opportunity to coach somebody really good. You know who did it right? Monty Williams. Took all the money, got fired, and was like, you know what I'm going to do? Just nothing. How about I just coach high school, coach my sons? You can keep paying me eight figures a year for as many years as the contract goes on.

1:45:59That's what Billy Donovan, I don't know, I think he only has one more year left.

1:46:03Bill Simmons:I don't think people are knocking on Monty's door. There's been a couple people that have just like, will Adrian Griffin ever coach again? There's a couple of these guys that just come and go and we'll never see them again, I guess. That was a bad ending, Adrian Griffin. Anyway, that's Nuggets Wolves. I think there's a lot. My only thing to add from that bra was I just really want to encourage people to go back and look at Randall going to another level. I actually really thought he was going to take a swing at somebody and get ejected. So we'll see if they have suspensions. I watched it again today many times.

1:46:38he seemed under control under control to me and just incredibly strong my takeaway from that was is just so fucking strong that if he gets into these scrums the whole scrum is moving and whatever julius ran into whatever direction he's pushing that's where it's going this episode is brought

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1:47:27Bill Simmons:That's instagram.com slash teenaccounts. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first, but didn't live up to the hype? Well, marketers know the feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach, reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's not such a great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that, bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn Ads. You can target by company industry, job title, and more.

1:48:05Bill Simmons:So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend$250 in your first campaign on LinkedIn ads. Get a$250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash rewatchables. Terms and conditions apply. All right, Knicks talks really quickly. It was absolute panic time after game three for the Knicks fans. I know you know a lot of them. I know a lot of them too. I was just shocked by the angst. Knicks come out. Guess what? When the Knicks have the lead for most of the game, pretty fun ride. They took the lead early. They're up by 10, 11, 12, 15, 8, 12, and never gave it up.

1:48:51Bill Simmons:The only things that I noticed, other than that they weren't playing from behind, was they won more 50-50 balls. They played through towns a little bit more. It wasn't like he took 40 shots. And they gave us a whiff of Alvarado. Yep. But the big thing was that Atlanta just sucked. I thought they were just awful. It was a Butterfingers game. I watched with your old Grantland teammate, Rembrandt Brown. Oh, poor Rem. Every time he's come over, I think he's come over for an Atlanta loss, regardless of the sport. And we were just saying this is a Butterfingers game. Every 50-50, you could just tell they're going to lose it.

1:49:30Bill Simmons:Guys in traffic, they're just going to lose it. Rebounds, bouncing off hands, going to the Knicks, and they just really sucked. 10 for 41 from three for Atlanta. And I thought the Knicks were leaving Daniels and Jalen Johnson and Okongwu. Basically, if you want to shoot that, you're open for a reason. Good luck. Well, they should. I mean, that should be, you know, the Hawks want to get into the paint and knife around in there and get to the rim. and they should go under on screens when they can for all those guys. And it's on the Hawks to make it hard through disguise and creativity and all that for them to do that.

1:50:02But I think the Knicks' two wins in this series have been two of their very best defensive games of the whole season. I think Towns has been pretty sound defensively throughout the whole series and including in those two games. And I understand the angst if you're a Knicks fan because this is just on paper, they should be up 3-1. This should just be a run-of-the-mill favorite over underdog, has a chance to close it out in five first round series. And in the middle of their two pretty emphatic wins are two one-point losses, both of which they could have, should have had multiple chances to win and didn't, partly thanks to CJ McCollum being unbelievable, partly thanks to some puzzling coaching decisions, partly thanks to the Hawks being good.

1:50:42But doesn't this feel like it should be 3-1 Knicks and just we're barely thinking about this series because it goes the way these series tend to go? And now - Can I say two and a half to one and a half? That's fine. they better win game five because you think it was angsty going into game game four if they're down three to go on to atlanta look out

1:50:59Bill Simmons:bench karma was great for the series atlanta is 32 from three daniels is i'm sorry jalen johnson's 28 daniels is 14 kaminga is 18 kaminga i want to single out for being singularly horrific in game four um that was wow it just really just it was like throwing a grenade on the court. He just couldn't have been worse. We've also seen the flip side of that when he comes in and he's awesome. That's just who he is. He's trick or treat. It was a trick in that game. But I just wrote down in bold, I do think the Hawks blew their window for this series. I think they could have, if they had come out and thrown a couple punches and made some threes and gotten the crowd into it and gotten the Knicks a little nervous, I would have been really interested to see what happened in the second half.

1:51:48Bill Simmons:but they did not do any of that. Here's the only, I mean, I don't, the Knicks are an endlessly fascinating puzzle to me. They look great for one game, great for two games, crappy for one game. You never know what is going to happen with them. The one thing I would say about the Hawks and their chances is, I still didn't love the way the Knicks half-court offense looked in that game, despite the fact that the same simple play of Jalen Brunson setting a back screen for OG and an OB in the corner worked like 17 times as if the Hawks were just like, I guess we just can't adjust to this. We're just going to let OG dunk eight more times.

1:52:22And then I looked up the numbers because it seemed to me like the Knicks were just every transition chance they had, to your point about 50-50 balls. And if you go to cleaning the glass, their half-court points per possession in that game was like average-ish. And transition, it like breaks my laptop when I bring up their transition points per possession. That's like, that's the Josh Hart stuff, right? I mean, that's the stuff that he brings. I mean, the other thing is, it's not like the McHale Bridges question was really answered. He played 19 minutes in that game, even though Mike Brown started him.

1:52:53And didn't you think it was weird when Mike Brown was like, I'm not going to tell you who's starting, but whatever decision is made is my decision. I'm like, did anyone think, like, did anyone think it was not going to be your decision? Like, what question are you answering right now?

1:53:06Bill Simmons:Rick Brunson was in play. Maybe that was speaking to Rick. Bridges has reached the, it's a bonus if he does anything in these games part of his contribution to this season it feels like. But the flip side is OG has been so good and so awesome that the seesaw of the OG Bridges seesaw is now like this. But OG has been so good they're almost okay with it because they're getting what they're getting from Hart. I never understood why they gave up on Alvarado. I know that he wasn't hitting threes for weeks on end and had become unplayable. but I just think in a playoff series, he's annoying and he's the kind of guy who can come in in the second quarter and somebody like CJ McCombs like, God damn it.

1:53:52Bill Simmons:I hate going against this guy. This is not going to be a fun five minutes. And I think I really value those guys in a series. Well, first of all, he had just an all-time great Grand Theft Alvarado in the game. He did. Second of all, you just have to add them to your list of when you go through it, guards the Houston Rockets could have and didn't trade for. that might have helped right now list. I mean, that list is 100 deep. It's pretty deep. Colin Sexton is like, I mean, watching these games, I mean, I could have really... Colin Sexton is like, I was right here. I won't throw the ball away if we're up by six.

1:54:33Bill Simmons:Well, I think what's funny, and maybe not funny about the Rockets, is keeping Van Vliet because he was so important as a locker room guy and he wanted to be there. and you don't want to put him in a trade, which I get. That's great. But who has a worse locker room in chemistry than the Rockets? Maybe they could have afforded to trade Van Vliet for somebody who could dribble the ball and protect a six-point lead with 30 seconds left. Bridges for the series is 7.3 points a game. OG's averaging a 21-9 and he's shooting 52 % from three. And feels like he's hit nine huge threes with the shot clock expiring and the Knicks having nothing going on.

1:55:10Yeah. Just bailing them out. So, we talked before game four, and you were talking about emergency pods, all kinds of stuff, if the Knicks were down 3-1 in a game five.

1:55:24Bill Simmons:It was conceivable that the Knicks were going to be down 3-1 heading into a game five, to our earlier points. Yeah. It was in the air. You could feel it. I think game five is going to be an awesome game. If we're talking about what's going to be the most compelling game fives, and we're taping this before these last two games that happened today. But these are game, these are game fours. So, right. Um, Minnesota, Minnesota, Denver game five is obviously a must watch with a lot of like big picture, Yoko's legacy stuff at stake. And I think Knicks Hawks would be the other kind of must watch for me.

1:56:00Bill Simmons:Orlando, Detroit, they don't even have a, we have a game four coming up because that series has been a little staggered, but Knicks Hawks, like, I still feel like the Hawks could just shoot better and hang around with them and then just try to get it to the last three minutes and i thought the same way with you about the next half court offense i mean it's going to be a fascinating game i'm hoping to be there and you got to go to that one i would demand you go my credential application has been filed um and we'll see uh these games get crowded and all that but do you want me to talk to bobby bacala and who are the other sopranos that go so i don't know about the other sopranos but i i mean the knicks have more celebrity fans than the Lakers somehow.

1:56:42I'm going to call

1:56:43Bill Simmons:Modine, see if there's extra tickets. He hasn't been there. I haven't seen him there in a while. Susie Espin, let me give her ring. Yeah, get Susie on the horn. You got to go to that one. But no, I mean, like, the East is again, who wants this conference other than, I mean, we're taping this before Boston-Philly. If Boston blows the crap out of Philly, it goes up 3-1. Yeah, let's do that. We'll do that in the first segment because Boston will give us right now it's 11-10, so we got to go pretty soon. I got to do a really quick parent corner with you before we go. Shoot. so Amazon Prime, they do the thing where if it's like three devices are using it, they shut one down or four, I forget what the number is.

1:57:21Bill Simmons:So my, my daughter's using my Amazon Prime, which is fine because she's my daughter. I'm sure yours will be in college someday using your Amazon or one of your other streamers. And I was using two different ones because there's two games going on and it logged me out of one of the things. And it was because my dad was logged into my Amazon. So I had to call my dad. My dad's like, well, I can't get Amazon unless I'm on your Amazon. And I'm like, but dad, you, you have Amazon prime. I do. Yeah. You guys have Amazon prime. That's when you get packages or you send stuff. Like you pay for Amazon prime.

1:57:57Bill Simmons:I'm positive. And he's like, but that, so my Amazon prime would get me the games. I'm like yeah you have Amazon Prime which would allow you to use Amazon Prime to then watch the game on your Amazon Prime so we walked through this and my wife and I were on speaker just like ridiculing him oh that's not nice no we love to make fun of my dad but I realized they should be doing PSAs I really think they should Amazon Prime should have a whole ad campaign like, the game is on Amazon Prime. And guess what? You have it. The more you know. You actually paid for it. The more you know. You already have Amazon Prime.

1:58:44Bill Simmons:Go to it. Here are the buttons. Then look, the game is going to be on there. You don't have to steal it from your kids. So I just, the streamers things, it's been really rocky this first year, not knowing what games are on. I did, I went to three before I landed on ESPN for the first game today. it's like a little game show my 83 year old father has figured it out they come over for dinner at least once a week and I think they came Thursday and he was like hey are all the games on Prime tonight and I was like yeah I'm going to give it a try see how it goes I'm like okay my younger sister is the one who usually gets a little dicey No, she does the tech aid to the parents.

1:59:31Like I can't get on the Zoom kind of stuff. But he figured it out and was watching the games.

1:59:36Bill Simmons:I think it's been a real problem in bars because I mentioned this on a podcast about bars and hotels recently and got a few emails from people who were talking about being at a crowded bar with people telling the bartender to put on Amazon and just them just basically like doing the Borat. Like, ah, ah, ah, ah. Well, everyone will get there. We'll all get there at some point. It's just, this is how it was going to go. But yeah. So to the parents out there, the older parents, you probably have Amazon Prime. Stick with it. Yeah. Stick with it. It's going to happen. Okay. Sack Lowe, your podcast Tuesday morning?

2:00:12Yes.

2:00:13Bill Simmons:Okay. And then you're going to the MSG with Bobby Bacala and AJ Soprano on Tuesday night. That's the plan. That sounds great. All right. Good to see you. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. I'm coming back on Tuesday with another podcast. Plus, rewatchable is Ghostbusters Monday. Buckle up. Get ready for that one. Thanks, everybody. Thanks to Netflix, too.

2:00:55Bill Simmons:Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867.