Euro NBA Thoughts, Plus Cody Rhodes on Being the WWE’s Guy, Leaving AEW, Feuding With John Cena, and the Rules of Kayfabe

28:59I wanted to at least give them something to remember me by. And is that some son of a wrestler shit though? Oh, big time. Like you kind of grew up in the world and you just kind of understand differently that there's a different level of respect with going through an injury like that. But here's the thing. It's son of a wrestler for sure. However, had my dad been alive, he wouldn't have let me wrestle. Really? Because my dad didn't look at me like a wrestler. My dad wanted me to be an actor and thought I was... Oh, you're like Michael Corleone? he disappointed he had the family business he legit he was he was very happy when i got into it but my dad just babied i'm the baby of my family severely babied me and and just took care of me in the greatest way i to me greatest dad ever but if all the other old school wrestlers were like yeah that's it right there that's that's old school all of he would have been the one to be like that's the dumbest thing i've ever seen why did you do that so i part of it was old school wrestler and and really again like i said i lied on the way i i kept it so the information was true wwe's doctors looked at me and said he can't hurt it any worse that was true couldn't hurt any worse but also but it didn't mean it hurt it that was the part yeah i was like oh i'm good i'm good and uh was there a moment like 15 minutes in where you're like shoot me in the head this is the worst idea i've ever had it's probably two minutes in okay um because i hadn't done anything and so So it detaches here by my armpit.

30:28But the other part is connected to your collarbone, right? So when the detach here, it just falls. There's nothing there anymore. However, it would cramp up into the collarbone spot. So anytime you did anything, it would cramp up. It was giant. It literally is sticking out this much. And when that happened, it hurt more than anything. Did you feel like your collarbone was just going to come out of your body? You're going to literally explode. That was the only thing for me where I thought, and also everyone was under the impression oh they're gonna go like six minutes this is it's fine it's not gonna be much that match was awesome you're in there with seth rollins there's nobody better and we got like 25 minutes there's tables involved he pulls out a toolbox at one point hidden we just went for it because again wanted them to have something to remember me by i was i was uh i hate saying it but i was really ashamed i'd never been hurt yeah and then i finally got to the spot and I got hurt.

31:21He's in here and you know Nick and Triple H and all these guys saying, hey, you're right, Cody. We're going to go all in on you now. And then I felt like I'd blown it. So I wasn't going to leave that spot that night without at least leaving a very large mark on hopefully the fans. Yeah, you're like, I've come this far. This is a seven-year odyssey to get back here to this moment. I'm not leaving now. I think in my documentary I said it's a peck well spent you know like it's it's just a peck and you know something crazy about the peck surgery dr dugas did my surgery and he's done like so many great athletes and wrestlers but right before right before the surgery he goes you know this is mainly a cosmetic surgery and i said what he goes yeah plenty of people don't repair it and they're they are fine i'm I'm like, I don't want to sit out for six months for cosmetics reasons.

32:19And then the next thing you know, you're out. And I'm like, well, no. He's just trying to make you feel better. I think he was. Because I was like, I don't know. I was told this was very serious, sir. But yeah, he said that right before it happened. But you're healthy now, though, right? Yeah. That's the only injury I've had the entire time I've been doing this. Because you're right in that wrestler prime. Wrestler prime's like... Do you know the exact age? I would say it's like late 30s into like the 42, 43 range. Because you have enough... I would say enough experience. it's 35 to 42 yeah you hit it yeah and now your mic skills are gonna be the best they've ever been 35 to 40 you nailed it though but it's like it's honestly like a stand-up comedian or something if you're a stand-up comedian you're going to clubs for 10 years perfecting yeah how to feel in front of whatever crowd you're doing how to how to have heckers bounce off you everything and then you kind of figure out who you are and what your act is the big the big thing is who you are and how you can handle every situation and yeah and and what you do is stand-up comedy is such a great parallel because what you do in a live setting we were in uh mexico city two nights ago and we did this spot where bad guys are beating up my partner on the outside they did it so many times that i used to watch undertaker do this thing when i was the bad guy undertaker come down on the floor he'd snap the chair together where the whole crowd could hear it So just the acoustic of, oh, and then you chase us around the ring.

33:40But nothing actually happened. It was such a less is more situation. And I got to do it the other night. And it was just something that we felt in the moment and trusted the crew would know what's happening. You hear that, Jerry, you better run. Otherwise I have to hit you with it. And I felt so great because he actually was there at the show watching it. So like, all right, we passed on this knowledge and we can do things like that now.

34:23You know?

34:31You're going to take care of yourself every day. You're going to take care of yourself and your home. You're going to take care of yourself when it comes to you. And because you're going to take care of yourself, we're going to take care of yourself. We need to take care of yourself. So that credit becomes so easy as you can. Hol also you your credit on auxmoney.com. Auxmoney. Credit. Just online. There are two ways, how wrestling has gotten better since the day of your dad. One of the great wrestlers of all time. I don't know where he ranks. and see if we had like first take for wrestling. We would just constantly argue about, is this guy better than Dusty Rhodes?

35:04Where does he rank between Hogan? I feel like I want to pull every time media, a lot of the really great media moments that you'll go on and talking to really excellent people always ask the question, what's your Mount Rushmore? And I don't like it. I don't think people realize, I basically say a different one each time. I'm waiting for someone to be like, oh this guy's full of shit yeah so you just do different that's a good word because i like that because how how can you do that there's so many eras of wrestling so many uh different and when hardcore fans start breaking in on technical stills on promos i guess that's better than just saying here's the four and then you get into the situation where it's you just have to be really generic and be like well pro wrestling is about drawing money so okay here they are we've heard those four before you know like it's you know what it's like it's like actors are like this because in basketball it's easier because you actually can come up with a list that's going to look mostly like somebody else's list right lebron and jordan and russell and there's like certain guys at the top i think when i think about wrestling lists or actor lists or comedian lists it's almost more like who if you start talking about it who has to be at least in the conversation as you're talking about it.

36:20And it doesn't have to be like seven, four, 10, but like Hogan clearly has to be on it. Right. Stone Cold, your dad. So it's so funny. It's like a short list, but you kind of know who's on the list and everybody's list can be different, but everybody's going to have the same five people. I just did a, there, I don't, there's a documentary on Hogan that was coming out and I did the interview a month ago and I actually kept saying i'm like well from the business standpoint you're one and twos of of that time period up until recently the one and twos were very clearly hulk steve austin so you can interchange him and up until recently because we've been blessed that we're breaking all these records um so we'll see how if you're talking about one guy just selling out arenas yeah everywhere who has a dramatic impact and it didn't matter whether they have the title or not see andre has to be on that too because Andre didn't even need the title.

37:15So you're probably definitely right with Andre. The only issue with Andre, it's a similar issue I find with my father, is the data isn't there succinctly. You know, Meltzer certainly tries to do a good job putting data together. Shoemaker, a lot of people can look at it, but so much of it is lore and so much of it is fantasy. Oh, there were 60 ,000 people. There probably was. But now we're really, I mean, the fire marshal is going to tell you how many tickets we actually sold it's yeah it's way easier to attract now these days and so i feel like a lot of it gets lost to the lore and part of me if you've ever seen the movie big fish where if big fish is that's like my childhood it's a great movie in that it sounds familiar big fish is uh ewan mcgregor right oh yeah i get that right yeah is it ewan mcgregor i'm sitting here saying it's one of my favorite movies yes but the end the end The end is, that's the moral, is all these tales he heard growing up that he thought, oh, they're just tales.

38:15And then, not to spoil it for anybody, but at the funeral, you find out, oh, oh my gosh, so many of these things were real. So I like to think, like Andre, you're probably very right. And Andre, certainly I've got books in my basement, booking journals from late 70s, early 80s. Yeah, great stuff. and if you flip them open, there's the card. There's how much money they made. There's how much they made the last time. And then typically on some of these, it will say Andre coming in, Battle Royal, and then you'll flip to where next year, Andre, and always up, always up. He truly was, you had to come and see him.

38:54You know, and Gorgeous George was the first ever to do that. And San Martino was like that. Oh my gosh, yeah. Bruno. There's some people that had really nice short runs though. Like, I still feel like Sgt. Slaughter and Iron Sheik was one of the great feuds of the entire last 50 years of WWE. And it was only like three, four months, but it really mattered. And the crowds went absolutely fucking bonkers with the USA versus Iran stuff. Sgt. Slaughter is, I feel, really underrated. A hundred percent. He's got a street fight with Pat Patterson in the Garden. Oh, it was like match of the year. Yeah.

39:31And you have to, if I told my students about that today, they'd no clue. Even the people I'm talking about, they wouldn't know Pat. I don't think they'd know Sarge, but I do have a selfish little Sarge moment that I, I, you would be the first person I've shared it with, but it was, I mean, it gave me goosebumps. Unbelievable. Made me feel so good. And also made me feel like, oh man, I hope he's right. But we're standing there for the 10 bell salute for the Hulkster. and I'm standing next to Sarge. I saw him out there. I was excited to see him. And he's standing next to me and afterwards they're playing the video package and we're just out there and I shook his hand, shook Hunter's hand and he said something to me.

40:12I didn't really hear it and I think I just said like, oh yeah, yeah. Just kind of like, and then I heard him and he goes, no, no, carry the ball. And I thought, I mean, it made me feel like 10 feet tall. yeah it may i had a promo later that night and i'm thinking i gotta go i yeah sarge sarge just told me carry the ball i better i better not let him down i was so uh i was so excited there's a i got to hang out with the legends a little bit that day and i know the circumstances were somber but to just be around jimmy hart right yeah to be around sarge uh hacksaw who i god bless love hacksaw jim duggan uh just that was really nice to be around too yeah i was saying we got sidetracked.

40:56I sidetracked myself. I was talking about the two ways wrestling's different now versus then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. No, it's one is the moves and the athleticism, which we talked about. And then the other is the entrances are all great now. Yeah. And you go back and you watch the old ones because I was thinking about that with Hogan when he had Eye of the Tiger and it was one of the first great entrances. Yeah. The Freebirds had, what did they have, Leonard Skinner? Well, they were the first to have music, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was very early on only a couple um macho man had the big the big grand yeah um but now it's like everybody and a lot of them are designed for the crowd to be able to sing along at some point in the song which you have yeah um they didn't sing along i had that song forever yeah and now they do now they get it yeah but that's how i think those are the two ways wrestling's better in hd so it's so the songs and randy was talking about this the other day randy orden because he was they sing his song like word for word now.

41:53And it's new to him. And he was talking with me about it. And one of the things though about it is it's really old school actually, even though there wasn't music then, the whole point of what we're doing, the whole point, and I don't know if Unreal points this out and I bet you it does, is we're trying to connect with them. It's not completely sport. It's not completely entertainment. None of it functions though without them caring. That's the whole thing you know john cena's rule if they start making noise he's coming up he's gonna fight back to see your guy see your girl and then you do a thing so usually it was something that affected the matches we'll cheer for such as the matches we'll cheer against such and such in the match now it's we come we sing the song we say whoa we do the yeet we that is as old school as it gets actually it's just done in a very new package because the entrances are so highly produced and part of it now but i remember road dog jesse james yeah and billy gunn yeah when uh when wrestling made its big comeback for the wwe after wcw is kicking its ass but those guys would come in and do the entrance and sing the song and the crowd lost their mind oh you didn't know i mean literally yeah oh you didn't know it was like they didn't even need to wrestle so good it was like i'm just here to do this and sing with you guys so if you were wrestling me tonight and i came out and the crowd was really receptive to kingdom the song yeah they were woeing like crazy and then they started the soccer chance the cody cody roads chance i'd probably tell you just kick me in the gut i don't need to do they seem good i'm good they seem good with me kick me in the gut and let them boo you and we'll just see how long it goes you know just because it becomes part of your match now well when punk came back finally to ww after 72 years of sitting out but That first time when he walked in and the crowd was just going nuts and singing his song.

43:45And he almost didn't know what to do. You could just see he was like delirious. Like it almost seems like you pass out. Yeah. Must be a pretty cool feeling. It's a pretty cool feeling. And Punk's had more experience with this feeling than I have. But I feel like, and this is something I was just talking about. One of my favorite wrestlers told me as things started to take off for me. yeah he said and this is right around wrestlemania 39 40 right there in the spot and he told me that you're on the treadmill now the reactions are going to be through the roof the it's always going to don't take it for granted right remember the first time that they went nuts and treat every time like it's the first time that they went nuts and it shocks me how right he was as far as when you, when you find this, whatever this elusive thing is that they like about you, it's the most beautiful thing ever because then all the flips and the dangerous stuff you're talking about.

44:47Yeah. When you do it, it matters so much more. Like that's why this discussion about moves over moments. No, and that's not the discussion. If you have that connection and you do that really cool thing they like to see, that's box office and that's real that's just a it's just that's the whole that's the whole thing and and all because you mentioned unreal and now i really want to see this episode i think one of the time of you that i know right you've seen it you've seen all five i think one of the things that presents itself for wrestlers that hardcore fans may not be thinking but the really smart smart smart super geniuses as i call them, you know, your Michael Hayes's and your Mr.

45:29Heyman's, there's work that can happen within the work. Yeah. If you say, Hey, this is all real. This is look at this. Then it starts to become hard to figure out, wait, how, wait, no, that part's real. And that's where you can do work within the work. So you can still, again, the word that no one can ever tell me what it means. You can still do kayfabe. You really can. It's just different. And that's the fun experiment we get to take as we lift this veil but we cover this thing up i don't know you know i just i think it presents options that wrestlers and maybe the hardcore fans were a little worried about oh no they're going to expose it all and maybe we expose this part but maybe there's a whole other part you didn't see yeah but think about like what was that documentary they did about bret hart wrestling with shadows one of the greats uh yeah which we cribbed some of that for the vince mcbendoc but the behind the scenes stuff after the match that was like holy shit I can't believe somebody filmed this so here's my question for you do you think that was a documentary or do you think that was part of it so it sounds like you have a theory of this whenever I tell somebody high level confidential stuff I use Chris who's in the corner has probably heard me say this I say Brett Sean level I have never heard from either that it wasn't as real as it possibly could get.

46:57And maybe it was, it certainly ended up being real, no doubt. However, I have questions. There was a documentary crew backstage at a company that never ever allows anything like that. There's mics in the room. Hmm. This is amazing. Conspiracy. You've just activated conspiracy bill. He's about to take off his sweatshirt. To me is always the work within the work. And Shawn Michaels was my favorite wrestler growing up. And I'm probably sitting here making him mad. He's still my favorite wrestler. Yeah. But then you get to him and Hogan when they wrestle at SummerSlam. And they're like, oh, you can tell he's mad at Hogan.

47:34Oh, when he was overselling all the moves. Right. But is he? Or does this just seem like the one real thing on the show where you knew everything else was fictional? Two things that would be countered. Conspiracy Bill loves this. the loogie that Vince McMahon spat at or Bret Hart spat at Vince was disgusting and looked like a giant oyster and nailed Vince that's the worst bump Vince has ever taken if that was a bump second, Vince did get cold cocked and wobbled out and had a black eye I don't know how they would have would have faked that one well it's pro wrestling, you wouldn't have faked it right again, so if the whole thing was a word from beginning to end then part of it is he has to hit him.

48:19We're talking about you, Saul, Ria, and Bianca talking about there's no way to pull that. It's coming. It's coming. And I mean... This is great. You really blew my mind with this one. I wasn't prepared. I don't even want to do the podcast anymore. I just want to go on Reddit. So growing up around my dad, I always, when something would happen on TV that felt like a shoot, as we say, I'd be sitting literally front of the TV, as they say, like what, crisscross applesauce, whatever. watching the tv i have my hasbro figures even though i was way too old that figures at that point i'm watching and uh he'd be behind me and i'd always look back like awesome and he just always smile ear to ear and i felt like in that smile i could tell he knew they were doing some high level work and the whole world was doing exactly what they needed to do and i was like his litmus test i was his test on fergie because we're talking about sean again and i i don't mean to i i love sean so much but he didn't understand why i liked sean michaels because he he was he was past his run he was just dad yeah uh but he oh that's funny he was like critiquing some of your choices so he never take my joy away though he'd always ask like what do you like about him oh my are you kidding look at him he's smaller and leaner but he's jacked and he's he's able to wrestle these big guys yeah are you kidding all the chicks like him and like yeah the whole and and he never tell me otherwise he just and then i remember wrestlemania 12 brett sean they go the hour and i'm so disappointed like my guy didn't win again yeah again and then oh here comes they're gonna go 15 more minutes and again i looked at my dad smile ear to ear and i thought yeah this is they got me they got me and they just i don't know these could all be good to conspiracy theory, they could all be true.

50:15They could all be total shoots. They really could. But the way I look at it is anything and everything that happens in the ring, I always look at it with a... That feels like it was part of it. One of the best ones ever was CM Punk when he sat down cross-legged. Oh, the pipe bomb! And did the... Went after Cena in a real way and then people were mad and I still don't know how much of that was real and how much of it was talked about beforehand. I like with the pipe bomb for example I always even though we're getting into it now I actually if it's so good I almost don't want to know right if it's so good oh hey the rest of that show oh that seemed normal but this is they're going to a place I wasn't expecting then I don't need to know it's like the magic what was your first one because my first one was when Killer Khan broke Andre the Giant's leg and then they got a whole thing about it And then finding out way later and working in the documentary that it was actually an accident, Killer Khan felt really bad.

51:17And I was like, oh, man, why did they ruin this for me? I thought he did it intentionally. I don't know if I had a, I know, for example, Sting got his ribs broken by Vader in the strap match. Oh. But after I saw him and he was good, normal, but he was also leaving for a while. And then I asked my dad in the car, like. Oh, the old. he had to leave for a while anyway so injury i asked for a while well what's happened you know what will he do he's like oh he's just gonna drink milk and the bones will heal it was just a terrible answer to come back so yeah uh but i again so i'd get to the shows as a kid doug dillinger who was just on tv the other night wcw's famous security guard used to knock on goldberg's door yeah doug was like my guy he'd always print me this oversized laminated backstage pass and i'd never want to be backstage.

52:09I wanted to go sit. I'd go find an empty seat and I wanted to see. I just didn't care for the mystery of it. Because I could tell there's something off. Like all these guys are shaking Dusty's hand and they're playing cards. Something's off. But I didn't want to know. It's still magic to me. You know what was a tough one in the mid 80s was when Hacksaw Jim Duggan and I think it was the Iron Sheik got pulled over together. That was in high school and I was like, why were those guys together? Most of them, one of them must not have had a car and maybe the other guy was giving him a favor. Yeah, you give yourself all the reasons.

52:44I was trying to justify it in my head. So you missed, I mean obviously because you were too young, but you missed when Dusty's Apex. So most of Dusty's Prime is me watching it on VHS. Right. I didn't know how. I missed most of it too because I was in the WWF part of the country. And you would see him sometimes and I, you know, but I just the week to week stuff that made him so great it was one of the best mic guys ever i didn't know how i missed it over dusty was until we did a show wcw did a show at the omni in atlanta yeah and he was the executive producer and i i was not eight i mean at that point i should have started to figure things out but sting went out the back door to go to his car and as we went to step behind him my dad kind of threw his hand in front of me he's like just give him a second don't you know give him a second it was strange and they reacted like crazy for staying and i'm thinking like that's so cool man look at that all the fans out there what a cool job oh because he knew and then my dad went out there yeah and these people lost their minds yeah and i dusty dusty and i just like i couldn't believe it like i get choked up about it thinking about it today i couldn't believe like what like tell me more because we lived in this really snooty part of uh georgia east cob it's like Laguna Beach without the beach.

54:05So the wrestlers, my dad, we were like the Adams family. We, he'd mow the, he'd mow the lawn and his DR trunks with Ray-Bans that his head was too big for that are like pulled into the side of his head and the bleach blonde hair and Gabe Simpson, uh, you know, from the Braves was on the other side of the neighborhood and he was like the real sports guy. And then we were the goofy entertainment side of the other neighborhood. But I just didn't know because parents would ask me about my dad and I had no clue. And then I started looking into our own VHSs and old school reels and all this stuff, seeing the Florida stuff, seeing all the Crockett stuff.

54:44Yeah, because it's not like baseball or something where you just look up his stats on baseball reference and be like, oh, dad hit 400? It really was Atlanta, the city. You know, Omni and I don't go there anymore, but Lenox Mall, man, he'd walk into Lenox Mall. and I mean, a riot would start. He was going to Atlanta, Hartsfield-Jackson, the airport, all the Delta Redcoats rushing him through. I mean, no shots fired at Atlanta, but you could argue he's the best champion they've had in the last 50 years. The sports teams haven't done great, right? It's a tricky sports. It's a little tricky. I'm a Dawgs fan, so it's always good to cheer for the Dawgs.

55:23Always good. Listen, the Braves are going to do okay. You have a weird, what's your pro football team? You have something weird. I'm an Eagles guy. Yeah, I didn't get that part. So it's real easy. And you'll be like, I am college football. This is my favorite thing. Love college football. Was so pumped when Joe Tess came to do commentary because I've listened to him a hundred times. But pro football is, my sister cheered for the Cowboys, my oldest sister. Loved the Cowboys because my family was all Texans, really minus me. So I'm like a fake Texan kind of. But by the time I was older, the Cowboys weren't the Cowboys like that.

55:59anymore. The Falcons. Are you fair weathered it? Oh, I continue to fair weather. This is how easy I am. The Falcons as a kid, not great. Jamal Anderson doing the dirty bird. There you are. Places losing their mind. I'm in. I'm in. I'm a Falcons fan. Doesn't go the way we think. Okay. You auditioned a new team. So Michael Vick shows up. Michael Vick season tickets sell out. I was Michael Vick is number seven. Jersey's everywhere. It's Michael Vick. That goes really terribly poorly to say the least and then really did lose like the French lose a lot of the franchise then okay Matty Ice makes it to the Super Bowl okay all right Arthur Blanks on the field okay it's uh-oh uh-oh and it's at that point get the helmet behind you oh my gosh yeah so well Brady's great so you're gonna you're gonna hate everything about what I'm gonna say that's at that point where I just said, if Atlanta gets there, I'll be there.

56:56But I'm not against them, but I'm really not going to get on the four of them train. So Tom Brady becomes my favorite quarterback. Okay. Okay, so Tom, I go to the COVID Super Bowl just to see him throw the ball one time when he's with Tampa Bay, which is an amazing story. One season and they won a Super Bowl, whatever it may be. But this is how easy I am. I go to do media for WrestleMania 40 at the stadium for Philly. and this is a massive, massive sports franchise. Yeah. They rolled out the red carpet for me. They did, they let me have a room in the stadium. They had all this media coming in.

57:30They gave me all these jerseys and they gave me all this stuff for my daughter. An eagle, all this, that moment. Kids gifts. Kids gifts. Kids gifts are a great way to steal somebody. 100 % and I knew I was going to be wrestling in the center of that field. Yeah. The next year, and I had a feeling, I was betting on myself, but praying, too i had a feeling i was going to be in the main event yeah so forever the city of philadelphia because wells fargo is actually my favorite arena which is right in the sports complex there um that is that's going to be that's my wrestling other hometown is philly i feel bad for the seven nfl teams you didn't root for yeah well in the course of that journey i i really wanted uh i wanted to root for a lot of people but listen it's like wrestling you get behind somebody yeah you gotta win and a winning season would work for me you just gotta win um but yeah philly they became my team yeah i'm trying to think what wrestler i've stayed loyal to the entire time you do usually bounce around yeah shane gillis the comedian uh he's a big phillies guy i mean eagles guy he came backstage and he's all eagles up and i i think it's on record now that i'm i'm on board with the eagles that's my team i'm going but it's not i haven't been born and raised you know that way so i was really hoping he didn't call me on any uh eagle nation stuff you know like right you need to do like a little backstory i need to i need to look in real quick before we started talking football but it was really cool to see because he's so into them and i they did become my team i mean the fact that i got to wrestle right there on the 50 yard line and the biggest match of my life and yeah the you know wwe's biggest event ever and that uh yeah i'm linked to that stadium and that franchise i'll allow the seven favorite thank you thank you you know it's funny you're talking about dusty having all this old stuff there are all these pockets of wrestling happening all these different ways in the 70s and 80s and like even you think like jerry lawler is just huge in memphis right and that specific area he's a god and your dad's a god and like basically the entire south yeah but then when we did the um we did the vince doc one of the revelations and i thought i knew most of the stuff at this point but the revelation that Vince was choosing between Dusty and Hulk and wanted Dusty first and Dusty didn't want to go and you were interviewed in the doc you talked about it but shocked me it's a pretty fascinating sliding doors do you think Dusty I talked about this with Shoemaker ironically after Hulk died on my podcast and we were talking about the three things that basically needed to happen for WWE to blow up which was cable TV Vince getting aggressive trying to beat everybody else.

1:00:11But then Hogan. Yeah. Does it happen with Dusty, you think? Gosh, I feel like the only thing I could think against him is the accent. So one of the things that Vince actually told me, I didn't believe the story when my dad told me the story. Again, like - And then wrestling lore, you never know what to believe. My dad telling me he was slotted for the spot, walked out of the hotel room, never came back because Vince had booked recording studio time. They were going to make an album with Dusty. Wow. All right. I thought this is complete dad nonsense. Years later, Vince tells me the exact story.

1:00:50Tells me how mad he was. Dusty walked out of the hotel room on me and I'm thinking, what? He really was in line to do it. However, part of the story, he didn't say it in a mean spirited way. He said, but it worked out better that I got Hulk and that your dad got to go do Jim Crockett promotions, help build WCW up from the NWA, him and Rick and everyone, of course, involved and all the great talented people they'd had. I think it worked out better. I don't know the answer to that, but I think Hogan was... more of the now than maybe I think he made more sense with the Stallone-Schwarzenegger kind of...

1:01:29That era. Let's fight. Let's have these superheroes that basically fight the villains. He just made more sense. I think a lot of it, you could literally chalk it up to Dusty's subverting your expectations with his look was one thing. But the look at the time and where it was going, especially if you look at the AWA, which most people don't realize, Hulkamania and St. Paul at the AWA was happening. So I think it was probably the right call. uh dusty had a different delivery a different way of talking people in and and hogan was stallone arnold and dusty was a little at the tail end of his prime right he was he had he had beat himself up he was moving through dusty's real prime is there's very very little footage of his real not prime but his hottest stuff is florida a championship wrestling from florida with early mid 70s yeah gordon soley and pax song and harley coming in and that was unbelievable i mean they were scalping tickets this is the bucks are you know this is tampa's main sport was was really championship wrestling from florida at this this brief onset with the armory and the grams funny it's crazy yeah um the only way you would know is even happening was the wrestling magazines which of course i was always going through in the news oh yeah and they would just have these little articles or photos and that was it.

1:02:52There was no video. I think, I also think too, dad was really proud of the three in the garden with superstar. I think he wanted to walk off on the three. I did the three in a city I thought would eat me up, you know, chew me up and spit me out in New York. And they loved me and they took me. I'm good. I'm not going to overstay my welcome. I think he was, when Florida would make those trades, Eddie Graham would make trades with Vince Senior. I love when they used to do that. They were just like, I'll send you, just make sure he doesn't get pinned. Send touch and touch. Do whatever you want. Just make sure he leaves with a title or whatever it may be.

1:03:30They had that trust, Vince Senior and Eddie Graham. And I just thought he probably looked at it because he was so proud of those three. I knew about those three matches before I knew about many things with him because that moment with him. Is there a video of those or no? MSG? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think there is. I remember seeing at least one of them. Yeah. The first one, and I think the bull rope is on there too. The ropes are loose as hell. Superstars flying all over the place. I can't believe how much video there is of the seventies and eighties now. Yeah. Like my whole childhood is on there basically, but stuff you just assume would just disappear and you never even know about it again.

1:04:06Those garden ones are fun to watch. One of the things that was amazing with him was how athletic he was, your dad. like he was like the most deceiving athlete i wonder like what other did he play sports in high school played everything and i remember i got really hot at there's another wrestler who was he did this interview and he'll never know this and he did this interview years ago where he was like you know it's not like dusty was some sort of athlete and i wanted to explain to him like buddy the whole point was he was an athlete he didn't look like one and he could do a standing dropkick.

1:04:38He was the best basketball player I'd ever seen in my life. Yeah, he just seemed to exceptionally coordinate. He was just, he didn't look it. Isn't there a video of him playing basketball? There's some charity game or something, right? He looks like, he's like Charles Barkley just flying by everybody. Charlotte Police Department. And if you ask, you ask like Lex Luger or Sting who are both in it just running up and down the court. Just a lot of like post-ups where he's just if you ask him about it he said that dusty had a meeting before where he said if we lose to the police you're all fired and then they just they just went for it and all these just shots this is it was a real bummer that that video exists and here's why uh fanatics who wwe and fanatics have this great partnership right they had me do the fanatics fest yeah physical events oh no on the same day i'm doing a signing and photo ops and stuff like that and to me when you meet the fans it's the coolest thing on earth it's my favorite thing i could do it all day long if i complain about getting up early by the end of it i'm the happiest i've ever i already feel the excuse coming oh i'm just it's the excuse you just heard ready i go out on the one i was worried about was basketball because i'm thinking like well there's footage everywhere today there's footage of everything in every corner i'm in my suit and i'm thinking in my suits a disaster i'm I'm not going to not try, though.

1:05:59The suit's tough. I can't say I didn't try. I kind of tried. I did not just bone it. And I miss every single shot. That's where you blame the pictorial. I could. I just don't have the same motion yet. I was legit hot at WWE Talent Relations for a minute. Right. Guys, the wrestler out there who they already think is an athletic, you can't do that to me. And I didn't, I never said any of this because all of this is my fault. I made like one great, like slap shot, hockey shot, which nobody got footage of, uh, did terrible in the football skills, golf skills bombed, but basketball where they're seeing all these clips of dusty, just float like a butterfly and these beautiful layups and this jumper he had.

1:06:44And then I'm out there and it looks like my legs don't like, I, it's so bad. And the guy, the MC is going, all right, all right. Okay. Let's get it. All right. Let's get up for Cody. Let's get him one. Let's get him one. And it's so like, I couldn't make, I couldn't get in there. It was so bad. Yeah. But yeah, Dusty was a deceivingly good athlete. Did he save a lot of his stuff? Cause you mentioned like you had the journals. Do you have like this? I have a chest of things from his, I have a team for the charter Oak Buffaloes, uh, the Patriots. He went to camp. So he's even going back there. So I've got a program from, uh, Patriots where he's listed on the team.

1:07:23actually. I've got a lot of his baseball stuff because baseball was his better sport and my nephew now, Kellen, is kind of following that baseball journey and he's got skills from his dad and pops as well. What about the stuff from the 70s and 80s? In terms of his wrestling stuff? Yeah. People just threw that shit out back then and they didn't think to keep it. I have a lot of stuff. I'm trying to think if we got real good from the 70s. I think the favorite thing I have is a photo album. The photo album was a personal photo album. So it's like him and Dick Murdoch on the boat. Oh, wow. Gone from Victoria to, you know, Vancouver.

1:08:02And then there's Hogan just randomly in the background as a young wrestler that you, it's these really fun him, Ric Flair, when Ric Flair wanted to be rambling Ricky Rhodes, when he was just breaking in the business and he weighs, I don't know if you ever saw a player in the seventies pre the back end. Oh, yeah. She doesn't even look like the nature boy at all. So those photos I have, we've got some reels, stuff like that. Anything that I find really valuable, I actually will send to Ben Brown at WWE, who's the archivist. Yeah. Because it's sitting in my basement. It's better that you, I could always get it back.

1:08:35I just want, it's better that somebody takes care of it. Because if you go to the warehouse in Stanford, I mean, they've got. Oh, they have like seven Hall of Fames in there. Right. And the things you don't know are valuable. You open up and it's Pat Patterson's booking journals. This is the most valuable thing in here, guys. It's just, it's in the corner. You know, just there's some real special stuff. I remember when did the Andre thing, they brought us back and it was like, here's Andre shorts from wrestling. And you're like, ah, I got a good Andre one. Okay. I can't confirm or deny that Dusty was ever the midnight rider.

1:09:04I should preface it with that. But if he was the midnight rider, the midnight rider as a ruse to get people off his scent, other midnight riders would show up. Hey, I know it's you, Dusty. And then the next thing you know, there'd be Andre the giant. Yeah. Or someone who looks like him wearing a Midnight Rider. Oh, it can't be Dusty. Right. This guy, this isn't, no, this isn't the guy who's been winning these matches. So when I was younger, I went downstairs and I put on a Midnight Rider mask in my basement. And it was the size of this table. And I remember as a kid thinking, oh, that's what, my head will be that big when I grow up.

1:09:39Not realizing that that was an oversized Giants. Andre the Giant's Midnight Rider mask. His size eight and three-fourths head. Unreal. unreal um because my sister has more memories with him than i do with andre because him and dusty were pretty close but that's one that i mean when anyone describes him the type of giant he was he was a real giant that's for sure so you come in wwe you're there for like i don't know nine ten years yeah 2007 and then they trap you with the stardust gimmick everybody knows all these stories at this point but did you did you start feeling like this this ain't happening for me or were you thinking this is going to happen for me and I'm in the wrong spot and I need to fix and solve this?

1:10:24Man, I kind of - Because I remember the stardust part. I was like, oh man, I don't know if this one's going to work. I think I took pride in the first like six months, year, which it should have only lasted six months, a year. I think I took pride in, hey, this is like the wrestler opportunity to make the most of something. The classic, okay, you got chicken shit, you're going to turn it into chicken salad. The classic, every wrestler who was ever good took the thing and ran with it. You know, Polka Dots is a great example on the old man. I think I took pride in the beginning and then it still felt like a thing that, oh no, I'm locked out.

1:11:05Do you start looking at the roster and going, all right, that guy, I'm not getting by him. I had a list of all the roster, the show I was on. And like next to Dolph Ziggler's name, I remember I wrote abs. I had these, it was a list of things that I thought, all these guys are better than me. Yeah. And I didn't realize the worst thing I was doing was competing with those guys was not the answer. I was feeling sorry for myself, super pity party all the time. I was losing my relationship with people I'd worked years prior. I'd wrestled Triple H at a SummerSlam as part of Legacy. and now we can't even get two words between each other backstage i was really just kind of developing into a bad apple and no doubt the booking was terrible oh bad chemistry guy yeah but so everything was going bad and i was and i i think i even wrote it i i was starting to hate a place that i loved and maybe the most mature thing i could do was i'm gonna leave and hold on to the good stuff here no doubt there's plenty of the booking is terrible there's plenty of issues here but also I'm not helping myself at all.

1:12:11I'm becoming the worst me. I, as I get older, I take more and more of it on me than I do put it on, you know, Vince or Hunter or whomever. I, I try to put more on me, uh, about it. But I think the thing that bummed me out the most was I talked to my dad every day. Yeah. And I told you, he babied me and thought I was just so good. And, uh, I had a great, you know, athletic career growing up as an amateur wrestler. and he just saw things in me that I guess I didn't see. And that was the thing I was most ashamed of was that that happened and then he died. So my dad didn't get to do any of the good stuff for his dad.

1:12:53Virgil Sr., the plumber, you know, he passed away before the American Dream had took over and really even got a good start. I think he'd had a couple matches and getting beat up by Fritz in Texas and stuff like that, but he hadn't had his run yet or even a first run, whatever it may be. That's the thing that bummed me out the most is I wanted to give my dad the WWE championship. There's nothing fake about that story and that quest. I, this was the thing you didn't get. I'm going to be the one to get it for you and we can have it. And I, to this day, I still feel like immense shame over, he just missed everything.

1:13:27Like I, I couldn't get out of that spot. I felt trapped. I was trapping myself. uh god bless brandy for putting up with me during that period of time and uh i needed to get out i've heard nick con say before i had to go away to to come back and be seen as an adult and i don't know if i if i see it that way um but there's certainly some truth to that i was a kid when i started there i was 20 years old when wwe hired me and i well sometimes you have to think outside the box and you're on your own well it was i felt that way by the way when i I got my, I left this. Where's the Boston Herald? They're over there.

1:14:05When I left that place, I had to figure out how to write a column. Yeah. And I'm just on my own. I just kind of had to fit, but it made me better. It made me ready for the next thing. You probably had some of that. Well, you bet on yourself. But you also had the, you have to start thinking like you're booking everything. You're figuring out everything. There's a strategy piece that you probably hadn't really considered before. I used to strategize in my mind and the thing I'd always find myself saying, and I hate saying this, but this is during Stardust, I'd always find myself saying, I'm smarter than these people.

1:14:35I'm smarter than this. Why can't I get out of this? All of these guys taught me stuff. I worked with them all. On a peer level, they taught me stuff and I can't, somehow none of it's working. I can't, so when I left, it became this kind of amalgamation of all the things I'd learned from Dusty, from John, from Randy, from Hunter, from Sean, from Undertaker, all these guys who I wrestled And, and in the end, it's kind of like you're talking about figuring out writing this column in the end. I feel like I, it, it had to be me. It just clicked. Yeah. Maybe it was all that help. Maybe it was all the feedback finally come to one, but, but in the end it has to be my voice.

1:15:14It has to be what I want to do. And, and, uh, yeah, you needed some momentum too. That wasn't just, this is the Rhodes kid. And yeah, you needed, you created your own thing. Yeah. It was really cool and different. You bet on yourself. Yeah. the promotion you had felt different than wwe and in like these little different ways and then you know it just was a home run nobody had really challenged the wwe like that and what 20 years no i mean since since the doors closing on wcw yeah but that was like that was a lot that was a walking corpse for three years exactly very short-lived in a sense and for me i was very almost volatile in how I came at it.

1:15:57I had love and reverence. You were like, this is my one chance. Yeah. I'm not, there's no way I'm not doing this. Right, I had love and I had reverence for WWE. This is the house that built me. But man, I really wanted, I woke up every day thinking, I want them to know what I could have done. I want them to know what I could have done, which is why it's fun to talk about now because they came back and got me, which wasn't on my, that was never part of the master plan. Sometimes when people look at me like, he always was going back and Nick Khan was always talking about it he was telling he would tell like the freaking gardener I'm getting Cody in a year yeah no I I I had I kept making it appear that I had a plan I had a plan but really I wanted to make as much noise and disrupt as much as I could and I I can't ever think of anything because I was talking about the two things and momentum and all that in the beginning I found some of the best people around me yeah who were feeling the underground elements of that.

1:16:54And really like the three that I'd always cite and I'd feel uncomfortable if I didn't, Matt and Nick Jackson, the Young Bucks and Kenny Omega. That group and Kevin Owens, God bless him. He's probably going to hear this pod. He's responsible for it because he linked us all together. And that connection of my name and my equity and their skills and their moxie and the drive and just that anger that I had and what they had, all of that just set up a situation that couldn't fail couldn't fail and also at the time triple h doesn't realize he's a big part of this because at nxt he's bringing in every good hot gun off the independence yeah so it's not about legacies it's not about tenure at wwe anymore it's about who has the hot hand so it was a matter of like well let's i'm gonna be the hot hand and i don't know if i'm gonna come back with it what are we gonna do and you know we're off to the races with it at that point.

1:17:46But that was a really huge part of all the skills I had combined with really great people around me, really great timing, great timing. And you've never really talked about leaving AEW, but it felt like... It's locked behind a paywall. Yeah, apparently it is. But did you feel like that had a shelf life or was there a moment during that run where you felt like this was home, you're going to be one of the building blocks of this and that was going to be the rest of your life? gosh it's hard to kind of put myself in that spot again but i i i started to get a sense you know michael hayes is really famous for always leave the territory at your hottest i started to get a sense that all wrestling needs change guys are going to go from company to come oh you got to keep it fresh guys are going to go down for a minute then they're going to come whatever it may be I just got the sense that it might be time for me to move into something else and I didn't know what that was I remember thinking oh that'd be crazy to be part of the Royal Rumble to come home yeah because you know I've made another home I got kids at this home basically I got a lot you know but to show everybody because the first meeting I have with Vince and Bruce Pritchard I didn't think I was coming back yeah I was excited to go to that meeting to say, and this is going to sound crazy.

1:19:11I wanted to tell them both. Thank you. I left on crazy, bad terms. No one can ever leave. Like I left because of how I left. I didn't even sign my release papers. Like Chris probably could sue me over, you know, like I was, uh, I, I left it in a terrible place. They let it happen because of probably more respect for my dad than anything. And then I went out and I fought so hard and filled with rage. I mean, I'm smashing the throne. I'm just, I'm bleeding. I'm setting myself on fire. I was just, I don't know, going through it and living it out for everyone who was watching. But I wanted to tell them both, thanks.

1:19:47You guys helped build me and train me. And I took all those skills and I took them everywhere I went. I took them to every company, to every independent, to every, I got to reinvent myself on how I wanted to be here in WWE. I got to be that outside. and that's all I thought it was going to be, a sense of closure, a real sense of thank you so much for lessons I never got to thank you for. And then it turned into be something else by the end of that meeting. But, you know. Was the fear like 2022 at AEW is going to, 2024 is basically going to be the same thing and you're just running back years, but nothing, you're not elevating anymore.

1:20:26You're just kind of, you're kind of here. You can't go here. Gosh, I know that. That was my perception from afar. No, no. Yeah. And I feel like maybe that's, maybe that's a little bit of it. I think I started thinking about writing a book the other day. I've never even really considered writing a book, but we've done some fun stuff. I think it would go well. Right. And I think that's the, I was thinking of what would I say? How, how would I put it? Cause there's clearly bad blood, but there's also clearly respect and love. and in the end the way I kind of see it is if I felt disrespected ever at WWE that's one thing that's a company that was built look at this glass you know that's that's a that's that's the Yankees that's the flagship of it all if I ever felt there you know I was I was a a number on a sheet maybe but feeling disrespected at something I built yeah with with my friends and with us with that we built feeling disrespected there I I wouldn't stand for it and and and I think Brandy and I both uh I'm so blessed to have her it was one of those where it was fuck it like I did way more here than you think and you're gonna find out the moment I'm out the door and I I hate saying that with any sense of anger or rage but I'm like the angriest person you're ever going to meet.

1:21:58I'm always... I'd like to be in the top five. Right, right. When you said that, I was thinking about when I left ESPN, I was like, okay, guys, you're going to say same thing. It made me so ready for the next thing. To me, the greatest... I don't believe in the cold-hearted, backstabby type of revenge. The greatest revenge on earth is success. And I felt like we were sitting on something wonderful, something great a huge potentially with what i was doing with the american nightmare as a bad guy as a good guy as something in between we're sitting on something magic and if i'm not going to do it in the house that i literally with matt nick and kenny built then buddy i'm going elsewhere and uh every day i am so blessed that bruce britchard nick and triple h got me vince got me back because I get to live it out now.

1:22:50I get... You know, it's funny the way you laid it out because I watched the first couple episodes of Netflix has this big Cowboys documentary. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's coming. And it's about the Jerry Jones era. So I made them send me a couple episodes because I want to watch it. You get all the stuff, huh? Well, I just badger people. No, I just badger people. And I break them down eventually. But the Jerry Jones, Jimmy Johnson thing where Jimmy Johnson, he brings him in. He's building through the team, through the draft, he's coaching it, he's doing everything and they have real success. They win.

1:23:23But at some point there's a little bit of a schism and the schism comes down to Jimmy Johnson be like, dude, you brought me here to do all this. Like this is, let me do my thing. And Jerry, as they had more and more success, started to think he was a little more involved with the success than maybe he was and just coincidentally reminded me of your situation maybe i feel like at aw probably similar and it hurts even more when you're tasked to do something when somebody sees it with their own eyes but then i don't look at any of it i said i was really angry and rage i don't look at any of it with really any negativity and here's why i got to be part of wwe again right it all worked out great and i got to be part of wwe we're we're talking about austin and we're talking about hogan two of the greatest ever to lace up their boots and draw people into the arenas and every one of those records has been broken and i got to be in the matches that broke those records i got to stand across from roman reigns at 39 i got to do it again i i i got the quarterback spot at a company where I was last, last in the combine.

1:24:35And I, I am very grateful. That's why I have such trouble articulating. And that's why I want to write this book because no, it makes sense. I'm very grateful for, Hey, okay. This schism happened, but the outcome is I got to be with the biggest game in town. And not only did I get the spot, I got to show them I could do it, you know, cause what are we in now? Three, three years or four. I'll say it more simply. It was a good career move. Good career move. It really was. Yeah, good career move. Although you join in all hell's breaking loose with Vince, which I'm not going to put you in the position to talk about here.

1:25:09You don't want to put my media training to a test. Well, I just like, you're just... Because when you do interviews like this and then people are like, why don't you ask them about this? It's like, because you're going to give a shitty answer. Like, neither of us want to talk about it. It is what it is. You can Google it. Well, sometimes you give a shitty answer and then somebody will ask a follow up and the next answer is even worse. There's no answer here. Vince was there almost 50 years and now he's not. We all know what happened. But you have that and then you get hurt. It's like two things.

1:25:45Fuck. You start to think like, is this my snake bit here? What's going on? And then everyone thinks you're going to win WrestleMania. You don't. yeah but I thought that was kind of really smart in retrospect that you did yeah I think that was well played you'll be the second person uh but probably the first people ever hear this I I had jelly roll on my podcast recently it's it hasn't come out but he I asked him what his like most complete song was I don't know why I thought that was a good question I was like you know where you felt like you were checking every box all your skills and I told him my favorite match is Wrestlemania 39 which is the one where it doesn't happen and uh it was really smart it I I probably would have been pumped to win certainly I gosh to but there's something about that night where things were happening in the arena that had or the stadium that never happened to me he's got me in the guillotine choke yeah and you hear these old timers and god bless them I love them talk about you know just stay right there and the people will react and they'll, when you've seen the amount of cool flips and awesome stuff, sometimes that's, that seems like, I don't know, maybe that's not real anymore.

1:26:58And then in that moment, I remember, I'm just slowly wiggling my head out and I can hear an entire stadium where the sound goes up, start to move. And I thought, oh man, this, they're into this. How blessed am I that they're into this? And it just, when it's that good, it feels completely real. everything seems real Roman is the greatest enemy of my life and I'm trying to climb a mountain that's impossible to climb and that just acoustic moment for me it made it my favorite match of all time that's cool I couldn't tell anyone that though because it is the saddest ending and then like walking right back but yeah it's my favorite match Roman's a good example of somebody who had to eat some shit and it made it better like that's that's a great example but I'm gonna show you guys oh you think you think I got handed this or this was too early fuck you how many years of Roman where he was he was in the the spot that that he was getting booed it was a couple more than a couple it's like three or four he wasn't quite ready yet so but all that's happened but it helped him right and so this is when people today complain about Roman and oh he's barely ever there he's paid so much whatever may I I always think guys do you see what he the run he had yeah who he went through, what he went through.

1:28:14There was probably nobody on earth equipped with it and had the will and drive like a Roman. So if he's decided, hey, I'm coming a few times, I'm going to look great, people are going to lose their mind, Superman punched spear, that's a gift to us. It's a gift when he shows up. I think people forget that, that he basically earned the right to call whatever shots he wants. I think very highly of... He's great in the ring. He's great in person. Yeah. I've been to a lot of these now over the years. Presence is a thing that it's not a stat. Yeah. When somebody comes in and you can feel it, people either have it or they don't.

1:28:58He definitely has it. Yeah. And he had it even when they were trying to... Vince saw it, I think, pretty early. Yeah. This guy has it and he just pushed him out. But I think, ultimately, I think anybody who really makes it, you have to walk out to a 60 to 80 ,000 seat stadium and carry it somehow. He's another one. It's not just music. Yeah. He's, he's another one that reminds me of dusty a little in a sense that his athleticism is also that he could do a whole lot. You're right. Undertaker is the all time example though of athleticism. Undertaker was like fucking Dr. J like when he would do the walking down the rope thing, how many people on the planet could do that?

1:29:36And just the even harder thing is hook the top rope, fall backwards over and land on his feet because he could never come off his feet. But that early 90s Undertaker is out of control. One of the great athletes. How you know is he's positioned as this monster, zombie, killer, what we would assume a heel. Yeah. And then, oh no, people love Undertaker. We're just putting him with bad guys. We don't have to make him a baby. Just put bad guys and the idea. And just there's very few people who ever earn the respect that Undertaker has. And I came to a show at MSG, I think it was 14. Yeah. Goldust. Dustin was wrestling.

1:30:10And he said, when I got there, he says, are you coming backstage? I said, I'd love to. He goes, well, I need you to meet Undertaker before you do that. So that was the thing. I said, hello. And he's super nice. I'm 14. Yeah, he was almost like the bouncer of the entire lacquer room. Bouncer. I always used to, because he's such a cowboy. To me, he was like the sheriff. Yeah. He's legit like the sheriff. So when he shows up at WrestleMania 40 in my match for any younger fan, that's like, but what? Undertaker? To me, it made perfect sense. Sheriff's coming in to even the odds, help out a good guy in need.

1:30:44It was just, yeah, he had more respect than most people I've ever seen in a locker room. I mean, to this day, he's such a great locker room leader. More fun to be a bad guy or a good guy?

1:30:56Everyone's going to tell you a bad guy. but I think that's because they haven't experienced what good guy can really be. Bad guy is fun because you can fall on your face and make a spot out of it. Bad guy is fun. You can stumble on your words in a promo and make a moment out of it. Bad guy is fun because traditionally a bad guy leads the match, but a good guy or good girl that they are actually invested in, that they came, they're wearing your shirt, they've got signs. There's all this argument always about, oh, Cody, turn heel, will he turn? I don't think so. They can boo all they want if certain people decide, like, yeah, Cody's a heel to me.

1:31:37But I don't think I'd ever turn because it's just too much of a connection with those who were on board with me. I think it's harder to be a good guy. So that's the thing. I think it's harder, but once we got on there. It's harder to pull it off, I guess I should say. and for a while they were extinct because they just wanted anti-heroes and social like edgy so yeah tv and wrestling always marry each other oh my gosh yeah an edgy social kind you know yeah all everybody every heel out there has got the best social media and the best one liners that leave most baby face like dick in hand oh what do i do you know what i was like yeah so you've got to be a really good baby face you have to kind of rise above it and that's that's that's very hard jayuso i look at as probably a great example is most so so popular and it's not easy it's it's not easy to make that connection with them and i feel like it's even harder to keep it because baby faces get beat up a lot on tv uh and to me it's just such it's such a gift i i certainly yeah you're selling the villains yeah it's the uh the first when so bob backland when i got into wrestling yeah he was champ for like five years he was yeah and he was like the perfect guy for back then because he was just the vessel to have all these awesome bad guys that they had because they had all like they had great villains and uh you know he was all american guy and he had the crew cut um but it's hard to have runs like that seen it in forever but even as it was happening the crowd was like he was polarizing in the moment it's it's funny today because like john for so long was booed in certain markets, cheered in others.

1:33:15He really was so unique in the, you felt strongly about him. You weren't getting up and leaving. You were going to boo, you were going to cheer. Today, I feel like we were so, our attention spans are a little shorter. When they start booing a good guy, people think it's time for a, no, no. Yeah, flip them. To me, to me, I turned. Yeah, I just call it an away game. I always know too. I know when it's an away game. I'm like, hey, we're going into their arena tonight. It's an away game. at wrestling John right now heading into SummerSlam that freaking traitor right right so so how dare he kick you in the balls how dare and then how dare he make a shirt for every city featuring every sports team and every we have to celebrate the farewell while he's in this nefarious state of mind that's why on Smackdown this past week uh how dare he sully his legacy Well, so we talk about like, what's, what's real, what's not.

1:34:09I'll tell you something that says as real as it gets last week on SmackDown, give me carte blanche. What I want to say in my promo, what I said in my promo was very simple. Just be the real John Cena. They're already happy for you. They already love you. You spent years building equity with them. I could care less. Stop. If you got to boo me, if you say, let's go Cody, Cody sucks. If you, I'm fine. Well, I'll, I'll take it. I, I, I got raised in the industry to be able to take it, but let's be you. If this is your last SummerSlam, come like it's your first be you. And, and then I don't have to stare at a sea of nothing's weirder than you're my favorite wrestler.

1:34:47Somebody telling me you're my favorite wrestler when they're wearing the entire Cena uniform, the entire farewell. I'm like, all right, well, yeah, didn't help me tonight, bud. So for me, it just, I want him to be John and, and, uh, I don't know. He's the most unique soul there is in the industry. So we'll see what we get. That was way too magnanimous because that guy is a jerk. He sneak attacked you. Can't believe he let you down. He let down all the senior fans. Travis Scott kind of took some liberties, didn't he? No, no. Travis Scott, I feel like if you're a wrestler and you can't take getting slapped in the face, you're not that great a wrestler.

1:35:28Okay. However, the mark just looked really bad. So it was one of those where I couldn't the next few days. Everybody's like, what happened? Right. I don't know. I don't know. And there's a clear fan video of just, it just happens. It's just part of it. Do you get mad that the Paul brother is actually good at wrestling? I think it's bad for wrestling. He just steps in and he's like immediately doing crazy moves. I don't know. If he had just stepped in and could immediately be as good as he was, I'd be furious. Could he put the work in? Oh, one of the hardest working people I've ever seen. And the other thing is, really, if you consider him a heel, that's okay because the guy is a complete, like you keep saying jerk.

1:36:06Logan is as prickly as it gets. However, his story of doing the work is as accurate as it gets. And his secret weapon is Shane Helms. Shane Helms, who's a producer at WWE, they're attached at the hip. They're talking wrestling. They're training wrestling. He took it as seriously as anybody ever. I have a feeling. He's good. he's going to end up being world champion or WWE champion at some point and the internet will explode and we'll all be fine. We'll all, we're going to be okay, but he is very special. As legitimate as a prick as you could meet though, in a sense like, oh, this is it. He needs a slap.

1:36:44Cheers to this, but I love having him on the team. He is as valuable. I mean, he is a massive asset to WWE. Going to be a future champion for sure. What's the maddest you've ever been in the ring at somebody as you guys were going back and forth? And it got actually, in a way, where you're like, I'm going to actually fight this guy after we're done. Maddest I've ever been? Have you had one? Because they did this. They covered this on Unreal where it got a little testy with Charlotte and what's her face? I'm blanking. Who did she wrestle? Tiffany. when they got they it kind of went back and forth and it got to a point where triple h actually had to get mad at them on the show is that that's in the show is it unreal or is it that's an unreal kind of from a conspiracy level what do you think i don't know conspiracy bill bought off total real it seemed relatively real brent sean like where do you where do you put it it was real you're saying seem mostly real okay okay uh mine was an eight out of ten real eight out of ten real okay mine was not even in the ring i did commentary me and my brother did commentary on a tag match as the roads brothers and they had told jbl and i don't know who the they is but they had told jbl to eat me up on commentary and oh he did and it was like a roast it was not even like a roast i remember he said he asked me a question i said i replied with honestly i'm about to make my answer he goes no I want you to lie to me.

1:38:11And then he just kept going. And I'm again, nothing makes me feel weirder than when you're supposed to protect the good guy. Yeah. But you, I, but then also it's like, Hey, if you're, if you don't know how to defend yourself, you're not going to be that good of a good guy or whatever it may be. I learned a lot. JBL is one of my favorite people ever, but I remember that night. That's the most I've ever thought. Okay. Uh, you just want to hit him over the head with something. Well, I just wanted to explain like, what, what's the point? Are you and I wrestling? Are you, are you, are we wrestling?

1:38:40Cause if we are, that was great. So he's just testing you. Yeah. And he tested me and I'm okay with that test. And I failed that test. Now that I look back at it, I'm totally okay with that test. I'd probably want to test somebody too, but I failed that test, which again, as older I get, the more I started to put the impetus, I put it on me that this was, these were my screw ups. I said I was ready and I couldn't handle JBL on commentary. Maybe I wasn't ready. How do you do, you don't have to name a name, but how do you do a program and plan out stuff with somebody you don't like? Like if you're doing a match, like you're doing like a six week arc with somebody and you actually have to spend some behind the scenes time.

1:39:17You do it with more love and commitment than you do with somebody you do like. Interesting. Yes. So it's like fake friendship? I mean, Hey man, how you doing? But you like hate the guy. There's just a lot more of when you're talking a lot more of this. so that you know I'm serious. He knows I'm, so that, because, okay, if you come backstage at Raw or SmackDown, you'll see wrestlers shake hands to a level that's like, why, why, you've shaken hands? We've shaken hands three times. Why are we shaking hands? My trainer, Al Snow, I remember him asking me, he said, you know why we shake hands? Thought it was a simple answer.

1:39:58We respect each other. It's about respect. He goes, yeah, you know, that's one of it. He goes, the real reason, though, is we need each other. You're supposed to pick me up, slam me, look like you hate my guts and want to murder me. I'm supposed to get up safely and we're supposed to do that the next night. And you're putting your life in somebody else's hands. You're putting your life in someone else's hands. And WWE, I think, is more of a team-minded unit than I've ever seen before. There are plenty of people who dislike each other. There's plenty of people who I, oh, he's great. Love him. but never has it been more uniform in terms of Hunter is really good.

1:40:36Hunter and Nick are really good about this is the direction. This is the direction. We're a team. We're all going. And that's not just the wrestlers. That's the whole company. Everybody gets on board with the team. So it's really, you just go at it with more love and commitment than you would if it was one of your buddies. Okay. One of your buddies, you can almost like Jey Uso kicked my head off the other night on Raw. It's a replay of it. My whole face moves. It's like a boxing punch. I loved it, right? Yeah. But when you're working with someone that maybe there's not that trust and empathy and love with, then you go at it a little differently.

1:41:10But that makes great TV. Who do you think is next generation, generation below you? So I'm going to say in the 24 to 29-year-old range. To look out for? Who do you have your eye on? Anybody? There's so many guys. By the way, I think Rhea Ripley is incredible. Unreal, huh? and not to plug the yeah no but i mean i really like in person yeah probably the the the most presence of any female wrestler i've seen and also really talented i don't know how old she is i think ria well that's that's good she's probably in her prime though that's good she's a wrestler prime i think ria's but there's no there's no younger one where you're like whoa oh my gosh there's more women training to get it in the business than there are men yeah so right now at the nightmare factory, my school, all my favorite students, I'm waiting for a guy to come along and finally have the skills, you know, um, I'm trying to think of a young up and comer at WWE.

1:42:05Cause there, there are many, cause there's probably some NXT stuff, right? Dominic Mysterio will end up becoming a massive, he already is, but Dom has a connection with the audience and the work is coming. It's, it's kind of reverse. The work is coming, but he gets heat. I got to say, you can feel it in the crowd. He also works with people that are really, he can see some, his father's the greatest example. Yeah. When you were around people like that, you learn things that no one can teach you. Right. And, and other than someone who is, I don't want to use the over word, but somebody who's extremely popular, someone who's over.

1:42:40So Dom is someone definitely to look out for in terms of specialness. My gosh. And then there's just a whole, I mean, if you look at NXT, Oba, who's coming up, Oba's really special um there ricky saints ethan page who's he's another one that if you you meet ethan page you he could be 50 or he could be 25 he's he's he's he's got a really unbelievable uh skill set that's what i like the most about the the wwe currently is that if someone was to move to go we've got people ready we've got people ready now it's going to take time we're talking about roman takes time and takes years my dad used to say it takes two years for a guy to really connect with the audience.

1:43:22Cena will tell you it takes five years for a guy to connect with the audience. That jerk. Right? So that bastard. But, you know, I think we've got a lot of, Sean's really trained a lot of people really right. But there's a lot. So Sean was your guy. He was your favorite? I've talked about him way more on this podcast. He was my favorite growing up. Yeah. Because I went to the Boston Garden WrestleMania when Tyson was the referee. He's sick. And Sean had like basically a broken back. and they did the match. Yeah. And he sells it. He does like, you wouldn't really know. You knew he wasn't 100%, but you wouldn't really know.

1:43:58The match ended, it went dark. But did you know he was 100 %? Hunter did you carry him off? Yeah. Did you know he was 100 % or was that the story going around the building that day? Are you conspiracy billing me again? I think he's the best in the business at giving you something else. I just said, oh, he was sick because my dad on the couch behind me, I heard the kid's really sick and he's pale and he's backstage and they show him, I think it's him, Hunter and China. They're all walking. And then he goes out there and he looks super pissed off. He's also throwing his head into the steel steps with that weird toxic grit we were talking about.

1:44:32He might've had a bad back. He did. I mean, he clearly, he had a broken back. Because he disappeared for like two years. He might've had all those things. He might've had, I think it was bronchitis was the rumor going around in my home. Or he might've just been Shawn Michaels. And creating magic out of magic. Wow, look at you. Yeah. Unreal. I'm telling you really giving us the unreal. That's why if any fan is worried about unreal, the work within the work, I will never, I don't let Chris Van Bleet, who's a wrestling podcast guy. He asked me one time, the scariest question anyone's ever asked me in a podcast.

1:45:02And I, I didn't know how to answer it. He said, you seem like you're always in character. You're always wrestling. You're always talking. Cause are you ever not? And in the moment I realized, Oh no, I think you're really like this. I, right. I think I am too, but I might be too deep in. Andrew Schultz, I do his podcast and he's like, oh, he's just wrestler talking. He's just, and I'm thinking, am I? Am I? I don't know. I grew up in this. It's so hard for me to determine like, where are we at with all this? So yeah, that was a scary question. That was the weird thing. I remember Hunter came in.

1:45:39He's somebody named, what do we call him? Paul, Triple H, Hunter. Like, what do we go with? I say, and I think it's the worst choice. I say Hunter. but then I hear others say Paul but I don't know him as a Paul and then I hear people like hey Trips and I don't think I'm cool enough to hit him with a Trips I don't know yeah so that's like when Magic Johnson's teammates called him Buck like he had this extra nickname that it was like a special nightclub I just say Hunter yeah he came in to see us when I was at ESPN Grant we did a pod and just being around and watching the different version of him I was like, oh, I think this is probably who he actually is.

1:46:17Like the low, soft-spoken kind of intense guy. Yeah. But then you see him in wrestling. He's a completely different human. You seem like you're around the same at all times. I mean, I'm a big fan of his. When I left, I was doing things to, I tried to steal a lot of his playbook in terms of the EVP role, for example. I've modeled a lot of stuff after Hunter, but I find it, if I don't ever have the chance, this is a perfect chance to, he is probably one of the top three, he's one of the most important people in my professional life. And it's like, I didn't know he was until so recently. Well, the first time you left, wasn't he like kind of shocked?

1:47:05Yes. He's like, really? Shocked. And he was one of the first people to text me when I won a world title outside of WWE. be, Hey, good job. He had no reason to be watching that show. And maybe just the fact that he kept tabs on me, but all that kind of shame I had over not being able to do have this run that I've been so blessed to have that my dad never saw. I, I do take some solace in the fact that I get to be around Hunter because they were tight. So, you know, I, if my dad was to wake up and walk in the room and see Hunter and I hold my hand up at WrestleMania or at these press events or things of that nature, there's something special about that.

1:47:49I don't know if it was destiny or what, but Hunter's been extremely, I watch him at all times almost because I love how he operates at WWE. I love how he runs the team and part of me inside wouldn't mind another shot at, I'd love to try behind the scenes stuff, right? Well, if you get behind the scenes again, I'm just the two championship belts are too confusing so like a world title and then the world it's like just call one of them like the WCW belt just like make it easier in my head I'm old you need one title huh I like the old days when it was the WWF title and the Intercontinental title and we had the two titles you're not wrong do you know the reason why two titles it's not wrestlers and it's not the booking you know why we have to have those for the two different shows For the two different shows.

1:48:39It's their fault. Well, we want the champion on our show. All right, well, this is that champion. Can you imagine if the NBA did this? Where it's like, Oklahoma City won the title, but what's the thing they do in Vegas? The Commissioner Cup? Oh, yeah. The Commissioner Cup was elevated. It was the same level. And it's like, there's the Commissioner Cup title. Milwaukee Bucks. I'll say one thing about the two titles that helps us, though. is the guy who's wearing the world title and the guy who's wearing the WWE title always are looking at each other of the thought like, I'm better than you. Or I want to be better than you.

1:49:15I want to, and when you get to a live event, like say you're just doing a non-televised live event, well, who's on last? Right, that's the, so there's a, again, the real competition that sits underneath. How does day one, day two? Because SummerSlam's two days. Yeah. So what's the better day? Because like when I went to WrestleMania, I went to day one. day two is the the prestigious day right or does it they both are so they both are technically main events so that's not a lie when we say oh wrestlemania main event they're both day would you rather be on uh sunday okay uh and that's just again back to old school wrestler toxic i want to be the last thing they see before they go home and uh well i like the two-day thing because i i went to the famous with my son the new york wrestlemania that was i think i'm still there actually i don't the really long one died yeah the one that was like seven plus hours this met life i actually think i'm there still right now yeah those well that's why we have two nights yeah and that was the longest day of my life my son of course loved it didn't pee once and was locked in he was locked in locked in well also i love he didn't pee one time he was he was didn't want to miss one thing um night one there is a if a wrestler's told you're on night one often they might say one thing outwardly but inwardly night one is a huge opportunity because the crowd is prime yeah it's prime and i feel like it makes it so that night two if you're a night two guy it's a lot harder now bar has been set we just saw how are you gonna and then when a good night one guy ends up on night two they're in the same position so there's a beauty to night one as well there really is i i like so i've had four wrestlemania main events my mom only would say it's three because she she doesn't count night one but she's not i count night tough critic yeah well she she's as tough as they get she's she's she's uh i mean she grew up around andre the giant and dusty road so the very little i've ever done has impressed her but when i can get her it's it's pretty solid so you need pretty solid but you need the need the title back uh it's funny when you're around someone who was around the business my dad and married to him the majority of his professional career and still says things like i was sad you lost the title i was sad and then still ask you things like nice you get carried around oh my god it's great for moments like this could have brought it today everyone takes a picture with it but it's sad though when she calls you hey how you doing well good she's still I guess it's real to her I think the worst part is losing the title but then you have to figure out when's the right time to do the the roll out of the ring the walk of shame it's like a roll of shame I yelled at somebody on my walk of shame.

1:52:15Somebody was telling me to go side ramp, which is also lovingly called by production Loser's Lane. And I would rather take a$25 ,000 fine than ever walk side ramp. I will walk up the ramp with my sad face. Because I want to feel every bit of that. Do the look back? Depends. The sad look back, wondering what happened? I think sad look back sometimes that might be their moment. And if sad look back takes away from their moment, I just want to know that I walked down this thing and I'm walking back up it. Now, win, lose, or draw, that's part of it. So many poor, it's never their fault. I apologize to them in advance.

1:53:01If you tell me to go side ramp, you're going to have to hold the show 30 seconds because I'm not going side ramp. As odd as that is, that is where I draw the line. I will not be going side ramp. But that's all, that moment is, it's their moment. You roll out, you know, and we have to go because I kept you too long. But I did want to ask you why managers, why we just don't have more of them. And it feels like the most unexplored terrain in wrestling. Like, why couldn't Shane Gillis do like a three-month, he just starts managing somebody, getting involved, doing stuff on the mic. Like, how did we get away from this?

1:53:37Cindy Lauper, way back when, when she got involved and did a little thing and it was really fun. I don't know why we're not messing around with this more. I think managers, it's a great question. It boils down to nobody wants to train to be a, they don't want to be a manager anymore. For example, Bobby Heenan and JJ Dillon, two of the greatest managers ever. Jimmy Hart and other outstanding. They trained, they could also be wrestlers. They could take a bump. They probably were referees at some point. They were everything. Oh, so if you're a manager, you're going to at some point, take a couple of bucks.

1:54:12Exactly. So today people will be like, well, how do I train to be a manager? You know, you train to be a wrestler. And then maybe wrestling determines that you are a manager and that you can help build somebody up or, or help get heat for somebody or be a, like Bobby Heenan was be a mouthpiece for somebody. I forget about the smoking hot managers. I mean, Miss Elizabeth was an iconic 80s person for all teenage boys. I would love for there to be managers everywhere. Just bring them back. Just experiment. during the dead part of the WWE schedule, I just feel like they should start trotting them out.

1:54:45I'm really trying to think of an example of somebody who would be an outstanding manager. But I mean, here's another reason why, and you're going to hate this answer, but this is a true answer why maybe there's no managers anymore. It is hard to be a manager when Mr. Heyman, when Paul Heyman's on the show, because he's so much better than everyone. But that tells me there should be more managers then. Well, there should be someone trying. there's you know so when we had paul hayman's been involved in some of the best wrestling moments of all time oh and he's partly a mind behind some of these moments but you know and then you had cornett back in the day who was such an outstanding manager for his guys and and really helped i just feel like more guys who get into wrestling schools and go to nxt or whatever i don't be afraid to look into that it doesn't mean it's the end i mean when i was growing up we had Blassie, we had Lou Albano, we had The Wizard, we had Jimmy Hart.

1:55:41There were some bad ones. But then there was Missy Hyatt was popping up in Texas. All those managers you just laid out were there for Macho. Who's going to be Macho's manager? And then instead of picking any of the greats, he picked Liz. I remember she walks in and it's shocking. He didn't go with the ones he had. He had a great gimmick that's sitting there for somebody. I liked when you did your I'm so handsome don't touch my face. Yeah I like that one but I like the super rich I think that's sitting there for somebody the million dollar man in 2025 that gimmick is just sitting there for somebody.

1:56:18Here's here's what it would also take to get a good manager you need a young talent who wants to take care of his manager because often it looks like the manager takes care of the talent on screen. Yeah the relationships behind the scenes you have to make sure your guy gets there. They're older at this point. Your guy gets there. Your guy's okay. He's happy in his life. He's happy to be on the road. I don't know if a lot of young guys are looking for that person that they could have. It's almost like getting a dog. It's very much like, fuck, there's a dog out there. I have a manager. I gotta go everywhere with this guy.

1:56:51That's the thing. If it's gonna work, you've gotta go everywhere. It's like a tag team. If you and I become a tag team, well then we have to drive to the show together. Do you think people in the 80s felt that were like, fuck, I got Captain Lou Albano. 100 % I'm going to fly with this guy. They were showered in a week and a half. Hunter talks about all the managers that Vince suggested that he hated. Yeah. And then ultimately they found China and they were off and running. So it does have to be a good fit. I like the rich guy manager or rich guy wrestler thing sitting there for somebody. Logan Paul with a manager would be really good.

1:57:22Logan Paul would be really great with a manager. Like a former hedge fund crypto guy who cashed out and now he just really wants... Just the word crypto amongst wrestling fans is we're booing. If I ever did a manager, I would have them not... I wouldn't speak. I'd have them speak. I would no longer speak anymore. We've had a couple of... There were a couple of wrestlers that just relied on the manager to talk. Yeah, that's the other thing. That's a big question that there's a whole room of people like, Oh, we forgot about Slick. That was another manager. I think it's okay that you forgot about Slick.

1:57:53He was there. No, no. Slick was a great manager. He had some good ones. There's so many good managers. Yeah. And they should come back. The managers are awesome. My big note, it's a freebie in front of a live crowd. Oh, the manager gets tossed out. The ref gets to do this whole thing. It's a freebie. That's a free reaction. But the guest manager is great too. The Shane Gillis just popping in for two months, doing one back and forth promo where he's just roasting somebody, but then just kind of being around. I think if you get a manager today who's a bad guy manager, the audience needs to let up a little bit on the cancel.

1:58:26They need to be able to get a little buck with it, get a little wild. Because if we're - If we're not able to get heat, then none of this works. Then it's just we're all friends. Just, hey, good guys wrestling, you know? That shocked me. So I went to the Netflix LA in January. Oh, yeah. When Hogan came out and he got booed. Yeah. And he didn't read where the room was and flip, which I thought was, I was like, oh, he's just too old now. Because in the old days, he would have read the room. Yeah. I'd be like, oh, the room's going this way. I'm going to zag and be like, how dare you guys, brother?

1:59:02He powered through. Yeah, because The Rock's done that a couple of times where he's like, oh, the room's going there. All right, I'm just going to zag, which is like, it's like wrestler ESP almost. Right before he went out, Hogan and I, we had a conversation backstage and he had Real American Beer. He was talking about the beer. He had a duffel bag, like a custom Real American Beer duffel bag with a bunch of beers in it. And I wanted to try one of them. I thought, oh, I want to try one of Hulk's beers. and I talked to him and then he decided he was going to give me the whole duffel bag. So I had this whole refrigerated duffel bag and, uh, cause he was there with his son, Nick.

1:59:42And I, I'm so blessed that I got that moment because I thought the beer was good. I thought the beer was good, but my bus driver, thankfully he's not driving, drinking these while driving, but that's his beer. And that bag is still on the bus. It wasn't like a thing that like some swag that didn't make it. That bag is his bag that he's, he's about it. So it was a nice gift I got from him because I didn't you know I didn't know things were gonna go like they did but yeah I got the real American beer duffel bag what was the number one most starstruck you've been by a wrestler it might have been him when he came to WCW when I was a kid because seeing him right I'd only ever seen him really on TV gosh but but I didn't get it it's a real weird answer the most starstruck and more scared I ever was.

2:00:29Oh, man. Dr. Isaac Gakam? That guy was, nope, close. Oh, I say close, but. Shockmaster? Harley Race. Harley Race. Shockmaster was married to my Aunt Bobbie, so I wasn't scared of Shockmaster at all. Is that true? Yeah, and Berkeley. This is just some fun lore for you guys. Berkeley, his son is the beloved, we love Berkeley, is the timekeeper at ringside. He's been that for many years. Yeah, he's very good at his job. So Harley Race. Harley Race was the first. I felt like Harley Race, who was older and Vader's manager at the time, seven-time NWA world champion, I felt like he could still be NWA world champion.

2:01:04He looked like... Harley Race, there's a couple guys where you just feel like these are the guys you want on your side of the bar at 1.30 in the morning. I think he's like number one, right? I was used to talk about how he could kick everybody's ass in real life. You know, yeah, Him, Haku. I feel today like it's an easy choice if you're going into a bar fight. You hear all these creative answers. Like, I'm just going to take Chad Gable because he's a former Olympian alternate. And then any of the Samoans were winning the fight. We're going to, you know, I don't have to even get up. Like, yeah, he got him.

2:01:36Oh, like one little fake kick at the end. Like, yeah. I think Undertaker probably had a 15 year run there on the 90s, 2000s, where it's like, that's your, that's your choice in the dark alley. Yeah. I mean, you could get creative with it. There'd be some fun choices. But to me, I'm some of these athletes I'm around. I'm like, yeah, no, just Chad Gable. everyone's getting twisted up. And no, it's not going to be violent. He's just going to put them down in that uncomfortable, humbling type way, you know? Right. Yeah. That's smart. Yeah. This was great. This was so much fun. Good luck with that freaking turncoat jerk, Cena.

2:02:06I love how upset you are with him. Well, he let down two generations of children. I'll be upset if he doesn't show up like the John we all know and love. I'll be upset if we just get this. Maybe he can come back to some sense of human normalcy. versus shitting on his fan base. John is a man of his word. The reality is 11 shows left. He might be that wrestler that they're like, oh yeah, it's going to happen. Oh, no. And he's gone. Well, if we've learned anything in the history of professional wrestling, it's that nobody ever actually retires. So I believe it when I see it. And I think that one you will see.

2:02:43He might be the one person who is more serious than ever about it's time. You guys are... Unless there's some like Stone Cold had a neck injury, like he had to stop. You know, like there's some sort of physical thing where it's like, you can't do this anymore. But for the most part, hard to walk away. I don't even think we'll see John returning in cameo roles. I think he, this is it. Wow. Which is why at SummerSlam, I'm very excited because as much as - Well, maybe he should retire and think about some of the choices he made over the last year. You tell him, you tell him, you know. Letting down entire arenas of people.

2:03:17Kids crying, kids crying. Really terrible. Hit me with my watch too. Great to spend time with you in person. Thank you so much. Bet on yourself, Club. Yeah. We're in it. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Cody Rhodes. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahau as well. I'm maybe coming back on Sunday. I will definitely have a podcast over the next seven days. Don't forget about Rewatchables on Monday. And I'll see you in a couple of days.

2:03:50I don't have feelings with him.

2:04:20helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York.