Giannis Trade Advice, Duncan Vs. Kobe, Ohtani Vs. the Babe, the Frugal-ish Yankees, and Life After ‘First Take’ With Max Kellerman

13:44Max Kellerman:If Indiana's healthy last year, are you sure that OKC beats them?

13:49Bill Simmons:It's an interesting question about that game seven because the thing with OKC, I always worry about these young teams when the pressure gets super hot. What's going to happen? And Indiana came out, was throwing haymakers. Even like, what was it, tied at halftime, even after Hal Burton left?

14:05Max Kellerman:It's crazy, and he was clutch. And Rich told me, Rich Paul was telling me at the time. Your future partner at the ringer. Yes, like any moment now. Yeah. He was telling me at the time, because I was like, Rich, this isn't that hard. Look at the point differential. They're squashing the league. like and the question was it was them or the Cavs and I'm like it's OKC.

14:25Bill Simmons:It was the Celtics argument the year before. Yeah, same. At some point you gotta trust the math. They're winning by 11 points a game.

14:31Max Kellerman:They're crushing everyone and his point was yeah, but they play in OKC. You gotta take some points off. Why? It's a sleepy town. Yeah. Why would you take points off for that? You would think your players are getting rest when they get to OKC and everything. So there's no energy when you get there. The teams that they're gonna face are not energized. Like they're already thinking well, you know, And a couple nights we're going to be in LA and we're going to do this and this and this. And there's no juice.

14:55Bill Simmons:Is this going to be part of the behind the curtain when you have the pod with Rich? He's going to take us behind the scenes of the mentality of NBA road trips. Whereas like Miami is the opposite.

15:05Max Kellerman:He can't help it. If you talk to Rich Paul for long enough, you will hear something super interesting based on his experience, like information that other people don't have. And from a very educated point of view that you have never heard before. You'll hear something new. Like, I hadn't heard that really. But watching the playoffs, Indiana, who was a team that kind of played the most like themselves, I thought, through the playoffs. And had a little bit of a horseshoe.

15:34Bill Simmons:No question. In a good way. No question. They just, they had a way of, good things were happening to them at the right times of games or series. Yeah. They seemed charmed.

15:43Max Kellerman:But that OKC team, I don't know, I'm not 100 % convinced that they win the whole thing if Halliburton's in that game. I don't know.

15:52Bill Simmons:Well, it turns out Jalen Williams was playing hurt the whole playoffs. They didn't even tell us. Because he was kind of a little more inconsistent than he usually was.

16:01Max Kellerman:But when your best player isn't on the floor, you know, and it's still close. The other interesting thing, you brought up the Celtics and then OKC. And I wonder if this is going to be true going forward. They both had super tall players playing real minutes who were actually really good. Right? Right. Like Chris Stapp's Porzingis when the Celtics acquired, oh, we're giving up our identity. Marcus Martin. Like, are you kidding? You got a seven foot million guy who can actually play who's joining this team now if he's healthy. It's a wrap.

16:31Bill Simmons:And they had Horford and they had Cornette and Tatum, who's, you know, one of the top 15 rebounders in the league on top of all the other stuff. How are you going to beat him?

16:38Max Kellerman:And the answer was you couldn't. And then the same thing last year with Chet, it was like, so that was one of my arguments with Rich when I thought, OKC will win. I'm like, they're crushing everyone. They're about to get some version of Wemby on the team. Right? Like, this guy's going to... Come on. And I wonder if that's something that championship teams are going to need going forward. It's only two years. It's not a pattern yet. Right?

17:01Bill Simmons:Well, we haven't had this in a while where there's a team... I mean, maybe since the 2017 Warriors where there's a team where it's like, whoa. Those guys are up here. Like, is it even... Remember that year, teams were a little afraid to chase them until really until Durant left and then all hell broke loose in the, uh, in the next summer. But if the Spurs get Giannis, so let's talk about it. Cause I had some, I had some Giannis stuff. I guess we don't need to talk about the Clippers as depressing as it is. No, it's just like, I, I just, there's no outs and they don't have their pick.

17:35Max Kellerman:And you're, you're just, you're just in a tight spot.

17:38Bill Simmons:Did you like the trade when it happened?

17:40Max Kellerman:Uh, hold on. Which trade are we talking about? Kawhi and Paul George. No, I didn't like, I didn't, I didn't like, well, I understood the logic. I don't think I would have done it, but I understood the logic because it seemed like it was a package deal. And Balmer, I think, saw an opening because of the state of the Lakers where we can take over. And Kawhi had just won an MVP, a finals MVP on his second team. Is he going to win a finals MVP on his third team? And it was like the best player in the world.

18:08Bill Simmons:And trying to not have the Lakers get him seemed to be a huge part of it. I liked everything about it except the Shea piece, ironically. Of course. I just, because I thought, and I think I said this at the time, I still defended the trade. I was like, I get why they did it. You get these two guys. And Paul George was awesome the year before. So they're getting like two of the best 10 guys in the league. But it was very similar to the Celtics in 07 when we got KG. I say we like them on the team. But we got KG and they really want a Rondo. And if you go back and you read about the reports of that, it was Rondo was the stickler.

18:39Bill Simmons:And the Celtics wouldn't bend on Rondo. And then finally, Minnesota was like, all right, throw it. Can you give us, float us another pick or whatever it was. And they were able to keep Rondo. And they don't win the OA title without Rondo. Right. And I always thought it was, I remember talking to Doc about this a couple years ago. I always thought it was weird that they were going to try to win the title with Paul George and Kawhi, but then not have Shea as a piece of it. But Presti, he was smart. He's like, no, Shea has to be in the trade or I'm not doing it.

19:07Max Kellerman:Because Presti is like the anti-Nick. You know, like I think about the Carmelo trade where it's well-known Carmelo's only good. He had all the leverage, really. I'm only going to go to the Knicks. Oh, when he gutted their Danilo? Yeah, and the Knicks were like, no, what's his name? The GM from the Bronx at the time. Donnie Walsh. Donnie Walsh is playing poker, right? Yeah. And then Dolan gets involved. I was like, wait, the grown-ups are doing this. Please don't do this. And Dolan's like, oh, we have to get Carmelo. And suddenly everybody's in the deal, right? Presti is really smart. And the thing the Clippers were really missing was an actual primary ball handler, not putting guys who can do it.

19:46Max Kellerman:Yeah. You know, it's almost like there's an obvious desire to do this, like in baseball at first base where, well, the most players can play first base. Therefore, they conflate that with the idea that defense isn't important at first base and you have bad defenders at first base. And it's sort of the same in the NBA where it's like sometimes you get tempted. well, this guy can do that job. That's different than he should do the job. Like Draymond Green's not really the point guard. He's a guy who can do that and he works in it and he can do it sometimes. But just because someone can doesn't mean they should.

20:24Max Kellerman:And I think the idea that they could just do it with Paul George and Kawhi, two two-way wings, defined roles, because you know, Paul George is the Robin in that Batman and Robin. It made a lot of sense. Kawhi wanted him. Yeah, they needed a guy to handle the ball.

20:37Bill Simmons:I mean, really the way to do it would have been, Yo, Kawhi, just come to the Clippers. We have a really good young team. We have all our picks. You just won the title. Let's just take this one slow. Because all the research now is he never wanted to go to the Lakers. He didn't want to play for LeBron. So it was either stay in Toronto or go. But he had already, I guess, had his mindset. Maybe he bought a house in LA or outside LA. So maybe they could have played poker with him. They definitely could have played poker with Presti. He was going to the Clippers. This was a gung-ho. and we can keep from the Lakers and they just throw everything in.

21:11Bill Simmons:This trade, not only is it a swap this year, they get their pick next year. This trade is like, it's like VD. It won't end.

21:20Max Kellerman:Yeah, it's the... It just goes for seven years. Is it the most... Like, where does it... Considering points of leverage on top of everything else, pick swaps, picks, how bad one team wound up...

21:33Bill Simmons:It's the most devastating trade in the history of the league. I think so. You can't get mad at them for doing it, though. It's different than the Luka thing. The Luka thing is like, this trade is an abomination. We all thought it was an abomination when it happened. This Clippers thing is like, all right, I get it. They've never won a title. They've never made the finals. They're trying to keep them from the Lakers. What do they care about six years from now? We got to do this now. Fortune favors the bold.

21:55Max Kellerman:Yeah.

21:56Bill Simmons:This was like, you're at a dinner with 10 people, and you're like, yeah, let's get that Japanese Kobe steak. And then the check comes, and you're like, fuck.

22:04Max Kellerman:But for Paul George, the leverage for the move was that the thought was Kawhi would only do it if Paul George was there, right? Yeah, but was that true? I would have tested that theory. Easy for me to say sitting here now.

22:20Bill Simmons:Well, now, so we're in a similar situation with Giannis. And there's the AD piece, too. I'm in the camp. I don't think Dallas should trade AD. I think they should keep him. they're 6-15 but I watch them because I like watching Flag and I'm just I have their over for futures and I just I feel like it could turn around for them the West is like there's 8-9 playoff teams and then it's a mess and and they got a guy who looks like he can play a little point guard yeah well and now Nembhard's all of a sudden playing this undrafted free agent right but then Flag can do a little bit but I don't know I would keep him I would wait I don't think he has the same kind of trade value that people think because of his age.

23:04Bill Simmons:He's got this eye thing. He's been banged up. He's got a lot of miles on him. Big contract. There's only a couple teams that could trade for it. And I think -

23:13Max Kellerman:When it gets worse, Bill, that's the problem. You're right.

23:15Bill Simmons:For them, it's like, do you trade him before Giannis, the sweepstakes for that happen, is the question. It's like, we got to move because everyone's going to be moving after Giannis and we might be out in the cold.

23:26Max Kellerman:I think you got to move him now because there's look, you don't want to trade a guy when his trade value is low and you'd like to be the consolation prize afterward. but I think they have to be resigned to the idea we have to target something we like, see if we can get that for AD and if we can, we should do it independent of everything else because there is the risk that AD makes a recovery to the point where he's still playing his normal 60, 65 games a year at a certain level but there's also a risk that given the physical stuff, given his age, that it gets worse. He's going to be 33 soon. that it gets worse.

24:08Bill Simmons:32 and 13 last night.

24:10Max Kellerman:Yeah, because he's great. You know, he really is. But I think you got to just... It's almost like a draft where you say, I like that guy. Oh, you reached for him, but we liked that guy. And they got to figure out something they like and see if they can't get it for him. And if they can, you pull the trigger, I think.

24:28Bill Simmons:Were you in the camp of, I can't believe this guy made NBA 75 when that happened?

24:33Max Kellerman:Let's not forget that... You mean AD? Yeah. there was a point not all that long ago where it was like, can AD replace Tim Duncan as the greatest power forward who ever left?

24:48Bill Simmons:That was the 2018 range.

24:50Max Kellerman:Yeah.

24:50Bill Simmons:When he was wreaking havoc on the Pelicans.

24:53Max Kellerman:He was so good. And this was before this new wave of the super talls who can play defense and do everything. And maybe it's not fair to KG, but AD was the one I'm like, he's guarding the pick and roll, you know, one guy.

25:10Bill Simmons:And he could like just destroy. I remember there was a moment, I don't remember what game it was in the 2020 finals. Well, first of all, it seemed like he had a chance to be the finals MVP. Yeah. And he was wreaking havoc against Miami. And it felt like a moment like, holy shit. But then his next game wasn't that good. It was like, it was kind of sitting there for, if he had one more, like 35 and 20, there would have been a completely different conversation. I love those moments. He couldn't kind of get over the hump. I love those moments. Where it's like Shaq in 2000 was like, I'm here, guys.

25:44Max Kellerman:Those are so interesting to me. Those moments of shifting perception based on this one moment, right? Like I think about... Well, boxing's the king of that. Mike Tyson, the night he fought Franz Bota, knocked him out with one shot in the fifth round. Yeah. But the interesting thing to me, even though he'd already lost to Holyfield, The interesting thing to me is before that fight, I remember thinking the public would have bet Mike Tyson into the favorite, no matter who he fought in the history of boxing. Yeah. Right or wrong, they would have bet him that way. And after that fight, he'd have been the underdog for the first time ever.

26:19Max Kellerman:Right. So that both the fight, like you can laugh because like, but the entire perception of Mike Tyson completely changed. I even think of, because you geek out on stuff like this, as I do, Bobby Mercer way back in the day, who was supposed to be the next Mickey Mantle.

26:36Bill Simmons:Traded for Bobby Bonds.

26:37Max Kellerman:Eventually, which was a good trade for the Yankees. And then Bonds was traded for Mickey Rivers and Ed Fagaroa. But Bobby Mercer, if you looked at the trajectory of his career in a depressed offensive era, hadn't really ruled himself out of that yet. And then had this incredible season where, because people didn't understand advanced analytics well enough at the time, they didn't understand quite how good he was. And he was like 25, 26, and he followed it up with a really nice season. But it wasn't like the season before. And at that moment, people realized, okay, this guy is what he is. He's a sometime all-star.

27:11Max Kellerman:He's not going to be one of the greatest players ever. Those little, those single seasons or single games or single moments that completely reshape the way we think about a guy are so interesting to me. And I agree with you about AD. You could pinpoint that moment and go, it was cresting and no.

27:28Bill Simmons:Flip side, Eli, who made the semifinalist for the Hall of Fame again, basically based off a couple games. and if either of those Giants games against the Pats, don't go, you're a Giants fan, I'm going right in your wheelhouse now. But basically, if Harrison just knocks the ball off Tyrese's helmet or they call it one of the five holds on the play, they don't win that one. That's right. And then he makes a great play to Manningham.

27:53Max Kellerman:Or if they just whistle the play dead because he had five guys on him and the play was kind of over.

27:59Bill Simmons:But it's those two. Now, the Giants fans I know, and I'm sure you're in that camp, is like Eli had some huge road wins. he went into Lambeau here's the thing about

28:06Max Kellerman:I'll make the Hall of Fame case for Eli I think the answer is yes for Eli and I'll start by saying he was an Iron Man which is hugely the durability thing is the first thing hugely important at that position you never had to worry he had more responsibility in his offense than anyone but Peyton or Tom Brady right like he had a huge amount of he's playing in a in an outdoor windy kind of environment like his stats probably would have been a little better somewhere else

28:29Bill Simmons:I think that's the most fair point for the Eli defenders is compare him to Breeze who got to play in the Superdome for a hundred years. Right. Flip him and it's not,

28:40Max Kellerman:Breeze is more accurate and all that stuff. But then here it is. In terms of clutch. So Nate Silver, I don't know if you remember this article that came out five years ago, but Nate Silver wanted to see who was the most clutch quarterback ever. Right? So he... It wasn't Tom Brady who came back from 28 to 3? This was before Tom Brady did that actually. It's how Tom Brady kept going. But so he goes back and he wants to see what's their baseline that they achieve, the kind of level that they play at normally. And what do they play at in the playoffs? And then you see the difference there. And a little unfair because Eli's base is lower than others, right?

29:18Max Kellerman:So he has more room to go up. The two postseasons where he goes 4-0. Dude, he was, he came out so far ahead of everybody else who ever lived that Nate redid the methodology. because he's like, come on, Eli can't be this kind of an outlier above Joe Montana and everybody. Let's get all the Trent Dilfers out. Yeah. And I'm going to redo the methodology and see who comes out. Number one. And so when he redid it, it was close. Eli Manning won Joe Montana, too. So so that right. And that was because when you think it's not just the Super Bowls, he went on the road. He beat Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers at Lambeau.

29:57Max Kellerman:Yeah. Right. Like he was he He had tough matchups on the road for two playoff series and he won two Super Bowls. You're right.

30:06Bill Simmons:He also had a little bit of a horseshoe in a good way, much like the Pacers last year. There were a couple moments where it's like, wow, 100%.

30:13Max Kellerman:How did that go Eli's way? Butterfly effect, right? Like if a butterfly had flapped its wings in China, we're not having this conversation about Eli, but it didn't. That's actually what happened. And he's a two-time Super Bowl MVP. there have not been that many of them. And Bill, so I said once upon a time, famously, infamously, because it became a meme. Oh, this is what I hear. The universe on the line. Yeah. I want Iguodala, right? The point I was making was Steph Curry, I had seen in game seven. I was there. On my own dime, I just wanted to see it as a fan, right? I wanted to be able to. And they had the greatest half-court offense in the history of basketball.

30:56Max Kellerman:They had 73 wins. They were about to be declared the greatest basketball team of all time. It was five minutes left in the fourth quarter. This is one of your moments that you were talking about. Game seven at home. They did not score another point. And you are the point guard and the best player on the team. He's carelessly throwing behind the back passes out of bounds. He's scared to shoot. When he does shoot, he's not hitting. I can't say scared. I don't know what's going on in his heart, but that's what appeared. And the bottom line is that offense didn't score a single point the rest of the way and lost a game seven at home.

31:35Max Kellerman:That, to me, is fate of the universe on the line, right? So that's what I meant. A guy like Iguodala, open shot, not getting his own shot. I have confidence, Iggy, if he has the shot, he's going to take it and nail it. There are certain athletes. This would be a good segment for you and Rich. Defend your meme. 100 % defend your meme. I love it. That's what we're doing at the Ringer, Bill. That's what we came here for.

31:59Bill Simmons:I have a couple I could probably defend.

32:01Max Kellerman:Here's the thing with Curry, though. But I'm saying all this. Go back and think of the Patriots in 07. They were about to be called. They were going to replace the 1927 Yankees, the 72-win Bulls. This is the greatest team in the history of American team sports. Thanks for bringing this up. Period. Yeah. And he beat them. Then fast forward four more years. four years.

32:24Bill Simmons:Which he scored, 21 points, 17 points?

32:26Max Kellerman:It happened again, Bill. It happened the exact same way. And this time, actually, the play, while less improbable, was a better play by Eli, actually, when the Manningham pass. Like, he did it. You can't... Yes, if anything changes, that's gone, and we're not... But that's what actually happened. I don't see how you can... You can't tell the story of the NFL without Eli Manning in that era. You can't dismiss the Iron Man streak, the two Super Bowl MVPs, The road wins against Hall of Fame quarterbacks at Lambeau. He's a Hall of Famer.

32:59Bill Simmons:Football's funny because it's such a small sample size for these playoff games.

33:02Max Kellerman:It lets people like me make bullshit arguments.

33:05Bill Simmons:But Flacco had the greatest postseason of all time. Yeah, right. So when you start there, basketball just doesn't have that. They don't have Joe Flacco. Oh, that Joe Flacco postseason when he averaged 38 a game for 20 games in the playoffs. Because basketball. Because you have seven-game series. the right team usually wins.

33:23Max Kellerman:The NBA, we actually know who's really good. It's not really debatable.

33:29Bill Simmons:We've had two finals in the last 40 years where the right team probably didn't win. Which one? 1988, Pistons. And 2013, Spurs. I think those are the only two you could say. I'm not sure the right team won.

33:41Max Kellerman:Maybe.

33:42Bill Simmons:Maybe on paper with the Spurs? Well, I'm just saying they were up five with 27 seconds left. The game, that should be it. They should have won the title. Oh, I see what you mean. And the Pistons... The way it played out, you're saying.

33:52Max Kellerman:Yeah, and the Pistons,

33:53Bill Simmons:I think if Isaiah doesn't get hurt, they win. But it's funny, the Curry thing, I'm a... Obviously, Curry's my guy. I love Curry. It's a tough one to defend. And the only way you can defend it is by basically pointing to other players who are awesome, who failed in big moments. Like, Magic had the 84 finals, right? That was just as bad as Curry in Game 7. But the bottom line is... Tragic Johnson. Yeah. The bottom line is, Curry was home. They had won what? They'd won 73 games plus another 15.

34:25Max Kellerman:Right. Because the playoffs are deeper. Yeah, yeah. 88 games. But not only that, to that point in history, it's the greatest offense ever. You're the machine. You're the unanimous MVP. You have guys like me on TV saying, I know in any other era this wouldn't be true. But right now, Steph Curry is the best player in basketball. In the middle of LeBron James' prime. Right. Right. But in the playoffs, you find out who really is the best player in basketball. And by the end of those playoffs, LeBron James was by so far the best player, it was ridiculous to compare other people to him.

35:00Bill Simmons:Well, then Rich and Adam Silver got together and suspended Draymond for that fifth game. But that always helped. If you have a guy like Draymond Green and that is the tax of Draymond Green, you never know when it's going to what side of the line is it going to be on. LeBron deserves credit for that. He baited him. It worked. This would be another good segment. Let me make an excuse. The 07 Pats and the 16 Warriors, I think, had a very similar thing of there was too much pressure from the streaks that weighed on them to a point where I think they were just debilitated. Golden State basically should have lost to OKC, which is even crazier.

35:38Bill Simmons:And Clay goes nuts in Game 6.

35:40Max Kellerman:I was Game seven for that too. And that was a very winnable game for OKC. OKC, Durant was bad in those last three games. I think even he would admit that. Marcellus Wiley used to say this when we were doing the radio show Max and Marcellus here in L.A. He'd be like getting off the bus. Who do you like when you see the athletes getting off the bus? And a lot of it was made of at that season of Cleveland and and Golden State. Yeah. But people like in your mind's eye go back the street that the Thunder were on. You started going getting off the bus. That's the best team. In fact, super winnable game for them, game seven at Golden State.

36:15Max Kellerman:The Westbrook thing was just, it was just too wonky. Westbrook and KD choked. Yeah. They did. You don't take pleasure in saying that, but how else do you describe it? They're 3-1.

36:23Bill Simmons:The other one that was in that camp for me is the Miami 27 game winning streak in 2013, the Heat, where all of a sudden that took a different life of itself where these weren't regular season games anymore. Now they're playing like, these are conference finals level intensity games. And I just think it takes something out of a team. I really felt like that happened to the Pats. I thought they, by the time they got to the playoffs, they were a different team than they were the first eight weeks.

36:50Max Kellerman:But you got like, so this is the most nervous I've ever been as a baseball fan. Was in 98 for the Yankees. Right. Going into the World Series against the Padres. 120 or 116 regular season, 114 regular season wins. They're beating everybody in the playoffs. You cannot lose to the Padres. But they swept them. They didn't win in six, seven games. they swept them.

37:12Bill Simmons:Wasn't there a call? It was a bad umpire call? The Padre fans are still mad about it.

37:16Max Kellerman:Tino Martinez, it was strike three. Yeah, there were always turning points and the baseball gods were smiling on them. But there were also times in those playoffs against Cleveland, El Duque, against one of the greatest lineups ever, comes in and shuts them down for seven innings. I think it's fair to say when you're one of the greatest teams of all time or you're in that conversation, part of what you're being tested on is can you be that same team when it matters most? Right. And I think a lot of that comes... Warriors failed the test in 16. I think it comes a lot from the leader. I think that your team has to believe that your guy is the best guy.

37:56Max Kellerman:But Steph atoned for that in 22.

37:58Bill Simmons:He did. That's the thing. Just like Magic atoned for it in 85, 87, 88. But Steph deserves all the credit in the world

38:07Max Kellerman:for being the kind of player that you can build a system around that just wins all these championships. He was only ever the best player on a championship team, no excuses, in 22. But LeBron had a couple too.

38:22Bill Simmons:I mean, 09 and 10 and 11. 09 he was great. 10 he was not. And 11 was just an abject disaster and is probably the thing that hurts his go case the most. But LeBron James was frequently

38:34Max Kellerman:the best player in the finals. True. 16 won it back. sometimes he was the best player in the finals and they won the championship. Sometimes he was the best player in the finals and they didn't win the championship, but he was frequently the best player in the finals and oftentimes the best player on a championship team. Steph, in my view, has done that once. I know you can say 15, but come on. LeBron's second best player is Matthew Delevedova. It still goes six games. Steph was hurt in 16. Kevin Love.

39:04Bill Simmons:Yeah, he was on the floor. Defender meme is funny. Let's take a break and then I want to talk Giannis trades quick. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. This NBA season is all about the boost because game days means your chance to boost your bet, make every play pay off. Right now, all customers get a 50 % same game parlay and parlay profit boost. Oh, yeah. So like, for instance, by the time you hear this, Nick Celtics would not have happened yet, but I'd like the Celtics at home tonight. I think the crowd's going to show up, but you could do that. You could ride some of the teams that have been playing really well lately.

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40:22Bill Simmons:Gamble problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every football season, the same thing happens. The game somehow makes everybody really hungry. Quarterback scrambles, clearly a sign for breakfast burritos. Yeah. Turnover, suddenly dessert at 2 p.m. doesn't sound so crazy. Wing formations, well, those can only mean buffalo wings, as if they're ever not in play. Even the goalposts start looking suspiciously like french fries. It's almost like football is sending the message to eat more food.

41:02Bill Simmons:Yeah, the good news, Uber Eats makes those cravings easy to satisfy with game day deals all season long. From wings and pizza to chips, drinks, and even last minute grocery runs. Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. All right, Giannis trades. So the question for me, and we're taping this, it's Tuesday morning. I think all the Giannis stuff's going to start this week. if Atlanta got Giannis without giving up Jalen Johnson or Daniels or even Risa Shea could they keep their team which has this really cool identity right now without Trey this long, athletic, kind of scary, young the type of team it's a little OKC-ish you're keeping JJ and getting Giannis could I get Giannis and still keep my nucleus and actually make a run at OKC is OKC catchable if I have Giannis.

41:58Bill Simmons:And the big trade chip for them, they have the pick that is either the Pelicans first or the Bucs first. It's one or the other, the highest one. And the Pelicans one is probably going to be top five. Who's running your offense? Well, Jalen Johnson's been basically their point forward, and he's been awesome.

42:16Max Kellerman:Yeah, I think when you get to the playoffs, I want a point guard. If it's a point forward, it's got to be... I think of Jalen Johnson as a forward.

42:28Bill Simmons:So Luke Kitar doesn't excite you?

42:31Max Kellerman:I think in this era, you need a guy. No, I'm with you. Who can really run your offense. Minnesota is not playing a point guard. I'm thinking of Jalen Johnson as a point forward in the playoffs. When everything slows down. When everything slows down. And like, it's tempting because maybe the following year, you get a guy to do what you really need him to do. and now you have a suit, like you have crazy length positions. You have defense. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean, yes. The answer is if you can, if you can center a package around Trey Young and get Giannis, you have to do it.

43:04Bill Simmons:So it would be Trey Young, poor Zingas, who's an expiring. See, but they have a super tall. Right. They got a super tall guy. He makes 30, so that's perfect for trade. Yep. They have that Bucs pick. They have a 2027, the worst of Bucs are New Orleans first. They have all their own first, so they can put together four firsts, Trae Young, the Porzingis expiring. We'll take Kuzma back. Kuzma will be the tax of the honest trade. And for the Bucs, it's like...

43:32Max Kellerman:For your second unit, you get a little offense there.

43:34Bill Simmons:Yeah, for the Bucs, it's like, hey, Trae Young, fun guy to have on your team. He's got two years left on his deal.

43:39Max Kellerman:Then the Bucs are just raising the white flag and saying, we are now a franchise that knows we're not going to compete for titles, but we can keep fans coming and, you know, like, if I'm the Bucs, I don't do it. Well, how many draft picks am I getting? Which draft picks am I getting?

43:54Bill Simmons:Well, you're getting that Pelicans pick, so you know you have a chance to be in the top four in a lottery that has three potential franchise guys. And everyone thinks it's the best draft in a long time. And thank you to the Pelicans for giving that pick to Atlanta. You have some other good ones, too. They have a top 10 protected Sacramento pick. They have that 2027 worst one of the Bucks Pelicans. They could put it together. I guess the question for me with the Bucs is, do you want to get in on this before AD becomes the consolation trade piece for Atlanta? Like you have Toronto, which doesn't have an asset like that pick, but could put together all their picks.

44:34Bill Simmons:They could put together their contracts. San Antonio is the wild card.

44:38Max Kellerman:That's the one. If I'm San Antonio, I'm doing whatever it takes to get Giannis. That's like a brain breaker trade. It's a brain breaker trade.

44:47Bill Simmons:Wemby and Giannis on the same team. It's like...

44:50Max Kellerman:That's... And... If I'm San Antonio, I have to do that. That's kind of what I'm rooting for to happen. I want to see it. So if I'm Milwaukee, because you don't have really any asset

45:02Bill Simmons:that's awesome except for a 2031, you can swap picks with the Kings.

45:07Max Kellerman:It's had to be a three-team trade.

45:09Bill Simmons:Always a bonus. Right. No, they have a bunch of contracts.

45:14Max Kellerman:Yeah, but what is Milwaukee again?

45:17Bill Simmons:I'm not in that trade. If I'm San Antonio, no thank you. I'm keeping Dylan Harper. If it's okay, I'm keeping him. I'm keeping him. Sure, you'd like to. No, I'm keeping him. I think he's untouchable. Or how are you going to get Giannis? Castle, I don't really want to trade him either. Right.

45:36Max Kellerman:But that's the thing, man. You got to, as James Toney famously said, and I said this on the Crawford Canelo broadcast, you got to bring ass to get ass.

45:45Bill Simmons:No, I get it. I get it. They have a bunch of picks and they'd have to really decide on... Harper to me is untouchable. Castle, I should also be untouchable, but I have to give up something to get something. I have to give you at least one awesome asset. Right. Your fans can say, well, at least we got that. And draft picks. And a bunch of draft picks. Yeah. Chicago really just has the draft picks. Detroit, Duren's not going to be in the trade. He's untouchable. the Knicks they can't really do anything

46:18Max Kellerman:I mean the Knicks would have unless

46:21Bill Simmons:they have the Giannis is better than Kat

46:24Max Kellerman:you're giving up a bunch of shooting there

46:26Bill Simmons:but you can't package guys together it's too complicated the Knicks trade that's not as complicated is AD no AD for Towns

46:36Max Kellerman:oh I think the Knicks trade that makes all the sense in the world for both parties don't do this OG for LeBron

46:43Bill Simmons:But that can't happen, though, because the contracts have to match perfectly. That's the problem with this apron. They would have to trade Towns for LeBron is the only way contractually they could do it. Wait, they don't have any other piece that could match up with the numbers? Once you start adding things with this apron, you can't do it. So they can do one-for-ones. So they can trade Towns for AD right now. The thing about LeBron, and I think I would do that, too. I have Knicks fans in my life who are like, I like Towns, no thanks. I don't want to deal with AD's injuries. I understand, me too.

47:12Max Kellerman:And Towns spaces the floor for a big and an absurd way. He's never become the defender in space that it looked like he'd be out of college. But if LeBron could be, think of him like super Draymond Green on offense for the Knicks. He becomes the pick and roll partner for Jalen Brunson. And you can play five out with him. And even if Mitchell Robinson's in. He's going to be 41. Right, that's true. But for high leverage moments, if you can keep him healthy and he's doing much less if he's really the power forward.

47:48Bill Simmons:Well, you're describing 2024 Olympics, LeBron. Yes. This is like, we don't need all of you, but we need your brain. We need your Swiss Army knife. You can play every position. He'll get to a spot

48:00Max Kellerman:to shoot the three, right?

48:01Bill Simmons:And with five minutes left in a huge game. Play defense. I love having you out there.

48:06Max Kellerman:Yeah, play defense with five minutes left in a huge game, by the way. Yeah. Which you can still do in spurts. the problem with the Knicks is they will never win a championship when their best player is six feet tall. No one has ever won a championship since the bad boy Pistons. Right. Isaiah was the last one to do it who wasn't at least six foot three. I mean, the basket's way up. Yeah, Shea is like six, three and a half. The basket's way up high, right? It selects out for height. So you're not going to... And the physicality of the playoffs. You need a, the Knicks can't have their best player be Jalen Brunson.

48:42Max Kellerman:You need at least another guy who in big moments is at least as good as Jalen Brunson.

48:47Bill Simmons:Now you're saying this, now you've been on the sidelines for two years here. Yeah. This is the best Knicks team in your lifetime?

48:54Max Kellerman:Close? Best starting five of my lifetime. Okay. Easily. There's never been a Knicks starting five. And I don't mean just like add up all the talent, maybe even then. but the Knicks of like who the powerhouse Knicks who couldn't get over the hump when I was in high school and college were you know led by Patrick Ewing who was the second best player on that team

49:15Bill Simmons:Charles Oakley John Starks of 94 finals comes down to can John Starks hit a couple shots or

49:22Max Kellerman:that's why you don't win the title Hakeem Olajuwon not get his fingertip on that shot in game six right um but still when you look at the starting five look at the Knicks starting five now you have a superstar point guard. You have, at the two, you can have one of two legitimate NBA starters. Bridges or Josh Hart are both good NBA starters. You could see either one on a championship team. OG and Towns and Robinson. Don't forget McBride. McBride, they got a lot of stuff. They're starters. When you look at each one individually, there's no real weak position. Maybe there's no position strong enough to get a couple of positions that are just checked at a solid level instead of a really high level over the hump.

50:14Max Kellerman:But there's no real weakness in the starting five where you say, that guy really, they're kind of hiding that guy. That guy's starting because they have a great superstar.

50:24Bill Simmons:Hart's probably the closest because that hurt them in the playoffs last year. Unless you watch him every day. No, I know, but in the playoffs, all of a sudden he became... if Josh Hart shot a little bit better, right? If he shot a little bit better. The question for me is, I'm trying to win the title, right? If I'm the Knicks, am I trying to make the finals or am I trying to win the title? Win the title. My team doesn't match up with OKC.

50:48Max Kellerman:I don't... Unless someone plays traffic cop with OKC, you never know what could happen.

50:52Bill Simmons:They have 70 guys to throw at Brunson. Right. For seven games over two weeks. But if... It's a fucking gauntlet. And that's why I don't know if I feel like that. Brunson and LeBron, though? Well, LeBron is interesting, and AD, I think, is interesting, too, for them. Because it just gives them a little more reliable size, rebounding. Like, the possibility of somebody going off in a...

51:15Max Kellerman:And how do you get an AD?

51:16Bill Simmons:It would have to be Towns.

51:18Max Kellerman:Right. Then you're giving up a lot of shooting. You're giving up a lot of shooting. For some defense.

51:22Bill Simmons:And Mike Brown did figure out, it seems to me from watching them, The Brunson Towns thing feels a little more organic than it did last year. Last year, you could see their brains moving around. We got to figure out Kat.

51:36Max Kellerman:If I were the Lakers, I would want OG Ananobi. And if I were the Knicks, I would want him instead of Kat to be in that deal. Because then the Knicks have plenty of shooting. And I think in high leverage moments, they still have defense.

51:48Bill Simmons:If the Lakers got Ananobi and Robinson for LeBron, basically.

51:52Max Kellerman:Which I don't know if that's possible with the cap. Yeah, and I want Mitchell. Robinson's not only good, but he's a playoff performer.

52:00Bill Simmons:Ananobi makes like$15 million less than LeBron. You have to put another...

52:03Max Kellerman:You have to figure out how to...

52:04Bill Simmons:Part of the problem with this apron is some of the teams don't have the right contracts to kind of add together. That's why Atlanta's so interesting because Atlanta can make any type of trade. And I really like their team. When you think like, I don't know what they're going to get from Porzingis. It just seems like he's going to be plagued by this mystery virus he had for the rest of his career. He played one game, now he's gone again.

52:25Max Kellerman:But when he plays, he plays valuable minutes and he plays well. Right. And that was true in Boston too.

52:31Bill Simmons:But if you're them and you're like, we might have a chance to make the finals. The Hawks have never made the finals.

52:36Max Kellerman:Yeah.

52:37Bill Simmons:That's crazy. I think their motivations are maybe a tiny bit different than the Knicks, where the Knicks are like, we have to actually win the title. Making the finals is fun, but that doesn't ultimately really... The title is what matters. You haven't won since 73.

52:52Max Kellerman:Who are you telling? I was born in August of that year. That occurred in January. I have not had a breath since the Knicks. Like the Knicks have never won a championship in my lifetime. So would you rather... I leaned on your theory about when a fan is allowed to jettison a team in order to come and broadcast in LA and root for the Lakers. I leaned on the Bill Simmons theory. Did it work? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was able to actually get behind the Lakers because I'd put my time in with the team. I tried, you know, and then really the final straw for me with the Knicks. You're sports bigamous then.

53:28Max Kellerman:Yeah. The final straw for me with the Knicks was when Oakley got escorted from the garden. Like, could you imagine Paul O 'Neill getting kicked out of Yankee Stadium? Yeah. Right? Like, I would stand online. We'd have season tickets. I would stand online overnight around the garden with my brother to get Knicks tickets, right? In the freezing cold. You had to stand. Like, you had to get there. If you didn't get there, you know, they went on sale, whatever it was, 9 a.m., let's say. You had to get there, you know, the night before and just wait all night because the line wrapped around the block.

54:00Max Kellerman:And I did that because of guys like Charles Oakley. They made you proud to be, Oakley made you proud to be a Knicks fan. And you get that, and you escort that guy from the garden. Why? Because he doesn't like you as an owner? Come on, man. So you're back with the Knicks? I'm trying to keep track.

54:18Bill Simmons:This is like, you're like J-Lo and Ben Affleck. I don't know what's going on.

54:21Max Kellerman:When you leave the team, right? Of course, a part of you is, I'm interested in watching them. I want them to do well. I don't think that this iteration of the Knicks can win a championship.

54:37Bill Simmons:It is funny that we can divorce human beings, but not teams. It somehow is more violating to people in your life that you would get rid of a team. Fantasy was doing this for the ringer. He was like, I'm done with the Knicks. and he really tried and he tried to like be like a basketball widow and you know

54:55Max Kellerman:I used to have the

54:56Bill Simmons:if the DNA is still there in New York radio

54:58Max Kellerman:I did the Max Kellerman show like 20 years ago for ESPN radio and I used to have the abused Knicks fan hotline right like because like they can't but you know yes they can still hurt you because you always run back and that's really the reason the Knicks and I can't criticize the current regime that Dolan has in place because they've done an excellent job there's no two ways about it thing was amazing amazing i don't know how legal that whole thing was either the whole nova thing it works yeah you know but um like i you had to make the trade for towns it was a shame to get rid of di vincenzo right like but you have to pull the trigger on that it was the right trade it was

55:34Bill Simmons:the right trade and now randall's not he gave up pot he looks like the quickest he's ever looked

55:39Max Kellerman:in his life randall could be a new could be a new trend randall is like there are some players who are really, really good. And yet the real careful observers of them who root for the team that they're on don't think that they want them on the team. And Randall's kind of like that with the Knicks. Most Knicks fans were like, okay, that might be addition by subtraction because Randall's off.

56:02Bill Simmons:We had the junior version of that with Marcus Smart. It had just kind of run its course, but in the outside world, it was like Marcus Smart. It's the heart of the team. It's like, eh, we'll probably be okay.

56:11Max Kellerman:And they were drafted right next to each other. 7-8, I think.

56:13Bill Simmons:It's funny those guys when you have them and you're watching them day in, day out versus the general public. Had a few of those over the years.

56:20Max Kellerman:This is why when I said I want Iguodala, it was the same thing like if you asked a real Yankees fan back in the day, bases are loaded, clutch moment in the playoffs. Do you want A-Rod up or Luis Soho up? Hardcore Yankees fans will tell you I'd rather have Luis Soho up.

56:37Bill Simmons:Well, I would tell you from a guy that rooted for the team that would have to play those teams every once in a while. I wanted A-Rod to come up. Right. Unless one of the teams were up 12 to 2.

56:48Max Kellerman:Yeah, right.

56:48Bill Simmons:Then forget it. Then it's like fucking A-Rod's going 500 feet here.

56:52Max Kellerman:100 percent. There are like the idea that clutch doesn't exist that, you know, of course, if you have a guy with A-Rod's talent or Steph's talent, you give them enough reps and they'll work through whatever. And eventually they're just too good. But the sample size has to be pretty big for some of these guys. Whereas guys like, you know, David Ortiz.

57:12Bill Simmons:Well, plus we had like Bill Miller was a classic example of this. You didn't want to see Bill Miller up with guys on base. Nah, man.

57:18Max Kellerman:Switch hits. He was getting on base. He just was.

57:22Bill Simmons:The Dodgers had a couple guys like that too last year.

57:26Max Kellerman:They did.

57:27Bill Simmons:They were just, and you could kind of tell which guys.

57:30Max Kellerman:Tough outs. Tough outs. Like you're a baseball fan. You know exactly what that is.

57:34Bill Simmons:The catcher, Will Smith, who I loved, I just thought he was awesome, like the kind of guy you'd want. That's the thing. We gave up Schwerber like four years ago, the Red Sox. And we had a postseason with him. And every time he came up, I thought he was getting on base or hitting a home run. He felt good. And then they're like, yeah, we don't need him. We have some first base prospects coming up. It's like, what about the guy who, as baseball moves toward walks, home runs, and strikeouts, is like the fucking poster boy of this? We're going to let this guy go?

58:03Max Kellerman:Right. And there's also like, there's some, it's like this Gladwell type thing from one of those airport books he did. I forgot which one. Airport books. You know what I mean? Like you literally, I got a flight. Oh, look, Gladwell has a ticket. Yeah, 220 pages. You know, he'll be, he's a good expositor of some ideas. Yeah. It's kind of been replaced by reels on Instagram, I feel like, or for the kids, TikTok. But, but, but he's good. He kind of like, you know, yeah, composite. Well, now nobody reads on an airplane. My daughter would just go on TikTok for six hours. Yeah. Yeah. But, but it was like, Like it's kind of a, oh, it was Blink, called Blink.

58:36Max Kellerman:It's the Blink test. And fans know their intuition is often correct. You take a look at a guy and without looking at stats, and I'm all for Sabre metrics. I've been geeking out on them since I was a kid. But you can know that that's the kind of guy I want up in this situation or I want at the free throw line in this situation. And if they fail, you can live with it because you're like, okay, they're not always going to succeed. but I've seen that enough that, you know, in a blink kind of way and just an intuitive way that I'm picking up something about this guy that's comfortable in that situation and that makes me feel confident.

59:12Max Kellerman:And other guys the opposite.

59:14Bill Simmons:This is my dad with Jalen Brown who's been a great Celtic. I love Jalen Brown. But in the last minute of a game, if it's a tight game and he goes to the free throw line, he's probably going to make one or two. And my dad will mention it. And he, by the way, forgets all the times Jalen made both, but when he goes one and two, like he did the other night in Cleveland, and my dad's texting me. Selective perception. Yeah, my dad's like, see, one or two.

59:38Max Kellerman:Right. Selective perception, perceptual defense, whatever it is, you know, and yet, there's something. There's something in your gut. There's something, and you know, I once, there's a boxing trainer, Tommy Brooks, who was talking about Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield. If they would have fought a hundred times, Holyfield wins every time. He said the difference is, and he kisses his arms, Holyfield loved himself and Mike hated himself. Yeah. Right. There's certain athletes, if they're at the free throw line in a tight game, they think they deserve to hit that shot. Like you could say, people could say whatever they want about Kobe Bryant.

1:00:21Max Kellerman:If he's at the free throw line in a tight game. That dude loves himself. He is going to like, there's nothing in him working against his own success there. And there are other guys, A-Rod, you got, you got the feeling like he was conflicted inside somehow.

1:00:36Bill Simmons:I mean, he literally just did a documentary called Alex versus A-Rod.

1:00:40Max Kellerman:There, there you go. That's probably why I said it on my mind, but he, there was, he's working against himself there. There's something in him that's working against himself. Ortiz, the opposite. The opposite.

1:00:51Bill Simmons:Manny the opposite Manny would just go in these benders where he would just go 30 for 58

1:00:57Max Kellerman:for two weeks I'm a Yankees fan you don't have to tell me twice and as great as Manny was Ortiz is the guy don't want to see him the Dustin Pedroia you can stay away

1:01:06Bill Simmons:that's how we flip the rivalry because of Ortiz well no you flip

1:01:10Max Kellerman:the rivalry literally with a flip the rivalry flipped in a regular season game in 2004 after the Yankees broke the Red Sox heart in 2003 when Jason Varitek started a fight with a July 27 2004 he started the fight with a with the game ender he picked on a rod he was it a rock was in the right Varitek was in the wrong yeah he bullied him but then he won the fight before it got before it got broken up he got the better of it and as a Yankees fan I'm not saying this in retrospect I'm telling you at the time I thought, oh, that's bad. That's really bad. It's bad for the psychology of the team. Getting back to Steph Curry, Magic Johnson and all that stuff, it reminds me there when your best player has a quality about them that makes the team feel like we have that guy we can't lose.

1:02:07Max Kellerman:It does something to the team. And Steph, I don't think had that for a lot of his career. He's one of the greatest players ever, but I didn't get LeBron did. I got the feeling like with LeBron on the team, his team believed later. Right. After the Dallas loss, he started getting that thing. The team believed Derek Jeter had it, even though there were other players better than him on the team. Kobe Bryant had it, no matter what people want to say, which is why I think it is also ridiculous when people say, oh, Kobe's like the eighth best player ever, the 10th best player ever. And kids from his generation lose their minds.

1:02:42Max Kellerman:That's not an unfair ranking. But why I would put him over Tim Duncan is because I think that, and it's close, I think, between those two, is that Kobe's team believed, if he had a shot to win, Kobe's team believed that they would win.

1:02:58Bill Simmons:I'm going to leave. The Tim Duncan slander. Do you think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of? I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time. What I'm saying is Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck.

1:03:10Max Kellerman:I think that's not slander. They're neck and neck. Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan, right? Probably the close in any sport. Tell me an upper echelon. I have Kobe like 10th or 11th all time. Okay. I don't think that's unreasonable. But Duncan has to be.

1:03:25Bill Simmons:Duncan's seventh. And I don't think it's debatable. You think it's not debatable? I don't. I don't. So MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell. MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Bird of Magic. Oh, head of Chamberlain. Okay. Chamberlain was a loser for most of his career. And I wrote a whole chapter in my book about this. He didn't. I mean, you know. He got traded multiple times.

1:03:49Max Kellerman:The Celtics had every good player in the league.

1:03:51Bill Simmons:You know who was never getting traded ever? Tim Duncan.

1:03:53Max Kellerman:Yeah, right. Okay, fine. Ever. Fine. I agree with what you're saying about Will. and they used to say, I never got to see Will play really, but I used to hear, if you needed points, he'd give you assists. If you needed assists, he'd give you points. Okay, fine. You could put Bill Russell ahead of him. Not have him five. So I'd have Will five, you have Bird and Magic right after that. Fine, whatever. So you think Duncan is right after Bird and Magic? I do.

1:04:15Bill Simmons:And guess what? I think Jokic is coming. But yeah, I don't think it can only be with one title. Agreed. Because now we're in the titles. I don't love the ring culture, but it's really tough to put a one title guy in the top eight of all time. But I said this last month to Legler. I think he's the best offensive player I've ever seen. I wasn't there for Wilt, but of anyone I've watched in my lifetime, Jordan was the best player I've ever seen.

1:04:40Max Kellerman:He's a better offensive player too, Bill. I don't know. Yes, of course, Jokic is going to shoot better because in this era, you're going to take those shots so much more.

1:04:48Bill Simmons:Everything he does, it doesn't matter who's on his team. His team is going to score points. He will figure out what do we need today? I'll do that. And he's just gonna, I've just never seen a guy like him in person. I saw, I was there for the entire Jordan thing and saw great Jordan games.

1:05:06Max Kellerman:You think Yoke is a good offensively as Larry Bird for his,

1:05:09Bill Simmons:you have to say for his era,

1:05:11Max Kellerman:because of course the skills improve.

1:05:13Bill Simmons:And as you know, Larry Bird is my favorite player of all time and my sports hero. I think he was a better offensive player because, because of the size is what makes it better in his like,

1:05:23Max Kellerman:okay. In an absolute sense, all the athletes are always getting better because they're building on what came before them, right? True. Okay. But I mean, for his, so this is a thought experiment I do. In the one sport that's measured objectively, we know track and field, the guys are getting better because better means faster, right? There's no debate. It's track and field and cars are the two things that work for this. You can measure this. Stopwatch.

1:05:45Bill Simmons:A 1963 Porsche versus a Porsche now. Exactly.

1:05:48Max Kellerman:You can't compare the cars. So the 10th best sprinter in the world today is much, much better than Jesse Owens. Yeah. But that's a ridiculous statement to make because we're not, There are two different eras. Who's the greater?

1:06:00Bill Simmons:This is the Bob Cousy argument. Sure. This is why I get mad when Cousy just gets cut out because he played a million years ago. It's like, well...

1:06:08Max Kellerman:At that time...

1:06:09Bill Simmons:At that time, he was the most important basketball player we had until Russell showed up. And he was the best guard of the first 15 years of the league. That has to matter a little bit. Absolutely.

1:06:18Max Kellerman:And I would say that Jokic, in his day, as great as he is, I'll take Larry Bird in his day.

1:06:29Bill Simmons:Larry Bird... It's a good argument because Larry, three straight MVPs and then 87 was his best season. I remember as a kid and my dad loved Larry Bird

1:06:37Max Kellerman:which killed me as a Knicks fan because he said the Celtics play, the way they played reminded him of the Knicks championship teams. Like the unselfish way they played. But I was like, all I knew was Boston Celtics, Larry Bird, get out of here with that dad, right? But inside, I remember thinking, I'm a little kid, I'm thinking, I'll never see anybody this good again. Like the whole thing with Bird and Magic came because Magic was able to adapt and he played longer and he had this weird prime that just kept going even as he kind of adjusted as a player.

1:07:11Bill Simmons:In 99, that's what Bird really only had the nine years and then his body started to break down. Magic had like 11.

1:07:17Max Kellerman:When they were both at their best head to head. Bird was slightly better. And that was kind of, that wasn't really debated. You know, in fact, like the guy who Larry was compared to early, it's a little revisionist history now because it's perfect with the college stuff and everything. Yeah. Was Dr. J commercially. Right. Right. But you have that behind you over your right shoulder.

1:07:36Bill Simmons:The bird versus Dr. J. Right.

1:07:38Max Kellerman:Yeah. Yeah. The converse ads or whatever.

1:07:41Bill Simmons:Philly was their rival. It was funny because the Lakers, they played them in the finals those three times. But Philly was the that was the hump to get over year after year. Dude.

1:07:50Max Kellerman:Yeah.

1:07:51Bill Simmons:You know, but but at any rate. He's another one who's slipped through the cracks of history now.

1:07:54Max Kellerman:Yeah, because the ABA. But in the ABA, he was God.

1:07:58Bill Simmons:I would say the first six, seven years of NBA, in person, he was unbelievable to see in person with his fucking Freddy Krueger going into the lane with one arm, all that shit. But Bird and Magic were like... They were different. They were different. So that's why I think Jokic is in that conversation with them because of what he does, he can completely change the identity of guys who, if they didn't play with him, would have had completely different careers. And that's a different list.

1:08:28Max Kellerman:The first time he had a shot at it, he has, you know, if there's a guard on your team who's a B +, but in the playoffs he becomes an A+. Yeah. And I know Jokic wasn't quite in his prime yet, but you can't rise to that same level in that series. That's, you know, that's like LeBron against Dallas.

1:08:47Bill Simmons:But he loses two Murray playoffs. years because Murray gets hurt right before the playoffs.

1:08:53Max Kellerman:And as soon as he had a shot and they get Aaron Gordon, they get the right kind of third guy.

1:08:58Bill Simmons:Honestly, last year what he did against OKC was pretty amazing just to even drag that series to seven games. And Gordon had a big piece of that too. He's an incredible

1:09:08Max Kellerman:player, but I'm Jokic. But I'm with you. He's a guy who like one championship would make, like Aaron Rodgers. Aaron Rodgers just winning one Super Bowl it ain't going to cut it in the all-time arguments because his talent suggests, like, wait, you're with Drew Brees and them? You're so much better than those guys, right? It's true. But this is why Curry's 22 is so important. So important. Because that's the first time he was the best player on either team

1:09:36Bill Simmons:in a championship. He pulled that up. There's no way they win unless he goes crazy.

1:09:41Max Kellerman:For me, that put Curry in the top 10 ever conversation regardless of position.

1:09:46Bill Simmons:So the thing with Jokic and Duncan and Bird and Magic is, is I think it's actually impossible not to win 50 games if you had those guys in their peak. And this is the part that thinks Kobe, who I've kind of come around, especially when I wrote my book versus what the 0-9-10 was so important for him, those last two titles. But those middle three years in the Lakers, when it was like, all right, dude, now you have to carry us. The team's not that good. And they just weren't, even in 0-6, like when he drags them to 45 wins, there's no 45 win Tim Duncan season.

1:10:20Max Kellerman:So there are different ways to look at this. If I have nothing, I have garbage on my team, and I want to get my team as close as possible to winning a championship, LeBron James is the answer to that, right? I would throw Jokic in there too, though. Okay.

1:10:35Bill Simmons:Jokic said that year after Murray, I can't remember if Aaron Gordon was on there or not, but you go back and you look at the roster he had.

1:10:42Max Kellerman:Yeah, not good. It's like, how is this a playoff contender? You can take it. My pick all time would be LeBron. If you have something, if you have something on your team, my pick is Michael Jordan, because every time Michael Jordan ever played with one other all star, except for when he came back for 20 something games, he won. He never didn't win the championship in under seven games.

1:11:02Bill Simmons:I mean, he almost won in 90 before Pippen was Pippen.

1:11:05Max Kellerman:Right. By the way, they go to seven games against the defending back-to-back champions. Pippen gets a migraine. Pippen gets a migraine. And otherwise, maybe he wins right... The point is with Kobe, not that... So he's more like Jordan. Give Kobe something to work with. And he's going to take you as far as you can go.

1:11:26Bill Simmons:I still feel like there was some behind-the-scenes stuff with him that had to sort itself out over the years with his personality. There was too much written about what a tough teammate he was. It's the hardest thing to put into context with his career because his own coach was writing books about how impossible he was to coach, right? And then they hashed it out and they really figured out an unbelievable relationship over the second part of it. But that's still, you have to look at the first half of his career. You have to count that in at least a little bit.

1:11:56Max Kellerman:So Bill James once wrote about Karl Yastrzemski and Stan Musial, you know, and showed all the ways they were similar, Musial on a higher level, right? Have there ever been two superstars where they're among the greatest players in the history of American team sports, both, and one of them was such a close replica of the other. Kobe is, in terms of his size, his position, his game, his accomplishments, how effective he was.

1:12:31Bill Simmons:Well, he also studied Jordan and actually tried to emulate him. And he also had to be 6 '6 and play shooting guard

1:12:37Max Kellerman:and have the same coach and everything. But he, you have the greatest, I think Michael Jordan, to me, is clearly and by far the greatest athlete who ever lived. Like, in his sport, the greatest athlete who ever lived. Everyone wanted to be like Mike, right? There were commercials. No one, like the next guy who came into the conversation who actually made it an argument had to do something different. It was LeBron, right? He's like kind of the first postmodern player where he's like, I'm magic and Michael. And with some Dr. J. Yeah. Kobe was the first, was the only guy really with the guts to say, I'm going to, you know, people misuse the word emulate all the time, right?

1:13:14Max Kellerman:They think it means imitate, but really it means imitate in a way that surpasses. You're trying to surpass the original. Kobe had the guts to try to do the same thing the greatest of all time did, better than the greatest of all time did it. I don't think he got there, but he was basically Michael Jordan. He was like Michael Jordan minus a hair, right? But damn, that's good. That's so good.

1:13:41Bill Simmons:Well, and then he used some of the career advantages that his era had to try to beat him, which is what LeBron's doing too. Like Jordan basically, he's comes in three years in college age 35 is like 42 now that's when that's when he won the 98 title right it's like oh my god he's 35 and now you know he can play 20 years and that's why like even you look at the football like why Rogers who seemed like he was done last year it's like maybe he's not done like who knows with all the shit we have and now now you watch him like oh yeah he's done

1:14:14Max Kellerman:yeah he's not he hasn't been but you have to at least

1:14:16Bill Simmons:keep the door open for him not being done he hasn't been great in like three or four years. We got to take another break. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. You know why elite point guards make everyone better? It isn't just the no luck dimes. It's because they know everything. Who's hot? Who's tired? What the defense is doing? Which teammate needs a basket? Most businesses don't have that. Sales run one play. Marketing runs another. Nobody told service. The game plan has now changed. HubSpot gives you that point guard vision, one platform, full customer context. And that context is everything you need to win.

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1:15:29Max Kellerman:We didn't really solve the honest trade thing. I don't... The reason I think it will be the Spurs if he's traded is because the opportunity is there that is irresistible.

1:15:41Bill Simmons:It's irresistible. If I'm trying to win titles or make finals, I'm doing the way LeBron thought about the decade in the 2010s. Like, I'm staying in the East. I have a much better chance. I don't have to see OKC. I don't have to see Denver. I don't have to see Houston. Where would they rank?

1:15:56Max Kellerman:If Wemby turns into what we think he might. If he turns in, take the median kind of like. Can Wemby play like two months straight? That's the problem. He's gigantic in a way that you just don't know about his health. But Giannis and Wemby together. Would be amazing. And maybe like the greatest pair ever. They have a chance.

1:16:12Bill Simmons:Easier to make the finals if he can pull off Atlanta. and not. Detroit would be the other one, but if I'm Detroit, I'm just not doing anything crazy. I really like my team. I agree. I'm not winning the title this year. We talked, Zach and I were talking, we did a pod a couple weeks ago, and I used to have, what would Belichick do? As the mantra, back when Belichick was throwing 100 miles an hour and just knew the roster and when to get rid of guys. And now it's, what would Presti do? And you have to look at these NBA teams and be like, all right, if Presti ran Detroit, what would he do? And he'd be like, he wouldn't trade for Anthony Davis.

1:16:44Bill Simmons:That's not happening. Markkinen? I don't think he'd do anything. I think he'd look at it and go, let's have an awesome year. OKC is probably going to win anyway. Let's go into the summer and really figure out what to do.

1:16:56Max Kellerman:This was like with the Celtics. I remember talking about it at the time. They lost again in the playoffs. And it was like, given the age of Tatum and Brown, let's say, and I said at the time, now they won the very next season. But I said, let's say over the next three years, they make the conference finals twice, the finals once, and they don't win anything.

1:17:14Bill Simmons:You're basically OKC in the early 2010s.

1:17:17Max Kellerman:Well, by then, your two best players are 29 and 28. Yeah. And they may win four championships still. Like, everyone's in such a rush. You know, if you have a nucleus you believe in, let it bake a little bit. Give it some time.

1:17:32Bill Simmons:30-team league. All right. This segment is called Topics Max is Mad He Missed Out On.

1:17:38Max Kellerman:Yeah.

1:17:39Bill Simmons:Then we should mention, you were on ESPN for a while. You got bought out as part of the buyout. this also happened to Zach. This has happened to a bunch of people. It happened to me, sort of, where my last five months when I was there, when they weren't going to renew my contract, and it was kind of a staring contest, I was like, fine, I'll figure out the ringer. I'll take this time.

1:17:58Max Kellerman:They didn't buy me out, by the way. They just... I just wrote out my contract. Right, right. You wrote it out.

1:18:02Bill Simmons:Yeah. So it's... But you didn't get to work. No. You missed out on some topics. Yeah. I asked you to send me a list. I'll go through them quick. or you can stop me whenever you want. Number one, Hal Steinbrenner is too poor to own the Yankees.

1:18:20Max Kellerman:Yeah.

1:18:20Bill Simmons:You've been itching for two years to talk about this.

1:18:22Max Kellerman:I think Hal is doing, I think he cares. I think he's a good owner. Like his intentions are good. But he's worth a couple billion dollars in a sports environment now where the richest owners are worth 10 times that. And so he's running it like a business that he needs to profit from. Not just where he enjoys the increase in the equity, but he wants to see a profit, right? And as a result, he has turned the Yankees into a generic powerhouse big market team. The Yankees have won. I don't insist the Yankees win the World Series every year. I'm not actually insane. But this is my number one sports team out of all of them, right?

1:18:59Max Kellerman:I do insist on the following, though. They win more than anyone else. And they certainly win more World Series than the Red Sox and the Dodgers. They're two traditional rivals in the American National League. In this century so far, which is a quarter of the way through, the Yankees have won one World Series, the Red Sox have won four, and the Dodgers have won three. The Yankees are failing. They're failing. They are a powerhouse team every year. They're excellent. They're generally well-run, good, generic, big powerhouse, big market team. That is not the New York Yankees. New York Yankees were by far and away the number one franchise in the history of American team sports.

1:19:47Max Kellerman:They went from 1920 to 1965, winning half the World Series ever played. Even then after that, they were a powerhouse again in the 70s and they had the greatest dynasty in the history of modern baseball in the late 90s. They won four out of five World Series. They came an out away from winning five out of six World Series. It was insane. And from that point, basically, and the only reason, George Steinbrenner is very overrated also, and I liked him in a way, but the only reason the Yankees got great was because he was kicked out of baseball and they couldn't trade away their prospects. You know, that's why.

1:20:27Max Kellerman:Right. He was colluding with the other owners when Jack Morris and these guys were available and he didn't sign them. When the Yankees were in inflection point, they could have been a powerhouse again and they weren't because he was in cahoots with the other owners to stick it to the players. But the Yankees brand, which doesn't just mean, hey, we're top notch. It means we're the best by far. We are the standard that every other sports team aspires to be.

1:20:57Bill Simmons:He's frittering it away. Well, it's funny because the same thing is happening in Boston where we flip it, right? We have the four World Series this year through 2018. And then the team's kind of being run the same way the Yankees are being run. They spend enough money to make it. The Red Sox. Yeah. They spend enough money to make it seem like they're spending enough money. Right. The stadium's packed. They're making shitloads of money. But something's not, it's not as dire. It's not like. Because you guys are like someone's house poor. Because we already won. Because no, because your house poor, your owner is team poor.

1:21:32Bill Simmons:Well, because, yeah, because he is the Fenway Sports Group where they have Liverpool and the Penguins, all this shit.

1:21:37Max Kellerman:Too much. But we're not just the Yankees aren't house poor for baseball. The owner is actually, by the standards of Major League Baseball owners, one of the poorest Major League Baseball owners. But he has less wealth than the others. Mark Walters are these guys who take over teams and are worth$20 billion immediately, can hire Friedman or whoever they want to play money ball with money, right? And crush everyone every year.

1:22:05Bill Simmons:Well, this is what I'm worried about the Lakers. The Lakers for the last, really since the good doctor got sick, they're being run by the fucking succession family. The bumbling bus they just stumble into. They already had Kobe. And then, you know, they're terrible for most of the 2010s. LeBron just decides, I'd really like to live in Los Angeles to get him. Then Rich is running LeBron's life. He also has AD. He's like, AD wants to go to the Lakers. I'm going to make this happen. Now they have those two guys together. And then right as it's about to fail again, here's the Luka Doncic trade out of nowhere.

1:22:41Bill Simmons:The buses did nothing. And now they're being run correctly by the Dodgers owner who's like, hey, let's spend on scouting. Let's spend on consultants. The buses drove away Jerry West. Like, what did they do good other than have these people fall into their laps?

1:22:56Max Kellerman:Well, the irony of Dr. Jerry Buss, who, unlike Steinbrenner, deserves every accolade he gets. He's an amazing owner. He's the greatest owner by far history of American team sports. Not close. I mean, I remember... Definitely the greatest basketball owner. It's not even an argument. It's not an argument. I remember when he showed up at the Lakers practice and it was when they had traded for Nash and Dwight Howard and it wasn't going well. And I we were we had him on the show and I was wondering why he showed up because Steinbrenner would have showed up. Yeah. We demand to win. And he's like, I just wanted to make sure that everyone was getting what they needed.

1:23:31Max Kellerman:I wanted to see if anyone needed anything that they weren't getting. Right. And this guy was he was unbelievable. Like his whole tenure was unbelievable. It's so hard to win in professional sports at all. This guy not only won, but wanted to win in a certain style. That makes it, you're already, it's already impossible. Now you're, forget it. You can't do that because you have stipulations of how you are going to win. I want it to be exciting. He did it to the point, Bill, when I was a kid, I think the Celtics had 13 championships and the Lakers had like six. Now it's like they're neck and neck all the time.

1:24:08Bill Simmons:Yeah, because they count the Minnesota titles.

1:24:10Max Kellerman:But they caught up. They caught up to the Celtics. That's like someone catching the Yankees. The Celtics were more than double ahead of everybody else.

1:24:19Bill Simmons:The problem now is because they had this incredible player, Luka Doncic. And they also have Reeves, who somehow wasn't in the Luka Doncic trade, which for reasons that we'll never, for 50 years from now, I'm going to be, I'm hopefully alive wondering why he wasn't in the trade.

1:24:33Max Kellerman:But can you win with Luka's style? This is something Rich and I talk about. Like, you know, it's like James Harden 2.0. I think he's better than Harden. I think he has a chance to be better than Harden was. But can you win with that style? There's some good signs, though.

1:24:44Bill Simmons:He's already made the finals as the best guy in a finals team, right? But Harden got super, got farther than he should have.

1:24:52Max Kellerman:You know, it took the worst shooting performance ever for him not to make a finals by the whole team.

1:25:00Bill Simmons:So I thought the Lakers were going to be like a playing team. Me too. I didn't know.

1:25:06Max Kellerman:I don't think. I thought maybe not even a play-in team.

1:25:08Bill Simmons:Reeves and Luka are averaging, I think, 63 points a game. Dude, J.J. Redick. Which is, I think that might be the record for two teammates. I don't know if two teammates have ever been over 60. J.J.

1:25:20Max Kellerman:Redick, man. That's my mind goes right to J.J. Redick. The job he has done when LeBron wasn't there and sometimes Luka wasn't there. Right. Defensively. And like the team is playing. He's his attention to like, cause think of what a head coach has to be. You have to be a leader. You have to get people on the same page. You need buy-in.

1:25:40Bill Simmons:Would you see that play last night when LeBron was talking to the sun's bench during a blowout and they called the play and JJ got pissed and he called timeout. And that, that really bothered me, man, that LeBron, like I understand why JJ was so pissed. Yeah. But he's, I think they respect him. They have a pretty weird team, right? Nobody wanted DeAndre. The guy, I think two franchises were like, we'll pay this guy to go away, basically. He's been excellent. They have Reeves and Luka who are just two defensive liabilities. There's no other way to put it. And then this hodgepodge of role players, and they didn't have LeBron for almost 15 games.

1:26:15Max Kellerman:And yet they were winning without LeBron or Luka at times. And they were playing defense with a team that shouldn't be able to play defense.

1:26:22Bill Simmons:They had a little schedule luck, but not a ton. Well, recently. But I watched them, and I'm like, the team likes each other. and they're really well coached and they have two awesome offensive options at the end of the games. And as long as Aiton is okay.

1:26:37Max Kellerman:His number one pick for a reason. Like, you know, he was not like... He was in the finals going against Giannis. Yeah, it's not like he was a bad player. He did some things very well

1:26:44Bill Simmons:and they're exploring it. Man, worse reputation. But it reminded me of like one of those old, where the Yankees would go grab somebody. It was like, oh, that guy has a shitty reputation. But back to the Yanks, I think the thing the Yanks and Red Sox have in common is, hey, you're doing fine. You're making money. You're in the playoffs. there's this other level you could be at that the Dodgers have figured out. Where the Dodgers are like, they're spending the craziest amount of money. But I think they also make money in their winning World Series. They figured out the Far East. I feel like that's something the Yankees would have figured out 20 years ago.

1:27:17Bill Simmons:And they tried. They signed a bunch of Asian players, right? But they would have figured out, like, there's so much money over there. This could be a pipeline for us.

1:27:25Max Kellerman:And the Yankees took unheralded guys compared to some of the Japanese superstars like Tanaka, who was great. Great under pressure. Like, it's a shame that guy never won a World Series because he was such a great pitcher. Metzli was a good one. And history will forget him, right, compared to some of these other guys. And that's a shame. No, you're right. The Yankees and the Red Sox are stuck in this, in their generic powerhouse big market teams who are like, oh, shucks, the playoffs are a crapshoot. Meantime, the Dodgers find that that blue chip guy. And they're like, we don't care what it costs.

1:28:02Max Kellerman:We're going to get that guy.

1:28:03Bill Simmons:Getting Mookie was brilliant.

1:28:06Max Kellerman:One of the greatest players of all time.

1:28:07Bill Simmons:Signing Freeman.

1:28:09Max Kellerman:Was that right?

1:28:10Bill Simmons:They didn't really need to have to do it. And the Red Sox were allegedly in the mix, but not really. But they didn't need Freeman. But they said, fuck it. 10 years ago, the Red Sox get Freeman. Yeah. Yeah. Yamamoto, same thing. Like they didn't technically need Yamamoto, but they're like, fuck it. This guy's amazing. Let's get him. Freeman is a perfect example.

1:28:26Max Kellerman:Hall of Fame guy toward the end of his career, but it ain't over yet. He's still near enough his prime. And you want him in any playoff series, in any game. Oh, an incredible playoff performer where the Yankees look at a guy like Goldschmidt, who was never as good as Freeman, but like maybe, and okay, we'll get him. Maybe he can have a bounce back here. Come on. On a short deal. Really? How about pushing your chips to the middle of the table for the surefire blue chipper?

1:28:51Bill Simmons:Well, my buddy Jacko, my college roommate, diehard Yankee fan, who hates Hal Steinbrenner with the passion of seven sons. He thinks that Cashman and these guys would rather kind of strike oil with the Trent Grisham kind of signing versus actually like going to just get Yamamoto. It's almost like he feels better. It's more, this is Jack O's theory. He feels like it's more impressive to land these like unheralded gems.

1:29:19Max Kellerman:If you're looking for a GM, Cashman's a very good GM. He's not good enough to be the Yankees GM because again, as a Yankees fan, I insist you must be the best. If you're not the best GM, you shouldn't be the Yankees GM. But he's fine. He's good. He does things like if you are looking for an athletic, highly drafted, like high draft position, disappointing outfielder who you can get on the cheap, Nick Swisher or Curtis Granderson or Grisham you just brought up, Cashman's your guy. Yeah. You'd be like, wow, he really picked up that good, useful outfielder who's actually look at that. He has 35 home runs.

1:30:00Max Kellerman:Gave up very little to get him. Boy, that's great. You know what? Sometimes you pull the trigger on a Garrett Cole trade, even if you have to throw in one of your overrated prospects that you'd like to hold on to. Right. Like and he doesn't. you have to like so this is the Clippers got it wrong when they pushed all the chips in for Paul George and Kawhi Leonard and the Yankees get it wrong when they never push all their chips in for the real thing is you have to identify the right target the Dodgers say Mookie Betts Freddie Freeman they're also really good at getting rid of guys

1:30:37Bill Simmons:at the perfect time and some of those guys ended up on the Red Sox where it's like oh we got Bueller yeah it's like yeah the Dodgers weren't that interested in keeping him I wonder why well because he's not oh we traded for Dustin May oh he's not good anymore either

1:30:52Max Kellerman:that's the thing getting back to Presti like yeah guys in the league don't like Presti you know why you lose he's better than you yeah you will lose the trade I don't want anyone

1:30:59Bill Simmons:the Dodgers didn't want anymore I don't want my team

1:31:02Max Kellerman:to ever deal with Sam Presti and the Thunder you will lose that trade

1:31:05Bill Simmons:yeah you want your team to get to that point where the other teams that's where Belichick was forever I think the Celtics with Danny Ainge got to that point where it was amazing anyone was trading with Ainge. But that's where you want to be, and the Yankees and Red Sox are just not there. No. And both of them have good pieces, but I don't know. I don't know why the Dodgers wouldn't just keep winning titles, which brings us to the next thing you want to talk about, because this all happened since you've been on the sidelines. Yeah. Otani versus Babe Ruth. Otani's an incredible player. We should mention, you care about baseball.

1:31:41Bill Simmons:That's your favorite sport.

1:31:42Max Kellerman:No, no, no. That's not true. Baseball's not my favorite team sport. The Yankees are my favorite team. Favorite's fine. Basketball is my favorite team sport.

1:31:50Bill Simmons:But you're a big history nerd, and you remember all the stats, and you're one of those guys. So Otani's getting thrown around in the Babe Ruth conversation.

1:31:57Max Kellerman:For obvious reasons. Yep. Left-handed hitter, great pitcher. What Otani is doing in this day and age is harder than what Babe Ruth did in his day and age. but to suggest that Otani is the greatest player of all time. Otani is not the best player in baseball today. Aaron judge is measure regular season, regular season. Aaron judge is measurably objectively much, much better than Otani. Even when you throw in the pitching. Yeah. Including the pitching, you add everything up. Judge has more value because he's so much of a better offensive player. Regular season. But what Otani is doing is harder because the, The more homogenized the league becomes, the harder it is to get a crazy deviation from the mean.

1:32:46Max Kellerman:When Babe Ruth is playing against, it's not an international game yet. Everyone has day jobs. He's playing against the white guys. Right. There's not a lot of diversity or you don't necessarily have all the players there. There's no diversity. You will have players who just suck worse than other players will suck in other eras and players who are incredible more than other eras will have incredible players. So what Otani's doing in this day and age is just unbelievable. But that's the level of difficulty of something and how great a player is are two different things. For example, it is rarer to hit for the cycle than it is to hit three home runs in a game.

1:33:22Max Kellerman:But three home runs in a game are obviously better than hitting for the cycle. Otani is not the best hitter in the game. And people are a little bit lazy with this. I remember watching Wade Boggs at a certain point and he was hitting like 320 at that point in the season. And the announcer said, there's Boggs when he was with the Red Sox in his prime, hitting 320 right where you would expect. And I thought to myself, or he was 330 even. I thought to myself, wait, stop. I know 330 sounds like a very high batting average to you, but that is not where you would expect Wade Boggs. 360 is where you would expect Wade Boggs.

1:33:59Max Kellerman:There is a difference, right? He's that much better at hitting for batting average, at least than everybody else. Don't get lazy and say, so Otani is one of the best hitters in baseball. Babe Ruth wasn't one of the best hitters in baseball. The distance between Babe Ruth and the second best guy was a chasm. Babe Ruth was so much better at the plate than everyone in baseball. That is not Otani. Even though it was easier to do that then, the fact is that's what happened as a pitcher. It's not just that Babe Ruth was maybe the best left-handed pitcher in the league. It's that under pressure, his record for consecutive scoreless innings pitched in the World Series stood longer than his home run record, his single season home run record.

1:34:47Max Kellerman:So it's not just that he was maybe the best left-hander in the American League. He was also the best clutch pitcher in baseball history at that point, probably. right like so so yes so you're pouring everybody a glass of settled down juice settled oh tani's incredible you may never see another otani like we didn't see another babe ruth for a hundred years whatever it is and what otani's doing is amazing he he's not in the conversation with

1:35:14Bill Simmons:babe not in the conversation he does have something that i don't think judge completely has um judge is probably the closest of just owning a ballpark when he's up in a in a big spot there it had it It hasn't happened since early 2000s Bonds. And I don't get the feeling. Bonds was the last guy when he just was walking from the on-deck circle. Judge has it somewhat, especially because of his size. It's just different with Otani.

1:35:40Max Kellerman:No, I think when Judge comes to the plate, it's Judge. I think when he's at the plate, the results in the playoffs, I trust Otani more.

1:35:49Bill Simmons:Something about, yeah. And Ortiz, even Ortiz, who was unbelievable. But it's Bonds in the early 2000s. And I think we both think Bonds is a Hall of Famer.

1:35:57Max Kellerman:Well, the Hall of Fame. Can I talk about that for a second? Yeah.

1:36:00Bill Simmons:This was another thing you want.

1:36:02Max Kellerman:It was on your list. The Hall of Fame is an easy one for the PED era. It's not hard. Why does this escape people? If it is very obvious when the person started juicing, and it's in the statistical record, I can look at someone's stats, especially if I can couple it with a sudden and dramatic change in their appearance. Yes. That is much more compelling evidence than a receipt from Balco, which could be forged.

1:36:25Bill Simmons:Also in the 90s and 80s and even 70s when guys were doing steroids, it was way more obvious. You can see it in the wrestling.

1:36:31Max Kellerman:Seiko, everyone knew.

1:36:32Bill Simmons:Wrestling. Everyone knew. By the way, you can kind of see it in some of the old boxing. Which ones? Well, it's just the guys, the water steroids were the guys, their necks would get bigger. Like, I'm just, I don't want to name names.

1:36:43Max Kellerman:I once asked Shannon Briggs on the radio, who was at this point probably 260 pounds, great guy and a talented fighter. I was like, I know that this is not an either or, but I'm going to ask anyway. steroids are human growth hormone and he goes i've never been caught on a test right right like so but but bonds what you can you can forge a receipt from balco what you can't forge is a player in you know 12 weeks or 16 weeks putting on 30 pounds of lean muscle in his forehead bulging What you can't forge is a, you know, fake is a guy who's home run to at bat ratio in the same ballpark in which he's always played.

1:37:25Max Kellerman:No exterior changes. Doubles at the age of 35. Right. Doubled Barry. But no, but Barry Bonds is a Hall of Famer because he was already one of the two or three or four greatest left fielders who ever lived.

1:37:40Bill Simmons:Right. If he gets hit by a bus in 1999, he's in anyway.

1:37:43Max Kellerman:First ballot hall of fame.

1:37:44Bill Simmons:Clemens gets hit by a bus and. He's borderline. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I guess when he went to Toronto,

1:37:51Max Kellerman:he was in decline. He needs the Toronto Cy Youngs. He was in decline. Yeah. And then suddenly he goes to Toronto and back to back pitching triple crowns or whatever. That probably gets it. And who knows what he was doing. I think with longevity and everything, Clemens deserves to be in. McGuire is an absolute no. Sosa is an absolute no, because I can show you, I don't have to go through it now in their record where they, they fundamentally became a different player. at a certain point where their stats exploded. See, I would put all these guys in.

1:38:17Bill Simmons:You would put them all in? I wrote this, I think, for ESPN, the magazine, maybe in 06, 07. Just put it on the plaque. It's a Hall of Fame. It's a museum. I'm supposed to bring my son, my grandson, whoever, and teach them about baseball. We're not going to have the most important guy. What am I rewarding, though? The guy's already retired, and I'm putting it on their plaque that they cheated.

1:38:40Max Kellerman:I have a problem with it.

1:38:41Bill Simmons:And also, how do we know all these sports? I don't know who's cheating and not cheating. The drugs are better.

1:38:47Max Kellerman:Fundamentally, Maguire and Sosa, when you look at what they had done in their career, how it was trending, the kind of player they were, were not Hall of Famers. And then they suddenly became first ballot Hall of Famers. That's fair. Bonds was already, let's say, a 440 on base, 650 slugging guy.

1:39:02Bill Simmons:Piazza, who's never been, we never figured it out one way or the other.

1:39:07Max Kellerman:Piazza, in his minor league career, I don't think ever slugged 500. And then eventually he was playing catcher for 140 plus games a year and hitting 40 home runs and hitting three, whatever. And his on base was in the over 400 is slugging over 600. You can do with Piazza what you want.

1:39:30Bill Simmons:You don't think this is happening in other sports now? Of course it is. Of course it is. That's why I just think the guy, it was easier to figure out who was doing it in baseball because of what the, what the drugs made people look like.

1:39:42Max Kellerman:And like, but like, but I just want to, just like with Otani or with Boggs. No, he's not usually at three 30. He's at three 60. There's a difference to say when bonds was a mid 400 on base, mid 600 slugging guy. So people understand you can't really do better than that. Hardly. That's like one of the greatest ever. He did it every year. He then went from that at the age of 35. to a 600 on base guy, 800 slugging guy. It's like in the comics, if Captain America was this skinny little guy who took super soldier serum and it maxed out human potential, right? But it's as though... It was the limitless drug.

1:40:23Max Kellerman:No, no. It's as though Bonds, instead of being... What's Captain America's name? I forget his name in the comic books. But it's as though instead of taking the little weakling guy and giving him the super soldier serum, You took the biggest, strongest, best athlete in the world, who was Barry Bonds, and gave him super soldier serum. It makes a mockery of the game.

1:40:40Bill Simmons:It seems like it made his eyesight like 2010, 25, 20 slash 5. I mean, what was the one year his on base was like 600? And some of those were intentional walks. Most of them. But it just seemed like he knew where every pitch was going within an inch either way around the strike zone.

1:41:01Max Kellerman:craziest baseball stat I think I've ever heard. That year, it wasn't the 73 home run year. It was another year that he was 600, 800.

1:41:08Bill Simmons:Yeah, there was like a 0-2, 0-3, somewhere in there. He had 40-something home runs because they wouldn't pitch to him.

1:41:12Max Kellerman:Every time the bat left Bonds' shoulder, every time he took a swing, it was almost a 50-50 proposition whether he missed the ball entirely. Between these two outcomes, it was almost 50-50. Missing the ball entirely, getting an extra base hit. He was just about as likely to get an extra base hit every time he swung as he was to miss the ball. So anyway, so Bonds is a first ballot hall, should have been a first ballot hall of famer in spite of the steroids and everything, but he is not the greatest hitter of all time. In other words, it's demonstrable that Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, now Aaron Judge were better hitters than Bonds at Bonds' very best until he started changing.

1:41:53Max Kellerman:and then Bonds became the best, but I don't give him credit for that because it wasn't him. It was him plus. But he's still a Hall of Famer. Clemens, borderline, because of longevity he's in because he was a borderline Hall of Famer at the point where it was clear something was going on. McGuire is also no way. And so on, right? Like, this stuff ain't that hard.

1:42:16Bill Simmons:Do you have any Mahomes when the GOAT stuff started for him? I think you were on the sidelines for that. It was a little early.

1:42:22Max Kellerman:Well, I'd said it after the first preseason game I saw him before he started, before he was going to be the starter that year, so his second season. I was on first take and I said, I know it's one preseason game, but I will tell my grandkids that I saw Patrick Mahomes play. I tell you that right now. I'm going to tell my grandkids I saw him play. Mahomes has something that Brady never had, which is this. To say you're the Michael Jordan of a sport doesn't simply mean you're the greatest of all time. what it means is you put your eyeballs on that guy and you say that looks different i haven't seen anything quite like that yet that i haven't seen that that's my eyes are telling me that's something new then you look down at the stats and you go oh my god that it verifies what my eyeballs are 40 touchdowns four picks whatever right then you look at this at the how far his team is going and they're winning tons of championships.

1:43:22Max Kellerman:Yeah. That's how you become the Michael Jordan of a sport. Now is Mahomes near Brady right now? No, of course not. Brady beat him head to head when Brady was old and Mahomes was young, even though Mahomes didn't have an offensive line, but still Brady never looked the way Mahomes did as bad as Mahomes did in that. Well, he looked incredible in that Super Bowl in certain ways because he had to make spectacular plays, but his team got slaughtered because Mahomes has since then also not looked good in another Superbowl. Right. But Brady, when you, when we remember him, it was like, Oh, this guy's got something, but he was kind of like, um, Jeter and Peyton was like a rod.

1:44:02Max Kellerman:I remember right in those columns 20 years ago that, that Jeter was right.

1:44:07Bill Simmons:Because one of them were like Russell Chamberlain, like same kind of thing.

1:44:10Max Kellerman:If you look at the numbers, one guy's better, but if you watch them, you know which one you want. If you're life dependent on it for one game, you're not picking the guy with the numbers. And then Brady, who was also, like Jeter and Kobe, a little overrated in the clutch early on. In the sense that, like, the highest level of clutch to me is the Mariano Rivera Strata, or the Michael Jordan Strata. You are the best who ever did it, and in the biggest moments you become much, much better than yourself, who's the best ever. And it's shocking if you don't come through. It's shocking. So, like, Mariano Rivera has the lowest adjusted ERA in the history of baseball for pitchers with over 1 ,000 innings.

1:44:46Max Kellerman:His adjusted ERA in the postseason is one-third of that, or his ERA in the postseason is one-third of his regular season ERA, which is the lowest ever. Yeah. Okay? Michael Jordan, the same thing. He got better. Kobe, Jeter, and Brady, I think, are on a level where people think of them as clutch because they just stayed who they were under pressure. I don't think early on, Brady elevated under pressure. I think he was still just a really good player.

1:45:12Bill Simmons:Well, he had the first-round Super Bowl. Well, he was that kind of guy. Sets up the field goal with 35 seconds left.

1:45:17Max Kellerman:Yeah, because he's a clutch player. But I didn't notice him. Panther Super Bowl. But did you feel like his performance when you watched him week in and week out got better in the playoffs? No, that was Brady. He would do stuff like that. What I'm saying is... I trusted him completely in the playoffs. Obviously, right? What I'm saying is a thing happened to Brady midway through his career where he started putting up Peyton Manning numbers and he started actually elevating in the playoffs, like the comeback against Atlanta. The Butler game. The Butler, exactly.

1:45:45Bill Simmons:That's when, right around then, it tilted, but they still needed a play on defense. But he scores those last two touchdown drives against an incredible defense. He went from Jeter-Coby level with that stuff

1:45:57Max Kellerman:to Jordan Rivera level. By the way, the Eagles Super Bowl. What, 500 yards?

1:46:02Bill Simmons:Yeah, and I think they had, what, they had 40 points? Somewhere around there?

1:46:06Max Kellerman:Really, that Super Bowl came down to a brand of, It was the first team to make a defensive play is going to win this game. And it was the Eagles who made the defensive play.

1:46:13Bill Simmons:The other crazy thing with Brady was they never really, I mean, he lucked out, or didn't luck out the draft room, but Gronk was like the big ad. And then Edelman turned in. But they never, it wasn't like, I watched what the Bears did for Caleb Williams. So they're spending first round picks, trading for guys.

1:46:29Max Kellerman:Never had a situation like that. Brady is different in the sense that when you put your eyes on him originally, it wasn't like, I've never seen this before. Oh my God. Then you look at the stats. Oh, my God. That verifies what my eyes see.

1:46:40Bill Simmons:There was something about Brady when he got the job. Because I remember being in Boston that year, and all we did was argue about Brady versus Bledsoe for three months. And I was in the Brady camp. And I think I was writing for ESPN at the time, so I can back that up. But there was a polish to him. Everything he did was just really high end. The play actions were perfect. The way he handed it off was always on time. The passes, the guys always caught it. He was the guy you wanted. You could just kind of tell like, oh, there's something different. This guy just does everything well. I don't know what he is, but he's something.

1:47:12Bill Simmons:Whereas Bledsoe was the classic overpaid. He was like a lamello ball almost.

1:47:17Max Kellerman:I'm not going to mention the executive because I like this guy a lot. I was doing Around the Horn at the time. And I said... Was it Eric Rathome? Nope, it wasn't Rathome. Who was never actually doing Around the Horn when I was around there. Yeah, okay. But I remember saying, I think Brady's better than Bledsoe. And this executive told me, you can't say that on TV because it was at the time where you, and I was like, have you been watching? Like Brady's who you want. So Brady is the goat, obviously, in football, but Mahomes has a chance to do something Brady really wasn't in the running to do. Brady, like through his prime, was Brady better than Montana?

1:47:56Max Kellerman:Montana was four and oh in the Super Bowl. Montana 13 touchdowns, no interception.

1:48:01Bill Simmons:He's the Tim Duncan of NFL. He's just been cast aside. Cast, but better than Duncan in his sport. When 1990, by the time he won that fourth one, we were like, Montana's the best. We'll never see another one. And now he's kind of gone. But Brady outlasted Montana.

1:48:16Max Kellerman:Yeah. You can't put Montana ahead of Brady because Brady did it for so long. But at their best, fate of the universe on the line, I don't think I'm taking Brady over Montana.

1:48:25Bill Simmons:I think Brady would even probably take Montana over Brady. I don't know. I think to me, it's a toss-up. Montana's also such a cool dude.

1:48:31Max Kellerman:He really was. everything about him. First of all, his name is Joe Montana. He got in the way with this shit. Joe Montana. You have the nerve to actually be the greatest who ever did it. And your name is Joe Montana.

1:48:42Bill Simmons:He was doing it during this time when quarterbacks just got the fucking shit beaten out of them. He was so tough. I follow a couple of Instagram accounts where they'll just show old hits. Sometimes there was this hit on Jaworski that I had forgotten about. Oh, when he gets hit from behind, I think it's a giant. It's like, is he dead? What just happened? it's unbelievable. But yeah, Montana had a bad one against Jim Burt was the bad one with him. Where I think he got knocked out in the playoff game. I'll remind everyone, by the way,

1:49:09Max Kellerman:speaking of Montana, oh, the Chiefs are cooked, this and that. There was a year that Montana won the Super Bowl, you know, with the catch, right? Like that year. At one point, I want to say he was 6-5? Something like that? They won the Super Bowl that year. Like, Brady set a standard. You win seven Super Bowls. It's just insane. The Tampa one really pushed her over the top. I know. Plus beating Mahomes twice. The Tampa one, the fact that is it Brady or Belichick is along with, is it MJ or LeBron, the greatest sports debates of the 21st century. Yeah. And we have an answer to Brady-Belichick, which shocked me, right?

1:49:50Max Kellerman:I just always assume NFL's a coach's league. Belichick's good no matter what he's with.

1:49:54Bill Simmons:See, I don't think we have an answer.

1:49:55Max Kellerman:Dude, he went to the Bucs. it's not that he it's not that he had a good run like Montana did, right? When he went it's he didn't get to the AFC Championship game like Montana did he won the Super Bowl and Belichick has not been back to the playoffs I get it

1:50:14Bill Simmons:but the 2000s Belichick gets the edge he just does he put together those rosters the defense and the special teams and the attention to detail and the way he did the roster

1:50:23Max Kellerman:but could he have done it without Brady? more important than Brady because Matt Castle won a lot of games. They didn't make the playoffs. And by the way... I know, but you lose your quarterback in the eight minutes into a season. Could he have done it? And you look at the backup quarterbacks, my argument always is, of course it's Belichick. Imagine putting Drew Brees or Peyton Manning in. I think Brady gets the 2010s.

1:50:42Bill Simmons:I think he was more important in the second decade. I think Belichick was slightly more important in the first decade. I agree with that. The roster, like all the guys, the way they looked at how to build like a chemistry, the locker room, getting the guys like the Vrabel, Rodney Harrison over and over again.

1:50:58Max Kellerman:But that's not the debate is.

1:51:00Bill Simmons:Also, he had the balls to bench Bledsoe for Brady, which nobody would have done. He never gets credit for that.

1:51:05Max Kellerman:I'm not taking away Belichick's credit for that. I am saying that Belichick was the undisputed greatest NFL coach of all time. Don't even compare anyone to him. I still feel that way. I think Andy Reid is in the conversation. Bill Parcells is in the conversation. there are other people in that conversation in retrospect Andy Reid but Andy Reid lived in the NFC championship game and then as soon as he gets his hands on like a great I think McNabb was a great quarterback but he gets his hands on a roster with real talent lives in the Super Bowl lives there and it's hard like Belichick and Brady

1:51:43Bill Simmons:he needs at least two more before I'm ready to entertain that combo

1:51:46Max Kellerman:Reid?

1:51:46Bill Simmons:yeah here's the problem with Mahomes for the GOAT combo him. He can't throw the deep ball anymore and it's just a fact. And the stats back it up. He doesn't have the receivers. He overthrows them when they're open though. I just don't think he's had that good of a year this year.

1:52:02Max Kellerman:He hasn't this year.

1:52:04Bill Simmons:And he didn't really, last year was the same thing where it was good enough but it wasn't to the same standards he had

1:52:09Max Kellerman:for those first five or six. His best target? No, his best target got old. I would take

1:52:16Bill Simmons:Rice and Worthy and the Patriots right now.

1:52:18Max Kellerman:They're better than the Patriots receivers. I mean, I saw him hit Rice with a dime in this last game that they lost that maybe they don't lose if Rice ball is in his hands just drops the ball right like you can't Mahomes does not have the same threats on the field offensively receiving threats that he used to his favorite target is old and not

1:52:40Bill Simmons:as good anymore I don't know if there's a Tyreek Hill made Mahomes case he could kind of float out there except that when he left they still won a Super Bowl I know but it's just with the stats when you look at the -

1:52:50Max Kellerman:Well, you're talking about the deep ball. Yeah. Right? Like get them some real deep threats and let's see the deep ball.

1:52:55Bill Simmons:We're these pretty fast. All right, we'll take one more break and then, wow, we've been going a long time. You have 20 more minutes than you?

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1:54:32Bill Simmons:Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Well, we said we're going to talk about you leaving ESPN and you weren't able to talk about a lot of stuff. And a lot of other people were talking, including people you did shows with. How frustrating was it for you to sit on the sidelines, be talked about, but not be able to talk?

1:54:52Max Kellerman:That doesn't bother me at all.

1:54:54Bill Simmons:Okay.

1:54:54Max Kellerman:You're talking about me like I'm not sweating anybody like that. But I was very flattered that, you know, because if you go off the air, you're not sure that the sports world would care, right? But people seem to care. I was like, oh, look at that. People are thinking about me. I was very flattered by it, to tell you the truth. and in terms of the stuff that went down behind the scenes there were things said to me in private early on that it's not like anyone said to me hey this is top secret don't repeat this but I think there's a general understanding that if someone's talking to you in private it's a private conversation and I wouldn't repeat that unless they said it was okay to repeat what they told me.

1:55:38Max Kellerman:Yeah. So that's, that's what I could tell you about like the behind the scenes stuff on first take, for example. Um, but in terms like, I'm not, I'm really not worried about that stuff, you know, like.

1:55:51Bill Simmons:But you're, so Steve and A, you're in a relationship with where you're doing a show together for how many years? Four? Five. Five years. You're with this dude every day, seeing him in the mornings commercial breaks you're hanging out and then the show ends or the show ends with you and he moves on with other people and I should say I like Steve and A and I've always gotten along with him I didn't love how he handled the aftermath of you leaving where it was basically like I told you the show would be better I just thought because I think you're really talented you and I have known each other for a while whether it meshed as a show perfectly I don't know the answer to that but I just didn't think that was the right way to handle it.

1:56:33Max Kellerman:If you're doing a debate show and you're a competitive person, why would you want me as a partner? That's bad. You want to go 15 rounds every day with Muhammad Kellerman? That's just bad. It's embarrassing.

1:56:47Bill Simmons:So you think that was part of it? He didn't want to put the time in? Or just want a different type of show? What's your take looking back to years later?

1:56:54Max Kellerman:I don't think that has to do with put the time in. It's a debate show. Thank you. You're ready to roll on all topics. You want to like, like, like if you're, I have an idea. This is what I want to put on TV. I want to spar Bud Crawford every day for 15 rounds and I want everyone to see it. Eventually you're going to say, I don't want to do that anymore.

1:57:18Bill Simmons:And you bring in some other people in a rotating cast. Yeah.

1:57:24Max Kellerman:That's one aspect of it. There are others. In other words, that's what I could tell you from my point of view. Yeah. And I also think that if you make a calculation, that if you can be perceived as a solo act, really, that you can get paid at a certain level that you can't if you're not a solo act, then you'd like to be a solo act or at least perceived that way.

1:57:47Bill Simmons:well so like Mike and the Mad Dog are a good example of a show where it was the two of them together for a long long time and then all of a sudden whatever happened happened Mike got his own show and he stayed on top for do you know who was supposed to be do you know who he wanted to be

1:58:03Max Kellerman:in Mad Dog's new position oh yeah that was the plan I was supposed to go over and work with Mike

1:58:08Bill Simmons:yeah interesting because I got the call who else got the call I don't know but we had like come to

1:58:14Max Kellerman:an understanding. So you're going to leave ESPN

1:58:16Bill Simmons:and do it? I did leave ESPN. But not to do a show with Mike. Yeah. You did the show with Mike?

1:58:23Max Kellerman:No. So what happened? Again, my interpretation of what happened, my analysis is, I think he realized at a certain point they're not going to make me take a partner. Why should I take a partner? Because I'm beating the hell out of the guys across town by myself. I think when he thought they're going to make me take a partner, then it was like, okay, well, I'd like it to be with that guy. And then it was like, I don't need a partner.

1:58:49Bill Simmons:Yeah, that's too bad though. Because I actually think long-term he did need a partner because it's always good to have people to play off of.

1:58:55Max Kellerman:Look, I don't need a partner either. No. But I like having one because I find conversations more interesting than just talking into the wind, you know?

1:59:06Bill Simmons:So over the years you had Brian Kenney.

1:59:08Max Kellerman:Yeah. Jim Lampley, Marcellus Wiley. Marcellus for a while. great partner. And in fact, I become good friends with the people I work with because I like, Bill, you know, better than anybody we're getting away with it. If you're in this business, you're getting away with it. We're talking about sports. Right. And like you'd be doing this anyway. Come on. It's your job as a guy, like an average American guy. It's your job to follow sports. It's like literally what you have to do. You have no choice in the matter, right? You got to find out what's going on and and so how to make that experience even better hang out with your friends and talk about sports right like why would you not want to do that uh it's interesting because steven a was the one partner i've ever had over the over like years yeah where i didn't feel like a relationship was really forming and i like to go to work and and you know you can feel a

2:00:09Bill Simmons:little bit watching it. And it was hard to tell how much of it was theater and how much of it was like, oh, these guys just don't get along in the same way or whatever you feel about who you're working

2:00:19Max Kellerman:with and what the situation is. To me, a cardinal sin is betraying that on the air. You should always be thinking about making the show entertaining. Right. And I do think it reached the point on that show where it was like, come on, dude, we get the first priority is to make good TV.

2:00:35Bill Simmons:Well, it's becomes I mean, good TV is like professional wrestling, right? Right. Both guys have moves. You guys sell the other guy's move. Of course. And I think we've all been in situations who've done this where you're with somebody who, or on a bigger show, where people either sell on your moves or they're not.

2:00:54Max Kellerman:Right. Exactly right. And he's a showman. Like he would, I never had to worry about when the little red light came on that it wouldn't be a show. But it would be like, you don't want to be undermined, you know.

2:01:06Bill Simmons:Is that a fun show to do? Like, did you like doing, what was it, two hours a day of just five days a week of having to react and just be like, preserve the moment stuff?

2:01:16Max Kellerman:The issue with that show is this. What is a hot take? A hot take is a counterintuitive conclusion that on TV, you're going to just state your conclusion. You do analysis about a subject. You come to a conclusion that's counterintuitive. So when you say it, people will be like, what are you talking about? Give me 90 seconds. I'll explain it to you. Oh, at least he has a point of view. if you have if there are 12 topics a day and you have 12 hot takes on those topics because by and large there's a consensus about sports these this guy's good this guy's not as good whatever it is this team is in the right direction the wrong direction whatever it is the consensus is usually correct right yeah sometimes some small percentage of the time Aha.

2:01:59Max Kellerman:In fact, what everyone thinks is not true. If you have a counterintuitive conclusion about every topic in sports every day, you are insane. Like, Skip Bayless is very entertaining, and I always enjoy my interactions with him privately. Yeah. He's insane. You have 12 hot takes a day. Unbelievable. Right. Right. You've come to 12 conclusions that go against the consensus every single day that you're going to. Stephen A has no hot takes. Stephen A almost never. I can't think of any counterintuitive conclusions that he ever reaches. That's not his job on the air. His job is to be the big reactor to a counterintuitive conclusion.

2:02:45Max Kellerman:reactor. Just he's there to hear the crazy conclusion that his partner has come to and actually be the every man with a loud voice like you are crazy. Right. And do it theatrically. So there's a lot of pressure on his partner to come up with a counterintuitive conclusion about everything. Now, how do you do that? Well, you're just making it up. You're doing it for TV. No, what you do is you take a topic and a good producer will start to drill down on the topic and say, okay, so you agree about this. So Mahomes is a great quarterback, but what does he do well? And what does he not? And you keep going down until one or the, until you get a divergent opinion.

2:03:23Max Kellerman:Well, actually, I think he is good at this. No, I think he's good. No, actually the most important player on, we both think this is going to win, this team's going to win the championship. We both think this is why, but no, actually the key player is, other than the superstar is this guy. No, it's that guy. Actually, Draymond Green is the second most important player on the Warriors, right? He's actually the pick and roll partner who does all the dirty work. Victor Rembenyama is the best player in the NBA right now. There you go. There's a counterintuitive conclusion. But you keep digging until you get a divergent opinion and there is your argument.

2:03:55Max Kellerman:But there was a lot of pressure on that show. Like Stephen A's opinion will not diverge into counterintuitive almost ever. So his big take will be, but he'll deliver it theatrically, is Steph Curry is the greatest shooter. that God ever created. Who does not know this? Yeah. Everyone knows this. A counterintuitive take would be, actually, you know who the best shooter on the Warriors is? It's Klay Thompson. Because when you, I'm making this up. I don't believe this. I thought it was Steph. But because when you say greatest, you have to talk about high leverage moments too. And I have more confidence in Klay hitting a high leverage moment three than I do Steph.

2:04:35Max Kellerman:Something like that, right? Right. That will never happen. So there was pressure on that show. For me to keep digging until you hear something you think is crazy.

2:04:45Bill Simmons:This is the perfect example of what you just said. Jalen Brunson is the best Nick of all time.

2:04:52Max Kellerman:There you go. Do you believe that? No. Okay, then you can't say that. It's arguable, though. But you have to keep digging until you find the thing that Bill Simmons thinks is actually true.

2:05:01Bill Simmons:On those shows, if I say that in a production meeting, they're like, that's amazing. They'll go nuts. That's segment two. Let's do it.

2:05:08Max Kellerman:But you should not say the thing you don't believe. you know you should stick with and that's so the difficulty with me on that show was it was a lot of work to keep digging until i said the thing that i believed that would also get a reaction

2:05:23Bill Simmons:but on top of it they're telling you cowboys lakers nicks yankees like they're it's all the big teams for good reason over and over again that's the red meat you fish where the fish are like right now the cowboy is having a little run it's perfect because it's actually reasonable to talk about them. I remember when I was doing Countdown, they're trying to make us lead with the Lakers all the time because that's coming from Bristol. Lead with the Lakers again. It's like, well, can we lead with Memphis? They just traded Rudy Gay and the team's better. I would tell you no. Do not lead with Memphis.

2:05:52Bill Simmons:No, no. Talk about Kobe. Can he make? How high can they get? And then we'd have to do that segment again. Of course. And that's kind of the ESPN red meat philosophy.

2:05:59Max Kellerman:By the way, the first thing I said on first take that drove everyone nuts was Tom Brady is going to fall off a cliff. I remember that.

2:06:06Bill Simmons:That made me angry.

2:06:07Max Kellerman:Yeah. And I, well, the part that I didn't like, and I apologized for about it the next day, and they didn't like it on the show when I apologized was I said, he's going to be a bum in short order. But I was just being kind of, I was talking the way you talk in a bar. Right. Right. Right. I didn't really mean it. I just meant a guy, just a guy, a jag is what I said. Um, but it was just based on every quarterback who ever lived. Is this a defend your meme? Yeah. Yeah. I was, but I was wrong about that because on every quarterback who ever lived after the age of 40 or 41, they fell off a cliff. Yeah.

2:06:37Max Kellerman:He kept going. The odds were that I was correcting what I was saying. That's LeBron right now. Right. They're redefining stuff.

2:06:44Bill Simmons:He's just going to keep getting hurt and have small injuries and his body's going to break down the way Carl Malone stayed once upon a time.

2:06:49Max Kellerman:Correct. But when I said that about Brady, they loved it because that would get traction, right? Because you still remember it 15 years later. Well, it's what can get cut into a social media clip,

2:06:58Bill Simmons:which unfortunately is a lot of the economy of these conversations.

2:07:02Max Kellerman:Right. Like you say things on your podcast, I'm sure all the time, that get repurposed. And it's like, because when you, because again, if all you see is the counterintuitive conclusion and you don't have the analysis of how you got there, then it sounds, you just sound crazy.

2:07:19Bill Simmons:Well, a good one is like we do, we always do the NBA over under pods, which I've been doing since ESPN where the wins, the over-unders, and you go over-under. you're hoping to like in the NFL last year I went 27-5 which will never happen again right this year I'm probably I'm probably closer to 17-15 this year it's still not bad but you're making the case for each team you're not going to be right about all of them and then if they like I thought the Vegas I couldn't figure out who the 7th AFC playoff team was going to be and it was like Vegas Indianapolis Jacksonville so I just went with new coach Pete Carroll following Antonio Pierce easier schedule maybe that's nine and eight.

2:07:57Bill Simmons:I picked them. Sure. They're going to go two and 15. Right. You could cut out the argument I made for them into a clip and it's probably going to be really bad. But you could also take the argument I made for why the Pats, I thought they could be a playoff team. It's, you can cherry pick all this stuff.

2:08:12Max Kellerman:But if you hear the explanation, it's different. You can't go crazy about it,

2:08:15Bill Simmons:is my point.

2:08:15Max Kellerman:By the way, let me say something else about that. If you do real analysis and you always come to the intuitive position, your powers of analysis aren't very good. Right? You're affected by, but you're overly affected by group. You're calling about, it's like you want to have a smart zag every so often. Well, I don't think you even have to look for it. Just if you're really thinking about something. Now, if you come to that counterintuitive conclusion, you're in a room of 100 people and 99 people think you're wrong, you should absolutely double check to make sure that you believe what you think you believe because the chances are you're wrong and they're right.

2:08:47Max Kellerman:But Bill, sometimes you check and you check and you check and you go, no, in fact, I'm right and they're wrong. And that's great. Then you could, you know.

2:08:54Bill Simmons:Well, it's funny. when you talk NFL, there are some things that are reliable every year. Like the new coach following a bad coach. Yeah, a little bump. The bump combined with the easy schedule. Like that was why the Patriots check every single box for, I know this is crazy, but it seems like they could be a playoff team and here are all the reasons why. Right? The Bears are when it gets a little stretchier because they're in a hard division. Who knows if Ben Johnson, we've seen Mike McDaniel, we've seen some of these offensive coordinator geniuses all of a sudden and they're not good when they get a head coach.

2:09:26Bill Simmons:Who knows if Caleb's going to be good? The Bears history outdoors. I picked them to make the playoffs. I didn't feel great about it. But that's one where there was a case,

2:09:36Max Kellerman:and now the case looks awesome. So all year, I thought the... Because I've been watching, I've been going to some Rams games with Rich. Yeah. And I think they have a great quarterback who... Remember when I was saying, if you have to believe you have that guy on your team? One of the reasons I think teams fold against guys like Brady is because when Brady marches the Bucs down the field and throws a touchdown, if you don't have Matthew Stafford on the team, and we had to find out about Stafford, then that already, even in the opposing quarterback's head, you're thinking, of course I'm going to lose to Brady.

2:10:06Max Kellerman:That's what the Patriots have right now. Stafford went right back down the field. Yeah. So they have that guy at quarterback. They have a great third down defense, especially, I think, the Rams. They have a great coach, all that stuff. So all year, I'm saying, I'm thinking, I don't have a platform to talk about it, I think the Rams should be the Super Bowl favorites. Here's a counterintuitive one. And well-coached, too. Great coach. How about right now? Who would be your hot take team to win the Super Bowl right now?

2:10:36Bill Simmons:Hot take team?

2:10:37Max Kellerman:I got one right on the tip of my tongue. What is it? Texans.

2:10:41Bill Simmons:Sal and I talked about that Sunday.

2:10:43Max Kellerman:Oh, yeah?

2:10:44Bill Simmons:So I was doing it from the context of who am I the most afraid to play in a playoff game with my young, precocious New England Patriots. Dude. And it's like, you know what?

2:10:53Max Kellerman:I don't want to see the Texans. No one wants, because if you have a defense that's peaking at the right time and you have a quarterback who might be that dude, right? Have you seen evidence in the past where maybe he could be that, right? And a coach that the players, like a leader of men guy, you know,

2:11:11Bill Simmons:like they got all those things. Yeah, the Bears are the wild card to me in the other conference, just because of the way they ran the ball in Philly kind of broke my brain. Yeah. It's like, oh, that could actually, work in January for at least one upset. I don't know if it could work round after round, and I don't trust Caleb, but that's not nothing.

2:11:31Max Kellerman:No one feels sorry for you right now. You got the coach and the quarterback. That's all you need. And the quarterback is so young, and you're set. Patriots fans are set. You're going to be competitive every year.

2:11:41Bill Simmons:I was just texting somebody about that the other day. Barring something crazy happening, once you have the combo, it's like, this is 12 years. This is it. We can always, you can patch around these two things, but you need the two things to survive.

2:11:55Max Kellerman:Do the Broncos have that combo? Is Bo Nix a combo? I'm not quite there with them, are you? I don't know about Bo Nix. I will say that there have been certain coaches on my mind recently. I mentioned J.J. Redick. He's on my mind a lot. I just, I'm so impressed with what he's doing. Sean Payton is just unbelievable what he's done to that franchise. A mess of a franchise. and that's like it's not an accident it's a culture rebuild

2:12:22Bill Simmons:it's an accountability it's looking for certain guys like all the guys you study all the guys Ray Bull signed they're all like locker room guys like Spillane Spillane Matt Collins Moses like all these dudes who were like well liked on the teams they're on Harold Landry he knew because he coached him and he just he wanted the team to be unselfish got rid of some guys from the Belichick era in some cases just because they were part of the Belichick era Like, they traded Keon Wade, who I actually think was, like, decent. And now plays every snap for the Niners, it seems like. But he was like, you know what?

2:12:55Bill Simmons:This team's moving this way. I want guys that are swimming all the same way this way. Sean Payton. Sean Payton, same thing.

2:13:02Max Kellerman:The Broncos remind me of the old Patriots, like the early Brady Patriots, in the sense that they give you a sense that you're in the game. Like, there are a dozen teams in the NFL right now who think, we almost beat the Broncos. No, you didn't. You know, like, I have this theory in sports, and it applies to boxing. but it applies to all sports. The great offense will always be overrated when it comes up against mediocrity because mediocrity has nothing to stave off the offense so it gets overwhelmed. Yeah. The great well-rounded fighter or team will always be underrated when it goes up against mediocrity because it will beat them but it'll beat them the way a chess master beats someone which is you tighten the vice, right?

2:13:42Max Kellerman:Like you accrue all these small advantages and in the end you win but it seemed competitive, or at least like the other team was hanging around. That was Pat's Giants last night. And that was...

2:13:51Bill Simmons:They could have put up 50 and they were like, yeah, let's save some for next few weeks.

2:13:56Max Kellerman:That was Pat's greatest show on turf, right? It's like the great, well-rounded team or individual athlete needs another great to go up against to really show you what they have. And what we've seen from the Broncos, I think the reason people are not maybe convinced about the Broncos is because they're that. because they are a team that will figure out a way to win. And until you see them under pressure in the playoffs against another great team, you're not going to believe it. But I'm not convinced that they won't do it.

2:14:27Bill Simmons:Yeah, so I always keep track of wins, losses, and then either or games. Yeah. I think they have five actual wins where they beat the other team. Buffalo has eight. To me, Buffalo is still the team, I think, for some reason has gotten written off a little bit, mainly because of that Thursday night Houston game. They don't have a lot of weapons. They don't have a lot of weapons, but they still have a great, great, great player. Decent infrastructure. They've been in a bunch of big games, so they're not going to be scared. I honestly think this is the hardest season to figure out in a long time. The Pats are finally favorites in the AFC.

2:15:01Bill Simmons:It took forever because it seems like they're probably going to get the one seed.

2:15:04Max Kellerman:But that's the only reason. The Texans, even the Buffalo, one of the reasons I'm so high on the Texans is because I saw them on a short week for Buffalo do what they did. They just crushed it.

2:15:15Bill Simmons:The problem is the Chiefs are probably not making the playoffs. I'm not ready to say that. They're two back from those wildcard teams. I will believe it. When they're dead and buried, I'll believe it. And they've lost to three of the teams that they could potentially be in a tie-in. So it's pretty grim.

2:15:30Max Kellerman:There was a middleweight champion in the early 1900s named Stanley Ketchel, one of the biggest punchers of all time. He was shot dead when he was 24 years old. And I'm forgetting who gave the quote, famous newspaper guy, I think, at the time. I'm forgetting who it was though at his funeral they said start counting to 10 to see if he gets up that's how I feel about Patrick Mahomes start counting to 10 and when you get to 10 out I'll believe he's out of it and not until then

2:15:58Bill Simmons:I'd be delighted to see them not make it I don't want to see them in the playoffs either of course you don't, you have ulterior motives though Texans is my number one, I don't want to see you in a playoff game

2:16:07Max Kellerman:what it comes down to at the core is you want Mahomes out of the conversation And if they can... Because of the Brady thing? Of course. Of course. If they can... Like, what Mahomes and the Chiefs have done, by the way, in a tougher division, Brady and what Brady and Belichick have done will never be done again. But, you know... I'm a results guy, Max.

2:16:25Bill Simmons:Two years ago, I was ready to entertain the Mahomes and the GOAT conversation, but Brady never went like 9-8. You're ready to entertain it, but that doesn't say what you're rooting for.

2:16:34Max Kellerman:Brady never went 9-8. Because a much easier division, though. And all you have to do is win the division, you get a bye in the first round, right? Like I'm not diminishing what they did. It'll never happen again. It's never going to happen again, especially since they did it in an era of great parody. In fact, it just doesn't seem like that. I don't think it can happen again. It'll never happen again. But the chiefs, Patrick Mahomes career, he's never not been to the AFC championship game. I know. Dude.

2:17:01Bill Simmons:It's a good goat resume thingy.

2:17:02Max Kellerman:I mean, ridiculous.

2:17:05Bill Simmons:Can we talk boxing before we go quickly? Just cause I barely have anyone to talk boxing to other than van and a couple other people.

2:17:11Max Kellerman:I love the fact that you, like, you're, to me, a good bellwether in terms of what the sports fan in America cares about. The fact that you know as much about boxing as you do always made me feel good as a boxing fan. Because it meant that, like, it's, at some level, it's still important.

2:17:28Bill Simmons:Well, I mean, 70s and 80s, it was as important as anything. Yeah, Mannix always calls me Big Fight Bill. Yeah. Because I show up for the big ones. I might not be watching that DAZN fight mid-July. Love Mannix, by the way. Yeah, Mannix is my guy. Mid-July, maybe I'm not showing out for the flyweight championship in Riyadh.

2:17:46Max Kellerman:Sure.

2:17:46Bill Simmons:But I watch all the big ones. Who's, as we head into 26, who is our number one draw right now? Who's the number one draw in boxing or who's the best fighter in the world? Give me draw first, then best fighter in the world.

2:18:02Max Kellerman:Draw? Did Crawford? Might still be Canelo Alvarez. You know, if you have the Mexican fan base in North America, you have a lot. Anthony Joshua in England will still bring him out for sure.

2:18:14Bill Simmons:I'm going to draw from public being excited about a fight. Because I think Canelo had the belt. The American public? Yeah, just everybody. I mean, did Crawford grab this with beating Canelo?

2:18:26Max Kellerman:Maybe. I think the hardcore fans certainly are interested in Bud Crawford. I think, I mean, my answer is Crawford. The guy who I'm most interested in watching is Crawford. because he is this generation's goat. People go, how could you be the greatest of all time in this generation? There are some guys that make a certain impression on contemporary audiences. Yeah. That you can't tell that audience anything their guy was the best, right? Crawford's one of those guys. He's like the boxing fans who watched Crawford in this era might pick him against anyone ever when all is said and done.

2:19:04Bill Simmons:Well, I remember, and you're obviously the hardest hardcore boxing guy, but I've always had boxing people in my life and there was somebody I was friends with in the 90s who would get so mad if anyone thought Roy Jones wasn't the best fighter like there's certain guys that resonate with the hardcore people where they're like they'll actually want to get in a fight if somebody's like yeah but what about it's like there's no what about

2:19:26Max Kellerman:it's Roy Jones Roy Jones at one point at one point Roy Jones if I would have told you remember what you were thinking when Mike Tyson knocked out Michael Snicks in 90 seconds I'm sure you watched that fight, right?

2:19:38Bill Simmons:Oh my God. My mom hadn't even brought down the, all the pizza and wings she made for me and my friends yet. And the fight was over.

2:19:44Max Kellerman:So what no one was saying at the time, but everyone was thinking was he might be the best fighter of all time, right? Like everyone would say Muhammad Ali, but it's almost out of respect. What people were feeling is that. And if I would have told you on that night, there's a junior middleweight amateur who's only a year younger than Mike, who will never come close to actually losing a fight, who will be the champion of middleweight, super middleweight, light heavyweight, jump up to heavyweight, beat a top five guy, and one day open as a two to one favorite to beat Mike Tyson. You would say that is not possible.

2:20:20Max Kellerman:If what you're saying is true, you're describing the greatest fighter ever. That was Roy Jones. At the moment he beat John Ruiz, had he never melted off 25 pounds of lean muscle to go back down to light heavy where he was never the same again. Well, and then he got cold cocked and that's, guys are never the same after they get cold

2:20:37Bill Simmons:cocked.

2:20:38Max Kellerman:But like if you, he didn't melt off 25 pounds of fat. Yeah. He was all muscle. Yeah. He melted off 25 pounds of lean muscle and was visibly not the same guy. It wasn't just the Tarver knockout. Yeah. He fought a guy, Glenn Cough Johnson. He got abused every round and knocked out and like abused it. Roy never lost a round. even if you think, well, someone could have caught him. He was up eight rounds to one, right? Like not that anyone did catch him. If he would have stayed at heavyweight and fought, let's say, Holyfield and Tyson. And at that point in their careers, let's say he beats those two guys and retires.

2:21:13Max Kellerman:Huh?

2:21:14Bill Simmons:He would have beaten Tyson. Tyson had his off the ring stuff was insurmountable at that point.

2:21:19Max Kellerman:And if he did that, even forget Holyfield, just Tyson and retires, he would be considered hands down the greatest of all time. But that's not the way it happened.

2:21:26Bill Simmons:Well, you're describing my Billy Corgan theory. If Billy Corgan, they put out the Melancholy double album, and then he's just abducted by an alien and is never seen again. We're talking about him reverentially. It's one of the five most important musicians we've had. And Roy Jones, if he just, after the Ruiz fight, just is in Roswell and gets zapped up and he's just gone and we don't know what happened. It's him and Ray Robinson is what people would be talking about.

2:21:51Max Kellerman:But Crawford is like, you know, there was Floyd Mayweather before Crawford. There'll be another guy after Crawford. Once upon a time, there was Ray Robinson. And everyone who lived through those eras will say, no, that guy. Crawford is this eras, that guy. You're not gonna, you know, especially if he wins one or two more big fights and retires, he's in the conversation.

2:22:10Bill Simmons:It goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning about the moments that could shift you one way or the other. Like if Hagler just knocks out Leonard in 87 and retires, his career is remembered I think completely differently instead it's like people almost bring up the Hearns fight and that fight and then him just disappearing and moving to Italy he was so mad he lost the Leonard decision and it just completely changed how the career is discussed now 40 years later you want me to do two minutes

2:22:40Max Kellerman:on Hagler right now?

2:22:41Bill Simmons:I mean I could do two hours on him but

2:22:44Max Kellerman:so Hagler is a hard-bitten learning his craft by paying his dues guy. And Sugar Ray Leonard is the uber-talented wunderkind who wins the Olympic gold medal.

2:22:57Bill Simmons:The appointed Ali successor.

2:22:58Max Kellerman:By Howard Cosell. Has seven-up ads. He turns pro. He makes$50 ,000 in his pro debut. Hagler's on the undercard. He makes whatever he makes. One-twentieth of that, whatever it is. And nobody would fight him for three, four years. No one would fight Hagler. He had to go into the middleweight lion's den of Philadelphia. All the black middleweights who were being avoided, the Black Murderers row, Benny Briscoe, Bobby Boogaloo, Watts, and Eugene Cyclone Hart, and all these guys, and he lost to them, and then he rematched them and beat them, and then he rubber matched some of them and knocked them out, and when he emerged from that era, he was a killer, right?

2:23:34Max Kellerman:But he was, they fought for their first world titles on the same card, Leonard and Hagler. Got robbed by Vito. Leonard got a million dollars to beat a great Wilfred Benitez by 30 seconds left in the fight, stops him in a close, tough fight. Hagler beats Antifermo, gets a draw. Leonard gets the title. Hagler makes 40 grand. Leonard makes a million. So this keeps going on. Finally, when he gets to fight Sugar Ray Leonard after Leonard made him fall, he was going to fight him.

2:24:01Bill Simmons:Well, you left out that he beats Minter for the title and it's basically a riot and they're throwing bottles.

2:24:05Max Kellerman:I mean, I'm just editing details. Nothing went right until the Hearns fight. Nothing went right. And even Leonard has a press conference in the ring, Hagler shows up ringside because Hagler thinks he's going to announce he's coming back because he had the detached retina, Leonard, so he retired. He's going to announce he's coming back to fight me and instead, Leonard announces his retirement. Invites him. Invites him and announces.

2:24:27Bill Simmons:I actually, I had Ray on my podcast when I was at ESPN and I think I asked him about that. So it was kind of like fucked up psychological warfare. He invites him to the thing, makes it seem like he's going to announce a rematch. And then tells him no payday. I'm sorry, it'll never happen.

2:24:41Max Kellerman:And Hagler's like, what? Why am I here? Sugar Ray Leonard had made, what is it,$11 million for fighting Roberto Duran,$13 million for fighting Tommy Hearns. Back when, the highest paid team athlete in sports was Dave Winfield,$2 million a year. Leonard's making five and six times as much in a night. Bird's making$700K. And Leonard's making$13 million. So Hagler sees this, sees it, and finally Leonard, when he gives him the shot, right? Hagler's the champ, but Leonard's giving him the payday. he says all right i want a 12 round fight instead of a 15 round fight and i want whatever it was thumbless gloves or you know because of the retina but the main thing was the 12 instead of 15 rounds because that was in an era where it could have been either one and haggler agreed to it because leonard said instead of us each taking 14 million you take 15 i'll take 13 he knew how much that would mean to haggler he purchased those three rounds where haggler won the fight i mean leonard won the first four rounds.

2:25:39Max Kellerman:Everyone agrees. So now Hagler has the next eight and all Leonard has to do is win two and get a draw. Hagler didn't win seven of the next eight. He won most of them, but not seven of them. And so he ran out of rounds in the end.

2:25:50Bill Simmons:I think I've argued about this fight with more people over my life than any other sporting event.

2:25:55Max Kellerman:Hagler Leonard. Yeah,

2:25:57Bill Simmons:because I think Leonard won and I thought Hagler was off his game the whole thing. He was off balance. I just don't think he fought a good fight.

2:26:04Max Kellerman:More psychological warfare. Leonard, the pretty boy, like Hagler, destruct and destroy for Tommy Hearns. He's going to go right through him. Against Leonard, he wanted to show he could outbox him. He even talked about that a little as the fight approached. So instead of coming out southpaw and Leonard had a hard time he comes out orthodox, gives away four rounds. Turns southpaw in the fifth, now it's a different fight. But Leonard wins a couple of those rounds late and gets a decision. I talked to Hagler about that.

2:26:28Bill Simmons:By the way, Duran did that to Leonard in the first fight. In the Montreal fight because he basically just challenged this manhood for four straight months. Then Leonard's like, I'm going to fight this guy.

2:26:39Max Kellerman:That was what Clubber Lang was based on in Rocky III, insulting the wife. That was all based on Duran. But Duran, I always thought, was the reason Leonard came out and fought Hagler. Because after Duran fought Hagler and lost to him close, he told Sugar Ray after the fight, you get him. You'll beat him. And I think that's why Leonard took the fight.

2:26:57Bill Simmons:Well, Leonard always said he never was going to fight Hagler until he saw the Mugabe fight and saw how much punishment. And that fight's incredible. If I was going to do a starter kit for boxing fans to learn about the 70s and 80s, Hagler Mugabe would be on there. Great fight. It's so good. I mean, the number one would be Foreman Lyle. I'm not going to tell you who wins. Just watch us.

2:27:20Max Kellerman:I got one better for you than either one of those. Corrales Castillo. Oh, yeah. That's a great one. Corrales Castillo won and Pryor Arguello won.

2:27:29Bill Simmons:Pryor Arguello won's incredible. It's also a good... That's a good legendary Knights. I like the fact that you have

2:27:36Max Kellerman:Leonard Hearns won here. It's my favorite fight. It is. It's mine too. And I think that was actually all things considered the highest level of boxing we've ever seen. Like two impossibly great fighters, no excuses, at their very best in a 15-round fight. Tommy Hearns, as close to unbeatable a fighter as you could possibly imagine. Sugar Ray Leonard somehow Al figured out a way to get it done in a fight he was losing. Well, in the fight, switch gears five times. Exactly. Yeah.

2:28:08Bill Simmons:I did that close circuit in the Boston Garden with my dad. And most of the people there rooted for Hearns. And I was fucking outraged. I was so mad because Ray was like my guy.

2:28:19Max Kellerman:I remember before that fight, reading in a magazine, Emmanuel Stewart, who's Tommy Hearns' trainer at the time, talking about how Dundee was saying, Angela Dundee, Leonard's trainer, saying, this is how why leonard's gonna win and emmanuel saying this is why tommy hearns is gonna win i was a big leonard fan as a kid too and uh when i was done reading what emmanuel said i was so scared he said it's gonna feel like sugar ray leonard is in a tank and it's just filling up with water and i thought to myself that's exactly what this is like i still can't believe he won

2:28:52Bill Simmons:i it's unbelievable i like kearns we talked before we started taping i was saying how Hearns was like the, I think I might've written this somewhere at some point, but he was the other team in the best sports movies. It's great. And he just like, you kind of need it. He just, there was, he was a freak. You were talking about Mahomes before about, I've never seen this before. Like we've never seen Tommy before. The six foot 147 guy who hit like a fucking tractor.

2:29:19Max Kellerman:Who could outbox you because he had a 78 inch reach and could box and could jab. And as an amateur, wasn't a puncher.

2:29:26Bill Simmons:He was a boxer. Well, that was the frustrating thing about the Leonard fight. It felt like he figured that out over the second part of the fight. Like, oh, I'll just box Ray. Leonard hit him in the body with that left hook.

2:29:35Max Kellerman:Yeah. It's like fifth round.

2:29:37Bill Simmons:Then he finally, Leonard finally got him.

2:29:39Max Kellerman:But yeah, it's the rollercoaster of that fight. I'm happy for that Tommy now, in retrospect at the time, it was like, well, he lost to Leonard, then he lost to Hagler. He's not, but I think as time has passed, his position all time, like he's seen as other than like Sugar Ray Robinson Sugar Ray Leonard he's the greatest welterweight ever probably

2:29:59Bill Simmons:you know what's a great fight that is a great fight for a different reason than people think it's a great fight is Tyson Douglas it's actually like a great fight forget about that it's the biggest upset of all time and all that stuff and just how amazing that was to watch Tyson Lewis the fact that Tyson knocked him down Douglas on that night is about as much as you would want from a heavyweight total package right left left left he's got size quick rights

2:30:24Max Kellerman:He'd throw uppercuts. 100%. And he showed a lot of heart getting off the canvas and finishing the job. It should have been done. But he was always a talented guy. He just was never really motivated properly.

2:30:33Bill Simmons:Well, we could talk boxing forever. So your podcast with Rich is starting next week. You tell me. It's starting next week. Great. We're starting next week. I know. It's happening. It's happening, yes. We're going to launch the feed later this week so people can subscribe. And then you and Rich, a guy you've known for a long, long time, and you told me once upon a time maybe three months ago. Like, I was trying to get you to do something for a while with us. And you're like, well, I'm down the road with this other thing. And it turns out it's Rich. And I'm like, Rich is, how is this going to work?

2:31:05Bill Simmons:And then we all went to lunch and I got it within 10 minutes.

2:31:08Max Kellerman:I knew that the thing about knowing you for a while and knowing Rich for a while is that if there was any issue, it was easily fixable. It was like, that's something that gets hashed out quickly. I mean, that part,

2:31:20Bill Simmons:I was more concerned, like, how is Rich going to be a host on a podcast. Like this guy is like one of the biggest power brokers in the NBA. Is he going to be forthcoming? But it's like the bottom line is he's a huge sports fan. He's like a one of us. He's going to have takes on everything. And by the way,

2:31:38Max Kellerman:you guys have the chemistry is brutal with his own clients. Like in the sense that he will tell you, rich will tell you what he thinks. And, and he manages to do this thing. Even when he was like a source for me, right. When I was, when I was on ESPN and he was an agent, he manages to do this thing where you're he's never positioning you in a way that's going to burn you like if rich gave me information yeah i never had to worry about i'm going to get burnt by this because he's giving me this information to position me for his client right now sometimes it was beneficial for his client but it was the truth yeah right if rich tells the celtics you could trade for ad he's not going to resign here he's not telling them that because it's not true.

2:32:18Max Kellerman:Tell him that because it's true. That's not the plan. And so he manages to be extremely straightforward and honest, even when the honesty is highly critical, even of people he works for and with. And also maintain good relationships because people know it's coming from the right place. So we're going to go

2:32:38Bill Simmons:it's going to be three times a week in the middle podcast of the week. Probably a guest. Yeah. At least for part of it. We're going to try to get some some, I mean, turns out Rich has a pretty decent Rolodex of possible guests, but there's a kind of bringing different people in to hang with you guys that I think is going to be a piece of this.

2:32:59Max Kellerman:It's funny. One of the reasons that we're with you is because I have done lots of stuff that has been repurposed as podcasts, right? Yeah. Marcellus and I, we did a radio show in LA that did great as a podcast nationally. We were beating most of the national podcasts on ESPN is an LA podcast. And we're by far like the biggest local podcast. And I've done TV shows that have been repurposed. I've never done a straight podcast. So like you're the guy for that, like 100%. Oh, thank you. But when even things like, okay, we should do a guest on Wednesday. When we first started talking about that, it didn't fully occur to me when you have a guest on a podcast, that's the show that day.

2:33:43Max Kellerman:Well, it could be most of it. You can still do like - But it's not like a segment. It's not like the guy's going to be on there for five minutes. Right. It's not PTI a good five minutes. True. And even something like that, when you haven't been through it, I wasn't thinking that way. I was like, yeah, we could just do a guest on this day, on this day. No, no, no. Actually, when you have a guest come in and sit for your podcast, that's kind of the show that day.

2:34:01Bill Simmons:Well, it's good. So we're going to it's going to be a video pod and it'll be part of the Netflix thing we're doing. And I have high hopes for this one. I think it's gonna be good. I'm glad you're talking sports again. It's great to have you back. I missed hearing your voice on things.

2:34:13Max Kellerman:Thank you. Thanks. that's that's really you don't know how people feel about that if you're gone the world goes on and and it was nice to hear like around the industry and from sports fans that that uh they were still thinking about me to the extent that they think about you know anyone and you know talking about this sports the only person who's bummed out is how steinbrenner he's gonna be taking some hits i don't think he's i'm not as down on him as a lot of people he's just not rich enough yeah he's only worth like two billion it's a good what if right like if the if the guy who

2:34:44Bill Simmons:was supposed to run the Yankees doesn't end up falling apart with the Steinbrenner's daughter.

2:34:49Max Kellerman:Yeah.

2:34:50Bill Simmons:That guy, what was that guy's name? Whatever that guy's name was. He was supposed to run the Yankees and he actually would have been good at it. And then Hal didn't really want to run them and kind of begrudgingly did it. And Hank wasn't working out.

2:35:00Max Kellerman:Yeah. Hank wasn't happening. But my suggestion would be sell the team.

2:35:05Bill Simmons:Or how about sell it, sell 30 % of it and bank some of the money so you don't have to be cheap anymore. Right. What's 30 % of the Yankees? I don't know. It's probably like$11 billion,$10 billion.

2:35:17Max Kellerman:30 % is$10 billion, you think? Oh, I'm sorry. See, I don't need Hal Steinbrenner to be worth$5 billion. I need the next owner of the Yankees worth$20 billion.

2:35:26Bill Simmons:Well, maybe you do like what the Lakers did, where you sell a piece, and then five years later, that person... Yes, something like that. That's what you do. All right, Max, good to see you. I look forward to your podcast. Thanks. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks so much to Max. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, new rewatchables, Rocky II. It is up. don't forget about the Jeff Buckley documentary we have as part of our Music Box series on HBO that's going to be Thursday night I'm going to be back with this podcast on Thursday putting up late because I think this Lions-Cowboys game is a big one so House and I might do our football side before or after that Lions-Cowboys game and then we have a big guest I'm keeping my fingers crossed but it seems like John Cena is going to be on so that's going to be Thursday's pod I will see you then I want to see them.

2:36:15Bill Simmons:I want to waste your time. Say I don't have feelings with them.

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