Joker’s Out, and Boston Might Be Next. Plus, an MLB Cocktail Party and 'Survivor 50' With Rob Mahoney, Billy Gil, and Jason Concepcion.

21:26It wasn't enough to beat the Wolves without Anthony Edwards.

21:29Bill Simmons:Yeah, and you guys get a little older too and you can start to feel it in a series, right? Minnesota still with the younger legs. And if you were talking about which team's upside would you just rather want for the next couple of years, as great as Joker, as you would take Minnesota at this point, especially if they can, you know, they have the right to, you know, pay Dusumu. I don't know what the rules are with how much they can give him. Will that just immediately send them over the tax? Will they have to cut some stuff? But I assume they're going to make a big effort to keep him. And if they can keep him and McDaniels and then Gobert and Randall on smaller contracts with Ant as the franchise guy, that might be sustainable.

22:08Bill Simmons:I mean, it's already... it's pretty good. It's already been among the most bankable things in the West. You talked about looking back at the Rudy Gobert trade. If you want to think about this as the Rudy Gobert era of the Minnesota Timberwolves, led by Anthony Edwards, of course, but since they traded for Gobert, they lost to the Nuggets in the first round. Happens to play a really good team. Back-to-back Western Conference finals, and now you just beat the Nuggets with Nikola Jokic and what was supposed to be a contender packing right in front of everybody. So who are you betting on to be a more consistent Western Conference contender than this outside of that Thunder Spurs range?

22:48Like they're right here and they consistently just turn up and beat people and push great teams to their limits. Just kind of proving to be who the Wolves are. And a team

22:57Bill Simmons:that, as we've talked about for years and years, was being built to beat Denver specifically. A little like the Knicks with the Celtics, which, barring the want to get into that? Yeah, we should get into that. Wow. As if it wasn't bad enough that the Celtics stunk, I can feel it coming from game five. I really was worried after game five when we talked about it in the pot. I thought there were some, it was not your typical loss at home where you just, oh, we just didn't make our threes. It's fine. It happens. This was like their offense fell apart in the second half and Philly had a lot of confidence and Paul George was outplaying Jalen Brown, which he did again tonight.

23:37Bill Simmons:So I was concerned about today. Tatum left the game and was having issues with his good leg. And they were like, is it a cramp? Is there a strain? What is it? He was asked after the game if he's fine. And he said, yes, I flagged it immediately. And his lift was gone from the moment it happened. And he took a few shots. I'm sure that you could find the clips on social, but he took a few shots. at least three and was in there and he just was at a different speed from the moment something was wrong and then the game got out of hand so they smartly pulled him um if if he even has a slight strange i'm sitting him in game seven that that's a wrap for me you cannot fuck with the tatum part of the season and that to me is if he's even 96 i'm out you're sitting and we'll try to win without you we did it all year and maybe we'll have you for round two what would you do I would not play him, but I just want to acknowledge I really appreciate what you did here, which is the Celtics got this game handed to them and how quickly you pivoted the narrative to like, oh my god, Jason Tatum's leg.

24:41What are we to do?

24:43Bill Simmons:But this was, they got their asses kicked. They did. They were underdogs. I want to talk about how good they were, but coming out of that, it's like, oh my god, Tatum's hurt again? Yeah. And it's the other calf? Like, this loss was bad enough. Now I'm on Twitter, Googling strain calf cramp, texting people like this was just, this game was a three hour nightmare. It was a nightmare for the Celtics. I mean, Tatum did look different in the first half. I thought he was more successful. Certainly had some like really smooth drives, some really good pull-up jumpers. Was not quite the same guy. But even then, I mean, Philly's perimeter defense and their wings in this series have just been sensational.

25:23Like Kelly Oubre on like guarding Jalen Brown mostly, but switching over Paul George, Jesus Christ, like playoff P in his fullest effect, maybe ever. The combination of those guys, plus just all the interchangeable parts where, you know, it's been so telling that every time a Tatum or a Brown wants to get ahead of steam in transition, wants to like take advantage of those moments where these smothering wings might not be on them. Quinton Grimes just slides over. Vijay Edgecombe just slides over. Justin Anderson just slides over. They just have so many of these guys, like just an endless pit of good wings who they can plug and play.

25:55And it's proven really difficult for Boston to do basically anything with.

25:59Bill Simmons:The worst part of everything you said is that Paul George outplayed both guys in this game. Yes, straight up. And Paul George has been really good this whole series. We've talked about it every part I've done. I thought this was the best game he's played tonight. He was 2021 Paul George offensively a few times. Defensively, I thought he... I think they've just throttled Brown. I mean, Brown was terrible tonight. And I didn't think he was very good in Game 5 either. The stats were a little deceiving. I thought even the shots he made weren't great shots. Got yet another offensive foul. But I thought, you know, this was a guy that during the season was scoring on everybody and getting the shots he wanted on every good defender in the league from Lou Dort on down.

26:41Bill Simmons:And in this series, could not seem to get the shot he wants against any perimeter guy on Philadelphia. And they seem really confident on it. And I tweeted something at halftime about, I just couldn't believe how bad the Celtics were in that first half where it was all the things you're worried about if you're a Celtic fan going in where it's like Derek White looks a little rickety. Yep. We're going too slow. We're walking it up. Hate that. Uh, Missoula has now quit on the bench. I think in the first half Pritchard was the only guy that had any bench points. None of the other, this whole bench mob, these guys that would swing these games just punted on that playing Tatum and Brown big minutes.

27:20Bill Simmons:Well, what happens? Tatum may have gotten hurt in the third quarter. He's playing 42 and 40-minute games this year. I think he was averaging 40 minutes a game or 38 a game or something like that. What about Namesh Kata may not have control of his limbs? I had dumb Kata fouls written down. Is Vooch terrible? I think he's been lurking as a question with Celtic fans. And he's basically been unplayable. And then on top of it, like this bad version of Jalen Brown that just hasn't been there all season all of a sudden shows up. So it was another legitimate win. Here's a stat for you, Rob. Please. Lowest scoring quarters the Celtics have had all season.

28:00Bill Simmons:Hmm. 14 in the second quarter against New York on October 24th. 13 in the third quarter against Milwaukee on December 11th. 11 in the fourth quarter of game five and 14 in the third quarter today. Yikes. Two of the worst quarters they've had, two of the four worst quarters they've had all season happen in the last two games. And they had a stretch of the second half of game five into the entire first half of game six where they just got their ass kicked for a full game leading into the third quarter. So, you know, I know game seven's at home, but I don't like the way they're playing. I think Philly has a ton of confidence.

28:41Bill Simmons:Embiid's a variable. I didn't think he was nearly as effective in this game as he was in the last game. And I thought, actually, if he had shot better, they could have won that game by 30. But he's still impactful. You're still thinking about him. And I guess, would you say, the gamble of playing him game four and basically plunking on that game because they couldn't figure out how to incorporate him, I guess, has paid off, right? Well, I mean, they had to ease into it, clearly, and figure out how to manage their offense, firing on all cylinders at once with Embiid involved. I think, I mean, introducing him in mid-series has given the whole dynamic a really interesting jolt.

29:19Because, right, usually when you're a favored team, by the end of it, I mean, we're going to talk about what happened with the Knicks and the Hawks, for example, you see the superior team kind of like tightening its grip overall. They learn which players they need to play, they learn which buttons they need to push, and by the end, they feel like they're in control. But throwing it in B changed everything about how the series is played, who is guarded, how the Celtics are aligned. And you could see it in this game where even though he isn't scoring well, He's getting guys in foul trouble. He's baiting the Celtics into overreaction with double teams.

29:49He gives the Sixers a good way to steady their offense where they don't have to just go through Maxie so much or go through Paul George so much. They can actually kind of counterbalance this stuff. And I also think he was a huge help keeping the Celtics off the offensive glass where through three quarters, they basically have two or three offensive rebounds. And Boston is not a team that can really survive that way.

30:10Bill Simmons:Yeah. And it's funny because I always felt like it was a weakness with Embiid, especially as he got older, is you could crash the boards on him and get all this second chance stuff. They had... I think they had one offensive rebound. Was it the entire game or just in the first half? They picked them up in garbage time. They picked them up in garbage time. Yeah, they're down nine and a half time. One offensive rebound. Yikes. All right, the Philly piece of this. Maxie's been the best player in the series. And I remember Zach and I, in a most intriguing players in the playoffs pod that we did that seemingly happened about 20 years ago because we've had so many playoff games.

30:50Bill Simmons:And Maxie was the one I picked for like the leap. Like, could this happen? The guy's relentless. He feels like he's faster than anybody in the Celtics. Even when you look up, he has four points, all of a sudden he'll have 10 points in like four minutes. Clearly seems like the leader of the team. He's been great in the home games. And if they win a game seven in Boston, which is conceivable with the way the Celtics are playing, I think it starts there. I think that, to me, it's a Maxie Paul George and then whatever you get from Embiid is a bonus. Yeah, I mean, again, I really don't think we can say enough great things about Paul George, but with Maxie, the ease with which he toggles between attacking on ball like really, really aggressively and also just spacing out to let other people shine.

31:42It's a really unique combination. Like that kind of speed and that kind of shooting just don't come together in the same package very often. And he doesn't even necessarily need to be Steph Curry flying around the floor, like doing all this off-ball movement. Just his gravity on the weak side is a really, really powerful thing. Especially because if you do kick to him, I don't care how well you contest or close out, like he's going to blow by you on the counter drive. And so he just gives the Sixers so many options and he feels more and more powerful as all these other guys are being established, right?

32:12The better Paul George plays, the more dangerous Maxie becomes. The more Embiid is a real threat, then oh my God, what are we supposed to do with Tyrese's result? So it's, they've proven to be like a really formidable combination.

32:22Bill Simmons:And the other thing to just kind of keep doing what you're doing when you introduce this crazy Embiid variable and the usage rate for him and it hasn't affected his stuff at all. Yeah, I had him my last Ringer 100 that we handed in. I had him 16th. I think it's really tough to keep him out of the top 10 best players in the league at this point. Like, I don't, you know, I don't know when we turn on our next list, but it just, if you're watching all these guys against each other, we're missing a couple guys that are in the playoffs. Like Kawhi and people like that. But it's just hard for me to believe Maxie's not in the top 10 now.

32:57Well, even this season, I mean, he was an all-NBA second team guy. Like, rock solid all year long for all of the weird lulls that the Sixers had in their seasons with injuries and suspensions and whatnot. He was the constant piece of it. And, I mean, I think his buoyancy, too, as a personality is a really important part of this. Like, if you're going to have that kind of year, you do need a guy who can just help people, like, help keep people's spirits up. And Joel Embiid is not necessarily that. Paul George is not necessarily that. Yeah. I think he and Vijay just gave this team an energy and a shot in the arm at some of the precise moments over the course of the year where they really needed it.

33:32And certainly in these playoffs, the more I think about this series, the more I think about game two. That's the one that Boston, everyone with that team should have in their nightmares if they do end up losing this series because they lost it and they lost it because they didn't take the Sixers seriously enough. They just didn't play their game and work hard enough. That was an effort loss. And if they lose this series, because they let up one too many effort losses early. That's the kind of thing that sticks with you.

33:59Bill Simmons:Lazy, a lot of threes. It was all the same shit that sunk them last year. Today, actually, today was a little more concerning because I thought they actually played hard. And I thought they just played harder and wanted it more. The Kata piece of it, they're relying on these guys that made sense in the regular season. Now you're throwing Kata against Joel Embiid and it just seems like he doesn't have control of his limbs half the time um i feel like we zoomed past the most important part which is like on a scale of one to life alert like how are you doing what is your current mental state not great i was i'm telling you i was after game five i was and then the next day and talking to people and texting with my uh super nervous dad we just were really concerned after that game because it felt like the team had lost its identity like we were talking about minnesota's identity before of they just kept it, even with these injuries.

34:55Bill Simmons:And they just, we're going to ball pressure and we're going to attack and we're going to have a chip on our shoulder. Boston, a big part of their identity was this bench. Yeah. And the bench mob coming in and the bench shifting games and being able, you know, their whole season, it's Jalen and White and Pritchard are the three reliable scorers. Very rarely were all three of them good in the same game. And sometimes only one of them was good in the game. But the bench was able to switch stuff. and it was interesting in the second half when they kind of punted and he finally played Garza, Shireman, Pritchard, Harper and Walsh.

35:28Bill Simmons:A lineup that I would have played every game. Guys that have played together for stretches over and over again. You can't play those guys together in actual playoff minutes. I would have played them. You can't do it. Here's what you can't do. Play Jason Tatum 42 minutes in a playoff game. That's a problem too. Coming off of torn Achilles for 40. like at some point obviously that wouldn't be the five but that what you have where you either put brown in there or one of them or i don't know i i honestly would have thrown that out and just said muck the game up for four minutes versus some of the stuff we were watching um that lineup actually almost it felt like they were going to bring them back they were down 12 i was like oh my god they're gonna do it but ron harper somebody that i actually think you could make a case should have played a little.

36:14Bill Simmons:Walsh definitely should be playing more. Like no question. I think he's the one guy that's given Maxie real trouble. And then Shireman, he just punted on in the playoffs and I don't understand it. I said this, every pot I've done, I don't understand. He was coming on as like the super sub for them and they just basically punted on his minutes and I don't really get it. The stuff Maz has done in this series, I don't really understand. They're not playing through the guards enough. They stopped doing the little picks at the top for the guards And it's just all this face-up one-on-one stuff or the two forwards.

36:46Bill Simmons:It's like watching battering Rams. It's a really ugly offense. And this wasn't how they played this season, Rob. I think it's some of the stuff that's baked into just like the construction of the team in its current form. And then some of it being Tatum and Brown's worst habits coming home to Roost, all swirling together in the worst possible way. Against the defense, we should add, again, it's just like equipped to switch a lot of these actions. Ready for everything. If you did want to run, you know, like a little bit more of a guard heavy offense, a little bit more ball screen oriented. Like it's not like the Sixers couldn't handle that for the most part.

37:17I think they're pretty, they're pretty well suited for it.

37:20Bill Simmons:And Maxey's defense, I think is Matt. We've seen Maxey guard bigger guys and fight people, you know, the trade deadline, they traded Simons for Vucevic and Simons was really important for this team as this super sub off the bench. He didn't always have it, but he would sometimes, but he was a good monkey wrench guy, like a better version of what Bones Island has been doing on Minnesota. And there were quarters that he would swing. And they lost that. And they feel like they're a guard short. And the reasoning was, well, we think Vooch, we have more center depth. Obviously, there was tack stuff.

37:52Bill Simmons:But really, it was a money trade. And they were keeping their fingers crossed that Vooch still had any gas in the tank. And he just doesn't. Doesn't have it. And there has been no sign from the moment they got him that he can help them. And I thought he was unplayable tonight. And I don't even know if we're going to see him that much in Game 7. So you go from Simons, who's this wild card. Oh, White doesn't have it. Oh, this guy's sitting threes to Vucu. It's just a groaner. I don't think any of his shots are going in. I mean, that's another benefit for Philly in terms of just having Embiid on the floor in this series is it just changes the way that Boston has to think about its rotations.

38:29And you feel, if you're Joe Mazzula, feel compelled to put Vucu out there. Just like we have to have a size appropriate body to hurl in front of Joel Embiid. because, I mean, just who knows what would happen to Luka Garza if he had to do that for 30 minutes.

38:42Bill Simmons:Right. Versus if it's just Andre Drummond and a Dembona out there, like you can get away with all sorts of other lineups. You can play small. You can play different. You can play variations of what already works for them and you don't feel so reliant on Vooches. I thought Philly should have and could have won game three and Boston had to make a couple really big shots to stave them off and there was some veteran playoff experience. But Philly has figured out this series from game two on what to do. And you have the Celtics now. It's a game seven. This will be the ninth Sixers Celtics game seven, Rob.

39:18Bill Simmons:Is that true? Yeah. Celtics won in 59, 65, and 68. Sixers won in Philly in 77. Tough loss for young Bill Simmons. 83 to 77. uh 1981 Celtics come back from 3-1 I was there 1982 Celtics come back from 3-1 again and the Sixers win game seven I was also there 2012 was that weird Derek Rose year when he got hurt yep and we ended up with Philly and Boston in the uh I think it was round two and uh that was Rajon Rondo's greatest shooting game ever Celtics win that and then uh 2023 when the Celts were down 3-2. They win in Philly in game six. Tatum is a big game. Then they kill them Philly in game seven.

40:05Bill Simmons:So this is our ninth one. And if I'm Philly, I feel like I can win the game. Like 100%. They definitely should feel that way. Yeah. Harder on the road. I mean, it's still going to be a task, but I think you're spot on that they have really seized onto a couple of really key strategic things in the series. Plus, we'll see whatever becomes of Jason Tatum's leg and how ready he is to go and be the best version of himself. But Philly has everything they need to win. Like, clearly, they can really put the screws to the Celtics. Whether they can do it again game over game, like, look, this stuff is hard, but an incredible showing by them just to put themselves in this position to begin with.

40:43Bill Simmons:What do you think the line is, just out of curiosity? I would bet it's Celtics, but fairly slim, maybe like three and a half, four and a half points. Yeah, it's seven and a half. Seven and a half. Incredibly too high. I would make this a four-point game because, you know, we've seen this pretty huge sample size. There was the outlier Pritchard game in game four, plus Embiid coming back into that. But I thought the one move the Celtics had, and I would have been interested to see if they did in the second half today, but then Tatum got hurt, was what about Tatum at the five? Shooters everywhere.

41:17Bill Simmons:What's making Embiid work? It's not like the centers are playing well to begin with. Let's just see what this looks like. But we never got to see it. And if Tatum's healthy, I wonder if we'll see that. But are you just better off playing him at the five than Vucevic for those minutes and playing with guards and shooters and that's it? I think it would have been worth a look, especially because Embiid is not super mobile right now. Not to the extent that he has been over the last couple of years when he's played, but you can drive around him defensively. You can roll around him defensively. And so, yeah, I would have liked to see that version of the Celtics give it a go, but I don't think it's very realistic to ask of Tatum at this point.

41:54Bill Simmons:Do you realize that the Celtics blow game seven at home? This will be 2023 against Miami. Pretty big favorites in that series. 25 last year against the Knicks. Pretty big favorites in that series. And then this series, they were favorites all the time. I think they were like minus 1 ,800 after game four. Minus 2 ,200. So this would be a title and three just dramatic, devastating collapses in the last four years of the Joe Bazzullo era. And I don't know what to make of it. Well, and it will have officially transcended like whatever Miami complex exists, right? Like this is no longer a heat Celtics thing.

42:33This is just a Celtics thing. I fear for you. I fear for you and everyone in your circle, Bill. That does not seem like a good thing to have to live with if it does come to that.

42:43Bill Simmons:Let me add this component, Rob. You have children. I do not have children. You don't have a child yet? No. All right. I have a 21-year-old child on Saturday. Okay. My daughter turns 21 years old. Yep. On May 2nd.

43:01Bill Simmons:I'm not doing a podcast on May 2nd after that game win or lose. So I'm just saying that now. I'm not going to have a podcast until Sunday. I can't decide if my daughter turning 21 that day and we're going to be with her. Is a good sign or a bad sign for the Celtics? She loves the Celtics, by the way. I feel like it's a good sign, but I don't know. I'm going to say it's an irrelevant sign and you'll talk yourself into some divine meaning in either of it. Nothing's irrelevant, Rob. Nothing's irrelevant. Well, this is a good thread, though. Do you have any particular Game 7 superstitions? Do you approach a game like this any differently than any other Celtics playoff game?

43:38Bill Simmons:Yes. I asked my mom, who's 100 % Italian, will make a little shrine thing for good luck. and I only ask her for specific kind of sports moments. What is in the shrine? She's got a whole weird Italian thing. So I'm going to have to shrine it up. I mean, if Tatum doesn't play, this might kind of solve itself unless we get this crazy Baylor-Shireman game or something. I really am imagining the closet shrine with the burning candles, the Baylor-Shireman portrait in the middle. I think you really got to go all out for an occasion like this. Well, I also have the karma piece of it. I can't be like, oh, that dinner we were going to have for your birthday.

44:22Bill Simmons:I can't. We got to just stay in and watch the game. I'm going to have to do whatever she wants, obey all father-daughter rules, and let her control the process in a way that she feels good about because that will help the Celtics. I'm going to do my part. Karma-wise, I'm doing my part. I don't want to blame myself years later. At first, I thought you were just being a good dad. but no, it's just so you can get the karma so the Celtics will win. Yeah, I want her to be happy on her birthday. It can be both. This is just a nightmare. First of all, if they lose to Philly, that's three home losses in a seven-game series to a team that was a play-in team.

45:01Bill Simmons:And then we're in a situation, Zach Lowe asked us on his podcast, who's going to win the East? The Orlando Magic. Is that the answer? I don't know. Well, actually, I think we have our clearest indication yet of the answer, and it's in the last game that we haven't discussed tonight. Yeah, the Knicks turned it on. I thought they solved Atlanta in Game 5. I thought that was an easy bet tonight. They were like minus 2.5. I didn't think they would be up by 50 points in the first half. No. But they're running on all cylinders, and it feels like they're the only team that would actually have a chance to land one or two punches on the Spurs or Thunder.

45:41Bill Simmons:I don't know if they would beat either team, but they could at least get some jabs in and maybe a couple of right crosses. Well, this high gear that they showed is just better than anything we've seen in the entire Eastern Conference, maybe all year. Like maybe even above and beyond what the Pistons were in the regular season or the shiniest version of the Celtics. Like this was an incredibly impressive win, a historic win in a bunch of different ways. I didn't know you could show this kind of violence on TV anymore. Like just getting this kind of lead and holding it. And every time I seem to check back on the game, it was just getting worse and worse and worse for Atlanta.

46:13It's hard to not be blown away by how good the Knicks can be when they have it all together. And after this, I think they've certainly deserved the benefit of the doubt as far as when they're able to do that.

46:23Bill Simmons:Is it possible the regular season just doesn't matter? You can't say that. And that we just, because we get podcast content out of it for six and a half months, we're convinced these little signs and this means this and that means that. The one thing that I think mattered all season was San Antonio rising to the occasion against Oklahoma City. That felt like, okay, this is significant. We didn't think these guys were real yet. They are real now, and they feel like they can beat this team, and this is a thing now that's happening. Other than that, are we just on a rollercoaster ride with the up and down?

46:58Bill Simmons:Look at Orlando and Minnesota, the two most frustrating teams in each conference, are now teams you could conceivably see just, I don't know how far either of them are going to go, but I can see them keep going. And then you look at a team like the Knicks that over and over again, we've wondered, what's wrong with this team? Do they like each other? Oh my God, they're going to blow it up after they get bounced. And now they look great. So can you just turn it on in basketball now, like out of nowhere for two weeks and then all of a sudden come together? Because it seems like that's the case. I think if the Magic could have turned it on, they would have turned it on in that play-in game.

47:35I think there's more in play than that. It's a solid point. Here's what it is. Years ago, the big picture stuff used to tell the whole story. Whoever wins a ton of games in the regular season, that's going to translate pretty seamlessly to the playoffs. The dominant teams are the dominant teams are the dominant teams. Now I think you really have to pay attention. I think it's so much more than who is the first, second, and third seed in each conference. it's where are those meaningful steps forward for a guy like Jaden McDaniels? Where are the literal vulnerabilities where it's like, man, it just seems like when push comes to shove, this team doesn't have enough spacing or doesn't have enough size.

48:08Like when you look at this one matchup, when you look at OKC versus San Antonio, for example, like what does that tell us about both teams? I just think the lessons of the regular season require more and more of a magnifying glass to find, but they're there. It's just not as like big and in flashing lights as it used to be.

48:24Bill Simmons:Yeah, the Celtics thing really rope-a-dope to me. Especially the Jalen part, who was just really good all season and now can't seem to score against any guy in the Sixers. Here's another topic from the Knicks Hawks. I know OJ Ananobi, OJ Ananobi isn't the best forward in the league, but if you just watched round one, you would think he was. And then you would think Paul George was the second best forward in the league. So that's I guess one of the round one storylines, but this is the best he's ever played he was incredible tonight and i thought i thought he was the mvp of the series i think he is the mvp of the sea well cat gives him a good argument there too as well like the triple doubles the playmaking like towns even his defense all proved to be really important that's what it is for me like the knicks offense got whatever it wanted in this game you don't get up by 50 points without doing that but their defense was just like soul crushing in the first half in terms of breaking down everything that Atlanta does.

49:27And they had...

49:27Bill Simmons:And running after they got turned the ball. That's what I'm saying. And OG was a huge part of that, right? He's creating turnovers. He's getting stops. He's getting out on the break and getting easier and easier shots. And then even when they guard him, he's hitting threes over these wings who are like good defenders, but not OG and Anobi sized. And so they had no answer for him really at any point in the series. And he is the exact kind of problem in that Aaron Gordon shaped mold where it's like, if you don't have a counter for this kind of player, he's going to make your life a living hell over seven games.

49:56Bill Simmons:I think they have to be the favorite to win the East now. I'm going to look at the odds. That feels more than fair. After you go on a 67-13 run in a game against a good team. They're not the favorite. They're not? On FanDuel, they're plus 128. The Celtics are minus 102. Oh, and the Cavs are minus 172. I don't get it. Oh, wait. And then for the final... Yeah, they're not the... They're plus 310 to make the finals. So they're plus 128 to make the next round, plus 310 to make the finals, and 16-1 to win it. I would, by far, if your life depended on it, the Knicks have to be the pick from what we've seen so far.

50:37Bill Simmons:Especially if we don't know what we're getting with the Celtics. Right. Which I want to acknowledge is a crazy thing to say given the season they had and the conversations we've been having about the Knicks all year where I think they've been under a lot of scrutiny, some by their own doing, in terms of how they would respond to adversity. and now we know they lost two games by one point, came out with a monster win and then a historically monster win in which they put up, I think the biggest winning margin, like the biggest lead of any game in the - 61 points. Yeah, 61 is the biggest lead of any playoff game in the play-by-play era and then ended up with one of the most decisive closeout games ever.

51:12So, yeah, I think they got it. Well, that's why you gotta look at the playoffs, Rob.

51:15Bill Simmons:Like after Friday, we're like, oh my God, Saturday in Atlanta, game four. We'll see what happens to the next. They might be blowing it up. And now all of a sudden, three days later, it's like, how are they not the favorite of the conference? What's happening? I thought they were awesome today. And they were really fun to watch. They were. And I think, you know, as a Celtics fan, I look at some of the athleticism and how creaky the Celtics kind of looked. They're just not getting really fast break points at all. And then you watch that Knicks team flying around and making plays on defense. It's not looking good for the Celtics.

51:49Bill Simmons:This is where we go like, you know, Tatum came back. We got under the tax. It's a moral victory. Now that some are going to figure it out. Do they hang a banner for getting under the tax? What do they do for that? I don't know. I'll have to ask Bill Chisholm. I hesitate to bring this up, but I'm not going to have another podcast till Sunday. Okay. I do wonder what happens with Jalen long-term if they lose the series. In terms of what the team will do or what will happen to him internally? No, I wonder, does he become a trade possibility? And I don't say that to be aggregated or to start Reddit threads, anything like that.

52:29Bill Simmons:I really genuinely wonder where last year, they lost that Knicks series before Tatum got hurt. They were going to lose that series. Tatum got hurt at the end of a game. They were going to be down 3-1, and they were going to lose that series. They weren't going to come back from that, I don't think. So basically, you flame out in that series, and then you flame out in this round one, two and you have two guys making a combined 120 million dollars and it's looked pretty rocky the past couple years in the playoffs i just wonder would they look at this as a chance to reset i have no idea i have no inside information but i think it has to at least be a conversation right i'm fine with the conversation but i still think he's closer to the guy he was in the regular season than he is to the version that's getting right now yeah i'm not talking about like oh we got to bail on him i'm just talking about big picture he just played his 10th year yeah he was awesome he's going to be a first team on ba is this the highest we could possibly sell could we rebuild around tatum pritchard some of these other guys we have try to get a haul back try to reset our salary maybe go after a free agent or another piece and um i think it's at least going to be a topic if they blow a 3-1 lead to the seven seed.

53:42Look, if you blow that lead and lose all these home games under this circumstance, even with all of the caveats about, oh, this is supposed to be a gap year. Oh, Jason Tatum is still not fully himself yet. All of that's fine. You should still win a series like this. I still would want to bet the future of my team on Tatum and Brown. That's still a core that I believe in. It's still a pairing that I think works as long as those guys want to make it work. And some of it is just the alternatives, right? Like it's, it's much easier said than done to go out and find a better fitting component part or to, to bet on someone like Peyton Pritchard who has great games, but then have like 14 points on 16 shots in this one where they desperately needed more scoring.

54:19So there are a lot of good, but limited players on the Celtics roster who need help and need to play better than they did tonight. Changing the core of it, I don't think solves the problems and they just need to keep adding pieces around the edges. I think more than anything.

54:34Bill Simmons:This is where I give my annual disclaimer or not annual, my guaranteed disclaimer every time this topic comes up. I do not want them to trade either guy. Please keep them together. I like rooting for them. I want them to finish their careers in Boston. I'm just worried that this will become a topic. And I think it's at least worthy of a topic of like, hey, what do we have here? We just had two devastating playoff losses in a row. So like, and I think we, you have the conversations and you land on Tatum came back in March. Yes. You know, Jalen had a huge burden, obviously wore down in the playoffs.

55:12Bill Simmons:Let's try to build a better team around them and let's come back full, full scale next year. We've had an incredible amount of success with this. That is the correct answer for how to handle this. I just don't know with the new owner who knows. I think like the question is almost it's always like does this work well enough to suit our needs does this work well enough to beat the best teams in the league more than it ever is like oh this needs to be blown up immediately like an interrogation of seasons that go sideways every team in the league that loses in this fashion should be doing that we're talking about the nuggets in the same way for the same reason right it's like if you if you need answers as to why you lost a series you should start by looking at the players on the floor and the coaches who coach them?

55:52And like, is there something in these component parts that doesn't make sense in the way that we need it to?

55:59Bill Simmons:Yeah, what happens with that? That's another team that's going to have to have that conversation. Did we take the Jokic Murray Gordon thing as far as we could take it? And now what do we do? We'll see. The Celtics could easily win by 15. Do you have any? I know you did this on Ringer NBA already, but Pistons Magic, Pistons favorite in this one. They got a superhuman performance from Cade at home and barely won. Yeah. And that was without Franz. I don't know if Franz is coming back or not. I think the Magic are going to win game six. I don't think the Pistons have enough, and I don't think Cade can do that two more times.

56:37Bill Simmons:So I just think the Magic are going to win this series. Do you disagree with that? I think the Magic are going to win this series, but I think they do need Franz back at some point. Like, if not for six, then for seven. The defense on Cade is super important, and he's just been so much better at it than even, you know, like a hardworking role player like Jamal Cain or like a good, lively athlete like Anthony Black. It's just not the same thing. Do we get zombie Jonathan Isaac? Is he alive? Where is he? I think he's also still on the injury report. I mean, perpetually, but I think including right now.

57:08Bill Simmons:Can Mike Conley's doctor go see him? Cavaliers, Raptors? I just feel like this goes seven. I pick Cavs in six. My only two series picks were Knicks in six, which hit, and Cavs in six. And yet, I think the Raptors will win this game. what do you think? I think the Cavs might have it not because they're... Tell me why I don't think they're so much better, I just think that they've gotten just enough progression from their bigs as far as being actual contributors to these games now that it's like, okay, now there is a balance to the roster and to the lineup that makes sense, and so if you're getting Evan Mobley to play like an actual big, which they did Jared Allen to play good interior defense, which he did, and you're getting some good supplementary shooting from like I think Sam Merrill's been really important to this rotation like Max Struess's movement, adding him to the starting lineup, I think was a step in the right direction.

57:58And also like, who knows what Brandon Ingram status is going to be. Like the Raptors are another team who are short on bodies, still don't have Emmanuel quickly. Scotty Barnes got dinged up in that game too. He did not look himself at all afterwards either. And they like really need him to be hyper aggressive. So I think there's like a little bit too much of an accumulation. Okay.

58:18Bill Simmons:Lakers, Rockets. Who knows? I have no, I have no feeling on Cavs, Raptors are probably lean Raptors. I don't think I would bet on that. I've kind of stayed away from that series in general. I think the Rockets are going to beat the Lakers. And I think this is destined to go seven. And it just has that feeling. But I do feel like the Rockets found some sort of something with their young guys. And especially Jabari Smith. Like, okay, I guess I'll try to have to make some field goals now. He was really good. And Thompson was a maniac. And Shang-Goon was fine. and I just think it's this Lakers team some of the stuff they did with them strategically, you know, Canard did the CJ McCollum of he had a couple good games and as the series went along he died I just think it's going to be really hard for the Lakers to get the right kind of offense so it feels like seven I think seven is fair I mean this is kind of a test of do you believe in the attrition of a seven game series because it looks like the Lakers are just getting kind of like gradually worn down bit by bit by the athleticism and the activity of Houston's defense.

59:25And by the end of it, like who knows what LeBron is even going to have left? Who knows how comfortable Austin Reeves is going to be as he's still kind of finding his legs. And so if you believe in that kind of like cumulative thing over a playoff series versus the any game, anything can happen sort of like gunslinger mentality, that kind of tells you who you think is going to win it. I just like in my heart of hearts, I don't trust the Rockets. And so it's like, I acknowledge all of the ways that this is weighing down the Lakers, and they do not look like a team that's in control, and they certainly look like a team that's giving up a lot of just, like, speed and power and physicality and size basically across the lineup.

1:00:02I just, I do think the Lakers will win. I think it will be ugly. I just, I just don't trust the Rockets' collective execution.

1:00:10Bill Simmons:Minus three and a half favorites in that one. And then, I guess, Sixers-Seltics. So we're down. We're down to four series. This was still a lot of basketball. I know. Usually by the time we get to Thursday, yeah. Usually by the time we get there. So for the playoffs, big picture, the Minnesota, oh my God. San Antonio is a minus 3 ,000 favorite against Minnesota. Yeah. I mean, he can't come back fast enough. They're just desperately going to need everybody they've got. What's the Gobert-Wemby? I can't remember. What's their relationship? They played on France together, but Wemby kind of, Gobert got a little buried on one of those teams, I remember.

1:00:47I think it's still pretty cordial. I think it's like a big brother kind of relationship a little bit.

1:00:52Bill Simmons:I'd like it to be a little frostier. Well, I mean, look, Gobert's a proud guy. It doesn't take a lot to get under his skin, and he tends to show up when things do. So I hope things do go that way. I need a new favorite player for the playoffs. I'll get back to you on who I pick, a favorite non-Celtic. If we lose the Celtics and Joker and we don't have Steph Curry, I'm just a man adrift at that point. I think if they lose to the Sixers, you should just have to root for Kelly Oubre the rest of the way. Like you should just have to adopt a six year. I, you know, they are really fun to watch. This is one of the more bizarre basketball stories we've had.

1:01:25Bill Simmons:Like we did the best, the worst contracts drafted March and Embiid and Paul George were the two worst contracts. They were the first two picks. And by the way, not controversial at all. It really felt that way. Yeah. And now both of those guys, I mean, the Paul George coming back from the 25 game, we're still not sure what he did suspension. Yeah. and immediately reverting to 2021 Paul George, I don't fully understand, but it's a thing that's happening. It is one of the many reasons why the basketball playoffs have been so strange. I'd go a step further. I don't even think it's just like reverting to the Paul George that we know and admired and inversions past.

1:02:00Like there is something about the way that he does a little bit of everything that makes this like weird hodgepodge Sixers team make some kind of sense. Like, I just don't think they function really without him. And you could see it even in that stretch where he was out. And it's, he's not OKC MVP, Paul George. He's not even quite like the score he was with the Clippers. But it's like the connecting passes, the defense, the conduct, like the contested rebounding. He's like a supercharged Warriors Andre Iguodala at this point. And it's like, that's a really valuable player to have.

1:02:30Bill Simmons:Well, and also being able to run plays for him and he's actually getting good shots and scoring. So are we, if they win game seven, is Daryl Morey, is he back? Winner of the playoffs? Is Morey back? He's like, I told you, Maxi, Paul, George, and Embiid, I told you guys. I can't wait for the victory laps of really all of this playoff run. Like, there's just so much crow to be eaten all around, including by guys like us. So I look forward to it. Well, if Embiid can come back from appendicitis and play Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and play big minutes and do a lot of different stuff, that would be not even one of the three most incredible things that's happened in this playoffs because we had zombie Mike Conley and Jaden McDaniels and whatever else happened tonight.

1:03:16Bill Simmons:All right, Rob Mahoney, when are we going to hear you on Ringer NBA again and see you? We'll be on Ringer NBA Monday morning talking about the weekend's game. So looking forward to it. I mean, hopefully, you'll get some Game 7 actions coming on Sunday as well in addition to the Saturday ones. All right. And I'll text you what happens on my daughter's 21st. Please do. What ends up? Hopefully I don't end up in a gutter somewhere having 10 shots and wondering what happened in the Celtics. Godspeed, Bill. Rob, thanks for staying out. We're going to take a break. Come back. With Billy Gill, talking a little baseball.

1:03:44Bill Simmons:The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. If you bet the Kentucky Derby on FanDuel, which you should, you can bet on all your other favorite sports. Right now, all customers get a Derby bet reset. That's right. That means you'll get a racing bonus back if your bet doesn't win. The app is super easy to use. You don't have to be a horse racing expert to get in on the Derby day. Actually, you got to bet on the Derby. Bet the fastest two minutes in sports on FanDuel. Download the app now to get your bet reset for the Derby. Game of a problem call 1-800-GAMBLER. Age and residency restrictions apply.

1:04:19Bill Simmons:Opt-in required, verified, FD racing account required, refund issues. Not much travel racing site credit that expires nine days after receipt. Max refund$10 unless otherwise specified restrictions. Apply seat terms at racing.fanduel.com. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. You know why elite point guards make everyone better? It isn't just the no-look dimes. It's because they know everything. Who's hot? Who's tired? What the defense is doing? Which teammate needs a basket? Most businesses don't have that. Sales run one play. Marketing runs another. Nobody told service. The game plan has now changed.

1:04:57Bill Simmons:HubSpot gives you that point guard vision. One platform, full customer context. And that context is everything you need to win. visit a hubspot.com to learn more. All right. The Duke Billy Gill is here. You can find him on a bunch of ringer things, including ringer tailgate, the, uh, the biggest hit show of 2026. Um, before we go to baseball, because we're going to wrap up the month in baseball, April, I guess we technically started in March. I asked last week, why did people go to the NFL draft and got a bunch of different responses? I'm just going to cold call you on this one. 320 ,000 people in Pittsburgh.

1:05:37Bill Simmons:It's free. There's food and drink. It's a big clusterfuck and you get to watch some guys pick. Would you ever do this? I maybe once. I think they said for the weekend, it was like 800 ,000 for the, for the three days, right? I don't know the people who go on day three. Like there's the people that I guess day two, maybe, but day three, Mike Vrabel didn't even show up to. So like, why are fans in Pittsburgh showing up to day three of the draft? You know who showed up? Michael Keaton came out and made a pick. Pittsburgh fan. Yeah. Batman was out there day three. Maybe that's why you go. You just don't know what's going to happen.

1:06:16I don't like that. I don't like that for Michael Keaton. I feel like it's for Keaton. Yeah. I mean, first round. Okay. Like, you know, the commissioner does the big picks, but you can't be more than day two if you're Michael Keaton. Once they say day three, it's like, no, thank you.

1:06:31Bill Simmons:That's a pass. All right. Baseball. really kind of fun, crazy season so far. Do you want to go with the teams that are in complete shambles? Because I asked you to do a top five. Actually, no, no. You know what? I'm turning this over to you. I asked you to do a top five list. I was going to say to do glass half full or glass half empty with some of the teams, but let's do the list. And then whatever's left, we'll talk about after. So you're going to do a list. Top five biggest things. I said top five most hugest things Things that have happened last five weeks. Yeah. This is what has happened with our baseball discussions and previews so far.

1:07:07It's a little vague. So first one, I treated kind of like a cocktail party, whereas like if this is a cocktail party you go to where baseball comes up for whatever reason, these are topics that you could talk to. Last one, I was just nerding out about the World Baseball Classic. This one, I thought, you know what? This is a thing this weekend. You have a big celebration, a wedding or something. Maybe you see people you haven't talked to in a while. You know, they're sports fans. let's go back to the cocktail party. Let's just talk about the things that are going on. You don't have to be paying too close attention to baseball.

1:07:37You just throw out these stories and like, wow, this person is really in on what's happening this season in baseball so far.

1:07:44Bill Simmons:Okay, so you want to go one to five or do you want to go five to one? Let's go one to five. I mean, these aren't necessarily like a top 10. This is like the biggest story. That's the worst story. These are just five things that are going on and you can kind of rank them in your own importance based on who you're talking to, based on the demographic, the area you're in, what you think they might find interesting. So this is just for you. This is a little appetizer. You like pick it up, get this, then regurgitate it to your friend. So the first one, I mean, this is a big one that's been happening this week.

1:08:13Firings. I mean, it's April. We have two managerial firings already.

1:08:19Bill Simmons:Including one of the weirdest managerial slash coach firings in the history of Boston sports since I've been following any of my teams. firing Alex Cora two games into a three-game series in Baltimore after they had a blowout win. I just don't understand the timing of it at all, why they didn't just wait until after the series. The thing is, I mean, you would know better than I would. You're watching all the Red Sox games. You're a Red Sox fan. Obviously, they're not happy there. They've been chanting, sell the team, want John Henry's there in the stand. So something was going to change, But it was not, I think, what anyone was hoping for would change or especially not the manager that thought they would fire.

1:08:59So they fire Alex Gore. He has obviously a great track record. He had technically his second stint with the Red Sox because he has the first one. And then they had the whole Apple Watch situation where he was suspended for a year and they parted ways and they hired poor Ron Renike. And then after a season and the fake suspension was over, Ron Renike was gone and they brought Alex back immediately. I think that the best summary of this was by the anonymous alum of the Red Sox, which I'm sure you saw, which was it's like shitting your pants and changing your shirt. That seems to be kind of the attitude so far with how this hire went.

1:09:39I don't know if you saw the pictures that went out there, but then, you know, Veritech was one of the coaches that was let go. They picked them up in like these charter vans down. The Charters van said coaches for hire because they were coach vans or whatever, which is like not intentional. He then gave the thumbs down, which Veritek like this says, be careful. You know, you've been part of this family for 30 years. There's rumors that they're just reassigning you. You'll be back. Let's not upset anyone too much and cost yourself a future position.

1:10:07Bill Simmons:So Cora wasn't awesome the last five years. He was fine, but you know, he won in 2018, which is also eight years ago. I also don't think he was the problem. The problem is the roster. what's been interesting is all the stories and stuff that's come out after and it really just seems to me like the gm's not that good but spends a lot of time with the owner and they've had like signings or young guys or young guys they've gotten behind who haven't done well or a couple pitchers or they've traded pitchers away like kyle harrison this year who's now really good on the brewers so if you're in job protection mode and you're the gm you're just throwing the coaching staff under the bus.

1:10:44Bill Simmons:You were like, I told you Kyle Harrison was going to be good. I don't know what we were doing with him. I had to trade him before he was, wasn't asking him now he's good, but he should have been good here. And I just think he undermined the manager and the coaches because he, they got rid of all the hitting coaches, but kept the pitching. Cause the pitching has been a little more reliable and it just sucks. Cause the GM is a robot. Nobody likes him. And, uh, and the team just feels rudderless. And I don't know why John Henry even wants to own it. Nobody thinks he's doing a good job anymore. Well, that takes us to our next managerial firing, which was the Phillies, which I think was also surprising.

1:11:21And Alex Cora is connected to that because they offered Alex Cora that job after they fired Rob Thompson, which is kind of weird. And he said, no, I'm going to take time, which is probably good. Cause then he doesn't have to just end up right back and, you know, managing the Phillies, which are struggling. They're one of the two teams that has a 10 plus game losing streak this season along with the Mets. And then who do they hire? They go to their bench coach, Don Mattingly, who before the season, Don Mattingly, I'm not a fan of Don Mattingly, but before the season, Don Mattingly bench coach last year of the Toronto Blue Jays.

1:11:53I'm surprised, honestly, that he hasn't managed since he managed the Marlins a couple of years ago. And he's just been bench coaching ever since. But Donnie Baseball was asked before the season if he if he was interested in managing again. And he threw out the generic, oh, you know, I don't have the energy to keep managing. I'm just, you know, I don't still have it in me. And then Dave Dombrowski said, hey, Donnie Baseball, you want to manage this team? He said, absolutely. And then they asked him in the press conference, like, hey, what happened there? Because we asked you before the season if you had any interest in managing again.

1:12:26And you kind of hinted at it and said, you didn't have the energy to do this anymore. And he's like, yeah, Rob was here. So I didn't want to kind of ruffle any feathers. So I just kind of said that thing, but I'm good. I'm good to manage. Then he wins the first game. And they're like, did you give any big speeches to the guys? Did you rally the troops? What'd you say? And then he was just kind of like, congratulations. It's just another game. Like we're supposed to be winning these. Like, what do you want me to say to them? You know, it's Donnie baseball.

1:12:52Bill Simmons:Well, you think like when you came on before the year, we were talking about all of these big market teams that had a chance to be good and how what an unusual spot it was for baseball. Right. Big cities, big marquee players, and it just felt like it was going to be an awesome season. Then the season starts. Red Sox suck. Mets suck. Phillies suck. Dargers start out okay, but certainly not a threat to win 120. But that's just baseball. I didn't follow what was going wrong with the Phillies, but it seems like mirror image of what was happening with the Red Sox. Just complete disappointment. They've been disappointing.

1:13:29Another disappointing, not a managerial firing yet, but on the hot seat and probably will be fired soon is Carlos Mendoza of the Mets. They lose 12 straight, 10 and 20 this season. He's had his two seasons that he's managed have been winning season, but they had that epic collapse last year. They've gotten off on the wrong foot this year. He had a couple of days ago, a situation where he got ejected. He was like just going out of his way to bump the umpire. I love the Mets pitcher. Mets pitcher goes and fields a ball that's right on the line, throws it into the, it didn't go into the stands, it stayed in the play, but just like swipes at it with his glove to try to shoo it foul.

1:14:03It's called fair. Three pirates end up scoring on the play because they, instead of going after the ball, just decide to argue with the home plate umpire. So the pirates just keep rounding the bases and scoring. Mendoza comes out, he's screaming, he's chest to chest, like actually like physically bumping the umpires. He gets ejected. I think he knows he's on his way out. So he's like, I gotta do something here. I gotta show some fight. I like it. Yeah, I do too. Honestly, that's the one thing about replay, not APS. We'll get to that later on. That's the one thing I miss about replay is the managers getting ejected because you can't really argue anything.

1:14:35And if you go out and you argue something that's reviewed, you immediately get wrong. So there's no theatrics anymore. I miss that.

1:14:42Bill Simmons:How's our dude in San Francisco who came from college and had five team meetings in the first eight days or whatever? I'd say they're like 500, right? Well, we thought we thought that he was not going to make it out of week one. And they already started going and they were like kind of putting out like the PR like, no, trust this guy. They're four games under right now. They're last in the West. I mean, the problem with being last in the West is you have the Dodgers there. Yeah. You have a better looking Rockies who are at the bottom too. And the Padres are going to be contenders. So it's definitely a tough division for him to be in.

1:15:14I mean, you went to a game this year, right?

1:15:15Bill Simmons:I did. Has there been comedy with him now? Or is it just kind of depressing? It's just been like nothing that stands out. That's like, wow, this guy really doesn't know what he's doing. It's just... He wasn't offering his players NIL money or anything. Okay. No. And I honestly, I think that he might, and we talked about this last time. He may be the one that gets Buster Posey fired, which is kind of like, then he'll be double hated because Buster Posey is so beloved by the Giants fans out there. I hate him too. I have my baseball. He's not a fan of Buster Posey. I think he ruined, he ruined the catching position.

1:15:47He ruined the play at the plate because he had to go and he had to get trucked by Scott cousins. And then he injured his leg. And then they just changed all the rules for catchers forever. Then you had like three seasons where you needed to give the runner a lane and you had no idea like, well, does he have a lane? Does he not have a lane? They were calling guys safe at home plate that never even touched the base because it was ruled that they didn't have a lane and they didn't even try to slide like Buster Posey, one of the people who has ruined baseball, but we'll digress and not get into that today.

1:16:16Bill Simmons:Think of all the fights he cost us. I mean, the guy barreling into the catcher was a top three baseball fight starter. I mean, guy barreling into the catcher was one of the greatest playoff baseball moments ever when it was the Giants against the Marlins down here. Pudge Rodriguez, JT Snow hits him. He holds onto the ball. He pulls it out, ends the NLDS, which is like, of all the series, is like the whatever series, right? Now there's all these wildcard rounds, so NLDS is a little bit better, but the NLDS always kind of felt like these are the day games that you get out of the way. early on. No one's really paying attention.

1:16:49Bill Simmons:So good stuff to bet on. That's it. All right. So we got managerifying. What's your next thing? Are juiced balls back in baseball? A lot of home runs this year. You have eight guys, I believe, who already have 10 home runs. You have Aaron judge with 12. You have more kami with 12. Mike Trout, by the way, is back. We, anyone who wrote off Mike Trout and said, you know what? This guy may be the greatest of all time until his teammate Shohei Otani came in. He's definitely the greatest all time. We kind kind of forgot about Mike Trout and he's just been existing out there in Anaheim. He gets hurt every year.

1:17:21Well, that's the thing. But he's healthy this year, already has 10 home runs on the season. Then you have like another six that have nine home runs already this season. We could have, I mean, the pace probably won't keep up.

1:17:32Bill Simmons:Drew Romo got called up to the White Sox the other day. I know this because we picked him up on my own keeper team. Switch hit catcher, home runs from each side in his first game. That's when I was like, what's going on with these balls? Okay. Where are you? Not that this is the topic, but where are you on your budget for the year? Because I've gotten updates throughout the year and it seems like you're constantly putting flyers out there and spending money. And we're a month in and I don't think that you're budgeting this properly. No, we've spent 40 of our 100, but we've spent smartly, including Eric Getty on the Astros for 17, which we really needed.

1:18:06Bill Simmons:We have Brian Baio, who has given up 26 earned runs already this season, which is four more than anyone else in baseball. and has one of the highest DRAs heading into May of any starting pitcher, I think, this century. So, needs to say, we needed some help. Was he a keeper or did you spend money on him? He sadly was a$7 keeper and my least favorite player of 2026 because he's killing my favorite team and my AL keeper team. It's a double murder. Well, which is worse for you? Do you hold grudges based on fantasy, like failures? 100 ,000%. Yeah. I still hate Jose Ramirez because we had his one bad Indians year and I just still hate his guts.

1:18:47So I hate Jordan Walker of the Cardinals because he's been doing great. And I hate him because I drafted him four seasons too early. And then I would keep him year after year. And then he finally did it. And then I was like, I've given up on Jordan Walker. I'm done with him. This isn't going to work out for me. And of course, this year he's coming out and he's hot.

1:19:07Bill Simmons:That's us with Josh Young on the Rangers who's finally lightening it up. We had him forever. I had him for the entire 2020s. Yeah. I had, I had James Wood last year on my team from the nationals and opted to keep Jackson Merrill instead of him because I thought, you know, this will be the year Jackson Merrill finally turns it around for the Padres and I would be keeping him at a higher round than James Wood. So I'm like, I'll make it up. James Wood ends up going in the first round and has like 10 home runs already. So it really hurts. No, it's really painful. Yeah. It's, you put a lot of time in these guys for your fake baseball team and they don't respect it.

1:19:40Well, I invested in them. I believe in them before anyone else. I believe in them more than they believe in themselves. And then they let me down. And then when I say, you know what? It's not you. It's me. Like, let's just kind of end this. Then all of a sudden they become like the hottest person out there. They're dating again, rubbing to my face.

1:19:55Bill Simmons:This is the worst one though. And we didn't have them. But if, you know, the guy who had Mason Miller in our league, who now goes to the National League and becomes having one of the greatest pitching seasons of all time, that hurts even more where it's like that that just got stolen from you okay you know what we're gonna go out of order here and we're gonna bring we're gonna bring up that topic because he's on the list there's been really good pitching this year yeah we have all of the home runs we were just talking about the ball being juiced mason miller he's out there for the padres going back to last season has 34 and two-thirds consecutive scoreless innings it ends kind of like not in the best way this year you have jose soriano who had 150 strikeouts last year but he had like a mid-four era he's like 500 record as a pitcher.

1:20:40Yeah. On the angels too. On the angels, five and one point eight, four, you're a third in the league and strikeouts under one whip just comes out. I mean, you would think it's going to catch up to him. They'll see, you know, tape or whatever, figure out whatever it is that he's changed this year. But you have these things every year where you just have this kind of like average player just come out of nowhere. And this, if you go back to Trevor Rogers last year,

1:21:05Bill Simmons:Like where the fuck did he come from? He's another one that's dead to me because Trevor Rogers was a guy that was a Marlin back in the day. Right. And he made the all-star team as a rookie because every team needs to have an all-star. And it's like, okay, this is like a good starter. And then he was just like a middle of the road guy. It's like a six ERA year in and year out. It's like, okay, whatever. He ends up on the Orioles. And then he's like a Cy Young award winner. The only reason he doesn't win any of the actual like ERA titles or strikeouts or any of that, he wasn't in contention because he didn't start the season.

1:21:34He didn't have enough innings pitched, but he was electric last year. Now he's back.

1:21:38Bill Simmons:Now he fell back to her. Well, and Shohei Otani too, in terms of pitching, he's great. I don't know what else to say about it. So we have like, we have some awesome starters and we have a couple awesome closers, but there is this middle ground of pitcher that's just getting hammered. And I think those are the guys giving up most of the home runs. The middle ground guys are the ones that are supplying. Those guys are just getting destroyed. They're supplying the maybe multiple 60 home run players this season for us. So God bless them too, because they're in there to really kind of save the game.

1:22:10Honestly, they're probably more entertaining than the guys are striking everyone out. They'll get us out of the game quick and it'll be like a two hour and 15 minute game. But the other guys are the ones providing the fireworks.

1:22:19Bill Simmons:What's your next one? All right, next thing. Is ABS the greatest thing to happen to baseball since the wild card? I was trying to think back. What's the best year? I was trying to think back. What's the best year that something has happened? like I think the wild card is the best thing that happened to baseball for ABS but ABS I mean you have catchers who are out there embarrassing umpires umpires can't do anything about it Salvador Perez seems to take joy in embarrassing the umpires and seems to know the strike zone better than any catcher out there yeah then you have the game that you were watching the Red Sox game earlier this year where Eugenio Suarez of the Reds is called out looking and then he challenges it and they're like no that's a ball then he gets called out looking again challenges it no that's a ball then he flies out but it was a homer there would have been amazing yeah that would it kind of turned the red season around now that now the reds are a contender i mean two straight abs wins one of the surprise teams of the season so far the reds they have a surprise to me because watching them in that series i was like are these guys good i thought the reds weren't it was like one of those it's like here's another pitcher throwing 97 well speaking of the reds i I don't know if that was even their biggest ABS challenge win of the season, because earlier this week, the Reds had one of the more memorable ABS challenges of the season where they're up seven to two in the ninth inning.

1:23:41And there's a promotion where if the Reds strike out 11 batters, the fans in the stands get free pizza. Oh, wow. So they're up five runs, ninth inning, not a close game. All of a sudden Reds catcher challenges a call. So then everyone's just waiting around because they know we're, we're sitting on 10 strikeouts right now. What are we going to do? Yeah. The momentum, the anticipation is building. All of a sudden the graphic pops up on the screen. The ball comes in and you see it got a corner. There's a little red circle around the ball. Strike three. He's called out. He has to walk back. The place erupts.

1:24:17The crowd's going crazy because they get free pizza.

1:24:21Bill Simmons:Unbelievable. I love those promotions in baseball where it's attached to like these random of things that I guess insurance companies or whatever, like figure out probabilities and like, yeah, like how many times are going to strike out 11 hitters in a game? So they do it. Basketball does it too with the free throws. And it always seems like it gives an electric surge to the crowd. I like it too. I like the guys that this was the case. I think in Cincinnati, I like the guys who are aware of the promotion and know like, Hey, especially the road guys in basketball, because basketball is usually attached to like road free throws.

1:24:52And if they miss like two in a row, you'll get like 10 chicken nuggets somewhere or something, right? So the road guy that knows, okay, this is a promotion. My team's down by 15 right now. There's two minutes left. I could just miss these two free throws with everybody chicken nuggets. What difference does it make to me? You know, I become a fan favorite. Then the place erupts because they win the nuggets. Huge fan. Also, I don't know if you saw this theory floating out there about ABS before we go on to our final topic in our cocktail party. There's been a theory floating around Twitter where obviously for years, catchers framing has been a big thing where you put value in the catchers who catch the ball out of the strike zone, bring it in.

1:25:30In our baseball preview, I was saying, you know what? I think that those guys are going to have a hard time because you can no longer be the catcher that can't hit and can't do anything, but is great at framing and tricking the umpire. There's a theory that's been out there on Twitter, and there's been some minor evidence that maybe it's in place where catchers can now do the opposite, where catchers can catch a ball in the strike zone and frame it out of the strike zone. So it gets called a strike.

1:25:57Bill Simmons:Wow. And they, and they bait the hitter into wasting an ABS challenge on a ball. That's a strike that when they look back, they're like, that was definitely out of the zone because the catcher has moved the glove out of the strike zone just to get them to waste their ABS challenges. It's the next level. This is pretty good. I like ABS. When you talked about the most important things that they've changed over the years. Pitch clock is obviously up there, but the single most important thing ever where it was just the two leagues and it was like premier league, you just won the league and then you played in the world series.

1:26:31Bill Simmons:Whenever they thought to split that up and have division playoffs, which is, I think like 1969, somewhere around there. I still like that's probably the most, but that's probably the most important decision they ever made. Right. Cause the Yankees would be at 25 games in August and literally everybody else would be eliminated. there would be like seven weeks left. How do you feel? Were you a big, I mean, you're an AL guy. So you're a DH guy. I hated when they made the DH universal thing. I love the pitchers hitting in the national. I hated it. I thought I liked having different leagues. Well, I liked also when then you'd have like the AL hitters come.

1:27:06I wasn't a huge fan of interleague play. Cause it took a little bit away from the world series for me, but whatever, it's fine. But when you'd have the ALs guys come and they'd have to hit in the NL parks and you'd be like, Oh my God, like this, this guy could actually hit. Then we lose out on the Madison Bumgarners of the world who are hitting like eight home runs a season as a pitcher.

1:27:23Bill Simmons:I love that Rick Sutcliffe was another good one. Yeah, there's been some good ones over the years. I don't like it. All right, what's your last one? Final topic here for the sports cocktail party. The rookie class this year has been really good in baseball. McGonagall is like leading all these different categories. They are in the top two. It's insane. He has incredible, I mean, he's not a guy that's going to go out and hit you 40 home runs, or at least not this year. but he has great plate discipline. I think he has walked 16 times to 17 strikeouts, which is a crazy ratio. Great batting average, great OPS.

1:27:57And he's one of four guys this season, and he's one of two that's active, that has already signed a contract extension, which is like a very rare thing. He signed a contract extension 20 games into his service time to buy out all of his arbitration. So he signs an eight-year,$150 million contract. So it's a steal 20 games in the Tigers are like, you know what? We got to lock this guy up.

1:28:23Bill Simmons:Sadly, that's what the Red Sox did with Roman Anthony, who is now at an absolute free fall. So I don't know if that always works. I was going to ask you about the firing. If you're down on Roman at all, or if you're just kind of like, eh, this is just not the season. Roman's been a complete mess. He's been a mess in the field. It's a big topic with all the Red Sox fans wondering what the hell happened. Um, and I have no answers. but this was somebody i would have bet anything on that this guy had it same way you would bet now with mcgonagall yeah um last year anthony before he got hurt it was like oh my god this guy's gonna be in my life for 20 years and he's just been a mess this year so hopefully he's just going through a funk well he didn't i don't think his was as high as 150 either was it no he was he was like eight for 100 mcgonagall they were just like we're all in this is he's a shortstop too which is yeah yeah a little more important so they they also the other one that was signed this year was Connor Griffin, who we talked about before the season, number one prospect the Pirates brought up.

1:29:20He signed a nine-year, $140 million contract with five years of service. Him so far, you know, slow start, but he's a rookie. He just turned 20. They bought him, I don't know if you saw, they bought him a bounce house that they put in the Pirates locker room because I think they asked Skeens, like, what do you buy him? And he's like, what do you get a 20-year-old, a bounce house? And then a couple of days later, there's a bounce house in there. He's only hitting 231, two home runs, but he has plenty of time to figure it out. Two more guys that signed contract extensions this season. Both of these have zero days service time.

1:29:49So the Mariners signed their shortstop, eight year,$95 million, Cole Emerson. And the Brewers signed their shortstop, Cooper Pratt, eight years,$50.75 million. Neither of those have played yet in the major leagues. Both of them also kind of sneaky struggling right now in the minors, but everyone's just locking up their guys. First month of the season, we had all this stuff. It's great if it works.

1:30:10Bill Simmons:Like in the NBA, we would be doing this. You would do this with Cooper Flagg or Dylan Harper or Concanipple. like you would get the two extra years and give them more money, right? Well, the one guy that I remember like historically this happening with was back in 2008, Evan Longoria, who the Rays locked up immediately when they called up. Do you want to guess what his contract length and amount was at that time? 2008. Probably, I'm going to say eight years, 40 million or something. They signed Evan Longoria, their face of the franchise player who ended up being great. Six years, 17 and a half million dollars.

1:30:51Bill Simmons:And that was their big move? That was their big move. Oh my God. I mean, listen, if anyone can sign a player for six years, 17 and a half million dollars. Incredible. Well, the Red Sox saved Christian Cambo who had this awesome spring training a year ago and they gave him eight for 60, I think. And then he went, he had a career crater. is in triple a now yeah so they went all in on him and he can he can barely play i do feel like there's a lot of rookies all over the place and then you look at like the athletics who are leading the west now and their team's just loaded with dudes like all these they're like a triple a all-star team basically just kind of tread water well i mean they have the small park the only you have to be worried about pitching there because their players can hit because it's a it's a small park so they're going to hit them out but the pitchers have to pitch there so they can give those up.

1:31:39Did you see there was a leak potentially of what the A's new name might be in Las Vegas? What was it? So someone was out there looking at like job listings on the A's website. And this is like not confirmed, obviously, by any chance. But there was a guy out there looking at job listings on the A's website and found a number of job listings. And then underneath it, it said the Las Vegas Black Flames. And then he was like, what is that? So then he kept looking at every single job. Every single job that was listed said Las Vegas Black Flames. What does that even mean? I don't know because when I think about a flame and fire, you think like white or red or orange.

1:32:20I've never heard of Black Flames.

1:32:22Bill Simmons:Why wouldn't it be like the Las Vegas Hot Streaks? I don't know why it can't be the Las Vegas. shouldn't it be something where you're on like a streak or a bender or winning money i don't know you know what i was wrong it's the black fire black fire that's even weirder so black fire is a scientific phenomenon where a flame appears black or dark when a sodium rich fire like salt and alcohol is lit fuck uh the las vegas black fire this could be one of those things Two words or one word? It is two words. I don't think it's going to work. Can I give you my big takeaway for the baseball season? Because it's a really sad Red Sox season.

1:33:08Okay.

1:33:09Bill Simmons:And I'm worried that I'm not going to watch enough baseball. And I don't know. Hopefully they'll come back. But they're like, they stink. They're 12 and 18. Crochet's on the DL now. It's like. But this is the perfect time. Like, this is the time for baseball to stink because everyone's distracted. Right, because I'm watching NBA and NHL. I get it. So they did this thing last year where they would put this furry helmet on people after they hit a home run. Teams have these different gimmicks when you come back to the dugout. So they did this year, but this team doesn't have the same chemistry this year at all.

1:33:43Bill Simmons:And they don't really seem to have the same kind of leadership. It's almost like our WBC American team, just kind of a grim group of guys. so then they they do this somebody at a homer and they put this big green fur helmet on him and he goes back in they hit him but there's like no camaraderie with it and it's just kind of sad i think they should make a rule nobody can decide on their gimmick until may 1st let's buy some time i don't think the red sox needed any gimmick and when the gimmicks come it usually comes when because one of the things we love about baseball is when the team kind of has the magic, right?

1:34:19Bill Simmons:Where it's like, oh shit, we got something this year. Whoa, they're doing stuff at second base and they're doing little like signals to each other. And oh, it's really happening. Nothing sadder than watching a bad baseball team. We try to adhere to force gimmicks. I fucking hate it. I wish they would just get the new manager should just been like, we're done. We're good. We're, we're done with all of these. Is it like Wally, the mascot? Like it's like a Wally head or something or just some brand. That's what it is. The, uh, the pirates, I think have a welder's helmet, which is kind of cool for the Pirates, just because of Steel City and all that, but they're not off to the best start.

1:34:55Bill Simmons:Like rigid, firm handshakes, like somebody zags and goes back to the 1960s. They just do this to each guy that wouldn't wear. That's like Team USA, WBC stuff, I think. Weren't they saluting or something when they were celebrating? It's one of the reasons we lost. Plus, you didn't mention as one of your cocktail storylines the damage from the WBC. The collateral damage of all these different dudes then culminating in a 44-year-old getting arrested for having, not arrested, getting caught. Do you see the shortstop on one of the Latin American teams? Yeah, Alexi Ramirez, I think. He's on the Cuban team.

1:35:28Bill Simmons:Four different types of steroids in his body. Honestly, if you're 44, you're out of baseball. You're not going to come. Who cares? What are they going to do? He's like, what can you give me? I'll take it. Are you going to suspend me for 81 games? I'm not playing in your league anymore. I'm out. I work in a hardware store. What's going to happen? Yeah. Is it true? I've seen multiple pictures. The Red Sox have like a sign behind home plate that kids eat free after every win. So the rumor that's been going or the joke that's been going around is the red, the kids in Boston are starving because they can't win games.

1:36:01Yeah.

1:36:02Bill Simmons:Yeah. Sad time. It's tough. The thing is, um, there's really no hope either unless Roman Anthony gets going because the crochet piece losing 200 innings of a guy who every five days would just come out and throw seven, eight innings and be awesome. But we felt that that last year, he was over 200 innings. And anytime that happens with a pitcher, you're always like, uh-oh. Oh boy. Should you come out there? Can you spin it? Like, well, this, you know, if there's a time to get injured, this is the time. He's only got certain pitches in the chamber. Let's not waste them on this like crap season. Maybe.

1:36:39Bill Simmons:I mean, the good thing is for them, like it's not like anybody's like running away with the wild card or anything like that. So we'll see. How are your Marlins? How are your Marlins? There's like three wild cards now. Yeah. Marlins are fine. They're second in the East right now behind the Braves, but they're, I think, a game or two. Big series against the Dodgers. They won two or three. They blew the first one. Two could have swept the Dodgers. But, I mean, they're behind the Braves, but they're like six and a half back already behind the Braves. It's a bad division, but they're probably going to have to contend for the wild card, and there's a lot of good teams in the NL.

1:37:10Bill Simmons:The only other cocktail thing you didn't mention was the Ben Rice-Aaron Judge combo. and whatever's going on there. So we traded Ben Rice in our Keeper League and it's just haunting us because he's eligible a catcher. But those guys together and then whenever Stanton can put together three straight healthy weeks. I don't know. The Yanks feel like they have a little something this year. I mean, they have offensive firepower for sure. Yeah, they're a little scary. They just need to... I mean, the Yankees just need to make it to the playoffs and then stay healthy in the playoffs and not collapse, Oh, I thought you were saying for us, the Yankees just need to make it to the playoffs and then they will collapse.

1:37:48Well, no, I'm saying if you're a Yankees fan, if you're the Yankees, they just need to not collapse. Like, they'll be fine in the regular season.

1:37:55Bill Simmons:We know they're going to collapse in the playoffs. Oh, I hope they collapse. Aaron Boone is another one of my baseball grudges that I hate. So, like, nothing makes me happier than when people are screaming to fire Aaron Boone. Well, how about the fact that he lasted longer than Alex Cora? The odds of that would have been, like, I don't know, 10 to 1 a year ago? every year they want to fire him it seems like and he just keeps kind of sticking around this is where i think baseball misses george steinbrenner honestly because george steinbrenner would not have been putting up with aaron all of this time he wouldn't been putting up with stanton and the big contract that he had when they brought him over which now is like one of the best contracts in baseball is like 300 million dollars for like 10 years at the time and now he's like middle of the road salary guy but he would have been telling to get out there telling him he wasn't injured.

1:38:43Like I kind of miss George Steinbrenner going out there and really just being a menace.

1:38:47Bill Simmons:Well, we also, the last cocktail party thing, the Padre is selling for$3.9 billion to a billionaire Jose Feliciano. No relation. But it seems like that sale is going to hold, but holy shit. So baseball's doing well, right? As we head to a massive lockout that might cancel all of next season. They're doing, and we didn't even talk about Warikami, who's been incredible. who came over and who's a rookie. 12 homers. I think the concern about him was because he set a single season record for home runs a couple years ago in Japan. And the question was, is this going to translate so far? It's translate.

1:39:20I mean, his batting average is low, but who cares? Chase DeLauder came out and he had a great start to the season. Four homers in three games. Sal Stewart is out there with the Reds, another rookie who's great. The Reds have convinced themselves, Reds fans, I do too. The Reds have convinced themselves that they may have two 40-40 players this season on the same team with him and Ellie De La Cruz. Ellie De La Cruz, another guy who I was in on real early. That's a guy where like five years ago I was struggling. I was like draft day and I was like, oh God, who do I keep? Because our league has like a minor league roster slot that you could draft a minor league player.

1:39:56So I text Mike Scherr and I was like, do you have any names? He's like, get this guy Ellie De La Cruz. I'm like, perfect. Get him in like the 17th round or something. They call him up that season. God, incredible. This year I was going to lose him because you can only keep him for two seasons after you draft him. So I traded him at the deadline last year to get a number one pick for this year's draft. And I was like, eh, last year a little bit disappointing. Like, I could afford it. I'll get a first rounder for this year's draft, which I think ended up being spent on like Pete Alonso or something, which is a disaster.

1:40:26And now Eli belongs on his team for two seasons because once you trade for a keeper, you could keep him for an additional two seasons. So that's another guy that it's like, I want you to succeed.

1:40:35Bill Simmons:Now you're putting your stink on him. No, I like him. I like to think I discovered him on guys. Oh, you take credit for it. I like it. Yeah. On guys that are rookies that I draft and I put in my rookie slot. Yeah. I take credit for another guy, Pete Crow Armstrong. You discovered him. Yeah. Pete Crow Armstrong was another one of my minor league slot guys. And then I had him for two seasons and I was like, this guy's not going to pan out. So I let him go last season and it comes out. It's like, oh, wow, this is one of the best players in baseball. That was a mistake. Him and him last year. the two worst guys I decided not to keep Pete Crow Armstrong, Cal Raleigh, both of them on my team the year before that I could have kept.

1:41:13And Cal Raleigh was a free agent pickup that would have cost me a 20th round pick. And I was like, oh God, you're just not good at evaluating talent. Yeah.

1:41:21Bill Simmons:The Mariners seem like they were going to have a year from hell season, but I think they've raided the ship and they have the guy that's in our minor league system in the Ale Keeper League, Kate Anderson, waiting to potentially come up. I mean, their division is winnable. They could be a playoff team. They're 500. They'll be fine. We were wondering, you know, World Baseball Classic, that was looking like the biggest loser of the World Baseball Classic was the Mariners. They were all fighting with each other, saying that they didn't care about winning the World Series. No, it really was. The signs were there.

1:41:54Bill Simmons:No, but I think they read the ship. They're okay. All right, Billy Gill. Good cocktail. I like the baseball cocktail party gimmick. I did too. Just take some tidbits from us, drop them around at a wedding, bar mitzvah, graduation party, uh, 50th birthday dinner, 30th birthday dinner, whatever. Uh, good to see you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Hey mama. Thanks for making all my favorite recipes. Hi mom. Thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi mom. Thanks for always being by the phone. Hey mom. Happy mother's day. When you ship UPS air at the UPS store, your items arrive on time or your money back.

1:42:30Guaranteed at no extra cost. Exclusively at the UPS Store U.S. retail locations. Visit the upsstore.com slash airshipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply. Send your Mother's Day gifts at the UPS Store and we'll get your gratitude there on time.

1:42:44Bill Simmons:All right, Jace Gitsap Salinas here. We're taping this on a Thursday afternoon before Knicks Hawks. It was too risky to do it after Knicks Hawks. You just never know with that team. Although you got to be feeling pretty good. We don't need to talk about them. Yeah, yeah, feeling good right now. But yes, you never know. OGN and OB rising up the rankings, the most popular Knicks. Yeah, shit's happening. Shit's going down. The focal point. Grand Theft Alvarado. Some things are happening. Okay. Yeah. Survivor 50. Yeah. An absolute tour de force of the season. We have now nine people left. We had a two-hour episode last night that, dare I say, was one of the best episodes in the recent history of the show.

1:43:21Bill Simmons:We had a Mr. Beast cameo. We had an unbelievable coin flip. um where you're you're a historian of the show where did that one rank on the on the great episodes you know what i mean it's up there it's it's historic as rizzo said where we saw things in this episode that we've never seen before and i was you know i think um with regards to mr beast cameo i i like a lot of longtime survivor fans i had a little trepidation about that but But he made it about the competition, which was really cool. And the twist was really interesting. He brought this coin that you could flip. And if it came up the called side, the person who flipped it gets immunity is safe.

1:44:09And the prize pot for everyone, for whoever wins Survivor, doubles to$2 million if they lose their out. So, you know, Devin's stepped up and I think that was probably the right call because it seemed like Devin's was going to go home. So why not?

1:44:25Bill Simmons:Great call by him. Great call for them to increase the prize pot. I've had an issue about this for a long time. This show started in 2000 and it was a million dollars. So I don't know what inflation is from 2000 to 2026, but it feels like we could have bumped that up anyway. It's been in between three and five percent. So yes, I agree with you. We should have been, it should have been popping up. Not to mention we're cutting costs. Like it's a shorter game now. They're on the island for less amount of time. Let's pump it up, get the stakes, get the juice flowing. And you can see that everybody was excited about it, except for Joe, who when his arch rival Devins hit and was immune, did not even flinch.

1:45:09Bill Simmons:No. Did not look excited about it. You know, it's funny. I mean, the edit can obviously shape some of this as you're watching it, but I was completely 100 % convinced, A, that Devin's was going to be the one that flipped the coin. Like, that's just his personality. And then B, I really thought he was going to hit it. Like, it almost made me want to go to Vegas with him and just do roulette. To succeed at any sort of gambling like that, you really have to have that irrational confidence and exuberance. Always works in Vegas. So when he was like, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do heads because my kids love Mr.

1:45:43Bill Simmons:Beast. And I was just like, yeah, I'm going to fucking get this. He really is. It was interesting, you know, because I was wondering. Would anybody else try and convince somebody else to do it in there? I was a little surprised that Joe either didn't take it on himself or try and convince. Stephanie or Jonathan, somebody in their alliance to do it, or somebody, Aubrey, somebody completely like, I guess Aubrey was their backup, so that was kind of why they were chill about it. Yeah. But, you know, because the ultimate nightmare for that alliance is Devin's hits, which is what happened. Yeah, but Stephanie should have been the other one that threw herself into this, because if Devin's hit that, she's out.

1:46:28Bill Simmons:I don't care that you have your steal your vote thing. Guess what? Now you're going to lose... uh, eight to two instead of nine to one, you're losing. Steph, not a, not a wartime consulary figure. She put some things in motion, you know, throwing names out, throwing Ceres Alliance out. And then the second that leaks out is panicked. And every move after that was like increasing the panic. I mean, even to be lectured by Rizzo at Tribal, where Rizzo's like, just stand behind it. You said it or did you say it? You put out names. Survivor people throw out names. Say you threw out the name and just stand behind it.

1:47:09But she couldn't even do that. When Devin's put everybody's business masterfully, a masterstroke, to put everybody's laundry out on the table and say, this is what's been going on. She couldn't handle it.

1:47:20Bill Simmons:Right. So she got pulled in. There were three people. She was pulled in as the fourth. And then she moseyed on over to see if she could get the majority votes. and everybody this entire season has made the fatal mistake of trusting Sari at some point and being like, yeah, let me see if what Sari thinks. And then it's like, that's it. You've just fucked yourself immediately. It's like going to see Vito Corleone and the Godfather. Really? I have to say this, this is an all time, like Devin's episode. I, I, I came away thinking it's a shame that this is only his second time back. Yeah. And I hope I see him again and again, but Sari her ability to like ride out the early heat because of her status as a legend and then just kind of lay back in the cut and pull strings this is what the third time she's defended Ozzy somebody puts an alliance member's name in her ear and she just immediately swings into action how do they not know at this point here's an idea don't bring a possible Ozzy boat to Sari it's not going to work She's going to immediately slit your throat.

1:48:25Bill Simmons:It's done. This is, it's incredible. I mean, it truly is the work of a, of a, of a black widow type strategist because for it to be as obvious as it is to us and everybody, these are all historians of the game. They know what she's done in the game. Yeah. And for nobody to suspect her or to have a threat level equal to the other people who they're targeting is, it's incredible. It's amazing. She's the type of contestant that I've always hated in this game. The ones that just ride low under the radar. Nobody sees them. They're the most dangerous ones. They're never going to win a challenge. And they just get underrated over and over again.

1:49:07Bill Simmons:And meanwhile, she's been pulling the strings this whole season. She sees everything. She protects her alliance. Her alliance is somehow loyal to her. Nobody backstabs her, goes after her. Nobody ever says, you know who we should get out? Seri. She's the most dangerous person in the game. She's fucking Queen Cersei. Let's get her out. Well, I think the alliance thing is important, Bill, because that's what you need. The reason that people want to work with her is because if you are in that day one alliance with her, as Ozzy is, as Rizzo is, it's rock solid until the moment where real decisions have to be made.

1:49:41I mean, she's going to the mat again and again and again to defend people. now it's a the strategy behind it is wonderfully selfish she's always thinking like what are the layers to get to me if this person is out the next person is me like if Ozzy's gone they're looking at me next yeah period so I've got to protect these layers around me but the way she goes about it where nobody ever thinks let's get three out and the and Ozzy and her alliance to your point, it's certainly not on the horizon right now that they would betray her. Not right now.

1:50:19Bill Simmons:One of the keys to this game, it seems to be, is not to be the one that's starting the vote idea. You really want to be the one who it gets brought to you when there's like four or five in motion. And then you take that information and then use it against the people who came up with that idea. And that's the move. You never want to be the active voter outer. You want to be like the receptor to the vote. Right. You want to be you want to be like Agassi with a great return of serve. Totally. This is what Steph tried to argue at Tribal. But I think Devin's again, this guy, he's so chaotic, but so strategic about it, willing to take big risks.

1:51:01The thing I loved about his put everybody's business out there. Here's what Jonathan said. Here's what Stephanie said. Here's what I, he also said, and you know what? I threw Rizzo's name out because otherwise it's totally not credible. That's what makes what he said credible. Yeah. And they were scrambling after that. Um, Stephanie then tried to say, well, yeah, but I, but I, I, I didn't, I didn't start with the name, which is like, come on.

1:51:26Bill Simmons:Well, her move should have been, look, there were three people sitting on the beach. Right. They came to me and I, and I swear on my parents' lives that they brought up Ozzy's name. Like, that's always the move. If you know you have the truth behind you, you have to basically swear on somebody back home, which I think a lot of people are afraid to do. But that's what I would have done. I swear on my kids. I'm just having a nice little walk. I just peed in the ocean. Coming back in. That's it. My three friends are over there and they're like, hey, what if we voted out Ozzy? And I'm like, holy shit.

1:51:57Bill Simmons:Is that where we are in this game? And then I brought it up to two other people. I did not start this. It was those people right there. On my kids. On my kids, my parents, the New York Knicks. That's it. On my dog, Donna, on Jalen Brunson, Carl Anthony Towns, and the New York Knicks. All of them. Throw Josh Hart in there. I did not bring up Ozzie's name. I just think when you act panicked, Steph has the - It's over. Her, a weakness in her game, and it's always been a weakness in her game, is she can't lie with a straight face. Yeah. Sari kind of called it out. She begins getting shifty. She's looking all around.

1:52:36She's like...

1:52:37Bill Simmons:Yeah, Seri said she didn't make eye contact with me. You know. That's a tough one. And Seri, it's like that Hannibal Lecter thing when he ate the nurse and his blood pressure never came up. Right. She's like that. And if you are going to tussle with her, you've got to have that level of calmness about you. And Steph really didn't. And what's interesting to me is her alliance... were part of the unanimous vote to vote her out. So does that mean like the trust and honor alliance, the anti-lying alliance? We hate lying. We hate Rick Devins in his tricky ways. Does that mean it's like, it must be completely dead at this point, right?

1:53:17Bill Simmons:Well, that's the thing about, that's so interesting about Survivor is these, to watch the 50, where it's a lot of the best people that have played, they have the history of the game. They, in some cases, have relationships with each other and they know how to lie and cheat and steal and do all this stuff you do. But then you have this human element too that comes in when it's like, we have a letter from home. And then all of a sudden they're fucking jelly. And then meanwhile, in five seconds later, they're just these political animals trying to assassinate and crush each other. And then it's like, here's a letter from your dad.

1:53:50I haven't seen him for 15 days.

1:53:53Bill Simmons:I always get mad at this. I always say to my wife, because my wife always gets choked up during this because she gets choked up at stuff. And I'm like, I would never cry. I'm sorry. We'd probably end up like getting separated because you'd be upset that I didn't cry when I got my letter from you. I just wouldn't. It's not a long enough time. This is, I, this is exactly, I said the exact thing to my wife. I was like, if I was on survivor and they were still doing the family visit, I just be like, Hey, what's up? Game face. Like I'm, I'm, I'll see you when I get back. Hopefully with the million.

1:54:22Bill Simmons:The only thing that would have made me cry if it was a letter from Patriots coach, Mike Vrabel, Bill, some stuff happened. I just wanted to prepare you now for when you come back. Our season is now in shambles. That would have made me cry. That's about it. And no family member would have gotten to me. What did you, what do you make of, of Joe's hatred of Rick? I've absolutely loved the rivalries that have happened. Like the absolutely inexplicable Aubrey Genevieve beef, which I don't even understand where that came from. It just like they appeared on the beach together, walked away. And next thing you know, they absolutely hated each other.

1:55:04Yeah. Joe and Rick, I get. And the thing I like about it is it's like a styles makes fights type of situation where Rick really is.

1:55:12Bill Simmons:Yeah. A master manipulator, an oily guy like the fake idol hidden by the fire, all the plotting and thinking ahead. Whereas Joe is just like, you know, my word is bond. I'm going to be an honorable guy out here. I'm never going to tell a lie ever. And so that makes it very compelling. Yeah. But I'm also like frustrated by I'm like, why did you come on this game if you just never want to lie? Yeah. And does that make it less likely he gets voted out or more? If somebody is just completely honest at all times, does that make it more of an asset to just keep around until there's like five left? And then you can just read him, right?

1:55:50Bill Simmons:Yeah. Yeah. You can just read him down. You know that. OK, well, Joe is Joe's not going to cross his alliance. and I probably know where I stand with Joe. And if Joe catches me being tricky, he's going to come after me immediately. Yeah, I think you'd keep Joe around because of that. The challenge threat thing makes it, complicates it, but he's very readable. I think an NBA coach should try this in the playoffs. Here's our defensive strategy. And here's what we want to do on offense. Here's what we're going to do, guys. We shoot a lot of threes tonight. Jonathan is the one. There's these prototypes that always work on these shows.

1:56:26Bill Simmons:Jonathan as the big muscular guy. So then the theory is, well, he's dumb. I don't have to worry about him, but he's not dumb. He's been actually one of the smarter guys in the game. And I don't know if it's the editor, whether they're actually not seeing it, but he seems like it's really feels like him and Sarir are in the most control. And then Rick Devins as the wild card chaotic guy seem to have the most sway over the game right now, I would say. And then the other one is Rizzo, just because he's so happy to be there. such a fan of everybody, such a delight at all times. I could see him getting in the final three because people are just like, you know what?

1:57:03Bill Simmons:I like that guy. I could see that. I think the way the jury is stacking up right now, Rizzo would really have to argue the hell out of the thing if he gets there because there's a generational gap that's happening and I could see the jury being like, I don't want to hand this kid$2 million. What are you talking about? That said, I've really been impressed by his game this season, the self-awareness. The consistency of the happiness. He's just so honored to be there. And it feels real to me. I don't know. Can I just say, like... Why did Aubrey come on this game? She's picked it up lately. My least favorite.

1:57:47For like 70 % of the episodes thus far, she looked like she got called into work on her day off and that she's here now and she doesn't want to be here. She's like, every time they, even like every time they go to her, there's never, she doesn't seem gratified, never seems happy about anything that's going on, is like kind of gritting her teeth through it. You actually saw her at one point, like really like tense her jaw in this episode. It's a very strange contrast. And to your point about Jonathan, he is showing the strategic side that it was unclear that he had his first time through. Like he saw that Ozzy and Sury are close.

1:58:28Like he called that out. And I think that was good targeting by him.

1:58:31Bill Simmons:Yeah. And he, he's spotted a couple of these people. Yeah. They, they don't really know what to do with Aubrey as a character to your point. So the, when she's doing the auction, I don't know what the auction dollars were this year, but it just seems like everybody could buy everything. And she got the Mac and cheese and she's like, this makes me think of my kids and starts getting choked up. And you can see the producers like, finally, we got something close in on her eating the Mac and cheese. She might cry. What do you think would have happened if everybody would have spent their money? And here comes Mr.

1:59:04Beast and nobody has money to bid on the like, would they just be, hey, sorry. Jimmy, Mr. Beast, everybody spent their money on grub worms and chocolate chip cookies. And so you got to fly back.

1:59:17Bill Simmons:What was the move? What if he had had like, here's my offer. It's two straight weeks of immunity. Highest bidder wins. So nobody had money left because they were buying like chocolate chip cookies. Yeah. I, I didn't understand really. First of all, did they have$500? Like, I don't even know if Jeff, Jeff never said what the number was. And then the move is just go in immediately on food. But my wife and I always talk about like, don't like, don't get the milkshake. You're just going to be shitting your brains out in the woods for like five days. You're going to feel good for 20 minutes. And then you're going to feel terrible for the rest of the time.

1:59:53You might as well buy cocaine.

1:59:55Bill Simmons:Yeah, chocolate chip cookies is another one. I'll do the heroin and the cocaine, Jeff. Right. Sounds great. The cake. Right. The charcuterie board was actually like a decent idea. Yeah, cake, terrible. Charcuterie board, you get meat, cheese, some bread. Like, I can sustain that. But cake? Cake is crazy. That's like 10 ,000 calories of pure sugar. You're going to eat that after eating rice for two weeks? It's crazy. Although Sari did throw up. but remember they used to give they used to do beers i remember like rupert at one point they gave him like eight nine ten beers which is right yeah that's crazy not a great idea the other highlight of the auction was uh jeff caught a whiff of sari and jeff is always coming in like from his like fancy glamping camp so the odors of everybody really must be he must be like wow get a little strong in here um sorry so we have nine left we have devins ozzy big jonathan joe are the men seri aubrey emily who is my other least favorite i just every week hoping she gets voted out no no no real reason just kind of ready for her to go you don't like the way she just gives up everybody's secrets yeah as soon as they tell her and she's got like that shifty she she's like in Dead Poets Society, she's the guy who you know is going to turn on Nwanda.

2:01:18Bill Simmons:Tiffany. Tiffany and, oh, Rizzo's the other guy too. Tiffany, I think, has had a strong comeback. I agree. But we have to do an MVP ballot with nine people left. To me, clearly, on my ballot, number one, I don't think there's the same kind of controversy of SGA versus Wembley versus Joker. I think this is more like a LeBron James 2009 type season. Devins has been out of his mind. I think he has to be MVP. The fake idol, the fact that he pulled that off and then didn't tell anyone for two more episodes and then just casually just to fuck with Joe. Yeah, I made that up. Look, it's nothing. And then how eager he was to grab the coin flip, him interacting with Mr.

2:02:06Bill Simmons:Beast, the whole thing. I think he has to be MVP so far. um i'm gonna pitch a haircut on that okay my mvp is the devins joe rivalry i just oh it's it's so exciting right it's like almost it's almost magic bird it's almost that kind of thing because it's again it's two different approaches to the game one is out there risk crazy chaos plotting. The other one is like rock solid. My word is bond. You can trust me. Yeah. I'm going to leave here and live my life the same way I lived my life in the game. That's who I am. And it's it's just so compelling to me. Every it just the hatred like oozes out of them.

2:02:54Whenever one of them is speaking, especially Rick, whenever Devins is saying stuff and they cut to Joe, Joe looks like he wants to set Rick on fire. And I love it. It's so good.

2:03:07Bill Simmons:All right. My number two MVP is Sari. Yeah. Who I just don't understand how she has this much power. I think she sat out at least four challenges. Probably more. She just, everybody is completely indebted to her, afraid of her and sucking up to her at all times. It's unclear why. Every time somebody crosses anybody she likes, It's immediately over for them. And it's like watching, I don't know, like a high school class president who actually knows how to work the class and get all the shit they want and make themselves prom queen. And I don't know how she's doing it. Yeah, to me, it's like, imagine...

2:03:49It's like if Asara Thompson had a jumper. Imagine if she was a physical threat. Right. You know what I mean? Like, forget it.

2:03:59Bill Simmons:Yeah. forget it. The fact that she is doing this with no physical ability, what's, nobody's sweating her in a challenge ever. And they would really have to rig it. Right. Like in Joe's first season, I'll just say, it was very notable that we never saw a puzzle with Joe until the end. They let him go on a run of five, six challenges. No. And then finally got a puzzle and it was like, huh? Yeah. And very clearly playing to his strengths. They'd have to rig it with her. But man, if she had that part of her game, I completely agree with you. She is my second. Also, she is just pulling the strings and nobody's looking at her.

2:04:38Bill Simmons:Well, I wonder if she did have that part of the game, she'd be more obvious as a threat. It's almost like part of what makes her a threat is she's lying there under the radar. And if you'd be like, well, she'll never win a challenge. Well, there's a window, right? Because if she can survive the first two episodes, then she's going to lay in the cut because the first thing you do when you get to the island and you go, let's get her because if she sticks around she's too dangerous and if she survives that part of it and she always does she's going to be there but that's what I don't understand about this season what you just said they did to Mike White they were like, we got to get him out he's too manipulative he has these special powers, let's dump him Cerise, this is the fifth time she's been on the show We know what this is now.

2:05:30Bill Simmons:This is, you know, she's like an NBA star who's had five all-NBAs already. Like, we know what this is. And they're completely dumbfounded by this. Maybe Mike's big error was the fact that he came and shredded. Like, he had been to Barry's bootcamp and has been taking HGH or whatever it was. And it's like, now you're like, oh God, he's got that. He's got the skill. He's got the tools and he's in shape. Let's get him out of here. my number three MVP is Rizzo. I think he's a great proxy for the fans and people who really love this show and love all the twists. And, you know, one of the big gimmicks with this year is the fans have been able to decide some stuff, which, honestly, Adam Silver's got to really think about for NBA.

2:06:16Bill Simmons:Like the 2026-27 season, the fans decide, oh, this year, the one seed now has a 223 home court advantage. And we just add, the fans just get to run one season. I think would be the smartest thing the NBA ever did. I would agree with you, but I'm going to pitch a haircut on that. I'm going to go with my third MVP is Jeff Probst. Oh. I agree with you with Rizzo. He's the prototype of the type of contestant and type of fan base that Jeff has been openly courting for years now. He's always saying, are you 16 and 17 years old? you love Survivor 8, why don't you try out? Send us a postcard, send us your tape, and we'll get you on.

2:07:01But it's the thing you said, his willingness to be like, okay, what's working, what's not working? What can we try? What are the super fans of this? What are the people who love this show want to see? And how can I work that in? I think that's really smart. How about Jeff Probst for Commissioner of the NBA? I'd love to see it.

2:07:21Bill Simmons:I don't think anyone, and I always feel like they're VO editing him after, and then they're really not. Cause when they're doing these challenges and stuff, he's always in real time doing play by play. Like he's like Mike Breen. So my wife, she was, uh, she Jeff Probst lives in, I guess somewhere in LA, but he belongs to the same tennis club as my wife. And, uh, and my wife was pulling out of a parking space and Jeff Probst was waiting for her to pull out. So, so he could pull in the parking space and she could see him. And so she told me, I was like, Jeff Probst was pulling in the pub. So I was like, was Jeff narrated in the parking space and going and carries pulling out of the parking space and here's Jeff pulling into the parking space and he's done it in two turns.

2:08:07Like this, he does it in two turns. Don't give up now, Corey. Can you make the turn in one turn? Can you do it? And she's going to the overhead camera now. And now she's looking back in the bearer. Here he is. He is

2:08:18Bill Simmons:pulled in and now he's turning off his car. Does he just practice this all day? How does he do it? Or does he just turn it on when he's on an island? It's muscle memory by now, right? I mean, you're talking 20 plus years of him doing this. Yeah, I think that's a really good third MVP choice. Well, what a season. Who's going to win in your opinion?

2:08:41I would if I had to bet I would like to see Rick Devin's win. I would like to see Rick Devin's or Sari win, but I think Devin's in this order, Devin's Sari long shot because of the, of the, uh, challenge nature of the, of the competitions to come. And then Rizzo third with his negative being, I think he's really going to have to pitch it to the jury, but those three I'd like to, I think could do it.

2:09:07Bill Simmons:I think Devin's finally gets voted out because the other guys and ladies are going to realize he's done too many great things this season and he's going to win if he gets to a jury. But I think he wins with that people's choice vote that they're the way they win the extra money for best contestant of the year. Like sometimes they'll do that. They have like the five hundred thousand dollar prize for. Right. There's there's there was a price. Sia, the pop star Sia used to give money to whoever she liked. I'm not sure she's doing that anymore, which made me worry about. This is Mr. Beast comes back.

2:09:44Bill Simmons:He loves giving money to people. Yeah, but Mr. Beast is flowing in money. Yeah. So why doesn't he should pick up the slack there? So I think he wins that, but I don't think he makes the final three. I think it's going to be Sari. Okay. I think it's going to be Rizzo. And I think it's going to be Tiffany. Interesting. Because I think they have the game and everybody else figured out the best. And Tiffany can win some of these challenges and hang around. And I think the guys are all going to turn on each other, would be my guess. I think if it's Sari, Jeff will break down in tears because he is, it's been very notable the last few times she's been on the show.

2:10:23She very famously got voted out because of a crazy idol play that boomeranged on her by her allies. And when that has happened, this guy, he loves a Hall of Fame legend and he gives her like a send off. If she wins it, Ben, I mean, it's going to be, it's like Dirk 2011 or something. Like it's just one of the greatest runs we've ever seen.

2:10:51Bill Simmons:Just having a great season. I'm just glad coach is out. That one. You don't like coach? I don't. I really don't. If I was on the island with coach, I would just be like, we got to get this guy out. He's driving me crazy. What is it? The haikus? Is it the Tai Chi? What specifically? what's more annoying like honestly he's in that seagull van damme kind of area territory of self parody like he's the last one who doesn't realize it um yeah so i think i tiffany has been impressive and i think with the edit they're setting them up and i think the next step here is for the guys to start taking each other out devins it's coming soon joe versus jonathan and maybe rizzo's the only one that survives.

2:11:36Bill Simmons:Um, but they can also have control over this with some of the challenges. If they have like, you know, when they, when they really want to get rid of some of the guys or potentially have the guys, they'll do like the stand on a pole and your feet can barely fit on it. And they do that one. Like there's a couple of ones they can do to rig it a little bit. As I said, if they want to get Joe out, they could do it anytime with some sort of puzzle that involves spelling. He'll be gone. And much respect to Joe. He seems like a very nice guy. Yeah. If it comes to spelling, he is out. All right. I can't wait.

2:12:13Bill Simmons:So your pick is... You're going Devins. I'm going to go Devins. I think it's going to be choppy waters in this very next episode. But I think if he survives it, very dangerous guy. Legendary performance by him. What a... Just an all-timer. Wait a second. in your new podcast with The Ringer, which has been excellent. You covered the White House dinner and the concept of assassination attempts immediately delving into conspiracies with our own Brian Curtis, the most journalistic guy we have at The Ringer. So this is a good podcast. I can't wait to listen to it. Yeah, check it out. What does it mean for our current reality that so many people are so willing to accept that certain things like the most recent event at the White House Correspondents Dinner was potentially staged.

2:13:08We talk about that with Curtis. He was fantastic on it. Check it out.

2:13:12Bill Simmons:What's my next one going to be for my next Zodiac Killer? I've got the research packet. I'm compiling it week after week. We're just waiting for the moment to drop it. Maybe in July when some of the anniversaries of the murders comes up or sometime this summer. I can't wait. We might have to do it there in the middle of a Nick Celtics playoff series if that's how it plays out as part of the healing process for us. Yes. I'm ready. Zodiac. Be there. All right. Good to see you. Thank you. Good to see you. All right. That's it for the pod. Thanks to Mahoney and Jason and the Duke, Billy Gill. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well.

2:13:48Bill Simmons:New Rewatchables coming for you on Monday. We did There's Something About Mary to kick off Comedy Month on the Rewatchables. Netflix is a joke as well. You can find all the movies that we're gonna do in May. They're on Netflix as well, starting on May 1st for a lot of them. I'm gonna be back on Sunday with Zach Lowe after whenever the latest Sunday playoff game is. I assume we're probably gonna get a game seven on Sunday, but we will see. Have a great weekend. Happy birthday to my daughter. And I will see you on a Sunday night.

2:14:24Bill Simmons:Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gain problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867.