LeBron’s Philly Shocker! Plus, the 2011 NBA Redraftables With Zach Lowe.

24:29Bill Simmons:So Rich said something about if you paid attention, all the clues, he said something like that last week. If you paid attention, all the clues were laid out for what, for what the decision was going to be, which I, which you could have interpreted in all of these different ways. But now looking back, you mentioned Myers went on that podcast, right? That's, that's pretty interesting. he wanted to win and also be happy. What were the other clues we can take from that they laid out? What are we talking about here? Is the whiteboard like usual suspects? Does it say like Skokie, Illinois on there somewhere?

25:09Bill Simmons:What did we miss? Am I going to drop the coffee cup on the floor? Am I going to drop the coffee cup on the floor? Like, what's on the bottom? It was Kobayashi. i wonder what the other clues were i'd love to know what i missed i i guess i gotta go spend some time i here look i can call all the gms and agents involved in the next four hours or i could spend time deconstructing the whiteboard and like listening for you know how steve kerr did you read the story that uh steve kerr like dropped an entire taylor swift song into press conferences this year like one word at a time so maybe we need to maybe we need to go back and listen to some podcasts and see if we can hear a clue all put together.

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27:02Bill Simmons:It's a new day and a new stay. Book now at HolidayInn.com. something. Well, so LeBron has the 12 year old daughter who's lived here his whole, her whole life. So I like, are they going to, is this family going to move or is he going to be like going back and forth that that's, are they going to live in New York or who knows? That's going to be a whole thing. And then, then him and Jalen Brown is another piece of this. Jalen Brown, the famous thing about him sitting at summer league and basically saying, you know, Bronnie's not good or whatever. He wasn't fair because it was the cameras catching him.

27:37Bill Simmons:And then LeBron kind of made mention of it last year, but I assume Bronny is going to end up on the Sixers. I was going to say, how did we get 20 minutes into this without answering the, what about Bronny question? Um, I just assume he's, he's probably on his way because they, the Lakers have 16 guys anyway. Um, geometry wise, I give you Embiid, LeBron, Jalen, Maxine, Edgecombe. as a closing five. There's three minutes left in a playoff game. Walk me through a play and where everybody is in the court. I mean, Embiid is setting a high screen or at the nail probably. And it's a two-man game with, I mean, again, like I don't really know.

28:21It's a two-man game maybe with LeBron so that I can use Maxi in some off-ball stuff with Jalen Brown and throw some size issues at the other team. Like they'll have a little guy on Maxi maybe we can get a switch that way but it's there it's gonna be so vj's in the corner regardless vj's probably in the corner or setting some off ball stuff if nick nurse is getting

28:43Bill Simmons:creative and when it gets down to jalen's spending some time in the corner yeah i mean lebron and maxi kind of switching playing off and bead and then if it beads not out there you could even go a little small ball with uh lebron and or bona like whatever but yeah the geometry there's gonna be two guys in the corner that are gonna be like shit i'm in the corner i wonder if when on days mb doesn't play if there is some potential for like lebron at the five kind of lineups they're they're built to try that out it's always those always sound better in theory than they are in reality the other thing is like you know joel and bead had back-to-back seasons when he shot 37 on threes and one and two years ago when he shot 39 in limited games if that now that's all sandwiched around 33 30 33 and no one's ever going to treat him like a defcon one threat out there but if he can find that stroke again you have a little bit more flexibility and where you can put him it doesn't have to be at the nail it doesn't have to be we're running through stuff through it but what happens to his post-op game to me is a really interesting question here like how often are you just dumping the ball into and bead when these other four guys are on the floor?

29:56Does it make sense to play that way? Sometimes it will, but sometimes it won't.

30:00Bill Simmons:And if, and if you're talking to Vijay Edgecombe about this, you're like, dude, just practice your corner threes. Just take a hundred million of them, take 200 ,000 a day. And this is going to be a two-year thing. You're going to be a better place for this. You're going to be in big games. Um, and it'll all pay off in the long run, but he's probably the biggest loser from a growth standpoint, because he just, he basically just turns into a three and D guard now, I think. Well, I think he's also so good that he'll find ways to Matt, to stretch that three and D role in the half court to its boundaries.

30:37LeBron with the Lakers and particularly with Luca leaned a little bit more into transition fast. Remember LeBron was known as a slow it down chess master kind of player. Jalen Brown is a demon in transition, particularly as a cutter. off the ball. He wants to play that way. Everybody but Embiid in that starting five is meant to play fast, like super fast. And I think that's okay for Embiid. He can trail the play and whatever. And that's where Vijay can run into eight points a game. I mean, just like that. So I think there's something to be said there too.

31:10Bill Simmons:You know what else is going to be really fun? I think this is going to be a really fun team to watch. And this is immediately the team I have to monitor the first two months team of all of the 30 teams we have that are different than they were last year. But Vijay is so good at both like crashing the offensive boards when somebody else shoots, but then also those little sneaky back cuts he does from the side. And LeBron loves guys like that. So that'll be, that'll be, I think LeBron's going to love playing with him. And I, you know, him and Maxie, I think they've known each other for a long time and they have the Rich Paul connection.

31:43Bill Simmons:Uh, and bead will be the wild card. You know, we didn't mention though, this is unbelievable for the Boston Philly rivalry. the best rivalry in the league, the most important rivalry the league's ever had. Everybody says Celtics-Lakers. I've said this a million times. Celtics-Sixers is the most historic, awesome rivalry the league has. They've crossed paths every decade in some way. Some more than others, like the 60s more than the 70s and shit like that. But every year they've had battles and they had some battles this decade. But now you have, the Celtics have traded Jalen Brown to Philly. You have LeBron, who was their biggest foil from, I don't know, 2008 through 2013, where they were the big bully with him and then he flipped it and he was the big bully with them.

32:29Bill Simmons:He doesn't like Boston. That's been his rival and the team that really tried to break him down. And now he's going against them. And these are two fan bases that have gone at it. Philly beat them last year and came back. I feel like all of these games will be on national TV, right? Oh, well, I mean, Adam Silver made that pretty clear when he was like, hey, man, can you make a decision? Yeah. Yeah, Philly-Boston, all-time classic rivalry. How about LeBron being back in the East and the state of all the teams involved puts, like, LeBron could face the Cavs in a playoff series. LeBron could face the Heat in a playoff series.

33:05Toronto, the team that he owns.

33:07Bill Simmons:Is he still paying rent on Toronto or no? No, he owns Toronto. He doesn't have any rent. Yeah, he's paid out. Yeah, so you have Miami, Cleveland, Toronto. We didn't mention the Knicks. I mean, Boston.

33:26East is on a heater like we have not seen in the last 25 years in the NBA. It's the superior conference, top to bottom right now. Even if you want to say the two best teams are in the West, it's the top to bottom better conference. And we've got a lot of trade drama. We've got players moving east. We've got Kawhi probably moving east. LeBron moving east. The east is on fire.

33:49Bill Simmons:I like how you said probably. Yeah, if you go to the finals odds on FanDuel, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. Eight of the 12 are in the east for the highest odds. When was the last time that happened? And we didn't mention the Pacers, who are 40 to 1 to win the finals. and I think could be pretty sneaky as well with Zubats there and a healthy Halbert and they added Oubre and all this stuff. Knicks Sixers, what's going to be a better rivalry? Knicks Sixers or Celtics Sixers this season? Oh, it's Celtics. The Jalen Brown stuff in Boston is going to be off the charts. The atmosphere, the Brown versus Tatum, the first time they go one-on-one against each other, if Tatum's ever under the rim when Brown is like winding up for a dunk, like that that stuff's going to be irresistible there's so much tension but nick sixers will be pretty great too though it'll be yeah lebron in the garden nick sixers they've had recent playoff history they had a really great series two seasons ago um and uh yeah i mean those are all great robin these are these we have all or most of the iconic franchises in the eastern conference other than the bulls are really like going all out for it right now and that's like pretty incredible.

35:05So I thought of one other clue.

35:09Bill Simmons:Ruben has, you know, LeBron did the Fanatics Fest stuff and Ruben has the Sixers connection. So maybe that was another clue. So, okay. Ring chasing. This isn't a ring chase because he signed as a free agent with the team that wanted him, but he could win another ring with this team. Do you think he will? uh i would i would always go no i mean you're basically asking field versus sixers i'm going field like aggressively given mb's health issues but it's it's it's of all the options out there short of a like lebron signs with oklahoma city for the minimum this is about as good as it gets but no i don't i would bet against them winning a title yeah because the the bar would be oklahoma city and san antonio the next two years now san antonio if they have Embiid.

35:56Bill Simmons:It's one of the few teams where they can throw a guy with size at Wemby and at least make them think a little bit. And then OKC is just a nightmare to play against. But OKC is weaker now. You know, they had to get rid of some depth. They're relying on rookies that, you know, in second year guys, the rookies did not look good in the summer league. We'll see. I really, you and I went to those Indiana games two years ago when Lou Dort and Caruso basically swung that series. Lou Dort's gone. Lou Dort's only 27. It's not like he's 40, you know, and they're a little smaller. They're gonna be a little smaller on the perimeter.

36:30Bill Simmons:And this, this Philly team, when everybody's playing it, like the size is a bitch. Like Jalen's a big ass, small forward who can go at basically every position, right. And scored 29 points a game last year. LeBron can be an absolute bitch to garden and bead can overpower anybody. So there's going to be nights where, I don't know. I like it. I think this was a smart move. I, I, I thought it was no chance of happening. I made fun of House the other day. There's no way he's going to go to Philly. That's ridiculous. Why would he do that? I get it. I get it from a basketball standpoint. This is a smart move.

37:03Bill Simmons:It's interesting. I sent this with Howard on my iPod a couple weeks ago because he was of the ilk of like, like when Wendy said on TV, the vibes would feel funny if he went to Philadelphia, awkward, whatever he used. Howard was on that side of things. And I said, honestly, I think it would be kind of cool because whatever you want to say about LeBron, step by step by step in his career, he has not adhered to any sort of traditional superstar career track. He's chosen his own path for his own reasons. Like Miami was a shock. Leaving Cleveland the way he did with the decision was a shock. Going back to Cleveland was kind of a bold mid-career move, leaving Bosh and Wade.

37:42Going to the Lakers because he just felt like, you know, yeah, he probably thought I can get Anthony Davis to come here. we can revive this iconic franchise that's fallen on hard times when he just really wanted to live in Los Angeles and play for the Lakers and I think this sort of going to a team that feels random to his history to his trajectory is actually kind of in step with the way he's handled his career and I think he just he like when you were saying maybe he'll just sign in December January I just think he loves being on a team I think he likes getting to the arena early I think he likes being around teammates and i think he just looks at this and is like this will be fun like whatever whatever comes of this this is an interesting group of players in a big sports city this will

38:24Bill Simmons:be fun let's give it a go also the new york city piece of this can't be underrated he can live in new york city if he wants right i i mean it's i i think other sixers have done that in the past yeah but he could have like his family could be in new york city and he could have a place in philly and bounce back and forth so he keeps the big city thing we'll see if he moves this whole family there. Listen, this is the, this, I think out of all the options, golden state would have been really fun from a, from the expendable standpoint and just having those guys playing together. But this was the most fun basketball option.

38:59Bill Simmons:The more we talk about it. I just think this has the most variables every which way, including like there's 2012 Lakers potential too, where this looks awesome on paper and there are all these reasons for it, but you have LeBron who's 41, who with a ton of miles on him, God only knows when he's going to break down someday. And Embiid, who never plays, and Jalen Brown on a new team trying to fit his way. Like, there's some, there's an unhappy version of this too. And I don't know which one I would bet on, to be honest. I mean, look, there was an unhappy version of the Knicks in January and they won the championship.

39:38I would say February. How about April? These things are not easy to do when you're juggling a bunch of guys who are stars or think they're stars or whatever the thing is. And it's always challenging and you always have to find the right style of play and everyone's got to sacrifice. Like your point about Edgecombe. If I'm Nick Nurse, I'm going to Vijay and saying, hey, look, man, you're a second-year player. You're going to walk in, hopefully, to 18 points a game. Strong, solid number for a second-year guard on a loaded team. This could be a lot of nights when Embiid doesn't play or when LeBron doesn't play.

40:09Those are nights you can go for 25, 28, whatever you explode for. And by the way, being on national TV all the time and being part of a winning team is good for everybody, including you. So just enjoy it. This isn't your permanent lot in life and go from there. That's just the. But yeah, I mean, look, it all comes down to Embiid, right? The whole thing comes down to Embiid, because I think if he's if he's not healthy in the playoffs, I don't think this foursome plus what they have on the team is good enough to win a championship. if he by whatever miracle is healthy for enough of the playoffs this team can go toe-to-toe with anybody i just don't believe that he can be healthy for four straight playoff series i just don't i won't believe it until i see it happen he still has not made the conference finals

40:54Bill Simmons:would you rather have him bead for the team that the sixers have now or a gaffer pj washington clay thompson threesome oh my god it's i mean the fact that that's a fair question is just such a sad state of affairs given i still i just want to beat i want to beat both i just look i get the i get the argument i get what you're saying depth pieces clay just bring clay in as part of this too like another all-time legend um let me get i want to go down swinging one more time with him beat you know Philly the whole history I agree with you I have two LeBron years and we'll see how he looks by near the end of the second year but at least for this year with the roster and the depth this is the best possible situation for Embiid where it's like we're just going to be super careful with you this is you'll be like the vase in risky business we'll be carrying like this the entire season not putting any miles on you at all, just trying to get you to April, May, and June.

41:57Bill Simmons:And even in the playoffs, I remember Chris Ryan when they went to round two, and Chris Ryan's like, I would bench him B tonight against the Knicks. I'd bench him for game one, throw it away. And they ended up playing him, and he just broke down as it went along. They could be in situations where he just plays five of the seven games, and they look and they like, hey, LeBron and Jalen, you're carrying us tonight, and do it that way. It's possible. It's possible. I mean, we mentioned it earlier. It's possible. The East is going to be tough, but they at least have enough superstar ball dominance cover or pseudo cover for him that if you go up 2-0, maybe you can take that kind of risk.

42:33Bill Simmons:I'm stunned for the Cavs. And I just don't think they could figure out how to pull it off. I still feel like that's where this was going to end up. I'm always going to feel that way. But they couldn't trade the dudes. And it all goes back to that weird DeAndre Hunter contract that they did. that weird extension they did with him that they then had to turn into Schroeder and that was the extra 14, 15 million. On the Lakers side, just quickly, if they had managed the LeBron piece of that a little better and somehow been able to keep LeBron there with Luka Kessler and Reeves plus patching together Fridge and stuff, I don't like that team as much as this Philly team.

43:16The Lakers with LeBron? Yeah. And Kessler and Luka and Reeves. I'd have to think harder about it. It feels almost like a wash to me again, because I just can't, I can't factor in. I mean, I guess Kessler's as much an injury risk as Embiid, although it's been a recurring shoulder thing more than anything else. But yeah, I'd have to think more about it.

43:35Bill Simmons:All right. Those are all my preliminary thoughts. You're going to do a podcast on Sunday with some deeper dive thoughts and I'll, I'll do something middle of the week next week. I want to marinate on this and think about this. But I will tell you this. It's a good marinator. The NBA is more fun today. This was an incredibly fun outcome. There's robberies galore. LeBron's back in the East. And we'll see. I would say, who would you say has the most at stake with this that's not LeBron? Would you say Embiid? Like, this is it. Will Embiid ever be on a better team than this? We're focusing on Philly only, most at stake?

44:14Yeah, it's Embiid. It's got to be Embiid, right?

44:16Bill Simmons:Everybody else, Jalen's won a title. Maxie has his whole career out of him. So does Vijay. Nick Nurse has won a title. This is like, hey, Embiid, this is on a platter now. You have somebody who was sixth MVP last year on your team. You have a franchise guy. You have LeBron. You hit the lottery with Vijay. And let's be fair to Embiid when we bring up the health stuff. A lot of the playoff injuries have been really fluky injuries. Pascal Siakam, elbows in the orbital bone at the end of a game that's probably over. Bell's palsy strikes him and all this but the knee stuff highlighted by when Kaminga fell on his knee two seasons ago that's becoming the scary recurring thing that he just can't seem to shake for any prolonged period of time and you can see when he comes back he's like almost playing with a certain trepidation about it that he has to get past that every time he comes back so that's just the fair dossier of like Joel Embiid and barring some sort of transaction where they get a really another high quality center i think they're going to need him to to get where they need to go and so it's it feels unfair to be like the precious andrew elin bead your playoff legacy when a lot of his playoff legacy is he just gets hurt and i don't know what there's what what that what there's to be done about that i don't think either of us thought lebron could win a title if he was one of the two best players on a team at this stage of his career right yeah i mean he's too it's it's he's 41 years old.

45:39Bill Simmons:He'd have to be the third best player. In this case, he's drifting between three and four. Best possible situation. Biggest loser today, Daryl Morey. He just held on for two more months. That's a tough one. He would have done the Jalen Brown trade and then ended up with LeBron and been like, this was his dream of putting a whole bunch of stars in the same team. I got a big... And I would say Golden State too would be the other one because they got out of that Draymond deal. They did nothing. They were just basically paused the entire summer. And now I think they have 10 players in their roster, including Jimmy Butler, who can't run yet.

46:17Yeah, I'm checking my phone here because I keep thinking we're going to get the flurry of like Harden re-signs, Draymond re-signs, all these other deals, but nothing has come out. I also just think like, not that he was ever going to go there or really even entertain it, but Jokic in Denver just sort of sitting there in stasis while all of this happens around them and maybe Peyton Watson comes back and that's their big sort of move so far. But, you know, it feels like afterthought is too strong of a word, but they've got some catching up to do. Might have missed the window. Yeah, to salvage the old good show.

46:52Bill Simmons:Or the window may have closed. They got one title out of it. I don't, the Peyton Watson, any scenario where he's making more than$15 million a year does not really pass the sniff test for me. Just with the way the middle class numbers are, I just don't understand who's giving him 20. So you're saying Peyton Watson deserves Gary Trent Jr. money is what you're saying. We're going to take a break. Zach's going to do way more LeBron stuff on Sunday. We're going to come back to the 2011 draft rewatchables. The 2011 redraftables. Ironically, 2011 was right after LeBron lost in the finals with Miami to Dirk.

47:33Bill Simmons:We had a lockout looming in July. We had no owner for the New Orleans Pelicans. We had the first month of Greatland, a great website that you eventually worked for. I did. And we had Cleveland with the first pick after mysteriously winning the lottery thanks to a Clippers-Baron-Davis dump trade a year after they lost LeBron to Miami. Conspiracy Bill has always been very focused on that lottery. This turned out to be the Kawhi, Kyrie, Klay, Jimmy Butler draft. We did not know this at the time. What we did know, we had a first round that had two Lithuanian guys, a Turkish guy, a Congolese guy, a Serbian guy, a Czech guy, a Latvian guy, a Canadian guy, and a Croatian guy.

48:17Bill Simmons:We had five top 10 picks in a row named Ennis, Tristan, Jonas, Jan, and Bismack. We had Charlotte with the seventh and ninth picks and somehow they didn't end up with Klay Thompson or Kawhi Leonard. We had a huge trade in the middle of the draft, Kawhi Leonard getting taken by Indiana and then traded for George Hill from San Antonio, which had dramatic effects on the 13 and 14 playoffs and led to one of your best Grantland pieces ever. And then I wrote my draft diary at the end. I have a feeling we'll remember the 2011 draft as the foreigner draft. That was the takeaway. um now looking back this is a 10 out of 10 batshit crazy draft with where guys went it's a 10 it's just a 10 with the four best guys the draft went first 11th 15th and 30th it's also a draft it's very close to my heart because as you said it sort of dovetails with me transitioning into full-time nba media this would have been my second year i think full-time but it's like these are guys where it's like i've written about a lot of them over the years i feel like i've like they're like my my cohort almost so i have a soft spot for a lot of these guys all right i'll give you the first pick go uh this was easier than i thought i'm gonna take kawaii leonard and i'm not really gonna think about it too hard despite the injuries the drama the aspiration scandal all of it um and and the thing about you know you mentioned the top four guys and you nailed them they're gonna go top four in some order they've all had enough health issues that you know they've all scored kawaii has the fewest career points at 16 500 but kairi who's number one is 18 400 so there's not that much of a difference in terms of just sort of the raw scoring and kawaii's got seven all nba appearances is the only one of this four that has any first team all nba appearances two championships two finals mvps the best two-way player by a decent margin um and was the best player alive at the end of 2019 yeah yeah i i think i think it's a pretty easy choice that I'll take away.

50:20Bill Simmons:I had him number one as well. Also defensive player of the year twice. Runner-up MVP in 2016. Three-year peak of 26-7-4. Four-year playoff peak of 29-9-5. Over 60 games. Best player on the 2019 Champs Finals MVP in 2014. What's interesting about this draft, if we had done this even after 2017, maybe 15, we would have said Kyrie was the number one pick. Right? I think so. Yeah, I don't even know who else it would be. I wrote this big piece. I wrote this huge piece for Grant Lynn in 2014 about what a crapshoot the draft was. I reread it in preparation for this. Yeah, I did 20 years of drafts about, and I redrafted basically all of this.

51:11Bill Simmons:And I did the 2011 draft. So I did it three years later. And I had Kawhi first, which I was surprised by. I had Kyrie Irving second. I had Clay third. And I had Chandler Parsons fourth and Kenneth Farid fifth. Jimmy Butler was 11th on this list. So that goes to show you how much all this stuff can change. We should have mentioned before you made the first pick, we should at least do the lottery for this draft, right? Because we had, just so people remember it if they don't remember it when it happened. Kyrie went first. Minnesota took Derek Williams second. Can't wait to talk about him later. Ennis Cantor went third to Utah.

51:52Bill Simmons:Now Ennis Freedom. Thompson to Cleveland at four. Valen Schoeness to Toronto at five. Jan Vesely at six, who won the draft because he had the hottest looking girlfriend probably in the history of the draft. It was a big part of my draft diary. Bisbach Biambo seventh, ends up in Charlotte. Brandon Knight eighth to Detroit. Kemba Walker ninth in Charlotte. Jimmer Fredette, did you ever buy Jimmer for that stock? Did you ever call your broker on him or no? Okay. No, he had no stock. He went 10th, ended up in Sacramento, who did not have Vivek yet. That was still the Maloofs. You're telling me Sacramento messed up the draft?

52:28Yeah, I'm telling you that. That's a draft day trade, by the way, and an extremely depressing one.

52:33Bill Simmons:Really one of the most depressing three-team draft day trades we've ever had. It was Sacramento, Milwaukee, and I think Charlotte. Clay Thompson, 11th Golden State. Berks, 12th to Utah. We had the Morris twins go back to back, Marquise to Phoenix, Marcus to Houston, and then Indiana takes Kawhi Leonard 15th. And in my draft diary, which I had some huge wins and some huge misses. After Burks went 12th, I wrote, how has Kawhi Leonard not been taken yet? What am I missing? The Morris twins went 13 and 14. I wrote, San Diego's Kawhi Leonard is officially our how the hell did he slide to the middle of the draft guy?

53:14Bill Simmons:which doesn't happen every year, but when it happens, and I put in parentheses, Granger, Luss, and Hibbert, you know as it's happening, he should have been a lottery pick. He's a natural small forward. So I had that right. I did not have the first pick of the draft right, which I will go second here, and I'm going to take Kyrie Irving. I was a big, this is one of my biggest draft misses of the last 20 plus years. I was in the, let's take Derek Williams here camp for Cleveland. Derek Williams had come off a really good Arizona season and just seemed like a natural stretch four. He shot 59 % from three in college his sophomore year.

53:53That's a real stat, 59 %?

53:55Bill Simmons:Yeah, 59%. He made 1.1 and took 1.9 overall, made 1.1. And just seemed like, and was really good in Arizona. And Kyrie, I think, had played 10 Duke games and gotten hurt. But Cleveland took Kyrie and I said, I see him settling somewhere between an extremely poor man's Chris Paul and a rich man's Mike Conley, will he ever make an all-star team? It's possible. Maybe one or two. Big miss. Tough one. I think, Kyrie, I was interested. I had a feeling you were going to give me the number one pick. And I knew who I was going to take without doing much research about it. By the way, that Kawhi trade, it's an all-time fun trade.

54:33I went back and I read that piece that I wrote when I did a sort of TikTok of it. There's so many things that were going on that I had forgotten about. like Woj had reported that the Spurs were actually sort of exploring trading Tony Parker to move up higher in the draft for someone who went way above Kawhi.

54:51Bill Simmons:That was the Tony Parker getting shop summer, yeah. Then like the GMs are on the record in the piece being like, well, you know, we got to go time and the Spurs decided they didn't just need the Kawhi pick. They wanted Davis Bertan or they wanted the 42nd pick in that draft that became Davis Bertans and an international prospect named Arizem Lorbeck. and they might not do the trade unless they get both of them. And Indiana was like, both of them. That seems like a lot. I guess we'll do it. All these things can fall apart so easily in the moment that it's kind of amazing that a deal like this gets done.

55:27But yeah, Kyrie, I was interested to see who you'd take second, if you would flirt with Jimmy Butler. Kyrie, I think, is the clear second guy. I mean, I don't, I feel like we just, we have had very limited glimpses of him given his stature of like him being the guy in an NBA offense, like undisputed the guy. And I just wonder how we'd think of him if we, if, if like that was mostly Cleveland pre LeBron coming back when they were just a bad team. Yeah. I think he's just an absolutely sensational offensive player that in his prime, if he ever got handed the keys to an offense, we might think of him a little differently.

56:03Bill Simmons:I think he felt that way too, which is why he wanted to leave. Second best guy in a championship team, three finals teams, one second team, all NBA two thirds playoffs career, 23, a game 39 % from three 14 seasons, only 779 games, but a big one of one factor with him. I think he's one of those guys. He's, he's way better than a Kyrie Irving was a problem, social media video guy, but he will be a guy that I think as the years pass will be even better as some of the how just his ability to go left hand right hand in traffic double clutch triple clutch um and he made one of the biggest shots of the century right that's it we were both there they which one no i wasn't there for that one you were there for them yeah um but one you know won a title uh i thought he was the clear second choice and uh and i'll take the l on that one you have the third pick who do you have this is a good one without hesitation i will take jimmy butler um it's it's him or clay and obviously both have had some injury issues clay is more severe and traumatic than jimmy butler's um jimmy's had some conflagrations in some of his stops in all of his stops almost um and clay is a four-time champion jimmy butler is not a champion yet uh i just think head-to-head the defense the size um just the the all-around scoring ability i i would put him i would take him over clay in a vacuum with apologies to one of the greatest shooters of all time and uh game six clay and clutch performances it's it's it's a debate because of what clay has done on the biggest stage so many times uh but you know part of the reason he got to do that was that he was surrounded by one of the 12 greatest players of all time and and just the perfect nucleus for him.

57:54So I'll take Jimmy Butler. I have a feeling you would have gone Clay here, but I'm going Jimmy Butler.

57:59Bill Simmons:It was 3A, 3B to me. I think if you're going Jimmy, he was the best player on two finals teams that didn't win the finals, but he carried two teams to the finals, which I don't know if Clay could have done as a number one guy. And I think that's the difference. Jimmy had one top 10, one second team on NBA, three top 15s. 2020 playoffs, 22, seven and six, two year playoff peak, 27, seven and five, 39 games, career playoffs, 21, six and five, 130 games. The, the chemistry stuff with him is really dicey. And I think has to be that, that was one of the things, there were two things that almost swung it to me for clay.

58:43Bill Simmons:One is clay is one of the great shooters of all time. I think Clay gets unfairly dinged because that five-year Warriors one was so grueling. The entire team literally broke down at the end. And Clay broke down once and for all at the tail end of it after five years when they're playing. I mean, what did they play? Over 500 games in five years? Lots of games. It's one of the most grueling, awful stretches any team's had. And it's a reason why we don't see, we'll never see a Bill Russell Celtics again. because no team can do that for more than four to five years. His five-year peak, 22-4-3, 42 % from three.

59:22Bill Simmons:You mentioned the Klay Thompson game in OKC that saved them in 2016. Second best player on the 15 champs, third best on the 17 and 18 champs. Basically, the second best or third best guy on a team that went 207-39 over three years and won 25 games in a row and had a 73-win record at one point. But a couple of shooting things with him really quick. So there's only four guys ever who have made 2 ,000 threes and shot 40 % from three. He's one of the four. Curry, Ray Allen, Clay Thompson. Weirdly, Kyle Korver. He's also the only guy ever to have at least 400 threes and shoot 40 % in the playoffs. He's 501 threes in the playoffs.

1:00:10Bill Simmons:even if you're going 175 three years or more, that's only him, Steve Nash, Ray Allen, and Duncan Robinson are the only four guys who did that. So I actually think he's a greater shooter than maybe people realize. And he was also an awesome defensive player and was never the same after those two injuries, which happened. He blew out his knee and then he blew out the Achilles within, what, eight months of each other? And was just never the same guy after that. I think this could have been like a Ray Allen 15-year career of just him being awesome without the injuries. Ray Allen is the right name because we never got to see the Klay Thompson version of Seattle Ray Allen, who is the number one option and actually kind of fared better than maybe people thought he would as someone who was pigeonholed as a shooter more than a scorer and a distributor.

1:00:55And I think Klay Thompson could have approximated that if he ever, I don't know if the team would have won quite as much as the Warriors won, but when he was in his prime, And his shot was so lethal that it made every other part of his game better because you had to press him so high on the floor. You had to overreact to him every time he touched the ball that he could have just like he didn't need to be the most explosive driver to beat people off the dribble because they were already basically beaten by the time they were guarding him. And he was an OK passer. but to your point just an absolute killer as a shooter a beloved teammate a grinder turned himself into a very good defensive player he has an all defensive team appearance I believe on on his resume never heard any arena I've ever been in maybe with the exception of MSG after the Ananobi tip then Oracle was when he came out to shoot those free throws in the finals in game six when he was on one of the great heaters of his career and then got fouled and injured yeah um end up tearing his acl um and he was a guy like one of the things i'll never a story i'll never get tired of telling that i unearthed in writing about clay he was a guy that the spurs in this draft brought in for a second secret workout right before the draft because they were so curious about him and obviously he gets picked i think four spots above kawaii and chip england who was the spurs assistant coach then shooting specialist was was at these workouts and he told people on the spurs um something about this guy's internal drive reminds me of mondo ginobili and they they all their hair stood up on end because they all revere ginobili is as a competitor as a fighter and not a lot of people saw that in clay he's kind of like socal laid back whatever but the fire really burns in him and it really endeared him to everybody he he was ever around he hated losing he took it personally like he took this whole draft personally he took he and others with the Warriors told me about that like he never forgave the Kings for taking Jim or for that over him he would go around saying the Cavs took the wrong Thompson they took Tristan Thompson like he was he is doesn't look it but he is a fiery fiery dude I regardless of the fact that I didn't take him with my first or third pick in this draft he's just one of my all-time favorite basketball players and always will be.

1:03:16Bill Simmons:Yeah, there's a stretch there from Biombo at 7, Knight at 8, Kemba at 9, and Jimmer at 10 that I'm sure Clay was probably like, what the fuck is happening? I think the Jimmer one really stuck in his craw. It's like, really? You're taking another shooter over me? Alright. Listen, I think you made the right pick at 3 with Jimmy. But. And if we could go back in a time machine and have this draft, and I know what I'm getting with each guy, and the Clay injuries, you can't factor that in because I think that was a wear and tear from the five years. I just think I would rather have Clay Thompson on my team for the 15 years than Jimmy Butler because I get an awesome teammate.

1:04:01Bill Simmons:I get no drama at all. I get the gravity of Clay. Well, you're not going to have Jimmy for 15 years. I guess I have to make that into my decision. But that's that Jimmy brings this extra drama, but the higher upside. It's a really interesting debate. Like, I guarantee if we ask Steve Kerr, yo, just curious, who would you rather have had since 2011 on? He wasn't there until 2014. But would you rather Jimmy or Clay? Would have been no contest. So it's a good argument. The thing about Jimmy is the thing that's interesting about how every situation with him seems to end badly is which is true. the jimmy stuff is always really good until it's not like like chicago oh he changed our culture he's a locker room what is what a bulldog what a story jives with tibbs and then he hates hoiberg and it goes the other way um minnesota like tibbs again like oh he's elevating the culture and then he decides he doesn't think cat and wiggins are winners and it goes the other way miami all tailor-made this is a heat culture guy like central casting maybe he's a problem somewhere else but he's made for us and then it goes badly there so there's this weird up and down where he's It's like he plays in a way that you want your other players to play, a toughness, defense, and all that stuff.

1:05:09He's a good chemistry guy, and then it goes the other way. It's not like a universally bad. You know from day one this guy is going to bring some issues to our team. It doesn't start that way with Jimmy.

1:05:21Bill Simmons:So we went Kawhi, Kyrie, Butler, Clay. You have the fifth pick, and it drops off here to a pretty interesting next three. I mean, I'm excited to pick 1-3-5 in this draft because I can build my team around the trio of Kawhi and Jimmy Butler on the wing and Kemba Walker as a spot-up shooting point guard. Kemba Walker, wow. I just think he reached – his highs were higher than anyone else on the list. His two best seasons in Charlotte were better than anything that I can get from anybody else in this draft. He fits with my two wings that I've already taken. We can protect him on defense. And I just thought he hit some pretty spectacular highs, both as an off-the-dribble artist and just as a number one scorer on a decent team that, frankly, people didn't expect from him earlier in his career when his jumper was shaky and all that stuff.

1:06:15And another just all-time beloved culture guy. So I'm taking him.

1:06:20Bill Simmons:I wrote in the draft diary, he's a leader and a winner, could absolutely be the second or third guard and a contender someday, which he ended up being in 2020 in the Celtics in the bubble, where he did not, they went to the conference finals, he did not have a great last series there. You mentioned his peak in Charlotte, 24, six assists, 38 % from three. He was basically discount Dame Lillard, right? He's like a slightly poor man's name. Four all-star teams, one third team all-NBA. and uh and sadly his knees just didn't hold up i mean they went pretty fast boston stiffed it out they traded him um he ended up getting them out horford they had to attach a pick to it and then uh there's a weird thing where the knicks thought he had a little bit left in him and he just didn't and he had one all-time great game with the knicks when his mom was in the stands and yeah i think he might just put up a 50 ball if i'm i may be making that up but it was like a crazy high scoring game.

1:07:18Bill Simmons:But I think that led to them having a trade what ended up being the Jalen Durham pick because they had to attach the pick to get rid of Kemba on Detroit and that ended up they didn't get him but they ended up with some free agent stuff anyway. I think that's fair. I'm going to take Vucevic sixth and I had him in the five spot so over a thousand in games 32k minutes which is uh second most in this draft 17 and 10 career 50 shooting um never won a playoff series his entire career two all-star games and his big legacy ended up being that bizarre chicago trade which ended up being wendell carter wagner and i think anthony black they got for voodoo no it's jet it was jet howard oh it's jet howard okay yeah well they end up getting carter and wagner for voodoo basically which you're doing 100 times out of 100 but um i like the durability with him i think he fits in with my team but i also think he should be either the fifth or sixth guy from this draft i can't believe you i can't believe you would even entertain taking him over kemba walker i guess i don't know what we're aiming for quite i'm like i i just i'm aiming for for i'm going heights more than i guess the kemba question to me is was it a good stats bad team situation with them because it's not like those charlotte teams were winning right when he was putting up those stats and the only time we ever saw him on a good team with a chance to really do well was that boston team that he just didn't have a good playoff series for them or yeah good playoff run for him but it might have been at a different point of him physically that's bubble and physically wearing down and it's not as if that charlotte team uh was making great decisions about its franchise around the surrounding of it in spite of the rest of this draft and the fact that we will not say Bismack Biambo's name for quite a long time.

1:09:10Bill Simmons:He was a defensive liability even when he was 100 % healthy. And in the 2020 playoffs, teams just, Miami especially, it was just like he had, they just put a, they covered him in steak sauce and just tried to grill him for two weeks. What do you think is going to happen? What do you think is going to happen with Vooch on your team? Well, that's the irony of this. Kemba versus Vooch, two all-time guys who get hunted and were big reasons why they never had more playoff success. So I just thought Vuce's career was a little longer. But I thought that was a 5A, 5B situation. I know you're going to take seven.

1:09:47Bill Simmons:So go ahead. Yeah. I think really you surrendered this draft by letting me have the first pick. I think this is a clear 1, 3, 5, 7. I win the draft over you. I will take – let me just check the second round to make sure. No, you know who you're going to take. I got to bring him in. I got to bring Tobias Harris to my team. I'm taking Tobias Harris at seven. And I have, you know, he's a power. My team is trending power forward. But that's OK. He's longevity, production, a little late career revival with the Pistons. I think he'll help the Spurs, you know, left the Philadelphia sour experience behind and rebounded.

1:10:27And I just like he's done more than the Morris twins. He's done more than Alec Burks, done more than Brandon Knight. He's done more than Chandler Parsons and Boyan Bogdanovich, who are good second round picks here. I just don't think there's really anyone else who sways me here. I mean, is there another candidate? Markeith Morris at his best was pretty good. Tristan Thompson, I think, is underrated. You're spoiling the draft for the listeners. All right, all right. Well, okay, all right. No, it drops off. Give me Tobias Harris, and we'll sign Bulban Marjanovic as an undrafted free agent and reunite them.

1:11:02Bill Simmons:Over 1 ,000 games for him. Most minutes of anyone from this draft, 32 ,474. 16-6 for his career. 17-8 in the playoffs. Never made a conference finals. In the running for best zero all-star guy from this century. Ooh, I like that. Just from this century. Never made an all-star game, but I think the career is pretty solid. He's going to end up, now he's going to San Antonio, might have a chance to actually make conference finals or finals. I would say he has a good chance. He's also been in five trades. where the team that traded him lost the trade each time. Charlotte traded up and Milwaukee traded back and it ended up being a mess, but Milwaukee ended up getting Harris and ended up winning the trade.

1:11:50He got traded in 2013 with Deron Lamb.

1:11:55Bill Simmons:Did you have Deron Lamb stock? I did not. Bino Udre and Cash. for... Orlando got Tobias with those other two guys and Milwaukee got Gustavo Ione, J.J. Redick, and Ish Smith. A famously unhappy J.J. Redick-Milwaukee experience. I was going to say, let me give you some personal advice if you run into J.J. Do not ask him questions about his tenure with the Milwaukee Bucks. It's not funny. He's not going to laugh at it. He's not going to take the joke well. Even went better than his New Orleans Pelicans tenure. 2016 traded to Detroit from Orlando for Irsan Ily Soba and Brandon Jennings. Wildly irresponsible trade.

1:12:36Really horrible. For the magic. That was a Scott Skiles has the wheel and is driving the car into the Grand Canyon trade.

1:12:43Bill Simmons:By the way, I see genuine joy as I list these terrible trades from the 2010s in your face right now. 2018, traded with Avery Bradley, Boban, and a 2018 first round pick that ended up being Miles Bridges. but then they traded back with Miles Bridges spot to take SGA who became a two-time MVP to the Clippers for Blake Griffin and two other guys and Detroit got a year and a half out of Blake Griffin and he broke down and then last but not least traded by the Clippers with Boban and Mike Scott for Wilson Chandler Mike Muscala Landry Schammett and two firsts that were not big first that's the only one where the other team might have won the trade because I think the Clippers We're excited to turn Tobias into two firsts.

1:13:29Bill Simmons:Anyway, quite a career. Still going. We're going to see him in some real playoff situations on a good team. We should mention another beloved teammate. Everybody likes him. So there you go. Okay. Eighth pick. Eighth pick for me. I'm just taking upside with Isaiah Thomas, who was the 60th pick of this draft. That's a good one. By the way, I should have mentioned, Vucevic was 16th and Tobias was 19th in this draft. Isaiah Thomas was 60th, went to Sacramento, somehow ended up having a better career than Jimmer Furnette, who they took 10th, ended up in Phoenix. Danny Ainge steals him and has this incredible two-year run with the Celtics where he averages 26 a game for two years.

1:14:18Bill Simmons:7.6 free throw attempts, two all-star teams, And in 2017, second team all-NBA, fifth MVP, and they make the conference finals. Really nice run. And then got hurt, and they traded him, and probably still paying karma points for trading a guy who really went all out for them in the playoffs and was never really the same again after that, when it was arguable he should have kept playing. But his highs were high. I would say... It's a good pick. I would say similar, although the other person had way more success. But his effect on those Celtics teams those first two years, or those big two years, in the vicinity of what Brunson has done for the Knicks for the last four, from a statistic slash, oh my God, I can't believe he's getting to the rim like this.

1:15:10Bill Simmons:And there was some similarities. Brunson's a better player, obviously. Well, he also arrives in Boston as part of this spasm of Phoenix point guard trades where they traded him to Boston for a first-round pick. They traded Dragic to the Heat for two picks. And then they trade one of the Lakers picks that they had, one of the golden chips of the league, for another guy in this draft, Brandon Knight, who neither of us have taken yet. So to recap, we have Kawhi at 15. These are the top eight picks we took. Kawhi, who went 15th, Kyrie first, Butler 30, Klay 11, Kemba 9, Vucevic 16, Harris 19, and Thomas 60.

1:15:48Bill Simmons:This draft was fucking not only drunk, but like throwing up and having its hair held back as it puked again. Well, I'm going to restore some order with the ninth pick and pick Tristan Thompson, who was the fourth pick in the draft, because I know here are some things I'm going to get from prime Tristan Thompson. I'm going to get some really I'm going to get a lot of press for his romantic endeavors, which is going to help my team's publicity go up. I'm going to get elite defense switchability, versatility, and I'm going to have the most annoying offensive rebounder in the entire league who's going to do all the dirty work for my team, never complain about his touches, and just be effective at what he does.

1:16:26And at this stage of the draft, I'm very happy to just get that.

1:16:29Bill Simmons:He turned into an awesome role player. Four finals teams, 2016 champs. Three playoffs from 15 to 17 where he averaged 9.4 rebounds a game and did all the switching stuff you mentioned. Bill has said during the draft, he just needs to learn how to play and how to score. And then I wrote, I think I need more for my fourth pick than that. Well, he turned into a decent guy. I think that turns out he's a great ninth pick in this draft. Yeah. I, uh, I'm going to take a guy who's played a thousand games, who career is 13 and nine, 56 % shooting and who is an interesting what if for the 2016 playoffs Jonas Valanciunas good pick so came back 2016 playoffs is his peak he's averaging a 15 and 12 in the 2016 playoffs for a really good Toronto team and gets hurt midway through the second round and comes back for the last couple Cleveland games in round three.

1:17:38Bill Simmons:Toronto loses to Cleveland in six. Did you ever feel like that was like, maybe not a Hall of Fame what if, but maybe like a little stealth on the Sunday buffet next to the scrambled eggs and bacon as a what if for you? Like, what if Jonas doesn't get hurt? Does anything change in 2016? Hello? No. No. No. We're going with no, Alex. No. whoa okay uh he does give up to run he does end up getting toronto a title though because what happens well they trade him for marcus soul one of my favorite all-time players i love yonas i think he's actually a great success story of someone who um found his place in the nba by just doubling down by everything he was good at he's a big man who they know they flirted with him is he going to be can we make him a three-point shooter can we do this and he's like you know what i'll just beat the shit out of everybody all the time and that's going to be what i do and he was very effective at him.

1:18:35Bill Simmons:He was a top five or six, don't fuck with him guy for at least 12 years. I never, other than Toronto, I never felt like he found the right teams. I always felt like it was always a mismatch with teams that he was on. Neither did he. That's why he's in Europe now. Right. He went through some of the real dregs of the last five years in the NBA, just sort of like cycling through teams. He ended up in New Orleans and Sacramento, the two worst run teams in the league at one point. And by the time he gets to Denver, he's pretty much washed. I did the draft hire in 2011. I had Kevin Wilds and Dave Jacoby with me as peanut gallery guys.

1:19:11Bill Simmons:And when Valenshueness got interviewed for this draft after he got picked, Wilds thought Valenshueness was right on the interpreter cusp where he knew just enough English that he didn't need one, but probably should have gotten one anyway. And Wilds said, the interpreter never hurts. You're always going to sound smart talking in your own language. And then I wrote, unless you're Brett Favre. um what a what a what a night i think that's a great point by wilds though the interpreter always makes you sound better the interpreter is always a win like unless you're like when benyama level english i'm using the interpreter until it's just obvious i don't need one anymore i'm just like fuck it wow yeah all right this i just look i mean

1:19:58it depends what french i mean like can you imagine they asking tom dundon to pay for some extra interpreters for Hanson Young.

1:20:06Bill Simmons:There would only be one. There would only be one that... They need one guy who speaks 12 different languages just in case we sign anyone from any part of the world. Which things of the Tom Dundon belt-tightening things have you actually agreed with or kind of see his point? Because my only one is, why do we have 12 assistant coaches at every game and on the bench and at Summer League? I would just never have more than four. I do think there is a certain amount of fake hustle in all of sports that he's trying to police a little bit? Like, do we really need like 17 people to scout this opponent?

1:20:38But most of it is just like, he's just obviously trying to squeeze every penny I can out of the team. Like, are they even going to have a broadcast team next year?

1:20:45Bill Simmons:I know you talked about this already, but what do you think his end game is? I am not as plugged in as I need to be on it. I would assume his end game is get the city to pay for a really nice arena or a really nice upgrade to the current arena and not have to foot too much of the bill himself. uh i don't think that's gonna happen you think they're gonna move the team i don't i just don't think i don't think the city is going to be chipping in to help this rich guy have a better arena good they shouldn't i mean it's been 15 years since i've read field of schemes on a summer vacation which is all about this and the schemes are still scheming i remember when i did my hbo show this was a big part of the ad campaign how billionaires should pay for their own stadiums what a concept you have the most money maybe you should use the money why are you asking the city to do it or just keep the arena you have all right you have the 11th pick who do you have uh boy okay now we've reached the point where no i thought there's two i like two guys so look i'm debating between two guys i wonder if they're the same two guys um but you know where i have a connection in the world and so i will take Boyan Bogdanovich to round out my team.

1:21:57I had him shooting. I had him 10 years in the league, 20 ,000 minutes, 11 ,000 points, knockdown shooter could do a little ball. 39 % threes for his career could handle the ball and it post up in a pinch. If I need him, I'm not going to need him to do it on my team, but I feel like he's the best option. There are some good, depending on how much you weigh longevity here. There are some interesting players in this spot, but I'll go, I'll go boy.

1:22:21Bill Simmons:He had a couple, cup of coffees, cups of coffee. cup of coffees. He had a couple of cups of coffee as this guy's a missing piece for us. And the only time it really worked was in Utah. I looked at his stats for 21 and they lose to the Clippers after Kawhi gets hurt, which was just an indefensible loss. But he was 18 and a half points a game in like 13 playoff games, 46 % from three and was an absolute bitch in that entire playoffs to guard and really felt like, oh, you know, but that was really the only time we saw it unleashed. But I always liked his game. I always thought, I remember when he was on the Wizards in 2017 when the Celtics played them.

1:23:02Bill Simmons:I always felt like they didn't get him the ball enough and figure out how to unleash him because I thought the Celtics had trouble guarding him. There was a Pacers-Cavs series when he was on the Pacers and everyone was like, is he the LeBron stopper? I forgot about that. Yeah, I do feel like he's a legitimate playoff guy. He went 31st in this draft. Which ties into my pick at number 12. I'm taking Marcus Morris. Oh, okay. Who is 14th, who played 41 more games than his brother. So what swung it for me is he was a real rotation guy for two conference finals teams in 2018 with the Celtics and 2021 with the Clippers.

1:23:42Bill Simmons:Where he was, he played 30 minutes a game for the Celts and 31 for the Clippers. He's like a 12 and five, almost 40 % from three both times. And I just think if he could have been this, one of the top five to seven guys on a conference finalist, that's better than anyone else I'm getting in this. And I thought he was a little better than his brother. Okay. So you are now, we only have a couple of picks left here. There's a couple of fun ones left, so we can go quick. Who do you have? I'm going to have some fun. I'm going to have some fun right now. I want all around skill. i'm going ceiling i'm drafting ceiling all around skill max player back in his day a little entertainment value off the court we're bringing chandler parsons onto the squad who was the 38th pick in this draft yeah injuries ruined his career knee stuff all that stuff uh some late nights with mark cuban that were well publicized we may have to the you know just get get the off-court stuff a little under control uh but we're taking chandler parsons and he's a great he's going to help recruit free agents to my team.

1:24:44He was always at the forefront of that. His emoji use was first rate during the DeAndre Jordan-Hussett situation. Yeah, I'm taking him.

1:24:52Bill Simmons:So I had him higher on my initial list than I did the deep dive on the career. And he only played 440 games in nine years. He played 13 playoff games, zero round two playoff games. His four-year peak was 15 and 5, 39 % from three. I had him down, but not, I had this guy ahead of him. Ennis Cantor was the third pick of the draft. 11 and eight for his career. Really one of the better per 36 guys we've ever had. I think Boban's obviously the LeBron of per 36, but, um, but Cantor was 22 and 12 as a per 36 guy for his, uh, his prime. And, uh, also helped the Knicks win the title. You know how? Who do they get in that?

1:25:43he's involved in a whole, an Oklahoma city, New York trade.

1:25:47Bill Simmons:OKC trades for Carmelo for some reason in 2018, they give up Cantor McDermott and a second round pick in 2018, which becomes Mitchell Robinson. Oh, wow. Yeah. I always liked Cantor's game. He, it went fast when he was on the Celtics. He was just, he just was washed. He was too slow, but I always thought he was kind of a bitch on the low post. Like he could really like torture. teams and he was a good change of pace coming off the bench physical guy and i feel like where the league is now he kind of missed he was between these two eras that he would have been good in he was in the worst possible era for what he was good at i think he would have been better now um it's a good pick and as you said when i took chandler parsons there was a bunch of guys in this draft that played significantly more games than him and were fairly productive in ns canner and his freedom is one of them i also will always admire uh 2019 playoffs with the blazers nurkic got hurt he's shoved into the starting five he was dealing with some kind of elbow or arm injury and just like unrelenting you know his skill level was you know he was an around the rim guy offensively he was a liability defensively there's the famous billy donovan can't play canter lip reading thing that happened with oklahoma city but he gave everything he had to that Portland team and did what he did well.

1:27:07And so it's a good pick.

1:27:10Bill Simmons:The one piece with him, he ended up in Utah because they traded D. Will to the Nets. And they ended up getting the third pick in the draft. What did they get? Derek Favors and Cantor out of it, basically? Devin Harris is in that trade, too. But the Cantor pick really felt like, holy shit, they're getting the third pick of the draft out of this. And it was just the wrong draft. that wasn't like if like if that happened in 2024 it's like oh cool we have jabari smith um that didn't go all right let's go quick who do you have next uh okay quick quick who do i have next this is now we're getting into dicey not dicey but you know i'm uh i'll take you're gonna take who i would have taken there's someone i really want to take but it's too early for him uh i'll take markeith morris to make sure the twins are not on the same team wow mark i really i really thought i really thought markeith morris was going to be better than he ended up being in the nba i think he had real all-around skill and feel that just somehow never all clicked together at the same time yeah the shooting never clicked and maybe that's the the sort of all-encompassing explainer but at this spot in the draft i feel pretty good about taking him over a few other guys.

1:28:29Bill Simmons:I agree with you. When I did my, um, the 2014 rankings, I had him 10th and I had him ahead of his brother. He, we should mention was a role player on the 2020 Lakers, won the title 18 minutes a game, uh, played for eight teams. So he could be, I think at his peak, maybe the ninth or 10th man on a really good team, which I think he was better than that. Um, but yeah, I mean, he never became, there was a vision of him where he was a starting power forward on a good team because he could do just about, just enough of everything to be like a jack of all trades. And that never really. The irony of the Morris twins of both of them were about an inch and a half too short.

1:29:12Right.

1:29:12Bill Simmons:They were in that weird tweener zone. I'm taking Reggie Jackson. He was in, yeah, that's a good pick. Two conference finals, 2014 playoffs for OKC. Six man was pretty good as a bench guy that year, living a game. And then famously had an oversized ego. And I don't think it played well in that team. Ended up going to Detroit. Stan Van Gundy overpaid for him. Your guy. And then 2021 playoffs, Clippers make the conference finals. He's 18 a game in the playoffs, 41 % from three and was like a revelation for them. So he did it in a big spot. He was the 24th pick in this draft. And, uh, you know, worst case scenario that I think the thing that Dink said was he went to Denver and 23 and we thought that was going to be an impactful move for them heading in and they won the title anyway, but he just really wasn't involved and never really meshed with Joker, which seemed to be a recurring theme for him.

1:30:10Bill Simmons:So taking them there. Who do you got? I have four draftable guys. That's it. Yeah. I got more than that. Uh, I am going to go off the board a little bit here. And I'm going to go all the way down to number 42, and I'm going to take Davis Bertans. Just, you know what? Let it fly. Like, almost no one, almost no non-star player has been so, like, guiltless, without conscience, without thinking about letting it fly from three. And he should. That's what he was in the NBA to do. He would let fly from all angles, all distances, against tight closeouts. and he's an all-time very he's like a very very good elite three-point shooter and let's have some fun on my team he'll create some chemistry problems by taking too many shots so our coaches will have to do some work with that but uh you know it's it's him or a couple other guys that you're going to mention and i don't feel strongly enough about any of them that i'll take the guy that i know has one a plus skill uh and some other liabilities but one a plus skill i'll take davis pertain what was didn't he get a goofy contract at some point from somebody because i remember writing davis pertan's contract for two years i believe it was the washington wizards of joe house yeah that's what it was i just remember him being in every trade rumor for two years as some sort of third contract whatever okay re-signed risk re-signed unrestricted free agent sit down for a minute yeah five years 80 million dollars in 2020 uh washington wizards what year was that the year of our basketball gods 2020.

1:31:51Bill Simmons:Oh, that was like a... Why would they do that? That's insane. Even for the Wizards, that's insane. Five years, 80 million? Jesus. Fucking Wizards. I'm taking Alec Burks. 12th pick in this draft. Good pick. Basically 11 points a game, 38 % from three for his career, and he's played 791 games. always like in the 8th, 9th, 10th range. Some playoff contenders have kicked the tires on him to mixed success. Probably did the best on Detroit, I would say, but had a long time in Utah. He had a late career revival with the Knicks. Tibbs loved him. I just kind of enjoyed him. Kooky shot. One of the weird kooky shots in an era where a lot of people have the assembly line shots, but his shot was a little goofy, which I liked.

1:32:47Bill Simmons:So that's my one. All right, who do you got? You know who I don't got? Isn't this the draft where the Timberwolves take through a trade select Tanguy Nagombo who turned out to be too old to be draft eligible? I think that happened in this draft. Do you remember that? That was one of David Kahn's last moves. I think that's the right guy. A tail end for the David Kahn era. Apologies if it's not, but he is one of the players mistaken in the second round who has no stats in the nba and thus never played so i will not be taking him an all-timer like drafting a guy who's undraftable i mean that's like you might as well draft a football player just just for fun like teams used to do uh i'll have some fun i'll take kenneth farid uh i i really liked watching i'm at the disappointing kenneth freed but got taken part of this draft yeah he's my next you know voracious rebounder rim runner super angry dunker never really advanced any other part of his game, unfortunately.

1:33:44Had a little useful jump hook he could bust out now. And then I just feel like he'll come in and make hustle plays for me.

1:33:49Bill Simmons:I was a huge fan. First six years, 12-9 in 26 minutes a game. Probably peaked on that weird Denver playoff hodgepodge team. I loved him in the draft. I wrote in the draft diary, if Fareed doesn't end up having a meaningful moment for a contender at some point over the next eight years, I'm giving you a full refund for this column. I think he had a meaningful moment for kind of the George Carl team where Gallin-Hour got hurt right before the playoffs. That counted as a made loose to the Warriors as sort of the Warriors announcing to the world we are here, we're forced to be reckoned with. But yeah, I think you don't owe anybody.

1:34:26Bill Simmons:I'm going to take Nikola Meretic with, we could make this the last picker go one more round. 23rd in this draft, couldn't come over for a few years, was dangled as this Very few times this has happened over the years. The guy who's overseas, who's always been Sergio Lowe. It's the Sergio Lowe All-Stars. These guys that are overseas that are just lingering as these massive assets, but they really weren't. But we always heard about them over and over again. He finally came over. He played second round in the rotation for the Bulls, Pelicans, and Bucks and was a 12 and six guy and was always a little overpaid.

1:35:05Bill Simmons:I think I liked them the most on the Bulls. um but he ended up who did he get in the fight with bobby portis i was gonna say you gotta just keep don't sign bobby portis on your team yeah bobby portis teammate fight in the locker room what it probably was quite quite he really hurt muratic yeah he would he break his like orbital bone or something i just say i would just say he broke his face um not great um anyway welcome to my team. We'll keep Bobby Portis off it. All right. I'll give you one last pick if you want. I have a guy I'm excited to pick. I think this is a perfect, what is this? The one, this is like the 10th guy on my team, I think.

1:35:42It's a perfect 10th guy. Had some playoff moments. Locker room stabilizer. Organized the offense for us off the bench. Corey Joseph, come on down to team low. He was the 29th pick in this draft. Right behind Norris Cole, NBA champion Norris Cole, who can't get a sniff. Nor could number two pick Derek Williams.

1:36:01Bill Simmons:Corey Joseph might have had, there was, somebody overpaid him at some point. I can't remember who. I remember there was a, oof, contract with him. Could be. I think it was a Toronto. Yeah, somebody did it. Yeah, he was more of a fourth guard who got miscast as a third guard sometimes. But yeah, he was around there and he was on the 2014 Spurs high-fiving people. kings signed to a three-year 37.2 oh man just it just goes to show you it's always the king the raptors signed them in four years earlier to four years 30 um which is more reasonable so when in doubt kings wizards like if you're like who was that bad contract with a crazy contract.

1:36:59All right.

1:37:00Bill Simmons:Last pick of the draft. Chemistry guy. When he was drafted, Fran for Sheila said about him, the problem, he cannot score. You cannot run any plays for him. That was what I had in the draft diary. Bismack Biambo. Seventh pick of the draft. Bismack getting in. Still kicking around. Bismack's big moment was when Valenshuenis got hurt in 2016 and the Raptors had to throw him in for like seven, eight playoff games. They won a series with him as the center. They finished off Miami with Biombo as their center and then lost to Cleveland. But he's still around. I'm sure he's going to be in the league next year.

1:37:36Bill Simmons:He's one of the longest-running guys from this draft. You know what else happened in 2016 with Bismack Biombo? He was overpaid. The cap spike and the$64 million contract from the Orlando Magic, who had like nine big men on their team already, did not work out. I love the cap spike. All right, so that's the draft. not picked. Derek Williams, the second pick in this draft, who ended up being a 30 % three-point shooter in the NBA. I wrote in the draft diary, I believe Derek Williams will be a more effective professional basketball player than Kyrie Irving. We will see. One of my worst ones ever, easily in the top 10.

1:38:14Bill Simmons:This was David Kahn's last first round pick, I think. And this really, just quickly, the number two curse, which goes back to 1984, where we have Sam Bowie, Lenny Bias, Danny Ferry, Sean Bradley, Jay Williams, Darko Milichick, Marvin Williams, Michael Beasley, Hashim Thabit, Evan Turner, Derek Williams, Michael K. Gilchrist, Jabari Parker, Lonzo Ball, Marvin Bagley, and James Wiseman from 1984 to 2020. And then not mentioning Steve Francis, John Moran, Kenny Anderson, and Victor Oladipo, who all had off-the-court stuff or bad injury luck. And then it feels like it's shifted now. I'm not as scared of the second pick anymore in the 2020s.

1:38:57Bill Simmons:We've had some good ones in a row. Jan Vesely did not get drafted. Wanted to mention, Sal and I bet that Jan Vesely would be a top six pick in this draft, and we won that because he went sixth. One of my first summer league memories that I can see really clearly was sitting in the stands in the little gym, not Thomas and Mac, the other one, with some Wizards officials watching Jan Vesely play the three for their summer league team after getting drafted. It was clear he was not going to be able to play the three. And in my mind, he had like eight fouls in the first half. And I was like, this is...

1:39:33I might leave. This is getting a little awkward with you guys. It's not going great for Jan Vesely. You go to the bathroom and don't come back.

1:39:41Bill Simmons:Brandon Knight went eighth. Brandon Knight should have been drafted, but just could not stay healthy. I think he played 60 games once. He did get one big contract from somebody. I think the Pistons. Jimmer Fredette at 10. I wrote, I see him becoming a more consistently explosive version of JJ Barea, only with deeper range. That's some guy you'd want on your team, right? Turned out, no, was wrong on that. Amon Shumpert, 17. Yeah, Shump was the other one. Had a case. And the only other things from this draft was ESPN played Adele's rolling in the deep the entire time. Oh. uh that it was a rolling in the deep draft with a lot of uh i'm trying i'm trying to look at the um look at the draft and and uh see is there is there a guy in here that i just had a super soft spot for like i was sure this guy was gonna make it and it was not i think mine was kenneth reed i remember liking jordan hamilton by the way josh selby is in this draft yep and and the only reason i bring up josh selby is because all-time summer league all-star just like he came in and exploded in summer league and then played 38 games over two nba seasons my soft spot guy dang guy in the gombo i did kind of enjoy john john how'd you pronounce his name lure lure lure lure was good i always thought he was like a banger that was gonna have moment i had a moment where i enjoyed lavoie allen who was the 50th pick i like lavoie allen i i liked um jordan Hamilton had a soft spot for it and I liked Andrew Goudlach had some sauce to his game.

1:41:17Andrew Goudlach was a problem.

1:41:19Bill Simmons:Now you said Steamsma was an undrafted free agent in this draft? Yeah. I had the list but I deleted it because there was no one that we were going to pick. Alright, here's your team. Well, I'll just do what the draft was and it goes back and forth. Zach's pick, my pick, Zach's pick, my pick. You took Kawhi. I took Kyrie Irving. You took Jimmy Butler. I took Klay Thompson. You took Kemba Walker. I took Nikola Vucevic. You took Tobias Harris. I took Isaiah Thomas with the eighth pick. You took Tristan Thompson. I took Jonas Valanciunas. You took Boyan Bogdanovich. I took Marcus Morris. You took Chandler Parsons.

1:42:00Bill Simmons:You have a more fun kind of team to hang out with than me. Joy. Joy is going to be our watchword. I have Ennis Cantor. You have Markeith Morris. You ended up, did you get, oh no, we split up the Morris twins. I took Reggie Jackson. You took Davis Bertans. I took Al Burks. You took Kenneth Farid. I took Nikola Meretic. You took Corey Joseph. I took Bismack Biambo to round it out. We'll put it on the social medias and we'll ask people to say who won that one. But man, I would say that's a 10 out of 10 weirdo draft. I don't know if it gets weirder than that one. Other than maybe 2013. 2013 is a 10 and a half out of 10.

1:42:37It's a pretty... 2013 is a great one. in 2009. It's not weird, but it's one of my favorite ones. This one is an all-time, like, what happened? What's going on? And I was listening to you guys do the bubble one, or the COVID one the other day. That was another wacky one.

1:42:52Bill Simmons:Zach Lowe, we will hear from you. A deeper dive on the LeBron trade, and not the LeBron signing, and all the ramifications from that. That's going up Sunday. I'm not going to have another podcast until Tuesday or Wednesday next week. Don't forget about the live rewatchables on Monday, Obsession, 4 p.m. Pacific Time, live on Netflix. And thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and everybody at Spotify as well. Congrats to the Philly fans. Are you going to have Chris Ryan this weekend? We're going to try. We're efforting. We're currently efforting. I bet he's available. Okay. That's it for the pod. Enjoy the weekend.

1:43:27Bill Simmons:I will see you next week. Thanks, Zach. Thank you. Thank you.

1:43:36I don't have feelings with him On the wayside On the first side of the world

1:44:06Bill Simmons:in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867.