Make-or-Break NFL QBs, a CFB Preview, and the WNBA Renaissance With Todd McShay and Diana Taurasi

17:36Todd McShay:Yeah, he and Bryce Young are in almost identical situations from that draft, right? Both organizations want desperately for Stroud and Young to make that next step this year. Or for Stroud to get back to where he was as a rookie. Young's tricky. I think they've handled it perfectly. Dan Morgan, I have a great appreciation for him as a general manager. They know they can't pay the guy. But I did like, I thought he played pretty well in that playoff loss. Me too. I think he's incrementally gotten better after a disastrous start to his career. They've gotten better as an organization. They keep drafting well.

18:21Todd McShay:They've kind of, I don't know, for the first time in a long time, I feel like they're stabilized as an organization. I really do. And so now, neither franchise, the Texans and Stroud and Panthers with Bryce Young were willing to go all in and who could. But they also have handled it well. You get the sense from them, whether it's true or not, it feels believable that we're fully behind them. We want desperately, and they do, they want desperately for both of these guys to take that next step this year. And for them to have to go write a massive check to them. Right. But, but we can't do it yet.

19:00Bill Simmons:You know, there's a lot of, uh, tech McBillen buzz too, who I guess that everyone calls T Mac, but, uh, but has a chance.

19:10Todd McShay:He got pissed at me during the draft for calling him Ted. I got, I got, um, I got word back from, from his people. He does not like Ted. First of all, you're lower on him than everybody else. So at least say his name, right. You know? So, yeah. Yeah.

19:25Bill Simmons:Well, he came on like a freight train near the end of last year. And now it looks like year two might, might really, if you're going to pick a wide receiver, what wide receiver could really make a leap. I think he's probably the best pick. So Bryce has that. I didn't like some of the injuries and bad juju stuff from the preseason with them. That always makes me nervous, but same. But yeah, this'll Bryce. This'll be like where Tua was a year ago, even though he already had the contract, but it's like, okay, we're going to know for sure one way or the other with two. I feel the same way with Bryce.

19:58Bill Simmons:Like, Like, this is it. If it's not happening this year, maybe he starts bouncing around.

20:04Todd McShay:Yeah, and it's a good draft next year to... Yeah. No matter where you're picking in the first round, to get a guy to kind of plug into what they're doing and not skip a huge beat.

20:15Bill Simmons:My last guy for make or break, and you might have one too, but... And I think Atlanta's going to be terrible. We talked about it on my pod last week. I think they have a chance to be the worst team in the NFC. Doesn't look good. Yeah, there's just a lot of red flags. And they have Tua, who I think they were hoping could hold the fort until Pennix was healthy and obviously can't because he's not a starting football quarterback anymore. So they're banking on Pennix, who they spent the eighth pick on the draft on. It was two weeks ago. It feels like they drafted him. And this feels like make or break for this too.

20:53Bill Simmons:Like if this doesn't work this year, maybe you zag the other way. There's so many good quarterbacks. Maybe you try to be one of the five or six worst teams in the league. Take your chances again. But do you see any chance that they can salvage him?

21:07Todd McShay:I mean, with that roster, I'm not sure, to be honest. And it was always about injuries. He had 45 starts in college and had some ups and downs. Began at Indiana, I think it was. Obviously finished at Washington. There were some times where he worried about his durability throughout his career. in college, has the ACL in November, right? And after nine starts, some promising stuff. Like, I didn't have him as the eighth best player in the draft, but I saw maybe late first round, you know, a player that could be a starter, but I'm not giving away a top 10 pick for this guy. It's also important to remember, too, they didn't draft him.

21:53Todd McShay:The guys who are making the decisions now, starting with Matt Ryan, Ian Cunningham, who I've known since we were both pups in this business. Great deal of respect for Ian. There's something, too, you want your guy. And then you're staring at this draft that we can, I don't know how much we'll get to it in a little bit.

22:16And the list goes down to like maybe down to 10 or 12

22:20Todd McShay:where they look like first-rounders. And you're also looking at a season where you think are probably going to be picking pretty high. And so maybe we get our guy and put our stamp on this organization and buy Tua, buy Michael, and then just let's build this thing from the spot that you have to build it. So I don't have high hopes for Atlanta this year. I don't have high hopes for Penix with Atlanta. For him personally, he's a great young man. I hope that he has a good enough season where there's opportunity for him. but my guess is at the end of the year that Atlanta is going to be one of these teams that we're just banging on in March and April, as we lead up to the 2027 NFL draft is they're very much in the mix and they're worried like, all right, the jets have three picks.

23:08Todd McShay:Cleveland's got two. Are they, are they going to get leap frog? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

23:13Bill Simmons:They're, they're under in the over unders. There's been a lot of action on the end. I think it's, it was seven and a half. And now it's like kind of between there's heavy juice on the under for seven and a half and slate juice if you go under six and a half. Yeah, six and a half is right. What you said about we want our guys when people take over like a movie studio or the TV side and it's like, yeah, we have. And it's like, well, I don't get credit for that if it works out. I'm just going to get rid of those. I want to come up with stuff that we did because then we get the credit. But in football, especially at Penix, three ACLs already.

23:52Bill Simmons:Haven't really seen enough flashes to me to be like, all right, let's try one more year. I'm trying to get another quarterback. I have four QBs at a very interesting inflection point of their careers. And you mentioned Herbert. Actually, five. I'm sorry. You mentioned Herbert already. Josh Allen, we don't need to do the whole. Josh Allen, Super Bowl legacy. We don't need to do that. Drake May, we talked about already. the last two Burrow and Stafford for different reasons interesting Burrow six years he's only made it to the finish line in three hasn't made the playoffs since 22 is still being perceived as one of the five best guys right Bengals are being considered a playoff team they're favored to win 10 plus games and people are always making excuses about the offensive line and they don't spend enough.

24:45Bill Simmons:And meanwhile, they went and they kept those two big receivers. But walk me through what happens if the Bengals go 8-9 this year and Burrow's not that good.

24:55Todd McShay:And he plays the whole season.

24:57Bill Simmons:He plays the whole season and it's just like, yeah, they're 8-9.

25:03Todd McShay:It's a great question. I actually think a healthy Burrow is... I think so highly of a healthy Burrow that that doesn't even compute for me.

25:14Bill Simmons:So he's a guaranteed 10-win guy for you if he's healthy and can play the whole season. Yeah.

25:21Todd McShay:If you give me best of or close to best of, 100 % healthy, good season from Joe Burrow, I think they're a 10-win team. Just because of Joe. I mean, the defense has obviously improved. They've actually done some positive things. They still can't block. They still can't block, and I don't know how he stays healthy. Seems like a problem. I honestly, you, I am such a, like, I just, he's a different cat. I can remember sitting in meetings with Brian Greasy and I sat in meetings with him at LSU and walking out of there and both looking at each other. Cause normally like we would have a sense of like, I don't know what this guy or like, how good was that?

26:00Todd McShay:You know? And both of us being like, so what do you think? Like, I don't know. What do you think? What do you think? Yeah. I don't know. And I don't mean like, I don't know. It's like, I don't know. I mean, like, I legitimately don't know. and then just watching his progression. There are very few guys that can maneuver the pocket, that read things the way he does, that have the onions, as I like to say, to make some of the throws that he makes. He's just different, man. He's just different. But this thing has eroded him. And physically, emotionally, I don't think confidence-wise, but I do wonder when that starts to set in, And I kind of want to see him go somewhere else if this year isn't, hey, we're back in the playoffs.

26:44Todd McShay:Things are rolling. I want to see Joe Burrow get an opportunity somewhere else where it's like, here's Joe. Like Stafford, who's next up that we're going to talk about. I wouldn't mind seeing a Stafford-like situation. It wasn't as dismal in Cincinnati. They obviously made the Super Bowl. But I want to see elite special players wind up with opportunities where they can actually go and be themselves, you know?

27:09Bill Simmons:Well, we see this in the NBA all the time. It feels like it happens 10 times as much in the NBA, but a guy of a couple down years, like he's basically Devin Booker now in Phoenix, right? Somebody like that who we know can be swimming in the pool of the Final Four of the title, potentially, if he's your best guy or close to your best guy. And now is basically on 500 teams. It's like, well, I know there's more there. I wonder if they trade him. But then we've had people like Anthony Davis get traded and Durant traded or signed with new teams a bunch of times. I do think if they're not a 10 or 11 win team, I do wonder if he's on that team next year.

27:45Bill Simmons:Maybe after seven years, maybe you're just like, fuck it. Who's ready to make us a godfather offer? The Stafford thing is different. Obviously, he's submitted.

27:54Todd McShay:I'm shocked that we're talking about it. Go ahead.

27:56Bill Simmons:Because Orlovsky got me thinking. Because Orlovsky had that thing on TV this week where he said they win another Super Bowl. He's one of the seven best ever. And I'm like, that doesn't. I know we say stuff on TV. We say list stuff, but maybe we don't have the list. The question for me is, can Stafford move into the top 10 and get the 10th spot? Which I think the competition would be Steve Young, Breeze, Josh Allen, ironically, who probably, after everything said and done, is going to take it anyway. Bradshaw and Otto Graham. And Stafford's thrown over 60 ,000 yards, MVP Super Bowl win. It would be interesting if they won again.

28:33Bill Simmons:And remember Elway won the two. He won the first one, but then they won the second one too. And it just completely changed. It tilted how we just saw him after that. And I think that's at stake for Stafford. I personally think he'd have to be the 10th guy on that list if they won the Super Bowl again. I don't know. Where do you stand?

28:51Todd McShay:Who did you say after Breeze? What was the second name?

28:54Bill Simmons:This would be the 10th spot right now. Steve Young, Breeze. Steve Young. Steve Young. Josh Allen, Terry Bradshaw, Otto Graham, I think would be the next five in some order.

29:04Todd McShay:Well, here's what I do know. Orlovsky's always been right about Matthew Stafford. But Orlovsky's also been just a little north of reasonable with it, you know, because they were teammates and all that. So I take what he's saying sometimes and like, yeah, you're right. How special he is. You're right about all of that. But like, we're always going to go a little too far. but I it is it does change a career when you look back on it that second Super Bowl and my gosh is he lined up for it this year I'm fascinated to see how how it plays out with the the health of Aaron Donald can they manage that throughout the year I guess it's the skeptic in me it's like every time we every time we think that there's this super team in the NFL, that they're unbeatable.

29:59Todd McShay:Coming into the year. It's usually dicey. Something happens. And I'm not sitting here trying to send bad juju that way. I love Sean. I love what they've done organizationally. I'm behind everything that they're doing. But I'm worried about that. But specifically to answer your question, I think he is different. I really do. I think Stafford sees the game, and then he's one of the rare ones. Like, Breeze saw the game the way Stafford does. Stafford just has better tools, right? Stafford can make four or five throws in a game that Drew just couldn't, you know? And that's the difference. And then the longevity of it and ascending.

30:50Todd McShay:Yes, ascending because he had a different opportunity and a supporting cast, but ascending even like late years. Like the year he just put up last year, man, it kind of like defies logic, right? Right. And the throws he's still making at that age. And sometimes you see like, you know, I remember like, was it Clemens late in his career? Or like Pedro, like they lost their stuff, but they could still, but it feels like he's still got all of his stuff.

31:18Bill Simmons:It's pretty wild. That's a good analogy for this. Clemens, right? Cullen's had this whole extra six years in the 2000s or five years, whatever it was, past his double prime when he was still, like, you felt like he could go out and start a game three of a World Series and throw seven innings. Yeah.

31:34Todd McShay:And so, I don't know. I think top ten is absolutely in the cards. I mean, fine.

31:43Bill Simmons:Seven is not. No, no. I'm not putting him over the nine.

31:48Todd McShay:And let's see what happens. Josh Allen's got a lot of career left. And Josh Allen's like Josh Allen could, if he, if Stafford ascends to 10, Allen's get the next X amount of years to go steal that spot from them. And now we're looking at 11, but at the end of the day, you're one of the best. It's called 12 quarterbacks to ever play in this game. Right. Pretty good.

32:08Bill Simmons:I'm with you on the Rams. I'm a little skeptical because of the super team thing in the history of it. We talked last week on the pot about the last 30 years. there's really only been one prohibitive favorite that's actually won the Super Bowl. It was the 2018 Patriots who easily could have lost in Kansas City during that run, right? Yeah. Like just a lot can go wrong, especially with a top-heavy roster. And I don't feel... I think Seattle has more talent. I think the Rams' higher-level talent, they're top-tier guys. If you're going to go seven, this top seven versus top seven, the Rams are better.

32:43Bill Simmons:But I think Seattle has more talent. And we talked last week about can you be a nobody believes in us team after you won a Super Bowl? And I kind of feel like Seattle qualifies. Like everyone's just discounting them and pushing them aside and trying to come up with other teams. And meanwhile, they're basically bringing 90 % of their core back, you know, including just about everyone on the defense, which was the reason they won the Super Bowl.

33:09Todd McShay:Yeah, and then I'm going to contradict myself though. And then you envision an NFC championship rematch, right?

33:16Bill Simmons:with Aaron Donald now playing 50 plays in the NFC title game

33:20Todd McShay:and Miles Garrett coming off the edge and two and one damn good corner and another capable corner and that was about the only thing that got them and now how does that look for Bradford you know I don't know

33:33Bill Simmons:yeah let's um let's take a break because we have 25 minutes to rip through college football let's do it this episode is brought to you by PayPal every winning team has that one player who can do it all. The new PayPal app, it's kind of like that. You can shop, pay, earn rewards, manage your account all in one place. Plus find offers, deals, and stackable rewards. PayPal offer also offers purchase protection on eligible items. So you're covered if something doesn't go your way. Download the new PayPal app to get started and see paypal.com slash protection terms. Fun college football season, Ed.

34:13Bill Simmons:I'm obviously invested with UCLA. The draft is going to be incredible. The storylines are all over the place. And just when I thought I couldn't be more excited as the most casual college football fan possible, you come up this week with content saying that 17 guys could go with the first pick in the draft. and I think I think you you made the case and there's all these dudes and I think the biggest case with this is the quarterbacks what we've seen year to year the last few years whatever we think is going to happen in the summer by the time we get to January the things flip so you have you have like you have more and Sellers and Carr Manning, Levitt Chambliss, Mensa and Nico so you think there's Is there a world where all eight of those guys could potentially go number one if the season shifted certain ways?

35:08Todd McShay:I think there's a world in which all eight of them, if they all play to the level I think they're capable of, could wind up being first-round picks. I also think you have to keep in consideration that last year, a lot of people were on Drew Allery. It wasn't for me. Klubnik, I thought Klubnik was going to take another step. He didn't. Nussmeyer got injured all season long. He had a great camp. Klubnick's had a great camp. They both show they still know how to play football. But what's different this year is almost all those guys on the list have an opportunity to go back to school too. So we could re-rack this thing and be talking about 2018, but I think probably I would set the over-under at five for first rounders of this group.

35:59Todd McShay:And when it comes to the first overall, what's interesting about this class, and it hasn't been talked about a lot, like Dante Moore, the Raiders were out sending their brass to games and really looking at this situation. And it was a tough decision. There were people in the organization that favored Dante heavily. And there were people in the organization who really thought Mendoza was the guy. And then Dante Moore makes it a non-decision when he decides to go back to school for another year.

36:29Bill Simmons:Which you liked and appreciated that he did that. I thought it was smart.

36:33Todd McShay:I thought it showed maturity. He was ready enough, but for the money you can go back and make and to give yourself another year of opportunity to grow and to come into this league where we're seeing guys like Bo Nix have success with 63 starts or whatever it is. Guys are coming in with 30, like almost minimum 30 starts. And we're seeing a lot fewer, not in all cases, but we're seeing fewer and fewer of those just dead-on busts, right? And I think a lot of it has to do with experience and maturity, and you've been through some adversity. But this year's class, it can go both ways with all of them.

37:08Todd McShay:And even Dante, he's the easiest one to say, yeah, he's the most likely to be the number one overall pick.

37:17Bill Simmons:Would you say he was CJ Stroud 2.0 or CJ Stroud?

37:21Todd McShay:I think there's so much of CJ Stroud. DJ Stroud?

37:24Bill Simmons:Yeah.

37:25Todd McShay:Yes. I think he's a little bit more willing to run, but definitely pocket passer first. I'm saying a lot of the same things about Dante as I was about Stroud when he came out. It's best pure passer. The touch throws a beautiful ball. It's like the receivers don't have to work to go get it. Understands the offense, distributes it, moves around the pocket. He's a little more willing to run, but neither has this howitzer of an arm. Good arm, can make all the throws. But the big thing for me is I need the big moments. Mendoza's tape last year, Bill, it was up and down. Dante Moore was the better quarterback.

38:05Todd McShay:If you go and you just every single play for both of them, Dante Moore was the better quarterback. But the moments. It was like 28 touchdowns, zero interceptions in the red zone. Highest efficiency, third downs, fourth down. He threw himself into problems late in games. Oregon I mean yeah Oregon Iowa Penn State interceptions one was a pick six against Oregon and then he made the play or the drive or the five plays late in the game that won it so he had those moments where you can see that he's just he's he's wired differently right I love those guys I need I need to see that out of Dante you know like we had that Indiana game we're good to pick six and then he has one good drive and then it falls apart again can't see that out of him this year because you know what like nipping at his heels this Lenora Sellers guy from South Carolina gets a new offensive coordinator this year I'm telling you if six one and a half whatever 230 built he is as fast as he is quick he has got a rocket for an arm he's a he's not an elite passer but he's better than Jalen Hurts was I think he's better than Lamar Jackson was coming out in terms of just pure passing.

39:17Todd McShay:I think he's got a chance to be right there at the end this year, if South Carolina, with Bryles there, Kendall Bryles. And then Darian Mentz is another guy that nobody's talking about. I watch Mentz's tape and I'm like, how big of a gap is there between him and Dante Moore? And now he goes from Duke to Miami as the second best or 1A, 1B in terms of pocket passing. But he's a better runner. And then you got Arch Manning, who, like, if his eyes are in the right place and his mechanics are better and he's able to hit more spots than he was last year, going back this summer and watching him, I forgot how fast he is.

40:00Todd McShay:Like, he's the antithesis of his uncles. That's the thing.

40:06Bill Simmons:He has the Manning stigma. You just assume he's slow because he's related to Peyton.

40:10Todd McShay:Or you assume that he's really like, he must have been in all the camps growing up and he much said, such an understanding of offensive and his feet must be great. No, he's not. He's just kind of a gunslinger who when he takes off running, he just runs with those long strides, runs by a ton of guys. And then CJ Carr at Notre Dame, he's not the biggest. He doesn't have the biggest arm, but I would argue he's got the best processing, smartest quarterback of the entire class. and he is so damn accurate throwing the ball. Uh-oh, we said that about J.J. McCarthy. No, it's different, man. Okay. It's different.

40:48Todd McShay:It's different.

40:49Bill Simmons:People are scarred by J.J.

40:51Todd McShay:I can see that, and maybe that'll be the thing this year. And you know what? They're not playing anyone, comparatively speaking, for the vast majority of the year. I think he could easily win the Heisman, Notre Dame quarterback, 11-12 win regular season. but I think he's wired differently

41:10Bill Simmons:well you had Sowers second at least in your preseason rankings which he is not on the draft boards that's not a consensus pick but it seems like you're the highest on him of anybody I've seen

41:24Todd McShay:well we did a seven part series in the show and doing all these quarterbacks we're kind of pitting them head to head we couldn't do 14 shows one on each And I just kind of assumed going into the year, especially the way Arch finished, that all the talk was who's number one. Is it Arch or is it Dante, right? And then we got done with that, and it was like clearly Dante. Arch can absolutely make those next steps this year. People forget, too. The Mannings like to stay. They like to overstay their welcome in college and be ready for the NFL. So don't allow him being in the 28 draft. and then we got to Carr and Sellers and a couple of the other guys and it was like yeah I don't know it's not only not one you know Arch versus Dante should be the number one guy it's is Arch even in the top three you know and could Arch be the fifth best coming into the year you have him fourth I've got him fourth and I think Sam Levitt at LSU with with Lane Kiffin who's in the you know all the headlines for all the wrong reasons or all the, you know, the off the field reasons with now trying to bring pro players back.

42:37Todd McShay:And I get it. Like, let's blow this whole college thing up to get some leadership in place. But that's a different show. There's, they're very few. Like he's in the one handful of guys in college where you see a player as talented as Levitt, who's more talented than Jackson Dart.

42:55Bill Simmons:Yeah.

42:55Todd McShay:More explosive runner, more dynamic, bigger arm. and you watch Dart and the way he progressed. And then Trinidad Chambliss in one year coming from Ferris State Division II to see the way he progressed. And now you're giving him the most talented quarterback he's worked with since like his USC days and a full year to do that. And I get the schedule is difficult and all that. I think Sam Levitt could be in the conversation for number one overall when it's all said and done. But yeah, I mean, this class is... And by the way, did Chesney give you... Like, what's the update from your boy on Nico?

43:31Bill Simmons:There's a lot of optimism right now in the UCLA side. Nico's like, if you're a new coach taking over a program and you get this guy who's super talented as your QB, who's actually had some success in the past, right? So it's like, it's fixable. Whatever was going on, you can fix it or you can accentuate all the good things about him and put him in the right environment. I mean, I do think he's a Heisman possibility. you know, I think they'd have to go eight and three, nine and two, but as a dark horse, I think, I think any of these quarterbacks as a dark horse, but you know, Fandle has them. I think Fandle has them.

44:07Bill Simmons:Seven plus wins is basically even odds. They're 22 to one to make the college playoffs, but they've been, they keep adding dudes. They just added the James Madison linebacker who's, you know, was the, was the best linebacker in that part of the country last year. So I don't know what to think anymore.

44:23Todd McShay:Can we, can we take a step back and just look like I've, I've followed your, I've gotten to know you well in the last couple of years. When I'm in, I'm all in. I've followed your career. The fact that you're talking to me about a JMU linebacker.

44:37Bill Simmons:Yeah. Coming into the portal.

44:39Todd McShay:It's the Sunbelt Player of the Year.

44:45Bill Simmons:This shit's happening at UCLA. Oh, I love it. But here's the other thing with, you know, and you see this with college football. We just saw it at Indiana. When you go from like, you have a fan base that's basically been in the desert with just canteens and some Fritos. And that's all they've had for 20 years. And now you pull up with like your fucking cheeseburger cart. And you're like, hey, who wants to eat? Everyone's like, oh my God, is this real? Is this happening? So I think that energy from just them potentially being good again. I don't know. That can, we just saw it. It can transform everything.

45:18Bill Simmons:It can lift everybody up and magical shit can happen.

45:21Todd McShay:I don't think people nationally have a clue how good Nico is. I, in fact, I kind of wanted, I didn't want to write him off. I kind of was like, I'll let him, let him maybe a couple of years. We'll revisit Nico. Like that whole thing was ugly at Tennessee. Yeah. Is there parent involvement, the money route? And then I, and then I had a scout call me in, in October. it's like yo i know they're not like national picture you're focusing on the top teams and all that and i know you're getting ready for the this year's draft but when you get a minute go watch what what nico's doing and he's and he's doing it with not a whole lot and then i put in some of the tape then i was like yep all right keep him in mind and then i watched the summer he's got he's got a toughness about him that i didn't expect he's got a an ability to bounce back from mistakes that I kind of was worried about when you think when you kind of build a mental picture of yeah he's kind of going after the money he's a mercenary what's going on but this guy loves ball and you can't hide that on tape and then you watch this like six foot five gazelle when he takes off to run and then you watch the ability at six foot five to make guys miss in small small spaces and then I start to watch some of those NFL throws like leading anticipation, drilling it from one hash to the sideline.

46:45Todd McShay:Like, there's nothing he can't do. Now, his deep ball accuracy was atrocious at Tennessee. They didn't drive it vertically as much last year. I'm interested to see this year if he can improve in that area. But otherwise, like, he's another guy I just, like, don't rule him out when we start talking about, like, fine, if it's not number one overall pick, it was a fun exercise. And it brought a lot of awareness. Like Mendoza was a second round pick for most and he's the number one overall pick. And, and you go back Cam Ward. I talked to a scout in September of his final year, two years ago. And he's like, man, you're like, get off of Cam Ward.

47:22Todd McShay:I've got a fifth on him and he's the number one overall pick. And Jaden Daniels is the number two overall pick. And he was considered like a third or fourth by most scouts. So like we went in six out of the last 10 guys that wound up number one overall picks. they weren't even considered first rounders coming into the year, including Kyler, who was like the number nine overall major league baseball draft pick. He wasn't even going to play in the NFL. So, so it's, it's a fun exercise, but when you start to look at all of these guys and what the potential is for them, and you look at Nico, I don't know if he takes another step with the right supporting cast this year, people are going to have to, they're, they're going to have to pay attention because he's more talented than, the guy that we're all saying is probably going to be the number one overall pick in Dante Moore.

48:09Todd McShay:He's just flat out more talented.

48:11Bill Simmons:Chesney at Holy Cross had this guy Sluka who he used to use, you know, like he would do these design run plays and just would really use his athleticism, which it was a lower competition, so it was helpful. But he kind of reminds me a little bit of what he could do with Nico where use his legs in these really smart legs. Yeah. There's also a couple awesome non-quarterbacks in this draft. Yes. Like Jeremiah Smith, who did, did you see the, what was that? The Caleb Downs was saying, he said in some interview that he thought lamb and pick ends. He was like, no, no, Jeremiah Smith's as good as those guys.

48:52Todd McShay:It's like, whoa, those guys are really good. Someone remind Caleb. He's got to go back to the locker room today too. Those aren't too easy going. I get it. And I actually answered that question. Talent-wise, yeah, he's better than both of them. Now, there's something to being a veteran, having the experience and learning how to get off a press against grown-ass men and all that stuff. But from a talent's perspective, and I feel like, yeah, we did it with Marvin Harrison Jr. I feel a little burned. Honestly, feel a little burn from the Marvin Harrison Jr. hype. And I hear you, but here's the other part.

49:30Todd McShay:Remember the Julio Jones, A.J. Green class 2011? Yeah. And I wound up, it was Julio. He's the best receiver in the class. And the comp for Jeremiah Smith is Julio Jones. That's who he had big. Oh, my God. Get down 4-4 speed downhill, just like a freight train running through you, but then can stop and adjust. but but i think the comp for for cam coleman who's transferring from auburn he goes like the refugee camp there where they don't have a quarterback who can play and winds up with arch manning now at texas um i think it's i think there's some similarities with aj green kind of like that gumby like elasticity oh interesting so you'd have both of those guys ahead of anyone from last year yes i think here's an interesting one i'm not going to name it the nfl has a couple scouting groups let's call it where they pull different scouts like which was national bless one of them i just went back for a reference one of them has and their grades are their their entry-level scouts in a lot of cases i'm not but it matches up with what our grades are in the preseason but just for just so it doesn't feel like we're over hyping it right mentioned i um Like even one of the scouting services that like 20 plus NFL teams belong to.

50:51Todd McShay:I think it was 20, I counted 24 players with grades this year coming into the season higher than the highest grade of a player last year.

51:02Bill Simmons:You can even see it in hoops too, where they'll have the high school class that's coming in and they grade it from zero to a hundred. and sometimes it'll be like 99, 97, 97, 96. And it'll just be just like, wow, that year had more talent than the year after. I don't know why. This football, because we didn't mention Dylan Stewart, the edge from Carolina, and then Leonard Moore, the cornerback from Notre Dame.

51:26Todd McShay:Both of those guys seem like top of the line dudes. He's like Pat Sertan. Just throw him in the mix with those 10 quarterbacks we just talked about. And Colin Simmons after Dylan Stewart, the Texas linebacker. And there's Yonsei Pierre from Alabama at edge, too. So there's three edges. We could have another Khalil Mack, Jadavian Clowney type. Well, he's a better player, but this guy's a better upside.

51:54Bill Simmons:And then two killer offensive linemen, too. This is a nutty draft. So you could have the 10th pick in this draft and get somebody who might be a three-time All-Pro.

52:03Todd McShay:Yes. Yes. You could have the 23rd pick in this draft, and that range could be better. As I just was saying, that range could be better than maybe the seventh overall pick this year.

52:16Bill Simmons:My last question, I'm not going to ask you who's going to win the national championship because you've got to do that with mention your show. For my people, for the people who listen to this, who are both diehard college fans, but also casual, just put it on on a Saturday. Who is the must-watch team this year? or give us like your top three. Give us your bronze, silver, gold. Three teams that are just going to be guaranteeing the entertainment all year. I'm going to have a good time watching their games.

52:43Todd McShay:LSU. I mean, LSU. Are they bronze, silver, or gold? I'm going to go gold. Wow, gold for LSU. And they might wind up with three or four losses. But like Lane Kiffin leaving Ole Miss in the college football playoff, quarterback who he he found as the 246th uh ranked juco quarterback not player quarterback brought him into Ole Miss and Trinidad Chambliss developed him into that game against Georgia that Chambliss had was the best tape outside of maybe Mendoza versus Ohio State that I saw of any quarterback last year and then leaves and the quarterback's like no see Elaine like I'm I'm good here I'm gonna stay here uh early in the season they they play Ole Miss they kick off the season with Clemson.

53:30Todd McShay:They now are trying to get three former NFL players who were in camp, signed contracts, back in. There's another meeting in Baton Rouge, or another hearing in Baton Rouge on Thursday with a judge who's got to determine whether they can block the TRO to allow these players to play. They can't play against Clemson. So, like, to start the season, there's all this mess. And by the way, I think we know how the Baton Rouge judge is going to... Yeah, I wonder.

53:57Bill Simmons:Keep us posted on that trial.

54:00Todd McShay:Then we get the rematch or the matchup against Ole Miss. And then you get Sam Levitt coming in. So LSU and Lane Kiffin is the absolute must-watch.

54:15Todd McShay:Oregon and Texas have the best two rosters. Texas is either going to run this thing and look awesome and win a national championship, or you're already hearing some like splintering and like this player was dismissed from the team and there's some social media posts. So Texas would, for me, as arguably the most talented team in the country, this thing could go, remember last year we had Penn State and Clemson came into the year. We talked about them as like these rosters, you know, they're ranked one, two. Neither of them finished in the top 25. Like Texas is either going to be like right there at the end or this thing could fall apart.

54:57Todd McShay:I get that feeling. And then I'm going to throw, I mean, Signetti, obviously, in Indiana, but I'm going to throw Miami in there. Watching Cristobal get over the hump last year and win some massive games and not have the errors late in the games, like clock management, those sorts of things. Now they upgrade over Carson Beck and bring in this Mensa guy that I don't think people have any respect for nationally. like how good he really is. Just talked about that. And you've got the most explosive dynamic weapon in all of college football, not named Jeremiah Smith and Malachi Tony, who's now going to be a true sophomore.

55:38Todd McShay:And I just, I think with their schedule in the ACC, they're going to be in it late. And I think they're going to keep getting better. I think they're, they're going to be a freight train towards the, I actually, we already gave it out. So I could say here, I I'm picking Miami to win the national championship. Okay.

55:54Bill Simmons:so is that because the other question I was going to ask you is if you had to say somebody was going to be 2026 Indiana who would you pick but it sounds like it's Miami

56:04Todd McShay:yeah let me look at my list here let me see if I can find another I like the Miami pick yeah yeah Miami would be I think that's good Miami would be the pick that would be yeah

56:16Bill Simmons:how many wins for UCLA Bye-bye. 8. Yeah, I think 8-3 seems reasonable to me. And then maybe you get, maybe it's 8-4 because you get to the, you know, some...

56:28Todd McShay:We play 12 in the regular season.

56:30Bill Simmons:This is what I'm talking about. Yeah, I should know that as a casual college football fan.

56:34Todd McShay:JMU transfer linebackers. 8-4.

56:40Bill Simmons:8-4 plus playoffs. The playoff win count as... Like if they got in a bowl or something?

56:47Todd McShay:We'll give you a bowl. we're not going playoffs. It's happening.

56:52Bill Simmons:That's the best bet on the board right now. My guy. All right, McShay. Say hi to Mensch. Is he doing all right? Is he doing all right with Mickey Gasper? The, now the Red Sox come from behind win, all kinds of fun stuff.

57:07Todd McShay:He's doing all right. We just did a little retreat out in Montana. The Menches and the McShays. So we're good to go.

57:14Bill Simmons:Oh, nice. All right. Say hi to everybody. Good to see you. Don't forget about McShay's newsletter, which is excellent. and then the McShay Show, which is kicking into full gear, starting this weekend. Good to see you. Good to see you, bud. Thanks. All right, Diana Taurasi is here. Not only is she one of the great women's basketball players of all time, she was a guest on the last episode of the Grantland Basketball Hour one day before I was basically out at ESPN. So we have a big history. I had to have you on to talk about women's hoops and just what we're watching this year because you were in it forever.

57:47Bill Simmons:You played in the league. What was your first year? Like, 05? 04 was my rookie year. Yeah, straight out of Connecticut. Yeah, 04. And now we have these teams. These are running guns. We're over 100 points all the time. It's guard dependent. I think it's been so much fun to watch. And of course, all the discourse about the WNBA is all the stupid stuff that I have no interest in talking about. I've been marveling at how fun it is to watch women's basketball. What is different? Do you see it? Yeah. Well, I think everything in life is always trendy. And when I got to the WNBA in 04, the game was just super physical.

58:24It was an older league, right? There was a lot of, like there was rookies that were 32, you know, the league had just started. So like it wasn't this young, energetic league. It was like a lot of old veteran players that, you know, played a certain way for a long, long time. And I want to say, I think in 07 is when we hired Paul Westhead, who's the guru of go, who originated the running gun. And for his whole life, it was, well, that can't work. You can't win a championship like that. And he came into the WNBA not knowing anything about women's basketball. But I mean, I don't even think he knew who I was.

58:58He had like zero clue. But he brought this style of play in. And we won two championships in 07 and then in 09 with Corey Gaines. And I think that stayed around for a little bit. Yeah. But people, you know, it's like anything. When they don't know how to teach it, they're not convinced with it, so they go back to their old ways. So there was a long period where it was heavy center dominated. Like, you know, every team had the center. You'd come down and you'd throw it into and bop, bop, bop. And it changed in the last, you know, three or four years.

59:29Bill Simmons:Yeah, Cardoza, her style, and even Asia, who's been the best player in the league for half a decade. But you put your forward at the foul line, she faced up, tried to either do like spin move and get to the basket or shoot. And that was basically everybody's offense. Well, yeah. I mean, I played with BG for 10 years. I mean, every team had two 6-5 stiffs just to match up with her. Right. Right. It was almost like the NBA in like the 50s and 60s. Right. But, you know, you need luck with this stuff. And now we have all of these guards that are coming in. Each year, there's been either one or two.

1:00:01Well, and Bill, you got to, you know, it's like you have to adapt the rules too. You know, for half my career, there was no three seconds in the key. It's not like there was room to get in there and Eurostep. I mean, there was six people clogging the lane. You know, a lot like, you know, 80s and early 90s NBA where there's just no room to operate. So I think with the rule change and the three seconds and no hand checking, I mean, we could go on and on about that stuff.

1:00:25Bill Simmons:Would you have had... What are your stats if you're in your prime in 2026 on the right team? Well, I mean, I averaged, I think, 25 for like five straight years. Right. I mean, free throws are up. Three-point percentage is up. Points per game is up. I think you're in the high 20s, maybe 30. I mean, I think the way it's trending, you're going to see someone average 30 in the next two or three years. And, you know, with the addition of teams, you know how that goes. You add a lot of teams, but there's also now a lot of more bad teams, as we see like in the NBA, where, yeah, people are going to be putting up 42 every night if you're playing against a bad team that has something to compete for.

1:01:07Bill Simmons:Right. And there's three-point shooting is at a whole other level than it was. Well, I mean, we watch the game all the time. And I still have to adjust like, was that a good shot? Are we really just taking that shot now? Are we just going to come down and just take any wide-open shot by any player? I mean, there is that different type of playing now that I think Westhead gave us that a little bit. But, you know, that's not how we grew up playing the game, right? It was reverse the ball. Everyone touches it. Like, no one's touching the ball now. right well do you think that is that a regular season thing because i wonder in the playoffs when the stakes are higher are we going to see people pull up from the arc and take 30 foot threes in the fourth quarter i'm going to say no no you know in the playoff everything gets tighter right everything you know they let you play a bit more physical um possessions are less you know teams aren't turning it over as much so you're not playing in transition i mean and i think those are the teams i mean coach ramer would always say it i think the last two and a half months of practice going into the NCAA tournament, all we worked on was half-court offense.

1:02:09He goes, that's the only thing that'll win you a championship. You can talk about defense and rebounding, but if you can't execute in the half-court, you're not going to win.

1:02:19Bill Simmons:I mean, that was the Knicks. We just watched it in the playoffs with them. Came down to execution late. I mean, I've never seen a team be outplayed four straight games to be up 3-1. I've never seen that in my life. what was the luckiest championship you won did you have a lucky one or did you oh were all them the right championship but did you have one where it's like man some stuff went right for us i mean in 2007 that's when we were just uh you know we were all in our mid-20s we had no clue what we were doing you know it was our first first year in the playoffs we get to the finals and we're playing the detroit shock you know bill lambier's the coach it's swing cash Katie Smith, Tweety Nolan, Cheryl Ford.

1:03:00I mean, this is like, it's like bad boys, bad girls 2.0. Like, they just won a championship. Two, like, distinct ways of playing basketball. You know, they were ground and pound, like you said, possession, rebound, throw it up, go get it. And we were the opposite. We were like, how many threes can we get up? You know, we played this, you know, fake matchup zone, which would give a fit. And there was no business winning that game five in Detroit. But for some reason, you know, when it's your year, it just happens.

1:03:31Bill Simmons:Sometimes it's your year. That's what happened to the Knicks. Sometimes you need a seven-foot-five guy to throw the ball off somebody's back with nine seconds left. I mean. A crazy tip-in and a couple things need to happen. I mean, who would have thought Jalen Brunson would be this much of a problem on the court? And I mean it not that we didn't know he was a great player, But at a certain point, I was like, can anyone guard this man? Right. No one could guard him. And it seemed like he was gaining strength and getting stronger as the playoffs went along, which should usually be the opposite. They played like 97 games and he seemed...

1:04:07Bill Simmons:It honestly reminded me a little of Messi in the World Cup, how when you watch Messi, he was like 38, and he's obviously one of the smaller guys. But he's so freaking strong and so low to the ground and just keeps coming and coming and coming and picking his spots and he just figured it out. Well, and there's nothing like mental fortitude. I mean, that Knicks team was on a mission. And, you know, I'm a Laker fan. I know, you know, we're... Oh, sorry. But, you know, it's not... It wasn't hard to root for that team. Like, they were all nice guys. Like, Jalen Brunson's a great guy. Mikael, Ja. I mean, they were just guys you wanted to root for because they just played hard.

1:04:45And even Cat, I didn't hear him complain about touches once. He just wanted to win.

1:04:50Bill Simmons:well that's what happens when you haven't won one you hit a point Doc Rivers always loves talking about this you hit that point where everybody's got to sacrifice something and as long as people are willing to do it it gets harder if you've already won and you have to come back the next year and start sacrificing again when you've already done it that first time you got to do it yeah I always feel I laugh when I hear the word sacrifice because you know before every season coaches will be like we have to sacrifice you sacrifice but as long as that one person And, oh, wait, I have to... I thought you meant them.

1:05:22You want me to sacrifice? No, no, no. I thought you meant them.

1:05:25Bill Simmons:I'm not giving up shots. You mean me? No, not me, coach. They should sacrifice some minutes and some open looks. But, yeah, that Knicks team was fun to watch. It was nice to see a team win in that fashion because you hadn't seen it in so long. Team ball. Unselfishness. You know what? Define the odds. It was fun. But, like, what team... Even I liked it. I know. what team that is great doesn't play like that? And that's why when these teams just put up with, you know, one or two players doing everything, I'm like, that's not sustainable. It's not going to work. Well, it was your guy Kobe, right?

1:06:02Bill Simmons:Well, in game seven, 2010, he's having the worst game of his career and then had to figure out how to help the team somehow and didn't have it. Well, you forget sometimes you need someone to pull you through the hole. You know, I think sometimes when you're the best player, there's this notion of you you have to do it in the big moments all the time but like it's usually someone else that like you know pulls you through the hole and then yeah I don't want to talk about Kobe and Jalen Brunson and you know Tatum but you know even that Celtics championship I mean look at all those guys that stepped up that you wouldn't have thought would be the person in those finals right that's why I don't I know they have to give the finals MVP and it's helpful like for somebody like me that loves the history of the game it's a good snapshot of who mattered But, you know, now they added the conference MVP.

1:06:50Bill Simmons:And I really do feel like it screwed up the Celtics a little bit because Jalen won both, but Tatum was the best guy on the team. And then we kind of never recovered from that. That happens a lot, actually. In 2007, it's funny. Kappy Pondexter got the WNBA Finals MVP. I mean, she deserved the 100%. But it happens where teams that you think that the Asia Wilsons would always win the MVP and the Brianna Stewart's and all the great players. But sometimes it's only that five, seven game stretch where that's all that counts. This is what happened to Tim Duncan. It happened to him in 07. I'm like, if you're the best player, I'm giving you the finals MVP.

1:07:34Bill Simmons:Unless this is so glaringly obvious that somebody else should have won. I'm giving it to the best player. Always. I mean, like even when LeBron was probably always the best player in every series he played in. Just give it to him. He's the best player. That's what it is. It's not the best winner. When did you become friends with Kobe? So, you know, we had some touch and goes in LA early in my high school years, different events. You know, in 96, it was, you know, he was on the Lakers and I was a freshman in high school. I mean, that's insane. And then it was mostly more on the Olympic teams, that Redeem team in 2008.

1:08:13is where we practiced a lot together before and after, the hotel, the bus rides. I think that's when we really hit it off, the way we kind of attacked the game.

1:08:23Bill Simmons:Well, you're both sociopathic competitors. You probably loved each other. We're both addicts. And we kind of fell in love with each other because of that. Because we understood each other. Like when other people thought, oh, you can't do it that way. Well, then you can do it this way and you can be like everyone else. That's how we would look at it. What was the best thing you learned from him? I mean, his mental strength. I mean, we could talk about the work ethic. Yeah. But when I would watch him play, that was the only thing that mattered on earth for those two hours. And if half the players that play basketball could have that, they would fall in love with the game.

1:09:10But they can't get to that point because it's really hard.

1:09:14Bill Simmons:Yeah. Yeah, and the work ethic, because you see it, you always hear this story from the Olympics when they put all the dudes together and the younger guys are with the older guys who actually know the routine and what to do and they're kind of like, right. Wait, you're getting up at five in the morning to go climb the Versa Climber? What's happening? And you emulate it. Yeah, well, at a certain point, we're like, where's Kobe? You know, because we'd all get together at the lobby and the Nike suite and we look up. He was always gone. He was always at the gym. He had his own driver and he'd go to the gym three hours before and then he'd leave three hours afterwards.

1:09:46I mean, the guy was just insane. He would find a gym. You know, we were in Beijing, found a gym everywhere we went. Just didn't matter. He was going to find a hoop.

1:09:55Bill Simmons:I mean, LeBron's like that. Brady's like that. Jordan was like that. I mean, it seems like you can't turn it off after your career ends because it's like you were so driven like that. All right, now what do I do? Well, I think when you get, you know, in those later years in your career, it's actually the work that keeps you coming back. You get addicted to the daily routine. It's almost like it's something that you need to function. And, you know, was I always a worker like that my whole career? No. Like when you're young, you don't understand that. You know, you can just get up, get on the court, you don't have to stretch, lace them up.

1:10:30After, you know, the game's over, you do whatever you want. And as you get older, you start learning these routines and these patterns that almost become more important in the game. right the structure of how to repeat a really good effort over and over and then there's nobody learns that till later well yeah well because then there's the physical part where you actually need it you actually need you actually need the two hours of prepping to i don't know do a shoot around right and then i mean my daughter my daughter's a division three soccer player she's

1:11:00Bill Simmons:a senior and it wasn't until kind of this off season that i feel like she totally got it and she's like, I want to have an awesome season. I'm working out every single day. And even like she had an internship. She's like, I have to get up at six o 'clock to work out or else I'm not going to be able to work out. It was the first time. But that's it. I'm sure LeBron's like that too, no matter where he is. I got to get up. I got to work. Without a doubt. And I think that's when you really become comfortable with yourself is when you have an internship and if you don't work out at six, you're not going to work out.

1:11:32Bill Simmons:So you got to do it. You have to do it. how when when you retired did you feel like you had more years left or you stayed too long or you left at the exact right time no i think i just i hit the nail uh right on the head i probably played a couple more years at the level i was playing i feel like i you know but at that point there comes these little moments where you rather be somewhere else right you know i mean you mean counter you missed out on some of the great stuff that's happened the last two years. I feel like you're one of the people that built the league and kept it alive. You know, and now it's actually like has real momentum.

1:12:10Yeah, but you know what? I feel like I gained all the things that they'll never have. Like what? Like world travel. I feel like I can, at this point as an adult, I can be in any room with any human being on earth and be able to function. I actually live a normal life for as much as, you know, as many things that's come my way. I don't walk around with a bodyguard. I go to the grocery store. You know what I mean? Like, I haven't become a person that can't function in normal life. And I actually kind of love it. I don't take that for granted. And, you know, and going forward, it's all the things we wanted, right?

1:12:54More coverage, more money. But with all that, you know, it comes a different type of lifestyle that all these women are living differently now. After games, we would all get together and go to a restaurant and have dinner. Now it's just become you play, you get on a plane, you fly somewhere, which is great for performance, but for lifestyle-wise, I don't know how much fun they're having. Well,

1:13:19Bill Simmons:when you have more success, that brings scrutiny and backlash. More money, more problems. And then people using you. I always call it the volleyball because people something, they'll just drift in. They just want to hit the volleyball back and forth with what they're arguing about. And it'd be like, oh, let's do it with WNBA. And they just bring it in. They hit it back and forth. They don't even watch the games. Well, it's been funny with the WNBA because it's been a lot of new media, which has been great. Obviously, this is what we've always wanted. And I've always said this where for a long time, it was always fluffy, positive media.

1:13:53And that's not real, right? You have to find people that counterpoint and make these arguments. It's what we've always wanted. But, you know, it's a lot of people who haven't followed the league in a long time. So they say things without context and there's backstories to everything. I mean, you know, you can't make a comment about the NBA without the last 30 years of knowledge that you know. Yeah. Because each thing kind of is the result of something that happened maybe 10 years ago, whether it's, you know, CBA or what happened with the team or players, there's a lot of backstory. And, you know, I think the more we acknowledge that and the more we study that, well, then, you know, the commentary can become educated and a little bit more, you know, intelligent instead of, you know, so visceral, like a foul.

1:14:38I mean, it's basketball. Everyone fouls the shit out of each other. You know what I mean? Like, it's, yeah, that's what it is. You're trying to score. I'm trying to stop you. Yeah.

1:14:50Bill Simmons:Just wait till the playoffs, whichever guard, really good guard on whatever team gets to the last four, final four, whatever. Olivia Miles, when she's going to the basket, it's going to be a little different. Well, we know this, though. And I think as fans, we have to go back to the competition part. I think that is the one thing that, you know, with all the rule changes, and it's kind of strange. It's like the more money you make, you know this, they try to shelter you a little bit more. I mean, we were making pennies and we would run through a wall. Hamstrings, back injuries, broken hands. It was like, why are we doing this?

1:15:33We're not making any money.

1:15:35Bill Simmons:You left. You left and nobody blamed you. You were like, why am I doing this? I'll go make more money somewhere else. This isn't worth it. The last time we chatted, I was in my living room in Russia. Right. And we were talking about the Warriors. That was the last time. Yeah, and I was in Russia, and I was making the money that I wanted to make. Well, that's why I think people actually care about this and want to see the league continue to prosper. When they do stuff like when they did the three expansion teams, which I hated. Yeah. I just don't think there's enough talent for it. You mentioned how, like, yeah, the points are going to be up because you're going to have nights where you're just playing a shit team.

1:16:11Bill Simmons:But when you overexpand too fast, that's what happens. Well, I mean, it happens in every league, right? Every league. We have 80 years of history. I mean, half the nights I put on, you know, NBA League Pass, and you can give me front row tickets to 99 % of those games, I wouldn't go. Right. I mean, there's a lot of bad teams. And we talk about, and I'll go back, we talk about there's not enough talent for the rosters. There's not enough talent to coach. How about coaches? And how about officials? Well, that's another conversation. Yeah. What league doesn't have bad officiating? I mean, you watch the NFL and you're, you know, oh, that's a terrible flag.

1:16:55You know, the only sport that has it right is tennis because it's robots.

1:17:00Bill Simmons:Do you, do anybody jump out out of these younger people that you're watching? Like, wow, that's one of the most special women's basketball players I've ever seen. Well, I think Olivia Miles is a special talent. I've been trying to tell people. So she's, you know, I think she was a little under the radar because she did leave Notre Dame and she went to TCU, which was a little bit of a smaller school. But, you know, this kid is doing stuff that we, you know, she has Kyrie-like handles. She can shoot the basketball. She's, you know, she can get in the lane. And I always said, if you can shoot and you can pass, you can play forever.

1:17:39So when I watch her, when I watch Paige, you know, when I watch Paige play, I see the complete package on and off the court.

1:17:48Bill Simmons:On Olivia, you can see it, how she's defended, which I think is always a good, a good litmus test of how good somebody is. You're watching. She has a head of steam. Yeah. And the people are going backwards and she has everybody on a rope. And then you mentioned Kyrie earlier. she has that Kyrie move when he sticks his right arm all the way out and holds that kind of ahead of the defender and is able to put the layup off the glass with a nice soft one. She just has it. She's tremendous. And I mean, to be put in a position where, you know, you go to a team that, you know, they have everything, you know, roster-wise.

1:18:23I mean, what is an incredible opportunity for her to be on a team that is expected to win a championship? Obviously, we know what, you know, their coaching staff's like and, you know, the pedigree of players that they have. I mean, it's the perfect scenario for her to really, you know, be in the driver's seat in this league for like the next 10 to 12 years. And then when I see Paige, I just see, I see everything with Paige. You know, a lot of times you have the player that can control the locker room, necessarily doesn't have the talent to, you know, have that weight when they say things to their teammates.

1:18:57She has both. I mean, she walks into a room and everything just changes everything just changes when Paige is in the room and you can see it with her team

1:19:07Bill Simmons:I think that's a dangerous first round team oh I watched a game when they beat Indiana like 10 days ago or whatever and they just, both guards were going and then Rike got really going that's kind of a nightmare matchup it reminds me of in the mid-90s in the playoffs when it'd be best of five and you could just go against the wrong you play like the Suns and all of a sudden you're down 2-1 in a series because two of their guards got hot. But I wouldn't want to play them. And I got to say, I really like the way Indiana's playing too. It felt like all the outside stuff was suffocating, especially Kaitlin.

1:19:40Bill Simmons:It just didn't seem like she was having fun playing basketball. And then the last month or so, I keep saying they remind me of those Nash Suns teams where they just go, go, go. Everything's built around her. They have two awesome guards. I don't know who's going to win the title, honestly. I don't know. But if Kaylin and Kelsey keep playing like this, they're going to be the hardest out in the playoffs. I mean, they're going to be so hard to guard in the playoffs. I mean, what Kaylin doing right now is just unheard of. It's kind of ridiculous when you think about what she's doing. But, you know, I've always said this about her, and I've always admired this about her.

1:20:15And you alluded to it. There's just so much stuff around her. But the minute she walks onto the court, it all goes away for her. you know it kind of all goes away and there's a different thing that drives her on the court i'm not sure what it is but man when she gets going and the numbers that she's putting up um and and and doing it in winning right like that's the whole point is to do it to make your team better and she does it every single night um you know and then and now that we get to watch them all play on on the national team so it'll be fun all right so you're not gonna believe it but

1:20:51Bill Simmons:I didn't agree with the world championships decision either. I thought they had, you have so much momentum from the season. You're just stopping. Should I call Sue? Should I tell Sue? Does she agree? Well, I mean, it's funny. We've never, we've never, we've never had a break for world championships. It's only been for Olympics. This is the first time. I know this is the first time we've ever done it. I know it's, you know, but that's the life, you know, the WNBAs always lived. We've always had to live in these, you know, different worlds where other things take precedent. People miss training camp.

1:21:21We got to stop the league for the Olympics. And now it's happening again for FIBA. You know, I think we're coming to a point where the WBA will finally take priority. And, you know, hopefully soon. But yeah, I hate the break. It's the worst. You know, it's terrible. It's terrible for the teams that come back and don't have shit to play for. And it's terrible for teams who are trying to get to the third, to the fourth seed. You know, like it's just it's tough. around. It's kind of something we've always done. And, you know, as a player for a long time, you kind of just, whatever jersey you put on, that's what you do.

1:21:58You immerse yourself for that two, three weeks with USA Basketball and then the minute you get back to Vegas, Indiana, Dallas, Phoenix, put that jersey back on and you give it a go.

1:22:10Bill Simmons:I don't love it. Certain teams had momentum. Certain teams were losing momentum. I don't know. Because there's a little rock, paper, scissors with the league this year. It's been fun to gamble on, actually. But Golden State's like the defensive team. Right. Vegas has Asia, but the guard's a little weak. Indiana's super fun up and down to play. Dallas is like the wild card. And kind of who plays who. And then the Liberty, I don't... They've been so banged up all year, I don't know what to make of them. Well, I mean, who would want them to play them as the eighth seed? That's kind of what we just talked about.

1:22:43That's a crapshoot, too. You play New York as the eighth seed? I mean, what a reward for being the one seed.

1:22:51Bill Simmons:Can we talk about this Asia Wilson thing really quickly? Mm-hmm. I don't like it because you were my goat. But if she wins five straight MVPs, I don't know what to do with this information now. I mean, you do what you do with it. I mean, to be MVP five times. That's unbelievable. It's ridiculous. Nobody does that. No one does it. I mean, who did it? Did Dream even have five? No. Nobody in the NBA has done this. Not one NBA player, no NFL players, nobody. Nobody does this. You know, I mean, how could you not say she's a go if she wins five in a row? I mean, even with four in a row, it's kind of like no one's ever done that either, the WNBA.

1:23:27You know, and to do that and win, you know, I think that's been the most impressive thing is she's carried. Obviously, early, they were just loaded. They had just tremendous young talent. And now, you know, she's had to carry a big load of it. But the thing with Asia that's so impressive, I've never seen a player. And I'm always, I always have these deep conversations with other basketball minds that I trust. And I'm like, you are who you are. There's not a lot of players that, you know, I met earlier on in my career that just became a great passer, a great decision maker or a great shooter. Yeah, you can improve a little bit, but usually who you are is who you are.

1:24:03When I saw Asia in college, I would have never thought she would have got to this point, to be honest. And that's just a credit to her being in the gym. And, you know, people always say, well, you know, during the summer, I want to add this. She actually did it. Every summer, every offseason, she's added something. That's really hard to do.

1:24:21Bill Simmons:And when people are like, oh, she could do this, this or this. And they guess wrong every time. And she just either goes by them or shoots over them and just gets whatever shot she wants every single time. Well, when I say someone's going to average 30 or maybe even 35, it's going to be her. I mean, no one. Literally, she is a matchup nightmare for every single team. There's maybe like two or three players in the whole league that could, you know, make it tough for her. Yeah, I don't even know. Is it a smaller person who's like physical? Is it somebody with more size? So she can't, I don't even know what the answer is.

1:24:53Yeah, I mean, I guess it's multiple. You know, coaches love that. We can't give them a steady diet. I don't know.

1:25:00Bill Simmons:I would try to run them up and down and get in a shootout with them would be my move. Well, you know, and a lot of times when you're the best player, you usually guard the shittiest player on other teams. So, you know, it's not like you'd get her in foul trouble either. So you think, it sounds like you think Minnesota is going to win. I mean, Minnesota's strong. If Fee comes back from this world championship at the level that she's used to playing, which is pretty much unstoppable on the court with her and Miles and the way Kayla McBride shoots the ball. I mean, that's a tough, tough team to beat.

1:25:30I always judge it.

1:25:32Bill Simmons:Yeah, I always judge it by the shots in the last four minutes. Do I like the shots you're getting? Is this what I always did with the NBA? I always liked their shots. I always feel like they have all these options late. And if worse comes to worse, Miles would just go buy somebody and create something. Well, I mean, we always said there's nothing like having shooting and passing on the court. You know, if you have an abundance of that, you can run whatever play you damn want. Because the game of basketball, all it's about is getting the advantage. Like you said, you just need an advantage somewhere to create.

1:26:00And a lot of teams don't have a lot of those players. So the offense gets really hard. And, you know, I mean, we see that with the NBA where, you know, there's teams that just can't get good shots at the end of the games.

1:26:10Bill Simmons:All right. So you're in this UConn documentary that Apple did. And Gino is a big piece of it. Polarizing guy. If you're just watching from afar, very easy to come to the conclusion. I don't like that guy. Because annoying. Yet everybody that plays for him loves him and defends him like they would like their uncle or their dad or whatever. So make the Gino defense for me. It's funny because I watched the documentary, obviously. And I wasn't sure. Because, you know, sometimes when you watch things, you don't always get the full story. And in a documentary, you can't always tell the full story. You only have a certain amount.

1:26:43And it's funny because I watched him and I liked him even more. So that makes me a little bit of a psycho. He's a mastermind, Bill. He doesn't have to say one. I mean, if you think about the three hours of the documentary, how much basketball did they talk to? Not a lot, right? It's not like they were breaking down plays and like late game, you know, scenarios. I mean, this man just knows how to get you to do things that a normal person wouldn't do.

1:27:14Bill Simmons:And everyone stays loyal to him after. No matter what happened. And it's funny because there's people in the documentary that didn't have a great relationship with him, you know, throughout those four years. And to be honest, the first two and a half years, I mean, we would just go at it. We would just butt heads all the time. because he just will not, he will press you until there's nothing left. And then you have to build yourself back up. And then you have to figure out if you really want to be here and if you really want to do it. And he was like that from day one to the last day I was at Connecticut.

1:27:52Bill Simmons:There was a documentary about Tennessee and Pat Summitt in the early 2000s, I want to say. I think it was on HBO. And it was a big template for what we wanted to do for 30 for 30 because it was like, we're going in. You're going to learn about Pat Summitt and this team. And it was so riveting. But my big takeaway, I don't even know if it's online anymore, was just how intense it was day to day with her and the players and the emotions and the games to end. People come in, they're like sobbing. It was like game 16 of a season. Like six girls sobbing around their walkers and she would come in and it was just fascinating or watch somebody with that much control over their universe.

1:28:31Bill Simmons:And it seems like he's the same way. Oh, absolutely. I remember watching that one, actually. Remember, she iced her ankle for like 48 straight hours because she slept in the locker room. Yeah. And it was the first time I ever saw anything like that. I was like, holy shit. Yeah. This is intense. You know what? There's a time in your life, I think, where you can handle that. and it's definitely when you're in college. Right. You know, when you're young and dumb and you don't know any better and you're searching for things that you can hold on to to make you a better player, better teammate, or whatever it may be.

1:29:12But I think those days are over. I don't think you can do that anymore. So it means even more. Like, I think when you watch a documentary like that, you're watching something that I don't think you can do anymore. It doesn't exist anymore. I mean, you definitely can't do it in the pros, right? Like, can you even do 10 % of that anymore?

1:29:32Bill Simmons:You guys are making 30, 40, 50, 60 million a year. And the moment they're unhappy, they can just push their way out. Get out. Get out. That's why we have so much coaching upheaval every year in the NBA. I think Spolstra is the oldest. Spolstra is, I think, the oldest coach now. The longest tenured. Yeah. Kerr's second. And Joe Mazzulla might be in the top five. And it's really funny because you actually, before you go there, he walks into your living room and he tells you exactly what he's going to do. And you're kind of like, okay, that sounds good, which sounds terrible if you really think about it.

1:30:05And then you get there and it's boot camp. It's hard. Everything's hard. Every single time you walk into the gym, it is mentally and physically taxing. There was no day where you would walk in and you would let your guard down. you were always in fight or flight like that was just that was the type of environment that he created

1:30:30Bill Simmons:does it bother you that UConn women's basketball just in general is regarded in America the same way kind of the Duke men's team has become where you're like the team people root against because you've had so much success that's just your lot now you're the Yankees you're Duke basketball like you're the Patriots of Belichick you're just in that mix now I mean I guess that's what happens when you win a lot Yeah. You know, everyone loves the underdog story until you become the person that wins all the time. And then it's like, is this fair for the sport? Is parody better? No one ever liked basketball when there was parody.

1:31:05I liked basketball when it was Duke, when it was UConn, when it was the Bulls, you know, when it was the Patriots, when it was the Lakers in the 2000s. That's when I loved sport the most. You know, the Yankees, when you have these dominant, amazing teams. And it's people, I think people take for granted how hard it is to do that. How hard it is to get all those players on the same page. I mean, we've seen all these super teams that just explode because it takes a certain character of a certain personality, a certain coach.

1:31:36Bill Simmons:And you don't have to be best friends either. Right? Brady and Belichick were six Super Bowls together. It's okay that they're not going to go vacationing in Lake Tahoe. Well, I think the whole being friends with your coach thing is a crock of shit. like I think that's what's made you know the environment of coaching and players these days so up and down you want to be my friend you want to be the like I don't need a friend I need a coach you know I have friends I have friends I have friends I go and talk to and talk shit with like that was the one thing with the coaches that I had to play for that always brought out the best in me we had a personal relationship but we weren't friends they weren't worried about my well-being, you know, every single day.

1:32:20I mean, that was the beauty of Coach Westhead. Coach Westhead would walk into practice, we'd practice for two hours, and then we wouldn't see him ever again. We would get on the plane together, we'd get off the plane, and then we would never see him again until shoot around. You know, there wasn't this, let's go get coffee, let's go talk about the game plan. There was a separation of church and state.

1:32:43Bill Simmons:I wonder, like, if this is part of the social media era and just in general, well-being and all the mental health stuff that's happened over the last 10 years and awareness for all that. And just coaches screaming at players just doesn't seem like it fits in anymore. Well, I mean, you know, back then you just walk into the gym and you practice. Now, you know, the last two or three years in the WNBA, you know, coach there. So D, how do you feel from a scale of one to 10? I'm like, what the fuck? I'm fucking 42. I feel like shit. Leave me alone. leave me alone what are you talking about what are you talking about I don't want to talk about my feelings and it's almost worse because all they do is talk about the feelings that they do have you know it's like more feelings and more all these feelings and you know I've always been you know old Italian family just shut up and do the work figure the feelings out later like you know and I don't think you can do that anymore because you know once you let the genie out of the bottle and put her back in.

1:33:45Bill Simmons:What do you do competitively now to get your fix? So I love... It's got to be something. Tennis and golf are my go-tos. I love tennis. I played tennis as a little kid and I always loved it. And then I just... Basketball got in the way of that. And then I love to golf. It's the two things I really do enjoy. Tennis. Doubles or singles? Singles. Singles? Singles, yeah. Head to head. Mono a mono. I don't need, you know, like I've played a team sport for a long time. I just want to do it with me. I don't want to worry about someone else's feelings. Forehand or backhand? Forehand. Backhand, I need. Forehand.

1:34:23Bill Simmons:So you're loading up on the forehand. Western forehand grip and I just let it go. Actually, yeah. I wish there was like a celebrity tennis tournament. I bet it would be fun to watch you in that one. I think the U.S. Open, John McEnroe does one every year. I'm still not where I want to be to play in it. kind of like in golf where they go to Lake Tahoe and getting there. All right, Dana Taurasi. A pleasure, as always. You're the best. Will you come back during the playoffs? Always. Let's do it. All right. You're going to watch, right? You know, that's another thing. Maybe. That's another thing. Sort of.

1:34:57You know what happens when you retire, Bill? It's like you watch the game and all I see is mistakes.

1:35:03Bill Simmons:Oh, you become one of those people. Yeah, I know. I know. That's why I like to watch tennis and soccer because I can watch it as a fan. I'm still in that threshold where I watch it and I'm still watching players I played against. So maybe another year. But yeah, I'll come on with you, Bill. Always. All right. Good to see you. A pleasure as always. Thanks. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Todd and Diana and Gahau and Eduardo. Don't forget, Rewatchables, Aliens is up and I'm going to be back on my podcast on Thursday. hopefully with a special guest who comes once a year. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed.

1:35:42Bill Simmons:We'll see if it happens. Anyway, see you Thursday. See you Thursday. On the wayside On the proofs I never

1:36:28Bill Simmons:ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867.